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My favorite murder Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark.
00:01:48
Hey, that's Karen Kilgareth. And today we are so honored. It is our privilege to have our guest today.
00:01:55
She's a highly decorated 26-year veteran of the FBI. And since retiring as a special agent, she has been very busy.
00:02:02
She started her own podcast. She's authored fiction and nonfiction books and is a consultant for films and TV shows.
00:02:10
She is the only ever FBI agent to be awarded the Distinguished Service Award. Please welcome to the show, Jerry Williams.
00:02:19
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. It truly is our honor to have you here, especially the 50th anniversary of women in the FBI.
00:02:30
Yes. How about that? Thank you. I do have to clarify that I'm the first FBI agent to be given the Distinguished Service Award by the FBI Agents Association.
00:02:45
Wow. Which is like the FBI union of current active agents. Before that, it's always been, you know, a CIA director or general or Dr. Fauci.
00:02:56
And this last time, it was me. Oh my gosh. They never give it to one of their own.
00:03:01
And this time. That's amazing. Yeah. What did that feel like? It felt absolutely amazing and so validating because I've been doing this work for six years.
00:03:12
And it's just really validating to understand that current active agents are listening to the podcast, reading my books, reading my blogs, and really appreciate that I'm telling FBI stories.
00:03:27
And that's what the award is specifically for. It's for positively portraying the FBI in media, correct?
00:03:34
That is correct. For sharing FBI stories. So basically through your podcasts and through all the work you're doing, you're basically like, here's what it's really like to work here.
00:03:43
And here's why we need maybe more women to work here, more people of color to work here, more diversity.
00:03:50
And this is really what it's like. It's not the movies you've seen or the TV shows.
00:03:55
Exactly. That is exactly what I do. I say I'm on a mission to show you who the FBI is and what the FBI does.
00:04:03
And what is that to you? Why don't you tell us? Give us the mission statement. Yeah, Karen and I, you know, we're amateurs.
00:04:10
You know, we love Silence of the Lambs and we are very aware that that's not how it works.
00:04:14
However, how does it work? What is the good portrayal of it? You know, there are just so many violations that the FBI works, close to 300.
00:04:24
You know, we're doing public corruption and drug investigations and, of course, international and domestic terrorism.
00:04:32
and we're doing white collar crime, which is what I did, healthcare fraud, cyber crime.
00:04:38
I'm missing stuff, violent crime, kidnapping, human trafficking. There are just so many violations that we work on
00:04:46
that it is kind of hard to pin us down because a lot of the other federal agencies,
00:04:51
they have like a single purpose or, you know, like a focus. But we do everything, which means there's a lot to get wrong.
00:05:00
Oh, okay. It does seem like there's a lot of times when people will be like, why doesn't the FBI get involved?
00:05:06
And there's this like fervor around it. It does seem like there's very, very strict rules of when the FBI can or cannot get involved.
00:05:15
Exactly. You know, we have our jurisdiction. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that there is a hierarchy where it's the FBI and federal agencies,
00:05:25
and then you have your state and your local. And that is not true at all. You know, the state police or the local police are not subordinate to the FBI, not in the least.
00:05:36
They have their jurisdiction and we have ours. Sometimes they coincide and we work together and collaborate together.
00:05:44
Otherwise, you know, if there was a police crime scene and I walked up, you know, as an active agent and flashed my creds and said, let me in, they'd be like, whoa, who are you?
00:05:54
What do you want I have absolutely no right to bust into their crime scene And that one of the things that people get confused about especially in murder cases and missing persons cases
00:06:05
You know, they want the FBI to take over because obviously the local have no idea what they're doing.
00:06:11
But we can't take over. We have no right to take over. We can assist at the request and the invitation of a local police, but we can't take over.
00:06:22
in most cases in murder, we don't even have, as they would say, a dog in the fight. We have
00:06:28
absolutely no jurisdiction in most local murders. Wow. And is that a thing where the crime has to
00:06:35
take place like on federal land? I mean, I'm truly making all this up from what I've seen on TV,
00:06:41
but like across the state line, what are those? If it's easy to encapsulate, what does qualify?
00:06:47
Yeah. All right. So when we talk about murder, definitely if it occurs on federal land, it's very, very easy to understand. And federal land could be a national park. It could be international waters on a commercial ship. Those are all federal ways that we can get involved in a crime.
00:07:07
But most of the time when we get involved in a crime, there is another violation that we're actually there investigating.
00:07:16
If a black man is murdered and the FBI is involved, we're probably there because his civil rights were violated when he was murdered.
00:07:26
So we're there investigating a civil rights investigation. We're working with the locals on the murder.
00:07:31
And now we can't attach ourselves to this murder investigation. Let's say there was a bank robbery and the guards were murdered or people in the bank were murdered.
00:07:39
The FBI is now involved in that because a federally insured bank was robbed. And so now we can get involved in it.
00:07:47
But there's always another violation. There's a gang murder. We're involved because maybe that murder occurred because it was part of the criminal enterprise.
00:07:58
It was ordered by the gang Kingpin. And so now it's involving the investigation of a criminal enterprise.
00:08:05
So I always tell people when they ask me, you know, when or how or does the FBI investigate murder?
00:08:12
I say no, but yes. It's that easy. Yeah, it's that easy. There are ways that we do become involved.
00:08:21
Let's say a judge, very timely to talk about that today. A judge is threatened or murdered or their family member is murdered.
00:08:29
That's an FBI investigation because it was a federal judge or a federal prosecutor or maybe another federal agent.
00:08:36
That is part of the FBI's jurisdiction. So there are so many ways that we can get involved and there are so many ways that we are not allowed to be involved.
00:08:45
And so it really depends, but it's complicated, but not once you understand all of the reasonings behind it.
00:08:53
Yeah, there's clear rules, but it's not just because you think it should be this way.
00:08:59
It's like, because you think it's qualified for it. So in your 26 years in the FBI, Jerry, you mostly worked on white collar crime.
00:09:08
So will you tell us a little bit about what that kind of work is like? Yeah, I absolutely loved it.
00:09:13
And there are agents who would rather stick a needle in their eye than work these type of cases because they're complex, they're cerebral, and they take a long time.
00:09:25
But it is just fascinating to me what a con artist, what a scammer has to say to themselves to make it okay to steal other people's money.
00:09:35
And there's nothing more sinister and evil than that con man, that scammer, knowing that he's going in and taking an elderly couple's life savings.
00:09:49
I mean, wow. So I'm always fascinated by the type of cases. I was on an economic crime squad.
00:09:58
Wow. What are they like when you meet these people? Narcissistic is probably the best definition of, in general, of somebody who does this type of crime.
00:10:10
Because it's all about them. They don't really care about anyone else. It's almost a game.
00:10:16
You know, and the con people con each other, you know, trying to, you know, to get each other's money.
00:10:22
You know, it's a game. They always think they're the smartest people in the room, which I love because when I walked in and they thought, oh, her, you know, I kind of love being underestimated because at the end, I won.
00:10:37
Yeah, you get to kind of play it exactly how you want. So can you tell us, are you actually allowed to give us like the details of a case you worked on that maybe that you're really proud of the results?
00:10:48
Yeah, that's what my podcast is all about is agents talking about fully adjudicated cases.
00:10:54
You know, a case that never made it to court or a case that was never tried. You know, of course, we can't talk about it because that person, the subject has their own rights.
00:11:03
And so we can't do that. But there was one of my biggest cases, and I don't know if it's the closest one to my heart, but one of the biggest cases made it to CNBC's American Greed.
00:11:15
And for an agent who's working that type of violation, any type of corruption, you know, fraud or anything involving greed.
00:11:24
I mean, if your case makes it to that, then that's another validation, like a distinguished service award, you know, getting on that.
00:11:34
And so it was a $350 million Ponzi scheme case. But it really had a twist to it because the Ponzi scheme was a charity fraud.
00:11:45
And so the con artist, whose name was John Bennett, and he went to jail for 12 years.
00:11:50
And so I don't have to worry about saying allegedly. Because you proved it Yeah Absolutely We had the evidence He was convincing people that he had an anonymous donor that would match any type of donation that you wanted to make to your favorite charity
00:12:08
And he was going after some of the biggest philanthropists in the country. And so we're not talking about, you know, a $100 donation.
00:12:17
We're talking about a $500,000 or $1 million donation. And that's how it got up to $350 million.
00:12:25
And he convinced the people that if you give me your $500,000 and you let me hold it for six months so that I can prove that the organization that you are donating this to doesn't need it for capital, that it's going to be a special donation for special funding, then I will have my anonymous donor match it and your actual gift will be a million dollars.
00:12:49
And he was able to convince some of the smartest, most astute people in the country, they thought they were, to do this.
00:13:01
And I was in Philadelphia where I worked for 24 to 26 years I was in the FBI. I was out of Philadelphia.
00:13:08
And it was just an unbelievable front page Philadelphia Inquirer story for many, many months when it was learned that it was all a fraud.
00:13:18
There was no anonymous donor. And I loved how it ended because this man was so narcissistic that he could not even admit that he had perpetrated a fraud.
00:13:31
And so he told everybody that he had been delusional and had hallucinated that there were anonymous donors.
00:13:39
Oh, no. Was he trying to do an insanity defense? He did not use an insanity defense.
00:13:45
He tried to, but that wasn't going to work. So basically he pled no contest where basically you say, I know you're going to have enough evidence to prove that I'm wrong.
00:13:56
I'm not admitting that I'm wrong, but I'll go ahead and plead guilty. Again, because he could not accept responsibility.
00:14:04
He could not be accountable for what he had done. But he got 12 years and for a white collar crime case, 12 years is pretty good.
00:14:12
Oh my gosh. How long does it take from when you first start investigating a crime of this magnitude to when you go to trial? Like, it seems like a huge years-long investigation.
00:14:23
Yeah, I would say on the average, at least two years for these type of investigations, which is one of the reasons that it's so good that the FBI handles these type of violations because a police department, in most cases, doesn't have the manpower or the finances to dedicate people to work that type of a case for, you know, two to three or four years, however long it takes.
00:14:48
Yeah. So I really enjoyed these type of investigations. They also included advance fee schemes where I say, I'm going to get you some money.
00:14:58
You just need to pay me in advance for me to get you a loan broker. I also did embezzlements where somebody working at a corporation or at a bank was stealing money and siphoning off money.
00:15:10
And I also did telemarketing, business-to-business telemarketing fraud. So it might not be necessarily somebody going directly to an individual.
00:15:18
and doing a fraud, but there are also frauds perpetrated and committed against full corporations.
00:15:24
And that's the type of thing I work to. Wow. I loved it. Fascinating. It is fascinating.
00:15:31
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and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash MFM. Goodbye. These days, there are these series
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on whatever streaming channels. And like the first one I really loved was the one about the people
00:18:37
who were selling leggings and they didn't realize they were in like the multi-level marketing scheme.
00:18:42
And it feels, it doesn't feel like crime at first. It doesn't feel bad at first.
00:18:46
It's like you watch these women explaining how into it they were. And like, it's so human.
00:18:52
And I think we're all greedy. Everybody has that in us. But what is the extenuating circumstance where you went from greedy to you're just going to rob these people and like buy another jet? It's so extreme.
00:19:07
Yeah, and that's what I said. I'm just fascinated by that. You know, because I think for a period of time, you may be able to fool yourself and say, and I will admit that most Ponzi schemes, most of these big frauds start off as a failing business.
00:19:25
that they're doing things and saying things and making lies and falsehoods because they're desperate to keep their business afloat.
00:19:35
But then there's a point where you know everything that's coming out of your mouth is a big, fat lie.
00:19:41
And now it's really just a game. Now they love the mansions and the travel and the yachts
00:19:49
and the whole Madoff mentality of, look at all I've got. And I know it's going to crash because there's absolutely no Ponzi scheme in the world that doesn't end up crashing at some point.
00:20:01
There's nobody in the world that is going to keep that afloat. But in the meantime, live in large.
00:20:07
Yeah. Yeah, they're not, even if they're trying to fix their business, they're not living in a, you know, a shed.
00:20:12
No. Starving. They're doing fine. No. With the leggings one, I kept going, oh, wait, these are the people that are responsible.
00:20:19
Like they were in their own documentary because it seemed like they didn't get they were the bad guys in this documentary.
00:20:26
Yeah. They still haven't gotten to the part where once the business started failing and you were still getting people to come in and you were still selling the dream, it was a fraud at that point.
00:20:38
Yes. They never seemed to get that. What is something that like the consumers like us, what's like a big red flag that you'd see that you couldn't believe the smart people in the room who got scammed that they missed?
00:20:50
Not doing your own research, relying on what your friend has done and been successful at, not doing your own due diligence because for these multi-level marketing and for Ponzi schemes and a lot of frauds, they continue and they grow by word of mouth.
00:21:11
Right. The bad guy doesn't have to get out there at a point and say, you know, this is a great investment. This is a great opportunity because the people who come in early are making money and they go out and spread the word. Yes. And their friends just look at them and say, oh, look, you know, look what they have. Look what they got. I'm going to jump on it, too. And nobody is doing their checking and research and validation and due diligence. They're just jumping on because they want to make the money, too.
00:21:41
And at that point where everything has gone bad, the bad guy gets away with it because nobody's doing any research.
00:21:48
And sometimes it's a simple matter. You know, if you're investing in golf courses all around the country, you know, I had a friend of mine whose father lost hundreds of thousands of dollars because he thought he was building golf courses.
00:22:01
Well, why don't you get on a plane and go visit one of those? Site visit immediately.
00:22:08
Yeah. Go see your golf course. Go see what your money, you know, it's there. So go visit it.
00:22:14
Go see it. Yeah. And they're not doing that. They're depending on what they've been told by people they respect and admire who are falling for the scam too.
00:22:26
And is there a part of it too where I always think of the Madoff thing where there were so many people who it was like, you have money, I have money.
00:22:33
This is what we do with our money. So it's a little bit of insider information where checking on it would be almost like
00:22:42
gauche or something like, this is what all the money people are doing. So we are going to do it too.
00:22:46
And it's almost like they get punished for that. That's how they get taken advantage of.
00:22:51
Right. And that's exactly what it is. It becomes a status to be involved in some of these scams.
00:22:59
And unfortunately, you know, I'm not sitting in a big mansion someplace because I am the
00:23:04
most skeptical person in the world. And if you bring me an opportunity, I'm going to ask you,
00:23:09
you know, 10, 20, 30 questions. And by the time, you know, it's over, either I've decided it's a
00:23:16
scam or you decided you don't want me to invest anyway. I love that. They're like, no, Sherlock
00:23:23
Holmes isn't going to buy into our scam. Just stop talking. Move on. Yes. Well, so you also worked
00:23:29
or you would accompany drug and violent crime arrests. That's a big right turn. How did that come about?
00:23:36
Not necessarily, because there are so few women and Black women that if you are in a situation where, say,
00:23:46
an undercover agent is playing the role of a drug dealer and he needs to have a girlfriend or a wife,
00:23:54
then I get to go along and pretend that... Wow. So you've been undercover. Like you've done...
00:24:00
Things like that? Very short term undercover roles. So I don't want anybody to think that, no, I've never done anything long term.
00:24:07
But if, let's say, for instance, there were two black agents that were playing drug dealers
00:24:13
and they had been invited to go to a boxing match, and I don't even know who it is, in DC.
00:24:20
So, you know, we flew down so I can go to the boxing match with them. And I got to where the, you know, the FBI confiscated furs and, you know, sit there.
00:24:31
And you know what? And I hate boxing. I just, yeah. But I was kind of probably watching like, you know, my fingers and hands over my eyes.
00:24:38
But, you know, I went along because we knew otherwise they were going to try to set these guys up with women.
00:24:44
And so, you know, I went along so that the poor undercover agent would not have to have sex with a strange woman.
00:24:52
because that probably would not look very good when he needed to testify in court
00:24:58
about this investigation later. So playing that part, do you have any history of that?
00:25:03
Like, did you do theater in high school or are you just naturally able to kind of slide into that
00:25:07
just because that's what the job is? Yeah, I think so. You know what is expected of you.
00:25:12
And unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know how to look at this, but in that type of a role,
00:25:18
all I needed to do is look pretty. Yeah. They're not asking you 10 questions about your career.
00:25:25
I had the cleavage showing and the short skirt on. But yeah, so those kind of little roles.
00:25:32
You know, once one of the other undercover agents was making a drug buy at a pizza parlor,
00:25:37
it was an organized crime, and I accompanied him. But then once we got there, the bad guys wanted him to leave his, you know, leave the chick in the car.
00:25:46
But I was there and I was watching from the car window and ready to respond if I needed to.
00:25:53
But yeah, they're very small roles, but I don't want to minimize them because even those small roles that you may be asked to do are an important part of the scenario.
00:26:05
And so I did that. But there were many women, many women and female agents in the FBI who have undertaken major undercover roles.
00:26:15
And so I want to make sure people understand that that was my choice. I was not involved directly in the undercover program.
00:26:21
I did not go to undercover school. But there are many women who did and had just phenomenal undercover roles during their career.
00:26:29
Well, because it's like you said before, people see a woman and then just totally immediately underestimate you, which is a total advantage.
00:26:37
Right. For getting information and being in that moment with them. Right, because I'm still armed and, you know, was there for security and safety reason for the undercover agent.
00:26:47
And I also have ears. Yeah. You know, so I'm listening and I'm cooperating, you know, what's happening and what's going down if that testimony is needed later too.
00:26:57
Yeah. Wow. What a career. Yeah. You were in law enforcement before. What made you want to get into the FBI?
00:27:02
I was going to double my salary. Yeah. I got to be honest. I was a juvenile probation officer and all of my kids had been sent away to reform schools and behavioral group homes.
00:27:20
And I traveled all over the state of Virginia to visit them and help them transition back.
00:27:26
I was the person involved in making sure that the county that they were from, that they saw me and that I could help them transition back into the community.
00:27:36
I also connected them with their parents because a lot of times the parents didn't have the means and the ways to visit them because they may be across the whole other side of the state of Virginia.
00:27:46
And so that's what I did. And I did that for three years. And it was an unbelievable job.
00:27:51
But it was so difficult. Emotionally draining. Almost all of the girls that I had on my caseload had been involved in sex work.
00:28:01
And here there are 15, 16, 17. Their quote-unquote boyfriends had them involved in prostitution.
00:28:10
Really, they were being sexually abused. We know that. I don't think we used that term back then.
00:28:15
And that's why they ended up in, you know, a group home or a reform school, because they were bad.
00:28:20
And then a lot of the boys were involved in, you know, violent crime and breaking into homes and things like that.
00:28:27
But they were kids. and you got to know them as kids and trying to get them to make that turn
00:28:34
into a better life because not only could you see where they were headed, but in many instances,
00:28:41
I knew where they were headed because I had met their parents. I had met their brother and sisters
00:28:47
and a lot of those family members had been on the caseloads of my older coworkers
00:28:53
at some time or another. Yeah. And so I wasn't necessarily looking for another job. But when I saw that the FBI, this is back in 1982, 40 years ago. But when I saw that the FBI was looking for women and minorities, I just picked up the phone and made the call to the recruiter. And thank goodness, Randy Waldrop, he recruited me.
00:29:19
You know, once he heard about my background and, you know, the things that I was doing and my educational level, and he could see that I looked like the type of candidate that the FBI wanted, he really would not let me off that phone until I had promised him that I was sending an application.
00:29:36
And then he followed up. It almost seems like, not fate, but just this perfect little storm for you of exactly how it was supposed to go.
00:29:38
Wow. Well also such you know the first job you did and trying to help those kids it really is a true service because there so few services anymore for kids that are in jeopardy And it so so unfair where they coming out of places where everything counts against them And it just like oh now we just going to send you to reform school as opposed to anybody actually being there an adult that cares about them and
00:30:10
is helping them and that kind of guidance. So yeah, you had an impact, you did really important
00:30:16
work. And then it's like, now you can take all that and kind of take a little bit of a left turn
00:30:21
because that's really hard work and that is service that like three years is like 10 years in any other job.
00:30:27
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And anybody who is listening, who is doing that type of work, we definitely applaud you because it's heartbreaking.
00:30:38
I mean, when you're in law enforcement and you just look at the people that you're working to get into jail,
00:30:45
you know, it can be a hard line. But when those people are children, especially when you have children of your own, or at that time I was young, but hoping to have children of your own, it's heartbreaking to see that for them, there really is no hope.
00:31:03
And part of your job is to try to give them hope. Right. Yeah. So should we talk really quick about how did you get into podcasting?
00:31:12
Yeah. I mean, because you're technically retired, but you're one of the busiest people that I've ever heard of being retired.
00:31:18
You have like four more careers now that you're retired. Absolutely. And I hear that from my husband every day.
00:31:24
It's like, aren't you retired? And the fact is, no, I'm really not. I've been doing this for six years.
00:31:30
So after I retired from the FBI, I was the director of media relations for the Philadelphia Transportation System called SEPTA.
00:31:38
And that's the buses and the trains and the trolleys and the subways. And I did that for seven years.
00:31:44
And I'm telling you, that was hard work because the transportation system runs for 24-7.
00:31:49
And if there was a person that was hit by a bus or somebody who committed suicide by train
00:31:56
or just a physical altercation on one of the vehicles, I was called in the middle of the night.
00:32:01
Oh, my goodness. And I had also done that in the FBI. My last five years, I was the spokesperson for the Philadelphia Division.
00:32:08
So I was used to being out front in the media, talking to reporters and entertainment about positive perception of the FBI and of SEPTA when I did it.
00:32:22
And so when I retired, I knew I wanted to write books. I've always been a big crime fiction reader, and I just always thought that I can do this.
00:32:31
I can write books. And the whole podcasting thing was secondary. It was a way of me building a platform, of me finding potential readers.
00:32:41
And I have written four books, but the whole podcast thing kind of took over. And I spend most of my time.
00:32:47
We get it. We get it. You're my people. You understand. The whole podcasting thing just took over.
00:32:54
And I spend way more of my time podcasting than I do writing. I haven't written a book since 2020.
00:33:03
So hopefully something will happen soon. I am working on another crime novel. I mean, four books, Jerry, is plenty.
00:33:11
You don't have to. I mean, please give the rest of us a chance. And then like, what is it?
00:33:17
Like 260 episodes of your podcast? Yeah, I just posted 262 and yeah. Yeah, it's great.
00:33:24
Wow. Let's talk about the whole angle of the women in the FBI. And it's the 50th anniversary, which is, so it was very young.
00:33:34
It's a very new thing, it seems like. Well, the funny thing is that I am going around promoting the 50th anniversary of female FBI agents.
00:33:45
But the reality is that it's actually the 100th anniversary. But the Bureau doesn't really recognize that they were women agents back in 1922.
00:33:59
One was hired in 1922. Another female FBI agent was hired in 1923. But when Hoover became the acting director in 1924, he got rid of them.
00:34:12
Yes, he said he was doing a reduction in the force and trying to professionalize it
00:34:18
and that there really wasn't any work for women agents. So the only two women that were in the FBI, he got rid of them.
00:34:25
Then, for some reason, I've done a lot of research on this, and I find it fascinating.
00:34:29
But for some reason, one of the female employees had the backing of the Pennsylvania governor and some other important people, and they campaigned for him to make her an agent.
00:34:43
So Lenore Houston is the only woman ever hired by FBI director J. Edgar Hoover. Wow.
00:34:52
But four years later, she ended up, I'm serious, you're going to think I'm making this up, but she ended up in a mental hospital threatening to kill him if she ever got out.
00:35:04
What? I'm not making it up. I would love to hear what happened in those four years, but I can only imagine, you know, because I've heard some stories of the women in the early years, in the 70s, I can only imagine the gaslighting and the head games that went on that put her in that situation.
00:35:25
But yeah, it's fascinating. That's your next book. Yeah. Your next nonfiction. Yeah, people keep telling me that, but, you know, and I've gathered some information, but I don't know if it's enough for a book.
00:35:36
But then it was like 44, 46 years later until another woman, you know, became an FBI agent.
00:35:44
And coincidentally, it was just a few months after Hoover died. Wow. Yes. Did he shadow ban an entire half of the population to just be out of the FBI Absolutely Wow And it very similar to what happened to minority agents Same thing There were minority agents in the early 1920s
00:36:07
They were investigating Marcus Garvey and some other, what they believed were radical groups back then.
00:36:14
But after that, they all kind of quit and left. And there were no more Black FBI agents hired until 1962.
00:36:23
And so we're celebrating the 50th anniversary of the first female agents who are allowed to attend the FBI Academy.
00:36:33
But we're also celebrating the 60th anniversary of the first black agents who are allowed to attend the Academy.
00:36:41
And between that point, there were no black agents or women agents hired as special agents.
00:36:48
It seems fake. It's like that doesn't make sense. Yeah, I know what you're saying.
00:36:53
The job that it seems like you're trying to get done, where it's like for investigation, for representation, for the undercover kind of work that you're talking about.
00:37:02
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00:39:28
Goodbye. You got to wonder what the world would be like, you know, and this is the same thing for all law enforcement being completely sexist and segregated.
00:39:39
what kind of crimes would have been solved and what kind of more peaceful existence would people have had if the people policing and in charge of these investigations had had an understanding that was outside of the white male gaze?
00:39:54
Well, we talk about that in the past, but I wonder today what the women gymnastic Olympians, how they would have been respected and valued if there had been a woman agent involved in their case.
00:40:14
I can tell you there is no doubt in my mind that what happened, that it would not have happened if there was a woman involved in that initial investigation.
00:40:23
You know, I get angry sometimes when I see things that are written that are negative about the FBI when they're not true.
00:40:31
But when it is a knock on something that's done that is valid, then I have to accept it and still, like any other woman, get angry about that too.
00:40:42
But that Larry Nassar thing, I just can't imagine that a female FBI agent would not have learned that information and then run with it with her hair on fire running with it.
00:40:55
That whole thing is just, you know, I usually don't comment on current events, but that whole thing was weird because it was at the management level.
00:41:04
And those supervisors and assistant special agent in charge would never have normally been involved in the one-on-one interviewing of victims like that.
00:41:16
So I don't even understand how that happened, that it was not assigned to an agent at the case level, on the squad level, to do those interviews.
00:41:26
It's just weird. That's so uncomfortable. And also when we say, like, if there was just one woman on that case where it's like, how about we look at what's effective for victims and for crime solving?
00:41:38
And how about an entire department of only women that go in there and they don't listen to the people who are giving the usual excuses?
00:41:47
Cut out the people that have been making these insane excuses for years and get in there.
00:41:52
And as women multitaskers bullshit detectors all the things that women bring to the table and actually have the people that handle shit It like get some mom energy up in there where it like no no no this is
00:42:05
over now. Everybody go sit down. I'm taking care of it. That's what we need in these situations.
00:42:12
And someone who doesn't look at women and go, oh, well, she's being dramatic. Any of that shit.
00:42:18
Yeah, it is so sad and frustrating. But in that one swift headline, you know, now it looks like the FBI doesn't care about crimes against children, crimes against, you know, young women.
00:42:32
And that's just the furthest from the truth. And, you know, I just, keep me away from those two supervisors.
00:42:40
For real, for real. Yeah, horrible. Have you ever imagined if in the Bureau, if there was a really even hiring situation where they had a lot of diversity and they had a lot of like equality in terms of women and men being hired?
00:42:57
I don't know. Have you ever just imagined like what the difference could be in that kind of a well-represented FBI?
00:43:06
I imagine that in a well-represented law enforcement community, period. I was a cop. I was in law enforcement. And so, of course, I support police, but I only support them if they're doing their job, if they're doing the right thing. And when you have communities that don't feel that they're being served, something is wrong.
00:43:31
And so fighting the fact that people are saying these things about policing, being defensive about the fact that people are saying these things about law enforcement doesn't make any sense.
00:43:44
What we should be doing is listening and trying to make sure that in law enforcement, we're doing things where the community truly believes that we are there for them as much as we are there for anybody else.
00:43:58
there is a problem and we need to fix it. And, you know, I never answered the question you were asking
00:44:06
how I got into the podcasting. And so I initially did it just to get potential readers
00:44:13
to build a platform. But I started in January of 2016. And in the fall of 2016, that's when the FBI got pulled into this political mess, you know.
00:44:26
And that's when it became a mission. That's when it was more than me just talking to other retired FBI agents.
00:44:36
I really was listening to what was being said about the FBI, what some people are saying about the FBI and being politicized and being on one side of politics and not the other.
00:44:51
So back in the fall of 2016, I started hearing this, and that's when it became this mission for me to really let the stories,
00:45:00
let the case reviews speak for the FBI. You know, I'm not going to get into a political.
00:45:07
I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't believe. I'm just going to let them hear about an investigation from the investigative side
00:45:15
about the sacrifices, about the work and the resources and the manpower and the hours that are put in to make people safe
00:45:24
and just let people listen and make their own choices about who the FBI is and what the FBI does.
00:45:31
And that is something that you're right. You know, that's what we can do as podcasters
00:45:40
is to put the information out there and let people see, you know, crime from another side
00:45:48
other than just the news. You know, let them see the real people behind the headlines.
00:45:57
Yeah. Is there an episode or guest or story that is a great example of what you're trying to share?
00:46:04
Yeah. I will say that I picked this one because it is a great story. And I think it ties in so closely with your show and, you know, the whole title, you know, My Favorite Murder.
00:46:15
But she's also one of my closest friends. And I did an episode, it's episode 69, and it's with Jenna Davis.
00:46:23
But she was the head of the Safe Street Task Force in Maryland, and they investigated a triple murder.
00:46:31
Murder, you said? The FBI doesn't investigate murder, but these three women were murdered in one of the federal parks in the Maryland, D.C. area.
00:46:40
and the Safe Street Task Force worked to figure out how these three women ended up shot execution style
00:46:49
in the state park. And it's a fascinating case review to watch how the Jenna Davis, my friend,
00:46:58
and the people on the task force that she hit it methodically tracked down all the information they could
00:47:05
and brought justice to it for these three young women who were murdered because they dissed, you know,
00:47:12
the one guy that wanted them to go to have sex with them. And they said, you know, I'm not interested.
00:47:19
And give us a ride home. And on their way, decided, you know what? You know, I'm going to show these.
00:47:25
I don't know if you curse on your show. Oh, yeah, we. I'm going to show these bitches, you know, who's boss.
00:47:33
And they shot them just because they turned them down and didn't want to have sex with them.
00:47:39
That's a great example of why it's so important to have representation, as you were saying,
00:47:44
in the FBI of women. We just bring something so different to the table. Also, I think in that we usually hear one angle,
00:47:52
and I think this is starting to change a little bit, especially from the specials that I've seen lately,
00:47:56
but having the inside perspective of what it was like You get this case, it's dropped on your desk. And from that day, how do you actually get to
00:48:04
the end result where this is solved and you actually are bringing people to justice?
00:48:10
I think it's very fascinating. And it's really important to know the manpower and the real work
00:48:17
that goes into that. And then these things are getting done. So I mean, I've listened to a couple
00:48:21
episodes of your podcast, Jenny. I think it's really good. It's so official. You guys are so
00:48:27
qualified and you've been there. Wait, are all the people you talk to also retired FBI agents or
00:48:32
some of them active? Everybody's retired. Everybody's retired. And that way they can
00:48:37
say whatever they damn well please. I think when you see, you know, some agents on TV,
00:48:47
you know, or in different shows and they're still active, they're not going to tell you
00:48:52
about something that they did or some trouble or a mistake they made. They're just not going to do
00:48:59
it because the bosses are listening. And so these are the real stories. And I have the, you know,
00:49:04
male agents who are crying, maybe talking about a female victim, you know, how they didn't want to
00:49:12
have to go back to the parents to say that they had found her body. And they're crying. They would
00:49:16
Never do that if it was an FBI-sanctioned interview and you had the press person listening in.
00:49:24
Because I have done a couple of active agent interviews, and they're never as good because people don't feel comfortable.
00:49:30
You know, they're real stories. They talk about they were so into this case that they totally ignored their wife and ended up getting a divorce.
00:49:37
They admit that, you know. So, you know, I know I'm supposed to be impartial and humble, but I love, I absolutely love my podcast and I love every single interview that I do.
00:49:50
I get excited about it. I have met some of the most dedicated FBI agents that I would never have had a chance to meet during my 26 career We had 56 57 offices here in the country and then we have all the offices that we have overseas I just wouldn have met all these people And to meet some of them has just been
00:50:11
an honor and just so rewarding. Well, that's how we feel about meeting you, Jerry. This has been
00:50:17
an amazing conversation. Honestly, we really appreciate your expertise and taking the time.
00:50:24
And you guys, if you want to listen to Jerry's podcast, it's called FBI Retired Case File Review
00:50:30
with Jerry Williams. There's 200 and how many episodes? 262. 262 and counting. Also, if you
00:50:40
want to read her books, there's a list of them, both fiction and nonfiction on her website,
00:50:45
which is jerrywilliams.com. And that's Jerry with an I. And we just can't thank you enough
00:50:51
for being here today, Jerry. Thank you so much. Thank you. Can I leave on a high note? Please.
00:50:56
The FBI has asked that their recruiting staff now have a goal of 40% women. Oh, yes.
00:51:07
So for all of the special agents who will be hired from now into the future, they have been given a goal of 40%.
00:51:15
And the last few classes that were at the FBI Academy, 40% women. Nice. Amazing.
00:51:24
Yes. They only make up about 21% now. Now, when it comes to black women, we still only make up 1%.
00:51:31
So I'm on my own personal goal to increase that. Yeah, but it sounds like it could definitely happen if those numbers are going up like that.
00:51:40
It must be really satisfying to see that from your perspective. It's satisfying when it comes to hiring women.
00:51:46
When it comes to hiring minorities, it's always been low. The FBI has tried a lot of things to try to increase the number of minorities.
00:51:58
Right now, I think it's about 17%, 18%, which is better than it has been. But I think in order to get those numbers up it going to be a one recruitment effort You not going to be able to throw an ad in the paper or on YouTube saying come with us because of the historical issues that have been in the different minority communities
00:52:22
when it comes to law enforcement. You've got to do what Randy Waldrop did for me 40 years ago, and that's to really go out
00:52:30
and recruit and mentor a diverse community and minorities if you really, really want to
00:52:37
have a diverse agency. Yeah. Well, awesome. Thank you so much. Amazing. Thank you so much,
00:52:44
Sherry. It's been such a pleasure. You are such a badass, if I can say. Oh, I love that. I should
00:52:50
get that tattooed. Thank you. I had to tell you when I got the, you know, here's the time for me
00:52:56
to fangirl. But when I got the email inviting me to be on this show, I was like, what?
00:53:02
But I really do want people to learn more about the FBI. And having this opportunity to be introduced to your audience is just amazing.
00:53:14
And I can't thank you enough for the opportunity to reach them. It's our pleasure, truly.
00:53:22
I mean, it's very validating to, you know, to listen to you talk and the work that you've done.
00:53:27
And, you know, you're the real deal. We're fangirls and we're kind of armchair quarterbacks of like crime.
00:53:34
But it's, you know, we really get excited and so honored when people have dedicated their lives to actually doing something.
00:53:43
And, you know, the idea that like taking down Ponzi schemes, it's like, that's the most satisfying.
00:53:49
Like, yes, those people that are scamming grandmas and making them like buy iTunes cards and stuff.
00:53:55
It's like there's people out there fighting that for the average person. It's a really lovely thing.
00:54:01
So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
00:54:08
This has been an Exactly Right production Our senior producers are Hannah Kyle Crichton and Natalie Wren Our producer is Alejandra Keck This episode was engineered and mixed by Andrew Eapin Email your hometowns and fucking hurrays to myfavoritemurder at gmail
00:54:28
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and on Twitter at My Fave Murder.
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