00:00:00
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00:00:33
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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room
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and became sought after by patients. He promised to heal them. Instead, he left a trail of broken bodies.
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Hello! Welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. In this series, we're re-listening to our favorite moments from the old episodes, the beginning of this whole, what is this?
00:02:03
What is this? I don't know. This is like an experience? No, this is like an experiment, kind of?
00:02:08
Both are true. Yeah. And we're going to process the embarrassing moments. We're going to reflect on the people we used to be.
00:02:15
But we'll also give you important case updates about the murders we covered way back in the beginning when we kind of didn't know how to podcast.
00:02:23
So we didn't do research. We kind of made it a conversation. It was before we knew. And so it's interesting to look back.
00:02:32
And, you know, let's all do it together. Yep. So today we're going to rewind to episode five, which first aired on a Tuesday because...
00:02:42
We just dropped it when we could. Right. Why not? Why be consistent? It's like, just put your podcast out when you can get around to it.
00:02:49
Right. So this is Tuesday, February 16th, 2016. I was 35 years old. I was 22. We were little babies.
00:02:59
We were little babies, innocent children. Innocent children. We didn't know how and why and when and what.
00:03:06
But we're going to figure that out on this episode today. That's right. So gather up your dog walker, your stepmom.
00:03:14
Oh, yeah. Get your stepmom into this. and your favorite high school science teacher.
00:03:20
And let's all join together and become day one listeners. So here's the beginning of episode five
00:03:26
and us chatting about our fears, listener feedback, and so much more. Enjoy. Enjoy.
00:03:36
Let's talk about murder. Let's get it done. Let's get into murder. Let's get our murder chores taken care of.
00:03:42
let's uh let's vacuum the murder and take out the murder let's vacuum up the hair follicles
00:03:49
and the carpet fibers that will not be admissible in court right and then just throw them out yeah
00:03:54
because they're just garbage and then we'll overturn the conviction we'll overturn history
00:03:58
hi this is my favorite murder that's karen and that's georgia and we're here to talk about crime
00:04:04
and punishment and all the things that we like that a lot of people really don't i feel like so
00:04:09
many people are emailing us and being like, thank you. That they do. Yeah. I'm always too embarrassed
00:04:14
to talk about it with anyone. Do you think even like, even grammar school teachers and even
00:04:20
cheerleaders have these feelings? Yeah. I think most women like to talk about murder. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:28
And some dudes. Some dudes do. Okay. Here's the thing I read recently. Did you know there's,
00:04:33
They have like an age range that you'll most likely, like this is when your chances of getting murdered are this age.
00:04:43
Like they have an exact age. And this is from Paranoia Magazine? No, this is from fucking Psychology Today.
00:04:49
Okay, similar. But it was a relief because we're both older than this age. Okay, good.
00:04:54
So the average age of homicide victims, this last time I guess was 2008, was 32.7 years old.
00:05:03
And then the average age of murderers in 2008 was 28.8. Whoa. Isn't that interesting?
00:05:13
Yeah. That's very young, it seems to me. To get murdered or to murder? To be a murderer.
00:05:20
That seems young. I know. I would have guessed old, younger, personally. You would have guessed younger for the murder?
00:05:26
Yeah, because you have less control over your impulses and that sort of thing. But by 28, you're like, I'm going to be a murderer.
00:05:34
Definitely or no. You know what it is, too? I think when I think of stuff like this, I'm thinking of the specific kind of murders that I'm interested in.
00:05:42
Where obviously this is gang, mafia, impulse, all that stuff. Spousal abuse. The crimes of passion.
00:05:54
Crimes of portion Crimes of portion What about you know what I really afraid of Getting shot out on the freeway Ooh yeah What about someone throwing a brick over and off an overpass onto your windshield
00:06:05
Don't do that. No, don't do that. Has that happened to people? Mm-hmm. There was like, sometimes there's like,
00:06:12
I was going to say spates of that, but I'm not sure if that's the right word. That's terrifying.
00:06:16
Little, that starts happening in certain parts of, that's a very Los Angeles thing.
00:06:22
No. Sure. I know. I gotta go. Okay, bye. I gotta go. I gotta go. And to be murdered, 32.
00:06:34
That sounds right, because you're out of your 20s. You kind of like, you relax into adulthood.
00:06:39
You think you got it together. You no longer carry your keys between your fingers at night.
00:06:44
You're kind of like, look, I lived in the city long enough. You let your shoulders down a little bit.
00:06:49
You relax. Yeah. The fun kind of murders that we like, that's like your fucking college co-ed.
00:06:54
Yeah. not fun and I don't like them just to clear this up whatever we have we simply must demand
00:07:02
understanding from our audience at some point we're gonna have to stop explaining that a we
00:07:06
don't want to be murdered by anyone we did you know why is because I did made the fatal mistake
00:07:11
of not only reading some of our iTunes reviews that were bad which were there were very few
00:07:16
so I went straight to them and then telling you about them and like the funniest one was one where
00:07:21
was like, these women have no respect. They're laughing about child death or whatever.
00:07:25
And so I keep feeling like I have to clarify or be apologetic. Call her and be like, let me tell you about this.
00:07:32
I pictured it to be an old man with horn-rimmed glasses and kind of half balding.
00:07:37
Kind of like an old Bob Odenkirk is the way I was picturing it. Just like a crooked finger shaking at the screen always.
00:07:43
You women. His grandson comes and boots it up for him every day. Totally. Yeah, we just said we can't worry.
00:07:51
We have to be talking to the people that understand us. Yeah. They get us. They do.
00:07:55
And they like it. Like you're saying, they're excited. I was going to ask you a question and then I forgot it.
00:08:01
I'm just going to keep telling each other that. That people like murder? They like it.
00:08:06
Yeah. Why would they be listening to a podcast called My Favorite Murder? Yeah. People are much smarter than the media would have you believe.
00:08:13
That's true. Do you want to go first? Do you want to talk about your favorite murder?
00:08:16
Yeah. Maybe after this one, we're going to start having categories each time. Sure.
00:08:24
Like call a theme. Yeah. Theme. Totally. So we're not right now. So I was just like in the wind, twisting in the wind to grab one.
00:08:33
I don't know why it's been harder. Yeah. So why don't you go first? That's my point.
00:08:38
Oh, okay. No, wait. Why don't I go first? And then yours is probably really well researched.
00:08:43
Why? Because I have a legal pad? I just carry that around with me like a nerd. There's just nothing written, like the same word written over and over and over again on this.
00:08:50
It just says murder Georgia over and over on it. But this whole time it was you that murdered me.
00:08:55
Oh my God. Yeah, that's the great irony of life. It's always what's right in front of you.
00:08:59
Nice to meet you. Hi. My murderer. Meet my murderer. God, listening to us talk about bad iTunes reviews from you.
00:09:14
You were the one reading them. Yeah. And I mean, I think that stopped probably three episodes later.
00:09:20
Just that idea where it's like watching us watching ourselves be received. Yeah.
00:09:31
It's not a good idea. If you have a podcast and that's something that you do, I don't recommend it.
00:09:35
Don't recommend it. You know what it is? It's the feeling of, oh my God, the person I'm talking about is standing behind me, aren't they?
00:09:42
Yes. When we realized that people were listening to the podcast, slowly it was like this slow-mo turnaround of, oh, I didn't know you were here.
00:09:53
And they heard everything. We truly were gossiping to each other in the beginning.
00:09:58
And I think the mentality, like that complaint where there are people saying, you know, you covered child murders and people saying they didn't like the way we covered it.
00:10:08
And that was the first realization of like, oh, we have to be doing this in a structured, conscious, intentional way.
00:10:17
Yeah, there has to be a standard. And if anyone's going to set it, I feel like we knew we could.
00:10:23
We could follow along of all people. We could literally do better. Yeah, we could do clap, clap, do better.
00:10:30
So I think we have. And I think another thing, too, about this is that we've slowly learned throughout the years that it's not just women listening.
00:10:40
It's a lot of men, which is awesome. And we do also love that when people sign their hometowns, they give their pronouns as well.
00:10:49
So it's such a bigger community than just women. And, you know, that's incredible.
00:10:54
Yeah, it's nice. We've gotten some, oh, this is the episode where it has one of the most epic hometowns we've ever received.
00:11:02
Yeah. So stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, we're going to hear my story about a classic murder that's just troubled all of us.
00:11:11
Some could say it's a cold case. Some could say it's totally been solved and there's no justice.
00:11:15
True. So this is the murder of Martha Moxley from 1975. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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Default terms at mintmobile Hey everyone It Cal Penn host of Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club This week on the podcast I sitting down with Divergent author Veronica Roth to talk about her sprawling new novel Seek the Traitor Son
00:12:09
It's a sci-fi fantasy epic about two protagonists on opposite sides of a war and a prophecy neither of them wanted.
00:12:16
My first book was Divergent. And when that came out, like, because it was so popular, I think it attracted, like, mostly positivity.
00:12:24
but the negativity I sucked in like a sponge. And I think it was like critiques of things I liked
00:12:31
when I was like, you know, I was 23 and I wrote this book and it had all my like dorky little cheesy
00:12:36
or maybe unrealistic loves in it. And I started to feel a lot of shame about those things.
00:12:43
And so for the rest of my career, I steered away from those little things that like make you feel pleasure when you read.
00:12:51
But I also was like saying no to these parts of myself that I then was like, screw it.
00:12:58
So that's this book. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:13:44
All right. Well, mine is my favorite murder this week is one that I'm sure you know about.
00:13:51
And it's a classic. And I feel like I just need to get out of the way because whenever, and there's been recent news updates about it.
00:13:59
And whenever I see it, whenever I watch a documentary about it, I'm fucking in it.
00:14:03
Yeah. It's the murder of Martha Moxley. Oh, Georgia. You know. I got to tell you.
00:14:11
Yeah. Just the name Martha Moxley. Moxley. The word Moxley. It's the best name. And it's the worst story.
00:14:19
That's just like, and she's just a fucking kid. Yeah. Yeah. So those who don't know, don't know anything, apparently.
00:14:31
Martha Moxley, in 1975, she was a 15-year-old girl living in Greenwich, Connecticut, which is a fucking Tony town.
00:14:39
Loved the word Tony. Don't they have like their own gates and stuff? It's like truly like crazy rich.
00:14:45
Yeah. And it's like you live on acres. Yeah. So Martha Moxley's body was found beaten in her yard the night after Halloween.
00:14:56
She was beaten. They found half of a golf club there, which is what had been used to beat her.
00:15:03
She's like a cute, pretty... It doesn't matter. She could be ugly. It's still terrible.
00:15:07
She looks like a girl that's in a black and white picture in an 80s yearbook. Totally.
00:15:11
She's like that perfect girl. Like the popular, but she's also on student body. Like she's popular and smart.
00:15:17
she's not mean you know yeah freckles totally genuine smile like she'd probably end up being
00:15:22
like a like a lawyer for like the ocean you know yeah those guys yeah like a lawyer defending like
00:15:31
actually getting something good done osha is that a thing osha yes is but osha is is the work the
00:15:38
work environment making make sure making sure it's safe for people to work there she'd be an
00:15:43
she'd be a lawyer for them okay uh i like the ocean too it's kind of nice she just has dolphins
00:15:49
all around her anyhow she totally has dolphins uh so the person who ended up ultimately getting
00:15:56
arrested and put in jail for this murder but not until 2002 was her neighbor who lived across the
00:16:02
street who was her age named michael skakel who this is so unimportant and such a stupid fact of
00:16:09
the whole thing, but probably the reason why it's a famous murder is that Michael Skakel's family was related to Senator Robert Kennedy's wife, Ethel Kennedy.
00:16:23
Ethel Skakel Kennedy, who RFK has been in on this podcast. That's my favorite murder in the past.
00:16:30
Anyways, so what's recently happened is that Michael Skakel has been released from jail.
00:16:36
Oh, I didn't know that. They filed for a new trial because he was not adequately represented by his defense attorney.
00:16:46
Doubt it. The habeas petition was granted. The judgment of conviction is set aside and the matter is referred back.
00:16:52
So for retrial, meaning as far as I know, so he got out. And as far as I know, it doesn't look like they're pursuing the case anymore.
00:17:01
Because I guess, you know, they had very little. it was all circumstantial evidence. Not even that wasn't very strong. So it was surprising
00:17:11
that he got convicted. However, he admitted that that night, somewhere between 10 and 2
00:17:17
in the morning or something like that, he was in a tree masturbating while looking in Martha
00:17:24
Moxley's window. Yes, that was the justification of why his semen would be on her body.
00:17:31
Was it on her body? Yeah. Okay, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
00:17:35
Right. I mean, clearly he had pretty good lawyers the first time around if they're coming up with shit like that.
00:17:40
It's just... I know this is insane bias because I've seen this, like, so many versions of this story.
00:17:46
But it's... But I've decided. I've decided. But I mean, it's because of things like that.
00:17:51
Well the problem with it is that there other strong suspects you know Like the The brother The brother who was making out with her that evening which is why maybe Michael got jealous and killed her
00:18:05
Or did she catch him drinking off? Like, how did she come out there, do you suppose?
00:18:10
I think she was out because it was mischief night, right? Was it the night before Halloween or Halloween?
00:18:16
It was. Yeah. Sorry. No, you're so the night before Halloween. Yeah. Mischief night, which I didn't know is a thing.
00:18:23
I know it's not a thing out here. I think it might be exclusively for rich white people in Greenwich.
00:18:29
It's also in Detroit, which is terrifying. Oh, is it? Yeah. Slightly different tone of that mischief night.
00:18:35
Every night is mischief night in Detroit. Yeah. Yeah, I've never heard of mischief night until I heard this story.
00:18:42
Yeah, me too. So, yeah. So, like, the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer.
00:18:50
Yeah. And him jerking off in a tree and not being the killer is not the obvious answer.
00:18:57
That's right. Well, and also just then why weren't there other people? It just didn't seem like there was other people brought forward because this is one of not just a safe town or whatever.
00:19:09
It's like an exclusive shut off city. Yeah. But here's the thing is there, the Skakels had a tutor named John, let's see where is it?
00:19:23
John something foreign? Ken Littleton. Oh, okay. So he was the tutor and they were like, this guy's sketchy. And so he was a suspect for a long time too.
00:19:35
Why was he sketchy? Do you remember? Because maybe he had a hard on for Martha Moxley.
00:19:40
Oh, okay. But he says he never even met her. Okay, but then so recently, Kobe Bryant,
00:19:46
here's another like relative, Kobe Bryant's cousin, his name is Tony Bryant. Okay.
00:19:52
Like why there needs to be, you know, connections to family members that are famous,
00:19:58
I don't know. Says that he knows who killed Martha Moxley. He's from this town. Oh.
00:20:04
And he came out recently and said, I know who actually did it and it wasn't... Michael's Giggle.
00:20:09
No. He says it was Two of his friends who lived in the Bronx, I believe. Yeah. Two friends visiting him from the Bronx.
00:20:22
They went to Moxley's neighborhood the night of the murder. And this guy, Bryant, was with them.
00:20:26
The two friends reportedly picked up Skakel's golf clubs from Skakel's yard, which is what she was murdered with, on a whim and told Bryant they wanted to attack a girl, quote, caveman style using the clubs.
00:20:37
Bryant says he left the neighborhood and learned about the murder later. and the friends told him they committed a crime,
00:20:42
but he never said anything. So now he's saying he's coming forward with the story.
00:20:48
If the story is true, I call bullshit on him leaving. He was there. People are going to tell you to your face,
00:20:56
they're going to kill a girl. And you're like, well, I've got to go. So what kind of person?
00:21:04
I mean, look, whatever. There's all details. You could run a million scenarios. I just don't think a teenager would be like, would leave.
00:21:12
Even if he was like, I don't want to murder anyone. I just want to see what happens.
00:21:16
Or I don't believe these guys, you know. Well, the other thing I remember hearing is that the Skakel's golf clubs,
00:21:23
the set of clubs were in their attic. That the cops found them later with that one club missing.
00:21:30
So the idea that they were picking golf clubs out of the front yard seems a bit bullshitty.
00:21:35
Or did someone stash the golf clubs up there after they realized the murder weapon was a golf club?
00:21:43
That could be connected to them. Yeah. Did Michael Skakel do it? Put the golf clubs up there?
00:21:48
Did the dad and the mom? Weren't the dad and their mom gone? They were gone. Like, the dad and mom almost didn't live there.
00:21:56
They were like teen boys that lived on their own. Rich, white teen boys running amok that lived on their own.
00:22:03
That sounds terrible. Now, am I wrong to assume that Kobe Bryant's cousin is black and that the kids coming in from whatever, did you say Brooklyn or the Bronx?
00:22:13
The Bronx. Coming in from the Bronx were black? That's an assumption we can make.
00:22:18
I would think that the Greenwich, Connecticut cops would see three black kids walking around on mischief night and at least ask a question.
00:22:27
Totally. If not harass the fuck out of them. And then how did Michael Skagel seem to have to go back and get on this poor girl?
00:22:37
This poor girl and her poor family. Every interview, like her family is like die hard.
00:22:42
Like we never did anything else with our lives, but try to get justice. Yeah. It's fucking heartbreaking for this poor family.
00:22:49
I remember seeing this story way early in a, it wasn't Forensic Files, but it was like one of those ones and they interviewed the mom.
00:22:57
Oh, she's. She seemed like a thousand miles away. I remember watching it and just going,
00:23:02
oh, I never want to see any murder victim's mom speak again because that's the most painful thing.
00:23:07
You know what hurts me? The brothers. Brothers of the murder victims always bum me out
00:23:13
because they're like, I should have been there to help my little sister. Yeah. Terrible.
00:23:20
Well, also, I don't like the idea that, so he has served, is it 30 years in prison or 20?
00:23:26
No, he didn't get arrested. until 2002. Oh, so this is crazy, like white people justice, where it's a rich guy who basically
00:23:34
kind of did a symbolic time. And now they're faking out some black people to say, hey,
00:23:41
maybe we did it. And then his thing goes away. Probably. Michael Skickle didn't get arrested
00:23:47
until, and unconvicted for 27 years. He was free. So this whole thing happened, I think it was 2002.
00:23:55
So I remember having watched the whole story of the murder and then like... That happened.
00:24:00
It was insane. I never thought he would get, anyone would get arrested for it. And now he's fucking out again.
00:24:06
So he spent a couple of years. I just think that the logic of. Oh, wait. So 2000, he was arrested.
00:24:14
And then, yeah, now he's out. Yeah, the logic of. Oh, just the logic of a very rich teen boy who gets spurned and maybe even shamed like his older brother who ruins his life in every other way.
00:24:30
gets the girl that he likes him having this huge crazy emotional reaction in the moment that he
00:24:36
maybe hugely regrets even but that uh maybe even a girl that he was obsessed with that sparking
00:24:43
murderous ramp a murderous rampage makes way more sense than just a teen going i'm gonna kill a girl
00:24:51
tonight caveman style like you have to be a very specific type of person to be able to do that
00:24:57
in the first place. It's not like going, I'm going to sniff glue. And then there were two other kids at Michael Skakel's boarding school later who said,
00:25:06
yeah, he admitted to it. So these kids from the Bronx would have probably gone back and
00:25:11
bragged about it. And there would have been more people saying that they did it and not
00:25:15
Kobe Bryant's cousin. Yeah. But I just hate that idea that, I mean, most Black people have a hard time driving around Los Angeles, California.
00:25:23
Yeah. You're going to roll up into Greenwich, Connecticut and just be like, let's see what we can do murder wise.
00:25:30
Yeah, let's wander around with clubs. I don't think so. Also, if you live in the Bronx, where you're getting the gas money, where are you getting any of the money to get there?
00:25:33
No. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Like, I don't know. It doesn't, it just doesn't add up as quickly to me.
00:25:45
It's just a, it's, but what's, yeah. I don't know. But who knows? And I just don't understand why this guy who has a family, Kobe Bryant's cousin, would want to do that.
00:25:54
But there's fucking narcissistic people who want attention all the time. Or maybe he really believes it.
00:25:59
Maybe he believes it. Maybe he doesn't. He's remembering incorrectly. He really believes that's what happened.
00:26:06
Here's what I will say. I love the idea that we still get to talk about the Martha Moxley murder.
00:26:11
That there's something still happening with it. That's fascinating to me. So no one's in prison for her murder still.
00:26:17
I want Michael Skagel not to have done it Like I want there to be a different answer
00:26:23
But I don't think there is I think that the thing it comes down to with me With a lot of these stories
00:26:27
Is my irritation over the fact That people accept Kind of like If you're a white guy wearing a button down Oxford shirt
00:26:37
You can kind of do whatever the fuck you want And people will be like Oh no that nice boy down the street
00:26:42
Like you get to hide in plain sight With this camouflage and meanwhile be whatever.
00:26:48
And people will not believe it. They'll immediately believe three black kids driving up from the Bronx to kill this one girl.
00:27:00
Okay. Great job. Thank you. I hope I said it in the episode, but I'm not sure. This case, as Georgia was saying, is a really old,
00:27:11
it's next year marks the 50th anniversary of this case. And it's technically still unsolved.
00:27:18
It's still a cold case. I mean, what a miscarriage of justice for this poor girl who had the rest of her life in front of her.
00:27:27
I mean, you know, it's just, it's a hard one. Yeah. For sure. And as I said in the episode, Michael Skakel was charged with the murder of Martha Moxley in 2000, found guilty in 2002, spent more than a decade in prison.
00:27:42
In 2013, he got a new trial. and a bunch of shits happened in between them. But I will just say that in 2020,
00:27:51
prosecutors announced that they would not seek a second trial for Skakel on the murder charge.
00:27:55
And in late 2023, he actually filed a civil rights lawsuit against the town of Greenwich,
00:28:01
as well as the lead detective seeking damages for what he claims was his wrongful conviction.
00:28:06
So let's follow along with that. That case is still in court. We'll give you any updates as we get them.
00:28:10
And so because ultimately Michael Skakel's conviction was vacated, Martha Moxley's murder technically remains unsolved to this day.
00:28:18
Yeah. I mean, if it is a wrongful conviction, that's horrible. And that is everyone's fear. But just pure personal opinion, rich people are able to make these arguments to get the best lawyers who figure out the loopholes or to figure out the technicalities to get people out of prison all the time.
00:28:43
But there's plenty of people who should be getting out of prison because their trial was a joke or whatever, and they don't have the money.
00:28:52
So they just sit there. Yeah. It's fucked up. It's a fucked up system. Yeah, it is.
00:28:57
Okay, so now it's time for Karen's story. Speaking of fucked up, this is one of the darkest.
00:29:03
So awful. And early on, we're just going in hot with the darks. This is Karen's story of the L.A. freeway killers of the 1970s.
00:29:13
Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.
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Default terms at MintMobile.com. Hey, everyone. It's Cal Penn. I the host of Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Ray Porter the narrator of Andy Weir audiobook Project Hail Mary massive sci adventure about survival and science and
00:30:09
what happens when you wake up alone very far from earth. I really had to make a decision because I
00:30:15
caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of
00:30:19
these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it.
00:30:23
I was like, no, at this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it.
00:30:33
But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic.
00:30:39
That's great. Because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end.
00:30:44
It's like, yeah, dude, me too. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30:53
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told,
00:31:02
oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age?
00:31:10
That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.
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Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.
00:31:29
It's your murder. I'm like a Moxley. Well, so I picked mine because we were talking about hitchhiking and laughing about how insanely dangerous and crazy hitchhiking is.
00:31:46
And so I went to look up why we think that and know that and what the actual stories and murders are behind that.
00:31:54
And it turns out that I looked up freeway killer because I remember hearing there was like the story of the one guy with the van on the freeway.
00:32:02
It turns out there were three. Wow. And between like the mid 70s and 1980, there were three serial killers that dumped bodies on freeways in Los Angeles and Southern California working all at the same time.
00:32:20
In this area? In this area. And on top of that, in the same time frame were the hillside stranglers.
00:32:27
Yeah. And so they weren't even counted in this because they'd dump bodies. Yeah, but they'd dump bodies in the hills.
00:32:33
so they would take women off the streets and then they would they were dumping in the hills
00:32:39
that's what they called them hillside they thought it was one guy doing it as if they were walking up there
00:32:43
and then realized they were bringing bodies to there I just think it's crazy that when two people
00:32:48
join forces and are both in agreement that they want to do the same how do you find someone like that
00:32:53
that's exactly right and here's why I love this story because the guy I focused on is William Bonin
00:32:59
he had four accomplices over his, I believe it was just a year or it was like a year and a half where he was doing the most,
00:33:09
most of these killers, killings, sorry. And he had four different people who helped him.
00:33:14
That's insane. It's crazy. Something was going on in the late seventies because that's also when Bundy,
00:33:21
when John Wayne Gacy, like it was all around 1978. There was this weird explosion of like,
00:33:29
maybe it was just that people learned about what it was and the story started coming out.
00:33:33
Domer was later, right? Domer was later, yeah. Yeah. I mean, or because the term serial killer wasn't even coined until, but I didn't mean
00:33:42
that they weren't doing that. Right. I just don't think people understood. And also, how do you introduce that concept to like, without introducing huge mass panic?
00:33:54
So one of the guys, I'll just tell you the other ones first. One was the scorecard killer.
00:33:59
And this was a guy named Randy Kraft. So from 1972 to 1983, he killed for sure 16 boys, but they think 51.
00:34:10
51? 51. And there was also, and he, they call him scorecard killer because he kept this really long list where he had code words for the people that he killed.
00:34:24
So they were able to track. that's why they know it's at least 51 because there would just be a word that would
00:34:29
say like tank top or whatever that would somehow relate to the victim oh my god yeah it's crazy
00:34:35
and he was like the he looked like anyone in the store when you see pictures he looks like a high school teacher
00:34:43
holy shit he looks like he would have been on a episode of Mary Tyler Moore he has like kind of a pointy
00:34:49
nose and like he has kind of a jolly looking face he's a guy in the 70s. He's just, you know, a guy in the 70s
00:34:55
just like, hey, come on, do you need a ride? And he would pick up little kids? He would pick up men of any kind.
00:35:01
Okay. And then he would brutally rape them and then dump their bodies. There was also
00:35:07
Patrick Wayne Kearney who worked from 75 to 77 who killed definitely 28. Holy shit, that's two years he killed 28 people?
00:35:17
28, and they think 43. They just can only pin 28 on him. Yeah, like there's no way
00:35:21
he didn't start earlier and they just don't know yet. Right, exactly. And especially because at this time, imagine three of these people doing this at once. And this guy would pick up hitchhikers, shoot them in the head, then do stuff to their bodies, and then wrap them in trash bags.
00:35:39
And keep their heads? Is that him? No. Not that I know of. Okay, never mind. No, I don't think so.
00:35:44
I think that's, anyways, yeah. This is one of these people? No. Well, anyway. Can you imagine like living right now and like like how you know Summer of Sam how like yeah there a person killing people out there right now Like I just wouldn leave the house anymore I know And three Three at a time There three of them that at any given time could be driving down any fucking street
00:36:09
But the key in this, in all three of these, and the reason that they didn't go, that they went on solve for so long is because they were gay.
00:36:18
it was gay boys and it was it was uh that situation of boy hitchhikers usually young
00:36:26
and for william bonnan his youngest was 12 a little boy who was trying to get to disneyland
00:36:32
and but william bonnan is like the worst the worst of the worst um we can just go through his
00:36:41
super quick because it's just a humongous bummer okay he's kind of got shades of charles manson in
00:36:46
that way where it was never okay for him from day one yeah so he he was born to two alcoholic parents
00:36:54
and um the mom left him and his two brothers with her father who molested her and who molested the
00:37:02
boys then he he ran away when he was nine and he got arrested for stealing um license plates
00:37:11
and he got sent to a boy's, you know, like juvie basically for boys where he was again raped and molested.
00:37:20
We can talk about this person and at least draw a strain of like with that why question that I always have
00:37:27
with this like, you cannot torture human beings like this. How do you create a serial killer?
00:37:31
Yeah. Just follow this guy's life. Yeah, basically. And you know, neglect. They were like,
00:37:37
the neighborhood people said that they look like they were starving all the time.
00:37:40
they were like you know they were completely neglected children who then of course became
00:37:45
criminals because what else were they going to do well it's the thing of like where do you go
00:37:48
at what point do you switch from feeling sorry for this child to thinking that this man should
00:37:55
be dead you know like right there's there's like a moment i guess it's when he kills the first
00:38:01
person he ever killed yeah because there's a lot of people that get molested and fucked with as
00:38:06
children who never do anything bad to other people totally so it's there's definitely that
00:38:10
element of responsibility but it it's just like you you just see that thing where like that mother
00:38:17
couldn't be responsible enough to go i'm gonna get you out of this cycle of abuse and not let
00:38:21
what happened to me happen to you no but how horrible that is yeah so anyway he of course then
00:38:27
when he gets out of like that juvie he starts molesting kids in the neighborhood i mean this
00:38:33
just like now with the thing that he does. He gets arrested for it once. Then he gets sent to,
00:38:40
I think he goes to Vietnam, has a full tour in the air. He joins the Air Force. He came back.
00:38:47
He was in Vietnam from 69 to 71, came back and immediately started kidnapping and raping boys.
00:38:54
He did it to five boys. Can you imagine the fucking fondling he did in Vietnam? Yeah.
00:38:59
Like that was like a free for all for him, I bet. I'm sure. Yeah. He could do anything he wanted.
00:39:04
So he comes back. He gets caught for kidnapping and raping five different boys. They send him to a mental hospital.
00:39:10
Oh, great. So he goes from being in a mental hospital. In the mental hospital, they say he can't be rehabilitated.
00:39:20
So they send him to real jail. But then he's released in 1974 because there they decide he's no longer a danger to others.
00:39:30
You've got to be kidding me. And so 16 months later, he's charged with the gunpoint rape of a 14-year-old hitchhiker and the attempted abduction of another teen.
00:39:40
So he's sentenced from one to 15 years in jail. From one to 15 years? One to 15 years.
00:39:47
How cute is that? Yeah. Just, you know what, go think about what you did for a little while.
00:39:52
A year. That you've been doing your entire life. The fucking penal system. of all these stories of horrific things i'm usually the most disturbed and disgusted by
00:40:01
how little time people get for heinous yeah the crimes well as when when are rape and child
00:40:10
molestment going to start be being really seen as like these are people who should not be in
00:40:16
should not be getting out in six months i don't know but when that happens they're going to stop
00:40:19
putting a fucking statute of limitations on prosecuting people for rape yeah there's a
00:40:25
statute of limitations. Sure. For rape and kidnapping. Yeah. How fucking how fucked up is that? Yeah, it's insane.
00:40:31
So the cops can't find the dude who raped and kidnapped you for 15 years. He got away.
00:40:37
He's free now. Sure. Do what you want. It's insane. Boys will be boys. Yeah. So in 1978
00:40:43
he's released from jail and he moved to Downey and Oh my God, I was just in Downey.
00:40:50
And I read, I had breakfast and I read the criminal section of their newspaper. anything exciting happening there was a home invasion robbery here oh okay great it's not too
00:41:00
bad um they later found out that he murdered a 13 year old hitchhiker but he uh was ultimately
00:41:08
arrested for molesting a boy in dana point um should have gone back to prison um because he
00:41:14
was on parole at the time but due to a clerical error clerical clerical error he was released
00:41:20
Someone spelled his last name wrong. Exactly. He walked right out of the jail and he got picked up by his main accomplice for all of these murders.
00:41:28
A man named, what is it? Something Butts. Something, something Butts. It's a classic name.
00:41:35
Oh, my God. So anyway, and that's when he tells Butts, now there's not going to be any more witnesses.
00:41:43
That's what you're creating when you keep letting these people, when you keep arresting them for one to 15 years,
00:41:48
is that they learn the lesson not to let anyone identify them. Right. So you should kill them.
00:41:53
Yeah. So then he makes this what they ended up calling like the death machine or something And it this green Ford Econoline van that he got chains
00:42:07
He's got like handcuffs. He's got all this stuff. And they would pick up hitchhikers.
00:42:13
The butts guy would be in the back. And then they basically, he'd like pull over and like attack and rape.
00:42:21
And he was a big strangler. For most of his victims, he strangled them with a t-shirt.
00:42:27
That's how he killed most of them. And Vernon Butts, that was his first name. Vernon Butts.
00:42:36
Vernon. And they also were lovers. And they played Dungeons and Dragons in the sewer system of Los Angeles.
00:42:45
The fuck? That was just a small detail that I wrote on the side of here that I remembered.
00:42:49
And I just am fascinated. that's a lot to comprehend we could kind of go into that for quite some time
00:42:56
but I find that fascinating this isn't a gaming podcast otherwise we would get deep into Vernon Butts
00:43:02
so into it oh so basically it was basically a year long tear where they went and picked up
00:43:10
what they think is I think he got prosecuted what did I say he got prosecuted for 16
00:43:18
no he got prosecuted for 14 but they think he did 44 murders that is the most staggering number and people were getting fucking kidnapped left and
00:43:29
right just boys disappearing everywhere and apparently there was a reporter at the
00:43:34
um orange county register which is as you know orange county is very republican very white
00:43:41
republican kind of christian area in southern california and he found an envelope the southern
00:43:47
County Register with all the paper clippings of all these different individual stories of hitchhikers
00:43:52
or bodies that were found murdered. And on the front of the envelope, it said dead gay boys.
00:43:57
So he was like, why isn't anybody looking at this as like, like some trend at the very least?
00:44:05
But that was basically, he, he kind of wrote, I think he wrote a book. He wrote something about
00:44:09
that I was reading part of that was basically all about how the attitude was like, well,
00:44:14
too bad for them because they signed up for that lifestyle. It's the same as prostitutes.
00:44:18
It's like, well, they live a, what was it? A high risk lifestyle. They chose to live a high risk lifestyle, which is so, oh, okay. You're right.
00:44:26
So then any serial killer should get to do whatever you want. That's bananas. It's super crazy. I mean, just the thought
00:44:34
of knowing that there are those people out there. I mean, there are now, but like in your
00:44:38
working actively in your hood. In your head. Well, and also down here, I mean, there was so much murder down here.
00:44:49
And also 78 was the same year as Jonestown. Like there was something, there was something in the air.
00:44:58
Great job. Oh, thank you. So much, so much to unpack there. Yeah. So, well, and it also reflects the way we used to tell these stories, which is kind of partially researched.
00:45:12
There's a lot of information I didn't give in this that we do have now to give. So I didn't talk about what happened to William Bonin in this episode.
00:45:21
So in late May of 1980, William Pugh, who was an accomplice, was arrested for stealing a car.
00:45:30
He wound up telling detectives that Bonin was the freeway killer. So police surveilled Bonin in June of 1980.
00:45:38
they actually caught him raping a 15-year-old boy in a parking lot. That's just unbelievable.
00:45:47
Caught him in the act. So he was arrested, and he had four accomplices. And those accomplices all agreed to testify against him so that they could escape the death penalty.
00:45:58
But one of them, before he was able to appear in court, died by suicide. Ultimately, Bonham was convicted of 14 murders.
00:46:06
he admitted to killing 21 people. Oh my God, what a monster. And they believe the victim count is actually much higher.
00:46:14
But he was tried in both Los Angeles County and Orange County. He was sentenced to death in 1982 for the 10 murders in Los Angeles.
00:46:24
A year later, he was given a second death penalty sentence for four of the murders that took place in Orange County.
00:46:30
he was on death row for 14 years and he died by lethal injection at San Quentin in 1996
00:46:39
and he was actually the first prisoner in California to die by lethal injection wow I know so this was back when in my mind I thought that if we didn't name the victims
00:46:52
that was more respectful I remember yes I agreed at the time yeah so we have learned well how
00:46:59
So that's just incorrect. And so no victims were named when I did it last time. So I would like to name the 14 men and boys who were murdered.
00:47:11
Dennis Frank Fox, who was 17. Glenn Barker, who was 14. Russell Rue, who was 15.
00:47:18
Lawrence Sharp, 17. Marcus Grabs, who was 17. Donald Hyden, who was 15. David Merlo, who was 17.
00:47:26
Charles Miranda, who's 15. James McCabe who was 12 years old Ronald Gatlin who was 19
00:47:33
Harry Todd Turner who was 14 Stephen Wood who was 16 Darren Lee Kendrick who was 19
00:47:40
and Stephen J. Wells who was 18 years old so just I feel like that was probably the beginning of our reality check
00:47:48
of like what we're doing is much much bigger than the idea we had when we started the podcast
00:47:55
Yes, which is you and I are going to talk about an interest. Right. And it turns out.
00:48:00
Our interest isn't murderers. It's these stories of these people whose lives are forever changed because of these monsters.
00:48:09
So to focus on them more is how we wanted to move forward. Right. Yes. And that the interest of what the serial killers do, which I think in the whole early part of the catalog,
00:48:23
is like the concept of we love serial killers where it's like we are interested in the psychology
00:48:29
that gets a person to the point where they're driving around on the LA freeways,
00:48:34
picking up teenagers and murdering them. Yeah. How does a person become that monster?
00:48:40
Yeah. And how could we recognize it if it was anywhere around us? Right. Right. And like, yeah, let's also not pretend it doesn't happen because
00:48:48
we are not that kind of people. We have the anxiety to prove it. Right. Exactly.
00:48:53
And then a perfect hometown email to end it. One of the greats. Let's hear it. Oh, wait, no.
00:49:03
Now we get to read some of your hometown murders. We've asked you guys to send us hometown murders because we love it and you've done it and we appreciate it.
00:49:12
We have a Facebook group, My Favorite Murder, and we have a Gmail account, My Favorite Murder.
00:49:17
So you can send us your hometown murders. This is by Mark Shrum. Hi, Mark. Hi, Mark.
00:49:24
He's very nice. He said, I hope I have the right email. If not, I'm sorry for the frightening subject line.
00:49:33
Because if it went to the wrong person, it just is my favorite murder. You open up your email and you're like, there's just someone describing a murder to you.
00:49:40
How you would be shitting a brick. That's hilarious. Mark, he says, when I was a freshman in high school, there was a high profile kidnapping case here in West Des Moines, Iowa.
00:49:51
Maybe you heard of it. It was the Johnny Gorsh case. Yes. It's pretty well known nationwide and drug on for years and isn't 100% solved to this day.
00:50:01
This happened in 1982. He was a paper boy and was kidnapped while doing his paper route one morning.
00:50:06
Didn't they just find his bike and that's it? Yeah, I think so. There was another boy, Eugene Martin, that was taken in 1984.
00:50:12
Same story. He was a paper boy. My story comes in in 1983 when I was a paper boy.
00:50:18
Mark, your mom should not have let you be a paper boy. Mark. my brother and I were delivering papers one morning
00:50:24
and it was still dark we were on a street that the houses were pretty far apart and set back from the road so we weren't right on the street
00:50:30
I looked up the street and saw a blue panel van coming down the street extremely slow with no headlights on
00:50:36
as we walked it kept following my brother from the street wait my brother and I had walkie talkies awesome nice so we were communicating about it and we decided to run and head behind the houses to get away from the street and meet up a few houses down
00:50:52
As we took off running, the van took off down the street and finally after a few houses,
00:50:56
turned the lights on and sped away. Was I going to be next? I guess I'll never know.
00:51:00
About five minutes later, we saw our manager told him and he called it into the paper dispatch.
00:51:05
I don't know where it went from there, but I was never questioned by the police.
00:51:08
And one year later, Eugene was gone. Ugh. Haunts me to this day, even though you are only one of the handful of people I've ever spoken to about it since it happened.
00:51:18
Wow, Mark. He said, keep up the good work and don't ever remove the humor from the podcast.
00:51:25
That is just depressing. We did a little bit on this one. He said, it isn't being disrespectful and you aren't going to hell.
00:51:33
We're just coping with a fucked up world in the best way we know how. And he wrote F'd up.
00:51:38
Thank you. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Mark. That's so true. It's coping. It's coping.
00:51:42
It's coping. But wow, ground zero at the Johnny Gush. There was no way that wasn't involved.
00:51:49
He was in the middle between two boys, paper boys being kidnapped. I'm sorry. If you're driving a van, you should be pulled over more than people of color.
00:52:00
Vans are, what good is happening in vans? Especially like a green van with their headlights off, slowly cruising down the street.
00:52:07
Please. You're the biggest child monster. My guy that I just did, William Bonin, had a green van who murdered so many people.
00:52:15
It's like you're either a serial killer or you're Scooby-Doo team. Yes. But Scooby-Doo, they were smart enough to put pink daisies on the side.
00:52:22
That's true. Which is really declared. It's a decoy. It was the mystery machine, but it actually means rape and murder.
00:52:31
It's kind of like also my story that I covered. this idea that at this time, children were roaming freely and alone all the time, everywhere.
00:52:43
No supervision, no concern. Oh, if a child's missing, they're a runaway. Don't worry about it.
00:52:49
Give it 48 hours. Like the casual neglect of truly children. It's just so wild. It's mind boggling.
00:52:58
It's mind boggling. I think especially for people today to realize, for people who grew up in the 2000s, you know,
00:53:04
with helicopter parents, how free you were back then, and how easy it was to be just targeted by
00:53:12
a predator. Yeah, because no one talked about any of this stuff. I mean, that's the kind of thing
00:53:18
that it is cool to think about when people criticize other people, women, following true crime.
00:53:26
Talking about it makes people aware and understand and it takes away that kind of We get to talk about stuff like if a man is asking you for help why would a man want a child help That kind of stuff that is super important and used to be like how dare you talk about that
00:53:43
I also love the idea that we got away from the term, which I don't think was even around then,
00:53:49
stranger danger, because that's not the fucking danger most of the time. The danger is right next to you, right there at home.
00:53:56
So we have learned so much from us women, mostly, studying true crime, you know, being fascinated.
00:54:05
Yeah, putting true crime through not the lens of salacious celebration of a killer and what was John Wayne Gacy doing.
00:54:14
It's more of like, what's happening here? What's the pattern here? Who is at risk?
00:54:19
Yeah. I don't know. I think it's kind of interesting. Signs to look out for. Yeah.
00:54:23
Yeah. Yeah. So thank you, Mark from Des Moines, for sending in that gorgeous hometown.
00:54:28
So sorry you went through that. Yeah. Such a scary. That's another case where it's like years and years and years later.
00:54:36
Yeah. And just in case you're new here, you can send your hometown, whatever it is, to myfavoritemurder at Gmail.
00:54:42
Every week we have a mini episode just reading those. Yeah. So if you like that, you can listen.
00:54:47
Be a part of it. Be a part. All right. Well, I think we're done. And the thing that we like to do now is this was the era where we did pun titles.
00:54:56
And, of course, now we pick the titles of the episodes based on things that we say within the episode.
00:55:02
Yes. So the title of this originally was Five Favorite Murders because it rhymes, I guess.
00:55:08
That doesn't rhyme. You know what I mean? Five Favorite Murders. Something. It goes together.
00:55:14
Like you could tell we were already like, oh, no. I can't think of one. I'm sure it's like, I can't think of one.
00:55:19
I have to go. Five Favorite Murders, yeah. Okay, what do you have? Oh, I guess there was a part where I jokingly said, talking about my interest in crimes of passion, I said crimes of portions.
00:55:35
Crimes of portions is pretty great. Right. I like Tony Town because I was telling you that Greenwich is a Tony Town and you love the word Tony.
00:55:46
Yes. So Tony Town. Tony is a really good way to describe rich people areas. It's Tony.
00:55:52
Yeah. I said to you, why? Because I have a legal pad? Because you said it looked like my story was well-researched because I was holding a legal pad.
00:56:00
Yes. You have a legal pad and a pen behind your ear. I am following your directions because you're the manager.
00:56:06
Imagine what you'd do if I had a clipboard. Oh, shit. There also lawyer for the ocean which of course is what I thought Martha Moxley would have become had she had the chance to live her full life Yeah Yeah You can tell us which one you like That right There polls Polls We have polls There so many ways to interact Yeah At My Favorite Murder on everything Wow Well thanks for listening to another Rewind guys I hope you like these
00:56:30
We love guiding you through our past. Yeah. Do you feel like a day one listener? Because
00:56:35
you are one. You're now a day one listener. We also still want to give props to the real
00:56:39
day one listeners. I feel like some of them are a little annoyed that everyone's going
00:56:42
to think they're day one. Everyone else, you know what I mean? There's something special
00:56:45
about it. So like, props to you. Well, maybe we'll figure out some merch that day one listeners only
00:56:51
can order. Yes. But you have to come with receipts. I don't know how. What? Oh, receipts.
00:56:57
You have to somehow be able to prove that you hit play on episode one. Yeah. We'll be able to test
00:57:02
your mental health. That's how we'll know. Oh, that's right. People that seem especially shaky
00:57:06
were like, yeah, that's one of our day one listeners. They've been through the shit with us.
00:57:11
Well, thanks for listening. Yes. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
00:57:19
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or your money back. Learn more at Shiba.com. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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