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00:01:28
My favorite murder Hello. Hello. And welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark.
00:01:48
That's Karen Kilgariff. And I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. And this is Tenfold More Wicked.
00:01:53
The Cliffhanger. We're back. We're back, baby. Yes. That story was wild and exciting.
00:02:03
And there's more. When we last left off at Penn Rillington Place, bodies are piling up.
00:02:12
That's right. Thighbones are being leaned against fences. Can I change my mind and say that I think the husband didn't do it?
00:02:19
Nope. It's too late. No. You picked your horse. Now you've got to ride it to the finish line.
00:02:24
I'm sorry, Georgie. I don't ride horses. and I don't want to. It's the tough love of horseback riding
00:02:31
vis-a-vis podcasting. This is just how it is. No, I want to get bucked off and change my mind.
00:02:37
Well, there's more info to come. So don't wishy-wash flip-flop just yet. There's still more time.
00:02:42
I do want to have a disclaimer in that I have picked up some sort of plague within the last two days.
00:02:50
Not a COVID plague, but a plague that has wreaked havoc on my nose and my throat.
00:02:54
So if I have a little gulp or if I feel too lazy. You sound great. Yeah, I think you sound good.
00:03:00
Yeah. Oh, not that. And the magic of editing, we've got Andrew, Ethan, uh-oh, she's back.
00:03:07
She actually, to prove her own point, is now going into fits of coughing to be like, how dare you?
00:03:13
No, you sound great. You sound amazing. We love that cough. That's great for podcasting.
00:03:18
And it actually kind of fits the story because we're in the middle of this crazy fog.
00:03:22
This was the sound that was plaguing London in 1952. Don't make me laugh. Can we get some coarse clopping noises on cobblestone?
00:03:31
The 50s. Not helping. Nobody's helping in this situation. Oh, right. There's cars.
00:03:36
Shut up. There's cars. Everyone knows there's cars. Shut up. You're going to make me gag now.
00:03:44
I have that effect on people. Why don't you all catch up? Let me mute myself and then I'll come back.
00:03:48
We've got nothing to talk about. It's all about you. You need some hot lemon honey water or something.
00:03:55
Is that what that is? Oh, it's missing. She knows. You know what it's missing? A little splash of whiskey, baby.
00:03:59
Yeah, just to calm it all down. I usually don't get bad allergies. I don't know what happened, but I don't know.
00:04:05
So much energy coming from you guys. I think I just took something on. Is it bad juju or something?
00:04:10
Did somebody do something wrong and you put it on me? Maybe seeing my cat right here is like suddenly allergy attack.
00:04:17
Well, I think making this a two-parter sprung us into something. Yes. some other. Yeah, we agreed to something we could have never known.
00:04:24
That we, George and I entirely benefit from because that means that's one show we don't
00:04:28
have to do. That's right. The homework for ourselves. So we were like, yeah, love it.
00:04:33
Yeah, I hate homework too. Okay, I think I'm ready. All right. So let's go over what we already know about what happened at 10 Rillington Place
00:04:42
in the late 1840s, early 1950s. So Timothy Evans and his wife, Burrell Evans move in. She's pregnant. She has a little girl named Geraldine.
00:04:53
And Geraldine and Burrell go missing about a year after they move in. Timothy Evans has a drinking problem. He's kind of a violent husband, a lot of domestic violence,
00:05:04
a lot of fighting between the two of them. And yet he seems to be a really good father.
00:05:09
He confesses to murdering them and hiding their bodies. So when Timothy Evans returns to Wales,
00:05:17
where he's from, he goes to the police and he confesses. He shows up and he says, I've killed
00:05:23
my wife and my child in London. The police phone Notting Hill, which is where they lived in London
00:05:29
at the time. And the Notting Hill police go down and search. And finally, after a few days, they
00:05:35
find Burl and the little girl, Geraldine, and they're wrapped up sort of mummy style in an
00:05:40
outdoor wash house that has not been used for quite a while. So there's a wash house and a
00:05:43
laboratory. And the wash house is really where people do laundry. And it's been sort of shut
00:05:48
down by one of the tenants, John Christie, who has said, there's some problems with it and the
00:05:53
water doesn work And so he discouraged people from using this wash house So Timothy Evans confesses and then he recants And he says that his neighbor John Christie is the one who did it and who killed these two people So John Christie says he was a wife beater He was a terrible person
00:06:10
Timothy Evans goes on trial. He's convicted much of it based on eyewitness testimony just
00:06:15
in general and character witnesses, but also primarily on John Christie and his wife.
00:06:20
They babysat for Geraldine. They liked Burrell. Burrell seemed like she was a nice woman.
00:06:26
Timothy was not a nice man. And so we think this is what happened. He is hanged and the story is
00:06:33
forgotten. We do know going backward that John Christie, who people call Reg, John Christie would
00:06:40
go and he picked up a couple of different women in the early 1940s when he was a war reserve
00:06:47
police officer, he picked up two women separately and killed them and put them in the backyard.
00:06:52
So he buried them in the backyards and he planted things over them and worked in the backyard all
00:06:56
the time. So he was obviously wanting to keep people close, whomever he was killing.
00:07:03
So there is a large gap between 1944, which is when he killed his last victim, and Burrell. There's about five years, four years. And when Burrell goes missing,
00:07:15
John Christie doesn't seem to do anything. He's visiting sex workers. He's opened up a little photography shop that is mostly sex work, it sounds like.
00:07:24
He's hiring women who are part-time sex workers, but also women who just need money to do sexy photos with him.
00:07:30
So he's a creep, but he doesn't appear to be killing. If we believe the MO that he is someone who kills people,
00:07:40
a certain type of woman, and puts them around him, the backyard or wherever, So in 1952, he gets tired of it all.
00:07:48
I think he just gets tired in general. He was 54. And he quits his job in December.
00:07:54
And then he strangles his wife, Ethel, who was continually getting on his nerves.
00:08:00
He pulls up the floorboards and the parlor. He puts her under the floorboards. He gets several keepsakes.
00:08:06
And it seems like he is ready to transition into something in his life. So I told you the story of the police officer who was invited inside and this horrible smell
00:08:17
that was happening in the parlor. And he found out later on that it was because he was standing
00:08:22
above Ethel Christie's body. So this is all, of course, really terrible. We're in December of 1952.
00:08:30
Let's pretend that we're not even thinking about Burl and Geraldine being two of his victims.
00:08:36
So you've got two women in the garden and you've got his wife under the floorboards in the parlor.
00:08:41
Then you've got a woman coming up in January whose name was Kathleen Maloney. And she was a sex worker, full-time sex worker from Ladbroke Grove area, which is close by
00:08:52
Notting Hill. And she was a woman who drank an awful lot. And she was someone who was very popular, not popular as in a sex worker would be popular
00:09:04
with clients. She just was a friendly person. She was a really nice person. And she met John Christie one night.
00:09:10
And again, in the grand scheme of post-war London, where you have a lot of really angry men who have just served in World War II and their home.
00:09:22
And John Christie is not such a bad person as someone who's soliciting you for sex work.
00:09:29
So he gets her pretty drunk. He gets her home to 10 Rillington Place. Of course, now Ethel is dead.
00:09:36
So he is totally unrestrained as far as who he brings home and when. We have a lot of different people living in the building at this point, a lot of people coming and going.
00:09:45
So no one is noticing people coming in and out of this building because it's just happening all the time.
00:09:51
So he employs the way of killing that he did previously, which was now about 10 years old.
00:09:58
So he's got the menthol concoction that he has in a jar, and he's got one piece of rubber that leads to a mouthpiece for the woman to breathe in.
00:10:09
and another piece of rubber that leads to the gas tap at the back of his stove. And he has a bull clip now. So this is where he really starts to employ the bull clip,
00:10:17
which doesn't seem like a big deal, but it's fast for him. He turns on the gas. It's already been on. He can release the bull clip and it's just very quick.
00:10:26
Kathleen Maloney is knocked out. He sexually assaults her and then he strangles her.
00:10:31
So this is a method that he's sort of perfected. Again, John Christie is a physically weak person.
00:10:38
So Kathleen Maloney is dead. He has no room in the parlor because his wife is there.
00:10:43
He doesn't have room in the garden any longer because there's two women there. So he does something that is really interesting and really gross as far as I'm concerned.
00:10:52
He goes to the kitchen and he removes part of the kitchen alcove. That's sort of where a coal storage unit used to be.
00:10:59
And he removed it and he placed her body inside of it. And then he put a false wall in and wallpapered over it.
00:11:06
So he has a body now in the open. And Lynn Trevelyan, the police officer, had smelled his wife, you know, who was in the floorboards, which is the wood was pretty thick.
00:11:18
So I'm not sure what he was thinking. He started using a lot of lye, according to his neighbors, inside and outside and all around to hopefully cover up the smell.
00:11:28
Also, this is happening in January in London, which is very cold and very dry. There's not a lot of precipitation.
00:11:34
So she sort of mummifies all of the people around them that he's buried around him have mummified.
00:11:41
So you go a few weeks later and he meets a woman named Rita Nelson who was from Belfast.
00:11:46
And she was also visiting her sister and she meets Christy. She is six months pregnant at the time and she has a family back in Belfast who are looking out for her So very similar situation as Kathleen Maloney He meets her at a pub He gets her really really drunk because he has the money Now he also running out of money
00:12:08
He has sold Ethel's jewelry. He kept her wedding ring, but then he later sold it. He sold her
00:12:14
clothes. He actually offers Kathleen Maloney some clothes. That's one of the ways he got her back
00:12:18
to the flat was saying, I've got all these great clothes. And it was his wife's clothes.
00:12:23
He's selling furniture. He's really scraping the bottom of the barrel because he has no money because he's quit his job.
00:12:29
And it's two months later. So he meets Rita Nelson. She comes back. The same thing happens.
00:12:35
She breathes in these fumes, these carbon monoxide fumes, and she dies. Now, one key forensic thing, when you breathe in carbon monoxide, you are poisoned and it gives you this sort of pinkish hue, which stays for a very, very long time,
00:12:51
which is why they've been able to exhume bodies and many times still see that you can see that
00:12:57
there's evidence of carbon monoxide poisoning. That actually becomes key later on. So Rita Nelson
00:13:03
dies. He puts her in the same alcove. He takes down the wall, takes down the wallpaper, puts
00:13:08
another two women back in this alcove and he wallpapers them back in. Nobody's suspicious.
00:13:15
Now, Ethel's family, remember what I told you? She goes to visit her family a lot.
00:13:19
Ethel's family is curious about how come she hasn't come to visit because I think she went
00:13:24
in early, early December right before she was killed, right before the fog started.
00:13:29
And they hadn't seen her since. And it was unusual to not see her around the holidays.
00:13:34
So he had bought some postcards and he had written in his hand, this was smart, he had written in his hand and he said, Ethel's arthritis is so bad that she asked me to write
00:13:44
this postcard for you. And they didn't think anything of it. Her family was never suspicious
00:13:48
until all of this starts to come out. Because he was good at covering things up.
00:13:53
Yeah, but now he's like tying himself directly to it by name, which is really bad.
00:13:57
It's totally reminding me of the H.H. Holmes story in Chicago. But yeah. Also just the idea that you could put someone behind a wall,
00:14:07
but it's in your kitchen. He's keeping them so close. Extra creepy. What do you think that means?
00:14:13
And y'all's experience hearing, I mean, more stories than I've probably ever heard.
00:14:17
Is that some sort of sadistic, weird thing for him? Or is it a practical thing? I think practical.
00:14:23
Like you're in a crowded city and I'm sure there's police patrolling the streets at night,
00:14:31
especially if you're in a bad neighborhood like that. I don't think it'd be easy to secret a body out of there.
00:14:37
I totally agree. And then also I think there's that like it's ownership and control.
00:14:42
Right. It's essentially, it's totally more convenient, but it's also like, it's the ultimate trophy to keep.
00:14:49
You know what I mean? It's just like, I did this, that creepy, creepy serial killer thing.
00:14:54
But just behind the wall is horrifying. It is. And thin walls, and you can smell it.
00:15:00
And maybe this was something he enjoyed. I don't know. But it's pretty gruesome.
00:15:05
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00:17:01
Goodbye. So the last person is a woman named Hectorina McLellan, and she went by Enon.
00:17:09
So she was living in London with her boyfriend, and he met both of them at this cafe and befriended both of these people.
00:17:17
And he invited them both back because he was saying that he was going to have a room to rent.
00:17:24
And so they both went back and they checked out the room. And he actually said they could spend the night.
00:17:30
And he said he preferred that they slept separately because they weren't married.
00:17:35
And so Alex Baker agreed. Ina did too, I guess. And this was, I think, the first time he was really trying to draw someone in
00:17:42
who was not easily drawn back to his house. So he asked Ina to come back and to have a discussion with him
00:17:51
without Alex about the price of the rent. She comes in he offers her a drink she has some drinks Finally she becomes inebriated and she dies and he sexually assaults her And now there three people in the alcove
00:18:05
So to recap, two in the garden, one in the parlor, and then three in the alcove.
00:18:11
So now we're up to six. And he's running out of room. And I think he realizes he's running out of room.
00:18:16
Now, again, Ina has someone who cares a lot for her. and Alex comes back and starts harassing John Christie and says, where's my wife or where's
00:18:26
my girlfriend? I don't understand what's happening. And he said, maybe she ran off
00:18:30
and he was really trying to put him off. But I think that John Christie was really becoming aware
00:18:36
that things were going to be falling apart. He was running out of money. He was running out of space.
00:18:41
People could be suspicious and he was getting a little sloppy about who he was picking.
00:18:45
Also, he has all these bodies buried in his house and then now he's inviting people to the house.
00:18:49
I don't really understand that. And maybe you guys have some input too. I don't understand
00:18:54
inviting a police officer to come in and he was very brazen about it. And he had a quick response.
00:18:59
He was a smart guy. Everybody knew he liked to take things apart like watches and put them back
00:19:03
together. He was very bright. He sounds cocky and he sounds like he's getting cockier because
00:19:08
taking in a sex worker who no one in her life can connect that specific guy to her is one thing.
00:19:17
And it's like, you know, why sex workers get preyed on is because of the anonymity.
00:19:22
But then you're ringing home a couple. The boyfriend could just go to the cops and be like, we spent the night at this creep's
00:19:27
house and now he's being shady. He can be ID. Yeah. Or like, yeah, this guy sent us postcards supposedly in our missing daughter's name.
00:19:36
He's getting cocky or he wants to get caught. Or it's just the classic psychopath thing.
00:19:41
They think they're the smartest person in the room always. They think they're like, he has gotten away with it.
00:19:46
So he's right to think it in a way. But at the same time, they're always about pushing the boundaries.
00:19:52
You're standing here in basically a morgue. And I'm the only one that knows it. And I'm the one responsible for it.
00:19:58
Like he's this creepy little god in his world. He needs people to be there to up that feeling.
00:20:05
Like once you do it once, then it needs to be that plus, right? Every time. I think you're both right.
00:20:10
And as the story goes on, you'll see a lot more evidence of all of that stuff. So in 1953, he is officially out of room.
00:20:18
It's March, and he decides it's time to go. He has had enough of all this. He needs a different life.
00:20:25
It's unclear what his plan was, but his plan was to leave. And so, again, I need to comment about this.
00:20:34
He sublets out his apartment. No, no, no. No. He does. He brings a couple back, and he gets, I think it's about seven pounds, which is a great price.
00:20:44
back in Notting Hill in the 50s. He has the couple look around and they make an agreement.
00:20:49
And he says, you need to be careful because I'm doing this illegally. And they say, fine.
00:20:52
And he takes a few things and puts them in a suitcase and he bounces. He doesn't give a fuck at this point.
00:20:58
He leaves them in this cemetery, basically, of an apartment. Well, it's like short-term gain. He wanted a little bit of money for, I mean, obviously,
00:21:09
this is going to not end well. I don't understand this. He is one of the more confusing
00:21:13
amazing killers I have ever, ever read about, for sure. I think you're right, Karen. Either he is really getting off on the idea that he's this all-powerful
00:21:22
person, or he's just a megalomaniac and doesn't think he'll ever get caught, or all of it.
00:21:29
Yeah, all of it. So much time has passed that this guy's actually perfecting. I mean,
00:21:35
he has gone on caught to the point where he is able to perfect his MO. So some of these things seem highly risky and stupid, but he's getting away with it.
00:21:47
So it's not stupid, actually. Not for much longer, though, luckily. All right. Okay, so he leaves.
00:21:55
This couple moves in. The landlord spots a couple pretty immediately and boots them out after 24 hours.
00:22:02
So his secret is actually safe for a little while. Now, he checks in to what I would call as a senior citizen hostel, like pensioners living in London.
00:22:13
And he uses his real name. So he signs up under his real name and he gets a room and he stays in London.
00:22:20
So he could have left, but he stays in London. He goes to cafes. He hangs out. So, there is a tenant in his building who is interested in cooking in his flat while the flat is being kind of primed eventually to be rented out.
00:22:39
And the tenant tells the landlord, can I install a radio down there to be able to listen to the radio?
00:22:44
And he says, sure. So, he goes down there and he starts pounding into that wall and it starts cracking.
00:22:50
And he pulls it down because it's basically sheetrock. It's like a thin sheetrock.
00:22:55
He pulls it down and he has it in the UK, they call them torches. So he had a torch, which is a flashlight, and he stuck it into the hole and he saw three
00:23:02
backs of bodies. Women are just wearing bras. And he said it was just the most terrifying thing he had ever seen.
00:23:09
Oh my God, the horror. It's a horror movie. It's a horror movie. It is. And this is where it all falls apart for John Christie, but not for a really long time.
00:23:17
And this is where in my book, the intersection between the fog and John Christie come together
00:23:22
because the fog is this systemic issue of air pollution. And we know another fog's coming that's killed 12,000 people.
00:23:30
And yet, as soon as the press hears about John Reginald Christie, no one has ever cared about the fog.
00:23:36
No one cares that thousands of more people are going to die next year because it happens every year.
00:23:40
Instead, there is this clear and present danger of this John Christie, who is a serial killer and who's on the run.
00:23:47
And so when I'm looking through the archive of newspapers, you could see every day three people found an alcove.
00:23:53
The next day, wife found under floorboards. And then of course they started calling it the house of horrors.
00:24:00
start digging in the garden and all this stuff comes up. So I had yesterday promised you there
00:24:04
was a story about the police officer who unfortunately has a lot of encounters with
00:24:08
John Christie. The first is he's standing over his wife in the parlor. The second is
00:24:13
when John Christie finally gets caught because he does, thankfully. But this other instance before Christie is caught, Lynch Reveillon as a young officer
00:24:24
is sent over to 10 Rillington Place, which again has been dubbed House of Horrors.
00:24:28
He walks into the backyard and he has a lot of younger officers than he. He's supposed to supervise and they're excavating.
00:24:36
This would probably not be done now. They would have a whole expert team coming in.
00:24:39
But you've got all these young officers with shovels trying to dig through the trash that has been in this backyard.
00:24:46
Because it's actually even worse now than it was when Burl and Geraldine were in the wash house three years earlier.
00:24:53
Because there's more tenants, there's more junk. So he's digging and he's digging and he's watching finally this dirt fly.
00:25:01
And he sees this copper tin and it's a tobacco tin. And I looked up, you know, what kind of tobacco it was and everything.
00:25:07
So he's telling me this story. And again, this man is in his 100s. He's 102. So he says, so I said, what was it?
00:25:13
And he said, I could just see it glinting. He really knew how to tell the story of this guy.
00:25:17
So he's like, I could see it glinting. And I walked over and I picked it up and it's a small tobacco tin.
00:25:22
And then he said, I opened it up and there were more pubic hairs inside than you could ever imagine.
00:25:29
What? I was going with teeth. That is way worse. I would probably have rather had teeth in some ways.
00:25:36
Yeah. I would absolutely have preferred teeth 100%. And the problem was that they weren't particularly motivated to figure out whose hairs were whose.
00:25:46
But we don't know if this was a request from him and none of these were people who had died.
00:25:51
It probably was Ethel's for sure, his wife, and he had buried it. What the question was, was whether or not there were, were there more bodies based on the pubic
00:26:02
hairs? And there was just no way to tell. But it was an interesting story because it really did show he was pretty stunned by that
00:26:10
as a young officer. Yes. At this point, are they putting together that a couple of years ago, we found the body of
00:26:16
a woman child? Okay. So at this point, they're like, uh-oh. Yeah. Yep, and then they start, it's a real oh shit moment for the Metropolitan Police as well as the Crown Prosecutor.
00:26:25
But someone else has hanged for this crime. Yep, three years earlier. Let me tell you what ends up happening with him.
00:26:30
He doesn't leave, he could have left. So if we thought the Gabby Petito and Lacey Peterson case brought a lot of tips and clues from the public, this is 20th century type of clues.
00:26:43
They were sending in snail mail by the hundreds and then thousands of clues to where John Christie
00:26:49
was because now you have the serial killer who's on the run for one week and then two weeks in
00:26:54
London. People are spotting him all over the place. Someone said, he's my crossing guard.
00:26:58
He's my kid's crossing guard. I can tell by his hands. But it's hard as a police officer,
00:27:04
as an investigator, because are you going to blow these off? What are you going to do? You have to
00:27:08
follow all these. And he was in the city and he sat in cafes wearing sort of a disguise,
00:27:15
but not really. But that's how nondescript this man was. People didn't notice him. He was in a
00:27:19
cafe and there was someone sitting right next to him reading an article about him. And so now,
00:27:27
what do you think that means? I mean, why would he not just leave? He could have been Scotland.
00:27:32
He could have gone a million different places, Wales, anywhere where maybe people wouldn't have
00:27:35
noticed him, why would he stay? Yeah, because back then you could just disappear. You didn't
00:27:39
really need identification. He could have been gone forever. So he had to want to get
00:27:45
notoriety and get caught and stuff, right? And to see the world kind of freak out about his
00:27:52
taking of lives repeatedly and getting away with it repeatedly. I mean, that's a real debacle and
00:27:59
a circus that he caused, which you know he loves. Also, I wonder if he still had the photography
00:28:05
studio. Did he get rid of that? No, I think he had. Well, you know what? That's a good question.
00:28:10
It was rented. And I assume he had to let it go when he quit his job. Yeah, when he was going
00:28:14
broke. That was the hardest thing was that I don't know what he was thinking when he quit his job.
00:28:19
He didn't tell Ethel because she had just written a postcard to her sister and she didn't say
00:28:25
anything about quitting a job. And I think she would have freaked out on him. So I don't know
00:28:30
what the master plan was if he was just giving up, but he absolutely had to have known that he would
00:28:34
have been hanged if he got caught. So here you go. It's three weeks. And then it is all points
00:28:41
bulletin. It is the craziest list of tips to come in from psychics. And everybody on the planet was
00:28:49
writing in. It was like, where's Waldo trying to find John Christie? And finally, he is spotted
00:28:55
early in the morning below a bridge by a young police officer. And he doesn't deny it. He's
00:29:00
looking pretty rough and he's in London and he's taken in and he's arrested. And at this point,
00:29:06
they have found all the bodies, they have made identifications. So then we get a little bit
00:29:11
into the forensics so they can tell from the bodies what happened. So everybody was strangled.
00:29:18
So the three women who are in the alcove all have carbon monoxide poisoning, which we expect
00:29:24
because that's what he did. No carbon monoxide poisoning with ethyl. And of course, we can't
00:29:30
tell from the women in the garden because they were skeletonized by the time that the coroner
00:29:35
got a hold of them. So he's arrested and he's not really saying anything right now. He has a
00:29:42
public defender and the Crown prosecutor is assessing the case and trying to figure it all
00:29:48
out And the prosecutor is really nervous because this seems like someone who a lunatic and he is that Christie is going to try to have an insanity defense And that was a very real possibility because could a sane man ever do this
00:30:06
And of course, the answer is yes. Of course, sane men do this. So Christie is interrogated about Burl and Geraldine.
00:30:14
So here's the thing about Burl and Geraldine. They do not have carbon monoxide poisoning.
00:30:19
So that would be a checkmark in the Christie did not do it. Evans did do it category, I think, because that was generally his MO. I mean, I think that Ethel
00:30:30
was a little bit of a spur of the moment. Maybe they got into a fight. She didn't have carbon
00:30:33
monoxide, but everybody else had been. And of course, you remember they didn't do a sexual
00:30:37
assault test because it was a domestic violence issue. So we don't know anything about that.
00:30:42
So they start saying, the Crown Prosecutor says, you killed Burl and Geraldine, and he denies it
00:30:51
at first, and then he confesses. And this is the problem with the theory of whether or not John
00:30:58
Christie, which everybody on the planet has believed for years that John Christie was the
00:31:05
one who killed Geraldine and Burrell, because no one believes that there could be a serial killer
00:31:10
and another killer living under the same house at the same time. So Christie confesses. That's the
00:31:18
big evidence is one, it's inexplicable. Two killers are living in the house and don't know
00:31:21
it at the same time. And number two, that this man would confess he said he did it.
00:31:27
I'm wondering, okay, here's my theory. Can I quickly say? Here we go. No, let's do it.
00:31:31
He was an alcoholic, right? And so he probably would get blackout drunk. Maybe he woke up one morning, went out to the washroom, saw the bodies of his daughter and
00:31:39
wife and was like, I must have done this in a blackout. I am so guilt ridden because it's so
00:31:45
out of character because he actually didn't do it and wouldn't do it, that he confesses to it
00:31:49
because he's so horrified by it. But in actuality, he just put those pieces together based on
00:31:55
seeing the bodies. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think, Karen? That sounds very logical to me. Also, I think that idea just from learning based on what you've
00:32:08
told us, but the idea of basically a whole generation of men that are suffering basically
00:32:14
from PTSD and all the kind of after effects of that. So maybe the drinking and the violence
00:32:21
were a thing that he was constantly struggling with, that the fact that it escalated like that,
00:32:28
and that both he and his wife were fighting, the idea that the wife fights back, that that's just,
00:32:33
it's like the progression of that kind of domestic violence sickness in the household,
00:32:38
that it would make sense to him once he saw those bodies, like this is what this has progressed to.
00:32:44
And I'm sure there was plenty of blackouts before maybe that night. I'm completely in that. I like
00:32:50
that theory a lot. Okay, we can put that, we can make a column for that. No, I just have more stuff
00:32:57
to tell you. No, I like guessing along the way. No, but I love this theory because I had not
00:33:02
thought of that theory before. I really, I haven't. So the pathologist, let's talk about Burrell.
00:33:07
and this is a little bit where you have to speculate. And I know that you guys are not good at speculating at all.
00:33:13
So I'll just lead you through it. You don't have to say anything during this section.
00:33:18
We're great at that. So I looked at the coroner's reports and as well as the photos, Burrell's photos.
00:33:26
And whomever killed her hit her so hard that her upper lip touched the top of her nose.
00:33:33
So I sent that report because I read what the pathologist said about when he thought that happened. And he said, 45 minutes to an hour before death.
00:33:42
So I sent that to two modern pathologists, both in Chicago, and they agreed. They said,
00:33:48
yeah, you can kind of tell by how big it is and the amount of blood and how it would have caught,
00:33:52
blah, blah, blah. Now, I'm trying to think this through, and you guys can tell me what you think.
00:33:56
My thought was that John Christie has never hit anybody before. He whacked a woman with a bat,
00:34:03
but that's just not part of his thing. He's never really hit a woman before. Now, Timothy Evans has.
00:34:09
I am thinking that if John Christie does hit Beryl Evans in the face an hour before he kills her,
00:34:19
how has nobody heard screaming or, you know, I just, I don't know. It just seems odd because
00:34:27
I could see Timothy Evans and Beryl getting into a physical fight because they did that often.
00:34:32
and nobody really hearing it or people dismissing it. But I can't see World taking a hit from John Christie
00:34:38
and not reacting in some way that people could hear or something. It's just out of character for him and kind of for out of her too.
00:34:46
So what do you guys think about that? What about the possibility that Timothy Evans does hit his wife in the face
00:34:53
and she goes down to the neighbors? Is that what you're thinking? I was probably thinking that like,
00:34:58
She goes, okay. They get in a normal fight, but he hits her really hard this time.
00:35:03
And she's like, fuck this, takes the child, goes downstairs to the very respectable
00:35:09
downstairs neighbors who babysit for her sometimes. And he's a cop and I'm finally done with this shit.
00:35:16
And this is, she actually is going right into the spider's web. And Timothy gets drunk and blacks out and doesn't really know what happens next,
00:35:26
except for that he knows his child and wife are dead, which would be such a horrifying,
00:35:30
if that is something he actually witnessed. I mean, wouldn't you just freak out?
00:35:37
Well, you got to imagine that he wakes up the next morning, let's say he didn't do it.
00:35:41
He wakes up the next morning, he's like, where are my wife and kids? He looks everywhere for them, can't find them.
00:35:45
Like looks in the backyard, looks in the washroom that no one ever uses. Like is frantically looking for them.
00:35:51
And so would find them because he's looking harder than what he normally would in the backyard You guys are smart I know right Really It excellent It excellent speculating And that a professor saying that everybody That not just another armchair quarterback in true crime
00:36:08
I didn't say I was a good professor. I didn't say I was a good professor. Okay, let's continue because there's more evidence. So then we talk about the confession.
00:36:17
So Christy confessed. Now, he never confessed to Geraldine. So he said he went up in his
00:36:24
confession. He went up, he saw Burrell. He tried to gas her, but he said he turned on the gas tap
00:36:31
and the room filled with gas. And everyone, even the most naive police officers on the force said,
00:36:38
there's no way that happened. It wouldn't have killed her the way that he was describing it.
00:36:42
And he would have died too. And it was clearly kind of a made up story. And he said, I did not
00:36:50
kill Geraldine. And he said, I don't kill kids. So here's where the confession is a problem.
00:36:56
Neither of these men is reliable in any way. They both confessed and recanted and confessed
00:37:03
and recanted. They're both liars. They were both violent. So it's hard to figure out who to believe.
00:37:09
What I do know is that Christie confessed to a murder in Windsor when he wasn't even there.
00:37:17
And his defense attorney said, we're going to throw the whole kitchen sink at him and see if
00:37:22
we can get an insanity defense or the insanity plea to save his life. So I don't buy the confession
00:37:28
at all. And of course, you guys know, I'm sure at this point that the Innocence Project says a
00:37:33
very large majority of people who are wrongfully convicted are convicted because they have a false
00:37:38
confession. And it's not necessarily because the police have done anything to get that out of them.
00:37:43
They're scared. And innocent people do hire attorneys. They just do. Don't let anybody tell
00:37:48
you otherwise. They hire attorneys. So the confession thing for me is meaningless because
00:37:55
I just don't believe it. Burl doesn't show signs of any kind of a sexual assault. The other women
00:38:01
did. So there's that. What's weird about it is that I can see Christy killing a woman in his
00:38:10
building, even though that's not something he had done. It's really hard to think that he's
00:38:14
going to be able to drag her down four flights of stairs only because they were very narrow and he
00:38:20
was really, really wimpy. I mean, he really could barely make do just getting out the front door
00:38:27
and the back door. And he was able to get women obviously in the backyard, but also remember
00:38:30
that those two women were buried in the backyard 10 years earlier when he was in better health,
00:38:36
which is I think another reason why he didn't throw someone over his shoulder and go take them
00:38:41
somewhere else. I think he really didn't have much of a choice. So I think if he were confronted
00:38:47
with Geraldine crying, I'm not sure Christy's first instinct would be to kill her. But regardless,
00:38:54
the crown prosecutor went forward with murder charges against I think three of the women now,
00:38:59
of course, I can't remember. And Christy becomes the darling of the media, which is disgusting.
00:39:05
Everybody's vying for his exclusive. And there's something called checkbook journalism.
00:39:10
The newspapers in London would essentially bid on a defendant, and they would then pay for the exclusive rights.
00:39:17
They would pay for their defense completely and pay for the exclusive rights to their story.
00:39:22
So Christie did that. He had a full confession with the reporter. And in prison, the egotism was incredible.
00:39:29
He had pictures of himself in his cell, which is just not who I would choose to look at, I guess.
00:39:35
Oh, what a creep. So he had pictures of himself. All these women were lined up outside in the courtroom
00:39:41
and also around the jail. And he told one of the jailers there, he pointed at his crotch and he said,
00:39:47
they're here because of this. Oh, hard pass. No, thank you. Honey, no, honey. So he was finally getting the attention
00:39:57
that he thought he deserved, which I think, I mean, is that surprising to either of you?
00:40:00
Probably not. And I think it, yeah, lines up perfectly with not leaving, with basically just kind of being in the mix here and
00:40:07
in feeling the renown and the fame of evil doing. And he was kind of right in that way where it's
00:40:15
like, and then once you're known, then you're the name on everyone's lips. People like that don't
00:40:20
know the difference between positive attention and negative attention and they don't care.
00:40:25
So it's just like, it's attention. It's all that matters, like feed the beast. Yeah, it's pretty gross. And so he was getting all of this attention. He is, of course,
00:40:33
quickly convicted. He has not gotten the insanity plea at all. Everybody thinks he's sane. His
00:40:40
lawyer is trying to argue otherwise and is having him confess to more and more people.
00:40:45
But even Christie draws a line. And I've talked to forensic psychologists who I say,
00:40:50
oh, these serial killers have no morals. And they say, they do. They're just not our morals. They
00:40:55
have their own code of honor. Yeah. That's what I was going to say about him not killing Geraldine.
00:41:00
It's like, well, of course he'd kill Geraldine. He's a murderer, but it's like, because we want
00:41:04
to just think of these devils and we'd be able to spot them. But it's like, yeah, they have
00:41:09
rules to their awfulness and it's so surprising. And I think he has a real problem with women.
00:41:18
He doesn't have a problem with children. That's a different category kind of. And his problem
00:41:25
is with grown, sexually mature, independent thinking women and women who like men maybe,
00:41:34
or women who have a good time in life. It's a whole different axe to grind that he has.
00:41:39
So it is that kind of thing where like, yeah, I'm bad, but I don't touch children,
00:41:44
which is a completely different level of hell in his mind. Right. And that would have really gotten him pretty close to the insanity defense. And he
00:41:52
just said I not going to do that He also liked animals I don really buy into the whole checklist of what serial killers do He loved animals and he loved his old old decrepit dog so much that he actually put him down before he went on the run
00:42:05
He spent money to put the dog down, which was for him the most humane thing to do rather than let this dog fend for itself on the streets.
00:42:12
So, yeah, different set of rules. He's convicted. He's sentenced to death, which is no big surprise.
00:42:19
And when he finally goes to the gallows, he faces the man who most people have faced, an executioner by the last name of Pierpont.
00:42:29
And Christy, the last thing that happens, I'm smiling even though I'm not supposed to be smiling at this.
00:42:34
But the last thing that happens is before Pierpont pulls the lever, Christy says that, he says, my nose itches.
00:42:42
And Pierpont says, it won't bother you for long. And then he flips it. Holy shit.
00:42:47
Yes. Wow. That's like straight out of a movie. That might be only funny to me. Oh, my God.
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Quince.com slash MFM. Goodbye. So this causes all hell to break loose in Parliament because of Timothy Evans.
00:45:23
Because, oh my gosh, did we convict the wrong man and hang the wrong man? because no one could believe two killers were living in the same house at the same time.
00:45:31
They do a quick little retry and still find him guilty. Now, he was found guilty of killing his wife only, Timothy Evans, not Geraldine.
00:45:41
They had to choose one, so they picked Burl. I think because they thought for some reason it was going to be easier to prove.
00:45:49
So they still find him guilty. and about 12 years passes when there is another re-examination of the case by a guy named Judge
00:45:58
Daniel Braben. And this is called the Braben Report, which is pretty interesting if you're
00:46:01
into super old crime depositions and such. So he retries the whole thing and he comes up with,
00:46:08
to me, the most bizarre theory. And I'm just going to say it and you guys can just tell me
00:46:15
He thinks that Timothy and Christy were working together. No, no. And that Timothy killed his wife and Christy killed the little girl.
00:46:26
Why? Oh, like a strangers on the train exchange of you kill my relative and I kill your relative.
00:46:33
I think that he believed that something happened between Tim and Burl and he killed her and
00:46:39
Christy was trying to be helpful because the men were sort of friendly. and he knew that the little girl was going to cry and cry without her mom because she was still
00:46:48
breastfeeding. And also, Burl was pregnant at the time. And so Christy was trying to be helpful and
00:46:54
killed Geraldine, which makes zero sense. Whoever killed one killed the other. No. I don't believe this theory, but I think it's more likely that there were two murderers
00:47:03
in a building than it is that they were working together. I do still think Christy killed
00:47:08
little Geraldine. Not because he wanted to kill kids and because he was into that,
00:47:12
but because that was the unnecessary thing to do after he killed her mother. It's interesting to hear so many different points of view because you guys have brought
00:47:21
up a couple of things I hadn't thought of about him being a professor. Oh my God, A plus for us? The dropouts get an A plus?
00:47:30
Again, maybe not a good professor, but yes, you could say that. It only took us six years to get a theory, right?
00:47:37
ish, maybe. Now, let me tell you what happens. When Braben makes this decision, Timothy Evans
00:47:43
is exonerated. He was exonerated for killing his daughter, but not his wife. So it's all very confusing. This has been gone over and gone over about a million times in the
00:47:54
UK. Timothy Evans' family has been given money by the UK government because of, conviction. And they have maintained his innocence. I'm not sure if his sisters are
00:48:05
still alive, but probably about 10 years ago, they were. And there was a big push for them to
00:48:11
fully investigate this. I don't know how they would be able to do that 70 years later. But his
00:48:16
half-sister was given compensation because of the posthumous pardon. Lots of books and movies.
00:48:21
Timothy Roth, who I love so much, plays Christie in the latest BBC iteration of it.
00:48:27
So I will tell you, I feel fairly certain that Tim Evans killed his wife and child.
00:48:34
That's how I feel. And I was pretty much the only one, I think, until I read Burl Evans' younger brother, who was 13, when she and Tim were married.
00:48:46
and he wrote a book and he said in the book that he would go and visit when he was 13 and that
00:48:55
Timothy was so violent with Burl that he would have to put his hands over Geraldine's ears
00:49:02
just to cover it up. And this is like a month before she was killed. He said that Timothy was
00:49:08
so incredibly violent and just a horrible person. He said, there is nobody in my family who believes
00:49:14
John Christie was the one who killed her. He had no motive. And he said, and I think he was so drunk
00:49:20
and so mad that he strangled Geraldine. There's a church right around the corner, you guys. If it
00:49:25
were Christie, I think he would have taken her and just left her at the church. I mean, there's no
00:49:30
motivation for Christie to kill this little girl. I understand Burl, but Burl's brother just said,
00:49:36
Timothy Evans was a terrible person. And we had been afraid that this was going to happen and it
00:49:41
happened, and it was not John Christie. So it's a big mystery. It's a mystery. I mean,
00:49:48
I don't know. I believe it too. I changed my mind. Well, because that's inside information, right? That's a person who has to sit there at the table
00:49:56
where Evan's family is like he could never. But then there's the witness from Beryl's side of the
00:50:02
family that's like, this guy was a monster and an alcoholic, where I believe it in a second.
00:50:07
I think that kind of witness is so credible because you're in the day-to-day. So if this guy was a true monster in the day-to-day,
00:50:16
then if one thing happens or one thing goes off, like we've seen that lots of times.
00:50:21
The family annihilators that are like, I'm depressed. This is always hard. Where's the solution?
00:50:27
Let's pack this in. Yeah. And it's also interesting to be like, well, there's not usually two killers in one place.
00:50:31
But it's like, okay, one person was an outlier and that was a serial killer. But a abusive, violent, alcoholic man abusing his family is not rare.
00:50:42
Post-war one. That's not, unfortunately, still not rare. What's also really weird is there was three killers,
00:50:49
because then there's the fog happening at the same time. Like having read your book, no joke though,
00:50:55
like that I thought your book was about the fog. So I was like wow this is fascinating I can believe it And then it goes into this It just like how did anybody deal with anything The fog was bad enough
00:51:10
So I'm sure reality was kind of defying reality for people at the time. So it's just like, it's three steps away.
00:51:20
It's into the fantastic. But so is the air killing you and not being able to see one foot in front of you when
00:51:27
you're walking down the street during the day. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's again, it's a systemic
00:51:32
issue that we have a problem with now, air pollution, dealing with. How do we even figure
00:51:37
this out now? I can't imagine. I may always say in these interviews that in the 50s,
00:51:42
the Minister of Health had just declared that cigarettes were connected to cancer and addiction,
00:51:51
and he's sitting there chain smoking through the whole news conference. So that is that 85% of the city smoked.
00:51:58
85%? I mean, they were like little kids smoking. For real. I mean, so I think the bottom line with this case is, of course, we're never going to know.
00:52:07
And that's maddening to me. I am not a big unsolved case fan. I really like a tidy conclusion.
00:52:13
No one ever wants to think that a mother or a father could kill their child. And that's what I think it made it really hard was he did seem like a good father.
00:52:23
but you just, you never know. And after reading her brother's book, I just thought, man, this is,
00:52:31
I mean, when I read he was violent, that was one thing. But when there's a 13-year-old kid
00:52:36
sitting there frightened for his sister, and then she ends up dead, it just seems,
00:52:41
and people just couldn't believe it. And I totally understand that. It's self-protection,
00:52:47
I think, in a way to think that this is not going to happen in our society. It must be the serial
00:52:53
killer. But as you said, this is not Bundy and Gacy living together in a condo. This is a serial
00:53:01
killer who is living in a building, just like with someone who is an abuser, just like probably
00:53:07
two buildings down, there was somebody who was abusing his wife. It kind of does point to that
00:53:11
because when you were just saying the thing about air pollution, it's a systemic issue. It's like,
00:53:15
as is domestic violence, like that kind of thing where if there are no services,
00:53:20
if there's no one to call, if there's nowhere to go, then you have to stay in that apartment and
00:53:26
keep on going to work, coming home, people drinking, people fighting, the pressure just
00:53:31
keeps building. And it happens a lot. And I think because families learn to keep secrets,
00:53:37
it's actually probably much more common than most people know or think. So that idea that yes, what was happening in this house, how could it be? And it's like,
00:53:47
if people got real about the prevalence of domestic violence and substance abuse and how
00:53:55
those things are tied together and how many people actually live with it, it wouldn't be as
00:53:59
surprising maybe Well I think then also this really does come down to somebody like John Christie who picked victims who were not represented well Now there were some of the women the part sex workers he was targeting had friends who were looking for them
00:54:16
But the police didn't give a shit. I mean, you know that. It's the same story. They did not care.
00:54:21
So they were dealing with gambling and, oh, man. And Timothy Evans was a gambler, too.
00:54:28
I mean, there was a lot of check marks for him that I think got suppressed a little bit at trial because they were really trying to make him come off a little bit like a dullard, a little bit like someone who was naive, who had been manipulated by Christie into thinking something.
00:54:48
And so it's an enduring mystery that will always be talked about, I'm sure. I mean, it was one of the worst things to happen, certainly in that area.
00:54:57
And 10 Rillington Place, of course, is no longer there. The whole street's no longer there.
00:55:01
They bulldozed the entire thing. It's called Ruston Close. Now, don't everybody go there, please.
00:55:06
I'm sure those people need their privacy. But they had to mow down that whole area.
00:55:12
There was a movie that was made in the 70s that was really well known about Rillington Place.
00:55:18
And after that movie, it was shot there. And after that movie, that was it. There was too much publicity.
00:55:24
So there's so much that comes up into this. racism from the Christie's and poverty in that area, post-war poverty, women who have lost loved
00:55:34
ones in the war and now have to do things that they didn't particularly want to do in order to
00:55:40
raise their children, who then become victims and people who are fighting for them to be found and
00:55:47
the police don't pay attention. And then the police are undermanned to begin with. And there
00:55:51
they are walking past thigh bones. It's just, it's a nightmare. So there's so much to me to
00:55:57
learn from this story. And it is such a sad story to see it in different forms repeated over and
00:56:03
over again. The only thing I can hope is that we just continue to pick up lessons here and there
00:56:08
from these kinds of stories. For sure. So if you haven't read Death in the Air, The True Story of a Serial Killer, The Great London Smog, and The Strangling of a City by
00:56:17
Kate Winkler Dawson, You Simply Must. And we should plug the new season of Tenfold More Wicked,
00:56:24
which is coming up very quickly. Do you want to talk about that for one second, Kate?
00:56:28
Sure. So this will be season six. I just can't even believe it. It's like I'm in a six-year-old.
00:56:33
You're so crazy. I just get gray hairs. Every season, I get more and more gray hairs.
00:56:39
So season six of Tenfold More Wicked is very, very close to my heart. They all are,
00:56:44
But this one especially, it's about a young woman who is found dead in Aransas Pass, Texas, which is next to a small town where I go to visit a lot with my family, Port Aransas.
00:56:56
This is a story about a town during Prohibition, a very small town, about a wealthy family.
00:57:02
And we trying to figure out if someone got away with murder and what happened to this young woman who her family believed was perfect And it was so much pressure for her that just something was bound to happen And then it did
00:57:16
Wow, amazing. And that comes out on the 25th of April. So make sure you rate, review, subscribe,
00:57:20
all of those things. Kate, thank you so much for doing this with us. You are an amazing storyteller.
00:57:26
Thanks for having me. That was just a delight to listen to you. Thank you. So I'll see you guys in like a couple weeks maybe.
00:57:32
Start all over again. Yes, exactly. Thank you, Kate. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here.
00:57:38
That was awesome. Bye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
00:57:52
Our senior producers are Hannah, Kyle, Crichton, and Natalie Wren. Our producer is Alejandra Keck.
00:57:57
This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Eepen. Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
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Goodbye. Bye. vacation planning should be. Goodbye. This episode is brought to you in part by Vital Farms.
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