00:00:00
This is exactly right. an average annual single-line payment of AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile customers
00:00:32
compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Wireless plan as of January 2026.
00:00:35
For full offer details, visit BoostMobile.com. I like things my way. My coffee, my schedule, and my treatment.
00:00:41
So I talk to my doctor about self-injecting with the VivGuard Hytrulo Pre-Filled Syringe,
00:00:46
which contains F-Guard Tegamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously.
00:00:53
It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit VivGuardMyWay.com.
00:01:00
That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T my way dot com. And talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hattrulo.
00:01:05
Brought to you by Argenics. Did you know not all batteries are the same? For example, only Duracell batteries are built different with power boost ingredients.
00:01:14
And Duracell are the only batteries that make this sound every time you say power boost ingredients.
00:01:19
See? Duracell batteries with power boost ingredients. You try. Duracell batteries and power boost ingredients.
00:01:27
Told you. Duracell batteries are built different with Power Boost ingredients. And they're built right here in the USA with U.S. and Global Parts.
00:01:53
Hello! And welcome. to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right. We are back here to cover episode three of My Favorite Murder, also with Karen and Georgia.
00:02:06
That's right. So here's the deal. We're re-listening to our original old school episodes.
00:02:11
We're going to add new commentary to our favorite moments from the show. And once we stop cringing, we are going to reflect on our humble beginnings.
00:02:21
We're going to discuss important case updates about the murders that we talk about.
00:02:26
And we're going to talk about all the things that have changed since way back when.
00:02:32
The original air date for this is January 31st, 2016. Seems like a lifetime ago.
00:02:38
It is 100 years of solitude ago. Now you can invite your book club and your pushy neighbors and your favorite apathetic
00:02:48
arborists so we can all be day one listeners. That's a group that I want to listen to podcasts
00:02:55
with. Apathetic arborists? Yeah. Yeah. They're just so stuck up about trees. I will not stop
00:03:00
talking about trees. It's a very funny note to a listener, just so you know, because this really is
00:03:06
a painful exercise for Georgia and I in so many ways. I think we've already equated it to listening
00:03:12
to your own answering machine message. Obviously, we volunteered for it, so our fault entirely.
00:03:17
Yeah. But very difficult to to actually press play and try to relisten ourselves.
00:03:23
It really is. So what's beautiful about that is that we have many talented producers here at Exactly Right Media and on My Favorite Murder who have been working for a very long time, basically taking notes on all of these episodes and telling us on paper what is in the episode.
00:03:40
Yeah, because we tried the first one or two to listen to ourselves and take our own notes.
00:03:44
And I was just sweating the whole time. It was a mess. I couldn't see my writing through my tears because of the kinds of things.
00:03:52
Just a disaster. So this will actually be fun for us. That's the whole idea. This is fun.
00:03:57
We're looking back. We're looking forward. We're looking around. We already lived through the mistakes and suffered through the repercussions of those mistakes.
00:04:06
All of the listeners and other people that have been here with us know that and they know that they know those learning arcs that we've been through.
00:04:14
So now we just want to have fun looking back at the other stuff that happened in all those episodes.
00:04:20
That's right. For example, both stories in today's episode, episode three, deal with the deaths of children, which is something we're a little more cautious of covering these days.
00:04:30
Yeah, it's clearly in this episode, we are very new. We don't think anyone can hear us. And we are just having essentially a true crime kind of recap conversation. And there's, you know, sensitivity issues that like, of course, in this day and age, and after all, we've learned and gone through, the conversation would go incredibly differently.
00:04:53
Absolutely. These are two cases that we're both still pretty obsessed with ourselves.
00:04:58
Yes. So I think we would have covered them no matter what. And they're important stories to tell.
00:05:03
And there are updates on both of them. So that's exciting. It's very cool. The funny thing that someone figured out is that this episode of My Favorite Murder came out on a Sunday when the first two episodes had already come out on Thursdays.
00:05:16
And whoever the person was taking notes was like, do you guys know why? Just like because no one knew what they were doing.
00:05:25
None of us had any true idea that this was supposed to be real. Yeah. A business.
00:05:30
A job. Yeah. We didn't know anyone was listening to care what day it came out on.
00:05:34
And we didn't know that podcasts were supposed to come out on like. There was no reality to this.
00:05:40
It was amateur hour, essentially. I mean, and I think we've kept that energy of amateur hour all throughout.
00:05:47
We've been authentic. We've been our authentic amateur selves. You guys know it.
00:05:52
So you about to listen to the top of episode three where George and I are just chatting with each other as we do on this show Time machine It time to rewind Here we go
00:06:06
How do we... Hi. How do we start talking about murder? I don't know. Hey, Karen.
00:06:13
How was your day? It was pretty good. Did you get murdered? I did. I lived through today.
00:06:18
How about yourself? Didn't get murdered. See, that's all we want. Yeah. This is my favorite murder.
00:06:23
I'm Georgia. I'm Karen. Let's start with a piece of news based on murdery stuff.
00:06:30
Okay, good. Okay, so you know how one of the many ways that you can collect and present evidence is by matching hair follicles from the scene to the person or the murderer or whatever?
00:06:42
Yep. Turns out it's a completely bunk science. No. Yes. And the Justice Department is acknowledging that nearly every examiner of an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all trials in which they offered evidence against criminal defendants over more than two decade period.
00:07:01
No. 95% of the 268 trials viewed so far says that they overstated forensic matches.
00:07:11
Holy. No, this is humongous. No, because I've seen shows where they do this, and I'm like, great, legit, that's crazy.
00:07:18
I feel like every forensic files that I've seen. The hair magic. Right, and they're pulling up those microscopic things, the slides.
00:07:27
And you see the ridges, and you see the color. It turns out in one of the cases, it turned out to be dog hair that they found.
00:07:34
Oh, shit. It wasn't even human hair, and the guy got convicted on it. Do you know that in the guy, it's the Atlanta child killings?
00:07:41
that got that guy they only had him on carpet fibers holy shit which one's that he that's the
00:07:47
one where there was tons of little kids in atlanta little black kids only that were getting murdered
00:07:53
and they had this guy and he is super suspicious because he was like do you want to be a star
00:07:58
posters all around the neighborhood and he had a recording studio which is like textbook like
00:08:04
pedophilic entrapment stuff or also a way to get a star a young star on the rise but
00:08:12
these kids were like getting dumped they were getting murdered and then thrown into the river
00:08:19
so like and and then one night it was like connected to him because one night someone
00:08:24
was near the bridge where a kid was rolled up in carpet and dumped over and then his car was
00:08:30
spotted like somewhere nearby yeah and they they they got him on it but it was all about matching
00:08:38
the carpet the kid was wrapped up in to carpet somewhere else in the home or in the car yeah he
00:08:44
like there was a big piece of carpet cut out of his house yeah i think so i mean now it's stupid
00:08:50
right yes but the idea of that were because it's such a believable piece of evidence well you know
00:08:57
what another one is that's might be flawed that is one of my favorite ways to collect evidence
00:09:03
besides handwriting analysis is blood spatter evidence that they're they might totally debunk
00:09:09
that too really i fuck i feel like it it's i mean yeah i guess it doesn't have how do you
00:09:16
scientifically prove those things true every for every single time uh which of course puts me in
00:09:23
the mind of the staircase where all that blood spatter. And I mean, that was a big part of that
00:09:28
documentary was all that, but, but are they saying that the science of how it lands and
00:09:36
all that kind of stuff isn't real? Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can't call it scientific
00:09:41
evidence because it's not science. It's kind of like conjecture. It's like, yeah. And magic talk.
00:09:48
so are when do they get to the part where they throw out owls because i feel like if you can
00:09:55
use these things to get someone to confess then great but using it like the only thing
00:10:00
to convict someone that's insane yeah well but also i think it's fascinating uh like the um
00:10:10
memphis west memphis three where you can get stupid people to confess very easily right that's
00:10:16
true and keep and the those tactics the other thing they need to reform is like keeping people
00:10:21
in a room for 12 hours with no food and water and asking them the same question over and over
00:10:27
and eventually having them just kind of go insane and want to be out of there lead the conversation
00:10:33
yeah um you convince them that they did it they're not confessing because they want to get
00:10:38
out of there sometimes it's like maybe i fucking did it and forgot they tell yeah they tell you
00:10:42
all these possibilities. It's crazy. It is super crazy. However, if there's some fucking creepy ass dude
00:10:47
and there's a missing blonde kid and they find a long blonde hair in his trunk, why would that long blonde hair be in there?
00:10:56
Because he's a wig maker. Because his mother has long blonde hair. Because this.
00:11:00
Yeah. It's the kind of thing where it's like saying being creepy is illegal. Yeah.
00:11:06
That's the problem. Yeah. It's that thing of like, you can't wear a black shirt.
00:11:10
depending on which part of the country you live in right certain things aren't allowed
00:11:14
so that culturally that ties into my favorite murder today it does it really i want to hear
00:11:20
your let's do let's tell each other our favorite murders okay wait you don't want to use that
00:11:24
natural segue to go into yours because i feel like then i would be talking too much
00:11:29
but you know this is a podcast right okay i'll go into mine get into talking okay
00:11:36
We talk about the staircase owl theory a lot in the beginning of this show. I feel like it was kind of, you know, the staircase had just come out.
00:11:50
It's how we first met, talking about it. It was very relevant and kind of pop culture at the time People were blown away I can these notes they give us that our producers give us keep saying like what do you think now And I actually don remember I gone back and forth so many times
00:12:07
on whether it's the owl or the husband. I mean, I was very dismissive of the owl theory being an ornithologist myself. What's the term?
00:12:16
I just was dismissive of it in the way that it really felt like someone was trying to figure
00:12:21
out a way to get somebody off a murder charge. But having heard, of course, in that time,
00:12:28
it explained that idea that tiny feathers were found in her hair and explanations.
00:12:36
Scientific explanations. Scientific-based explanations. Can you imagine? But all of it is still, that's why we continually talk about not being experts, is because we all,
00:12:49
just like every average person on the internet, it's all just a bunch of people who read the same
00:12:54
article pretending that they know more than other people. So of course I have no idea. And if the
00:12:59
OWL theory eventually gets proven, I will laugh along the loudest at me for having argued it that
00:13:05
hard. But like, to me, it seems like of all the possibilities, knowing about, you know, domestic
00:13:13
violence or women being murdered in their home, it's just like you're pulling out a theory.
00:13:17
Right. And the circumstances of their actual life. I mean, yeah. You know what we need is one more documentary. Just one more. Throw it in and out there.
00:13:24
I'd watch it for sure. That's so fucking Luli. Did you, wait, you did watch the series.
00:13:29
Oh my God. It was excellent. I still haven't. I just remembered that right this second.
00:13:33
I'm so jealous. What's it called? Is it called The Staircase? Yeah, it's called The Staircase. You can watch it on max.
00:13:39
I'm so jealous of your weekend, like this weekend coming up. Yay. Wow. If nothing else, the Rewind series has brought me this piece of information and improved my life.
00:13:50
That's right. Okay, so we're going to go into my story. I'm telling the story of Cameron Todd Willingham.
00:13:58
I mean, devastating. I was telling Georgia earlier, this is one of the cases, but I think this case most of all.
00:14:06
I think about this case and this man once a month. Yeah, me too. It's crazy. And because we didn't cite sources back way back when.
00:14:16
My sources are The New Yorker, an article called Trial by Fire by David Gran and Wikipedia.
00:14:23
I'll have a couple updates and recommendations at the end of my story. So here is my favorite murder.
00:14:34
Hey, everyone. It's Cal Penn, host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
00:14:40
This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Will Wheaton, who played Gordy Lachance in Stand By Me 40 years ago
00:14:47
and now narrates Stephen King's The Body, the novella that inspired it all. We talk about what it's like to return to a story that shaped his life,
00:14:56
channeling his memories of River Phoenix in the recording booth, and why the friendships you have at 12 might be the most important ones you'll ever have.
00:15:04
I know Gordy Lachance. I am Gordy Lachance. Like, I mean, even when I was a little kid, I was Gordie LeChance when I didn't know it.
00:15:14
Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:15:20
Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford.
00:15:27
It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple, and it's loved by millions of women.
00:15:34
It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types, and it's designed to work as a complete skincare system,
00:15:40
leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth, and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's Full Regiment,
00:15:45
which contains all five of her best-selling products, including the amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum.
00:15:51
This next-generation serum has the power of Melon Leaf stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin
00:15:59
to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five-star reviews, why not give it a try?
00:16:06
Subscribe today and you can get the amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95.
00:16:10
That includes our introductory five-piece system, free gifts, free shipping, and a 60-day money-back guarantee.
00:16:17
All of that available at MeaningfulBeauty.com. Your pet is your bestie. Your therapist, your perfect match.
00:16:26
It's easy to love them. It's easy to protect them, too, with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best.
00:16:31
because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't. And you get a vet bill to match.
00:16:38
With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world.
00:16:43
Get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills from less than a dollar a day. Pets Best has plans to cover accidents, injuries, and more,
00:16:51
from puppies and kittens to seniors. Find your perfect match plan and get a quote at PetsBest.com.
00:16:57
Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC,
00:17:00
are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company.
00:17:03
For terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com backslash policy. Products are underwritten by
00:17:08
American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company, or MS Transverse Insurance Company
00:17:11
and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1 a day premium based on 2024 average
00:17:16
new policyholder data for accident and illness plans pets age zero to 10. As a segue into mine is this person had
00:17:26
like Led Zeppelin and like death metal band posters on the wall so they were like he's but i feel like it was early 90s yeah so this my
00:17:35
favorite murder is um a man was tried and convicted and put to death for this murder oh shit but it
00:17:43
might probably isn't a murder in the first place what have you heard of oh my god have i not heard
00:17:50
of this one that i would that what i would love okay his name is cameron todd willingham In the early 90s he busted out of his house that was engulfed in flames and his three little daughters died in it
00:18:06
Oh, no. Have you heard of this one? It's like a big, it's a big case about like the Innocence Project and debunking the arson investigator's testimony that ended up being just completely bullshit and wrong.
00:18:18
Oh, no. Yeah. Dead children. High stakes. We start out high stakes on this one. Yeah.
00:18:25
He was fucking put to death for this. Okay. Fuck Texas. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. Don't mess.
00:18:31
So, yeah, he, and they think that how it really started. So the arson investigator said that they found puddles where accelerant would have been and, like, the outline of where the accelerant had been, you know, distributed around the apartment or the house because the burns don't happen this way.
00:18:50
And this is what fires do. And here's, you know, we've been studying this for years and years.
00:18:54
Right. But we all saw backdraft. Right. Exactly. So it turns out that that's just bullshit.
00:19:00
And the neighbors and the firefighters and all the people who initially got there said that he seemed so insanely distraught and was trying to get back into the house.
00:19:08
But he couldn't because it was on fire. And then they later changed their testimony.
00:19:12
Like, yeah, he was too upset. I think it was fake. And no, he didn't seem upset at all.
00:19:16
He moved his car. And then they said he moved his he said he moved his car so it wouldn't explode and add to the fire.
00:19:22
It had been caught on fire. Right. I don't know. But maybe he's guilty, though. I mean, maybe, but so sorry, would he be guilty of wanting his family dead?
00:19:31
Just like, was his wife gone? His wife was gone at the time, and he said he was sleeping and heard his daughter say daddy, and it was already smoke, heavy smoke.
00:19:43
So he left the house with the children inside. Yeah, he said he tried to get to them, but the fire had originated in their bedroom.
00:19:51
The children? Yes. Okay. So he couldn't get to them. hmm and he tried to go back in he tried breaking windows i know i was like of one mind when you
00:20:00
started this story that just turned me hard well here's what they say probably happened
00:20:05
and i kind of can see this and believe it that they're they used um space heaters yes those
00:20:12
things are deadly yeah old junky space heaters that literally are on fire the daughter like to
00:20:18
lay near it and fuck with it. And her fucking blankie probably caught on fire. And her cheap Kmart polyester pajamas.
00:20:25
Yes. Yeah. Wait, this was the nineties? Yes. 91. When I was growing up, those pajamas were covered in stuff that caught on fire.
00:20:34
How are we not dead from the eighties and nineties? It's a miracle. It's like anyone that's my age is,
00:20:39
is a total kind of just a walking miracle. Yeah. That we got to this point. No seatbelts.
00:20:45
No, you got left home alone. all the time can you imagine having a kid and watching them fucking run full throttle into
00:20:52
death fuck well here's the thing it's that thing like it's the moralistic thing of oh no man uh
00:21:01
which kind of it goes back to that the thing that happened the last episode when we talked about
00:21:06
like no man would let his wife get raped in front of him or whatever right it makes me want to say
00:21:10
that of like no man would leave a house where his three children are burning right but the instinct
00:21:16
to get out to live and the heat the amount of heat i mean think of like the last time you cooked
00:21:22
something and like the pan was hot and you touched a pan yeah that's what the walls would have been
00:21:27
like if the house is on fire i mean reading his account it sounds like it was and it was already
00:21:34
up in smoke and he came out got a breath and tried to go back in but just it was
00:21:38
walls and black smoke and you couldn't get in what's the poster like the metal posters and stuff
00:21:43
what is that about um there was like an iron maiden poster that had like a skull and cross
00:21:48
bones on it and they're like he's satanic and he's a sociopath and here's the proof because he
00:21:53
has a like a like a sword and a heart tattoo on his arm so he's in the cult cultism and satanism
00:22:01
and it's just that kind of small that small town shit you know yes in the 90s and now that would
00:22:06
be anyone if you went to intelligentsia right now it's like oh so this whole place is filled
00:22:10
with sataness although i have a feeling like there's places in this country where you could
00:22:15
still get you know that's evidence towards you being a murderer still yeah for sure thank god
00:22:21
we don't live there because and also think of how creepy it would be if you were the fire investigator
00:22:25
and you were walking through a burnt house and you see but because that's those people they're
00:22:31
just people and they're just civil servants so like they go in and see dead children in a room
00:22:37
their first responders that's a huge emotional reaction yeah they look up and see a pentagram
00:22:43
poster or whatever the thing is and they're not thinking uh let's not be reactionary or whatever
00:22:49
they're just human beings going this whole thing looks like living hell yeah or look at this
00:22:53
pentagram let's look for the accelerant traces and you can find them if you look or you know
00:22:59
i can't remember how they explained away the um accelerant maybe that oh they did say something
00:23:05
word that i was like meh that there was accelerant in the door frame yeah like lighter fluid and when
00:23:11
the firefighters came there was a barbecue grill on the porch maybe that's it got blasted off and
00:23:17
that's how the lighter fluid got there which sounds like a little fishy but it could happen
00:23:23
it totally and also it doesn't sound like they they didn't it wasn't like they're running a
00:23:29
tight ship over there right right it doesn't sound like it if you have shitty old space heaters yeah
00:23:34
Probably the rest of your house is like a lot of random paper towels in bad places and stuff, right?
00:23:40
I mean. Oh, there was a refrigerator blocking the second door in the kitchen and all this, you know.
00:23:45
But my dad used to talk all the time because my dad was a San Francisco fireman.
00:23:49
And he would talk constantly about how stupid people were about stuff. Like at Christmas when they would not water their tree, cover it in lights, leave the lights on all night.
00:23:59
Oh, my God. And then, and everything's next to old curtains or like the people don't even realize, or like,
00:24:05
I'll just take the time right now to tell everybody, clean out the lint trap in your
00:24:10
dryer. Every time you do a load of dry, every time you dry a load, because that's the number
00:24:16
one way people's houses catch on fire. Wow. You know, when you pull off like that big crazy sweater of lint trap.
00:24:21
Because it's so much fun to seal the lint trap. It's the, like, right. And it's like a big thing, but that's how people's houses catch on fire.
00:24:28
Also battery. I heard the thing about batteries. If you leave like a D battery out and near another one, they can spark somehow together and light on fire.
00:24:35
Is that true? It's like Jesus. The most like crazy way. Yeah. I worry all the time.
00:24:40
I know. Well, and some people don't at all. I know. And that's why shit like that happens.
00:24:44
They're just like, you know, we'll see what happens. But that's fucked up. Three little kids died because of that.
00:24:50
Either way. And in the beginning, his wife was like, he's absolutely innocent on his side.
00:24:55
And later she divorced him and kind of went back and forth between if he was innocent or guilty.
00:25:00
In the end, when he was put to death, she thought he was guilty. But she went back and forth a couple times.
00:25:07
How could you not? And also, it's not, you didn't lose one child. You lost all of your children.
00:25:12
All of them. And now there's kind of a backlash because there was a prison informant that he shared a cell with who testified that this,
00:25:25
this uh cameron willingham guy uh confessed to the murders but now it's coming that he
00:25:31
actually had been like paid with money and less jail time to testify yep and uh yeah jailhouse
00:25:39
uh tests oh yeah like it's also in how do you ever go no this guy's really telling the truth
00:25:47
this time this one is trustworthy this is it because it perfectly fits our investigation and
00:25:52
what we need to hear right now. And now we have the information. I have a hard time when like in
00:25:56
this article that I was reading, it's not in the New Yorker, it's called trial by fire. Um,
00:26:01
they were saying that like his parole officer had said how nice and sweet he was, which I,
00:26:06
I can never sociopaths are the nicest, most charming people you'll ever meet. So I don't
00:26:11
believe any of that. I don't give a shit about nice. Nice does not qualify for anything with me
00:26:16
because it's the easiest way to be right. Nice is not a big deal. I don't like charming. I'm
00:26:22
creeped out by charming people yeah well they want something right i mean everybody does but
00:26:27
like if you're gonna be if you're gonna put the energy behind being charming yeah then there's
00:26:31
something going on there's an agenda at play also if you feel like you need to please every single
00:26:35
person that you meet you've got a fucking emotional mental issue that yeah there's something going on
00:26:40
right i mean truly at the end of the day give me an asshole and i don't mean that the way you
00:26:45
think and want me to mean it think about it yeah but you know what you stand by that
00:26:52
I stand by it in every interpretation. No. Of just like people who are self-possessed enough to not care what other people think or need to manipulate what other people think.
00:27:03
That's what it is. It's like, I'm going to make you think this certain thing about me.
00:27:07
Yeah. That's the problematic thing. That scares me so much that I just don't ever believe anyone until I know them well enough.
00:27:15
But I think that's the healthiest way. Yeah, that's true. Because I remember being in my twenties and getting tricked by plenty of people who I'm sure were sociopaths or just deep narcissists.
00:27:26
Yeah. And you kind of, I think eventually you learn, you know, you just start picking up on those signs and that's a good thing.
00:27:35
That's what we're supposed to do. This is my therapy session. Let's like, let's do half murder, half, half, uh, kind of a psychological analysis of how to be.
00:27:47
it's all intertwined we should tell everyone who else are they going to hear it from
00:27:53
right mystery novels, an actress who adapts his book into a film, and what happens when a meme and a media tour collide with a slow burn romance.
00:28:27
It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Su, and it is an absolute blast. When you actually hear the performance,
00:28:36
you realize that other people are taking your words and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like,
00:28:42
the cat in the corner is black. In my head, it's the cat in the corner is black,
00:28:47
Not the dog, not the gerbil, but someone else might say it. The cat in the corner is black.
00:28:52
That's always fascinating to me. How they just bring in all these different nuances and really make it fun and interesting and distinctive.
00:29:00
Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:29:13
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age.
00:29:24
Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age?
00:29:30
That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.
00:29:38
Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.
00:29:47
Your pet is your bestie. Your therapist, your perfect match. It's easy to love them.
00:29:54
It easy to protect them too with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best Because it all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn and you get a vet bill to match with
00:30:05
perfect timing pets best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world
00:30:10
get up to 90 cash back on eligible vet bills from less than a dollar a day pets best has plans to
00:30:16
cover accidents injuries and more from puppies and kittens to seniors find your perfect match plan
00:30:21
and get a quote at petsbest.com. Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best
00:30:26
Insurance Services LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence
00:30:29
American Insurance Company. For terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com backslash
00:30:33
policy. Products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American
00:30:36
Insurance Company, or MS Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance
00:30:40
Services LLC. One dollar a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident
00:30:44
and illness plans. Pets age zero to 10. There was my story. Yeah, that was just such a wild
00:30:53
miscarriage of justice. Everything, retelling, like all of it. What a great choice to have
00:30:59
for your story because really that's like, I think this is what the true true crime fans that are
00:31:05
the hardcore, you know, they don't want any chit chat. They don't want anything.
00:31:09
They want to talk about these cases. They want to go over the facts. This is what they're looking for.
00:31:14
It's because we, I don't know, there's something about us true crime people who just want to look at
00:31:19
the ugliest side of humanity because we know it's there and I can't bury my head in the sand. I've
00:31:26
never been able to and pretend it's not. So like show it to me completely. And at that point,
00:31:31
I'll be able to handle it. Or like, or anticipate or be able to recognize in the moment, oh, this is
00:31:38
what happened to that person. I'm seeing the same signs or something. It's like, we're telling
00:31:42
ourselves that it's going to give us some sort of experience that will help us in the future or save
00:31:48
this in the future. But then this one where no one knows what's going on here. And the more people
00:31:55
interact with this, the worse it gets, not the better. That's not what we're used to as a story.
00:32:01
Yeah. So here's some updates. In 2014, the State Bar of Texas formally accused the state prosecutor
00:32:07
overseeing the case, John Jackson, of misconduct. Specifically, the board accused Jackson of making
00:32:14
false statements, concealing evidence and obstructing justice. There's like a bunch of
00:32:18
stuff, including the jailhouse snitch, having been promised favorable treatment and in return for
00:32:24
testimony at Willingham's trial. And in 2017, a Texas jury found that Jackson had not committed
00:32:30
misconduct. So since then, the family of Willingham has been seeking a pardon for him. And that's
00:32:38
still in the, it seems like that's still in the process. There's a 2010 documentary called Death
00:32:43
by fire from Frontline that I highly recommend that tells the story. And it's just this hole
00:32:49
you could fall into finding out more info about the case. I mean, the idea that the state bar
00:32:55
accused the prosecutor, they went through the whole thing and then they were like, no,
00:33:01
he's not guilty or that didn't happen. That's one more wrinkle that no one needed on a case.
00:33:08
There's still no satisfaction. There's still no direct anything. Awful. So frustrating.
00:33:15
So we go from there, as is our style, into my story. So I just want to warn everybody, it's the Oakland County child killer case.
00:33:24
Again, murdered children, which is really sensitive. But in this story, I use the outdated term for child sexual assault material.
00:33:33
So I just want to put that out there. Very difficult story to listen to. most people know it so here it is uh what's your favorite murder karen my favorite murder this week
00:33:47
is uh one that i was so i've been so excited to talk about because i this was one of those ones
00:33:54
where i went deep wikipedia one night alone and had no it was too late at night and often there
00:34:00
are not very many friends i have that i can be like yes what not until i met you yeah we're the
00:34:06
only people that won't text back are you okay are you doing okay what's really going on yeah um so
00:34:13
there were these four kids were murdered in oakland county uh michigan in the late 70s and
00:34:21
they this whole case was called the oakland county child killings and sounds fucking awesome already
00:34:28
right so they found a 12 year old boy kidnapped and raped and smothered and that was the first one
00:34:35
Um, and, uh, then like a week later at these, I, I didn't write down, I didn't do my super
00:34:44
accurate homework, but if people are coming here for facts, they're in the wrong fucking
00:34:47
place. Yeah. And also I, it's all off Wikipedia, so you can get it and really, really enjoy it for
00:34:53
yourself firsthand, but essentially all 11 and 12 year old children. And so it goes a boy and then a girl, a 12 year old girl was found kidnapped, not raped,
00:35:04
Right. Bathed, fed, and then shot point blank and left in the snow. How was the first kid killed?
00:35:12
Smothered. Smothered. So those aren't the same murderer, probably. Well. Right? They don't, they probably didn't connect them then.
00:35:21
Okay. But then the third kid, who was an 11-year-old boy, who was kidnapped. And so he was gone for like, he disappeared.
00:35:33
And so on, say the seventh day or whatever, they went on the, the parents went on the news and said, please, you know, bring him home so we can give him his favorite dinner, Kentucky fried chicken.
00:35:45
You know, the thing they do to personalize. And the next day they found his body.
00:35:50
Don't tell me he had Kentucky fried chicken in his belly. Rape smothered with Kentucky fried chicken left in his belly No Exactly what you didn want to hear Oh my God And he was also washed like the girl was
00:36:05
His nails were trimmed. His clothes were spotless. They were washed and pressed.
00:36:12
And his body was still warm when they found it. So that's when they knew something super terrible was happening.
00:36:19
Oh, my God. And then the last girl was 11 and she was, she disappeared. She was kidnapped and then she was found murdered.
00:36:29
So the girls were not sexually interfered with and the boys were raped. So that was just, that was like a big thing that happened.
00:36:39
And they called, they, so after they got all that information, they called him the babysitter killer, which is, it's fucked up and almost sweet to him.
00:36:47
Because the way he treated the kids. Because the way he, well, because of the way he left them, which kind of implies the way he treated them was nice, except for we all know that's not true and imagine.
00:37:00
Because he kept them for a while, which is the nightmare part. Alive, alive. Alive.
00:37:07
So, yeah. So that's horrifying. I feel like when you're alive, there's some chance of escape.
00:37:14
Like there's some hope left. Yes. Well, while it's still happening, for sure. Yeah. But then it's just that thing of like, uh, it's the, it, it goes to the total insanity and,
00:37:28
and I don't know what depravity. I wish I knew the difference. Yes. Depravity for sure. But like
00:37:34
when you're really psychotic or whatever, where you're keeping the thing you're going to murder,
00:37:40
like, you know, this is all the plan. And so you're keeping a child, like a pet or whatever.
00:37:46
It's just beyond. But when they started looking at the suspects that were around Oakland County, one of the people, and this is where I went down the hole.
00:37:59
One of the people that was a suspect was like a 24-year-old rich kid. And his name, shit, I'm not going to find it.
00:38:08
Dang it. It's okay. Christopher Bush. Okay. So his father was like either the GM or the vice president of one of the huge motor companies.
00:38:22
Wait, it might have been GM. And his father was the vice president of GM or one of those ones.
00:38:27
Hugely rich. He was always in this big mansion by himself. His parents were always like working or on vacation or whatever.
00:38:33
And there was a constant stream of young boys coming in and out of the house. Why?
00:38:38
Because he was a child monster. So he was paying kids to come over and whatever.
00:38:44
And so he got arrested for sexual assault and child molestation several times. Like he was a known pedophile.
00:38:52
How the fuck those people stay out? Because he was rich. So they always bought him out of jail and cleared him and whatever and tried to do stuff.
00:39:02
So they went and found him and started looking through his room and looking through all his stuff.
00:39:08
And they thought that they found a picture of one of the boys. I think it was supposed to be Tim, the third one, screaming like a drawing of him with his hoodie on.
00:39:20
Because I think they said he was found in a hoodie or something. So it was a picture of him with the hoodie looking like he was in total terror.
00:39:28
But they don't know for sure that that's who the face was, but that's what he looked like.
00:39:32
And so it was like it was the circumstantial evidence. That's such a small thing to go on, though.
00:39:36
Yeah. And they were trying to put all that together. But apparently his room was really messy and filled with all kinds of creepy stuff.
00:39:42
And then one of the things that they connected, because apparently, so that kid Christopher Bush, they confiscated eight rolls of film in his room.
00:39:52
And it was all kiddie porn. Holy shit. And then they find out, and this is the thing that stuff like this is what makes me so fascinated.
00:40:03
It piques my interest in it. It's probably the writer in me where it's like, this is such a good story, separate from tragedy or whatever.
00:40:11
They figure out that there is an island. So I guess there's like an island chain up way north in the peninsula area of Michigan.
00:40:21
And one of them is called North Fox Island. And it was empty, they thought. And they find out that there is a Christian boys camp.
00:40:31
a a there's a camp like saint somebody's for uh wayward boys on north fox island the only way to
00:40:40
get on or off the island is by plane there's one airstrip down the center of it and that when they
00:40:46
go to investigate the this island uh they find out that they had set up this fake boys camp to get um
00:40:55
boys uh like poor children who would sign up for a place like that so it was like this free thing
00:41:02
like come and they were all being used in kitty porn it was just a kitty porn ring it was a kitty
00:41:08
porn ring so then when they showed up that's what was happening and it was nightmare i mean like
00:41:13
that's like a friday the 13th freddy krueger nightmare movie right there so they had all
00:41:18
these people that they suspected. Um, and they found a man named Ted Lamborghini who they, uh,
00:41:29
they got on kitty on those kitty porn charges where he was definitely involved in that, that
00:41:35
there was the ring that they busted in the bad part of Detroit. He was somehow definitely linked
00:41:42
to it or whatever it was. And then, Oh, and this was a thing where a prisoner, a detective from
00:41:47
Detroit was out in California interviewing someone about something else. And then the prisoner was like, I know who your babysitter killer is.
00:41:54
Holy shit And says it Ted Lambergine I knew him from this pedophile ring He basically pointed to a picture and said doesn that look like Tim whoever the third little boy
00:42:05
Oh, my God. And so that detective went back and went and they started casing this guy who is now 70 and only leaves his house to go to church.
00:42:15
And da-da-da and like living like this silent old man that no one knows anything about.
00:42:19
And then they go into his house and they find all this evidence. and he will not admit that he was the babysitter killer.
00:42:26
But he for sure, like, all the evidence points to it. All the evidence points to that.
00:42:30
And they have him on all the pedophile charges and all the ring charges and all that.
00:42:36
Does he, when did this happen? When did he get busted? 2005. Oh my God. Yeah. So, and they, oh, Christopher Bush,
00:42:46
the rich kid killed himself in 1978. So they kind of, like, assumed it was him. because there was all that weird evidence and stuff.
00:42:54
So then the Ted Lamborghini thing, they like kind of came out of the blue. So they're arresting the 70-year-old
00:43:00
and that's how it's ending? Well, they got him on the other charges, but they can't get him.
00:43:05
They don't have enough hard evidence on those murders, but they're positive. They lined up because he also,
00:43:12
the murder stopped when he moved to Cleveland. And when he moved to Cleveland, he started going to church every day.
00:43:18
And they think that the priest there knows, like they think he confessed to that priest and the priest isn't saying it yeah they there's all
00:43:25
kinds of things like that that are very clear and it was like the days he wasn't at work or the days
00:43:31
the children disappeared all kinds of stuff those are always so interesting to me or like finding out
00:43:36
that someone you know had someone clock in for them even though they or they have an alibi and
00:43:41
it turns out it's total bullshit and here's how they know and like that's just yes that's so
00:43:44
fascinating the detective work that it takes to yeah find that and also those poor detectives
00:43:49
like the way your life gets affected by having to go and investigate these people. I mean,
00:43:56
nothing justifies the crazy murdering that's happening on the street of most black people
00:44:02
today in America. I will never, I never, ever mean anything is justified in that way.
00:44:07
What I mean is that when you, like as a detective, when you have to visit time and again,
00:44:13
people who are depraved so it's not just crime or like i'm desperate and on drugs and so i'm doing
00:44:22
this thing i'm gonna fight with my wife and kill her yeah it's the depravity of like a child
00:44:26
rapist murderer coming face to face with the actual evil thing which you and i probably never
00:44:32
will unless we switch it out but these detectives but these people have to then delve as deep as they can into it and all the facts right and not kill them so that they can
00:44:44
be brought to justice and have some jailhouse justice and just get killed terribly in jail
00:44:49
but that's the ideal but them getting even arrested is a small you know can't be a huge
00:44:55
percentage of of them so even getting someone arrested has to be hard so imagine retiring
00:45:00
after never having solved this case no that's terrible no and then and it ruins people's lives
00:45:05
to go investigate this stuff and to discover this, like, it's just the seamy underside.
00:45:12
And I only, I surfed it on Wikipedia and was just like, I'm mesmerized by how horrifying it is.
00:45:23
Okay. Wow. Yeah. So that's a heavy one when I'm still completely fascinated by, I think,
00:45:30
I think there's the answer out there. Yes. Like you've discussed, but it's just never
00:45:35
going to be closed. I don't think it'll be closed. Well, the people so clearly, this is a thing about
00:45:40
the rich. I mean, what I think is incredible is there was a period of time with Oakland County
00:45:45
child killer. It was all supposedly like conspiracy theory about who was responsible and all that.
00:45:51
It was all proven that the Fox Island situation was real. It was proven it did not come out
00:45:58
anywhere. And that millionaire that did it got into his airplane and fucking flew away. And then
00:46:05
basically culturally at the time we were like, oh, that didn't happen. That's too crazy to happen.
00:46:11
Now we live in the post Epstein world where we're like, it absolutely happened and it is still
00:46:18
happening. Totally. Absolutely. There's a really good podcast I want to recommend that came out in
00:46:22
2018 called Don't Talk to Strangers. And it's like a whole deep dive into this case. It's great.
00:46:27
Also, just as a it's kind of a correction, but I did not actually say the names of the victims in this episode.
00:46:34
I can explain that simply in the way that there were some decisions being made on the on the fly of like, oh, it'll make it less sad or something.
00:46:44
Or it'll it was it was a true misunderstanding of kind of the purpose of true crime storytelling.
00:46:50
storytelling. And I think it was like, oh, maybe if we just say a boy, a girl, it'll make that
00:46:56
easier somehow, which was just a, I was just thinking wrong about it. I think we thought it
00:47:01
might be less salacious somehow, but really it's just like, you know, not giving the victims the
00:47:06
proper respect that they deserve, which we didn't really realize at the time. Correct. So the victims
00:47:12
in the Oakland County child killer case are Mark Stubbins, Jill Robinson, Christine Mihalik,
00:47:19
And Timothy King, and you could say Timothy King's father, Barry, who spent decades searching for justice for his son and died in 2020 with no answers, was also a victim of these crimes.
00:47:32
Yeah. I was thinking about my use of the term kiddie porn in that story and realizing that was the only word anyone used back then to describe that.
00:47:48
I was like the vernacular. Yeah. And once you see it, once you hear it in the light of day of like that, it should not have been that way.
00:47:57
It's not only how great this evolution is. of talking about these crimes, talking about victims, talking about all of it,
00:48:05
that evolution really is happening. But on top of that, it just kind of made me realize like
00:48:09
the people who termed it that in the first place, the reason we're saying it that way,
00:48:14
the reason no one cited it is because of kind of the culture that we have been living in for so
00:48:20
long that it's just seeming to start to change right now. Which is downplaying, which is ignore.
00:48:24
I mean, it does like make light of this very serious problem that then people don't take seriously.
00:48:31
Or worse, sorry to interrupt you, or worse, it is this kind of like I equate this with porn.
00:48:38
It's just that there's kids in it. That's the problem with that term. Right. Obviously.
00:48:43
And it is, it should have been gone long ago. Yeah. Well, that's why we're doing this rewind is to, you know, right some wrongs to see how far we've come.
00:48:53
Well, and also because all of this, if you listen to any true crime podcast that started, you know, five years ago or further back, all of this is how people speak.
00:49:02
Yeah. This idea of canceling people retroactively takes everything out of context and immediately assumes bad intentions.
00:49:11
And it assumes things that are actually not true. And I think it's like if you grew up only ever hearing one term and then you hear the old disgusting term that was fully in use and no one questioned it, you do want to say you're a bad person for saying that.
00:49:30
And we learned and people said you shouldn't use that word or you should use this phrase instead.
00:49:35
And we did. Oh, they still have this is kind of important. The Michigan State Police confirm this case is still an open case and they have a tip line.
00:49:44
And all new tips are investigated as they come in. And that tip line number is 1-855-MICHTIP.
00:49:53
MISHTIP. So can I be cynical as fuck for a quick moment? Of course. And say that the reason it's still open is so that we don't, the public won't have access
00:50:02
to the files. Because if it a closed case then we could put in a Freedom of Information Act to look at the files True Yeah that a good point I don know Like it could be exposing people
00:50:13
Yeah. However, if it's a cold case, it's still going to be open no matter what. But it is also like there's a lot of information that we don't have, which is what drives me crazy about cold cases is they understandably keep information back from the public.
00:50:28
Yeah. But when it's been decades, maybe that a couple of those pieces of information could help lead to, you know, a suspect.
00:50:36
Right. Right. It's just, I hate it. It's horrible. Yeah. And also there's so many suspects and kind of guilty parties in this story with what is going on.
00:50:47
Yeah. What I think is exciting, though, is it's not just an open case, but they have a tip line.
00:50:53
Absolutely. They have a tip line that they're letting people know about. They're like, please let us know if you know anything.
00:50:57
So that's different than the average cold case. Definitely. Definitely. You want to add anything?
00:51:09
I don't know. Just like try to be nice to people. Yeah. People like get murdered.
00:51:15
Like people you don't really know. And so you see in the grocery store line. That's suck for them.
00:51:20
And also just for yourself, like be excited that you're not murdered yet. And enjoy yourself.
00:51:26
Do what you want. Don't do what like someone's telling you you have to do because there's no have to because you never know what could happen.
00:51:32
You never know. This is really, I mean, when it comes down to it, this is a positive podcast where we're trying to lift people up and make them their best selves.
00:51:41
And sometimes you lift, we lift each other up by pushing down the murdered. Yeah.
00:51:47
It's as if to say it's a celebration of life. Yeah. L'chaim to life. L'chaim to life and death.
00:51:56
All right. So let's move from that to what we would have also done differently, which is name these episodes.
00:52:05
Don't shit on the episode names. We were doing our best with what we had. This is called My Favorite Third-er.
00:52:11
My Favorite Third is pretty good It pretty good It pretty good It pretty good Okay So we both going to give each other alternative option names if we didn do number puns If we had done what we do now which is get a funny quote from the podcast and use that as the title
00:52:26
Right. So we both have a couple. So one is a walking miracle, which I guess I was referencing how any of us who were born like before 1990 are still alive.
00:52:37
That's so true. So mine is magic talk because that's what I talked about, how blood spatter isn't scientific evidence.
00:52:44
It's fucking magic talk. It sounds so much like me. I can't even handle it. Well, it was you.
00:52:49
It was me. 2016 Georgia. She's. Bless her heart. This one is hilarious. Just be nice to people.
00:52:57
The thing I say at the end to you when you're like, do you have anything else to add?
00:53:00
Just be nice to people. Just like, wow, was I having a hard week or what? It's like, and did we?
00:53:05
it's a good thing we went to stay sexy and don't get murdered because I feel like if we had that
00:53:09
had been our catchphrase it would not have caught on. Be nice to people. I mean oh my god it couldn't
00:53:15
it had to happen the way it happened. It did. Thank you guys for listening we're gonna put one of
00:53:19
these out a week turns out so we hope you like them and tell your friends and oh please rate
00:53:23
review and subscribe that really helps us. Yeah join us on a look back and a look forward. The
00:53:28
update part of this is so compelling to me. Yeah really cool. This is fun and it's fun to just like
00:53:34
we had no fucking clue what our lives were about to become. Yeah. No clue. Yeah.
00:53:41
And then Hannah Crichton and Asia Hamilton and Alejandra Keck went and typed up for us what we were doing that got us to this place.
00:53:50
And now we can look back. It's like they typed out a yearbook for us that we can look back on with no pictures.
00:53:56
Sign your buns. also just like i have to say once you do start hearing back from an audience about all the
00:54:04
things you're doing wrong yeah which rightfully so it does make you self-conscious and it changes
00:54:09
the dynamic and it changes the energy and it's like that part of it too is kind of interesting
00:54:14
to me where we were very funny when we thought no one was listening totally how it always is and then i think my self started coming where it was like of course i knew my own intent but it doesn matter because people are sitting there and it like the impact of what you saying
00:54:31
Well, we were very funny to each other, which was the only point of the podcast because we didn't realize there were other people, really didn't realize like that many more people that would listen besides us.
00:54:42
Yeah. And they did. But you did and you do. And we appreciate it. All right. Well, we'll see you next time for episode four next week.
00:54:49
Yay. stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye and be nice to people please goodbye elvis do you want a
00:54:56
cookie here's the truth you could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still
00:55:03
get completely ignored by your own cat it's classic cat behavior but new shiba premium puree
00:55:09
is a lickable treat that changes all that they're protein rich made with bone broth and have the
00:55:14
smooth creamy texture cats go crazy for especially when it's hand fed yeah it's more than a treat it's
00:55:20
a fast pass to favorite human status so feed your cat sheba and go from totally ignored to truly
00:55:26
adored in just 12 days guaranteed or your money back learn more at sheba.com unlock the savings
00:55:34
at boost mobile and save up to 600 a year i've been scouting these big carriers for a minute now
00:55:38
and i've seen them pull the same play a thousand times they promise you the world then hit you with
00:55:43
The price hike right when the game gets tight. But Boost Mobile, their $25 a month unlimited wireless plan is the most consistent player on the floor.
00:55:50
No contracts, no price hikes. Unlock the savings today at BoostMobile.com slash unlock.
00:55:56
Based on average annual single line payment of AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile customers
00:55:58
compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026.
00:56:01
For full offer details, visit BoostMobile.com. Hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast,
00:56:10
Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests
00:56:16
and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears.
00:56:23
Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
00:56:29
your podcasts.