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00:01:54
Own the dream. My favorite murder Hello. Hello. And welcome to My Favorite Murder.
00:02:18
That's Georgia Hardstart. That's Karen Kilgariff. This is a podcast. That is Karen speaking.
00:02:25
This is me speaking. That's Georgia speaking. this is me speaking. I know you keep messing us up and you're like, which one's which?
00:02:33
From the beginning of this podcast, people have so strongly been like, I could have sworn that
00:02:39
one was you where it's like, fucking why? And also what are you talking about? I don't understand.
00:02:45
I feel like my voice matches my face and I feel like your voice matches your eyebrows and cheekbones
00:02:51
pretty well. You know what I mean? You're saying sharp. I hear it. sharp and like clean and radio and determined. Where mine's a little more like,
00:03:03
like, I have bangs. I have dimples. Where is she going today? You know, why is she wearing that?
00:03:11
I think that's made for a grandma or a child. That kind of thing. Do you know that there was just an article in some somewhere that was about the multi
00:03:21
million dollar industry of making clothes for women to dress like children. And you were the
00:03:27
first person I thought of where I'm like, not children, but like, it's like the 60s teenager
00:03:32
look that was so cool at the time, the Mary Quant look or whatever. That's like, yeah,
00:03:39
people still want that style. I mean, me in high school, skinny as a rail, going to thrift stores,
00:03:45
heading straight to the children's, the vintage children's section. Yeah. And just being like,
00:03:49
yep. I mean, that does not happen anymore and could not happen. I would like Hulk rip open
00:03:54
those precious garments. But you know, one of the greatest live show moments that we've ever had
00:04:01
was you ripping the back off out of your own dress just by breathing out hard. Yeah, I didn't
00:04:07
rip it open with my hands. I went, you ripped it open with sheer will. And you had the microphone
00:04:14
up against it. So the opening was loud. I mean, I think that for the people in the audience that day,
00:04:22
night, evening, it was a do it, do it, do it, do it, of let's do this thing. You think that was a feminist moment for me too? I mean, it could have been, it's like,
00:04:34
I need it. It's basically saying let's bust out of these constraints of society and do what we
00:04:40
fucking want for once. That's right. I would love if I would wear clothes and could also breathe at
00:04:45
the same time. Patriarchy. I don't know about you. Imagine if I made choices that were comfortable
00:04:51
for me first and didn't consider others. Right. Imagine if my real waist size was okay. Yeah.
00:04:58
Imagine that. And then here we are in 2023. Is that a time that's coming? Feels like it to me.
00:05:05
I do think that like shapewear is like kind of on the outs. People are like not a big fan of it.
00:05:13
Then I take my shirt off and I'm wearing a full skims, skims under. You also can't see me from the boobs down that I'm just sitting like with like a potato.
00:05:25
With a little, the little tutu on. Yeah. Yeah. Because who truly in this economy, people are going to fucking worry about shapewear.
00:05:34
Go to hell. Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm fine with them. Honestly, I have them myself, but I know that it's like,
00:05:39
we're supposed to be appreciating our lovely bodies. The patriarchy demands it that we start
00:05:45
appreciating our body. There's a whole fucking, there's a whole new rules. Yeah. The new rules,
00:05:49
you have to spend money on liking your body instead of spending money on not liking your body.
00:05:54
Oh capitalism Gross How about we stay home and watch TV and don think about our body I was going to say speaking of TV but then I was going to tell you about the Kiss show I went to the other day
00:06:05
Why don't you? I want to hear about that. So Vince and I went last week to see Kiss at the Hollywood Bowl.
00:06:13
I had never seen them before. Vince was, and I normally wouldn't if Vince was like, I really think you'll like it.
00:06:17
Like it's a good show, you know? Yep. And it was, and it was really fun. But I guess, okay, I went to the bathroom with Vince.
00:06:24
I come out. Kiss is playing. Yes. I saw an actor, one that I didn't think I'd lose my shit over seeing this person.
00:06:32
And I kind of got like shaky and sweaty because it's a childhood thing. Oh, oh, oh, oh.
00:06:37
And we just talked about him recently on a minisode. Your childhood is different than my childhood.
00:06:42
I always forget that. It was my crush in elementary school, like my actor crush that I got to see in person
00:06:51
and he blew me off so hard. Okay. and can you give me was he he was on tv he was in movies he was in movies he was like one of the
00:07:03
darlings okay okay he's in a band now pretty troubled pretty troubled oh cory feldman that's
00:07:10
right you saw cory feldman in real life i saw cory feldman ben said don't look over there but cory
00:07:15
feldman's over there and i was like oh my god so immediately like we go in this little store where
00:07:18
he's going in to get like snacks or whatever. And I'm like buying something and he's like asking for
00:07:24
a lighter in a really intense way to everyone. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I never do this.
00:07:30
Can I get a photo with you? Like, cause he really was my like childhood love and like being Jewish
00:07:36
too. It was like, oh, there's a Jewish actor who's like beloved and heartthrob, which doesn't
00:07:42
happen often, you know, or didn't then. And he said, do you have a lighter? And I said, no.
00:07:46
and he just walked away. You were like, but I just told you a story about my heart.
00:07:58
I didn't tell him that much, but he definitely was just not interested in hearing it anyway.
00:08:02
Oh my God. It was such a moment and it was embarrassing. But also don't you feel like that's, you got a true Corey Feldman moment?
00:08:11
I did. I did. I do. I mean, if he had been like, absolutely get over here. What's your name? You'd have been
00:08:16
like, wait, what? That's weird. No, I would have been like, what a nice guy. What a down to earth
00:08:20
nice guy. Not someone who yells, do you have a lighter in my face? And then walks away.
00:08:24
Yes, but we know that Corey's, the Corey's both went through so much shit. He is, he's been through
00:08:32
like, he's unsupervised child actor in the eighties. He has been through the worst of it.
00:08:39
And now he's just trying to like, enjoy himself. And everywhere he goes, he either gets people
00:08:44
who are kind of like, oh, it's Corey Feldman. Like it's a joke. Or he has girls that are like,
00:08:50
wait, have a moment with me. And he's like, I just need to smoke these new ports before
00:08:55
Kiss starts. He had so much vinyl on too. He like made noise when he walked. It was pretty
00:09:01
impressive. Yeah. Yeah. What's up with you? Okay. I'm changing this. I'm like sweating,
00:09:10
thinking about it right now. Oh, well, also, what a vulnerable kind of like you said it out loud and
00:09:16
maybe in front of the employee or whatever, like there's witnesses. And you were just like, hey,
00:09:21
like, I'm trying to make you feel great. Yeah. Big fan. No. And he said, no, thanks. Yeah. Fair
00:09:27
enough. That's why you shouldn't wear a corset for men anymore. I'm just saying. I think he had
00:09:33
one on. He can do what he wants. That's a different fight. Let's see what is going on with me for
00:09:39
God's sake. Well, I just finished a book and this is a book I've been trying to talk about
00:09:47
or wanting to talk about every time you've been like, I just finished a book I love. And I'm like,
00:09:52
oh, pretty soon I'll be done with that book. But of course I just am the slowest reader and just
00:09:58
an in-bed nighttime reader. So I just, I'm real casual about it. But if you read My Year of Rest
00:10:05
and Relaxation by Otessa Moshfeg. Yes. Then this book, I just got it because I was like,
00:10:12
oh my God, she's such a great writer. So I just bought this and it's called Lapvona.
00:10:17
And there's the cover. It's got what looks to me like a dead lamb on the cover. It does.
00:10:24
Oh, it's really like menacing. Yes. And it is basically the story of a village. She never says
00:10:30
what year it is. And it's just everything that happens in this village and then in the king or
00:10:35
prince who lives nearby. And it is so good and so real. The other reason it took me so long to read
00:10:42
it is because it was just like, she would describe things and I would get a stomachache because it
00:10:46
was like how gross this one thing was. Is it like old time year where it's like, there's like
00:10:50
outhouses and cooking things is real gross. And I think it's pre outhouse era. I think it was
00:10:56
supposed to be in like the 500. I don't really know. Yeah. Maybe, maybe I'm supposed to know
00:11:03
if there's a, if there's a description. Maybe it's in the first line of the description.
00:11:07
Yeah. Maybe they're like, it's crucial that, you know, this is 1208 AD or whatever,
00:11:12
but I didn't pay attention. Anyway, I loved it. I just, I love obviously reading great reading,
00:11:18
but like I go and read sentences again. Cause I'm like, how did you do that? Like,
00:11:22
I know. How did you just do that and put it on the page? It's great. It's so unfair.
00:11:27
Do you ever read a book? You're like, that's the one I wish I had written. I wish I'd written that.
00:11:31
It's so frustrating. Yes. Like, oh, you can just do that? I didn't know. Yeah. I think about like, they did it, but then they edited it.
00:11:39
So there was more of this. And there was like, even like, maybe less clean decisions, but there would have been more on the page.
00:11:49
I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. We wrote a book Hey did you see it came out in Vietnamese I think Oh our book Yeah I was like Labvona did No Stay Sexy and Don Get Murdered just came out in Vietnamese And the cover is really cool too It pretty exciting The cover
00:12:06
very cool. Yeah. It's creepy. It's cool. It's great. So grab a copy of our Vietnamese edition of.
00:12:14
If you're over there, you can, and you can read Vietnamese, which we assume if you live there.
00:12:19
Sure. Sure. Or maybe, could there be a person that's living over there just listening to
00:12:24
podcasts and basically surviving in a bubble of unlearned language. Definitely. An expat.
00:12:31
I think they're called expats. Let's talk through a bunch of the different things that could be happening in the world
00:12:35
right now. Could there be a baker? Let's say it's the 1500s and there's a baker and her name is?
00:12:48
Maureen. Maureen. She invents the bicycle. That's right. She loves podcasts. Literally, there are people who this is the first time they've listened to this podcast
00:12:57
and they're like, I don't get why people like it. And I'm out. We get you. We get it.
00:13:02
We're on your side. We're on your side. We've been asking the same question for almost eight years.
00:13:08
Hey, we're trying to roll with it, ma'am. Maureen. Maureen, goddammit. Maureen the baker.
00:13:14
Here's something fun. So the last episode, I covered the story, the very unfortunate body snatching story
00:13:22
of Clara Loper. And we actually got an email from a listener. Do you want to hear it?
00:13:30
Always. Yes. It's about that. And the subject line is med school anatomy lab. And then it says heartfelt
00:13:36
update with a smiley face. Hi, Karen, Georgia Pets and MFM crew. I just finished listening
00:13:42
to episode 400 and then in parentheses, it says, whoa. And I thought I'd let you all know
00:13:48
how anatomy lab at my med school went. I went to Crichton University in Omaha, Nebraska.
00:13:54
From 2015 to 2019, we had about 150 students in my class and anatomy lab groups of five or so.
00:14:01
So we had quite a few donors to help us learn. We didn't get to know their real names, but we did
00:14:07
learn their ages and cause of death. My group named our guy, Larry. It was interesting learning
00:14:13
about him as we went along, like he had gotten a hip replacement we didn't know about until we got
00:14:19
there. Wow. The vast majority of the donors had specifically asked for their bodies to be donated
00:14:25
to Crichton, and our professors made sure to impress upon us the importance of their donation.
00:14:31
It was all very respectful always. The cool thing I wanted to tell you about is after our semester
00:14:36
of Anatomy Lab, we had a ceremony honoring all of our donors. The families of those who donated
00:14:43
were invited and the Anatomy group got to meet them and talk about the actual life of our donors.
00:14:50
It was incredible meeting the kids and grandkids of Larry. Learning about his life and why he wanted
00:14:55
to donate really helped us further appreciate the gift he had given us. My Anatomy group is now made
00:15:01
of a pediatrician, in parentheses, me, a family med doc, a surgeon, and a neurologist, all who
00:15:08
wouldn't be here today without the selfless donation made by Larry and his family. Anyways,
00:15:14
I thought I'd give a little insight on the updates since grave robbing went out of fashion,
00:15:19
stay sexy, and donate life, Becca, she, her. Oh my God, Becca, that is incredible. Thank you. I'm
00:15:26
just thinking about that hip replacement where it's like, yeah, you have to go in there and
00:15:30
really figure out what's going on. That's fascinating. Well, and also what a great
00:15:34
update to basically say, hey, we've updated humanity since your story. And this is how we
00:15:40
actually do it now. Like, I love that. Yeah. And it's so cool that there's so many different
00:15:46
professions in their little group, because everyone needs to know that stuff. So I guess
00:15:51
we're supposed to donate our bodies to our alma maters, which so Los Angeles City College,
00:15:56
get ready. Get ready for me. Yep. Even though I dropped out. Get ready for you. They're like,
00:16:02
we don't have this person on file. We don't know why she donated her body here. She actually needs
00:16:06
to retake algebra still. Sorry. We won't take her body until she passes. She owes us $250.
00:16:13
Thanks, Becca. That was awesome. Very cool. That was genuinely a great update. It was. I love that.
00:16:18
If you ever have a connection to a story, send it in. We'd love to hear it. Absolutely. Should
00:16:22
We do a little ERM network news. Let's do it. Oh, network news. That's a good name for it.
00:16:28
Oh, look at that. So Millie and Danielle, hosts of I Saw What You Did, they usually try and keep the exact
00:16:34
theme of their episodes a secret, but sometimes we can't help but sense a connection.
00:16:38
And this week's double feature includes The Lion in Winter from 1968 and On Golden Pond
00:16:45
from 1981, both of which happen to star the legendary Catherine Hepburn. I Saw What You Did comes out every Tuesday.
00:16:53
So don't forget to subscribe. So you have lots of suggested viewing all winter long.
00:16:57
I'm reading this piece of paper along with Georgia. And I still wanted to yell Catherine Hepburn the second that I saw on Golden Pond.
00:17:04
And I made the connection before I read down further. I love it. Something deeply wrong with me.
00:17:09
Okay. Over on Ghosted by Roz Hernandez. Roz is joined by comedian Megan Gailey to talk about spooky paranormal things.
00:17:16
Megan co-hosts the podcast, I Love My Kid, But, with banana boy Kurt Braunler. And on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul wrap up a two-part series on the murder of Vera Page,
00:17:29
a London girl who was killed in 1931. Okay, so because these episodes get recorded a little bit early,
00:17:36
and we don't really know what's happening in the future, but if all goes well, the new MFM merch store is firing on all cylinders.
00:17:42
So please go look at it. We have the cutest new artwork on our sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags.
00:17:48
There's even a new ornament for the holidays. And the plan is so the person who wrote this paragraph is also the person in charge of the new merch store You can tell because she literally like don fire me if this doesn happen I think it already happened I think we good Erin you fired
00:18:05
The plan is for everything to ship by early December. So you can buy the Murderino in your life, some Christmas gifts on there.
00:18:12
And we'll be working hard to ensure that your items are received in time for any winter
00:18:16
festivity you might be celebrating. So head over to MyFavoriteMurder.com and check out those goods, please.
00:18:22
That's right. And a quick little update. If you listen to My Favorite Murder on the Apple Podcast app, there are a few changes
00:18:29
with the new iOS 17 update that you need to pay attention to, please. So Apple is now pausing downloads on podcasts if your phone is running out of storage or
00:18:40
if you haven't listened in a while. So be sure that there's available space so you can continue to receive weekly episodes
00:18:47
automatically downloaded and make sure that you listen regularly so you don't miss the
00:18:52
new shows. And this affects all podcasts. So anything you listen to, you guys, make sure that you're following.
00:18:57
Make sure you have enough room in your phone because it's kind of really important to us.
00:19:02
Yes. So head over to Apple Podcasts and click the follow button on all your favorite podcasts.
00:19:07
Get your phone cleaned up and new episodes will be automatically downloaded each week.
00:19:11
And we really appreciate it. Yeah, that's a little preventative measure for you.
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00:21:20
Okay, so I'm going first this week. Today, I'm going to tell you about a lesser known female serial killer
00:21:27
who managed to brazenly operate in her Chicago neighborhood for close to 10 years.
00:21:33
This is the story of the premonition poisoner, Tilly Klimek. Ooh. My main source of the story is a book
00:21:39
called The Premonition Poisoner, the true story of serial killer Tilly Klimek by Charlize Ellis. So you can go pick that up. So Otilia Gerbekek, that's her name,
00:21:53
or Tilly, as I'm going to call her, is born in Poland in 1876, but immigrates to the United
00:21:58
States with her parents when she's a baby and the family settles in Chicago's little Poland
00:22:03
neighborhood, which is a huge hub for Polish immigrants. So imagine that late 1800s in Chicago.
00:22:10
What a time to be alive, maybe. I mean, I bet it smelled amazing. But the first thing I imagined was like, ooh, like pierogies and perhaps some summer sausages.
00:22:22
Delicious. So when Tilly is about 20 years old, although somewhere I saw when she was like 14 years old,
00:22:28
so I'm not totally clear on that. Tilly marries a man named Josef Mitkowicz or Joseph as he tends to be known to people who
00:22:36
don't speak Polish. So I'm going to call him Joseph. Okay. Turns out Joseph is not a great husband.
00:22:42
He tends to drink a lot. He doesn't work much. And he is at least verbally abusive.
00:22:47
Tilly and Joseph have two children, a son and a daughter. And in January of 1914, after almost 20 years of marriage, when Tilly is about 38 years old,
00:22:56
she walks into a fabric shop to buy material for a black dress. When the store clerk sympathetically asked Tilly when her husband died, because, you
00:23:04
know, black dresses are for mourning, Tilly says, 10 days from now. This is a kind of sense of humor, by the way.
00:23:12
Can you imagine that shopkeeper? You're just like, great, moving on. Also, why did you?
00:23:19
Okay. Well, I guess we're getting to know Tilly right now. But this being the first piece of information I'm learning about her, it's not a great start.
00:23:28
No. So lo and behold, Tilly's prediction that her husband's going to die in 10 days comes true.
00:23:35
Joseph comes down with flu-like symptoms and his condition rapidly deteriorates.
00:23:40
Just like Tilly predicted, Joseph dies about 10 days after she's bought the fabric for her morning dress.
00:23:46
His death certificate lists his cause of death as heart trouble. Joseph leaves behind an insurance policy, shoppingly, of $1,000, which would be worth how much in today's dollars?
00:23:58
$350,000. $30,000. thousand. It does seem like it should be more than that though, right? Yeah. And also I'm proud
00:24:05
of myself for finding that three. There is my psychic powers are proven, not disproven.
00:24:10
As I like to say, you're closer to right than wrong. I'll take it. I don't know what it means. The people of Little Poland are basically devout
00:24:19
Catholics. At the same time, there's a kind of superstition and folk magic in the culture,
00:24:24
you know, from the old world, especially around the idea of women who are healers and seers,
00:24:29
Like they believe in that. So little Poland is an insular place where everyone knows everyone else.
00:24:34
So word quickly spreads about Tilly's accurate prediction. And instead of being suspicious, they're like, ooh, she predicted that, you know?
00:24:42
And so she quickly launches a side hustle as a fortune teller. But it seems that she's not making a lot of money from fortune telling.
00:24:49
It's more like she likes the respect or fear that people treat her with because of these
00:24:54
apparent abilities. She's also known to point at various stray dogs and cats in the neighborhood and accurately
00:25:00
predict their deaths. And act really scared. Sorry. That's what it sounded like you're going to say.
00:25:07
So sorry. Wait. So she's kind of turning that like cat in the hospital that lays on the person that's
00:25:13
going to die next. She's turning that whole concept entirely on its head and being like, you there, cat.
00:25:18
Right. The cat's like, meow. And she's like, you're dead. So only one month after Tilly's first husband dies in February of 1914, Tilly remarries.
00:25:27
This new husband is referred to in public records as both John Ruchkoski and or Joseph Ruchkoski.
00:25:35
And because nearly every other man in the story is also named Joseph, I'm going to call him Joseph.
00:25:40
Great. There's a lot of Josephs in this shit thing for Josephs. What are you calling the first Joseph?
00:25:45
Or is this the first Joseph? This is the second Joseph. I'll call him Joseph too.
00:25:49
Okay. Not long after they're married, Tilly says she's seeing visions of his corpse and fears he'll die soon.
00:25:55
So the following May, Joseph Chu does, in fact, die after a brief illness, leaving behind $1,200 in cash and a $722 life insurance policy.
00:26:07
So this nets Tilly a grand total of almost two grand, which would be almost 60 grand in today's money, which is a lot, especially back then, right?
00:26:14
so in four months Tilly has made the equivalent of 90 grand on her dead husbands wow so Tilly has
00:26:22
made a nice little annual salary in the span of four months and could afford to relax for a bit
00:26:26
and just keep busy with the occasional fortune telling gig she doesn't do this at the end of 1914
00:26:32
the same year her first and second husbands die Tilly meets another man Joseph III
00:26:39
she meets him through the marriage a marriage broker who arranged her first marriage so there's
00:26:47
like a marriage that's wild right a marriage broker yeah that's kind of old school but it
00:26:51
is that thing of like you want a nice polish girl to meet a nice polish boy right you know
00:26:56
in your section of chicago right yeah there's got to be some disgruntled marriage brokers back then
00:27:02
who were just like let's see what happens with these two and just like pairs people up because
00:27:05
he's bored or whatever. It's not really sincere. Yeah. This Joseph three has told the broker that
00:27:12
he will only marry someone very beautiful. How different. I know. Clever. He's cutting edge,
00:27:18
this man. And Tilly is mainly described as being plain or dowdy. But Joseph makes an exception
00:27:24
because he has heard that Tilly is very rich. He also has heard that she's a great cook,
00:27:29
which is like it's known about her. She makes a good stew, apparently, which probably all they
00:27:34
ate back then, I'm imagining. Also, who can't? It's like literally throw it in a pot. Pretty easy.
00:27:40
Yeah. Salt. Just keep adding salt. Sorry, wait, really quick. I can't. Shit. And I won't, Joseph III. I refuse. Tilly and Joseph decide to enter into a trial
00:27:56
relationship, which I think we should bring back. Yeah. To see if a marriage between them will work,
00:28:02
but there's some problems right away. Tilly's bummed to hear that Joseph doesn't have a life insurance policy,
00:28:07
which is romantic. Heartbreaking. They remain engaged, but Tilly knows it's only a matter of time before Joseph's going to leave her.
00:28:15
And this alone, the thought of that pisses her off. By this point, some people have their suspicions about Tilly.
00:28:22
In fact, some of Joseph three's family have warned him not to eat anything. She cooks for him.
00:28:27
Cause like the rumors out. Oh, but he can't keep himself from Tilly's stew. Is that an innuendo?
00:28:33
I don't know. It sounds dirty for sure. He can't help himself. Not only that, but over the period of their engagement, Joseph Three's sister and brother
00:28:40
each get into arguments with Tilly, then accept a peace offering from her in the form of food.
00:28:47
So Tilly's just dishing it up. Did they get sick? Yep. The brother gets some food.
00:28:55
What am I? I was like, no, just mentioning that. Anyway, moving on. the brother gets some food and moonshine becomes very ill and dies. Oh. And before 1914 is over
00:29:07
and before Tilly and Joseph even get married, Joseph three as well becomes sick and dies.
00:29:13
Oh. So yeah, lots of lots of people falling around her feet. Okay. Yeah. Not good. No.
00:29:20
So in the course of one single year, two husbands, one boyfriend, and at least two other people,
00:29:25
as well as various neighborhood animals have all become sick and died after eating food from Tilly.
00:29:31
And some people are getting suspicious. So why is Tilly still allowed to go around
00:29:35
predicting people's deaths and giving them food, you ask? One thing to keep in mind is that this
00:29:41
is a poor, fairly dense neighborhood in 1914. So disease and death are pretty rampant. So it's
00:29:47
actually not that weird for people around you to die regularly. Just not that many, I feel like.
00:29:53
In the same period Chicago experienced three different epidemics one right after the other The first was cholera the second was tuberculosis and the third was influenza So a real bummer all around
00:30:06
So there was a lot of death. Yes, for sure. These epidemics, of course, as they do, all disproportionately affected poor people
00:30:14
and the ones who were living in dense neighborhoods where there was still minimal public health and
00:30:19
sanitation efforts. So between 1915 to 1920, Tilly stops looking for husbands and instead focuses on
00:30:26
her fortune telling and some of her other relationships. She dials it down. Yeah, she
00:30:31
pumps the brakes. Good. So 1920, Tilly, who's now about 44 years old, gets a job at a factory.
00:30:38
By now she's run through most of her life insurance money. And at this job, she meets a man
00:30:43
not named Joseph. His name is Frank Kupchick. He's referred to as a widower, but this is actually
00:30:49
unclear based on census records. Still, all accounts of Frank says that he is a nice,
00:30:55
mild-mannered man. In early 1921, after a very brief courtship, Tilly and Frank get married.
00:31:01
At first, this seems like a happier marriage than any of the previous ones. Frank and Tilly
00:31:05
are relatively prosperous, and they move into a nice apartment. Frank goes to work until he stays
00:31:11
home, but there are some seeds of trouble. The apartment is across the street from a cemetery
00:31:17
and a grave digger in the cemetery starts spreading gossip around town that Tilly has
00:31:21
regular male visitors who tend to come while Frank is at work. A gossipy grave digger. I bet he sees
00:31:29
some shit, right? Yeah. And also, I just love that as a character. I don't know if you see a grave
00:31:37
Gravedigger in a book or a movie or whatever is always like, oh, he's all sullen.
00:31:41
Or it's like, no, it actually makes more sense. And he's like, hey, life's going on.
00:31:45
Let's talk about everything that's going on. Also, he's like quietly gravedigging.
00:31:50
And it looks like he's just minding his biz. But he's literally listening to the conversations going on around him.
00:31:55
Yep. And watching dudes walk up and down the back stairs or whatever. That's right.
00:32:00
Never underestimate a gravedigger, I guess. Never. Never. Never. So ultimately, Frank doesn't escape the same fate as all the Josephs who came before him.
00:32:11
That was from Allie. She wrote that. It was very clever. That's a good line. After only a few weeks of marriage, Frank, too, falls ill.
00:32:18
She's not subtle about this. At the beginning of Frank's illness, the couple's landlady visits the apartment and sees Tilly
00:32:25
sitting by his bed in her morning dress and hat. He's not even dead yet. She asked Tilly if she might be getting ahead of herself with this outfit.
00:32:34
Tilly says that she has had a premonition and it won't be long before Frank dies.
00:32:39
In fact, some people say that Tilly would mock Frank during this period and say things to him like, quote, it won't be long now.
00:32:46
Jesus Christ. Yeah. She is a sociopath. Yeah. While Frank is still alive, Tilly goes out and buys a coffin for him.
00:32:58
I mean, what's the rush? What are you doing? She boasts to him about what a good deal she got on it.
00:33:04
Good God. Yeah. Don't do that. He's like trying to crawl out the front door. Like, damn.
00:33:10
She keeps grabbing him by his ankles. Where was the gravedigger then? Trying out.
00:33:16
Get involved. The coffin is $30 or $923 in today's money. Coffins are expensive.
00:33:22
They're so expensive. Tilly asks the landlady if she can store the coffin in the basement until he dies.
00:33:28
But the landlady is superstitious and says, no way. Also, sorry, Tilly is gossiping about herself, essentially.
00:33:34
She's like putting the word in the street to make sure people are suspicious of her, it feels like.
00:33:39
She's not being subtle, but she keeps getting away with it. So maybe she thinks she is.
00:33:44
Guess where she keeps the coffin instead, since she can't keep it in the basement.
00:33:48
I don't know, right in the bedroom next to Frank as he dies? Yep, right in the apartment.
00:33:51
Yeah. It's unclear what the life insurance payout is for Frank. But not long after Frank's death, a friend of his strikes up a courtship with Tilly.
00:34:00
This man is named Joseph Kleinick. So Joseph Bore. The fourth Joseph. Yeah. And this is her last name at the end of this.
00:34:10
So Joseph Bore is 51 and has been widowed and divorced. So Tilly is his third wife.
00:34:16
Like Frank before, Joseph makes a decent living and he and Tilly move into a nice apartment together where she takes care of the home and he works.
00:34:24
Tilly starts pestering Joseph to take out a life insurance policy. And so eventually he does.
00:34:30
Like you gotta listen to rumors sometimes, you know? I mean, and also at this point in history, like it's fine that these people didn't know
00:34:37
and they weren't really hip to it. Yeah. But if any new spouse insists upon you getting insurance and is like kind of pushy, like
00:34:49
obsessed about it or whatever, brings it up a lot. Just, just watch your back. Totally.
00:34:54
Don't go downstairs in front of them, I'd say. And be like, I don't feel like Stu.
00:35:00
I don't know. It's weird. I don't feel like eating anything you could sprinkle arsenic into or
00:35:05
whatever you're about to do. That's right. Oh, you made me a drink while I wasn't looking? I don't
00:35:09
want that. Not thirsty. So he eventually does get life insurance. He also agrees to hand over his
00:35:15
weekly pay of $26 to Tilly and she gives him a daily allowance of $1 out of that $26. That's hot.
00:35:23
Yeah, essentially in today's money, she gets $447 a week and gives him $17 a day as an allowance, which isn't that bad, right?
00:35:33
For back then, it's probably like five cents to eat or I don't know. Is he bedridden yet?
00:35:38
Not yet. Is he poisoned yet? So it's not a ton. No, it's not. But yeah. Yeah. Shortly after Joseph takes out the life insurance policy, he gets sick.
00:35:47
But thanks to his brother he doesn meet the same fate as the one two three Joseph and the Frank who came before him Joseph for his brother insists that he be seen by a doctor thankfully Yes Over Tilly protests he brings a doctor to the house who immediately suspects that Joseph
00:36:06
been poisoned by arsenic. Joseph is brought to the hospital and it's confirmed there. And Tilly's
00:36:12
jig is up. Finally. Yeah. In late October of 1922, Tilly is arrested and charged with the attempted
00:36:18
murder of Joseph Klimek. She does not go quietly. This is not a wilting flower or whatever. No.
00:36:25
She struggles with the cops and says to one of the officers, quote, the next person I'm going
00:36:29
to make dinner for is you, end quote. So a full confession. Yeah, essentially. A confession and
00:36:36
a threatening cop. So cool. The one thing you can say about Tilly is she loves to confess her crimes.
00:36:43
She does. She loves it. It's her passion. She's a battle axe and she can't keep her mouth shut.
00:36:48
A search of Tilly's apartment reveals that she has her own stash of arsenic-based rat poison from a brand called Rough on Rats.
00:36:57
Oh. I know. What did they do besides spread disease? The Cook County coroner orders the exhumation of Tilly's most recent previous husband, Frank.
00:37:07
In his body, investigators find, quote, arsenic enough to kill four men. Oh, Jesus.
00:37:13
So she did not hide that well. So police then get an anonymous tip telling them that they should exhume the body of Tilly's cousin Nellie's first husband, too.
00:37:23
And they find arsenic in his body as well. So she was like working alongside her cousin Nellie, who lived in the neighborhood as well.
00:37:31
The coroner wisely decides to exhume the bodies of the rest of Tilly's Josephs. The only Joseph whose body is not exhumed is the one who Tilly dated but didn't marry.
00:37:41
So Joseph Mitkovic and Joseph Ruchkovsky are also exhumed. And all of this is being reported feverishly by the Chicago and national press.
00:37:50
Of course, they love a black widow. And now Tilly's family finally decides to come forward to the police with stories of several relatives who died after eating food at Tilly's house or after being cared for by Tilly.
00:38:03
So the case just gets bigger and bigger with every person that talks to them. that like anonymously is like, yeah, we've suspected this for years.
00:38:13
Prosecutors ultimately decide to charge Tilly with the murder of Frank, the husband she killed before marrying Joseph for who survived.
00:38:20
The trial is an absolute circus. This is Chicago in the 1920s. And if Tilly is found guilty, she'll be sent to the notorious Murderesses Row,
00:38:29
which was made famous by the musical Chicago. Oh, so this is all like intertwined with that.
00:38:34
People can't hold it together in the courtroom. they laugh and jeer, which doesn't seem to bother Tilly at all. She herself adds to the circus
00:38:42
atmosphere by posing for the press and insulting the prosecutors whenever she has the opportunity.
00:38:48
She's a live wire. It's a true personality, like trait slash disorder. This kind of person
00:38:55
where they're like, no rules apply to me. I don't care what you think or say. And I'm going to
00:39:03
murder at will and good luck, basically. Shameless. Yeah. Shameless. Exactly. So surviving Joseph,
00:39:10
number four, testifies at the trial. And he says that before meeting Tilly, he'd always been healthy.
00:39:15
In fact, right after they got married, but before he fell ill, he had just passed a rigorous health
00:39:20
screening for that life insurance. And after that, he says, quote, suddenly I found I could no longer
00:39:26
smoke tobacco made me sick well then i noticed the soup and coffee tasted funny i kept working
00:39:33
despite the increasing pains suddenly my legs became numb and then my arms and hands end quote
00:39:39
and of course nausea stomach pains and numbness in the extremities are all symptoms of arsenic
00:39:44
poisoning huh tilly's neighbors and family members also testified telling about how she had gone
00:39:49
around bragging about the deal she had got on the coffin at this point in illinois it's up to the
00:39:56
jury to decide both the verdict and the sentence. And after 22 hours of deliberation, they find
00:40:01
Tilly guilty, but they sentence her to life in prison rather than to death. It's said that in
00:40:07
prison, Tilly enjoys a good reputation among the other inmates. She's well liked. Since many of
00:40:13
them have come from terribly abusive relationships, Tilly is regarded as a bit of a folk hero,
00:40:18
which we don't know the extent of the abuse of her husband's. It could not have happened at all.
00:40:22
we're not sure. And also, besides killing her husbands, she also killed other people,
00:40:27
including children and animals. The Chicago police attributed up to 20 poisoning cases
00:40:33
to Tilly and with the help of her cousin Nellie, 13 of the poisonings had been successful
00:40:40
and killed their intended target. Why was she killing children? I don't know. I think she just really liked poisoning. Yeah, that's right. I'm sure it was like
00:40:51
they're loud on the stairs or some fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know what happened to
00:40:55
her children. So maybe they were, I don't know. She was sent to Juliet Correctional Center to
00:41:00
serve her sentence where she would die in 1936. And that is the story of Chicago serial killer,
00:41:08
the premonition poisoner, Tilly Clemec. Man, that was good. She is like, instead of a hopeless
00:41:15
romantic, she's like a hopeless poisoner. Yeah. Where it's like, you're going to do this no
00:41:21
matter what, aren't you? You're going to do this. You're going to do this. You're going to threaten
00:41:26
the cops with it. You're just going to go for it. Oh, and her cousin never got, her cousin got off.
00:41:32
Oh, I'd be interested to know why. Was she like, Hey, she made me do it. Look how much she loves
00:41:37
poisoning. I think she was just a little more demure and not as like in your face about doing
00:41:42
it. And so they couldn't really prove it the same way that they could with Tilly. There's your lesson,
00:41:47
ladies keep that mouth shut about poisoning wear your spanks and keep your mouth shut wow good one that was real that was really good I didn want it to end Appreciate it
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Data accurate as of 220-26. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.
00:43:12
It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.
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I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. All right. Well, we're going to take a nice left turn here.
00:44:09
Go ahead. Which is kind of funny. But my story takes place in 1955 in the state capital of Alabama, which is Montgomery.
00:44:21
So the year before, in 1954, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had moved to town and he begins preaching at the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church.
00:44:30
And this following quote is from Stanford University's Martin Luther King Jr. Research and Education Institute.
00:44:36
It's from their website. It says shortly after accepting this position, he proposed a list of recommendations for the revitalization of the church, which were accepted without changes or revisions.
00:44:47
King insisted that every church member become a registered voter and a member of the NAACP.
00:44:54
He also organized a social and political action committee for the purpose of keeping the congregation intelligently informed concerning the social, political and economic situation.
00:45:06
End quote. So clearly it was a pivotal time in the civil rights movement and the city of Montgomery was at the civil rights movement's center.
00:45:16
That was a real quick photograph to kind of let you in on where you are, the time, the place and everything.
00:45:22
What's kind of starting to bubble up. So this story today is about a civil rights hero and an activist you probably haven't heard of.
00:45:32
She's not as famous as the others, but her simple action created a wave of inspiration and courage that now has its own place in American history.
00:45:42
This is the story of Claudette Colvin. So the sources used today are a book called Claudette Colvin, Twice Toward Justice by Philip Hose, an episode of the podcast History This Week and called Claudette Colvin Doesn't Give Up Her Seat,
00:45:59
and an episode of the Radio Diaries podcast called Claudette Colvin, Making Trouble Then and Now.
00:46:06
So this starts on a Wednesday afternoon in early March at Booker T. Washington High School,
00:46:12
which is a segregated public school for Black children. The end of the day bell has just rung
00:46:18
and a straight A student named Claudette Colvin and her friends push through the school's front
00:46:23
doors and head out towards downtown Montgomery. Claudette will later tell her biographer,
00:46:29
Philip Hose that quote, I loved going downtown. Montgomery had stores like JG Newberry's and
00:46:35
Cresses 5 and 10, which opened onto Monroe Street, the main street for black people.
00:46:41
Out back of Cresses, there was a hot dog stand. A lady who worked there and knew my dad would stack
00:46:47
up soda crates so I could sit down while I ate hot dogs and drank my soda, end quote.
00:46:53
which is just such a like as I was starting this and looking at all of Maren's research I was like
00:47:00
man when you are like 13 14 15 whatever before you can drive but you're older you're no longer
00:47:07
being kind of driven around to like activities or whatever like me and my friend Holly Gardner
00:47:13
from the tampon suitcase story we used to just walk through downtown Petaluma and you'd kind of
00:47:18
like shop, but you didn't really have any money. And you'd kind of like look at stuff and you talk
00:47:23
about stuff. It's such a like kind of across the board American tradition of like junior high,
00:47:30
you know, early high school students kind of just like hanging out in their own town.
00:47:35
Totally. Totally. Also like that hot dogs have been brought up yet once again. But downtown Montgomery is also a source of pain for Claudette. It is filled with constant
00:47:47
reminders that she is living in the Jim Crow South. White operated stores will take her money,
00:47:53
but they won't let her try anything on. She's not allowed in certain parks. Even her optometrist,
00:47:59
whose office is downtown, downtown won't let Claudette or any other black person sit in the waiting room chairs
00:48:04
because it might offend his white patients. Claudette says, quote, there were so many places
00:48:11
you couldn't go and so many things you couldn't do if you were black. So basically in that part
00:48:16
of the thing, I was just like, oh, right. So my experience is actually nothing like this experience
00:48:21
of going downtown because, and this is the kind of thing where it's like when people always talk
00:48:26
about critical race theory or all these different things. It's like, it's just so white people
00:48:31
understand they don't get it. You can't dismiss it if you don't get it. You actually have to
00:48:36
hear what's parallel and then hear the difference and how painful and destructive that difference is
00:48:43
to then have the further conversation. Right. It's like our experiences couldn't have been
00:48:48
further apart in actuality, even though it sounds like it, it's, it's, we'll never understand
00:48:53
completely. That constant being unwelcome, the constant suspicion or derision that kids had to
00:49:02
feel, that all Black people had to feel, constantly being reminded that they don't belong and they're
00:49:08
different and they're separate in that era. So this segregation also extends to Montgomery's bus
00:49:15
system. Even though all passengers pay the same fare and despite the fact that Black people make
00:49:20
up the majority of riders. The bus's first 10 seats are reserved for white people. Black people
00:49:27
are expected, listen to this, I didn't even, I never thought about this before. They're expected
00:49:31
to board the bus up front, pay their fare, then step back off the bus, walk down to the back doors
00:49:38
and re-enter through the back doors and sit in the last rows. As the bus drivers have full authority
00:49:45
to do whatever they need to ensure that this segregation law is followed. Some bus drivers even carry guns on the job.
00:49:53
So Claudette and her friends get on the bus and they take their seat in the first available row designated for Black people.
00:50:02
So it's basically in the back, but as far up front as possible. Claudette takes a window seat,
00:50:08
but as the driver continues along the route and makes more stops, the bus starts to fill up.
00:50:12
Before long, Claudette and her friends notice a young white woman hovering in the aisle beside them.
00:50:18
She's staring at them. She clearly wants their seats. And this is how bus segregation actually worked in Montgomery.
00:50:26
Even if a black person is sitting in the designated black section, when a white person wants their seat, then every black passenger in that row, including the ones across the aisle from that passenger, had to move.
00:50:39
Oh, my God. So, like, the whole row had to be vacated. holy shit. It's like now it's a white row. Now we're here. I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't
00:50:47
know that either. So the bus driver orders the girls to find new seats. Claudette's friends head
00:50:53
toward the back of the bus, but Claudette doesn't move. She would later say, quote, he wanted me to
00:50:59
give up my seat for a white person and I would have done it for an elderly person, but this was
00:51:03
a young white woman. So it's no coincidence that Claudette is feeling this resistance and is filled
00:51:11
with this kind of frustration and irritation about this because her teacher had been giving
00:51:18
lessons on heroic black women from U.S. history and Claudette had been listening and learning.
00:51:24
She would go on to say, quote, it felt as though Harriet Tubman's hands were pushing me down
00:51:30
on one shoulder and Sojourner Truth's hands were pushing me down on the other shoulder.
00:51:36
I felt inspired by these women because my teacher taught us about them in so much detail
00:51:41
I wasn't frightened, but disappointed and angry because I knew I was sitting in the right seat.
00:51:47
Wow. Yeah. So that's the other reason they don't want to teach critical race theory is because then people understand, oh, people have been in this position before.
00:51:55
Here's what they did. Here's what you can do. Here's how you affect change. Or just here's how you can feel brave because who's braver than Harriet Tubman?
00:52:05
Totally. I love Harriet Tubman. Okay. But Claudette's not the only one that's angry.
00:52:11
As she keeps her seat, the white passengers around her begin to confront and try to intimidate her, telling her to get up.
00:52:19
She stands firm, even though she's 15 years old. So the bus driver stops at an intersection where a cop car is waiting, and two white officers get on the bus, and the driver points in Claudette's direction.
00:52:33
Claudette remembers the bus driver saying, quote, I've had trouble with that thing before.
00:52:38
He called me a thing. End quote. So the officers head in Claudette's direction and ask if she's going to move.
00:52:48
And she tells them, no, she's not moving. And it's her constitutional right to sit there.
00:52:53
On that, she says, quote, I was more defiant. And then they knocked my books out of my lap.
00:52:59
And one of them grabbed my arm. I don't know how I got off that bus. But the other students said they manhandled me off and put me in the squad car.
00:53:07
Then they asked me to stick my arms out the window, and that's when they handcuffed me.
00:53:12
Oh, my God. So the ride to the police station is a harrowing one for Claudette. She'll later say, quote, I feared the policemen might hit me with their clubs,
00:53:24
and they were trying to guess my bra size and teasing me about my breasts. I could have been raped.
00:53:31
Oh, my fucking God. That idea of like, now they're going to quote unquote, take care of this person who's making trouble.
00:53:39
Therefore, what happens to that person when they're in police custody is somehow justified or like no one will care about it is the fear and panic that I'm sure many black people have when they're in custody.
00:53:52
Obviously, especially these days. So Claudette assumes she going to be taken to the juvenile facility but instead these officers take her to the local jail and book her alongside adults
00:54:05
She's put into a cell. She's denied a phone call. Luckily, her friends and schoolmates on the bus that afternoon saw everything and they went and told her mother.
00:54:15
So later that night, Claudette's mother and the family pastor, Reverend H.H. Johnson, arrive at the jail to bail her out.
00:54:24
Claudette remembers, quote, on the ride home from jail, Reverend Johnson said something to me I'll never forget.
00:54:30
He was an adult who everyone respected and his opinion meant a lot to me. Claudette, he said, I'm so proud of you.
00:54:37
Everyone prays for freedom. We've all been praying and praying, but you're different.
00:54:42
You want your answer the next morning. And I think you just brought the revolution to Montgomery.
00:54:48
Holy shit. End quote. 15. So brave. A teen girl, a teen girl that just in the moment is like, you know what?
00:54:57
No fucking way. Oh, I love it. OK, Reverend Johnson is right on the money. But at the moment, Claudette is more concerned about the three criminal charges that she was just booked for.
00:55:11
Therefore, one, violating segregation law to disturbing the peace and three, assaulting a police officer.
00:55:17
So Claudette adamantly denies the charge of assaulting a police officer. she claims that, quote, she went limp as a baby. I was too smart to fight back.
00:55:29
Still, the police put in their report that she had kicked and scratched them. It's their word against hers. And so, of course, the charges stick.
00:55:38
So, of course, Claudette's not the first Black person that ever refused to give up their seat
00:55:43
to a white writer on public transportation in Montgomery. But the timing of Claudette's actions
00:55:49
is very important. And that's because right at the same time as Claudette decided to do that,
00:55:56
Black organizers and activists are in the middle of planning a wide-scale protest of the city's
00:56:02
bus segregation law. So the news of Claudette's arrest spreads around quickly and it's written up
00:56:09
in the newspapers, which of course terrifies Claudette because she and her family are so
00:56:14
worried about retaliation from the KKK. So all these actions had such, like, they were so high
00:56:20
stakes. But to the Black organizers in Montgomery, like Joanne Robinson and legendary civil rights
00:56:26
leader E.D. Dixon, this is a big moment because now they can take this action that Claudette took
00:56:33
when she refused to stand up and kickstart a public campaign to take down bus segregation.
00:56:39
And this is just to make sure before Rosa Parks, right? It is. And that is going to come up.
00:56:44
Okay. Interesting. That's how Claudette Colvin, when people first started talking about her recently, it was,
00:56:51
did you know that there was a Rosa Parks before there was a Rosa Parks? Yes. I remember that conversation.
00:56:56
But Rosa Parks is actually in this story. Okay, cool. So it's kind of interesting how it all connects.
00:57:00
So E.D. Nixon suggests Claudette start going to youth group meetings that are hosted by the
00:57:06
Montgomery NAACP. At the time, that organization is actively trying to get more young black people involved.
00:57:14
And they believe that Claudette being featured in the press could help basically kind of boost those efforts.
00:57:21
So Claudette shows up at a meeting. She's greeted by the youth group leader, a woman by the name of Rosa Parks.
00:57:28
Hey. Hey. Wow. So at the time, Rosa Parks is in her early 40s. She works as a seamstress at a local department store, and she's also a well-established member of the Montgomery NAACP.
00:57:42
And when the two women first meet, Rosa reportedly tells Claudette, quote, You're Claudette Colvin? Oh my God, I was looking for some big old burly overgrown teenager who sassed white people out.
00:57:54
But no, they pulled a little girl off the bus. Oh, that gave me chills. So Claudette and Rosa wind up forming an immediate bond and Rosa will end up mentoring Claudette during this overwhelming moment in her life.
00:58:10
In addition to those NAACP youth group meetings where Rosa regularly champions Claudette's heroic protest on the bus, Claudette also spends time with Rosa at the park's home.
00:58:23
Claudette stops by for coffee and snacks, models wedding dresses as Rosa alters them for clients.
00:58:29
And as Claudette will put it, they sometimes, quote, would stay up all night gabbing.
00:58:34
So meanwhile, the fact that Claudette is charged with, among other things, violating segregation laws presents a huge legal opportunity for civil rights activists.
00:58:45
Edie Nixon also connects Claudette with a young Black activist and lawyer named Fred Gray,
00:58:50
who takes on Claudette as a client with a specific goal in mind. He wants to use her case to argue that the city of Montgomery and Alabama's state segregation laws are blatantly unconstitutional.
00:59:03
To no one's surprise, Claudette is convicted on all three charges against her. And just as planned, Fred Gray files an appeal.
00:59:12
Mm-hmm. Claudette's life soon becomes very complicated, very fast. The media coverage paints her as a rude, belligerent teenager.
00:59:22
And according to her biographer, Philip Hose, quote, she found that attitudes at Booker T. Washington, which was her school, had hardened against her.
00:59:32
It was easier to see the bus girl as a troublemaker than as a pioneer. More and more students mocked her now, end quote.
00:59:39
And actually one of her former classmates would later go on to tell her biographer that, quote, Claudette was a wonderful person with a mind that was mature beyond her years.
00:59:50
One day our teacher told us to write down on a piece of paper what we wanted to be when we grew up and pass it to the front Claudette wrote president of the U Damn staunch women Staunch I think she meant it We should have been rallying around her and being proud of what
01:00:07
she had done, but instead we ridiculed her. End quote. So in early May of 1955, a judge dismisses
01:00:16
two of the three charges against Claudette, the charge of violating the segregation law and the
01:00:22
charge of disturbing the peace, but she remains charged with assaulting a police officer.
01:00:28
And this seems to be a very calculated decision by the white judge. The fact that Claudette's
01:00:33
bogus assault charge is now affirmed and is now on her criminal record will have serious
01:00:40
implications on her future. On top of that, the judge's actions will also throw a wrench into
01:00:46
Fred Gray's plan to legally undermine segregation laws, with the segregation-related charges now
01:00:52
dropped, there's no basis for an appeal that could potentially result in a court declaring
01:00:57
these laws unconstitutional. So he's basically just taken that whole plan out at the knees.
01:01:04
Now the path forward is a little less clear for Montgomery organizers who wanted to launch an
01:01:09
entire protest movement off of Claudette's case. Instead, they move forward with a plan,
01:01:15
but Claudette is no longer the figurehead of the protest. Instead, it will be Rosa Parks.
01:01:23
At first, Claudette is upset by this, and she will go on to say, quote, there was a time when I thought I would be the centerpiece of the bus case.
01:01:31
I had enough self-confidence to keep it going. It really, really hurt. But on the other hand,
01:01:37
having been with Rosa at the NAACP meetings, I thought, well, maybe she is the right person.
01:01:42
she's strong and adults won't listen to me anyway. Wow. That's a difficult decision to make, I'm sure.
01:01:50
Yeah. And she's already actually paid the price in a lot of ways. So it's like, it will have all
01:01:56
been worth it if now I get to kind of stand up and, you know, obviously she's an ambitious young
01:02:01
woman and she has kind of big dreams for herself. So it's a very tough and confusing time in Claudette's
01:02:07
life. And she's actively searching for some peace, which can't blame her. One day she meets a much
01:02:14
older man while watching a baseball game in a public park. Claudette will later say, quote,
01:02:19
he kept telling me to ignore what people were saying about me. And I really needed to hear that.
01:02:24
He was easy to talk to. He was so much older than me and he had so much more experience.
01:02:29
I knew I was getting into a situation I couldn't handle, but it was hard to stop.
01:02:34
end quote. So basically this guy knows who she is. He knows that she's in this kind of vulnerable
01:02:41
yet public position and that she must be stressed and she must be scared. And he's an old creep
01:02:49
that's basically like, oh, I'm going to make her feel better. He preyed upon her. He fully
01:02:54
preyed upon her. So Claudette sleeps with this man once and gets pregnant. And then he disappears
01:03:00
years from her life altogether. It turns out that in addition to preying on a vulnerable 15-year-old
01:03:05
girl, the man is married. So when Claudette's high school finds out about this pregnancy,
01:03:13
she basically is expelled. Yeah. Jesus. So on December 1st, 1955, nine months after Claudette
01:03:20
Colvin's arrest, and after months of careful planning by Black organizers, Rosa Parks boards
01:03:26
a Montgomery bus and just as Claudette had done before her, refuses to give up her seat to a white
01:03:31
passenger. The bus driver then calls the police, but from here, things play out differently than
01:03:37
they did with Claudette. The responding officers don't manhandle Rosa the way they had done
01:03:42
with teenage Claudette, who it's worth noting had darker skin than Rosa Parks. And on top of that,
01:03:50
Rosa is charged with disorderly conduct and breaking segregation law, not assault. She's
01:03:56
never jailed. And immediately she's allowed to make a phone call. So the public sympathy
01:04:01
is more on her side than it was for Claudette. Yes, because of course, when Black people take
01:04:07
an action like that, they have to do it perfectly. They cannot leave any room for criticism,
01:04:14
speculation, anything, right? And this is not to downplay Rosa Parks' activism. Clearly,
01:04:19
she was in on the plan from the beginning. And so this is basically going, okay, well,
01:04:24
if this has been compromised in certain ways here, we're going to try it again and we're
01:04:27
going to do it right this time. So now organizers swing into action. Joanne Robinson and a team
01:04:33
of activists flood Montgomery with leaflets that urge every Black person in Montgomery to,
01:04:39
stay off the buses in protest of the arrest and trial of Rosa Parks. So just a few days later,
01:04:46
on December 5th, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. delivers his first major public speech at the
01:04:52
Holt Street Baptist Church. Of course, he's given public speeches before, but this is his first huge
01:04:59
speech outside of a religious context. And speaking to a crowd of around a thousand people inside that
01:05:06
church with thousands more listening through speakers outside, Dr. King addresses the arrest
01:05:12
of Rosa Parks. And he declares the quote, we are determined here in Montgomery to work and fight
01:05:18
until justice runs down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream. End quote.
01:05:25
And of course, the crowd goes wild. And with those words, the official start of the historic
01:05:32
Montgomery bus boycott begins. It's a moment of unity and celebration, but Claudette Colvin
01:05:38
is not in the building. She says that she was, quote, in a different mind. I was depressed.
01:05:44
I was pregnant. I had been expelled from school, end quote. Yeah. Her mother and sister are there in the crowd at the Holt Street Baptist Church, but Claudette
01:05:54
decided to stay home that day And in this moment she just isn able to see how important she has been and is to this historic campaign But amazingly Claudette hasn made her biggest
01:06:08
contribution to the anti-segregation movement yet. A few months after the bus boycott begins,
01:06:14
the phone rings at her house and it's Fred Gray. He asks Claudette, who is now seven months pregnant,
01:06:21
if she wants to be a plaintiff in the lawsuit that he plans on filing in federal court
01:06:27
that will target Montgomery and Alabama state segregation laws as unconstitutional.
01:06:33
So now she's had some time to like basically process what she went through and process
01:06:39
her life and everything. And so now she agrees and she becomes one of the five Black female plaintiffs in the
01:06:47
suit that's now known as Browder versus Gale. So just for your information, Browder is the surname of one of the plaintiffs, the first one alphabetically, and Gale is the last name of the then mayor of Montgomery.
01:07:00
W.A. Gale was his name. Got it. So that's just in case anyone ever quizzes you on what exactly Browder versus Gale is referring to.
01:07:08
So Claudette says, quote, I was afraid. The way life was in the South, how could you not be afraid?
01:07:15
You never knew who was KKK or who would target you. end quote. But then she adds, quote, I was not a person who lived in fear. It felt that if they
01:07:27
really needed someone, I was the right person. It was a chance for me to speak out. I was still
01:07:32
angry. I wanted white people to know that I wasn't satisfied with segregation and black people too,
01:07:37
end quote. I just fucking love this girl. It's a teenage girl. It is hard enough to be a teenage
01:07:44
girl. I'm literally picturing myself as that age and I don't know where she got all this courage
01:07:49
from. It's incredible. Seriously, seriously. So Claudette gives birth to her son Raymond in late
01:07:56
March of 1956. And then just six weeks later, she arrives at the federal courthouse ready to testify.
01:08:04
Fred Gray, who considers Claudette his star witness, saves her testimony for last. She takes
01:08:10
the stand and the now 16 year old Claudette recounts how she was forcibly removed from the bus
01:08:15
handcuffed thrown into a cop car and locked in a jail cell according to hose quote at this point
01:08:23
a spectator in the courtroom's balcony let out a wail and began sobbing loudly oh my god that was me
01:08:31
that was time traveling me in the past Claudette's testimony is an emotional slam dunk in the end
01:08:38
the three-judge panel hearing this case rules that the segregation laws at hand are in fact
01:08:44
unconstitutional because they violate the 14th Amendment, which guarantees all U.S. citizens
01:08:50
equal protection under state and federal laws. Both the city and state immediately appeal the
01:08:56
decision, and later that year, Browder v. Gale goes all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.
01:09:02
There, the justices agree with the lower court's ruling, and with that, the city of Montgomery and state of Alabama's laws mandating segregated buses are declared unconstitutional.
01:09:15
The Montgomery bus boycott then comes to a victorious close. Shit, that's amazing.
01:09:22
Claudette has just played an enormous role in fighting against segregation. Fred Gray even declares that, quote, Claudette Colvin had more courage, in my opinion, than any of the other persons involved in the movement.
01:09:36
Wow. End quote. That's huge. That's big. That's a 15-year-old. And he'll later say, quote, I represented Claudette Colvin and also Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King.
01:09:46
And what you have to realize is there are literally hundreds and probably thousands of individuals like Claudette Colvin and many others.
01:09:54
You never see their names. You never see their faces, but they laid the foundation so that we could honor the Dr.
01:10:01
King's and the Rosa Parks's. Amazing. End quote. So a year after the Supreme Court's decision, Claudette completes her GED.
01:10:10
And over the next several years, she lives in Alabama, in Texas, and in New York City.
01:10:16
As her family grows, she finds work in nursing. But for years, Claudette does not talk much about her pivotal role in U.S. history.
01:10:26
But then in the early 2000s, I think this personal opinion with the advent of the Internet, people start discovering and talking about Claudette's incredible story of bravery and determination.
01:10:38
She's invited to ceremonies that celebrate the Montgomery bus boycott. She's interviewed by journalists and she becomes the subject of a biography by Philip Hose.
01:10:47
meanwhile she's still carrying the assault charge from when she was 15 years old holy shit in the
01:10:55
early 2020s when she is in her 80s she decides it's time to finally change that yes so claudette
01:11:02
shows up to a juvenile court in montgomery alabama where she is joined by 90 year old fred gray oh my
01:11:09
god he's still alive he's still alive he's still fighting and she makes an appeal to have the charge
01:11:15
expunged. In December of 2021, the judge, a Black man named Calvin Williams, signs the order that
01:11:23
clears Claudette's name. He specifically notes that her protest on the bus, quote,
01:11:29
since been recognized as a courageous act on her behalf and on behalf of a community of affected
01:11:35
people, end quote. Today, Claudette Colvin seems much more self-assured when it comes to her place
01:11:42
in civil rights era history. In 2005, she told the Chicago Tribune, quote, let the people know Rosa Parks
01:11:50
was the right person for the boycott, but also let them know that the attorneys took four other women to the Supreme Court
01:11:56
to challenge the law that led to the end of segregation. segregation, end quote. And that's the story of Claudette Colvin, the heroic 15-year-old
01:12:05
whose singular act of courage changed our laws and our country for the better. That was so good. I'm so glad you did that one. Oh my God.
01:12:16
Come on. This episode should be called Staunch Women. I mean, the good and the bad.
01:12:22
A good example and a bad example. Yeah, exactly. There's choices that we all make in this life,
01:12:28
and you can make certain choices where you poison everyone with your horrible stew
01:12:33
or you can keep your seat and tell people in a polite way to fuck off. Yeah, and then change history and BD.
01:12:42
Oh my God. Yeah. That was amazing. Great job. Thank you. Before we end, I want to really briefly address
01:12:49
the conflict in Israel and Palestine going on right now. I am clearly not an expert.
01:12:56
Um, I am a Jewish person living in the U S and I, you know, don't have a connection to Israel
01:13:05
beyond being Jewish, but, uh, it's just something I feel like I should, I guess,
01:13:13
express my opinion about it briefly. Um, personally, you know, obviously Hamas is a
01:13:22
terrible terrorist organization. And Israel has every right to defend themselves against that.
01:13:29
However, what's happening right now in Gaza is not that. It is innocent people, innocent Palestinian people being murdered And so obviously I am for a ceasefire And just want to make clear that I don support the Israeli government And I don I do not support and condone what going on in Gaza
01:13:52
You know, also free the hostages, but I, you know, it's just so complex and so complicated.
01:13:58
Those are my basic thoughts. And I just wanted to give those out there because, you know,
01:14:02
I will also say that this is the most scared I've been as a Jewish person in the United States ever.
01:14:09
It's really scary right now. And that's kind of part of the reason I've been hesitant or, you know, afraid to say something.
01:14:17
It's a really scary time. Yeah, I think in this day and age, we're all so scared.
01:14:24
Like, I really heard you when you just said, as a Jewish person, I've never been this scared.
01:14:28
And that's the reality here in America, because the excuse people use to then suddenly become anti-Semitic.
01:14:36
Totally. I think everybody has to be really careful about what they're consuming, what they're believing.
01:14:43
Yes. Check your sources, all those things. Yeah. And that ultimately, the way people are responding to this, it's like human beings going, we're done with treating each other like this.
01:14:56
We're done with this kind of killing civilians in any number. Okay. So that said, we are going to donate $10,000 to the World Central Kitchen.
01:15:10
That's WCK.org. They go to the front lines and provide meals in response to humanitarian, climate, and community crises.
01:15:19
And it a really great organization So we happy to donate there I think that a beautiful gesture in the face of basically abject horror and fear and
01:15:30
that horrible feeling that everything is just escalating out of everyone's control.
01:15:35
You can do something in moments like that. And it is basically checking your neighbor, talking to your friends, making sure that
01:15:44
you're not ingesting too much, making sure you're not turning away and making sure you're not
01:15:51
obsessively staying on it and harming yourself. Well, thank you guys for listening and being here
01:15:58
with us. We really appreciate you. And take good care of yourself. And especially these days,
01:16:06
don't be afraid to call in sick. Take a mental health day or week. Take a series of mental health days.
01:16:17
Take a bath. I almost took a bath the other night. Then I was like, I should tell George I'm about to take a bath.
01:16:21
Yes, do it. Team bath. As Michelle McNamara said, it's chaos. Be kind. Yep. And stay sexy.
01:16:28
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
01:16:42
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
01:16:47
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalache. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Allie Elkin.
01:16:55
Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritemurder and Twitter at myfavemurder.
01:17:03
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