00:00:00
This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.
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Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. When a charming neurosurgeon rode into Frontier Town
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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room
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and became sought after by patients. He promised to heal them. Instead, he left a trail of broken bodies.
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This is a story of greed, betrayal, and a fight for justice. Listen to Dr. Death the Cowboy wherever you get your podcasts
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or binge the entire series right now only with Audible. Goodbye. The best parts of summer aren't just places,
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Bring the feeling of summer home. Discover the collection at Pura.com. Goodbye. my favorite murder
00:01:36
hello hello and welcome to my favorite murder the 300th episode that's karen kilgariff oh that's georgia hardstar thank you this is three freaking
00:01:57
This is their 300th episode. How many times can we say it? What does it even mean?
00:02:04
I don't know. It's just an arbitrary number in the world. It certainly isn't our 500th, I'll tell you that.
00:02:12
But it feels much different than our 200th. It does. I mean, any of these little milestones, like in January, it'll be six years.
00:02:20
That feels like a, you know. That feels like a biggie. A hugegie. If you think about it in terms of every episode is a day, we're coming up on our full first year of episodes in a row.
00:02:32
Right. 365. Sure. Okay. I mean, then maybe that gives some kind of context to the number.
00:02:40
Yeah. Yeah. But it kind of feels like turning like 44 or something. Where you're like, okay.
00:02:47
Sure. Great. No, that's good. I like another year for sure, but I don't. But it's not like 40.
00:02:54
You know, we're not getting a facelift yet, but we certainly didn't just graduate from high school.
00:02:59
That's for sure. This podcast is in its mid 20s, you know, but it had a serious drug problem for a while and it kicked it.
00:03:08
And we're all proud of it. It's been strong. It's been strong. But it's also been pretty fucked up.
00:03:14
Yeah. It had to move home a couple of times and restart its life. Who hasn't? Oh, truly.
00:03:19
And then it like got back on its feet. It's fucking, you know. Living its best life.
00:03:25
We've had a full apartment. We've had a pod loft. Yeah. We've had our own studio.
00:03:31
Yeah. And then we had the quarantine journey. We forgot live shows. We also had live shows all the time.
00:03:38
Yeah. And now we have nothing but Karen's room in Karen's house. I wouldn't say we have nothing.
00:03:45
That isn't nothing at all. It's not nothing. It's so much. It's so much. I mean, that's the thing about all of these milestones.
00:03:52
every single time is like, what the fuck happened? We started a podcast for fun.
00:03:59
And now it's like the biggest career we've ever had. It's we start a podcast for fun as two people who weren't even sure what the podcast was
00:04:08
going to how it was going to go. Yeah. I was just talking recently, and maybe it was on the last episode of this podcast about
00:04:16
the time that I tried to do the Toronto Rapist, the Carla Homolka, whatever the rapist name is.
00:04:24
The Ken and Barbie couple rapists. And I thought I was going to be able to tell you that
00:04:30
story off the top of my head. That's what we thought we were doing. You can go back and listen to that absolute
00:04:36
failure of an episode on my part with no paper in my hands. Well, you also were working on Baskets
00:04:42
at the time, right? Talk Show, the Game Show. Talk to the game show. And something else.
00:04:48
And some other show. Yeah. So we didn't know yet what was going to happen in our lives.
00:04:53
There was a, it was like podcasting was a thing that I had done in the past that was easy.
00:04:59
Because you just get together and chit-chat. Yeah. But then we entered into the world of true crime podcasting, which is an entirely different beast.
00:05:08
Right. As we now understand. Yeah. Well, at 300, I'll just say that this has changed my life so incredibly that, I mean, I never expected my life to look like what it looks like right now. And I'm so fucking grateful, grateful to you, grateful to our listeners, grateful to Stephen for coming along with us.
00:05:29
Yep, same. And I just can't, I can't believe how lucky we got. I mean, it is kind of funny to think about if you were a listener and hey, what's up day one listeners?
00:05:42
I wish I'd we had a list of your names because we used to meet people like at live shows and stuff.
00:05:47
It'd be like day one random scrolling through the podcast listener. But we definitely have those people Imagine the journey they been on I mean it so fun And I think that true in a lot of the people who listen from the beginning and are like it so crazy to hear you guys be like we have 5 people in the Facebook group
00:06:09
Now we have millions and millions of fucking downloads. It's crazy. I think the ultimate sign of success is we had to shut that fucking Facebook group down.
00:06:19
It got problematic and that's how you know. It got trolled out of control. That's right. And it wasn't a quaint, happy, fun, safe place to be anymore for anyone.
00:06:31
For anyone. No, no. That's where the fan cult exists. I mean, that's kind of the thing of like, as things changed, as things grew, there was just all kinds of lessons that we had on tape, like recorded for everyone to hear.
00:06:46
Yeah, for sure. Pretty insane. What lessons await us? I mean, what in a month and a half and when it's six years, what are lessons are we going to learn in that little period of time?
00:06:56
You know what? Start journaling about the lessons and then we're going to read our lessons.
00:07:00
OK. Year six anniversary. Yes. I feel like the biggest thing that this podcast shows is that you just got to fucking try something and do it and have fun with it.
00:07:11
And good things will hopefully come from there. And do not expect perfection or make that some kind of a qualifier before you do something.
00:07:20
Yeah. As two people who were insanely far from it and thought it was kind of no big deal.
00:07:25
Yeah. To start with, we then had to grapple with the idea that now we're exposed as being intensely
00:07:31
imperfect. Yeah. What are we going to do now? And I'll just say for myself, I think I can speak for you these days, but right now I'll
00:07:38
say for myself, it's okay to fuck up and it's okay to be imperfect because that's what evolution
00:07:47
is about. That's what actually learning and growing is about. Yes. And that's the part
00:07:51
that you have to pay attention to is the point is to learn and grow. If you insist on perfection
00:07:55
from yourself and everyone, you're never going to be happy. And then not learning and growing
00:08:00
from your mistakes is just this huge miss. It's just huge missed opportunity for you to become a
00:08:06
better person but you also have to be selective about who you listen to and why you're listening
00:08:10
to them yes looking at you twitter the looking at you all of social media but you know it's like
00:08:17
we have been and we joke about that but we've actually been insanely lucky because uh 99 point
00:08:26
I'll say 8% of all of you listening are some of the most lovely, generous, open and cool people that we could hope to have a connection with.
00:08:43
Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say it is really you mentioned live shows. It is. We are. We're sad to not be doing them yet. Yeah. And we hope to soon. But that really is. I mean, on top of the fact that we've all been locked in our houses for a year and a half or more. That's the one thing I really I miss so much. Those live shows were some of the greatest moments of my life.
00:09:11
Wow. Yeah. Me too. Walking out on stage like that and fucking hearing the reaction from the beautiful audience is like, it just fills your entire heart up.
00:09:22
And then in all these cities where you're just like, oh, Pittsburgh can't be, they can't be that interested in us. And it's a boom. Or like fucking Oslo, Stockholm, Sweden.
00:09:33
Stockholm, Sweden. I mean, just nuts. Oh, we've had so many experiences. You, me, and Vince have had so many fucking crazy ass travel live.
00:09:42
Not even the live show. That's amazing. But the travel and the fucking just planning and the meals and the crazy car drive car drives.
00:09:52
We had many car drives, many car drives and many cracker barrels, many cracker barrels.
00:09:58
The fucking Starbucks. We've enjoyed the Sephora is where we've met new friends.
00:10:02
Yes, because we forgot our makeup. One of us forgot our makeup. that day. All the phones I've left and all the bathrooms and all the airports around the world.
00:10:10
Thank you, bathrooms. Oh, geez. I miss traveling. It'll come back. It'll come back
00:10:16
better than ever. It'll be really it'll be even sweeter when we get to do it. But yeah,
00:10:22
just thank you. 300. Yeah, you got us here. You just kept on tuning in. You keep on tuning in.
00:10:29
Uh huh. We can't thank you enough. We cannot. And we won't. And we won't. We refuse. So we're going to stop. It stops here tonight on the 300th episode.
00:10:40
Never thanking you again. That's our promise. OK, speaking of learning things, I have a quick thing. I learned like a week ago, this hand gesture.
00:10:50
Do you know that like the tick tock is making a big the hand gesture of domestic violence incidents that you can do to a stranger or someone else to let them know that you need help and to call authorities.
00:11:02
Yeah. And it's just like it looks like sign language. It's the thumb tuck into your palm and then you close your fingers around your thumb.
00:11:08
Yeah. You hold your hand up like you're taking an oath. You fold your thumb in and then you curl your fingers down over your thumb like the thumb is trapped.
00:11:17
And that's letting other people know I am in a serious situation and I need help.
00:11:21
That's right. So I just read like a couple days ago that it turns out that a fucking teen who was missing from North Carolina. Did you see this?
00:11:33
Yeah, that's how I found out. Oh, OK. She was rescued by Kentucky police after using that exact fucking hand signal that she learned from TikTok.
00:11:41
She was 16 years old. She was missing. And she was in the car with her abductor and did the hand gesture to someone in a car next to her.
00:11:52
They followed her for like seven miles on the phone with the police They pulled the person over and they arrested him because of that fucking hand signal Yeah How amazing is that Yeah It also because it like I also heard stories of people in a like a domestic violence situation where the the actual abuser is the one that answers the door and is telling the police everything fine
00:12:15
And then the person stands up. It just goes behind the person and does that. So letting him know it's not.
00:12:21
Yeah. It's amazing. It's very cool. You know, the children of TikTok, some of whom are grown adults, they're really there.
00:12:29
It's not just dancing over there. No, it's not. It's a lot of social awareness going on.
00:12:34
Can I tell you my favorite thing I've seen on TikTok lately, which is the exact trite
00:12:40
opposite of what you just shared? My favorite is it's so it's like every morning I wake up and then I then I look at the news
00:12:47
stories. Right. And it's always something that send you over to TikTok. There's always some. Yes. They have to be telling you about what's popular over there.
00:12:54
About two different animal species hugging each other or playing. God bless. Gotta go over there every time.
00:13:00
The things that come up in my feed are often makeup based. Oh. And this one was try this new TikTok makeup trick that makes men fall in love with you.
00:13:10
And I'm just like, wow, really? So I hit it and essentially it's little dots that you put on the outer, inner, lower and upper.
00:13:21
So the inner corner, outer corner, up and around your eye. Yeah. Like basically your eye is a compass and those are the four points.
00:13:29
Got it. Tiny white dots. So I'm like, interesting. And these the women showing that this is the trick are just like, I did this.
00:13:39
And a guy at the club walked up and is like, oh, my God, I can't stop staring at you.
00:13:43
Meanwhile, this girl is so gorgeous. I was like, honey, you could smear shit under both eyes like a football player.
00:13:51
And they would do the exact same thing. It's not that it's not makeup tricks, baby.
00:13:56
Yeah. You have beautiful enough skin and a face that you can do front facing close up makeup tips.
00:14:03
Yeah. Right. There's no. it's also like it kind of is feels very bad to be like do this thing so a man will fall in love
00:14:13
with you and it's like that doesn't exist and that shouldn't be your goal in life and makeup
00:14:19
i mean true hopefully not should i'm not telling people what to do it i i would hope that it's not
00:14:25
you know what of the of the many goals that you have how about the makeup trick that gets you
00:14:30
an MFA. How about, you know, I mean, but look, that's not that's not the kind of stuff that
00:14:35
people I wouldn't click on that. I'm like, well, right, right, right. What would work?
00:14:40
But then it's just like, you know, really what works of a guy coming up and going,
00:14:44
I can't take my eyes off you is being exceptionally beautiful. Yeah, it's being someone who men can't take their eyes off of.
00:14:50
Literally, when my phone acts, if like I accidentally open FaceTime, what I see in
00:14:55
that phone makes me drop the phone so god bless no i'm not i'm gorgeous and god loves me i'm saying
00:15:03
it's great to be 22 and talk what i love is they're always like use this base that makes your
00:15:10
skin glow and it's like bitch your skin's glowing night and day you're you're 22 you couldn't have
00:15:15
more estrogen in your system you're a you're fucking uh oil oh man if i had thought of the
00:15:20
word of it it'd been great but an oil derrick no like a hippie lamp what are those things called
00:15:25
Oh, a lava lamp? Your face is a fucking lava lamp. People can't stop staring at it.
00:15:29
Like, go away. You don't need tricks. You don't need tricks or trips. You don't need fucking makeup, actually.
00:15:34
You're looking great. Just slap up some lip gloss and be like, you're lucky to be here, friend.
00:15:39
That's the trick. That's the true trick. Oh, getting older. Still, ding, ding. Could you imagine if I...
00:15:46
No, it also looks ridiculous, probably. First of all, part of that, I know that makeup trick from the stage,
00:15:54
because that's how you, that's how I should say, like people on Broadway make their eyes look bigger
00:16:02
is you stick a bunch of white makeup in the corner, in both corners of your eyes
00:16:05
and it basically fakes out. Yeah, we knew that in the 90s, TikTok girls, okay? But I like,
00:16:11
this is just like, it's these tiny, it's tiny white dots. So also somebody could walk
00:16:16
and be like, were you painting your house earlier? Maybe they're just, they're also a house painter
00:16:22
and they're just excited to talk to you about your trade. It just doesn't sound like something I want to spend my time on. You know, I had enough
00:16:31
energy to put today a little concealer over the bruise that we talked about on the mini-sode.
00:16:36
And that's about all I had time for. Took the makeup off from under my eyes, which just never
00:16:41
seems to go away, even if I don't wear makeup for weeks. For real. And then covered my bruise in
00:16:45
maybe a zitter too. Yeah. And that's all I've got fucking energy for. Yeah. The people that are like,
00:16:50
first you put on this primer, right? Then you put on the concealer. Then here comes the bronzer.
00:16:55
It's like, what are you doing? How long? Every Zoom call I'm on, I have wet hair. Yeah. And,
00:17:03
you know, a little bit of mascara if I like you. Do you know what it is? It's like the older we get
00:17:08
and the more we need makeup, the less we have patience for makeup. When I didn't, when I was
00:17:13
in my 20s and fucking glowing like a fucking lava lamp, I put all the makeup on. I didn't need it.
00:17:19
Now that I am older and graying and, you know, dehydrated most of the time and I use a little makeup.
00:17:26
Slowly turning into an apple doll. That's right. I don't fucking care. Can't be bothered.
00:17:30
I don't care. Even the grays I'm getting, which I'm only graying in my right temple, which is really a sexy look, I would highly recommend.
00:17:36
Oh, dude. You know about my skunk part. I do. We talk about it a lot. Oh, God. It's just it won't go away.
00:17:44
But I mean, yeah, that's it's that's exactly it. It's the less the older you get, the less you care.
00:17:50
Yeah. And the more you should be caring. But should you? I don know because sometimes I see when the older ladies do care and you like oh yeah yeah yeah It you know these days are over for us I don know All right What do you have going on
00:18:05
What if I then just read a bunch of makeup tips? Oh, this is becoming a makeup tip.
00:18:11
I mean, I do like here's what I do like. There are people I think it's amazing and so cool that so many women and especially young women have gotten so good at makeup because then there's some people are like, here's your five.
00:18:24
minute trick or whatever. They're fucking artists. They're artists and they get to be good at that
00:18:30
and make money off of it. Amazing. That I love because that wasn't real before. It used to be
00:18:34
four shades of that cover girl shit. Yeah. I always had a clown mask on. I was always like,
00:18:41
it's got to get better than this. And it did. It does. It did. So, you know, do all the contouring
00:18:47
you want. It just doesn't work on me. Like anytime I have like a, what's that? Highlighter on my
00:18:52
cheeks yeah i look like i'm sweating and a clown like i'm a special a special kind of
00:18:58
hey it's sweaty the clowns here to yell at you oh we didn't want her for our birthday too bad
00:19:04
my thing is and this is this is the first time this has ever happened to me i've watched a series
00:19:12
of course it's british of course it's a procedural of course it stars martin clans from doc martin
00:19:18
which if you need a break i think i'm definitely in quarantine you and my mom love doc martin
00:19:24
because it's shot on the i think the west coast of england as if it ever sees the sun so when you
00:19:33
watch this tv show it's like every day is a beautiful sunny day in this port town of
00:19:37
port whatever i was gonna say port charles but that's days of our lives um but of course
00:19:44
Can I also tell everyone that you're doing the gesture of walking around? I wish I could see it.
00:19:50
This is me walking around in this TV show. That's how you know it's sunny and beautiful every day.
00:19:54
It's because Karen's moving her shoulders like she's walking around. I walk with my shoulders like I'm actually in some kind of a video.
00:20:02
Yeah, or like you're in a douche commercial walking down the beach. Yep, waving to people.
00:20:07
Hey, Selexa or whatever. I'm here to talk about Maxi Pads. But that show is a great escape.
00:20:13
If you want to just Doc Martin, you're talking Doc Martin. It's beautiful. It's also it's very entertaining, but it's also visually great.
00:20:20
OK, but the star of that show is a man named Martin Clunes, who's a wonderful actor.
00:20:23
And he is now in a TV show called Manhunt. There are two seasons of it, and it's about a real Scotland Yard inspector.
00:20:31
Oh, I believe Scotland Yard or real. Let's say London detective. who has headed up to a bunch of,
00:20:42
but they've made TV series about two of the big cases that he's worked on. And so I just finished season two,
00:20:49
and it's on, I think it's for Acorn. No, it's unpaid, clearly. But I did a thing last night where I was waiting,
00:20:59
like checking every day for the fourth episode because it was a four episode series.
00:21:04
And the build, I was like, they got to catch this guy because there was a rapist in London.
00:21:11
I think it was the north side of London for 17 years. Holy shit. And he got away with it.
00:21:18
And he was only attacking old people. So it was just like they and they couldn't like they did everything they could and they still couldn't catch him.
00:21:28
And they finally did. And so I was waiting for this final episode for so long. Spoiler alert.
00:21:34
They got him. that I checked and then it basically had it showed that the episode was there.
00:21:40
So for a long time, it was just up to episode three. Yeah. Episode four came on, but then you couldn't hit play.
00:21:45
And I was like, what is it? The one where it says like it will be available on November 20, whatever.
00:21:50
No, it's just that on fucking HBO. And it drives me fucking crazy because you think you have another episode.
00:21:55
Yes. And then it's like, no, it's a teaser kind of like you'll it'll look like this when you can hit.
00:22:01
Yes. So frustrating. So frustrating. But I just kept going back kind of like I like my OCD kept bringing me back over and over last night.
00:22:10
And then finally, I think going on to the actual Acorn page, I got to watch it. Nice.
00:22:16
And it was so good. And then there's a series about the real guy in real life and he tells other stories of stuff he's solved.
00:22:24
So I'm just like, oh, man. Is that one man hunt is the series. There's two seasons of it.
00:22:30
Really good. And there's a bunch of people that I've already talked about from other TV shows that are in it with him.
00:22:36
Because they use all the same ones all the time because they are fabulous. I'm still deep in the OxyContin fucking bullshit.
00:22:44
There's a documentary called The Crime of the Century about what essentially we're watching on the TV show Dope Sick.
00:22:52
And they're both fucking incredible and so infuriating. But it's so important to know about.
00:22:58
So I highly recommend those. And Dope Sick is a series also? Yes, Dope Sick is a series.
00:23:03
Fucking Rosario Dawson is awesome in it. Like, it's just a really... And Michael Keaton, right?
00:23:08
Michael Keaton is fucking fabulous. Come on. It's great. Oh, literally today, just to watch this, just to talk about it, I finished season one of Game of Thrones, finally.
00:23:19
Congratulations! Oh, my God, thank you. How do you feel? I feel good. I already started watching the second season.
00:23:25
Right. I did love fucking she was fucking feeding that baby dragon off her teeth.
00:23:32
And the mother of dragons. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You get it, girl, because I do that to a cat.
00:23:36
I gave birth to a cat. Feed that thing off my teeth. She could reach into the fire and have them.
00:23:42
That's how everyone knew she was the real deal. Yeah. Pretty cool. Right. It was pretty cool.
00:23:46
I like that last scene. I'm going to keep going. I'm fascinated by the boy king.
00:23:51
Like, what a little bitch. He's such a bitch. I love him. He's a legitimately bad person.
00:23:56
And I think there were lots of stories of that poor boy actor. Oh, got confronted when that thing was at the height of its popularity.
00:24:04
I bet. Yes. And Peter Dinklage. I could just watch him on screen all day long. I mean, truly a gift.
00:24:11
Uh-huh. All of I mean, that whole cast, you know, so the hound. Uh-huh. I've already bragged about this, but that's I like to say my friend.
00:24:20
But I mean, the dog. I hung out the hound, the guy with the partly burned face. Oh, I thought you meant the dog that belongs to John Snow.
00:24:27
Oh, the dire wolf. oh the hound is cool so that's rory mccann he was in the book group uh he was one of the stars so i
00:24:35
got to meet him when i when i went and worked on that yeah he's truly one of the sweetest
00:24:40
nicest scottish uh gentlemen i i mean of all time and he seeing him in that i'm like god he's a good
00:24:50
actor i really like him that character yes but he's like but he's mean and he's like all business
00:24:56
and he's whatever. And you're like, God, but then it's like, oh, he's so not like that in real life.
00:24:59
My favorite was when we used to go out after shooting. He was the one that he never understood
00:25:08
that I don't drink. So he'd always go, he'd go, oh, do you need a drink? And I go, oh, no, I don't
00:25:13
drink. And then he'd go, okay, I'll get you next round. He always thought I meant right then.
00:25:19
Oh, I get it. That's like when your grandma's like, when you say to your grandma,
00:25:22
I'm vegetarian. And she goes, but what about some chicken? Yes. You just haven't considered.
00:25:27
No, it's not. How about a nice cider? How about a cider? How about a cider instead?
00:25:32
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great. You're in the club now. I'm in it. I'm in it to win it.
00:25:38
It's going to get so good. Okay. Dragons. Dragons. Dragons. Should we do exactly right corner?
00:25:44
Let's do it. Corner. I mean, there's so many great things happening on the network.
00:25:49
We're only able to highlight a couple. That's right. Or we'd be talking about it all night.
00:25:53
That's right. instead we have to talk about our own gratitude that's much more interesting um we're very excited
00:26:01
because on berger weiniger's legendary podcast i said no gifts he has from you know him from veep
00:26:09
you know him from detroiters you know him from being one of the funniest people around mr sam
00:26:15
richardson is the guest so you should definitely go over and listen to those two talk about gifts
00:26:20
and whatnot. Legendary comedian. And we didn't say it on the episode last week, but it was the one year
00:26:26
anniversary of I Saw What You Did, our film podcast. So you should definitely go listen to Danielle and Millie
00:26:33
talk about that because they've been doing it for a full year. They know what it's like now
00:26:39
to podcast for a living. And so you have to listen to their movie reviews. They're doing some amazing ones these days.
00:26:45
Female hosted movie review podcasts. You guys, we got to support that. please. And then also, so now you guys know, Karen and I are doing a third episode every week,
00:26:54
the celebrity hometowns where we bring a celebrity friend on and they tell us whatever the fuck their
00:26:59
hometown is or their favorite story, which is so great. So this week, you guys, it's already up.
00:27:06
Our guest is none other than Paul freaking Holes. That's right. He comes and tells us
00:27:11
how he got interested in true crime and criminal justice in the first place. It's incredible. That's an origin story everyone wants to know.
00:27:18
Yeah. Why are you yelling at us? Why are you mad at us? Oh, by the way, I talked to Michelle Boutot.
00:27:25
She was horrified that she said Sondra instead of Chandra Levy. She was horrified and she was like, I was so nervous to tell the story correctly.
00:27:33
And I was like, hey, I didn't catch it. And I covered that story. I didn't either. We were both just so focused on our friend Michelle and being so excited to talk to her.
00:27:43
But obviously nobody wants anything like that to happen. And so we had a couple of people let us know and correct us, which please understand that we knew that the second it happened.
00:27:52
And so apologies for that. Obviously, that is a mistake. And she is was horrified.
00:28:00
Right. If we could have gone back and somehow dubbed it, we would have. But we couldn't.
00:28:04
Yeah. So that was just a mistake. And as we all know, mistake mistakes do happen sometimes.
00:28:09
And yeah. Acknowledging that. Yeah. All right. Let's see. we have Christmas ornaments for sale.
00:28:18
We, Frank is just tied up in all of the wiring right now. Lowering your volume too, Georgia.
00:28:24
Oh no! It's raising your volume, yeah. Oh no. See, get up here please. Sorry. I told you.
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Are you okay? I'm okay. Falling apart! Frank just walked through all the wires. He's very klutzy.
00:28:45
He pulled one, turned George's volume up and then made me kick that fucking metal table with my bare toes so hard.
00:28:53
Oh, that happened a long time after. I'm not klutzy. You're klutzy. So get your not just Christmas, but get your holiday gear.
00:29:03
My favorite murder holiday gear. My favorite murder. Yep. And also follow Exactly Right on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and for updates on all of our shows there.
00:29:12
Yes. Um, anything else? I think that's it for the biz. All right. Well, I'm first today, right?
00:29:19
Yeah, do it. Okay. And I will. In a way we go. Let me just put my dots on my around my eyes.
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head over to article.com. Goodbye. All right. Today, I'm going to tell you about the case of Patty Stallings and her conviction for killing her infant son.
00:32:55
Oh, this one's twisty turny. The sources used today are the National Registry of Exonerations, three St. Louis Post-Dispatch articles by Tom Ullenbrock by Virgil Tipton, and then one by a staff writer.
00:33:11
an Associated Press staff article, People Magazine article written by Paula Chin,
00:33:15
and the National Institutes of Health. And also there's a forensic files about this.
00:33:20
So here we go. In 1986, Patty is working at a 7-Eleven in St. Louis when she starts dating
00:33:28
a frequent customer named David Stallings. They're both in their mid-20s. They're like
00:33:33
flirty stuff. And then they eventually get married on August 27th, 1988. And on April 4th,
00:33:41
they welcome a son named Ryan. The new family moves away from the big city to Hillsborough
00:33:47
and they move into a home overlooking the lake. So they're starting their life together.
00:33:52
Around two weeks after his birth, little Ryan starts experiencing health problems.
00:33:59
He can't keep his formula down. He's vomiting at least once a week. The problems don't go away, but the Stallings is, quote, kind of get used to it.
00:34:07
According to People Magazine, over the July 4th weekend that year, Patty finds three-month-old Ryan, quote, listless in his crib, staring at the ceiling, breathing heavily, and his lips are shut tight.
00:34:19
I know, it's awful. Patty immediately gets in the car and starts driving Ryan to see his pediatrician at Children's Hospital in St. Louis, but she's like panicking.
00:34:29
So she gets off on the highway too soon and ends up instead going to Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital.
00:34:38
And this is a mistake that'll haunt her. So Ryan is immediately put on a respirator and many tests are conducted.
00:34:46
On July 7th, blood results show a high level of ethylene glycol and acetone in his body.
00:34:53
Ethylene glycol is a colorless. It's sweet. It's found in radiator antifreeze. It's found in industrial solvents and in resins.
00:35:01
And it can be fatal in large enough doses. The hospital tells the Stallingses that their son has been poisoned with antifreeze.
00:35:09
So the officials at the hospital, they call the sheriff's department and also the Missouri Department of Family Services.
00:35:16
So they start interrogating the couple separately, of course. The police ask questions like, does the couple ever fight?
00:35:22
If Patty's jealous of the baby? And they even tell David that Patty failed a lie detector test, which isn't true.
00:35:30
The results were just inconclusive. And of course, lie detector tests either way are bullshit.
00:35:34
David, of course, is like thinks the police are crazy, that he doesn't believe his wife would ever harm their son.
00:35:40
And it doesn't matter what he thinks, of course, because the police are convinced that Patty poisoned her baby.
00:35:46
They theorize that she did it by putting antifreeze in his formula. And when they do a search of the family home they find two bottles of antifreeze in the basement and one of them is half empty So of course real quick we all know about Munchausen syndrome by proxy WebMD describes it as a psychological disorder marked by attention seeking behavior by a caregiver often the mother
00:36:08
And essentially, that person gains attention by seeking medical help for exaggerated or made up symptoms for their child or who's ever in their care.
00:36:17
And it often makes the symptoms if there are any worse. so over the next two weeks ryan remains in the hospital and his condition improves when it comes
00:36:27
time to go home cps shows up and instead of going home they take ryan into custody
00:36:32
so patty and david are only able to see ryan like one day a week at 10 a.m the visits are
00:36:38
totally supervised they're not allowed to give him anything edible um on august 31st patty and
00:36:44
David visit Ryan like normal. Except this time, Patty's left alone with her son from like three
00:36:51
to eight minutes only, like a very short time, which wasn't allowed, but somehow happened.
00:36:56
And then later she feeds Ryan a bottle of formula that the foster mother had prepared.
00:37:04
And everything seems fine. The Stallingses leave after their weekly visit. But four days later,
00:37:09
Patty and David are notified that Ryan is back in the hospital after showing signs of poisoning
00:37:14
again. And the next day, September 5th, Patty is arrested for assault. On September 7th, Patty is
00:37:22
notified that Ryan only has a few hours to live, but she's not allowed to visit her son. And little
00:37:27
Ryan dies in his father's arms. I know it's horrible. She's not allowed to attend his funeral
00:37:34
either. And then she's told that she faces first degree murder charges and that the death penalty
00:37:40
is on the line. So around the same time, it almost seems like this different case contributed to this
00:37:48
fervor around parental murder. So in 1990, this woman named Paula Sims is convicted and given a
00:37:57
life sentence in the death of her six-week-old daughter, Heather. And she later admitted to
00:38:03
also the 1986 death of another one of her infant daughters, Lorelei. And in both deaths, she
00:38:09
initially claimed that an intruder broke in and kidnapped the girls. And it turns out she suffered
00:38:14
from postpartum psychosis. So it's just this horrible story. And I think it must be in the
00:38:19
front of people's minds at the time too. So it didn't seem that far-fetched. A month later,
00:38:25
Patty is in jail awaiting trial when she finds out that she's four months pregnant.
00:38:30
On February 17th, Patty's transported from jail to a hospital where she gives birth to another son
00:38:36
named David Jr., and they call him DJ. Patty's allowed to see her baby exactly two times before
00:38:42
he's placed in protective custody. Less than a month after his birth, on March 3rd, a social
00:38:48
worker tells the Stallingses that DJ is sick. He's, quote, listless, he won't eat, he's frequently
00:38:54
vomiting, and he has problems going to the bathroom. Of course, Patty's immediately familiar
00:38:59
with these symptoms, since they're exactly what little Ryan had experienced, but Patty hadn't
00:39:04
been anywhere near him since his birth. DJ sent to Children's Hospital in St. Louis, the hospital
00:39:09
where Patty meant to take Ryan, but had taken the wrong exit. And this hospital diagnoses DJ
00:39:15
with something called methylmalonic acidemia or MMA. According to the National Institutes of Health,
00:39:22
MMA is a rare genetic disorder that affects the body's ability to break down certain parts of
00:39:27
proteins and fats. And this leads to a buildup of toxic substances and bouts of serious illness.
00:39:34
Mm-hmm. So today, most hospitals screen newborns for MMA, but that wasn't the case when Ryan and
00:39:40
DJ were born. So why wasn't Ryan diagnosed with MMA? To explain this, we're going to talk about
00:39:46
some science shit real quick. MMA produces propylene glycol, which is a single carbon
00:39:53
atom away from being ethylene glycol. So yeah, their makeups are so similar that confusing them
00:40:00
in the lab is super easy. So essentially, these babies bodies make something that's so much like
00:40:06
the antifreeze poison. Yeah, that it looks like that's that it's being given to them when actually
00:40:13
it's what their body naturally makes. Exactly. Exactly. And if you don't have experience with
00:40:18
that exact very rare genetic makeup, you won't even know what to look for, especially in a random
00:40:23
lab. And I bet especially too, when they're like, can you test this baby's blood, we think the mom
00:40:29
is poisoning them. And if the lab already knows that, of course, they're going to be like, yeah,
00:40:33
you're right. Look at this. So it turns out that's exactly what happened in Ryan's case.
00:40:38
The lab misread Ryan's blood test results and thought he had the presence of ethylene glycol
00:40:43
when he really had propylene glycol. Had the lab properly diagnosed Ryan, he would have been treated
00:40:50
with vitamin B12 and he would have lived. Oh, that's simple. That's horrifying. I know.
00:40:57
and Patricia wouldn't have been charged with murder, but that's not what happened. And this
00:41:02
case is still just beginning. So the Stallings is believed Ryan most likely had MMA, of course. So
00:41:08
new tests are performed on Ryan's blood, which had been saved. Patty's released from jail pending
00:41:13
results before her trial. And the assistant prosecutor tells the media that if the tests
00:41:18
show that Ryan had MMA, he'll drop the charges. However, he adds that he has no reason to believe
00:41:23
The original tests aren't accurate. So the blood tests come back and they're the same as before, except this time one lab concludes that both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are present in the blood.
00:41:36
So it doesn't really exonerate her in any way. And Patty's taken back to jail to face the first degree murder charges of Ryan.
00:41:46
Patty attorney tells the trial judge that based on one of the lab results Ryan could have died from MMA but the attorney can find any medical experts willing to testify And the judge won allow DJ results in court because of that So it doesn seem like the defense attorney fought hard enough to find you know
00:42:07
evidence to exonerate her. Well, also, I think that's really saying something. If the defense
00:42:14
attorney was saying they can't find someone, it's like people are saying they don't want to get
00:42:18
involved in arguing for the fact that that rare disease exists or something. Right. Well, as you'll hear, there are experts in it that could have been found.
00:42:30
Paid for. Right. Maybe. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Maybe. Money. In January 1991, Patty's three day trial begins since her attorney can't bring up Ryan
00:42:42
dying of MMA, so they can't even mention that disease. Her attorney instead tells the jury
00:42:47
that he could have died from natural causes, to which prosecutor George McElroy III responds,
00:42:53
quote, you might as well speculate that some little man from Mars came down and shot him
00:42:58
full of some mysterious bacteria. Like, you know, calling bullshit. He says there's no other way to explain how ethylene glycol made its way into Ryan's body.
00:43:07
And police and social workers testified that Patty showed little emotion upon learning
00:43:14
about Ryan's death when she was in prison, which we all know, of course, can't be quantified.
00:43:20
On January 31st, Patty's convicted of first degree murder and assault and is sentenced to life in
00:43:25
prison. After hearing the verdict, David, the husband, faints and is taken to the hospital.
00:43:30
So he totally still supports his wife and doesn't believe she did anything. Well, especially he knows what happened.
00:43:36
Right. Even before. Yeah. Now, of course. But even before that, he was like, there's no fucking way.
00:43:40
For her first month in prison, Patty can't sleep or eat. She loses so much weight that she goes from a size 11 to a size 7.
00:43:48
And then she finds Buddhism, which teaches her to do whatever it takes to survive.
00:43:52
And it's the only way she survives this, she says. What? I've never heard Buddhism described like that.
00:44:00
What? Buddhism is like, do whatever. Mercenary. You know what Buddha taught. Anything it takes.
00:44:09
That's right. That's right. Squash the little guy. May I counter suggest that maybe it's Buddhism is accepting that life is suffering and that essentially being in the present moment and accepting that not wanting things to be different, that level of acceptance actually releases a lot of the pain that people go through always thinking their life should be different.
00:44:38
Right. All right. Maybe that maybe there you go. I would just like to be the prosecutor here and argue.
00:44:44
I appreciate that clarification. Just a personal clarification. I could be wrong.
00:44:49
I don't think you are. I'm not a Zen master. You don't think it's that do whatever it takes.
00:44:53
I have the tiger. I mean, I bet you there are certain sects of Buddhism where they're like, we can kill you with our hands.
00:45:01
We just are choosing not to in the present moment. That's what it is. OK. In May 1991, Patty's case is featured on Unsolved Mysteries. And this dude, Dr. William Sly, who's the professor and chairman of the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at St. Louis University, happens to be watching.
00:45:22
Thank God. He contacts Dr. James Shoemaker, who's the director of the university's metabolic screening laboratory.
00:45:30
And he says yes. And he ends up testing samples of Ryan's blood. He concludes that Ryan did die of MMA.
00:45:37
So thank God this guy was watching. Yes, for real. Dr. Shoemaker sends the samples containing MMA.
00:45:42
So he sends the sample to seven different commercial labs to see who will get it right.
00:45:48
and out of the seven labs, three of the labs come back with the wrong results. So that's how easy it is to read the results incorrectly.
00:45:58
So it's just it's the lab technician reading them wrong. It's not even them coming out, you know, wrong.
00:46:04
Right. Because it's such a fine difference. It's human error or a human inexperience, I guess.
00:46:11
So prosecutor McElroy still doesn't believe Patty didn't kill her son. He asked Dr. Sly and Dr. Shoemaker to find an expert on the matter.
00:46:20
And so they go to this guy, Piero Ronaldo, who's a renowned geneticist from Yale.
00:46:25
He looks over the results. He spends the next six weeks investigating the case and determines that the two doctors are correct.
00:46:33
So according to People Magazine, Ronaldo says, quote, the scientific findings used to convict Patty were grossly inaccurate.
00:46:39
And he says, technically speaking, I've never seen such lousy work. It's a classic case of misdiagnosis.
00:46:46
Whoa. I know. So finally, this guy, McElroy, the prosecutor, is convinced. He actually asks a judge to drop the murder charges and orders a retrial due to the inadequate legal defense she had gotten, not due to the new blood test findings.
00:47:03
So on July 30th, 1991, Patty's released and placed on house arrest while she waits another trial.
00:47:08
and then McElroy tells the media he hopes to bring Patty back to trial again, briefly mentioning that the blood test might put a hitch in his plans. So he's still fucking
00:47:19
trying to go after her. Then, and this is kind of surprising to me, on September 30th, he announces
00:47:25
that all charges have been dropped and he personally publicly apologizes to Patty and
00:47:31
her family. He's like, I was totally fucking wrong. He goes, we can't undo the suffering
00:47:35
the Stallingses have endured during this ordeal. And I apologize. I hope their lives will be happier
00:47:41
and fuller in the future. Holy shit. I didn't think it was going to turn like that. No. Wow.
00:47:48
Well, you never you see so many prosecutors like just ignoring everything and going after them.
00:47:53
Or then being like, I still think they're guilty, even though it's proven beyond a
00:48:00
There's some often those stories where it's like and then they were up for reelection so they couldn't lose a case.
00:48:05
Like it turns into stuff that that has nothing to do with what's actually happening.
00:48:09
Exactly. Well, good for that guy. Yeah. And Patty says to the media, they can't put a price tag on what they've taken from me.
00:48:16
No. Once she's released, she's finally able to mourn the loss of Ryan. She tells the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, quote, I've not concentrated on that a lot because I knew that it would break my strength.
00:48:27
and I needed what little strength I had left to make it through this. Maybe now I can start accepting this now that the big fight's over.
00:48:35
Little 19-month-old DJ who has spent his entire life in protective custody is finally allowed to go home to his parents.
00:48:43
And what I heard mentioned about this that's interesting is that for some reason he still wasn't allowed to go home with his dad,
00:48:48
even though it was Patty that was accused. But if he had gone home with his dad and gotten sick,
00:48:54
maybe the dad would have ended like they wouldn't have because yeah you know what i mean yes that
00:49:00
makes sense that they couldn't risk they weren't going to risk another child's life thinking yeah
00:49:05
that she some or she or they somehow poisoned their first child they couldn't but if he had
00:49:11
gone home with the dad and gotten sick they would have just said that they both poisoned him instead
00:49:16
of them finding out that he was actually sick so it's almost it sucks but it's kind of it's smarter
00:49:21
It's a fortuitous thing that he didn't go home with his dad. Yeah, it's the protection actually served everybody.
00:49:27
So he had only met his mother the day he was born. So not having a bond with her child is extremely difficult for Patty.
00:49:34
She powers through it. She has to learn how to care for a child with MMA since she never got the chance to do that with Ryan.
00:49:41
DJ has to be fed through a tube. Sickness like the flu or colds can be life threatening.
00:49:47
So get your healthy kids vaccinated for the ones who can't. That's right. But Patty and David try to focus on spending as much time as possible with their son while they can.
00:49:57
So David and Patty, they sue Cardinal Glennon Hospital. They sue the St. Louis University Hospital.
00:50:05
They sue the doctors, Smith-Klein-Beacham Clinical Laboratories, where the labs were misread.
00:50:11
In total, in 1993, they're awarded several million dollars. Yeah, I bet. The next year, McElroy, the prosecutor's up for re-election, Patty donates $10,000 to the campaign of McElroy's opponent.
00:50:25
Oh, shit, Patty. Yeah. Yeah. Shit. And the opponent ends up winning. That's Robert Wilkins.
00:50:34
Still, that guy apologized. That's big. I'm sorry. That's what we were just talking about.
00:50:39
Like, you've got to take responsibility for it. He did the bravest thing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:45
Yeah. Sadly, Patty's heartache doesn't end when she's paid in millions. She and David eventually split. In 2013, DJ passes away at the age of 23, although I can't find what causes his death. There's so little information after the 90s on this entire family.
00:51:02
David Stallings, the father, dies after a long illness in 2019. But I can't find a lot of information about Patty after that.
00:51:11
But clearly she was a very strong woman who powered through with the help of Buddhism and being a badass.
00:51:19
And that is the case of Patty Stallings. I mean, I would imagine she wants nothing to do with being in the public eye in any way, because that's what a horrible situation to have been in.
00:51:31
And the amount of loss even before she went to jail. I mean, just like, that's horrible.
00:51:38
Wow. Terrible. Unbelievable. That's fascinating. It just, wow. I've never heard of it.
00:51:45
Yeah. I think I definitely saw the unsolved mysteries way back when, when I was a kid about it.
00:51:52
So it's always kind of stuck with me. I think there was definitely a Law & Order SVU that was similar where the mother was arrested for poisoning her child, but it actually, they traced it back to something in the formula.
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Where to next? Goodbye. Okay, this week for our 300th episode, I'm going to tell you the story of the Chippendales murder.
00:54:32
Do you know this one? I've been hearing things about it lately, but I don't know about it.
00:54:37
Okay, so this has hit the pop culture scene that I know you love to hang out in lately because there's all kinds of projects going on about it.
00:54:47
And I just saw an article and was like, the what? and looked it up and I simply can't believe that it's real and that I never heard about it before.
00:54:57
Yeah, I don't know the details at all. Okay, awesome. I'm going to tell you. So sources for this, a lot of the names of the articles
00:55:04
give away what I'm talking about. So I'm just going to tell you there's an article for ABC
00:55:09
7 Chicago by Emily Whipp, Boaz Haliband, Jacket Tate, Glenn Ruppel, and Lauren Efron.
00:55:17
there's an LA Times article by Edward J. Boyer there is a New York Times article by Todd S.
00:55:24
Purdom there is an article for grunge.com by Karen Corday Wikipedia article a couple Wikipedia
00:55:33
articles there's a an LA Times article by Henry Weinstein the heavy.com had an article with no
00:55:42
byline in it about this topic. And of course, People Magazine, there's an article by Christina
00:55:48
Duggan. And then there was one for The Independent by Phil Reeves. Those will all be listed in detail
00:55:55
on the show notes. Okay. So this starts April 7th, 1987. Okay. So we're back in the height of the
00:56:05
triangle neon pink uh you know it you love it the 80s coke fueled coke coke coke classic
00:56:15
new coke may have already been premiered i'm not sure crystal pepsi crystal pepsi was out and about
00:56:22
we had uh jazzercise had already hit that's right and um peaked it was an amazing and a very fertile
00:56:30
time in America. So 46 year old Nick DeNoia is working in his Manhattan office on the 15th floor
00:56:38
of his West 40th Street office building. He's a TV producer and director. He's also a choreographer
00:56:45
and a two time Emmy Award winner for his NBC kids show Unicorn Tales. Don't remember that. And that's prime kid show time for me.
00:56:54
Yeah, it was a it was an Emmy Award winner. Maybe that was too high quality for you.
00:56:59
Oh, yeah. I want trash. Give me trash. In 87. Yeah. But Nick's most recent and arguably most lucrative venture has been choreographing original dance numbers for the world famous male dance review, Chippendales.
00:57:16
Yeah, that guy's got a fun life, I think. I think so. So if you grew up in the 80s, you knew about the Chippendales dancers, which is very strange.
00:57:25
Definitely. They were male strippers that had basically been brought to pop culture.
00:57:32
Well, it's almost like Playboy a little bit, too, where it's like, if you're a kid, you still know what Playboy is.
00:57:38
Exactly. It's still this like, woo, taboo, fun thing. No, I just tried to look it up to see.
00:57:43
It felt to me like I'm sure there was a Donahue episode about Chippendales because I feel like I saw them.
00:57:48
Of course, there's the infamous and insanely hilarious Saturday Night Live sketch with Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley, where they are both Chippendales dancers.
00:57:59
That really is one of the one of the funniest and most legendary incredible sketches of all time.
00:58:04
That was from like 1990, I think. But Chippendales was so huge and they were such a kind of like a cultural turning point.
00:58:15
They were they were really big. But I also like it's too early, but I had memories of them making like a guest appearances on like the Love Boat.
00:58:23
Yeah. Love Boat is 270. It's like I just knew that they were around. And as like maybe Dallas, were they on episode of Dallas?
00:58:31
Yeah. I bet you on shows people would go see Chippendales. Yes. And then that's how kind of like I as a 13 year old would know about them.
00:58:38
No, it was a known quantity. They were everywhere. Yeah. So Nick D'Onoia was a big part of the international national success of Chippendales.
00:58:49
Are you going to talk about what they wore too? Because I feel like you need to have a picture in your head of what they were wearing.
00:58:54
Okay. So if you are a Gen Zer and you're just like, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:59:01
This was an all-male stripper dance troupe. Yeah. And they wore black spandex pants.
00:59:11
Yeah. no shirt yeah white cuffs like like um tuxedo cuffs tuxedo cuffs and tuxedo collar and like
00:59:19
little bow ties yeah which was actually and i will talk about this later a ripoff of the playboy
00:59:24
um playboy outfit that women used to wear so they kind of appropriated that slightly
00:59:30
this was very like the 80s idea of sexy men which is a ton of like feathered hair mustaches
00:59:38
very hairy chest very oiled chest like cut and fucking worked out to high health yes they were
00:59:45
these were you know uh strippers male strippers but they were like you know the like real high
00:59:54
class real like they look like male models and when you look at pictures of them now you like oh these actually all look like gay porn stars yeah because that was like the big mustache
01:00:05
and the chef's kiss of male models yeah truly just real adonis's okay so essentially this is a
01:00:12
business that in 1987 was just like couldn't have been huger so around 3 40 on april 7 1987
01:00:20
An unnamed business associate goes to Nick's office to go talk to him and he finds him dead on the floor of his office.
01:00:29
He's been shot through his left cheek. And when the police arrive on the scene, they note a bullet wound from a large caliber gun has been used.
01:00:39
And based on the position on the floor, it looks like Nick was shot as he was just sitting at his desk when the murderer fired.
01:00:47
There's no signs of a struggle and nothing seems to be missing or stolen. So it's immediately very suspicious.
01:00:53
Captain Edward Minogue leads the investigation and witnesses tell him that they saw a man about between 35 and 40 years old, possibly Hispanic, approximately 5'7", 145 pounds, who had been hanging around Nick's office and around the building before the shooting and after the shooting.
01:01:11
They described this man as being clean shaven, having either black or salt and pepper hair, wearing a dark tan jacket and jeans.
01:01:20
So they immediately start digging into Nick DeNoia's business history for possible suspects and motives being that the murder took place in his office.
01:01:30
So the year before, DeNoia ran a traveling Chippendales troop under the name Chippendales Universal.
01:01:36
So the troop was associated with the official Chippendales company, but Chippendales Universal was an independent organization that paid royalties to the original Chippendales company.
01:01:48
It was like a what's it called? Like a franchise. Yeah. So the general manager of the New York Chippendales Club was a man named Thomas Lord.
01:01:57
And he said that Denoya had recently parted ways from the Chippendales company altogether.
01:02:04
Chippendales company altogether. So we'll go into the history of Chippendales. So it was started in 1979 by a Los Angeles entrepreneur named Soman, but nicknamed Steve Banerjee. So Steve Banerjee was born in what's now Mumbai, India on October 8th, 1946. He emigrates to the United States in 1969 and settles in Los Angeles.
01:02:29
So when he first gets to L.A., he owns a couple gas stations. He works at them as an attendant.
01:02:35
He tries to do a bunch of other business things. Like he tries to kind of work his way through different businesses.
01:02:42
None of them go very well. Then in 1975, he decides to buy a bar that's over on the west side of L.A.
01:02:49
And he names it Destiny 2, Roman numeral 2. So he has these dreams of like a successful nightclub.
01:02:56
So to drum up business, he tries all kinds of entertainment. So he tries, of course, exotic dancers, magic acts.
01:03:05
There's even female mud wrestling, which was, remember, all the rage back in the late 70s, early 80s.
01:03:11
It was. So gross. But none of that really hits and nothing takes off. Then in 1979, Steve takes some very fateful advice from a bar regular, a guy who calls himself the Canadian pimp.
01:03:24
This man tells Steve that he should try hosting an all male strip show so that women come to his bar.
01:03:31
And this man's name is Paul Snyder. So that name might sound familiar to you. And that's because he was the boyfriend of Playboy Playmate Dorothy Stratton.
01:03:42
Oh, yeah. And the two had very recently moved to Los Angeles from Vancouver, Canada, because he Paul Snyder had sent Dorothy's nude photos into Playboy.
01:03:53
And she immediately they were like, move down here. You're in the magazine. She immediately got into got movie parts. She like her career took off huge. The next year she was playmate of the year, 1980. And of course, Paul was like Svengali like guy. He made her marry him. He became her quote unquote manager.
01:04:15
So he thought he was a mover and shaker in Los Angeles. And the more successful Dorothy Stratton got, the angrier he got.
01:04:23
There was a lot of cocaine involved. He ended up murdering Dorothy Stratton and then killing himself.
01:04:28
Yeah. It's the plot of the movie Star 80. It's very infamous. And Paul Snyder is the guy who gave Steve Banjory the idea to start Chippendales.
01:04:38
That is wild. And it was Dorothy Stratton's idea for the dancers to wear cuffs and...
01:04:44
Holy shit. Just like Playboy Bunnies. She basically was like, oh, you got to do this.
01:04:50
Isn't that insane? What a weird little tidbit. It's like the creepiest true crime crossover ever, because apparently their apartment was in West L.A., probably near where this bar was.
01:05:02
So, like, I guess it was their hangout. It's so strange. What the fuck? Yeah. And here's the thing, you know, Paul Snyder, he had he was trying to be a mover and shaker in the business.
01:05:15
And the truth was, he was right. This was an idea whose time had come. Yeah. Because basically, the timing of this of like, it be like turning, you know, the 80s beginning was this time where women for the first time were like, going to work on mass that there were working women, women were were independent, they had their own money, they weren't getting married right away.
01:05:39
Like that birth control pill birth control pills. I mean, women were it was the beginning.
01:05:44
It was like first wave feminism where people were like, I don't immediately have to get married and have a kid to have my life be full.
01:05:52
And suddenly there was this place And this was aside from of course gay bars where men would be dancing for each other Yeah This was the first ever all strip show that was catered toward women
01:06:07
Wow. So immediately he starts doing this all-male strip club night and women are lining up around the block.
01:06:16
Shit. So he decides to rename the bar Chippendales. And the idea is because he's naming it after an 18th century furniture designer, like Chippendale's furniture is like the most expensive, fanciest furniture.
01:06:29
Because to Steve, that name represented pure class. And that was one of. Oh, I did not know it was named after that.
01:06:37
Yeah. So he's basically trying to do upscale strippers for women. Yeah. Because now instead of it being, you know, like down by the airport or whatever, it's kind of like saying this is a high class kind of form of entertainment where you can come and essentially like it was allowing women to arguably for the first time ever go out with their friends, celebrate their sexuality freely in a public space and feel like safe about it and good about it.
01:07:11
And almost feel like it's this commercial endeavor as opposed to they're sneaking into some bar and it's kind of dirty.
01:07:17
And it's empowering, too, because you get to make the catcalls with the men now.
01:07:21
Like, especially back then, it was like that catcalls were like everyone thought it was a form of fucking flattery.
01:07:27
All the men did. And now it's like the women get to take that back and start being the fucking objectifiers.
01:07:33
Exactly. It was complete role reversal. And essentially, these men of Chippendales were gorgeous, smiling, oiled up into it.
01:07:44
They were voluntary sex objects. They were dressed like construction workers, firemen, doctors.
01:07:50
And all of these all-female audiences were basically saying, it's our turn to objectify you now.
01:07:55
And they were fucking coming in droves to do it. They were throwing their money at these men.
01:08:00
the whole thing was, you know, would we say empowering? I don't know, but it was freeing.
01:08:07
It was freedom, the freedom to kind of do the thing you thought you would never be able to do.
01:08:13
Right. And it really was like a lightning bolt culturally. So Steve obviously sees and knows
01:08:20
that he's got a hit on his hands. So he aims to make Chippendales the most lucrative club in Los
01:08:25
Angeles. So this I love. There's the fire code capacity for his building was 299 people.
01:08:33
He consistently exceeds the numbers. It's some nights he had 600 women in this club.
01:08:38
Oh, my God. And there is a picture. There's amazing picture. I'll show you after.
01:08:44
It's a stripper leaning into a crowd so that a woman can give him money or I think they're
01:08:49
kissing, actually. First of all, every woman looks like everybody looked when I was a senior
01:08:54
in high school like that kind of like your hair was really curly but it was also a bi-level yeah
01:09:00
and a lot of triangle earrings shoulder pads tons of shoulder pads but like they're sitting so so
01:09:08
normally it would probably be you know like there's the floor where the dancers are performing
01:09:12
yeah there's some steps up and then there's you know cocktail tables along the back but there are
01:09:17
women sitting on the steps sitting on the floor wow the guy the way the guy is leaning his package
01:09:23
is right in this girl's face. Like it's hilarious. There's women packed in and they're all like overjoyed.
01:09:30
Every woman is like smiling and going crazy. Oh my God, I love it. So it's, I mean, it must have been,
01:09:36
I would have killed to be in those early days. It must have been insanity. Yes, yes.
01:09:41
And almost like those, like the early Beatles concerts where it's like teenage girls screaming out
01:09:46
all of their anxiety and all of their like, oh my God, I love John Lennon. Picked up anger and all these things.
01:09:52
All of it, where it's like this thing is happening that they've never been able to do before.
01:09:57
And now they get to do it and everyone's into it. Oh, my God. I got to ask my mom if she went there because...
01:10:02
Janet was fucking in the front row. You know it. I bet she went after work one time, like with her girlfriends.
01:10:10
Right? Do you want me to text her? Do it. Oh, my God. Okay. So I'll keep telling you.
01:10:14
So basically, at least twice the LAPD had to raid the club because of capacity and safety
01:10:20
code violations. But then the raids made the nightly news, which then spread the word that there was an all-male strip club in Los Angeles.
01:10:29
So even more customers flocked to Chippendales. And then the rumors started to circulate that Steve was the one who was filing the complaints so he could get free PR on TV.
01:10:39
Smart. Genius. So, of course, word spreads across L.A. like crazy. and because it's LA, the club gets more and more hotter and hotter young men who are, of course,
01:10:52
acting hopefuls that have moved to town. They're like, man, I could dance. I could strip or
01:10:57
whatever. They want to make a quick buck. There's an endless supply of guys like that,
01:11:02
like untapped. So these dancers really were like, if you look up, they were the picture of like
01:11:10
80s male hotness. Which is so weird now because you're like, that looks like a dad.
01:11:15
That looks like a 40 year old dad. It's like a 22 year old actor. It's so funny.
01:11:20
Everybody looked so much older in the 80s. What is it? Like, I guess it could be perspective.
01:11:26
Milk? Do they drink a lot of milk? Well, also, it was just like it was the style.
01:11:31
I don't know. But like the guys that were seniors when my sister was a freshman, I remember looking at
01:11:36
a yearbook. They looked like 30 year old men. It's a weird thing. Yes. It's a weird thing.
01:11:43
So, yes, 100%. There was a guy that was a senior and my sister was a freshman. She would talk about how when they would do volleyball for PE, he would hit the volleyball just with his elbow.
01:11:52
Like it was no big deal. And it would just like make them go insane. It was a different time.
01:11:58
It was a very different time. It was a different time. It was a very football-y kind of like...
01:12:02
Jock. The Steelers and the Rams and whatever. Yeah. It was jock central. Yes. And this was like the jocks were dancing for your pleasure.
01:12:15
I mean, that's a pretty nice turn. All right. I think. I'll take it. Okay. So one such talent was a man named Reed Scott who auditioned to be a dancer in the early 80s, probably like 81.
01:12:27
He gets the job. Then he works his way up from dancer to he becomes the emcee of the whole show.
01:12:33
And then he eventually starts working on the business side. And the business is exploding, of course.
01:12:38
So in 1981, Banjari hires TV producer and director Nick Danoya to choreograph the dancer's move.
01:12:46
So I think in the beginning it was kind of like just come out and strip and do what you can.
01:12:50
Nick Danoya comes in with that, you know, the TV showbiz kind of thing and is like, no, no, no.
01:12:56
this needs to be like this needs to be a show like a put on a Vegas style show almost yes exactly so
01:13:02
at first they all come out in their cuffs and their bow ties they all have the same outfit on
01:13:07
yeah a woman named Candace Marin who was the associate producer for Chippendales at the time
01:13:13
said Nick DeNoia's real skill quote as a choreographer and a director was coming up with
01:13:18
moves that a great big muscled guy could perform and look graceful while doing it amazing so they
01:13:24
essentially casting for obviously for looks you didn't have to be a great dancer of course not
01:13:29
but then you know so they would make dances that you you could get away with it but then of course
01:13:34
i'm sure after a while you had your patrick swayze type who were like oh and guess what i am also a
01:13:39
professional dancer so watch this five six seven eight chippendales becomes so popular steve opens
01:13:47
a second club in New York City in 1983, then one in Denver, then one in Dallas. Damn.
01:13:53
Yeah. So that's when Nick Denoya comes up with the idea of starting a traveling Chippendales
01:13:58
dance troupe so they could bring the exotic male dance sensation to all the cities in
01:14:05
the country that didn't have their own home Chippendales club, which is genius. So smart.
01:14:10
So smart. It's immediately a hit and it starts earning the company additional millions every year.
01:14:17
So as we all know, with great success comes great bickering. Steve Bantry and Nick start fighting over their differing creative visions for both the club act and for the company itself.
01:14:29
Reed Scott was there watching his bosses go, quote, toe to toe and just scream and curse at each other.
01:14:35
That was from Oracle People magazine. So in 1984, Steve and Nick settle on a deal.
01:14:42
And this was literally written on a bar napkin where Nick Denoya can continue running the touring troop under the Chippendales name.
01:14:51
But they he and Steve will split the profits of that 50 50. But Steve is incredibly competitive.
01:14:59
He is incredibly paranoid and he he wants it all to himself. Yeah. It's kind of that mistake a lot of people make where it's like, hey, guess what? This was actually Paul Snyder's idea. Right. First of all. And then, you know, whatever it was when it started, which would be I would love to see when it started. Yeah. The cool thing is, well, there's movies coming out. There's there's actually there's there's been a bunch of like made for TV movies about this case, which is crazy because I've never heard or seen any of them.
01:15:32
But more importantly, there is a podcast that came out this year by a historian named Natalia Petruzella, and it's called Welcome to Your Fantasy.
01:15:44
And it's all about this case and about Chippendale. So if you want, I didn't listen to it, but I bet it's amazing.
01:15:51
So if you want the like drilled down details, that is what you should listen to.
01:15:55
Welcome to Your Fantasy by Natalia Petruzella. So anyway, so Steve is trying to basically hold on to everything and keep it for himself.
01:16:04
So he starts getting really paranoid. He hates seeing that Nick is getting the like recognition with the success of the Turing Act.
01:16:12
It's like almost like Nick's getting everything in his mind. And he also he's bummed that like that Nick's getting the credit and that also he starts to get paranoid that Nick is keeping more than 50 percent for himself.
01:16:24
so this jealous paranoia builds and builds as the company grows in fame and popularity so it's just
01:16:32
getting worse i didn't see anything that said anything about drugs but it was the 80s of course
01:16:39
at a club at nightclub a nightclub in the 80s this is alleged this is editorial i just saying my opinion coke was fucking everywhere also cola coca and also these these are like male dancers So like I sure you need a little toot to get out there and get your you know like
01:16:57
come on. It must have been part of it. Absolutely. But that's my opinion. That's mine too.
01:17:02
Could be made up. Listen to Welcome to Your Fantasy to get the real story. Because that'd be hilarious if Natalia was just like, guess what?
01:17:11
This was an AA strip club. There was not a... dime of coke to be had um okay so so we're back to 1987 when the murder took place there's two
01:17:24
years of investigating nick denoy's murder it's the case has gone cold in 1988 steve banjury buys
01:17:32
back the full rights to the chippendales touring company from denoy's family so now he has
01:17:37
everything again in the early 90s other entrepreneurs follow um in chippendales footsteps
01:17:43
and launch their own male exotic dance acts. One is a British-based strip act called Adonis.
01:17:49
They started in 1991 by several ex-Chippendales dancers, and it's managed by former Chippendale employee Steve White.
01:17:57
So this is a 16-man dance troupe that's operating out of England, and they hire Reid Scott as their emcee.
01:18:05
So the original guy from the club goes to do this. Reid Scott just left Chippendales the month before,
01:18:10
And he's really excited to be in England. It's like a new country, new venture. But Steve vines out about Adonis and he is enraged. So then in July of 1991, an informant by the name of Strawberry, which is everyone thinks is might be a fake name.
01:18:30
contacts an FBI agent in Las Vegas named Scott Garriola and Strawberry tells Garriola that an
01:18:37
LA-based man named Ray Colon has offered him $25,000 per person to kill three targets in
01:18:46
Blackpool, England. Holy shit. Adonis dancer Michael Fullington, Adonis manager producer Steve White, and Adonis MC Reed Scott.
01:18:54
Oh my God. So, dude. They're all, as I just said, ex-Chippendales dancers and employees.
01:19:02
And according to this informant Strawberry, Ray Cologne gave him an eyedropper filled with cyanide, and he was instructed to inject it into these men.
01:19:13
Holy shit. Where do you get cyanide from? The same place you get Coke from? I mean, I guess. It seems like it's a different trip.
01:19:21
Seems like it'd be really hard to find. It seems like it's the end of it's like, yeah, that would it wouldn't be a nice combination.
01:19:29
No. OK, so the same month, Reed Scott's on stage kicking off an Adonis performance in the resort town of Blackpool, England.
01:19:39
One of his bosses goes on stage and pulls him off mid sentence. he's taken to a back office where he meets um officers from scotland yard who inform reed
01:19:51
that a hit has been taken out on him him and the two other adonis employees and that their lives
01:19:57
are in danger reed scott would later tell people magazine i got this cold chill as the detective
01:20:03
told me you can run and hide or you can stay and we can catch the killer before he gets to you
01:20:08
It was like something you hear in a movie. It didn't seem like real life. And then that's when Reed told the officers, this has got to be Steve Banerjee.
01:20:18
So Reed Scott, Michael Fullington and Steve White, they didn't run and hide. They did continue to play it cool and let the investigation continue as they did their job.
01:20:29
So the FBI follows Strawberry's lead to Ray Cologne. And when they search Cologne's home, they found 46 grams of cyanide, which is enough to kill 230 people.
01:20:41
So Cologne's arrested on the spot and he's charged with conspiracy and murder for hire.
01:20:46
So Cologne remains in custody for the next seven months before he decides to cooperate with authorities.
01:20:52
He confirms that it is indeed Steve who hired him as a hitman, not just to kill Michael Fullington, Steve White and Reed Scott, but also for the 1987 murder of Nick Denoya.
01:21:04
Colon reveals that in the case of Denoya, he farmed that hit job out to another man named Gilberto Rivera Lopez.
01:21:12
So when the FBI look up Lopez, they see he's already in prison for an unrelated crime.
01:21:18
So, Banerjee knows that Ray Cologne was recently arrested, so he suspects that this is a sting operation.
01:21:29
So he enters the restaurant he greets Ray Cologne by putting a finger to his lips and directing him to follow him into the bathroom And there Banerjee has Cologne stripped down to ensure he not wearing a wire But luckily the mic had been sewn into the boxers So Banerjee can see
01:21:48
it. But any time, still, any time Ray Cologne asks a question, Banerjee writes his answer on a
01:21:55
post-it note, holds it up, and then rips it up and throws it in the toilet. That's kind of smart.
01:22:00
So nothing's on tape and the IHOP staying is a failure. So the FBI has to come up with a new plan.
01:22:06
So they take Ray Cologne to Switzerland where he tells Steve Banerjee that he's fled police custody and found asylum abroad.
01:22:15
Smart. Right. So the idea of an escape rather than a release makes Steve feel more comfortable about talking.
01:22:22
So he agrees to go meet Cologne in a hotel room in Zurich. So there, the two men discuss the murder for hire plots.
01:22:30
Steve's a bit apprehensive at first. He even goes so far as to say at one point that he feared the FBI might be listening in the next room, which they literally were.
01:22:40
Of course they were. But Ray Colon is able to calm Steve down. They end up talking for three to four hours.
01:22:47
And during that conversation, Steve brings up the code word for Nick DiNoia, which is the D, they say, unfortunately.
01:22:56
And he asked Colon if the FBI knows anything about that or about the fact that he'd given Ray Colon the money to buy guns for these hits.
01:23:07
The FBI catches Banerjee on tape, not only confessing to hiring Ray Cologne to murder Nick DeNoia, but also the attempted murders of Reed Scott, Michael Fullington and Steve White.
01:23:20
So on September 2nd, 1993, Steve Banerjee is arrested and he's charged with conspiring to kill his three former employees.
01:23:28
He pleads guilty to the charges as well as the charges of racketeering and a surprise twist, two counts of arson.
01:23:38
Because it turns out that in 1979, there was a Santa Monica club called Moody's Disco and they attempted to run a male strip show of their own.
01:23:49
So Steve Banerjee hired someone to burn Moody's Disco to the ground. Holy shit. Greed, man.
01:23:57
They talk about in the songs, burn it down. Greed. Luckily, the fire did little damage and Moody's was only temporarily closed.
01:24:06
So they didn't really do anything. But then five years later, in 1984, Banerjee launches a similar attack on the popular Marina Del Rey nightclub, The Red Onion, because they started a male strip show.
01:24:18
But again, the arson attempt is unsuccessful. Banerjee pleads guilty to all the charges.
01:24:23
He faces 26 years in prison and he'll be forced to give up ownership of Chippendales.
01:24:30
But on October 23rd, 1994, the day before his sentencing, Steve Banerjee uses a bed sheet and a wall hook and strangles himself to death in his jail cell.
01:24:40
Fuck. Yep. So Gilberto Rivera Lopez, who's the man who's hired to kill Nick DeNoia in his Manhattan office, gets charged for Nick's murder.
01:24:50
He's convicted of second degree murder and he's sentenced to 25 years to life. And then Ray Colon, the hit man who orchestrated Nick DeNoia's murder, as well as the failed hit attempts on Steve White, Reed, Scott and Michael Fullington.
01:25:03
He pleads guilty to conspiracy and murder for higher charges. But his sentence is reduced because of his cooperation with the FBI and his, you know, his help with taking Banerjee down.
01:25:15
He's released from prison in 1996. Wow, that's a quick... Yeah. Yeah. Because he he collaborated or cooperated.
01:25:24
Yeah. The informant who contacted FBI agent Garyola Strawberry is later revealed to be a man named Lynn Bressler.
01:25:31
So basically, if it wasn't for Lynn Bressler getting cold feet in 1991, no one would ever have known about any of this.
01:25:40
And those those cases would have gone unsolved. Like, who knows what would have happened?
01:25:45
So that guy really, really is kind of the hero for coming forward. Yeah. The Chippendale murder has been covered across film, TV and podcasts.
01:25:56
There's a made for TV movie called The Chippendale Murders in the year 2000. There's a movie called Just Can't Get Enough from 2002.
01:26:05
The Discovery Channel, it was on the FBI files in an episode called Backstage Murder.
01:26:10
And then, of course, the podcast Welcome to Your Fantasy that came out this year.
01:26:14
There's also a biopic that's currently in the works by director Craig Gillespie, who did I, Tonya.
01:26:19
And Dev Patel is playing Steve Banerjee in that. Wow. Big name. Right. And that is the unbelievable and to me unheard of story of the Chip and Dale murder Yeah Holy shit Crazy right Twisty journey
01:26:35
But also like I can see it all in my mind of it's like over over there. It was on Overland on the West Side.
01:26:41
I'm picturing exactly where it was. It's just like you can just see that kind of like that nightlife and that 80s thing going on.
01:26:49
Well, I promised to talk to my mom before next week and find out because there's no way she didn't go.
01:26:54
I cannot wait to hear if Janet has a Chippendale story. I'll let you know for sure.
01:26:58
Or if anybody, if you have a Chippendale story from the 80s. Yeah, or your mom or your grandma does.
01:27:04
Like an OG. Was your dad a dancer? Please, were you a dancer? Were you a dancer?
01:27:11
Fucking email us. Oh my God. For your hometowns. That'd be amazing. But also, you know, I love that there's all this.
01:27:17
I love when there's a thing like that, that to me is such a, oh my God, that was so, that's
01:27:23
so right up my alley, time and place and everything, but I had never heard of it.
01:27:26
No. There's still those out there. Yeah. Oh, my God. Just because we're on our 300th episode, don't give up.
01:27:32
It always feels like I just don't know anything I'll ever talk about again. But now, of course, we have Hannah Creighton as our producer, who's like,
01:27:38
give me ideas and I'll plan it for the next eight months. And then I don't panic every week, which is so nice.
01:27:43
No, we have some really good support and nice help. You know who we've had supporting us for 300 episodes?
01:27:50
Who? Mr. Stephen Ray Morris, who's right there with us. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you so much.
01:27:55
You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah. He's been in all the lofts and all the apartments and all the studios and some of the live shows.
01:28:04
He really has the patience of a saint. True. Those early days were pretty rough, I've got to say.
01:28:09
Those current days can get rough, too. It's all pretty rough, but I think we're also having a good time.
01:28:17
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you as always. Here's to 3,000 more.
01:28:26
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
01:28:38
Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. Associate producer, Alejandra Keck. Engineer and mixer, Stephen.
01:28:44
Ray Morris. Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray. Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
01:28:52
And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.
01:28:58
And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to myfavoritemurder.com.
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