00:00:00
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00:00:32
compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Wireless plan as of January 2026.
00:00:35
For full offer details, visit BoostMobile.com. Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway.
00:00:38
For you, save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point.
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Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Kinder, Ghost Energy, Cottonelle, Ben & Jerry's, and Popsicle.
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Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more.
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Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in-store or online for easy pickup or delivery.
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That's homeserve.com slash podcast. Savings compared to renewal price. Void in Florida.
00:01:52
Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is the show where we take you back to good old 2016 to revisit some of our very first episodes and talk about everything that's changed since and everything that's kind of fucking stayed the same.
00:02:07
I mean, there's a lot of repeats. There's a lot of consistency. So today we are revisiting our 21st episode.
00:02:17
We titled it Because 789, a beloved childhood joke for everybody except for the number nine.
00:02:23
a classic. And now, because of Rewind, we can all be day one listeners. Are you ready? Are you ready to get into this?
00:02:30
Episode 21, we're of age now. I mean, at this point, I think we, in the podcast back then, we probably really think
00:02:39
we know what we're doing. 21 under our boat. We're getting going. Things are looking up for us.
00:02:44
We're really getting it together. All right. Let's listen to part of our intro for episode 21.
00:02:53
Let's get settled in. Well, all right. Let's get cozy and comfy. Light some candles.
00:03:01
Oh, did you start? I think this is it. I think this is the last episode. Do I normally talk like that, Karen?
00:03:08
Kind of presentationally? Cozy and comfy. Do I? Georgia, are you seducing me in your own home?
00:03:16
Oh, welcome. Hi, this is my favorite murder. Karen is taking a drink of water. i'm georgia i don't know that every once in a while hey comes out it feels like i have to do
00:03:29
it sometimes like i don't have a choice get it out of your system hey bye bye um welcome to episode
00:03:38
21 of the podcast that rocks you to sleep at night and then shocks you awake at 3 a.m with
00:03:47
Bad feelings. And yet you still want to be friends with it. We've become, we're now a sleep helping podcast.
00:03:55
We're like the podcast Sleep With Me that I'm obsessed with, except we'll make you stay awake all night.
00:04:00
That's right. So it's for people who don't want to fall asleep ever again. Are you a night shift security guard?
00:04:08
Yeah. You might want to listen to this podcast. Do you have manic depression and you're just going to be up all night anyways?
00:04:13
Then jump on board. Do you have a colicky baby? Are you a murderer? A serial killer?
00:04:21
Are you a burglar? A burglar? Are you a cat burglar? Are you a cat burglar? Let us sneak along the rooftops with you.
00:04:28
We'd love to. Let's do it. Goodbye. I worked today as most Americans did. Not me.
00:04:41
But you did do something. No. Really? Were you in that outfit all day? Not this one.
00:04:47
This is actually cuter than what I was wearing all day. And this is a fucking house dress.
00:04:51
Georgia has a house dress on that looks like something from Bewitched, but hotter.
00:05:00
It's like a key party, like a casual key party outfit. It's like a tomato red with gold brocade, sleeveless, mini house dress.
00:05:10
I mean, they don't make them like that anymore. Karen, I'm trying to seduce you.
00:05:14
Girl, it's working. I don't need a house dress. I just need murder stories. That's the sad truth of it.
00:05:26
I'm trying to think of like, have I ever been to a party or a situation where a guy has talked about this topic we love so much, kind of brought it up themselves.
00:05:37
Like you've bonded. You've been like, I had the best conversation with this guy last night.
00:05:42
Right. Like across a crowded room. Yeah. Gosh. Gersh. I don't think so. I don't either. What is happening over there?
00:05:51
Kev's just playing with these. There's a kitten in the room. Everyone should know this.
00:05:54
George is upping the cat factor by 1000 with a cat a kitten named Kevin Oh my God And he being very loud right now but he so cute He super he looks Georgia won admit that she bought a purebred cat
00:06:08
I did not buy a purebred cat. I did not buy, adopt, don't shop. God damn it. This cat looks so purebred though.
00:06:15
It's weird. He's a Lynx Point Siamese. He's purebred. However, he was found, I don't know, let's say in a dumpster.
00:06:22
Let's say in a tiny cat-sized dumpster. A tiny cat-sized dumpster. He was bottle-fed.
00:06:28
He was bottle-fed by a raccoon. A cat burglar stole him from a purebred breeding place and is now adopting them out.
00:06:36
And then a family of frogs that wear vests raised him down by a taunt. Stop it. That's so cute.
00:06:41
The mom accepted them as her baby. Yep. And Kevin wrote on the mom frog's back until they were like, this hurts.
00:06:50
I got to get rid of this cat. There's George's house. Let's drop them off. Doot, doot.
00:06:54
Here we are. With their lily pad right up. Are we both high? Are we both? Neither of us got high before this.
00:07:02
This is adding to the dream, the sleep podcast. Oh, right. Meandering stories, meandering stories.
00:07:08
We're going to add, we're going to try to add along with all the horrible visuals that
00:07:12
we feed straight into your brain. We're also adding some fun toad in a vest visuals.
00:07:17
Yeah, some like acid visuals, some fucking, let's say you're on peyote. Have you ever done peyote?
00:07:25
No. Is that a thing you've ever done? Oh, God. I've never been offered peyote in my life.
00:07:29
Don't you have to go to the Andes or something to get that shit? Sure. Or be friends with Duncan Trussell or something?
00:07:39
I am friends with him. Oh, I am. Name drop. Sorry if you can't handle it. Are you?
00:07:48
Are you? Okay, we're back. I do remember the red house dress. You do? Orangey red house dress I was wearing.
00:08:01
It's in tatters now, but I don't get rid of anything. So I'm pretty certain I still have it.
00:08:05
Pull that box out of the attic and let's make a quilt out of your old house dress.
00:08:10
Unfortunately, I don't have the foster kitten Kevin anymore. What a cutie he was.
00:08:16
Kevin! He was so cute. I just kept trying to introduce kittens into Elvis's life because I just but every time it would like he'd be like, what are you doing?
00:08:24
I'm an elderly man already. He's like, no, this is not how this works. And I am absolutely in charge of this household.
00:08:30
Right. So three cats in an apartment wasn't going to happen, which is probably for the best.
00:08:35
I mean, yeah. Looking back, right. It's so clear. Yeah. But at the time you were just kind of trying to be like, hey, there are a lot of homeless kittens out there.
00:08:43
I want to help them. Yeah, and like if my cats aren't cuddling, I'm just going to keep introducing other cats until someone starts fucking cuddling.
00:08:49
You know what I mean? Like I don't, I just want to see two animals snuggling. And for some reason I have this like magnetic forced cats that don't cuddle with each other.
00:08:58
They're not, I feel like don't cats kind of have to be related to cuddle? No, no, no, no.
00:09:04
Oh my God, no. Don't get me started on this. It's going to make me cry. Okay. It's just more personality time.
00:09:08
It's personality. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I'm going to cry. Yeah, no crying. Yeah, not yet. Not about that.
00:09:16
This is also when we both, I guess, start to say hi. Hi. Hi. That's close to the intro, but not exactly.
00:09:24
No, and I think the reason we kind of adjusted it is because Hi was actually a quote from Alaska from Drag Race,
00:09:30
and we didn't want to be like fully ripping off someone's actual, you know. Intro.
00:09:35
I don't know. Intro, greeting, whatever. Sure. That's really noble of us. I mean, we're, that's what we're like.
00:09:42
we're just really good people deep down. Truly, as all podcasters are. It's kind of a rule. Okay,
00:09:48
so this episode, we both do, we don't talk about it, but we both end up doing female killers.
00:09:53
Yes. Just randomly. I think it's really funny. In this one, I'm asking you, did you start recording?
00:10:01
Because you know. Again, you're the sound man or Roman sound person, but it's that kind of thing
00:10:09
we're like, I don't even know. Like, we don't know what's going on to the point where it's not like you're going, and
00:10:15
here we go. Right. It's just like, wait, did we start? Did we? I don't know. Is this going?
00:10:19
Do we have equipment? Is it on? I don't know. I don't know because I don't do that for a living.
00:10:24
Right. It's just like how you started our line of merch and just kept a little tally on a piece
00:10:29
of paper. You don't do that for a living. You guys, this was like homegrown punk rock from the very beginning.
00:10:38
We didn't know what we were doing. And we didn't for a long time. But we acted like it.
00:10:42
And that's what's key. And you know what? You acted like it. And that was what truly brought it all together.
00:10:47
Because Jesus Christ, there were reasons to not. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. There's always reasons to not.
00:10:54
And that's why you keep going. Okay. So now we're going to get into the actual stories.
00:11:00
And Georgia went first on this episode. So let's listen to Georgia's story about the Cleveland elementary school shooting.
00:11:07
Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. For you, save days are here now through June 23rd.
00:11:18
Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Kinder, Ghost Energy, Cottonelle, Ben & Jerry's, and Popsicle.
00:11:27
Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event-long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more.
00:11:33
Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in-store or online for easy pickup or delivery.
00:11:39
Restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions. Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
00:11:49
This week on the podcast I sitting down with Lily Chu the author of the Audible original romantic comedy Just Kiss Already It a story about a forensic anthropologist who secretly writes mystery novels an actress who adapts his book into a film and what happens when a meme and a media tour
00:12:07
collide with a slow burn romance. It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Su, and it is an absolute blast.
00:12:16
When you actually hear the performance, you realize that other people are taking your words
00:12:22
and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like the cat in the corner is black.
00:12:27
In my head, it's the cat in the corner is black, not the dog, not the gerbil. But someone else might say it,
00:12:33
the cat in the corner is black. That's always fascinating to me. How they just bring in all these different nuances
00:12:39
and really make it fun and interesting and distinctive. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club
00:12:47
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
00:13:00
When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty.
00:13:08
And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful.
00:13:15
It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results. And then you just go out and live your life.
00:13:21
Meaningful Beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com. I think you're first this week.
00:13:32
I am first. Skippers, it's time to cut back in. Hey, ready? And stop skipping now.
00:13:39
Now. All right. So two things made me want to do this murder, my favorite murder this week.
00:13:45
One of which was I finished an audio book called We Need to Talk About Kevin. Oh.
00:13:52
which was a book about it was a book written fictional book written by the mother
00:13:59
of a kid who had done a school shooting and it was the letter to it was the whole all the letters
00:14:07
were to the father and it was like how they raised this kid and what happened and why he became who
00:14:13
he became and it was really good book and i just finished that okay and then on sunday
00:14:18
morning the fucking Orlando shootings happened. And it was, it's horrific and awful and disgusting.
00:14:25
And so I kind of had, was looking at the Facebook page and found this information that I had never
00:14:32
known about before that I wanted to talk about. The Cleveland elementary school shooting.
00:14:39
Do you know this one? No. Okay. It took place on January 29th, 1979 in San Diego, California.
00:14:48
shots were fired at a public elementary school and the person who was doing the shooting
00:14:55
lived in a house across the street from the school and her name was brenda spencer she was
00:15:02
16 years old holy shit brenda there is the fucking wait can i ask a question is this i don't like
00:15:09
monday i don't like i'm sorry boomtown rants yes is that sorry it's okay i was just so proud it's
00:15:16
That's my favorite. But I don't know the story. I only know that a girl did it and a girl said it.
00:15:21
Okay. So Brenda Spencer, she lived in a house across the street from the school,
00:15:25
and she would become known as the mother of schoolyard massacres, such as Columbine.
00:15:30
And she was like the first school shooter. So on the morning of January 29th, 1979,
00:15:36
she began shooting from her home at children who were waiting outside Cleveland Elementary School, which was across the street from her house.
00:15:44
the first person that she killed was the principal burton rag and he was uh opening the gates to the
00:15:52
school 53 years old ran outside to help the victims and help get rid of the children and
00:15:57
move them inside and he got uh he got shot in the chest and then michael uh shoe i want to say
00:16:04
Schucher, S-U-C-H-A-R, Schucher? Schucher? Schucher. At 56, he was a school custodian, rushed out to help the dying principal, and he was shot.
00:16:18
So those were the two fatalities, but eight children were injured. So then the San Diego police officer, Robert Robb, was the first try up at the scene, and he got a bullet in his neck.
00:16:29
and I've heard conflicting I read conflicting stories that he someone moved a commandeered a
00:16:36
garbage truck and drove it in front of the school because they could tell where the sniper was
00:16:41
and I heard it was this officer who got shot in the neck but others are saying he just arrived and
00:16:45
got shot in the neck so I don't I'm not sure but I don't want to not give him credit if that's the
00:16:50
case so that's so smart yeah right yeah like what a quick action to take that you just block the
00:16:56
shooter. Yeah, I would have never thought of that. And putting yourself in harm's way like that.
00:17:00
Yeah, that's amazing. Whoever thought of it. Yeah. High five. How pissed off was she when
00:17:06
that happened? Yeah. It's like the best move. Yeah. So after firing 30 rounds of ammunition,
00:17:14
Spencer barricaded herself inside her home for like, it was like six hours. So then on a hunch,
00:17:21
a reporter from the local paper called the phone number that was associated with the address.
00:17:26
and a young girl answered. It was Barbara. The reporter asked if she knew where the shots were coming from
00:17:34
and she said her address and the reporter pointed that out. She said, yeah, who do you think's doing the shooting?
00:17:40
And the next question was why? And she said, I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day.
00:17:48
Oh, I weirdly have chills right now. Because also, sorry, but 16, is it such a rough age anyway And that answer is so sad It someone that gave up It someone that yeah doesn understand the levity of what they doing
00:18:08
Is that the right word? It's the opposite, but I understand gravity of what you're doing.
00:18:13
Gravity of what they're doing. That would have sounded so much better if I had gotten that word right.
00:18:19
This is what we're about, not sounding good. My favorite murderer. she spoke with police negotiators
00:18:25
who were telling that telling them that she had shot the telling those they had made easy targets and that's why
00:18:35
she shot them which is so fucking creepy and she was going to come out shooting but ultimately she surrendered
00:18:41
and the police found beer and whiskey bottles around the house but she didn't appear to be
00:18:47
intoxicated oh so So this is probably not the greatest home life, perhaps. Well, 14 years into her sentence, she gave a TV interview, which she said that she was high on whiskey, angel dust, and pot.
00:19:03
What? Hold on. That combination is insane. But here's the thing is that at the time of her arrest, her toxicology reports came back clean.
00:19:13
So is she lying? Either she's lying or the toxicology reports were incorrect. and keep in mind that she's saying these things at a parole hearing
00:19:23
so it wouldn't get her anything to lie no it would it would get her out i mean i you would
00:19:30
think that if she was oh like that's her excuse yes okay but however there but there were those
00:19:35
bottles around the house because her dad was now like a fucking alcoholic but i sorry it's just so
00:19:41
crazy to i just think sure you drink whiskey and then you smoke pot angel dust yeah it's like what
00:19:48
insane bikers do. In San Diego. That was like a suburb back then, right? Yeah. I mean, it's
00:19:54
like a chill beach town. It's like us talking about, like, has anyone ever offered you peyote? No.
00:20:00
And they have ever offered you angel dust? No. Like, you could barely get pot when I was growing up.
00:20:06
That was like, you were so excited when someone's cousin came back from Hawaii or whatever.
00:20:10
And it was almost like, there was this problem. Remember Dare? Was that? Did you have that then?
00:20:14
So Dare was, what was it? dare to keep your kids off drugs drug addicts really engaged
00:20:25
i know mothers against drunk driving basically in the 80s and early 90s there was this
00:20:31
like program to keep kids off drugs called dare on drugs on drugs and i i was in that i was like
00:20:39
in the perfect you know in the epicenter of that thanks nancy ray and and yeah where you had to
00:20:45
pledge, right? Yeah. That you wouldn't do drugs. Yeah. And at the time I was like,
00:20:49
when I was like in sixth grade, I was like, well, I'm never going to do angel dust,
00:20:53
but I kind of want to try pot, you know, but like I thought that would lead to angel dust.
00:20:57
And when I found out like that my parents smoked pot and that like people I knew smoked pot,
00:21:02
it was like, oh, everything's a lie. So I'm just going to do everything, you know?
00:21:07
Wow. Just say something. Yeah. Like no one gets angel dust is my point. Exactly.
00:21:12
It's a crazy, unless her father was some kind of like, Sure. dealer or a biker or like somebody that kind of lived in that fringe life.
00:21:22
But when you do angel dust, you go insane and you have superhuman strength. It sounds like something she would have made up because she didn't know.
00:21:30
Yes. You know what I mean? It sounds like a very fakey, dumb combination. Like saying cocaine would have made more sense, but she probably didn't even know to say that.
00:21:38
Although, if we refer back to the classic film Friday, there is that part where Chris Tucker's pot is laced with angel dust and he ends up in the pigeon coop.
00:21:49
Remember? He's like freaking out. I mean, it happens. But I also don't think you'd be able to shoot a gun very accurately if you were on angel dust.
00:21:58
Also, why would someone put angel dust in pot? Like, you're just spending more money.
00:22:03
Because they're trying to ruin your Rolling Stones concert. Oh, sure. I don't know.
00:22:10
Kitten is going crazy. Okay. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. So her parents had separated before this happened, and she lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, in virtual poverty, and they slept on a single mattress in the living room floor.
00:22:26
Together? Yep. Acquaintances later said that Spencer, that she expressed negative attitudes towards police, and had talked about shooting one.
00:22:34
Teachers described her as introverted. and she started hanging out with other troubled youth and became obsessed with Alice Cooper.
00:22:41
Which like, yeah, which actually he's like a crazy intellectual. It's like so hard to think about people like using him as an excuse.
00:22:48
And he's like an incredible intellectual. And also, isn't he super into golf? Like when he doesn't have makeup on, he's just like kind of an old dude with too long hair.
00:22:58
And that was like performance art too. Like he wasn't even serious about it. yeah but I don't when people try to say that it's like too bad you're making the money off of people
00:23:07
taking it seriously so you have to take it seriously because it's a I've seen Alice Cooper
00:23:12
like I grew up with Alice Cooper being on tv with blood in the corner of his mouth
00:23:15
everyone took it seriously there's nothing performance art about it it's like you're in
00:23:19
a black box theater yeah you can't be like just kidding afterwards yeah okay um I'm really mad
00:23:25
at Owls Cooper. I can tell. Is that your father? I hate you, Dad. I hate you. I will go to the dance.
00:23:32
All right. So in December, which is the month before the shooting happened, a psychiatric evaluation was recommended for her and they said that she should go to a mental
00:23:46
hospital due to her depressed state. But her father refused to give permission. I wanted to go to rehab
00:23:54
I said no, no Dad says it's fine Everything's fine In three months I'm dead, so is everybody else.
00:24:03
I love that song. But so, yeah, I do too. For Christmas, so he said no, he wouldn't let her go to rehab.
00:24:09
And then for Christmas, he gave her a Ruger 1022 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle.
00:24:19
Sorry for everyone who fucking knows about guns that I just butchered that. With a telescope sight and 500 rounds of ammunition.
00:24:27
She had asked for a radio. her father gave her that gun. She asked for a radio for her birthday
00:24:35
and her dad, who had just been told that she should go to psychiatric care. A mental hospital.
00:24:40
Because she was depressed, gave her a gun. Well, he's a real piece of work. I mean, some people shouldn't have children, it turns out.
00:24:48
Fuck, that's heavy. She said later that I felt like he wanted me to kill myself.
00:24:53
She said. Also 500 rounds? Yeah, that's a lot of rounds. I agree. Yeah. In 2001, later, she accused her father of having drunkenly subjected her to beatings and sexual abuse.
00:25:05
But he said the allegations were not true. I don't feel good about a single mattress on the floor in the living room.
00:25:11
Abso-fucking-diddly not. She was tried in as adult. She finally came out, put her gun down, came out.
00:25:18
She was tried as an adult, pled guilty to two counts of murder, an assault with a deadly weapon,
00:25:23
sentenced to prison for 25 years to life. and then in prison she was diagnosed as an epileptic oh i have that i know uh-oh wait
00:25:34
and then and then and she received medication while at california institute for women in chino
00:25:42
california it's her neighborhood right no great um but then later here's the fucking kicker
00:25:50
during tests while she was in custody it was discovered that she had an injury to the temporal
00:25:54
lobe of her brain attributed to her accident on her bicycle. Fucking childhood head injury.
00:26:01
Send them back. Like we said, send them on back. If your kid hits his head. Oh, you know what? I just had a realization that all of the helmet bullshit that for years I'm in
00:26:12
like, this is dumb. And these helicopter parents are crazy. What if, what if they've just wiped
00:26:17
out an entire generation of serial killers by, by making sure children have helmets on all the
00:26:22
time definitely dude i bet you're right that's heavy that's so i mean some will slip through
00:26:27
just because it was meant to be don't even need a head injury they're just like they're like shit
00:26:32
to begin with they're hell bent yeah their parents make it sure that they're fucking just terrible
00:26:36
that is a crazy fucking story injury just like so many serial killers out there yeah
00:26:43
fuck yeah all right um at a hearing in 2001 she said that her father beat and sexually abused her
00:26:52
and she submitted a written statement in which she said that her father had begun fondling her when she was nine and sexually assaulted her virtually
00:26:59
every night. Which is like, why, you know, why didn't you come out with that earlier?
00:27:04
I don't want to doubt her, but it's like, that's a hard thing to talk about when you really did these horrible things.
00:27:11
she could have just maybe dissociated so that it was this, she's in this world now where she's killing people.
00:27:16
It's like, everything is a cry for help. And maybe she was on Angel Dust. And maybe she didn't understand the connection between her father sexually abusing her and her wanting to die.
00:27:27
And so. And kill other people. Killing people. The rage that she felt. I didn't mean to victim blame.
00:27:32
And I totally. No, no, no, no. We're just talking about theories. And here's how you.
00:27:37
Here's. So the father never admitted to any of this. But. But. He was visiting her in a juvenile detention facility after her arrest.
00:27:49
and he met a girl who resembled Brenda but was younger, they went on to have a sexual relationship and he married her.
00:27:59
Ew. So clearly he has a fetish for fucking underage girls. He does not like it. Like his daughter.
00:28:05
Yeah. He's not against it. Nope. That's like enough proof, I feel like. Hell yeah.
00:28:11
That it's true. Oh, that's insanely dark. In 2009, the parole board ruled that she would be denied parole and wouldn't be considered for 10 years.
00:28:23
So she'll be eligible again in 2019. Okay. But in a 2001 statement, she acknowledged her possible role as the inspiration for later generations of angry kids saying, she said, quote,
00:28:39
With every school shooting, I feel I'm partially responsible. What if they got the idea from what I did?
00:28:45
and of course finally the song I don't like Mondays written by Bob Geldof for his band
00:28:54
Boomtown Rats was released later that year based on that song and I just want to go ahead and say
00:28:59
that this is everyone listening this is our new karaoke song I don't like Mondays yeah uh that
00:29:06
song I remember in high school finding out that that was about a school a girl that did a school
00:29:10
shooting and it was just like the most fascinating thing it changes that song completely I just
00:29:15
assumed it was british though since boomtown rats and that guy or is he he's irish he's i think he's
00:29:21
irish is he he is not from here um but uh yeah i just assumed it all happened in the uk yeah i'll
00:29:29
safely say that yeah no but they were they were playing at the time in san diego i think when her
00:29:35
trial was going on they were playing in san diego oh wow so they kept seeing headlines of her being
00:29:40
the, I don't like Mondays girl. See, that super bums me out because, and maybe this is just a
00:29:47
bias because it's a female shooter. It's like a 16 year old girl where I just so understand the
00:29:53
mindset no matter what But then fact after fact on top of that is like that girl did not have a chance No she didn have a chance i wish she had had you know clearly some people cared about her that they took her to a psychiatrist
00:30:06
and that they they put her in like a school for or they put her in with counselors who who were
00:30:14
there for troubled youth they tried yeah and her fucking shitty parents just wouldn't let her have
00:30:19
that like what if he had said okay and she had gone to this mental institution i know she would
00:30:23
and fine. Also, it's so, um, I just would like to remind us all of the garbage truck part. Cause I
00:30:29
really liked that part. What a badass. Like hell yeah. They probably saved so many lives that day.
00:30:34
Seriously. And just kind of like blocking off the whole thing of like, no, you're not doing this
00:30:38
anymore. Like that's so badass. It's brave and fucking. It's just quick thinking and like sharp
00:30:45
problem solving. Totally. I like it. Um, wow, that's heavy. Yeah. That's fucked up. Right. So
00:30:51
So that's the Cleveland Elementary School shooting. Yeah, we're back. That was heavy.
00:31:01
That was this is one of the stories, especially in California, that's just like, yeah, can't believe this actually happened.
00:31:07
Well, it sucks so bad. I mean, say this till the fucking faces turn red. But the fact that this happened in 1979, we're talking about I'm talking about it in 2016.
00:31:18
And it's still a topic that we must discuss and happens all the fucking time. Yes.
00:31:24
I will say, based on the details of this case, I do think the father would have been held accountable nowadays.
00:31:31
And I really like that the parents of shooters are being treated, you know, as perpetrators as they should be.
00:31:38
So this father who allegedly abusive father who bought her a very depressed daughter that he refused to let get treatment, then bought her a gun, a semi-automatic rifle for Christmas when she had asked for a radio.
00:31:54
Yeah. Like he should be held responsible. So should she, of course. But yeah, no, no, you're right. There's like you can track how this happened and how clearly it was a path that could have been diverted multiple times. I do want to say, though, back then, but especially now, the idea it's like whoever's responsible on that end.
00:32:17
our leadership and politicians in this country who have politicized this event like it is one
00:32:26
side against another. Or it's political at all. That it's political at all, as opposed to we are
00:32:32
letting children die at public schools, we are letting teachers and children get murdered at
00:32:37
school. It's reprehensible and insane, and it has to stop. And it's the idea of this concept
00:32:47
has gone so far and we have been forced to get we have gotten used to it it is crazy other
00:32:56
countries look at us and go this is disgusting yeah well what's so crazy too is that it's become
00:33:01
a conversation these manipulative people do this thing where they make the conversation about
00:33:06
something else so you're yelling about this when really that's not what it's about gun it's not
00:33:10
about gun rights they've politicized it and made us start yelling about gun rights when really that's
00:33:16
not what this is about. This is about children not being slaughtered. You know what I mean? Like
00:33:22
when you're having the wrong conversation, the right conversation never gets brought up.
00:33:27
Correct. And I think it's like they're saying you cannot have any adjustments on this because
00:33:32
any adjustment is a betrayal of my experience. A violation somehow. Well, as a woman in the year
00:33:40
2024, let me talk to you about rights being violated left, right and center. Like, no, you've got to make adjustments. And the idea that you don't want to, to the detriment of
00:33:55
children just trying to learn, like, you know, my sister and I have had multiple conversations.
00:34:00
She's been a grammar school teacher for 30 years. She teaches first graders, like,
00:34:07
shooter drills and lockdown drills. It's a part of her life and it's absolutely disgusting. It's
00:34:13
like that kind of thing where we should stop adjusting to it and normalizing it. Okay. So
00:34:19
does this case, getting back to the story you just told, does this case have any updates now?
00:34:24
It does. So in August of 2022, Brenda Spencer waived her right to a parole hearing until 2025,
00:34:32
which I guess some people do because they believe they won't be able to get parole anyway.
00:34:37
So at the moment now, it's 2024, she's still incarcerated at the California Institute for
00:34:42
Women in Chino, California, but she'll have another parole hearing next year. Yeah. I mean, I think in the story you say that she is known as like the grandmother of school
00:34:53
shootings. So I'm sure she's like, I'm probably not ever going to get out of here.
00:34:58
Well, she does talk about that. I think I mentioned that, you know, That every time she hears about a school shooting, she's like, I am somehow also responsible for this.
00:35:06
So it does seem like she has some remorse. Oh. All right. So now it's your story.
00:35:13
This might be one of the first times you were like, let's do an old timey story so we're not like, so it's not so fresh.
00:35:20
This is the kind of thing where it's like clearly we're starting to process what we're doing, how we're doing it, the effect of it, all of those things, which is pretty interesting.
00:35:30
I mean, part of the reason it's kind of hard to look back. And then it's also kind of interesting because it's like, well, then how do you pivot if you're like, this is a concern I have all the time because, you know, we don't want to make mistakes that we made in the early days.
00:35:45
Right. And so suddenly it's like, but there are stories to tell and there is a validity in telling them.
00:35:51
Yeah. Like there's an evolution. So here is Karen story about the deadly nurse nicknamed Jolly Jane Jane Toppin Hey there it Ryan Seacrest for Safeway For you save days are here now through June 23rd
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Restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions. Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
00:36:38
This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Lily Chu, the author of the Audible original romantic comedy, Just Kiss Already.
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It's a story about a forensic anthropologist who secretly writes mystery novels,
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an actress who adapts his book into a film, and what happens when a meme and a media tour collide with a slow burn romance.
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It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Su, and it is an absolute blast. When you actually hear the performance, you realize that other people are taking your words,
00:37:11
and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like, the cat in the corner is black.
00:37:16
In my head, it's the cat in the corner is black, not the dog, not the gerbil. But someone else might say it, the cat in the corner is black.
00:37:24
That's always fascinating to me, how they just bring in all these different nuances
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All of that available at MeaningfulBeauty.com. Well, I took it back because of...
00:38:52
I kind of wanted to do this anyway because when we talk about things, it's so funny that we fully do this podcast,
00:38:59
love it, enjoy it, and yet bum ourselves out every week after we talk about our topics.
00:39:04
So I was like, how about a little distance and we go back in history a little bit
00:39:07
And we don't have to be so present day and so have to feel it so much. So I went all the way back to 1885.
00:39:16
So I have no feelings about that. Who gives a fuck? No, I don't give a shit. Weird outfits and like high neck dresses and shit.
00:39:24
Racism. All kinds of isms. The nurse, the deadly nurse, Jane Toppin is my person.
00:39:33
You may have heard of her. she it's okay to laugh at this because it's from the 1850s that's right anything before
00:39:44
1900 you can laugh and laugh she was an Irish immigrant whose mother died of tuberculosis
00:39:51
when she was very young and whose father a tailor was a well known alcoholic and eccentric who some
00:39:59
say after her mother's death tried to sew his eyelids shut because he was so insane with grief and alcoholism.
00:40:09
Oh, what does that have to do with anything? I mean, it's just like, this is, it's just painting the picture of where we're even starting
00:40:17
with this girl who's a child when this happens. That is, some articles say it happened.
00:40:25
Some say it was a rumor and it was just basically everyone knew this dad was a nut.
00:40:30
That's how fucking crazy everything is. He was super crazy. yet. It speaks more just to him and his reputation. The crazy tailor up the street. So a few years
00:40:40
later, that dad drops off. Her name at the time was Honor Kelly. And she's six years old and her
00:40:50
sister is eight. And the dad drops them off at the Boston Female Asylum, which is a girl's
00:40:57
orphanage. Documents from the asylum note that the two girls were, quote, rescued from a very
00:41:03
miserable home. Oh, no. So, yeah. So, even if he wasn't crazy enough to do something as
00:41:09
totally saw the Saw movie series as so his own eyelids, it was bad news. So, after two years at that orphanage, Honora Kelly, if I'm saying her name right,
00:41:22
was placed as an indentured servant in the home of Mrs. Anne C. Toppin of Lowell, Massachusetts.
00:41:29
So she was like eight or ten. Eight years old. Eight years old. Can you imagine having a little servant?
00:41:36
An eight-year-old indentured servant. Maybe like, can you go get me my fucking, run my bath, eight-year-old?
00:41:41
Or like probably scrub the dishes and like lift shit. I mean, like they didn't care.
00:41:45
This was 1885. Oh, that's so sick. They didn't give a fuck. Yeah, kids were just like little humans.
00:41:51
Yeah this is when they were like get them in the factory because their little arms can go into the machines It was dark Dude This is also why I love Charles Dickens because all of his stories include all that like child labor shit That true to life
00:42:05
Roughly around this time. Yeah. Where it was like, we wouldn't know if it weren't for like those stories or be like the last thing that would ever happen to most children these days, at least in America.
00:42:17
Yeah. Kind of. Anyway. Okay. So, Honora was never officially adopted by the Toppins, but she took their surname and eventually became known as Jane Toppin.
00:42:32
Which is so weird that you're like, I'm not part of the family. I'm just your fucking servant, so I'm taking your last name.
00:42:39
Yeah. I'm your lifelong child servant living in your house. So, in 1885, she began training to be a nurse at Cambridge Hospital.
00:42:50
So during her residency, she used her patients as guinea pigs in experiments with morphine and atrophine.
00:43:02
So she would basically go into patients who are like on a morphine drip and she would give them atrophine, which I'm pretty sure is like an upper.
00:43:14
oh uh so she would play back and forth with sending them out and bringing them back
00:43:20
over and over just let them go to sleep yeah no she because she basically got sexual she got
00:43:28
aroused sexually from seeing people be brought to the brink of death and then come back and then go
00:43:33
back what the fuck does that have to do with sex well so i think this might be shedding a light on
00:43:39
some fucked up shit that happened to her beforehand somewhere in the past. I, if there's a book about her, I will read it because she, some shit happened.
00:43:52
So she would do that to these patients and then get, she, cause she, you know, like wanted
00:43:59
to see like how it affected them, but also would get into bed with them and hold them
00:44:05
as it was happening. She told police after her arrest that she got a sexual thrill from being near patients when they were being next to patients when they were near death, coming back to life and then dying again.
00:44:20
So this is by her own admission that this got her off. Which is, you know, everybody's into something.
00:44:28
Aren't they though? so she would get she would administer the drug and then she'd get into bed with them and hold
00:44:36
them close to her as they die what uh-huh uh and then this article says that this is rare for
00:44:43
female serial killers they usually kill for material reasons um sexist bullshit uh or that the on average it's not sexual satisfaction that's that's man's domain
00:44:59
yeah um which you know and so in a way i'm proud of jane because she broke that glass ceiling yeah
00:45:05
and did and she got hers um sorry that's wrong uh so she didn't get caught i guess because she
00:45:14
was recommended for um massachusetts general hospital in 1889 which this article says is
00:45:20
prestigious and um there she killed a couple more people um and then she was actually killing people
00:45:27
like like because it sounds like she was bringing them back but certain people she wasn't she did
00:45:32
she would bring them back a couple times but ultimately let them die and that's when that's
00:45:36
what got her off oh okay so it was like she would play with it and that would be like you know um
00:45:42
But I guess didn't get caught and kind of was able to cover it up. I read a thing about how she kind of messed with the charts.
00:45:49
So everything was, you know, it was back then. It was just like, yeah, people die, whatever.
00:45:53
And I think no one would suspect a woman. No one would suspect a nurse. You know.
00:46:00
So she goes to Mass General and then kills more people and then gets fired. So probably like someone was sharp and on it and a little bit like,
00:46:09
too many people have died under your watch. So then she went back to Cambridge, but she got dismissed for prescribing opiates recklessly, which is like, how is a nurse prescribing anything?
00:46:22
But I guess that's how they did it back then. She sounds fun. She sounds like she parties and she forces other people to party.
00:46:29
Sure. To their death. To death. Just like a fraternity. So then she, of course, what's her natural next step if she gets fired as a nurse at a hospital?
00:46:42
Private nurse? Private nursing is exactly right, Georgia. That's right, girl. Mind the killer right here.
00:46:47
That's right. So she flourished as a private nurse despite complaints of petty thefts.
00:46:57
So Jane couldn't handle her shit. She had her hands everywhere. But she's a good nurse.
00:47:02
But you know what? She gives me a bath real good. So then as a private nurse, that's when she really starts her poisoning spree.
00:47:11
Wow. In 1895, she killed her landlords, which is a great solution. We've all been there.
00:47:19
In 1899, she killed her foster sister, Elizabeth, with strychnine, which is, I think, a very painful way to go.
00:47:27
Yeah. It's no morphine atrophine ride. It's no nighty night. It's no nighty night good morning.
00:47:34
Yes. in 1901 she moved in with a fan of the Davis family because the elderly patriarch was Alden Davis and his wife had died and so she was there to take
00:47:54
care of him in his old age well it turns out she killed his wife that's why she got the job. Holy shit.
00:48:03
So within weeks, she had killed the patriarch of the family, Alden Davis, and two of his daughters.
00:48:12
Within weeks. Honey, you're being so obvious. Honey, pace yourself. Dude, pace yourself.
00:48:18
This is a marathon, not a sprint. Like one per family is what you get. I mean, you do know
00:48:24
people catch on to mass murdering an entire family. Yeah. So after that happened, she moved back to her hometown and began courting her late foster sister, Elizabeth's husband.
00:48:37
So she's like, took... I thought you said hoarding. She was hoarding into herself.
00:48:42
She was hoarding. It was all over the house. So... That's shitty. She then kills his sister and then poisons him so she could earn his love by nursing him back to health.
00:49:00
For fuck's sake. And then when that didn't work, she poisoned herself to try to garner his sympathy.
00:49:09
Actually, that's kind of smart. But it didn't work. Okay. And so he cast her out of the house, which is something people did in the late 1800s.
00:49:18
She was cast out. Even though she was sick? Well, she got over it. Yeah. Because she probably gave herself the tiniest little bit of strychnine.
00:49:27
Snicky snack of strychnine. Just put a little bit on top of her biscuit. So the rest of the Davises who hadn't been terribly murdered in that house
00:49:37
ordered a toxicology exam on the youngest daughter that had died. And they found that she had been poisoned.
00:49:45
And so they put a police detail on good old Jane Toppin. And on October 26, 1901, she was arrested for murder.
00:49:56
And by 1902, she confessed to 31 murders. Holy shit. Yeah, girl. And she's quoted, this is one of the reasons that I picked this story.
00:50:07
And it just, it made me laugh. It kind of makes me like her. There's something about this that I'm being a little ridiculous.
00:50:16
Because the victim's family, it's like three generations later. So it's like... Right.
00:50:22
There's no guilt. No. Angry letter from a Davis. Yeah. How dare you? So she was quoted.
00:50:31
She told the cops that her ambition was to, quote, to have killed more people, helpless people, than any other man or woman who ever lived.
00:50:41
wow it's what she wanted and she tried her best what does she know like did she have a reason why
00:50:48
like was she did she think she was helping hopeless people i don't think i think there's
00:50:52
some angel of death nurse types that do think they're helping or like the doctor that i did
00:50:58
peter robert peter pinkerton pinker woodward richard richard word yeah pink richard word yeah
00:51:08
Um, that guy, I think was trying to convince himself. It was like, if they're a little bit older, take them out before they suffer.
00:51:16
Yeah. But he was getting like early 70 year olds. Yeah. No, he, I mean, I guess I was saying he was probably rationalizing it to himself a little
00:51:24
bit, but that couldn't have been the real reason. But um this one no she I think she just got literally got off on helpless people and killing people and and taking advantage of helpless people which is the creepiest damn dude i bet like there got to be something like by the
00:51:41
time you're six and you've lived in this fucking depraved fucked up household world and then you
00:51:46
move to a fucking school for girls in boston so it's you know probably real fucked up yeah you
00:51:52
just don't have any empathy anymore i mean hit yourself in the head with a swing at that point
00:51:57
Because you're Dundee. Yep. Her sister, her older sister stayed in that orphanage like a couple years longer than her.
00:52:06
And then basically eventually became a prostitute and died of alcoholism in the gutter.
00:52:12
So she got the better of the two lives. She really, she went out and she made a life for herself.
00:52:17
but I feel like yeah those those the Kelly family of the of the Taylor the famous crazy Taylor
00:52:26
uh Kelly they didn't have much of a chance there was dark Angela's ashes style darkness don't date
00:52:33
anyone ever like that's don't invite anyone into your home easy for you to say you're married he
00:52:39
could be a fucking serial killer for all I know what if he was he's not he's totally not he's not
00:52:45
And if he is, what a great episode that'll be. I've had a great run. You've had a great life.
00:52:51
He gave me everything. You've had some great nightgowns. Up until the point that he murdered you, he has been so good to you.
00:52:57
Yeah. If he murders me without me knowing that it's him that murdered me, then I die happy.
00:53:01
Oh, my God. You'll just go out in your sleep? Yeah. Like an ax in the back of your head?
00:53:05
Sure. Listen, on June 23rd, 1902. No, no, no. This is the end of it. Okay. she was found not guilty by reason of insanity
00:53:17
at the barnstable county courthouse but she was committed for life in taunton insane hospital
00:53:24
and then she died august 17th 1938 so she lived in the mental hospital for quite some time
00:53:33
what would you give to go fucking have a chit chat with her just be like listen jane hi i know that's not your real name jane
00:53:39
she's like here you want a sneaky snack no thanks no i brought my home in the ziploc bag just want to know what happened did your dad sew his eyes shut with leather shoelaces
00:53:51
i'm adding that part because it's so disgusting he was a tailor so i bet they were clean stitches
00:53:56
i bet i bet he did it real quick and it was only like 12 bucks which is 24 bucks in our in today's standards in the post uh that's crazy what was her name
00:54:08
Her name's Jane Toppin. Fuck, dude. And I'm sure there's much more to know about her.
00:54:16
I really do want to read like a full-on book. I'm sorry I can't give you all of the...
00:54:21
No, that's a good sum. I feel like there's lots more information to be had. I just don't have it.
00:54:25
How pissed are the Toppins that she moved in with? They're like, we got to change our fucking name now because this is our legacy.
00:54:30
Well, also, yeah, you know what? Too bad then maybe don't hire eight-year-old indentured servants, you dicks.
00:54:36
Actually, yeah, you're right. You deserve all of it and more. You deserve your badness.
00:54:40
Also, what if something happened to her in that, like that's where it kicked off.
00:54:44
Like she was like, everything's terrible. Everything's terrible. Okay, now I'm in this orphanage.
00:54:48
Okay, well, at least I have this job as an eight-year-old. And then things really kick off at the Toppins house.
00:54:54
It's like rape city. Yeah, or like dark. I mean, what? Who hires an eight-year-old indentured servant?
00:55:02
Yeah. You creep, you old rich creeps. Yeah. god damn it yeah everything is fucked i don know i see that i don know you see the positive i see the light at the end of the tunnel
00:55:18
i guess she probably lived longer than anyone else did i also think of like what if you're
00:55:21
laying in the hospital and you're like you feel terrible and then you're like oh yeah morphine
00:55:26
drip yeah and then you're like whoa now i'm on speed and you're like this hot nurse let's pretend
00:55:31
she's hot this hot nurse is laying next to me fuck yeah she actually isn't bad looking there's
00:55:35
There's a really great picture of her on Wikipedia. And she's actually attractive looking, but there is, she got the kind of like, she got
00:55:42
the eyes where you're like, oh, you don't want to be in the bathroom with her at the
00:55:45
same time. She's one of those people that, you know, she'd immediately start talking to you real
00:55:48
close. Crazy eyes. Can I borrow your mascara? No. No, you can't. Three steps back, Jane.
00:55:56
Yeah. We're not doing this. We're not best friends immediately. No. And that's not sanitary.
00:56:03
That's crazy. That's a good one. I like old ones. I do too. Sometimes it's a nice break.
00:56:11
Yeah, we should do a couple. We should throw them in there because it's been real depressing lately.
00:56:14
I know. Let's do, you know what? Do you want to do next week a theme of like really, really old ones?
00:56:19
Like weirdly from the 1500s or something? Oh, like oldie times? Yeah. Like weird, old, like,
00:56:27
did you ever see In the Name of the Rose with Sean Connery? No. It's a real good movie about,
00:56:32
it's Sean Connery and Christian Slater, actually. What? Those two people don't belong together.
00:56:36
I know. It works. They're monks. And they go to this creepy, I mean, I don't even know.
00:56:42
It could be a much earlier year. I don't know anything. It's like the Dark Ages.
00:56:46
And they go to this monastery where priests are. Is it a monastery? That's nuns.
00:56:54
They go to where priests live because these priests keep dying in weird ways. And they have to investigate.
00:57:01
Sean Connery, I think it's during the Spanish Inquisition. Whenever that was. I love all that shit.
00:57:06
Me too. And the first time I saw it, I was in high school, but I was like, this is fucking fascinating.
00:57:11
Because it was back when murder was a little bit normal. Yeah. And you didn't live very long.
00:57:18
So it wasn't like you took a ton out of their lives. Right. But there have always been serial killers.
00:57:26
Yeah. Let's do, let's do, let's say the 1500s and then do anything around there.
00:57:31
Okay. Like between 13 and 17. Let's say the 1500s, then get within a 700 year mark of that.
00:57:42
Okay, we're back. Karen, any case updates on this very old case? Jane Toppin died in 1938.
00:57:50
That's one. It is funny to think about that it is an interest of like historical true crime.
00:57:59
And like, oh, this is something that human beings have been doing to each other since the dawn of man.
00:58:04
And we can be talking about this in a way that feels a little less risky or, you know, a little less like we're going to mishandle something.
00:58:13
Which is cool. But then also it's like it's very strange where we've done, is it Harold Chipman?
00:58:20
I mean, like, yeah, it's like there's these repeat stories of certain types of serial killers or mass murderers where you think of it only as starting now or starting in the 80s or something.
00:58:33
And it's like, oh, no, Jane was Jane. They think she might have killed 100 people.
00:58:38
I think it is. Yeah. Wild. I mean this is like exactly why Buried Bones is such a good show too I think It such a popular show is because people want to hear about these you know that things were just as fucking bad in the past
00:58:51
Well, and if you haven't listened to Buried Bones, you absolutely should. Not just because we're fans of Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes, but the idea of people taking modern day like forensic science and then Kate's historical like research brain and applying them to these old cases that up until this point have just kind of been sitting there.
00:59:14
We are imagining that they're just sitting there. It's like, wait, you could move forward on this.
00:59:19
this could be solved or it could be we could get to an actual answer. Yeah, analyzing it with like, you know, today's science.
00:59:27
Pretty cool. Fascinating. Yeah. All right. Well, is that it? Oh, I think it's this episode was originally titled Because 789,
00:59:39
but we have some options of what it actually could be named. Okay. So sleep helping podcast, which I think it kind of is. I hear from a lot of people that I meet who listen that they fall asleep listening to it or at least try to.
00:59:53
It's very romantic. I'm very honored. I'm always wearing a tomato red house dress as I podcast. Sleep helping. Now I need a sleep helping podcast.
01:00:03
There's also the title Girl, It's Working, which is me saying to you that you're trying to seduce me by wearing that red house dress.
01:00:11
And I'm letting you know, yes, girl, I see you. I mean, this isn't sexy, by the way.
01:00:15
This is a grandma. House dresses are like your grandma's caftan muumuu. And this is that, but like my knees are maybe showing.
01:00:24
So there's nothing seductive about it. It didn't really seem to be at the time. I think that's the brilliance of our comedy.
01:00:30
There's a lot of opposite C comedy. Oh. I love it. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind.
01:00:37
We appreciate it so much. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
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