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This is Exactly Right. Before NXIVM, Nancy Solzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody, it's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.
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She trained in something called neuro-linguistic programming. People loved our training.
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Then, everything changed. Yeah, and they called it a cult. How does a method designed to improve lives end up in a cult?
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A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.
00:01:03
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:26
Claressa Shields and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard, the art of trash talk and what it really means to be ladylike.
00:01:33
Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the matchup with Aaliyah and listen now. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.
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Hello! And welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstark. That's Karen Kilgariff.
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Dottie's in the house. That's Mimi. Oh. How dare you, Karen? I just saw a tail going like this.
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I didn't see a face. Your favorite, Mimi. Mimi. Angry Mimi. Since our last episode,
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I think everything is changing. Yeah. How are you? Everything in the world. You going through some existential shit?
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No, I'm talking about the world. The world is going through some existential shit.
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Yeah. Nothing to be surprised by. Well, but as a Gen Xer who is from a culture of people in a time where being political was not cool and it was kind of frowned upon,
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watching college students rise up in this way against not only genocide, but against basically
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kind of everything. Like it is, it just gives me the chills. It's unbelievable. It's like rising up against ignoring and or funding genocide, one would say.
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Yeah. And then getting just trampled for it. Yes. Did you see the thing where there's a refugee encampment in Gaza and they wrote like, thank you, Columbia students.
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No. They wrote all these messages in English saying like, thank you to these 19 year olds who are just like holding their own in the face.
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So, I mean, it's just so it's so fucking cool. it is i'm i'm at the very end of a not post-apocalyptic like current apocalyptic how
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does that sound everything apocalyptic yeah just like it's it's it's crappening right now kind of
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thing and so i'm feeling a little like i can't stomach a lot of the news because the apocalyptic
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stuff in this book isn't that far-fetched you know it takes place in like 2090 so it's like
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based on reality. Yeah. Yeah. It's happening. Yeah. So yes, that's rough. You didn't say it
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was a book at first. So I'm just like, what? Where are you? What's happening with you?
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Well, what I really love too, is then it's like student protests combining with now there's going
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to be a women's strike on June 24th. There's like a, it's time to rise up. It's time to rise up.
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Yeah. What a vibe. I love it. The time has come. Women strike on June 24th. If you can,
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don't go to work. Don't do anything. As a woman, you show people how valuable women are. And the
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fact that we have to fight to have the same bodily autonomy as men in 2024 is disgusting and
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ridiculous. And it needs to be changed immediately. And if you can't not work, wear a red shirt.
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and stand up. We have to do something. Something has to change. I love that. Take inspiration from college students all across this nation. Stand up.
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Oh, I wanted to tell you. So there's this four part synon on the cult synon on documentary on HBO.
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Yeah. Vince and I have been watching. It's great. And the beginning of it, the beginning of Synanon, what became a cult was in Los Angeles in the 60s.
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It's kind of like a drug rehab type of place. And so I was like, I wonder if my parents ever
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went to Synanon because they were in LA, you know, they're from LA and they were like teenagers at
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the time. So I text my mom first being like, if anyone joined a cult, it's my mom. And she was
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like she was like no no I heard about it but I never went because they had like a house in Santa Monica that was like the hangout house It sounded freaking amazing And so then I text my dad and I was like maybe one of my uncles went or something
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And my dad was like, yeah, I went there a few times. My dad went to fucking Synanon.
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Hell yeah. Like, because it was a hipster. I mean, when I covered this, we talked about it.
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Oh, I have the episode number that you covered. You covered Synanon in episode 132.
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It's called Awful Peanut. I wonder why. I have no idea. Oh, and my dad told me he was fine with me sharing the story,
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by the way. But he said he went because he went to AA meetings there. Yeah. And I asked him if he ever met the psycho leader and saw the yelling circles that they had.
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Uh-huh. Because they talk about that in the cult. And he's like, I watched it once and it was very
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uncomfortable. But otherwise, it was just like regular AA meetings. Marty witnessed that like the inception of Synanon, which is incredible because like
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Marty witnesses the inception and then cut to like six-year-old me in the back of my parents' car
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watching the Synanon people. By that point, they were wearing all white robes with shaved heads,
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riding their bikes down country roads. So like in the middle of truly nowhere, where here's just some people with shaved heads who are like, it was so intense.
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You got to watch the documentary. There's so much footage of that time. And seeing how it slowly became inescapable is so interesting.
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Also, the reason he stopped going is because he was dating my mom at the time they were in college.
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And she was worried that he was going to meet someone, a hot lady. At Synanon? At an AA meeting, which is like, okay, that shows you where I get my codependence from.
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for sure. Well, and also didn't, but didn't they use like beautiful women to get them to come?
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This, it made it like the cool place to go to AA. Yeah. Yeah. He said that. And then he said,
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I mean, there was a beautiful older lady there and then she was beautiful, but I left. I was like,
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okay, so she was right. My mom was right. She was right. But yeah, but vibes count too. And the vibe
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was way off. I'm sure in that place. Also, it's just so fascinating because a lot of the things
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that they developed by that guy and in that group are the things that were based on these,
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those horrible schools, like the Elon school, the stuff we've talked about, about the kidnapping
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and taking your kid to like, we're going to make it all okay schools. Those are all people that
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like kind of stole it from that. We'll just sit you in a chair and scream at you. This is what's
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best. Tough love. The kid part is really hard to watch because it's just breaks my fucking heart
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so much. But this is why you need to ask your parents the craziest thing that happened to them
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when they were younger, you know, because they might be hiding the fact that they went to
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a cult before it was a cult. Marty, yeah, I went through. I kind of audited some classes there.
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I feel like he'd be way too chill to join a cult. He'd just be like, can we all calm down,
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please? Let's take a nap. The second they're like, Marty, shave your head. He's like,
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I've got to go. Thank you so much for everything. That is good. That's all I have this week.
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What about you? No, I got nothing. But we do have a network where we can talk about the highlights.
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Want to do that instead? We sure do. Yeah, let's do it. We have a podcast network.
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It's called Exactly Right Media. Hey, here are some highlights. Hey, there's a new episode of MemoFem animated on the Exactly Right YouTube channel called
00:09:33
Box City from Minisode 366. It's very funny. Michelle Bouteau and Jordan Carlos are joined
00:09:40
on adulting by comedian Lisa Trager, co-host of That's Messed Up and SVU podcast. She's so funny.
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She's so funny. And the final episode of The Butterfly King is out now. Host Becky Milligan
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finally gets to the truth about the mysterious death of King Boris. Binge the whole series now.
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The Butterfly King is such an incredible limited series that Blanchard House made.
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basically for us and with us. And we love it so much. So please give it a listen.
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Then on Buried Bones, Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes cover the Servant Girl Annihilator,
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an unidentified serial killer who preyed on the city of Austin, Texas in the 1880s. Crazy story.
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And also on a lighter note, we really apologize. We underestimated how much you would all love our
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new hot dog merch. So Aaron Brown, he's in charge of all of that, is working on restocking all of
00:10:32
those items as soon as possible. But please, in the meantime, go look at the My Favorite Murder
00:10:37
merch store. There's a new SSDGM muscle shirt in there for summertime. There's a bunch of stuff to
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look at. And then you can also, you know, get ready for your hot dog merch when it's back.
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I love it. I already ordered one for me and Vince. It's like epic. Hot dog summer instead of hot girl summer. Am I right? Am I right?
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Hell yeah. Before NXIVM, Nancy Solzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody, it's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.
00:11:08
She trained in something called neuro-linguistic programming. People loved our training.
00:11:13
Then, everything changed. Yeah, and they called it a cult. How does a method designed to improve lives end up in a cult?
00:11:21
A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.
00:11:27
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:11:57
Open your free iHeartRadio app search The Matchup with Aaliyah and listen now Brought to you by Novartis founding partner of iHeart Women Sports Network
00:12:06
I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.
00:12:16
Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:12:27
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:12:38
Am I first? Yeah, you're first. Okay. Well, look, I hate to tell you this, but I'm about to do a classic cold case.
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Okay. It's one of those stories that you always see on the threads of like, what's a cold case that should have been solved by now or a cold case that has some weird details in it, because this one does. And yet it hasn't been solved. It should and it could. So I'm going to cover the unsolved murder of Donna Dahl.
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The main sources used in today's story include an article from Northern Star by Stuart Warren,
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an article from Medium by Fatim Hamraj, and an article from the Chicago Tribune by Angie
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Leventus-Lorgos and Becky Schleicherman. And all the other sources are listed in the show notes.
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So just a little background on Donna Dahl. She's born in 1949 and raised in Brookfield, Illinois.
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she is bright hardworking and she is very responsible because she has to be as the
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eldest of four children it's that thing where i think especially back in the day the eldest child
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became like a surrogate parent and was expected to essentially parent the younger kids especially
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the oldest sister right oh right it was a given it you didn't even get to choose no i can't imagine
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that life where it's just like, oh, she had these chores. She had to babysit. Even her friends were
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like, she always had like chores to do. She could never hang out. But she doesn't let that get in
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the way of her academic achievements. She's super smart. She gets good grades. She's a member of the
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National Honor Society. Her dream is to become a Russian language teacher, which is like, that
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sounds hard. Oh my God. I think Russian is one of the hardest languages, isn't it? Let's say yes.
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It's got to be. Backwards R's and stuff. She is described by her peers as never wild,
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innocent. When she graduates from her local high school in 1967, she ranks 15th in her class.
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Oh, wow. Which is wild. How many kids were in my class? Because I was the last one.
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Were you? I have to have been. I have to have been. So that's impressive. She gets a scholarship to Northern Illinois University in DeKalb.
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It's a farm town. It's 74 miles west of Chicago. So you think it's close to Chicago.
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Maybe it's metropolitan. It's not. It is rural at the time, cornfields, and everyone thinks of it as a safe place, even though it's,
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you know, a college town. By the fall semester of her senior year of college, where she's majoring in Russian,
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it's 1970, she's 21 years old, and she is deep in her honors studies while also working
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part-time at the Swen Parsons Library on the campus. But she also has a busy social life. I
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think when she moved away to college, suddenly she had less responsibilities than she, you know what
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I mean? It's like- Imagine, yeah, she's like finally breaking free. Yeah, I have free time.
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I'm a college student. Like I just, I think she like flourished and had a life of her own there.
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And so she is able to make more friends. She goes to parties. She goes on dates for the first time.
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In fact, she has her first boyfriend, a graduate student at NIU studying math named Charles.
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I kind of don't want to add his last name. You can find it anywhere, but he's a suspect, obviously.
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He's a boyfriend, but he was never charged. And he's still living and working out there in the world.
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It feels a little weird to say his last name. What do you think? Yeah, you can just say her boyfriend, Charles.
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Yeah, okay. Her boyfriend, Charles. But Donna's childhood best friend, Donna Charlotte, doesn't really like Charles.
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I'm going to call her Donna Charlotte because they're both named Donna and that's confusing.
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So Donna Charlotte often describes Charles as controlling and possessive and she wants better for her friend.
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And so when Donna returns from a summer long foreign language program in the summer of 1970 and has a new love interest, her friend Donna Charlotte is really happy for her.
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This man is older and there's not much known about him. He's either still married or recently divorced.
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So while her friend approves of her new partner, her parents aren't really thrilled about it.
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So we don't know a lot about him. In any case, Donna breaks things off with Charles for this new guy that she met.
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And it doesn't sit well with Charles. So in the fall of 1970, Donna and her best friend, Donna Charlotte,
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are going to hang out and catch up after they've both been busy doing their own things. So Donna
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Charlotte is going to pick up Donna from her job at the library once her shift ends at 10 p.m.
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on Friday, October 2nd, 1970, so they can grab coffee and go for a walk. When the day comes,
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Donna Charlotte arrives at the library. And a little after 10, as planned, she waits about 20
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minutes for her friend, but Donna never shows. And she just figures something must have come up
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or that Donna forgot, you know, about their plans. And so she drives off with, without thinking twice
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about it, but two more days go by and no one has seen Donna, her house parents, which are basically
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like the assistants of the dorm house you know RAs call the DeKalb police on Sunday October 4th 1970 at 1130 PM and report Donna missing So it been two days which we all know is not good to wait that long
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So police go and search Donna's room. They find her clothes, her suitcase and her allergy medication, which is a total necessity
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for Donna. It's all still there. There's also a paycheck from her library job left uncashed.
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and it's figured out that she probably couldn't have more than ten dollars on her wherever she is
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and it's unlike donna to leave without a warning so what do the police do they figure she left to
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go hang out with her boyfriend as they do despite her not having brought anything which is not how
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you go visit anyone i mean everybody talked we all talk about it all the time but it's like
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the runaway built-in excuse for police to not have to look into things is so frustrating.
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In hindsight, it's like, this is so egregiously lazy. Yeah, absolutely. So police just chalked the whole thing up to a secret weekend meetup with her boyfriend.
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The end. Another day goes by, and then another. Donna misses her little sister Becky's 10th birthday party back home in Brookfield.
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She misses classes, which is totally unlike her. And so the Dahl family is sick with worry, as are all of Donna's friends, including her
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now ex-boyfriend, Charles. He organizes a search party to look for her in all the areas surrounding campus.
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So he's the one who's like, this isn't normal. Yeah. And organizes a search party.
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But no sign of Donna turns up. Okay, so then at about 8.30 p.m. on October 11th, 1970, three local teens are on their way to a party.
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And I guess maybe this is a normal rule thing, but they have alcohol stashes like in the fields, like in cornfields.
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They'll be like, here's where we keep all our alcohol. We grab it on the way to the party.
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Yeah. Well, because you'd get someone, you'd probably what we call tap shoulder at a 7-Eleven, get some old weirdo to buy you your liquor, but then you can't put it in your parents' refrigerator.
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You can't like, right? So you have to put it somewhere where you won't get caught.
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Totally, totally. So they stop at their secret boo stash to pick up beer. It's a remote part of a cornfield in DeKalb, just over a mile west of NIU's campus.
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and one of the teens, a first year college student, hops out of a station wagon, runs into the tall
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grass growing from the ditch along the side of the road to grab the beer. And instead he finds the
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body of a woman laying on her back beneath a tree. He, of course, he's with other people. He like
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demands that they don't look. He like saved them from having to see this, which is, you know, heroic.
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Yeah. He hops back in the car and they drive straight to the police department to report what they found.
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Police follow the kids back and find the body. And so at 3 a.m., Charles, the ex-boyfriend, gets word about police finding a body.
00:21:01
He's the one to come and identify 21-year-old Donna Dahl and she's dead. So here's a couple of weird things.
00:21:09
So Donna's body is found fully clothed, except her shoes aren't there and her purse isn't there and they're never found.
00:21:16
Her trench coat isn't found either. However, she is in a jacket. It's not hers. Like just whose fucking jacket was that? You know,
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I'm just, I find little clues like that should have had someone come forward, but they don't,
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you know? Well, also it's, it tells you that there was something else, a bunch of other things,
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perhaps that happened in between. It wasn't just this linear kind of thing, which is also
00:21:41
upsetting to think about. Yeah. Donna's body shows no signs of a struggle or any kind of
00:21:47
violent altercation that indicates to them that she probably knew the killer. But I don't know how
00:21:53
if someone holds a gun to your head, I'm not going to fight. You know what I mean? It doesn't mean
00:21:58
that. It's the same thing when they're like, she opened her front door to a stranger. She would
00:22:02
never do that. People do that. It happens. Especially when strangers have uniforms,
00:22:07
you know, things that you're like, oh, this is a mailman. This is trustworthy, whoever.
00:22:11
Totally. According to the pathologist, Donna was most likely suffocated with either a pillowcase or a plastic bag. There are, however, no fibers found in her airways, which is unusual because that's actually an indicator of death by suffocation. So that part's strange as well.
00:22:28
So records at the library show Donna had clocked out of work at 9.59 on October 2nd, 1970.
00:22:34
And remember, her friend was there at 10 o'clock. So she just missed something by minutes.
00:22:40
And police find mysterious substances present in her toxicology report, although the science
00:22:45
at the time isn't able to properly identify these substances. And it's like, can we please fucking test those now?
00:22:50
But the other part that's really weird is what pathologists find in Donna's stomach.
00:22:57
Somehow she had consumed somewhere between five to six pounds of potatoes before her death.
00:23:03
What? Uh-huh. And for context, one large russet potato weighs roughly one pound.
00:23:10
So that would be five to six large russet potatoes, which totally gives me the movie Seven vibes.
00:23:17
Right. Yeah. Yeah. That some very mentally ill person had some strange plot in their head or, I mean, God, that's weird. That's really bizarre detail.
00:23:31
Yeah. And then also like the fact that they could have missed back then, you know, a needle mark
00:23:37
or something that had shown, I don't know, like it just, the toxicology stuff is weird to me
00:23:43
that they think she didn't fight back because she knew the person. That's just so,
00:23:48
it's such a weird assumption. I don't know. Well, also when it could be anything, then all assumptions are just that, right?
00:23:55
It's like, what can you actually, because the first thing I think of is, There's somebody hiding in the library as she's closing it.
00:24:02
Totally. And then she's surprised by someone, maybe someone she's recognized from the library
00:24:07
and doesn't think, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Did I close down with you? And then it turns.
00:24:14
But God. And also, like, she clocked out. So someone was waiting outside for her.
00:24:19
She clocked out. And a minute later, her friend was waiting for her and didn't see anything.
00:24:25
So something happened right then that was so quick. So, yeah. Interestingly, the search party that Donna's ex, Charles, had arranged came just a quarter mile short of where Donna's body was finally found.
00:24:39
And the site where Donna's body was found is very close to Charles's apartment building.
00:24:45
So that does seem like one of those things where it's like he's trying to involve himself.
00:24:49
Yeah. But I think wouldn't he have stumbled upon the body? Maybe he just hadn't done it yet.
00:24:53
Maybe he was keeping them away from the body. Right. Right. They were so close and they didn't find it.
00:25:00
Right. Yeah, that's a good point. So these facts, coupled with Charles's reportedly possessive
00:25:04
behavior and his being upset over being dumped by Donna, mark Charles as the police's prime suspect.
00:25:11
But the day after Charles is named a suspect, he attempts to take his own life. So they're like, OK, is he doing this because he feels guilty having killed Donna? Or is he
00:25:21
maybe just upset that the woman he loves died? It's one of those things. And after the attempt
00:25:26
on his own life, Charles is admitted into the University Health Services Hospital.
00:25:31
And even before he checks out, he retains a lawyer for himself named Ed Dietrich.
00:25:36
On October 20th, 1970, the lawyer puts out a statement via the DeKalb Chronicle on Charles's
00:25:42
behalf saying Charles has been, quote, quite emotionally disturbed, end quote, by Donna's
00:25:47
death, but that he's, quote, been extremely cooperative with police, working 20 out of
00:25:52
24 hours with them, end quote. I don't know. Yeah. Does that mean they've just questioned him that
00:25:57
long? I don't know. And he said that he even offered to take a polygraph test. Through all
00:26:02
their efforts and conversation with Charles, police never get enough evidence to charge him
00:26:06
with Donna's murder. And this unnamed boyfriend in Pennsylvania is also questioned. And he tells
00:26:13
police he hasn't spoken to Donna in days and that he was nowhere near DeKalb at the time of the
00:26:17
murder. And so police quickly dropped him as a suspect. So Donna lived a pretty quiet life.
00:26:24
She only had two love interests. They're both ruled out as suspects, or at least they don't
00:26:28
have enough evidence to charge either of them. And the police prospects of solving her case
00:26:33
dry up and the case goes cold. So the ex-boyfriend Charles moves on with his life.
00:26:40
When anyone tries to get in contact with him for like, you know, a news story about it,
00:26:44
He always just says no comment, which is his right to do. Donna's friends and family have sadly never gotten the answers they so desperately crave.
00:26:53
But in 2010, DeKalb County Sheriff Roger Scott tells the Chicago Tribune that the case remains open, quote, with the hopes that somewhere along the line, something will materialize that will make a difference, end quote.
00:27:07
And that is the story of the strange unsolved murder of Donna Dahl. I know you hate it.
00:27:11
Whoa. I know you hate it. Well, also, I don't know why, but that felt fast. And so it's just like, and what?
00:27:19
Did something happen recently? Or like, that's just sitting there. That's just sitting there.
00:27:25
It's just sitting there waiting for some other thing to turn up to help solve it.
00:27:30
And there's these like little clues that make you think like, oh, somewhere in these little,
00:27:36
somewhere in here in these little clues is the answer. And everything will be explained.
00:27:41
Like whose jacket was she wearing? And what's the deal with the potatoes? And you'll finally figure it out, you know?
00:27:47
And like, I don't know. It's just these kind of cases drive me fucking crazy. Yeah.
00:27:53
Wow. And so many of these cold cases feel like we're getting to a point in history where they could be solved.
00:28:00
You know, I know it's not an easy thing to do. Their funds aren't there, but. The funds are there.
00:28:05
They're not using them for what they need to be using them for. I'll fucking say it again.
00:28:09
But like when you said, oh, they should test that now. It's like, but do they have, do they still have this evidence?
00:28:16
Do they still have the materials? Like it requires that kind of like pristine, what's the word for it?
00:28:24
Like archival. Evidence collecting. Yeah. Yeah. Archival evidence that like not every, it's just so frustrating.
00:28:32
I know. The worst are when it's like there was a fire in the eighties that destroyed the evidence
00:28:37
room or whatever it is. There was a flood that destroyed all the evidence from before 1990.
00:28:43
Or they destroyed all evidence and anything that happened before, you know, when they moved to a new fucking facility.
00:28:49
Like that shit happens all the time. Yeah. There should be some sort of a federal law passed about cold cases.
00:28:56
And I don't know what it should be. And I certainly can't make it up. But it's like we should start acting like cold cases are still important police work that has to get taken care of.
00:29:08
Yeah. Did you see a dude last week confessed on his deathbed to a case from 2000 that he killed a mother and her like 10 year old daughter on his deathbed?
00:29:19
Yeah. Wow. Maybe we'll get more of those. I mean, this is what you like. You like this frustrating feeling.
00:29:28
That's what it is. Oh, I like you like it. I like a mystery. I do. I mean, I don't like it.
00:29:34
I want to solve it. I just think the answer is there and it drives me crazy that I can't find it.
00:29:38
I become fixated when I think the answer's there. And it incredibly satisfying when that case you know like you just said the deathbed confession or something is somebody goes through it or there a new detective that actually gets back into it and re people The victims deserve to have justice and their killer answer for their crimes So I just am always thinking about those cases Yeah Well good Thank you for that That was good Thank you
00:30:09
You know, the famous author Roald Dahl, he thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG, but did you know he was a spy? Neither did I. You can hear all about his wildlife story in the
00:30:20
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00:31:40
Let's take a 180-degree turn. Please. But towards something equally terrible, but just in a different way. Today, I'm going to tell you all about the infamous
00:31:51
air disaster that changed the course of air travel as we know it. It's March of 1936,
00:31:58
and most of the world is unaware that World War II is on the horizon. Hitler's hellbent on making
00:32:06
Germany a global fascist superpower. And because of this, the German-engineered rigid airship,
00:32:12
or dirigible called LZ-129 Hindenburg, which is one of the first passenger aircrafts capable of
00:32:20
flying across the Atlantic Ocean, becomes the ultimate symbol of German might. It's 808 feet
00:32:28
long, 135 feet in diameter. It's referred to as the Titanic of the sky. Oh dear. Which is a little
00:32:35
bit kind of ominous. And they call it that because it's almost the same length that the Titanic was
00:32:42
882 feet. So it's like, you know, this is also gigantic, but the comparison would turn out to
00:32:48
be more apt than anyone could have ever guessed. This is the story of the Hindenburg disaster.
00:32:55
Fuck yeah. Right. How big is that? How many football fields? Is that at least one? That's
00:33:00
one football field size, right? It's the size of a ship. 800. It's a ship's length. That's a large
00:33:07
flying machine. That's got to be two and a half football fields. I have no idea.
00:33:12
If you knew how many feet were in a yard, we could maybe do it that way. If I knew how many yards were in a football field.
00:33:19
If we watched football ever, except for when my dad forces me to. The main sources for today's story are an essay from airships.net, your favorite website and mine,
00:33:31
and an article from Smithsonian Magazine by Donovan Webster. And all the rest of our sources are in our show notes.
00:33:38
Please go look if you're interested in reading more about this. Okay, first I'm going to talk to you about dirigibles.
00:33:45
Okay. Finally. Which I think is this, it is this part of history that is so fascinating
00:33:52
where it's like for a little while, people thought this would be the way we're going to get around.
00:33:58
It works like this, so we can do it like this. There's a dirigible docking station on top of that, or there was on the top of the Empire State Building.
00:34:07
What's a dirigible? Will you tell me? A dirigible is the Hindenburg. It's a big, rigid airship. Yes, I will tell you about it.
00:34:15
Blimp? Like it's like a blimp, kind of. Yes, they're a type of aircraft that fly using a contained gas, like helium or hydrogen, different from blimps in that a dirigible or a rigid airship has a skeletal structure that holds the balloon-like shape rather than the shape coming when the balloon is inflated, which is what a blimp is.
00:34:36
Okay. So basically, it's like it has a built structure, like a little skeleton inside there that keeps that shape.
00:34:42
I'll describe all this to you. I wish you would. Sorry. Because I'm answering you like I know, and I absolutely do not.
00:34:49
So in rigid airships or dirigibles, the gas is stored in smaller balloons or cells that line the airship's interior.
00:34:57
And that creates more space for passenger cabins, dining rooms, and other rooms that you would find in a commercial airship.
00:35:06
And so the flagship brand of rigid airships is the Zeppelin, which was invented by German general and inventor Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin for his company Luftschiffbau Zeppelin.
00:35:21
And that name becomes so synonymous with airship travel that most people refer to rigid airships as zeppelins, even though they were crafted by many other companies, much in the same way as we call hot tubs, jacuzzis, because of the great jacuzzi family or Q-tips cotton swabs.
00:35:40
Right. I'm going to think of seven more examples. There you go. Tissues. So the first zeppelin, the LZ-1, takes its inaugural flight in the year 1900.
00:35:51
Wow. Yeah. By the time Zeppelin makes the LZ six years later it performs well enough to attract interest from the German army So together Zeppelin and those army officials improve the engineering and add features like 24 flight capability
00:36:09
During one test in 1908, a storm causes the LZ-4 to crash and burn in front of dozens of curious spectators.
00:36:17
But instead of that turning the public off to airship travel, German citizens become really invested and enthusiastic about getting it right.
00:36:27
So they start donating tons of their own money to the Zeppelin company to keep up the work so that they keep developing.
00:36:35
So now other countries like England and France want to get in on the rigid airship game.
00:36:41
So they tried their hands at crafting their own airships. During World War I, both the German army and the British Royal Navy use dirigibles in combat.
00:36:52
They don't actually make any significant contributions in battle per se, but they use them.
00:36:58
They're not very stealth, I would think. No, I'm just kind of like kind of slow.
00:37:03
So the Germans would eventually come to find the real value of airships is in their commercial use.
00:37:09
So by 1925, passengers are able to take domestic Zeppelin flights in Germany. But the chairman of Luftschiffbau Zeppelin, a man named Dr. Hugo Ekener, he set his sights on international passenger travel.
00:37:25
He served in the German army and then he got work as a journalist. And while he was writing a story about the LZ-1 and the LZ-2, Dr. Echner got so interested in these airships that he actually joined the Zeppelin company in 1908.
00:37:43
Then in 1911, he became an airship captain and he eventually worked his way up to a chairman position, planning to use his newfound power to expand the reach and the capabilities of airships.
00:37:55
So he was like a big Zeppelin nerd. So with funding from the public and the German government, Luftschiffbau Zeppelin develops the LZ-127 Graf Zeppelin, which flies for the first time on September 18th, 1928.
00:38:11
And the Graf Zeppelin makes a trip from Germany to South America, which is the first journey of its kind with passengers aboard.
00:38:20
Wow. How scared must those passengers have been the entire fucking time? The level of trust and kind of like, I believe in the future and whatever you guys are doing. Yeah, tough. So the U.S. is also working on airships of their own because we're never to be outdone. In the early 1920s, the U.S. establishes a dirigible airfield at the Lakehurst Naval Air Station in New Jersey. But they take a slightly different approach in their design.
00:38:49
they use helium as their buoyant gas instead of hydrogen. Because hydrogen is far cheaper to produce and lighter than helium,
00:38:58
the only drawback is hydrogen is highly flammable and helium is not. So noting those safety concerns, the Germans also want to use helium in their zeppelins,
00:39:09
but wouldn't you know it, the U.S. now has a monopoly on helium as they pass the Helium Control Act of 1925 in order to ban its exports.
00:39:20
So they're business people. They see it coming. They know how to do it. So now the Germans have no other choice,
00:39:26
and they have to stick to hydrogen as they construct their greatest Zeppelin model yet,
00:39:31
the LZ-129 Hindenburg. This ship is named in honor of the late former German president
00:39:37
and field marshal Paul von Hindenburg, and it's completed in 1936. So there's two levels on this airship. The A deck, which houses 25 cramped two passenger cabins and a communal dining room, a writing room and a lounge. And then there's the B deck and that houses all the bathrooms, the crew mess hall and a bar.
00:40:01
Guests also have access to a sealed pressurized smoking lounge, of course. Oh my God.
00:40:08
No. Yeah. That can be entered through the bar through a single swiveling airlock door.
00:40:14
Again, the Hindenburg uses hydrogen. So extra precautions have to be taken with the smoking room in case, of course, there's a hydrogen leak.
00:40:22
So that the sparks from the cigarettes don't ignite the entire ship. And it's next to the bar.
00:40:28
So like go get shit face and then then go smoke and, you know, be silly with your cigarette like you do when you're drunk.
00:40:36
Also, it's a time in the world where the idea of not smoking is absolutely not a consideration.
00:40:44
No, there's just no way. No. So there are actually bar stewards who are like posted to make sure that no one walks out of the smoking room with a lit cigarette or a cigar in their hand.
00:40:54
it's that important and yet so the Hindenburg's technology is far more advanced than any other
00:41:02
airship on the market at the time and this confirms Germany's lead position at the cutting
00:41:07
edge of airship travel but at the same time airships in general are becoming obsolete because
00:41:13
airplane technology is on the rise but commercial passenger airplanes still can't cross the Atlantic
00:41:20
ocean, and that won't happen until June 28th of 1939, which is a Pan Am flight that finally does
00:41:27
it. Meanwhile, the airship has made dozens of successful transatlantic passenger flights,
00:41:33
mostly from Germany to either Brazil or some other South American countries. So I guess Germany and
00:41:40
Brazil have long had a relationship. Why do you keep going back and forth to Brazil, we ask.
00:41:46
Someone answer. It'll only be a matter of time until planes can achieve the same feat.
00:41:52
But for this short window of time the Hindenburg is the peak of passenger airship technology And because it so impressive it draws the attention of Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels
00:42:05
So, yeah, on March 7th, 1936, Nazi soldiers occupy the Rhineland, which is the section of Western Germany that borders France.
00:42:15
It's supposed to be a demilitarized zone. But then Hitler writes a referendum that authorizes the remilitarization of the Rhineland and puts it to a vote for German citizens to ratify on March 29th, 1936.
00:42:28
And so to make sure that the German people actually vote the way Hitler wants, Goebbels has an idea, and that is to fly the Graf Zeppelin and the Hindenburg over Germany to drop pro-Nazi propaganda leaflets, encouraging everyone to vote yes on Hitler's occupation of the Rhineland.
00:42:47
But when Goebbels approaches Lufschiff-Bow Zeppelin with this idea, Dr. Echner refuses.
00:42:55
He hates Nazis. He doesn't want to help them in any way. He tries to say the Hindenburg needs more testing, that it's not ready to make the flight yet.
00:43:02
But Goebbels makes it clear he is not asking for Echner's permission. So Echner just has to refuse, and another pilot named Captain Ernst Lehman takes over.
00:43:13
The flight's delayed when weather conditions damage the ship. But then the ship is quickly repaired.
00:43:20
They make the trip. The leaflets are dropped. The vote goes Hitler's way. Although at that point, the fix was probably in anyway.
00:43:28
Then on March 31st, 1936, the Hindenburg departs on its maiden passenger voyage to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
00:43:36
But Goebbels is still mad that Ekener refused to fly the ship for the leaflet drop.
00:43:43
So he makes Captain Lehman pilot this first flight instead of Echinour. And this will be the first of 17 round-trip transatlantic flights that the Hindenburg takes in 1936, including trips to the U.S.
00:43:58
The flights last anywhere from 53 to 78 hours when they're heading west. I know.
00:44:04
And 43 to 61 hours when they are heading east. All of them successful. Wow. That's so long, but it's not longer than taking a ship.
00:44:12
Yeah, and at the time, probably groundbreakingly fast. Totally. You know, for that.
00:44:18
And you could smoke and drink the whole time. So now it's, the Hindenburg has proven to handle long flights.
00:44:24
So American Airlines charters it to shuttle passengers from Germany to Lakehurst, New Jersey,
00:44:31
so they can then catch connecting domestic American flights out of the Newark airport.
00:44:37
Luftschiff-Bow Zeppelin signs on for the Hindenburg to complete 10 of these round-trip flights
00:44:41
from Frankfurt, Germany to Lakehurst, New Jersey over the course of 1937. And the first one of these flights is scheduled to depart from Frankfurt on May 3rd, 1937
00:44:52
at 7.16 p.m. There are 36 civilian passengers aboard and 61 crew members. And while the 36 passengers make up only half the Hindenburg's 70 passenger capacity, the
00:45:06
flight back to Germany is fully booked because the coronation of King George and Queen Elizabeth
00:45:13
is coming up. So a bunch of people are going back to London. So the departure piloted by Captain
00:45:20
Max Pruss goes off without a hitch. There's some strong headwinds along the way that kind of
00:45:26
prolong the journey. Otherwise, everyone on board enjoys a smooth three-day ride over the Atlantic
00:45:32
ocean. That's the other thing. You're not flying over land. Like you're just flying over vast open
00:45:38
ocean. Yeah. That's stressful to me. I feel like that's stressful to us. Imagine people who like
00:45:44
have never experienced what the ocean, the vast, you know, like seen photos and seen it out the
00:45:51
window of a plane and. Yeah. Very brave people to be like, I want to be there. I want to see it
00:45:58
for myself. Like adventurers, I'm sure, also probably very rich. Okay. So as they approach
00:46:05
the coast of basically Massachusetts, you know, near Boston around noon of May 6th, 1937,
00:46:11
Captain Press gets word that some thunderstorms are moving in from the south. So he redirects the
00:46:18
Hindenburg back out over the Atlantic so he can let the storms pass before heading back inland
00:46:23
and south down to Lake Hurst. So this idea that you're flying in a ship that if a storm comes,
00:46:31
like you're just gonna get tossed around. Imagine the turbulence on a Zeppelin. No, I'm getting nauseous just thinking about it.
00:46:40
No, thank you. So this redirection puts the Hindenburg over Manhattan. And of course, everybody suddenly gets a surprise view
00:46:50
of this massive airship. and it's around three o'clock in the afternoon. Of course, it causes a huge stir.
00:46:57
People come running out of their offices and out of their apartments and out onto the street to catch a view of it.
00:47:04
The Hindenburg finally reaches Lakehurst around 4.15, but the weather conditions at the airfield are still rocky.
00:47:11
So Captain Press flies back out over the Jersey shore to wait it out. So finally, the storms pass around 6.22 on May 6th
00:47:20
And Captain Press heads back to Lakehurst for landing. So the Hindenburg reaches its landing site just after 7 p.m.
00:47:30
Despite the delay, a small crowd of spectators have gathered to watch this landing.
00:47:34
And there are a few news outlets that are on site to report the event. Taking the wind direction into consideration, Captain Press initiates a wide left turn so he can properly line the airship up with its mooring mast.
00:47:47
So that's basically a tower that allows you to dock an airship in the air with cables and wires before then slowly lowering it to the ground so passengers can get on and off.
00:48:00
So to initiate descent, the crew releases some of the ship's hydrogen, but as they head downward, the wind changes and Captain Press is forced to make another sharp turn, resulting in a difficult S-shaped maneuver to line the ship up with the mast.
00:48:16
And in the midst of that, the crew has a hard time what's called trimming the ship, which means getting it to the right altitude at the right angle.
00:48:25
So more crewmen are sent to the bow of the ship to valve more hydrogen cells, which means release it.
00:48:32
Then at 725, spectators on the ground noticed the fabric above the rear fin fluttering.
00:48:40
Others claim that they saw a small blue flame at that time. and then everyone watches in horror as the rear of the Hindenburg suddenly goes up in flames.
00:48:51
Oh my God. This fire just races through the airship and the airship plummets to the ground,
00:48:58
sending flames shooting back up through the nose of the airship like a fire-breathing dragon.
00:49:03
Wow. People scream in horror and run from the burning mass. On board, it's even more terrifying.
00:49:09
those lucky enough not to be in direct line of the flames can hear its muffled reverberation
00:49:17
the glow of the flames reaches them in what feels like a fraction of a second and forces them to
00:49:23
jump out of the ship to the ground fire races to the starboard side of the ship and traps many of
00:49:30
the passengers and crew preventing them from escaping of the 12 crew members stationed in the
00:49:37
bow of the ship, nine are killed by the fire. A 14-year-old boy named Werner Franz is in his
00:49:44
cabin when the fire starts. He sees the flames. He's frozen in fear. And then miraculously,
00:49:49
a water tank over his head bursts and puts the fire out that's all around him. He snaps out of his frozen state and he runs and actually escapes the ship.
00:50:01
Another eight-year-old boy, eight-year-old Werner Gustav Doner, he and his brother are thrown out of the ship by their mother.
00:50:09
So their mother grabs them, throws them out. She jumps out after them. She breaks her hip when she lands.
00:50:17
All three of them have severe burns, but they survive. Oh, my God. So the people who jumped actually survived.
00:50:23
Yeah. What the fuck? When the ship hits the ground, Captain Pruss and the rest of the crew in the control car
00:50:29
jump out of the windows to escape. Captain Press has severe burns on his face, but he still tries
00:50:36
to go back in and rescue as many survivors as he can. He's later taken to the hospital. He survives
00:50:42
his injuries. Captain Ernest Lehman, the pilot who flew the Hindenburg for Goebbels propaganda
00:50:48
leaflet drop, he's also aboard. He is rushed to the hospital with his own injuries, but he actually
00:50:55
dies at the hospital. The Hindenburg holds a total of 7 million cubic feet of hydrogen,
00:51:01
but the gas is so light that the entire 808-foot airship burns out in just over 30 seconds.
00:51:10
Wow. And in 30 seconds, 35 people are killed. Wow. So the news of the Hindenburg disaster, of course, sweeps the nation,
00:51:19
mostly in large part to the on-scene reporting of a 31-year-old radio announcer named Herb Morrison
00:51:26
and Herb's reaction to witnessing this scene. It's so raw and heart-wrenching that NBC radio
00:51:35
breaks its own rules and it airs the recorded audio because at that time, news outlets usually
00:51:41
only air live broadcasts for authenticity, basically. So it's like nobody's edited this,
00:51:48
It's like real time. So families all across America gather around their radios and they hear Herb Morrison describing this awful scene,
00:51:56
which at this point, I mean, you know, how many years later I know what it sounds like I heard it It infamous and so horrible So Morrison describing the airship bursting into flame reach four or 500 feet into the sky Onlookers watch as the wreckage comes crashing to the ground And then at one
00:52:17
point, Morrison interrupts himself to urge the onlookers to get out of the way of the blast.
00:52:23
And then at one point, he delivers his now infamous phrase, oh, the humanity. So what caused such a terrible disaster?
00:52:32
Both the U.S. and German governments launched their own official inquiries, and several theories emerge among the public.
00:52:41
The first theory is that an engine failure within the airship could have ignited the hydrogen.
00:52:47
Dr. Echner, however, denies this theory. He says the heat generated from the exhaust of an engine failure would not be hot enough to ignite the hydrogen.
00:52:56
The second theory is that a buildup of static electricity within the airship made its way to the skin of the vessel.
00:53:02
So when the vessel came into contact with that mooring mask, wet with rain, it created a spark that triggered the fire.
00:53:10
None of the eyewitness accounts matched that. The dim blue flame that some witnesses reported seeing more closely matches another theory, which is St. Elmo's fire.
00:53:22
and St. Elmo's fire is a phenomenon that occurs when weather conditions charge the air and create
00:53:30
plasma in the air around an object. I don't know why that phrase and that like theory creeps me out
00:53:37
so much. Right. Right. It's almost like saying an act of God and then it's like, but what does that
00:53:43
mean? Right. Well, it's like an act of science. It's like all these things that are kind of always
00:53:48
there, but we don't recognize or know about them. And when I say we, I mean you and I specifically.
00:53:57
We're like plasma. That's blood. So because of the stormy conditions that day, it is possible
00:54:03
that this was the cause of the fire. But the most far out theory was that the explosion was sabotage
00:54:09
because the Hindenburg had Nazi ties. Anyone with anti-Nazi motivations could have wanted to destroy
00:54:17
the vessel. One of the first people to introduce this idea is Dr. Echner, who floats it saying that
00:54:24
there could have been a gunshot that caused the explosion. So he just heard about it. He, you know,
00:54:30
so he's theorizing, you know, basically third person. But then when he learns the details of
00:54:35
the fire, he dismisses his own theory. But other people hang on to the idea of sabotage, including
00:54:41
Captain Press because he navigated through several safe journeys aboard airships and through
00:54:48
thunderstorms. So he has a very hard time believing the static electricity theory.
00:54:53
He and others suspect a passenger by the name of Joseph Spie caused the fire. Spie is a German
00:55:00
acrobat and he was very anti-Nazi, anti-Hitler. And he was on the ship that day. He brought a dog
00:55:07
with him on the flight and he kept the dog in the freight room and he frequently visited the dog by
00:55:14
himself. He told everyone he was feeding the dog, but sabotage theorists suspect that he was actually
00:55:20
contorting himself into interior crevices to plant incendiary devices to make the ship explode.
00:55:28
There's no evidence to prove this. They basically kind of put it together from acrobat, anti-Nazi,
00:55:35
and then a dog, I guess. Yeah. So these theories offer a lot of intrigue. There are two official inquiries by both the German and the U.S. governments
00:55:46
to get to the bottom of what really happened. They both announced their findings in summer of 1937,
00:55:52
and they both agree that the most likely cause of the fire was some form of an accidental electrical spark,
00:55:59
either in the atmosphere or within the machinery of the airship itself. still no one's talking about the smoking room.
00:56:08
Yeah. No they just like there no way it could it couldn be our precious cigarettes No or like someone sneaking a cigarette and they like somewhere they shouldn have been too Seriously Right
00:56:19
Yes. Two drunks are like, yeah, my fair house, really quick. Yeah, let's just light up.
00:56:23
Really quick. Like, come on. So the Hindenburg disaster brings an abrupt end to the era of rigid airship travel.
00:56:33
Zeppelin's manufacturing wings closes its doors in 1938. The frame metal from the LZ-127 Graf Zeppelin and Graf Zeppelin II and scrap metal from the Hindenburg are repurposed for the construction of fixed wing airplanes for the Luftwaffe, which is the Nazi Air Force in World War II.
00:56:54
And then when in 1939 that PNM flight finally completes its first transatlantic flight, all rigid airship operations are done.
00:57:04
By 1940, it's all over with. Then in 1993, the Zeppelin company is revived as the Zeppelin Luftschiff Technik, GmbH, after almost 50 years of being out of commission.
00:57:18
And they develop a new helium-based airship, the Zeppelin NT, which stands for new technology.
00:57:25
They forge a partnership with Goodyear in 2011, replacing the old Goodyear blimps with three rigid airships.
00:57:33
And so the first one that they make together, the Wingfoot 1, is launched on August 23, 2014.
00:57:42
The Wingfoot 2 and 3 follow soon after, and all three are still operational today.
00:57:48
So if you see a Goodyear blimp, it's not actually a blimp anymore. It's actually a dirigible or a rigid airship.
00:57:57
Would you ever take a flight? Hell never. Hell, God no. Oh, never. While a total of 35 people died in this horrible accident, 13 passengers, 21 crew members, and one grounds crew member, 62 people miraculously survived.
00:58:18
Wow. The last survivor, Werner Gustav Doner, the one who was eight years old at the time, he just passed away on November 8th, 2019.
00:58:29
Wow. He was the last survivor of the Hindenburg disaster. In 1968, hangar number one, the intended hangar for the Hindenburg at the Lakehurst Naval Station, gets National Historic Landmark status.
00:58:44
And on May 6, 1987, a memorial at the site of the Hindenburg disaster is established to commemorate the tragedy on its 50th anniversary.
00:58:53
A chain outlines the body of the Hindenburg where it fell, and a plaque is laid at its center.
00:59:00
Today, visitors can take tours of both that hangar and the site of the crash that pays homage to the lives lost.
00:59:07
And that is the story of the Hindenburg disaster. Wow. I didn't know the details of that since I was in elementary school, probably.
00:59:16
Right. I basically only knew, oh, the humanity. I like the fire and the reporter reacting to it is kind of the only details I knew.
00:59:26
So and the video. I mean, it's not a video. It's it's snapshots that are all lined up to make a video.
00:59:31
Probably. Right. Yeah. Newsreel. I don't know. Maybe it's newsreel. It's probably newsreel.
00:59:36
That is crazy that we have that footage. Yeah. Right. Wow. Great job. Do you know, I once heard that the reason the band Led Zeppelin was named that was because
00:59:48
they were named something else in the beginning and then a music critic said they were so bad
00:59:53
they were gonna they were gonna crash like a led zeppelin yeah they were gonna go over like a led
00:59:58
zeppelin right yeah fuck you critic you don't know shit wow great job thank you that was a good one
01:00:08
such a good that was a great one wait we need to ask our listeners right now what are you even doing
01:00:14
Oh hey what are you doing right now What are you doing Hey we now end the episode with you telling us what you doing what you even doing right now So here a couple of them Okay This says I heard the question and I here to answer
01:00:27
I'm a third mate on merchant ships. Most days are long coastwise or ocean transits, standing watch and navigating, watching blips
01:00:36
on radar screens and going in a straight line more often than not. So usually I'm on the bridge or ship bobbing around in the ocean at 2 a.m.
01:00:44
moving our things from one place to another. Wow. All right. I'm typically the only woman on the
01:00:49
ship. So some female energy and humor is much appreciated. Thanks for keeping me company.
01:00:54
Stay sexy and don't run aground, Devin. Oh my God. That might be like the best view anyone ever had
01:01:02
while listening to this podcast. You know what I mean? Yes. Don't go to the North Sea, Devin.
01:01:07
Oh my God. That's amazing. Okay. Mine's quick. It's a little conversation back and forth on
01:01:12
TikTok. Caitlin Preston says, hashtag what are you even doing right now? I was grabbing samples
01:01:17
at the wastewater plant I work at. And then Annie Marie responds and says, I work for a wastewater
01:01:23
slash stormwater utility too. I'm on the stormwater side. And then Caitlin responds, cool. Hi,
01:01:29
wave emoji. And that's it. Bringing murderinos together. Wastewater besties. Hi.
01:01:36
Wastewater murderinos. Is that a thing? What are you even doing right now while you're listening?
01:01:41
Let us know in the comment. Yes, please tell us. And thank you guys for listening in this crazy time and place.
01:01:49
We are all in together by some weird coincidence or it's the Matrix and here we are.
01:01:56
Oh, it's fate. Either way, rise up, rise up, rise up, rise up. Yeah, we got this.
01:02:01
And stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
01:02:17
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
01:02:22
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalache. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Allie Elkin.
01:02:30
Email your hometowns to MyFavoriteMurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder and Twitter at MyFaveMurder.
01:02:38
Goodbye! Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.
01:02:48
Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories
01:02:55
I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
01:03:01
And he went out the front door, and he jumped in a car and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him.
01:03:05
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:03:13
You think you're in control until you realize you're not. As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air,
01:03:22
many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft. I thought we were going to die then.
01:03:27
The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn. Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything.
01:03:37
New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the iHeart Podcast Network.
01:03:42
Listen to The Knife on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:03:47
I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world.
01:03:57
Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on.
01:04:04
Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world.
01:04:09
I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018.
01:04:15
The Justice Department, through we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims.
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Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.