00:00:00
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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room
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This is a story of greed, betrayal, and a fight for justice. Listen to Dr. Death the Cowboy wherever you get your podcasts
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or binge the entire series right now only with Audible. Goodbye. What's up, y'all?
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Summer's got a different tempo. Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plan turns into another.
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00:01:58
My favorite world. Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia. This is our new weekly episode where we bravely revisit 2016 and some of our earliest episodes and give you our two cents on the olden days.
00:02:21
We kind of talk shit on ourselves in a lot of ways, you know? We're not above that.
00:02:25
And we also consider who we were. who we are now, everything that's changed along the way and wherever we can.
00:02:32
We also provide case updates. So today we're rewinding to episode 10 from Friday, April 1st, 2016.
00:02:39
And this episode was called Murderous Tendencies. Get it? So go get your favorite manicurist, a door-to-door salesman, or a single cat lady
00:02:48
and invite them to listen along because now we can all be day one listeners. Okay. Are you ready to listen to the intro of episode 10?
00:02:57
I mean, why not? That's what we're here for. Right. Microphone check. Check one.
00:03:06
One, two. One, two. What is this? Check it out, y'all. This has to stay in the podcast.
00:03:14
Okay. A kind of a rap beginning. The night Karen and Georgia lost their minds. I have to say this would be it.
00:03:22
Is this episode 10? Oh my God. Hi. Happy 10th anniversary. What a gorgeous day for the two of us.
00:03:29
This is what? Wood? Is this a wood anniversary? This is the wood anniversary. I got you a sign that says,
00:03:34
um, would you murder me? Yeah, they carved it at the fair for you. So, um, God, did you ever think we'd get when we were recording the first one that we
00:03:49
would record nine more? I never thought we'd get this far. I mean, it is special.
00:03:54
It's a special thing. It was a thing that we talked about a couple times and then we actually did.
00:03:59
And then we just did it without ever talking about it again. We're just like, let's just fucking do it.
00:04:03
Which I think is like, that's how you do things. I think so. Don't overthink it.
00:04:07
No. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't over plan. Don't plan. Floss. And floss and wear SPF.
00:04:14
30 or higher. 30 or... You heard the song. You know what you're supposed to wear.
00:04:18
I mean, listen. Look. Look and listen. Look and listen. Wear your mother. Watch out.
00:04:25
wear your coat listen to your mothers Karen and Georgia listen to your mother listen to your mother
00:04:32
I'm Georgia I'm Karen and this is my favorite murder welcome to my favorite murder
00:04:38
uh x right that's 10 oh yeah x yeah little sexy throwing the sex in always always gotta be
00:04:46
sexy when you're getting murdered got to have to stay stay so what stay so stay So sexy. Say so sexy.
00:04:55
As a favor to us. Welcome back. We are highly trained professionals. We have radio backgrounds.
00:05:03
We have NPR backgrounds. We have PhDs. We both have PhDs in podcasting. We both have PhDs in podcasting.
00:05:10
You don't even know, you guys. What if we went to Yale for podcasting? We just haven't bragged about it yet.
00:05:15
We could be teachers there. We could. The first teachers. Where we're like, here's what you got to do with podcasting.
00:05:21
You got to record it. Listen, I almost graduated community college. I feel like I am ready for this. Yeah, you're ready. And I flunked
00:05:29
out of state college. I think you're supposed to do that, aren't you? I hope so, because I sure did
00:05:34
with flying colors. I think I got like a 0.12 grade point average. I mean, you know what is
00:05:40
really boring? Math. School. School and math. Listen, kids, drop out. No, don't do that. Listen,
00:05:47
we have insane influence over kids. I like the idea of like the kids that are listening. It's
00:05:52
like this eight-year-old being like, I'm not going to school because Karen and Georgia were like don do it Then they told me about terrible murder I going to be a podcaster one day Oh Jesus But there is someone on our podcast Facebook group who going back to school to become a forensic scientist because of
00:06:06
us. Legit said listening to this has inspired me. Yay, because she wanted to do it before
00:06:13
and then like... Yeah, she's always been in love with true crime and she said that
00:06:16
you guys helped inspire me. So we don't have to take all the credit, but there's fucking credit there.
00:06:20
Sounds like we get 75% credit. I feel like we're going to her graduation. I would completely go
00:06:25
I absolutely would that's so exciting to me it's the thing that we both would love to do
00:06:33
God bless your education do it, help people solve some fucking crimes you're probably not going to make a lot of money
00:06:40
but fuck money money is for suckers look and listen no, do it you make a decent amount of money
00:06:48
I think so listen, I've learned listen and learn you only need a certain amount and it's more than you're going to probably make
00:06:59
but do it anyways I have made no brag but this is true in times of my life I've been so in debt
00:07:06
that my father has told me to move home and I've also made so much money that I could have anything I wanted
00:07:12
and I was absolutely miserable when I had all the money and I had the best time in the world
00:07:20
when my dad was like seriously pack it in give up the dream I do think back about that because I'm in the same place where like I had to borrow
00:07:26
money from my mom for rent who also has no money. Yeah. Oh, that's the worst. Yeah.
00:07:31
And I've had a shit ton of money. And listen, life is easier when you have a little money.
00:07:38
Of course. But it's just as fun when you don't. And it's like freeing. Yes. You don't have as much weighing you down.
00:07:46
And also it's good to have, it's good to be challenged. It's good to have hardship.
00:07:50
But I'm obviously we're saying that with a grain of salt of like, I think life can be hard.
00:07:55
And then we're not saying. And we're both talking about in the past five years. It's not like when we were in our fucking twenties.
00:08:00
I'm talking about the last five years. I've been like. Yeah. I've had this experience recently where I was money did not make me happier.
00:08:07
All I could figure out to do with myself was order cashmere sweaters off of J. Crew.
00:08:10
And then I just ended up giving them to my cousins because. Yeah. They ended up being this weird symbol of like, I don't, I'm not about that.
00:08:18
I don't really give a shit about that. I wish I could give all the millions of meals I've eaten that I've paid so much money for.
00:08:24
Those are worth it. Oh, yeah, I guess. The first thing that made me think of was like amazing French bread.
00:08:30
Oh, like I've eaten millions of dollars in carbs. There's no way that's not true.
00:08:35
Well, because you do it professionally. I do it professionally and I love carbs.
00:08:39
And then, yeah, you do it voluntarily. I do it voluntarily. You have very good taste.
00:08:42
Thank you. The thing is to instead of wanting money, you want to be doing for a living what you actually
00:08:49
really love. That's why it's great she's going back to school. I didn't know that was a thing.
00:08:52
I really didn't think that would be a thing for me in my life. That you'd be able to figure out
00:08:56
what you loved? I didn't think I could do it for a living. So I would never state what I loved
00:09:01
because it felt too cocky to be like, I want to be a writer or I, yeah, I want to be a little,
00:09:10
I want to be on camera or whatever the fuck it is. It just felt stupid to say that I wanted it.
00:09:15
Yep. So you can just tell yourself. You don't have to tell anyone else. Right. But also you get it just as much as anyone else should get it.
00:09:23
Like you're as deserving as anybody. My grandma's saying was bigger dummies than you.
00:09:27
Yeah. And that applies to fucking everything. Yeah. I promise you someone way more stupid than this girl has become a forensic scientist.
00:09:35
A bigger dummy. 100%. Right? Yes. So she can do it too. She can not only do it, she can improve the field.
00:09:41
Absolutely. Because she likes it. Speaking of, I'm reading a new book. Okay, let's hear that.
00:09:46
And by that, I mean, I'm listening to a new book because I'm obsessed with audio books.
00:09:51
Okay. I am listening to a book called No Stone Unturned. It's the true story of the world's
00:09:57
premier forensic investigators. Remember, I think episode one, we talked about NecroSearch.
00:10:03
Yes. It's a book about how NecroSearch came to be, which started with them burying pigs
00:10:10
to study decomposition and what happened to bodies. But what's so cool about it that I didn't realize is they all come from a wide range of backgrounds from, I'm reading this,
00:10:21
geophysicists to cadaver dog specialists to chemists, rank and file cops. And no one is
00:10:27
allowed to address anyone as other than their first name. They can't say doctor or so. No one's
00:10:31
no elitism. None. Nice. And everyone is just as important. And everyone's it's the book is like
00:10:39
a testament to socialism. I don't know. It's really good. Well, because like we've talked
00:10:44
about a bunch of times where like when cops, when the culture of policing gets in the way of solving
00:10:50
crimes, because people are like, oh, we're going to keep that. Our, our, um, what I was going to
00:10:56
say, our district, our, you know, um, department gets that, you know, case or you, you see it all
00:11:01
the time in law and order. And you don't want someone's help and you don't want, you don't,
00:11:05
you don't share information. It's the whole thing that happened during the Zodiac killing and he
00:11:08
killed in all these different counties in the Bay areas. Nobody should have been sharing information.
00:11:13
Well, this is really cool because their only goal is to find buried bodies. That's what the necrosearch is, is buried bodies.
00:11:21
Or, I mean, so corpus indelicti. Not delicious bodies? Indelicti. It's such a rad book if you're really into forensic science and all these fields and how, you know, just forensic detectives.
00:11:40
It's a good fucking book. And they're just trying to help solve cases. It's like a new way, right?
00:11:44
In the beginning, they're looking for one of Ted Bundy's victims based on what he told them where he hid the body.
00:11:51
And so a bunch of them get together to go try to find this girl's body. And there somebody there that like that kind of tulip only grows if da That kind of tulip only grows if this If you take a photo when the sun is rising or the sun is setting you see indentations in the grass that you won see otherwise
00:12:08
That means that the soil has been disturbed. Give me that book! It's so good. The part about the bloodhounds who find bodies is like adorable and incredible.
00:12:19
They're like such good fucking dogs. They're very stupid also apparently. Oh, what?
00:12:23
But you know, they do these little things like they furrow their brows when they're sniffing
00:12:28
and that's to store the scent in their brows. And when they need it, they unfurrow their brow and they get the scent again.
00:12:34
They do all these little weird things. I mean, this is the kind of shit that the book tells you about.
00:12:38
And it's written really well. And there's also updates because it was written like 90 something, 91.
00:12:43
Oh, that's amazing. My dog is half hound. Oh, I love hounds. And she's hilarious because they look different.
00:12:51
Their face has changed so much. Like when she is excited, her face looks one way.
00:12:56
And then when she's like concentrating, she looks totally different. That's really funny.
00:12:59
I just heard that their lip flaps are long and they go over the bottom lip because it
00:13:04
collects the scent in their mouth. Like it gets it all up in their nose. Oh, when their ears, because their ears flap, it kicks up dust so they can smell the dust,
00:13:13
the dirt and the dust. Wow. What the fuck, right? Yeah. So it's called No Stone Unturned.
00:13:18
It's on Audible. I highly recommend it. That's amazing. what's your book that you're listening to or reading reading do you know how to read i i can
00:13:26
read and um i just bought it's the book called lost girls and it's about that fucking serial
00:13:32
killer on long island that baffles me okay so i joined the facebook page by the way everybody
00:13:37
oh yeah karen no no you didn't join the facebook page you joined facebook i like i went thank you
00:13:45
I went back to Facebook. This was, I made a very dramatic exit on Facebook in 2011.
00:13:52
Fuck everyone. Like one of those. Well, nothing had actually happened, but everybody,
00:13:56
it was, I was in a writer's room and everybody was talking about how irritating Facebook was,
00:14:00
but they were also talking about how they were addicted to it. And you wanted to one up everyone.
00:14:04
And well, I'm so, such an addictive personality that like, I can't not look at things and I get really,
00:14:11
you know, you want to know, did somebody try to get ahold of me? And it's all that craziness.
00:14:15
I completely understand that. And it makes me live in a world that doesn't exist.
00:14:19
So as everyone was talking about it, I was recognizing every single thing everybody in the room was saying.
00:14:24
And I just really fast and without overthinking it, just went and deleted my account.
00:14:28
I did that with Twitter in like 2009. Oh, you did? Do you know how many fucking followers
00:14:33
I'd have at this point if I hadn't done that? I know. A shit ton. A shit ton. But you wouldn't be any happier
00:14:38
because followers are like money. I said I like money. Oh, that's right. Right, right, right.
00:14:44
so yes I rejoined Twitter but don't tell anyone I went to fucking camp with I think someone
00:14:53
with your last name joined the My Favorite Murder podcast Susan? no Sarah anyway I was scared it was your niece
00:15:03
because I was like she's too young for this Nora no Nora Nora's last name's gonna well I won't say her last name
00:15:09
but she wouldn't my sister doesn't let her on social media You know, as of this very moment, we are about 50 people away from 2000 followers.
00:15:18
Holy shit. I'm not going to say followers because that sounds condescending. Group members.
00:15:22
Yes. And they're the fucking, it's the best group. It is so fun to go on there. I have, so my book, somebody recommended it on that page.
00:15:31
And then I listened to, I think it's, it's a podcast called, I think it's called Crime Garage.
00:15:39
Have you heard that one? It's two guys. and they were talking about the they had updates on this murder which i had heard about but i wanted
00:15:47
to hear the updates are there updates there there were updates of just like new things that they had
00:15:52
found but i realized as they were talking about it that i needed to know what they were talking i
00:15:56
needed to know more details and then um uh somebody posted whoever posted on the discussion page about
00:16:04
this book when i read the reviews it was like this is an amazingly written book it's funny because
00:16:09
I've never wanted to, there's something about that case that I, I can't wrap my head around
00:16:13
the fact that that person is still out there. And that one of the murders of the woman who ran away from that guy's house, there's a
00:16:20
woman who went to, to dance, quote unquote, at a party house and freaked out and ran away
00:16:28
and was then found dead. And like the answer is in there somewhere. Yes. That's what bothers me about that so much is the answer is so obviously in from when
00:16:37
she died when she got to that guy's house. Yes. And that's exactly what the Crime Garage guys
00:16:42
are saying. I hope that's the name of that podcast because that's what they were. I listened to it
00:16:45
as I was in the grocery store one day. I'm almost positive it is. But that basically the cops haven't
00:16:51
interrogated the person who had that party because he's crazy rich. They were just like,
00:16:55
no, he has nothing to do with it. But didn't she also go to some guy's house who like takes in
00:17:00
wayward female? Like one of the doors she knocked on was some dude who takes in wayward females.
00:17:04
well I've only read at this point I heard their podcast and I've read like the first 10 pages
00:17:09
but this book is written it's giving you the backstory of each of the bodies found
00:17:15
so they're not bodies found they're these young women who have these rough upbringings but like
00:17:20
these mothers who busted their ass all their life to get their girl to get her to one better place
00:17:26
and then she was like but I'm really pretty a few bucks yeah that's what kind of in the book I'm
00:17:32
I know Stone Unturned, it was like about the Denver serial killer. He was like, they were like, prostitutes started showing up dead.
00:17:38
And it's like, can't you just say women? Right. You can't just say women started showing up.
00:17:43
There's such an innuendo when you specifically say that prostitutes started showing up dead.
00:17:47
Well, that's exactly right. And you can feel yourself care less than if they were like a 16 cheerleader from this high school Some blonde Like we really do have a caste system They live a more what the lifestyle we were talking about last week Oh high risk They live a higher risk lifestyle
00:18:05
So it's more like you get into some random dude's car who wants to pay you for sex.
00:18:09
There's a much higher chance you're going to get raped and murdered, but that doesn't mean you deserve
00:18:12
it. But I think it's that thing we say all the time where it's just like... Stay sexy? Ultimately, we're talking...
00:18:19
We're talking so much about these victims and the question mark above their head
00:18:26
how much have we talked about this fucking serial killer who has gotten away with killing
00:18:32
over 10 women. These bodies are just dumped next to this highway. And there's children too. Isn't there like someone's daughter
00:18:39
or something like that? I don't know. Because I've only started this book but I mean
00:18:42
it's fascinating and it's like this killer is just behind a wall somewhere. Just totally protected.
00:18:49
He knows. It's so weird to know that like I mean I wonder if there's this part of him that's like I know the
00:18:54
secret to this and no one else does and that's exciting somehow. Well and if it's like the jinx where if they're paid off
00:19:02
or they're so rich because they're out you know it's out by Jones Beach it's out like way
00:19:08
Is that upstate New York? Yeah it's Long Island it's like way up Long Island though
00:19:12
Really nice area. Crazy everything's gated you know it's all that it's all and a bag of chips
00:19:19
I don't know it's fascinating So anyway, I'm excited about that book and whoever recommended it on the discussion page.
00:19:26
High five. I can't wait till we find out who he is. I know. And this is good. We're going to have an emergency episode.
00:19:33
That we will have to like in the 3 a.m. get the call and be like, get your podcaster out because we got to record.
00:19:41
Get your podcaster out. Okay. A lot to unpack here. Yeah. Where do we start? Money is for suckers.
00:19:50
Yeah. Yeah. We definitely talk shit about money, which, you know, let's not ignore that.
00:19:55
If we're going to talk shit, we can talk shit. We can't ignore that. Me saying I was once so broke my dad told me to move home.
00:20:03
Yeah. It hadn't been long before that episode. It was in the recent past of that episode.
00:20:08
Definitely. Like, honestly, Vince wouldn't have moved in with me three months into our relationship
00:20:12
if I didn't need someone to pay half the rent. Like, I think about that now, about how quickly my relationships moved because I couldn't afford
00:20:19
rent on my own. Sure. And it wasn't a bad decision and we would have done it eventually anyways.
00:20:23
But three months in and he was looking for a place and I'm like, we really fucking like each other.
00:20:27
Can I pay $500 a month instead of, you know, $11? So like, you know, let's not ignore it.
00:20:34
This podcast has done wonders for our not moving home with our parents. And we appreciate it and I can't believe it.
00:20:41
I mean, it still hits me all the time and it's just wild and so fucking crazy. If I had thrown in the towel when my dad told me to throw in the towel.
00:20:50
we wouldn't be here right now. Listen, don't listen to Jim. Please don't. Look and listen, which comes up in this episode.
00:20:56
I mean, there's some classics that come up in this episode. Definitely. Also, on the last episode, I talked about dirty deleting people.
00:21:04
But actually, on this episode is when I tell everybody I've rejoined Facebook. Yes.
00:21:09
Because I had been on it, could not handle myself on it when I first was on it. And so actually, technically, I started dirty deleting after episode 10.
00:21:19
Maybe you snuck on, though, before and we didn't know you were on it. Oh, like I didn't have a profile?
00:21:25
Yeah. I don't know. Would I have been able to be a moderator? If you ask Stephen on the side.
00:21:29
Wait, he wasn't there yet, though. Stephen's still in the womb. We're still pre-Steven.
00:21:32
Stephen's in the womb still. Stephen's off trying to grow out that mustache somewhere in Los Angeles.
00:21:37
Oh, my God. Okay. And then, yeah, so we do look and listen. And we do lock your door. The F word doesn't come in yet.
00:21:44
And then also fuck politeness is there throughout the episode. Yeah. A lot of gems.
00:21:49
A lot of gems in here. Also, we talk about the Lost Girls, Gilgo Beach murders. Yes.
00:21:56
And then we talk about when this guy gets caught, that we should do an emergency episode and all that talk.
00:22:04
And Rex Howerman was arrested and charged with three counts of first degree murder and three counts of second degree murder in 2023.
00:22:13
Unbelievable. And I think that was like, I think we may have talked about it at the time.
00:22:18
Yeah. At the time. Yeah. But the idea that back then we were just like, I love it.
00:22:23
And it's like, little do we know what's going to happen with Golden State Killer.
00:22:27
Totally. That is actually a thing that's going to happen. I mean, it's funny because people get frustrated when I cover cold cases sometimes, but it's like, yeah.
00:22:34
Do you mean me? I think you've seen. The point. The point. Yeah. And now this is like, I mean, this is insane.
00:22:41
Like what in the next eight years. Yeah. What's going to happen? Right. Zodiac? What's the one that you just want to know the answer to?
00:22:50
Zodiac, probably, right? I mean, Zodiac would be satisfying only because I'm from the Bay Area.
00:22:55
Right. There's that connection. Yeah. Jean Benet, I'll take. Just a solid kind of this is actually what happened that night.
00:23:03
Yeah, a period. I guess I also say we need a new word for prostitute. Right. Sex worker wasn't part of the lexicon yet.
00:23:11
I think listeners wrote in. And they're like, there is one. You should be saying this.
00:23:14
That's right. And we're just like, oh, my God, then we will. And sorry. Yeah. And it's perfect.
00:23:18
Yeah. Love that. Yeah. Love that we could get that word kind of. And it's like kind of known now that like you don't use the word.
00:23:26
I mean, I cringe when I hear it on like, you know, a TV show or something. Yeah.
00:23:30
Yeah. Also, regarding this, Karen talks about the Crime Garage podcast episode about this, but
00:23:36
it's actually True Crime Garage. We're big fans. They're still around. Check it out.
00:23:40
They're one of the OG True Crime podcasts. They are. They definitely are. Should we get into your story? This is one, I mean, you said on the last episode, but Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm is a story where I'm like, I would love to know what that actually was.
00:23:52
World War II murder mystery? Like in a tree? In a tree with creepy like little talons.
00:24:00
...assassments happening? Yeah. Like, let's find this one out, you guys. Okay, listen to it now, and then we'll talk about it after.
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For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com. Okay, you're going to go first this week?
00:25:45
Yeah, I'll go first this week. So we're ready for our favorite murder. Are you ready?
00:25:50
All right, so this week I picked a topic and then I hated it. Um, so I made, I said, Karen, what's your dream topic?
00:25:57
Do you remember what the topic was before? It was vintage unsolved. Oh, right. Then I got really angry and was like, I can't do this.
00:26:04
And I said, Karen, have you picked yours yet? And you said, no. What's your dream topic?
00:26:08
And then I just didn't answer you because I was like, M-Y-O-B. Is that? Mind your office.
00:26:15
No, no, not at all. You said, uh, you said weird murders. Yes. Which like basically is we've done so many already.
00:26:23
I mean, we've also done like kids killing kids. We've done so many things that like we're the category idea.
00:26:30
Yeah. We're just trying to organize our thoughts. Totally. It's trying to help us like go down a path that's not an infinite path.
00:26:39
Yes. Okay. But also like what murder isn't weird. Oh, totally. It's kind of an aberration just in it.
00:26:46
But you know. Well, I thought there was a couple that I wanted to do. and I also don't want to do one that everyone
00:26:53
like there's something about the maybe it's just the Facebook group that like everyone in that fucking
00:26:58
group knows every murder. Yes. They know everything which is like so fun but I don't want to disappoint them. Yes.
00:27:05
Same. You know what I mean? So I picked one. I was going to do the Tommen Shude case. Yes.
00:27:10
You know what I mean where it's an unsolved case of an unidentified man found dead
00:27:15
in 1948 in Australia and in his he walked up on the beach and in his pocket was a piece of paper with the phrase
00:27:22
Taman Shud, which means meaning ended or finished in Persian printed on a little scrap of paper.
00:27:28
And they don't know who he is, where it came from, what his deal is. It's a fascinating case
00:27:32
if you don't know it, which you probably, everyone probably knows it. And it's still unsolved, right?
00:27:37
Yeah. Okay. And so is this one, the one that I picked as my favorite word murder, called
00:27:42
Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm? Is that yours? No, no, no. But I just listened to a different podcast about this.
00:27:48
It's also called the Hagley Woods mystery sometimes. This is a good one. So in April 1943, which is obviously in the middle of World War II,
00:27:57
four boys from Stourbridge in the UK were poaching when they came across- Can you say that one more time?
00:28:05
Stourbridge, UK. They were poaching. They came across a large witch elm. It's spelled W-I-T-C-H or W-Y-C-H in different postings.
00:28:15
I can't really tell. I think it's W-I-T-C-H. And they found a witch home on an estate belonging to a lord.
00:28:22
They thought it was a good place to hunt birds' nests. And so they tried to climb into the tree to investigate and they found a skull.
00:28:30
And they thought it was an animal. And then they saw human teeth and hair attached to this.
00:28:36
And they had found a human skull. So they were like, here's a great idea. Let's not tell anyone because we'll get in trouble for being on the lord's land.
00:28:43
Boys. If you ever find something, say something. or you look fucking suspicious.
00:28:49
Your parents won't be mad at you for being on someone's land if you find a skull.
00:28:54
Everyone knows lords are dicks. Look, we've all dealt with asshole lords before.
00:28:59
We've all trespassed on land that belongs to lords. And if you find a body, you should tell someone.
00:29:05
So the youngest kid, it was like, of course it's the youngest kid. He's like, get here, mommy.
00:29:10
Mommy. Mommy. And he told his parents and the police checked the trunk of the tree.
00:29:14
They found an almost complete human skeleton, a shoe a gold wedding ring and some fragments of clothing
00:29:21
and then on further investigation a severed hand was found buried in the ground near the tree
00:29:27
the body was examined by Professor James Webster and he established that the skeleton was a female
00:29:36
who had been done for at least 18 months at the time of death must have been around
00:29:40
October 1941 he discovered a section of taffeta lodged in her mouth, suggesting she had died from asphyxiation.
00:29:51
And I wrote, or from fashion. In my notes. She died from the 80s Oh Georgia Oh Georgia go for it Go do it Do it The measurement of the trunk which the body was placed in
00:30:06
made him think that she must have been placed there still warm after the killing
00:30:09
as she could not have fit in once rigor mortis had taken hold. Rigor mortis, I am fascinated by it.
00:30:15
It's just, oh my God. Because it sets in, but then it goes away, right? I think it goes away after like 10 days,
00:30:21
but I feel like you can also break it. Oh, with enough force. Listen, everyone put on the Facebook group whether or not this is
00:30:30
true or not. Yeah. What do you know about rigor mortis? Clearly someone knows something.
00:30:33
That's a good podcast too, by the way. So it's our offshoot podcast. Someone knows something about rigor mortis.
00:30:42
Okay. So the woman's murder was in the midst of World War II in the UK, which clearly had a lot
00:30:48
of action going on. So it hampered the investigation. Police could tell from the items found
00:30:55
what the woman looked like, what was so many people reported missing during the war.
00:30:59
They really couldn't tell, like find out who it was. They did a nationwide search
00:31:03
of dental practices, which came up with nothing, which I feel like in 1941, the nationwide search
00:31:09
of dental practices was not very thorough. Yeah, you're like calling up on one of those like
00:31:13
crank wall phones of like, you know, Yeah. Hey, it's Shrillbridge 39478. Have you seen a cap
00:31:20
on Insizer 3? We don't do those here. Yeah. Bye. And it's also a barbershop. I love our dental.
00:31:30
They're British people that talk like they're from the Bronx. From a movie from the Bronx.
00:31:35
This is good radio. Again, just the facts here, you guys. That's all you got. The facts and only the facts.
00:31:42
This is a real boring podcast. so people eventually kind of forgot about the woman in the tree until
00:31:48
the graffiti started what an ominous fucking line this is the beginning of Banksy
00:31:54
so someone wrote who put Lulabelle down the witch elm in graffiti and then someone wrote
00:32:04
the Hagley Wood Bella then someone wrote who put Bella in the witch elm and the graffiti
00:32:11
appeared on walls throughout the West Midlands which is near where it happens, seemingly
00:32:15
by the same hand, which is a fucking I love handwriting analysis so much. Me too.
00:32:21
It was last painted onto the graffiti was last painted onto the side of a 200 year old obelisk, which
00:32:27
is like spooky as fuck. Yeah. On the 18th of August, 1999 in white paint. That's some
00:32:33
what was the that's some Toy and Be Tile shit. Yes, that's right. It just continues on. What the fuck?
00:32:42
So let's see. Okay, a couple of theories that the hand buried close by could have been a hand of glory,
00:32:51
which I actually talked about recently on Slumber Party. It's a dried and pickled hand of a man who has been hanged,
00:32:58
often specified as being the left hand, or if the man was hanged for murder, the hand that did the deed.
00:33:05
And they, at old European beliefs, attributed the great powers to a hand of glory
00:33:10
combined with a hand. Basically, they made a fucking hand of someone who was hanged into a candle.
00:33:15
And so when people would break into someone's house, they would bring it with them for good luck.
00:33:19
That's pretty much what it was. So it was a cultist type of thing, which is like, look, there's a hand buried nearby.
00:33:25
What does that mean? I feel like the glory part is a bit of a misnomer. It's horrifying.
00:33:31
It's a disembodied hand. The hand of horrifying. They put the wicks on the tip of the fingers.
00:33:39
Like if someone broke into my house with that, I would run. So of course she would get away
00:33:42
with it. Take all of my jewels. Bye. I'd be like, bye. Okay, bye. Later days. So I read this part from, this is
00:33:55
all from like Wikipedia and random like websites. This is from the unredacted. It wasn't
00:33:59
until 1953 when journalist Wilford Jones started to write about the old case that interest was revived
00:34:06
and he would soon receive the first solid lead in nearly a decade. This is in 1953. There was a
00:34:13
letter signed only Anna offered new details of what had happened to Bella. According to the letter, Bella, I love
00:34:19
this, had been murdered because of her involvement with a Nazi spy ring operating in the Midlands in the early
00:34:25
1940s. Yes. You know I'm obsessed with World War II and Nazis. Love them. Hundreds of German spies were captured in
00:34:33
Britain during the war and the Midlands would have been a valuable source of intelligence
00:34:37
because of its prevalence of munitions factories. Wow. Really fucking cool. So the journalist-
00:34:42
You never think of England as having spies like that. It's like, you think of, because it's an island over by itself.
00:34:48
Yeah. How did they get there? Well, this is one of the theory. No, no, no. I didn't write this down,
00:34:53
but this is one of the theories is that she parachuted in and somehow ended up in the trunk of the tree.
00:34:58
I call bullshit on that theory. Maybe someone, maybe she parachuted in and they found her and killed her
00:35:04
and put her in the tree. the idea that you would parachute in to be a spy and you would parachute down into it into the
00:35:11
forest the trunk of a tree yes you are the dumbest unluckiest spy who's the worst at
00:35:17
parachuting listen she's in a plane she grabs she gets scared so she grabs a handful of her taffeta
00:35:21
stuffs it in her mouth she doesn't scream too loud on her way down hits her arm her hand comes off
00:35:27
the force buries it in the in the ground this is all absolutely feasible it's doable it's doable
00:35:34
Wait a second. What material? Taffeta is like prom dresses. Taffeta isn't parachutes, right?
00:35:39
No, taffeta, I feel like it's an underskirt material. Oh, okay. Or maybe it's a lacy collar.
00:35:45
Okay. Like a high, like Victorian lacy collar. It's not like nylon. We're not talking, it's a different thing than parachutes.
00:35:51
Yeah, that would be cool. I thought I had a theory, but... You know at the same time though these stories are passed down so long that someone could have said it taffeta and that stuck True Which is the problem with these old crimes is like they just get told so many times that these things come back
00:36:06
So I'm going to say that she had parachute nylon stuffed in her mouth. Let's change the story to work for us.
00:36:12
We're slipping the script. Okay. So then the journalist got a letter from this woman, Anna, claiming Bella had died after getting involved in a World War II Nazi spiring.
00:36:24
and she said, finish your articles on the witch elm crime by all means. They're interesting to your readers,
00:36:29
but you will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts.
00:36:36
That's a great way to say someone's dead. We're now called my favorite beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts.
00:36:42
God, earthly courts. I know. The affair is closed and involves no witches, black magic, or moonlit rites.
00:36:48
Basically, this witch is like, I know what fucking happened. Shit. Do you think that witch,
00:36:52
did you say witch or bitch? that bitch knows what happened no no witches black magic or moonlight rights like she's saying it
00:37:00
wasn't a witchcraft oh because it is in the forest i know creepy yeah and she's found in a fucking
00:37:06
trunk of a tree like that's that's um some what was the the show recently with um
00:37:12
amirya harrelson no woody harrelson oh true detective that's a true detective shit right
00:37:16
there season one baby season one fuck season two season two is slop although we did see colin um
00:37:23
Feral at the movie theater the other night. And I almost told him your performance in
00:37:29
True Detective season two was masterful. The only saving grace of that episode season.
00:37:35
And my girl Rachel McAdams. I do love her. No? She just bores me. She just talks like this all the time and she bores
00:37:43
me. I know, but she has perfect like, she always has a good bob. Yeah. She has a great bob.
00:37:49
She has a nice tall forehead. I'm jealous of her face. She loves a tall forehead.
00:37:52
I really do because mine is like a three head. It is the shortest. All my bangs are an atrocity.
00:37:58
Nothing works. Nothing works. You should shave the front part of your forehead. Like an Edwardian.
00:38:05
Just get it waxed and it'll look like. That's a good idea. I know. Oh my God, I want to barf.
00:38:09
Like how you used to cut your Barbie's hair off in the front for a bang. And then here's bangs.
00:38:13
They'll grow in. You know, I used to do baby bangs like in the early 90s when I was a big drunk.
00:38:17
Like little foofies. I can't tell you how my face looked like a straight up full moon.
00:38:22
I look like the blood moon walking around working at the gap. You talk about your photos from when you were younger so much,
00:38:28
and I've never seen them. I'm dying to see them. I've scrubbed the internet of them.
00:38:34
Please don't scrub my brain of them. Okay. Sorry. No, this is the best part. After subsequent correspondence,
00:38:41
Anna revealed herself to be a woman named Una Mossop and told the full story. She said her husband, Jack, worked on a local munitions factory,
00:38:48
again, the munitions factory, in the early 1940s, and come into some money after meeting a mysterious Dutchman.
00:38:54
He later admitted to Una that the Dutchman was a Nazi agent and Jack had been passing him information
00:39:00
about the local industrial sites. Listen, you asshole. Yeah. This is why we fucking lost the word.
00:39:05
No, I'm kidding. We actually won the word. Good news, Georgia. I'm totally kidding.
00:39:12
Let's see. So, which in turn was passed to another agent posing as a cabaret performer at local theaters.
00:39:18
the Midlands had been bombarded by the Luftwaffe in the early 40s and such information would have
00:39:23
been invaluable to the Nazis to target their raids when they would have done the most damage to
00:39:27
Britain's war effort. One day Jack met his contact at a pub close to Hagley Wood. He was arguing with
00:39:33
a Dutch woman. This Dutchman was arguing with a Dutch woman. He ordered Jack to drive them both
00:39:38
out to the Clint Hills but the argument had grown extremely violent and the Dutch agent strangled
00:39:44
the woman in the car. Fearing for his own life, Jack helped carry the body into the nearby Hagley woods where the pair
00:39:49
buried it in the hollow of an old tree elm. That sounds reasonable. Yeah, that's
00:39:55
believable. I mean, it sounds insane, but like a reasonable explanation. Also, sorry to say,
00:40:00
but it's kind of a good idea to bury a body inside of a tree. Totally. It's like
00:40:04
now how they're doing burials when you can be like, I want to be a pod and you can get buried
00:40:11
in the woods now. Oh, right. but it's against your will but it's like this only the only difference listen stick with me
00:40:19
it's an eco burial but you don't have a choice in the matter um this totally makes sense to me
00:40:25
and i was gonna say something else and i forgot so yeah oh oh i feel like there's so many murders
00:40:33
that are solved because an ex-girlfriend a jilted ex-lover ex-girlfriend is like
00:40:37
hey fyi here's what happened totally i didn't say because i was scared from it which i totally
00:40:42
believe like you eventually tell yeah i mean because that guy had a lot to lose if he was like
00:40:48
passing info treason if she said anything yeah he he probably told her i'll kill you if you i mean
00:40:55
like yeah she thought he would die she didn't want him to die either she loved him yeah and then he
00:41:00
slept with her sister and she was like listen fuck this dude is that the reason why she said
00:41:04
okay so una's husband was apparently so traumatized by the brutal murder of Bella that he had a nervous breakdown
00:41:15
tormented by horrific visions of a woman's skull in a tree. And he was institutionalized in 1941
00:41:21
and apparently died later that year. So that sounds totally plausible and feasible.
00:41:26
And it sounds like it happened immediately. Like he went through the trauma and then just freaked out.
00:41:31
It turns out nobody knew this, but Nazis are assholes. Oh, yeah. They should have mentioned that in the 40s.
00:41:38
So that America could have gotten involved in that world. Oh, get impal in a call.
00:41:44
I said it. You heard me and I said it. It's like everyone from that era is dead.
00:41:48
I don't care that you said it. It's true. There's like one 90-year-old veteran that's like, how dare you?
00:41:54
I came here to listen to a motor podcast Not a rant against the Luftwaffe Yeah So that sounds I like that theory Again I like it
00:42:05
and it fits very well and it could have changed a lot and who knows if it's true,
00:42:09
but it's a good one. Yeah. There was a second possible victim about being a prostitute.
00:42:15
Again, prostitute. Yeah. Some woman who sold her body for sex. She was forced to.
00:42:22
Right. Stated that another prostitute called Bella who worked on the Hagley Road
00:42:26
disappeared about three years previously. So, you know, that could have been the same woman too.
00:42:32
True. I like that one. So yeah, you guys want to, there's actually a good photo of the skull.
00:42:39
If you go online, it's called the, so this is the Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm
00:42:42
or the Hagley Woods Mystery. You can see some cool photos from back then. Okay, now we're back, 2024.
00:42:51
Okay, so update-wise, it's been 81 years since she was found in 1943. No major updates.
00:43:01
There was a facial reconstruction of Bella's physical features based on photographs of her skull done by British anthropologist Caroline Wickinson.
00:43:09
But it didn't lead to any new insights. And the location of Bella's body is now unknown.
00:43:15
So a DNA test is not going to happen. I have a book recommendation based on this story, actually.
00:43:21
Oh, really? Yes. It's a World War II murder mystery that also like jumps into the front, jumps to the back.
00:43:28
It's all over the place. It's so good. So if you're interested in this story, I highly recommend the book The Lake House by Kate Morton.
00:43:35
It's all British and shit. World War I, the Blitz in London, like just really juicy and good.
00:43:42
I'm literally going to take this recommendation and read this book. This is the book I wanted you to read because I want to know if you can figure out what the surprise twist mystery is.
00:43:50
Oh, okay. I'll do it. Okay. Kate, what's the author's last name? Her name's Morton. Kate Morton. She's like an incredible writer. It's so British.
00:43:58
Great. It's like the thing of like something crazy happens in the past and there's a big secret
00:44:02
and the person in the future right now is trying to find out the secret before the matriarch dies
00:44:07
or because they found a book or a photo that like leads them back to their, you know, lineage.
00:44:13
And so they go back to the old like castle farmhouse and find the answer. Like, it's just that kind of thing.
00:44:18
And, like, memories start to resurface in a way that they fucking don't, you know?
00:44:21
Yes. It's good. Okay, great. Nice. I might read a book this year. You know, those people that are like, I read 85 books this year.
00:44:30
Well, to be fair, I listen to this. It's just a different thing. Counts. Counts.
00:44:33
Okay. So let's get into your story about, wow, a madman. I mean. Richard Chase, a.k.a. the Vampire of Sacramento.
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00:46:20
I've known about this one for a while, and I've been trying to jam this one in. Like when Georgia said, what do you want to do?
00:46:26
And I was like, weird murder. It's like the first thing I thought of for this. But once I started really reading details, I remembered, oh, that's right.
00:46:34
About 10 years ago, I watched a documentary about this and boned myself out so hard that
00:46:39
I just kind of put it out of my mind and never thought of it again. Oh, God. I'm already having nightmares from the Facebook group, so this is going to be fun.
00:46:46
Right. And I'm sure most of the people on our Facebook group know this guy too, because he's
00:46:50
not a top tenner, I don't think, but he's up there. It's Richard Chase, the vampire of Sacramento.
00:46:56
And I know that once again, I'm talking about Sacramento. No, there's so many murders that happen in Northern California.
00:47:04
Yeah, there really are. There's a lot of country. There's a lot of space, wild space.
00:47:09
It's almost like hillbilly-ish in some areas, shockingly. I hear what you're saying about my upbringing, but fine. I don't care.
00:47:17
No, I just mean that like there's farmland. Yes. There's a lot of space for people to really do what they feel at night.
00:47:24
Making meth. We're just making meth, tons of drugs. Yeah. There was a lot of acid up there.
00:47:30
Really? That's where the... I'm also listening to right now. Have you ever heard that You Must Remember
00:47:35
this podcast? Yes. I'm listening to the Manson murders one because so many people... There's a woman on our Facebook
00:47:42
page who mentioned it and was like is anybody else listening to this i'm going crazy and people
00:47:46
all talked about it but i had already heard i think patten was talking about it on twitter
00:47:51
because michelle mcnamara talked about it on uh no maybe she didn't but she talked about a murder
00:47:56
in like laurel kenya that might have been related to manson murders and maybe She mentioned it.
00:48:00
I'm not really sure. Oh, okay. It's a great podcast. And it's like, talk about like a fucking high end.
00:48:05
Yeah. Music cues, all that shit. So it's like our podcast. It's just like this one.
00:48:10
Brilliantly written, concise, effective. And like, they don't, they take it seriously.
00:48:15
They really, they don't make fun of murder. We're not making fun. I know we're not.
00:48:21
Okay. I can't wait. Your notes look. I'm not because I almost barfed in my car. I was sitting,
00:48:25
I got here a little early outside Georgia's apartment and there's never parking on her street.
00:48:30
So I was like, basically my address, bring your knives over to. So I was like a block and a half away sitting in my car in the dark.
00:48:39
It's okay. Next time, pick me up and I'll walk with you. Oh, okay. I never thought about that.
00:48:43
Yeah, but you were like, once I got up here, you're like in your slippers. Yeah, but I can put shoes on so fast.
00:48:48
Tiny. Okay, good. I'm glad we worked this out on the air. I will. Cause I'm gonna next time.
00:48:54
I will. I don't want you to walk. Normally I never have that feeling. I've lived in a major city by myself for fucking 25 years.
00:49:00
And tonight in writing about this, this serial killer in the dark in my car with my iPhone light on sitting there.
00:49:09
And then a guy walked right by my car and he was talking either on the, I'm sure he was on the phone.
00:49:14
It scared me so bad that I was like, oh, this, I got to get out of this car and walk up the street.
00:49:20
You might've just had a fucking intuition about him. Let's say you did. Let's say you're super intuitive and you're like, and he's a murderer.
00:49:26
Oh, I'm definitely intuitive. I think we all know that you and I are very intuitive.
00:49:31
I think I just found the Zodiac killer and he takes the bus near your house. I just hear Karen down the street yelling,
00:49:37
So the vampire of Sacramento is a man named Richard Chase. And he did all of his killings in one month,
00:49:50
but his whole life led up to that month. He had a terrible abusive mother. By the age of 10, he had the McDonald Triad,
00:50:00
which is, as we all know, arson, bedwetting, and cruelty to animals. That's called what?
00:50:06
The McDonald Triad. I didn't know that. And that's a theory. Now, people... Yeah, I know each of those, but...
00:50:12
When they are combined, a lot of people look at that. And some people say that is a direct link to serial killers,
00:50:20
but actually that's been disproven. And what it is a direct link to oftentimes or more often, I should say, is abuse.
00:50:28
Brutal abuse of parents. And that's what Richard Chase had. What are they? Bedwetting?
00:50:33
Bedwetting, arson, and cruelty to animals. Fuck, man. So it's like if you have a proclivity to this, usually it's the bedwetting is the first if you're being abused.
00:50:43
That's uncontrollable. Because it's uncontrollable. And then the rage is arson and cruelty to animals.
00:50:48
So it builds if it doesn't stop or if, you know, the kid has no work. Oh, that hurts me in my heart.
00:50:53
I know, it's terrible. So he, this, I was telling, I was eating lunch with April Richardson, our friend, and telling her about this.
00:51:01
And she basically goes, oh, this guy had no choice. This guy was going to be a serial killer no matter what.
00:51:05
Because this, all of these things in his early life do add up to it. And when he was in high school, he had girlfriends and stuff, but nothing ever lasted because he couldn't maintain an erection because it turns out he was only sexually aroused by the killing of animals or the stabbing of people.
00:51:28
Okay, so the killing of animal erection probably started first, obviously. He accidentally got an erection one time while he was killing a mouse.
00:51:38
You know, it's the thing with like a foot fetish where it's like your genitals get rubbed by a foot.
00:51:44
It's by a beautiful woman, you know, whatever. And then you associate boners with...
00:51:50
Yeah, it gets imprinted on your brain or whatever. But I think they say with stuff like this, this is like crossed wires.
00:51:56
This is bad wiring. I'm already seeing someone writing, you associate boners with feet.
00:52:01
Like, you know, the people on the Facebook of him writing this, these beautiful quotes,
00:52:05
like the hilarious quotes we say. Oh yeah, and the calligraphy. Like with a beach photo in the background, he associates boners with feet.
00:52:13
With feet. It happens all the time. Okay. So, of course, then he gets in, it's the 70s when he's a teenager and older.
00:52:23
So he's super into acid. and then he starts and so they're never really sure if it's drug induced psychosis
00:52:32
or if it's paranoid schizophrenia later on they're like he definitely had paranoid schizophrenia but
00:52:38
if you do enough LSD you can actually induce trigger your schiz if you were going to have schizophrenia 50-50
00:52:46
and you do a bunch of drugs it's going to happen more likely I don't know about that
00:52:51
maybe somebody on Facebook What if we just keep doing that? Maybe someone else can be a part of this research.
00:52:59
But they were talking about drug-induced psychosis is basically a parallel thing.
00:53:05
And it would happen at the same time because people who were starting to experience paranoid schizophrenia would try to self-medicate.
00:53:11
If they weren't on medicine, then they would drink, they would get high on pot, and they would do acid.
00:53:16
And this was the 70s where nobody thought it was that bad. It wasn't that big of a deal.
00:53:20
So to kind of quickly synopsize, he basically, he started going to the doctor all the time and telling the doctor that somebody stole his pulmonary artery because his heart was stopping.
00:53:37
Oh no. Yeah. And that also his cranial bones were moving around and coming out of the back of his head.
00:53:43
And he ended up shaving his head because he was so positive that this was happening.
00:53:47
What a terrifying thing to be sure of. Yes And if you having that organically in your brain but then you doing acid Oh dude I mean horrible Not like Karen and I have ever done acid multiple times but No not in the least It does that I just stared at my friend hand
00:54:05
until it was my hand. Because it's the most fascinating thing you've ever seen in your life. Yeah, it's crazy. But
00:54:10
I did it one time and I was like, I'm never doing that again. No, it's just chemicals. Don't do that. Don't do it.
00:54:16
It's not going to be... Anyway, he also was sure that his blood was turning to powder. Oh.
00:54:22
So he had a lot of medical issues that he was going to bring into the doctors a lot of the time.
00:54:26
The doctors, pretty sure that he was, because that's actually the age in men, like late teens is when the signs of schizophrenia start showing.
00:54:37
So he was kind of going through that. He started accusing his mom of poisoning him.
00:54:42
And so his father got him an apartment and moved him out of the house. Wow. Basically said, you can't be here anymore.
00:54:46
Go be alone. Do whatever you want to do. Yeah, exactly. um so event so he was alone and it turned out he gave himself blood poisoning because
00:54:57
and this is where things are going to become a serious bummer so let's do it he was injecting
00:55:03
himself with rabbit blood he was injecting rabbit blood into his own veins this was he was these
00:55:09
were all ways he thought he was going to help his powdery blood or his his skull bones moving
00:55:15
around or whatever the fuck thing he thought was wrong with him. So he was, they don't know how,
00:55:22
if he was buying rabbits or catching them or whatever, but he was drinking rabbit blood,
00:55:29
mutilating rabbits, and then he started injecting the blood into his room. Oh my Lord.
00:55:33
So he involuntarily was committed to a psychiatric hospital. I want to go to psychiatric high school.
00:55:41
Everyone just keeps asking you how you are all the time. Now, here's the weird thing, though.
00:55:48
Not that there are very many psychiatric hospitals around anymore, but at this place, the staff was scared of him.
00:55:56
That's how fucking freaky this guy was. And at one point, they told a story of the nurse going into his room and there was blood all over his face.
00:56:05
And she was like, what's going on? And he said, oh, no, no, I just cut myself. But it turned out they found some dead birds on the outside his window.
00:56:12
He had been catching birds and drinking their blood. what the scary fuck yeah so they start calling him dracula and they're all freaked out well the
00:56:20
doctors legit had like power no thanks you know he was list that mind melt he was list that i feel
00:56:28
like you'd hold out for human blood wouldn't you bird blood you get whatever you can get
00:56:32
bird blood though i mean it's pure man they're so dirty so they get him on they start to they
00:56:39
balance him out on psychotropic drugs, right? And they finally, after a year, are like, you're free. You're not going
00:56:45
to be a danger to yourself or others. See you later. And they release him from the hospital.
00:56:50
His mother, upon his parents, I think the word they used in the article was recognizance.
00:56:55
I don't think that's the correct word, but it's basically under their supervision.
00:56:59
His mother immediately weans him off the medicine because she's a smart lady. So, um,
00:57:05
she gets him off the medicine, gets him his own apartment again. Now this time he has...
00:57:09
She's the person who abused him to begin with. Yeah. She's not smart. She's probably a bit crazy herself.
00:57:15
She cares little about his well-being. Yeah. Clearly. She probably just wants him to get away from her.
00:57:20
And this was also the person that was like, did I say that part already where he was accusing her of poisoning him?
00:57:24
Right. So he's just like, she knows she's in danger. Yeah. The idea of her weaning him off the medicine, though, God knows what that was about.
00:57:33
I can kind of imagine, and it's idiotic. It's frightening. so he's out on his own again so he ends up sharing an apartment with three roommates
00:57:41
and he is so fucking weird that they demand he moves out apparently he was drunk high and on acid
00:57:48
all the time he would do stuff like nail himself into his own room and accuse them of like trying
00:57:55
to get into his room and invade him and all this stuff so finally there and he also was always
00:58:01
naked or just walked through the room naked so no no one can have anybody over yeah so
00:58:07
finally they're like you have to move out and he refused so everybody else moved out that's how
00:58:12
creepy he was okay so he's in this house by himself and uh that's when he went into full
00:58:20
vampire mode so he started they don't know buying catching whatever but he was constantly getting
00:58:26
animals mutilating them drinking their blood he had a thing he would do where he'd put the animal
00:58:32
blood in a blender with some coke and blend it up and drink it soda like coke soda yes
00:58:37
Coca-Cola. Yeah, like a little smoothie pre-jamba juice. This was late 70s. Otherwise, he would have been fine.
00:58:45
He would have been a millionaire. And so these were all the ways he thought it was going to keep his heart
00:58:52
from shrinking, which was his main fear at this point. I mean, to be honest, blood is good for you.
00:58:58
Eating blood is... You get a lot of iron. Iron, yeah. If you have iron, poor blood. But it's not
00:59:03
going to help your cranial bones from moving out of the back of your head. You're a pregnant woman.
00:59:08
If you're a psychopathic fucking. And if you are a pregnant woman, you feel like you might have iron poor blood.
00:59:13
Instead of mutilating a rabbit, you can just have a Guinness. Drink one Guinness and you're done.
00:59:18
Or have an iron, chew an iron tablet. Yeah, you could do that too. Don't drink blood.
00:59:22
Iron a bunch of shirts. Go on. I've never heard of this one, so I'm passing it on.
00:59:26
Oh, okay. So the killings begin on December 29th, 1977. And right the month before
00:59:39
The killing start He has found There's a place called Pyramid Lake That's kind of by Lake Tahoe
00:59:44
And it's this weird Kind of salty lake And it has these weird rock formations That are pyramid shaped
00:59:51
And apparently This guy drives out there And there just Richard Chase Standing out there Naked covered in blood And they like what the fuck So they call the sheriff or whoever And they find Richard truck has a bucket of blood in it
01:00:07
And the whole inside is covered in blood. So they arrest him. But then they test the blood and they find out it's just cow's blood.
01:00:15
So they let him go. Goodbye. No charges. No charges. Because apparently that's, you're allowed to just cover yourself in cow blood if you so choose.
01:00:25
all that's fine yeah and just be standing imagine if you were like let's go out to pyramid lake and
01:00:30
take some pictures what a gorgeous day and you get out there and that fucking apparently he was like
01:00:35
5 11 and weighed 145 pounds oh so he's like emaciated and he's a ghoul he looks like a ghoul
01:00:42
or what if i was like karen do you want to go out to the pyramid lake and put art cow blood all over
01:00:45
ourselves and i'd be like yeah and then we'd be like oh my god richard what are you doing here
01:00:50
I knew it was meant to be. So a month later, he was basically walking around and driving around his neighborhood
01:01:01
and he just starts shooting people. So he does a drive-by and he ends up killing 51-year-old Ambrose Griffin
01:01:08
who was out in his driveway. He was helping his wife bring groceries into the house.
01:01:14
He dropped and she thought he had a massive heart attack because it was such a strange thing.
01:01:22
And then she only found out when he got to the hospital and was pronounced dead that he had actually been shot twice.
01:01:28
Later that... I know. And he, you know, later that... And he was a father of two.
01:01:33
It's very sad. Later that day, a 12-year-old boy riding his bike reports to the police
01:01:38
that a guy drove by in a brown Trans Am and shot at him and missed. Jesus. So he's wilding.
01:01:46
He's... Richard is doing some crazy shit. he's wilding again you won't get professionalism
01:01:55
like this in any other podcast that's right where we're just like whoa oh my god dude
01:01:59
okay so then January 23rd about a month later this one's rough it's a bummer so this is where it turned
01:02:09
for me where I was like look how weird this guy is eating rabbits and drinking their blood
01:02:13
but that of course just was the beginning for him to go on and do that to people.
01:02:19
So if you didn't like the rabbit part, you're really not going to like this part.
01:02:23
Everyone liked the rabbit part. Everyone doesn't love a good rabbit killing. So this is the part that's a super bummer.
01:02:32
What he would do is just walk around a neighborhood and try doors. So, yeah. And he told the FBI agent who interviewed him
01:02:43
after he was arrested from jail that he would walk around. And then if a door was locked,
01:02:48
he interpreted that as that he was not welcome and he would move along. But then if he would get to a door that was open,
01:02:55
he would go into the house and just see what would happen. So there's a story of him as he,
01:03:00
on this same day, was trying doors and he walked up, a woman tells a story of seeing this young man
01:03:07
who looked super crazy and creepy, walk up and try her back patio door and it's locked and she's watching him do it.
01:03:14
he walks over to the window and tries it. It's locked. And then he walks to her front door and she walks up to the front door
01:03:20
like, what the fuck are you doing? He just stares at her and then walks away. If I saw someone
01:03:26
trying my back door and my window, you shit a brick. I would scream. That's terrifying. It's horrifying.
01:03:34
So then he went on his way. I'm pretty sure she called the cops because obviously she told that
01:03:38
story. But he went on and the next house he found, the front door was open. Oh no, lock your doors guys.
01:03:44
Yeah, always. So he goes in and a pregnant 22-year-old woman named Teresa Wallin.
01:03:52
Teresa, run. Her body was found disemboweled, drained of blood. And there was a yogurt cup sitting next to it that had been filled as if he was drinking out of it.
01:04:07
And she was raped and mutilated and her organs had been taken out of her body. what a sick fuck yeah it was super crazy like jack the ripper style insanity and the worst part
01:04:21
is that um her husband came home from work and their dog was on the front porch and the lights
01:04:29
were out but the stereo was on so he goes in like what the hell's going on and he thinks oh it didn't
01:04:34
say oh probably the doors that's what i'm picturing something hideous um he thinks there's oil in the
01:04:42
front room like he doesn't understand what's happening and then he finds his wife's body
01:04:46
is horrifying how fucked is he for the rest of his fucking life it's over it's over it reminds
01:04:51
it makes me think of like the end of the zodiac remember the movie the zodiac when they interview
01:04:56
the guy in the airport yes who had been in the car with the girl who got shot yeah that actor is a
01:05:02
great actor his name's jimmy i can't remember his last name but he you know the girl from um
01:05:08
Heavenly Creatures who was it was Kate Winslet and then the girl with the brown hair.
01:05:15
I'd heard that he was someone before so that reminds me that I can't remember. He's a great actor and he was on
01:05:20
all of this is meaningless. I can't say the right names. And before the cops later found that he
01:05:28
had put a bullet in her mailbox as he was walking up to that door. That was significant to him somehow.
01:05:34
In his crazy fucking... I mean, the idea of seeing that gore and guts and blood and being not affected enough to stick around
01:05:45
and keep doing it. Yeah. There's kind of some crazy like dissociative shit going on.
01:05:49
Yeah, he's out. He's gone, gone, gone. Like most people see someone get cut and see blood
01:05:53
and are like I can deal with this Or like a broken bone They like I can deal with most of us Yes Can handle it But he not even it like that thing of like you know sociopaths don have like consciences
01:06:06
but he's psychotic. Like this is, he's not there. So he leaves that house and apparently he had gone into another house.
01:06:16
The cops find out later. He'd gone into another house and had gone in because the door was open
01:06:23
and had ransacked it and peed into a drawer of freshly laundered baby clothes and then defecated on the little boy's bed,
01:06:32
on their child's bed. They walk in, he runs out the back door, the husband chases him
01:06:37
and he can't catch up to them. So that was just like a fucking near miss that they weren't in the house.
01:06:43
That husband is a hero. They were just coming home. Yeah, thank God no one was there.
01:06:47
And same day as he did that murder. So he was just walking around doing what he wanted and doing that.
01:06:56
He wasn't even aware of it that he needed to go hide. Right. You know what I mean?
01:07:00
Right, exactly. No, no, no, not at all. Like he knew once the guy was chasing him,
01:07:04
but no, he didn't. He was walking around with like bloody clothes and didn't try to hide it.
01:07:09
That's not mentally competent to stand trial if I've ever heard it. Yeah, no, he's out of his mind.
01:07:14
He was totally fried. So once this murder and this horrible scene is found, they call the FBI in
01:07:20
and the FBI makes a profile and it's like young, unemployed, mentally ill and it's like they undernourished
01:07:29
like they had him. Has been in lockup before, like they know specific shit. Yes, the way
01:07:34
the FBI does. So then the next murder is 36 year old, and this one's rough, Evelyn Roth
01:07:44
and her 6 year old son and his friend Daniel. and now the good news is that in my mind they were all shot so he he didn't torture them or
01:07:56
make them suffer but i'm you know i see what you're saying i totally see what you're saying
01:07:59
i mean as compared to some hideous ones that we talk about how many times have i said oy vey and
01:08:05
jesus this whole like i can't stop saying that because this is hideous but yeah it's basically
01:08:10
she was upstairs taking a bath while her friend daniel who is 51 was in the house like watching
01:08:17
the kids while she was up there. He shoots that guy. He goes upstairs and shoots her in the bathtub,
01:08:24
mutilates her, rapes her body, eviscerates her, does weird shit with her entrails,
01:08:30
all that creepy stuff. Then the little kids each just got shot in the head. And then there was a
01:08:37
baby that when the cops got there, they found a pillow with a bullet hole through it. The playpen
01:08:43
had blood in it and the baby was missing so yeah so now the the cops and if fbi and everybody are
01:08:50
like this is we've got like a serious serial kill i mean obviously they already knew that but
01:08:55
this one was it was in i mean the you can go online and read the details but the details are
01:09:01
just a bummer and it's just more of what i'm saying it's awful it's really awful um but here's
01:09:08
what i kind of find fascinating and this is when i think this is a part i freaked myself out on
01:09:13
is so they get a call. The cops get a call from a girl. Let me find her name here.
01:09:20
It's her name is Nancy Holden. And Nancy Holden tells the cops on the same day as all this other shit happened,
01:09:29
she was in the town and country shopping center, which I know where it is. Shut up.
01:09:33
In Sacramento. That's so exciting. Off Watt Avenue. It's this area and it's like,
01:09:38
Sacramento is just this big, I've said it before, but it's just like this big wide spread out.
01:09:42
It's like all these suburbs smashed together. And shopping centers and stuff. Shopping centers and shell stations and Taco Bells.
01:09:48
That's all I remember. So culture everywhere. Just culture as far as I can see. It's like New York, but flat.
01:09:55
So they're in the Town and Country Shopping Center, which is one of those full on 70s,
01:09:59
like a shopping center that looks kind of Adobe-ish. Like Lightwood. Yes, Lightwood.
01:10:04
There's a lot of Ivy. Dude, I'm from Irvine, like in Orange County. That's all it was.
01:10:07
You know it. A lot of Archway, Walkway type of thing. Yeah. All the signs for the stores have the same.
01:10:13
Right. It's like wood cut signs. Yes. There were like dark wood and white paint.
01:10:17
Yes. Oh my, Irvine. That's Town and Country Shopping Center. Jesus. So this girl, Nancy Holden, is in a store.
01:10:23
And this freaky guy walks up to her and says, were you on the motorcycle when Kurt was killed?
01:10:31
And 10 years before, her boyfriend, Kurt, was killed in a motorcycle accident in high school.
01:10:37
Holy shit. And so she's looking at this person and she goes, who are you? And he's like, it's me, Rick Chase.
01:10:44
And then she's like, she remembers Richard Chase from high school as being this like studious, cute guy.
01:10:51
And now she's looking at this fucking, again, ghoul. And he has, he's wearing a sweatshirt with blood on the front of it.
01:10:58
And I think, I think barefoot is what she said. But apparently he's trying to talk to her and she's just standing there like getting the worst vibes from this guy.
01:11:07
So at one point he turns around and buys something and she just gets the fuck out of the store.
01:11:11
Good for her. He follows her out because he wants to get a ride from her and he's still trying to talk to her.
01:11:16
She gets in her car, locks the door and drives away, like peels out. This girl's smart.
01:11:20
She's super fucking smart. And then she calls the cops and says, here's the experience I just had.
01:11:26
The guy's name's Richard Chase. And that's what leads the cops to his apartment.
01:11:31
when the cops get to his apartment they stake it out for a little while they go up and knock
01:11:38
they can tell he's in there he won't come out so they just go back and sit in their car
01:11:43
and watch finally after hours he comes out holding a box he's got that same bloody sweatshirt on
01:11:49
he's got no shoes on bloody feet the baby's in the box? they arrest him no there's weird random shit
01:11:56
and I think the gun was in the box but they go into this apartment And it is covered in blood.
01:12:02
The walls, the ceiling, it's putrid. Like the smell was apparently horrible. He's got three blenders going, like not going,
01:12:10
but three blenders with all of his crazy shit on the counter. And they said it was just, it was a horror show inside.
01:12:18
Inside the refrigerator, there's body parts. It's like Dahmer style, pre-Dahmer Dahmer.
01:12:25
What a sick fuck. Crazed. And it was basically this person who's in full psychosis left alone to just go as crazy as he needs to go.
01:12:34
Schizophrenia doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go fucking murder. No. I don't even necessarily.
01:12:40
It doesn't mean that's going to happen. That this person, that was his predilection is to fucking go after it.
01:12:45
This is like the perfect storm of an abusive childhood, paranoid schizophrenia, untreated, drug use.
01:12:55
Acid, man. He went down the worst possible road and then drove himself 20 times further down that road.
01:13:02
Did they find that he had killed anyone before this murder spree or was this it?
01:13:07
No, but there were stories of him like walking through people's backyards. There were lots of the creepy story of I saw that guy.
01:13:14
He tried my door or just somebody like there was one of just him standing in someone's backyard lighting a cigarette.
01:13:21
Like the creepy, creepy factor is all in there. So, of course, he goes to trial and ultimately he got I didn't really write down the details because I started getting so bummed out about this.
01:13:34
It doesn't matter that you're talking about the murders. It's yeah. Right. And but here's what I like that FBI, the FBI agent that created the the profile of him went afterwards and interviewed him at San Quentin.
01:13:47
love this and he explained that it wasn't his fault because nazis and ufos were trying to kill
01:13:54
him and he needed to kill and he needed to drink the blood and he needed to eat the organs and do
01:13:59
all this stuff to to stay alive himself he's so mentally ill and then in one of the articles i
01:14:05
read there was two different kind of versions of the story but i love this version then after
01:14:10
explaining all this which is just batshit psycho bullshit he reaches into his pockets and pulls out
01:14:17
a whole bunch of macaroni and cheese and gives it to the fbi agent and goes they're trying to poison
01:14:23
me i need you to go test this oh my god and so apparently the story at jail was that uh the guards
01:14:29
and everybody said that all the um other inmates were so freaked out by him that they were constantly
01:14:35
telling him to kill himself. And so in 1980, he had stockpiled all the antidepressants
01:14:42
he was supposed to be taking and he just took them all one night and killed himself.
01:14:46
Fair enough, man. Yeah. I appreciate that he did that. But most important question,
01:14:51
was the macaroni and cheese spiked? It was totally poisoned by alien Nazi blood and a little rabbit.
01:14:59
I hate macaroni and cheese today Do you think that it was Shit Be careful How do you feel Crazy No like I love macaroni and cheese I love Nancy Holden
01:15:09
She is the key element in the town and country shopping center. She's the one. Yeah, no, we had the Woodbridge Village Shopping Center.
01:15:19
It's a bad one. Karen, how are we going to rid you of this? I feel like you need like a palate cleanser.
01:15:26
I feel like I should start drinking again tonight. after 25 years. I don't, you think that's the key?
01:15:31
Yeah, but not on my watch, man. Yeah, just watch me drink four beers. It's literally on my watch.
01:15:37
I'm watching. I demand that you watch me drink 29 beers because I can do it. I just want to prove to you I can do it.
01:15:43
And then you turn into him. And that's the night. Also, and I'm sure everybody's seen it,
01:15:48
but the pictures of him, there's part of me, and this is the sick part of me, where you look at pictures of him and go,
01:15:53
he could have been so cute. It's kind of hot. It's kind of like Nancy Holden being like,
01:15:57
this guy, he was cute and hot. school. He has a kitty. And now he's super scary. Yeah.
01:16:02
But it's kind of sexy. I mean, blood on the ceiling, blood on the walls. Blood on the ceiling, blood on the walls.
01:16:08
There's a song here. Oh, hey. Okay. I thought of something. We're going to do, we're going to start doing
01:16:14
live shows. Yes. Every month. Can you do the theme song live every time we do a live show? You know
01:16:20
what's funny? I think I can, but I made that up just in the excitement of you and me recording that first podcast.
01:16:28
I went home and just like started playing that. I would have to really take some time to figure out what I was playing.
01:16:34
How about it can be different? You can just fucking freelance and do whatever the fuck you want every time.
01:16:38
Okay. Okay. Wow. That was so chilling and creepy. And lock your door, please. I mean, that's the thing about Sacramento.
01:16:51
It just really, it has this tendency to draw or pull out of people. The grossest, weirdest, most fucked up things.
01:17:01
It's, you know, it's horrifying. It's so funny. I think you think of Sacramento the way I think of Orange County.
01:17:06
Yeah. You know? I think so. I suffered there a lot. Okay. I did a lot of suffering.
01:17:11
There you go. But then I also had some nice beers. And some of my oldest friends are the people I met in Sacramento.
01:17:17
There you go. So there's no major updates on the Richard Chase case. Yeah. The Richard Chase case is a story of a person with unmedicated, untended to mental illness to a degree that just goes out of bounds.
01:17:32
Yeah. And is a true argument for reinstating government mental health facilities, services, all those things.
01:17:42
People need it. This is just like a horror movie of what can go wrong if they don't have it.
01:17:48
Right. But in the story I told, I was a little bit vague on who was killed on January 27, 1978 in Evelyn Murroth's home.
01:17:59
So I'll be very clear. The victims that Richard Chase murdered that day were Evelyn Murroth herself who was 38 years old her son Jason who was six years old her nephew David Ferreira who was a baby and Daniel Meredith who was 51 he was a family friend
01:18:17
So just for the clarity of the people who were lost that day in something that was like insanely tragic
01:18:24
and just worst case scenario of any of these kinds of stories that we talk about.
01:18:28
Like an absolute horror story slash like outlier that you just can't help but live your life differently because you've heard it, even though it's just such a random act and rare and, you know, locking your door isn't going to do anything to ensure your safety.
01:18:44
But right, man. Well, I mean, I think our specialty is oversimplifying things and then yelling them at people because we have anxiety.
01:18:52
Yes. That's you just fucking summed it up so hard. There it is. It only took us this long to figure it out, but it's like, it makes me feel better if I just yell at you and say, get in the car, immediately lock the doors.
01:19:06
Totally. Why wouldn't you? Don't. Yeah, totally. Totally. Literally just start doing it again.
01:19:12
A beautiful thing about this podcast, too, and we talk about walking to my apartment in Hollywood down the street at night.
01:19:18
A beautiful thing is I have a parking space now. Oh, congratulations. Due to this podcast.
01:19:22
Thank you. It really means a lot to me. So what's fun is that you thought of doing the minisodes, didn't you?
01:19:29
Yeah, separately. I think I was like, let's do a whole episode about minisodes. You're like...
01:19:33
Because there were so many, because the Gmail box was so fucking full of incredible stories.
01:19:38
It was like, there's no way to just do the episode and this. Right. And so then we got to do a second episode, which it's like that kind of audience participation helped us become what we became because that's how numbers go up.
01:19:53
And that kind of interaction enabled Georgia to have that idea. And then we're like, yeah, second episode.
01:19:59
And then, I mean, that is it like you guys built this with us. Yeah, totally. I do think it's funny, too, that like the word hometown back then was like, what's your home?
01:20:08
Like it really was what's your hometown true crime story or whatever it is that got you into it.
01:20:13
But now it's just like a word that's thrown about about your horror stories or your incredible story.
01:20:19
It's just hometown. I love that. Hometowns. Yeah, that's right. It's another way of saying your grandma story.
01:20:25
Yeah. It's kind of like the hometown inside of you. So what would this episode be called if it wasn't, a pun, murderous tendencies based on stuff we said in the episode?
01:20:37
Look and listen was because I said that after suggesting that people floss and wear sunscreen.
01:20:43
I think we decided that whenever we say something motherly or like tell you what to do, it's a very like, look, look, listen.
01:20:50
So look and listen has to be. That's right up there. And then I say, listen to your mothers, which I kind of love.
01:20:57
I talk about people getting PhDs in podcasting. Which probably is a thing now. I mean, there's definitely, well, Kate Winkler Dawson teaches podcasting.
01:21:07
My God. I mean in college Yeah Yeah Yeah And then millions of dollars of carbs I eaten millions of dollars of carbs When did I say that
01:21:18
That's funny. There is a fun part of this where we go, look, we had some fun ideas.
01:21:23
I like this. Yeah. I like this. I like you guys. It's fun to have a career where we get to do the thing we're interested in the most, laugh this much, and then work with people that we adore.
01:21:38
Yeah, totally. Alejandra, our producer, Liana, our engineer, who's also a college professor.
01:21:45
Do you teach podcasting, Liana? Not anymore. I used to teach audio production, but I did take a podcasting class in my master's degree.
01:21:55
Wow. Wow. What grade did you get? An A, Karen. Yeah, you did. We look at your GPA when we hire you here.
01:22:03
Yeah. Exactly right. That's right. We're like, sorry, if you got below a B, we can't.
01:22:07
But you and I are college drop. We wouldn't be allowed in our fucking own company.
01:22:11
My only grade was below C or below at all times. But yeah, we have to really hold a standard.
01:22:17
It's important. All right. Well, thanks for being here with us on yet another episode of Rewind.
01:22:23
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Hey, everyone, it's Cal Penn.
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