00:00:00
This is exactly right. Secret World of Roald Dahl. Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:36
How much do you weigh, Wanda? Right now, I'm about 130. I'm at 183. We should race.
00:00:40
No, I want to leave here with my original hips. On the podcast, The Matchup with Lalia, I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests.
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On a recent episode, I sat down with undisputed boxing champ, Clarissa Shields, and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard,
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the art of trash talk and what it really means to be ladylike. Open your free iHeartRadio app.
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Search the matchup with Aaliyah and listen now. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.
00:01:06
Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Moms. So I'm Leanne.
00:01:11
This is my best friend, Janet. And we have been joined at the hip since high school.
00:01:15
Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips.
00:01:21
This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.
00:01:26
With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a bogo.
00:01:32
Well, then you got them. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:38
Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark. That's Karen Kilgariff.
00:02:02
And now we're going to podcast at you. Ready? Here it comes. Begin. Begin again.
00:02:07
And now act. An act. Act like you can podcast. What do you got? I have nothing. Oh, well, then great, because I have plenty for you.
00:02:20
Okay, great. Let's do it. Last week, I told a very disturbing story of a woman who claimed to have found a finger in her chili at Wendy's.
00:02:29
We'll never forget. I mean, none of us shall ever. but in that story I name checked my friend Erica Sobel who I went to high school with
00:02:38
and as I expected she texted me because she is a not only a day one listener but she is a
00:02:46
a week to weaker nice given to give a different title to people she she texted me lol crying
00:02:55
laughing face thank you for the Wendy's shout out yes I worked at Wendy's for years sophomore
00:03:00
to senior. Wow. All of high school. Her parents were those like, you will go out and get a job
00:03:05
and learn reality. Amazing. For the record, we had very strict food safety training. When this
00:03:11
story came out, I knew it was obviously bullshit. She's a Wendy's believer. She wasn't just an
00:03:16
employee. Like if you work somewhere that long, you're going to hate it if it sucks. Yes. You
00:03:21
know, you're going to jump on any story that's like, hooray. And she was like, absolutely not.
00:03:26
She said, as I recall, the chili was made in the afternoon. Burgers were grilled fresh, never frozen.
00:03:32
And we saved the patties that didn't get sold in a certain amount of time to chop up and add to a bagged pre-made chili mix.
00:03:40
I read that somewhere, too. Someone else said that of like, it's the like sad hamburgers that didn't make it onto a hamburger bun chopped up into the chili.
00:03:48
Yeah, which makes perfect sense. It does. They're using every part of the buffalo, which is not buffalo.
00:03:55
No. People love chili. This is so funny, Erica. People love chili on the baked potato, taco salads, chili fries.
00:04:04
Taco salad? There's a piling hot fucking spoonful of chili on it? But right onto some iceberg?
00:04:11
That sounds good. I did it. I did it. Did you know they had chili fries? I had no idea.
00:04:16
No, but it makes sense if they have fries and chili. I mean, and then it says, I got a text from my murdery no cousin in Baltimore early this morning.
00:04:23
She was dying. You mentioned my name. Oh, my God. And then the very last text is, oh, and just saying, I never ate the chili.
00:04:30
So when did she send that? Friday. Because you didn't respond to her. No. There's no response.
00:04:37
Well, the first thing was I saw it and didn't have her number in my phone. Oh, okay.
00:04:42
So immediately was like none of my business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I am the queen of like, what's this link you just sent me?
00:04:49
Oh, no. You have a toll ticket you never paid? I better pay it. Literally. Did you do that?
00:04:55
I didn't touch the link, but the toll ticket thing. Yeah. Toll ticket thing was like haunting me where I'm like, because I'm always going over the San Rafael Bridge when I go home.
00:05:04
Right. And you're not allowed to, like, you just have to run it and then they send you the toll.
00:05:10
Because we do the 110 to the airport. There's that easy pass. Oh, yeah. Which is like golden.
00:05:16
Yeah. So I was like, oh, maybe I had been to the airport recently. And Vince was like, fucking no, don't click on it.
00:05:23
Don't go nowhere near this. You guys, it's a scale. Everyone's like, no shit. Yeah.
00:05:27
But it's like, oh. Thanks, Grandma. As if like the toll place would be like, it's sent from 134 at Hotmail.
00:05:33
They told me that I have to pay my. Right. We're just like, oh, I guess they're making their employees use their personal Hotmail accounts.
00:05:39
Oh, well. Here, I'll answer you. Don't trust anything. Trust nothing. Yeah. But.
00:05:46
But please trust random gifts. What is this? We'll just see. Okay Karen just gave me a big gorgeous fucking gift bag with gorgeous fucking tissue coming out of it Yeah Okay Really beautifully expertly put together Which means you didn do it Exactly right You impressed It looks like a wine bottle
00:06:05
gift bag. You paused like, I'm not now. I'm not trying to insult you. Yeah. If you said it was nice. Okay. What is this? It's a can of something.
00:06:14
A can of Wendy's chili. Did you know they made that? No. Who gave this to us? Allison went and found it.
00:06:22
Allison and Alejandro, I believe. But I think Allison was the one that searched for it.
00:06:28
I had no clue that they canned Wendy's chili. I'd eat that. I would eat this. And like any kind of hesitation I would have about not eating it is false.
00:06:38
Is from a fake story. Right. Right. Which sucks. It sucks. It's going to be frustrating.
00:06:44
But then, yeah, you're just always going to have toe or finger, I guess. Yeah. And fucking chilly in your mind when you go there.
00:06:51
I mean, I guess. Thought you'd really enjoy, though, that you can actually get it in cans.
00:06:56
I'm so happy for that. Thank you. I'll eat that. Anything else that you've been looking at or absorbing?
00:07:01
I've been reading books. You love a book. I love books, but like there's not much going on.
00:07:07
Well, then let's just get into the show like regular true crime podcast. Okay. Wow, that was a quickie.
00:07:13
Before we tell you our stories, we're going to give you some highlights from our very own podcast network, Exactly Right Media.
00:07:20
That's right. So, for example, this week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul dive into the chilling tale of John Wesley Elkins, the infamous 13-year-old who murdered his father and stepmother in 1889.
00:07:32
Whoa. And over on Do You Need a Ride, Karen and Chris welcome the always hilarious and delightfully witty Solomon Giorgio. Love him.
00:07:40
And speaking of Karen, she joins the Banana Boys this week to talk about some of the world's most outlandish headlines.
00:07:47
How fun. And this week on This Podcast Will Kill You, get ready for a hard-hitting discussion about sildenafil, the medication used to treat everyone's favorite dysfunction, erectile dysfunction.
00:08:00
You did want me to say it along with you, right? Everyone said it with me. And just so you know, we've restocked the store with all your favorite merch.
00:08:06
Like, for example, did you miss the chance to buy one of our legendary crow shirts?
00:08:12
Well, ca-ca, this is your signal that they're restocked. Can I give you the way that Allison wanted you to say it?
00:08:20
Oh, let me hear it. I was supposed to remember it. I forgot. Well, ca-ca. Well, I'm glad you did it and not me because I'm not doing that.
00:08:28
You can do a crow impression. Only when not told to. You know what I mean? Yeah, I get it.
00:08:34
I don't like to be told how to crow. Totally understand. Also get ready for summer with a Stay Sexy Don't Get Murdered Muscle Tee. You can warn the followers in your life with Jess Rotter's You're in a Cult design. Those are now available in both unisex and women's tees. There's so much going on over there. Don't miss out.
00:08:51
Go to MyFavoriteMurder.com. you know the famous author Roald Dahl he thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG
00:08:59
but did you know he was a spy neither did I you can hear all about his wildlife story
00:09:06
in the podcast The Secret World of Roald Dahl all episodes are out now was this before he wrote his stories
00:09:12
it must have been what? okay I don't think that's true I'm telling you the guy was a spy
00:09:17
binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl now on the iHeartRadio app
00:09:22
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall.
00:09:29
In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security,
00:09:36
one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS
00:09:42
and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app,
00:09:50
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. they hit a BOGO. Well, then you got it. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
00:10:25
or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, you're first. I'm sitting back. Okay, sit on back,
00:10:33
because when this story was first pitched to me, and I think it was either by Maren or by
00:10:39
Alejandra Keck, our producer, I couldn't believe. Like, I think I'd heard, like, inklings, I guess,
00:10:46
is the right word of this story around a little bit, but I'd never like gotten the full scope of
00:10:53
what we were talking about. So the story begins in France in 2020 as an online community of web
00:11:01
sleuths is hard at work. Okay. Love them. Love it already. What a kickoff, right? So this community
00:11:09
is in France. They call themselves the fourth I corporation and they're currently doing what
00:11:15
they do best, which is combing through news reports and interviews, building out timelines
00:11:19
of specific crimes, and calling sources around the world to verify their information.
00:11:25
Like, what a dream. What a dream to do. Like, fuck crocheting. This is what I want to do with my fucking retirement.
00:11:32
Excuse me, listener. She did not mean that. I didn't mean fuck crochet. I mean, crochet while you do this.
00:11:36
Yes. That's all I meant. Yes, yes. Oh, my God. I just pissed off so many fucking people.
00:11:39
Oh, my God. Etsy just exploded. So the Fourth Eye Corporation does all of this in hopes of untangling what is at that time a very murky backstory around one man a well French author and criminology expert who began his career as the former owner of the Parisian bookstore The Third Eye Okay Right So this is the Fourth Eye Corporation looking into The Third Eye
00:12:05
Like fourth generation or fourth wave feminism. Exactly. Got it. Just like that.
00:12:10
Just like it. And The Third Eye was known for its crime and mystery collection. So this man that owned that
00:12:16
bookstore has built a successful career catering to the people exactly like you and me and the
00:12:22
members of the Fourth Eye Corporation and many people listening to this podcast right now.
00:12:26
But now his career has made him the focus of this group of people's research and investigations,
00:12:32
but for all the wrong reasons. This is the story of the rise and fall of true crime charlatan
00:12:38
Stéphane Bourgois. I'm excited. Have you heard of any of this? Not a fucking moment of this.
00:12:44
Really? No. Okay. Like maybe it'll get familiar, but right now. Okay. It's a fresh one. I love
00:12:49
that okay so the main sources used in marron's research today are an article by lauren collins
00:12:55
entitled the unraveling of an expert on serial killers which ran in the new yorker in 2022 so
00:13:03
this is a very recent story okay also an article by scott sayer entitled what lies beneath the
00:13:08
secret of france's top serial killer expert i get it what lies it's because it's lying it's lies
00:13:13
And I wonder if lies was like in red. Lies. Or italicized. Yep, exactly. Laying to the side.
00:13:22
That article was in The Guardian in 2021. Both of those sources are heavily cited in this story.
00:13:28
So thank you, Lauren and Scott. The rest of the sources are in our show notes. So we'll start at the beginning.
00:13:35
Long before the Fourth Eye Corporation exists, this is Stéphane Bourgoin's origin story.
00:13:41
He's born in 1953, a decade after the end of World War II, to very wealthy and socially connected parents. The Bourgois' huge apartment has a view of L'Arc de Triomphe.
00:13:55
I've heard of it. And a staff of domestic servants that work at the family's beck and call.
00:14:01
Damn. Very specific upbringing. Yeah, especially after World War II. I don't think a lot of people were wealthy.
00:14:07
Yeah. Then. Right. In Europe? Yeah. Yeah, true. So Young-Stefan describes an idyllic childhood where he bounces around mid-century Paris,
00:14:17
sometimes spending entire days at the movie theater, watching films back to back.
00:14:22
Now, when I got to that part, I was like, but they only play one movie at a time at the movie theater.
00:14:28
It's not TV. Right. So I'm like, is this even true? Back to back of one is still back to back.
00:14:34
Just back to back of the same movie. You're just like, Harold and Maude, again, again.
00:14:39
That is a great movie. Yeah. So Stéphane loves movies so much that by his late teens, he's doing everything he can to break into the Parisian film world.
00:14:48
He's especially drawn to genre film like horror or science fiction. And eventually he connects with the publisher of a genre zine named Alain Shlakov.
00:14:58
So he starts writing for Alain and the two become friends. In 1975, Alain is working tirelessly to launch a film festival and Stéphane is helping out his assistant.
00:15:10
Until it comes to light that Stéphane has actually been contacting filmmakers behind his boss's back, pretending to be his boss in the hopes that he can acquire enough films to create his own competing film festival.
00:15:25
Right. Get your own ideas. Get your own gimmicks. It's almost like... Get your own contacts.
00:15:30
Copy his gimmick. Right. Or is that your only choice? Like you kind of don't know what else to do.
00:15:36
Yeah, because you don't have any ideas of your own. Journalist Scott Sayre later reports, quote, Elaine cut ties with Stefan immediately. Stefan's festival took place but flopped.
00:15:47
Damn. Well, yeah. You can't just do it and be like, no, mine. Yeah. My competing festival.
00:15:54
Yeah. Okay, so this, of course, is a bad look and a bad move. Also, in genre film. It's not like all of film.
00:16:02
It's very specific, I would imagine, a smaller set of people. But Stéphane shakes it off and heads to the U.S., hoping to break into Hollywood.
00:16:13
Once here, he reportedly gets some work writing pornographic films. I bet that was so easy back then.
00:16:18
I mean, they are very plot-driven and can be a lot like Memento at times. Am I coming or am I going?
00:16:28
Literally, is it linear? Is anything linear? Are you the pizza man or the plumber?
00:16:32
Those are the two choices. When he eventually returns to France, he comes back with what one friend calls, quote, stars in his eyes about the United States. He's also got suitcases stuffed with comic books, memorabilia and countless stories of meeting actors and directors.
00:16:50
But Stéphane also returns with a much more tragic and disturbing story. He tells his inner circle that while he's in the U.S., he meets and falls in love with a woman named Elin.
00:17:02
The French pronunciation of Helen. Elin. Then one day, while he's at work, Elin is murdered.
00:17:10
And as Stéphane tells his friends, quote, cut up into pieces. What year is this, around?
00:17:16
75. Okay. Yeah. Hmm. Stéphane says he was the one who discovered her body. Oh, my God.
00:17:24
He's around 30 years old at the time. So, of course, this horrible, devastating, and traumatic event that happens while he's alone in a new country.
00:17:34
Sure. But despite all that, Stéphane starts working at a local secondhand bookstore, The Third Eye, and he loves it so much that he soon buys it outright and basically becomes his own boss.
00:17:46
The Third Eye Bookstore is a hub for people that are into true crime and genre fiction in Paris. Can you imagine?
00:17:54
No There gotta be a cat Tell me there a cat There gotta be a cat and an array of scarves and berets that you would kill for Smoking indoors around all the paper
00:18:05
Oh, reeks. Did you read the new Anne Houl? Would be the question. Good one. Thank you so much.
00:18:12
Finally using my French education of two years. St. Vincent's High School. So Stéphane is such a fixture in the shop that he inspires a few writers to create characters
00:18:22
that are kind of based on him for their books. He also becomes a go-to translator for books written by famous English language crime and horror authors,
00:18:33
like the author Robert Bloch, who wrote Psycho. At the time, Stéphane is earning a reputation for his truly impressive and encyclopedic knowledge of serial killers.
00:18:44
Into the 1990s, the people around him start noticing that he's becoming borderline obsessed with the topic.
00:18:51
Scott Sayre writes that, quote, initially his friends found it amusing or at least inoffensive,
00:18:57
but it soon grew tiresome. He spoke of nothing else. Wow. End quote. I can't talk shit on that, can I?
00:19:03
I mean, there is no judgment here, but only in this one small part of the story.
00:19:08
Yeah. But it's interesting because the concept of serial killers basically kind of broke in the late 70s when Ted Bundy,
00:19:17
like there were some big stories that broke. Yeah. There was spree killing. There was multiple murders, but they never understood actual the way we understand them today, serial killers.
00:19:27
Which I think has to do with the team from Mindhunter going in and basically trying to, as the FBI, study them and talk about it and be like, there's something here to.
00:19:39
Right. There's a pattern. There's a difference between a spree killer and a serial killer.
00:19:44
And a crime of passion. Right. This is a different thing and we need to delineate. These are people that are planning and doing it for a totally different reason.
00:19:53
Which was very compelling. I mean, that is why that whole genre kind of came up in the 80s and 90s the way it did.
00:20:00
But in the early 80s and 90s in France, basically that conversation hadn't really come to the cultural fore yet.
00:20:08
Of course, France had its own history of sadistic and repeat offenders, but the idea of serial killers being their own category of criminal that can be profiled by law enforcement hadn't hit the mainstream yet.
00:20:20
So Stéphane is arguably on the forefront of this type of thinking in France. Years later, a prosecutor will tell The New Yorker that, quote, he was one of the first people in France to say that serial killers weren't only in America.
00:20:34
Sure. So Stefan is dedicated to this budding obsession. He's known to record newscasts about murders, accidents, and natural disasters, which he keeps in an ever-growing VHS collection.
00:20:48
He also amasses pictures of corpses and cadavers that he likes to show off to guests.
00:20:53
No, thank you. Not in the least. But I do want to remind the audience listening, especially the younger people, this was the time before YouTube, the time before the internet.
00:21:03
there was a kind of like especially in the stand-up comedy world it was seen as underground
00:21:09
yeah but it was essentially like here's the things people aren't talking about or here's the things
00:21:14
that people you know that is taboo in some way i say i rented faces of death multiple times right
00:21:21
what was the blood on the asphalt my high school boyfriend and i would just fucking sit and watch
00:21:26
on a saturday night so i have nothing to say until it was organized in this way where it's like it's
00:21:32
actually, you're not like the worst person in the world for having this curiosity about what is taboo and scary and horrifying in our world.
00:21:41
Yeah. Like as human beings. So I'm saying you're not. At the time, though, society said you absolutely are.
00:21:49
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So Stefan has this unnerving habit of telling shocking and disturbing stories about murder in social settings.
00:21:59
Stop it. Just you can't do that. We've learned that. We've learned that by doing it.
00:22:04
By doing it and starting a podcast about it. It's our origin story. Truly. For sure.
00:22:09
But for example, Stefan liked to tell how his mother's first husband was decapitated by Nazis.
00:22:15
Jesus. So sometimes we're just trying to make a connection with other people quickly and efficiently.
00:22:23
And we don't understand social cues. And that's understandable. Yeah. And you're kind of looking for people who are like, this is horrifying.
00:22:29
Are you also like compelled yet horrified by it? Are you my people? Are you my people?
00:22:35
Still, I'm like, if I was at that dinner party, I would be like, this isn't what I'm, this isn't my interest.
00:22:41
No. But it is Stefan's interest and he has found it. And he figures soon he would like to figure out a way to combine that this interest and obsession with his first love of cinema.
00:22:54
And in the early 1990s, after Silence of the Lambs comes out and is like a basically a worldwide hit, it feels like this is the right time to produce a documentary about serial killers.
00:23:06
So Stéphane reaches out to a film producer named Carol Carangé. So this will mostly be Carol's project, but she's excited to work with Stéphane because he is becoming known in certain circles as a basically a budding expert in this topic.
00:23:21
And they seem the two of them seem in alignment on their tone of the movie. They do not want to sensationalize serial killers. Instead, Carroll says, quote, we wanted to know if over time these killers had come to understand the harm they'd done if they'd question themselves.
00:23:37
Interesting. OK. Yeah. So during the production of this, the crew travels to the United States, first to Quantico, where they managed to land an interview with famous profiler John Douglas.
00:23:49
Wow. And then down to Florida, where they're given access to interview two convicted serial killers.
00:23:56
I bet you can guess one of them. Ted Bundy. No. Close, though. Who's the one that loved talking?
00:24:03
Otis Toole, who basically confessed to every murder. We don't even know if he was a serial killer.
00:24:08
Right. No. The other is John Gerard Schaefer, who I literally just covered recently.
00:24:14
He's the cop that actually started killing young women. Remember him? Yes, 100%.
00:24:20
So those are the two interviews that they get in Florida. Then they go to California to meet with Ed Kemper.
00:24:26
So if you want to hear me cover John Gerard Schaefer's story, that's episode 446. The title of that episode is I'm Michael Caine. Do you remember that?
00:24:39
Otis Toole gets covered in George's story about the disappearance of Adam Walsh in episode 242, which is called Spoilerama. And Ed Kemper is covered in episode 39.
00:24:53
Wow. Early episode 39, which is entitled Kind of Loco. So Ed Kemper specifically seems like the perfect interview subject for this film because they're interested in whether or not these murderers have come to question what they've done. And as Scott Sayre points out, quote, Kemper was thought to have grown exceptionally introspective and regretful. He could provide the analysis that they wanted. But Carol's too scared to meet with these killers in person.
00:25:22
Definitely. Never would want that in my life. So she and Stéphane write out the interview questions together.
00:25:30
But when it comes time to go and meet in person, Stéphane and a cameraman are the only ones that go into the prison.
00:25:37
I also think these killers would talk and have a different experience with a woman that isn't as authentic.
00:25:44
And I just wouldn't. I wouldn't go there. Absolutely. Yeah. So Carol gets the tapes and then listens back to these interviews. And when she does, she's horrified to learn that Stéphane went completely off script and in the worst possible way.
00:25:59
He was not remotely interested in whether or not these men had come to regret their actions. Instead, he asked them inappropriate, salacious questions that seemed designed to produce the most disgusting answers in the most detail possible.
00:26:14
Oh, no. For example, he repeatedly asks Ed Kemper about his, quote, fantasies of decapitating women.
00:26:23
Carol also learns that Stefan brought several copies of a very violent book that Schaefer wrote for him to autograph.
00:26:32
So this documentary is eventually completed with the title An Investigation into Deviants.
00:26:38
He's like fanboying over these serial killers. Yes, exactly. And Carol just never talks to him again.
00:26:45
Good for her. She will later say, quote, I saw Stéphane change. When he had the killers in front of him, it was as if he was sitting across from his idols.
00:26:54
Yikes. Yeah. Oh, that's so chilling when she was listening. That's a movie itself.
00:26:59
Yes, it is. Her finding out this person. Oh, my God. Yes. That she's supposed to be like co-producing a documentary with.
00:27:06
Traveling in a foreign country with. Yeah. So Carol cuts him out of her life. But this behavior does nothing to slow Stéphane's rise.
00:27:17
Shortly after an investigation into Deviant's airs, and while he's still working in French film and TV,
00:27:24
Stéphane publishes his first book on serial killers, focusing on Jack the Ripper.
00:27:29
He'll spend the next two decades publishing more than 70 true crime books. Too many books.
00:27:36
Take a break. So many books. Learn how to crochet. I'm just so confused. From now on, I'm so hard on crocheting.
00:27:44
You're like the most positive, crochet positive. I'm just going to crochet when I'm podcasting for the rest of my fucking life.
00:27:51
Stéphane's becoming the go-to expert on criminology in France. He isn't just writing or working on documentaries anymore.
00:27:59
He is now giving talks to law enforcement officials, analyzing high-profile cases on TV shows,
00:28:05
and positioning himself as a serious authority on how serial killers operate. operate. If he was a woman, it would be fine. You know, but it's there's something because I
00:28:15
clearly know where this is going for you personally. Yeah. I thought you were being sarcastic because
00:28:19
it's like this is such a great example. And it reminds me of the staircase of the blood spatter
00:28:25
expert. Yeah. Where there's so much assumed. No one asked the question. Right. I'm sorry. How did
00:28:30
you become an expert on something? Where did you get your education? Where is this coming from? Yeah.
00:28:34
And because now you're on TV telling experts how to do it. It's nefarious. So at the time, Stefan seems to have the credentials to back it up.
00:28:46
He claims to have personally interviewed dozens of the world's most notorious serial killers and name drops some of the most notorious like David Berkowitz and Charles Manson.
00:28:55
And sometimes he shares harrowing stories from these encounters. For example, he says John Wayne Gacy once grabbed his ass during a prison interview and that during his conversation with angel of death killer Donald Harvey that you covered at our live episode 110, our live show in Columbus, Ohio.
00:29:17
Yes. We've done all of them. We've done a lot of shows. Yeah, we have. So Harvey murdered dozens of patients working as an orderly at a hospital.
00:29:28
Stéphane claims Harvey confessed to 17 additional murders when he talked to him.
00:29:34
So he got him to confess. The way experienced detectives and investigators could not.
00:29:40
He even claims the FBI respects his expertise so much, they invited him to an exclusive training program at Quantico where he learned the ropes from John Douglas himself.
00:29:51
He's confusing it for Silence of the Lambs. He confusing everything like his whole life with everything he ever read Which is very much like oh you and your little bookstore Right Reading all this stuff absorbing it loving it
00:30:05
And needing to be part of it. Yeah. And then becoming part of it. Yeah. So for years, no one publicly questions any of this expertise.
00:30:14
But there are people in Stefan's private life that don't believe anything he says.
00:30:19
friends will later tell writer lauren collins of the new yorker that the quantico training program
00:30:24
for example quote triggered rounds of knowing laughter among us because we all knew it was
00:30:30
absolutely bogus yeah then there's also the issue with the story of elaine the woman he claims he
00:30:39
was dating in the u.s who he claims he found brutally murdered for years he's been privately
00:30:46
sharing this story with friends and family, they are skeptical. But of course, who's going to
00:30:51
question a story like that? Right. And there's no internet to fucking look that shit up on anyway.
00:30:55
Exactly. So they're like, but okay. Stefan had never shared it publicly until the year 2000.
00:31:02
Yeah. See, a guy like that would have shared it publicly if it were true, right? Like he wants as
00:31:06
much credit as he can. Yes. There's no reason to keep it quiet if you're like that much of a
00:31:11
narcissist right and there's no way that a narcissist who loves like serial killers had
00:31:19
that experience right right right because without talking about it right right exactly without going
00:31:25
wide and being like now i wrote a book and now i did this thing yeah so now that he's a well-known
00:31:30
by the year 2000 a well-known expert in serial killers he starts to claim it is a land's murder
00:31:36
that got him interested in this topic. And then he has a picture that he shows off of the two of them together.
00:31:42
But he doesn't have his own story straight. In some media appearances, he'll call her Eileen,
00:31:49
saying she was his wife, not his girlfriend. Later, she'll be downgraded to, quote, a very close friend.
00:31:55
So this story also seems suspiciously one-dimensional when he salaciously notes that he found her body, quote,
00:32:03
mutilated, raped, and practically decapitated, end quote, and that her killer was ultimately
00:32:10
caught and currently sitting on death row in the United States. Other than those two facts,
00:32:17
he doesn't have much to say about her as a person. Yikes. Got like the jinx vibes.
00:32:23
Yes. Right? Completely. Yeah. Somehow, despite those discrepancies, the story only adds to his popularity and credibility
00:32:31
in the field. It more or less explains his eccentricities and it turns him into a sympathetic
00:32:37
character. Like this is why he's so obsessed, which he is stealing from Dominic Dunn.
00:32:42
Right. But I mean, like it didn't happen in that order. But Dominic Dunn having to go through
00:32:46
the murder of his own daughter and then write about the crime, you know, for major publications
00:32:52
is it's all these things where everything is like stolen here, stolen there. And why would anyone catch it? Like most most like day to day people have not had an experience like that.
00:33:03
So when they hear someone talk about it, they wouldn't be like, why would you make that up?
00:33:07
It sounds awful. Yes, completely. Stéphane even starts communicating with survivors of violent crime.
00:33:15
Lauren Collins notes, quote, they saw him as a kindred survivor, someone who could be trusted to treat them with integrity because of his personal experience.
00:33:24
But it turns out everything about Stéphane Bourgois' life and his career is worth scrutinizing. And in a particularly troubling example of his questionable character, Stéphane uses his reputation as the bereaved loved one of a victim to meet a woman named Dahina Tsai.
00:33:43
Dahina was just 14 years old when she was abducted and raped by a man who would then go on to murder seven women.
00:33:51
Oh, my God. So she, as a 14-year-old girl, escaped the clutches of a serial killer.
00:33:57
Jesus. Her trauma from this attack, of course, I'm sure was manifested in a million ways.
00:34:03
But one of those ways was a very intense fear of spiders, which somehow Stefan learns about her.
00:34:11
He invites her to dinner at his house one night. And when she arrives, he begins showing her graphic crime scene photos.
00:34:18
and then at one point as a funny joke puts a plastic spider on her shoulder dude
00:34:25
fucking straight to jail right dahina will later say quote i was paralyzed and he was laughing
00:34:31
i think it gave him pleasure to mess with my mind so i don't know if we're dealing i don't
00:34:39
you know we always love to i love to for sure analyze and like diagnose people totally to me
00:34:45
that is sociopathic. Yeah. That goes beyond. That's closer to psychopath. Yeah. Too.
00:34:51
If we're going to diagnose someone, let's go all the fucking way. Let's do our famous double diagnosis
00:34:56
of sociopath psychopath because they're all the same. They could get more mad at us
00:35:00
for another diagnosis. They're going to be mad at us for one diagnosis. We might as well fucking go all the way.
00:35:04
Slap them all on there. Yeah. And just being a jerk. So also just that horrible thing
00:35:11
of you have basically lured this woman. there because she thinks that like there's you're a famous person you're an author whoever you're
00:35:22
going to spend time with this person and talk about what they've gone honored to be with this
00:35:26
person it's a thing of like that every fucking woman has ever experienced of like oh shit i
00:35:31
trusted the wrong person and now i'm in their home apartment whatever it is it's like oh no
00:35:38
how do i get myself out of this and then when i am so paralyzed and horrified that you put a plastic
00:35:43
Yeah, because you know my fucking vulnerability is so well. Then you just say it's only a joke.
00:35:48
Monster, right. Calm down. Monster style. Yeah. Yeah. So a few years later St publishes a graphic novel featuring Dahina story of her assault No no thank you He does it without permission without even warning
00:36:06
And she takes legal action. She actually gets the book pulled from the market, but the damage is done.
00:36:12
Dahina will later say, quote, it was like being defiled a second time. But that's not the end of Stéphane's troubling behavior.
00:36:20
And I think this is maybe a step up. So he is a big boaster and a big bragger, and he starts bragging that he somehow managed to get a hold of John Gerard Schaefer's remains.
00:36:33
What? His cremains, I guess. And that's the serial killer whose autograph he got, right?
00:36:40
Correct. So basically, Stéphane claims that after Schaefer's execution, that he somehow managed to get a hold of his remains.
00:36:49
Like UPS was like, here you go. And you've got a hookup in the what? Like, what are you talking about?
00:36:56
You've just signed for it. What the fuck? Any jail that would put someone to death would not be like, and I guess we'll just be real free and easy.
00:37:03
Right. You'd think it would have to be the closest. Next of kin. Next of kin. Thank you.
00:37:07
Right. Okay. So he says he has them. And he starts teasing that he's going to give a small portion of those remains to anyone who buys his new book.
00:37:16
Oh, dude. That's disgusting. So still, and despite this, Stéphane enjoys a mostly positive professional reputation.
00:37:27
I think it also points to what a strange time, especially the late the 90s and the late 90s, where that was when like John Wayne Gacy's paintings started getting really popular.
00:37:37
This is what was going on before we started this podcast, I feel like, even up until then, where it's like, we are not into true crime the same way that other people are into true crime.
00:37:46
Yes. I think it just shows how different the obsession was. And I think what everyone assumed you and I were obsessed with when really it was something totally different. And thankfully, this podcast has shown that.
00:37:56
Right. Thankfully, the whole trend of true crime kind of coming to the fore and basically being like, instead of following the story after the fact, it's much more, why are we talking about this in the first place?
00:38:08
Right. So now it's 2019, and we are several decades into Stéphane Bourgois' career.
00:38:16
Okay. And so 2019, someone makes a French true crime Facebook group, and someone on that Facebook group writes a post basically arguing that Stéphane Bourgois, while prolific, is a bad writer with questionable talent.
00:38:34
And then they go further and they basically cast doubt on his entire background.
00:38:39
Who is it? We never find out. Although, and then I wrote, surely the arguments ensued, right?
00:38:46
Because that is what Facebook is for, fighting with bots. And so from there, basically 30 skeptics begin a separate private chat to dig deeper.
00:38:58
And this is basically the beginning. This is where the fourth eye corporation is born.
00:39:04
Got it. Because at first, these web sleuths suspect plagiarism. So they start combing through Stéphane's books to cross-check them against English language sources.
00:39:14
So they have to do this, like, in a different language. Because the thinking, which is so smart, is the language barrier would make it easier for him to steal from other people's books.
00:39:24
Totally. They also spend hours poring over Stéphane's writing, reaching out to people who he claims he's collaborated with, contacting the prisons to verify his supposed jailhouse interviews, and scouring the internet for recordings of lectures and public appearances that he'd given throughout his career.
00:39:42
Oh, man. Fact-checking is a bitch. I mean, and there's so—it's decades of a career to fact-check.
00:39:48
Yeah. The 4th Eye Corporation eventually concludes that Stéphane isn't exactly copying and pasting other writers' words.
00:39:56
What he's doing is stealing their life stories and passing them off as his own life story.
00:40:03
As one very disgusting example, he claimed he was once splattered with maggots and body parts while visiting at a crime scene as a helicopter lifted off nearby.
00:40:14
What? There is a grain of truth to this story, but it's the account of a renowned South African forensic psychologist who it happened to. And that South African forensic psychologist is a woman named Mickey Pistorius. Mickey Pistorius is actually the aunt of Oscar Pistorius, the famed Olympian who murdered his girlfriend.
00:40:39
Yeah. Which is very odd and those things are really connected. The point is, it did not happen to Stéphane.
00:40:47
He only read about it. So members of the 4th Eye Corporation are now looking for anyone who can confirm any of Stéphane's jailhouse interviews with notorious murderers, which is what he's built his entire career on.
00:41:00
They believe that Stéphane, who claims to have interviewed around 80 murderers, has actually spoken with less than 10.
00:41:08
Some of his details in those conversations also seem ripped off. For example, when he talks about meeting Charles Manson and David Berkowitz, the stories are suspiciously similar to John Douglas's stories and what he wrote about in Mindhunter.
00:41:23
When members of the Fourth Eye Corporation reach out to John Douglas to confirm whether Stephane was trained at Quantico, Douglas replies, quote, Bourgois is delusional and an imposter.
00:41:36
That guy was spicy. Fuck, I love that guy. I know. It's good. But he's basically just like, no, that's all bullshit.
00:41:42
Yeah. Then there's Stéphane's story about the woman who was murdered, Elin or Eileen.
00:41:49
Mm-hmm. He called them both names. Members of the 4th Eye Corporation pick up all the breadcrumbs that St has left about her where she lived when she was killed the idea that her murderer is currently on death row They scour records to find a victim and a convicted murderer who fit all of the timeline
00:42:08
all of it, and they cannot find anyone. The Sluice eventually conclude there is no Hélène and or
00:42:16
Eileen. As for the photo that Stéphane has shared of the two of them together, the Sluice believes
00:42:22
that the woman in the photo could be an adult film actress named Dominique St. Clair, who
00:42:29
Stéphane may have met while he was working in porn in Southern California. That suspicion
00:42:36
has not been confirmed one way or another. The Sluice also find out that Stéphane does
00:42:41
not and has never had John Gerard Schaefer's remains in his possession. Weird brag.
00:42:49
Yeah. Not true and weird. Like good? I'm glad that was a lie. For sure. I know. Because what a disturbing fact that would be if it wasn't.
00:42:58
Yeah. So these are just a few of the things the 4th Eye Corporation members end up digging up.
00:43:05
There are way too many to mention today. As one 4th Eye member will later tell The New Yorker, quote,
00:43:11
as soon as we started looking, we found more and more inconsistencies. In any case, in 2020, the 4th Eye Corporation takes their findings to the public.
00:43:20
They post YouTube videos that debunk Stéphane's background and expertise bit by bit.
00:43:27
They also reach out to different French media outlets hoping to spread the word.
00:43:31
As The New Yorker puts it, quote, Stéphane's story wasn't so much a house of cards as a total teardown.
00:43:38
Yikes. So obviously this is a major PR crisis for him. He's quickly able to get the 4th Eye Corporation's video taken down by filing some sort of a copyright claim.
00:43:48
But by now, the word is spreading and French reporters are starting to pick up on the story.
00:43:54
About a month after the 4th Eye Corporation drops their bombshell report and not long before the coronavirus shuts down the entire world,
00:44:02
Stéphane announces he's shutting down his Facebook page. I'm out. Yeah. Forget it.
00:44:08
Yeah. Everyone's rude. He claims this is to, quote, devote himself to the most important project of my life, end quote.
00:44:16
He does not specify what that project is. And then in his sign-off, he suggests that there's a conspiracy against him, but he never directly comments on any of the allegations brought by the 4th Eye Corporation.
00:44:29
Before long, journalists are reaching out to give Stéphane the chance to explain his side, but he keeps digging himself into a deeper hole.
00:44:37
On one hand, Stéphane acknowledges his flair for exaggeration and says, quote, I'm sorry that I lied and exaggerated things, but I never raped or killed anybody.
00:44:46
End quote. Jesus, that's your fucking bar? That's the bar you're setting? Yeah, that is not relevant in this conversation, sir.
00:44:56
Yeah, that's a big yikes. At the same time, he starts changing the details around the Ella Eileen story yet again.
00:45:03
He now claims she was a bartender in Florida named Susan Bickrest, who is indeed the victim of serial killer Gerald Stano.
00:45:11
But as Lauren Collins of The New Yorker will soon report, quote, the dates of Bickrest's murder and her killer's arrest didn't align with the Eileen story.
00:45:22
And even a cursory glance at photographs of the two women reveal that except for both having blonde hair, they didn't look much alike.
00:45:29
End quote. This is his most egregious and disturbing lie. And the fact that he tried to cover it with a real woman's murder will be his final sociopathic Hail Mary move.
00:45:41
Now it's 2025. Stéphane Bourgois has lost his credibility and lives a mostly quiet life in Western France.
00:45:49
He has made some media appearances in the last few years. He still seems to be trying to explain himself.
00:45:55
But as filmmaker Ben Selkow, who recently made a miniseries on this scandal, puts it,
00:46:02
Stéphane's story is a cautionary tale about living a lie in the Internet age And of course, trying to deceive hard-boiled murderinos. That's not what he actually said.
00:46:13
Oh, that would have been great. But hard-boiled true crime fans, internet sleuths, the like.
00:46:20
Selkow says this, quote, It's not hard to build something fake, but it's much more difficult to have it persist.
00:46:28
Where Stéphane is unique is the endurance of it. 40 plus years. It'd be harder in the modern era, with the amount of research available at our fingertips,
00:46:38
the amount of skepticism within the true crime community, to have such an enduring con.
00:46:44
You can rise, but that Icarus fall comes sooner. But certainly people are going to try.
00:46:49
We are in the era of scams, and that's not going anywhere. And that's the insane story of disgraced serial killer expert Stéphane Bourgois.
00:46:59
Fucking never, like, heard a peep about it. crazy right yeah so wild it's like the motivation is just so confounding you know yeah the kind of
00:47:12
like it'll be okay if I just say this one thing or I need to involve myself more or it or it's
00:47:17
not legitimate somehow or like but like why would you want to put yourself in those shoes yes it's
00:47:25
Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. Great job. Thank you. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
00:47:36
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
00:47:45
The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:47:52
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
00:48:00
or wherever you get your podcasts. 10-10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall?
00:48:07
Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events
00:48:13
that really ever happened in New York City politics. I screamed, get down, get down.
00:48:19
Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten. And a mystery. That may or may not have been political.
00:48:26
That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
00:48:33
or wherever you get your podcasts Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers and guess what, we have some big news
00:48:39
What's the news, Nick? Huge news We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas How do we actually come up with the name Hey Jonas, guys?
00:48:47
I honestly don't remember We were talking about a fit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey Jonas
00:48:52
and then I wrote down on my little notepad Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title
00:48:57
for the podcast but thanks for remembering that guys listen to hey jonas on the iheart radio app apple podcasts
00:49:03
or wherever you get your podcasts just listen we don't care where you hear it okay so this story is totally different great as it should be yeah this story is one from the kind
00:49:16
of dark underbelly of british history oh this is one that i think you're gonna like because it could
00:49:21
totally be like a series that you'd watch okay a british what are they called procedural yes
00:49:27
Yeah, it's got British stuff going on. How can I say that anymore? So this infamous heist captured the nation's attention and kept everyone guessing for 50 years.
00:49:39
This is the story of the biggest rail heist of all time, the Great Train Robbery.
00:49:46
So the main sources I used for this story are reporting from Smithsonian Magazine, the British National Archives, my favorite archive,
00:49:54
and the British Transport Police Archives and The Guardian. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.
00:50:00
I guess my favorite archives are the British Transport Police Archives. They've got to be up there.
00:50:04
They're so, they're just, they're dated, they're timed. Yeah, like if you're going to be an archive junkie like you say you are, right?
00:50:12
You've got to, you've got to put them on the top three for sure. I mean, it's, what do you want? Transport? It's there.
00:50:18
British? It's there. Police stuff? Right there. Right there. And so this is one of these stories.
00:50:23
from those archives. Perfect. Here we are. It's 3 a.m. on August 8th, 1963, and we're on a British
00:50:31
mail train heading from Glasgow, Scotland, which we love, to London. The train is nearing the end
00:50:38
of its 450-mile journey, which usually takes about five hours, and it's approaching a red signal,
00:50:44
or like a stop sign, stop signal, near the village of Cheddington, just darling, which is about 30
00:50:50
miles north of London. So this train is called the traveling post office. It's not just carrying
00:50:56
mail from one place to another. Most of the train's 12 cars are actually full of postal workers
00:51:02
who are actively sorting letters and packages while in transit. So think like Santa's workshop,
00:51:07
but postman and fucking mail. Yes. This is the efficiency of this idea. Yeah. Is amazing. Don't
00:51:15
do it in the warehouse and then put it on the train. Do it on the fucking train on the train.
00:51:18
It's not the warehouse. It's mail. It just keeps coming. It's always going to be there.
00:51:22
Were they always on the train or did one special trip? No, this was a normal thing.
00:51:26
This is like how this train, the mail train worked for sure. So there could be a person that starts working at the post office that's like, I'm obsessed with trains.
00:51:34
And it's like, guess what? You get best of both worlds. Right? Okay. Except for this night.
00:51:37
Okay. Oh, right. It's not a good night for that. So they're actively sorting letters and packages while in transit.
00:51:44
And at the very front of the train, there's one additional car. So there's 12 cars and there's one additional car holding high value cargo.
00:51:53
Most of this cargo is fucking stone cold cash. Great. On an ordinary day, it would be carrying around like 300,000 pounds, which would be worth about, let me tell you.
00:52:05
I'll tell you this one and then you can guess the other ones based on this. Okay.
00:52:08
So 300,000 pounds normally, which in today's money and dollars would be 8 million.
00:52:15
Oh, shit. So a lot of fucking money. A ton of money. But this is the first journey following a bank holiday, one of those British fucking bank holidays, which just means it was closed the day before.
00:52:26
So a lot more cash has built up. This particular train is carrying about two and a half million pounds, which would be worth fucking 30 million?
00:52:37
71 million. In today's U.S. dollars. Okay. Probably not next month's U.S. dollars or next year's U.S. dollars.
00:52:44
Look, we can't look to the future anymore. Only the past and only in England. So we do.
00:52:51
It's called escaping. And this cache belongs to several large banks, blah, blah, blah.
00:52:55
So the red signal at Chettington is unexpected because it's supposed to, there is a like,
00:53:00
you know, a signal red and green, like go or don't go, obviously. And it's usually supposed to be green, but the train sees that it's red.
00:53:09
And so it slows and comes to a stop. And the train's co-engineer, a man named David Whitby, hops out to see what's going on.
00:53:16
Why is it red? When he gets to the signal, he sees that just a regular old glove is actually covering the green light.
00:53:24
And the red light is hooked to an external battery, making it light up when it otherwise shouldn't.
00:53:30
Right? Still doesn't totally understand what he's seeing. And so he heads over to a call box to call the rail line to ask what's going on.
00:53:36
And that's when he sees the lines to this phone box have been cut. And then someone grabs him from behind.
00:53:42
And the heist begins. The heist is on. Yes. So the person who grabs him says quote if you shout I will kill you And then several other men materialize all wearing knit masks They walk David back to the front of the train and reboard with him And the train engineer a man named Jack Mills actually tries to put up a fight which like it not your money bro
00:54:05
Don't put up a fight. Yeah. But we know that now. What year was it again? Not that it's his fault.
00:54:10
1963. 63. 63. OK. So he tries to put up a fight. And then one of the thieves, and this was totally unplanned, and they did not have guns at all.
00:54:19
Like, they were not there to shoot the place up or kill anyone. one of the thieves then brutally beats him, Jack Mills.
00:54:27
The weapon he uses is sometimes described as a wood cudgel, sometimes as a rubber cosh, and sometimes as an iron crowbar,
00:54:36
which is kind of like a club-like weapon. But regardless, Jack suffers a head injury.
00:54:41
And once he's subdued, the group of thieves bind the two engineers together, like kind of warning them, like, stop fighting.
00:54:48
Like, some of these people are crazy. And it turns out there's 15 hijackers in total.
00:54:52
Oh, shit. Yeah. OK. So like one of them's got to be a little mad. A little maybe seen some shit. Been around the bend. Yeah.
00:55:01
So the thieves then detach the first two cars, which is the high yield car and the engine from the back 10 cars where there are people sorting mail.
00:55:11
They don't even know what's happening. And the plan is to get these two cars kind of down the line.
00:55:16
But up front, the thieves are having trouble operating the train and getting these two cars to fucking move as they're supposed to.
00:55:23
One of the robbers had apparently practiced on an engine, a train engine, when it was a different engine.
00:55:31
So it's like a bottle rocket. It's like, I've never tried to pick this lock before.
00:55:36
And it's like, well, yeah, it's a fucking lock. Right. You said you could pick locks.
00:55:40
Yeah, you have to be generally good at like hot wiring things. Yeah. And more than one thing.
00:55:45
Not just your one kind. Right. So the thieves actually have to revive poor Jack Mills, who had just been fucking beaten unconscious and tied up.
00:55:55
And they're like, hey, bro, sorry about that. Can you show us how to drive this train?
00:56:01
That's poor dude. Was Jack Mills like go to hell? No. I mean, I think he fucking figured out not to fight with them.
00:56:09
And then in the meantime, other members of the group start working on entering the secure high value car.
00:56:15
So the high value package car is secured by iron doors, which once shut and locked can only be open from the inside.
00:56:21
And the cargo in the cars is being guarded by four men, but they're unarmed. The iron door is the only security precaution.
00:56:29
But the thieves are able to use these fucking tools, we don't know exactly, to breach the doors and open the cars.
00:56:35
So sorry, they just had four guys in there like warning people against like, you don't want to be in here.
00:56:40
Yeah, but they didn't do guns back then. You know, nobody did. And I don't think they do there.
00:56:44
Some judo expert? Like, can't they get anybody that's going to? Yeah. If they don't use weapons.
00:56:50
Right. I'm just saying, why have guys in there? Then just, like, let them go work on some other part of the train.
00:56:54
Yeah, give them some pepper spray or something at least. Something. Right? Yeah, so exactly.
00:56:58
You're like, why aren't these secured better? And actually, by 1963, when this happens, some of these high-value mail cars had been equipped with alarms.
00:57:06
But the ones on this particular train are older and don't have that technology. And that is one of the many clues that will ultimately point to the thieves having had some kind of inside help from someone in the postal service.
00:57:20
Right. So after breaching the door, three of the thieves come into the car, two holding clubs, one's holding an axe, which is like, I wouldn't jujitsu a guy with an axe.
00:57:30
Yeah, no. It's too what? Axe as a weapon hand to hand is too wild. Yeah, it's not a fair fight.
00:57:37
They're followed by more men, all of them wearing masks, and they immediately subdued the four guards and pushed them to the back of the car.
00:57:43
And while this is happening, other thieves are still at the engine. They get the train moving and they move it about a mile further down the line where their getaway vehicles are parked.
00:57:53
So all of this happens really quickly, like within 10 minutes. And once they stop the train again, the thieves then form a human chain, quickly unloading 120 sacks of cash from the car to the waiting Land Rovers, their getaway cars.
00:58:07
Then the masked thieves tell the workers in the car to sit and wait for 30 minutes before calling the police.
00:58:14
Then they drive off into the night. At the time, those like 15-ish thieves had no idea how much cash was in the bag.
00:58:21
It's only when the dust settles and the investigation begins that it becomes clear that the total that they had stolen had been about 2.5 million pounds, which would be worth about 71 million in today's money.
00:58:34
Oh, my God. So the fact that the thieves told the train personnel to wait 30 minutes actually winds up being another clue that the investigators can use.
00:58:43
The case is assigned mainly to Scotland Yard's Flying Squad. They're named because they fly between London's boroughs to solve major crimes.
00:58:52
And since we're talking about fucking episodes we've covered shit on before. Sure.
00:58:57
So I talked about the Flying Squad in episode 446, I'm Michael Caine, when I covered the Hatton Garden Jewel Heist that happened decades later.
00:59:07
Just a legendary episode on this podcast. Yeah. So lots of heists, lots of Michael Caine.
00:59:12
The most Michael Caine you could get in a podcast. What more do you need? So as soon as the Flying Squad are called to the scene, they are like, well, if they told him to wait 30 minutes, only 30 minutes, that means their fucking hideout is probably close by.
00:59:23
So they knew they'd be off the roads in about 30 minutes. So the press learns about this story very early on.
00:59:30
The brazenness of this heist causes a huge sensation. And remember that this is post-war recession era England.
00:59:37
So people are actually like cheering them on and kind of excited. It also reminds them of an old school like gangster caper from the 1920s.
00:59:47
You know, so I think people are like, good for them. Yeah. Go take that money. Get that money.
00:59:52
Redistribute that money, please. Steal the money from the banks. They stole from us So we don care Right So on August 13th five days after the heist the investigators get a break when a farmer calls to report suspicious activity at the farm next door about 30 minutes from the train in Buckinghamshire England
01:00:09
He's seen people coming and going, which is weird because the farm is supposed to be put up for sale.
01:00:14
So you got to never underestimate a nosy neighbor. Like, they'll talk. Especially like country stuff where you kind of need to keep an eye out because there's like a quarter of a mile between you and anywhere.
01:00:27
It's better to hide in an apartment block, it seems like. That's right. Where like people mind their own fucking business.
01:00:32
That's right. And people come in and out every day and you'll never see them again.
01:00:35
They see masks all the time. That's right. Or if you're wearing a ski mask, why don't you just go to a ski resort and hide there?
01:00:43
Man, the pandemic was great for people doing heists probably, right? It was great for people who had just gotten Botox and needed to cover their bruises.
01:00:50
I wouldn't know from experience. No, you're not pulling that exact example for any specific reason.
01:00:57
So when police arrive at the farmhouse, it's deserted. But there are signs that people have been there very recently and left it in a hurry.
01:01:04
Outside the house, police find many empty mailbags next to a three-foot hole and shovel.
01:01:09
And they also find the getaway Land Rovers parked on the property. So, like, they were tipped off and fucking ran.
01:01:15
What? sorry just the no the visual like so they went and put all their stuff in a hole and then the
01:01:22
cops are coming so they went and dug it back out of the hole yeah they're just like empty these bags
01:01:26
quick oh shit hurry up inside the house police find more clues it looks like the group was
01:01:31
gonna stay there for a while that's what their plan was and there's an old school photo of like
01:01:36
you know when you see like what people buy at the grocery store in in fucking england in a week like
01:01:41
Like what family spend. And it shows you like they have that. Yeah. Of this. And I love it.
01:01:46
So there's some cans of beans for breakfast. They love beans. What else? They love beans, toast.
01:01:51
So they need some bread. Yes. They need sausages. Yes. Just to blinks and links.
01:01:56
They can drape them all around the kitchen. Right. And here's a part of that. So the fridge and the pantry are totally stocked.
01:02:03
And most of the surfaces had been wiped clean of fingerprints. Smart. They found a fingerprint on one thing you didn't name because I don't think.
01:02:10
A potato? No, not a potato. I think British people would be embarrassed about this. A bottle of ketchup. Oh, British people don't like ketchup or do they only not like ketchup on fries?
01:02:22
Oh, they don't. They don't normally eat ketchup or they didn't. Right. Traditionally.
01:02:26
Ketchup's embarrassing that you got caught via a condiment that like. Is it? I don't know. I just it stuck out to me.
01:02:32
It should have been malt vinegar. Yes. It was like something like, you know, brown gravy or something like.
01:02:37
That's more them. Yeah, it's like, of course ketchup fucking told on you. Yes. Like, loudmouth American ketchup.
01:02:43
Right. We've never liked you. And here you are. What about over here? Fucking snitch.
01:02:48
But imagine how glorious it would have been if there was just like one thumbprint on a potato and they found it.
01:02:54
Can you thumbprint a potato? Or can you fingerprint a potato? It would implicate all the other people that either touched, shopped for, or farmed that potato.
01:03:02
And the potato because it's got kind of a thumbprinty. Okay. And a personality. Stop it.
01:03:07
The other fingerprint they found is from a game of Monopoly. Yes. And they think they were playing the Monopoly with real money, the real money they had stolen.
01:03:15
Just like classic. That's classic themes. I'm so sorry to say that's a great celebration of your heist.
01:03:21
Yeah. Now we play Monopoly with real money. Totally. Yeah, totally. So these fingerprints lead police immediately to a suspect named Roger Corddry.
01:03:30
He had just rented an apartment in Bournemouth, a town on the southern coast of England.
01:03:35
And when he's arrested, police realize that he's hiding a car key in his rectum.
01:03:42
Oh, no. Oh, hey. The key unlocks a car that holds his share of the cash. It's just like nobody gets away.
01:03:49
Like, this is an immediate. I hate to tell you this. Like, some people have some luck here and there, and I'm going to tell you all about them.
01:03:55
But, like, there's just an immediate. It's a key shit show. Yeah, exactly. And actually, this relatively small amount of money is most of what winds up being recovered from the heist.
01:04:05
So actually, not a lot of money is ever recovered. Oh, well, then it is successful in some ways.
01:04:10
They all split it up. Who knows what? This guy, Roger, doesn't give anyone away.
01:04:14
He does not snitch. I mean, if you're going to put a fucking key in your rectum, you're not a snitcher.
01:04:18
You are ready to get the job done for the job at hand. Yeah. Yeah. However, from the fingerprints and knowing who works with who, police quickly arrest 11 other people.
01:04:28
When they piece everything together, they learn that the mastermind of the whole robbery is a career criminal named Bruce Reynolds.
01:04:35
And we're to assume that they're all career criminals. So fine. And Bruce is fucking in the wind.
01:04:41
No one can find him. He seemingly left the country. However, most, although not all, of the thieves are charged, convicted and sentenced mostly for about 30 years.
01:04:51
While police are still working to track him and two others down. Among those who are caught in this initial sweep is a man named Charlie Wilson.
01:05:00
So after being sentenced in April of 1964, 30 years, he escapes prison. And this was a big sentence back then for them, especially because they didn't use guns.
01:05:10
So, like, I think they were an example. Like, you can't. For sure. Well, because it's post office.
01:05:16
So you can't. That's a federal. I'm assuming here it is. So over there probably.
01:05:20
It's like a tough on crime kind of a thing. Right. And don't think that you're going to get your friends together and start heisting.
01:05:26
Right. Because we'll really make your life hell. But he escapes from prison when a gang of three men break into the prison and get him out.
01:05:33
There's a couple of prison breaks going on. Outside in is a pretty badass prison.
01:05:38
To break in has to be easier than breaking out, right? I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess.
01:05:43
Well, Charlie escapes to Canada with his family, is recaptured four years later because his poor wife finally calls her parents at home because she probably misses them.
01:05:55
But guess whose phone is tapped Yeah those parents That sucks You can never call your parents again Yeah that does suck And it also such good policing on Scotland Yard part
01:06:06
Thank you, Scotland Yard's part. Like Liverpool's what's it called? Because, yeah.
01:06:12
Of course. So four years later, there's still a tap? Yeah, I wonder when, yeah. It feels like here they're always like, sorry, we did it for 48 hours.
01:06:20
Totally. Totally. So they're able to track Charlie Wilson down. He's put back in prison and eventually he's released.
01:06:28
He moves to Costa del Sol in Spain, which is popular with British criminals because of a lapsed extradition treaty.
01:06:35
And eventually he's killed there by a hitman in 1990. Oh, my God. So let's get a movie about his life, please.
01:06:40
I feel like the movie is called Sexy Beast. Right. Even though it might not specifically be.
01:06:45
That's such a good movie. Well, Charlie isn't the only member of the gang to escape from prison.
01:06:49
And a year later, in July of 1965, a man named Ronnie Biggs scales a prison wall and manages to escape basically in the back of a garbage removal van.
01:06:59
And this guy, the more I read about him, the more fascinating he is. Ronnie Biggs?
01:07:04
Yeah. Ronnie Biggs didn't give a fuck. Yeah. There's a photo of him in his wheelchair at the funeral for one of these guys as an old man giving the, like, two finger fuck you.
01:07:12
he's an old man he looks like he's from the exorcist and he's giving a fucking middle finger
01:07:19
a british middle finger fight like hell ronnie biggs he's good fight like hell so he once he
01:07:25
escapes uses some of his money that he had made from the the heist to get plastic surgery to
01:07:30
change his face amazing then he i know he travels all over and then he ends up in brazil where he
01:07:36
gets married and to like this young stripper and eventually has a son. And in Brazil, this makes
01:07:44
him exempt from extradition. Wow. But I think they were actually in love because she fought for him
01:07:49
the rest of his life. I believe it. They sound like a just like a firecracker couple.
01:07:54
OK. In 1978, he does the vocals for a sex pistol song called No One is Innocent. However,
01:08:05
However, I have to say that Johnny and Sid had left Sex Pistols by then. So like how how was sex, you know, and it also sounds like your British dad trying to sing a Sex Pistols song at karaoke.
01:08:15
It's not, you know, it's fine. Yeah. But it's not. Yeah. What producer thought that concept was going to really get it, get him a hit?
01:08:22
But I think the point was like he was a celebrity like everywhere. People knew. People loved him.
01:08:28
Yeah. So in 1981, a British group of ex-soldiers tried to bring him back to the UK.
01:08:33
But because of this legal loophole, he's able to return to Brazil. He lives fairly openly like a celebrity until 2001. And then he returns to the UK. He's an old man. He's resentenced. He serves time until he's clearly about to die. And he's released and dies in 2013 at the age of 84 without ever showing remorse.
01:08:55
Yes. Hence the British fuck you. He just didn't give a fuck. And sorry, do we think that his cut of the money is somewhere?
01:09:04
He might have spent it all. And that's why he came back to the UK. I don't know.
01:09:07
He was like, yeah, what? Ran out and I had my fun. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
01:09:12
So I had mentioned this guy, Bruce Reynolds, who had just taken off and was in the wind.
01:09:17
He spends the first six months after the heist moving quietly around in England, waiting to get a fake passport.
01:09:24
Then he flees to Mexico, where his wife and son join him. And they live in Mexico and then Canada until 1968.
01:09:31
And then their money runs out. And so they return to the UK. Bruce is arrested in 1968 and is sentenced to 25 years in prison.
01:09:39
Bruce is, this is just a rando, like, note, like you had in yours. Bruce's son, Nick, is a member of the band Alabama Three,
01:09:47
who wrote the song Woke Up This Morning, which is the theme song for The Sopranos.
01:09:51
Oh, what? Just randomly. That's a great piece of trivia. Oh, my God. That's trivia night at your local pub that we just fucking gave you.
01:10:00
Yes, that's right. So you owe us a pint. And also, that's an intense trivia night.
01:10:04
That's the deepest cut. Deep cut. But someone knows that. Okay, first of all, do you know Ronnie Biggs?
01:10:09
Right. Okay. Someone on your team. That's why you have to have a diverse team. That's right.
01:10:14
People you wouldn't hang out with in normal life. Yep. Because they know weird shit and they won't stop talking about it.
01:10:18
That's right. About music. That guy will get you a free pitcher. But also just like valor. True pub valor.
01:10:27
Yeah. And you appreciate it. You're cool. Yeah. So years later, Bruce Reynolds will say that he was motivated, of course, by the money, but also he wanted to do something big and stunning.
01:10:37
And he'd been inspired by the 1950 robbery of a Brinks truck in Boston. And he said, quote, we wanted to do something as spectacular as that.
01:10:47
We wanted to draw our line in the sand. And it's the same madness, I suppose, that drives people to bivouac on the north face of the Eiger, end quote, which basically means set up camp on a fucking mountain that you just like to like it's adrenaline.
01:10:59
It's an adrenaline rush. Yes. But instead, you're getting money instead of frostbite.
01:11:03
Yeah. I know what I would fucking pick. I know for sure. Yeah. Wait, which one? Frostbite?
01:11:09
No. Absolutely not. Exactly. I don't need to lose a toe. Have you seen these feet?
01:11:14
They're my fucking moneymaker. All that. that's your safety net right there but also it's that idea i think because there is a romance to it
01:11:24
and there is that kind of like you know we they didn't have guns they weren't there to hurt they
01:11:29
weren't supposed no one was supposed to get hurt it was we've all seen the movie a thousand times
01:11:33
or just like we're gonna do one last one we're gonna get that money we're gonna we're gonna get
01:11:38
our cut because we know that in life it's not like we're gonna go back to school and get a new job
01:11:43
And no more small time, you know, street criminal. Let's fucking do something big and get it.
01:11:48
So eventually Bruce Reynolds and a couple of the other crew members who had initially evaded capture are caught and sentenced.
01:11:57
So in the decades following the Great Train Robbery... There is one enduring mystery, which is who was the person on the inside who helped the gang know which train to strike because of that thing, the bank holiday having twice as much money as it was supposed to the next day, where to strike it and how.
01:12:16
And, you know, also the train that didn't have alarms on it. Like they had there was an insider for sure.
01:12:23
And this person only ever communicated with three members of the gang, which is smart.
01:12:27
all of them who claimed not to know his name and everyone referred to him either as the
01:12:33
ulsterman or the irishman ulster basically means northern ireland yeah you knew that uh-huh you're
01:12:39
so irish i knew that but then when i went to call dairy uh dairy i looked at the map said londonderry
01:12:45
and everyone you lost your irish passport i lost every anything that i've ever had and i think about
01:12:51
it constantly and when i see clips of the show dairy girls it makes me go because it's happening
01:12:56
again. It's all happening. Yeah. No, I feel it. I feel you. But not this time. Nope. It's all
01:13:01
different now. 2025, baby. However, it's also a term some Irish people take issue with. So
01:13:06
like Ulsterman. Ulsterman. So, yeah. Yeah. Fair. Fair warning. I'm Jewish. Leave me alone. Okay.
01:13:13
It's not until 2014 that the identity of this insider is ever revealed. So it's at this point
01:13:19
that another of the gang member, a man named Gordon Goody, who had served his sentence,
01:13:24
He was like off the grid. He would not talk to people. He's living a quiet life in Spain, the countryside with his wife and five dogs. He's like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. But he comes forward eventually in a documentary called A Tale of Two Thieves.
01:13:39
So this guy, Gordon Goody, says that the insider who helped them, basically, he gives the documentary filmmakers as much information as he has, and they're able to track down this person. The only information he has is because when he was one of the three thieves going to meet this insider to get information from him, and they had met in Kensington Garden in London, it was a warm day, and this insider went to go get everyone ice creams, which is like so darling, right?
01:14:07
But he dropped his glasses case and Gordon Goody said when he picked them up, he saw the name of the insider in the glasses and always remembered it.
01:14:18
And so the documentary makers hired two private investigators to search through like who had worked at the post office back then you know who had that name And the name was Patrick McKenna and who looked like what Gordon Goody remembered
01:14:33
And so they were able to find this guy named Patrick McKenna, who had been 43 at the time, who was older than most of the crew.
01:14:39
He didn't he wasn't on the train. He wasn't one of the robbers. He just gave them information for money.
01:14:44
And by the time Gordon Goody comes forward, he's like, Patrick McKenna had already died, so he doesn't feel terrible about it.
01:14:51
So when the documentary filmmakers reveal this to Patrick McKenna's family, they are flabbergasted and also like, well, he didn't have money.
01:14:59
He wasn't a rich man. He was a quiet, church-going man. He had a simple life. He didn't even have a car.
01:15:06
And he worked at the post office until his retirement. And so they're like, well, maybe he felt guilty and donated the money to the Catholic Church.
01:15:13
maybe the money got stolen from him like that is a mystery of like what was Patrick McKenna's
01:15:19
motivation and what happened to the money wow which like to be his grandchild I know tell me
01:15:24
everything because that's what I think of all these heists where it's like the people that get
01:15:28
away or you never hear about it again yeah it just means that there's like some apartment somewhere
01:15:34
that doesn't know it has on the like on the east end of London or they know fully and it's just like
01:15:39
we don't spend this yeah in any weird showy way it's just like you just pull down a gold bar
01:15:46
you bring it in or you get it changed out right and you very evenly and slowly don't be flashy
01:15:52
flashy is so obvious especially when you like live a you know you're a post office person and then
01:15:58
suddenly you're driving a mustang like yeah come on guy just break it down you can get that in 20
01:16:02
years. You can't get it in five. No. Now, the other mystery is who of the 15-person gang beat
01:16:10
the train engineer, Jack Mills. Later, most of the thieves will say that they didn't agree with
01:16:16
the decision to beat him so brutally. It was not in the plan at all, and they very much regret it.
01:16:22
Jack Mills survives his injuries and mostly physically recovers, but he's clearly traumatized,
01:16:28
And then he sadly dies of leukemia in 1970. It's just like tragedy after tragedy.
01:16:34
Yeah. And Gordon Goody doesn't snitch on the guy, but basically by process of elimination, you're able to tell which of the thieves beat him.
01:16:44
But it nobody that I talked about today He says that Jack Mills getting hurt was his biggest regret from the heist and that those he been in touch with from the heist in the decades since feel the same
01:16:54
He says, quote, the fact the driver was hurt. That's the thing I regret. Nobody was going to get hurt.
01:16:59
We were gentleman robbers. When Jack Mills fell and hit his head, we all looked out for him, which is like, did he hit his head or did he get hit in the head?
01:17:07
Yeah, right. Did he get his head beaten in? Right. Charlie bandaged it up for him and Tony gave him a cigarette and sat with him.
01:17:13
We knew it changed everything. I was choked, choked, end quote. Oh. But other than that, Goody has no regrets.
01:17:22
And that is the story of the biggest rail heist of all time, the Great Train Robbery.
01:17:28
They got away with it. Oh, I like that story a lot. Who would you cast in it? We already know.
01:17:32
I mean. Pie in the sky. Because it feels like they were, if the one guy was 43 and he was the oldest.
01:17:39
Yeah. Then we get to go into a full, is Paul Mescal one of the leading people? We got Irish and English people.
01:17:47
So like we can kind of pick from. Kiowen? Kiowen? Baby. What's his name? Keegan?
01:17:53
Oh, you know who'd be good? Kiowen, I think. Kiowen, yeah. Something like that. Who'd be good is Andrew.
01:17:58
Garfield? No. You know, the hot priest. Andrew Scott. Yes. Just put him anywhere.
01:18:02
I don't care where. Let him be on the flying squad. Like that would be hot. Let him be the 43 year old that's like the voice of reason.
01:18:09
Totally. All the boys. You've got the youngsters. Except he dropped his sunglasses case.
01:18:14
You know? Right. Can you imagine? I'm going to go get some ice creams. He's the type to get ice creams, and he's the type that actually writes his name in the sunglass case.
01:18:23
Like that little patch of white where it's like, if found, please return to. Shit.
01:18:29
And he's like, I might be a major criminal, but I'm also kind of a nerd, so go ahead and return these glasses to me.
01:18:35
It shows what a mastermind he is. That's right. That's right. Wow. Meanwhile, I won't put my name on the suitcase tag that you absolutely need if you want to get that suitcase returned when the airline has lost your suitcase.
01:18:47
Or you can put an air tag in your suitcase and keep track of that shit yourself.
01:18:51
Oh, that's true. Right? I don't know. Listen, we're giving you all kinds of tips.
01:18:54
We're telling you how not to get scammed. We're trying to teach you how to get away with a great train robbery.
01:18:59
And we wish you would. And we wish you a Merry Christmas. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
01:19:07
Goodbye. Elvis do you want a cookie This has been an Exactly Right production Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
01:19:24
Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
01:19:29
This episode was mixed by Liana Squalache. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Allie Elkin.
01:19:35
Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder.
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Goodbye. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.
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