00:00:00
This is exactly right. You think you're in control until you realize you're not.
00:00:10
As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air, many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft.
00:00:18
I thought we were going to die then. The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn.
00:00:25
Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything. New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the iHeart Podcast Network.
00:00:35
Listen to The Knife on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:41
When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.
00:00:49
I vowed I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves.
00:00:55
We always say that, trust your girlfriends. Listen to The Girlfriends, Trust Me Babe, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:12
Before NXIVM, Nancy Salzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody, it's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.
00:01:20
She trained in something called neurolinguistic programming. People loved our training.
00:01:25
Then, everything changed. Yeah, and they called it a cult. How does a method designed to improve lives end up in a cult?
00:01:33
A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.
00:01:40
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:59
Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. It's our new Wednesday episode where we revisit our original episodes and kind of give you a personal recap on what we were doing and what we were thinking and how much it's all changed since 2016.
00:02:23
It's a lot, turns out. And today we're revisiting episode 16 called, we're sticking with this, Blood Murder 16 Magic.
00:02:32
And this came out on Friday the 13th of May in 2016. That's lucky. I know. There's a lot of witchy elements taking place here.
00:02:41
So go into the street and grab the biggest Red Hot Chili Peppers fan you can find to listen along with us right now because we can all be day one listeners.
00:02:49
Okay, let's listen to how we chose to start episode 16. we're recording jesus christ hey hi karen hi georgia how are you don't worry about it
00:03:08
ladies and gentlemen it's my favorite murder i'm karen kilgareth i'm georgia hartstark
00:03:15
and we're here to talk to you about murder hey you guys do you like talking about murder
00:03:19
we're murder nerds. Turns out a lot of you like to talk about murder. Turns out it's not that rare or weird.
00:03:26
No, I think it's just that other people don't live in big cities where everyone talks about,
00:03:30
you know, there's more people that you've talked about murder with. I think a lot of people are like
00:03:34
the only person they know that likes murder. Yeah, you can't go to your mom with this shit.
00:03:40
She's going to shake her finger at you no matter what. Yeah, and your husband's going to get scared of you.
00:03:45
Yeah, he's going to be like, holy shit, I married that. Yeah, your coworkers are going to be like,
00:03:48
something's wrong with her. She's going to kill me in the bathroom. I feel like, why are you that into it?
00:03:53
Coworkers are always that girl. Oh, fuck yeah. Did you take my yogurt? I'll murder you.
00:03:59
Like, I will murder you. I don't think that's interesting because my brother's best friend got murdered when he wasn't.
00:04:06
I think that's actually really mean to like death. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's perfect then.
00:04:12
That means I never have to talk to you again. That's how I've negotiated my life personally.
00:04:17
i test it out scaring away do your eyes go wide oh then i've now weeded out the week
00:04:24
goodbye do you frill your brow or jump up and down and clap and say i love murder that's how
00:04:32
you pick your team totally yep that's how we found each other do you know did you already know that
00:04:39
uh kara clink loves murder i think she told me recently she loves it too that's oh yeah she
00:04:47
texted me and was like, I have a murder story I want to tell. I have hers. And it's amazing.
00:04:54
Do you know that there's like, I've had a, the best, the best compliment is when someone, you
00:04:58
know, kind of from like your world writes to you and it's like, I love your podcast. And you're
00:05:04
like, I didn't even know you listened to it. I have a few friends who are like acquaintances
00:05:08
who've done that. And they're like, I have a story I want to tell you. And I'm like,
00:05:12
I will, it should be on the podcast. Yes. I love it. It's yeah. Because there's,
00:05:17
So I've had the same experience and I kind of want to go like, it's so nice that you would even,
00:05:23
the second I see somebody talking about their podcast, I'm like, turn off brain. Like I never
00:05:27
pay attention. Meanwhile, I have the gall to have two. Right. Look at us. I mean, we're just,
00:05:34
are we allowed? Cause there's so many other things I'm interested in. Can we, let's do one
00:05:39
more together about something totally different. A different podcast? Would it have the same passion
00:05:44
know Like what Do we have another thing in common No I see myself out You know what it is We could talk about vintage clothes Do you like vintage okay in two months we can talk about it a lot does anyone want to hear about fucking
00:06:05
shopping in clothes nope there's a reason what are you gonna do describe them i kind of look like that one scene from greece where they were at the dance yeah this is why
00:06:18
because there's only so many vintage clothes but there's just an infinite amount of murders
00:06:23
yeah because everyone's murdering god guys we just did the cracked.com podcast yeah which was
00:06:31
so awesome so much fun when does that come out shit he told me and i don't remember jack would
00:06:37
you remember jack's last name nope god we're the worst we are so self-centered today's a little bit
00:06:42
of a lazy wednesday yeah uh we hung out last night and went to a drag show oh my god jackie
00:06:48
be. That was a great show. It was so hilarious. And we told your friends about why did we start
00:06:56
telling them that we had a murder podcast? Who? Your two friends that were sitting next to us.
00:07:01
I don't know. Because when people are like, what are you up to? Like, I don't know what to say.
00:07:05
Yes. Because everything sounds like bragging. Well, what am I up to? I don't know. Like this
00:07:09
thing. And it's not that great, but sounds great. Yeah. So I just don't know how to answer that
00:07:14
question. Yeah. Saying you have a podcast is good because it definitely does not sound like a brag.
00:07:19
No. It's just like outing yourself as a fucking self-indulgent weirdo. So yeah. And it's also a
00:07:27
nice way to test the waters. Like, are you interested in this or no? Yeah. And I think
00:07:31
everyone is. I think so. Well, because that's the, what we were talking about last night is
00:07:36
everyone watches 2020 and 48 hours. Like that's the reason they're popular shows.
00:07:41
And even people who don't, like Vince wouldn't put it on, but when it's on, he's like dialed in.
00:07:47
Yeah. Because it's good. Some good young storytelling. It is. So this was from, we had someone talk on the Twitter feed, which made me really happy.
00:07:57
And of course made me laugh. Again, anytime people are tweeting Yakuza, you tweet in any of the stuff that we can't remember while we're talking.
00:08:06
We love it. We love that we would drive you crazy with not knowing. sorry um it's just who we are but um it was if i can't find this it'll be the worst sorry now i'm
00:08:19
going to be doing reading talking where it sounds like i'm not paying attention it's okay i'll talk
00:08:22
over you go to my fave murder on twitter that's our twitter account follow us there of course you
00:08:27
guys already know about the facebook page we have almost 5 000 people in that freaking page and it's
00:08:32
like when i can't sleep at night i just scroll through it and read all the articles where people
00:08:36
are putting up it's so good i do the exact same thing and pretty soon we're going to have t-shirts
00:08:41
It's like in the next week, you're going to be able to pre-order your shirt. So good.
00:08:45
Which is so exciting. Did you find it? Yep. Oh, good. No, no, I didn't. But I know I'm close because I remember these.
00:08:53
It was just a woman who said that she had to look up when I was talking about the, oh,
00:08:58
suppressive persons. Oh, yeah. That we could not think of that phrase when we were talking about Scientology.
00:09:04
But lots of people could think of it and told us, which we love, that there was a woman
00:09:10
who looked up uh the thing that i called like ground hypnosis i completely made up the title
00:09:16
for it great it's for when people when pilots are in the sky they can't look at the ground
00:09:21
because they'll just instinctually just drive the plane into the ground yeah and she said what it
00:09:26
was called yep i can't find it god damn it edit this part out um can we really sorry if you want
00:09:32
unless you can find it um this is my challenge to find it in five seconds Five, four, three, two.
00:09:43
It's like, I just retweeted it, I thought. But maybe, but maybe. I've been secretly going in and deleting tweets at you.
00:09:54
Just for fun. Just for fun. Here's the, here's just a quote from us. I love when people quote us.
00:10:01
I know. Because I'm self-centered. It's a powerful feeling. Here's the thing I know about skateboarders.
00:10:06
they're massively chill they don't murder families said karen i love it oh someone said
00:10:16
quote worst case scenario he eats the baby i don't know that was you that was me that was you
00:10:23
that you would never let albert fish babysit your kid right um by the time you're old you're either
00:10:28
completely evil or an american hero oh no wait oppressive persons um someone said you said you're
00:10:40
in a cult call your dad that's when i was just letting scientologists know how it is oh my gosh
00:10:48
it's the best fuck it i can't i can't find this i'm sorry that's okay um let me see another quote
00:10:54
how about shelly miscovige is missing as fuck missing as fuck girl pretty great that is a good
00:11:00
one i love that i talk like that my mom would hate it all right oh my god my father the amount
00:11:05
of f's and s's that i say on this podcast my father would be livid um oh do you want to talk
00:11:13
about our new favorite show sure the affair no you mean the family that's what i meant i hate
00:11:23
the affair the affair is a bore right it's a trash heap it's not even a bore it's like
00:11:29
it makes me angry how just vapid and stupid every single person is on it and i don't care about you
00:11:36
guys and i you fucking deserve each other you have to go on i think they're from a while back
00:11:42
but john levinstein on twitter was doing like basically live tweeting the affair and it was
00:11:47
literally like, will he finish his book? We just don't know. Like he was pretending that those
00:11:53
plot lines were exciting and it was really hilarious Oh I just want to kick that all on the vaginas Yeah I didn I didn watch it because i don care if people have affairs or not it i feel it none of my business but yes the family oh my gosh someone on the facebook group was like in a comment was like has anyone
00:12:10
watched the family and i need a new binge watch show so i was like i'll check this out joan allen
00:12:14
yeah the guy from friday night lights that's super cute yeah and mike sorenson who's the cute
00:12:21
Oh, that's what he's from. The Big Brother. Yes. It's from Friday Night Lights. Yes.
00:12:25
I was wondering, I couldn't place him. Gosh, he's cute. He's the super cute guy that dated the coach's daughter.
00:12:30
Yes. Oh, and he like ran away and shit. Yes. Yes. He is very cute. He's beautiful.
00:12:34
He's so weirdly beautiful. He's like plain and beautiful at the same time. And he's got that like skater, like bad boy look to him.
00:12:42
Yeah. Like you want to fix him. Yes. In this, but that's how good of an actor he is.
00:12:47
Because in Friday Night Lights, he was like the little abandoned, boy that was being raised by his grandma and trying to be a good football player, which was
00:12:55
like heartbreaking. You want to take care of this fuck. Yeah. Cause he's got those big eyes.
00:12:59
Oh my God. So here's the plot, which is like my dream plot of anything ever is a kid goes missing
00:13:05
at eight. Fucking, I love kidnappings. Come 10 years later, comes home. Stephen Stainer.
00:13:11
Who's, what's he from? Stephen Stainer. That's the real life thing that that really happened.
00:13:15
Right. I'm positive. These are my theories. I'll just shout out what I think they're basing it on.
00:13:19
Okay. Because it's a lot of like true to life shit. Yeah. The kid comes back. Is it really the kid or is it not the kid? Where has he been?
00:13:26
That's the documentary, The Imposter. Yes, exactly. Does someone know something? Does someone not know something? There's like suspicions.
00:13:33
That's the podcast. Does someone know something? Sorry. Is the cop fucking the dad? Yes.
00:13:42
Yes. That's not a spoiler alert because you find that out immediately. Yeah. It's so great. And what I love about it is that
00:13:47
the biggest bombshell in the show doesn't happen until like a few episodes in. What's the sister?
00:13:56
Oh my God. No, they keep, they just keep, I think they did a great job of like understanding that these days people need more than just one
00:14:05
like storyline like that. Right. And folding in things that are fascinating and possibilities.
00:14:10
Like they basically made it the most dramatic possible show. Because then you want to go back and be like,
00:14:16
I watched it from an angle of thinking this was happening. And the whole time I didn't know this
00:14:21
other thing was happening. So I want to go back. You'll understand when you watch. I want to go
00:14:25
back and see everyone's reaction now that I know they know what's going on. And the flashbacks
00:14:30
are great. It's all these like present day, 10 years ago, like who got kidnapped? Oh my God,
00:14:35
Andrew McCarthy. Oh my God. He plays like the town rapist creep who gets exonerated when the
00:14:41
kid comes home because he got tried and convicted for the murder of this kid yeah who and he is the
00:14:47
and went to child went to jail as a child molester murderer which is bad news but he isn't a kids
00:14:53
you know what i mean yeah he's got some problems yeah he is such a good creep yeah he really is
00:15:00
he's got kooky eyes yeah i'm happy to see him back in the acting world he directed an episode
00:15:05
yeah the flashbacks are incredible and there's nothing i love more than a secret uh buried room
00:15:15
oh yeah in the woods how how what would you do in there how would you get out yeah and how crazy would you go and how terrible okay here's my problem with it
00:15:25
the police officer doesn't know how to police the lady yeah she is the worst she should have been
00:15:33
immediately fired after he gets exonerated a yes everyone would have been the dad
00:15:40
immediately taken off the case you're and you're still on the kit like so much of the cop shit is
00:15:46
such bullshit i can't she like shoot someone who's unarmed she and nothing happens yeah i but that
00:15:52
actress played daughter maitland in uh boardwalk empire and she was so incredible you're killing
00:15:59
like I'm always like I know that face from somewhere yeah that's what she is I had to look
00:16:03
her up because I was like I know who that is and it's she has she had credit with me and I didn't
00:16:08
know why and then I looked it up and I was like it's fucking daughter I was like this must be her
00:16:12
first role I've never seen you know I don't know shit um I just hate it's I love it all it's great
00:16:19
but I have the same problem with this that I did with the killing I don't give a fuck if people are
00:16:24
running for office. I don't want to know about their stresses. I think it's the most boring
00:16:29
thing possible. It's, it makes me crazy. So it's like, we've got the big speech. There's nothing
00:16:35
more boring than running for office. And my thing is too, like, you guys are wealthy. Just stay home
00:16:39
and chill. Like in my life. Yeah. Don't power through it by continuing to run for like state
00:16:44
Senate. Stay home with your, like if I were, if I were the mom and my kid came home 10 years later,
00:16:49
I'd be like, well, we are fucking staying home together. For at least a week. At least a week.
00:16:53
and bonding yeah also we're already rich who wants to be fucking mayor i mean ridiculous don't you
00:17:01
know about like cooking and hanging out at home and like being a good parent and like or that if
00:17:06
you go through a major life trauma you are allowed to stop doing the thing that you're doing for an
00:17:10
indeterminate amount of time so that you don't have a nervous breakdown yep yeah yep yeah i get
00:17:16
it there's a couple flaws but overall it's very entertaining the cop part is so huge for me that i
00:17:21
almost can't i almost can't but the sister is played by allison hill who is one of the greatest
00:17:26
actresses what is she from she yeah well it's scott pilgrim she was the the um the girl who
00:17:32
was the drummer and scott yeah she's like great in that but she was on an episode what was that um
00:17:38
in in in treatment oh yeah i never got past the first episode i know it was supposed to be great
00:17:44
um with gabriel burn her episode of it is so good that i was like oh my god this actress is
00:17:51
so good. And then I just started seeing her in a bunch of stuff. I need to go back and watch it.
00:17:55
And the little girl who plays her in the flashbacks the two of them I mean you know when you see flashbacks you like come on Or they you like they hired her because she looks like her but she a terrible actress It like one of the two
00:18:06
This girl's great. She's great. Looks like her. Well, and also I feel like because Joan Allen plays the mother and I feel like Joan Allen is probably in a position where she got to call at least a couple of the shots in this situation of how the show was set up.
00:18:18
you get Matt Sorensen, you get Alison Pill, you get that British actor who's in everything in
00:18:24
England and is now on this show. Which one is he? He was on. I don't know. Which one is he in the
00:18:28
show? Oh, the dad. I knew he had an accent. Yes. That was bothering me because it was coming out
00:18:33
a little bit. And I'm like, well, fine. He cannot. He can be from England when he was a kid.
00:18:37
But for some reason, it's like that bothers me. Well, you know, they always give British actors
00:18:42
credit because they're so much better than American actors on the whole. But oftentimes,
00:18:47
time it's you have to have a good ear to be able to do a convincing american accent yeah and we i
00:18:52
think most people are like of course he can do it and then they're just like well every once in a
00:18:56
while they'll drop an r or do a weird thing exactly and then you get pulled out of it i do but then
00:19:01
i'm like he can have been from germany or from fucking england or from like australia and it
00:19:06
does like i i know i need to just get out of my head yeah but it does take you out of it yeah i
00:19:10
just love that guy because he has been working consistently for easily 30 years he's in everything
00:19:15
Wow. That's awesome. For all my BBC obsessive television watching, he's just like, oh, he's in every other thing.
00:19:25
Okay, we're back from the past. And this one is so interesting to me because this is a turning
00:19:30
point for us this episode, because we mentioned that we were on the Cracks podcast, the Crack.com
00:19:36
live podcast with Jack O'Brien. And that is where people found us for the first time.
00:19:42
That's right. Yeah. This is like the moment when suddenly it was, oh shit, what the fuck? Because of crack.com podcast.
00:19:50
Yeah, that's right. Jack O'Brien's having us on his podcast was truly a next level kind of like you're coming up here now thing.
00:20:00
Jack O'Brien is one of the loveliest human beings. We saw him at the iHeartRadio Awards.
00:20:04
That's right. But anyway, it was nice to see him full circle like that. Yeah. So I don't know. To me, like this kind of just gives me chills a little bit because it's like, all right, buckle the fuck up, Karen and Georgia. You guys have no idea what's about to fucking happen.
00:20:18
We don't know what's going on. We're just delighted that the Facebook group has 5,000 people and people are starting to learn how to do memes personalized to the show.
00:20:27
That's right. I love it. And there were some really good ones. Yeah. This was like the start of like, oh, we could take these quotes that other people are telling us we say, turn it into merch.
00:20:37
Yeah. It's just like, which is always where my brain is, of course. Yeah. Start a third and fourth business. Why not? It's a good idea.
00:20:45
Out of my personal bank account. That's a great idea for tax purposes. Yeah. Just keep a little running notepad. We'll be fine.
00:20:52
And we were, ladies and gentlemen. We were. We were. We actually were. All right. Well, let's listen to Karen's story from episode 15.
00:20:59
This is like one of those classic ones that you look back on and you're like, how did it turn out this way?
00:21:05
It kind of reminds me of Lacey Peterson in that way where it's like, oh, everything was handled wrong.
00:21:11
And the media and the world was watching. Right. And the media and public are like partly to blame for that.
00:21:18
And but so are the police who mishandled it, you know. Every angle and step. It was a very flawed time, I think.
00:21:25
And it's, we've talked about this a lot, it's the media we cut our teeth on. Right.
00:21:30
It's the insensitive, kind of salacious news media, I would say. Victim blaming.
00:21:36
That built that. Yeah. So we were kind of like, later on, when you look back, you're like, oh, no wonder we have these blind spots.
00:21:43
All right. Well, here's Karen covering the murder of Chandra Levy. Your husband is not who you think he is.
00:21:53
Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.
00:21:59
I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
00:22:06
Just then, we felt the plane turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:22:16
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,
00:22:23
and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,
00:22:29
but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything.
00:22:33
And me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:22:39
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:22:43
Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:22:51
This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security,
00:23:02
one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS
00:23:08
and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:43
You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:55
Is it me first? I think so. What's our theme this week, Karen? The theme is Let's Not Do It.
00:24:00
themes anymore because they paint us into a corner and make us do it all wrong. I think when we don't have an idea of what we want to do, like let's for the next couple ones
00:24:09
not do a theme. Let's play fast and loose. And then like if I have one that I want to talk about
00:24:14
and you don't have one, I can be like, okay, well, here's the theme that will work with this.
00:24:18
We could also go into a realm at some point where we assign each other. Ooh, I like that. I like an assignment. I wish you guys could have seen her face.
00:24:29
She genuinely liked that idea. It lit up. You already have very big eyes, and they just went like three times bigger.
00:24:36
Am I scary? Oh, werewolves London. Is that your murder? Yeah. Those London werewolf murders.
00:24:45
No, mine is, and interestingly enough, happened in the year 2000. Oh, my. Every single murder from now on for you was going to have happened in the year 2000.
00:24:55
Yeah. Shipman didn't really, didn't really serve the purpose it was supposed to. So now it's all
00:25:01
going to be makeup work. That's actually how my whole life is. I fuck up something and then I'm
00:25:04
constantly making up for it long past the time when anyone's interested. Putting more, putting
00:25:10
more effort into it than you would have had to if you had just done it the first time.
00:25:14
Correctly. The first time. I get that. Yeah. Always. Guys. Hi. This week, my favorite murder is the murder of a young woman named
00:25:21
Chandra Levy. Hey. This is a fun one. This was crazy. I also. And turns. Crazy. And this is a, I find this is a fascinating, I just talked total shit about no one cares
00:25:37
about when you're running for office. And this is all about like politics stuff.
00:25:41
But it's the part that I actually believe. I want, you can cut straight to if you think a congressman has murdered somebody, because
00:25:48
I'll believe you. Oh, always. Yeah. So I don't want to know. I think everyone will.
00:25:53
Yeah. Right. Because talk about how we're hungry sociopaths. Well, that's the thing is like, that's the thing of they want it to be someone crazy and
00:26:02
huge. They don't want it to be some fucking dipshit. Yeah. Who doesn't, whose life isn't worth half of this girl's life.
00:26:09
Right. They want it to be some powerful, maybe there's like the government behind it.
00:26:13
Dark. Right. Something dark. She found out a government secret. Then they had to kick.
00:26:17
Yeah. It could just go super crazy. Yeah. And I remembered, because I had a lot, you know, a lot of big ideas and judgments and what I actually thought.
00:26:26
And even in remembering it before I did the looked anything up was like, OK, I think he really did it.
00:26:32
And they just couldn't pin it on him. And then I remembered there's a movie called Absolute Power.
00:26:38
It's a Clint Eastwood movie from 1997 with Gene Hackman. Do you remember this where he is a cat burglar?
00:26:43
he's like a jewelry thief and he goes um to rob this apartment and he gets he finds a safe room
00:26:50
and that has like a one-way mirror and he's in there stealing diamonds and then the people come
00:26:57
back so he has to shut the door and hide and he witnesses the president murdering his mistress
00:27:02
that's cool then he then he while he is trying to figure out a way to expose it the the the um
00:27:10
president's whole team, including Judy Davis and, uh, and the guy that, that always plays,
00:27:16
that played the president on 24, Dennis, doesn't matter. You're the one who remembers this.
00:27:22
You don't remember it. You're, you're fucked. So, um, basically they, they go about covering it all
00:27:28
up and it's, it just makes it so believable when they, they start pulling people that could be
00:27:34
accused of it, you know, the way that they will do it to clean up a massive thing like that.
00:27:41
Here's my problem with that though. If you have a safe room in your house, you probably also have an alarm system set up. So how do you even get it in the first place?
00:27:50
Oh, I think there's a scene where he's like undoing the alarm system. Okay. And then it's Clint Eastwood whispering to himself in a driveway voice.
00:27:59
towing. So that's what was in my mind. And that was this, that was three years before this even
00:28:05
happened. Um, so in, uh, October of 2000, um, Chandra Levy, who was originally from Modesto,
00:28:13
California, uh, who went to San Francisco state, she was a Bay area girl. Um, she,
00:28:19
which means you're going to get fucking murdered. That's right. That's how we do it. Um,
00:28:23
she had a degree in journalism from San Francisco state and she went to USC to get her master's in
00:28:29
public administration so she so in october of 2000 she uh went to dc to become a paid intern
00:28:37
um for the federal bureau of prisons a thing i didn't know existed until just today uh i immediately
00:28:45
assumed it was the fbi and kept moving until later on they brought it up again then i was like oh
00:28:50
shit this that changes it yeah money bureau of prisons how much money do you people make
00:28:56
Jesus. So her internship was abruptly terminated in April of 2001 because her academic eligibility was expired in December 2000. So since she'd already completed her master's degree requirements. So she was planning on going back to California in May 2001 for her graduation at USC.
00:29:19
um so on may 6th of 2001 chandra levy's parents call the dc police and say we can't get a hold of
00:29:28
our daughter she hasn't called us and we can't contact her for five days and that's completely
00:29:33
like not normal and we need your help so um they flew out to dc yeah and um you know they start
00:29:43
talking to the police um and in interviews with the police her father tells them uh that she's
00:29:51
been having an affair with a congressman how does he know that i guess she told her parents so which i think is kind of good it made me happy that they knew about her life at least she told her parents Oh So which I think is kind of good It made me happy that they knew about her life At least she told her best friend and the best friend was like when she was missing or something
00:30:06
Yeah, maybe said, this is what I think you guys need to know. You guys never keep secrets
00:30:10
because then they can't find out who murdered you. Yeah, that's right. But then again, don't keep a diary.
00:30:18
There's a lot of conflicting messages on this podcast. You have to stay with us.
00:30:22
Keep a word document. The truth. will be revealed eventually eventually we got you know we have a plan yeah there's a long-term
00:30:30
five-year plan for this podcast so um so chandra levy's mother i mean father tells the cops
00:30:36
you need to look at congressman gary condon because they've been having an affair
00:30:40
so on may 10th um the police get a warrant to search her apartment and they find her purse
00:30:47
with her id or credit cards all her good stuff two suitcases that are half suitcases that are
00:30:52
half packed. Um, her answering machines full, there were two messages from Gary, Gary Condit
00:30:57
on the answering machine. Um, and when a police sergeant tried to examine her laptop, uh, he
00:31:04
inadvertently corrupted the internet search data, uh, as he was not a trained technician. You
00:31:10
fucking idiot. I bet he got in trouble. Like she should have on the family. Yeah, that's,
00:31:16
I hope he got in trouble because it took them a month to fix it. It was the year 2000. Um,
00:31:22
So they finally are able to access what her last searches were on that computer.
00:31:28
And it was on May 1st. And it was for Amtrak, Southwest Airlines, Baskin-Robbins, Gary Condit, a weather report.
00:31:37
And then the very last one was at 1224 for the Pierce Klingle Mansion, which is the park office building for Rock Creek Park.
00:31:46
um so and basically another month goes by so this is two and a half months now from when she's reported missing they finally search this park wow and it's uh which is by her
00:32:01
house yeah i think it was they said within four miles um 30 cops search the park and they don't
00:32:09
find anything and then they search it again like a couple weeks later and they don't find anything
00:32:14
again they go to talk to gary condit he denies um any knowledge of knowing what happened to her
00:32:20
um and the levy family is now talking to the press themselves this is how it always goes i remember
00:32:26
when this shit broke and it was like fucking heavy it was crazy and uh the levy family tells
00:32:33
the press they think that gary condit has something to do with her disappearance so now it's on like
00:32:38
Donkey Kong because we've got a seat of congressmen. Is that what you say? They're
00:32:44
seated? Like an in-place working congressman who's having an affair. He's married. This girl is
00:32:52
in her early 20s and an unpaid intern, or no, paid intern, sorry. A paid intern that he's having
00:33:01
an affair with. Not the only woman he's having an affair with, as is later revealed. Powerful,
00:33:07
hungry men. So this is the kind of story that at the time, this was pre 9-11, obviously this is
00:33:13
pre 24 hour news cycle. So this was back when, you know, CNN was its own cable channel, but they
00:33:21
would be like horse rescued out of a ravine. You know, this plane crash only two P it was a biplane
00:33:28
only two P it was like that kind of stuff. And then when big stuff like this hit, it would go
00:33:33
all day and night. So it was different than it is now that people are used to. It would just be like,
00:33:39
here we are. All the alarm bells are ringing. So the DC police chief announced on May 22nd,
00:33:50
2002. So this is, oh, sorry. I was just going to say in July, 2001, Fox News opinion poll
00:33:57
of 900 people, 44% said they believed that Gary Condon had something to do with Chandra
00:34:03
Levy's disappearance based on no evidence based on nothing. And 51% of people said that they
00:34:10
thought he acted guilty. Uh, and I think this also had something to do with the fact that,
00:34:15
you know, the story broke probably at the end of May, beginning of, uh, June, this is a whole
00:34:21
month and nothing's happened. So now you're just letting people stew and simmer and speculate.
00:34:26
And watch the same fucking news over and over and over the same coverage, the same,
00:34:31
these beautiful photos of her and this you know this fucked up senator yeah and like and just
00:34:38
the people want answers they want something totally um so on may 22nd 2002 um the police
00:34:47
chief announces that skeletal remains matching levy's dental records have been discovered by a
00:34:53
man walking his dog and looking for turtles in rock creek park two years later yes two years later
00:35:01
to the month okay um i want to see a picture of the man who was looking for turtles i mean
00:35:06
and immediately guilty is he guilty or is he a big man child that had his whole life ruined
00:35:12
because he stumbled upon a dead body great question um and it was down a hill down a
00:35:19
hillside in like a ravine so detectives found bones and personal items scattered but not
00:35:25
buried in a forested area along a steep incline, including sports bra, sweatshirt, leggings, tennis shoes.
00:35:32
Man, bitch was going for, not bitch, Chip was going for a fucking jog. In the afternoon.
00:35:39
Yep, daylight. Yeah. So on June 6th, after the police completed their search, private investigators hired by the Leveys found her shinbone with some twisted wire
00:35:51
about 25 yards from the other remains Wow So there fucking major evidence that is right nearby that these cops do not find Wow And after two sweeps of the park Yes I want to see the spot like off of the trail where
00:36:09
she was found. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Is that a busy trail? Is it not? I mean, and then
00:36:14
logic of when people get rid of bodies is they throw them downhill. They're not going to carry
00:36:20
them uphill right so you need to look down every hill yes well there's all kind i mean and also you
00:36:26
nowadays they do it and you see it all the time where if there is a body they have then like taped
00:36:32
off you know 500 yards around the outside yeah you don't you the idea that it's 25 yards away
00:36:40
and that's just like oh oh well well that just shows that the person isn't you know because
00:36:45
Someone who is experienced in finding human remains would know that animals would have scattered the bones.
00:36:53
Yes. And you need to look everywhere. After two years. And those bones do matter.
00:36:57
It's not like it's like, well, it's a shin bone. It doesn't matter because it had wire around it.
00:37:01
You can find out where the wire came from. Oh, no, it totally mattered because the police chief was quoted as saying it's unacceptable that these items were not located.
00:37:11
Wow. Which is like, well, that's all well and good. But now we're after the fact where those PIs weren't hired, which is another thing that points to that thing of like, you got to be rich to get any justice in this country, because if there weren't hired private investigators, that would have never been found.
00:37:26
So the D.C. police claimed that they would have discovered Levy's body earlier, if not for a miscommunication regarding the scope of the search.
00:37:35
commanders had ordered the search within a hundred yards of each road and trail but searcher um
00:37:41
searches were focused within a hundred yards of roads only resulting in body remaining undiscovered
00:37:47
for a long period of time makes no fucking sense you're searching a park you clearly check trails
00:37:53
that's what people walk on in parks totally it's doesn't even make sense and also the fact i mean
00:38:00
And this clearly is just totally mishandled because at this point, like you're, you've,
00:38:07
you, you let somebody touch a computer that clearly will have vital information on it
00:38:12
that puts you behind a month. And then you do a search where you basically kick some leaves around the park and go home.
00:38:19
And you're like, no, sorry. And in the meantime, this dude's entire career is over and like ruined.
00:38:27
Yep. Did he sue? Okay. Tell me more about it. Well, the other thing, too, is that there are theories that the body got dumped after the police searched.
00:38:35
So she may not have been there the first time around. But it seems doubtful if they didn't even search off of trails.
00:38:44
You know, it didn't seem thorough or like they even kind of knew what to do. Anyway, so in the autopsy, the coroner found damage to her hyoid bone, which is the U-shaped bone in the back of your neck that supports your tongue.
00:38:58
I never even heard of that before. which suggests strangulation. Okay. I didn't know.
00:39:03
Yeah. I know there's that little bone. Yeah. If that's damaged, it's like you've been squeezed,
00:39:08
but there's no conclusive evidence because the body was outside for two years. So of course,
00:39:17
then in September, 2001, DC police and federal prosecutors contacted by the lawyer of an informant
00:39:24
in a jail saying that they know who Levy's killer is. and um he says a man named a 20 year old illegal immigrant from el salvador named
00:39:35
ingmar guandique i'll just say that's how you pronounce his last name um who he shared a cell
00:39:42
with told him condit paid him 25 000 to kill levy whoa so the investigators ruled this story out
00:39:52
because Gwandeek was in jail because he'd admitted to assaulting two women in Rock Creek Park.
00:40:00
What? Uh-huh. Wait, they ruled him out. Okay. No, they ruled out Gary Condit paying this guy
00:40:08
because they'd already had Gwandeek in jail because he'd already attacked two women with knives
00:40:17
and raped them in that park. That sounds like a pattern. It seems pattern-y to me.
00:40:22
It does. So it turned out that Gwandeek had failed to show up for work on the day of Levy's disappearance.
00:40:29
And his former landlady recalled his face appeared scratched and bruised at the time.
00:40:35
So Gwandeek took a polygraph, failed, but he didn't speak English. And the person administering the polygraph didn't speak Spanish.
00:40:45
Okay. So, question mark. and this was the only story in the news and then 9-11 happened
00:40:53
and Gary Condit was like, thank you, Jesus. Everything's going my way finally. Wouldn't it have been great if they had,
00:41:01
I mean, if a 9-11 hadn't happened. Yeah, you know what? Now that you bring it up,
00:41:06
it would have been great. Yeah, but then also if Gary Condit had a chance for the big story
00:41:10
to be that he didn't do it, he would be a fucking, well, he would still have been fucking
00:41:13
20-year-old girls. True, but you know. You don't go to jail for that? No, but you're still a sleazeball.
00:41:21
I mean, he's a fucking politician. Yeah. So basically, it became a cold case for years.
00:41:29
Of course, Gary Condit lost his reelection and left office at the end of his term on January 3rd, 2003.
00:41:35
So in 2005, our buddy, investigative journalist Dominic Dunn, was on Larry King.
00:41:41
And he said he believed Gary Condit knew more information about the case than he'd been disclosing.
00:41:46
Dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun. Sorry, I had to do that. Dominic Dunn. I love it. So Gary Connett filed two lawsuits against Dominic Dunn Dominic Dunn forcing him into an undisclosed financial settlement for one and the other one which was a slander case was eventually dismissed because quote
00:42:05
the context in which Dunn's statements were made demonstrates that they were part of a discussion about speculation in the media and inaccurate media coverage.
00:42:13
So they were actually talking about the case itself and how, you know, how that happens or like how things become witch hunts.
00:42:20
That makes sense. the media were criticized for their rush to judgment in on this case and sometimes blatantly
00:42:28
suggesting that Condit was guilty of murder. There were reporters that were camped out in front of
00:42:34
his Washington apartment who were quoted as saying that they would stay there until he resigned.
00:42:39
So it was a legit witch hunt against him. That politician thing, like the fact that people,
00:42:44
So I hope for both of us and never in our lives do we have the experience of having reporters camped outside of our fucking house.
00:42:53
Dude. Negative or positive. Well, also because they can just take any little seed of anything or one person walking by and going, oh, I knew her.
00:43:00
Yeah. I mean, anything could spin in any direction. They could go through your trash and find like a thing that points to this thing as evidence.
00:43:07
Sure. Yeah, it's crazy. And there was in the summer of 2008, the Washington Post ran a 13 part series.
00:43:15
I didn't read it. I can't read. It's an unlucky amount of parts. Which was, quote, a tale of tabloid and mainstream press pack journalism that helped derail this investigation.
00:43:32
So it was basically all about that, how it just was totally tried in the media. And meanwhile, the cops were kind of like, didn't know necessarily what to do or what was going on and didn't have a lot to go on.
00:43:43
Well, they probably followed along the media as well. And so it misled them. For sure.
00:43:47
They got a suede. Newsweek magazine stated that the media may have become more skeptical of herd mentality and open to alternative suspects after the Levy case happened.
00:43:58
That basically that changed the way people reported and reacted, like the journalism reacted to cases.
00:44:04
Wait, in a positive way or a bad way? Well, I think in a positive way of just being aware that that's what they would do for the story.
00:44:11
You're affecting the actual outcome and the person's going to get caught. That they basically were like, oh, they were having an affair and implying that he killed her.
00:44:20
Right. So anyway, it was a cold case until 2006. And then there was a new D.C. police chief, a woman named Kathy Lanier.
00:44:30
I'm assuming is how you pronounce it. and she replaced the lead detective on the case with three veteran investigators who had homicide
00:44:37
experience uh yeah uh so who did you assign who did that original guy assign in the first place
00:44:44
what yeah are you doing um also it made me reading that made me go did gary condent have
00:44:52
some kind of power over that first group of guys to be like how about you don't how about you're
00:44:59
not very accurate in your investigation of this. I mean, it's just a possibility.
00:45:02
Well, this is, I want to hear who you think did it because that, if he didn't, then that's,
00:45:08
then why would he do that? Go on. So here we go. I'll try to plow through this. No, no, no. So in 2007, the editors of the Washington Post assigned a new team of reporters
00:45:19
to re-examine the case. And there was a series of articles published in the summer of 2008 that
00:45:27
focused on the failure of the police to fully investigate Guadagnik's connection to the attacks
00:45:31
in Rock Creek Park. So they had basically just seen that that guy had done that. When it turned
00:45:38
out that that guy's story was this guy did it and Gary Connett paid him to do it and that turned out
00:45:42
to be a lie, they were like, all right, I guess we have no one. Instead of, oh, the guy that's
00:45:46
attacking women and raping women in Rock Creek Park, they don't look at him. That's insane.
00:45:51
So in September 2008, which I love this because the investigators, it's like, so journalists are the ones pushing this forward.
00:46:00
They're fucking up, but they're also making good at the same time to different people.
00:46:06
Investigators searched Guadalique's federal prison cell in California, and they found a photo of Chandra Levy that he had saved from a magazine.
00:46:14
So they finally arrested him in March of 2009. and he was indicted by a grand jury for kidnapping,
00:46:23
first-degree murder committed during a kidnapping, attempted first-degree sexual abuse,
00:46:27
first-degree murder committed during sexual offense, attempted robbery, first-degree murder committed during a robbery.
00:46:33
And he pled not guilty to everything. In the trial, Shonda Levy's father testified
00:46:42
that he intentionally pointed the investigators to Gary Condit. He said that he told authorities
00:46:48
during the early years of the investigation, his daughter would have been too cautious
00:46:51
to jog in the woods alone. But he said that he no longer believed that to be true.
00:46:57
So the father like sick him. He like fucking... Pointed the finger. Wow. And kind of, by his own admission,
00:47:05
but see, here's the thing. So it's his own admission that he kind of, saying he misled the cops.
00:47:12
But at the same, so here's the whole paragraph on it. He said he also told police that his daughter
00:47:16
and Condit had a five-year plan between them to get married. In retrospect, Robert Levy admitted,
00:47:21
I just said whatever came to mind just to point to him as the villain. Levy added that he had been convinced that Condit was guilty
00:47:28
until we learned about this character here. Yeah. Referring to Guatnik. I mean, that makes sense because, like,
00:47:35
if you're, like, if you know that your best friend's boyfriend was a fucking abusive, whatever,
00:47:43
and she now turns up dead, And you can say something like, well, once she told me she was afraid that he was going to kill her.
00:47:50
Right. You slip that little thing in there and it makes the case for him. Yep. But that wasn't true.
00:47:57
Yeah. That wasn't the case. Right. But it wasn't him. That's why you don't do that, obviously.
00:48:01
I mean, yeah. But it makes sense why you would. Yeah, totally. So Gary Condit, when he testified in this trial,
00:48:08
would not answer the question, were you having an affair with Chandra Levy? Wouldn't answer the question.
00:48:13
Said it would violate Chandra's privacy and his privacy. Well, then the defense, of course,
00:48:21
comes back with a pair of underwear with Gary Condit's DNA on it and says- How did they get those?
00:48:27
Pretty much have proof because they collected them from her apartment when the cops, you know, it's evidence.
00:48:31
And basically say, yeah, you did. So you don't have to say it. At that point, he should just be fucking honest.
00:48:38
He absolutely should. But he's, you know, I don't, I think he, whatever. So then the prosecution calls the two women,
00:48:46
Guadmique, raped while they were jogging in Rock Creek Park. And one testified that he grabbed her from behind,
00:48:51
dragged her down a ravine, held the knife against her face and raped her. Which is, you know, Chandra's remains were found down a ravine.
00:48:59
Totally. So anyway, this guy gets found guilty. And this made me think of you because they said
00:49:06
that God Meek said to Levy's family during the sentencing, I'm sorry for what happened to your
00:49:11
daughter, but insisted he was innocent. And Susan Levy, the mother said to him, did you really take her life? Look me in my eyes and tell me, which is your thing of like,
00:49:21
just admit it. Just admit it. He was found guilty, sentenced to 60 years in prison.
00:49:27
Wow. So at that point, Condit's lawyer, Burt Fields, remarked, it's a complete vindication, but that comes a little late. Who gives him his career back? And Condit retired from politics, moved with his wife to Phoenix. The wife stayed with him.
00:49:41
If you're a fucking wife of a senator, you've got to be a little bit bing dong in the head, you know?
00:49:46
Yeah. You got it. You're you're playing the big game. You're not going to just run at the first dead paid intern.
00:49:53
Sorry. This is bigger picture stuff. So they moved to Phoenix. This is the most depressing paragraph I've ever read off of Wikipedia.
00:50:02
They moved to Phoenix to manage real estate and open two Baskin Robbins franchises, which have since closed.
00:50:10
Okay, but then remember that Baskin Robbins was one of the things that she searched on her computer?
00:50:17
Uh-huh. What? Well, guess what? now they've asked for a retrial for this guy because they're saying everything, all the
00:50:29
evidence against this guy, it does not match up to her murder, which I know I normally,
00:50:37
and I'm sure this is just me being tabloiding myself, but, uh, he was attacking people and
00:50:44
robbing them. And one woman he raped, but he wasn't yet a murderer. So it's not like she was
00:50:50
the sixth body that they found, you know? Yeah. But you know, one person fights a little harder.
00:50:58
True. You get, you're already, was he already caught for the two rapes when he attacked her?
00:51:04
Yeah. Like just a standard escalation. So yeah. So don't, the, the way to not get
00:51:09
tried for rape when someone can ID you is to murder them. To murder them. That's right.
00:51:14
Well, on June 3rd, 2015, the defense said a new witness, a neighbor called 911 at 437
00:51:21
a.m. on the last day Levy was reported to be alive to report that she heard a blood
00:51:27
curdling scream possibly coming from Levy's apartment. And why didn't that come into the fucking play?
00:51:33
Right. And because that's it's a 911 call. You can just go look it up. Yeah. But they never the cops didn't find that person.
00:51:40
They didn't look that hard. so or the person reported it and it got blown off so they were like must not they must have
00:51:48
more information than me yeah well and the thing is um that kind of maybe leads to the direction
00:51:55
of that she wasn't attacked while she was jogging and murdered in that ravine she was murdered in
00:52:01
her apartment and her body was dumped in that ravine after the cops look sure uh which would
00:52:06
kind of make a little bit more sense. I mean, who knows? Who knows? This is another case of
00:52:12
the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer. There's a rapist in that park. Yes.
00:52:19
It's most likely him, but they are, uh, the defense attorneys have requested, um,
00:52:27
Gary Condit's bank telephone and credit card records, as well as any records from Mr. Condit's
00:52:33
gym from around the time of the disappearance um and they're looking for the gym i don't know
00:52:41
but they must know something specific yeah which is why i was like huh so they're basically
00:52:46
going way harder into searching condit as a suspect which would i bet you they didn't do
00:52:54
they were they were trying not to right right as being good dc cops they're just like it's the
00:53:00
actual yeah congressman is it is he congressman or senator congressman um did i say senator
00:53:07
throughout this i did i who knows i mean accuracy we're not known for it looking for turtles ladies
00:53:16
and gentlemen so anyway this guy is going to get a new trial in on in october of this year man that
00:53:23
poor family yeah it's pretty terrible oh and also they they have um uh they're asking for
00:53:30
notes from law enforcement interviews from former congressman richard army of texas and john
00:53:36
dolittle of california because they are individuals condit said he was meeting with on one of the
00:53:42
important days in question so they're basically going back over and picking his shit apart
00:53:47
to make sure i think to make sure you know what the best fucking who the best witnesses are
00:53:54
our fucking ex That right So he probably got a few of those Oh there was definitely there was one in that article that was like a basically a air hostess a stewardess or whatever
00:54:05
that he told not to talk to the cops yeah i mean i guess he would do that he had a lot of stuff to
00:54:12
be exposed i think but uh that's like that's a good one that's a cold case i would really really
00:54:18
like to know that the real story that's a deeper one than it seems at first because
00:54:24
they're opening it back up like something actually may come of it that's crazy yeah that they're
00:54:28
opening it back up i mean that makes me sad because what if it really was him and he gets
00:54:34
he gets off yeah and then condent doesn't get tried because they don't have enough evidence
00:54:40
and so nobody so this guy spent you know six years in prison yeah and that's it i know it's crazy i
00:54:50
know. Okay, we're back. Karen, any case updates on this story? No, there's no major case updates.
00:54:59
The case is still unsolved. There was like basically a cliffhanger in the way I just told
00:55:04
that story. Ingmar Guandique, the man accused of killing Chandra Levy, was getting a new trial.
00:55:11
I didn't mention why. And that's because the prosecutors failed to disclose that their key
00:55:15
witness was a jailhouse informant who'd cooperated with prosecutors in several other cases to get
00:55:22
favorable treatment and reduce sentences. And that, of course, then calls the reliability of
00:55:27
his testimony into question. So since that episode, episode 16 came out, prosecutors decided not to
00:55:35
retry Guandique. They lost confidence in their case, and they basically just deported him back
00:55:41
to his native El Salvador. Wow. That's just so devastating and not, I think, how I remembered
00:55:51
that went. That's so disappointing. I wonder jailhouse informants, where are we ever going
00:55:56
to land with that? Because on one hand, it could be true and completely helpful and then they
00:56:01
wouldn't come forward unless they got favorable treatment. But on the other hand, it could all be
00:56:05
bullshit. It's just such a hit or miss case. I guess you need more than circumstantial evidence
00:56:09
and a jailhouse informant. Yes. Essentially. I think that's the point. You know, some sort of like a full corruption wash,
00:56:19
I think would be necessary on every side. I think corruption is a huge problem in that area, obviously.
00:56:27
I mean, I'm just literally like, I'm telling you about the episodes of Law and Order I've watched.
00:56:31
So I really know what I'm talking about here. But I mean, I think that's the piece.
00:56:35
It's like, who do we trust? Who is actually on the side of the good? And then when you have a story like that where somebody's corroborating something, he told me that he actually did it.
00:56:44
It's like anyone can and will say that if they're desperate enough. Or you need that held back information that the public doesn't know about.
00:56:52
But also it's like, you know, if they had taken her disappearance seriously from the beginning, her body might have been found sooner and DNA evidence might have been in play.
00:57:01
But because they zeroed in on Gary Condit, they kind of didn't really take it seriously that something else might have happened to her.
00:57:07
Yeah, I think we've seen that happen a lot where the case starts to follow the story in the media. And it's like the media is then shining a spotlight of everyone should be looking over here. And it's like that's whether or not detectives are actually doing that. We don't really know. But that's where it seems like it's like the attention and the heat goes there.
00:57:26
speaking of that i in this episode went back and forth calling gary condit a congressman and a
00:57:33
senator to me they're incredibly interchangeable as a gen x child of the 90s he was a congressman
00:57:41
and again he did have an affair all those things he was not found guilty of this crime but in my
00:57:51
mind of like growing up in the 80s and looking at People magazine, you know what I mean? I would
00:57:56
have thought he was totally guilty of it. It also happened like really close on the heels of Bill
00:58:01
Clinton getting caught doing nefarious things with an intern. And so I think people just like
00:58:06
had this image in their mind of these senators and politicians and congressmen doing terrible
00:58:10
things. Any of them, all of them. Presidents. Yeah. They're all crooked. Every single one of
00:58:16
them. They're crooked. All right. Well, I hate to do this now, but we have to get into my
00:58:20
story which is one of the most awful stories I've ever had to research. Georgia covering the case of Sylvia Likens.
00:58:32
Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.
00:58:37
Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of
00:58:43
the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. And just then, we felt the plane turn in the air,
00:58:53
so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:58:58
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,
00:59:05
and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,
00:59:11
but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything.
00:59:15
and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:59:20
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:59:25
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:33
When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.
00:59:42
I vowed I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves.
00:59:48
We always say that, trust your girlfriends. Listen to The Girlfriends. Trust me babe On the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
01:00:07
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, host of the Wicked Words podcast. Each week I sit down with the true crime writers behind some of the most compelling true crime stories
01:00:17
and discuss their years spent investigating and why it still matters. He sees his father coming out of the woods with his hands over his face, and he knows something happened.
01:00:29
His father just grabs him and says, she's gone. She's gone. These are the cases that leave survivors, families, and the journalists who cover them changed forever.
01:00:40
Working in national television, it'll push you to your limits, and you'll end up doing things you never thought you'd do.
01:00:47
You know, you look back at it, and you're like, I can't believe that really happened.
01:00:51
Join me and step inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Monday on the Exactly Right Network.
01:00:58
Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:01:07
All right, my favorite murder. Yes. Seamless favorite murder. Sylvia Marie Likens.
01:01:17
This one I hadn't heard about until we started the podcast. And I fucking went down a rabbit hole of click, click, clickbait on Facebook group.
01:01:27
Nice. And it's fucking tragic. Get ready because it's depressing. Okay. So Sylvia Marie Likens was born January 3rd, 1949.
01:01:39
Vintage murders. Love it. Love it. And she's from Indianapolis. and essentially she was tortured to death by gertrude banisowski banisowski banisowski
01:01:54
and and her children and other people from the neighborhood i know this one horrible so this is
01:02:02
this took place she got the girl sylvia died in october 26 1965 so she was 16 years old
01:02:08
So Lykins' family moved frequently because her parents were carnival workers. The parents had financial difficulties.
01:02:17
And no teeth. Probably. So in 1965, the father, Lester Lykins, arranged for his daughters, his two daughters, to board with Gertrude, to live with her.
01:02:27
Gertrude was 37. And she was the mother of a new friend of the two girls named Paula, who was 17.
01:02:34
and she moved in with Gertrude and Paula and Paula's six siblings. Lester said he didn't pry, quote,
01:02:44
didn't want to pry into the conditions of the house, he reported at the trial. Well done, Lester.
01:02:50
I don't want to pry. That's how carnies are. They're not going to stick their nose in your business.
01:02:54
You're sending your kids. And he encouraged Gertrude to, quote, straighten out his daughters.
01:03:00
Great. Even from all accounts, these seemed like nice girls, even if they weren't.
01:03:04
And they were paying Gertrude $20 a week to care for her, which I think the equivalent of like $150 now.
01:03:11
She's like cheap. Yeah. So Gertrude described, Gertrude was described as, quote, haggard, underweight, asthmatic, suffering from depression and the stress of several failed marriages.
01:03:24
You got to see this woman, this photo of her, man. She is a fucking salty bitch.
01:03:29
Like there's definitely a shank in her purse kind of a person. And she's a single lady.
01:03:34
single at this point with like i think there was six six or seven six seven kids wow aging from
01:03:40
like 17 down to like 18 months jesus yeah so she could still get it seven children okay i mean
01:03:47
37 that's two years older than i am and she was a fucking salty old woman like the photos
01:03:54
man these eyebrows are something else pre-waxing days oh just she just shaved them off and drew
01:04:00
Roman. Oh, those are the scary ones. Yeah. This chick is, I would not want to meet her in anywhere.
01:04:07
Even a light alley. Yeah. So she began. So when they moved in, Gertrude started taking her anger out, which apparently there was a lot of it on the Likens
01:04:19
girls. And they soon focused exclusively on Sylvia. So accusing her of petty crimes,
01:04:26
the daughter Paula who was pregnant at the time kicked Likens in the genitals and accused her of being pregnant
01:04:34
and a slut which she wasn't wow and okay I have to fucking warn everyone that some of this I'm not going to say all of it
01:04:42
that this torture is like intense and awful and there's a photo of this girl and she just looks sweet and normal and it's
01:04:50
awful so So Lykins was accused by the family that she was spreading rumors about Paula.
01:04:59
And so this provoked Stephanie's boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, which like, man, if that's not a fucking petty thief's name, I don't know what is, to physically attack Lykins.
01:05:09
So this girl is getting tortured by the mother, her daughter, all the kids, the local teens, like boyfriends.
01:05:19
it's like a hobby for them at this point she encouraged the gertrude encouraged the kids
01:05:26
and the neighborhood kids to torment lichens some of her stuff i don't want to talk about but
01:05:31
they said that by the time of her death she had over a hundred cigarette cigarette burns on her
01:05:36
body um it's really fucking brutal and it's in creepy sexual stuff sadist i mean it's fucking
01:05:45
say to stuff, sexual stuff for humiliation, not for legitimate sexual reasons, you know,
01:05:52
to break this poor girl's spirit. And just because they can right Like just basically they all a little bit fucked up and clearly you know And it escalates and it becomes I feel like it becomes fun for them
01:06:08
Yeah. It's not like Stanford Prison Experiment where you have one person that's your prisoner and suddenly it brings out all the like.
01:06:15
You don't see them as a human anymore. Yeah. It feels like. The kid Paula once hit her so hard in the face she broke her own wrist.
01:06:25
Fuck. This is like, it breaks my heart and it makes me want to become a foster parent so much
01:06:29
more because man, these, some of these, some people's fucking living situations are just
01:06:36
insane. So the sister, little sister attempted to contact the family. Um, even the sister who
01:06:44
older sister and she visited the home and learned of the abuse, but learned of the abuse, but did
01:06:49
not call the police or remove her sister from the phone. There was a couple of people who were like,
01:06:53
yeah I saw some weird shit but I never called you know I never called the cops I never called
01:06:58
anyone I didn't want to pry also that was back when you could like open hand slap other people's
01:07:02
kids right like it wasn't that big of a deal to get punched if you were being bad yeah and if an
01:07:07
adult said a kid was bad that was the end of the story yeah that's very true yeah so the parents
01:07:13
didn't um didn't interfere um let's see she's the girl so she stopped going to school and
01:07:20
and she was locked in the cellar. So shortly before her death, okay, this is, oh God.
01:07:28
So shortly before her death, Gertrude carved the words, I am a prostitute and proud of it
01:07:34
on Likens' abdomen with a heated kneel. Whoa. And a couple other things happened.
01:07:40
It's fucking so tragic. I'm sorry if I'm bumming everyone out so bad right now. That's what we're here for.
01:07:46
So on October 25th, 1965, the day before she died, Likens tried to escape, After overhearing, Gertrude's plan to blindfold her and dump her body in the forest.
01:07:56
But she got caught. So on the 26th, after multiple beatings, burnings, and scalding baths, Likens died of a brain
01:08:03
hemorrhage, shock, and malnutrition. Holy shit. 16 years old. And then when she realized she was dead, Gertrude, like they did this crazy thing where they
01:08:13
called the police and Gertrude had forced Sylvia to write a letter saying, you know,
01:08:20
she had had sex with a bunch of boys and extended for money and that they had dragged her away.
01:08:26
And basically they had beaten her and it was there. They had like, she made her write a letter
01:08:30
saying that this is what happened to her. So before the police officers left the house,
01:08:35
like, okay, that's what happened. You know, Jenny, the little sister approached them and said,
01:08:39
get me out of here and I'll tell you everything. Oh, thank God she finally got some balls.
01:08:43
Yeah. The whole time it makes you wonder like, why didn't someone tell someone a teacher or yeah but if it's if you have to think if she's
01:08:54
the salty old broad that's like there with all those kids they were probably like the bad family
01:08:58
of the town yeah i bet you there wasn't a lot of interaction or people coming in and out of that
01:09:03
house and it's this thing of like you you listen to authority back then yeah someone who was an
01:09:10
older an older person who was in charge was the authority and you didn't question that and you
01:09:15
didn't, these things didn't happen. Like this would just, if you, someone told you this was
01:09:19
happening, you'd be like, that's disgusting. Don't ever say that again. It's not happening.
01:09:22
And you probably deserve to get slapped in the face because you were being bad or whatever.
01:09:26
Okay. So during the trial, Gertrude denied being responsible for the death. She pled not guilty
01:09:31
by reason of insanity. Um, and four of the minors who took part in the abuse were also put on trial.
01:09:39
So Paula, the older daughter, John, the younger son, Richard Hobbs, who was like family friend and good old Coy Hubbard, who was 15 and doing some insane stuff to her that I don't want to talk about.
01:09:54
In his closing statement, Gertrude's lawyer said, I condemn her for being a murderess, but I say she's not responsible because she's not all here.
01:10:03
Tapping himself on the head. She's not all here. She's not responsible. That was supposed to be a better voice.
01:10:08
I liked it. It was old fashioned. I was trying. Yeah. So in May 1966, Gertrude was convicted of first degree murder.
01:10:16
She was spared the death penalty and was sentenced to life in prison. But of course, she didn't get life in prison.
01:10:24
She was free on parole by 1985, having been a model prisoner. And she said, the Lord has forgiven me and I have peace inside.
01:10:33
That's nice. You fucking. Yeah, that's the priority is how you feel. Yeah. The Lord.
01:10:36
totally forgave you. And you have peace. That's great. Jesus loved what you did to that girl.
01:10:42
Move on with your fucking life. But you know who doesn't? The girl you killed. But luckily she's haunting your basement.
01:10:49
Yeah. Five years later, she died of what I can only hope was painful lung cancer.
01:10:55
Everyone else totally got out of prison and they became teachers. No. What? Yeah. The boys were sentenced
01:11:02
to two to twenty-one years and were released in three. you guys should everyone should go if you feel like murdering you should because you're just
01:11:11
fucking not going to get punished for it at all i it bothers me so much i hope that someday in
01:11:17
this podcast we can either a solve a murder or be change change sentencing laws can we do that karen
01:11:27
yes i think this podcast has just enough influence and span to really get out there
01:11:35
Well, I mean, that is so crazy to think that one of those people that tortured a young girl became a teacher.
01:11:41
Yeah. To be in charge of young girls and boys. That doesn't even make sense. It doesn't.
01:11:47
It boggles the mind. And the thing about all of this shit is that you can't keep convincing yourself that the world is a fair and just place.
01:11:58
Who's trying to convince themselves? People who aren't into true crime. Oh, that's their problem.
01:12:03
And they're not listening anyway. Yeah. They don't want to know. Whereas like people like us are so aware and so incensed by how fucked up this world is.
01:12:16
What city did that happen in? Indianapolis, which is like, do people still live there?
01:12:20
In the Midwest? Yeah. Also, I wonder if it's that thing of like the Midwestern thing of people keeping to themselves.
01:12:26
Sure. Being private and not being nosy is a big thing. I mean, the dad didn't want to pry into the where his...
01:12:33
I want to know the stories, though, like, were they on drugs or were they total, like, gutter drunk alcoholics?
01:12:39
You don't just give your children away. I'm sure they were alcoholics. Yeah. If they worked at a carnival, for God's sake.
01:12:45
I think it's said that he had alcohol problems and then the parents, like, hated each other.
01:12:50
And I think they divorced. And so he was like, take, you know, the sons, there was like three sons in the family, in the Likens family.
01:12:56
and they got sent to live with grandma. But the girls, go fend for yourselves. Rough.
01:13:03
Oh, yeah. And were they locked up early? Like, why didn't they run away? I know.
01:13:08
That's another thing in my mind is like, you would be so much better off living on the streets.
01:13:13
There's no silver lining. No, it goes straight down into hell. It's just one hopes that Jenny Likens,
01:13:22
a little sister, had an okay life. But could she have? Probably not. I don't know.
01:13:27
Unless she's one of those people that like became like a victim's rights advocate.
01:13:31
That's how it happens a lot to people. That's true. Because that's crazy. Also, it was the mid 60s.
01:13:36
So this was before there was awareness about child abuse or anything like that. But it was right on the edge.
01:13:45
Like what you're describing, if it was 1925, I'd be like, oh, okay. But it's so much later than that.
01:13:52
Well, I mean, yeah. Look at spankings. Spanking someday, people are going to be like, that is abuse, straight up abuse.
01:14:01
Yeah. But I mean I feel like up until recently it was like yeah that how you punish your kids Well and also up until recently they didn think what kind of a teacher wants to spank children Yeah Like it needs to turn around where it like it not about these kids behavioral problems
01:14:18
It's about an adult in this position who signed up to be a teacher, who signed up to be around children and can't handle themselves around children.
01:14:25
And reinforcing bad behavior in children and letting them know that the answer to a problem is physical violence.
01:14:35
Yeah. Okay, we're back from that nightmare. I guess we just don't need to say it anymore, even though it's true.
01:14:46
But the Sylvia Likens case is one of the ones that pops into my head randomly of like the kind of suffering that she went through for no reason.
01:14:57
Like, who were these people? It's such a crazy, just truly out of a nightmare kind of story.
01:15:03
Any case updates on that? So, yeah, there's no major case updates on this one. But a couple things. In 2016, the Boone County Child Advocacy Center, which is an Indiana-based nonprofit, was renamed the Sylvia's Child Advocacy Center in honor of Sylvia's memory.
01:15:20
And the organization, quote, provides forensic interviews and victim advocacy for children victims of informed abuse, neglect, maltreatment, and sexual assault, end quote.
01:15:31
So she's getting, you know, recognition there. and also you can check out the movie about this case called an american crime it's from 2007 and
01:15:39
it stars elliot page katherine keener bradley woodford evan peters and more so check out an
01:15:44
american crime i'm sorry but i love evan peters so much yeah remember him from marge of fucking
01:15:51
east town mayor of east town what was he oh he was the he was the detective oh he was so cute
01:15:58
Evan Peters, which I bet in this, he's a real youngster. Yeah, definitely. Anyway.
01:16:03
All right. Well, that's it for this episode. Should we pick a new title other than the brilliant blood murder scene Huh I love to pick a new title This one is kind of that I feel like when we did it we like well it sounds good It does sound good but Yeah it silly
01:16:20
I think it was like, we picked them after we recorded and we were so tired by then
01:16:25
that we were just like, let's get out of here. For sure. So Georgia says in this episode,
01:16:30
cooking and hanging out at home, which is her pointing out on the show, the family who wants to be the fucking mayor.
01:16:37
Yeah. Don't you know about cooking and hanging out at home and being a good parent, which is so hilarious.
01:16:42
I'm just really not into extra jobs. Like, to me, it's like, why are you taking on more,
01:16:48
as someone who does take every fucking thing on, like, be lazy if you have the opportunity.
01:16:53
Like, why wouldn't you be lazy and, like, comfortable? And volunteering for political work.
01:17:00
Right. Where it's like, what's the payoff there? It's going to tear your family apart.
01:17:04
You're just always fighting, always working. Right. Always having to beg for money.
01:17:10
Exactly. Going to galas all the time and fucking announcing things and cutting ribbons.
01:17:16
And you mean, Jesus. Oh, the grocery stores that you have to open over and over.
01:17:22
John's Vaughn. And the other name is, could be Dun Dun Dun. But that's because you bring up Dominic Dunn's involvement in Jandra Levy's case.
01:17:33
And then my brilliant 2016 brain went Dun Dun Dun. Let me explain it. Wait, hold on, because I have a couple questions.
01:17:42
Dun, dun, dun. It is crazy. Dominic Dunn was basically the king of true crime journalism.
01:17:51
Definitely. And true crime, you know, his pieces in Vanity Fair. Yeah. And then him going through it himself.
01:17:57
It's just incredible the kind of work that he did, I think, and stuff. You know, he used to have a series that I loved that he was the host of.
01:18:06
Yeah, I remember that. I think it was about rich people. Yeah. And their stupid crimes.
01:18:10
Yeah. But he's a real giant. Thank you guys for you know being around hanging out all that stuff Yeah We really appreciate you paging back through the photo album with us Yeah it traumatizing and fun It horrifying Look look Listen Just go listen to your voicemail
01:18:30
messages if you don't think it's horrifying. Your outgoing voicemail. What's voicemail,
01:18:35
Karen? You 24-year-olds ask. Don't worry about it. I'm not talking to you. Stay sexy.
01:18:41
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? You think you're in control until you realize you're not.
01:18:57
As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air, many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft.
01:19:04
I thought we were going to die then. The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn.
01:19:11
Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything. New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the iHeart Podcast Network.
01:19:22
Listen to The Knife on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:19:27
When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?
01:19:32
Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy, a weekly podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.
01:19:39
It's Mental Health Month. Let's figure out what actually works. I didn't care about my life circumstance when I listened to that stuff.
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Open your free iHeartRadio app, search DJ Hester Prince Music is Therapy, and start listening now.
01:19:56
Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Moms. So I'm Leanne.
01:20:02
Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hip since high school.
01:20:06
Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later. We're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips.
01:20:11
This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.
01:20:16
With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO.
01:20:22
Well, then you got them. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.