00:00:00
This is Exactly Right. You think you're in control until you realize you're not.
00:00:40
As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air, many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft.
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I thought we were going to die then. The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn.
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Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything. New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the iHeart Podcast Network.
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Listen to The Knife on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:10
I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl. This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now.
00:01:17
Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all.
00:01:24
As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity.
00:01:33
You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:42
Are you ready to podcast? Baby, I was born already. I was born podcasting. My favorite murder
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Yeah. The Netflix series that Dick Wolf produced. Yes, I watched it. Yes. I binged it this weekend.
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It is so good. It is so good. And my boyfriend is Mike Mooney, that big silver fox guy with a deep voice that's like,
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I'm actually a philosopher and a genius. And I'm into Grateful Dead. The first one I watched was the case of the woman who worked in the high rise.
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She's a cleaning lady in the high rise building. and she just disappears inside the building.
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Yeah. Like maddening. So maddening. Yeah. Yeah. I had never heard of any of those cases
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and they were, I was riveted. I wonder if they're just going to start doing that all over
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or just in New York. I mean, because that was a show that they tried to release on regular TV, right?
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Oh. This is my guess because I think this is what I saw, but I could absolutely, as we all know, be wrong.
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2017 they release it on regular tv and it just has like a regular run and that doesn't get renewed
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and people are like how could a dick wolf show not get renewed and then watching it now it's like
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oh this was visionary true crime content this was advanced storytelling sensitivity all the
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different things like yeah very cool it was definitely like the best regular true crime
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show that like the ones we fucking grew up watching, you know, like we're so good at a
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certain time. It was that we, yeah, we've been shit. I hope they do more. I do too. Cause there
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was, I don't know how to talk about it correctly, but it just was that thing where it's like until
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the time where we figure out how to fix policing and how to fix the justice system and how to,
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first of all, address, like just say in LA alone, the budgetary issues where schools have zero,
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mental health services have zero, and the cops have like 50 billion or something that's like
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to a degree that is just wild. All of that exists. I have very progressive voting beliefs on all of
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it. I want it changed. I want it done quickly. Of course. At the same time, meanwhile, every single
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day horrible things happen in this city, let's just say by itself. In this city, horrible things
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happen and horrible people do horrible things. And there are people out there trying to figure
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out who those horrible people are and put them in jail. It's not as simple as it was when we first
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started enjoying true crime. It's never been that simple. I'll say it this way. It's never been that
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simple. We've always been copaganded our whole lives. Ooh, I've never heard copaganded.
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That's a new one for me. Copaganda, which is just what law and order is, what any of those things are to say, hey, the justice system works great.
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It happens. They track this stuff down and it happens in three weeks. So you get an answer, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
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But as I watched this series, it was just like all of that aside, these people hear about this lady missing in this building and they bust their ass until they get an answer.
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And that's just how it happened. separate from everything else. It's like spotlighting the people who care. Yeah. And
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that does give you hope for sure. That fucking poor DA dude who was like, yeah, I quit after
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that fucking case because I realized it wasn for me You know most people cannot do it The average person cannot work in any kind of like
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you could consider it maybe like social services in a way. Yeah, yeah. Where you are there to service the public.
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Yeah. It is terrible. You see terrible things, terrible things happen in front of your eyes.
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And you just have to keep helping somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of, I'm listening to a book about a serial killer case I had never heard about.
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What are those called? It's not a documentary. True crime? Yeah, but nonfiction. Nonfiction.
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What if you suddenly forgot what true crime was? I meant nonfiction, but yes, true crime as well. About a serial killer in New Bedford in the late
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80s. New Bedford, Massachusetts, which I fucking knew nothing about and now I want to go to.
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but there's a serial killer who's killing sex workers there. All these bodies, like nine bodies
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were found and 11 were counted as possible victims. I'm still listening. So I don't fucking
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know what happens, but it's good. It's called Shallow Graves by Maureen Boyle. That sounds good. Wait, that's an audio book you're listening to?
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Yeah. Yeah. New Bedford. Who knew? I am still watching, totally dedicated to, blown away by, and yet feel so stupid watching Shogun.
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I cannot read those closed captionings as fast as they go. Oh, yeah. I can't keep up.
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And I also can't stare straight ahead long enough to read them, I think. Like you want to be on your phone kind of a thing?
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Slowly sneaking my phone into my line of sight. Karen's phone just snuck into the Zoom as we were sitting here.
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As an example of very, very casually sneaking a look at my phone while I'm trying to read about
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this ancient Japanese warlords. It's so good, though. I mean, it's just so well done.
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Is it? Okay. It's becoming the war of the women, which is like very unexpected. Spoiler alert.
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Did you see this movie from last year that I watched over the weekend that I can't stop
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thinking about. It stars, of course, everyone's favorite hot priest, Andrew Scott. Yeah. And Paul
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Mescal called All of Us Strangers. And it is, did you watch it? No, I've heard about it and I watched
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the two of them do a lot of press junkets, but I didn't watch it. Okay. It is heartbreaking.
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watching watch it to the end basically this man gets to go back and visit his parents who died
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when he was 12 and they just like everything's the same they interact like everything is normal
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they did die when he was 12 and they were meeting their adult son and he gets to like tell them all
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these things about i mean it's just like he gets to have like a reckoning and meanwhile he's falling
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in love. There's this beautiful love story. It's like heart wrenching. Sorry. Is it slightly like
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fantastical? Like his dead parents can't come back somehow. Yes. Oh, those ones get me. I can't
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that one that gets me. This will get you so freaking hard. The last 10 minutes broke my heart.
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Oh, you have to watch it. It's beautiful. It's so beautifully done. It's weird because I thought
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you were going to say Andrew Scott because of Ripley, which is another new Netflix series.
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And it is basically a retelling of the fabulous, the talented Mr. Ripley. Oh, wait.
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I was going to say the fabulous Mr. Ripley. Some would call him. Some probably have called him.
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Some may have referred to him as, but this one's just called Ripley and it's black and
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white. And when I started it, I didn't know anything about it. I started it and I was like, I don't know what's going on.
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And then I, you know, left the house or whatever. And then Bridger's like, have you been watching Ripley?
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And I'm like, no. And he's like, oh, you have to. I was like, is it not boring? And he was like, don't do that.
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That's what I thought. You know, it's so funny because Vince was gone for WrestleMania over the weekend.
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So I put on whatever. I put that on and I knew in five minutes that if I was watching it with Vince, we would have turned it off because we give things five minutes.
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Yes. But it's a slow build, but it's an incredible story, like kind of supernatural.
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so that hooked me yeah and then at towards the end I was like okay I get it and then
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the end the last 10 minutes are wild so I like I would not have finished it so I'm like everyone
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not because I didn't like it because I'm fucking impatient yes because we all we've all had our
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dopamine you know rewired reset just ruined to a degree where we can't really do anything but
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nothing brings joy I'm going to do a parallel this is a fun way to do a recommendation
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If you like a story where somebody who's dead comes back to talk to the people that miss them, then there is a movie.
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Of course, I'm blanking on the name right now. I was about to go, my favorite movie of all time.
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And I'm sure I've actually said this to you before. Back to the future. Listen, let me tell you how it goes.
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Michael J. Fox is dead the entire time. He's a ghost. So is Bruce Willis. no it's a movie called truly madly deeply yes god damn it it's a movie called truly madly deeply
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and i believe it is alejandra are you still on that page i think there's a famous director and
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it's one of his first movies directed by anthony minggela anthony minggela who did the english
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patient oh and the tales did mr ripley oh it's all coming together full circle so yeah that movie
00:11:47
if you have an alone saturday where no one's gonna be around for a while yeah and you like that
00:11:52
feeling of like trick sob we like oh this is kind of a nice little movie and all of a sudden you crying your heart out that truly madly deeply It is so cathartic and amazing Trick sob is the new genre I love that Trick sob
00:12:05
Right? Because you're like, I'm not here for that. What's going on? And then suddenly you're like, oh no, I'm processing eight years of grief.
00:12:12
Perfect. Trick sob. I love it. Can I tell you really quickly something I did that just reminded me because my dad just
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texted me. I was texting with my... I just need to say this because it's so embarrassing.
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I was texting with my sister about cats because that's all we text about. That's our relationship.
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And so I sent her this photo of Moe like sprawled out on this like fake sheepskin rug.
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And I sent her that picture. And it reminded me of the picture that like vintage playgirl picture of Burt Reynolds naked, all hairy, spread out on a bear skin rug.
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So I found the picture, hit send, then realized I had sent that picture with no caption or anything to my dad.
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And then I like deleted it. Because I guess if you catch it soon enough, you can delete a text.
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That's good to know. It's like it's to be really quick. And so I was like, oh, thank God.
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Then the next day, my dad never takes time texting back to me. Like, you know, he's my dad.
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He responds immediately. yeah the next day he wrote something like oh i remember like he didn't know how to respond to it
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for 24 hours had to figure out a way to respond to his daughter sending him a fucking naked
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sexy photo of burt reynolds and then because i didn't delete it fast enough oh shit i'm so sorry
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that's hard that's a tough one of all hardest for marty because what the hell he's just like
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Oh, no. I did a similar thing. I don't know why. Well, my dad and I over Christmas were just like churning through shows.
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And so we're trying to think of something to watch. And I was like, wait a second.
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And I remember seeing the trailer from the most recent Jackass movie where they have a girl pitching softballs into their nuts, essentially.
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And that's making people stand and basically just get softballs pitched at them.
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But this girl, she pitches like 100 miles an hour. Like, it's crazy. So she alone is really good.
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And then it's like a prank on them, which is very funny. But we start at the beginning of the movie.
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So within 10 minutes, all of a sudden, we're seeing full on buttholes. Like, because they're trying to do some trick where if this happens that way.
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And my dad goes, hey, Jesus, can we turn this off? where I'm like, I cannot believe I made my dad sit through this. It's jackass. What do you think
00:14:41
it was going to be like handholding and fucking? No, but I thought it would be like funny print,
00:14:46
like in the, whatever they started with was a little lighter and it was like funny and whatever.
00:14:50
Yeah. They'll do like paper cuts on your mouth or something stupid like that. Yeah. Or just like,
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just people getting like t-shirt gun to the back of the head as they walk out of the bathroom.
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And you're like, yeah, great, great, great, great. Funny. Big gotchas. It's just getting us through the next three hours.
00:15:07
Then we can talk about it later. Yeah. He thinks things like that are funny, but I did not realize they were like that gross.
00:15:13
I didn't know. I was going to say immediate balls. Like that's what I thought you were going to say.
00:15:18
Just immediate balls. Basically, but worse kind of. It was like normally when my dad, when sexual stuff comes up in TV shows or movies, my dad,
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he acts like he's mad and he like storms out. Come on. Okay, I guess you're uncomfortable.
00:15:34
But this one, he was more like, why are you doing this to me? Like, you're like, I saw this great movie.
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Let me show this to you, Dad. Dad, this is one of my favorite films of all time.
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And I wanted you to share the art. Jesus. Poor Jim. Poor home Jim. But I swear to God, I remember seeing that Burt Reynolds layout.
00:15:55
Oh, wait, was it in Playgirl? or was it? It was in like Cosmopolitan or something.
00:15:59
Oh, okay. I think he was partially covered up, but like mostly nude. You can't see his dong,
00:16:04
but it's definitely like suggestive. He's on like a bare skin rug, I think. Yeah.
00:16:09
Yeah. And he's just so hairy and it's just so 70s. It's very funny. He might as well,
00:16:16
like I remember it, but this probably isn't factually true that he has a toothpick in his mouth.
00:16:20
Oh, I could see that. I could see that. But maybe that's just Smokey and the Bandit
00:16:24
And I'm combining the two. Well, don't send that to your parents, everyone. Don't be like me.
00:16:32
Hey, we have a podcast network. You want to hear some highlights about it? We'd love to tell you about it.
00:16:37
Our newest true crime limited series, The Butterfly King is a bona fide hit. Thank you all so much for listening.
00:16:43
And just know the fifth episode is out now. It's an amazing journey. Please go take it.
00:16:49
We really think you're going to love it. And this week's guest on Adulting with Michelle Boutot
00:16:54
and Jordan Carlos is Black Thought, the co-founder and lead emcee of the legendary Roots crew.
00:17:00
Over on Buried Bones, Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes embark on the first episode in a
00:17:04
two-parter based in 1870s Connecticut, where a bride-to-be goes missing before her big day.
00:17:12
And hey, guess what? If you haven't heard, we're on TikTok. Do you guys know that?
00:17:16
TikTok. Last week, we launched our first new series. It's called Sinkhole Saturdays,
00:17:21
where Karen reviews popular sinkholes. I love it. So please be sure to follow My Favorite Murder on TikTok
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so you don't miss out. And if you have a sinkhole in your area you'd like me to review,
00:17:33
please send it over to, I guess, myfavoritemurder at gmail.com. Or tag us on TikTok.
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I don't know how that works. Yeah, social media would probably be the fastest way.
00:17:44
Or snail mail. And lastly, the Here's the Thing Fuck Everything mug with Vanishing Ink is back in the MFM store.
00:17:53
Do you work at a church? Here your chance to be dirty Head to myfavoritemurder and shop today Yay Woo I Nancy Glass host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast
00:18:06
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
00:18:15
The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:18:22
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:18:33
Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Bombs. So I'm Leanne.
00:18:38
Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hip since high school.
00:18:42
Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips.
00:18:47
This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.
00:18:52
With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO.
00:18:59
Well, then you got them. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:05
I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl. This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now.
00:19:11
Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all.
00:19:19
As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity.
00:19:27
You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:38
You're first. Okay, great. Okay, so about a year ago, I got a tweet from Tessa, whose handle is Teska on Twitter.
00:19:50
I'm just calling it Twitter. recommending this story. And it was one that is from the Bay Area that I had never heard of before.
00:19:57
And it truly is, it's like a horror movie. And it happened in this very wealthy area
00:20:07
in the 80s to two girls who were exactly my age at the time. So it's very close to home.
00:20:16
and also it's the kind of thing where you go, how did I never hear of this when it was literally an hour away from where I grew up?
00:20:25
Wow, it's chilling. Yeah. So the main sources I'm gonna use in this story today are an article from SFGate.
00:20:33
So SFGate is like a still like a weekly independent newspaper in the Bay Area that we use all the time
00:20:40
because they write really good true crime articles and they do kind of like true crime from the past
00:20:46
in the Bay Area. They cover a lot of really good stories. And there's a writer named Katie Dowd,
00:20:51
who writes a lot of the articles. So I've quoted Katie Dowd on this podcast multiple times. So
00:20:56
shout out to our partner in true crime, Katie Dowd, for writing for SFGate. She wrote an article
00:21:03
called Murder and Intrigue at California's Last Great Gilded Age Mansion. And I think that right
00:21:10
there tells you everything that you need to know. The rest of the sources are in our show notes
00:21:15
Today, I'm telling you the story of the Carolands Estate Predator. First, we'll talk about the location.
00:21:24
So the Carolands Estate was built in 1914 in Hillsborough, California, which is about 20 miles south of the city, San Francisco.
00:21:34
And it was the brainchild of this woman, Harriet Pullman, was the heir to the Pullman train car fortune.
00:21:42
So you can imagine how much money she had because her dad invented train cars, essentially.
00:21:49
Pullman train cars. And she had married an equally wealthy man named Frank Carolan, and they owned several properties around San Mateo County.
00:22:00
And they lived in a city called Burlingame. But then Burlingame gets too crowded.
00:22:06
There's too many, quote, regular people encroaching on their property. and they're starting to like literally Frank Carolan is complaining to the city that he can
00:22:16
hear other people at his house and he's that makes him mad and the last straw is when the
00:22:22
Burlingame city government asks Frank to build a sidewalk around his polo field then he's like we're getting out of here this is too much this is insanity they want me to pour
00:22:34
cement around my polo field. So they start buying property up in the mountains in Hillsboro. This
00:22:42
truly is, and I think it still is today, it's like basically between Stanford University and San
00:22:48
Francisco. This is like that area kind of along the coast, very elite, incredibly wealthy down
00:22:56
there. So Harriet and Frank buy 554 acres of land up on the highest perch of the hills in Hillsboro.
00:23:04
And the amount of land that they owned and that this estate was on was one sixth of the size of the entire city of Hillsborough.
00:23:15
Wow. So big time. They were big time in it. And basically Harriet had a vision that she was going to put like a Louis XIV inspired French chateau up there on this like on this property.
00:23:30
And it was going to be the quote, the wonder and admiration of America. So she was a rich lady with a dream.
00:23:38
They build it. The estate has 98 rooms. Holy shit. Yeah. Nine full ensuite bedrooms, three 18th century French salons, literally the walls, floors and ceilings of three rooms imported from France.
00:23:56
Oh, my God. Uh-huh. And also during World War I. She wanted this stuff shipped in and she somehow went over and got it there.
00:24:05
Wow. They have a 30,000 volume library, pristine manicured gardens and grounds, an unobscured hilltop view that stretches from Hillsborough all the way to San Francisco on a clear day.
00:24:19
How many clear days are there a year in this area? About 11. But when they're there, you can really see.
00:24:27
You can see up to the city. The construction of this mansion around the time costs a million dollars, which is roughly how much money in today's money.
00:24:37
A million in 1914-ish? Yes, exactly. Almost somewhere around 1920. Jesus, that's got to be 36 million today.
00:24:48
It's 28, but you were kind of close. Okay. A little bit close. So Harriet clearly has a taste for the finer things in life.
00:24:57
She's probably never seen like a hamburger in her life. So she needs all the best around her.
00:25:06
And of course, the Caroland Estates really demonstrates this. I was looking at pictures and you could film any Jane Austen Pride and Prejudice type of remake in this house.
00:25:16
It is like they have the checkerboard floors, you know, the black and white tile floors, crazy huge ceilings with big glass, like skylighty things.
00:25:26
and the grounds that are like perfectly manicured. It's really unbelievable. Grand. It sounds grand.
00:25:33
It's quite grand. So Frank and Harriet move in to Caroland Estates in 1916, but by the time they actually move in,
00:25:42
so they start this plan, work on it for, it's I think four years, two years or four years.
00:25:49
By the time they move in, their relationship is in shambles. They don't ever really spend time together at Caroland.
00:25:55
they end up just living at their own separate houses because they each have their own other
00:26:01
houses. Then in 1923, Frank dies of a heart attack. Harriet remarries in 1925. She spends
00:26:09
the summer at Carolands with her new husband, but then decides it doesn't feel like home.
00:26:14
So she decides to sell it. Now the problem with this, which MC Hammer ran into this exact same
00:26:21
problem when he built a similar mansion is when you build big and crazy like that, it is very hard
00:26:27
to sell. There's not a big pool of people that are like, I also want to spend my money on this exact
00:26:33
type of stuff. Right, right. So several members of the elite consider buying Carol Ann's estate.
00:26:41
The Duke of Windsor and Duchess Wallace Simpson were in the market for a while. American socialite
00:26:46
heiress Barbara Hutton and the Danish Count that she was married to at the time. Congress even
00:26:52
actually thought of buying it in 1939 to use it as the summer house for the White House. Wow.
00:26:58
Which is kind of crazy. Yeah. But none of those plans go through. The land is eventually subdivided
00:27:04
and it leads to more homes in the area. They're kind of mansion-y houses, but they're of course
00:27:11
nothing like the estate, while the Carolands falls into disrepair. In 1950, a real estate
00:27:18
company has plans to buy the estate so they can level it and build basically a little suburban
00:27:23
community up in those hills. But before they can do that, another wealthy heiress named Countess
00:27:30
Lillian Remiard Dandini, who she was the heir, her family was in construction, and they were the
00:27:38
construction company that rebuilt San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake. So she had a couple
00:27:45
nickels to rub together herself. She swoops in, she buys Caroland Estates, and for the next 23
00:27:52
years, she uses it as an event space for the community. She hosts parties, charity galas,
00:27:57
even events for local students. And then when Countess Lillian Remyard Dandini dies in 1973,
00:28:04
she leaves Carolands to the city of Hillsborough so that they will convert it either into a museum
00:28:11
or public library, something like that. But the problem is the upkeep is far too expensive for
00:28:17
the city to handle. It's a gigantic, crazy person's estate. So the city transfers the
00:28:24
ownership to the state of California, but the state of California also neglects it.
00:28:29
They also consider leveling it because it is too expensive. Like the upkeep is too expensive.
00:28:35
But when they announced that they might knock it down, architectural enthusiasts apply for
00:28:41
the Carol lands to receive historical landmark status. And they actually win that status in 1975.
00:28:48
So they can't knock it down. But the government is not willing to spend the money to restore it to its original grandeur.
00:28:55
So for the next 10 years, it just sits there and it is not being tended to or kept, but watched over by security guards.
00:29:06
And that's it. So basically they have people there to make sure no one squats, no one, God forbid people live in this gigantic fucking house.
00:29:16
So it's of course legally off limits and there's people being paid to be posted up there to keep people out of it.
00:29:23
But as you would imagine, it becomes an open secret among teenagers of San Mateo County that some of the security guards will actually give you a tour of this place secretly.
00:29:36
Oh, my God. And that rumor goes around. There's rumors going around that it's happened, that you can go up there, whatever.
00:29:43
And this rumor hits the ears of 16-year-old Janine Grunsell and 17-year-old Lori McKenna.
00:29:51
They junior and seniors at San Mateo High School Janine recently got her driver license and for her birthday the month before which was January 9th 1985 her parents gave her a car And that what she was driving on the morning of Saturday February 5th 1985 when she goes and picks up her friend Lori because they have decided they want to try and go get a tour of Carolands
00:30:16
So together they drive up the hill to the gates of the estate and they approach the security guard on duty that day, a 23-year-old named David Allen Raley.
00:30:26
Raley had just been interviewed by a local journalism student about giving unofficial tours at Carolands.
00:30:31
And in that article, he claimed, quote, you wouldn't believe the things girls offer me in exchange for a tour.
00:30:38
Food, money, sex, anything to get inside. Whoa. So these are the kind of things that we talk about in 2024 and it seems so egregious and insane that he would be saying that and basically like bragging about it.
00:30:53
And then we know that we're at the beginning of a true crime story right now. So this is all bad omens.
00:31:00
But it is so wild that we have just come out of an era where like that kind of thing.
00:31:07
This is a grown man with a job and saying teenage girls have to like give him something to get onto this property.
00:31:13
It's like and he's just like proudly telling, of course, other dudes about it. Yeah.
00:31:18
It's also rumored that David Braley has cornered teen girls during his tours in the past, pressuring them for sexual favors.
00:31:27
He allegedly once asked a girl to go into the safe vault that was in the basement and scream as loud as she could so she could see that sound would not penetrate the walls of the house.
00:31:40
So it's not just like funny, ha ha or cute or flirt. It's all threatening. It's all creepy.
00:31:46
Yeah. It's all like tit for tat and weird. And I think that was also part of like when you were a teenager back in the time, it's like, well, let's just go see. Yeah. It was like dangerous. And yet other people did it. I guess we'll try to do it, too. Yeah. So Janine and Lori drive up. They ask Rayleigh if he will take them on a tour. He agrees. But he tells them that they need to park their car further down the road so no one will know that they're there.
00:32:13
They follow his instructions and then he takes them onto the grounds. He gives them a tour and then the tour ends around noon.
00:32:22
And then Rayleigh pauses cautiously and then he tells the girls he can hear dogs barking and he thinks the police are coming.
00:32:29
So he rushes them down into the basement into that vault. And so they go into the vault.
00:32:37
He tells them they have to hide in there and he's going to basically shut the door.
00:32:42
And then when the police go away, then they can come back out. But the girls are so scared and creeped out by the vault.
00:32:49
They're begging him not to shut the door. He says he won't. But the second they step inside, he shuts it.
00:32:55
Oh, my God. So they're in the vault alone in the dark for like five minutes. And then they can hear him like in a sing song voice calling out Lori's name.
00:33:08
And so the girls demand he let them out. but he says they're only going to get out of there if they take off their clothes.
00:33:15
They refuse. Then he opens the vault door and shows them that he is wielding a knife.
00:33:21
And so the girls strip down to their underwear. He lets them out of the vault. He handcuffs both of them.
00:33:28
He ties Lori to a bench. And at knife point, he forces Janine into the next room and sexually assaults her.
00:33:34
And Lori is forced to sit there and listen to her friend scream. God. Helplessly.
00:33:40
then Rayleigh tells the girls if they stay quiet he'll let them go and then he takes Laurie at
00:33:47
knife point into the other room and assaults her he is much bigger than both of these girls
00:33:52
obviously he has a knife they still try to fight him off as they try to fight him off he starts
00:33:58
stabbing them they're both stabbed dozens of times then Rayleigh beats Laurie over the head
00:34:05
with a claw hammer. And she will later say that she just thought she was going to die.
00:34:12
She says, quote, I kind of waited for the lights to go out. Oh, my God. End quote.
00:34:17
But they don't go out. Rayleigh then ties Janine up with a rope. He wraps Lori up in a carpet,
00:34:23
and then he puts both girls in the trunk of his 1973 Plymouth, and then he goes back to work.
00:34:30
What the fuck? Yeah. So they are in there in his trunk stifling for, you know, it seems like about three hours.
00:34:40
Oh, my God. At one point, a police officer stops by to talk to Rayleigh because Rayleigh was known kind of around town as like a cop worshiper, you know.
00:34:52
So he wanted that, you know, he was like one of those security guard guys that actually wanted to be a cop and was always trying to impress them.
00:34:59
And when Rayleigh's unsuspecting boss comes by to relieve him at 5.15, Rayleigh gets into his car and makes an hour-long drive home where he lives with his sister and his dad in South San Jose.
00:35:13
And Janine and Lori are still in his trunk and they're still alive. Holy shit. When Rayleigh gets home, he parks his car into the garage.
00:35:21
He goes into the house and he watches TV. He eats dinner. He even plays Monopoly with his sister.
00:35:27
Like he just chills out with his family. Oh my God, what a psychopath. And in between doing that, he come out to the garage and check on the girls in the trunk.
00:35:37
At one point, he actually lets them get out and like stretch their legs and he brings them a blanket.
00:35:43
But then he hears a noise and like freaks out and makes them get back in. So it sounds like he obviously like he either really mentally not okay which is I think very safe to assume But also he doesn have a plan which seems kind of dangerous for this person And he tells them stay quiet or my friend Bob will kill you
00:36:09
Like there's somebody in the garage, like watching over them. Of course there's nobody.
00:36:14
So around midnight, while his family is sleeping, Rayleigh sneaks out to his car and drives about
00:36:20
10 miles south to a remote stretch of South San Jose's Silver Creek Road. And there he takes the
00:36:27
girls out of the trunk and then he beats them again. So he gives them like a final beating and
00:36:33
then he throws both of them down a steep ravine. Holy shit. Yeah. Those poor girls. Janine and
00:36:40
Lori land in a shallow creek at the bottom of this ravine and locals would sometimes dump garbage
00:36:46
down there. Like that's how he knew that that spot was there. It's dark. It's near freezing.
00:36:53
It's starting to rain. Janine and Lori are so afraid that Rayleigh is waiting for them at the
00:36:58
top of the ravine that they don't move. They just stay exactly where they are until the sun comes up
00:37:04
the next morning. And then the girls start to muster the courage to try to go find help because
00:37:10
they know he's not there anymore. But Janine's injuries are much too severe for her to climb
00:37:15
the ravine, Lori isn't in good shape. Her hands have horrible lacerations all over them, but she
00:37:22
realizes her climbing up that ravine is their only chance. So what she does is she commando crawls
00:37:29
up the ravine using her elbows. This is Mary Vincent stuff. Oh my God. This is Mary Vincent's
00:37:35
story, which is the Mary Vincent story is so upsetting and disturbing and should have never
00:37:42
happened. There's no world we should be fucking living in where you and I are going, this is Mary
00:37:48
Vincent's story about yet another teenage girl or two teenage girls. Like it's so disgusting.
00:37:57
It's so insane. You want to know why women talk about true crime and are interested in true crime
00:38:02
because what the fuck is this? That's, that's why, how are, how is this happening? How are we
00:38:08
Mary Vinson-ing again. How can a fucking security guard joke about teenage girls giving him sexual
00:38:16
favors to get a tour as if it's not a big deal and it's fine? Like that's, you know, that's the
00:38:23
problem. It took all of us a really long time to put it together where it's like those jokes,
00:38:29
a peeping Tom, like all of the red flags that actually amount to women being murdered really
00:38:36
matter and need to be paid attention to and need to be discussed so everyone knows what they are.
00:38:41
If you go to a place where a guy thinks it's really hilarious to threaten your life,
00:38:45
don't go anywhere with that guy ever again. Tell other people about it. Like it was that kind of
00:38:50
thing where in, you know, the eighties, like that idea of like, oh, well, if you said anything about
00:38:56
that guy, God, don't be such a bitch about it. Oh, okay. But he could be practicing. You never
00:39:02
know. He could be the funniest security guard you ever met, or he could be practicing.
00:39:08
I'm sorry I'm lecturing you so much this episode, Georgia. Oh, is that directed at me?
00:39:13
Yeah, this is all on you. This is all your responsibility. Okay. So Lori McKenna crawls
00:39:21
up a ravine with her hands lacerated so badly that later she will have to be in surgery for
00:39:28
hours with the amount of cuts, defensive wounds that she has on her hands. But she gets to the top.
00:39:34
She waves down a car and they drive away. It's literally exactly Mary Vincent's story.
00:39:40
And then a second car comes up and drives away. And finally, two guys in a pickup truck pull over.
00:39:47
They call the police. They basically get it taken care of. They try to comfort her and she freaks
00:39:54
out where it's like, no, no, don't try to comfort anybody. Like, let's just get her to the hospital.
00:40:01
So Lori spends the next three days at Santa Teresa Hospital undergoing surgeries on her hands and
00:40:07
wrists. Janine Grinzel makes it into surgery, but she ends up dying on the operating table.
00:40:15
Janine Grinzel suffered a total of 41 stab wounds, a skull fracture, blood loss,
00:40:21
shock and hypothermia. She was 16 years old when she died. Oh my God, a poor baby angel.
00:40:27
And Lori got stabbed alike. I think Lori's stab wounds were in the 30s. Jesus. But still an insane amount. Like this man ravaged these two girls.
00:40:39
Yeah. The only real positive in this story is that Janine and Lori were both able to identify
00:40:44
their attacker as they were arriving at the hospital. So the police were given David Raley's
00:40:50
name, and he was arrested within hours of the girls being brought in. On February 6th, David
00:40:58
Raley is arraigned on first-degree murder, attempted murder, two counts of sexual assault
00:41:02
with intent to rape, and two counts of kidnapping. And because of the gruesome torture involved with
00:41:07
the attack, the death penalty is on the table. So his trial begins in March of 1987. Of course,
00:41:15
He tries to defend himself by saying he wasn't the only security guard who gave tours, that Janine wouldn't have died if she had gotten medical attention sooner.
00:41:25
Like weird, horrible, disrespectful things to be saying just to try to throw up a smokescreen.
00:41:32
I hate that. I hate that. It's horrible. And then the families who absolutely have to be there, they're like standing on witness for their dead daughter or their attacked daughter. And they have to sit through that.
00:41:45
Yeah. That's disgusting. Like just fucking plead guilty, dude. And like, let them go on with their lives.
00:41:53
But I mean the idea of like she wouldn have died if she gotten to the hospital sooner Right It all you dude It all on you There no you can parse it that way after the fact So the argument doesn work On April 22nd
00:42:09
1987, the jury convicts David Allen Raley of first degree murder, attempted murder,
00:42:15
and kidnapping with special circumstances. A separate trial is held on May 5th to determine
00:42:20
whether or not Rayleigh will receive the death penalty. The jury's deadlocked. A judge declares a mistrial on May 15th.
00:42:27
He's retried the following year. He is given the death penalty on May 17th, 1988.
00:42:33
Years later, he will attempt to appeal this decision, but it is denied. And David Rayleigh remains on death row
00:42:41
in San Quentin to this day. What? Yeah. In the wake of the attack, Lori McKenna is overcome with grief.
00:42:49
she feels like she'll never be happy again. I mean, she's a teenager. She was a senior in high
00:42:55
school when this happened. So of course she spends some time just basically staying in her house.
00:43:04
Then she wants to get away because she wants to get away from the area where she's in that
00:43:10
reminds her of it so much. So she has some friends that go to UC Santa Barbara. So she moves
00:43:15
down to Santa Barbara to go to Santa Barbara City College to basically kind of start over and like
00:43:21
start over fresh. And it actually works for a little while. I mean, Santa Barbara would a
00:43:27
gorgeous place to be able to go to and like the perfect vibe. But it turns out that Lori had to
00:43:34
have gallbladder surgery related to problems from some of her injuries. So she ended up having to
00:43:41
move home because she basically had continuing medical issues from the attack. Eventually,
00:43:47
grief does loosen its grip on Lori. She starts living a more normal life, but she does start to
00:43:53
get crippling anxiety attacks, of course. She knows she can't just will the trauma away, so she starts
00:44:00
seeing a therapist. And over time, she gains the tools she needs to move beyond the horrible thing
00:44:08
that she lived through and basically start trying to live the life that she deserves.
00:44:12
She ends up marrying a retired baseball pitcher from the San Francisco Giants. They end up moving to Bogart, Georgia.
00:44:20
They remodel a big, beautiful home and they raise two daughters together. And the principal owners of the Giants, Ann and Charles B. Johnson, a couple billionaires,
00:44:31
they go and they buy the Carolands estates and they spend millions of dollars restoring it.
00:44:36
they actually live there for 10 years and then they turn it over to the Carol Ann's foundation.
00:44:43
Today, free tours are offered. There's a lottery system. So you have to sign up for the lottery.
00:44:48
And then if you get in, you can get a tour of this estate. And it has been renovated back to its like original pristine condition. It's really incredible looking. It
00:45:00
would be a very cool tour to take. So there was, I found this quote from this LA Times article from
00:45:07
May of 1988, which was two years after the attacks. And they were interviewing Lori McKenna.
00:45:14
And it says, out of the whole ordeal, the death of her friend will probably have the most lasting
00:45:20
effect. Janine Grinzel's birthday, January 9th, will always be the toughest day of the year for
00:45:25
her, McKenna believes. I will always be sad on that day, she said. I remember her last birthday.
00:45:31
She had just gotten her car and she was so happy. McKenna still finds it hard to believe that she
00:45:36
survived and Janine Grinzel didn't. Janine Grinzel was a fighter, she said. And then a little later
00:45:43
on, Lori goes on to say, it's not that I'm a basket case, but they just don't know how to deal
00:45:48
with it. Oh, she was talking about whether or not she was going to have a boyfriend, which is such a
00:45:53
creepy kind of question that maybe a reporter asked her two years after this attack that I
00:46:00
edited it out. But then you kind of have to know that. So creepy. But she basically is saying,
00:46:04
I'm not a basket case. They just don't know how to deal with it. People don't want to deal with
00:46:09
yucky things. But what happened to me is a part of me. It's not something I can change. There's
00:46:15
nothing I want to hide. Wow. And that is the story of the Carol Ann's estate attacks and the murder
00:46:20
of Janine Grinzel. Holy shit. That is heartbreaking and infuriating. And they had a warning about him, the public.
00:46:31
But it's a journalism student. So we don't know if that article like went out and everyone read it and said that was fine.
00:46:38
And that was a time where that wouldn't happen anyway. Because there were so many of those things
00:46:46
that just weren't in anybody's awareness of like, oh, this is very, very red flag behavior.
00:46:53
Wow. That is awful and great job telling it. Thank you. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
00:47:06
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
00:47:14
The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:47:22
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:47:32
Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Moms. So I'm Leanne.
00:47:37
This is my best friend Janet. And we have been joined at the Hipsons High School.
00:47:41
Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later. We're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips.
00:47:47
This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.
00:47:52
With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO.
00:47:58
Well, then you got it. Listen to Soccer Months. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
00:48:02
or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief.
00:48:10
The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history.
00:48:19
Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby.
00:48:26
Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses.
00:48:34
I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it
00:48:41
to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt.
00:48:51
It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong.
00:48:56
Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby. You can binge all episodes now on iHeart Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:49:06
All right. Well, let's take a fucking sharp left then. Get out of this. Let's take a fucking 20 minute break and just have some silence.
00:49:16
Let's have some snacks and some silence, some deep breaths. I'm going to tell you about a spy.
00:49:23
Okay. A guy who tried to become a spy. His attempt was at the turn of the 21st century. So early 2000s that showed America just how dangerous computers and the Internet can be without proper protections. This is the story of Brian Regan, the spy who couldn't spell.
00:49:42
Do you know the comic Brian Regan? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Truly one of the funniest human beings on the planet.
00:49:48
Like so one of the best standup comics of all time. He's the one that goes, yeah, you too.
00:49:53
You too. When you say you too back to a person that's like, enjoy your donut. And you go, you too.
00:50:00
Well, this is it. Turns out he was a spy at one point. Did you know that? Love it.
00:50:07
I know. The main sources used in today's story include an article from CNN. And this guy also wrote a book about this case.
00:50:16
His name is Udigit Bhattachary. And he was also in an episode of Wicked Words with Kate Winkler Dawson in November of 2022 discussing the case.
00:50:27
So all this stuff is from him. There's also an article, a talk given for the International Spy Museum that he did.
00:50:35
His book is called The Spy Who Couldn't Spell. That's like his catchphrase. Cool.
00:50:39
So all the other sources are listed in the show notes. So here we go. On December 4th in the year 2000, that was what, five years ago or so?
00:50:50
Kind of. December 4th in the year 2000, Special Agent Stephen Carr of the FBI received some coded letters that have been sent to the Libyan consulate and written by an anonymous source.
00:51:04
He decodes the letter and the opening of the letter reads, quote, I am a Middle East, North African analyst for the Central Intelligence Agency.
00:51:13
I am willing to commit espionage against the U.S. by providing your country with highly classified information.
00:51:21
I have top security clearance. I have access to documents, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:51:26
Like basically like, hey, Libyan consulate, do you guys want some spy material? Sorry, you said this was written in an email?
00:51:34
No, it's a letter, coded letter. Snail mail? Snail mail. It's coded. Special agent Stephen Carr figures it out and sees that.
00:51:41
Okay, okay. And there are also 23 pages of copied secret information, like a tease to prove that the sender actually has all that information.
00:51:50
It's just like, here's a taste. Boom. And they're mostly aerial images of the Middle Eastern military sites taken by U.S. satellites.
00:51:58
So that is like not for enemy hands, essentially. And remember, this is like early 2000s.
00:52:03
So it's like not a great time. It's not a good time. No. Not a good time, Stephen.
00:52:07
And so Stephen Carr realizes that he has a real spy threat on his hands. So he gets to work trying to figure out who this mysterious sender could be.
00:52:16
There's a marking on the image that shows they're printed from something called Intel Link,
00:52:21
which is basically a private internet server that only select government and military officials
00:52:26
with the proper security clearance can access. So Carr from this believes the spy is a government insider.
00:52:33
And the fact that some of the sample information is top secret also helps narrow it down to a pool of suspects to these individuals with top secret clearance.
00:52:42
This anonymous person is legit. But even that number is in the tens of thousands.
00:52:46
So then Carr looks at the type of code being used, like this person had made up a code.
00:52:52
And the sender uses something called brevity codes, which are two character shorthands for bigger words.
00:52:58
So like AP would be the word anonymous. I don't know how coding works. Don't try to explain coding to me.
00:53:07
I'm gonna. I love it. It's like AP is for anonymous. Cause you know, that P in anonymous is really,
00:53:13
yeah, they're really, I mean, that code, I would never be able to break it. I'd be like, what?
00:53:19
AP stands for anonymous? We wouldn't be code breakers. You and I, I don't think.
00:53:24
How? Just be arguing it the whole time. Whatever it is. This kind of code is common practice for US military.
00:53:30
So Carr's like, okay, this person also has a military background, just like gathering information.
00:53:34
Then there's a third clue that Carr makes note of. The letter of instructions and the brevity code.
00:53:41
So like the letter that this anonymous person wrote is riddled with spelling errors.
00:53:47
And so it's like this person's really smart, obviously. They have top secret clearance.
00:53:50
But how could someone that smart also fail to use spell check or like not spell very well And the errors are so egregious that when Carr reaches out to the CIA and NSA thinking perhaps the sender can come from one of the two departments they shut him down
00:54:05
They're like, we would never hire someone who spells so poorly. Yeah. With no leads, the search goes on for a couple months,
00:54:12
but Carr finds no suspects. So he turns back to the documents themselves for clues.
00:54:16
The digital forensics teams are able to determine that the documents came from the NRO
00:54:21
in Chantilly, Virginia, which is the National Reconnaissance Office. So like high level security.
00:54:29
And when Carr investigates the personnel there, it isn't long before the pattern of spelling errors
00:54:34
point him to his prime suspect, a man in his late 30s named Brian Regan. So essentially like his spelling errors
00:54:44
are what got him caught. So embarrassing. I know, I've been there, I've been there.
00:54:48
There's so many people on the internet that would get caught. Oh yeah. Yeah. Loose and lose, breathe and breath.
00:54:54
That's right. That's right. It's amazing. So let me tell you about Brian Regan, not the comedian. He's born on October 23rd,
00:55:02
1962 to Irish immigrants. He grows up on Long Island, New York. The thing is he is severely
00:55:09
dyslexic and that's why his spelling is so egregiously poor. And he also has some odd
00:55:16
personality traits. He has memory lapses and little things that to the outsider make him seem
00:55:23
less intelligent than he actually is. He is very smart. And he's generally pretty socially awkward
00:55:28
as well. So he doesn't really fit in. He's bullied for those reasons. He might not be very popular
00:55:33
socially, but he does do really well in school. He is smart. He excels in math and sciences.
00:55:39
In 1980, he takes his talents to the US Air Force, where he works as a signals intelligence analyst,
00:55:45
which is someone who intercepts signal transmissions in an effort to gather intel.
00:55:51
So like, hey, you got to be smart to do that. Yeah, I would hope. He serves during the first Gulf War and is a standout success.
00:55:57
He earns several accommodations for his work. In 1995, Brian is assigned to the NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office,
00:56:05
and he works on a team that manages the U.S.'s spy satellites. He does really well here too,
00:56:12
But all his talents and hard work still don't earn him the respect of his coworkers.
00:56:17
And this is pretty sad. He's still socially awkward. His dyslexia bleeds into his daily communications in his emails because they're riddled with spelling errors.
00:56:26
So even as an adult, he still gets picked on and is the butt of people's jokes. Yeah.
00:56:33
And worse than that, his supervisors, while they value his work, they don't value his personality.
00:56:38
So he's routinely given average evaluation scores. He isn't promoted as he would be otherwise.
00:56:46
And it's really upsetting for Brian. And by 1999, he's also found himself in a lot of debt because of his bad spending habits.
00:56:55
And he, you know, he's not getting those raises and those promotions as well. And he and his wife Annette have three kids together and a fourth on the way.
00:57:04
And he's the sole breadwinner of the family. So things aren't great. I mean, I used to know someone that they would say a thing of like, you do it if you wanted
00:57:13
to kind of that was that kind of thing where it's like, and I'm not saying when you feel
00:57:18
alienated, oftentimes the more you try to fix it, the worse you make it. That becomes a spiral because you have an agenda.
00:57:28
People don't like agendas. You're trying to say, don't think of me this way. Think of me this way.
00:57:32
People go, ew, what are you talking about? And recoil more. that piece of it is very sad and difficult but he has a marriage and children so he's like a grown
00:57:43
man yeah he has a life it sounds like it's just it sucks it sucks and it's you know it just seems
00:57:49
like he's maybe not neurotypical and so you know in the 90s and still today it's you're just he's
00:57:56
treated differently yeah and it sucks and he's clearly very smart and just doesn't learn the
00:58:00
same way other people do. And so therefore people think he's stupid. It's just like, it sucks.
00:58:06
It's insulting. And it's kind of like any other problem, if it was on paper, he could fix it.
00:58:11
Right. This is the kind of thing that has that social nuance where he can't fix it and he's
00:58:16
making it worse. Right. Exactly. Or it just is getting worse. Yeah. So Brian's set to retire from the Air Force in August of 2000. I guess, I don't know how that
00:58:27
works. He's only in his late 30s. So I don't know how retirement works in the Air Force.
00:58:31
You just get to leave when you want to. Yeah. He has a pension, but the pressure of paying off his
00:58:36
debts may be too much for his retirement plan to handle. So it's not going to cover it. With no
00:58:41
promotion prospects and little hopes of finding another job that pays him the same or more,
00:58:46
because his field is very niche. And also, again, his social awkwardness makes him a tough interview
00:58:52
and higher, Brian's back is against the wall. That coupled with co-workers who undermine him
00:58:57
at every turn stirs up a lot of resentment in Brian. He knows he's smart, much smarter than
00:59:03
he's given credit for, but perhaps has a little too much confidence in his abilities. And this
00:59:08
combination of anger and arrogance grows to dangerous heights. He comes up with a plan
00:59:14
that can both help him pay off his debts and show the world just how smart he really is.
00:59:19
So there's like, you know, reasoning behind here more than just getting money. It's ironic though.
00:59:25
Why? Because it's like going, I'm going to show everybody how smart I am by doing the fucking
00:59:29
stupidest thing. Like anytime I hear a story where it's like, they got caught selling secrets to whatever
00:59:35
enemy. Yeah. And just like, yeah, of course you would. That's the one thing they're paying attention to.
00:59:41
Yeah. And I'm going to go on to tell you how he did it. And it's not very well. Okay.
00:59:46
Is the point. So yes, you are correct. Also I want to have an image because when I have an image in my head of a spy I think of someone I don know like nerdy and like bookish right I think of Inspector Gadget immediately Exactly Yeah This guy looks like a totally normal average Joe like someone you see at like
01:00:06
what's that Hot Wings restaurant? Well, there's a bunch around town. Just like at a sports bar, like a normal dude,
01:00:13
like your brother-in-law's friend from college. Like he just looks like a normal guy.
01:00:17
He's got a goatee, you know, he's not bookish. Buffalo Wild Wings? Yes, thank you, babe.
01:00:22
God, that was driving me insane. everyone was yelling it okay so brian agrees to retire from the nro and the air force in august of
01:00:30
2000 but before he does in 1999 he's like let me gather some intelligence so he uses his top secret
01:00:37
security clearance permissions and downloads a bunch of confidential information from that intel
01:00:43
link site but while the network is secure the people with access to it aren't monitored at all
01:00:49
They're like, once you get your security clearance, we trust you. Goodbye. Good luck.
01:00:54
Yeah, good luck. Brian's plan is to steal as much sensitive information as he can before his retirement,
01:00:59
then reach out to foreign dignitaries to try and sell that information. Just kind of get out there, do some icebreakers, pass your card around.
01:01:07
It's me, the guy with the info. The guy you met at the bar at Buffalo Wild Wings?
01:01:12
He has got connections. The guy that keeps whispering at Buffalo Wild Wings where you can't hear anything
01:01:18
because there's 25 TVs on with all the sports at once. He keeps talking about White Russian and going,
01:01:23
eh, eh, eh, see, got a White Russian spy. Okay, so it's obviously a huge risk, but the money he could charge
01:01:31
for such espionage services is massive. He gathers all this information and in total, when he does go forward with it,
01:01:39
he asks for a total of $13 million. Ooh. Yeah. So it's the first time anyone on American soil
01:01:45
has realized the potential of stealing digital information. Because remember, this shit's all new, guys at home, young ones.
01:01:52
This is the beginning of data mining. That's right. This is before Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning.
01:01:56
So pulling this off would really make Brian a pioneer and like give him a name without
01:02:01
naming him because he's trying to be a spy. And the process of stealing the documents is really easy.
01:02:07
All he has to do is print out whatever he wants during the workday. He stuffs it in the bottom of his gym bag and just walks out the door.
01:02:12
No security checks or anything. It's so easy that he's able to do it for months and months.
01:02:17
And once he's got a solid collection of documents, videotapes, CD-ROMs, etc., he wraps the materials
01:02:22
up in garbage bags, seals them in Tupperware, and drives out in the middle of the night to
01:02:28
two different DC area state parks and then fucking buries that shit. Dude. This is his plan.
01:02:35
And then here's you and your friend drinking in the park that night. You stumble upon him.
01:02:39
Here goes the international thriller. I mean, Jesus Christ, be more suspicious with your Tupperware and your burying.
01:02:49
He uses night vision goggles even. No. He's having a little adventure on his own is what's happening.
01:02:57
He is. He buries the packages. He writes down the coordinates of each package's location.
01:03:03
And then once, so the plan is that once a buyer bites, he'll hand over the coordinates and then they can go dig up the Tupperware.
01:03:11
Like geocaching. Exactly. But with horrible weapons. Right. Okay. And the buyers he's targeting, NVD, are just Libya, Iraq, and Iran.
01:03:23
You know. You know, some of the big boys. And also, like, people you don't want to be fucking around with.
01:03:29
Well, not solo. Not as an indie salesman. Indie spy is not a thing. No. That seems dangerous as hell.
01:03:39
You need support. You do. You do. So, of course, yeah. And the problem is he doesn't have any pre-existing relationships with foreign entities.
01:03:47
Like, no, he's an average dude. He doesn't like meet people at galas. Like he doesn't go to galas, you know.
01:03:52
He's, again, goes to Buffalo Wild Wings. I don't know if it existed back then, but let's say.
01:03:56
He's literally cold calling Libya and being like, I think I have something interesting for you.
01:04:02
Just call me back. So basically, that's what he does. He cold calls with letters, cold letters.
01:04:09
He writes up code. He sends out three different letters from three different places in case one's intercepted or whatever the fuck.
01:04:15
And fortunately for Brian, all three envelopes do make it safely to his first target, the Libyan consulate.
01:04:21
They do fucking make it there. Right. Unfortunately, the recipient, an anonymous person, receives that letter and sends it to the FBI.
01:04:33
So he's trying to be a spy and a fucking spy in the Libyan consulate receives the letter and is like, boom, spy versus spy.
01:04:42
Oh, so it is. It's like an American spy that's already set in there. Maybe. Yeah.
01:04:47
Or someone who's like, maybe we shouldn't like stir this pot. But the person who sends it to the FBI is never identified.
01:04:53
So I think it's another spy. Or if it's just like a guy that's like, hey, look. Yeah.
01:04:58
Yeah. We're just trying to get by in this world. You should know. We don't want this bullshit.
01:05:02
Yeah. What are you doing? You guys are gigantic. We don't want this shit from you.
01:05:07
This looks like a trap. I'm not fucking stupid. Here, FBI, try again. Like, who knows?
01:05:14
Hey, FBI, come get your boy, as they like to say. Exactly. So that's where Special Agent Stephen Carr comes in.
01:05:21
He figures out it's Brian a couple of months later. And so he's like, this is our dude.
01:05:26
Let's get him. So in April 2001, Brian had left his job. and he still needs to work though.
01:05:34
So he starts working with the defense contractor TRW, which often works with the NRO where he used to work.
01:05:40
So essentially it's a way for him to get back into those old offices where he got all that information
01:05:46
because he still wants to work there because he still wants to get more information.
01:05:50
By May, 2001, he's just waiting for his security clearance to be reinstated so he can get back to the offices And so Stephen Carr is like yo NRO So here what I want you to do Grant Brian his clearance tell him all is well and he go back to work and we can monitor him
01:06:07
from there. And like, that's how we're going to get all our, you know, evidence. The NRA is like,
01:06:12
fuck no, we're not in the, we're not in the game of hiring like potential spies. And finally they
01:06:18
go back and forth and they're like, okay, you can do it for 120 days, get what you need. That's it.
01:06:23
So they rig up his computer so that every keystroke is recorded and monitored. There is a hidden camera in his office.
01:06:30
And on top of that car and the FBI agents tail Brian outside of work. So he's being watched around the clock.
01:06:36
So they're on his tail. Sure enough, like the day he gets back to work at the NRO headquarters,
01:06:42
he starts downloading top secret files again. Immediately. Just doesn't even have a cup of coffee.
01:06:48
It just goes straight, straight to his desk. That's right. this time he's downloading aerial shots of missile sites in the no-fly zone over northern iraq
01:06:58
along with other aerial surveillance shots of weapons depots and other missile sites so like
01:07:04
shit we should not be giving to the fucking our enemy you know what i mean he's definitely not
01:07:09
starting small that's for sure he's not like slowly feeding them anything he's just like
01:07:14
let's go for the big guns and get out i don't know about you but i'm anti-war we're pacifists
01:07:19
but still you can't do this. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like this is bad for everyone.
01:07:27
Yeah. And now it also appears that he wants to expand his pool of potential buyers to include
01:07:31
our friends, China. Oh yeah. That'll expand it quite a bit. Right. So like really bad.
01:07:38
They find that he goes to the library and when he's there, he does all this stuff on the computer
01:07:44
and the FBI is like, what is he doing? He leaves open his browser at the public library and they're
01:07:51
able to just go back, back, back and see everything he had looked at. Sir, sir. What they find is that
01:07:57
he's been searching for the addresses of Libyan and Iraqi embassies in Europe. And they figure
01:08:05
out that he's like, fuck it. I'm just going to go straight fucking there. Like he didn't get a bite.
01:08:09
Nothing happened when he sent out the letters to the Libyan embassy. So he's like, I'm going to go
01:08:13
straight to the source in Europe. So they just can't believe he's brazen or confident or arrogant
01:08:21
enough to do this. But they're like, oh no, we got to keep an eye on him. And then to do it at
01:08:27
the library. Yeah. Where it's like, hey, people are trying to do their history report. Can you
01:08:32
clear the computer, please? And take your international intrigue somewhere else? It's
01:08:39
insane. That's like spy school day one. Like clear your browser history, bro. Keep it on your
01:08:45
personal laptop. They don't have those yet, though. Oh, you can only get like an old Mac at the
01:08:49
library. That's why he's going there. Right. Or like, yeah, he doesn't want to do it on his Dell
01:08:53
at home. So they're like, oh, no, he's going to go to Europe. So basically, when someone with a
01:09:00
security clearance as high as Brian's wants to leave the country, they can't just go on a vacay.
01:09:06
They have to have a sit down interview with the head of their government department.
01:09:11
The NRO then has to know specifics of the trip, the location, the timing, the reason for the trip.
01:09:15
It's all on record. You're not just allowed to go to Paris for the fucking Christmas or whatever.
01:09:20
So Brian doesn't want to go through this shit, obviously. So he lies and tells his supervisors that he's taking his kids on a family vacation to Orlando, Florida through like from August at late August.
01:09:32
He's like, I need some time off. We're just going to go to Orlando. High summer in Orlando.
01:09:37
Can't beat it. Do you like stepping into a hot, hot, steamy shower, but actually wearing clothes and being outside in public?
01:09:45
Welcome to Orlando. Do you want to make out with a mosquito? Hi. So on the day he's set to leave, August 23rd, 2001, obviously the FBI are like, we need to get him before he leaves the country.
01:09:57
Right. So they are able to gather just enough evidence from their surveillance of Brian to justify an arrest and get their arrest warrant.
01:10:04
They get him just in time for his flight. They show up at Washington Dulles Airport that afternoon and apprehend him. They place him under arrest. They go through his belongings. They find a manila folder containing four sheets filled with various codes, a piece of folded up paper hidden between the inner and outer soles of his shoes with the addresses for several Chinese embassies and consulates in various European countries.
01:10:30
and just take a bunch of other coded stuff. So like, clearly that's what he's going to do.
01:10:36
Sorry, he wrote down the embassy addresses, folded up the piece of paper and stuck it into the inside of his shoe.
01:10:43
Uh-huh. It doesn't seem to me he has like the spy training that like I've seen on cable television.
01:10:49
Yes. However, the date is August 23rd, 2001. This is before, right? This is right before security at airports is about to go haywire.
01:11:03
Yes. So it's actually a little easier. A little lax. Okay. Yeah. So faced with all this evidence against him, the smart thing for Brian to do at this point
01:11:13
would be to try and cut a plea deal with the federal government because espionage charges
01:11:17
are severe. So he really should try to do anything he can to lessen a potential sentence.
01:11:22
But Brian's cockiness gets the better of him. He's convinced he's smart enough to outwit the FBI.
01:11:28
So instead of fessing up to his crimes, he tries blackmailing the U.S. government.
01:11:33
Yes. There we go. There it is. Doubles down. Solutions. He issues a statement through his lawyer that he's got, quote, secrets buried out there that could start a war, end quote.
01:11:46
And then the only way and he says the only way he'll reveal his hiding place is if he's guaranteed a lesser sentence.
01:11:53
So he's essentially like, I'll give it up. with a lesser sentence, not I'll give it up and then I get a lesser sentence. It's,
01:12:00
I get a lesser sentence and then I'll give it up. And they don't fucking like that.
01:12:03
Yeah, because he's not in charge. It's like, Brian, sir. Yeah. No, your stance is inaccurate to the scenario.
01:12:11
Yeah. Of course, the FBI and the Department of Justice don't fuck around with blackmailing traitors.
01:12:17
That's not in their rule book. No. Instead, they tap FBI cryptanalyst, who's a person who deciphers codes without a key.
01:12:25
So like the smartest guy at any party, I'm sure. Who I bet can spell real good. Oh, yeah.
01:12:31
His name's Daniel Olson. And they're like, try and crack this. This is Brian's code.
01:12:35
Find the very documents. We'll do it our fucking selves. Do you know Daniel Olson is the guy to find at that cocktail party?
01:12:42
Yes. Like, probably not easy to access. Probably a bit of an introvert. Yeah. But if you happen by him near like the cheese tray.
01:12:50
Yeah. And figure out the right topic. You're in for it. Can you imagine? Daniel Olson is a gift.
01:12:57
I just picture him. He's the guy who wears the like suit jackets with the elbow patches.
01:13:02
Yeah. Right. That's right. But also he has kind of floppy hair. He's kind of like, oh, I don't, I can't remember where I parked my car, but here's the answer
01:13:11
to the mysteries of the universe. He's always losing his keys. However, yeah, he knows that time is relative and how it's relative.
01:13:20
Exactly. He knows exactly what Einstein was talking about in a way that most people don't.
01:13:24
He also is like looking around and can like put things together. Now we're writing a TV show where it's like a code breaker and what that means throughout your day-to-day life where that's a man that can put two and two together and actually see what the fuck is going on.
01:13:39
That's exciting. Plus time travel just for fun. What? Oh, just throw it in. Yeah.
01:13:46
Like he goes back in time and solves codes because I want the Zodiac letters to be involved in this.
01:13:51
Oh, okay. That could be the big season one finale. Yes. What if he has a magical coat closet in the front of his apartment?
01:13:59
He got drunk and fell into one day and then fell into 1969, the summer of love. And he's like, what the fuck?
01:14:07
I got to crack this. The show's called Crack This. What's happening? We're not supposed to be doing this on the show.
01:14:15
No, stop it. Stop it. Okay, I'm not talking anymore. No, please do. Please do. Okay.
01:14:20
Crack it. Crack it. So he works out of the FBI lab at Quantico, of course, because that's the coolest place to work.
01:14:28
And he and Daniel Olsen's the best in the biz at deciphering codes, but even he can't crack it.
01:14:34
So Brian Regan is smart enough that the fucking best code cracker at the FBI in Quantico, Virginia.
01:14:42
Who's also beautiful. Who's also gorgeous and a time traveler. And sensitive. Has stumped him.
01:14:49
He has cats. He's got like this cat named Einstein. that he talks to. Okay. So Brian Regan is right when he is embittered toward the world because he is really smart
01:15:00
and he is misunderstood. Yes. And he does have, he has it to be. And what if we fold Daniel Olsen into this plot a lot sooner so that we set up a direct
01:15:10
thing to be upset by because he's like, I, I knew that before he said it. It's that.
01:15:16
It's like Lex Luthor where you're like, well, he has a point. Yeah. You know, he's, he's right to be so bitter.
01:15:22
Yeah. Like I'm kind of on his side. He deciphers just a small piece of code. So they're like
01:15:28
stumped on this now. About two weeks after Brian's arrest, what happens? Motherfucking 9-11.
01:15:36
Oh. Yeah. So obviously the world changes completely. Life is in turmoil. Our country's devastated.
01:15:44
Obviously the story overshadows Brian's in the news. So that's probably why we've never heard of
01:15:50
Right. But now, given the existing threat on Americans' safety, the government officials investigating Brian are now like, we have to double down and recover these stolen documents.
01:16:01
Because now national security is such a big fucking deal because we were attacked on our own soil Right So we not ignoring this Especially since one of the countries Brian was targeting to sell to was Iraq
01:16:14
Now the Pentagon, the DOJ, the FBI, and the NRO are all involved in getting Brian to try to cooperate and tell them where he hid those documents.
01:16:23
And they all want to prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law. the fullest extent of the law for this charge would be to seek the death penalty against him
01:16:32
that's right it traitors at that level yeah it usually are like shot by firing squad or that's
01:16:39
the old way yeah i mean it sounds extreme it's like yeah hard to wrap your brain around but like
01:16:46
that's how serious it is to the government when you do shit like this when you go against your
01:16:51
own country and you're like ah i guess i'll just do what's good for me and everyone else can
01:16:55
suck it. Because it would have put so many lives in danger if it had gone through what he did.
01:17:02
Yeah. So if it goes through and he gets that, Brian will be the first spy in over 50 years to
01:17:07
receive the death penalty. Of course, the last time a spy received the death penalty was in 1951
01:17:13
at the Rosenberg trial where Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for providing details
01:17:17
about the design of the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union. How have we not covered that one?
01:17:22
that one's such a bummer it's all about the like red scare and all the different things where it's
01:17:29
like these days it's like what really happened with the Rosenbergs is what you'd probably want
01:17:34
to hear yeah and they give such grandma and grandpa vibes that you're like oh this sucks
01:17:39
so crazy did you ever see Angels in America no but I know it's good it's so good Meryl Streep
01:17:46
plays Ethel Rosenberg oh wow it's unbelievable it's so good okay I'll watch it okay
01:17:52
All of this, the death penalty on the line, all this shit. Brian is not dissuaded.
01:17:57
No. Instead of caving to the pressure and cooperating with the investigators, Brian writes a somewhat
01:18:02
coded letter to his wife asking, this is so weird, asking her to bury little trinkets,
01:18:08
like little toys, little worthless toys, as part of a scavenger hunt for their kids.
01:18:14
So I think he's trying to like throw off the FBI by being like, here's other things that
01:18:19
are buried. Maybe it has nothing to do. I don't know. I don't understand it completely.
01:18:23
He's definitely trying to like do a double blind, smoke screen, spy stuff. Right.
01:18:28
And she thinks he's innocent, his wife. So she does what he's asked. She buries those little trinkets.
01:18:35
But the FBI finds out about Brian's plan. And now they have the grounds to prosecute his wife
01:18:41
for obstruction of justice, even though she innocently believed her husband wasn't trying to be a spy.
01:18:48
So now the FBI are able to use this to their advantage and tell Brian that if he helps them locate the very documents, they won't pursue any charges against his wife.
01:18:58
So if it's against him, he doesn't care. But now it's his family. They have four young children now.
01:19:04
He's like, OK, that's that's isn't going to happen. And they say that if he helps them, she'll still be able to receive his military benefits, his pension and health insurance.
01:19:12
So like knowing he's kind of fucked, he's like, I'm not going to fuck over my wife.
01:19:16
Yeah. Yeah. Don't burn it all down, you fool. Yeah. So finally, after two years of holding out information, Brian finally agrees to cooperate, but not before he is tried and convicted of espionage in March of 2003.
01:19:30
He doesn't receive the death penalty, but he does get life in prison. He admits to burying these packages, these Tupperwares in two state parks.
01:19:39
There's 12 packages in Pocahontas State Park in Virginia and seven packages in the Patapsco Valley State Park in Ellicott City, Maryland.
01:19:50
He also admits about the code. He says cracking the code would reveal the coordinates.
01:19:55
The code's super elaborate and nearly unsolvable, as the FBI had found out. But he's like, but hey, you don't even need to do that because I also buried a key to the code in a plastic travel toothbrush holder.
01:20:09
And he tells them Are you being serious I swear to fucking God He tells them where to find that And within hours Stephen Carr and the FBI agents are there They dig up the toothbrush holder
01:20:20
They find the coordinates. They go to Pocahontas State Park in Virginia. They find 11 of the 12 packages that same day because of the code.
01:20:29
And then they find the 12th when our friend Dan Olson is able to finally crack one of the codes.
01:20:35
And they find the 12th one. So he did help. Ha ha. He came back. He came back. He's back.
01:20:39
That's actually all a little bit soft and gentle version of Israel keys, burying caches and going around.
01:20:49
Because you're making everything so, and maybe this is his thing, coordinates, whatnot.
01:20:55
But it's just like, why wouldn't you just put him in a safety deposit box, put him in a storage container?
01:21:01
Because that's not like fun for him. No. I feel like it's not an adventure, you know?
01:21:07
Right. I wonder how many things are buried out there, like on that level that are never going to be found.
01:21:13
Like in state parks or like in city parks where people are just like, we'll just put this here for now.
01:21:18
Oh, my God. Okay. So then that leaves the seven packages that are buried in Patapsco Valley State Park in Maryland.
01:21:28
Brian had buried the seven packages about a year and a half before he buried the packages in Pocahontas.
01:21:34
And he did it using a completely different code. So this guy can like come up with codes.
01:21:38
I don't know if that's hard or easy. So they find the other toothbrush holder for these packages.
01:21:44
I mean, he just needed to clean his bathroom out. That's what it sounds like to me.
01:21:49
Just recycle, sir. So because he wrote this code so long ago, though, he doesn't remember exactly how it works.
01:21:57
He forgot how to decode his own shit. All he can remember is that he built the code off some of the content in his junior high yearbook.
01:22:06
Like letters coordinating to this person, to that person, to numbers. I don't know how codes work.
01:22:11
So he doesn't know like where his own key is or he doesn't remember? I think that they don't know where the key is.
01:22:16
Yeah. So they all work together. They go through his yearbook. They sit down and they try to crack the code.
01:22:24
Fast forward for time's sake, they figure it out. So now they have the coordinates for the seven packages.
01:22:29
But the problem is Brian didn't use the same key that he did. And because the GPS coordinates aren't exact, the FBI have to dig massive holes.
01:22:40
They finally, after weeks of digging, Carr has to jump through these hoops to get Brian
01:22:46
a supervised release so he can come to the state park in Maryland. And even though he doesn't remember his code, he remembers exactly where each, like he's
01:22:54
got that brain, you know, that works his way. And he's able to find every single package just by looking at the fields.
01:23:03
A park. A park, yeah. Wow, that's crazy. So they recover all the packages. Here's a fucking funny enough story.
01:23:11
Inside one of the packages, Brian had mistakenly left an old sticky note from his days of working at the NRO
01:23:17
with his name on it. So had the packages just been recovered without Brian's help,
01:23:23
he still would have been caught. He wanted to be caught. I know. He wanted to. He wanted the name of like this guy.
01:23:29
For all his smarts and cunning, Brian obviously still has lapses in judgment. That left him exposed.
01:23:34
This earns him the nickname given by one of the FBI agents of Mr. 80%. I know. I know.
01:23:43
That's the meanest nickname because that's exactly what made him so upset his whole life.
01:23:48
Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's it. You basically got the exposed nerve and then you were like, ha ha, here it is.
01:23:54
That one cuts deep for sure. Yeah, that's rough. When all the documents are recovered, the FBI discovered Brian had stolen and hidden more than 20,000 pages, videotapes and CD-ROMs of top secret and classified government and military information.
01:24:09
Brian is now 61. He continues to serve his life sentence at the Federal Correctional Institution of Hazleton in Preston County, West Virginia.
01:24:18
He is as he put it quote going to serve more time than any other spy ever end quote Well then hey you number one buddy Yeah
01:24:28
And that is the story of Brian Regan, the spy who couldn't spell. Dang. I know. That is truly fascinating.
01:24:37
Kind of upsetting. Also, like, I always thought 80% was pretty good. Oh, I'll take it.
01:24:43
That's a B. That's a solid B average. That's a solid B. I'll take a solid B. Oh, wow.
01:24:49
Yeah. Nice one. Thank you. This podcast is Mr. 80%. This podcast is a solid 76 at all times.
01:25:01
I was just thinking that, I think we've talked about this before, but all the things we lost
01:25:05
because 9-11 just took over when they were equally important and equally pressing.
01:25:12
And then all of a sudden, everything just got pushed to the side. Yeah. There's so, so, so many of those things. Yeah. I mean, it was unprecedented, literally,
01:25:20
obviously. And that's why it was. Yeah. Wow. So crazy. Yeah. We lived through it. We did. And we
01:25:28
lived through this episode. And you guys lived through this episode. And hey, we appreciate that
01:25:32
about you. Good job. You did it. We did it. You nailed it. We all nailed it together.
01:25:37
Well, thanks for listening. We've done it again. Two solid stories to really get you through your
01:25:46
what? Workday? Commute? All of it. Yeah. All of it. Life. You're just laying there. Yeah.
01:25:53
We'll get it. We get it. Painting your nails? Maybe you're painting your nails. I mean,
01:25:56
who knows? Maybe you're spying somewhere and burying Tupperware in the forest. Oh my God. Listen, send us an anonymous hometown of what you're doing. Just tell us. We need to
01:26:06
No, we won't give you away my favorite murderous email, please. We're not snitches.
01:26:11
No, we are not. One other request, stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
01:26:19
Me? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
01:26:31
Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
01:26:35
This episode was mixed by Liana Squalache. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Allie Elkin.
01:26:41
Email your hometowns to MyFavoriteMurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder and Twitter at MyFaveMurder.
01:26:49
Goodbye! Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.
01:26:59
Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
01:27:10
He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off.
01:27:16
And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:27:24
You think you're in control until you realize you're not. As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air,
01:27:33
many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft. I thought we were going to die then.
01:27:39
The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn. Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything.
01:27:49
New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the iHeart Podcast Network.
01:27:53
Listen to The Knife on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:27:59
I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.
01:28:08
Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
01:28:20
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.