00:00:00
This is exactly right. that may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall
00:00:33
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know the famous author Roald Dahl.
00:00:42
He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? Neither did I.
00:00:49
You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:00:54
All episodes are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
00:00:58
What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:01:06
Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How much do you weigh, Wanda?
00:01:11
Right now, I'm about 130. I'm at 183. We should race. No, I want to leave here with my original hips.
00:01:17
On the podcast to match up with L'Aleah, I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests.
00:01:22
On a recent episode, I sat down with undisputed boxing champ, Claressa Shields, and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard,
00:01:29
the art of trash talk and what it really means to be ladylike. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the Matchup with Aaliyah, and listen now.
00:01:36
Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network. Hello.
00:01:58
Welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. A rewind. It's Wednesday. And that means we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary, all new updates, which I don't think there can be old updates, and insights about one of the old shows we did long ago.
00:02:15
That's right. One of the old eps. And today we're looking back at episode 33, which we actually named What About Mimi?
00:02:22
She's been a big part of this podcast for nine whole years, that Mimi. That's right. She's holding on, too.
00:02:28
She's living through it. Her and Frank. So join us today as we take you back to the 252nd day of 2016.
00:02:36
That's right. Thursday, September 8th. And now we can all be day one listeners. So let's listen to the intro of episode 33, What About Mimi?
00:02:48
Hi. Hi. Oh, no. That's how we started it this week. hi everybody hi are you there hello hey that's karen who's this that's karen oh and that's georgia
00:03:02
thank you these are our voices if you can't tell them apart oh yeah you do yours okay hi this is
00:03:08
georgia i gasp into the microphone a lot hi this is karen i sing and uh a lie and this is my favorite murder uh which is a podcast where we talk about murders that happen
00:03:23
that interest us and intrigue us and hopefully uh make your time at work in the swimming pool
00:03:31
or on a darkened road while you take a walk go by a little bit faster you're welcome
00:03:36
goodbye oh that was it it's such an effort to do like an official beginning of this
00:03:45
fucking podcast let's get into it let's fucking get into it let's pass it all by
00:03:48
housekeeping well so jacob okay so this is the thing we wanted to talk about that i said don't
00:03:53
fucking talk to me about until our podcast that's right she's very stern i'm very stern so jacob
00:03:58
wetterling that there has bought his this uh what is he 13 year old kid who went he was kidnapped he
00:04:06
was kidnapped it was him his brother and a friend they were riding their bikes to the store and a
00:04:10
guy held held them a gunpoint and told the other two to run away and took jacob 1989 which we have
00:04:18
said many times that the 80s are going to be under arrest for being fucking shitty. It was not a good
00:04:23
time for us as children. Well, speaking of, I just watched a documentary that is now on Netflix over
00:04:29
the weekend called Who Took Johnny? I stared at that all weekend going, watch it, Karen. This is
00:04:35
supposed to be your thing. And I couldn't bring myself to watch it. Why? Because I've heard them
00:04:39
talk about it on last podcast on the left. And it is so dark and it's so creepy and it is so not
00:04:46
your average kidnapping i just didn't want to have to take it in i agree there's a lot of
00:04:52
information the thing i took away from it uh hold on um the johnny god i'm fucking running
00:05:00
the thing i took away from it is that his mother and like this is the only positive thing is the
00:05:07
biggest badass in the fucking world so the whole thing like kind of centers follows her around and
00:05:13
what she had to go through like when her son got kidnapped and when the police 72 hour waiting
00:05:21
period for this little boy who in the dark on his paper route in the morning his his papers were left
00:05:30
behind his adorable dachshund which would left was left behind which why would you do that and
00:05:35
they said they thought he ran away so she had to go to great lengths for years and years and became
00:05:41
an advocate just like John Walsh's but without a TV show for children and it's amazing what she's
00:05:48
done I can I can take it in You got to watch it and I just I so tired I so tired I sorry No that okay Well the Franklin cover it comes into play It so hard to believe I have such a hard time with so many of these Like there two things One of them
00:06:06
is that a guy gets arrested and says that he was one of the people who took Johnny Gosh and he became
00:06:14
a sex slave. Right. And the other thing is that the mom says that she saw him, Johnny,
00:06:20
as an adult, as an adult came to her door. Right. And those two things, like if you believe them
00:06:26
both, it's a fucking insane story. If you don't, then it's a fucking insane story because
00:06:32
people are crazy. Yeah. Everything about it is, you know, it it's, if, if it was just everything
00:06:40
peeled away of just the facts that you actually know, it's an intense tragedy of just a child
00:06:46
disappearing. There's, it's the, it's the worst case scenario because then you're a grieving
00:06:51
parent who never gets relief and what that must do to you. But then there's also the thing of,
00:06:57
it's just like, I think the reason people like stranger things or whatever, it's that thing of,
00:07:01
well, then you must be crazy if you are in grief to this degree. And of course with the mothers,
00:07:07
with women, it's always, you're crazy. And so a woman trying to get answers and get her child
00:07:13
help and get some action when she's being deemed crazy, which is the ultimate stamp that people can
00:07:19
negate you and your voice with. Yeah. She was saying that too. Like men, men are stern, but
00:07:25
women are shrill, you know? Yeah. It's the patriarchy. It's the, it's the standard bullshit.
00:07:30
And yet she was able to change laws and be an advocate for children who have gone missing
00:07:39
and turn her grief into something useful and worthwhile. Not that grief is not those things, but.
00:07:47
No, that's great. That's amazing. That's a huge up swing. She's amazing. Yeah, I definitely, I know it's a hard,
00:07:56
it's a hard case, but it's a really good documentary. Fine, I'll watch it. Fine, fine, fine.
00:08:02
Quit your four jobs that you have and stay home and watch Who Took Johnny. Here's what I did too.
00:08:08
And but sorry, we started that by mentioning that Jacob Wetterling's remains were finally found.
00:08:14
So his parents have rest. And there was a lot of people who sent us that. It makes me really happy that people send us those articles.
00:08:21
And they're so, you know, enthusiastically. Oh, it's such a nice idea to think that after all these years, those at least at the very least, those parents have a little bit of rest.
00:08:31
Yeah. And a little bit like it just at least they know where he is. Well, I was so I read that about him being found and they hadn't released a lot of details about it. Now there's more stuff coming out like who like the guy confessed to it and that's how they found the body. But so the whole time I was watching Who Took Johnny, I was just in all these twists and turns that maybe was this and it could have been this and he might be still alive and an adult and all these things.
00:08:56
And I couldn't help but just like picture his, this sad, his bones buried somewhere remote as in the exact same way he looked when he got taken and these crazy stories of what happened that are just not true.
00:09:15
And in the meantime, these lonely bones somewhere, it just made me sad. I know it's, it's so tragic.
00:09:22
It's heavy, heavy shit. That's why I'm going to clumsily Segway now into My next piece of housekeeping
00:09:30
Because let's not live there forever I'm sorry, did I get too dark? Not at all, no, this is what we like
00:09:36
But we can't just like, you know We have to continue I have an apology to make For anyone who heard me
00:09:45
Talk shit about the British procedural rosemary and thyme Because What I did this weekend was watch
00:09:52
probably 20 episodes of Rosemary and Thyme, which is a hilarious, it's not supposed to be hilarious,
00:09:59
but I found it so enjoyable, so relaxing. It's two middle-aged British women who are gardeners,
00:10:07
and they keep getting hired. It's very murder-she-roady, except there's two of them.
00:10:12
These two are so enjoyable to watch. The murders, which is ludicrous. There's always two murders.
00:10:20
Everywhere they go, people are dropping like flies. No one cares. They're never suspected.
00:10:25
But but half of more than half of the show takes place in the most gorgeous gardens you've ever seen.
00:10:32
So there's a real like you can see them aiming at like probably like a 60 year old lady who's going to sit in her chair at night, knit, eat some candy and watch this show.
00:10:41
That sounds fucking amazing. I was that lady this weekend and I fucking loved it.
00:10:46
I was so relaxed. You have to see it. But one time someone asked me about British Procedurals and someone recommended Rosemary and Thyme.
00:10:53
And oh, was I flippant about how that was grandma. Grandma crime show and I don't care.
00:11:01
Well, I apologize. Whoever I said that to, I am 1000% wrong. I love Rosemary and Thyme with the best of them.
00:11:08
And Pam Ferris and I wrote their names down because Felicity Kendall and Pam Ferris are the two stars.
00:11:17
they're so goddamn good and pam ferris went on to star in a show called call the midwife which i
00:11:22
also love a lot which one was she she is the nun that wears the habit all the time she's like all
00:11:27
business nun she looks like she looks like every one of my family i love that show call the midwife
00:11:32
i love call the midwife and she's she's like holds it down on there so she's been on british tv for
00:11:38
like 40 years it sounds like a combination of uh murder she wrote and the great british bake-off
00:11:44
Yes, where you're just kind of being soothed by British voices, a little violence, gorgeous flowers.
00:11:51
I mean, you can't have one without the other. And you shouldn And also that they what I love is in a British procedural you will watch them casually drinking tea And I just love the fact that people cut out time in the day to drink tea and eat cookies
00:12:08
I think there's bourbon in there. Why am I just saying that because I just had bourbon in there?
00:12:12
I mean, it's probably everywhere. I mean. Deep down. I mean. As you uncapul. This is all just like vodka.
00:12:21
100 grain vodka. other housekeeping housekeeping i think the rosemary and thyme apology was my number one
00:12:29
housekeeping pretty much this week that was correction corner yeah that was a huge correction
00:12:36
because also once again i've gotten it wrong with england oh hey we're in entertainment weekly oh hey
00:12:43
guess what right we just found this out tonight yeah someone uh very nice here i'll look them up
00:12:49
give them a yield shout out they were like a stage mom that i've never had that gave a shit
00:12:56
where they it's d train of course d trains there for us d train at d train writes hey did you see
00:13:03
this show in entertainment weekly congrats and the answer was no we absolutely had not we didn't
00:13:09
know it was going to be in there we're in there with atlas obscura which is a rad website um
00:13:15
were in there with a band called Sunlit Youth. I'm sure young people love them. I'm sure that
00:13:20
they're cool. It's like a bunch of dudes in stretched out white t-shirts with really sparse
00:13:25
facial hair. Can I read you my text exchange about it with my dad? Please. So I sent him the photo
00:13:30
that D-Train sent us. And I said, my podcast is in Entertainment Weekly because you know the only
00:13:37
thing that seems legitimate is if it's on television or in a magazine. That's right.
00:13:41
Like it doesn't matter if you're on the website. That's right. And he said, OMG, wonderful.
00:13:47
Very proud of you. Go, girl. Marty. And he said, comedian. I like the sound of that.
00:13:54
And I said, me too. And he said, is this on Facebook? I'd like to share it. Daddy.
00:13:59
That's your job, Dad. Thanks, Dad. Go ahead and throw that up on Facebook with a baby picture.
00:14:05
Let's see it. Yeah. uh well that's funny because i texted my sister adrian and audrey who are my hometown posse
00:14:13
and all fans of the show not laura she doesn't listen to it my sister doesn't give she's like
00:14:20
i don't have time a fact and i literally have told her when she can listen to i'm like when you drive
00:14:25
after you drop off your daughter my sister-in-law is the only one who listens to it of my family
00:14:29
like my not related person is the only one who can hear my voice i love it hate me well audrey
00:14:35
and Audrey and Adrian both totally listened to it. So I went on to our nonstop constant group text
00:14:42
and just went, hey, you guys look, we're in Entertainment Weekly. No one answered for a while.
00:14:47
And then Adrian responded, what magazine is that? I'm like, don't make me fucking say it twice.
00:14:54
Wow. And then no one answered for a while. And then I had written, will someone please go buy one and give it to my dad?
00:15:02
Yeah. And so then nobody answers for a while and then adrian comes back and goes laura are you on that you're like hello yeah i was like this is
00:15:12
classic and then i was like sorry for bragging and then my sister called me of course i'm so proud
00:15:17
of you yeah i sent it to my mom and dad i haven't heard a word from my mother well hates me no i'm
00:15:23
kidding can i just shout out yolanda my sister-in-law and how sweet she is because she
00:15:27
listening yeah oh i know was she at the wedding of course i may have met her yeah she's a doll
00:15:32
Thanks Yolanda You're the most important kind of family Which is the family that listens to the podcast
00:15:39
That doesn't hate you for cracking an egg over their head When you were five That's right there's no grudges
00:15:45
No old grudges with those in-laws All I've been in her mind is a great aunt Good time party gal
00:15:51
Probably a good gift giver I would say I'm terrible at gift giving She's a great gift giver
00:15:56
I'm a piece of shit What gift cards? All Starbucks gift cards everywhere I just forget
00:16:04
yeah more than that I try to make it seem like as if I'm a Seventh-day Adventist
00:16:09
I don't give gifts Karen doesn't do that can we agree and we did this on our last
00:16:15
birthdays that we don't give each other gifts let's not do that to each other never
00:16:19
I might pick you up something if I see it totally it's like let's so Karen but if it has to be on your birthday
00:16:27
I'm going to let you down I don't want you to be stressed out and then feel guilty
00:16:31
no way i don't even we podcasted on your birthday and i didn't even know it was your birthday because
00:16:36
i don't want to put that shit on people i'm so old at this point i didn't know i know but what
00:16:41
do you get i'm not on facebook i keep to myself i'm a fiercely private person hey it's my birthday
00:16:47
today you can't say that didn't it feel weird just now yeah all right let's talk about murder
00:16:53
are you ready that was called that was called family forum that last part that was called
00:16:58
working out friendship details. Friendship rules. This is an important thing because I swear to God, if I'm friends with a person
00:17:04
and they give me some fucking three stacks of beautifully wrapped gifts on my birthday,
00:17:10
I'm like, get off. I don't want this from you. You're going to be very disappointed when your birthday rolls around.
00:17:16
You are not getting this from me. And then I feel obligated and I write this card that's like,
00:17:20
hey, thank you for forcing this friendship out of me. Can I just take you for a fucking
00:17:27
meal. All right. Yeah. And actually you should. And I will. I feel you owe me. Who went first last week? I think you did. Okay, good. Am I wrong?
00:17:43
All right. We're taking a quickie break. Stay tuned. And then my favorite murders are happening.
00:17:54
And we back Hello Hi I looking at The photo right now on Instagram that we took from that recording Nine years ago I have not seen this photo since back then probably
00:18:06
Right? Of your house? Oh my God. Look at everything. I know. You could actually, when I saw that picture, that's what I said I go.
00:18:14
I wonder if Georgia's seen this lately because that is just like it captured a moment of your old apartment,
00:18:19
like with all your stuff and different things and like what your life looked like nine years ago.
00:18:23
It did. It was Steven on the ground there. Like what our whole lives were like back then in my cute little apartment. Oh my God, this is like, I'm verklempt.
00:18:33
I mean, and I'm schitzing. It's almost like that's our point of view. Like the other picture was Steven's point of view to us recording.
00:18:42
But I didn't realize. I definitely took this one. That's my love seat, I think, that I'm taking this from.
00:18:47
Yeah, it makes sense. With my whiskey on the table. If you'll notice, that is a vintage rocks glass, which I don't use anymore.
00:18:53
because there's lead. Because all that lead that you were drinking that night. And all through.
00:18:58
That it gave Steven. Here, Steven, shh, shh, shh, shh. This will make you feel better.
00:19:03
Yeah, we were talking about all kinds of, I mean, we were talking about it. We've talked about it a ton.
00:19:09
I said it then. I feel the same way. The Johnny Gosch case kills me. And you still can't handle.
00:19:17
It's one of those things where, like, I think part of the draw And I think the emotional interplay, if I may, and I may not.
00:19:27
I wish it would. This show is like, or of any true crime kind of fan's experience is that you're looking into this like horrifying, you know, gaping maw of human mystery, I guess.
00:19:41
Human mystery and misery. Misery, pain, people being stuck in places with no answers.
00:19:48
Unfathomable loss. Yeah. But then also lost, but then almost like a person coming back. Like, are they really there? Will we know? Like, it's so heartbreaking. Everything about that. And it hasn't gotten better.
00:20:03
And that's one of those cases. Well, the other one we mentioned was the Jacob Wetterling case, which I will mention every single time that season one of In the Dark that is about this case. When they were like days or a week before they were going to release the show, his murderer was caught. I mean, talk about timing. And it's an incredible show. So make sure you check out season one of In the Dark.
00:20:27
Season one of In the Dark. Yeah. Entertainment Weekly? Look at us go. I mean, that Entertainment Weekly spread was really fun.
00:20:34
That was a very cool moment. Was this the spread? Or it keeps saying we were mentioned.
00:20:39
Oh, it could be. Yeah, you know what? The one where I screwed it up and was like, it's us and Sunlit Youth when it was supposed to be.
00:20:46
It's us and local natives. So embarrassing. I apologize on the next episode. But local natives is a cool band.
00:20:53
And we were mentioned in there. But then I think maybe a couple months or a year later was when it was the spread.
00:21:00
That's right. Well, you know, we were actually in my loft when those photos got taken.
00:21:04
That's right. So that's how you know. That's right. That's how we know it's progressed in time forward.
00:21:09
That's right. Instead of having carpet, I now have like grayish wood floors that are just hideous.
00:21:17
And that's how you know we've made it. That's how you know you're moving on up. Yeah.
00:21:20
When you have fake gray wood floors. Yeah. I like that we said to each other, we don't have to give each other gifts.
00:21:26
It's very, that's the way to do it. That was a relief. I think I have that relief when I meet other friends that are also like, yeah, I don't do gifts either.
00:21:35
Or like with Vince where it's like, no, we don't really like he's not like hardcore about it and I'm not.
00:21:41
And so we don't I don't always feel the have to feel the pressure every year because he does so great.
00:21:45
And I do so, you know, right. It just happens when it fucking happens. Not like it's not expected.
00:21:50
And that almost makes it better when you get a gift or give a gift that the person's not like you don't feel obligated to give.
00:21:57
Yeah, it's that kind of beholden thing where someone sends you something and you're like, okay, so then the thing I get you has to be equal, if not greater in emotional value, the hard element of gift giving.
00:22:08
Yeah. Yeah. Some people in my family like insist on continuing to give adults gifts at the holidays.
00:22:16
Yeah. And I just think it should be like, just let's all just bring a dessert. That's the gift.
00:22:22
Right. You know? Right. Bring a box of Seas and give the kids presents. Like, we don't need gifts anymore.
00:22:28
I'm sorry. This will be way off. Well, it's on topic for what you just said, but it's a little off.
00:22:34
But I think I told you this. You can go onto the Seas website and design your own box.
00:22:40
So you can just go through and do the exercise of what would you put together if it was your custom-made box just for you to eat.
00:22:48
Yeah. And I did that one night simply just to pass the time. Will they send it to you in the mail?
00:22:53
Yeah. So it can be whatever you want in there, but it's like, you know how I'll use the normal nuts and shoes, say, for example.
00:22:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Vince's Nuts and Shoes and I'm assorted and we fight about it constantly.
00:23:03
Okay, the fight's over. Because if you go on there, you can split it down the center.
00:23:08
You can do it however you want. Fill the whole thing with caramel patties. Whatever you want to do, you can do it.
00:23:12
Get your fucking chocolate covered nuts away from me. I'm not a fucking hippie health nut.
00:23:17
Like, give me caramel. Give me fucking marshmallow. I want the like indulgent ones not like I don't want trail mix when I'm eating dessert you know
00:23:28
I hear you I understand but for me the combination of their roasted almonds and like milk chocolate
00:23:34
is so outstanding but you know what I never had and then I swear to god we'll stop talking about
00:23:38
this because it's not the right show and I want to eat it now yeah and I'm so hungry have you
00:23:43
ever had those scotch mellow bars there yeah the fucking with the marshmallow and the caramel yep
00:23:49
It's ridiculous. It's the first one I go to whenever I open a box. It's like there's something about that combo.
00:23:55
It's balanced so perfectly. Mary C. Just hats off to you once again, ma'am. Love you.
00:24:03
I'm so proud because it's like an L.A. institution. That's right. Jesus, I love it.
00:24:08
She's a baller, baller, baller. All right. Well, should we get into my story? Should we go back to talking about this episode?
00:24:17
Yeah. This one, yeah. This one, I had forgotten about this. Right. I forgot about the DNA thing at the very end, which is just mind-blowing.
00:24:29
Yeah, we'll let you tell us, but from 2016, this is Georgia's story about Gary Earl Leiterman and the Michigan murders.
00:24:59
And just then, we felt the plane turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:25:08
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves.
00:25:19
My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything.
00:25:25
and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:25:31
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:25:36
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:25:43
You know the famous author Roald Dahl. He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy?
00:25:50
Neither did I. You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:25:57
All episodes are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
00:26:01
What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:26:09
Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
00:26:18
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime.
00:26:27
The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:26:34
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:26:46
We're back. and we're back and hi we're back hey all right hey george is first this week okay
00:26:56
so are you ready to put your phone down and listen to me um i was gonna send you that picture
00:27:02
you get me every goddamn time what if i was that big of a dick are you ready to listen that's my one trigger is phone stuff no i'm kidding i don't give a
00:27:16
shit about anything um i'm pulling this microphone forward and leaning back go to instagram.com
00:27:20
slash my favorite murder to see a photo we just took yeah i have no makeup on and neither do i
00:27:26
and my pants are just completely unbuttoned and unzipped it's my alicia keys photo all right i'm
00:27:31
taking this out is it gonna make a lot of noise no i'm not i'm not gonna make one move steven
00:27:36
you better tell her if she i just want to relax keeping an eye on her okay yeah clink clonks give
00:27:41
me the finger. All right. All right. So my favorite murder this week is that of Gary Earl Lederman and the Michigan murders. So it's kind of a, it's kind of a mashup.
00:27:55
Okay. All right. In the late 1960s, there was a serial killer targeting young women
00:28:02
in the college town of Ann Arbor, Michigan. He was called the co-ed killer. He became
00:28:10
known as a COVID killer. And he murdered women in Ann Arbor in a two-year period.
00:28:17
Okay. His MO was picking up young women between the ages of 13 and 21. Then he would rape,
00:28:24
beat, and murder them, typically by stabbing or strangulation. Sometimes their bodies would be
00:28:30
mutilated, which I don't get into. Don't worry if you're squeamish. after death before being discarded in a desolate area and he was also known to visit their bodies
00:28:42
before they were found oh yeah he was a fucking creep yeah like a gross fucked up sadistic creep
00:28:49
he was he was the og ted bundy it sounds like yeah yeah yeah he was like i think i don't know
00:28:55
i should have looked this up but they must have had the term serial killer already because they
00:28:59
called him that, but it was like before this was like a known thing, serial killing. So two young
00:29:06
women attributed to the co-ed killer had been found when the body of Jane Mixer, a brilliant
00:29:12
23-year-old law student at the University of Michigan was found on March 21st, 1969.
00:29:21
She was found in a cemetery just west of Ann Arbor, and it was assumed she was a victim of
00:29:25
the serial killer the co-ed killer um but some of the details of her murder were different than
00:29:32
the established mo of the co-ed killer jane had disappeared after posting a note on a college
00:29:39
rideshare bulletin board oh fuck right i mean oh honey yeah she was seeking a ride across the state
00:29:48
to her hometown of uh muskegon where she intended oh my god this is the worst part She intended to inform her family of her engagement and imminent move to New York Like she intended to inform everyone of the beautiful life she was building for herself
00:30:06
Yeah. And was excited to start. She just had some great news. Yeah. It's like, oh,
00:30:12
her parents had been waiting for this day. Yeah. A guy she met at law school who was a sweet angel.
00:30:18
They were going to move to New York and pursue their careers. Her sweet baby angle.
00:30:25
that's my saying i love all right tm thank you um yeah it makes me really sad but you know like
00:30:34
i wonder how like there's one thing about hitchhiking that we are always like don't
00:30:38
hitchhike but the other thing of like putting it hey if anyone's heading to like fucking
00:30:43
muskegon are you right i mean in this day and age i think it's a little bit better right if you're
00:30:49
going to do that in 1969 don't don't do get away from any cork board of any kind yeah there's
00:30:55
nothing good is happening no everything's laced with acid come on oh those were great quotes
00:31:03
amazing um yeah i'm really mad about it i had no idea no it's ridiculous so her body had been
00:31:10
found in a cemetery atop a grave well um she had been and we learned this from how to say this from
00:31:17
JonBenet garroted correct yeah garretted all right with a nylon stocking and it wasn't her
00:31:25
own stocking it was come to find out but the way she died was that she was shot twice in the head
00:31:32
with a 22 caliber uh she hadn't been beaten or sexually assaulted like the other victims of the
00:31:39
co-ed killer had but she did have her dress pulled up showing her underwear but it had been carefully
00:31:44
covered up with her yellow raincoat afterwards and her shoes and a cop and her copy of catch 22
00:31:50
had been carefully placed nearby so like this person took care was like painting a picture
00:31:57
yeah and like covering her body is such i mean we all know what it means now but back then it was
00:32:02
like we didn't understand like that really meant caretaking this person right which means a personal
00:32:08
relationship usually i didn't yes you're right all right i thought that's what you're saying
00:32:14
no but you're right i just yeah it means yeah you're so smart um i'm just gonna hand this
00:32:22
whole podcast over to you don't do it please don't do it so four days after she's discovered
00:32:27
the body another body of the co-ed victim the co-ed killer is found marilyn skelton
00:32:35
she disappeared while hitchhiking in ann arbor and her murder more closely resembled the mo of
00:32:41
the serial killer i wrote fucked up fact each woman up until this point including jane mixer
00:32:48
had been menstruating at the time of their death oh what in the actual fuck what what are the chances
00:32:55
okay who works at the tampon store is my first as i'm oh you think it's a well they wore sanitary
00:33:05
napkins like went up to their chins who sold those sanitary napkin belts did you just say that
00:33:10
went up to their chins have you seen these things can i tell you a hilarious and very quick anecdote
00:33:16
always my friend lisa lanyon who i went to high school with saying her full name are you about
00:33:22
to tell him no she'd like it okay um i spent the night at her house one night and i wanted to wash
00:33:27
my face before we went to bed i couldn't find anything to hold my hair back and then i found
00:33:31
this this uh no this white elastic weird headband that had plastic clips on it i was like whatever
00:33:37
doubled it up threw my hair back washed my face oh my god came out of the bathroom her mother
00:33:43
started laughing so hard she could not breathe and then lisa was like karen you have a sanitary
00:33:50
napkin belt on your head the joke is on them because what the fuck it was like some old thing
00:33:56
I think the story was like her mom showed her like this is what you used to have to use and then threw it in the bathroom drawer.
00:34:03
Oh, my God. It was like some old thing she found of like, Lisa, can you believe this?
00:34:07
He used to have her mom had this great Boston accent. Her mom was hilarious. That is the most beautiful story I've ever heard in my life.
00:34:14
Her mom lost her mind when she saw me. And she was like, you are the funniest girl.
00:34:19
I was like, I was just putting a hairband in my hair. How embarrassing. But good for you for washing your face before bed.
00:34:26
thanks jeez pro pro tip as someone who has open adult acne on her face right now i always wash
00:34:33
your face before bed seriously it's something that's very hard to do once you're in your like
00:34:37
fourth episode of rosemary time you're like i'm not getting off this couch who cares that's why
00:34:42
within arm's reach at all times you have uh face wipes everywhere oh yeah girl tip for the lazy
00:34:49
there'll be more of those coming up we're very lazy um that was a great segue that was the best
00:34:56
story okay sorry no don't sorry that needs to be the girl who makes those amazing cartoons of us
00:35:01
oh yeah comic strips of us yeah can she can that lovely girl please make one of this story
00:35:06
yeah and give me a button nose i demand it everyone keeps commenting when i put photos
00:35:14
like drawings on um instagram of how that you have a button nose and amazing cheekbones in
00:35:20
every drawing because you do that's right you just bend people to your will tell me i'm pretty
00:35:25
We won't share unless you tell us. Matt McCarthy actually texted me button nose the other morning.
00:35:32
He did. Oh, shout out to Matt McCarthy. It was sarcastic. Yeah, but he listens. He listens and loves.
00:35:38
Maybe he sarcastically listens. No, I think he genuinely listens, but was being sarcastic about my button nose.
00:35:43
Okay. So Matt McCarthy of the We Watch Wrestling podcast. We Watch Wrestling podcast if you like wrestling.
00:35:48
All right. All right. Back to the story. Back to the murders. Back to murder. All right.
00:35:52
so all had been menstruating crazy creepy fucking weird and like seems linked right what are the chances what are the chances that insane so after three more murders of a 13 year old named don luis basem and
00:36:08
21 year old alice elizabeth callum with his final victim which was due to his capture being an 18
00:36:15
year old named karen sue benner benjamin john norman collins a former fraternity dude
00:36:24
was caught he's that young or he's just former no he was he was oh god i don't know his age but
00:36:34
he was a young man he was in college yeah college age too yeah and honestly like between you and me
00:36:40
he was fucking hot oh that's they're the worst that's the fuck it it's the ted bundy thing well
00:36:46
that's why these girls would get in his car and get on his motorcycle he was a cute college dude
00:36:52
he's not anymore he's fucking gross but look at an old photo of right he was well no one's gonna
00:36:58
go with a guy if a if a guy rolls up and is like hey can you help me with my thing and yeah and
00:37:05
they look creepy, people are going to go, no, I can use my very basic senses to be like, no,
00:37:11
thanks. Yeah. It's this automatic thing of trusting an attractive face. That's right.
00:37:17
Giving credit to being attractive is that means you're a good person, trustworthy person.
00:37:22
So what does it mean that people think I'm a terrible person? Does that mean I'm unattractive?
00:37:27
Nobody thinks that. Wait, you're, you're trying to give people rides? always you're rolling up and trying to get people to get into your car to not kill them yeah just
00:37:38
to drive them around and talk about your own stuff yeah it just seems like to vent sometimes
00:37:42
when i say i went to therapy today all i mean is i picked someone up and made them drive around
00:37:46
with me for an hour you made them listen to you for an hour yeah i gave him 20 bucks and
00:37:52
dropped him off thank you bye uh so he had been interviewed by police previously but had been
00:38:01
eliminated as a as a suspect and part of the reason he was caught was due to the identification
00:38:08
by a clerk of the wig shop which his last victim named karen had visited yes this was an episode
00:38:16
of the crime a crime to remember the one with the car what it's like it the one thing they knew about
00:38:25
him like they had no idea who it was for a long time but the one thing they knew it was like a
00:38:28
blue car it was a motorcycle oh oh is that the one where the little girl gets kidnapped like
00:38:34
from her driveway yeah and they knew the car yeah and that turns out it was a guy that lived right
00:38:39
in the neighborhood yeah okay i'm combining sorry i'm combining i know you're right though
00:38:42
So Karen, the last Karen. I've watched too many crime shows. They're all the same in my mind now.
00:38:50
So Karen. Hi. Karen, the last person who was murdered by him that day, the day of her disappearance, had visited a wig shop.
00:38:59
And the clerk had remembered that Karen was visiting her store to purchase a hairpiece.
00:39:06
and there was a young man waiting outside for her on a blue motorcycle. Ooh. And Karen told the clerk, I mean, man, this bums me out already.
00:39:21
She said to the clerk to observe the man with whom she had accepted a ride, a caulk eye on a motorcycle, stating that she had made two foolish errors in her life,
00:39:32
purchasing a wig and accepting a ride from a stranger. And then she stated, I've got to be either the bravest or the dumbest girl alive because I've just accepted a ride from this guy.
00:39:44
What are the fucking chances? She was then seen climbing onto the motorcycle before riding away with him.
00:39:54
You know, that makes me think of, it's like when you get a bad feeling in your gut.
00:39:58
And you make light of it. That's right. and you feel like oh if I just say this to one person it'll make it less a bad feeling in my gut
00:40:05
crazy and yeah exactly where you're like this crazy thing just happened to me this person
00:40:10
assaulted me and you're like you should be taking it seriously well no I just mean it more in the
00:40:14
way of like before anything happened before anything bad happens but you do have the thing
00:40:18
this isn't right like what that that I was gonna I mean from your own life are we fighting
00:40:28
like what no i meant from your own life like what most of the time if i get an in a thing i walk
00:40:39
i i don't do this but but i think probably back when i drank i would do it more right but there
00:40:46
wasn't a lot of information coming in because of like the gallons of whiskey that i had inside yeah
00:40:51
there's definitely jokes i've made that are like like i have a hot date tonight and it's like well
00:40:57
it's this with this person you don't fucking know yeah and it's and you're really actually
00:41:02
you should be afraid yeah you're nervous and you're telling people and you're trying not to
00:41:07
act quote-unquote weird by telling them i'm nervous so you're just trying to make a joke
00:41:12
about it but then vince and i got married so it's fine no but one time i did go on a date with
00:41:17
someone i was going to date with someone and i gave his phone number to my best friend this is
00:41:22
before cell phones to be like, hey, if I don't show up tomorrow, here's his info. That's not cool.
00:41:33
Well, but also now, because a lot of people talk about this to us, which is, I don't want to leave
00:41:41
my house. I'm so anxious. I'm so nervous. I think everyone's going to kill me or whatever,
00:41:45
which I think is people connecting with us and people reaching out. They have heard us say it.
00:41:50
they going to just say it too because they admitting it But there also that thing of just it just a safety precaution Nobody cares Nobody thinks you weird You give that number and then you just have a little thing in place because I think it a smart thing to do It
00:42:06
just taking, it's being proactive for yourself because yeah, you're going to go on a date. If
00:42:11
you've met a person, none of the other alarm bells are going off. Right. It doesn't mean you shouldn't,
00:42:16
that's a person you shouldn't go on a date with because it's just being precautious.
00:42:20
But but yeah, but also do that thing that might feel weird, but you can just do it for with a friend. You don't have to do it to every person, you know, then you're being like neurotic. Yeah. But you put a little safety. Sure. Measure out there. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Ready?
00:42:41
accepted the ride. So that's how he, one of the main ways he got caught that led to all the other evidence against him.
00:42:53
And in August 1970, John Norman Collins was found guilty of first degree murder of Karen,
00:43:01
his last victim. And he was sentenced to serve a life imprisonment with hard labor in solitary confinement.
00:43:08
He never admitted his guilt in either the murder of Karen or any of the other murders linked to the Michigan murder
00:43:15
he is suspected of committing. So they only tried him for that one crime, for the one murder that
00:43:20
they had a ton of evidence on and eyewitness evidence. And then he was never going to get out.
00:43:25
So they didn't try him for the other murders, which has to be hard when you're the family of
00:43:28
those other victims. And how many other people were there? Well, here's, okay. So here's the
00:43:33
rest of the story oh shit so they i mean up until 2002 they figured he had like seven murders in the
00:43:41
area um but the case of jane mixer was considered solved by the fact that john norman collins had
00:43:52
it until 2002 when michigan state detectives noticed that a lot of the details of her murder
00:43:58
didn't match up with Collins' crime. So they took a look at the case again, and they took three
00:44:04
drops of sweat that had been on Jane Mixer's pantyhose and a single drop of blood that had
00:44:10
been on her hand to be tested for DNA. All right. The DNA didn't match John Norman Collins,
00:44:17
the co-ed killer, but it did match 62-year-old Gary Learman, who was a former nurse from
00:44:25
southwestern Michigan who was a drug salesman in Michigan at the time of the murders in the area.
00:44:33
It was thought that Lederman was the person who had responded to Jane's note on the college
00:44:39
rideshare bulletin asking for a lift home because somehow a dorm room book, a phone book in the
00:44:51
dorm rooms read the words quote mixer and muskegon which is where she was going and were um
00:44:59
were linked to his handwriting but that was in 2002 that they found those or that they linked those all right anyways so maybe they had the evidence but they just hadn't
00:45:11
kind of put anything together just sitting somewhere yes um and then when his house was
00:45:18
search where he had lived with his wife of 27 years. Two Polaroid pictures of a 16-year-old
00:45:25
foreign exchange student who had lived with him and his wife were found. The girl was drugged
00:45:30
unconscious, lying on his bed with her clothing pulled back to show her junk. And it was similar
00:45:39
to the pose that Jane had been left in in the cemetery. Whoa. So the sweat stains linked to
00:45:47
Lederman, not the serial killer, but the drop of blood found on her hand was linked through DNA
00:45:54
to someone else. It was a Detroit man who was at the time of the DNA match serving life in prison
00:46:03
for murder. The problem was, ready for this? That John Ruelas, whose DNA matched the blood drop,
00:46:13
was four years old at the time of the murder. Right? So the defense argued that the state police lab
00:46:21
had contaminated the samples when both men's DNA were tested at the lab within a day of each other.
00:46:31
Lederman's had been tested separately. He had a recent arrest for forging prescription meds
00:46:37
from where he worked as a nurse. And Ruelas was for murder. But the cross-contamination made the DNA match to Lederman.
00:46:47
It should have made it in the court case just null and void. Because if you find someone else's DNA on this person, there's no way that person could have committed the crime.
00:46:57
Then the rest of the DNA should be fucking thrown out as evidence, right? Are you saying that's the law?
00:47:05
Or you're just saying that's like logic? That's logic to me. We can get to that.
00:47:09
It didn't get thrown out. the prosecution argued that Ruelas who was four years old at the time and a chronic nose bleeder
00:47:20
must have been at the crime scene and somehow got a drop of blood on your face that you're making is
00:47:27
correct is what I feel too yeah for a four-year-old with a bloody nose wandered over to a dead body
00:47:32
they didn't argue that there was a mistake in the crime lab but crime lab but but the other DNA was
00:47:37
legitimate and here's why they said that there was a four-year-old boy in the cemetery and had
00:47:45
somehow gotten his blood on her that in and of itself is the creepiest thing we've talked about
00:47:50
this whole episode the idea of a four-year-old with a bloody nose walking through a cemetery
00:47:54
yeah and stumbling upon a dead body and it's absurd but he was He was convicted.
00:48:03
Lederman was convicted of the murder of Jane Mixer based on the DNA evidence and these other little basic things.
00:48:11
According to the book Inside the Cell, The Dark Side of Forensic DNA by Aaron Murphy, which we all need to read immediately.
00:48:18
I'm fucking buying. the lab analyst admitted that they routinely process samples from different cases at the same
00:48:26
time as well as one of the negative controls processed in this case at the time that of the
00:48:33
pantyhose sample was processed that was processed had become contaminated like not even connected to
00:48:38
all of this but the analyst had tried to hide that fact oh in addition royal's dna wasn't even
00:48:48
processed at that lab. It was sent out for testing in a different location, but they still were able
00:48:54
to cross contaminate at that, at the lab where it had originated. Like that's some fucked up shit.
00:49:01
Yeah. Right. So after minutes of deliberation, Lederman was convicted of first degree murder and
00:49:08
got life in prison. He minutes of deliberation. Jesus. I know. All right. So I kind of wrote
00:49:16
these things of like here's what's hard to argue uh with of lederman being guilty is that all of
00:49:26
the crimes that we're talking including mixers had to do with ride somewhere which was the mo
00:49:31
of the co-ed killer they all had something tied around their necks some of which didn't belong
00:49:37
to the murder victim including jane's um the first few were menstruating which is fucking insane
00:49:44
Bizarre. They were all left in locations where they would eventually be found kind of on purpose.
00:49:50
They all were connected to the university, which I mean, if you live in Ann Arbor, that's kind of hard not to.
00:49:55
Yeah, it's a university town. A lot of them were strangled and the fifth known victim was shot in the head as well.
00:50:01
So it wasn't totally against his MO. But at the same time, the majority of those murders, he was never tried and convicted for.
00:50:09
So it's not like we can say that he did them definitively. Right. But according to Lederman's roommate in college, Lederman owned and liked to shoot a .22 caliber and he was obsessed with serial murders.
00:50:24
So it's kind of this. It reminds me of making a murderer where it's like, I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but he shouldn't have been prosecuted based on these pieces of evidence.
00:50:40
Yeah, that's right. And that's really the only thing you have at the end of the day, because everything else is bias and circumstance and kind of judgment.
00:50:49
Yeah. And it was 2002 at the height of like CSI being a big thing and everyone thinking DNA was like the end all be all and not realizing that so much of it, like eyewitness testimony was flawed because it was because human error.
00:51:05
And people not admitting like covering up human errors, like good God. Yeah. So that's. That's crazy. Yeah. So you're you you believe that Liederman should not be in jail. You think that that last death that the woman that was found in the graveyard is a co-ed killer.
00:51:25
I don't think I can't say that definitively. I think there should have been more evidence to try. I feel like now in 2016, we should go back and look and find whatever whatever other evidence we can find and DNA tests those other victims that we are attributing to the coed killer, kind of cross reference them with Jane Mixer and see what really happened.
00:51:49
But I don't, I'm not, I can't say definitively that he should be let out. I just think in the same way Stephen Avery was like, should get a new trial. And, you know, Serial Anand Syed should be, you know, you can't, you can't convict someone, especially when they have shoddy defense based on these basic things that, you know, in the future we're going to laugh at as like.
00:52:16
I know. And the future could be like four years from now. Right. I mean, 2002 seems not that long ago.
00:52:23
Right. It's a huge difference when it comes to scientific evidence and all this.
00:52:31
Now, where do you think that bloody four-year-old plays into this? I mean, that's the only reason I'm talking about this murder is because that is so fucking insane
00:52:43
And so clearly human error of cross-contamination in that lab. I can't believe the trial went forward after that was found out.
00:52:55
That lawyer, when he found that out, that that's what that blood spatter was, must have been so stoked.
00:53:02
The defense? I don't know. Whoever found that, I was just like, this is... I think the defense...
00:53:10
The big reveal of like, is this blood? Well, it was four years old. The defense should have been stoked that that was that they found a four year old's blood who had been whose DNA had been tested in the same lab a day before.
00:53:24
But for some reason, he didn't pursue that enough in the trial to convince the jury that that was fucking insane.
00:53:30
Because at the time, like you're saying, it's like DNA is a lock. Yeah. I mean, those prosecutors were good.
00:53:37
I'm sure. Sure. Well, and also you get somebody it's like, it's, you know, people want a thing like that.
00:53:46
People want that story finished, closed. They want it closed up and they want somebody to pay.
00:53:52
Yeah And that a hard position You know we felt that same way Yeah Where it just like erase what happening or like somebody gets some justice Yeah Justice is such a fraudulent term
00:54:10
All right. Wow. Horrifying in every way. Are there updates on this case? There aren't many.
00:54:17
Yeah. That story is just like piling on horrifying things. It's just like too many.
00:54:22
Yes. Too many. but during my story, Karen, you did share a funny anecdote about misusing a sanitary napkin belt because like I think we were a lot jokier during the stories
00:54:33
back then than we are now. Well, yeah, we didn't. We just thought we were talking to each other.
00:54:37
So when we would go off on tangents, which we always do, it would just be like, oh, wait,
00:54:43
this makes me think of this thing. Okay, now back to this horrible thing. And it wasn't really,
00:54:47
it didn't read to us as kind of stark and harsh and insensitive as it does now. I'd also like to point out, as I mentioned earlier, that full glass of whiskey that I don't do that anymore. Maybe a can of wine, but a full glass of whiskey does not a good podcast make.
00:55:04
So, yeah, but it's great that you did. But good thing you brought it up because that iconic story was turned into a work of art by Nick Terry, of course, for MFM Animated. It's called Hair Tie and you can see it in all its glory on the Exactly Right YouTube channel. I mean, if you're having a bad day and you just go to the Exactly Right YouTube channel and binge watch MFM Animated, it's a joy.
00:55:30
Nick Terry has done something that like as a self-loathing Gen Xer who just wants to like turn away most of the time.
00:55:39
Nick Terry makes me enjoy what we have made here in a way that's like it just means the world.
00:55:45
It's like being able to see it in the way of like, oh, I get this. Yeah. Like it points out the special moments that we miss because we're fucking halfway talking about something else by the time it's over.
00:55:56
Because we're all sanitary napkin belt. Which is like, most people don't know what that is.
00:56:01
Also, this is the episode where I say Sweet Baby Angle. And for good or bad, we do have bumper stickers that say that on the exactly right store if you want to go buy one.
00:56:11
That's right. I love how Sweet Baby Angle has become just as important as Sweet Baby Angel, the original one.
00:56:16
And it was because someone wrote in, right? And they accidentally wrote Angle. Probably.
00:56:21
I think that's what it was. And then I did have the story from my hometown of somebody wrote, when I was in high school,
00:56:26
somebody wrote on a wall in black spray paint angle of death and we would my friend would be
00:56:33
like oh my god it's the angle of death oh my god i wanted to open a vintage clothing shop called
00:56:39
hail satin wouldn't that have been great yes i'm still trademarking that like come on that's that's
00:56:46
very like early agent provocateur look we're still doing it we can't help it it is what we're like
00:56:52
Oh, conversationally. We just can't stop doing it. Stop it. Let's get back into it.
00:56:57
The story that I'm about to introduce that you do is so incredible. I think it's one of your best.
00:57:01
It has an incredible update at the very end. And I think you get into this groove right now in this time period when you're doing like Mary Vincent and the story and some other really powerful ones that are just like legendary in the over 400 episodes we've done.
00:57:20
That's right. Right. Also, there's thank you very much. That's a lovely compliment. But I am ripping off the television show. I survived directly. I credit them at the time. But especially in retrospect, I was just trying to get this insane podcast homework done. And so I could not all of this is the producing minds of the people who made I Survived and how brilliantly they made that show.
00:57:47
So I could basically tell the Jennifer Mori story because the first time I saw it, it affected me so deeply that I never forgot it.
00:57:55
So like that day, I'm positive I was coming from one of my writing jobs. And I was like, oh, I know.
00:58:00
I'll just rewatch that and write down the facts and then just retell it the way Jennifer Mori herself told this story, which is for the good or bad.
00:58:08
That is how I got through the year that I worked on this podcast and had a job, if not two.
00:58:14
but I do think it was this sincere because of my true genuine like respect and admiration for that
00:58:22
show and the way they tell victim stories it was like well great let's tell victim stories and let's
00:58:27
get those yeah now I know the correct story not the fucking yes you know over dramatized bullshit
00:58:33
the firsthand experience of a survivor is one of the most important things we could hear
00:58:39
okay so let's listen to Karen's story about Jennifer Morey Your husband is not who you think he is.
00:58:49
Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.
00:58:54
I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
00:59:02
And just then, we felt the plane turn in the air. So much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:59:12
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,
00:59:18
and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,
00:59:25
but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything.
00:59:29
And me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:59:35
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:59:39
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:47
Before NXIVM, Nancy Solzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody it probably the biggest motivator of my entire life She trained in something called neurolinguistic programming People loved our training Then everything changed Yeah and they called it a cult How does a method designed to improve
01:00:06
lives end up in a cult? A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands
01:00:13
of a murderer is a weapon. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
01:00:19
you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the
01:00:28
people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world.
01:00:32
Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep
01:00:38
is going on. Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around
01:00:44
the world. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018.
01:00:51
The Justice Department, through we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims.
01:00:58
Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:01:06
So this week, I'm going back to my tried and true, which is I'm going to retell you one of my favorite episodes if I survived.
01:01:14
Well, I've never seen the show, so please do. And this one I love because this plays on if you have some home alone as a young lady fears, this is going to cause some problems.
01:01:29
So spoiler alert, trigger alert, scary, scary alert. Oh, no. It has all these pieces.
01:01:37
And the first time I saw this on I Survived, I was like gripping the couch. I was so freaked out.
01:01:46
So essentially it goes a little something like this. It's April 15th, 1995. And a young, bright, beautiful, successful 25-year-old young lawyer named Jennifer Morey
01:02:03
is, uh, goes out and has a drink with her friends after work one night. Big mistake. Her fault. Um, she goes, she's at the local ale house. All her friends are there.
01:02:17
Um, she doesn't want to go at first. They convince her to stay. Then she ends up having a great time
01:02:23
and, uh, she stays until midnight. Then her friend drives her home and, um, she, uh, lives
01:02:31
in an apartment complex called Bayou Park in Houston. And the reason that she picked this
01:02:39
apartment complex to move into was because it was all about security. And it had not just like,
01:02:46
you know, the apartment security guards, they actually hired Pinkerton security guards
01:02:53
to work at this place. So they go back in time? That's still a thing? No, they've been around. That's how long they've been around. It's still like a major company.
01:03:01
Holy shit. So, and that name means a lot to people and security. So that's why she picked that apartment building to live in.
01:03:09
So she goes home at midnight, goes in. Let's say she washed her face, which is what you should do before you go to bed, ladies.
01:03:18
So she goes in, gets ready for bed, goes to bed, turns out all the lights. Wakes up at 4 a.m.
01:03:25
There's someone on top of her. No. Yeah. Yeah. Get ready for this. No. It's going to be this the whole time.
01:03:31
Scared. So there's someone straddling her and she can feel something on her neck.
01:03:37
And she realizes. Is it a puppy? Someone. No, it's not. She realizes someone's broken into her apartment and they're attempting to rape her.
01:03:46
She can't figure out if she's dreaming at first. It's that horrible in-between feeling.
01:03:51
When she becomes fully awake and she realizes someone's straddling her, they've got a knife to her throat and they're going to rape her.
01:03:59
she just starts fighting good for her so she does everything she can she she fights this guy
01:04:07
she grabs the knife it's all the stuff uh all the crazy shit and she's fighting him so hard
01:04:15
that he cuts her from the cheekbone to the middle of her neck and he slices her neck open
01:04:21
um so she keeps on fighting but suddenly it gets very slippery and there's blood
01:04:29
everywhere and um finally she starts losing blood and like the fight goes out of her oh no he takes
01:04:38
her by the hair oh no and he pulls her across out of the bed across the room throws her into the
01:04:45
bathroom and says you stay in here and you do not move and he slams the door and so she she throws
01:04:53
her back up against the door in the bathroom she grabs a washcloth and she puts it up against
01:04:58
her wound pressure constant pressure when you have a wound like that um oh my god oh my god she
01:05:04
throws her feet up against the wall and she's like jammed herself there so he can't come back in
01:05:10
yeah um and then she sits there and waits and listens and she hears him zip his pants up
01:05:17
and then she wait and then she hears the door close and then she waits a little bit longer
01:05:22
to make sure and then she goes to open the door and she can't open the door because there's so
01:05:28
much blood on her hands that she cannot get a grip on the door and she's pulling at it and pulling
01:05:34
at it and then she actually says in the story she actually started laughing because she was like oh
01:05:39
this is how i'm gonna die she's one of us i get stuck i get stuck in the bathroom and that's how
01:05:44
i can't get help so finally she gets out she yanks the door open she gets out she fumbles to throw on
01:05:51
the hallway light the lights are dead oh my god she crawls she gets to the phone phone dead No no no no Yeah So then she finds her cell phone It alive She brings it back into the bathroom and she calls 911
01:06:10
So that night, a man named Richard Everett was working, was the dispatcher. He had just gotten
01:06:16
onto his shift. Oh my God. Heroes. They're all heroes. So this is 4 a.m. when this started.
01:06:23
so uh so i guess he was starting a very early morning shift them mid maybe middle of night i
01:06:30
don't know um so she explains to him what's happened and he just starts telling her you're
01:06:39
going to be fine just try to stay calm don't talk that much we just keep it the cops and the ambulance
01:06:45
are on their way right now they're going to be there really soon you know we could listen to this
01:06:49
right now and you're gonna be fine there's no fucking way i would ever listen to it i know um
01:06:53
and she's saying i'm bleeding so much you please make sure they hurry or whatever and he's like
01:06:58
they're they're coming there as fast as they can just hold that washcloth you're gonna be okay oh
01:07:03
my god and so after like 10 minutes he's just talking her down and she's actually starting to
01:07:09
calm down and she's feeling okay there's a knock at the door no no no so she's like there's someone's
01:07:15
knocking at the door and he's like, who is it? And she goes, well, hold it. So she yells from
01:07:20
the bathroom. Who is it? And he says, this is Brian Gibson, the security guard that's on, on,
01:07:26
um, duty tonight. Um, I just got attacked by a guy who jumped off your balcony. Are you okay?
01:07:36
Is that true? Is it true? And she doesn't know. So she's like, he goes, are you okay? You should
01:07:42
let me in. And she goes, I'm okay. I'm talking to 911 right now. And the dispatcher on 911 goes,
01:07:51
wait, what's going on? And she goes, no, it's okay. It's the security guard. He wants me to
01:07:56
let him in. And Richard Everett for no reason, except for gut goes, do not let him in the door.
01:08:02
And she goes, no, it's Pankerton security. That's the whole apartment. Like that's the
01:08:08
set up here and he goes he he said here's the thing we haven't notified security at your
01:08:16
apartment complex yet so unless they have a police scanner yeah but if you saw someone jumping off
01:08:22
that doesn't matter he what is he gonna do we don't know about that story yeah but he goes we
01:08:27
just don't know what that is yeah so just don't let him in yeah so she's like i'm not gonna let
01:08:32
you in right now and the guy's like it's i swear it's okay i'm here's my badge you know like he's
01:08:37
I just need to help you. Are you, you, you know, are you bleeding? There's blood out here. Um,
01:08:43
you know, I want to make sure that you're okay. And she's like, I'm fine. Um, the cops are on
01:08:48
their way. And he's like, I know I can hear the alarms. You know, I know CPR, I can help you
01:08:54
whatever. And, and, and he goes, I'm sorry. I just, the dispatcher says to Jennifer,
01:09:00
I just don't think you should let him in. And she's like, okay, I'm really scared though. I'm
01:09:04
starting to lose blood i'm getting lightheaded oh my god i have a coochie twinge this is so
01:09:07
exciting like what if i what if i pass out and i'm in here and the door is locked they kick it down
01:09:13
it's fine um and so he's just he just keeps talking to her and he's like just listen to
01:09:19
the sound of my voice i'm watching the cops drive up the street they are three minutes away
01:09:24
you just have to hang on for three more minutes and meanwhile the guy's like jennifer can you
01:09:30
talk to me? Are you okay? You know, can you just let me in? And, um, so he wouldn't, if he was
01:09:37
supposed to be there, he wouldn't be so insistent. He wouldn't, you know what I mean? Like, well,
01:09:43
but it's a woman who's bleeding and there's blood. It's like, clearly there's a scenario. Now, if you
01:09:47
were a security guard and you knew a woman had just gotten attacked with a knife, you would kick
01:09:51
the door down and she's in there bleeding out and freaking out and not letting anybody help her.
01:09:56
you might kick the door down yeah so but richard's like i don't know so just don't do it well then
01:10:05
the knocking starts getting harder he's like you need to let me in here and she then she's starting
01:10:11
freak out because now she doesn't trust anybody she has no idea what to do but then suddenly she
01:10:15
hears the um the sirens in the background so she knows the plate and he's like do you hear the
01:10:21
sirens they are they're coming up the driveway road she's like yes and he goes so the ambulance
01:10:27
is there like you are going to live you're fine so just keep that door shut and you will be fine
01:10:32
well the knocking stopped oh my god oh my god oh my god it's totally silent outside of the door so
01:10:36
now she's more scared because she's like what the fuck is it yeah when the cops pull up to this
01:10:41
apartment complex this security guard brian gibson meets them out there and he is a mess he is bleeding
01:10:50
from his right hand. There's blood on his face. There's blood on his uniform. Murder. And he tells the police his story that he
01:10:57
walked up. He saw a guy. He jumped down from her second story balcony and attacked him. They got into this fight and the
01:11:06
guy ran off into the woods, like into a field over on the side and he didn't see where he went. And then he went up to check on the lady who will not let
01:11:14
him in who's freaking out. Right. So the cops are like, all right, stay here. sounds good they start to check everything out there's no trail into the grass is dewy because
01:11:24
it's 6 a.m yep no not nothing so they're like get that guy and put him in a room over there yeah
01:11:31
they go up to jennifer's apartment that the ambulance has already taken her away she's
01:11:35
going to live oh my god okay because the show is called i survived she told the story herself
01:11:41
with a big old scar on her neck she's gorgeous this woman is like gorgeous and a lawyer so she's
01:11:47
The best. She's killing it. Yeah. The cops go into her apartment. There's blood everywhere.
01:11:53
There's also a Pinkerton hat. Oh, what? And there's men's underwear on the ground.
01:11:58
And a knife. So, They pick up all this shit and they go back down to Brian Gibson, the Pinkerton security guard that works there.
01:12:05
Yeah. How is that in there? And they say, can you take your shirt off, please? And he's like, no, I know it's fine.
01:12:11
I was actually the one that was attacked. They're like, take your shirt off. There's claw marks all over his body.
01:12:16
Oh, my God. He's not wearing underwear. Nope. He has shaved his pubic hair. No pubic hair.
01:12:24
Meaning no hair left behind. That's exactly right. And he doesn't have a hat. because he was the person the security guard no at the apartment building where she lived did he
01:12:36
have keys to everywhere was well he didn't have uh oh yeah he must have had keys to get into her
01:12:42
house or some key or he could have like i mean he had total access to her oh sorry shit that was the
01:12:51
most upsetting thing that i read no no no but i just forgot it it's he was calling her by her
01:12:56
first name when he was talking to her. Oh, shit. When he was first on her. Which I think is one of the other reasons she got so freaked out and fought so hard is
01:13:07
because it's like, what the fuck is going on? Guess how much I'm sleeping tonight.
01:13:12
Zero. But she survived. It turns out. Yeah. So they arrest him. He gets 20 years for attempted murder.
01:13:24
Man, what the fuck? And he's on parole now. What? No, I'm going to fucking. In Texas.
01:13:31
Jump off my second story balcony. He's on parole in Texas. When is attempted murder going to be treated like what it was intended to be?
01:13:40
Like murder, you mean? Murder. Right. That is so troubling to me that it's like, well, you didn't get away with it.
01:13:48
Simply because she lived. Right. Simply because she fought. So you don't deserve the punishment of what you were intending to fucking do.
01:13:57
Well, and also the cops are positive that if she had let him in when he came back the next time to quote unquote check on her, he would have killed her and picked up all his shit he left behind.
01:14:08
Totally. That is absolutely there. The cops are positive. That's the reason. What's the name of the guy?
01:14:13
The 901 dispatcher? Richard Everett. All of the ribbons and whatnot. They're still friends to this day.
01:14:21
He went to her wedding. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. They're, they're close friends. I'm going to cry.
01:14:29
Yeah. And she talks about him when in her episode of, uh, I survived. She, the way she talks about him is like one of the sweetest things you've ever
01:14:38
seen. I can't deal with that. Because he, in the worst moment of her life, like saved her life essentially in that way that like,
01:14:45
beautiful things happen to hideous fucking things. And she went on to become the trauma support, the director of trauma support services of North Texas.
01:14:56
Gorgeous. And she, I read a thing. She went around, I mean, it was 2015, I think, when the article, what the article is from 2013 or 2015.
01:15:06
She was going around speaking at schools and telling people horrible things happen in life, but it's all about what you're prepared, how you're prepared for them.
01:15:16
And basically she gave this talk that was kind of like the stuff that we talk about, which is like running scenarios and thinking about these things can actually help you not panic and not completely lose it when something really upsetting happens because you've kind of run a scenario.
01:15:34
You know where your cell phone is. You have things planned. You know where flashlights are.
01:15:38
Like you have things planned out a little bit so you at least can put a plan together It a good way to make sense of your anxiety and that like well maybe someday this anxiety or this thing that me thinking about these awful
01:15:53
things happening is going to make me better in a, in a situation where I need to not fucking panic
01:16:00
because I've already run the scenario through my head or. Yeah. And also it can take away from that.
01:16:04
Like you don't need to beat yourself up for thinking about it. You don't need to tell yourself
01:16:09
you're crazy for thinking about it. You're smart for thinking about it and you're empowered for
01:16:13
thinking about it. And you, you're taking action. It's not, you know, you don't have to live in it
01:16:18
and shut the door. You go out in your life knowing that you are armed with information and having an
01:16:24
awareness and a security that you, you know, you've done as much as you can with your anxiety
01:16:31
to prepare yourself, but you're not letting it take over your life and get in the way. Like
01:16:36
you're not going to never leave the house again because you're aware of all these fucking terrible
01:16:39
things that happen. Well, and also it's like, this isn't a story about how all security guards are
01:16:43
evil. A lot of them do just as good shit as Richard Everett, the 911 dispatcher did. A lot of them
01:16:50
have, you know, good, that good intentions of I took this job because I want to help people for
01:16:55
this exact reason. But you take it on a case by case basis. So if you meet a person, you get the
01:17:00
weird feeling in your gut. Absolutely trust yourself and just get out of there. You know
01:17:05
what I mean? You don't, that's, that's what all that's about. It's like to the individual.
01:17:11
Arm yourself with knowledge, but don't let that overwhelm you. Yeah. And also take a break every once in a while. And like the other day, some girls,
01:17:20
like I had a, she tweeted, I had a hard day at work. I'm going to drink wine and watch I survived.
01:17:24
And I wrote back, drink wine and watch Bob's burger. If you already had a bad day, relax.
01:17:29
That's a great suggestion. Take a break, watch fucking Rosemary and Thyme where it's a lot of
01:17:35
nice flowers a lot of great accents it's chill you can't don't live in it like like visit and
01:17:42
then and then go somewhere else for a while that's a beautiful take a have a glass of wine and watch
01:17:48
bob's burgers is like bob's burgers is the oh my god it makes me so happy it is the most a perfect
01:17:55
show it's positive it's a family that loves each other that's funny that that isn't perfect at all
01:18:03
and it's hilarious relatable my six-year-old nephew is obsessed with bobsburgers the songs
01:18:10
they write for that show my god are the best comedy songs there are yeah it is my favorite
01:18:15
how they come up with those every episode boggles my mind whoever their musical i should look it up
01:18:20
right now whoever their musical director is fucking straight up 1000 props yeah and that's
01:18:26
And that's Karen. That was, you tell those stories so well. It's almost like I'm not cheating.
01:18:35
Yeah. When I am. Are you? I wouldn't know. This is a podcast where some of the time I just retell TV shows.
01:18:44
But you say that, but you tell them you don't read them. That's true because I've seen that one. Jennifer's I've watched probably five times because she tells
01:18:54
it it's it's so compelling she's she's so real she's upset at certain points she's very angry
01:19:01
and like very self-righteous at certain points it's a fucking awesome thing to behold she's a
01:19:07
great survivor you tell it to me like we're at a party together whereas like if i did mine it would
01:19:12
be like so many missing elements of it because i can't remember half the shit that like i have to
01:19:17
kind of like go off my own notes, which I don't copy and paste, but you know, I lead with them.
01:19:24
Right Yeah But I mean I just copying her her story I mean that that stories though You just that how I learned to tell stories is just both of my parents That all they did It like we sitting by
01:19:37
a fire. Two cavemen. Two cavemen sitting by a fire. Tales as old as time. The only thing we have to eat
01:19:46
are cookies. Oh. Did someone come running from... I didn't say it right. He's Jabba the Hutt.
01:19:56
right now guys thanks for listening do all the things that you're supposed to do and support we
01:20:01
love you we couldn't be doing better and it's because you guys all yeah listen and support and
01:20:08
do all the things we always ask you to do we couldn't thank you more for that the best listener
01:20:13
like you guys are the best it's we are so lucky we are so fucking lucky uh just make sure that
01:20:20
You stay sexy. And you don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? You want a cookie?
01:20:29
Okay, we are back. Wow. And I know you have an update. It's epic. Tell us. So as Georgia was talking about, of course, you listeners really reacted to this story and really loved it. And then basically Jennifer Morey herself heard about this episode. And this is a story she told us backstage in Dallas, I believe.
01:20:55
Dallas, yeah. When she came on to our live, we invited her to the live show, but we first got an email from her. And that was one of the scariest moments where truly it was fully like, now I understand what we're doing.
01:21:09
Yeah. And the reality of what we're doing. And I think that this is like truly the beginning of a shift because all of the kind of conjecture, faraway feeling that we had about the topics we were talking about and the people we were talking about.
01:21:23
It was like the wave after wave of lessons over and over of like real people, real experiences, real relatives, real survivors, all those things.
01:21:32
So that email from Jennifer Moria, I was like, oh, she's going to take that down.
01:21:37
And she said, basically, my friend said that she had heard this podcast and they told my story and I was really nervous.
01:21:45
I sat down and listened and I loved it. And I was so moved. And thank you so much.
01:21:51
And it was her telling us thank you. And I was so grateful. I was like, it was amazing.
01:21:58
So then when we went to Dallas, we knew that's where she lived. So we were like, if you in any way want to be there, we would love to.
01:22:04
If you want to just watch it, if you want to come on stage. And so she came backstage.
01:22:09
She walked on stage as our surprise guest at the end of that show in Dallas. And the audience went insane.
01:22:15
And then she, you can listen to episode 95. You can listen to all of it, how it went.
01:22:21
Episode 95 is a live show called Jesus with a G. And Jennifer Moore gives people a pep talk at the end.
01:22:28
That's one of the most beautiful things that I'm so grateful, of all the things I'm grateful for because of this podcast.
01:22:34
Because of us doing this and the way it's gone, good or bad. The fact that that moment happened, I think, is like, those are the things.
01:22:45
To me, then it was like, oh, we just need to start doing stuff like this. And this will be the legacy.
01:22:51
Like, we did her right. And that felt so good. I remember the whole show, I was so nervous.
01:22:57
Yes. The entire time. And she's a lawyer, too. Which is just like, you just are always nervous around lawyers because you're going to say the wrong fucking thing.
01:23:03
That's right. And also, yeah, she had the right to come on and say whatever. If she wanted to come on and say hey you guys are really insensitive and I think you should do a different thing We would have loved to have received that as well Definitely We just kind of wanted the fact that she even wanted to be there We really loved But then how she was was just very much what I have seen a lot of times at least of the survivors on I Survived the people who are like truly stronger than they were before
01:23:33
And it's just like she is such an inspirational person. And she got to kind of represent herself fully and freely.
01:23:38
It was great. Yeah. Yeah. All right. That was powerful. So should we wrap this up?
01:23:44
Yeah, let's wrap it up. When I saw, I remembered this title. I love Georgia's cat Mimi a lot.
01:23:50
She's really, she's an iconoclast and she's a rebel. And she has the tiniest cat mouth that's ever existed in the cat species.
01:23:59
Angry heart, tiny mouth. Yeah. She's going to live forever out of spite to Cookie and Moe, like just to spite them.
01:24:06
Yeah, she's mad. But so we named this podcast, What About Mimi? Yeah. But if we were naming it today, which we always name it after something that happened in the episode, here's a couple options.
01:24:17
Let's see. I apologize for calling the British crime series Rosemary and Thyme, which is from probably 1998, I would guess.
01:24:27
I called that a grandma crime show. And so in Corrections Corner, I said I loved seeing people take the time to drink tea and eat cookies in British procedurals.
01:24:39
So the suggestion is drink tea and eat cookies. Yeah, that's a solid one. And then our whole gift conversation and not doing it, that would be called friendship rules.
01:24:50
And I think friendship rules are an important part of adult friendships. So let's do it.
01:24:53
Very true. How about we respect some boundaries? Yeah. Come on. Get involved. Thanks for listening, you guys, to Rewind.
01:25:01
We appreciate it. We hope you like it. We hope you keep listening. We'll keep making them.
01:25:05
If so, let us know in the comments. There's also, besides this old episode, there's like 400 others, as Georgia was saying.
01:25:12
So, you know, just enjoy the back catalog as much as you'd like to and stay sexy.
01:25:17
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? 10-10 shots fired in City Hall building.
01:25:32
How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder.
01:25:37
This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics.
01:25:43
I screamed, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery that may or may not have been political,
01:25:52
that may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall on the iHeartRadio app,
01:25:57
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall,
01:26:07
In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security,
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one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS
01:26:20
and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app,
01:26:28
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How much do you weigh, Wanda?
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Right now, I'm about 130. I'm at 183. We should race. No, I want to leave here with my original hips.
01:26:39
On the podcast, The Matchup with Aliyah, I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests.
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On a recent episode, I sat down with undisputed boxing champ, Clarissa Shields and comedian Wanda Sykes
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to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard, the art of trash talk and what it really means to be ladylike.
01:26:54
Open your free iHeartRadio app, search The Matchup with Aliyah and listen now. Brought to you by Novartis,
01:26:59
founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.