315 - Here Be Monsters! | My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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Own the dream. Hello. And welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia. Thanks.

00:02:02

That's Karen. Thanks. That's what we go by now. We don't have last names anymore.

00:02:06

What'd you just do? Well, because I was looking at my hand. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I just looked down and there's like, there's just some stuff on my hand.

00:02:15

Kind of gray. It's not, it's not like, it looks permanent. Is it goo? Or are you on hallucinogenics?

00:02:25

it's um i can see through my hand and i can see the universe in my hand i don't know what is that

00:02:32

is that where it's been this whole fucking time and it's all it's all goo here's the good news

00:02:37

it's all good here's the bad news it's all goo yeah i don't know what this is oh i see that i

00:02:43

think i was holding a pencil uh-huh i've uh as a writer i tend to not be able to handle the actual

00:02:52

writing instruments that I use a lot of the time. So like, yeah, I'm always the person with a little

00:02:56

bit of pen on my cheek. That's cool. That makes you look smart. You know, like between that and

00:03:01

glasses, you're just like, what's up? I'm smart. Leave me alone. This thing I'm doing now where

00:03:05

I'm basically wearing glasses as a headband. It's like a theater professor affectation that

00:03:13

all I need is a cigarette and I will complete, have completed my, I'm actually a drama teacher.

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life simulation. You got it. You figured it out. Listen. This is my costume. This is your cross to bear.

00:03:32

This is my cross, Jesus. Get off of it. We're not sharing. Doubles. What did you say?

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I said doubles. Doubles. Get over here, you crazy. I was going to say survivor. I know.

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I don't think that happened. I don't think that's the Bible. well actually on our part of the bible that's right he he rises again what's up i'm back yes

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listen i believe i got a season two i'm i'm on i've come back it's because of your sins way to

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go loser um actually my bible this that's perfect because i have a segue off of that

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kind of into game of thrones where i have something to yell loudly uh but it's a big

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spoiler. So if you haven't watched it yet, do a quick 30 second forward. But if you have,

00:04:25

Karen, I just want to yell. They killed Jon Snow. Yeah, they did. What the fuck? I thought

00:04:32

he would be there till the end. I mean, the thing that I have to say to you every time is like,

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just keep going. Don't. Okay. Does he come back as a White Walker? That'd be fun.

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wouldn't it be interesting does he well you don't want me to tell you i don't all right

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and i'm not telling you just you know this is not i'm not misleading you or leading you

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okay i'm neither here nor there you're just holding me in your gray hands i'm holding this

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space for you while you wonder um there's some great things coming up though oh really okay

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Yeah, but I couldn't remember how that I, I, it's so funny to talk about the show with you. And I can't remember here and there. But did you finally see that battle scene I was talking about when he has to walk into battle? Probably by himself.

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I'm telling you, I mute and look away during every like I don't care about battles so much that I'm like, tell me who wins.

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It's obviously going to be this guy. I'm happy Baratheon's dead because that guy was a fucking dick.

00:05:44

Oh, that guy. What a great day on that show when when Joffrey Baratheon was murdered.

00:05:51

No, no, no, no. The the the brother of the king. Stannis Stannis who killed Stannis Baratheon was wait which one was he He killed his sweet little daughter and he was boning the redheaded witch

00:06:06

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's right. I was so glad he died. He was really it was a great character for that kind of like when people get pulled.

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You've seen this in your own life when people who were normal and regular suddenly have some new person in their life.

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and they're pulled into a dark side where you're like, why can't, why aren't you looking directly into my eyes?

00:06:29

What's happening? Right. They're like, so-and-so read my moon sign and it turns out that I'm actually supposed to be king of the fucking whatever.

00:06:37

And you're like, well, maybe you should calm down about it because you keep killing your daughter and like people.

00:06:43

Yeah. Maybe you should get back to basics. Right. Stannis Baratheon. I thought you were talking about King Joffrey.

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Oh, no, no. He died a while. No, no, no, no. He's way dead. He's like super dead.

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And this is an irresponsible discussion of Game of Thrones. It's out of, it's out of, no, I'm just saying it's like, I'm confused.

00:07:05

I'm referring to people. I don't even know if that's actually who we're talking about.

00:07:09

Well, I'm watching it six years later. So this is now that I know this, at least this timeline, you have a you have a battle scene coming up in the next season that you cannot you cannot look away from.

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Is that the one you keep mentioning? Yes. OK, but you have a season to go. So I'll try to remind you it's season.

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It's season six, episode nine. OK, wait, I'm in season six now. But yeah, yeah. OK, you're in season six.

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Well, because it ended. with Jon Snow dying. I'm joking like you got a part in the show.

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I have to walk through the streets naked. Oh, that scene. I ring that bell. I throw shit on her.

00:07:56

That scene. So intense. Disgusting. I mean, like craft services that day. I don't know.

00:08:06

Anyway, what you got, girl? hey girlfriend what have you got hey did you start watching the tinder swindler not yet not

00:08:17

yet is it great i just started it today so i'm i'm i'm i would say 30 minutes into it okay

00:08:25

and i will just say this say it uh yeah i think let's talk about it next episode okay i'll watch

00:08:32

it because i realize i was sitting there and it was like three o'clock yeah as i was watching it

00:08:39

And I was like, something's wrong. Am I hungry? Am I about to get sick? And I realized this idea of these women who look, who are talking and telling their story to camera and are completely normal.

00:08:54

Yeah. Calm, incredibly like gorgeous women who could probably get any one they want on Twitter.

00:09:02

Yeah. And they're about to tell the story. I'm sorry. I bet both. I bet you anything.

00:09:08

I bet even on Parler. On fucking Wardle. They're like, what's up, everyone? Hey, did you see my word?

00:09:17

But I realized it makes me like physically ill. This idea of it's just the dirtiest thing you can do.

00:09:27

So that's to love someone. It's catfishing, essentially. It is. But in this way that like, once again, you just kind of never seen it to this degree.

00:09:38

Well, I watched Sweet Bobby, I listened to Sweet Bobby, like you mentioned. And I had a really, the first three episodes are what happened.

00:09:45

And I had the hardest time going through it because it is just this like the whole like

00:09:53

emotionally and mentally abusive partner who love bombs, who does all these things.

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And I've seen friends go through that. And I was just so, I think I was like, I hate this show.

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But then I was like, no, no, no. What I hate is this concept. Yes. And that someone could go. We put through that for so long.

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And it's just it was so rough. Yeah. Did you finish it? Yeah. Oh, I finished it quick. Yes. Right.

00:10:22

You have to binge it because you're like, please tell me what in the hell is going on.

00:10:27

Yeah. I was like, I hate this. I don't want to listen to this anymore. And then I and then I couldn't stop listening to it. I mean, it's good.

00:10:31

It's not like I hated it, but it was just like so hard to get through. because it's like being made.

00:10:38

It's like someone going, hey, go walk over there and talk to that person where you're like,

00:10:41

ew, what do you know? What are you talking about? Like that's, it's that feeling of like,

00:10:45

I don't want to be here. I shouldn't be listening to this. This is not my business.

00:10:49

And yet, of course, I'm going to listen to it because it's being presented by the person.

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Right. So it happened to, so she has agency in telling the story. Yeah. So you kind of have to trust her.

00:11:00

Right. In that way. I mean, she's so brave to tell her story because she's going to help

00:11:04

so many people. be aware of what's going on. But it does also like, just like, yeah, like I lost a friend to

00:11:11

a person who in real life, it wasn't a it wasn't catfishing, but was that love bombing, get you

00:11:18

away from your friends, make you feel like you're crazy. And I just was every little bit that that

00:11:25

sweet Bobby was doing to her was familiar. And I just got so just like creeped out by it.

00:11:33

Yeah it sucks It sucks Right Because it the kind of thing where when someone is going through what they believe is like oh I found something And so I having this great relationship in this great time I think it gets people at this vulnerable place which is kind of what we talking about like why it so difficult And so you see like you become that person So you like OK you I see how you making this wrong decision You basing you giving too much importance to stuff that actually doesn matter And you not paying attention to the stuff that does or you kind of ignoring it

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which is what we all do. Because you're being mentally manipulated by using the basic need in

00:12:16

life, which is love and companionship that, you know, it doesn't have to be a relationship,

00:12:21

but we all need somehow and it's just heartbreaking well it's dirty it's dirty business it's like

00:12:27

yeah because to then manipulate a thing like that which is it's just the grossest thing that you can

00:12:36

do in sincerely yeah just to get your way to get money to get power well this one's so weird

00:12:44

over someone because there isn't gain there isn't monetary gain which i think everyone else would

00:12:50

understand, you know, like, or her friends would have been like, stop doing this. You're giving

00:12:54

too much money. Like, but it wasn't that that wasn't involved in it. It was just purely emotional

00:12:59

manipulation for someone else's power trip. Yeah. For it's, it's definitely goes into the area of

00:13:08

either sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies of like, why else would you hurt a person for 10

00:13:15

years. Hey, I have something positive. If you need a palate cleanser, everyone after

00:13:21

there's a new HGTV, HG television show, HGTV show called Ugliest House in America,

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hosted by Retta from Parks and Recreation. And she's, she's a comedian. She's so freaking

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hilarious. And she basically just goes around the country look and people submit their house

00:13:42

as the ugliest house in America. So we've got what we've talked about before, blue shag carpet in the bathroom

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and like mirrors on the ceiling, like the ugliest fucked up houses you've seen. And they're all competing for one of them

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to get a renovation. So everyone else is just showing off their ugly ass house. It's, and Red is so fucking funny in it.

00:14:06

Like she's just, it's just, and she looks, she looks incredible. like her clothes are insane and awesome and like it's just really fun to watch wait so sorry people

00:14:17

like are basically giving reddit a tour of their house being like look how gross this is yeah give

00:14:22

me a renovation and they're like there's like they do all over the country and then they're like one

00:14:28

of you will get it so everyone else is fucked like an ugly ass house but it's so enjoyable like

00:14:35

vince and i watch and are just like what the fuck like look at that like just shit is it's everywhere

00:14:41

now sorry to ask but is are the people did are they responsible for some of the decoration did

00:14:47

they buy a house it's just old and they can't afford to yes none of them have done

00:14:53

are guilty it's not their fault none of them are guilty they got in a house for a bargain

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or they liked it at the time and then it's just not functional but yeah it's it's really like

00:15:03

really entertaining ugliest house in america is what it's called that sounds good yeah so it's a

00:15:09

A good palate cleanser. I have a good recommendation. Okay. And this is one of those ones, you know, when you're kind of like, I love, here's why I

00:15:19

love podcasting. One of the many reasons, because there's literally a billion podcasts.

00:15:24

So good luck finding like, you know, there's lists, there's networks, there's people giving

00:15:30

you recommendations, but it's also like I consume podcasts very quickly. So I'm always searching for one that's going to like really hook me in and be like, oh, I want to go back to that.

00:15:42

And I did this one. I found this one randomly because I think I just put in true crime and just saw what came up.

00:15:51

I swear to God. So this is a C-13 original. Our friends over at Cadence 13, they know how to make a limited series podcast.

00:16:00

It's called Gone South. It's hosted by a guy named Jed Lipinski. and it is the story um it's from the 80s and it's about a female lawyer um in uh this very small

00:16:15

like gated community outside of norlands and uh this woman her name was margaret coon very successful

00:16:21

um lawyer and she was murdered one night and it's the story of basically them it was an unsolved

00:16:31

murder for a long time and then basically getting back into it and going into it and trying to figure

00:16:37

out who was responsible and it's really well done the interviews are mind-boggling you know that

00:16:44

like a legit New Orleans accent is kind of amazing to listen to it's like the south with a twist of

00:16:52

lemon um it was such a delightful listen there are only it's a it's short I think it was only

00:17:00

six or seven episodes. Oh, I'm sorry. There's eight episodes, but I'm going to give it five

00:17:05

stars right now. Now that I'm on here. Um, it was, it's just so good. It's just like it,

00:17:11

you breeze through it and it's just like the eighties weren't that long ago to me,

00:17:17

but the eighties were 800 years ago in a lot of ways. Yeah. I've been seeing it on the charts.

00:17:22

I'll watch it gone south. Let's do it. Gone south. Really great. Really great. Okay. Just a good

00:17:27

binger as I do my morning dishes or whatever. Yeah, your morning dishes. Do you have morning,

00:17:33

afternoon and night dishes? I think for the Yeah, because Oh, I'm over here just with all my Julie

00:17:40

Child recipes. No, I think it's just I like to do I like to pretend I'm I'm a big soaker of dishes.

00:17:48

Oh, I'm gonna let them soak. Like I would do them. I'm not lazy. I just they're soaking right

00:17:52

now. They have to soak. We have to get that layer of nothing off of them So I like to let them sit for a while but then I don like a dirty house in the morning It bums me Yeah Yeah So I have to do a morning clean through

00:18:07

Vince and I both have like our things that we like to do and clean and stuff. And for

00:18:11

unfortunately, neither of us is dishes. Like it just, one of us needs to be like, no, but I love

00:18:17

doing dishes but it's neither of us here throw on your uh airpods okay turn on gone south okay and

00:18:26

see if those dishes don't bug you a little bit less this time because it goes fast hey girl uh

00:18:33

yeah i think that's all my recommendations that i can think of offhand i got nothing else do you

00:18:40

want to do some exactly right network highlights we might as well we're here we might as well

00:18:48

this week is uh the season four finale of tenfold more wicked because kate winkler dawson won't stop

00:18:57

can't stop won't stop season five which is called blood feud is gonna drop monday march 7th so if

00:19:04

you're wrapping up season four of uh tenfold more wicked don't worry because season five's right

00:19:09

around the corner. That's right. And we have a new episode of Nick Terry's incredible MFM animated

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videos. It's out now. It's the episode, the episode is called Hair Tie. It's on the Exactly

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Right Media YouTube channel. So please subscribe to that. It's the one where Karen

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uses a fucking pad. No, it does. Spoiler. All right. Just go check that out at Exactly Right

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media's youtube channel please imagine uh what what would be something i would wrap my hair in

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to tie my hair back to wash my face uh that would get the biggest to uh elicit the biggest response

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out of a room full of people that's right uh discover that now you could have actually said

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it i don't know why i'm trying to pretend that this is any more exciting than it is you've heard

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you've heard us talk about it so it's not like it's new but the animation that nick terry

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fucking achieves when he does these mfm animated videos are it's just like high art i'm just

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he's just incredible he's really good yeah oh that was that's in the middle but now we're going

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back to the um network shows i saw what you did is now closing out their black history month

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programming. They've got a double feature of horror films by black filmmakers. This,

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they're going to be doing Us and Tales from the Hood. Epic. A nice side by side analysis of two

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horror movies by black filmmakers. And then also, we have the Fuck You, I'm Married joggers back

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That's K-N-I-X.com. Code FLOW15. Okay, Karen, this is a story that seems like it should have been

00:24:24

huge, but I hadn't heard about until I saw it on Reddit late one night. But you've probably heard

00:24:29

of it because it's from your area of birth on your hometown. This is the Gypsy Hill Killings.

00:24:40

I don't know if I've heard of it. Oh, okay. It's also known as the San Mateo Slayer.

00:24:45

Oh, okay. And this terrified the San Francisco Peninsula area when in less than four months,

00:24:52

five women were killed back in the 70s. So the sources I use today are four San Mateo Times

00:24:59

articles, one written by Janet Parker, Rick Sullivan, and two by the staff, a Pacifica Tribune

00:25:05

staff article, a KTVU staff article, two BuzzFeed articles by Stephanie Bayer and Stephanie McNeil,

00:25:13

Associated Press staff article, a CBS 13 Sacramento staff article, the National Registry of Exonerations,

00:25:20

and a San Mateo Daily Journal article written by Anna Schuessler. All right. Nice.

00:25:26

KTVU is our home local station. Okay. There's only one, too. I fucking love that show.

00:25:34

That's where the great Dennis Richman was the news anchor for all of my life. Legendary.

00:25:40

I've talked about him on the show many times. But please don't forget the great Dave McElhatton,

00:25:45

who actually, now that I think about it, may have been on KPIX. channel five but um anyway ktv you literally you said that and like the weirdest thing of like my

00:25:56

heart goes like oh that's my station that's my home do you have that do you have that for orange

00:26:02

county i have it for la because we just got la's station oh right so um so dallas rains

00:26:08

our fucking incredible weather guy legend i've i've been with that's not it he's been part of

00:26:16

my life since I was a child. It was like you fucked Dallas Reigns. Oh, I've been with Dallas

00:26:21

Reigns. He was my first husband. You didn't know that? We've all been with Dallas Reigns and in

00:26:26

many ways. I think I used to do a bit about him because watching him, it really seemed like he's

00:26:33

stoned when he talks about and then I it was like because I used to only watch local I used to only

00:26:40

be able to get local TV in my studio apartment. In Hollywood. So I watched a lot of local news.

00:26:47

And every once in a while, Dallas Raines would come on and it was the most entertaining thing.

00:26:51

I guess maybe he always looked like someone I wanted to be my stepdad. I always was like,

00:26:56

mom, marry a Dallas Raines, please. I will be Georgia Raines. No, I wouldn't. Dad,

00:27:01

Marty, I would never change my last name. However, she, you know. Yeah, like a tan guy that clearly drives a convertible and has for 40 years.

00:27:10

Yeah. And like treat Janet right, you know? Yeah, and be kind of chill and, you know, just go to brunch and enjoy yourselves.

00:27:17

And be fun and let like the kids ride in the front seat of the convertible. I'm sure he had one of those giant fucking car phones back then.

00:27:24

You know, all that, all that local news money. Yeah, he immediately had a car phone with a ring cord.

00:27:32

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, where the fuck were we? Now let's get into the shit. Okay. January 7th, it's 1976.

00:27:41

Around 6 p.m., Veronica Cascio, who went by Ronnie, is waiting for a bus in Pacifica, California.

00:27:49

As you know, Karen, it's a quiet beach city about 12 miles outside of San Francisco.

00:27:54

And Veronica's headed to a friend's birthday party. But the 18-year-old high school student never makes it to the party.

00:28:01

And the next day, her nude body is found by a 16 year old boy. Oh, I know. Awful.

00:28:08

She's in a creek that runs through the grounds of a golf course near it's near the bus stop where she was last seen.

00:28:14

So she hadn't gone gotten far. She'd been sexually assaulted and stabbed more than 30 times in the neck, chest and abdomen.

00:28:22

I don't think I've ever heard this. That's near you, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. Pacifica is right south.

00:28:30

um it's my cousin lives there and it's very foggy you it's like socked in fog like crazy can't see

00:28:37

in front of you but it's a little south for for me growing up and maybe a tiny bit early for when i

00:28:46

first trailside killer was when i really started becoming aware that yeah serial killers were a

00:28:52

thing and maybe this was just a little bit early yeah maybe your parents were like go in the you

00:28:56

can have hot chocolate if you get out of the news living room and don't watch this horrible news.

00:29:02

Just a month later, on February 4th, 17 year old Paula Louise Baxter, she goes to her high school

00:29:10

in the evening for to rehearse for a play she's in at her Milbrae, California high school in the

00:29:16

same area. And that is where all my cousins, like all the rest of my cousins grew up in Milbrae. So

00:29:22

I didn't realize San Mateo is the county, I think. Yeah. And maybe one of the bigger cities.

00:29:27

But this is, I know exactly what this area is. Okay. But it's all like the foggy on the coast, San Francisco area.

00:29:36

Yep. So she leaves rehearsal at around 8 p.m. and never makes it home. And hours later, her car is found parked on a residential street, just three blocks from the school.

00:29:47

And the wheels, the undercarriage and the driver's side floor are all muddy. And the keys are still in the ignition but there no blood found inside the car And then two days later on February 16th a group of students gather together to do a search team which is like oh you guys And they search behind a

00:30:07

church in Millbrae where they find Paula's nude body in a grove of eucalyptus trees.

00:30:14

There are tire tracks leading away from her body, and she had also been sexually assaulted and stabbed

00:30:20

four times in, again, the neck, chest, and abdomen. San Mateo residents think that what's

00:30:26

being called the San Mateo slasher has moved on when there isn't a body found the following month.

00:30:32

They think that's the pattern. But those hopes are destroyed when another murder victim is found

00:30:38

the following month. During the evening hours of April 1st, 19-year-old Denise Lynn Lamp and a

00:30:46

friend have a shopping date at the Saramonte shopping center in Daly City, which is right

00:30:51

next to where I lived in San Francisco in the Sunset District. Yep. So Daly City is a totally sleepy town right outside of San Francisco.

00:31:00

The song Little Boxes is based on Daly City. It's like a total suburb. And Denise actually works as a cosmetic salesperson at one of the department stores in the shopping

00:31:10

center. So she knows the area well. and so when Denise and her friend are done shopping

00:31:16

the two women split up and they head to their cars with plans to meet at Denise's house

00:31:21

and the friend heads over to Denise's waits for a long time and when Denise never shows up

00:31:27

the friend goes back to the mall because she knows something isn't right she locates Denise's car

00:31:32

along with the security guard and when they look inside they find Denise's bloodied body

00:31:38

quote crumpled in the front seat and she'd been stabbed 20 times in the chest and arms.

00:31:46

Of course, the friend is absolutely shocked and confused as she had just seen Denise alive 30 minutes prior.

00:31:53

I can't imagine what happened in that short time. Oh my God. And also to be that person like that,

00:32:01

that is such a tectonic shift in your reality. That's horrifying. Yeah. Investigators, of course, noticed that Denise's murder

00:32:10

similar to the murders of Veronica and Paula. And like the previous victims, Denise was young

00:32:15

and they all had long brown hair parted down the middle. They do all look strikingly similar,

00:32:21

but that was also the look at the time. So, you know, who knows? But they do look very similar.

00:32:27

Yeah. And they'd all been stabbed multiple times, but investigators also notice a couple of major differences.

00:32:33

Denise had been attacked in a public place and she wasn't stabbed in the neck, which I don't think is

00:32:40

You know, that doesn't have to be an MO. And she wasn't sexually assaulted, although investigators.

00:32:47

Investigators can explain the first and second differences, but they have a theory for the third, which is that the killer did plan to sexually assault Denise, but she fought back so aggressively that he abandoned the sexual assault and murdered her.

00:33:00

So it also could have been that because she was in a she was attacked in a public place.

00:33:06

This is what I think that maybe he did that and then took them to another location in their car, it seems like.

00:33:11

And he wasn't able to because she fought back. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. So the following month in May, a fourth victim is found dead.

00:33:19

This time in South San Francisco, 26-year-old Carol Lee Booth, known as Beattie to her friends, had been reported missing by her husband, Michael, months earlier in March.

00:33:31

The last time anyone saw her, she was leaving a bus stop walking toward her house.

00:33:36

And she just finished her first day at a secretarial job, but she had never made it home.

00:33:41

So she had gone missing in March. in May, Carol's body is discovered in a heavily wooded area near Colma Creek, and her shallow

00:33:51

grave is just off a dirt path used as a shortcut mostly by high school students. But Carol was

00:33:57

known to use the shortcut, and she had been sexually assaulted and stabbed to death.

00:34:02

Investigators were fairly certain that Carol's murder was also related to the previous three.

00:34:07

Carol was older than the other victims, but apparently she looked much younger, and she was taking a path that high school students took,

00:34:15

so she could have been confused for a high school student. In mid-May, multiple law enforcement agencies meet to discuss the four murders,

00:34:24

seemingly related murders. All four are thought to be connected, but only the murders of Veronica and Paula have been officially linked via hair and semen.

00:34:34

And results show the suspect as being a white male with brown hair. And this is, sorry, 1976. So there's almost no testing that like, right. Yeah, that it that's, I just it's just so mind blowing to think back then that they had to solve murders. And with all that, you know, it was like, the saliva test or whatever. Yeah. So it was such old, inaccurate. Yeah, it seemed like back then it was like they could tell the blood type of the person. And that was about it. Right? Yeah. They were a secretor or not. Right. Yeah. Right.

00:35:07

But then it's like, yeah. Yeah, it's yeah, that's crazy. We're so lucky these days.

00:35:13

Yeah. In June, the fifth and final victim is found again in Pacifica. 14-year-old Tatiana Blackwell, known as Tanya, had been reported missing by her mom on January 24th.

00:35:26

She had left the house to run an errand, but never returned. Almost six months later on June 6th and just a mile from her home,

00:35:33

Tanya's body is discovered in a grove of trees located off an access road in the Gypsy Hill area,

00:35:40

which is how the killer got his new moniker, the Gypsy Hill Killer. And because unfortunately,

00:35:47

Tanya's body has decomposed over the last several months, the medical examiner is unable to tell if

00:35:52

she been sexually assaulted But however her body was found fully clothed And just like Veronica Paula Denise and Carol Tanya had been stabbed multiple times Law enforcement agencies continue to work together to solve these five murders in the San Mateo County area

00:36:12

But with the lack of DNA technology and eyewitnesses, they come up empty and the cases go cold for decades.

00:36:20

Then in March of 2014. So fucking. Long time. Yeah. The Gypsy Hill Killings cases are reopened after the FBI forms a task force with multiple local law enforcement agencies.

00:36:36

I fucking did not hear about this. Like, I didn't know about this at all. Same. They have the DNA available from two of the murders tested.

00:36:45

And by July, they have a hit on those two cases. Finally, the name is Rodney Haubauer, a 65 year old man who's been in prison.

00:36:55

or on the lam since the 1960s. In 1964, he spent a short amount of time behind bars

00:37:02

after he stole a car. In Michigan, where he grew up and lived at the time, basically,

00:37:08

he's in and out of prison for the next decade on stuff like breaking and entering robbery.

00:37:12

He occasionally escapes from prison, blah, blah, blah. He sucks. And he's released in 1975,

00:37:19

right when the murders start happening and moves out west to Nevada. So in December of 1975, he's arrested for raping a blackjack dealer in Reno and released on bail.

00:37:32

In May of 76, he's sentenced to life in prison for the rape. But in the next year, he escapes prison, goes back to Michigan, kidnaps his daughter,

00:37:42

gets caught, and authorities agree to drop the kidnapping charges if he agreed to go back to

00:37:47

Nevada to finish out the sentence. He stays in prison until December of 1986 when he escapes

00:37:54

again. And he's arrested within days in Oregon after he raped and attempted to murder a woman.

00:38:02

Halbauer was convicted and sentenced to 15 years, but was sent back to Nevada to finish up that term.

00:38:09

2013 is granted parole in Nevada and was immediately sent to Oregon to serve the 15

00:38:14

near term he'd received back way back when. And thankfully, finally, when he gets to the new

00:38:20

prison, a sample of his DNA was taken and entered into the national database. And that's how the

00:38:27

Gypsy Hill killing task force got a match for the murders of Paula and Veronica. Wow.

00:38:34

It seems like just a coincidence that within a year, they were able to catch him.

00:38:38

Yeah. Okay. Then in what was seemingly an unrelated case at this point, authorities in Reno, Nevada also received a notification that Hal Bauer's DNA matches one of their cases. That's the 1976 murder of a 19 year old Michelle Mitchell.

00:38:58

So on February 24th, 1976, in Reno, 19-year-old nursing student Michelle Mitchell calls her mom for a ride after her car breaks down across the street from the University of Nevada, Reno.

00:39:12

And within 10 minutes, her mom shows up and Michelle's already gone. A few hours later, Michelle's body is found in a garage across from the university.

00:39:22

Her hands had been tied behind her back. Her throat had been slashed. She had not been sexually assaulted, but her keys are missing and there's a cigarette, but real close to her body.

00:39:34

But here's the thing. Someone had been in prison for decades already for Michelle's murder.

00:39:38

In 1979, authorities in Shreveport, Louisiana, called the Reno police to let them know that a woman named Kathy Woods, who was a patient at a mental hospital there, had told a staff member she had killed a girl named Michelle in Reno.

00:39:57

Despite her obvious and well-documented mental health history, including a schizophrenia diagnosis, Reno police go and meet with her.

00:40:09

And despite her confession, only including information that had been reported in the media, as well as other red flags, Kathy is charged with Michelle's murder.

00:40:18

And in 1980, she's convicted based almost solely on her false confession. in 2013 so back to when we're fucking figuring out what's going on in 2013 kathy reaches out

00:40:32

to the innocence project they'll agree to help her and in the fall of that year dna on that

00:40:37

cigarette butt that was found near michelle's body is tested and as expected it didn't match

00:40:42

kathy but it did match an at the time unknown male however authorities kept kathy in jail

00:40:49

suggesting that perhaps she was an accomplice. So bananas how little they paid attention to what was really going on.

00:40:58

But finally, when the DNA matches Hal Bauer, Michelle Mitchell's murder investigation is reopened and Kathy is exonerated.

00:41:07

Wow. Unfortunately, there isn't enough DNA evidence to test in Tanya and Carol's cases.

00:41:13

However, according to BuzzFeed, authorities have, quote, no reason to believe anyone else besides Hal Bauer was involved in their murders.

00:41:23

Which would be great to believe, but like that there's only one murderer that year in San Mateo

00:41:29

County. And I do think that he probably was responsible for them. But what's so sad that

00:41:35

you and I know is that, or that we all know, is that there's a lot of bad people out there.

00:41:41

Well, and also in the 70s, there were those, like, we've talked about a couple times where

00:41:47

There's like there's a bunch of crazy shit happening in Santa Cruz. Yeah there was a lot of like drifter type drug people drifters you know ragers those people where it just like suddenly they want to kill a college girl that in college or whatever Like there that stories

00:42:06

We've done that one a bunch of times. You did the like the I-5 killer. And it turns out there were like three of them operating at one fucking time.

00:42:14

Like we want to believe it's just this one monster. But really, it's so far reaching.

00:42:20

Yes. But also we do have to remember that the I-5 goes from like Mexico to fucking Canada.

00:42:27

Right. It's, you know, that's not one guy. Sometimes these names aren't great. Right.

00:42:31

Yeah, totally. So then a bloodstain on Denise's jacket is tested and they don't find Hal Bauer's DNA.

00:42:39

Instead, they find the DNA of a man named Leon Melvin Seymour, who's a 71 year old sexually

00:42:45

violent predator and inmate slash patient at Coalinga State Hospital. So there were two predators at that time working in the same manner in the same area.

00:42:57

Seymour's first conviction was in 1973 for assault with intent to rape in San Mateo County.

00:43:03

And since then, he'd been convicted of kidnapping and sexually assaulting six women in multiple California counties.

00:43:11

So in November 2018, he's charged with torturing and murdering Denise. He pleads not guilty, goes to trial in March 2020.

00:43:19

COVID happens, trials postponed. And as of right now, Seymour's case hasn't gone back to trial.

00:43:27

Meanwhile, the task force is still unable to connect Howbauer to Carol and Tanya's murders,

00:43:34

but they want to make sure Howbauer remains behind bars forever. So authorities move forward

00:43:38

with charges for Paula and Veronica's murders, which does have the matched DNA. And he goes to trial in 2018. The jury convicts him on all counts. And he's currently facing charges for the murder of Michelle Mitchell in Nevada. So here's a weird little aside. It's like a twist that happened in the case.

00:44:00

So back in 1989, a woman in California named Eileen Franklin Lipsker claimed that she had a recovered memory that had been repressed, that her father, George Thomas Franklin Sr., had raped and murdered her best friend, Susan Nason, when they were eight years old back in Northern California.

00:44:22

California 20 years before. So he gets charged with Susan's murder and based only on Eileen's

00:44:30

testimony, his daughter's testimony, your face, cringing face is correct. Yeah, that's shocking.

00:44:39

He's charged with Susan's murder based only on Eileen's testimony, as well as that of her sister

00:44:45

who claimed that their father was a pedophile who had molested and raped them when they were kids.

00:44:50

And the case is super high profile and controversial as it was the first in which a recovered memory was used in a criminal prosecution.

00:44:59

And you remember this started a trend of like these disturbing repressed childhood memories coming to light with people in therapy.

00:45:10

Yeah. And yeah, it was like it was almost like similar to this and around the time of the satanic panic.

00:45:14

Right. Yeah. Because there's oftentimes, well, I mean, this is very generalized, but just my memory of the different cases where there would be ritualistic child abuse involved in some of these recovered memories where it was absolutely parallel to satanic panic, where it was kind of almost like in the consciousness.

00:45:35

Right. Right. So, you know, then you had the things like the the the McLaren, whatever the family was where they were running the daycare.

00:45:48

I covered that in our life. Oh, you did. I mean, it's just like, yeah, it's intense.

00:45:53

But yeah, it's it's horrible to think that these if these two girls lived through that, then they got into that position where they're the only two.

00:46:05

And that's the only evidence like why how you have to build that case so that it's not all on their shoulders.

00:46:12

Right. That's horrifying. It does seem in the end like so let me tell you what happens.

00:46:18

so I should keep talking about it when I have no idea what I'm fucking well no no you make a good

00:46:25

point and so George Thomas Franklin Sr. is found guilty and sentenced to life based on the testimony

00:46:31

of his daughters then Eileen said she has more recovered memories this time that her dad had

00:46:39

killed two of the Gypsy Hill murder victims Veronica Casseo and Paula Baxter in Milbray

00:46:46

So she's like, he killed my best friend. I witnessed it. And also he is the Gypsy Hill Killers murderers.

00:46:54

Mm hmm. So in 1995, though, his conviction for the murder of Nace on the little girl is overturned.

00:47:04

Eileen and her sister have a falling out and her sister confesses that Eileen's, quote, repressed memory that she had just had randomly hadn't come out of the blue as she testified, but had actually come up when Eileen had been hypnotized.

00:47:18

which seems like a lot of the way those old repressed memories at the time came up.

00:47:24

And it turns out testimony based hypnosis induced memories are deemed unreliable by

00:47:30

California's Supreme Court, which means that Eileen had committed perjury. So she just kept that to herself and it was like, it came out of nowhere.

00:47:39

I mean, she seems like she believed it. She just didn't want to admit that it came out of hypnosis.

00:47:42

It also feels like if this really happened to those girls and they had to be quiet about it for so long, then they finally came forward and were like empowered to tell the truth about how horrible their childhoods were.

00:47:57

Then it would almost feel like... Like, to me, the just the human part of that feels like it's like I need to really prove this.

00:48:08

I need to really drive this home. It wasn't just me. It was these other people. He's the worst person.

00:48:13

He's a serial killer. He killed these other girls. Like, yeah, it's almost it feels like more of that kind of please be on my side.

00:48:21

Like proof. Yeah. Well, I will say, though, so so DNA testing is done on the evidence.

00:48:28

Obviously, he's not the Gypsy Hill murderer, et cetera, et cetera. So although he didn't do that, Eileen maintains that their father, who died in 2016, did sexually abuse her as a child and sexually abuse her and her sister, which, you know, seems possible.

00:48:47

And in fact, Susan Nason's case is still unsolved. So it could still be possible that he is indeed the killer.

00:48:54

Like, there's just not enough evidence. but it's almost like I wish it was a time where she would understand that just that happening to

00:49:01

her and her sister was plenty right like in no way accusing her of lying or doing anything at all

00:49:06

knowing nothing about it but just knowing that feeling of like that that's enough yeah it's

00:49:12

horrible and then that but she might have believed it that's the thing like especially under hypnosis

00:49:17

and you start to believe this thing you know and and I read I read this other totally different

00:49:22

article about how memories are so fallible and people make up things in their head that they

00:49:28

absolutely believe it doesn't mean she was making it up or lying it might have just been that her

00:49:35

memory you know she's eight her memory was you know uh her memory was trauma-based yeah she went

00:49:42

through horrible things her friend died when she was eight like yeah all these horrible things and

00:49:48

her dad was a predator allegedly you know it it makes sense and it's really tragic it's really

00:49:55

tragic yeah so as for kathy woods she was the longest ever wrongfully imprisoned woman in

00:50:02

in u.s history who had confessed to the murder of michelle and in 2016 her lawyers filed a federal

00:50:10

civil rights lawsuit against freaking everyone involved and ended up receiving millions of

00:50:16

in compensation. She died on July 15th, 2021. And finally, I looked up the hometowns related to this case.

00:50:27

We got one sent in by someone who just signed it E, whose mother went to school with Paula Baxter,

00:50:34

the girl who was murdered after leaving her high school theater rehearsal. And she says that there were rumors when E went to the same high school,

00:50:43

you know, much later that there were that there was a ghost of a girl who haunted the school who

00:50:48

had been murdered. That's all she knew. So she goes home and asked her mom about it,

00:50:51

who was in high school along with Paula. And and her E's mom told her the story. And then

00:50:57

E goes on to say, quote, Miss Baxter, Paula's mother was wonderful because she was my grandmother's

00:51:04

friend and lived in our neighborhood. My sister and I would go to her house every year and sell

00:51:08

her Girl Scout cookies. And she would come visit my grandma. She made some fantastic shortbread.

00:51:14

I hope that these women and their families were given some small bit of peace with Rodney's

00:51:19

conviction. And I made sure to educate everyone at school on what happened whenever they talked

00:51:24

about the ghost. It's important that people know their names, that they were real people

00:51:29

with real dreams and people who miss them dearly. And that is the Gypsy Hill Killings.

00:51:36

god so it really was that guy that they got that they got the dna for but only for a couple of them

00:51:46

they got him definitively for three of the total murders yeah uh one of them wasn't him and then

00:51:53

two others it seems like they're pretty certain it was him god damn it's also very interesting

00:52:00

um because i don't think you said it for all of them but for a lot of them them being found

00:52:05

in groves of trees yeah yeah they're like all kind of nature outdoors and they all were kidnapped

00:52:12

from the street you know yeah it's just really wow yeah really tragic yeah also man just like

00:52:21

the mid 70s dude i just feel like it's just like free reign for these predators and then like

00:52:28

i mean of course also they got such short prison sentences for such horrendous acts of violence

00:52:35

against women. Yeah. And then we're able to fucking escape, you know, it's just.

00:52:41

Also, there's, you know, it, there, it, we've talked about this a little bit, but it was that thing of like the summer of love in 1969 had this influx of runaways and,

00:52:52

you know, college dropouts or high schoolers or whatever, just young people in San Francisco

00:52:57

thinking like they were causing, you know, that it was the revolution and they were going to change.

00:53:03

And it drew predators to that area because people were doing drugs freely. There was a lot of like trust and a lot of assumption that like people were going to naturally be good if they were like hippie types.

00:53:18

And so that just kind of struck me, too, where it's like every area you just talked about and all those, it's just like basically goes right down.

00:53:27

It drips out of San Francisco and right down into South City, Daly City, Colma, fucking Milbrae, where all of it along the coast.

00:53:39

I feel like hitchhiking was how you got around back then. Yeah. Right. too so like yeah not to say that they were hitchhiking i have no clue but it was well yeah

00:53:47

it was more trusting time right and like we were more naive unfortunately and then

00:53:53

so dangerous like the unholy combination of this yeah Man Great job That was fascinating Hello beautiful I Amy Eric founder of Madison Reed a hair color company I named after my daughter

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That's K-N-I-X.com. Code FLOW15. All right, well, we're going to change gears now.

00:56:50

Please. And I'm going to downshift you into a survival story. Please. Right? Yeah.

00:56:55

This is the way we like to do the one-two punch of the show My Favorite Murder. I believe Hannah Crichton is the one who found this survival story.

00:57:02

and the second she told me about it I was like oh my oh my god she's good I cannot wait she's

00:57:09

good at suggesting stories that like you're like you know me so well yeah well Hannah is a true

00:57:17

crime fan herself yeah and then she's listened to our show so she's a professional producer so

00:57:23

she's like and then she's our producer so it's kind of a dream come true yeah okay so

00:57:28

this is the survival story of cruise ship. Well, you know, let me just let me just tell you actually.

00:57:37

Okay. I like that little tidbit of start though. I just realized it's like it's all it reminds me

00:57:43

of doing the minis where it's it's going to give it away. Yeah, do it. Okay. So we start on the

00:57:48

morning of Saturday, August 3rd, 1991. Okay. And cruise ship musicians Moss and Tracy Hills. So his

00:57:56

first name is Moss. Amazing. Right. And his wife, Tracy, they're aboard the Greek owned cruise liner,

00:58:03

the MTS Oceanus. They're cruise ship musicians. So they're docked. They're gearing up to sail

00:58:10

from East London, South Africa to Durban, South Africa. It's a little quick cruise,

00:58:17

a little jaunt that they're about to go on. So the past two nights before that, they had been working and there had been both a bachelor party on the ship and a wedding.

00:58:29

So they have gotten very little sleep. They're both really exhausted. They eat breakfast together

00:58:35

that morning, but then Tracy goes back to bed to try to catch up on some sleep. Moss walks into the

00:58:40

harbor town to shop a little bit and then to call his mom from a payphone. So as Moss is catching up

00:58:48

with his mom, she expresses concern about the weather that they're having down in this area.

00:58:54

So the night before, during the wedding that the couple had to perform at, the ship sailed into a

00:59:00

storm and it got very, very rocky. So they actually were forced to dock during the reception.

00:59:08

It's not looking much better today, but Moss assures his mom that everything is going to be

00:59:13

fine because even if they do sail out and there is a storm, the Oceanus is big enough that it can

00:59:20

handle it. So when Moss gets back on board the ship, he gets word that the launch is going to

00:59:25

be delayed because of the bad weather. So departure time, it keeps getting pushed, but finally,

00:59:30

the weather conditions clear up enough for the Oceanus to set sail from East London.

00:59:35

So the captain, a man named Giannis Avranis, is a seasoned sailor. He's got about 30 years

00:59:41

experience and there are 571 passengers and crew members on board this ship. So normally Moss and Tracy would be performing a quote unquote sail away show out on deck once the ship like leaves the dock or the harbor I should say It a huge cruise ship not a dock But the wind is blowing at 40 knots And the swells in the ocean are

01:00:08

nearing 30 feet high. So the show's moved to the main lounge indoors. And even in these inclement

01:00:17

conditions, passengers, they sing, they dance, they're all excited for the voyage. They're like

01:00:22

into it, they also trust that the Oceanus is big enough and can handle it. So that night, dinner's scheduled for 7 o'clock, and then the evening cabaret show that Moss

01:00:32

and Tracy are going to be performing at is at 10 o'clock. But during dinner service, the ship is rocking to the point where experienced cruise ship

01:00:40

waiters are dropping trays and spilling food, which is something Moss has never seen before.

01:00:46

Because they're experienced in being like, you know, everything's rocky and they can

01:00:50

put a big, huge tray on their shoulder or whatever. So Moss isn't really concerned until after dinner

01:00:56

when he goes to the office to pick up his and Tracy's paychecks. And as he's waiting for them,

01:01:02

he watches as one of the computers breaks free from the hold and crashes to the ground.

01:01:10

And that's when Moss decides he probably should go up to the performance area and tie down their

01:01:15

musical equipment because he's like this is getting crazy yeah and even though everyone's

01:01:21

acting like it's fine it's fine like you know we better be safe than sorry so he runs up and tries

01:01:28

to do this very discreetly so as not to cause concern among the passengers so around 8 45 moss

01:01:35

makes his way back to their cabin his and tracy's cabin and as he does he notices security guards

01:01:42

and crew members, some of them wet and wearing life jackets, running around the ship and

01:01:48

grabbing belongings from their cabins. Cool. Right? A great feeling. Yeah. Just what you want to see on the high seas.

01:01:57

Not haunting, not spine chilling at all. Ominous. Moss rushes back to the cabin and he tells Tracy to put on jeans and running shoes because

01:02:07

they might have to abandon ship. Jesus. so once she changes um the two of them make their way up to the main lounge so their show's supposed

01:02:17

to start in less than an hour yeah and the lounge is packed with passengers that are waiting for the

01:02:23

show to start there there has to be a jig box fucking put on some fucking rock and get the

01:02:29

out of there there's like some um music being piped in it's like and the whole boat's just like

01:02:37

okay so uh so around 9 30 the rocking gets more violent and then the power goes out

01:02:51

what's up titanic like i would just lose my mind right that cool so the power goes out

01:02:57

the emergency lighting comes on it's dim yeah it's not it's not the same um so moss and tracy

01:03:04

along with another performer named Robin Boltman decide they need to get up there and start

01:03:08

performing and distract people and keep them keep the crowd calm so basically and there's an episode

01:03:17

of snap judgment um Glenn Washington's great podcast so good snap judgment and he also makes

01:03:23

spooked two of my favorite podcasts and this guy Moss Hills actually tells his own survival story

01:03:29

it's called don't go down with the ship so uh you can hear him tell the story but he basically says

01:03:35

he gets up there and starts going sorry folks we didn't pay our electric bill like he's just

01:03:40

he starts riffing and they're just fucking around they're trying to do and because there's no

01:03:45

electricity they can't they're not the they're not equipped to play normally so he's playing

01:03:51

acoustic guitar and they're getting everybody to do sing-alongs oh my god and he says that's

01:03:57

Fucking professionals. Total professionals till the end. Literally. Yeah. He also says that the key to any sing along in an emergency situation is you have to play

01:04:08

the Beatles because it doesn't matter what's happening around people. They will always sing along to a Beatles song.

01:04:13

That's smart. I was going to say sweet Caroline, but I don't know all the words to that.

01:04:17

And I don't think I think everyone just knows the chorus. Everyone just knows that.

01:04:22

But Beatles makes sense. OK. Okay, so this actually ends up working for a little while, but eventually, with no emergency announcement or any communication from the captain of any kind, Moss and Tracy and Robin are no longer able to assuage everyone's fear.

01:04:38

So clearly, you know, the lights are out. Yeah. Everybody's singing. The rocking's going crazy.

01:04:43

It's like, what is going on? So Moss leaves to find the cruise director. Her name's Lorraine Betts.

01:04:50

So it turns out that Lorraine has spoken to Captain Avranas and he told her that there's a problem with the ship's engine and that everyone needs to get ready to abandon ship.

01:05:01

Yeah. Oh, my God. Like, would you have told me if I hadn't asked you? Right. Exactly.

01:05:07

Like, what's why? Why are you being secretive about it? So Moss was completely right.

01:05:11

Yeah. And when he told Tracy, which I love because Tracy's now in jeans and tennis shoes, but she's up there like.

01:05:20

So Moss argues against this plan. He says the waves are too rocky for them to actually safely get onto lifeboats right now.

01:05:30

And especially in the middle of the night, there's no electricity on the boat, which means they'll be in pitch blackness outside with 30 foot waves.

01:05:39

If there's whatever 30 foot waves, I'd rather be on a giant boat than a little fucking thingy.

01:05:45

That's right. So Moss is saying as long as the boat isn taking on water it best to just wait out the storm until morning and get towed into shore in the light of day Yeah But Captain Evranus has assured Lorraine the boat is not sinking but he still stands by his plan to abandon ship Okay bro Good luck Not Peace You just like hmm it feels like

01:06:08

there's a peace missing here, sir. Yeah, later days. And so something feels fishy to Moss.

01:06:14

I knew something was fishy because I've already read this story, but Moss knew because he knew.

01:06:19

Got it. So he grabs another entertainer, his name, Julian Butler, and he's the magician, which this is like really firming up to be a great, you know, Ocean's Eleven style survival story.

01:06:33

It also sounds like a joke that the music, the musician and the never mind ship singer walk into a bar or ship or a lounge.

01:06:44

Well, and you were really close, but it's the musician and the magician get together.

01:06:49

Shit. Right. What did I say? Right. You were right next to it. So Moss and Julian, the magician, sneak down below deck towards the engine room to investigate the situation for themselves because they're like, we don't like we don't like this.

01:07:04

how this is adding up. As they make their way through the dark, eerie, abandoned underbelly of

01:07:11

the ship, they find everything to be dry, which is a good sign. But then as they get deeper through

01:07:17

the passageway, they discover that a set of watertight doors are closed and sealing off

01:07:23

an entire section of the ship. The doors are holding, so if there's a leak, it's clearly

01:07:29

safely contained on the other side. But if Moss and Julian open the door to find out, they risk flooding the ship.

01:07:37

So they collect all that information. They run back up to the upper decks to tell Lorraine what they saw, only to find members

01:07:45

of the crew lowering lifeboats onto the embarkation deck and climbing in alongside women and children.

01:07:52

So there's crew members that are like, I'm out of here and I don't care what the rules

01:07:56

are, which is insanely gross. Make way. Still, Captain Avranos insists the ship isn't sinking and that the lifeboats are just a precaution and no alarm has sounded and no emergency announcement has been made still.

01:08:12

So at this point, any trust that Moss may have had in the captain is gone. He goes below deck again, this time armed with a video camera.

01:08:19

And as he reaches the lower deck, he hears a rush of water. He peers around the corner of the stairwell landing and sees for himself proof this ship is indeed sinking.

01:08:30

Why didn't he tell anyone he didn't want to? Like, why didn't the captain say that?

01:08:37

I don't know. I don't know. You don't want anyone to panic? I don't know. Yeah, I guess he couldn't.

01:08:42

He just couldn't deal. I don't know. So Moss runs back to the upper deck. He sees Lorraine.

01:08:48

She tells Moss to come with her to the bridge. And he follows. and brings Julian.

01:08:54

And when they get there, the captain and his senior officers are nowhere to be found.

01:08:58

They're not at the bridge where the emergency radio is, where you're steering the ship.

01:09:04

No, they're all gone. Okay. So it turns out that the entertainment crew have been left to evacuate the ship on their own.

01:09:14

Fuck. Yeah. Imagine that feeling. You're like, sorry, me and the magician are going to do this?

01:09:20

You know us. these are seafaring fucking entertainers. At least he has a hat. Okay, so I'll tell you really quick about the MTS Oceanus.

01:09:32

It was originally built as a passenger cargo ship in 1957. Uh-huh. And it was named the Jean Laborde.

01:09:41

The ship changes hands and names at least four times over the next decade. And then finally in 1976, it's sold for the last time.

01:09:50

It ends up with a Greek shipping company that manages cargo ships, tanker vessels, and cruise ships called Epirotiki Lines.

01:09:59

I'm definitely not pronouncing that right. Epirotiki Lines renames the ship the Oceanus and renovates it to operate solely as a cruise liner.

01:10:07

By 1988, the cruise tour business sees such a boom in South Africa that the company TFC Tours of Johannesburg charters the Oceanus for eight months, prompting the ship's 1991 journey.

01:10:21

So that's just kind of basically how it got here. And the fact that like cruise ships were and taking cruises is really popular.

01:10:29

But the ship may not have been the best in the biz. Can you and I and everyone listening agree that we won't get on a cruise ship that is more than a quarter of our age?

01:10:41

Everyone. That's good. That's a great agreement. I feel like the newer, the better.

01:10:49

But also the idea, and I think we've talked about this before, because I went on a cruise with my parents.

01:10:57

My parents used to work on cruise ships, and that's how they met. But the one time there was a storm and I was like, I need to get off this thing right now.

01:11:08

It was so scary to me and it wasn't bad at all. It was just a little bit of, it's not turbulence on a ship.

01:11:14

Rocking. Yeah, I mean. Turbulence. I mean, there's a word for it, but like, it's so, I don't want to be on the ocean in bad times.

01:11:24

I've never been on a cruise. Unless it's on the Rhine or some like calm river where I get to go to the fucking Alpines or whatever the fuck.

01:11:34

Hell yeah. The Alpines. The Alpines. I don't know what that means. Is that a bard?

01:11:40

Or the Rhine? I don't want to fucking get on a giant boat. I don't. And then the ocean is like, can we stop pretending we know the ocean so well that we can just fuck around on it and do what we want?

01:11:54

Like, please stop it. Guys, fucking. Here be monsters. I've said it before. We know less about the depths of the deepest depths of the ocean than about motherfucking space.

01:12:05

Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Which also, don't make me start arguing why that means the Loch Ness Monster's real.

01:12:12

Okay. I believe it. Okay. So, the Oceanus racks up thousands of miles of travel between 1976 and 1991, and it's got the wear and tear to show for it.

01:12:27

There's loose hole plates and there's an ill-fitted ventilation pipe creating a 10 centimeter hole in what's supposed to be a walled barrier, a.k.a. the bulkhead between the ship's generator and the sewage tank.

01:12:41

So they're supposed to be just a straight up wall, as you would imagine, with no 10 centimeter holes in it.

01:12:49

So the ship's sewage system is also in need of repair. After all the showers and toilets across the entire ship start overflowing with bilge water on a voyage to Mozambique in the early 90s.

01:13:04

And as a result, several of the non-return valves on the sewage holding tank are removed for repair.

01:13:10

But unfortunately, those repairs are not made by the time the Oceanus set sail for Durban on August 3rd, 1991.

01:13:19

Which explains why at around 9.30 p.m. on the day that we're talking about, the ship's engineer hears an explosion coming from the engine room.

01:13:30

When he goes to inspect it, he finds water pouring into the generator room through the hull.

01:13:36

This flood quickly shorts out the generators and cuts the power to the entire ship, including the engine.

01:13:42

so when all the lights went off and they had to do their acoustic sing-along there was no engine power at that point cool the whole ship was dead

01:13:52

was this um sewage water or just water water uh it's sounding to me like sewage is in the mix here

01:14:01

yeah can i just say more like oceanus so i mean that's your choice steven edit that out

01:14:10

as juvenile and I refuse. No, you can do it. I'm not. No. I refuse. That's right, Stephen.

01:14:20

Stand up as the editor. Fine. Leave it. Leave it. But I take no responsibility for that.

01:14:28

You delivered it with such confidence. You're like, can I just say? Yeah. No, I was proud of it.

01:14:32

And then you had a blank face. And I was like, don't do that. Okay. I was just going to say you because you go, can I just say?

01:14:41

And then I was like, you can. But this is a permanent. Yeah, but that's on you. Of our time.

01:14:47

Email Georgia Hartstark at myfavoritemurder.com. At anus puns dot com. OK. So so as the water rises in the engine room and makes its way through that hole that was left open from the unfitted ventilation pipe and it starts flooding the waste disposal tank.

01:15:06

The engineer is able to seal off this section of the ship with those watertight doors.

01:15:11

But once that water infiltrates the waste disposal tank, the water begins to overflow through all of the showers, sinks and toilets in the lower levels, ultimately leading to widespread flooding.

01:15:24

So I think what happened is the because the lower levels are usually where the crew lives.

01:15:29

And so all of their toilets and showers started flooding with wastewater. And they were like, this ain't good.

01:15:36

We're out. I think that's that. But that is my absolutely amateur math. You're an electrical engineer, aren't you?

01:15:46

Right. And I don't want to brag about that, but it's high time I did. 220, 221, whatever it takes.

01:15:53

What movie is that from? Oh, wait, say it again. 220, 221. whatever it takes no mr mom too old i i loved it but i don't remember that i did love mr mom go on

01:16:08

okay so it's standard procedure in an emergency like this for the ship's crew to close the lower deck portholes to prevent water from climbing any higher

01:16:22

However, because most of the crew panics in this situation, they forget this crucial step.

01:16:30

Instead, they run and grab their belongings and rush to the embarkation deck to save themselves.

01:16:36

I mean, it's just like natural, your natural reaction, right? Like, what if you're like?

01:16:44

Yeah, I mean, if you, but the thing is, if you're a passenger, but if you work on the ship.

01:16:49

Yeah, but you get paid minimum wage and you get a fucking shitty ass room to share with some fucking guy who smells who also works there.

01:16:58

True. But it's that thing of like if you if you're sitting in the exit row and they go, hey, do you agree to help with this door?

01:17:05

You go, yep. Then you've agreed to help with the door. You don't then when there's an emergency go, sorry, that's too much for me because you already agreed.

01:17:13

So like, yeah, all they're asking them to do is close the portals. Some basics. Got it.

01:17:19

Shut some shit down so everyone else doesn't die. And it's like, forget it. I have to grab my precious Hummel figurines and run to the embarkation deck.

01:17:28

Okay. Fair enough. Maybe that's oversimplifying things. Okay. So this means that Moss, Tracy, Lorraine, and the other entertainers are left to lead the evacuation efforts themselves.

01:17:42

They lower the lifeboats and organize groups of 99 to board them. That's the maximum capacity on these lifeboats.

01:17:48

But as they trying to do this the storm and the ocean swells are causing the lifeboats to swing out and then come crashing back against the ship So they try their best to keep the lifeboats pressed tight against the ship by placing one foot on the ship and one foot on the lifeboat

01:18:05

and then trying to get as many people on onto the lifeboat before it swings away again in a swell.

01:18:12

So you can imagine this is, it's not like standard kind of evacuation process. This is like emergency evacuation.

01:18:21

Moss keeps running downstairs to check how high the water level is getting, And once it's high enough, he decides it's time to move the passengers who are now all gathered in the main lounge waiting to get brought out to the lifeboat area.

01:18:35

He now decides they have to come out onto the open deck, even though it's cold and wet.

01:18:40

At least no one's going to get trapped inside if the boat actually starts to sink.

01:18:44

Oh, my God. So now it's three in the morning and Tracy and the rest of the evacuation team are lowering the last available lifeboat into the water.

01:18:52

there's nearly 300 people left on board and the few crew members who are left now shove their way

01:19:03

through the waiting passengers they get on this lifeboat and they try to lower it down even though

01:19:09

there's only 50 people on it guys lorraine and moss start arguing with them saying if they're

01:19:15

going to do this they at least have to fill the lifeboat all the way before departing and by

01:19:21

starting this argument, it buys them time to load 20 more people onto the lifeboat before the crew

01:19:27

members take back control and lower it down into the sea. There are only 70 people on this lifeboat.

01:19:35

I take back what I said about them escaping. Right? Yeah, you can't do that. Also, I think

01:19:43

that that energy, like the panic energy, you know how like pilots are always like the most deadpan.

01:19:49

And I think it's because panic energy is catching. Once one person starts to panic, everyone goes, it's every man for himself.

01:19:58

We just got to go fucking do our thing. Right. And it's like, if you're going to work on the ship, you have to do your part to keep people calm.

01:20:08

Yeah. Yourself and other people. Or it just is mayhem. Well, I think that the panic being catchy to or, you know, what's it called?

01:20:16

When you catch something, the being chill is as well. So if you're like the chill guy and if you're fucking Vince Averill and not panicking that you're missing your flight.

01:20:25

Yeah. You and Karen and Georgia are missing your flight. Then we're not going to panic either.

01:20:31

Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's a it's a control. I mean, it's not an easy thing to do as we've watched Vince Averill not panic in many situations.

01:20:43

When he got when he had weed in his pocket in fucking Amsterdam at the airport. man that was scary oh that was there man man that was scary he was chill he sent us on ahead

01:20:55

without him you don't know you said you don't know me go get on the plane shit okay while this evacuation whole process was taking place

01:21:07

moss lorraine and julian were all taking turns running to the bridge to send out distress signals

01:21:14

on the radio. So each one would like go when the other ones were trying to load people onto the

01:21:19

lifeboat. So insane. So after several attempts, Moss finally makes contact with a Captain Detmar

01:21:26

on a nearby ship called the Ned Lloyd Meridus. So Captain Detmar, a calm, level-headed, experienced

01:21:34

seaman, asks Moss a bunch of technical questions to assess the situation, like their, quote,

01:21:41

exact position, how many people were still on board, our angle of lean, and our current strengths.

01:21:48

When Moss is unable to answer any of these questions, Captain Detmar asks Moss what his

01:21:53

rank aboard the ship is. And Moss responds, I'm not any rank. I'm a guitarist. Oh my God.

01:22:01

And then Captain Detmar looks into the camera and says, I'm getting too old for this shit.

01:22:06

No. Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Karen being a sitcom writer over here. I have to. I have to. I'm not above it. Oceanus. Look, we're all the same. We're all the same in comedy.

01:22:20

Okay, so knowing this technical information is obviously essential to organizing the rescue of this sinking ship.

01:22:31

So Moss starts to search the ship for Captain Avaranis because he's like, he's still on here somewhere.

01:22:39

Yeah. Because he knows who's left. He finally finds him on the pool deck, huddled under a staircase, smoking a cigarette.

01:22:47

What the fuck? Ding dong. Right? Yeah. He's melting down. It's fight, flight, or freeze.

01:22:54

Right. Or smoke. Or smoke under a fucking set of stairs. So Moss pleads with the captain to come back to the bridge and talk to Detmar and give him this crucial information, but Avaranus refuses to go.

01:23:08

So Moss is forced to run back and forth across the rocking slippery deck, getting answers from Avranis and then running back to the bridge to report those answers to Captain Detmar on the radio.

01:23:22

How fucking ridiculous is that? The last, perhaps most crucial estimate that Captain Avranis gives to Moss is how much time he thinks they have left before the ship goes completely underwater.

01:23:35

And that is about two to three hours. Oh, no. So now it's four in the morning. And with Captain Detmar's help, they have a rescue plan in place.

01:23:45

Helicopters from the South African Air Force are going to be sent to airlift the remaining 220 passengers off the boat.

01:23:54

Divers from the South African Navy are going to be in position in the water around the boat to rescue anyone who might go overboard And in the meantime the Ned Lloyd Meritus and several other ships in the area will form

01:24:08

a wide circle around the Oceanus. They won't be too close because the sea is still choppy and they don't want to run into

01:24:14

the boat, but they basically will be close enough to pick up anyone who goes into the

01:24:20

water. So Moss and Lorraine decide to split up the group of remaining passengers and set up helicopter rescue sites on the fore deck and on the rear deck.

01:24:31

Performer Robin Bultman stays on the bridge to maintain contact with the surrounding ships.

01:24:36

So Robin Bultman is on the radio. The first helicopters arrive about 630 in the morning.

01:24:43

Captain Averanas, who's basically been useless this whole time, smoking, whatnot.

01:24:48

he boards the second helicopter and abandoned ship at 7 a.m. Come on. So he kind of elbows his way.

01:24:56

He's just like, I gotta go. The entertainment staff directs the rest of the evacuation alone.

01:25:04

Like, no one's shocked. However, fuck this shit. However, what the living fuck. Truly.

01:25:11

Rescue helicopters drop down rope harnesses and Moss and Tracy load passengers into the harnesses two at a time.

01:25:21

So Moss, Tracy, all of those people, the band, it's literally the entertainers, the magicians, singers,

01:25:31

people who have no fucking training. Two at a time. It's like, oh my God. So insane.

01:25:37

Doing it. So at this point, the ship is fully sinking. The deck is sloped at a steep angle

01:25:43

And the ship is rolling onto its starboard side, which is its right side. Port is left.

01:25:49

Starboard is right. Aft is the back. Four is the front. I looked it up on Google.

01:25:53

Damn, girl. Right? We must learn as we tell these stories. So now it's a race against the clock to get everyone airlifted off this before the ship goes completely underwater.

01:26:06

As the passengers are lifted up to the helicopter, their swinging limbs are knocking Moss around, and more than once he has to grab the deck railing to keep himself from falling off the ship by getting knocked by them.

01:26:20

Thankless. At one point, the harness itself gets stuck on the side of the ship as the helicopter team is lowering it back down.

01:26:28

And with the ship rolling and bobbing still in the waves, if it dipped down too far, it could pull the helicopter into the sea.

01:26:37

So Moss hangs over the side of the ship to free the harness and save the helicopter.

01:26:43

And that's when Tracy loses her shit on her husband. And she's like, do not. What are you doing?

01:26:49

We made it this far. And so she makes him tie a rope around his waist and then to the deck railing so that he stops risking his life every goddamn second.

01:27:00

Which I entirely agree with her. Finally, there's just 15 people left aboard. 12 male passengers, Moss and Tracy, who is the last female crew member or entertainer on the ship, and Robin still holding it down on the bridge.

01:27:18

so they all get ready for their turn to be evacuated oh and by the way at one point it

01:27:23

did say that most of the entertainment crew were female so all of these very brave men waited till

01:27:30

the very end yeah but most of the entertainment crew that were running this evacuation were women

01:27:36

amazing um who stayed till all the passengers were off so these guys all get ready for their

01:27:43

turn to be evacuated when the helicopters leave. So the last 15 people are clinging to a more

01:27:53

steeply sloped deck. They have to wait 45 minutes with Moss at one point suggesting that they all

01:28:01

climb over the railing and they wait on the ship's side because that's now flatter than the deck is.

01:28:08

So the decks like this and the side of the ship, they kind of go out and walk on there.

01:28:12

Finally, the helicopters return. And on August 4th, 1991, Tracy, Moss, Robin and the final group of passengers are all airlifted to safety.

01:28:24

Shortly after about 3.30 p.m. that day, the Oceanus rolls over to its starboard side and sinks to the ocean floor below.

01:28:33

So, in an incredible display of bravery and calm, Moss, Tracy, Lorraine, and the rest of the entertainers managed to save every single passenger and crew member from the sinking Oceanus.

01:28:48

Holy shit. And Moss and Tracy make it out unscathed, although because of Moss's intense exhaustion and his dehydration.

01:28:57

Because remember, he didn't really sleep the couple nights before because they're late nights.

01:29:01

So he was totally dehydrated and he got to get put on a hydration drip at the hospital after being rescued. But other than that, they were fine.

01:29:09

Oh, my God. As for Captain Avronis and his crew, they are alive, but they're not well.

01:29:15

They receive tons of criticism for essentially abandoning their passengers along with the ship.

01:29:22

He and four of his key crew members are evaluated by a Greek inquiry board and prosecuted for betraying the responsibilities of a ship's master.

01:29:30

But they don't see prison time. And the captain continues to captain ships until he retires.

01:29:37

No. And Captain Avranas maintains that he left quickly so that he could help coordinate the evacuation efforts from the helicopter.

01:29:46

He actually made a public statement saying, quote, when I give the order to abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave.

01:29:52

If some people want to stay, they can stay. Want to stay You know what I going to I going to continue my vacation on this fucking ship Listen if these hippies want to hang out on this ship that ain my problem

01:30:05

I got to go. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Um, so, so after an experience like that, you would think that Moss Hills would be all done with working on cruise ships,

01:30:17

but he's not. He continues to work as a cruise ship entertainer. He continues to do so. And in fact, three years after the sinking of the Oceanus, he is working aboard a ship called the MS Akil Larro, which is a luxury clothesliner traveling from Italy to South Africa.

01:30:40

This ship has 979 passengers and crew members on board, almost twice the capacity of the ill-fated Oceana.

01:30:51

I mention this detail because wouldn't you know it, as they're sailing 125 miles off the coast of Somalia, a boiler explodes in the ship's engine room and engulfs it in fire.

01:31:04

But because none of the crew members are nearby when this explosion occurs, it goes unnoticed.

01:31:09

And soon the fire spreads from the boiler room out to the rest of the ship. And by the time the crew realizes what's happening and try to put the fire out, it's too late.

01:31:23

So instead they try to contain the fire by closing the fireproof watertight doors.

01:31:27

But they know this plan can only hold for so long. So the fire begins to consume this cruise ship.

01:31:36

Are we starting all over again? Yes. No. Once again, the entertainment director, this time a woman named Nadia Eckerd,

01:31:46

it must play a key role in organizing the evacuation efforts. What was Moss like?

01:31:51

Moss was like, are you fucking kidding me? Moss like pushes his way through everybody and goes right up to Nadia Eckerd and goes,

01:31:59

yeah, you're going to actually want to use me for this because I know some stuff.

01:32:04

Or is he like, I'm first on the rescue boats this time. Go fuck yourself. He's like, I learned my lesson being a good guy last time.

01:32:11

No, actually, he, guitar hero Moss Hills, has all the crucial information needed to organize the crowd and keep everyone calm and basically go like, here's what we're going to do.

01:32:24

And they really did. They know that the communication is crucial. And on this ship, there's passengers from all over.

01:32:32

It's a really diverse group. So they start breaking the groups up by nationality so that nobody gets nobody has a language barrier.

01:32:44

Right. So basically keeping everybody together. So there's always people who can communicate to everybody else if they don't speak the language of the person that's trying to help them.

01:32:54

Right. And so that everyone can constantly be made aware of what's happening, because in this situation for this evacuation, it's not a slow sink.

01:33:04

It's a fucking fire. So they're on a serious clock. One of the entertainers described how it felt ushering passengers into lifeboats with a fire approaching, saying, quote, all the paint was peeling off the wall and we were struggling to get them in fast enough.

01:33:22

And suddenly you could feel the heat right behind you. It was a very frightening moment.

01:33:28

Wow. So the nearest vessel that's able to take on evacuees is an oil tanker called the Hawaiian King.

01:33:35

And it's just a little bit funny because this oil tanker pulls up. And because this evacuation started during like a party at night, a formal party,

01:33:46

Almost all the passengers are wearing formal wear as they exit the cruise ship and get onto the oil tanker.

01:33:53

And eventually other boats come to aid in the rescue, including U.S. naval ships.

01:33:59

Unfortunately, in this evacuation, two elderly passengers die and eight others are injured.

01:34:04

But miraculously, 968 souls make it off the burning cruise ship alive, including the Soul of Moss Hills.

01:34:14

making this his second cruise ship sinking survival in three years. Dude, enough.

01:34:22

In 2000, Moss and Tracy Hill and their daughter moved from South Africa to the UK.

01:34:27

Tracy opens her own business designing and making jewelry, leaving her life at sea for good.

01:34:33

But Moss does the opposite. He puts all his emergency evacuation and rescue skills to good use and becomes a cruise director.

01:34:43

Yay! I love it. He says that now captains listen to him very closely. Yeah, they do.

01:34:50

Although once a week he goes back to performing music. Sweet Caroline. Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.

01:35:01

Yes, if you want to listen to Moss Hill's firsthand account of the survival of the sinking of the Oceanus,

01:35:07

please listen to Snap Judgment. The episode is called Down With the Ship. And that is the unbelievable story of two-time sinking cruise ship survivor Moss Hills and his incredibly brave wife, Tracy.

01:35:21

Wow. Look for the helpers, right? I mean. As Mr. Rogers said, look for the fucking helper.

01:35:30

He didn't say the F word, but look for the helpers. Look for the helpers and keep your eye out for the people.

01:35:37

The captain smoking cigarettes under stairs. And the fire on the cruise. that you're on. Try to keep it aware of explosions, especially if you're, uh, if you work down in the,

01:35:48

in the boiler room, just don't go to sleep. If you're on a cruise, keep your eyes open at all

01:35:52

times. And don't be afraid to communicate even when it's bad news. I know it's, it can be hard,

01:35:58

but go ahead and run that. bad news straight up to you know right somebody with a radio as soon as you can it's all about

01:36:05

being vulnerable as Brene Brown would say like you know be vulnerable be like hey this ship is

01:36:12

sinking hey I have a lot of fear around the sinking of this ship that's happening right now

01:36:17

that you now have a lot of fear about as well yeah um let's talk about it on the lifeboat great job

01:36:24

fuck man that was great so the sources for this story uh there's a website that moss actually put

01:36:33

together himself it's called www.oceanasinking.com where it's basically his firsthand account plus

01:36:41

pictures from early 90s uh people waiting to be rescued off of a ship oh i can't wait to see the

01:36:48

pictures. They don't seem that upset. Like I think that the entertainers kept everybody pretty calm

01:36:54

for as long as they possibly could. I love it. There's also the Wikipedia page. There's the

01:36:59

snap judgment episode down with the ship. There's a YouTube video entitled Oceana Sinks. There is

01:37:08

this is pretty hilarious. I read this article. It's it's for the hoot, which is whispering lane

01:37:15

school paper and it's written by an author named Joshua Sermon, S-I-R-M-A-N. And it just was entitled Weird But True Story The Guitarist and Sinking Ships And it was like four with from what looked like a high school newspaper about about this this story which I kind of loved Oceanus captain insisted

01:37:36

on early rescue diver says, and that's from the Desart News. There is a website called deeperblue.com

01:37:45

that had an article by Philip G. Van Rensburg, a New York Times archive about this story,

01:37:53

Wikipedia page about the sinking of the MS Achille Lauro and there is an LA Times archive article

01:38:01

that seems to be staff written about the sinking of the Achille Lauro and the praise

01:38:07

of the crew the survivors praising the crew what a great job that second sip shinking

01:38:15

do it I'm done I'm so done we fucking did it man you did it i did it even did it we all did it we did it and we've done it

01:38:28

again we've done it once again but i really thought this was going to be the short one

01:38:33

no we did it all over the place it's everywhere look at it it's on the walls it's on the carpet

01:38:39

pretty gross it's really disgusting um so let's just say thank you guys for listening

01:38:45

As always, we're you're you're our muse. You're our you're our inspiration. That's right.

01:38:52

You would stay on the ship with us and we appreciate you for that We would all go on to the starboard aft part of the ship Meet me at the starboard aft and let get off the sinking ship from there together

01:39:07

Or let's stay in the lounge and karaoke. Sweet Caroline. Sweet Caroline and I will absolutely grab a bottle of Malibu rum and pour it all over my face as that ship goes down.

01:39:19

You know we will. You know us. You know that's going to happen. I guess the only thing you'll have to say is stay sexy.

01:39:27

And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.

01:39:39

Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton. Associate producer, Alejandra Keck. Engineer and mixer, Stephen.

01:39:45

Ray Morris. Researchers, Jay Elias and Haley Gray. Send us your hometowns and your fucking hoorays at myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.

01:39:53

And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritemurder and Twitter at myfavemurder.

01:39:59

And for more information about this podcast, our live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult, go to myfavoritemurder.com.

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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgi

315 - Here Be Monsters!

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