00:00:00
This is exactly right. It's here. The participating U.S. Taco Bell locations for a limited time only.
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While supplies last, contact Store for availability. Your husband is not who you think he is.
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Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.
00:00:44
I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
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He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off.
00:00:57
And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:07
10-10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.
00:01:13
A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics.
00:01:21
I screamed, get down, get down, those are shots. a tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery
00:01:28
that may or may not have been political that may have been about sex listen to Rorschach Murder at City Hall
00:01:34
on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.
00:02:02
The sixth anniversary episode. Oh my God! What? What? What have we been doing for the past six years?
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Six years just bullshitting around with some vocal fry? How dare you? So many things have happened in the past six years.
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life-changing, mundane, amazing, kind of cool, very cool, etc. A pandemic. Oh, a pandemic.
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There's that. There's that one too. You know, so many memories. It's been a real ride.
00:02:36
That's for sure. Yeah. I feel like we're going to look back on this in six more years and be like,
00:02:41
why did we do this another six years? And then be like, talk to me at the year 10 anniversary.
00:02:48
Yeah. Oh, wait, no, that would have been year 12. Right. But who's counting? I think not counting is the key.
00:02:56
Yeah. I don't fucking, I never pay attention to anniversaries. My mom just texted me, your brother's birthday is tomorrow.
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Like, I can't get, I cannot get anyone's birthday, even my nephew's. I'm just so bad at that.
00:03:10
Vince and I have to like pull his wedding ring off and look at the date inscribed in it to know when our wedding anniversary is.
00:03:16
Well, it's good that you got that done. then you can't. At least you know yourself well enough
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to be like, I need this reminder. It's who I am. Yeah. Who cares? I don't give a shit.
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You're thinking about other stuff. Do you know what? I celebrate every fucking day.
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Like it's Father's Day. That's what my dad always says. Every day is Father's Day.
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When your grown kids want to talk to you. When you actually still communicate. Right.
00:03:42
With your father. Yeah, it's a true celebration. I mean, it is. That is the way to live.
00:03:47
That's the way to be. Truly. How are you being? How are you living? How are you dealing?
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I'm still a little bit on vacation, so I'm doing really good. I'm really happy for you.
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I'm not like for 2022. I feel the difference. I'm insisting upon feeling a difference.
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I think there can be a difference. I don't think we have to be the victims of our circumstances.
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I think we can get proactive in even just the way we approach everything. but that's easy for me to say because I get to smell the salt air every day.
00:04:19
When you showed me the view from the balcony where you're saying of the beach and the palms swaying in the trees.
00:04:26
The palms swaying in the trees. Yeah, I'm at a very special resort that's tree. There's trees planted inside palm trees.
00:04:36
Look, it's a Dr. Seuss resort. It's fucking all kinds of crazy things are going on.
00:04:42
It's called the Lorax. And we all just hang around with star belly snitches and get it done.
00:04:48
I love it. No, I mean, I think I think things have been so stressful for every person on the planet.
00:04:55
Yeah. That the trying to be every day is Father's Day with your attitude is is you got to be keep it in front of mind.
00:05:04
Yeah, for sure. Like how grateful. You know, it really helped me in the past like week is talking to my therapist and being like, I have this to do list and it makes me want to take a nap.
00:05:15
I can't fucking deal with anything. I can't do the I can't do any of it. And she was like, why do you think you have to do it all at once?
00:05:23
And so this is so simple. But I did one load of laundry instead of the three that I had to do.
00:05:29
And I fucking did it. And it took me two days of turning the dryer back on and trying to drive back on.
00:05:36
Yeah. But I did a load of laundry and it was fucking fine. I don't have to do it all at once.
00:05:42
No, one a day. Yeah, I heard that's called it's an it's paralysis by analysis where you just get to or perfectionism.
00:05:50
You just get to if I can't do it all, then I shouldn't do anything at all. And that not that not it You got to chip away Yeah Chip away Paralysis by what Neuralysis Paralysis by analysis which means you just overthink It another way of saying overthinking Got it I like it Instead we chipping away like little chipmunks chipping away That how we got to six years That right Right Week after week just one week at a time Panicking about the next week constantly
00:06:21
yeah sure yes but hey isn't that the zest of life the panic add writing a book now great let's do it
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oh yeah why not in sydney and australia while we're writing a book great pilot on yes the
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answer is yes shonda rhimes a year of yes we're doing it every day is shonda rhimes day when you
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try harder than that. That's what we say. You know, we say that. That's right. Are you fucking
00:06:51
watching the show of one of my favorite books that I mentioned a million times here, which I
00:06:56
think you read Station Eleven? I had started Station Eleven. Yes. On HBO. It's really beautifully
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done, except for they got to the part where the traveling theater group where I was like, this is
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too much like college. I have to dip. Sorry. Gotta go. It's so like college and like in the book,
00:07:16
they're like, you know, first violin has beef with second flute because he once said this thing about
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that. And like, you know, the fucking actor from Shakespeare used to fuck third guitar. And so they
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don't talk to each other. Like there's just so much, even in the end days, there's beef.
00:07:34
of course and drama yeah but no everyone i know especially writers love it and talk about it a lot
00:07:42
so i know i have to keep going and mckenzie what's her last name phillips powers austin powers
00:07:49
mckenzie austin powers mckenzie davis that's right steven thank you mckenzie davis is so
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fucking incredible in it she's such an incredible actor sector and the little girl who plays her as
00:08:03
a little girl. I love it. And it's not even true to the book, which usually, of course, drives
00:08:09
assholes like me crazy, but I still it's still like works and it's perfect. Yeah. But read the
00:08:14
book. It's it's well, it's beautifully shot. I don't know the book, but from what I experienced,
00:08:20
the first episode hooked me right in and then I went right along. But also, and this is the kind
00:08:26
of thing to keep in mind if you're in a pandemic and you're watching a show about apocalyptic end
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days you have to you know go gently into that i bad night i could understand why people would be
00:08:39
hesitant to watch it but it doesn't feel like now it feels like um you know good different
00:08:46
oh even um himish patel who plays the character jivan in it is who's like the initial guy who
00:08:55
tries to save the dude on stage who was also in that movie yesterday where everyone forgets
00:09:01
the Beatles existed and he, he's so fucking good. I, yeah, he's great. I have a crush on him. He's
00:09:07
like such a great actor. He's really good. And he's really good in that show. Yeah. Love him.
00:09:13
Yeah. Good job, everybody. Good job. Love it. Had to say it. I want to tell you about
00:09:18
the podcast I just stumbled on. It's real short. It's really satisfying. I heard about it from my
00:09:26
friend and Donahue, the pride of Canada and Donahue. Of course. It's a podcast called Sweet
00:09:31
Bobby. And it is a catfishing story. Unlike anything you've ever heard in your life. It's
00:09:38
holy shit. It's really something and you have to listen to it. And it's the host is Alexi
00:09:44
Mostras. I hope I'm saying his name right. It's really great. What's the like, can you give us
00:09:49
like a brief? I know you probably don't want to do any spoilers, but like a little giveaway.
00:09:53
I'm not going to do any spoilers. It's just someone gets catfished. And the host, Alexi, actually says it in the beginning. I'm about to do the thing you should never do in a suspenseful story. I'm going to tell you right now she's being catfished because that's how not even that. That's not the shock. It's like it's really worth listening to and hearing the story because, again, it goes into why do people do what they do?
00:10:21
It reminds me of like watching a TV show in the pandemic about a pandemic. And that would be hard.
00:10:27
But I'm so afraid of catfishing that it's almost like hard to watch a catfishing or listen to a catfishing story.
00:10:35
Horrible. It's your most vulnerable. You think whatever it is, you think you're falling in love with a person who isn't that.
00:10:42
That's everyone's fear. Yeah. Like we all have trust issues in whatever way. And that's that kind of thing where they're telling you everything you want to hear and you think this is it. I finally met this person. And it's that's not even a real person.
00:10:56
I love the stories that we're all coming to, like all of us kids who were raised, you know, who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s at the beginning of having like real access to the Internet and realizing that our best friend from Florida, who we used to chat on AIM with all day and all night because they were just like us, was not a 14 year old girl like you who just wanted to escape her small town.
00:11:22
It was a creepy fucking dude. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Belinda doesn't exist. Yes. I mean, that's I never had to experience that. I was so past that. I was too old for that kind of growing up online thing.
00:11:39
Yeah. So this story to me is even more shocking because it's like, oh, Jesus Christ.
00:11:44
Yes. This is. Yeah. OK. What's it called again? It's called Sweet Bobby. OK, I'm listening right now. Really good. Goodbye.
00:11:52
Hey Karen do you know the podcast Do you need a ride It sounds familiar Well this week the incredible hosts have none other than Gareth Reynolds of podcasting fame from the Dollop podcast on
00:12:06
And God, I freaking love that guy. He's so funny. He is a real gem. He's very good at podcasting.
00:12:12
There's also This Podcast Will Kill You. They're covering endometriosis this week.
00:12:18
Such an important topic. And then Bananas has an Exactly Right crossover episode this week by having the guests be Alex and Elizabeth from the True Beauty Brooklyn podcast, which is also on Exactly Right.
00:12:31
And if you want to go fucking deep into the matrix, this week's True Beauty Brooklyn podcast guest is Dr. Dan from the Parent Footprint podcast, which is also on Exactly Right.
00:12:45
That's right. Jesus rabbit hole time. also we've got some merch there's a new you're in a cult t-shirt design that we
00:12:53
really enjoy that you might want to go take a look at it's cool it's cool you know the famous author rold doll he thought up willie wonka and the bfg but did you know he
00:13:05
was a spy neither did i you can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast the secret world
00:13:12
of Roald Dahl. All episodes are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
00:13:17
What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes
00:13:23
of The Secret World of Roald Dahl. Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:13:30
When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?
00:13:35
Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy, a weekly podcast from me,
00:13:40
a DJ and licensed therapist. It's Mental Health Month. Let's figure out what actually works.
00:13:45
I didn't care about my life circumstance when I listened to that stuff. It didn't matter to me.
00:13:50
This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for you every day. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search DJ Hester Prince Music is Therapy, and start listening now.
00:14:00
10-10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.
00:14:06
A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics.
00:14:14
I screamed, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery that may or may not have been political, that may have been about sex.
00:14:25
Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:14:31
All right. All right. Well, should we get started with our six-year anniversary episode?
00:14:41
Are you ready to do it? Are you ready to show your work six years worth? Oh, my God.
00:14:46
It'll look insane. Okay. I think I go first this week. Okay. And this week I'm covering the murder of Andrea Bowman.
00:14:56
Okay. This one is, I had not heard of it. It's not famous. There's a little famous element to it, but it's a pretty compelling, pretty upsetting story, as they all are.
00:15:08
That's what we're here for. Yep. So the sources for this story are the Atavis magazine had an article called The Girl in the Picture by Niall Capello.
00:15:17
There's a Fox 17 West Michigan article by Carrie Haringa and Michael Martin. The Holland Sentinel.
00:15:25
There's an article by Carolyn Meiskins. there's the Charlie Project archives and there's an Oxygen article by Gina Tron about it and there's
00:15:37
an AP article there's the Wikipedia page of the murder of Andrea Bowman there's multiple Holland
00:15:44
Sentinel articles by Carolyn Muskins there's a News Channel 3 article by Samantha May and
00:15:52
And there is an article by Austin Denian and Angeline McCall for Fox 17 West Michigan.
00:16:01
And there's an Inside Edition article with no byline about the murder of Kathleen O'Brien Doyle.
00:16:07
So this starts, it takes place in Holland, Michigan in the fall of 1988. And 14-year-old Andrea Bowman suddenly starts hanging around school long after the school day has ended.
00:16:18
She eventually confides in her teachers that she's actually afraid to go home. So the school staff calls police and social services.
00:16:25
And when they question Andrea, she tells them her father, Dennis Bowman, has been sexually assaulting her.
00:16:31
So a social worker and a police officer escort Andrea home to confront Andrea's parents, Dennis and Brenda, who flatly deny their daughter's accusations.
00:16:40
And they actually explained to authorities, Andrea recently found out that she was adopted and that they believe that this is just a rebellious kind of phase based on learning that information.
00:16:53
And she's kind of going through it. So they basically say their daughter's lying and that this is just, you know, this is her rebelling.
00:17:01
Now, Andrea's been known as a rebellious kid in the past and that she's run away once before and gone and stayed at her friend's house.
00:17:09
So this rationale actually satisfies the police and social services. But that means she was trying to escape her parents.
00:17:17
Yes. Yes, exactly. She's not a bad kid. She's fucking leaving her home. She's trying to get out of a horrible situation.
00:17:24
But I think it. Yeah. So I get it. I get it. It works. And the adults are believed and the children are not believed.
00:17:32
And essentially they leave Andrea at the Bowman's house and nothing happens. happens. Soon afterwards, the family moves from their house in Holland to a trailer that's kind
00:17:44
of way outside of town in Allegan County, Michigan. So then on Saturday, March 11th, 1989,
00:17:51
while Brenda at work so this is like roughly six months later Dennis Bowman comes home from visiting family that weekend to find that Andrea who was supposed to have stayed at home to do homework isn there
00:18:06
In fact, she's nowhere to be found. Dennis calls Brenda at work to tell her this news.
00:18:11
The two then contact the police to report Andrea missing. Dennis says he believes Andrea stole $100 from his bedroom dresser before packing her bag and running away.
00:18:20
And the police opened an investigation into Andrea's disappearance, and they classified her as an endangered runaway.
00:18:27
So we'll talk about her a little bit. Andrea Michelle Bowman, whose birth name was Alexis Miranda Badger, is born on June 23, 1974, in New Orleans to her 16-year-old biological mother, Kathy Turkanian.
00:18:42
So both Kathy and her 19-year-old husband, Randy, they've left their own like dysfunctional home lives to make a new life together in New Orleans.
00:18:54
Kathy's determined to give her daughter a better childhood than the one that she had.
00:18:57
But after a few months of raising Alexis as basically a teen mother, her teen husband, Randy, starts cheating on her and neglecting the baby and it all kind of falls apart.
00:19:07
So with no other options, Kathy leaves Randy and goes back to her hometown in Virginia to live with her mother.
00:19:15
But her mother doesn't help Kathy with this baby. She's constantly telling Kathy that she can't raise Alexis on her own.
00:19:22
And basically, Kathy becomes convinced of that. She's worried her mother's right.
00:19:27
So she decides the right thing to do would be to give Alexis up for adoption when she's just five months old in the hope that someone else can give her daughter the life that she deserves.
00:19:38
Yeah. So Alexis spends 16 months in foster care until Dennis and Brenda Bowman, who at the time are living in Virginia, adopt her in 1976.
00:19:49
And they rename her Andrea Michelle Bowman. And soon after, they move to West Michigan.
00:19:54
So then in January of 1988, the beginning of the year where the problems start for Andrea at school, Brenda gives birth to a baby girl named Vanessa.
00:20:07
And 14-year-old Andrea is very protective of her little sister, and she spends her free time caring for the baby as if it were her own.
00:20:14
And Andrea has reason to be protective of her little sister, because in 1980, when Andrea was just six years old, Dennis Bowman is arrested for the attempted rape of a 19 year old woman.
00:20:26
Oh, my God. This woman tells police that Dennis forced her a gunpoint into a wooded area in West Michigan and threatened to, quote, blow a hole right through her if she didn't do what he said.
00:20:38
Luckily, right in that moment, a passing car distracts Dennis, and this woman is able to jump on her bicycle and get away and go to the police.
00:20:47
Holy shit. He's arrested the same day, and this woman immediately identifies him in a lineup.
00:20:53
Dennis ends up cutting a deal with the prosecutors. He pleads guilty to assault with intent to commit criminal sexual conduct, and he's sentenced to five to ten years in prison.
00:21:02
He serves the minimum of five years. He's released in 1986 and he's still on parole when Andrea disappears in 1989.
00:21:11
So rumors swirl around town that Andrea had been physically, potentially like allegedly physically abused at home when she was in middle school.
00:21:21
There's kids that say that one day she got on the bus and she was bleeding. Her wrist was bleeding and they weren't sure if it was self-harm or some heard that it was because she was trying to break back into her house after her parents locked her out.
00:21:36
No matter what, the stories are disturbing. There's clearly something going on in that house.
00:21:40
But given the era and the general mindset of this Michigan town, people minded their own business.
00:21:47
No one looks into it. No one questions the Bowmans about it. That's such a crazy little detail right there.
00:21:52
She claimed she was being sexually assaulted. They bring her home and the dad is on parole for attempted sexual assault and they still don't believe her.
00:22:03
Yes, they don't connect it. Yeah. It's like they're not looking into it or or the parents are so convincing.
00:22:12
Right. That they don't think to look into it. I mean, the fact that those things weren't weren't that that wasn't linked.
00:22:18
I mean, because it's the late 80s. So there's not computer systems. There's no Internet.
00:22:23
Yeah, it's not. They would have to have all those files. You know, they would have to know. Right. Right. OK, so in the weeks following Andrea's disappearance, Dennis and Brenda move once again from that trailer outside of town to a new house in Hamilton, Michigan.
00:22:38
And over the next few months, Brenda calls around to Andrea's friends. She's asking them if anyone has seen her.
00:22:45
And they all say no. She also makes several phone calls to the police saying she's gotten tips from people saying that they've spotted Andrea around town.
00:22:54
Police look into every tip that Brenda gives them. None of these sightings are ever verified.
00:22:59
So now it's 1993 and Andrea has been missing for four years. So this is the year that the band Soul Asylum releases the music video for the song Runaway Train, which if you grew up in this time, you know, this video was a song about missing children.
00:23:18
And the video actually featured photos of 36 children who were missing at the time.
00:23:25
And Andrea Bowman is one of those kids that's featured in the video. Oh, my God.
00:23:29
This video is on constant rotation on music video channels. And this video leads to finding 25 of the 36 missing kids.
00:23:41
Holy shit. Which is amazing. And like what a beautiful thing Soul Asylum did for those families and for those kids.
00:23:49
But sadly, Andrea is not one of the kids that gets found. Her case remains unsolved and eventually goes cold.
00:23:55
So then in 1998, Dennis Bowman is caught... breaking and entering the home of his former co-worker, 20-year-old Vicki Brink in Ottawa County, Michigan.
00:24:07
So Vicki's had several break-ins at her house, so she installed a security system.
00:24:11
And when the alarm goes off, a police officer arrives to find Dennis Bowman exiting her back door.
00:24:18
He tells the officer that he's been staying with Vicki. The officer believes him and lets him go.
00:24:24
Yeah. No! Without even asking her? you know i don't know if she's not it seems like she's not there so it takes a second saying yeah
00:24:34
so when she goes when vicky tells the officer dennis is lying they go to dennis's home they
00:24:40
search his property they find a duffel bag containing vicky's stolen lingerie a black
00:24:44
sweatshirt a mask and a short barreled shotgun oh fuck yeah so dennis is arrested on the spot
00:24:53
He pleads guilty to the breaking and entering charge, but not before giving the court letters from several people defending his character.
00:25:01
And those letters are from his boss, a member of his church, his sex offender group counselor, the principal at his daughter Vanessa's school and his wife, Brenda.
00:25:14
Yeah. Never defend someone. You just don't know. He also writes the judge a letter himself in which he says, quote, I am the father of two lovely daughters, one 25, the other 11.
00:25:27
And I feel that being a parent is one of the most important and sobering things a person can undertake.
00:25:33
End quote. Fuck you, dude. Oh, my God. I hate his guts. He fails to mention that 25 year old daughter he's talking about has been missing for 10 years.
00:25:42
So these character testimonials actually end up helping lessen Dennis's sentence for this crime.
00:25:50
Okay, so then in 2009, an amateur forensic sketch artist in El Segundo, California named Carl Koppelman is scrolling through NamUs, which is the National Database of Missing Persons and Unidentified Bodies, when he comes across a Racine County Jane Doe.
00:26:07
So this Jane Doe is found in a Wisconsin cornfield in 1999. She'd suffered broken bones and there were signs of sexual assault.
00:26:17
But a combination of rain and decay made it difficult for authorities to determine an exact cause of death or identify the body.
00:26:26
So when Koppelman plugs this Jane Doe's basic traits into NamUs, her hazel green eyes, her pierced ears, the short reddish brown hair, he gets a close match to Andrea Bauman.
00:26:37
The Doe's approximate age at the time of her death aligns with the age of Andrea, what she would have been in 1999, which is 25 years old.
00:26:45
Plus the location where this Jane Doe was found is a four hour drive from where Andrea was last seen.
00:26:51
So this is all enough to prompt investigators to start looking at this cold case again.
00:26:58
But they needed a relative's DNA to see if the Racine County Jane Doe is, in fact, Andrea.
00:27:04
so authorities tracked down her birth mother kathy turkanian wow when they talked to her in 2010
00:27:12
kathy's life is completely different than the one she was living when she was a teen mother who was
00:27:18
forced to give up her child now she's graduated from nursing school and she lives a very comfortable
00:27:23
life with her new husband in massachusetts she'd always wondered about uh alexis her daughter alexis
00:27:30
who's now Andrea, and she'd always hoped that she was happy. So getting a letter saying that
00:27:35
her daughter may have been murdered is, of course, shocking and heartbreaking. That's just so sad that like you think giving a child up to have a better life,
00:27:43
and then someone wanting a kid and stepping up and adopting, that they'd still be monsters,
00:27:49
you know? Yeah. It's worst case scenario. Yeah. For someone who's trying to do the right thing for this baby because they love them so much.
00:27:59
Totally. So, of course, Kathy's more than willing to provide a DNA sample, but she also wants to know more about what happened to her daughter. So she scours the web for answers. And she sets up a Facebook page and a classmates.com page for Andrea to gather information. And she and Carl Koppelman end up connecting through that classmates.com page.
00:28:21
And as Carl and other amateur detectives interested in Andrea's case provide more information about the Bowmans, Kathy decides to submit a Freedom of Information Act request to learn more about Dennis Bowman's record, essentially.
00:28:36
And when she learns about these crimes, she immediately suspects he's involved with Andrea's disappearance.
00:28:43
But she knows that she has to find proof. And then she dealt another blow. Those DNA results that came back on the Racine County Jane Doe, it's not Andrea.
00:28:54
Right. The body's later identified as a young woman named Peggy Johnson. But Kathy really believes that Dennis Bowman has something to do with Andrea's disappearance.
00:29:05
Yeah. And she's now determined to figure out what happened to her daughter. So Kathy and Carl Koppelman continue their web sleuth investigation.
00:29:18
They go to Michigan together several times to talk to the police about the case.
00:29:21
They search for old acquaintances who might have more information. And they also go and scope out the Bowman's house.
00:29:29
And from a distance, they can see the backyard of the Bowman's house. And Kathy spots a patch of cement on the property.
00:29:36
Yeah, and she is so afraid that her daughter could be buried underneath it. Oh, my God.
00:29:45
So in September of 2013 Carl and Kathy attend a missing persons event organized by local law enforcement called Missing in Michigan And during one of the group sessions Kathy and Carl spot Brenda and her daughter Vanessa No Brenda Bowman Brenda tentatively approaches Kathy because she aware of these
00:30:08
accusations that Kathy's been making about her husband on Facebook and elsewhere online. Yeah.
00:30:14
And this turns into a confrontation, which turns into a screaming match. Kathy demands that Brenda tell the truth about her husband.
00:30:23
Brenda defends Dennis, of course, saying that they did everything they could to cooperate with police and to try and find Andrea.
00:30:31
It's just it's a horrible it's like worst case scenario for something, an event like that where they're trying to solve problems.
00:30:39
It's horrible. horrible. So meanwhile, now, while all that's going on, cold case investigators in Virginia
00:30:47
are making headway on a seemingly unrelated case, the 1980 unsolved murder of a woman
00:30:54
named Kathleen O'Brien Doyle. So Kathleen was a 25 year old aspiring novelist, and she was the daughter of a U.S. naval officer who was married to a Navy pilot.
00:31:05
So Kathleen's husband was deployed in 1980, leaving her alone in their Norfolk, Virginia home.
00:31:13
And there she was found raped, bound and murdered. So in 1983, the police thought they had their culprit when serial killer, this stupid motherfucker, Henry Lee Lucas, confessed to her murder.
00:31:27
Motherfucker. But when DNA testing proved that to be a lie, Kathleen's case ran cold.
00:31:34
But as genetic testing technology starts to improve in the 2000s, cold case investigators run Kathleen's crime scene DNA samples through their new DNA database system, and they get a list of 30 potential suspects.
00:31:49
And now all they need to do is collect the DNA from each of the suspects to see if they can confirm a match to someone on that list.
00:31:57
That seems like a huge undertaking. Yeah, that's quite a job. OK, so in 2019, and this is how much these cold case investigators stayed on this.
00:32:08
It's pretty amazing. They meet detectives from Michigan at a conference. And when they show the Michigan detectives the suspect list from Kathleen's murder case, the Michigan investigators immediately recognize one of the names, Dennis Bowman.
00:32:24
Wow. When they put the timeline together, they discover Bowman was still living in Michigan at the time of Kathleen's murder.
00:32:31
In fact, that's when he was out on bail and awaiting trial for the attempted rape of the 19 year old West Michigan woman.
00:32:39
So Kathleen O'Brien Doyle's murder took place while Dennis was on a two week leave for his Navy Reserve Service requirement that he was fulfilling.
00:32:48
So while he's out on bail, he goes to do his Navy Reserve Service. And then he's on leave for that service.
00:32:57
And this is all taking place in Norfolk, Virginia. Oh, for fuck's sake. And it turns out, but this is the part I really love.
00:33:06
Getting Dennis's DNA turns out to be easier than the Virginia investigators could have imagined.
00:33:11
Because it turns out that Brenda and Dennis had gone to the Holland, Michigan police station a couple years prior to complain about the online harassment from Kathy Turkanian.
00:33:22
So while they're at the police station to lodge that complaint, the police offered Dennis a bottle of water.
00:33:29
Yes. Yes. Which he took and drank and left there without a second thought. And those cops saved that bottle.
00:33:37
Yeah. And they kept Dennis's DNA sample on file. So when Virginia. They fucking knew they would find something eventually.
00:33:44
They fucking knew it. They knew. They knew that he'd already been prosecuted for sexual assault a couple times.
00:33:52
They're like, let's just slip this in the back pocket. Yeah. We might as well. Cover evidence room.
00:33:57
Oh, my God. Someone was very smart. So when Virginia investigators test the sample, they find a direct match to the DNA found at the scene of Kathleen's murder.
00:34:08
Oh, my God. So on November 22nd, 2019, Michigan police, in cooperation with the Virginia authorities, raid the now 72 year old Dennis Bowman's home and arrest him.
00:34:20
And he admits to Kathleen's murder, but he claims he only meant to rob her. But when he saw her there, she surprised him and he decided that he had to kill her.
00:34:31
It's her fault for surprising him. Right. Yes, exactly. He was so innocent is that he was only going to rob her, even though he has a history of assault and rape.
00:34:40
Fucking piece of shit. Dennis pleads guilty on June 10th, 2020, to the first degree murder and rape of Kathleen O'Brien Doyle, as well as to a related burglary charge.
00:34:50
And he's given two life sentences for her murder and an additional 20 years for that burglary charge.
00:34:57
But Kathy Tarkanian still wants justice for her daughter. Yeah. And luckily, it doesn't take long for her to get it.
00:35:06
Because while behind bars, Dennis Bowman starts copping to more crimes. What? The first one he confesses to is the 1979 rape of an unnamed 27-year-old Michigan woman.
00:35:19
apparently he broke into her home bound and gagged her then raped and robbed her and although she was
00:35:26
able to give a thorough description of her assailant Dennis had never been caught and then
00:35:32
sometime around December 2019 or January 2020 in a written confession as well as in a phone
00:35:38
conversation with his wife Brenda Dennis finally admits to killing Andrea yep he claims again he
00:35:47
He claims it was an accident. His story is that when he came home on March 11th 1989 Andrea threatened to tell more people that he had been molesting her And they argued And in the heat of the moment according to Dennis he slapped her knocked her down the stairs And in that fall
00:36:05
she broke her neck. So then because he was afraid of the authorities, of course,
00:36:11
he takes his daughter's body to a remote barn, dismembers her and burns her clothes.
00:36:19
Then he hides the remains under a tarp until the Bowmans move into their new home in Hamilton.
00:36:25
where he buries her remains in the backyard and covers her grave with a thin layer of cement,
00:36:31
which is the exact same slab of cement that Kathy spotted and suspected was the site of her daughter's burial.
00:36:39
She was right. Kathy was right. Oh, my God. So when police dig up the cemented area, they find human remains.
00:36:46
And when they run DNA tests, it is confirmed that the remains are Andrea Bowman's.
00:36:52
And Brenda Bowman is completely shocked by this discovery. Truly, she had no idea that her daughter's remains, her adoptive daughter's remains, were buried in her own backyard for nearly 30 years.
00:37:07
So this woman who was defending her husband, who was trying, you know, thinking that she was fighting the good fight and that it's so sad.
00:37:16
so the first hearing for andrea's murder takes place february of 2021 so basically a year ago
00:37:24
yeah brenda admits that when andrea was alive at this hearing she admits that andrea confided in
00:37:33
her that dennis was molesting her and that she she didn't or couldn't believe what her daughter was
00:37:40
telling her. And she confesses that she told Andrea, that's a lie and you know it.
00:37:46
When I hear these stories, I mean, I thank everyone. It's so heartbreaking. And so unfortunately,
00:37:53
we hear it over and over again. It's so sad. Like you're siding with your husband rather than your
00:38:00
daughter. Why would she make that up? It's so, it's awful. It's just so sad. so that trial got delayed by covid of course it got rescheduled for january 11th 2022 that's
00:38:16
tomorrow okay i was just gonna look down on my computer like what day is it oh my so when this
00:38:21
comes up on thursday it'll have happened already yeah but on wednesday december 22nd of last year
00:38:28
dennis pled no contest to the second degree murder his sentencing takes place next month on the 7th
00:38:35
And Kathy Turkanian plans to be there. Hell yeah. Of course. She's also planning on working to obtain custody of Andrea's remains.
00:38:44
Kathy still calls her Alexis, by the way, her birth name. Of course. Because Kathy wants to arrange the funeral and give her daughter a proper burial.
00:38:54
And that is the tragic story of the murder of Andrea Bowman. Wow. Wow. Wow, that's such a banana story. I had never heard that.
00:39:07
Yeah, me either. It's so heartbreaking. It's just so heartbreaking. Yeah. Ayyveh. Right? Well, great job.
00:39:15
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall.
00:39:22
In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security,
00:39:28
one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS
00:39:35
and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app,
00:39:43
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins,
00:39:53
but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?
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I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern.
00:40:05
Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.
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My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police.
00:40:16
As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:40:26
I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.
00:40:36
Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:40:48
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:00
Okay, well, let's take a lefty, shall we? Okay. And go to one of the topics I like, which is where it came from things.
00:41:12
And this is the history of the insanity defense. Cool. OK, so the sources used for today's episode are a PBS Frontline documentary, Cornell Law School, an Indian Journal of Psychiatry article written by T.V. Assocan, the University of Missouri, Kansas City School of Law and a Psychology Today article written by Dr. Susan J. Lewis.
00:41:37
So we hear, Karen, I'm sure you know about the insanity defense a lot in true crime and on TV shows and movies.
00:41:45
But only 1% of all defendants ever plead not guilty by reason of insanity, which is tiny.
00:41:52
And only 25 of those defendants are successful in using the defense So what exactly is the insanity defense Well according to Cornell Law School when a defendant uses the insanity defense they
00:42:06
admitting to the crime but are asserting a lack of culpability based on mental illness.
00:42:11
And it's an excuse rather than a justification defense. So the idea that someone shouldn't be held responsible for their actions due to their
00:42:20
state, a.k.a. the insanity defense, has been around since the 1500s, but it wasn't until
00:42:25
the 1800s that a court actually came up with a test on how to determine a defendant's insanity.
00:42:32
In 1843, a Scotsman named Daniel M'Noughton, so it's M'Noughton, which is confusing.
00:42:41
That's a new kind of name. Sure. M apostrophe. Put an apostrophe in your name. You're fucking fancy as shit, right?
00:42:50
It's like they're not going to bother with that little C. Monotin. He's on trial in England for the murder of Prime Minister Sir Robert Peel's secretary, Edward Drummond.
00:43:02
Monotin's attorney tells the jury that he should be acquitted because he's insane and has been for years.
00:43:08
They tell the jury that two years prior to the murder, Monotin told the police that the Tories were harassing him,
00:43:15
that they followed him everywhere he went. And he said that they, quote, do everything in their power to harass and persecute him
00:43:22
and that they wanted to murder him. An entire political group is harassing him. This one man.
00:43:30
Yes. So obviously that's not true. He's having what's it called? Delusions. His paranoia continued to grow over the next two years to the point where he decided that
00:43:41
But in order to end this harassment that he was delusional about, he had to kill the Tory
00:43:46
prime minister, Sir Robert Peel. So on June 20th, 1843, Minotin waits outside of Peel's house with a gun.
00:43:56
And then a man comes out of the house and starts walking down the street. And Minotin walks up behind him and shoots the man in the back, thinking it's Peel.
00:44:05
And he does it in front of a bunch of witnesses. He's not trying to, like, keep it secret.
00:44:09
fires the gun and then it turns out that it wasn't peel but his secretary edward drummond oh i know
00:44:16
what a bummer right the defense tells the jury that while awaiting trial monoton was examined
00:44:21
by multiple psychiatrists one of which dr edward monroe testifies that monoton's delusions are real
00:44:29
to him and the things he thought were at least actually happening to him so other psychiatrists
00:44:37
testify for the defense saying that Monon is insane. Even the two psychiatrists called by the
00:44:43
crown, you know, the prosecution say that Monon is insane. So he's acquitted and is ordered to
00:44:50
spend the rest of his life in an institution. The court and press are super fucking pissed about
00:44:57
this verdict. They don't feel like Monon is insane enough to get away with murder. They're
00:45:02
basically saying he's getting away with murder and like making up an excuse. Queen Victoria asked
00:45:07
the House of Lords to come up with a set of requirements a defendant must meet in order
00:45:12
to be found legally insane. And so this set of requirements becomes known as the Monotten Rule.
00:45:19
According to Cornell Law School, the Monotten Rule requires that a defendant has to prove
00:45:24
one of the following two things. At the time of committing the crime, the defendant was either, quote, laboring under such a defect
00:45:32
of reason from disease of the mind as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing.
00:45:39
Or two, quote, if he did know that he did not know what he was doing was wrong. Right.
00:45:45
So the Monatine rule really stresses the idea of a defendant knowing right from wrong at the time
00:45:50
of the crime. And so the fact that Monatine did this in front of a bunch of witnesses
00:45:54
says that he wasn't aware that it was wrong. And because of this, it's now much harder for someone
00:46:00
to be found insane in the eyes of the law because of these two rules. For example, if these requirements
00:46:06
existed when Monotin himself was at trial, he would not have even been acquitted. So the laws
00:46:11
don't even pertain to the person it was named after. Following the creation of the Monotin rule
00:46:16
in England, courts in the United States adopt the rules for themselves, but by the mid-20th century,
00:46:21
some states realize that the rule is missing something, which is that it doesn't take into
00:46:26
consideration someone's ability to control their actions. At the time, the defendant may know right
00:46:32
from wrong, but they are not able to stop themselves from acting. So if that's the case,
00:46:37
then there's nothing in the Monotan rule to allow the defendant to be acquitted. So to take care of
00:46:43
this issue, some states are using an irresistible impulse test. In addition to the Monotan rule,
00:46:49
this test basically boils down to the simple question of would the defendant have committed
00:46:54
the crime, even if there were policemen standing at his elbow? If the answer is yes, then they
00:47:02
should be acquitted. So after a couple iterations of like rules and laws that are changed, federal
00:47:08
judges order that the Monotan rules be replaced by the Moral Penal Code or MPC. So the American
00:47:14
Law Institute published the MPC rule, which basically combined the Monotan rule with the
00:47:20
irresistible impulse test, then added in the medical and psychiatric angle. It says that a
00:47:27
defendant cannot be held criminally responsible if at the time in question, quote, he lacks
00:47:32
substantial capacity, either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to confirm.
00:47:38
Sorry, that's boring. Who cares? No, because these are the it's like the little details of drive down how they figured out how to get to this in the first place, which is a thing that at this point people have exploited.
00:47:56
But in the beginning, it had these really good intentions. Yeah. You know, it's.
00:48:00
So that people exploit it, but people also are like, when it actually works, people don't believe it.
00:48:06
Yes. Which is like, well, there's actually like really strict rules to use it. So if it does happen, then you should believe it.
00:48:12
It's not like they're fucking letting any asshole use it. Right. Completely. And you know what it makes me think of, too, is the Sacramento vampire.
00:48:21
Richard, what's his name? Where he thought his insides were, you know, he was truly, he had gone, as my mother used to love to say,
00:48:30
organic in the brain. Like he, he, the reality he was living was not the reality we were all living
00:48:36
and he was doing things that seemed, that made sense in that very screwed up world that his
00:48:43
brain had been showing him. Totally. He believed what he was having delusions about a hundred
00:48:49
percent. I feel like the same thing. And a lot of people argue with Andrea Yates, you know,
00:48:53
which is such a, we would never cover that. It's hard, like horrible. And you, you, you know,
00:48:59
What she did is horrendous, but based on what we've read, she was not in her fucking same mind.
00:49:08
And also, this is that extreme postpartum thing that never gets talked about, of course, because it happens to women.
00:49:15
So it's in 2021 where people finally start actually talking about, yes, this has happened to me.
00:49:22
The ultimate shame is that you're not a good mother. Totally. You're not also like, I love being a mother.
00:49:28
It's the best. everything about it. And it's like, no, everyone knows it kind of sucks for the first year.
00:49:34
Or do they? I don't know. It's just me. Sorry. That's your personal theory. That's your personal
00:49:40
delusion. It's my personal delusion. Okay, substantial capacity. Around half the states
00:49:49
adopt some form of the MPC rule, while the other half continue to use a form of the Monoton rule.
00:49:56
Then everything changes again on June 21st, 1982, when a jury acquits John Hinckley Jr.
00:50:05
after he attempted to assassinate then President Ronald Reagan. So just a really quick recap on March 30th, 1981, President Reagan.
00:50:13
And there's fucking film of this, right? Yes, I've seen it. It's crazy. Yeah. He's leaving the Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.
00:50:21
He just spoke at a conference. So everyone's fucking just living their lives. Hinkley was in the crowd and was able to fire six shots at Reagan before he was knocked to the ground.
00:50:32
And none of the bullets hit Reagan directly, but one ricocheted off the presidential limo and struck him in the chest, puncturing a lung and causing internal bleeding.
00:50:42
Reagan almost died, but was saved during surgery and released from the hospital almost two weeks later.
00:50:48
What's weird about that is I didn't realize he was hit. I thought he walked away from that, like our friend Gerald Ford and all the times people tried to designate him.
00:50:59
I think what happened. Yeah, because I think what happened was he they don't think he's hit.
00:51:03
He gets in the car and they drive away. Right. And like he feels some pain, like a sharp pain in his armpit.
00:51:11
And they realize like he didn't even they didn't even know he was hit until he was like, what's this?
00:51:15
And pulls his jacket up and there's like blood. Crazy, right? Yeah. Yeah. So during the attack, three other people were shot.
00:51:22
Police officer Thomas Delehanty and Secret Service agent Timothy McCarthy. They're wounded. They make full recoveries.
00:51:30
But sadly, press secretary James Brady is permanently paralyzed. Yeah. So at Hinkley's trial, the jury was told that Hinkley was insane at the time of the attempted assassination.
00:51:42
He was suffering from delusions where he believed Jodie Foster, actress Jodie Foster, was in love with him.
00:51:48
Years prior, Hinckley had become obsessed with Foster after watching the movie Taxi Driver, which obviously it's about Robert De Niro trying to save Jodie Foster's character, a 12 year old girl from being sex trafficked.
00:52:03
And at one point in the movie, De Niro's character tries to assassinate a U.S. senator who's running for president.
00:52:09
And so Hinckley starts stalking Jodie Foster after this, follows her around, writes her letters, even was able to call her.
00:52:17
And when she said she wasn interested Hinckley decided he needed to become famous to get her to fall in love with him And that when he decided to be like De Niro character and assassinate a politician Following Hinckley acquittal the public is fucking outraged You know obviously you can
00:52:36
fucking assassinate a sitting president. They think that Hinckley's found some loophole in
00:52:41
the system and they refuse to believe that being obsessed with an actor is the same thing as being
00:52:46
insane. Many politicians and members of the public call for the insanity defense to be
00:52:52
abolished. On the other side, psychiatrists say it shouldn't be abolished, just revised.
00:52:59
Because obviously there's people who truly need it. So it needs to be in place. And he
00:53:04
qualifies, Hinkley qualifies old school style where if there was a cop at your side,
00:53:11
he was shooting into a crowd of cops. Literally. That's a very interesting point.
00:53:17
Yeah. Also, and here's my other point that's not really related, but one of my favorite band names of all time is Jodie Foster's Army.
00:53:25
Have you ever heard of that band? No! JFA. I wonder if they were Bay Area, but they were, I'm sure, punk.
00:53:32
And the first time it was like JFA stickers everywhere. And then I saw that it was Jodie Foster's Army.
00:53:39
And I was like, I don't care what kind of music they make. This is my favorite band.
00:53:43
Oh, my God. Let's get T-shirts. Yep. Go to their, wear their T-shirts to their concerts.
00:53:47
Okay. In 1984, Congress answers the call to what the fuck do we do about this with the Insanity Defense Reform Act, where a compromise is made.
00:53:59
So the insanity defense isn't abolished, but it does become more strict. The NPC rules thrown out.
00:54:06
My Naughton rule is put back in place. This guy, man, fucking historic. He lives.
00:54:12
Yeah. In addition, a defendant can still present evidence of a mental disease or defect, but now he has to also prove that it is severe.
00:54:20
So, like, I can't go in and be like, I've been in therapy since I was a kid. Therefore, I didn't know what I was doing when I killed someone.
00:54:26
Like, that doesn't work. At the time of the murder, you have to be totally, etc.
00:54:32
However, a defendant can no longer use irresistible impulse as part of their defense.
00:54:38
A few other revisions are made. For example, so the prosecution had the burden of proof before to prove that the defendant was sane.
00:54:45
So it was their job to be like that. But now the defendant has to prove that he was insane at the time of the crime, which seems which is probably a lot harder or a lot.
00:54:58
You know, here's an example of the insanity defense being used and working the case of Lorena Bobbitt.
00:55:05
You know this. So on June 23rd, 1993, in Manassas, Virginia, in the middle of the frickin' night, Lorena Bobbitt, who's 24, cuts off the penis of her sleeping husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, who's 26.
00:55:20
Oh, you look, you're cringing. It's very upsetting. Yeah. I hate this story so much.
00:55:27
I know. I know. Life was salacious in the 90s, you know? Well, and also it was the kind of thing where then it became this Howard Stern topic and it was like every joke and you couldn't get away from it. And it's really, if it were a man doing that to a woman and people were making jokes like that, I mean, people would go insane. So like, I just, that whole idea that it's, but it's funny if it happens to a man is really gross, I think.
00:55:53
Right. And it's like, it came from a traumatic event. So how, that's not humorous.
00:55:58
The whole thing is an issue. Totally. So after she did that, she flees the scene along with the severed penis and she later tosses it out the car window while driving along a highway in Virginia.
00:56:12
She says she did it because her husband, John Wayne Bobbitt, emotionally, physically and sexually abused her during their marriage and had even forced her to have an abortion.
00:56:22
She also claims that her husband raped her on the night she cut off his penis. Her defense lawyer, Blaine D. Howard, states that after suffering years of John's abuse, she had just snapped, using that word, due to the PTSD and clinical depression the abuse had caused her, which caused her to have that irresistible impulse in the moment.
00:56:43
She's acquitted in 1994 at her trial, and though she's ultimately committed to a mental hospital, five weeks later, the judge orders her to be released.
00:56:51
Through the years the insanity defense continues to evolve Someone who is found guilty but mentally ill is still held criminally responsible
00:57:02
But since they are mentally ill, instead of going to prison right away, they receive mental health treatment.
00:57:07
But once they're done with treatment, they serve the remainder of their sentence in a regular prison.
00:57:11
This differs from the not guilty by reason of insanity acquittal verdict where the defendant receives treatment but is released if and when they finish treatment, which seems a little more level headed to me.
00:57:25
Right. Depends. Yeah. You know, right. All depends. Oh, it's contextual. All of it.
00:57:32
It is. And today each state has their own rules when it comes to the insanity defense.
00:57:37
The federal government's laws on the insanity defense remain the same as they did in 1984.
00:57:43
And that is the history of the insanity defense. I mean, I think it's interesting to look back on the conversation when, as Dave Holmes talks about in his brilliant podcast, Waiting for Impact, the monoculture.
00:57:59
We were getting one story from basically one or two news sources about these things and told what to think about these topics.
00:58:08
So it was like the insanity defense is bullshit. And whoever was saying that, we're like, yes, it is, because that's all we heard.
00:58:15
And there was very little nuance or expanded conversation around that. So it was like, oh, these bad guys are using it to get out.
00:58:23
And that's all it is. Where obviously, as we know, and the longer we tell these stories to each other, these horrible things and the why behind it, it's like there's a lot of different whys behind stories.
00:58:37
And mental illness is a big part of many of them. Well, I think what's what's changing the conversation and culture is that mental illness is, you know, always evolving, but starting to be more understood as something that is rampant in our society because it was so shamed and hidden.
00:58:55
And like, you know, there's the crazy kid in your family, send them away. And now it's like this happens in everyone's family.
00:59:02
There's someone in everyone's family or there's, you know, you with your own mental illnesses and your own issues.
00:59:09
And we all have PTSD in some fucking way or some, you know, trauma. And it's, I think, hopefully being a little more being a little more empathetic these days.
00:59:20
And but then also once that's part of the conversation, too, then it's like so then we can say like the thing that happens a lot where it's like, right, you know, this person went through trauma and that's the rationale behind these crimes.
00:59:35
Right. Except all the other people who also went through that trauma do not kill.
00:59:40
Right. Therefore, we need to really process this in a different way. Like I think that the fact that people are able to speak up and be like, I never did that.
00:59:48
And I went through the exact same thing. So that can't be the excuse. And we can't pretend that these are these, you know, like this people going through family trauma is always this very specialized experience when in fact it's common.
01:00:02
And lots of people take responsibility and or get help. And also, yeah, back then there used to be there used to be state run help.
01:00:12
we need we need mental health services back oh god we need services so bad thanks reagan
01:00:19
fucking uh well for our sixth anniversary should we maybe each do one or two fucking hoorays let's do it okay great job by the way i think that's really interesting i think it's
01:00:35
like i all those kinds of things i always want to know more and more about them thank you okay
01:00:41
This one says, Hey, y'all, are we still doing fucking rays? Well, if not, I'm still telling you this because it's awesome.
01:00:48
And we all need some hope. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I work a side job where I'm a princess for parties and marketing events.
01:00:56
Yes. Write a memoir, please. And I got the opportunity to work with a local pediatric cancer organization recently.
01:01:04
About a month ago, I visited a little girl sick with a rare brain cancer, and they weren't
01:01:09
really sure how much longer she'd be with us. Well, this last week, I was invited back to see
01:01:15
this brave strong incredibly smart princess to help her celebrate her fifth birthday Not only did she beat the odds and make it to five but she started walking for the first time in a long long time A lot of things may suck but she inspires me to keep going
01:01:34
Because if she can, I sure as hell can. Carolyn. Nice, Carolyn. Princess Carolyn.
01:01:41
Beautiful. Okay, this one, there's no name on this. It's from the Gmail inbox. And it says, my fucking hooray is that after being stuck in my hometown and my mental health suffering because of it, I finally found a job on the East Coast and moved.
01:01:56
I left my very supportive family and my equally supportive job of seven years. Everyone I came across agreed that I needed to move so I can grow.
01:02:06
Even though I'm not prepared to deal with what a real winter looks like, I'm excited to explore new places, meet new people, and most importantly, keep pushing myself to grow into the person that I want to be.
01:02:17
Thank you ladies for being an inspiration to try a new kind of lifestyle. That chills.
01:02:24
Yeah. Oh my God. It's so true. It's so true. They're doing it. You have to grow.
01:02:28
It's great. Yeah. You got to do it. You got to do the scary stuff. You're a little, what do they say?
01:02:33
That it hurt, that thing where one day it hurt more to, forget it. To stay small?
01:02:39
Something like that? To grow. Yeah. You know, that old. Oh. you just sew that on a pillow and it just kind of fades off.
01:02:48
Just the thread starts unraveling as you get to the last word. The W isn't on there all the way.
01:02:54
You know that thing where they say, Martarino Kelly Swig, who does all those cool, like funny graphics for us that I put up on Instagram.
01:03:03
She'll make a good little stitchy pillow. She always does. She's very funny. Guys, six years.
01:03:11
Thank you so much for being with us this whole time. We could not we would not be here without you.
01:03:16
Literally. Yeah. Thank you so much for your interest, your support, your feedback.
01:03:24
You made us who we are. Yeah, we we appreciate you. And we'll keep doing it. If you keep coming back, it works if you work it.
01:03:32
Yeah, you got to show up and then and then we'll keep we'll keep doing these. Thank you for everything.
01:03:39
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
01:03:50
Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. Associate producer, Alejandra Keck. Engineer and mixer, Stephen.
01:03:57
Ray Morris. Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray. Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
01:04:05
And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritemurder and Twitter at myfavemurder.
01:04:10
And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to MyFavoriteMurder.com.
01:04:17
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