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00:01:57
My favorite world Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is episode nine.
00:02:16
This is our new weekly bonus episode where we go back to the early days, the early halcyon days of my favorite murder and comment on the way we were.
00:02:25
We were young. We were innocent. We were free. It was so 2016. We're going to reflect on all the things that have changed, give you case updates, and basically, you know, we'll treat this like a high school yearbook, but of podcasting.
00:02:38
Like a high school reunion yearbook. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's time to rewind to episode nine called Color Me Nine.
00:02:47
That's a good one. From Friday, March 25th, 2016. So get your nosy neighbor and your meanest teacher from high school and your favorite mail carrier and invite them all to this party because now we all get to be day one listeners.
00:03:02
But also shout out to real day one listeners because we love you. We knew you were there first.
00:03:06
We know, we know. So let's listen to the intro of episode nine where we discuss the podcasts we're listening to, the status of our RIP Facebook group.
00:03:15
RIP. And more. 1,500 people in the Facebook group is so precious. That's a lot of people.
00:03:23
It was for a beginning. It was very shocking, I think, to us. This is going to be a confession that I've never confessed to you.
00:03:30
I probably told you at the time, but nobody else. When the Facebook page was that small, I'd get up in the morning to kind of look at what was happening.
00:03:39
And if people posted lame memes, I would delete them. Karen Kilgariff, did I make you a moderator?
00:03:47
Yeah, I was on there. Okay. I was on there. And because it turned into this thing where it was like people were, they were just lame. So it was like some people would post stuff that was amazing and great and really funny.
00:03:58
What would be on the chopping block? Well, if the same meme got posted over and over again, I was just like, this has been done and it's from three days ago.
00:04:06
It's like when people tag you in the same sinkhole nowadays over and over again. You're like, I've seen it, I swear.
00:04:12
We've seen it. We've seen it. But also, I think those memes that look like they were from that one app where it was the white block letters and it was just something where I was just like, all right, we need the quality to be a little bit higher here.
00:04:23
OK, she wanted to clean it up a little bit. I really did see it as my own Facebook page back then where I'm like, I don't want this shit on my Facebook page. But then people would come on and be like, who's deleting my thing and get all crazy.
00:04:34
They call it a dirty delete. And they get so fucking mad. And it's like, read the room, aka the Facebook page. It's already there.
00:04:45
But also, what a fun confession. I love that. If you were mad because you got dirty deleted, it was me.
00:04:51
That's amazing. I'm so glad I finally know that. Isn't this the kind of Easter egg people are looking for in these Rewind episodes?
00:04:57
I think so. You can just see our numbers going up, up, up, up, up, up. Also in this episode, we talk about the fact that the Facebook group suggested a drinking game.
00:05:06
Maybe the first my favorite murder drinking game of many, because there's been more.
00:05:10
It's whenever I gasp or say, holy shit, you take a shot. And when you sing a regular word in conversation, which I want you to do it, but it's not going to be natural if you do it.
00:05:21
I'll try to fold one in in this episode. I would love that. Okay. Because I just, yeah, I don't want to like put you on the spot because when you do it, it's just very like unexpected.
00:05:30
I literally just did it in a meeting we were in. I don't remember. Yeah, I remember when I said,
00:05:36
thank you to our fucked up families for letting us make stuff while we're stressed out.
00:05:42
Yes. Or something else. That was it. That was an example. See, it's not as good.
00:05:46
It's not. You build it up, then you actually do it. Surprise me. Murder, murder, murder.
00:05:55
Are you ready for some money you should look up uh synonyms murder Okay For this podcast Okay Oh for the titles of the podcast
00:06:06
No, no. Just in general. So we don't say that word as much. Oh, right. Yeah. Being taken out violently.
00:06:13
Assassinations. Assassinations. What are we going to name this episode, do you think?
00:06:17
It's number nine. Yeah. Nine. Non-lives. it's pretty much how this goes spitballing it doesn't get better after that never welcome
00:06:32
everybody to my favorite murder hi that's georgia hart stark that's karen kilgariff i said it like i
00:06:38
wasn't sure i know that's georgia georgia georgia georgia right georgia hartschers the worst is when
00:06:45
someone misspells your name in a professional setting when they should absolutely spell your
00:06:49
name correctly yes right karen kilgariff with a complicated last name yes uh that's happened to me
00:06:54
many times. Also, the worst is when people say your last name, who you've known for years,
00:07:01
and you realize that they always thought it was Kilgaris or Kilgarath. When you're like,
00:07:06
well, I wish you knew me more. I know. Hardstock? What the fuck? Hard and stark are two very simple
00:07:12
words. And yet somehow next to each other, people freak the fuck out. People freak out.
00:07:18
although I do do that thing where when I see somebody that I know for sure uh like if I ran
00:07:25
into Dustin in a bar I would in my mind I'd go hi Dustin and when I would go to say it what if I'm
00:07:31
wrong yes oh my god I do that too except when I see someone that I for sure know like Dustin I'll
00:07:35
scream their name in front of them because I'm so excited that I know them you know what I mean
00:07:39
like you want the credit yeah because normally I'm like I know who you are yeah but I don't think I
00:07:44
do. And I'm the kind of person that if I mess it up and the person's like, don't worry about it,
00:07:49
I won't stop talking about it. Right. Or worrying about it. Right. Or letting it go. People call me
00:07:54
Ali sometimes and I'm like, it's okay. It's not okay. It's okay. But it's not. Well, I mean,
00:08:01
you should at least get one letter right. Totally. The first letter. Totally. Is all I ask.
00:08:06
I love that you have that word killing your name too. Oh, me too. I find it intimidates people.
00:08:11
Yeah, we both have kind of like hardcore badass last names. You have a, like yours is reminiscent of Charles Starkweather, the famous spree killer.
00:08:20
Sure. That we're not talking about on this episode, but that we. Okay, we know what I want to talk about up top before we start our favorite murders.
00:08:28
Before we start this bullshit. Yeah. Is someone knows something, the podcast. Yes.
00:08:34
Are you, I texted you the other day because I knew you were driving. No, I was in New York.
00:08:38
I was flying. Oh, nice. Yeah. and I was like so you gotta listen to this yep and I did
00:08:43
all of them all well there were only three right there's a new one oh is there really good
00:08:49
I'll listen to that on my drive home so this is I didn't realize it when I started listening
00:08:52
but it's like it's the entire season of this podcast is about one topic yeah should I read the description
00:08:57
sure because it's good it's fucking great on June 12th 1972 five-year-old Adrian McNaughton
00:09:03
wandered away from his family at a lake in eastern Ontario and disappeared without a trace
00:09:07
in season one of Someone Knows Something host, David Ridgen, who grew up in the area, goes back and search for answers. And I had heard of
00:09:14
this case and I'd never cared because I was like, he got eaten by bears clearly, but no.
00:09:18
The more he goes into it, that's what I like about it is you make up a thing. You hear facts
00:09:23
from him and then you go, well, it's that guy or it's this thing. And then he keeps laying down
00:09:28
hard facts that he goes out and looks at himself. So there's recordings of him walking in the woods,
00:09:34
testing the echo talking to people who have never talked to anybody about it right who were they it
00:09:40
was one guy who was there that when he wandered away and the police had never spoken to him about
00:09:44
it it's pretty it's a pretty great show i hope it stays that way so good and and i find sometimes i
00:09:51
get a little bit impatient and this is sexist of me but when the boys get a little um wistful
00:09:57
and poetic about their own thoughts and feelings about things where i'm just like uh-huh that's
00:10:03
the opposite of sexist and I love it because it's always sexist against women fucking getting
00:10:08
being poetic about shit. True. True. But I mean, like I just have that thing where,
00:10:13
yeah, I just don't want anyone to be precious really. But then I find it slightly more sickening
00:10:18
if it's a man because I've bought into our cultural stereotypes and norms. Right. But
00:10:24
when this guy does it, I buy it. I feel like he's being sincere. I don't think it's self-conscious
00:10:30
or self-serving. He seems so sincere that it's great. And it's clear that he's written out everything he's
00:10:37
saying. It's more of a story he's telling and the writing is good and he tells the story in not a boring
00:10:42
way like some of the other true crime podcasts do. Right. The music is a little dramatic at times
00:10:48
and the soundtracks, the sound is a little dramatic. But he's Canadian. But it's okay.
00:10:52
They have a sincerity. Oh, totally. That they don't fear that here in America is
00:10:56
almost not allowed. Right. And I like to indulge in that. with a Canadian man every once in a while.
00:11:02
I love this podcast. It's our new The Simpsons, what we talk about at the beginning of every episode.
00:11:07
Which, of course, means the people versus O.J. Simpsons. Yeah. Not O.J. Simpsons?
00:11:11
As many O.J. Simpsons as it takes to discuss it. Although the last episode, I have to say,
00:11:16
the one about the jury was not so... I loved it. You did? You didn't like it? I mean, I loved knowing.
00:11:22
I didn't know any of that stuff. I didn't either. What a fucking bummer to be stuck in a hotel
00:11:26
and you can't speak to anyone for months. For eight months. and then they didn't treat them well.
00:11:30
No. No, it was, well, it was, it was good in that it was kind of riveting, but it was riveting in almost like in a telenovela way.
00:11:41
Yeah. It was ridiculously dramatic. It kind of took us off the track that we were already on with all the episodes.
00:11:48
It felt like we were moving forward and this one didn't really feel like it was moving forward.
00:11:51
No, but the other thing I like, it felt very different. Yeah. But I also loved Marsha Clark and her new hair She looks hot right She looks great in that hair And also she was so badass in this one There was no she didn do any like rim
00:12:05
tears on the rim of her eyes or putting her head in her hands. She told, she told, what's his,
00:12:12
Johnny Crockering to go to the playground or something. Or what was it? The daycare.
00:12:17
Go to daycare because this is the smoker's lounge. Yeah. And I was like, okay. But if that really happened, which it probably didn't,
00:12:22
I'm so happy about. I feel like it could have. It could have. I mean, by that point, she's so pissed.
00:12:27
So many things like DNA evidence got completely ignored. I mean, I feel like today that wouldn't happen.
00:12:34
No, no one knew what it was. Yeah. What I'm loving more than anything is David Schwimmer's character, like realizing his friend
00:12:40
is a fucking murderer and him apologizing to his wife. Yes. That his friend is murdered.
00:12:47
Yeah. His defending a man who murdered her best friend. Yeah. What a bummer. What a terrible.
00:12:52
I wonder if he had quit the trial, would he not die of cancer? Would he not have died of cancer and would have OJ gotten off?
00:13:00
Probably not. Oh, you mean during it? Sorry. Yes. I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah.
00:13:05
Yeah. I mean, no, that would have been bad news. Exactly. So maybe that should have been his non-statement statement that he's like, I can't support this anymore.
00:13:15
Yeah, except for that then you're basically choosing how a person's life is going to go.
00:13:19
Yeah, but defending him, you're doing the same thing. Or you're trying to at least.
00:13:24
I know, Georgia. It's so heavy. There's a lot of decisions in life that one has to make. And it's not until they make a dramatic reenactment TV show 20 years later about it that you realize the decisions you should have made.
00:13:38
Yeah, I mean, please live your life like you're going to be reenacted in 30 years. And do you want someone of as high quality as Sarah Paulson to portray you?
00:13:48
Yeah, and you need to live your life like Sarah Paulson could be your you. A quiet nobility.
00:13:55
Right. A single tear. Or do you want John fucking Travolta being the most flamboyant, incredible character since Behind the Candelabra?
00:14:05
And maybe even better. I love it though, but I don't mind it. Oh, I love it. It doesn't bring me out of it.
00:14:10
I never think of John Travolta. I believe him. I do too. I don't know if Robert Shapiro is like that.
00:14:15
I have to assume he's somewhat like that in personal situations. And I love it. I'd like to sing a tune of praise for the very unsung.
00:14:26
Nathan Lane is F. Lee Bailey. Nathan Lane is F. Lee Bailey. And yeah, Nathan Lane.
00:14:31
Who knew he'd be in this? I got so excited. Yeah, he's almost unrecognizable, not only because of his wig, but because I just believe it's that guy.
00:14:40
I do too. And F. Lee Bailey is such a noble character that it had to be played by someone excellent.
00:14:45
And Nathan Lane is a beloved actor. Perfect for that role. Right. Oh, guys. We did it.
00:14:52
If you're not watching it, we've ruined it. If you're not watching it, you've ruined yourself.
00:14:57
You've ruined it for yourself. There's nothing more we can ruin in your life. How's it going?
00:15:05
Everything else all right? Oh, yeah. Everything's good. I'm not murdered yet. I'm fucking...
00:15:09
The Facebook group is like near and dear to my heart at this point. The Facebook book group is making me regret leaving Facebook.
00:15:16
If you want to sign up a fake account, fake name, I will not out you. But it is such a it is such a pleasing place to go when I have insomnia and just talk to
00:15:27
like everyone is so fucking cool. I comment and I and I post things and I read everyone's posts and it's just like really
00:15:33
fun. And the discussions we get into and the comments people make, everyone's nice.
00:15:38
There hasn't been anything racist or mean yet. I haven't had to kick one person out.
00:15:43
Which is like shocking for Facebook. I thought we were really big in the racist community.
00:15:48
Damn it. Well, we are. They just keep it quiet. They're, oh yeah, they behave appropriately.
00:15:53
And there's 50, this is our ninth episode and there's already 1500 people in the Facebook group.
00:15:58
Fuck yeah, you guys. Thank you. It turns out everyone needed a place to talk about murder.
00:16:03
Well, it is fascinating. Yeah. It truly is. We actually, somebody at work today started talking about HH Holmes.
00:16:09
Yeah. Literally in my head, I had to say like a teacher, don't say anything Karen let her tell her story don't be a know-it-all don't I I like had to
00:16:18
press my lips together because all I want to do is be like yeah don't you want to be like
00:16:23
murder is mine like I'm the one who talks you don't get to talk about murder I talk about murder
00:16:29
I think though that's a that's kind of a good lesson just in general because I think I've been
00:16:33
that way about more than murder all of my life it's such a hard thing not to be like but it's
00:16:39
like if someone brings it up themselves, let them tell the story. Let them have it. You murder
00:16:44
doesn't belong to you or whatever it is. Doesn't belong. I'm this, I'm not telling you, I'm telling
00:16:48
myself because this is, I totally agree. Oh, that wasn't to me. No, that was to me in any
00:16:52
conversation. Oh, not. Oh yeah. Did you know that? Yes. You know, it's so hard. And then when you're
00:16:57
like, oh, well, and you'd like bring up something that compares to it. You just sound like an
00:17:01
asshole unless you're, you're sincerely wanting to bring up another murder. You're, you're instead
00:17:07
of saying like, well, this is how much I know about it, which I do all the time.
00:17:10
Yes. This podcast could also go into the areas of etiquette, general etiquette. Well, I do it in this podcast too, of not wanting to speak over you like I just did.
00:17:20
But it's fine with me. Okay. Well, I don't want it. With you and I. Okay. Well, not wanting to speak over you. Also not wanting to be like, yeah, no, I know
00:17:28
that murder you're about to talk about. But it delights me when you do that. I think it's hilarious.
00:17:32
There was one you had that I kept trying to add to and kept telling myself, just shut the fuck up in my head because it was so obnoxious.
00:17:40
But it's hard for me. It's hard when you read a thing by yourself and you're like, there was a man in Chicago during the World's Fair that built a basically built a murder hotel.
00:17:49
And I just finding out now And I read it with what I imagine other people read like books when they go to college I read it with the same enthusiasm and kind of like absorption So then when somebody else starts talking about it I want them to know that I
00:18:05
know, like, I want them to know. To know that you're cool. I guess. Yeah. And yeah, like that I,
00:18:12
I want to like scream and grab each other's shoulders. I want that feeling with people.
00:18:17
I don't know that. I do too. And I want them to know that I'm on the level with them and we can
00:18:21
have this conversation instead of like, and also like, you're going to keep telling me about it.
00:18:25
And then you're going to find out that I have a true crime podcast. And you're like, why didn't
00:18:28
you say anything that you knew about this? Especially really the book, The Devil in the
00:18:31
White City. Yes. That's what we were talking about. Did you read that? No, yeah, that's it.
00:18:36
That's what we, I had to wait till she was done and then kind of like take a beat. I was really
00:18:42
using it as like an exercise. And then someone goes, I think they're making a movie. I think
00:18:47
there was a book. And then I was like, don't say it. The second, the words out of their mouth.
00:18:51
And then I was like, that's right. It's called devil. Yeah, but then if I were the girl who brought it up,
00:18:56
I'd be like, wait, so this whole time you've been letting me mansplain something to you and you knew about it.
00:19:01
But also sometimes mansplaining is just talking. Sometimes people get to talk to us knowing something
00:19:08
and we can accept that. Yeah, and we don't have to know. We don't have to tell them, but I know.
00:19:13
Yes. I know everything. Yeah, we can be not in the position of victim or somebody that's being oppressed.
00:19:19
you can assume that person doesn't have the power to oppress you and you're just being polite and
00:19:24
letting them letting them be a know-it-all is an okay thing to do but then they're never going to
00:19:28
get to know you because you did because you didn't tell them that you know shit that's very true but
00:19:35
I'm also this is a work situation where I can't I have to let my personality out bit by bit because
00:19:41
it's a lot you can't scream in someone's face yes I love murder as my mom used to say you're too much
00:19:48
and she meant it very literally. Well, we're a lot. And that's why we have a true crime podcast.
00:19:53
We're a lot. A murder podcast. We could, yeah. This podcast could literally go for four hours.
00:19:58
Yeah. That's why we're friends is because the first time we actually hung out on our own,
00:20:01
we had a five hour lunch. Yeah, we did. Just talking. And the whole time I kept thinking,
00:20:05
am I the only one that wants to stay here? She's trapped. Right. But we, it was clear
00:20:10
that we were both voluntarily eating lunch for five hours. Yeah. And the conversation flowed.
00:20:14
It wasn't one-sided. That's right. I think. I think. Do you, speaking of one-sided...
00:20:19
We still have our doubts. We are good. We are great. Anxiety is real. Speaking of one-sided and talking about the thing.
00:20:29
Yes. Do you want to do your favorite murderer? I think you're first. Do you want me to go first?
00:20:38
Okay, we're back. Here we are in good old 2024. This is us now. That was us then.
00:20:45
How different is it? We're in a studio right now, first of all. The sound quality in here is incredible.
00:20:52
The sound quality, the air temperature. Yeah. The visuals. The visuals. I mean, that was a cute apartment, you've got to admit.
00:20:59
No, no. Your apartment was great, and the smells were amazing. But I do love this shade of green.
00:21:06
Yeah. Yeah. Two cats in a one-bedroom apartment will really do something about the odor of the...
00:21:12
I think that Elvis could feel the energy that was building around us. And he was just like, guys, this is so exciting.
00:21:18
I have to shit right here in the room with you. My favorite thing was you would get up and be like, oh, my God, I have to take care of this right now.
00:21:25
And it'd just be like, yeah, I don't care. There's nothing you can do. We would be recording and be like in the episode.
00:21:32
And you'll be like, oh, my God, I have to do this right now. Like, clearly you were just so embarrassed.
00:21:36
So embarrassed. Where it's like, it's a cat. They do it all the time. Yeah, but Elvis was particularly obdiferous when it came to it.
00:21:44
Like, he was just so male Siamese that it was like, he's not just going to take a shit.
00:21:48
He's going to take a shit that fucking ruins the atmosphere. Ruins the vibe. Also, he was 82, I believe, when we were recording those.
00:21:56
82 years old. Oh, my sweet boy. He was on statins. He was on cholesterol medication.
00:22:03
He was highly medicated. Oh, my God. Good boy. All right. So let's go into your story, Karen.
00:22:09
You are covering the Exorcist serial killer because our theme is hiding in plain sight.
00:22:17
Which is great. That's a good theme. Yeah. This is one of my favorite true crime stories because it's so creepy and sinister.
00:22:26
And it's one of those things of like, oh, this guy in this scene from this movie actually, and it unravels into like a whole other movie.
00:22:36
Yeah. And it's just, it's crazy. It's chilling. And then at the end, I mean, let's we'll talk about it after.
00:22:44
But like they like let him out of prison after a while. Yeah. It's one of those. All right. Let's listen.
00:22:52
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you told me this week's theme in a way that i already knew that you knew what you were doing
00:25:03
yes i read i what they call reverse engineered this week's theme because i had to do this story
00:25:10
because one of our now i'm afraid i guess i'll say his first name and last initial because one of
00:25:16
our listeners dm'd us which i adore he dm'd us like so as not to embarrass i think but he was
00:25:22
like, how could you have talked about The Exorcist and not talked about this? And sent me a link and
00:25:28
all this stuff. And I wrote back in all caps, holy shit, how did I miss this? So that's where mine
00:25:34
started. So then when I talked to Georgia, I was like, can this week's be like hiding in plain
00:25:39
sight or murders that like they were right there the whole time? Okay. Kind of thing. Because
00:25:46
in The Exorcist, one of the biggest stories, and I swear, I looked at over five websites about my
00:25:52
Exorcist cursed movie set that is, which was my thing last week, if you didn't hear it.
00:25:59
But Brian B., our listener, sent us a DM because there was a guy in The Exorcist and he was the
00:26:07
guy that played the radiologist, something's wrong with my mouth, radiologist assistant.
00:26:15
In the scene we talked about that I said was so creepy where she was in that crazy machine
00:26:19
getting like the MRI. The guy that plays the assistant in that scene turned out to be a serial killer.
00:26:27
No. Yes. Like a serial killer, serial killer. A legit six victim, straight up, New York in the 70s, serial killer.
00:26:36
That just reminded me of something when I gasped is that there is a thread on the Facebook group
00:26:39
that every time I say, holy shit, you have to take a shot. Or when I say no, or when I gasped,
00:26:47
like there's certain things. And then when you say, when you sing a word, like a thing, like, yes, it is.
00:26:55
You have to take a shot. It's pretty hilarious. It's very lighthearted. It's not in a mean way at all.
00:26:59
Oh, no, no, no. Please. Okay. But now I don't want to be self-conscious about it.
00:27:03
I'm doing all the time. Because I love when people are so drunk, they fall off their own couch.
00:27:11
All right. So I, when Ryan B sent us this, this very tasteful DM about a huge thing I missed and I'm so bummed.
00:27:20
Please don't beat yourself up. I won't, I won't entirely, but talk about like wanting to be an expert and dropping the ball.
00:27:27
Well, I'm like the first five websites that came up, they didn't mention this. They didn't, they didn't.
00:27:32
So nobody knew. But yeah, maybe it is like specialized knowledge or something. Maybe I just have to go to better websites first.
00:27:40
or you have to like, I've been Googling weird shit, like the weird, the weird stuff, not just
00:27:46
like so-and-so murder. I've been Googling like deep down weird shit. Have you gone dark web?
00:27:52
I wish I could. I don't know how to go dark web, but I really, I don't want to. Okay. So here's the,
00:27:58
here's the research part. And, uh, I hope I do this justice, but I'm not going to,
00:28:02
because I basically did only part of my homework, but essentially this is, this is it in a nutshell.
00:28:06
I'm excited. The guy's name was Paul Bateson. And he was in real life, a 38 year old x-ray tech
00:28:14
at NYU Med Center where they shot that scene. Oh, it's called an arteriogram is what she was
00:28:20
getting in that scene, which is like a crazy machine that like, it's like a, it looks like a,
00:28:25
not a centrifuge, but like the thing that where it spins you in all those different directions,
00:28:28
very upsetting and weird noises. So, um, I guess when they probably, when they went to like,
00:28:34
she look go location scout he was there they cast him because he already worked there and
00:28:39
knew how to work the machine legit already right and what i love is the link that brian b sent us
00:28:45
the picture that comes up with this article he looks so creepy he looks like any dude in the
00:28:52
70s like kind of forward his hair's going forward kind of sandy blonde um goatee but his eyes are
00:28:58
like his eyes are drooping like they're melting so like you were like that what a great casting
00:29:03
job that they hired this actor. And it's like, nope, it's, he's really, this is what he looks
00:29:07
like. And that's why they hired him from this creepy movie. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't
00:29:12
know if, I mean, that's a little woo woo to think, but like his secret life was the reason that scene
00:29:17
was so creepy. I actually don't, oh, this was before. So he went, these murders happened
00:29:22
later in the seventies. So I think he was, he did that first. Oh no, sorry. The murder started
00:29:28
in 1973. So that was... So he was like on camera having had murdered someone. I think so.
00:29:35
I should. I would have to look up. The movie came out in 73 and was... I'm the one that did this.
00:29:41
No, you're good. Just pretend like you know what you're talking about. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm
00:29:44
talking about. Just own it. Yeah, I think he murdered... He must have murdered before. Directly. I think
00:29:52
he was doing it during and then ended up getting caught after because it was over a period of time So essentially what happened is so these people started going missing or there was like murder scene
00:30:05
So the first one was a man named Ronald Cabo. He lived in the West village and he was stabbed to death on his sofa.
00:30:12
And then his apartment was set on fire. He's 29 years old. Holy shit. Someone take a shot.
00:30:18
Holy shit. Right. Cause he's so young. Yeah. And then four days later. So they just think that's standard murder in New York city.
00:30:24
Yeah. in 1973. Forties later, a man named Donald McNiven, who was 40 years old and a guy named
00:30:30
John P.W. Beardsley, age 53, were both found in Donald's apartment on Varick Street. They both
00:30:39
lived in the building, but they were in Donald's apartment. And again, the apartment had been set
00:30:44
on fire. And Beardsley was actually on the social register in New York and Philadelphia. So he was
00:30:51
like some fancy he had been a harvard grad so um and they had no idea they just looked another
00:30:58
like another bad stabbing murder i think beardsley was the one stabbed and mcnibin mcniven was
00:31:05
bludgeoned did they it was four days later four days later did they connect the two immediately
00:31:11
i wonder not at all how do you not connect to stabbing and fires because well maybe they they
00:31:16
might have like noted it but he's in the 70s new york city i think there's several murders a day
00:31:22
and they're not sharing precinct to precinct right murders right um two weeks later the body of
00:31:29
robin barrero was found floating in the hudson river he had been missing for five weeks and he
00:31:35
was still in a leather jacket he was really um decomposed but he had a leather jacket on and
00:31:42
And then nine days after that, two gay men were murdered. I think they think they were roommates and their dog, their pet poodle.
00:31:55
No. Yes. And from the stuff that was in the apartment at that murder is when they started putting together.
00:32:03
These are all people who have something to do with the leather community. Okay. I was going to say that that would make sense.
00:32:09
Yeah. The leather jacket started and, and in that first guy, Robert Barrero, or sorry, Ronald Cabo, the picture that they have up of him, he's really young and he's wearing a leather jacket. So I'm, I'm sure at the time it was like, oh, that's just fashion choice, whatever. But then person after person, they're probably finding different things. And so by the end, one of the jackets, they got the tag and they found it was belonged to a store in the West Village that was completely an S&M store.
00:32:36
S&M clothing and supplies. So it's like a leather gay boys killing. And so that's when they start to realize
00:32:47
oh this is gay. But once again it's just like the freeway murders in LA when it's a gay community
00:32:53
thing or any disenfranchised when it's prostitutes. Totally. The cops are like eh. Who cares?
00:32:59
No one cares and we're not going to get pressure from City Hall. I mean I'm sure they could. If it's someone
00:33:03
in the community and everyone is who's being killed is in that communities that you, you talk to the rest of the people
00:33:08
in that community and they're like, this guy is creepy and has gone home with all of these
00:33:11
men. Right. It's pretty simple. No, it's not. I mean, I'm sure it's not that simple, but it seems like simple, but, but it's the thing
00:33:18
of what people decide to value. Right. So people, if the people in power don't value your life or your, what you do in the community,
00:33:27
if they actually think you're gross or bad or judge you morally, then they won't try to
00:33:33
help you or they won't feel any, you know, burning desire to find your killer. Well, they say, I mean, this is what they say. And I've totally, so they say you're living a
00:33:43
high risk lifestyle already. Are you living a high risk lifestyle? Well, then are you a prostitute?
00:33:49
Are you a drug addict? Are you living, you know, in a gay community where you're around a lot of
00:33:57
strange men a lot? Yeah. That's a high risk lifestyle and they care less about you. Yeah.
00:34:01
Because they think you can't, living a high risk lifestyle means you kind of deserved it.
00:34:05
It's, you brought it on yourself. I'm not saying, I'm not saying I think that, but.
00:34:08
Of course not. Right. But it's an excuse. I'm sure when cops see, you know, it's New York City in the 70s, they saw probably 20
00:34:16
murders a day. Yeah. So you're trying to somehow prioritize these things or, or you can't put your heart and
00:34:22
soul into every single thing that comes across your desk. But so, but I'm sure it got very easy to start marginalizing the deaths of these people or
00:34:30
to not put things you know yeah things together yeah so anyway body parts start washing up on the
00:34:37
shore of the hudson river so there's like apparently there's a gay cruising spot um by the hudson river
00:34:43
piers and that's where different body parts uh wrapped in garbage bags start showing up and so
00:34:49
they putting all this together um they started calling the whole case the in the bag oh wow
00:34:58
Wow. And so you can tell by that, you know, obviously there's not, there's not a lot of
00:35:04
sensitivity back then anyway, but that's basically their attitude about all this stuff that's going
00:35:08
on. Um, so then a drag performer, they said drag performance article, but let's call her a drag
00:35:16
queen. I bet she was a queen. Uh, and her name was Tony Lee and she was strangled in her apartment
00:35:22
in the West village. And the village voice wrote a big article about it. Cause she was famous. A
00:35:27
A lot of people knew her. And that's when they started to really put together. They knew for a fact that after hours and after like the normal bars, she would go to leather bars.
00:35:36
And so that's when they, you know, were like, oh, we think we really were onto something with this like leather theory.
00:35:41
Yeah. And then a man named Addison Verrill, who was 36, and he was the film critic for Variety magazine.
00:35:49
He was found stabbed and bludgeoned stabbed and bludgeoned with a cast iron skillet in his apartment It still weird that all of them are in their own apartments meaning that this person was allowed to come in Yes that right That what scares me the most is like yeah I know this person I see him around my scene Yeah It pickup stuff It like it
00:36:09
they're going to sex bars or going to leather bars or just, you know, the seventies, this is
00:36:13
like the looking for Mr. Goodbar where everybody was like, it was post hippie shit where people are
00:36:19
like, yeah, I'm sexually liberated. It's pre-AIDS epidemic. Yeah. Where it was kind of like, yeah,
00:36:26
everybody wants to have sex. Let's do this thing. There's a lot of trust. And especially with,
00:36:33
they were in this thing I was reading about is like the leather community, there's lots of,
00:36:36
you know, like leather daddies are like really big, muscly men. So they don't think anyone's
00:36:40
going to hurt them. They're, you know, in charge. It's all, it's very overblown presentational
00:36:46
masculinity it's less of a risk than a woman going home with a man because a man can defend himself
00:36:51
supposedly against another man yeah exactly and also they're like um that's part of the play
00:36:57
which i'm sure is the other thing the cops were like you know this is a little something that got
00:37:02
out of hand type of thing because what you're into anyway right blame blame blame right uh so
00:37:08
this uh journalist named arthur bell wrote up this big article after addison verrill um that
00:37:15
after the story came out that he was stabbed because the whole the whole story about Addison
00:37:20
Varel was whitewashed they didn't talk about him being gay they were it was very like a terrible
00:37:25
murder but they made it sound to sound like a passing thing murder and Arthur Bell was like
00:37:30
there is a serious serial killer in our community and we have to start giving a shit and if nobody's
00:37:37
going to give a shit about somebody that's famous like yeah like this is our chance or whatever so
00:37:42
he wrote a big, huge article for the Village Voice about that people needed to start,
00:37:48
like real police work needed to start going into this because people were very afraid.
00:37:53
And then he got a phone call, Arthur Bell, this journalist. He gets a phone call from a man
00:37:57
who tells him, I'm the guy that killed Addison Verrill. And we were together. I met him at a bar.
00:38:05
We went back to his apartment. And while we were, like, after we had sex, I had an epiphany. And I
00:38:11
realized this was not a reciprocal relationship. He didn't love me. He didn't want to be my
00:38:16
boyfriend. He didn't want to get married. And, um, I wasn't getting anything I wanted and that's
00:38:23
why I killed him. And he tells him a bunch of specifics, including that there was Crisco all
00:38:30
over the scene, uh, of the crime, which was a very common lubricant that people used back then,
00:38:36
that that had not been released to the press in any way. And so Arthur Bell calls the cops and says,
00:38:44
I just got this phone call that was crazy. I figured I should tell you. And he starts telling them these details
00:38:49
that no one else knows besides the cops. And the cops know this is the real guy.
00:38:53
Holy crap. So he talked to the real killer, which is insane. So then Arthur gets a call from a guy named Richard Ryan,
00:39:02
who said he also knew who the killer was because he had met him and talked to him.
00:39:08
And this guy had basically told him, I think he said he met him in AA or something.
00:39:13
And he basically had been trying to get sober and had admitted to him that like he had killed Addison Barrow.
00:39:21
Wow. And so- But that's the only one he admitted to killing. Yes. So he, Arthur Bell takes that information,
00:39:28
goes to the cops, gives them the name. And that's when they go and find Paul Bateson.
00:39:33
and after they arrested Bateson he was in Rikers and apparently he was bragging to
00:39:39
everybody in there that he not only killed Addison Farrell but he was killing quote like a bunch of gay guys
00:39:45
just for fun because he was bored. Holy shit. And so then Just for fun because he was bored. Yeah.
00:39:53
He was trying to impress people. Go bowling dude. He was cutting people up, wrapping
00:40:00
their parts in bags and dumping them they think he's actually they think he's responsible for way more murders but he would
00:40:08
only he only he pled guilty to the addison barrel murder got 20 years and he got out in 2004 20
00:40:14
years from just for stabbing bludgeoning murder just because you got sad that someone didn't love
00:40:20
you dude oh you mean the murderer yeah oh yeah yeah you got bummed that addison didn't love you
00:40:26
but you know this i mean he's psychotic or you know yeah but it's so weird like a so an un
00:40:32
what's the word I'm looking at it's not like they got in a fight he just killed him and he only gets 20 years
00:40:37
that bothers me so much well he's crazy he clearly can't you know what's he going to have another relationship
00:40:43
and then how's he going to deal with that I hate that there are people like that out there
00:40:47
yeah there's lots of them I don't but here's the interesting thing so William Friedkin
00:40:53
hears about this finds out that an extra in his movie was a serial killer goes to Rikers and starts interviewing him
00:41:01
and then decides, and in the meantime, somebody else, I don't have the author's name,
00:41:06
wrote a book called Cruising, which was about a serial killer in the 70s leather scene in New York
00:41:14
City. And so Friedkin goes and talks to Paul Bateson and then decides he's going to direct
00:41:18
the movie. No way. And so there's a movie called Cruising starring Al Pacino about a cop that's
00:41:24
going undercover in the New York City leather scene to find a serial killer. Did you watch it?
00:41:30
I have not seen it. I wonder if it's easy to find or if it's one of those. I think it is. Well, it's kind
00:41:34
of infamous because it's very homophobic. It's very bad. Yeah. Like, it basically says
00:41:40
all these people are deviants without morals and would kill you or kill anybody.
00:41:45
And there's a lot of bad stuff in it. And when the gay community found out that they were shooting this movie in New York City,
00:41:52
they all, it basically galvanized the gay rights movement and they would go down and like protest the shooting the while they were filming yeah so they would go down with whistles that they were they were holding up like mirrors
00:42:05
and making the light go into the scenes or whatever um that's great but they ended up shooting it
00:42:11
anyway they got it done and when it came out everyone was like this is the worst like up until
00:42:16
that point yeah most gay men in film were like oh you're the kooky butler that has no real life or
00:42:22
personality. And they don't actually say you're gay. They just imply it. You're just a joke.
00:42:26
Right. You're just a joke. And now you're not just, now you're, when you're not a joke,
00:42:30
you're a murderer. And a murder victim who kind of deserves it. You're a victim. Exactly. And
00:42:35
you're, everything about your life lacks all morals and you're just, you're basically, yeah.
00:42:40
How much more real would that whole story be if, if the person, the murderer, it had nothing to do
00:42:45
with the fact that he was gay. He's just a fucking psychopathic murderer. Yes. You know? Yeah. But
00:42:50
I mean, yeah, it's just the whole thing is, is super awful. There's a great movie called
00:42:56
The Celluloid Closet and it's a documentary about, um, you know, like gay people in Hollywood
00:43:02
and, um, and all, and the treatment of them and the, and basically the way they've been
00:43:07
presented and seen. It's pretty fascinating. And they talk about cruising. It's really good.
00:43:12
I think that's it. I had something else, but. Sorry, my cats are attacking each other next
00:43:16
to you. That's amazing. That's it. So tell me his name again. I want to go... Paul Bateson is his name.
00:43:24
I want to go back and see that scene where there's a fucking real-life serial killer.
00:43:28
I know. It's really good. It's very, very creepy scene. Now, I should have watched... I just didn't have time to watch Cruising,
00:43:34
but I also know it's incredibly depressing. There's no point in you watching that. And I also
00:43:38
read reviews of it, and apparently it's not very cohesive, and it was initially rated
00:43:44
X, so they had to pull out all these scenes because there's all this like you know kind of intense leather yeah scene shit and
00:43:52
they wouldn't the um mpaa or whatever they're called would not let william friedkin so basically
00:43:58
when he had to edit it it came out way shorter and almost nonsensical oh my god yeah and people
00:44:03
always talk about wanting to go back in time which i totally fucking do but the 70s even the 70s the
00:44:08
80s the 90s were so racist and homophobic and fucking sexist would you really want to go back
00:44:14
I mean, that's the thing. It's just this, it's the more we talk about stuff like this,
00:44:18
it's just becomes this like humanist thing to me where it's just like we have people have to,
00:44:25
I mean, it's separate from mentally ill people who just like have to murder or whatever,
00:44:29
but it's a thing of like, we have to look at each other as human beings. It's crazy that,
00:44:34
you know what I mean? We always want to go, oh, those people get what they deserve. Or it's like,
00:44:37
are you fucking crazy? But if something happens to you, you don't deserve it. Yeah, someone could, you and I could be in a category that someone, a lot of people out there would say that about for whatever reason, because we're women, because we live in Los Angeles, because, you know, whatever the reasons.
00:44:52
Yeah. So people could say that about you. So why would you say that about other people?
00:44:56
Right. It's just, it's just lame. It's just, I don't know. I don't know. At the end of all these stories, I'm always like, oh, that's lame.
00:45:07
I'm sorry I brought it up. Sorry I brought it up. It's a rough one. It's called My Favorite Murder.
00:45:13
I'm sorry I brought it up. I'm sorry I brought it up. I'm not. Yeah, there's something fascinating to the idea that there's just like a person in a horror movie that's also living is walking the walk.
00:45:24
I wonder if he, in his twisted brain, was like laughing at the irony of it, too.
00:45:29
I know. I wonder. He's apparently a very bad alcoholic, too. So he claims he didn't remember a lot.
00:45:35
He's still alive and he's out. Oh, yeah. I think he's died since. He got out in 2004.
00:45:40
he was living in upstate New York. What did he do after? Just chill and make breakfast? Did he make breakfast for himself every day?
00:45:46
You know what? He went down to the community center and he... That's so crazy. He loved to
00:45:52
help with the spaghetti dinner every month. Isn't it crazy that you only have to go door to door and let your
00:45:58
community know if you're a pedophile, but not if you're a convicted murderer? Serial
00:46:04
killer. A convicted serial murderer. He wasn't convicted for all of them. So yeah, just a killer.
00:46:10
Karen, do you have any updates on your story? There is. Well, it's like a corrections corner.
00:46:19
There's confusion in this episode about whether or not Paul Bateson had begun killing before he appeared in this movie in The Exorcist.
00:46:28
Like now they believe he began to kill men in 1977. This movie was filmed in 1972.
00:46:36
So it's a future serial killer that you're seeing in that movie. Not an active serial killer.
00:46:42
Oh, my God. Yeah. And then, so we also don't know where he is now, which is fun.
00:46:48
Right. So he served a 24-year sentence, and then he was given parole on August 25, 2003, from the Staten Island prison where he was being held.
00:47:00
He was 63 at the time. He was done with parole in 2008, and no one knows where he is.
00:47:08
There were rumors he was living in upstate New York. No one knows whether or not he's still alive. And people have tried to figure it out and look into it. There's people named Paul Bateson, like someone named Paul Bateson died in September of 2012, but they don't know if that's him.
00:47:24
Yeah, they can't. It seems the same. They can't prove it. That's 24 years and then paroled at a relatively young age. Then you're off parole and goodbye. Good luck.
00:47:37
And you're a true serial killer. Yes. This is not like, this is not some horrible...
00:47:42
Heat of the moment. Yes, it's not a passion, a crime of passion. It's not any of that. This is a person who
00:47:49
very intentionally stalked and killed men. I mean, to me, that's hiding in plain sight more than you being a serial killer that has
00:48:00
have been caught, that you being a serial killer that's been caught and released.
00:48:05
And good luck and God bless. Yeah. It's wild. It's truly crazy. It does feel like, I think when we talk about stuff like this, it's like, shouldn't there
00:48:14
be a separate class of talking about jail and holding people who literally can't stop
00:48:22
killing other people or can't stop raping other people? Like, shouldn't that whole thing go differently for them?
00:48:28
Because especially these stories that are from the 70s or earlier, where it's like they go to jail for eight years or something.
00:48:36
It's wild. If we're going to talk about that, let's talk about statute of limitations.
00:48:41
Hate them. All right. Well, now we're going to listen to Georgia's story on this episode.
00:48:46
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00:51:00
That's code CRY at G-R-U-N-S dot C-O. Hey, what's your murder joke? Hey, okay. So hiding in plain sight.
00:51:08
When you said that to me, I was like, oh, okay. I didn't really get it. No, I was excited about it because I was like, so you mean like serial killers who have day
00:51:16
jobs? like I didn't really understand it so I was like yeah that's kind of what I meant okay yeah and you
00:51:20
said yes so I was like what does that mean to me hiding in plain sight and to me that meant being
00:51:25
and I'm fascinated by this and how disgusting it is hiding in plain sight is being a child who
00:51:31
kills someone because that's plain sight is being a child and this this one is kind of so I have two
00:51:38
similar but very different child murderers that I've always thought about because they're so
00:51:43
fucked up. And the first one is, the murderer is Josh Phillips. And he killed Maddie Clifton.
00:51:53
So do you know this one? No. Yeah. This one is a kind of well-known one, but I just, it's
00:51:56
interesting because recently some new information came out about it. So basically in this kid,
00:52:02
Josh Phillips was born in 1984. He's from Jacksonville, Florida. And in July, 1999,
00:52:09
he was convicted of murdering his eight-year-old neighbor, Maddie Clifton. He murdered her in
00:52:14
November 98. He was 14 years old and she was nine years old. And what happened was Maddie
00:52:21
disappeared and everyone, the whole community started looking for her and couldn't find her.
00:52:26
And then the search ended a week after the disappearance when Josh Phillips' mother
00:52:32
went to clean up Josh's room and thought his waterbed was leaking, which A, don't get your
00:52:38
kid a waterbed be it's not leaking you're not like a bachelor what is that yeah way to give
00:52:45
your kid fucking back problems and send them to jail at the same time because what's more
00:52:50
comfortable the waterbed or the jail mattress i don't know um it's always the mother's fault
00:52:54
it's melissa you needed to get this together upon further examination she discovered that it was
00:53:00
maddie's body hidden inside uh hidden like underneath the bed and she and fucking kudos
00:53:06
to her ran outside across the street there was a police and was like hey this kid you know like
00:53:12
some parents i don't know if they would do that immediately or they would wait until he came home
00:53:17
and and talk i'm like what the fuck and then call the police she was like get the fuck you know
00:53:22
freaked out oh that is amazing so uh josh was arrested at school that day and he was held in
00:53:27
maximum security so here's what's so fucked up about it uh as a 14 year old he was tried as an
00:53:33
adult and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. Like adult killers who kill more people
00:53:40
in a more fucked up way and sexually assault them are not given such a harsh sentence.
00:53:46
And so according to Josh, what happened was that Maddie came next door to play with him.
00:53:51
And despite the fact that Josh wasn allowed to have people over when his parents weren home he let her in anyways The two were playing according to him the two were playing baseball outside Josh threw the ball and it struck Maddie in the eye causing her to start bleeding
00:54:07
And she started to scream. And Josh freaks out because his father is abusive and has a temper.
00:54:14
And if he finds out that Maddie's there, the fact that she's screaming and got hurt at his house,
00:54:18
he's going to be in a shit ton of trouble, including being abused. so he takes her to his room i don't know if i should even go into the details because i know
00:54:27
people who are listening have children and i don't want to well if you have children and you
00:54:31
are listening to a murder podcast but you're going to get sensitive yeah then uh i would go forward
00:54:37
one minute and 30 seconds thank you basically she died from stabbing uh and strangulation and
00:54:45
clubbing with a baseball bat overkill took her pants off but didn't but she wasn't
00:54:50
molested, which is odd. Also, I was reading something on Reddit that said that she didn't
00:54:56
have any, he said he dragged her inside the house, but there wasn't any dirt or sticks or anything on
00:55:02
her body, on her clothes, which would indicate that that had happened. So we don't really know
00:55:08
for sure. And that's a really, that's, I mean, he tries to get off easy by saying he hit her in the
00:55:15
head but then he goes on to over and tells how he killed her so it's not like he was if he was
00:55:21
lying about one of them why wouldn't he lie about both of them yes so he's it's he's never going to
00:55:26
be free she was nude from the waist down but it didn't seem and so the murder appears to have been
00:55:31
motivated by his fear of his abusive father it's just so fucked up do they know that's true or that
00:55:39
be another thing he could have been making yeah we don't know that either or even that maybe the
00:55:44
because I watched a couple episodes of, you know, true crime shows where the parents get interviewed
00:55:49
and maybe that was something they made up even to say like, oh no, the father was abusive and he was scared of him.
00:55:54
Like, let's give him an out. So we don't know if that was true or not. I think you're right.
00:55:59
Especially the stabbing part. Yeah. The stabbing is such a furious and personal thing.
00:56:05
He also choked her for 15 minutes. Oh yeah. That is a lot. And it's very hard to choke someone to death.
00:56:11
I think we all, if you're into true crime, you know this, it takes a lot longer and a lot more force than you. And that's when you're an
00:56:18
adult. That's when you're an adult, but she's also eight or nine. So she's probably a little
00:56:24
more fragile. I mean, the thing that fucks me up about this is that she's this little tomboy
00:56:31
girl. And she reminds me of me as a kid who wanted to hang out with the older boys and play with them
00:56:36
and be one of the guys. There's a video, there's a home video he made that the boy made of this
00:56:42
little girl Maddie and her sister playing with their new puppy. So like she trusted this kid
00:56:47
next door. She wanted to come over and was bugging him to play with her. And as a 14 year old,
00:56:53
did he have like a history of anything? Not mental stuff or no mental, no mental stuff.
00:57:00
The dad died in a car accident eventually. Okay. So in 2012, recently, the Supreme Court ruled
00:57:06
that automatic life without parole sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional. And that
00:57:13
ruling entitles Phillips to a resentencing hearing. Also, he's super hot now. Whatever.
00:57:19
That's just beside the point. But let's just put it out there. Let's just let everyone know that. Let's just get those people on Tinder aware.
00:57:26
Yeah. And there's not a ton of conversation about this murder on Ride It or anything like that. So
00:57:32
I just thought it was interesting. I agree that life without parole for a 14 year old
00:57:36
is insane. Even though I get it. He, I mean that stabbing a little girl to death and strangling
00:57:42
something happened to that boy. Yes. Something very bad happened to that boy, whether it's a
00:57:47
psychotic break, whether it was something to, he was terribly abused. Well, there was an
00:57:52
interesting conversation in Reddit and like the one little bit I was able to find where this,
00:57:56
this part, this commenter was saying, you know, when I was a kid, my dad was abusive and all you
00:58:01
wanted to do was not get in trouble. You didn't think about what would happen in the future if
00:58:05
you got caught hiding whatever it was that you were in trouble. Getting in trouble meant the
00:58:10
whole family would be terrorized. So you do whatever you can to not get in trouble that
00:58:16
moment. And it kind of made sense in a way that was like, she's not dying from this way. She's
00:58:21
not dying. I need to kill her at this point and get it over with because I'm going to get in
00:58:25
trouble for having had someone over, which is, you know, maybe he was a little, maybe he was
00:58:29
developmentally delayed but 14 year old 14 seems too old to think that killing someone was an okay
00:58:37
solution to that for sure also i feel like hitting someone in the head and being afraid
00:58:43
and this is this is just theory obviously he would just hit her in the head a bunch more times right
00:58:49
why not just smack her in the head with a baseball bat this the other part just gets so
00:58:55
violent up close crazy bloody i mean like yeah almost like wanting to see what happened what
00:59:01
happens you know well the pan the pants down thing is not good the pants down thing is a very
00:59:06
a very it's sexual no matter what yeah so even if he didn't touch her it's sexual yes
00:59:13
and stabbing is sexual in that you know in the psychosexual way yeah totally strangling too i
00:59:19
mean yeah oh man i mean and when you strangle someone you for the most part have to look at
00:59:26
them in the face yeah if you can fucking do that you got some major issues beyond you being scared
00:59:32
you're gonna get a belt whipping from your dad yeah and also i mean people always say this but
00:59:38
i'll just say it anyway there's you can hear the chorus of people who were abused by terrible
00:59:44
parents who are like, I would never kill anybody. Right. So it's not a plus B. Like I think that, that psychiatric element is absolutely has to be
00:59:54
there. Yeah. Cause here the other thing too You right A mother who would immediately run across the street like obviously it insane finding a dead body under your son bed Yeah But she knew she knew he did it
01:00:06
Like it wasn't, I don't know. She didn't go, let's let the cops tell us what happened.
01:00:11
She went, you have to go get my son. Her first thought was for the little girl and her family who was waiting to find where she was
01:00:21
and not for her kid or for the dad who, you know, because if you find the body, someone in the house did it.
01:00:29
You might not know it's your son. Right. Her first thought was that I found this, the girl.
01:00:33
Yeah. She's clearly the victim, not my son. That's amazing. Yeah. That's. It's fucked up.
01:00:40
There's another one too, but maybe I don't need to get into it. Do it, do it. It's just Eric Smith.
01:00:44
This, the red, the like little, the redhead kid. He killed his parents? No. Oh, okay. So Eric Smith, born 1980, he murdered four-year-old Derek Robey on August 2nd, 1993.
01:00:59
This is in Steuben County, New York. So Eric, unlike Josh, had been diagnosed by a defense
01:01:07
psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder, such a mental disorder, causing individuals to act out violently and unpredictably. He was a loner. He was tormented
01:01:18
by bullies. He was like a nerdy redhead. You look at him as a kid in court, especially these videos
01:01:27
of him in court, and he's just this... You can tell he's troubled just by looking at him. You
01:01:31
can tell he'd been bullied. You can tell he didn't like himself. And he basically said he took his
01:01:38
anger out on this little kid, this sweet little Derek Roby, who was riding his bike to summer camp.
01:01:44
and let's see Eric was riding his bike to summer camp and four-year-old Derek was walking alone to
01:01:52
the same camp he saw they saw each other he lured him into the nearby woods and then Smith
01:01:56
like overkilled the shit out of him like so this was on purpose like you know it's it's such a weird
01:02:02
thing it's like well these two different things where this kid said that he had to do it because
01:02:06
he hit her in the head and his dad was going to find out this kid just straight up wanted to murder
01:02:10
someone. And I remember hearing this thing about one of the many fucking true crime shows I watched
01:02:17
that Eric took a banana out of his lunch and smashed it into the little kid's face. And later
01:02:24
that night, the aunt or someone was babysitting him and got a banana out and the kid freaked out.
01:02:31
And I think that's how they figured out who it was. The kid freaked out over the banana.
01:02:35
so basically uh he smith said that he'd been bullied by older children in high school and
01:02:42
that is by his also by his father and sister and he confessed that he took his rage out on roby
01:02:47
but was worried that roby would tell so he killed him it's very odd it's so old to see when he did it so this kid was um eric was
01:02:58
I think he was 14 as well. Oh, wow. I just remember looking at pictures of him. Oh, you know why?
01:03:07
Because when I was doing those two boys that killed their dad, his picture came up all the time.
01:03:13
Yeah. And he looks so young. He looks, he's in a blazer. He doesn't look 13. He looks like he could be.
01:03:20
He looks like he's nine. 11 or 12. Yeah, nine. And he's got those ears that stick out.
01:03:24
Big old ears. And if you look at him now too, because there's some interviews with there's some jailhouse interviews with him now or he like he's
01:03:30
just so apologetic to the family he says i wish i could take the kid's place like he's very very
01:03:36
remorseful about it but even now he looks he looks like um remember the redheaded guy in the burbs
01:03:43
who lived who was one of the haunted that lived in the house he looks like him now it's just like
01:03:47
he doesn't look which is such i shouldn't judge someone by the way they look but you know well i
01:03:53
mean that's why people get bullied if you look different yeah definitely it's well so he's been
01:03:59
apologizing through in prison this other kid josh he has since gone on to he got his he got a degree
01:04:06
in parent and being a paralegal and he's been working as a paralegal helping other inmates
01:04:11
with their appeals so both of these people have like have gone on to try to make amends for their
01:04:19
their murder do they deserve to be in prison forever and i'm not i'm not asking like they
01:04:24
don't i fucking don't know right it really brings well it makes you come way off the like let them
01:04:29
all fry right which is i i like to feel that way just because it's very comfortable and like a
01:04:34
solution but it's the same reason that i don't i still can't give anyone a definite answer about
01:04:38
the death penalty right i just couldn't give anyone an answer right Wow, that's a rough run.
01:04:48
I mean, we just say it every time. We might as well have like just pre-taped and we roll that in of like, wow, that was awful.
01:04:55
Wow, that was bad. And also, wow, those stick in my head and always have. And I'll always think about them randomly all the time.
01:05:01
I think about all of these. Yeah. So are there updates for your story? Well, so I mentioned in the episode that in 2012, the Supreme Court ruled that automatic life without parole sentences for juveniles were unconstitutional. And so in 2017, the year after this episode was recorded, Phillips did get a resentencing hearing and he expressed regret for murdering eight-year-old Maddie Clifton.
01:05:26
He claimed not to understand what he was doing at the time. And a psychologist testified that he believed Phillips was truly remorseful and had been rehabilitated. But the judge ultimately resentenced Phillips to life in prison with an opportunity to have a sentence reviewed after 25 years. And he cited how heinous the murder was and an appellate court upheld the decision.
01:05:49
And so that review should occur sometime this year in 2024 which will be 25 years after Philip original 1999 sentencing I mean he spent his whole life in jail Yeah because he took the life of an eight Right
01:06:05
But I don't know. These are hard ones, especially because they're children. Well, and it's all hard because it's all contextual,
01:06:13
and it's easy to kind of sit over here knowing we'll never go to jail, going those people should do this or that.
01:06:18
Right, right. But for things like this where when you tell the story and you know what happened to that little girl,
01:06:25
So it's just like, yeah, what is right? There's also those things where like when kids kill, it's because incredibly fucked up things have happened to them.
01:06:35
Right. Or they just don't understand what they're doing. They don't understand the permanence of that.
01:06:40
Yeah. Or the Mary Bell story. Yeah. Where all the worst things had already happened to her.
01:06:46
She did it in that way of like someone's kind of doing this to me. It's just like.
01:06:50
Yeah. Mirroring someone's actions. Absolutely. Horrifying. And then for the Eric Smith case, he actually spent 28 years behind bars for the 93 murder of four-year-old Derek Roby when Smith was 13.
01:07:02
And Smith was finally granted parole in 2021 after being denied in 10 previous hearings.
01:07:09
He was ultimately released in February of 2022 at the age of 42 years old, and he now lives in Queens, New York.
01:07:16
It's like one is home and living his life, and one is still behind bars, and it's like, how are they different?
01:07:23
and like what makes one person more remorseful or more rehabilitated than the other.
01:07:30
It's just such a, I mean, it just depends on the judge, really. And the jury? I mean, are there people there that are also listening to all the facts
01:07:38
and then like weighing in on that? I think in this kind of case, it's a judge only. Maybe?
01:07:45
Hey, let us know, legal people. Yeah. All right. So let's, it's hometown time. So let's listen to the original episode nine, Hometown.
01:07:53
do you want to read us let's see why don't we do this so you want to read a favorite
01:08:00
hometown murder that we got emailed you can email us at my favorite murder at gmail your hometown
01:08:04
murder we'll read one every fucking week even though we get so many it's incredible i love you
01:08:09
guys and then maybe let's do a quick separate episode of other people's favorite on the facebook
01:08:15
page i said what's your hidden in plain sight murder oh yeah and i can read a few of those and
01:08:20
maybe we can read one or two hometown murders. So we'll have a mini episode that'll come out maybe
01:08:24
a couple of days after the regular one comes out. Great. Is that cool? I love it. Okay. So why don't
01:08:30
you read me a hometown murder, please? Okay, cool. This is also another, now I'm getting
01:08:35
obsessed with follow-up. I'm getting obsessed with like thoroughness and research, but I really
01:08:40
do genuinely love it. So this is a bit of a follow-up, but there's much more to it. Okay.
01:08:45
And it's from Lily K. We'll say. Hi, Karen in Georgia. Can't believe how much you sound like my friend Julie and I when we're together and really get going.
01:08:56
I've been obsessed with true crime for so long that I became a forensic psychologist.
01:09:01
You are a fucking badass, Lily. Why not do what you love? There's nothing else in the entire world I'd rather do.
01:09:08
And yes, you can intern for me sometimes. Yes. Way to go. I make my husband watch all the true crime shows
01:09:14
And now when he gets sick He's convinced I'm poisoned Like those deadly women Of centuries past
01:09:21
Anyway I just found your podcast And your call for hometown crime Then I saw you did mine in your second episode
01:09:29
Bummer but I decided not to listen to it yet And pretend you didn't do it So I can tell you about it
01:09:34
Paul Bernardo was mine And like I mentioned it affected me so much That I became a forensic psychologist
01:09:41
When I was in high school in Toronto, Toronto, the Scarborough suburb of Toronto rapes were going on.
01:09:50
It was terrifying. The bus company started letting women out at any point along the route at night, not just at stops so we wouldn't have to walk far from the stop to home.
01:09:59
Oh, wow. Our regular gym classes were canceled and we got a specialist in to teach us self-defense.
01:10:05
Holy shit. Also, there was a guy at my high school who looked more like the sketch of the Scarborough rapist.
01:10:11
than Paul ever did. And he said he was thinking of changing his hair when the sketch came out,
01:10:15
but he was afraid that that would actually make him look more guilty. Yeah, what?
01:10:19
And then she put in parentheses, it wasn't him, by the way. Okay, so just as the rapes started slowing down,
01:10:25
we heard about two girls go missing on the other side of Toronto. Did you know Leslie Mahaffey
01:10:31
was actually locked out of her house the night that she met Paul Bernardo? Horrible.
01:10:37
She was a rebellious teen and her mom picked that night to do some tough love on her
01:10:41
when she broke curfew and locked her out. And her mom locked her out. Can I just say my mom,
01:10:46
tough love was a thing. And my mom fucking did it. And it was the worst. In the 80s.
01:10:51
Yeah, kids, parents, please don't do tough love on your kids. It doesn't work. Yeah, that's right.
01:10:57
Sorry, go on. No, that's okay. Oh my God. So she locked her kid out. Her own mother locked her out of the house.
01:11:03
How much does that woman hate herself now? Oh, I can't imagine. I mean, that is,
01:11:07
if she's even still alive. That is, talk about the worst thing in the world. A child dying and then you, oh my God, that's a nightmare.
01:11:17
And then Kristen French was also portrayed as the good girl and Leslie as the more rebellious.
01:11:23
And Tammy, Carla's sister, was basically a forgotten. I know every single detail about this case, but in case you don't want to hear it, I'll get to some good anecdotes.
01:11:32
This was going on throughout my entire high school life, the rapes, the murders.
01:11:36
Then my last year of high school, they found out it was Paul and Carla. So of course I went to the
01:11:41
trial. I actually had this college boyfriend I wasn't that into and I made him go with me.
01:11:47
Poor guy. He was really upset about being there, but I loved it. Paul, oh, it says Paul was so
01:11:53
incredibly in court. I wonder what she meant. When they took his handcuffs off, he wouldn't just turn
01:11:59
his wrists. to have them removed. He would turn his entire body. It was as if he was trying to look every
01:12:06
person in the gallery in the eye. It was creepy. And then in college, a girl in my dorm started
01:12:12
dating a guy named Sam who looked by Paul. So whenever I had a couple of drinks in me,
01:12:17
I'd call him Paul. I love this chick. I also wrote all my psych papers in college on Paul
01:12:24
Bernardo or Carla, abnormal psych class, personality class. I wanted to know what made them tick.
01:12:31
And then she was the second one, but it's super long. Yeah. What a terrifying fucking thing to
01:12:36
go through high school. I mean, it took up their whole world. I mean, that was crazy.
01:12:41
And then to find out that a woman is involved. I don't know why, like, because you would see a
01:12:45
couple and you'd think I'm safe. It's the ultimate lure. We've talked about that. Yeah. Episode two,
01:12:50
was it? I think so. But that's the reason I love that she gave all those details because that was
01:12:55
the one where I wasn't, I was a little fuzzy on my details and that one. Well, that shit you
01:12:58
wouldn't know about. It's the same thing about watching The Simpsons is that it's information
01:13:03
that, you know, you, you watch the whole trial, but you could not have known what it was like to
01:13:07
be on the jury or what it was like in Marsha Clark's office when her boss was pissed about
01:13:11
the glove that they, it was their idea to have him try the glove on. Yeah. And also that like
01:13:17
being, I love that she loved it so much. She went to trials. Yeah. That's amazing. I can't tell you
01:13:23
how, like I've been asking people their hometown murders for years when I'm at parties and drinking
01:13:28
too much and calling people by murderers names. And this is like just feeding, this is feeding me
01:13:34
on a level that I can't even handle. You can really put away that voice in your head that
01:13:38
says you weird in any way It just simply not weird Because we have an inbox full of hometown murders I hope we haven gotten any like yeah it incredible Any what Sorry I don know Like I wouldn like you said someone asked us to be on their podcast and our Gmail and I wouldn see it because it just
01:13:53
buried underneath. That is, there's at least one person, but I think there might be more than one
01:13:59
person. We need to give them a different email address. Yeah. I love it. I wonder where Lily is now. How cool is that?
01:14:09
I know. What if she's like the lead forensic scientist? I don't know. Is there something more specific she could have become?
01:14:17
I don't know. Can you write us, please, and like give us a follow-up, please? Lily Kay, we need to know about your life now.
01:14:22
Yes, please. All these years later. It's the eight and a half year follow-up. Oh, my God. That would be so rad.
01:14:28
I mean, it's like Lily Kay was the first. We've had so many people either write in with their hometown or that we've met in person at the live shows that have told us that like they changed their major or they've always wanted to be like do forensic science.
01:14:45
Yeah. That idea that there would be all these people that kind of go into that line of work.
01:14:51
Yeah. Because they like true crime and true crime got popular in 2016 is so exciting to me.
01:14:56
That's one of my favorites is like I decided to do this and it's just it's unreal.
01:15:03
And also it's like I'm going to be a part of the solution. I'm going to get in there, use my brain and try to like advance what all of this is.
01:15:10
Totally. And, you know, a huge majority is women. So it's just like so proud that if we have any little tiny part of that, like what more do we fucking need from our lives?
01:15:20
We've done it. You know what we need? Huh? Better titles. You don't like Cutlery Nine?
01:15:25
Okay. Okay I do actually Yeah it pretty good For a pun I do Okay so now we going to tell you what titles we would pick now if we were naming this episode Not a pun but a quote from what we said during the episode
01:15:39
Okay, so one is You've Ruined Yourself. Love that one. I feel like that one's a pretty strong contender.
01:15:44
That was you talking about ruining the people versus O.J. Simpson, which we called The Simpsons, for listeners.
01:15:53
We were basically, spoiler, alerting it. Yeah, well, you've ruined yourself. I can hear myself saying that.
01:15:58
Sass. Then there's someone take a shot, which is you talking about the drinking game.
01:16:02
And then you actually say holy shit in the episode. So then you're... Take a shot.
01:16:06
Do it. And then I'm sorry I brought it up. Were you telling a story and how you feel sometimes after talking about these?
01:16:14
Like, I'm sorry I brought it up on the murder podcast. Yeah. Because like what we were thinking.
01:16:19
Yeah. That encapsulates a lot. It does. I mean, I'd pick any of those three. Yeah.
01:16:25
What would you guys pick? I think we've been posting them on social media, like vote for which one you want. And I kind of love that. And I've been voting, too. I'm not going to lie on Instagram.
01:16:34
A dirty vote? You're getting there and dirty voting? Because you can't see the answer of like the percentages unless you vote. So I vote for mine.
01:16:41
She wants to be a part of everything. How about that? Oh, there it is. We did it. You fucking did it.
01:16:48
We did it. It's another Rewind episode for all of you. Thank you so much for listening. You guys have really been supportive and here for this, and it's very exciting.
01:16:58
It is. We appreciate you guys so much. Thank you guys for tuning in. And stay sexy.
01:17:03
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Running a business shouldn feel like surviving a software group project One app for accounting another for inventory another for sales Thank you
01:17:42
no spreadsheets stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system
01:17:48
try for free today at odoo.com slash iheart radio that's odoo.com slash iheart radio
01:17:56
big transfer news today who's moving me to the couch with domino's best deal ever since they
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just added stuffed crust any pizza any toppings now with stuffed crust for 9.99 it's a long-term
01:18:08
contract with no release clause. Only $9.99? Yeah, that sounds like the move. I'm heading straight to Dom.
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Mmm, my nose. Price is higher for some locations. Excludes XL and specialty pizzas.
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Select this offer from 615 through 726. Online only. Size availability varies by
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crust type. Max 7 toppings, 6 for pan and New York style crust. Minimum purchase required for delivery.
01:18:28
Prices, participation, delivery area, and charges may vary. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and
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have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super
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easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan
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equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com.