302 - Whistles & Flags | My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.

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Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. When a charming neurosurgeon rode into Frontier Town

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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room

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and became sought after by patients. He promised to heal them. Instead, he left a trail of broken bodies.

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Find your summer escape today. Visit Pura.com to learn more. Goodbye. my favorite murder

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hello and welcome to my favorite murder that's georgia hardstar thank you that's karen kilgara

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I almost forgot my line. I was lost there first. We haven't scripted this in years, so it could be whatever you want it to be.

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I need to run my lines the night before and then an hour before. I wish you would.

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I skipped. Look at the script, Karen. God. Five, six, seven, eight. Please. I do love the idea of there.

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There's got to be podcasts out there and not the scripted act out ones, but like, you know,

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somewhere there are people doing podcasts that type up a script beforehand like a hello welcome

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to this is that thing and this is what the podcast is about casual conversation there's a couple of

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them that i've listened to because they're true crime ones where they have hosts but clearly

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they're actors playing hosts trying to they're just trying to get the whole thing done yeah

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talent like there's no one that actually it's not their podcast right it's just like you have a great

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voice can you can you present this true crime podcast even though you have no interest in true

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crime whatsoever yes there's some and it's not a judgment it's just a way of producing it's a little

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well i mean what i'm saying you're allowed a little the goal isn't what we're doing let's just say that

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but this is all i'm saying the goal should never be what we're doing please please have less of this

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out in the world but it's the thing where you can tell when people even if they're really good

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actors, you can tell when they're not actually talking, right? You know, from the soul like I am

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right now. It's a talent to be this soulful and loose. Oh, God. This blue eyed soul over here

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that's happening every week on the show. It takes almost six years and 300 episodes to be this

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loosey goosey. You also forget that anyone's listening is a great step in the process.

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Yeah. And then you have to memorize the script and forget it all. Right. Let it come out naturally.

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pretend we took so many so many acting classes for this now as an actor Karen which you are

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uh I don't know I just wanted to say actor over the years what I've realized is whatever drew

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drew me to acting it was just a kind of placeholder because what I really wanted to do

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with stand-up comedy and acting the job of acting sucks it does it sucks what about i'm sorry but

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real quick craft services like you could get anything you want for breakfast like anything

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but you can also do that outside that building with with and not fail at the same time you can

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just go you can just go have a bunch of crazy eggs you're right breakfast quesadilla you can

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do that anywhere you can do it you know what you can do you can have dinner for breakfast just like

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you can have breakfast for dinner you can do it all meatloaf meatloaf it's 7 a.m i can oh man one

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time like not long ago vince and i were having breakfast at the diner and i saw a couple next

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to us get chili cheese fries and it was like 10 a.m i was like i am allowed to do that yes you are

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similar to the time and this was at stonestown in the mid late 70s my aunt Kathleen took me and

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my sister and my cousin nancy to stonestown which is the big mall in san francisco down 19th avenue

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and they had this their their food court was like international food so there was no brand

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okay it's just like this is where you can get japanese food this is where you can get chinese

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food this was where you can get you know which is progressive for the late 70s right completely

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it was like and then there was like hamburgers and then you know yeah whatever fried chicken

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or whatever but i'll never forget we got whatever we were all we all got to get what we wanted

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came back sat at the table with our trays and i looked over and there was a little girl with like

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a man in a suit it was clearly father and daughter and her her plate was just a little

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mountain of mashed potatoes and i was like okay that's a divorced dad i looked at it you gotta

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eat whatever you want when your divorced dad is fucking taking you out like anytime i longed for her life i was just like imagine the amount of tv she gets to watch and the amount of mashed potatoes she gets to eat

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she is running the fucking show in that apartment and her name is kamala harris and and today she is uh the leader of the free world right

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okay can i this is a perfect segue otherwise i wouldn't bring this up this early in the show

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because this is bad all right today i stumbled upon the fact that at some point 2019 and before

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that pringles put out like it's almost like a like a gift set you know like when you get at the

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grocery store of like here are all these different kinds of cookies for the holidays they put out one

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of different flavor like like thanksgiving flavor pringles just yes just like the candy corns we ate

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oh shit and it's have you ordered it have you overnighted it well first let me tell you

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the flavors and then why i haven't overnighted it it's gravy gravy gravy gravy gravy and gravy

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oh i would have fucking double overnighted it then what's that tonight that's tonight uh turkey

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mashed potato stuffing of course then there's a mac and cheese one a creamed corn fucking pringle

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uh green bean casserole a cranberry sauce one and a pumpkin pie pringle okay are these so sorry you said they started in 2018 well it's i i was only able to find them up

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to 2019 the reason i didn't overnight them is because guess how much i don't think they're

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making them now guess how much they're going for on fucking ebay oh uh today hundred dollars a

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thousand dollars down from 1500 because everyone's been like fuck you so no can you believe

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pop that top yeah and then you're like yeah give me that green bean casserole um pressed potato

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flake chip you know that company tried to get away with not calling them a potato chip

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so they wouldn't have to like have the same nutritional bullshit. Like they tried to make it seem healthier.

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It was not a potato chip. And the FDA are like, it's a fucking potato chip Pringles.

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Like calm down. But also when we were on the road, Pringles were my downfall. Remember, I used to say it to you.

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I'm like, I'm not going to open the little Pringles can that's going to be in the hotel.

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I would try to. Yes. Right. And I would always be like Diet Coke and little Pringles can.

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But it's like these are not the idea that they would even pretend to be healthy.

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They're barely potatoes. They're not nothing that's happening in your mouth in that no Pringle retainer that I stick

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in my mouth and let melt away. It's not it's not made of food. It is no different than and I am not talking shit because I will make these no no fucking

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shame at all. The like instant mashed potato flakes. It's the same thing. It's just squashed into a thing into a perfectly sized shape of the roof of your mouth.

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You can just do over and over again. They get easier to eat as you go. So they because the flavor doesn't build like, you know, on your like 10th Dorito, you're like, my tongue burns and this is bad for me and I know it and I'm doing it anyway.

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Yeah. Not so with Pringles. Question. Important question that I've had to ask myself from our snack drawer recently.

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Nacho cheese Dorito or Cool Ranch Dorito? Well, if. Here comes the eating disorder.

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if it were still 1980 then i would be like oh i don't even know when i don't think they make

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yeah or i would say earlier days when before one food tasted different because now it just

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isn't the same but the original uh nacho cheese doritos had my heart and soul from the first

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moment i tried them i was like what is happening these are amazing yeah when cool ranch doritos

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came out and i was like a spinoff exciting but they never really did it for me yeah the way the

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original ones did these days i don't know if they're putting extra like paprika on there or

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something they're just too it's too much like the whole event is too much the cool ranch ones

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no the oh the classics that i used to love so much with a turkey sandwich like in school

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smashed in there anyways this is our this is our thanksgiving and christmas food theme podcast

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we'll be trying not to jones's gravy soda can we try that yes please okay i'm gonna buy that

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i'm gonna buy you know jones i feel like jones soda should get more credit because i think they

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started the weird flavor thing that oreo is now very well known for oh a lot of places are doing

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like can you believe we're doing this everyone's like oh yeah at this point jones soda did it

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very early on yeah they did that was kind of their thing maybe i'll go to the galco's soda shop

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in fucking Eagle Rock or Highland Park that's got like all the old school soda and candy.

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I'll pick up some weird flavors maybe next week or before Christmas or whatever.

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We'll do some weird taste testing. I'm loving this life that I'm living. And you're a huge part of that.

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Honor. Honor. Thank you. Also, the idea that just made me have kind of this weird memory of someone's mom when

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i was growing up used to go and it was pre-bevmo did they have soda delivered to their house

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there was some special they she would go to a specialty soda shop oh rich and get

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rich or just like or just kind of like live it on the edge because my parents it was the 70s

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where it was like everyone was like wheat bread and the peanut butter with two inches of oil on

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the top that bummed you out so bad nightmare but there's some people's parents who are like you know

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what fuck all that shit we going full on like who wants to squirt with dinner obscure fascinating sodas we like what kind do you want my mom bought a zima once i don think that counts speaking of alcoholism

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i don't think accidentally just to relax everybody yeah that's alcohol for all those kids who don't

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know that's a malt beverage it was an original delicious carbonated malt beverage and it

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how old were you i think i was like 12 anyways meth came not much later and can you fucking blame me

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you're like this is the perfect this was the gateway zima is a gateway drug to everything

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okay so she went to the store and she got wait what you're telling me a story that i interrupted

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about your no no no it was a mom that basically went to a specialty it was before

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BevMo, there was still, there was some specialty soda shop and she just got some, it was like

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sodas I'd never seen even at like, um, even our Aegis' corner store had like blue knee

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high, you know what I mean? Where you'd be like, I'm going to go get a blue knee high and you can't stop me or whatever.

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Oh my God, that's adorable. But this mom thought. Remember Jolt when we were children?

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Yes. Oh, we'd get Jolt colas. What was it? double it was like double caffeine coca-cola that tasted great it tasted great and i think there was

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also extra sugar in it more than that there was extra yes asbestos in it there was extra

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and a sprinkle of meth all of it and that's how we learned that's how we did it um do you have

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anything no i uh i don't i have really nothing to report i think it's like a slow crawl to the end

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this year. Yeah. Slow crawl toward although I have to say I'm very excited because my family

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came to visit and everyone's down and we're with their of course we're watching a lot of football

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which I would on the surface think I would be irritated by but the second it's on oh like I

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wouldn't watch it by myself but when my dad is there and then everyone's kind of around that's

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how we're just so used to that that's like the background. It's comforting. Yeah. It really is.

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I love I don't I mean I'll watch it for a minute while it's on I don't give a shit about it but like it's so comforting to have yeah it means everyone's chilling right yes exactly it's like it's a casual kind of party vibe there's lots of whistles which you know I love whistles here and there

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Karen is a whistle influencer everyone knows that about her everyone knows how I'm passionate the history of whistles but

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that also my dad will turn and say to like talk to my sister right about different players as if

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we're all up on it and we have no idea what he's talking about and I always play along and then he

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goes hey you're but you're bullshitting me and he like but he does it every time where I'm like

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right I've never watched one of these games like I've no you might as well just be making up yeah

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and yet you still keep I have to I have to pick that up because when Vince puts wrestling on and

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He's like so into it. And I like want to be there for him, but I'm not that interested in wrestling.

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And he'll start laughing and he thinks I'm watching with him, but I'm not. And he'll be like, that guy, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And I'll be like, what? I have to be like, I have to start pretending like I've been watching.

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Yeah, you play along. Yeah. As a loving, supportive partner. Okay. And that's, I do it too.

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But I also sometimes it'll be like, sometimes I'll just go that. How is that team New York?

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I thought New York was white and green. and then he goes that's the the giants or the jets there's one they're white and green are one

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of them and it's not the ones we were watching i think the jets and i was like oh which one's

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better like trying to participate again they're both the shits and he's like waving me off like

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it wasn't talking time yeah that's the thing is like i don't know culturally how to how to blend

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so you have to kind of wait for him to give you the cue of like you're allowed to ask a question

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participate right now. Or like I'm willing right now to share with you. Otherwise, I was just looking for camaraderie.

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I have two daughters and a granddaughter and you didn't give it to me. So shut the fuck up.

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He gets none of it. He has to do it all by himself. I play long and pretend, but I'm doing it sarcastically and he knows it

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and it hurts his feelings. It's just kind of funny because it's like I think it's a holiday thing.

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And then it really started feeling holiday-ish. And then I think that is a good way

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to blend and just be like, what colors are the which i like this team because of the colors that's yeah oh they love that

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a fan well the other day vincent are going to brunch and he goes oh it's a good thing that the

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rams aren't playing today already be busy and i go oh where are they from san francisco they're

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from la i don't fucking care i'm from here i don't give a shit it's unimaginable to many men that you

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just have not paid attention to any sport pretty much ever i don't care it's it's yeah but it's

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you know but then it's fun to dip into and go yeah it's the holiday season oh that was a uh

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false start i love that when they do that oh my god because you know why whistles and flags

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karen's favorite thing whistles flags maybe a hand gesture it's like this is i'm just a card

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because you did something or is that soccer a card i don't yellow card okay great but they do

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like their mic gets turned on the um oh yeah i see referee or umpire i see you grabbing your

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rips like i know what you're saying oh dang number 29 99 to the next stop and i'll be like dad which

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team is that guy on god damn it just get out of here if you're gonna be like that well i'm coming

00:17:49

over for dinner with vince and cookie on wednesday so i think we said wednesday yeah it's gonna be

00:17:54

I can fucking wait I getting your dad a glitter iPhone case for his new iPhone His new Christmas or birthday iPhone that you getting him

00:18:05

Spoiler alert. Don't anybody tell him. Spoiler. Because your dad listens to this podcast and is on social

00:18:10

media, right? And this comes out days after. That's right. Oh, this comes out on Thanksgiving.

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Happy Thanksgiving to you. You know the old Thanksgiving Carol. What's your favorite part about Thanksgiving, Georgia?

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Well, you mean food-wise? That's all I can think of. But yeah. I don't know. It's the main thing.

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It's like cozy and happy and everyone's like stoked. I guess my answer is Jenga.

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Okay. The family plays Jenga. You got yourself there. I did. It was a winding road to get to Jenga, but you got there.

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I got there. What's yours? Wait, your whole family plays every year? It's just like there for whoever wants to play it, which I really enjoy.

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it's fun that's really good too because it's like kids of every age right one to a hundred

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you know me my favorite thing about thanksgiving is whistle those thanksgiving whistle carols you guys go around the block every year

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so loud just piercing piercing whistle concerts and then there's a couple dog whistles thrown in

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Just to fuck with everyone in the neighborhood. You know what I actually I will say what I miss about old school family Thanksgivings and what I love about this.

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What's already happening is the way my family does it. And my sister is so like planty, planty.

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Nice. That she's kind of like she's got different areas of the kitchen. This is the boxes of stuffing are over here.

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Yeah. And they're with the things they're with the onions that are going to go in there.

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So she's like putting things in areas and everything is slowly being prepped. And because we're there's going to be a pie and there's going to be, you know, the whole thing.

00:19:57

Yeah. And the morning of it all starts at like eight a.m. It just kicks off and goes all day long.

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I think that's what I love. I do. What time do you guys eat? Because everyone's coming over to our place like two, which is insane for dinner.

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Like a dinnertime thing. I think people I mean, five ish, I think probably is five or so.

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that's smarter yeah oh unless unless something bad happens on wednesday you guys can swing by

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after your thing on thursday nope but we cut you we cut the kilgarifs off from our holidays

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we get one chance and one chance only to make this right fucking right if if frank and cookie

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don't get along this podcast is over goodbye frank and cookie i told georgia earlier that um

00:20:43

because we were talking about her bringing cookie over to play with frank and then i said

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everyone in petaluma's grandparents are named frank and cookie that is just like the most

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the most hilarious familiar name combination it's so true like i didn't even think about a great

00:21:01

combo what a great couple they are how fun they are and invite them for christmas i have a high

00:21:06

ball huh yeah it's frank and cookie's house oh he's home for he's home from work i make him a

00:21:10

highball and we have we have cocktails cookie can play the piano for sure gather around tinsel around

00:21:18

her neck like what cookie put the garland back all right should we get this thing going why not

00:21:25

oh we should do um exactly right corner let's do it we should do work come on why oh it's coming up

00:21:33

on our third anniversary of this network holy shit that's kind of mind-blowing i just saw that

00:21:38

in the email and I'm like what really wow wow amazing congratulations everybody the baby we

00:21:45

birthed without fucking pain meds or anything uh actually if it's if it's exactly right it's

00:21:54

third anniversary then we need to call out thank bless and hold dear the great Danielle Kramer

00:22:01

who has been running this show since, you know, six months into day one and kicking ass and taking

00:22:10

names for us and with us. And we could have never gotten here without Danielle Kramer.

00:22:15

Never, ever. She is a saint and an incredible person. She's the greatest. She's the coolest. Thank you, Danielle.

00:22:23

Yeah. Thank you, Danielle. Happy three years. She's like, I quit. I can't stand it.

00:22:29

I hate you both. actually danielle's the one that's like i just want um quarantine and the pandemic and all the

00:22:38

scariness to be over so we could go out to dinner again because we had a real good

00:22:43

dinner going out to dinner um thing we did and she's vegan and still enjoy dinner like that says

00:22:49

something like that's a person who can party that's right yeah and then oh waiting for impact

00:22:56

of course dave holmes incredible podcast this week is taking a little detour into the 90s

00:23:01

alternative rock with guest Peter Stewart, who's the musician from the band Dog's Eye View. So

00:23:07

get fucking hop into the 90s, put on a slap bracelet and jump on in there and get into it.

00:23:14

That's actually a really that's a really good interview. It's such a fascinating.

00:23:17

Love that podcast so much. And then, of course, if you go to exactly right media dot com and or

00:23:23

my favorite murder dot com, you can go check out everybody's merch. Every show on our network has

00:23:29

merch and they have great merch. Like I saw what you did. We are selling Danielle Henderson's book.

00:23:35

She has signed copies of her book that she just wrote, which is a great book. And there's also,

00:23:42

they have some kind of amazing arts and crafts wall hanging kit that is in the colors of the

00:23:47

podcast, you know, logo really great. There's like, of course, bananas, bananas has their cat,

00:23:54

Their candle, their holy candle where Scotty is the baby and Kurt is the baby. The Virgin Mary, I think is what they're doing.

00:24:02

And it's holding babies, naked babies, Scotty. It's very odd and wonderful. It's very devotional.

00:24:07

Just like them. It's for your dirtiest prayers. Yeah, everyone's got stuff that you, that make great gifts that you can go on there.

00:24:15

And then, of course, we've got all of our t-shirts and whatnot. We have ornaments.

00:24:19

My favorite murder ornaments and so many good gifts. Ugly Christmas sweaters. We have all kinds of stuff.

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There's a stay saved and do God's mission sweatshirt, which is truly one of my favorite.

00:24:29

But A, things that ever happen on our podcast. And then B, it's a great looking sweatshirt.

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And if you order by December 8th, you'll get it by the 25th. I don't know how it works.

00:24:41

No, that's right. Be aware of the supply chain. That's it, right? That's all our biz.

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00:27:41

Quince.com slash MFM. Goodbye. okay okay here we go georgia goes first yes i'm going first and i'm going to tell you karen about

00:27:56

this this news story i've been fascinated with since i first stumbled upon it a couple years ago

00:28:02

and i've kind of been following it it sounds like something out of a sci-fi book but it actually goes all the way to the fucking top as it always does as it does and

00:28:12

should. This is the Havana syndrome conspiracy. Oh, shit. Yeah. You know, talking about this.

00:28:19

Yeah. Yeah. For today's story, I use sources from a BBC article written by Gordon Carrera.

00:28:28

And I use that heavily. An article written by Andrea Mitchell, Ken Dillion and Brenda Bressler

00:28:32

and a U.S. News article by Paul Schinkman and New York Times opinion article by Spencer

00:28:40

Boek Lindell, an ABC article written by Connor Finnegan and Matt Saylor and the Council on

00:28:47

Foreign Relations. So let's get into some conspiracy shit. OK, so the Havana syndrome is shrouded in mystery and conspiracy theories.

00:28:58

And the U.S. government hasn't totally been forthcoming about the details, which, of course,

00:29:03

just makes it more interesting to us fucking tinfoil hatters. But recently, they vowed to be more transparent.

00:29:11

So with that said, here is what we do now. In 2015, President Obama meets with Raul Castro in an effort to restore U.S. relations with Cuba, which works great.

00:29:23

And soon the U.S. opens up an embassy in Cuba. And so the people who are going to work at the embassy in the U.S. government are sent to live and work in Cuba.

00:29:32

So they're there to work with the Cuban government to collect intelligence to fight back against Russian and Chinese spies.

00:29:39

Great. In 2016, CIA officers in Cuba start suffering from mysterious ailments. Some victims report hearing buzzing, grinding metal or piercing squeals.

00:29:51

They cover it like super loud so loud that they cover their ears but that doesn make a difference It like it in their head Um others report not hearing a sound but feeling heat or pressure in their skulls Many victims suffer from dizziness

00:30:05

fatigue, headaches, disorientation, cognitive difficulties, and more. And these symptoms last

00:30:11

for months, even after the occurrence. So three CIA officers stationed in Cuba come forward to tell

00:30:19

NBC News what it's like to have what's now referred to as Havana syndrome. So the public

00:30:25

will take it seriously. Tina Onifer says she was standing at her kitchen windows and she's one of

00:30:30

the U.S. workers. She's at her kitchen window. She's washing dishes when out of nowhere,

00:30:36

she quote, felt like she was being struck with something. It was as if she had been seized by

00:30:42

some invisible hand and couldn't move. She felt pain that she'd never felt before in her life.

00:30:47

And the pain was mostly in her head and her eyes. And so she's gripping her head.

00:30:53

She can't fucking even move. She's able to get away from the kitchen window. And the acute symptoms stop.

00:30:59

But she still had a splitting headache for the rest of the night. And for the next couple of weeks, she experiences vertigo.

00:31:05

Her memory is affected. But meanwhile, also, her two kids who were upstairs at the time didn't experience anything.

00:31:13

So it was like it was targeted through her window. allegedly allegedly this is all you're gonna be dealing with it normally i'm you know me and big

00:31:24

foot and all the crypt as well just stuff i had i've read a lot of i've read some about this yeah

00:31:29

what i'm not a believer you're not okay let's get into it no okay this is i fit well yeah go ahead

00:31:38

i'll get to the people who are like bullshit okay okay so married couple kate husband wow

00:31:43

And Doug Ferguson and Doug wife had a different experience than Tina's. They heard, quote, an annoying sound at their house many nights a week over the course of weeks.

00:31:56

The sound was piercing, persistent, very loud. And they said it was nothing you could sit down with and be OK with.

00:32:03

Like it was not ignorable. After examination by neurologists, Doug was allowed to go back to work.

00:32:08

But Kate was diagnosed with a brain injury, quote, related to a directional phenomenon exposure.

00:32:17

And she had to retire on medical disability after treatment didn't help. So there's your I don't believe it, Karen.

00:32:24

In my face immediately. But doctors diagnosed her with a directional. What's it called?

00:32:31

Directional phenomenon exposure. Huh. OK, well, let's get more into it. So for the year 2016, the U.S. intelligence officers, specifically in Cuba, seemed to be the only people suffering from the syndrome.

00:32:45

So it was specific to Cuba. But then in 2017, a dude named Mark Polymeropoulos, a senior CIA agent, wakes up in a Moscow hotel with his ears ringing and his head spinning.

00:32:59

He later tells the BBC that he felt like he was going to vomit and he couldn't stand up.

00:33:03

two years later mark was still suffering from headaches so severe he had to retire

00:33:09

in 2018 a cia officer located at the consulate in china reports similar symptoms

00:33:17

she suffers headaches nausea and loss of balance for months initially believing it was connected

00:33:24

to high levels of pollution but then her mom comes out to help her she also falls ill and

00:33:30

And then here's like a little piece of evidence that like to me means a lot. Her dog falls ill, too.

00:33:36

Meaning like. Yeah, but I'm just thinking black mold. Natural gas escaping through a hole in the ground that no one knows is possible.

00:33:48

Radon gas. I mean, I don't know those actual symptoms of everything, but having a migraine like I've told you that story of when I was in college and that day in my room.

00:33:57

and I both got a really bad migraine, couldn't move, laid in bed. We didn't work for the government and we weren't.

00:34:05

No one gave a shit about anything we knew because we didn't know anything. So it's the kind of thing we're just like, okay, this is the kind of story that people

00:34:13

freak out about and then start going, I have it too. And it's like, okay, I'm going to get to that.

00:34:18

Okay, great. Okay. So from there, the syndrome makes its way to every continent except, and this is a conspiracy,

00:34:26

Antarctica. What are you doing, Antarctica? Yeah. I just being cold. People suffer from headaches, dizziness, nausea and vertigo, loss of movement, hearing and concentration.

00:34:40

People hear loud sounds similar to cicadas, which seem to follow them from one room to another.

00:34:47

But when they open the outside door, the sound abruptly stopped. And some of the victims said they felt as if they were standing in an invisible beam of energy.

00:34:54

oftentimes though if like if there's a cricket at your house and you can hear it when you go to

00:35:01

look for it if you open a door it will stop if it knows you're coming that's right just putting

00:35:05

it out there i'm gonna devil's advocate you this entire don't take it personally i'm just doing it

00:35:10

hey man i didn't invent havana syndrome i'm not mad about it okay hey man hey man so havana

00:35:16

syndrome becomes national news many people start theorizing about what's going on some people

00:35:21

theorize the symptoms like karen kilgariff said are all in the mind one of those people don't know

00:35:28

but i mean i don't think it's not like they're imagined i think that they could have lots of

00:35:33

causes oh i see what you're saying okay you don't think that it's okay got it no no i think i've

00:35:37

having had a very terrible migraine i know exactly like a lot of those symptoms sound very similar

00:35:43

got it to me yes one of those people is robert below a professor of neurology from ucla he told

00:35:50

the BBC that he thinks the syndrome is actually just a quote what they now calling a mass psychogenetic condition aka mass hysteria which they don use the term anymore Right So he also calls it contagious stress He says that most psychogenetic conditions stem

00:36:08

from a stressful situation, such as fucking working in Cuba. Everything that's happening in our world today.

00:36:17

The world. Yeah. Below says that the symptoms of Havana syndrome are real. So the symptoms are real. However,

00:36:23

they are from stress. And then the psychogenetic condition affects masses of people when reports

00:36:29

of the syndrome spread. So like the bigger news becomes, the more people experience it.

00:36:34

Yeah. People become, quote, hyper aware and fearful, and they start exhibiting the same

00:36:39

symptoms. He says it's similar to how some people may feel sick after they're told they've eaten

00:36:44

tainted food, even when there was nothing wrong with what they ate. Yeah. And then I looked up a

00:36:49

bunch of examples of mass hysteria because I think it's fascinating. Another example is that

00:36:55

when telephones were first used widely at the turn of the 20th century, quote, numerous telephone

00:37:03

operators became sick with concussion like symptoms attributed to acoustic shock. So they

00:37:11

were like the something in the waves of the telephone is making me sick. Yep. Right. And it

00:37:17

was just like them having to adapt to this new technology that right didn't understand or being

00:37:22

afraid of it yeah yeah so other and it's in your head it's in your ears it's in your head but the

00:37:29

symptoms are real like you make yourself sick almost i'm not saying it's in your head like

00:37:34

it's fake i'm saying the it's taking place it's not your arm it's your brain hurts yeah dizzy

00:37:40

the things that are happening are literally in your head but the people actually but the people

00:37:44

who think they've eaten something wrong, that's in their stomach. Like they get nauseous and sick.

00:37:50

Correct. We're saying the same thing. I'm not saying I'm saying that these people,

00:37:55

when you believe you could have it, that the pain you're experiencing and the symptoms

00:38:01

are things that are neurologically based. Yes. Yes. That's what I mean. Got it. So other examples are the laughing plague. There's a meowing plague where a bunch of nuns

00:38:11

started fucking meowing steven that one's for you uh so sorry but can i just tell you that yeah

00:38:17

the laughing thing last night we were ordering pizza and you know lucifer's pizza yeah so good

00:38:23

i'm reading all the different kinds of pizza that we can order yeah one of the and i'm reading them

00:38:29

up vegetarian yeah it's whatever their names are yeah and i get down and i go the ring burner

00:38:35

and then start reading and i get to i get to jalapenos which is like two ingredients in

00:38:42

and i start laughing that's terrible name it's the worst name why would you call her i start laughing

00:38:48

my niece maura starts fucking laughing and we're like i'm like oh my god i can't believe it and

00:38:54

then i can't stop laughing it was like church my dad we couldn't tell if he was paying attention or

00:38:58

not because there was football game on but i was like it was like i was about to get in trouble and

00:39:04

I couldn't stop laughing. It was so hilarious. And then the three of us, me, Laura and Nora all

00:39:10

started laughing so hard. It was hilarious. But anyway, that's we had our own mini hysteria of

00:39:15

just that's how it goes. That's exactly what it's like. Like one person starts doing it and then

00:39:20

everyone else, which is the most fun like thing ever. There's a dancing plague, which sounds great.

00:39:26

But then of course, there's the satanic panic, which is also mass hysteria. There's the war of

00:39:31

worlds from Orson Welles and the Salem witch trials. So listen, not all mass hysteria events

00:39:37

are fun, like a laughing plague. We I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do the meowing nuns

00:39:43

at some point in the future, please. And go deep. Okay. And do an impression of what they sounded

00:39:49

like for 60 minutes. I will do it, please. Yeah. So some suggest, Karen, that the Havana syndrome

00:39:56

may be linked to chemicals used in pesticides, insecticides, and nerve gas. Cuba did launch an

00:40:04

aggressive campaign against our foes, the mosquitoes. My favorite murder's biggest foe.

00:40:13

Mosquitoes in 2016, because remember the Zika virus? So they did an aggressive campaign against

00:40:20

mosquitoes and spraying in and around offices and diplomatic residences. So that's a possibility.

00:40:28

Yeah. Or a chemical reaction. A possibility. Imagine the possibilities. This is serious. Okay. Others wonder if the Cuban government is using some sort of weapon

00:40:40

on U.S. personnel, which isn't that far-fetched because it's no secret that the U.S. and Cuba

00:40:46

have had a strained and strange relationship for decades. So this all stems from 1959 when Fidel Castro overthrows the U.S.-backed government in Havana

00:40:55

and turns it into a socialist state. Castro becomes allies with the Soviet Union.

00:41:01

And according to the BBC, Cuba is established as a, quote, major Soviet listening station.

00:41:08

You know, there's that whole Cold War thing, which is the Cold War thing. Go into it.

00:41:14

in the history. Explain it to me, please. So in 2014, Vladimir Putin visits Cuba and suggests

00:41:22

a listening station reopen. And the next year, Obama restores diplomatic relations with Cuba,

00:41:29

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But because these events are so close, some wonder if Cuba is

00:41:33

actually collecting intelligence on the US for Russia, which might give people headaches.

00:41:37

Well, people believe the answer is in our favorite form of cooking, microwaves. Those microwaves.

00:41:46

Yeah. Delicious microwaves. So which is a type of electromagnetic radiation. So besides causing some of the symptoms of that syndrome one former UK intelligence official tells the BBC that microwaves can be used to illuminate electronic devices to extract signals or identify and track them So according to the BBC

00:42:08

this theory stems from World War Two, when there are reports of people being able to hear something

00:42:12

when a nearby radar is switched on and begin sending microwaves into the sky. So fast forward

00:42:18

to the Cold War, when Professor James Lynn conducts experiments to figure out how microwaves affect

00:42:23

the human brain. And he does the thing that I fucking love when scientists do, which is

00:42:28

experiments on himself. Yes, like if you're not most honest, it really is. So he sits in a room

00:42:34

puts an antenna pointed at the back of his head. Someone sends pulses of microwaves through the

00:42:39

antenna. He finds that a single pulse of a microwave sounds like a zip or a clicking finger.

00:42:45

So it does sound like something and there is like a sensation, like a bird chirping,

00:42:50

he says, in your brain. And it's produced in the head rather than as a sound wave coming from the

00:42:57

outside. So it seems like it's coming from inside the brain. Yeah, exactly. He theorized that the

00:43:03

soft tissue of the brain is absorbing the microwave energy and converting it into a pressure wave

00:43:08

moving inside the head, which makes me think of the fact that Vince will not stand near the

00:43:14

microwave when the door is open. Do you do that too? Yep. I have to move away. It's because they

00:43:19

were i remember when they were like invented and first put into homes right and my parents wouldn't

00:43:24

get one for years yeah they were like let's just see yeah i think let's just see how it goes and

00:43:29

then vince told me that his family had the one they bought in like 1978 until his dad died like

00:43:37

a couple years ago and like you just keep the same microwave but it probably does have yeah

00:43:42

okay if i if i open the door without pressing stop he like yells at me yeah Yes. Old school. So today there are around 200 people suffering from the Havana syndrome.

00:43:55

200 people, Karen. Yeah. Okay. All right. And the US government is trying to figure out what's going

00:44:01

on. One official says it's quote, the most difficult intelligence challenge they've ever

00:44:06

faced. But there's no real evidence that the Havana syndrome is even real. So they're on your

00:44:12

side, partly because so many of the patients have completely different symptoms. So it's not like

00:44:18

if I feel like if everyone had this symptom, it would be obvious, but they don't. And so many

00:44:23

people are misdiagnosed with Havana syndrome. The State Department tried to get some answers by

00:44:28

sponsoring a US National Academics of Science study into the Havana syndrome. In December 2020,

00:44:35

they reported that, quote, directed high energy pulsed microwaves were most likely responsible

00:44:41

for some of the cases. And they noted that Russia has studied microwave technology more than any

00:44:48

other fucking country in the world. Okay. So even though they sponsored the study, the State

00:44:54

Department currently says they believe the report is a quote, plausible hypothesis. But they haven't

00:45:00

found any further evidence to support it. I mean, you know, it's making me think of on like the

00:45:06

History Channel or some I watched a special one time about and this was a while ago about how they

00:45:11

were developing whether it was for military use or for police use which is very frightening

00:45:18

like different things were like they were sound wave things have you seen those where it's like

00:45:23

if they point them it's for its quote-unquote crowd control yes like if they point it like

00:45:29

you shit your pants like it it the sound wave is such a low vibration I think that was one of them

00:45:36

or they just make you freeze like it scrambles you. Yeah. I'm not saying that I don't doubt that there are devious people out there, you know, making weapons or technology that could really affect other human beings negatively.

00:45:53

I absolutely believe in that. But I do think in this day and age, especially, everything has this kind of fevered fervor, like people are just jumping on bandwagons.

00:46:05

Yeah. all the fuck over the place in this way. What are you talking about, unvaccinated people?

00:46:12

What do you talk about? The 20th video I've seen on Twitter of people. I just watched this video of this fucking idiot

00:46:18

trying to confront a guy who was getting a booster. And it's like, you're absolutely doing this

00:46:24

for like online clout. Yeah. And you look like a complete idiot. Yeah. Like it's, there's, we just live in this very weird,

00:46:32

this world where people are so affected by social media and yeah they're easily led yes they're sheeple uh everybody but us except us

00:46:44

and people who listen to this podcast right who are all vaccinated the weird thing to me

00:46:49

is that uh this so this dude a study led by this dude douglas h smith who's the director

00:46:56

for the center for brain injury and repair at the university of pennsylvania who looked at a 21 cases of this he and his team found signs of brain damage like what you can't

00:47:11

you can't do on your own as a like no that's not a migraine that's a totally different thing that's

00:47:16

like yeah you're right that's my theory goes out the window when there's actual like tissues yeah

00:47:22

an mri that are shown yeah have been affected so they but they saw no signs of impact to the

00:47:28

patient's skull, a trauma they referred to as immaculate concussion, which is a rad punk rock

00:47:35

band. It's a little bit, a little catchy, a little too catchy in my taste. Yeah. They determined that

00:47:41

the injuries resembled concussions like those suffered by soldiers struck by roadside bombs

00:47:46

in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the State Department set up a task force to help personnel suffering

00:47:52

from Havana syndrome, which they're now calling unexplained health incidents because I don't,

00:47:58

because I think it'll incite another war if they call it the Havana syndrome. And they're not calling it attacks.

00:48:05

What do you mean inside another war? Well, I just don't think they want to call it a attack or the Havana syndrome because

00:48:12

Oh, like blaming. Yeah. Like it just puts the blame on someone. So regardless of what's causing it, I will

00:48:19

say Gordon Carrera said in his BBC article, quote, the mystery of Havana syndrome could

00:48:24

be its real power. The ambiguity and fear it spreads act as a multiplier. making more and more people wonder if they are suffering.

00:48:33

And it's maybe developed a life of its own. And it's maybe affecting politics on its own as well.

00:48:39

Just in the past year, reports of an outbreak in Hanoi, Vietnam, delayed President, sorry, delayed Vice President Kamala Harris's visit by a few hours.

00:48:49

One can dream. In September, President Biden signed into law a bill to compensate victims,

00:48:56

despite there being no formal explanation for the Havana syndrome. Cheryl Rofer, a former chemist at the Los Alamos National Laboratory, says, quote,

00:49:06

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and no evidence has been offered to support the existence of this mystery weapon.

00:49:16

Yeah. Meanwhile, experts at the CIA called the Havana Syndrome one of the most confounding medical and espionage mysteries to involve American personnel overseas since the Cold War.

00:49:27

and some people just think it could all be in the mind and that is the mystery of the Havana

00:49:36

syndrome conspiracy that's it is it's definitely fascinating I guess you know my cynicism about

00:49:42

this comes from is having had epilepsy since I was 27 yeah and I've had seizures where

00:49:50

I don't come out of it quickly. So I'm kind of in the seizing state, but conscious. And it's a very

00:50:00

strange sensation and experience. And the sounds are very upsetting. And there's a whole thing that

00:50:08

goes with it that if I had a, you know, like some sort of like a government job or whatever,

00:50:15

I would have been like, what the fuck was that? But I was just a podcaster in my house or whatever.

00:50:20

where it kind of was it because it's something happening in your brain and the brain is this

00:50:26

mysterious organ that we barely know anything about yeah and so the explanations it's just so

00:50:32

irritating that it's not like this rash and then you can do all the tests or whatever it's like

00:50:37

the brain is so mysterious and or or things with hearing or balance or whatever where you know yeah

00:50:44

I think we all know people that have gotten vertigo. Yes. Vertigo. And like, it took a while for it to go away.

00:50:52

And that, I mean, what do you hear when you're, I didn't know there was like a hearing aspect

00:50:56

to it. If for this last one where I didn't come out of it very quickly, I was like there seizing

00:51:02

for a while and it almost sounded like really heavy techno music. I would have never listened to voluntarily.

00:51:09

Like there was like, it was like, it was a really upsetting. very loud and kind of grindy sound now coming out of it it could have been me literally like

00:51:22

grinding my teeth it could have been like all of the um involuntary physical reactions when you're

00:51:28

having a seizure it could have been a lot of different things it was just like it was kind of

00:51:32

a different new experience it was pretty scary and that's the thing about when something happens

00:51:37

that's neurological it's so fucking scary because you can't look at it and other people can't look

00:51:43

at it and there's very few tests like that you know the mystery of it is very upsetting

00:51:49

and very stressful so if it's a stress-based thing yeah or if that's one of the theories

00:51:54

it creates stress it's like it's uh you know it's like one of those things that the laughing plague

00:52:01

it's people start laughing and then they can't stop and no one else can stop and then that it

00:52:06

like builds on itself yeah same with a neurological issue where if you have a thing that's very

00:52:12

explainable just maybe the people weren't there in the room to explain it yeah it's just the one

00:52:18

person i don't know no that just makes me yeah that makes that makes me feel a lot more like

00:52:23

i think empathy for that of like what a terrifying thing it is when your brain is doing something you have no control over and you can explain it to someone in the doctor's

00:52:36

office but they can't test it and they can't they can't test your blood and be like yeah you have

00:52:41

this or that it's just yeah misfiring it's misfiring and like there's there are times where

00:52:48

they're you know so i i actually really do i'm being cynical and simultaneously i have a lot of

00:52:53

empathy yeah for people who either have gone through this or think that's what it is because

00:52:58

until they know they're not going to know right and that's a it is a terrible feeling and i

00:53:03

know that feeling yeah and then to have to retire from your career because of whatever is happening

00:53:09

that no one can explain is is probably just fucking heartbreaking yeah it really is but you

00:53:16

know what then it makes me think of and this is not directly related but it reminds me in the 90s

00:53:21

remember epstein bar where it was that disease where people were just exhausted yeah and they

00:53:26

were just like so tired that they couldn't go to work they couldn't it's like that doesn't get

00:53:30

talked about anymore the way it did it was such a news story back yeah of like this thing that

00:53:36

people were just kind of like falling ill with. Yeah. And inexplicably. And I, yeah, I just wonder, I wonder, I also kind of go like their bioengineering food.

00:53:47

Right. Like, you know, that thing of people always go like, oh, when I was growing up, nobody

00:53:51

had a gluten allergy. It's like, right. Because we were eating food from the ground Yeah Like that was before they you know like it not the same Or like because shit wasn reported or because Yeah

00:54:05

Because we were eating a more balanced diet. It's not like it just wasn't fucking there.

00:54:10

Yeah. It's like the chemicals and the. Right. I don't know. It's so scary. It's chemicals, chemical weapons, politics, the way things like you just can't know things.

00:54:22

It's scary. it's scary in every direction modern life is very scary truly that's why we love true crime

00:54:28

that's right it's explainable it is exactly um that was really fascinating i also just i'm like

00:54:35

i don't want us to be spreading no or hysteria no of course not i mean that's why i'm like

00:54:42

prove it yeah but nobody in the government listens to this podcast so i think we're fine

00:54:47

True. True. That's true. I hope. Okay. Or at least aren't getting their facts here.

00:54:55

No, no one gets their facts here. We're the show for people who know the facts and are here to tell us the facts.

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Book your summer vacay today at CheapCaribbean.com. Goodbye. Okay. So this story I'm about to tell you this week,

00:57:26

my friend Kerry O'Donnell, who you know well, he is the co-host of the podcast, Sexy Unique Podcast,

00:57:32

with Laura Marie Shanehals. And he has told me about it for a long time because his family members knew the victim. And so he was like, have you ever

00:57:44

heard of this? My whole family knows about it. And I thought when he told it to me, I thought I knew

00:57:52

which story he was talking about. But then he was like, he suggested it to me again. I go,

00:57:58

Carrie, I did it. And he goes, no, you didn't. He goes, you did this similar one. And he's like,

00:58:04

This this is why you want to do this one. And he explained it. So, yes. So thank you, Carrie, for the suggestion. And this is the murder of Martha Brailsford.

00:58:16

Okay. Herald, an article for patheos.com by Matt Oren, an article for The Telegraph, the local

00:58:56

newspaper by Ann Stewart, Lori Cabot's Wikipedia page, and an article for boston.com by Justin A.

00:59:05

Rice, an article by Juan Gonzalez for the New York Daily News, and a Vice article by Haley E.D.

00:59:14

Hausman. This takes place around in and around Salem, Massachusetts. So it's the middle of the

00:59:20

night on July 12th, 1991. And Boston Ferry Captain Brian Brailsford is laying awake in his bed waiting

00:59:27

for his wife, Martha, to come home. So Brian's job takes him away until late at night or early

00:59:34

in the morning hours. But it is very rare that Martha would be out so late, especially without

00:59:40

calling Brian and letting him know. So after a while, he's like, maybe she got into an accident.

00:59:47

So he calls the local hospital to ask if she's there. The staff there says no one by the name

00:59:53

of Martha Brailsford has been admitted And then shortly after midnight Brian calls Martha twin sister Muriel She works as a librarian in Cambridge And of course the sisters you know are very close They talk all the time So Brian asks Muriel when she last talked to Martha And it was that morning And Martha had told Muriel she was going for a walk around Winter Island which is something that she did habitually

01:00:20

She had a dog named Rudy. She walked her dog all the time. And that was one of her the places she liked to walk. So Muriel is, of course, immediately scared that her sister isn't home and might be missing. Brian assures her everything's going to be all right.

01:00:34

so now it's about one in the morning brian goes to retrace martha's usual walking route on winter

01:00:41

island and look for any sign of her he doesn't find anything he extends the search to nearby

01:00:47

beaches and parks he basically looks for his wife all night long until eight in the morning on july

01:00:53

13th at that point he finally decides to contact the police so at first the police aren't convinced

01:01:00

foul play has taken place um according to them there's a number of reasons why martha may have

01:01:06

left including that she could have a secret lover that her husband doesn't know about

01:01:10

but when another two days go by and there's still no sign of martha the police finally

01:01:15

officially declare her missing so it's standard procedure they they interrogate brian first as

01:01:23

the husband they question him to figure out if he's a suspect he swears he has nothing to do with

01:01:28

Martha's disappearance. He has an alibi for each day that she's since she's been gone. He's been

01:01:34

sleeping at home, working, searching for Martha. And upon further investigation, all of these

01:01:40

alibis check out. But after Brian's questioned, a friend of Martha's goes and basically speaks

01:01:45

privately with the investigators to give them information that she doesn't want Brian to know

01:01:51

about. She tells police that Martha had told her that she planned to go sailing with a friend named

01:01:56

Tom on the day of her disappearance. The friend was afraid to say anything in front of Brian

01:02:02

for fear that he would be jealous or assume the worst when the friend was like, I don't think it

01:02:09

was anything, but I just need you to know that this is like a piece of information he doesn't

01:02:14

know. Okay, so we'll talk about Martha for a second. Martha Brailsford was born May 8th,

01:02:20

1954 in Hackensack, New Jersey. She's an artist and an interior designer. And in the

01:02:26

early 80s she starts dating Brian Brailsford he's a ferry captain in Boston I don't know why I think

01:02:31

that's the most delightful and darling thing hottest of all time hottest he smells so good

01:02:36

like the sea all the time the sea and I you know like kind of like hairy chest maybe a pipe yeah

01:02:43

maybe a hat just like awesome so they get married in 1982 and then in the late 80s they move to

01:02:50

Salem, Massachusetts, because Martha loves the ocean. She wants to live closer to it. And she's

01:02:56

also a descendant of the town's founder, Roger Conant. So Salem seems like the perfect place

01:03:01

for them to settle down. Right. And she fits right in. She does her work as an interior designer

01:03:07

there. She makes lots of friends. And of course, she enjoys her regular walks, sometimes with Rudy,

01:03:13

sometimes by herself, all around Winter Island, which is actually not an island. It's attached by

01:03:19

a strip of land, but it's very close to being in a separate island. Okay. Okay. So after police get

01:03:24

the tip about Martha allegedly sailing with some man named Tom, the police track this friend down

01:03:31

and they identify the man as 46 year old Tom Mamone. So Tom's an engineer for the Parker

01:03:38

Brothers Game Company, and he's also an avid sailor. Police find Tom at the docks at Salem

01:03:44

Willow's Pier. He's working on a sailboat, the Counterpoint, and they ask him about Martha. He

01:03:50

admits to knowing her and he says they often walk their dogs together on Winter Island. He says he

01:03:55

really appreciates Martha's friendship because things have been rough for him since his wife

01:03:59

passed away from cancer the year before. And then he moved to Salem after his wife's death.

01:04:05

When police ask Tom if he's taken Martha sailing recently, he says he has not. The last time Tom

01:04:10

remembers seeing Martha was the Tuesday before when they went for one of their usual walks.

01:04:16

But things are not adding up because why would Martha's friend mention a sailing trip with Tom

01:04:22

to the police if Tom claims the trip never took place? But there's no hard evidence against him

01:04:29

or anyone else. So the questioning basically ends there. In the meantime, with Martha still missing,

01:04:35

her friends and family form a search party looking all over the area for her because

01:04:42

Martha's very popular. She's described by her neighbors as being lovely and friendly.

01:04:47

Everyone's worried. Everybody wants to help look for her. Everyone from local residents to the state police to the Coast Guard, they take to land,

01:04:56

air, sea in search of Martha. But no one can find her. Carrie's mom and Nana were on that search.

01:05:05

No way. Yeah. I'm sure it's like. She was a friend of their. Yeah. Small town. Someone goes missing.

01:05:11

Yeah. They knew her and loved her. And she was a friend. Yeah. So police go back and question Tom two days later.

01:05:18

And this time they visit him at his home. When they knock at the door, a woman answers who identifies herself as Patricia Maimoni, Tom's wife.

01:05:27

Uh-oh. The one who's supposed to be dead from cancer. Yep. So Tom quickly appears behind Patricia.

01:05:35

He tells officers he'll speak to them privately. He ushers his wife away and assures her everything is going to be all right.

01:05:42

So then Tom tells police he fibbed to Martha about his wife dying because he was interested in her.

01:05:47

But why would you lie to the fucking police about it, you dumbass? Right. And also if you interested in a woman why would you tell a lie that disgusting Truly When your wife is fucking alive Like and lives on the island like what are you expecting it a it just it so it beyond the pale in terms of what you

01:06:08

trying to set yourself up as right with that person right it's like not even like we're

01:06:13

separated she's fucking dead like she's dead and you're supposed to pity me and you're supposed to

01:06:19

You're supposed to feel beholden to what I need from you because I'm in a terrible place right now.

01:06:26

Tom admits to having gone sailing with Martha on July 12th, but he claims that he was trying to keep it under wraps so that his wife wouldn't find out.

01:06:36

He then says that after their day of sailing together, Tom dropped Martha off on Winter Island so she could go for a walk by herself.

01:06:44

so again police are not buying this because if tom had dropped martha off on winter island she

01:06:50

could have just walked home it was close to where she left and as suspicious as it all seems without

01:06:56

any sign of martha or any hard evidence against tom they can't arrest him so but it's so suspicious

01:07:04

and it is just so odd that they're like there's this woman has disappeared in like into thin air

01:07:11

and this guy's the only connection they don't know what to do this guy is a liar

01:07:15

yes he is the only connection it's it's such a bad insane look the things and the things that

01:07:23

he's kind of copying to to me it seems like he thinks they're not that big of a deal right or

01:07:29

he thinks he's gonna trick the cops yeah like admitting like hey look i was interested in her

01:07:36

So I told this disgusting guy, like, right, man. Okay, so this is the part that I love and that is amazing.

01:07:47

Desperate for a lead or answers of any kind, and being that this is the infamous town of Salem, Massachusetts,

01:07:54

the local authorities decide to reach out to the high priestess of witches in Salem, Lori Cabot.

01:08:04

Lori! so listen to this shit let's talk about laurie cabot okay she's born in we woke up oklahoma in

01:08:12

1933 and she has her first psychic experience as a child uh when she envisions a seven-year-old boy

01:08:19

falling off his bike and onto a train trestle so she tells the boy's mom that she is she that she

01:08:27

thinks that's where the kid is the mom calls the local sheriff the authorities find the boy on the

01:08:33

train and have to rescue him off of it yes so that's how it's that's how it starts uh so four

01:08:43

years after that laurie moves to boston with her mother where she meets a witch at the boston public

01:08:49

library sounds great because where else would you this is a fucking children's book right here

01:08:54

this is genius and she ends up studying with this witch until she's 16 years old and then by the late

01:09:01

60s, 30-year-old Lori. She's divorced. She has two kids. So she decides to practice witchcraft

01:09:07

again. It was like out of her life for a while. She actually was a dancer at the Latin Quarter

01:09:11

nightclub for a while. Like she had a really fascinating life. And then she was kind of

01:09:17

settled down and got back into her Wiccan practice. So she was living in Salem and she actually was

01:09:24

living across the street from the mayor. So she kept her Wiccan practice as a secret because she

01:09:29

didn't want any trouble she didn't want to get you know she didn't want any extra attention

01:09:33

historically this is a bad town to be a witch in yeah she knew she knew to cover her tracks

01:09:39

but then after her black cat gets stuck in a tree for three days she finally reveals she's a witch

01:09:46

she needs her cat back for her witchcraft and she basically gets some locals to help her rescue it

01:09:51

and basically this story the way it comes out in the newspaper i don't know if like that's the

01:09:57

newspaper version of the story but basically the picture of her clutching her black cat

01:10:03

gets in the newspaper it gets the it becomes like a local news then national news she winds up on

01:10:09

the tonight show with johnny carson talking about witchcraft and practicing witchcraft amazing

01:10:15

she also opens her first witchcraft store the witch shop with two p's and an e love it in 1970

01:10:23

which is like of course perfect year which becomes a hot spot for tourists and witchcraft

01:10:29

enthusiasts and probably practicing witches and wiccans um in salem right so it's a very smart

01:10:37

thematically yep during this time she begins teaching witchcraft a religious so basically

01:10:42

what she teaches is it's a practice combining magic astrology environmentalism but it's all

01:10:49

in a scientific manner. And she teaches it at her shop as well as at Salem State College,

01:10:55

Wellesley College and at Harvard. Wow. She faces a lot of opposition from conservative Christians,

01:11:01

but she asserts that true witchcraft is only used for good as black magic comes back on a witch

01:11:07

threefold. So in addition to teaching classes, she writes several books on the subject,

01:11:14

including The Power of the Witch, The Witch in Every Woman. Oh, there were just two.

01:11:21

And Harry Potter. Witchy witchy. And the classic children's book Harry Potter. No.

01:11:31

Her work in using magic for good dramatically increases Salem's tourism. And today more than 250,000 tourists visit the town each October.

01:11:41

Why haven't we been there? This is my biggest question. Yeah, we we didn't take the time like we should have.

01:11:47

No, we should have. We will. We'll move there. OK, great. In 1977, the governor of Massachusetts, Michael Dukakis, grants Lori the Patriots Award, which is an honor given to civic leaders, distinguished members.

01:12:00

civil servants, community leaders, and others who are dedicated in a significant way to improving the lives of their fellow citizens and their community.

01:12:08

And he names Lori Salem's official witch. And she later renames her third and final brick and mortar witchcraft shop the official witch shop in honor of that title.

01:12:20

Love it. So that's just a little behind the scenes about Lori Cabot. So love that.

01:12:26

Right. so basically police go to her and say can you help us we really we need does anyone know and i would

01:12:33

this is actually the story right here is where i wish i could go and zoom in and pull out and see

01:12:39

what cop knew laurie cabot existed what cop knew her from some bar or something or let

01:12:47

secret warlock yeah what some believer or his mother would go to her on a weekly basis and be

01:12:56

like i need good spells for my to keep my son safe he's a cop or his his wife was like we have to find

01:13:03

martha you have to do anything it takes go ask laurie cabot yeah no she knows and i'll so invite

01:13:08

invite her to thanksgiving while you're at it right oh my god i love it okay so police give

01:13:14

Lori Martha's name, address, and date of birth. And so she takes this information and she has

01:13:21

basically a ritual that she does. I don't know the details of it, but she goes into a trance

01:13:26

and she will later say that she saw Martha out on the water with a man. She sees the man make a

01:13:33

sexual advance at Martha, but as soon as Martha rejects him, the man hits her in the head with a

01:13:38

blunt object. She sees the man tie a weighted belt around Martha's waist and bind her in rope with an

01:13:45

anchor attached and throw her overboard. Oh my God. So Lori tells authorities they're going to find

01:13:51

Martha's body in the water with an anchor still tied to her body. And she believes they'll find

01:13:56

her near a small island and they'll be able to see a lighthouse in the distance from where Martha's

01:14:02

body will be found. Ooh, chills. Yeah. So this vision is so disturbing and so specific that

01:14:09

police go back to question Tom yet again. And wouldn't you know it, Tom changes his story

01:14:15

yet again. This time he says that, yes, he did go sailing with Martha, but after a rogue wave

01:14:22

knocked her off balance, she had fallen overboard. And when he tried to save her,

01:14:28

he was looking in the water and he couldn't see her anywhere so he couldn't save her

01:14:33

police ask tom why he didn't report the accident when it happened and he tells them he panicked in

01:14:40

the moment and he was too scared to say anything uh-huh so now the news is circulating that martha

01:14:47

may have been somehow lost at sea and then basically as people start talking about that

01:14:55

a woman named Rosemary Farmer comes to the police station with some information.

01:15:00

She tells police that she knows Tom Mamone and that she'd taken two sailing trips with him herself.

01:15:07

The first trip, she says, was fun. And the second one was a nightmare. So Tom had given Rosemary the same story about his wife recently dying of cancer.

01:15:17

So, of course, she felt so bad for him and she believed he just needed a friend.

01:15:22

He was just like a sad, lonely man. but when he basically gets her on the boat, he tries to take advantage of that sympathy and tries to have sex with her and

01:15:32

she rejects him. And basically after she rejects him, she felt so unsafe that she almost jumped overboard and swam back to shore

01:15:42

herself because he was scared her so badly. But before she can do that, Tom backs off,

01:15:48

turns the boat around, brings her back to shore. What a sick fuck to like take. a woman in the middle of the water. There's no escape.

01:15:58

Right? And yes, it's the kind of thing that I think you wouldn't think that way about a date like that. No. Because a guy

01:16:05

with a boat is what? He has money. It's kind of like you're preppy. You must be kind of successful. Oh, I was thinking of a fucking like dinghy.

01:16:14

Oh no, this is a sailboat. Oh, it was like, okay. It's very white bready. It's very, you know, it's very

01:16:21

Ralph Lauren fucking Sperry top cider shoes and a sweater and it's like there's a

01:16:27

kind of affluence aspect to it. Okay. Which going along with that there's like an inherent trust

01:16:35

like a rich guy wouldn't blank blank blank. Right. A rich widow who's like heart is broken.

01:16:41

Yes. He's playing the wounded the wounded man. Okay. So Rosemary decided not to file a police report

01:16:49

after this because she just wanted to put the whole thing behind her totally understandable

01:16:53

but now she's so afraid the same thing that happened to her has happened to martha

01:16:58

with a much worse ending yeah good for her for coming forward yeah so okay then on thursday july

01:17:05

18th about 11 in the morning a lobsterman named hooper goodwin is fishing off the coast of marble

01:17:11

head massachusetts which is just east of salem when something gets tangled up in his line and

01:17:17

when he hoists the lineup, he finds a woman's body. Wrapped around the body is a weighted scuba belt and an anchor tied to her by a rope Holy shit And off in the distance visible from the spot where the body is found is a lighthouse

01:17:33

The entire scene is just as Lori Cabot predicted down to the last detail. Fuck. The body's decomposed so much at this point because it's been underwater for so long.

01:17:44

It's basically just a skeleton, but investigators are able to use dental records to confirm that it is the body of Martha Brailsford.

01:17:53

The autopsy reveals that she most likely died by drowning, although she did sustain at least five blows to her skull and jaw.

01:18:04

It was a violent attack, and he put her in the water alive, weighted down. Horrifying.

01:18:09

Oh, my God. it's clear that whatever took place was deliberate and violent and with martha's body recovered police

01:18:16

are finally able to get an arrest warrant for tom maymoney so the police go to tom's house to arrest

01:18:22

him but he's not there he's already made a run for it only minutes before the authorities had shown up

01:18:29

tom's wife patricia however is at home so the police tell her that if she knows where he's going

01:18:35

She needs to tell them immediately. She has no idea where he is. He left without an explanation.

01:18:42

And she's devastated. She's had no idea that her husband has been harassing these other women.

01:18:49

She had no idea that he was saying that she had died of cancer. And it turned out Tom had been

01:18:55

lying to his wife for years. He told her he held several college degrees. That was a lie. He said

01:19:01

he had been in the army he never served and when police ask her about the cancer story she reveals

01:19:07

that tom had been married three times before he married her and that his second wife did have

01:19:13

cancer but that she had survived it uh he he couldn't i mean suspicions abound about him and

01:19:21

the way he treated his wife you've got to imagine right like i don't want to horrifying i mean yeah

01:19:26

just awful and a compulsive liar yeah and clearly violent me saying my favorite thing clearly a

01:19:34

sociopath so she tells police she'll help them find tom in any way she can but she really does

01:19:39

have no idea where he um may have headed now that he's on the run she didn't she didn't have any

01:19:45

theories about where he might have gone so what do police do they go right back over to laurie

01:19:51

Cabot's house and asked her to help them find Tom. So she takes his name, his birth date and his address.

01:19:59

She goes back into a trance state and she has a vision of Tom shaving off his mustache.

01:20:06

She tells investigators that she believes he's making a run for the Canadian border.

01:20:11

And so to help slow him down, Lori casts a spell over a straw doll that she makes of Tom.

01:20:18

Yeah. She wraps the doll in a white cord and she sees that he's going to do something stupid to get himself caught before he's able to cross the border.

01:20:28

Oh, shit. And two days later, on Saturday, July 20th, 1991, the state police in Maine get a call from a local caretaker about a strange man that's been lurking outside one of his cabins.

01:20:41

And when police respond to the call, they find Tom Amoni in a black sedan parked just outside the cabin.

01:20:50

He had fled north to Maine and just shy of the Canadian border. he decided he was going to break into a nearby cabin to rest.

01:20:58

So he gets discovered at the cabin and he's arrested by Maine state police for breaking and entering.

01:21:04

But when they look him up in their system, they find that he's wanted for murder in Massachusetts.

01:21:09

So the Maine police hand Tom over to the Massachusetts authorities and he is held in prison on a second degree murder charge.

01:21:17

OK, great. So Tom Momoni's trial begins in 1993. he sticks to his rogue wave story asserting that he's an excellent sailor and they tried his

01:21:27

hardest to save Martha but that ultimately he was no match for the sea this does not explain how

01:21:34

Martha ended up with a weighted scuba belt around her waist and an anchor tied to her so it's kind

01:21:39

of stupid that he thought he was just going to stick to his own lie totally prosecutors put

01:21:45

Rosemary Farmer on the stand and she testifies about her experience with Tom aboard his boat,

01:21:52

recounts how he made sexual advances toward her and about how unsafe she felt until he returned

01:21:57

her to shore. So the violence of this man, like Rosemary Farmer basically came right up against

01:22:04

that exact same situation. And for some reason, like he just didn't have the explosion that he had

01:22:12

when Martha was on his boat. It's so frightening. Like she just, she was right there with the exact

01:22:17

same thing and was so scared she was going to jump overboard away from him. That's so terrifying.

01:22:23

And there is a second unnamed woman who tells a similar story. So basically there is a pattern of

01:22:30

Tom's predatorial behavior. And what Carrie told me, his Nana testified in this trial. Yes.

01:22:39

the family went there and the nana testified because martha's dog rudy was found tied up

01:22:46

like i think at the docks or wherever and that basically the nana said she would have never left her dog for that long yeah so so chances are it was like jump on my boat will go around the the harbor or something

01:23:01

like she wasn't planning on having a sailing trip with him and she just tied her dog up don't bring

01:23:07

the dog dogs aren't allowed because she probably knew that that dog would have fucking defended her

01:23:12

Yes, I bet. Right. Good point. Yes. So the evidence against Tom is overwhelming. The jury finds him guilty of second degree murder of Martha Brailsford, and he is sentenced to life in prison.

01:23:23

So in 2006, after 15 years in prison, Tom becomes eligible for parole. And at his parole hearing, he again maintains the story about the rogue wave.

01:23:33

Dude. But the board members don't buy it. He's denied parole. He returns to prison. And over the course of the next few years, Tom defends himself at two more parole hearings. His stories are riddled with lies. And at one point, Tom even tries to pin the blame for Martha's death on her husband, Brian. So her husband, Brian, has been in attendance for all of these hearings. He calls out the ridiculousness of Tom's claim, saying Tom should definitely be in prison for the rest of his life.

01:24:03

The poor man. I know that's so horrible. But the parole board agrees. And with one board member even calling the proceedings an exercise in futility.

01:24:13

In his third and final attempt at parole in 2012, the parole board chair calls Tom a pathological liar.

01:24:21

Yeah, it just it never worked. I mean, it wasn't working. I know this sounds crazy, but it's almost good that he keeps his stupid fucking lie up.

01:24:30

Because yes, when you accept responsibility, that's when parole is likely. But if you keep if you take no responsibility, keep bullshitting like you fucking are.

01:24:41

Yeah. Like no, which is the classic, the classic move of a sociopath, which is I'm smarter than everybody.

01:24:47

I'm going to outsmart this. I know. And look how wronged I was or whatever. Yes.

01:24:52

I'm the victim. On Wednesday, October 18th, 2017, the now 72-year-old Tom Mamone succumbs to a chronic illness that he'd been battling for several months, and he passes away at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston.

01:25:08

Author Margaret Press, who wrote a book about the case entitled A Scream on the Water, A True Story of Murder in Salem, says this about Tom's death.

01:25:18

Quote, although his death won't undo any of the harm he caused, I hope that the families who were so tragically impacted by his life can now in some small measure put this sad chapter behind them.

01:25:29

And Carrie told me that there is a seashell water fountain in the town of Juniper Beach that was erected in Martha Brailsford's memory.

01:25:39

And that is the tragic story of the murder of Martha Brailsford and the powers of the high priestess of witches, Lori Cabot.

01:25:46

damn right yeah why did you think you had done that one before that doesn't sound like anything

01:25:52

you've done i don't know because i'm losing it because i'm very tired i feel like there was

01:26:02

maybe there was a story of a woman who was taken onto a boat and disappeared there was no obviously

01:26:09

know which uh which element or any anything like that we need more which element stories

01:26:15

also just the idea where it's this woman who has powers and she's like yes i will help you

01:26:25

apparently she helped the police after that was the first time they'd ever gone to her for to help

01:26:29

and they went to her a couple times after that and she helped with other cases but the idea that

01:26:35

it's like if you would like the idea that witches are like evil and this and that it's like no no

01:26:41

they're very powerful women with vision and if you actually you know go to them with respect they

01:26:47

could actually help you it's just like dreamy i feel like we've been burned our generation of

01:26:53

because there were so many like psychics in the 80s who like came forward to try to help with

01:26:59

these fucked up cases that they could they had no fucking business being even part of and did very

01:27:07

like negatively impacted them in a lot of ways and there's a lot of bad people a lot of con men

01:27:13

pretending to have rights and doing it for the money and the psychic friends network and all

01:27:18

that stuff that yeah so to hear a positive one where something actually took place that like

01:27:23

helped everything and was correct i mean more than anything yeah um it's very like it makes me

01:27:31

it gives me good feelings what are those called me too happy me feeling it's yeah that might that

01:27:37

might be the feeling of happiness or that kind of like you know i don't know that that kind of um

01:27:44

because carrie told me and it was after it was after halloween and he was like you could have

01:27:48

done it for halloween and i was like shoot why didn't i why didn't i listen to you it's so weird

01:27:53

But I think it was just like that. I don't know. And I think it's also really sensitive when people when it's like a friend of the family.

01:28:01

Carrie said that he and his mom were doing something one day. He was one year old and he they went to Martha's house to go pick something up or go look at something.

01:28:13

And his mom and Nana were some of the last people to see her alive Oh my God So I think I was afraid to do it wrong or to do it in a way that was respectful or something

01:28:25

Disrespectful, yeah. When it's that close, you know, people think it's a good idea, but it's like, you know, it's a lot.

01:28:31

We're always careful about that. We try to be, but then, you know, it's like then we get distracted and we're talking about Pringles and it's like, you know, that's our.

01:28:40

Well, that's respectful of Pringles. We're human. And also, you know what this made me think of it's unrelated, but there's an antique store in Petaluma.

01:28:49

And one time I was looking through it and they had a this little white book. And on the cover in like embossed gold writing, it just said white magic.

01:29:04

And I didn't get it. I think it's because I was broke at the time. Right. I would kill for that.

01:29:11

I mean, because it looked old and it looked like a book of like white magic spells.

01:29:17

Oh, did I tell you that sounds amazing. Did I tell you that I stole a packet of tarot cards from a Barnes and Noble when I was in

01:29:26

high school? And then someone was like, that's bad luck. You can't steal tarot cards.

01:29:33

And I was like, well, OK. And then just like left them on a table somewhere for someone else to buy.

01:29:37

someone just just burning sage all around yeah it's fine if you find them from a fucking

01:29:43

shitty delinquent teenager who stole them from a corporation now i'm like well it was a corporation

01:29:49

shouldn't be saying it's all about that energy it's everything's about energy it was bad energy

01:29:54

get that energy going in a positive direction that's right uh wow that was a i feel like that

01:30:00

was the best thanksgiving episode we've ever done i don't remember any of the others but

01:30:05

I feel like, yeah, exactly. I don't either. But I do feel like we just represented the heart of America in the best way possible. And one of the things that are the things that are good about this country, which is we made one of the worst national holidays into something a little better.

01:30:23

we hope you have a wonderful day whatever way you celebrate whatever you're doing

01:30:31

happy Thanksgiving thanks for hanging out with us deal with your family or don't

01:30:38

it's up to you or go get some Pringles and just be like I've never had this flavor before

01:30:43

what day is it? It's Thursday who fucking cares also stay sexy and don't get murdered

01:30:49

goodbye Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

01:31:02

Associate producer, Alejandra Keck. Engineer and mixer, Stephen. Ray Morris. Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray.

01:31:09

Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.

01:31:14

And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritemurder and Twitter at myfavemurder.

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And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to MyFavoriteMurder.com.

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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgi

302 - Whistles & Flags

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