00:00:00
This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.
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Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. When a charming neurosurgeon rode into Frontier Town
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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room
00:00:45
and became sought after by patients. He promised to heal them. Instead, he left a trail of broken bodies.
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This is a story of greed, betrayal, and a fight for justice. Listen to Dr. Death the Cowboy wherever you get your podcasts
00:00:58
or binge the entire series right now only with Audible. Goodbye. The best parts of summer aren't just places,
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they're feelings. It's the scent of fresh ocean air, sun-warmed skin, and long evenings outside.
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Pura's new summer collection is designed to capture those fleeting moments and make them last.
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Restore your sense of place with clean premium fragrances you control from your phone.
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Bring the feeling of summer home. Discover the collection at Pura.com. Goodbye. Bye.
00:01:26
Warning, the following episode deals with mature and disturbing themes, including drug use,
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backyard disasters, and bad parenting. But listener discretion is not advised, because we dubbed it all out.
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Now you can listen to this podcast in front of children, in the car with your mother-in-law,
00:01:41
or at a public pool. Please note, we are not responsible for the quality or content of the made-for-TV movies
00:01:47
mentioned in this episode. Enjoy my flip-flop. My favorite murder. Duh. Hello. Hello.
00:02:06
Welcome. Welcome to the whole time. My favorite murder. The podcast. In tandem. In tandem.
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Splat. Exactly. At the same time. Exactly. On exactly at the same time media. That's right.
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That's Karen Kilgara. that's georgia hartstark hi how are you coming at you from our individual homes
00:02:31
as per we're not protesting anything we're staying home you know why because it's just normal it's
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what you're supposed to do and you don't want to get a virus and give it to other people
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the highly deadly virus no one knows how it works stay home yeah and when you wear a mask when you
00:02:53
scream into the law enforcement faces. It turns out it doesn't help at all. It hinders, some would
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say. Strong start. We've done it again. There we go. I mean, let's just make this a flaming
00:03:05
political podcast at this point. How do we talk about anything else? Oh, man. Well, it's kind of
00:03:13
being shoved down our throats all the time. That's why we do this podcast so you can escape. This is
00:03:18
the escape hatch from that reality into the one we've decided to create. And you should absolutely be wary of the fact that the escape hatch of reality to make you
00:03:29
feel better is a murder podcast. Yes, please. No, please read the post-it note that we stuck on the escape hatch before we went through
00:03:38
it first. And it says, beware all ye who enter here. It's two women talking. It's a murder podcast.
00:03:48
What's a podcast? It's one big, God forbid. So get ready. It's one big, God forbid. That's the best. How are you doing with your stability and house and
00:04:01
living in it? Well, I mean, that all that's fine. I did. I was I think yesterday was a breaking
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point for a lot of people. I was getting lots of texts like, hey, I'm freaking out. So tonight,
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actually technically although in our reality it's two nights away it's a full moon and i think that
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has an effect on people especially when you are indoors and you need to be indoors yeah so just
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i don't know i would say keep conscious of details like that that might be affecting you um what does
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it do it turns you into a werewolf you know like every um every time there's a full moon like uh
00:04:41
crime in normal times crime spikes like crazy people get a little nutso it's like kind of like
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mercury in retrograde i think so only the the moon is much has much more of a true direct scientific
00:04:53
you know we're made of water the moon affects the tides and our periods yeah and all those things so
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push pull there's all that it's all happening extra pushed extra pulled this week stay aware
00:05:07
so yeah I think there was a little bit of that kind of I had a couple you know we had a couple
00:05:13
things we had to get done on the phone that felt like way bigger deals than they normally I almost
00:05:19
cried in a business meeting which was so did you did you notice last week when I almost started
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crying oh I was so embarrassed I was just like get it together no yeah okay was that when it was
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just the four of us though yeah yeah our coven yeah and i did i thought okay um i did notice it
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but i thought it was something else so that i was just kind of like that i was getting my period
00:05:43
i know i remember i said are you okay oh yeah yeah and you were like yeah yeah and then i was like oh that's i hope she didn't think that was me
00:05:54
being mean oh no i was really doing it but that the weird part and it is this part is driving me crazy It very difficult You and I have almost I I feel sometimes a like a psychic connection where I don have to say a lot of stuff to you
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Yes. I really don't feel the need to because I know that you're already there. I wish you wouldn't. I mean, I do. I know I do a lot. But and so it's it's more difficult and it's very frustrating to me.
00:06:25
to have to podcast with you when there's like, say a delay or a thing. I don't get that the high of the connection.
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No. I mean, it's almost like we need to start recording our phone calls because those are so funny
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and fun and like very, but then, yeah, then it would ruin that and it wouldn't make any
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sense anymore. I know. I know. It's just it's just an odd like that part of the adjustment.
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Those are the things I'm missing and feeling is like when people go like a human connection.
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But there really is that thing where it makes me feel like I am when I feel I am connected to other people.
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Yeah, it's very important. It turns out. Yeah, it is. I almost cried the other night thinking of like hugging the first time I'm going to hug someone besides Vince or a cat.
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It's going to be so emotional. I feel like, you know, it's just going to feel like I feel like for the first it's going to be like when World War Two ended for the first friendly couple of weeks.
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everyone's just going to be, you know, basking in these experiences that they haven't been able to do in three years.
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Hopefully, I think we would like to formally apologize for joking that the pandemic would last for three years.
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We had no idea we could see the future. I mean, yeah, really. When it actually ends up because people won't stop going out anyway.
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Right. And it ends up lasting for half a decade. Arresting black people and giving white people masks.
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Tickets. You know. Exactly. The total disparity of justice in this country. Anyway.
00:07:51
Anywho. Anyhow. We promised you this was an escape and we're escaping you right to the front page of every newspaper that you've had to read this whole time.
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That's right. The perfect escape. I will say this. Here is how I am escaping. And I don't know why I found it so soothing.
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Scandinavian police procedurals much like their furniture are so beautiful and there's one
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there's a couple I've been watching that I really binged one is called The Truth Will Out
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and it's really well done really well made I think that one is on Netflix can't remember
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everything is either on Netflix or Amazon that one is great and the characters are amazing so it turns into like
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it's a cold case team that's kind of ragtag. Yeah. Love a ragtag group of anything. And but
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so well written, like so realistically, wonderfully well written. And then this one I just started is
00:08:49
called Trapped and it's Icelandic. And the main guy is this huge. I mean, like, let's be honest,
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he's a bear. He's like a bear. He's huge and hairy and has a big beard and he's really gruff.
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And he is small town Iceland trying to solve these murders. And you're like, maybe I need to move to this town.
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For real. I'm going there the second quarantine is lifted. And we're like, it's like, come on.
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It's really cool. And they also, it's the thing where in the middle of a full on foreign procedural, everyone starts speaking English.
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When they have to talk to other people, they'll just be speaking English with no accent.
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Where you're just like, man, that's cool. You're like, I'm sorry, but thank you.
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Yes, I really appreciate it. Could never do it. I mean, I try to start taking ice Icelandic language lessons, but I would need the full five years.
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That's right. Oh, God. Maybe by the time I get there, I'm saying. Yeah. When this quarantine is lit.
00:09:51
And then she gets to move there. What else do you want to? I keep seeing a title of a show that I drunkenly wrote down to recommend and laughing out loud.
00:10:04
It's like I have Atlanta's Missing and Murdered on HBO and the Green River. And then just in the middle of it is a show called Flipping 101 on HGTV.
00:10:15
That I am so obsessed with. It's so good. And it's just people redoing houses? It's this guy.
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he got they're losing their snickers it's this guy tarik he had a he got a divorce from his
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wife who they had a flipping show and so now he kind of gets this like short end of the stick show
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of having to deal with people who have never flipped houses before well she's going off to
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like marry some dude in orange county and live in this beautiful house and i just feel for this guy
00:10:43
so much wait tarik is that this is that written into the show or it's just like do you or you just
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know if you follow HGTV like we do then you know okay like you know who and he just he seems so
00:10:58
I feel so bad for him yeah well you don't want to be in a famous couple and then break up no
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and then let's get the short end oh well I mean how do you yeah I guess you're right if you're
00:11:10
if you're like immediately marry a hot person she married a hot person she got pregnant she's so
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beautiful. They've moved in this huge, lovely house and they're like remodeling friends' houses
00:11:21
together. And he just isn't like Alhambra remodeling like the saddest house. He's got
00:11:27
one of those really bad like goatee. Yeah. He's grown out of a divorce goatee that's not working.
00:11:34
Oh, my God. How many divorce goatees are out there? We've seen them where it's just like,
00:11:38
I get it. You're changing it up. Try to change something. You got to try. Please note the term divorce goatee has been copyrighted by My Favorite Murder, Inc.
00:11:46
and cannot be used without pre-written approval. I get it. My divorce goatee was 50 pounds.
00:11:53
So guess what? No judgment. Everyone divorce goatee is different It all different And there no judging Comfort yourself however you can whether it horrible facial hair or nonstop mac and cheese
00:12:06
Do your thing. Yeah. I mean, these days, here's, here's something that isn't really anything I
00:12:12
recommend per se, because it might not be interesting to anybody else. But sometimes at
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night, because I don't want to go anywhere and I don't want to introduce anything new into my
00:12:20
household. So I'll just make myself like a quesadilla or something very basic with my basic
00:12:26
culinary skills. But then I just read Postmates. Like I'll just see what restaurants are still
00:12:32
open in my neighborhood. It's one of my favorite hobbies. It really is where I'm like, I would get
00:12:36
this and this. And then I just like close it all. Just shut it down. Scrolling Postmates. Sometimes
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I open it and I'm like, oh, what's new? Like what's new in my neighborhood? Even though I'm not gonna.
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I know all the restaurants in my neighborhood I know most of them by heart And it was very scary
00:12:53
You can kind of, it's a real measuring stick Postmates because A week after the quarantine was announced
00:13:00
A ton of restaurants just went off Entirely And then you're just like, oh no, I hope those come back
00:13:05
And getting so worried Then there's all those restaurants that got super creative
00:13:08
And they're like, want us to send you a bunch of flour And bread and sugar? We can't
00:13:13
Totally, and there's like a biscuit window near one of the places near my house where they just like make different kinds of biscuit
00:13:18
sandwiches and it's just like just go up to the yeah oh i'm selling my house moving into yours
00:13:24
hello it's so creative yeah i love it that's a great idea all the pantry items and hot luck
00:13:30
i know it's super cool there's so many places it's that that thing too where i'm kind of sometimes
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i'm scrolling going what if i made something yeah it's like you're not going to but then it's or
00:13:40
what if I got a full Italian family dinner? Like, what if I got wall to wall carbs in here?
00:13:48
And then I'm like, close the window. Oh, man. Vince was doing like an order on Costco.
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And he was like, I got this. I got that. I got. And then he said, I have I got ravioli lasagna.
00:14:02
And I was like, hold up. What? So instead of the lasagna pasta sheets, it's just ravioli.
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ravioli. So it's like double timing. It's double the pleasure, double the fun. Front back, front back. These are the times we're living in.
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To remember, get it. Eat it. Eat ravioli lasagna. I mean, how do you not turn to pasta in days like this? How do you not go, that's the solution?
00:14:31
All the rules are off here, which is fun and nice and kind of teaching me like a better way.
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You know, like just don't eat all the bread, but you can have bread, but you can have bread, have really nice, nicely made bread.
00:14:44
And really enjoy it. Don't like beat yourself up while you're eating it. I what I'm doing is it as a small celebration for myself is using a very large cereal bowl.
00:14:56
It's too big. Have you done that where you're just like, this is easily three bowls of cereal.
00:15:01
But let's see what happens. No, that I how have I I've eaten three bowls of cereal in a row, but I've never in my life thought to get a bigger bowl.
00:15:10
Like that's somehow not allowed in my life. It shouldn't be normally. But now it is.
00:15:17
It is now. It is now. I love it. You know, this has taught me two things about myself.
00:15:22
One is that I don't want to bake bread and I never want to bake bread and I have no stuff in the interest in baking bread, even though everyone's baking bread.
00:15:29
How, though? That whole thing of starting your, the wheat, sourdough starter and yeast.
00:15:35
And it's alive. It's just like. They call it a mother. Get out of here. And you have to put flour everywhere.
00:15:41
It's like. And it tells you to make a mess. You touch it so much. You touch flour.
00:15:46
You put it on this. You add more flour. Keep rolling. Flour. And it's disgusting.
00:15:50
Put your whole hand inside it. You make sure your hand gets all over it. That's right.
00:15:55
All bread is 50% someone's palm swivel Oh, God Yeah, now eat your filthy I'd rather it not be mine, I guess
00:16:06
And also that puzzle I have no interest in puzzles Flopping Tried, I got a puzzle of like my favorite photo of me and Vince
00:16:14
We're both taking swigs of beer on stage at the same time So it's just like a can of PBR in both of our faces
00:16:19
Got it, made it as a puzzle Literally poured everything out and was like I don't want to do this
00:16:25
Now, can I just give you a tiny bit of puzzle guidance to take or leave? Yes, please. I have no interest. Yes.
00:16:31
When we do calls that are not Zoom calls, that's all I'm doing, baby. Puzzle time.
00:16:37
I need to. There's no. I should be into it. But however. Yeah. You know what also it is sometimes and you have to have this experience maybe to really have it start feeling like it's paying off.
00:16:52
but sometimes I just stare at the puzzle for a really long time and then I'll just pick up a
00:16:57
piece and put it in immediate like it feels like puzzle psychic ability and that's what keeps me
00:17:03
coming back for more because suddenly I think I have this idea in my head I'm good well that is
00:17:09
what's cool it just crossed my mind that you can get better at puzzles it's not just like you're
00:17:14
always gonna suck as bad as you suck at puzzles it's like your skills get better and better
00:17:18
yeah and it's a little it's almost like can you face this reminds me of like the I can do puzzles
00:17:25
now because of I think the fact that I'm middle-aged and like in a place in my life where
00:17:30
I'm actively practicing like patience and things that I have never been able to even approach before
00:17:37
and it reminds me of like when I was in my late 20s on speed at um like Buffalo Exchange watching
00:17:46
the girl that worked there go through someone's garbage bag filled with clothes and she would
00:17:51
take something out look at it and then fold it and she just very slowly where I was standing there going like oh my god if I had to do that like I was flipping out like how are you doing this How are you doing it so calmly And why do you like it And this is awful
00:18:05
It's like Zen almost where she's just like, this is like origami or something where it's just right.
00:18:10
You have to make sense of it. Not on speed. Right. Oh, that's everything. Speaking of 20 years to realize that birthdays.
00:18:21
Do you want to talk about your birthday? We can cut this out. I feel like everyone who's having a birthday and during this time now we now will understand what it's like for kids who have their birthdays during the summer.
00:18:36
Which is why I have an idea to have a birthday blowout for everybody who has a quarantine birthday when the quarantine ends.
00:18:44
That's a great everyone in the world. Well, I'll just I mean, we'll see who I feel comfortable giving my address to.
00:18:50
But for the most part, we'll have such a good idea. All the birthdays where we're going to get stuck indoors and we'll just have a kind of a someone just pulled into my driveway.
00:19:01
No, they're only turning around. I pull out a rifle. I like the idea of like a party that might go all weekend long.
00:19:11
Oh, yeah. You can stay here. You can get a room at the hotel. Let's just do it. Bring your dog and like blow it out.
00:19:20
Hang out. yeah. Can people bring their dogs? Build a dog park in the back. Yeah.
00:19:24
You know, I get like, I get like disappointed in a visceral level when I find out there's not any pets at the party I'm going
00:19:32
to, you know? Yeah. That means there's no escape hatch for you. That's right. That's right.
00:19:38
Yep. All right. I know. What else do you have? Oh, can I? No, I just asked you a question.
00:19:44
What else? I'm going to let you answer it. No, go ahead. I don't think I have anything else.
00:19:48
I just. Oh. Are you going to do a podcast? No. Oh, yeah, I can. Go ahead. Do it.
00:19:54
You go first. Oh, that's what I was going to I was going to recommend. And I know I've recommended it before.
00:19:59
But my favorite one of my favorite podcasters who is a I think a clinical psychologist and a Buddhist teacher.
00:20:08
Tara Brock. She's doing a series now and it's called Sheltering in Love. And it's all about dealing with the feelings of being in quarantine and the frustrations that come out of it.
00:20:18
And the and the feelings that come up and kind of how to hang. And it's very she's really good.
00:20:25
Yeah. Like, I think she started it, you know, for three, I guess seven weeks ago.
00:20:32
She started it when this happened. Who knows? But there's now like five. There's like five or six episodes of it.
00:20:40
And it's just really helpful. Like I get up in the morning and as I'm doing, you know, the dishes are doing kind of things around the house.
00:20:47
I stick it in. It's just a really nice level set. So if anyone's looking for if anyone feels a little spinny or like my thoughts are taking over or I think this or I think that or whatever.
00:20:57
You're targeting me right now. I'm pointing in your face with my words. It's just I find it so helpful.
00:21:05
Yeah, she's incredible. She's just one of the best. Speaking of, I finally started listening to Unlocking Us with Brene Brown.
00:21:12
And I, you know, I started and I was like, I know everything she says and that. And then, of course, I listened to the first few seconds of the episode and burst into tears, which doesn't shucking happen to me.
00:21:24
What are you talking about? It was. Let me see. Hold on one second. Oh, it was. OK, so it was the episode.
00:21:29
Dr. Mark Brackett, who does studies emotions and teaches us like how to feel. And he said something that happened in his childhood and how hard it was as a kid to like understand what was going on.
00:21:40
feelings started crying. And then there's another episode that I really love called
00:21:45
that's just her talking. It's called it's just Brene on anxiety, calm and over under functioning.
00:21:54
And it's just a 30 minute episode. And you just like learn so much and everything makes sense.
00:21:58
She started calling like your family that you were born into. She calls it your first family.
00:22:04
And that just calmed me in so many ways where it's like, that's not that's not your chosen
00:22:09
family that is the first family that you were born into and then you get a move on from that if you
00:22:13
want and that's just like I really stuck with me so and also you're the family that you are born
00:22:20
into your family your first family or whatever you want to call it is also I always compared
00:22:25
my family to every family on TV because I did that um did you think I was gonna say every other
00:22:32
family around yeah oh yeah no i was always doing it to tv no you that's wow yeah so then i would be
00:22:40
like i remember one time in like you know fourth grade when i was like like trying to confront my
00:22:44
mom about that fact she had a job and she wasn't waiting at home when i got home from school to
00:22:50
give me cookies like who and she like like you know mrs cunningham or whatever like any tv mom
00:22:57
and she just literally she's like are you kidding me like it was like she's it was like this thing
00:23:02
of like what are you talking about like I have to work to pay for your stuff yeah you know what I
00:23:07
mean like that's not real but I just because that's the idea you start getting these ideas
00:23:13
in your head as a kid and if no one if no one interrupts and goes yeah that's not realistic
00:23:19
that's pretty much everybody's mom has to you know either work or the the job of being at home is work
00:23:27
No one's sitting there with their hair done And a bunch of lipstick on going Honey I need you
00:23:32
It's very rare I did that with 90210 And relationships until I was like 20 where I was like this is how relationships
00:23:42
Are supposed to be so dramatic And red flag And then I was like oh you're just modeling after
00:23:48
Brendan and Dylan and Brenda Yeah Shannon Doherty friend of the pod Shannon Doherty
00:23:57
Love you, girl. Hi. Badass. Shannon Doherty, my sister, we saw her at the Beverly Center the first time my sister came to visit me
00:24:05
I know I told you this story But the first time my sister came to visit me when I moved to Los Angeles
00:24:09
We went to the Beverly Center and we were walking around And Shannon Doherty walked by and my sister's the only one who saw her
00:24:16
I didn't even see her That's such a bummer And my sister looked over at her and she gave my sister a huge smile
00:24:22
Like I think my sister had the like deer in the headlights Like holy frankers Because it was prime 90210 era
00:24:28
and she gave my sister this huge, lovely smile, like super nice. And then she my sister's like, oh, my God, Shannon Doherty just smiled at me.
00:24:35
I'm like, well, shark week. That's what sisters do. Sisters. Actually, that's the person I've been texting the most during this time and like connecting
00:24:44
with the most, which is really nice. My sister? No, mine. Although I did have it.
00:24:48
I did talk to your sister on text. Did you text me? And yeah, we text a little bit.
00:24:53
My dad and your and no, wait, your dad and my husband have text a little bit just to check in.
00:25:01
That's the that's the love of a lifetime. Definitely. I'm not surprised that my dad texts Vince because he asks me how Vince is.
00:25:10
I would say every other phone call where I'm just like, I mean, this is sexism. A. Yeah.
00:25:15
And then B. What? Like, just ask him yourself if you're so interested. Vince is a fabulous lumberjack at this point.
00:25:23
That beard. It's like the third person in our quarantine now. It is majestic. I've asked him if I could put flowers in it and take a photo.
00:25:31
It's like. I want to see a picture. Okay. I haven't seen it. I'll send it to you.
00:25:34
We can post it or I'll put flowers in it. It's pretty special. Is it long? It's robust.
00:25:42
Oh, yeah. It's like going wide. Yeah. And there's like all. It's like gray and there's red hair and there's whatever.
00:25:49
I don't need to talk about my husband's beard. Oh, speaking of. Sounds like you like him.
00:25:55
Just speaking of my dad. So apparently, I don't know if you've heard about this, but Britney Spears has a home gym.
00:26:06
And she made a video on Instagram a couple days ago telling everybody that she left some candles burning in her home gym.
00:26:14
And well, basically, she burned her home gym down. What? Yes. I didn't hear that.
00:26:18
Yeah. And so people have been tweeting me the video and going, what would Jim think of this?
00:26:24
Oh, yeah. And going like, we need to know Jim's response. So I actually called my dad.
00:26:29
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I called him and I'm like, Dad, you're going to have to hang in there. Now, here's the problem.
00:26:34
My dad lost one of his hearing aids somewhere during the quarantine. So he's still waiting for it to be mailed to him.
00:26:41
So it takes a while to explain where I'm like, Dad, do you remember the 90s pop star?
00:26:48
it took a while but then he's like all right okay and then and then it gets mad at you because he's
00:26:54
like yeah i know what you're talking about but i've been explaining it to you yeah and it takes
00:26:58
so long that he thinks i just want him to acknowledge that she exists and he changes
00:27:03
the subject where i'm like no there's a story dad dad she she left two candles burning and basically
00:27:11
burned down her home gym and i can't this isn't something i can respond explain to people on
00:27:16
Twitter so I figured I would save it till now because he went and had this loud Santa Claus
00:27:23
laugh I can't even do it correctly it sounds joyous it sounds joyous he he loved it he thought it was
00:27:29
hilarious where it's like now that he's retired he's the the job is so far in the past he can I
00:27:36
think be more light-hearted about he thought it was the funny funniest thing he'd ever heard that
00:27:40
It seems really hard to do. Like, I think like these days, candles are made in such a way where it's unless you put it under a curtain.
00:27:51
Yeah. It's hard to light Chicago on fire with them. And we're going to get a bunch of messages telling me that's not flipping true.
00:27:57
And I totally agree. And I know. I mean, but I think there's in some ways. Well, people are at least looking toward that a little bit more these days as candle makers.
00:28:07
But clearly there's a large chunk of that story that's missing on Brittany's part.
00:28:12
But it's like and like, so how many days did they burn? Like, what are you talking about?
00:28:18
That two candles brought down your home gym. Yeah. And who works out to candlelight?
00:28:23
That's another question I have. For real. Like, that doesn't it. You're on the elliptical, like, sipping wine with candles and some Richard Marks playing in the background?
00:28:33
Cool. Home gym. A romantic workout? Hey, Home Gym. That's your dad's podcast. Hey!
00:28:41
Oh, and then basically, so I told, I explained to him that people were asking what he thought about that on Twitter.
00:28:46
And then he just went, I got fans. I got fans. Gym. Gym. We're big fans. Home Gym.
00:28:56
Home Gym. That's him during the quarantine. Is that it? Okay, sorry. Oh, no, that was the best story.
00:29:06
I wish you had led with that was incredible. I wish I wish it had been different.
00:29:12
I know. Exactly right. Media. That's our podcast network that we started. And we have, of course, the new podcasts are Bananas.
00:29:20
And I said no gifts with Bridger Weineger, which was in Oprah. Oprah magazine. Oh, man.
00:29:27
Guys. Congratulations to Bridger. That is. Oprah picked you, Bridger. It's like his first month or two of podcasting.
00:29:35
And it's in Oprah already Yes, it's very cool We just found out before pressing record
00:29:41
That if you go to iTunes and search Exactly right, all the podcasts That are on our network come up
00:29:46
So you can check out what's going on Oh, I have a really quick corrections corner
00:29:51
Yeah I said in the mini this week I pronounced City wrong shockingly Really Yeah New Hampshire town is pronounced Nashua
00:30:05
Not Nashaw County or Nashua. Nashua. Sorry about that, guys. New Hampshire? Yes.
00:30:13
I think so. I mean, we need a corrections corner for next week, so we might as well. We really do.
00:30:20
This is called creating content. It's how you do it. Yeah. We took a class. We took a class in influencing.
00:30:27
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For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex, Snap and Go. Goodbye. Do you know what story I'm going to do this week?
00:33:21
Tell me. I'm going to do the rescue of baby Jessica McClure. Starbucks. Going back to the 80s.
00:33:31
Oh, good one. How have we not done that great one? Well, it's really out of the, well, underline, italicize. It's out of the normal true crime milieu, I would say. But I was, you know, we were talking about where I was like, we can just do what we would like to talk about. We don't have to be so, we don't have to adhere.
00:33:54
And then once I got into it, as always happens, once you start reading articles, there is an unbelievable article by a writer named Lisa Belkin that was written in 1995 for the New York Times.
00:34:09
And it's called Death on the CNN Curve. And I recommend everybody read this article.
00:34:16
It is an unbelievable expose about this time in the late 80s. So I guess CNN started in 1980. It didn't really start making money until 1985. So before that, it was just this kind of it was almost like C-SPAN. It was 24 hour news that no one watched. It was really boring and dull. And it was just for I don't even know. I don't know what it was for. But then, you know, mid to late 80s, it started gaining a little bit of traction. And this baby Jessica story is one of the things that started kicking off the 24 hour news cycle.
00:34:50
Disasters. People are just so interested in disasters. Right. But this was. Yeah, I mean, we if anyone relates.
00:34:59
It's us. I'm not shaming anyone. Right here. Yeah. But it's just fascinating because before this time and it's so difficult for a lot of people who weren't around for this.
00:35:09
And it's odd to even think about now, like there's this time in the late 70s, early 80s where nothing was branded.
00:35:16
Like there wasn't stuff, brands of things sticking up all over. You didn't have there wasn't that brand awareness.
00:35:22
It would just be like if there was a calendar on the wall, it would just be a willow tree.
00:35:26
You know what I mean? You would just had a brown couch, a brown plaid couch and shag carpet.
00:35:32
Yeah. You buy your couch from Sears or JCPenney. Or it's just the couch that was there when you moved in.
00:35:38
Right. Like it was there was this real brown low key aspect of life. Nothing. Nothing was sexy.
00:35:45
Nothing was nothing was being advertised toward any demographic. it was all very kind of
00:35:50
it was like rich people so it was like out of our eye shot or it was aspirational like the band de soleil commercial the lady diving into the pool you never be here by Band of Soleil Right I love that commercial anyway
00:36:05
So this is kind of about the time where the 24 hour news cycle began to take off.
00:36:12
And then I think that's another reason why I was kind of went, oh, this would be good to talk about now.
00:36:16
Yeah. Because now we are in this world where we're so used to it and we're so used to just getting constant information
00:36:23
and kind of being left to the mercy of the 24-hour news cycle, whether or not we're choosing to participate.
00:36:30
It's a barrage. Yeah. Well, you know, but I was going to say this because at the end of the episode
00:36:35
before the live show that we posted two weeks ago, I did say something about the news is trying to scare you.
00:36:42
And there was a couple reporters that tweeted at me like they were upset about it,
00:36:46
which it was like what I meant was the people who decide what goes on the news Because I was absolutely wrong to say that in terms of how many journalists are out there, you know, risking it all to tell important stories and get the facts.
00:37:01
And and also, especially these days, there's so many feel good stories and stories about people caring about each other and connecting with each other.
00:37:09
So I did misspeak and I kind of used the language of the people who want to attack the media.
00:37:15
And I should have thought that through better. So I do apologize. Yeah. But I more meant the people who decide what we ingest as news, which is not it goes way above all the people who are trying to report the news.
00:37:29
Right. Keep us all in. It's the shareholders that decide what's allowed. It's the six billionaires that run a political baby from.
00:37:38
So, OK, excuse me, I just scared Elvis. Yes, we obviously your boyfriend. We We obviously
00:37:47
We wouldn't have a podcast if it weren't for these incredible Journalists who do so much insane
00:37:52
Wonderful work that we then You know regurgitate Condense and regurgitate and we are so
00:37:58
Grateful for that and in my wildest dreams I would be a journalist I mean truly and
00:38:03
Yeah true crime journalists true crime Writers like yes we would not be here Without them so my apologies to
00:38:10
Anyone that was offended yeah and that's why We up top before our stories give credits because we know it's so important.
00:38:17
Entirely. So this story I'm about to tell you, I was going to tell you the version that I kind of experienced.
00:38:24
And then I read Lisa Belkin's article, which was kind of about the full experience, not just what happened directly after the rescue, but then the effect that had and the effect the fame had and the effect, the fact that the world could see this.
00:38:38
The world could see what happened in Midland, Texas, this tiny little town. Like, I mean, it's it and it at a time where it hadn't really happened that much.
00:38:48
Yeah. So this was one of the first times that happened. It's really fascinating.
00:38:53
So anyway, so it is October 14th, 1987. I'm 17. My eyebrows are flourishing in a way.
00:39:01
It looks like two huge black caterpillars have crawled onto my forehead and made a home for themselves.
00:39:09
Oh, 17-year-old Karen. What I wouldn't give to just like hang out, just like carpool somewhere with her.
00:39:14
Just have a chat. And she would have done it if you had some California coolers in the backseat.
00:39:20
She would be down to clown. Yeah. Big hoop earrings, California coolers, 1987. Amazing.
00:39:27
So, but now we're in Midland, Texas. We're not in Petaluma, California. We're in Midland, Texas.
00:39:31
And it's the morning of October 14th, 1987. An 18-year-old Reba, her nickname is Sissy McClure.
00:39:39
She's at her sister Jamie's house at 3309 Tanner Drive in Midland. And Jamie has a daycare that she runs out of her home.
00:39:47
And so Sissy's there with like five kids, one of whom is her 18-month-old daughter, Jessica.
00:39:54
So all the kids are out in the backyard and Sissy's out there with them playing.
00:39:59
And then the phone rings. So she runs inside to grab it. And while she's inside on the phone, she hears all the kids scream.
00:40:07
So she runs back outside and all the kids are standing around a pipe that is three inches coming three inches up out of the ground and only eight inches in diameter.
00:40:19
And her 18 month old daughter has fallen down this pipe. It's a mother's worst nightmare.
00:40:26
And she's standing in it. and freaking out, of course. Oh, my God. She can hear her daughter.
00:40:33
I believe she can hear her daughter crying. Oh, I will also say that there's a TV movie that was made in, I believe, 1990,
00:40:41
starring Patty Duke and Bo Bridges. It's called Everybody's Baby, the Jessica McClellan story.
00:40:48
So in that, the mother hears her crying, but I don't know if that's factual. That's just what happened in the TV movie.
00:40:57
Okay. How deep? So I just, we don't know how deep it is yet. We'll find out. The well?
00:41:01
Yeah. You will. Okay. Event. Got it. Event. Okay. So she, of course, runs back in, calls the police.
00:41:09
They're there in three minutes. And basically, they come to find out that this pipe is basically leading down to an abandoned well.
00:41:18
Oh, flake. So it's very deep. Just so you know. Yeah. So the first police officer on the scene is 32-year-old Bobby Jo Hall, BJ.
00:41:27
is his nickname. Bobby Joe. Bobby Joe. Everybody got a nickname in Midland. Bobby Joe
00:41:33
BJ Hall comes to the front door. Sissy gets there. She is, of course, out of her mind. She just keeps saying over and over,
00:41:41
I can't let my baby die. I gotta get her out. So, Officer Hall assures Sissy that they're gonna save Jessica.
00:41:48
He tries to look down this shaft to see her, but it's too dark. He can't see anything He calls out her name a few times There no response at first Then he can hear faint crying So they know she alive Paramedics show up at the same time as the police So the paramedics are back there with them They
00:42:06
start pumping oxygen down into the opening. As more first responders arrive on the scene,
00:42:12
someone comes up with an idea to lower a microphone that's attached to a flashlight
00:42:17
down into the shaft so they can hear her. So they're calling out to her. They wait to hear her
00:42:23
respond then she they they hear her you know make sounds back and they can figure out from the length
00:42:30
of the microphone that she's 22 feet down this well mother of pearl yeah way the funnel cake
00:42:37
underground yeah so after that they a little while after that they figure out a way to lower a video
00:42:44
camera down into the well and so they can see like how she's down there because they don't
00:42:50
understand. And essentially, they lower it down, they get this kind of side view. And she has
00:42:56
fallen down. So it's in the diameter is eight inch, eight inches of this pipe. How big is that?
00:43:01
What's that like? Eight inches is less than a foot. So it's like if 12 inches as a foot.
00:43:06
Like that? Yeah. Take a deep breath and repeat after me. I like myself. I love myself. I forgive myself.
00:43:20
it's like it's basically like that like it's tiny like it's a big huge pipe but tiny for a child
00:43:29
there's no wriggle room for her at all not at all and in fact what they realized when the video goes
00:43:35
down there is that she's stuck with her right leg up and pinned to the wall and her left leg down so
00:43:42
she's kind of in the splits a little bit oh baby yes i know so uh the midland fire and police
00:43:49
departments, they work together, they come up with this plan and they're like, we have to dig a second
00:43:53
shaft next to this well and then tunnel across and then get in access and get her out that way.
00:44:00
Okay. So the city of Midland gets a backhoe over there. They tear down the neighbor's fences. And
00:44:07
this is a funny thing too. So it's, it's a very, this neighborhood is very kind of like lower
00:44:12
middle class, like the houses, the houses all look like my old house. It's just like a basic
00:44:17
two bedroom house. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, like all these houses are little square
00:44:21
little houses. They went up in the seventies and they're in the, yeah. Yeah. And they're like with
00:44:26
five foot fences in the backyard. So if you stood in your backyard, you could see into your
00:44:30
neighbor's backyard. Like, Hey, what's up? It's not like eight big tall, eight foot fences is like
00:44:34
that. So, but they're like, they have to come in and like knock people's fences down, get this
00:44:38
backhoe in there. They start to dig down two or three feet and then they hit basically bedrock,
00:44:44
like really hard rock they've realized that they're going to need something with more power
00:44:48
it's not a backhoe isn't going to do it so they bring it luckily they're in midland texas which
00:44:53
was like an oil town big time so there's all kinds of like you know drilling for oil type of
00:45:00
places you know what everyone knows what we mean we're from california place you know
00:45:08
they're everywhere and all the drill like all all they have yeah all this heavy equipment is around
00:45:13
town because of that. Texans know what we're talking about. They know and they relate.
00:45:19
And hey, what's up, Texas? You've always supported us. Thank you. OK, so they bring in what's called a rat hole rig, which they usually use to drill holes
00:45:27
to sink telephone poles. OK, so even even using heavy machinery, it takes hours.
00:45:35
And basically, if like as the hours pass, this backyard is starting to fill up with firemen,
00:45:40
Policemen Paramedics Volunteers People who are hearing There's a little girl trapped
00:45:45
And people saying Okay well I have this rig And I used to work at this You know Like all these people
00:45:51
That know No drilling And they're showing up to help So the whole backyard Is starting to fill up with people
00:45:56
And one of those people Is 36 year old Police detective Andy Glasscock And he's actually
00:46:01
Going to spend The next 72 hours Essentially laying On his belly On the ground Next to this opening
00:46:07
Calling down to Jessica and getting her to respond to him to make sure that she is still alive.
00:46:13
He's like the hostage negotiator, but in a sweet way. Yes, he's the baby hostage and the hostage taker is the well.
00:46:26
The baby down the well. Yeah, whisperer. So he's a dad himself. So he's saying that he's calling down, making her say stuff back to him.
00:46:36
And so he said after a while he could tell what her mood was. So she would switch between angry huffs or pained whimpers or cooing.
00:46:46
And she would answer 80% of the time. But in the 20% when she wouldn't respond, of course, everyone would get super nervous.
00:46:54
Then they would say, oh, maybe she's sleeping or she's just really exhausted. And then Andy would go yell down the pipe, what does a kitten go?
00:47:02
How does a kitten go? And then they'd hear meow. Oh, my God. Right? It's the saddest.
00:47:09
Oh. And at one point. Kids can't not respond to what does whatever go. Yes. They're trained.
00:47:16
By 18 months, all American children are trained to tell you what every animal, what every sound every animal makes.
00:47:23
Oh. At one point, they're, they pause in the drilling and it's really quiet. And then they can all, because the microphone's down there, they can all hear her singing.
00:47:34
Winnie the Pooh, Winnie the Pooh to herself. She's comforting herself. She's comforting herself.
00:47:41
And I'm editorializing here, but I imagine all those big, strong Texan men lost their
00:47:46
shit. Absolutely. And in a very strong, manly Texan way, cried or brushed a single tear off and then got mad
00:47:55
and demanded that someone bring them coffee. Awesome stuff. Wow. So now October 14th, 1987 is actually a very big news day.
00:48:03
So a U.S. flag tanker is hit by a missile in Kuwait. First Lady Nancy Reagan is actually hospitalized for breast cancer.
00:48:12
And the Dow Jones drops more than 100 points that day. But none of those stories capture America's attention the way baby Jessica being stuck in the well does.
00:48:23
And that's mainly due to the fact that CNN is covering it nonstop. Yeah. I said this already a little bit beforehand, but it had been running for seven years at that point.
00:48:33
But this is only the second time they or any station covered a story live around the clock.
00:48:40
The first one was a year earlier when the space shuttle Challenger exploded. Right.
00:48:45
And this story was just as big, but in this way of that it still had an inkling of hope.
00:48:51
Yeah. So CNN has reporters live on the scene almost immediately and they keep their cameras like rolling on this backyard for this rescue mission nonstop the entire time.
00:49:05
And everyone is glued to the TV. Millions and millions and millions of Americans.
00:49:08
Seven year old Georgia was sweaty watching for sure. Seventeen year old Karen was drinking in a field, but her heart was with the family.
00:49:18
No, I saw it all. So other news networks pick up the story and this backyard becomes it's a media frenzy.
00:49:25
So when as reporters show up, neighbors are letting news cameramen like because first of all, the backyard fills up entirely that Jamie's backyard fills up.
00:49:35
Yeah. Then the neighbors are letting news cameramen into their backyards that are surrounding backyard.
00:49:41
And they're sitting on ladders in neighbors backyards with their cameras so they can get the shot above everything else.
00:49:48
And then that becomes kind of the surrounding outline. And so and that those spots are like coveted new spots because those are all the people that have the shot. You know what I mean? So it's and it's like ringing it. So all these guys are sitting up and then they need somebody to go down and like hold the ladder. It was all it was all like jostling for space. It was like a really big deal.
00:50:11
Midland's local TV station, KMID TV, they start getting calls from all around the world for people asking for updates on Jessica's rescue mission.
00:50:20
Holy sinkhole. So the places that didn't have CNN or couldn't do it, people are just calling in, like hearing about it.
00:50:27
Okay, so it takes the rescue team six hours to dig the first parallel shaft. Now nighttime is getting dark.
00:50:36
the whole world is on the edge of their seats and everyone is everyone is just scared to
00:50:42
death will they get to her in time yeah do we know who coined baby Jessica or it just kind of became the name of
00:50:50
I think it just became it I don't know I didn't find anything that said that but
00:50:56
it was me I take credit took her first sip of her first virus and James and then turned to
00:51:04
her friend and said I'm calling her baby she's my baby suddenly I have a Texan accent for no reason
00:51:11
and also it's not really Texan okay so here's what I love the Midland police chief and the Midland fire
00:51:19
chief both know they don't have enough experience for a rescue that's this important
00:51:25
and this you know complicated delicate yeah complicated so they reach out to a man named David Lilly who's a special
00:51:33
investigator with the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration in New Mexico. He's originally
00:51:39
from West Virginia and he grew up in a family of miners. So he has extensive experience and
00:51:44
knowledge in underground recovery. So they fly David Lilly out to Midland and basically interview
00:51:52
him on the spot and immediately realize he is he knows his stuff. He's the guy. And now David
00:52:00
Lily is in charge of this rescue operation. So by the time he gets there, this parallel shaft has
00:52:07
been dug 29 feet deep down. It's 30 inches wide. And they're actually starting to dig a horizontal
00:52:16
tunnel across to where they know Jessica is stuck. But then David realizes there's a problem
00:52:22
with the tunnel's trajectory because they've made it so they're aiming right for where she is.
00:52:29
But that would mean they would have to break the wall in on her. And so he's like, no, no, no.
00:52:34
We have to dig down even further and then tunnel across and up. So he reroutes them.
00:52:42
So basically the tunnel will connect two feet below where Jessica is stuck. OK. So he also notices the dig team is using weak drill bits, which makes them have to stop and resharpen over and over.
00:52:55
And it takes up way too much time. So he gets them drill bits made of tungsten carbide and they drill for longer and so they don't have to stop or do anything.
00:53:05
And he would later explain his strategy saying, quote, our strategy was that we would drill a series of holes in a square about 24 inches across and 18 inches down.
00:53:18
And the holes would be no more than two inches apart. And then we would take a 45 pound jackhammer, also with a tungsten bit and hold it there to knock out the rock.
00:53:28
And we were going about an inch an hour. It was terribly hard rock. And it was slow going because you had to lie on down on your stomach holding a 45 pound jackhammer in front of you.
00:53:41
Holy Snickers. But I've never seen more dedicated people. That quotes from People Mag.
00:53:48
So the next day is October 15th, and the team finally reaches the wall of the well.
00:53:55
But the rock around the well is even harder So in order to drill through that they have to use a high pressure water jet cutting But finally they do break through
00:54:05
But the entryway they make is really small. There's a local roofing contractor named Ron Short, and he comes to volunteer to help because he was born without collarbones.
00:54:16
And so he can like basically fold in his shoulders. Yep. And basically fit into cramped spaces.
00:54:24
Yes. So he's there. I mean, this is what the people of this spot into in like Midland, but all around.
00:54:31
Yeah. People show up and they're just like, hey, there's in this in Lisa Belkin's article.
00:54:37
She says there's a contortionist that shows up from Dallas is like, what can I do?
00:54:41
Oh, my God. Like people are just like, we want to. Yeah. We want to help. But they don't know how badly baby Jessica's hurt.
00:54:51
And they know that moving her could potentially make it worse. So they finally decide that a Midland firefighter with paramedic training named Robert O'Donnell is should be the one that goes down into this shaft.
00:55:05
So this is actually going to be a full quote from Lisa Belkin's article, Death on the CNN Curve.
00:55:11
Quote, at noon on the third day, the drillers stopped. The reporters clung to their ladders and everybody watched as O'Donnell with a mining light strapped to his head was lowered by a cable harness down the shaft.
00:55:24
He was chosen because he was tall and thin, six feet, 145 pounds. He didn't mention he was also claustrophobic.
00:55:31
He laid down on his back and wriggled headfirst through the cross tunnel with his arms out in front of him.
00:55:38
The air was wet and sticky and within moments he was bathed in sweat. It was like trying to slither through a tightly wrapped sleeping bag.
00:55:45
He would tell reporters later. Can you imagine? No. He inched to the end of the tunnel until he could look up at the shaft that held Jessica.
00:55:56
Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard.
00:56:01
The rest was raw rock wall. One of Jessica's feet was dangling down toward Robert, but the other was out of sight, wedged near her head.
00:56:09
So she was almost in a split. And this is his quote, Juicy, which is the parent's nickname for Jessica.
00:56:16
Juicy, I'm here to help you. Oh, I might cry. Sorry. He asked her to move her leg and she did.
00:56:25
Satisfied that she probably had no overwhelming spinal injuries, he started to tug on her foot, but she didn't budge.
00:56:32
She was wedged in too tight and he did not have enough room to maneuver. He cursed.
00:56:37
He prayed. He became resigned to the fact that he would have to leave so that the diggers could widen the tunnel.
00:56:43
Oh, my God. He promised her he would come back. God, that poor little girl. Yeah.
00:56:50
So he has to go back through that tunnel that was so awful to go through. Without her.
00:56:55
Without her. He comes up. He's really upset. There's some people, there are doctors on the scene
00:57:01
That are like, we think he's too upset To go back in, but he insisted That he was fine
00:57:06
They got Vaseline And they made it a little wider They got Vaseline And there was also, just so you know, it's really interesting
00:57:14
I found this infographic that showed How narrow this crazy tunnel Was at top and how it widened out
00:57:21
And they put a balloon under her So that she wouldn't fall further down Oh, ships, yeah
00:57:27
Yeah. So like they came in, they put the balloon down there and then basically he went in, you know, it was widened out a little bit and and they just basically put a little Vaseline. He tugged on her. He pulled her and he got her and he pulled her back through the tunnel. So at 10 at 10 p.m. on October 16th, 1987, after 58 hours, two and a half days of being trapped.
00:57:52
I have chills. Yeah. 18 month old Jessica is pulled free by Robert O'Donnell and taken back across the tunnel to the parallel shaft where.
00:58:02
So at the bottom of the shaft, that parallel shaft that they dug, paramedic Steve Forbes is waiting there.
00:58:09
He has a backboard, which is that thing they put like when you're a car accident or whatever.
00:58:13
He has a little one for a little baby. He has a bunch of gauze. So he wraps her head.
00:58:18
She's got a big cut on her head and her arms and, you know, stuff wrong with her legs.
00:58:23
So he basically does real rudimentary kind of head wrap. He sticks her on this backboard and they get onto this like plank.
00:58:31
And the two Forbes and baby Jessica are carried 29 feet up and out of the shaft.
00:58:38
And when they get to the top and I swear to God, you all have to go and watch this.
00:58:42
It's a 40 second clip on YouTube. And it was I was crying so hard. I was like, this is more than just this video, but it's so beautiful when they get to the top.
00:58:52
It's 10 o'clock at night. So it's all this, you know, it's nighttime. But then it's all these lights like camera lights that they put up.
00:58:59
Yeah. And by this point, you've got the reporters on their ladders. But it's like it's like eight people deep.
00:59:06
It's mostly men. It's mostly these rescue workers and these volunteers. And when they come up out of this well, there is cheering and applause like you would.
00:59:16
I mean, these are seasoned reporters. These are like paramedics and firemen that seen everything and people are going nuts.
00:59:23
Oh, my God. Church bells across the town of Midland are ringing. And Jessica, even though she's covered in dirt, she's clearly dazed.
00:59:33
Her mom is right there trying to get, you know, trying to get to her. She's alive.
00:59:37
And at this point, all three TV networks, all three TV networks, because it's 1987, break
00:59:45
into their regular programming to announce that baby Jessica has been rescued. Dan Rather actually said, live from Midland, Texas, Jessica McClure is up.
00:59:54
She alive What a fighter So good OK So she taken to the hospital Baby Jessica is taken to the hospital Oh and just in the video just you know there a paramedic
01:00:07
basically Steve Forbes. So Robert O'Donnell is the one who got her out of the well, handed
01:00:13
to Steve Forbes. Steve Forbes is the one who secured her and brought her up out of the
01:00:16
shaft. And then Forbes handed Jessica to paramedic Bill McQueen. And he's the one that
01:00:22
you see walking her out very quickly out of that backyard into a waiting ambulance.
01:00:26
She's rushed to a hospital. She's in the hospital for over a month, about 36 days.
01:00:33
She's got a pretty bad wound on her forehead. And because her foot was above her head the whole time, the loss of circulation, she actually
01:00:43
got gangrene and they had to amputate one of her toes. Oh, no. But other than that, she's OK, which is pretty amazing.
01:00:51
Over the next few years, she has to have about six surgeries. But aside from a spore head scar and the toe, she's she's totally fine.
01:01:01
And her hospital bills are paid. She all the doctors that worked on her donated their time.
01:01:07
And then her remaining hospital bills are paid by anonymous donors. Wow. And the entire world begins to send gifts and toys and cakes and all this stuff to Midland, Texas for baby Jessica. She is totally inundated. President Reagan and the First Lady call the McClure's, tell them that they watched from Nancy's hospital room. She was supposed to go in for a biopsy and she said she wouldn't leave her hospital room until the baby came up. That's the quote from Nancy Reagan.
01:01:38
I spit on the ground of that name, but still, but still, we're all human beings doing our best.
01:01:45
So are we? OK. I mean, are they? What? Will we? Were they? Did they? Sometimes. There are parades for the rescuers.
01:01:54
And when Jessica is fully recovered and out of the hospital, the McClure's guest on Live with Regis and Cappy Lee.
01:02:00
Yes. Remember? They get to give their firsthand account of the story. Of course, baby Jessica is so charming and lively and everyone is in love with her.
01:02:10
And of course, in 1989, they make the ABC television movie Everybody's Baby, the Rescue of Jessica McClure, starring Patty Duke and Bo Bridges.
01:02:17
But of course, as with all things like this, with sudden and huge worldwide fame, there's a dark side.
01:02:24
The state of Texas files a negligence claim against Jessica's aunt, Jamie Moore, whose daycare center it was.
01:02:31
What? There's a mine pipe and you're forking. yard. I know. That's the city. But it's pretty much what they have to do when if something
01:02:42
happens to a kid, they have to do it. And apparently the person at that department where
01:02:47
those claims are filed was like, those people have suffered enough. But Jamie Moore ended up
01:02:53
closing her that daycare permanently. I mean, of course. So then the charges were dropped.
01:03:00
But both the pressure of worldwide and small town fame eventually gets to Jessica's parents, Sissy and Chip McClure, when they take $30,000 of the money that is given because people end up having to open like a trust account because people just keep giving money.
01:03:18
So they take 30 grand and buy a three bedroom house on the edge of town, which is huge and way bigger than the house they already had.
01:03:25
30 grand. Can you imagine? 30 grand. The town gossip is like they're spending all of Jessica's money. People start to go crazy
01:03:31
because it's jealousy and all kinds of stuff. There's this is an amazing quote from Lisa
01:03:38
Belkin's article that it really warmed my heart. We're not really. You'll see. Quote.
01:03:46
This is we were over at Denny's one day soon after it happened when she came in, says Maria
01:03:51
Petronella who lives two doors down from the house with the well and was out front with a garden hose
01:03:57
on a recent June morning trying to resuscitate her baked shriveled grass. There was a wait and
01:04:02
she looked at the guy and says, just like that, do you know who I am? I'm Jessica's mother. I said
01:04:07
to her, if it wasn't for a whole lot of other people, you wouldn't be anybody's mother. Oh,
01:04:13
swish. So this is the kind of friendly small town, you know, pressure and like the behavior change,
01:04:21
The gravy status hierarchy, celebrity, financial change, the celebrity aspect. Everything goes nuts.
01:04:30
Yeah. It seems like it never works out great. Well, if everything changes overnight, I mean, how can it work out great?
01:04:38
Yeah, look at us. You saw us at Denny's. We're out of our minds cutting in front of people left and right.
01:04:46
I got to get Moon over Miami. And I got to get it before you. That's what makes it delicious
01:04:52
So Sissy and Chip McClure end up getting a divorce in 1990 The pressure just gets to them
01:04:57
But worse than that The fame and the pressure also affects the first responders who are there
01:05:03
So this is another big quote from Lisa Belkin's article from New York Times Quote
01:05:09
The attention heaped on the McClures trickled down to the central players in the rescue
01:05:14
Andy Glasscock was seen in the Michael Jackson video Man in the Mirror That's right
01:05:18
Remember? included flashes of major news events. Forbes and O'Donnell each received a wall full of citations and plaques,
01:05:27
and O'Donnell was asked to serve as a judge for the G.I. Joe's search for real American heroes
01:05:32
and attend the White House awards ceremony for that program. Not only was he a guest when Oprah Winfrey brought her show to Midland,
01:05:40
but he also sat next to her at the press conference beforehand. He was invited to speak at so many firefighter conventions around the country
01:05:48
that he developed a slide presentation. Forbes and O'Donnell and their wives were flown to Los Angeles
01:05:54
to appear on the television program Third Degree where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated individuals have in common The panelists knew immediately who they were
01:06:05
Wow. Yeah, that's how they were. Famous, yeah. A four-foot by six-foot plaque was hung on the wall of the Midland Center,
01:06:12
a bronze rendition of the Pulitzer Prize-winning photo. Oh, so there was a news photographer from
01:06:18
an Odessa newspaper who was one of the people up on one of those ladders. And when the baby got
01:06:24
brought up, he snapped a photo that went on to win a Pulitzer. Holy shit. So like big stuff was
01:06:30
happening for all these people around there. Okay. An area a few blocks away was renamed
01:06:34
Volunteer Park. At the actual site of the rescue, an iron plate was welded over the pipe with the
01:06:40
inscription, for Jessica with love from all of us. In an emotional ceremony, the rescuers,
01:06:46
including O'Donnell, planted a red bud seedling surrounded by a ring of lavender chrysanthemum
01:06:52
over the refilled parallel shaft. Sounds beautiful. Yeah. So then, of course, Hollywood comes calling
01:07:00
and there's multiple offers for TV, for movies or TV movies. So the rescuers and the volunteers
01:07:08
become divided into two warring factions and they each accuse the other of only caring about the money
01:07:15
while claiming that they're the ones who care about the story being told well. Or they did the most important work and whatever.
01:07:23
Yeah. So essentially, it's that first wave. No one's experienced any of this before.
01:07:29
And everybody, it gets, as I like to say, high on their own supply. Amen. So the one who seemed to suffer the most from this fame and then its inevitable sudden withdrawal
01:07:42
was the fireman Robert O'Donnell, who first pulled Jessica out of the well. When the phone stopped ringing, he became depressed and listless.
01:07:51
He then became addicted to painkillers. Eventually, his wife left him. He lost his job as a fireman.
01:07:57
And then soon after the Oklahoma City bombing in April of 1995, clearly suffering from PTSD, he drove down a lone ranch road and shot himself in his truck.
01:08:09
He left he left a note that said no help from nobody but family. Oh, God. Just so tragic.
01:08:16
And I didn't know anything about that part of the story until I read Lisa Belkin's article.
01:08:22
And please go read this article. It's mind blowing. She spent a lot of time with him before he died.
01:08:28
She spent time in Midland. She tells the story from the inside of watching this town, like go through this amazing, beautiful, miraculous event.
01:08:38
And then basically the fallout and how it affects people afterwards. It's really incredibly reported.
01:08:45
PTSD is an ugly. Yeah, apparently when the he was watching the the rescuers go into, you know, the the Oklahoma bomb site.
01:08:56
And he said to I think by that time he was living with his mother. I mean, things were very dark for him.
01:09:02
And he looked at his mother and said, those guys are going to need help. Yeah. Like like just knowing and seeing like, oh, this is this is what happened to us on like an even bigger scale.
01:09:13
Right. Totally. But the upside and the kind of miraculous thing is baby Jessica herself turned out great.
01:09:21
So she goes on. She graduates from Greenwood High School in 2004. She gets a job working in a daycare center.
01:09:28
And as she's working there, one of her co-workers introduces her to her brother who becomes her husband.
01:09:36
They get married in 2006. They have two kids, a little boy in 2007 and a little girl in 2009.
01:09:43
And then what's my favorite, favorite part of the story and so beautiful. People never stop donating to baby Jessica's trust fund.
01:09:54
And she wasn't allowed to access it till her 25th birthday. It had $800,000. What?
01:10:00
Are you judging? Kidding me. Nope. Nope. People from all over the world gave baby Jessica money for years and years and years.
01:10:11
Can you imagine? Can you, stuffing, imagine. So, and also like, yeah, it's like basically, oh, my neighbor's waving hi.
01:10:22
Hi. That's the guy that told me I was beautiful. Oh, hi, we love you. I love him.
01:10:27
Okay. So then other than a small scar on her forehead, and of course, not having, she only has nine toes.
01:10:34
Right. But other than that, Jessica doesn't remember falling. She doesn't remember being in the well.
01:10:39
She doesn't remember being rescued. she doesn't feel traumatized by it she feels really lucky
01:10:45
and she says that the one amazing lesson that she learned from that whole experience
01:10:50
she's told this to Time Magazine if you look hard enough there are so many good people in the world
01:10:56
right and that is the story of the rescue of baby Jessica McClure Karen now can I just
01:11:06
here's a post script and this is real And I've told a bunch of people this. So because at first I was like, I'm not going to tell this story on my podcast because then someone's going to steal my idea. But all right. I think this is. I think I wrote this document, I would say 2009.
01:11:24
okay and it was this is something you wrote this is something okay so this is this idea i got um i
01:11:32
think it was like i was probably unemployed kind of just you know and i started thinking about the
01:11:36
story because of how amazing it was and how big it was at the time um so i started i wrote up a
01:11:44
document because i wanted to write a sitcom called oh well about adult baby jessica being a total
01:11:52
monster. Okay, so here's the idea. And this was, I knew nothing about real baby Jessica. So
01:11:57
real baby Jessica, if you hear this fictionalized. I love that you're normal, cool, and you have $800,000.
01:12:04
Everything about it. But my idea was, oh, because I think I heard this. I heard like in People or Time or whatever that she had this huge trust fund.
01:12:14
And in my mind, it was like, it's $7 million or whatever. So here's my document.
01:12:19
It's a sitcom called Oh Well. And it takes place in Midland, Texas. Baby Jessica is now grown up and lives in a mansion built over the well she fell into when she was 18 months old.
01:12:28
A trust was set up that day that the public made donations into, which has resulted in her living and behaving like a millionaire.
01:12:35
She loves horses. Everyone still calls her the baby. Her mansion is built over the well and she talks into it like a friend at night.
01:12:43
She has a know-it-all butler, a scroungy family. The town worships her. She has flights of fancy from the trauma she suffered as a baby.
01:12:51
So animals and creatures come to visit her from time to time that she first met while she hallucinated them down in the well.
01:12:58
Oh, my God. She's treated like a holy relic in the town. People come from all over to see her.
01:13:04
And she's constantly being asked to do talk shows and parades. And she's horribly jealous of any other child in peril on the news.
01:13:12
Oh, my God. Let's get that made. This is going to be my next big project. It's called Oh, Well.
01:13:20
It is not based on fact. But I love the idea of someone like this that you're just going to take it.
01:13:27
you're just going to be a rescued baby and then be like now you're all my servants for the rest of
01:13:32
your life i hate that other famous baby how dare that baby be rescued i'm i'm the rescued baby no
01:13:40
but she's like 39 all right that's my story that's the best great job that was so awesome
01:13:47
i love that you did that what a great idea thank you i mean i like the disaster story
01:13:52
element of it but it's a happy ending well and like there's this tragic element to it that i i
01:13:59
think it's that again that kind of thing no one talks about stuff like that so it's like we all
01:14:03
know the baby jessica story and we all like a lot of us read about like the trust fund where it's
01:14:08
like that's kind of beautiful but the robert o'donnell's role that he played and then the way
01:14:14
like what a wonderful thing and how much it meant to him obviously but then the way the fame and the
01:14:20
kind of like being in that spotlight and how it can affect you if you are, you know, of a certain
01:14:26
makeup or you just like, obviously no one in that town thought anything like that was going to happen.
01:14:32
No. And they weren't prepared for it and they didn't get, yeah, the attention needed after.
01:14:38
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01:17:13
Are you going to tell me a story? I'm going to tell you a story. It's a little bit legendary, like yours.
01:17:19
Yeah. This is the deaths of Sid and Nancy. No, dude! How have we not done this? Oh my God.
01:17:30
All the times we've done shows in New York and neither of us thought to do this.
01:17:33
It's crazy. Me and my friend Laura Milligan, when we used to get drunk in the 90s,
01:17:38
I think it was with Laura I think we used to sit Sit Like doing that gear Sit It's the best
01:17:48
Sit I remember the movie came out Sid and Nancy came out in 1986 And I remember I must have seen it You know in the 90s at some point Being like this is the most romantic story ever And then now I studying it as an adult I like this is trash It so depressing I remember hearing the quote where he was Sid Bishop said like
01:18:09
sex is boring and stupid. And I was like, oh, no, am I perverted? I think it's great.
01:18:13
I think it's great and exciting. No, no, you're fine. You're not the problem here.
01:18:18
I'm not on heroin. That's it. I think that's the key. Finish the sentence. Sex is boring and stupid
01:18:24
it when you're on heroin. Right. So I got information from a website called History
01:18:30
Collection, People Magazine, Mental Floss, Rolling Stone, a website, the website Independent. And
01:18:36
there's so there's two articles on the Independent. One is written by Joe Summerlad. And the other one,
01:18:41
I swear I looked so hard and could not find who wrote it, but it was from like 93. So maybe they
01:18:47
just didn't have it. But it might have been Joe Summerlad for all I know. A Daily Beast article.
01:18:50
There's a documentary called Who Killed Nancy and then also Wikipedia. Karen, ready?
01:18:55
Yes. Okay, this is Sex Pistols. As you know, they were an English punk rock band.
01:19:00
They formed in London in 1975 and they were responsible for initiating the punk movement
01:19:05
in the UK. It was already going on in New York and the Sex Pistols were like the main thing going
01:19:12
on in London. And they're regarded as one of the most influential bands in the history of punk and music, popular
01:19:18
music. The group originally consisted of John Lydon, a.k.a. Johnny Rotten. He was singing. Steve Jones was on guitar.
01:19:26
Paul Cook on drums. And Glenn Matlock was the bassist. But in early 1977, Glenn Matlock was kicked out of the band or he decided to leave because his mom hated how anti-crown the band was and forced him to quit, which is really adorable.
01:19:44
And so he was... In the name of all that's royal, get out of that band. How dare you.
01:19:49
And just really quick, can we say, if you haven't heard Jonesy's Jukebox, it's one of the best radio shows.
01:19:55
Steve Jones has this radio show that is driving in traffic in Los Angeles over the years I've lived here saved my life.
01:20:03
It's influential. It's so good. Amazing. So Glenn quit the band for mom and was replaced by Simon John Ritchie, a.k.a. Sid Vicious, even though Sid had no idea how to play bass.
01:20:17
okay i really love that i really love and respect the fact that he would get on stage and just and
01:20:24
kind of not know how to do no it's great it's so punk rock yeah it is it doesn't matter yeah so
01:20:31
uh simon john ritchie who i'm going to call sid vicious from now on because it's easier
01:20:35
was born on may 10th 19th oh that's no your birthday is the 11th that's right 1957 in england
01:20:43
And his father flakes out on his mom. Her name is Anne. And then so she remarries the stepfather.
01:20:51
Six months after their marriage, he dies of cancer. No. How sad is that? Like, you've got this second chance and that happens.
01:20:59
So Sid Vicious's mom raises him alone in East London. And by all accounts, Sid's mother, Anne, was not great.
01:21:07
Very problematic. She was heavily involved in drugs as both a user and a trafficker.
01:21:12
And when Sid was a toddler, his mom used him as a drug mule. She'd stuff his clothes with packages of hash and smuggle them from Spain to England.
01:21:21
So lady, not a good start. Not cool. That's really not Marion Cunningham. I thought my mom was bad.
01:21:29
Right. No, your mom's amazing. She killed it. Sex Pistol singer Johnny Rotten said that once he was hanging out at Sid's house on Sid's birthday when they were like friends as young teens.
01:21:39
and Sid's mom gave him, Sid, a bag of heroin as a birthday present. And I think even for punk rockers, Johnny Rotten was like, what the fuck?
01:21:51
He sticks. And then Sid was like, oh, she means well. She just knows that heroin relaxes me.
01:21:56
So it's awful. God dish. Yeah. That's awful. It's so awful. It's not fair. So Sid had first met Johnny Rotten in 1973.
01:22:04
They were both students at this technical college in their later teens. And they had been hanging out in this in this little burgeoning punk scene that was actually pretty small in London.
01:22:15
And it originated in this little clothing shop called Sex that was run by Vivian Westwood.
01:22:21
Yeah. Did you know that? Yeah. And there's an there's an amazing documentary about Vivian Westwood.
01:22:27
If you haven't seen it, it is. I have to watch it. I'll look up the title. It's amazing.
01:22:31
She's so she just she did it in the face of everyone going, this is disgusting. And she would win these awards and everyone in the fashion industry would be mad because they'd all they all wanted everything to look like those weird 90s plain suits.
01:22:44
And she was up there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And she was like, how about a kilt and a tank top?
01:22:50
Yeah. Amazing. So truly. I mean, the fact that they named their clothing store sex just shows you like.
01:22:56
So cool. So it was Vivian Westwood, along with Malcolm McLaren, who becomes a sex pistols manager.
01:23:02
And the clothing store specialized in clothing that define the look of the punk movement.
01:23:07
So Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid, Simon, his friend, nicknames him Sid Vicious because Johnny Rotten had a pet hamster named Sid that he named after Sid Barrett, the founder of Pink Floyd.
01:23:19
And then one day the hamster bit Sid and they yelled about him being vicious. And so now his name is Sid Vicious.
01:23:28
Legendary. Kind of an innocent. Yeah. Innocent beginnings. Right. And actually, I didn't know this, but Sid Vicious was originally a drummer and he was the original drummer for Susie and the Banshees.
01:23:38
Really? Yeah. So we actually could play an instrument. It just wasn't the bass. Even more punk.
01:23:44
Yeah. It turns out they're not interchangeable. So when the Sex Pistols needed a bass player, Johnny Rotten didn't care that he couldn't play.
01:23:53
He brought in his friend Sid Vicious in February of 1977 and Sid Vicious never really learns to play but he had been a big fan of the Sex Pistols He had been at every show And he I think what mattered more for them was that great
01:24:06
punk rock style with the spiked black hair, leather jacket. He wore a shirt that had a swastika on it
01:24:13
as a and he said it was like a political statement as a normalizing the swastika. But you know,
01:24:19
It's England and like two decades Past the bombing of Your town no dude No no so it doesn't matter what
01:24:27
Your intention right doesn't matter what your intention Is it matters what the impact exactly
01:24:31
As we've all learned right so In their on their debut album And only album and never mind the
01:24:37
Bullocks here's the sex pistols Sid Vicious for the recording Was in the hospital with hepatitis
01:24:43
So he was only On one track one song where he plays bass, but even that track has to be dubbed over by
01:24:51
Steve Jones. Despite the success of Nevermind the Bullocks, which is a great album.
01:24:57
Bollocks? Is it Bollocks? You're right. I feel like you're my teacher. I'm clocking you.
01:25:09
No, I like it. I'm trying to be punk and mispronounce things. Mom. Funny, it's Bollocks.
01:25:17
bollocks. Despite the success of Nevermind the Bollocks, the band never records another album,
01:25:24
and they break up after two and a half years of being a band, which is a fact that many people
01:25:29
blame on Sid's new girlfriend, Nancy Spungen. Let's talk about Nancy. Sid. Sid. That's good.
01:25:38
So Nancy Spungen is born in 1958 into an upper middle class Jewish family, which I didn't know,
01:25:44
in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As a young girl, Nancy is super smart, but her mom describes her
01:25:50
as a problem child. She has a lot of issues. She was born with the umbilical cord wrapped around
01:25:55
her neck, which may have caused some injuries. She throws violent tantrums as a kid. She bullies
01:26:01
her siblings. She threatens her babysitter with a pair of scissors. She even attacks a psychiatrist
01:26:07
who was trying to treat her. So she's just really problematic. She's diagnosed with schizophrenia
01:26:13
in her teens, though I don't know how accurate that is. That must be like the early 70s when
01:26:19
those diagnoses and I don't know who diagnosed her if it was her, you know, an actual psychiatrist
01:26:24
or her mom just thought that. So whatever. But she starts using drugs, as a lot of us do,
01:26:30
and graduates early from boarding school at 16. And she moves out on her own. And by 17 is in
01:26:36
New York City. She arrives right as the New York punk scene is blowing up and she makes money
01:26:41
with part-time sex work. So she's totally enamored with the punk scene and all the hot dudes in the bands.
01:26:50
You're 17. And she eventually becomes known as a groupie and she follows bands like the New York Dolls
01:26:56
and the Ramones. And it seems like she's just hanging out in that big CBGB era. I mean, like just the definition of cool.
01:27:04
Exactly. Like she's there. She's in it. But even she is regarded as a loud and obnoxious and unlikable,
01:27:10
which I'd like to say is kind of the most punk rock thing you can do. Flopping. It really is.
01:27:15
You know, so like, yeah, I feel like it's either that people have a problem with that
01:27:19
means you must be really over the top or maybe they're just not punk rock enough.
01:27:24
But she's rejected by other groupies and accepted by the musicians, mainly for her ability to get heroin and supply heroin to them.
01:27:34
So she follows the punk band Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers. They go to London for their tour there.
01:27:39
in 1977. But they tell her to get lost. I think their manager was like, this chick is problematic.
01:27:45
She like just anyone she's around becomes a hot dog addict. Yeah. Which is like, I think they can
01:27:51
do that on their own. And she ends up meeting the sex pistols instead. So when 19 year old Sid
01:27:58
Vicious and 18 year old Nancy Spungin meet, they're inseparable right away. They move in together
01:28:03
really quickly. And in a Daily Beast article, Malcolm McLaren writes that Nancy teaches Sid
01:28:08
all about, quote, sex and drugs and the lifestyle of a New York rocker. And some people think that Sid lost his virginity to Nancy, actually.
01:28:17
Oh, yeah. Because he wasn't in. He liked heroin more than sex. So who knows? Sex is stupid and boring.
01:28:26
A whole lot of people blame Nancy for Sid's heroin addiction. But it seems like his mom might be the bigger issue.
01:28:33
And he was fine before Nancy came along with that. If he was getting it for his birthday, it's her fault.
01:28:40
But I guess like heroin at that time in the London scene wasn't big. And everyone blames Nancy, who to bringing it over to then like introducing it to that scene.
01:28:51
Wow. I know. So in the documentary, Who Killed Nancy? Everyone talks about how Sid was like so smart and sweet and a goofy kid with a great sense of humor.
01:29:00
It's like fun to be around. And he was this young, impressionable dude. But then they go on to tell these forking stories about him and what an awful violent person he was.
01:29:09
But like they tell it lovingly. But he actually tortured and killed cats. There's multiple stories of him doing that.
01:29:16
He would go out looking for fights and go out to shows like looking for fights. He used his belt buckle or a bike chain as a weapon.
01:29:23
After he'd pick a fight with someone at one show, he threw a bottle at a girl and permanently blinded her in one eye.
01:29:29
Jesus Christ. There are stories of him vomiting on groupies and getting into fights at shows and like swinging his base at like the audience, trying to hit them on purpose.
01:29:41
He's like, mommy, mommy, I'm so bad at you. Mommy, please love me. Mommy, mommy.
01:29:46
Yeah. So Johnny, of all those things, purposely throwing up on people is so awful.
01:29:52
I rather take a belt buckle to the cheek than have some puke on me There a story Can I tell you that Like I think it was Joey Ramone went into a bathroom in London to shoot up with Sid Vicious
01:30:05
And there was no water to mix the heroin with. And so Sid took the syringe and in a clunking toilet bowl full of puke.
01:30:14
Used that. Like, absolutely. He was just like one upping everyone who was already trying to one up society.
01:30:21
Fun. Yeah. Luckily, he never met Ozzy. Those behind the music stories where Ozzy was snorting lines of ants and stuff.
01:30:29
Oh, God. But he was friends with Lemmy, which is pretty cool. That is actually rad.
01:30:34
So Johnny Rotten. R.I.P. Lemmy. R.I.P. Johnny Rotten's dad actually witnessed some of this insanity and stated that he felt that they were due to Vicious's insatiable need for attention.
01:30:46
Never met by his mother because she was a drug addict. he said of Sid Vicious quote, if he was sitting here and no one was taking any notice of him,
01:30:54
he'd cut his hand or something to attract attention. You'd have to take your mind off
01:30:58
everything else and look at him. And he was like, he did cut himself a lot, like pretty
01:31:02
severely and just always seemed to like be the center of attention. He sounds like a real flopping cash hole and not a pleasant person at all,
01:31:11
even though everyone's saying how lovely he is. And I think this whole Nancy corrupted him thing
01:31:15
is not legit at all. Not saying she's a great person. Well, it's like he's still an adult.
01:31:21
As bad as his childhood is, he's responsible for himself. Exactly. Very convenient.
01:31:27
I mean, I know, especially if the portrayal of her is accurate, which it seems like it is. Chloe, what's
01:31:35
her name? Webb, I believe. Yes, Chloe Webb. I love her so much. She's so good in that
01:31:39
role. But that, you know, the voice and the whole thing where she didn't give honk, but she's like
01:31:45
she was you know the real deal so i think it's very easy like when a woman like that comes along
01:31:50
a difficult woman it's like that there that's your scapegoat right every everybody well it's
01:31:55
like she's part of that yoko ono and courtney love and her of like you ruined it and it's like
01:32:02
they kind of ruined it themselves already they ruined it right they were they were in there
01:32:06
at those dudes and actually then you also factor in the many instances of domestic violence against
01:32:11
Nancy by Sid. He beat her and left her with a broken nose and a torn ear, among other injuries.
01:32:19
I think it was Malcolm McLaren that said, quote, Sid chose Nancy every bit as much as she chose him.
01:32:26
And in respect of their dangerous, destructive codependency, he and Nancy were ideally suited.
01:32:31
So, you know, they kind of were perfect together in that way. Yeah. And everyone said that they that she filled a void and he filled a void in her,
01:32:41
that the other one needed. Nancy took care of Sid in a lot of ways. And actually,
01:32:45
there's old video footage. If you go on YouTube and put in Sid and Nancy interview, there's that
01:32:51
interview from them in a bed where she's just trying to get Sid to wake up. He's nodding off
01:32:57
and talking to the end. I'm like, can I make you coffee? Do you need coffee? You know, right.
01:33:05
Over the next few months, as the sex pistols become huge and they're all over the tabloids
01:33:10
for their insane behavior and this anti-crown songs. Sid and Nancy are also like famous and are all over the press for their heroin-fueled
01:33:19
antics. And the press labels Spungen as nauseating Nancy. They love to do those stupid nicknames.
01:33:27
They really do. Because the public displays a verbal abuse and the shocking behavior.
01:33:33
And he does everything she wants without question. And once she said to him, push that groupie down the stairs and he pushed her down the stairs.
01:33:42
Jesus Christ. So things are going. Devil children. That's right. And the other members of the Sex Pistols collecting hate Nancy so much that they ban her from their upcoming 1978 U.S. tour.
01:33:54
And in fact, their manager had already tried to get Nancy kidnapped and sent back to New York City unsuccessfully.
01:34:03
Yeah. Their tour manager told People Magazine that Sid began to dislike everything except for heroin and Nancy.
01:34:11
But there was already a rift growing in the band between the manager and Johnny Rotten.
01:34:16
So Sid Vicious's behavior only made things worse. And it just seems like Nancy's presence in Sid's life sped up the demise of the band, but wasn't the catalyst.
01:34:25
It doesn't seem like Johnny Rotten was a happy peach to work with either. Not at all.
01:34:29
But at least he was trying to have a real band and take the success they were earning with their the whole, you know, directive.
01:34:37
It was a great idea and it was cool. And it was like and then it's just like someone that's just like hamster bent on ruining just tripping and falling over the entire thing.
01:34:47
Yeah. And just making a mess. Just ruining it. So the Sex Pistols break up after their last U.S. performance in San Francisco in January
01:34:55
of 78. And then Sid and Nancy go to New York City and move into the historic Hotel Chelsea in
01:35:01
New York City. I said New York City. It's known for how it's like a historic landmark now.
01:35:06
I felt that in my chest. It was good, huh? I felt it in my chest and I felt it in your chest, too.
01:35:14
Through the wires. Look, I'm channeling punk rock. So, of course, the Hotel Chelsea is famous, you know, Jimmy Button, Bob Dylan and Mark Twain and Stanley.
01:35:26
Everyone famous ever stayed there. And Sid and Nancy move into room 100 and register as Mr. and Mrs. John Simon Ritchie.
01:35:36
So they continue their crazy lifestyle, crazy drug abuse, partying, these raging arguments, domestic violence, and all sorts of shady characters are coming in and out of their room.
01:35:48
And they're there for three months. And it's just a chaotic time. So at this point, they had been gathered 21 months.
01:35:57
And on the night of October 11th, 1978, they throw a party and when at the party, as any good boyfriend slash host of the party does, Sid takes at least 30 Tunol tablets, Tunol tablets.
01:36:14
Never heard of it. It's a strong barbiturate and he takes 30 of them. So he's attempting suicide at the party?
01:36:22
He's just having a laugh. Okay. Yeah. And it knocks him out, obviously. So that sounds fun.
01:36:30
And the following morning at 730, the hotel guests start to report the sound of a woman groaning from room 100.
01:36:37
And then at 10 a.m., Sid calls down to the reception and tells them that he needs help.
01:36:42
And when staff gets up there, they find Nancy's lifeless body under the bathroom sink in the room.
01:36:49
And she has a single stab wound in her stomach. And so at just 20 years old, Nancy Spungen is dead.
01:36:56
Wow. They did all of that. It's crazy. I didn't realize they'd only been together for two years.
01:37:02
Yeah. I always thought, like, having watched the movie, I thought it was years and years.
01:37:07
That's crazy. So the staff at the hotel remembers Sid being, like, he was dazed.
01:37:12
He was wandering the hall. He was wailing about how he had killed her. And during his initial interview, he confesses and says, I did it because I'm a dirty dog.
01:37:22
So he confesses, but he's arrested and charged with second degree murder. But once he's arrested, he retracts his confession saying he was asleep at the time.
01:37:33
And he woke up and found her dead. And he said that maybe Nancy rolled over onto the knife when she was in bed and accidentally stabbed herself.
01:37:42
Nope. Unlikely. Don't think so. Don't think so. No, no, no. Personal opinion. No.
01:37:47
So in the following days, Sid is released on $25,000 bail supplied by Virgin Records, which is the band.
01:37:56
Shampoo Label Or it's his label At the time And a little while later His bail is revoked
01:38:02
After he assaults Patty Smith's brother Todd Smith With a broken Heineken bottle
01:38:08
In a bar Wow Because he was hitting on This dude Todd's girlfriend And he And so the guy
01:38:14
Todd comes up And is like Please don't hit on my girlfriend Or whatever And he Hits him in the face
01:38:18
With a bottle And like slashes his face So he's So Sid Vicious Is sent to Rikers
01:38:23
To go through Detoxification program and get clean. But unfortunately, that doesn't happen because while he's there, his mother
01:38:32
and Beverly smuggles in her vagina drugs to Sid. Lady, lady, lady, lady. So Sid's released after
01:38:43
55 days on $10,000 bail. And he's and so then his mom and some friends want to throw him a freedom
01:38:51
party a couple days later. Yeah. So on February 1st, 1979, Sid and his friends and mom are having
01:39:01
a party at the Greenwich Village apartment of Sid's new girlfriend, Michelle, and his mother,
01:39:06
Anne, get some drugs for him for the evening. And Sid takes the drugs, but he thinks they're too,
01:39:13
the heroin, but he thinks it's too weak. So he asks another friend at the party to get him some
01:39:17
more. And his friend goes out and buys some heroin from people he's never bought heroin
01:39:22
from before. And so the heroin is 98% pure, which is not what you normally get on the street and is
01:39:30
way too pure for human consumption. But Sid takes it and his friend takes him himself and almost
01:39:36
overdoses and is like, be careful, this is really strong. But then when the party breaks up and
01:39:41
his friend leaves him with Sid with his mother and the heroin and shortly after it seems like Sid kind of
01:39:50
sneaks some heroin and takes more and in the morning his mother goes to wake him up and finds him dead
01:39:56
from an overdose he is 21 years old and it's just 4 months after Nancy's death quite bad
01:40:05
I mean yeah 21 and 20 also okay go ahead no go ahead it just how come we had a girlfriend
01:40:16
immediately after I think they met at Rikers in like rehab or something Jesus Christ
01:40:22
I met my first moving along real boyfriend in rehab but not for heroin thank God
01:40:30
well also I mean that's kind of a good place in some ways because I guess you're all sitting
01:40:34
in a circle yeah being being super real and authentic we did stopped doing meth together. So nice. I guess it worked. But with Sid's death,
01:40:42
the police closed the case on Nancy, on Nancy's death, and no further investigation is ever done.
01:40:48
And over the years, people have debated about Nancy's murder and whether or not Sid actually
01:40:52
killed her. And there's all these theories in my estimation. And I think they kind of show this in
01:40:57
the movie. You know, he gets he's high, he gets annoyed with her, he stabs her, he goes back to
01:41:03
sleep. That's probably what happened. But there is a possibility that he didn't kill her. And
01:41:10
because the amount of drugs he was on, maybe he couldn't have woken up. And there's other
01:41:15
suspects. There's drug dealers like in and out of the room the night before. And the police did say
01:41:21
that they had been robbed of $1,500. So but that could happen anyway. Yeah. But I mean, and people
01:41:30
hated her enough to have her kidnapped to get away from them. I mean, like, it's not like she was like, beloved by all, beloved by all.
01:41:40
Exactly. It's like, God, there must have been so many suspects. That's right. But the police and the police discovered fingerprints belonging to six different people who had
01:41:48
criminal records, but they never interviewed any of them. And none of the visitors from the night before were ever interviewed The murder weapon had also been wiped down and cleaned Oh and no blood or fingerprints were found on it So that that a weird one right Sounds like the cops were like
01:42:08
two junkies killed each or a junkie killed another junkie. And it's like, we're not doing the
01:42:13
paperwork. Right. But if he yeah, if he had like, in the middle of, you know, being passed out,
01:42:19
stabbed her, I don't think he would have had the wherewithal to wipe or maybe he did it right
01:42:22
before he called the cops. Seems unlikely, but yeah. Yeah. No. And then if she had done it,
01:42:29
which a lot of people think that they did, why would she how and why would she wipe it,
01:42:34
wipe off the weapon that she stabbed herself? Yeah. And it is true that she had done like a,
01:42:42
you know, suicide attempt before just to get his attention. So it's not totally out of the realm
01:42:49
of possibility. And then there's also people who think that they had a suicide pact together.
01:42:54
When after Sid's death, his mom found a handwritten note in Sid's leather jacket reading,
01:43:00
we had a death pact and I have to keep my half of the bargain. Please bury me next to my baby.
01:43:06
Bury me in my leather jacket, jeans and motorcycle boots. Goodbye. Wow. So maybe he overdosed on purpose. Who knows? And it's also possible that Nancy, yeah,
01:43:17
killed herself on accident because she was, you know, she was also they were both also known to
01:43:21
self mutilate. And so after finding that note, Anne contacts Nancy's parents and asked if Sid
01:43:28
could be buried next to Nancy. And they're like, heck, no, first of all, she's being buried in a
01:43:34
Jewish cemetery. And second of all, like, we think he is part of the reason she's, you know,
01:43:38
of course, they were like, no, but Anne does climb over the fence of the cemetery and scatters
01:43:45
some of Sid's ashes on Nancy's grave. Wow. What a mother. She did it. She did it. She really did it.
01:43:55
So the biopic Sid and Nancy from 1986. Amazing movie. Amazing. Directed by Alex Cox, who did Repo Man.
01:44:02
Did you know that? Of course you did. So Sid is played by Gary Oldman. And Nancy's played by
01:44:09
Chloe Webb. Sid. And also, of course, musician Courtney Love was 22 when it came out and she was like, this
01:44:19
is the role I'm meant to play. Unfortunately, she didn't get the role, but she does play a smaller part
01:44:25
as one of Nancy's friends. Yeah, she's I mean, she's a standout though. That's the thing about Courtney Love.
01:44:31
I remember watching that movie and it's like, oh no, what's happening here? Like you can't take your eyes off.
01:44:36
She never does anything half handshake. No, no, sure. Yeah, it's the real deal. So Sid's mother and
01:44:42
takes her own life in 1996 at 63 years old. And The Guardian sums up Sid and Nancy's tragedy as Romeo and Juliet with syringes.
01:44:54
And there is a poem that Sid wrote for Nancy that goes, you were my little baby girl,
01:45:01
and I knew all your fears, such joy to hold you in my arms and kiss away your tears. But now you're
01:45:08
gone. There's only pain and nothing I can do. And I don't want to live this life if I can't live for
01:45:13
you. So there might have been actual like real love there between the two of them and finally
01:45:18
having someone who understood the other. Yep. But you can't add heroin into the mix.
01:45:25
Yeah. I mean, that's going to wreck it. Yeah, for sure. So music critic Lester Bangs,
01:45:30
legendary after Nancy's death, said, quote, Sid and Nancy were possibly two of the most
01:45:35
pathologically tortured humans on the face of the earth. And that is the deaths of Sid,
01:45:42
vicious and nancy spongen wow amazing great job thank you everyone go watch sit and nancy it's it's so good gary old man it's like gary oldman's like
01:45:58
breakout role right yeah he's so good he was in a he was in a a really good movie right before
01:46:05
i think before that it was british that was about a british playwright who was gay
01:46:10
now I can't remember what that was called it was so good. Do you remember that movie?
01:46:14
Yeah, I saw it today in one of the articles but I can't remember what it was Is the word dog in the title?
01:46:20
I can't remember. Let's see. It's really good. Very 90s. In Sid and Nancy Sid's mom gave Gary Oldman
01:46:28
when he went to talk to her gave him the actual chain and lock that Sid wore to wear in the movie
01:46:34
so it's the real one there. Oh wow. That's kind of cool. Yeah. God, that mom, man. What did you talk about? She's the third most tortured soul on the planet.
01:46:44
That's right. I mean, pathologically, whatever. God, it's just so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy. And it's so like, oh, you didn't stand a chance.
01:46:56
No. Little kid like you didn't have a shot at a normal life. And you know what sucks is that the music, I think that a lot of people who had really shabby childhoods, they do go into music and it is their escape.
01:47:10
It is the release. It's the thing that brings them somewhere else. Yeah. And he had the opportunity.
01:47:16
Clearly he could play instruments. He had a musical like, you know, talent. But rotten.
01:47:23
Heroin. Heroin ruins everything. And there is this idea, too, like if he had gone to Rikers and actually tried to get sober, maybe his life would have taken a total different, you know, trajectory.
01:47:35
And maybe Nancy's life, if, you know, if she had had a chance to go home and, you know, recover a little and get real psychiatric help, then maybe her life could have been way different.
01:47:44
I bet she would have been pretty flipping awesome. Yeah. But the thing that makes it so dark is like he couldn't do that because his own mom was like sabotaging.
01:47:53
Exactly. That sucks so much Oh I looked up the that Vivian Westwood documentary is called Westwood colon punk icon activist It from 2018 Cool It really mind blowing because I my hilarious friend Luke loves Vivian Westwood so much And he basically made me watch that And I didn know I knew about her you know very tangentially and kind of like her cool style but not details Right
01:48:19
And like she she really she was a driving force of the actual style of that like late 70s.
01:48:26
Which is such a huge part of it can almost say that one wouldn't exist without the other in a way.
01:48:31
And they say, you know, like all those styles of like having safety pins or wearing like, you know, the clothes they wore.
01:48:38
It was part of it was because of the the there was really bad socioeconomic. It was like Thatcher's England at that time.
01:48:46
And so they would have like the garbage men would go on strike. And then so there was just garbage piled in the streets.
01:48:52
So when the teenagers would walk from like their house to a club there and I can't remember this if this might be in Sid and Nancy or it might be in a documentary about that time.
01:49:02
They would just pick up garbage bags and put them on. You know what I mean? Because it was just like garbage was everywhere.
01:49:08
It was like people were poor. There were strikes all the time. There's a lot of labor issues.
01:49:12
There was like there was so much. It was like a kind of a depression Yeah and a tension that was like very much like
01:49:19
Class issues and that's Why you know that whole Thing of like God save the queen and basically
01:49:25
Saying flop you royals It took off because it was like We're all down here in the muck
01:49:31
And literally in piles of garbage And you're in your tower Like saying pay more taxes
01:49:37
You know rough stuff Alright Karen I want to do Friday hooray Yes, I love it. All right. Do you want me to go first? Sure. This starts Friday. Hey, MFM fam. During the COVID-19 quarantine, I've been feeling hopeless and helpless as I'm not an essential worker nor a health care worker. And I'm horrible with a needle and thread. I felt there was something more I could be doing to contribute to supporting our community during this time.
01:50:05
My boyfriend and I took to walking around our community with trash bags and my old wagon, collecting litter from parks and roadsides.
01:50:14
After just one weekend, we collected eight contractor trash bags filled to the brim.
01:50:19
If I can't fight the virus directly, at least I can fight pollution. Thanks for all you do.
01:50:24
Keep killing the game and stay healthy for all our sake. Shelby in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
01:50:30
That's awesome, Shelby. That's duckling. Beautiful and important. It's important for your mental health.
01:50:37
And it's so cool that you found something to do, but you're helping your community.
01:50:41
And that's duckling. Beautiful. It's really beautiful. That's so smart. This one is from Arangulant something.
01:50:49
OK. Hashtag promo code murder. My French hooray is for the staff at St. Mary's Hospital in Decatur, Illinois.
01:50:56
I went into their ER late Tuesday night with intense stomach pain and ended up needing an emergency appendectomy.
01:51:05
Oh, so scary. So scary. Oh, my God. Due to COVID-19, my husband was not allowed to be with me and I had to go through the whole thing alone.
01:51:15
Every single nurse, doctor and staff member was gentle, friendly and comforting.
01:51:19
I had never had surgery before, so it was especially scary. Everything went well and I'm back home recovering.
01:51:26
Oh, thank God. Oh my God. How terrifying. So terrifying. I'm so glad that went well.
01:51:32
Yeah. What a bummer to be like, I really don't want to go to the hospital. I have to go.
01:51:36
Yeah. And I have to go. Yeah. Okay. This is from blood splatter analyst and it's Anna is in all caps.
01:51:42
So I'm assuming this person's name is Anna. Hi, my fabulous hooray. Is that down on my street, a little girl is always on her porch and every day she does
01:51:51
something special for people walking by. She has her violin practices out there Makes signs, yells out funny jokes, etc
01:52:00
She brings me joy every time I pass her And she loves when I say something back to her
01:52:05
Stay home and safe, but make sure you still interact with others somehow Anna That's so cute
01:52:12
That is very cute Vince and I sit out front of our garage now in our lawn chairs
01:52:17
And say hello to everyone walking by And silently judge them if they're not wearing masks
01:52:23
But, you know, so true. This is from Science of Myself says my friendly hooray for the week.
01:52:31
I work at a domestic violence shelter in central Texas. And this week our staff received a cookie delivery.
01:52:38
It was from Brene Brown. What? And then then there's a smiley face emoji, a cookie emoji and a heart emoji.
01:52:45
How incredible. I didn't know this when I talked about Brene Brown at the top of the show.
01:52:50
I hadn't read this yet. but what that's the whole story yeah they received a cookie delivery at their domestic
01:52:57
violence shelter in central texas and it was from brene brown brunch yes brene brown i mean
01:53:02
just class act just doing it right class oh that's beautiful yeah this one is from ashley ann ashley ann okay i'm a first-time mom and my two-month-old baby girl
01:53:20
Cannot sleep for more than 15 minutes By herself alone in the bedroom She has to be sleeping right next to me
01:53:26
Or my husband or one of us has to Hold her she will sleep for hours This way but this morning
01:53:32
After I fed her I put her back down In the bedroom for a nap and she slept For all caps two and a half
01:53:38
Hours alone My husband and I were able to make Ourselves breakfast and he worked on his
01:53:44
Laptop while I enjoyed some me Time with a cup of coffee and a few chapters of the stranger beside me.
01:53:51
Hell yeah. Also, I only peeked in on her once to make sure she was still breathing which is a major progress which is major progress because I wanted to check in again like 80 more times but I talked myself down Baby steps literally
01:54:06
French hooray. For me and my baby girl, SSDGM, Ashley Ann. Good job, Ashley Ann.
01:54:12
You know, my mom used to tell the story when she had my sister, her first baby, she would
01:54:17
go in every 15 minutes with a mirror. Yeah. She wanted to make sure Laura was still breathing.
01:54:23
I bet. It's just terrifying. How could you not? Totally. OK, here's my last one.
01:54:29
This is from Mushroom Beast. My hashtag fun is that my mom, Linda, gave me a thumbs up yesterday.
01:54:39
My mom had a stroke in February and it was the scariest day I've ever experienced.
01:54:43
She was totally healthy, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink. And one Sunday morning, she just had a stroke.
01:54:49
She was paralyzed down her left side for a while And with intense physiotherapy Her movement is coming back
01:54:56
And we kept joking that when she could give me a thumbs up We'd celebrate Well yesterday I came downstairs
01:55:01
And she was sitting grinning at me with her thumb up She's the strongest woman I know
01:55:07
And she has just been so determined and focused in her recovery So French hooray
01:55:12
And thumbs up Yes Oh my god It's crazy the little things you focus on and that matter once everything is real.
01:55:24
Yeah, when you get that perspective of like, listen, this is the thing that it gives us a lot of stress and a lot of panicky feelings.
01:55:33
But there is this advantage to looking at life like that could happen to you or you could catch the cerebral disease or something.
01:55:41
That this is not we are lucky Every moment that we have with our health Is a gift and we should treat
01:55:47
Ourselves like it's a gift and we should Treat other people like it's a gift And we should all go out onto our
01:55:53
Symbolic porches with our Symbolic violins and play Them for other people and Be nice to your neighbors and wave to
01:56:01
People and like get in the Game while you still can it's important I love that it's so true
01:56:07
It's so true I really really Hope that we come out of this whenever we come out of it a little kinder everyone is a little more easy on everyone else and a little
01:56:19
kinder well i think already a lot of us and it's only been about two months really of starting to
01:56:27
appreciate the like other human beings and the the potential connection and the connections that we
01:56:33
have and the things that we miss and like that all those things like that the screen doesn't give it
01:56:38
to you. And like the internet does not give it to you. And you can only really get it from people
01:56:43
in front of you. And and so yeah, hopefully, that's something that doesn't just immediately
01:56:48
evaporate the second we're all like, Whoa, it's over. I can go go baseball game or whatever.
01:56:55
Yeah, for sure. And you know, thanks all of you for listening. Everyone is people say such nice
01:57:01
things to us online about, you know, continuing to do this podcast. For me, it's a gift to get to
01:57:08
What a miracle that this, you know, that we get to do that. And we have these people that care so much and listen and give a splash.
01:57:15
I mean, like, it's really nice. Yeah, it's really, really, it's really a gift. So thank you guys.
01:57:21
Thank you. We're so incredibly lucky and grateful for you guys. Send your big feelings.
01:57:26
Just hashtag them and we'll read them next week. Maybe. Yeah, big or small, whatever, whatever's going on with you.
01:57:33
It's, it's very, it's, it's very good for your mental health to keep a gratitude list.
01:57:38
And so try to try to do it and try to try to find those moments so that you can big feelings along with us.
01:57:46
And in the meantime, stay saved and do God's mission. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
01:57:54
Yeah. This has been an Exactly Right production. Our producer is Alejandra Keck.
01:58:06
Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton. This episode was edited by Liana Squilacci.
01:58:11
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.
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