00:00:00
This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.
00:00:33
Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. If audiobooks are your thing, or if you've been meaning to listen to more of them,
00:00:40
you should check out a podcast called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn.
00:00:46
Each episode spotlights standout audiobooks on Audible across all kinds of genres.
00:00:51
Sci-fi, comedy, romance, thrillers, and more. With Cal talking to guests who help break down what makes each story worth listening to.
00:00:57
It's a fun, easy way to discover your next great audiobook. Check out Earsay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:06
Goodbye. Pandora Jewelry brings the sparkle to summer, now with even better prices.
00:01:11
Shop now for up to 50% off select jewelry featuring personalized pieces to must-have summer favorites.
00:01:16
Timeless jewelry made to move with you through every moment. Shop in-store or online now through July 5th.
00:01:22
Terms and conditions apply. See pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. Goodbye. My favorite world
00:01:57
Fast forward, we named Skippers Unite. Skippers Unite. In these trying times, at least we can come together on one issue, and that's Skippers
00:02:07
needing to shut up. This episode came out on December 8th, 2016. And in honor of our Skippers, let's get right into it.
00:02:14
Here's the intro of episode 46. Go. Hi, hi, how are you? Hi. Go. Podcasting. Podcasting.
00:02:25
Go. The dual-ed podcasting. What if this was a podcast about podcasting? That could be a thing.
00:02:31
That would be the end of us. What if this was a podcast about podcast to talk about podcasting?
00:02:36
What if this is a podcast about how to start a podcast? And then we started listening to it and learn.
00:02:41
And we're soon able to start a podcast correctly. That would be, I think that would be detrimental to our...
00:02:48
To our brand? To our brand. I'm sorry. Sorry. Detrimental to our personalities. Detrimental.
00:02:57
to our riff styles. Yeah. Well, this is all scripted, this part. Isn't it weird how much we play it natural
00:03:07
when actually we're reading every word we're saying right now off of large teleprompters?
00:03:12
Georgia, laugh out loud. Oh, shit. Karen, laugh even louder and clap your hands.
00:03:19
Welcome. Hey. Did you say bye? Sigh. Welcome to My Favorite Murder. Welcome to My Favorite Murder, the podcast that asks the question, why do people listen to this and doesn't answer it?
00:03:34
And then talks about other stuff. Yep. Yeah. Our blessed, blessed Stephen Ray Morris brought me a gift today that, you know, people who know how to give a gift.
00:03:47
Yeah. And it really means a lot because like my own mother for years at Christmas, I would open things and be like, you clearly wanted someone else as a child.
00:03:56
I walked in tonight and there was a Diet Coke tall boy waiting for me on Georgia's coffee table.
00:04:03
He puts it in Karen's spot. He doesn't even say, hey, Karen, hand it to her. He did it when I came out and I was like, oh.
00:04:13
It's so sweet and so subtle. And it's in your spot. Thanks, Stephen. All those things, Stephen.
00:04:18
And then on top of it, the things I want the most, which are Diet Coke and quantity.
00:04:24
Stephen's your new mommy. Steve's my mommy. And also, oh, I called him Steve. And also,
00:04:29
also when I was a young alcoholic, really ready to take on the world through slurry speech and secrets.
00:04:39
The best way, man. Secrets no one wanted to hear. I still use money. I would drink Budweiser Tallboys
00:04:46
from the corner store because they were cheap and they would get you like buzzed enough
00:04:52
so that you could still use money and not like lose your, lose money or lose your ID.
00:04:57
It's that like perfect buzz that you should have just written, but instead you added to it.
00:05:01
Always. You know what I mean? Yes. Two glasses of champagne. Here I am fucking rock me like, you know, and then.
00:05:08
Rock me like a hurricane. Yeah. Then I'm like, well, one more then. Yes. And then I'm like, oh.
00:05:13
Yes. Stupid. And then I go two more. Now let's switch to Jameson's. Now let's fight the doorman.
00:05:21
That's why I had to stop drinking. It would always go down this path where I was like, wait, don't do that.
00:05:26
Now it's on to, I thought you were like, now it's on to gin. Nope. Now I'm fighting the doorman.
00:05:30
Now Duke's up. Now it's like, I'll kick you in the shin and then tell you a secret.
00:05:36
Oh, I'm plucky. I'm plucky, Karen. I'm angry about things that don't make sense.
00:05:42
I've had every advantage in life and I'm still mad. I want it all. So thank you, Steven.
00:05:49
Thank you, Steve. Thanks for bringing back memories. Means the world. I'm glad. And thank you all for listening to My Favorite Murder That Karen by the way And that Georgia Georgia still an alcoholic Karen an ex It all the same
00:06:05
No, I'm still an alcoholic. You always are. Yes. But you're not an alcoholic or you would have fucked everything up by now.
00:06:10
I'm a practicing. I went to a new doctor today and I was like, natriopath? I can't say it.
00:06:18
Natriopath? A homeopath? No, natriopath. Natriopath. A natriopath. And I was like, how do I explain to her, like, what's wrong with me?
00:06:27
There's a lot wrong with me. And I was like, oh, I know. And I'm a very highly functioning mess.
00:06:34
Oh, that's it. Yes. Yeah. Did she get it? Yes. She was great. She got me. Awesome.
00:06:41
Yeah. Who can't say that, though? Who wouldn't say that about themselves? People who aren't highly functioning.
00:06:46
Oh, that's true. You know what I mean? That might be me where I'm like, I'm a mess that also can't return phone calls.
00:06:50
Except you also clearly don't believe in yourself because you're incredibly high-functioning.
00:06:56
Oh, that's true. You have a fucking job and a hit fucking podcast. What? No. She became that person.
00:07:06
Lizzie Cooperman, actually. I do think I'm Lizzie Cooperman. Speaking of, hey, we're on the iTunes fucking best of 20s.
00:07:14
I know. I think we have to cut down the ad corner. It gets me scared. Okay, I just wanted to thank everyone for listening.
00:07:20
You're right. Because we wouldn't be on this if nobody listened. That's exactly right.
00:07:24
That's why I wanted to thank you guys. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.
00:07:27
See you later. That was brag corner. That was brag, but really embarrassed about a corner.
00:07:33
I have a lot of shame issues. That's what I have to take to my nature path. Brag shame issues.
00:07:38
Brag shame corner. That's your natural path. I'm going to take it down a natural path to a pond.
00:07:44
I'm going to throw it down in the pond of shame. Oh, it's a beautiful pond. It's such a gorgeous, bottomless pond.
00:07:51
I go boating there, like sailboating there sometimes. I really enjoy myself on the pond of shame.
00:07:56
I bring a, what do you, parasol? Yes. Right? Yeah, like a classy lady from the 20s.
00:08:03
Yeah, a classy, shameful person. That's me. That's me all over. What are the corners do you want to talk about?
00:08:11
I guess. Should we get ready to show corners? So like the skippers don't skip this part?
00:08:16
Is it tour corner? Tour corner. Exciting announcement corner. We're going to have a tour happening.
00:08:22
You guys, somebody believes we're legit because they have actually planned a semi,
00:08:30
not really nationwide tour for us. And perhaps slightly outside nature. I mean, America, national.
00:08:39
We're only going to national parks. That's what Karen's trying to say. We're only doing shows in natural parks.
00:08:45
And we're trying to get disappeared out of a natural park, like those weird stories where people disappear out of natural parks.
00:08:52
And everyone, the only... You have to chop down a tree if you're going to come. That's right.
00:08:56
We're going to basically chop down all the woods. We're going to go find the bad people in the woods.
00:09:00
Oh, yeah. And we're going to live podcast murder them. Have you heard the number of like how many...
00:09:06
Did we already talk about this? How many murderers are... You've brought that up.
00:09:09
What? How many murderers or murders happen in parks, national parks? And the whole thing of children disappearing in national parks.
00:09:18
And it's like, is it an animal or is it a human animal? But if it's an animal, how did they get so far away?
00:09:24
10 miles away. Yeah, you would have seen like a clothing thing. Yeah. No, there's no bones or spore.
00:09:29
Fuck. I know. We got to do a fucking national park show. National park tour where we're dressed up in park ranger outfits.
00:09:36
Oh, I look good in brown. I know. And it's kind of like I'll do a moss green thing that won't look good on me, but I'll wear a strong red lip.
00:09:44
and they'll be like, I don't know. I like it anyway. Tight ponytails just because they're no nonsense.
00:09:48
Yep. And those pads where it looks like we're writing people tickets. But it's like...
00:09:53
Love it. Just we can't get Lyme disease. Hey, do you guys want to know about our tour?
00:09:57
Yeah, actually. Should we talk about the thing we brought up? No. So I guess we're going to tour
00:10:02
from like January to April. Yes. But like the most like... We don't want to travel that much tour.
00:10:08
Like a weekend or tour. We should call it something that we don't... We should call it
00:10:14
We Don't Try Too Hard Tour. Right. Give us like three weeks and we'll get a great name of a tour for you.
00:10:21
We don't care about you. What's the city we're not going to? We don't care about you.
00:10:26
Don't do it. Don't say it. Okay, okay. And everyone's heart- Because then we have to go there
00:10:29
because we're actually going to one of the cities I said. I don't want to go to fucking.
00:10:33
That's right. All right. Ready? Okay. Yes. Do you know what I've decided? What? I don't know.
00:10:37
Ryan, I'm going to sound like a dick. That if we go overseas, I'm fucking flying first.
00:10:41
about. I'm flying myself first class. Oh, that's nice. Because you have all those anxieties about
00:10:44
travel. And my therapist was like, fucking spend a little extra money. That's right. And it's okay.
00:10:49
Like don't buy all the weird shit you buy. Save up. Save up. And get one of the craziest,
00:10:55
most expensive. But that's very true because- I don't know how much it is. Is it really crazy?
00:10:59
It's like, it's going to be a couple thousand dollars. Oh, nevermind. I thought it'd be like
00:11:02
a thousand maybe. It'll be pretty expensive, especially if you're going to like Europe or
00:11:06
Australia, but like for Australia, you have to. I actually, my father who is very frugal and very
00:11:13
like no frills, no frills Kilgarev. He was like, you have to, cause he, my mother and he loved
00:11:21
Australia and they would go, they went there a bunch. And he was like, we, the first time we
00:11:26
went, we flew over coach and they came back executive class, which I think is just like the
00:11:32
cheap man's version of first class. It's what it used to be. It's what normal flying used to be.
00:11:37
It's business class. Before they smashed everybody together. Anyhow, he basically said,
00:11:41
the man who won't spend money on anything was like, you have to buy a first class ticket
00:11:44
if you're going. If you're going to be in a plane for that long, treat yourself.
00:11:48
It's completely worth it. So don't feel bad. I'm doing it. Anyways. Any oozle. What else?
00:11:57
Oh I just saw the pictures on the Facebook of the DC meetup Did you look at it Did you look at the cocktails they made Yes Oh my God Did you Now the cocktail that was the Karen
00:12:08
is exactly my personality. Shut up. I don't know who that person is, but it was literally like
00:12:12
scotch, drambouille, coffee, and like a middle finger. It was made me so happy. It was pretty legit. Wait, let me read the menu because the menu was so good. So
00:12:22
So it was called, it just said, the menu was called drinks. And underneath it in parentheses is I do not drink with older people, which I fucking love.
00:12:29
And then the beer on draft was called stay out of the forest and drink local beer.
00:12:34
Then the beer in the bottle was toxic masculinity. And then they had the boot, the cocktails was called, I'm going to go get some juice.
00:12:44
In case you're new to this, these are all things that have come out of our faces.
00:12:47
Yeah. So there was the Georgia, which I loved. Pepper spray first, the fuck politeness,
00:12:51
the fuck everyone, the sweet honesty, and the Karen, coffee, scotch, vodka, Jesus, gram-booey, chocolate bitters.
00:12:59
I bet that was fucking good. I mean... And you need one. It's truly like, and I would have drank three.
00:13:07
I really identified with the Karen. And then their Jell-O shot of the week was called round shit.
00:13:13
Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thank you, DC. That's hilarious and it's very exciting. Why aren't we going to DC?
00:13:20
What's that? Why aren't we going to DC? Oh, I won't for political reasons. I'm just kidding.
00:13:26
For a minute, I was like, oh, no, you're Karen. Yeah, I don't have political reasons.
00:13:31
No, I'm not sure. I guess he's just like booking the places he's booking. Yeah, this might be our first kind of tour.
00:13:37
Yeah, I mean, we're just doing our best. Unless this motherfucking implodes. Can you imagine?
00:13:43
Halfway through, we're scratching each other's eyes out. I think one of those dates is like right around when we started.
00:13:48
It's like our anniversary. that'd be very cool that'd be very cool what if our anniversary shows
00:13:53
in Indianapolis and we're just like hands across America we love you we build a bridge of love
00:13:59
again I apologize for saying I would never go there it's too late because I'm going
00:14:03
it's too late yeah no we're we're gonna show up there what if what if we're there when that
00:14:09
there's like a true crime convention that's there I think he did that on purpose
00:14:13
no I think we sent him that and we're like can we go to this are you serious yes
00:14:17
there's a true crime convention in Indianapolis and our fucking amazing tour dude, Joe.
00:14:23
I feel like crying a little bit right now. Why? Just, I like it all so much. It's a lot.
00:14:27
I like it so much. It's really a lot. It's good times. It's so much. Yeah. It's really good.
00:14:36
This is crazy. Now, can I change the topic really quick? I can tell you want to and I'll let you.
00:14:41
Thank you. I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfortable in celebration. This is called, you get one free change the topic every episode.
00:14:50
The yogurt shop murders were 25 years ago yesterday. I have a book right over there.
00:14:58
Are you serious? Yeah. Are you reading the book about it? I haven't started because of reasons.
00:15:04
Because you can't read? You don't know how to read? The book is called, it's called Who Killed These Girls by?
00:15:13
Beverly Lowry. And I think it's new. And it's funny because, oh, you know what was happening? I was going to do that. And I have a draft of it. And as I was writing the draft, Emily Gordon texts me and says, have you read Who Killed These Girls? The fucking moment I was typing this shit, I lost my mind. And then I was like, well, I don't want to steal this chick's thunder. So I'm not going to, so I'm going to order it and read it first.
00:15:35
when they, I saw the picture on the Facebook page this morning and the picture of these girls
00:15:41
from this time. Oh, honeys. It made me well up. It's just like, it's four girls who are just teenage girls.
00:15:49
And one was a friend who just wanted to hang out. You know, when you go like, you're closing, well, I don't want to be alone.
00:15:54
I'm going to go hang out with you while you close and I'll fucking fill napkin things or whatever.
00:15:56
And then when one girl had to bring her little sister, so her little sister was hanging out there.
00:16:00
If you guys don't know about the yogurt shop murders, don't look it up because I'm going to cover it one day.
00:16:04
but it's fucking and like it's heavy and it's cold case it's unsolved but then there's a lot of
00:16:10
people someone was in prison for it arrested and jailed and confessed to it I won't say anymore
00:16:17
okay yeah I want to borrow this when you're done okay I just I just wanted to kind of cite it
00:16:25
because it's such a long time and it is it's a cold case I mean like whoever went to jail for it
00:16:31
is not the person and and there's such it's just all of us it's all of us the reason I haven't started reading it yet is because I went
00:16:39
to therapy the other day and I was like I'm extra depressed lately and she's like well let's think
00:16:43
about like what are some triggers in your life like that you do and I'm like oh you mean constantly
00:16:50
reading and thinking about murders and crimes and looking at fucking crime scene photos like
00:16:56
it's not just for my job yeah it suppresses me so this this week I was gonna do a survivor story
00:17:02
just to be like, it's okay, but I couldn't find one. Are you kidding me? I couldn't find a good one. I was just like, ugh.
00:17:09
Well, that's not your jam. It's not my jam. It's not what you hook into. It doesn't interest you as much.
00:17:13
I mean, you can never go up from Mary Vince, what's her name? Oh. Mary Vincent. Thank you. It is Mary Vincent.
00:17:21
Yeah. You can't go up from a fucking pregnant woman beating the shit out of a woman trying to steal
00:17:25
her baby, which you've done in the past. So that's Sarah Peters. You're so good at remembering things.
00:17:30
I didn't do Mary Vincent just now though. And Mary Vincent, who's just, I mean, so I'm not doing one of those.
00:17:37
I am doing a murderer. Well, that's what most people have tuned in for. Also, I just want to talk about the,
00:17:45
now I just wrote down Pepini, but are you following that case? No. Oh. Yes, you must be.
00:17:52
Which one is it? It's the woman who was kidnapped and they found her on Thanksgiving day and it took place up in Redding California which is up north of Sacramento Oh my God I don I know
00:18:05
I've seen the name, but I haven't read about it. They just did a 2020 on it. Oh, everyone was obsessed.
00:18:09
There's a mega thread on the Facebook page. It is the craziest case. And the newest thing that I just read this morning is,
00:18:18
so it's basically the woman disappears. It's a classic thing of their big sign saying,
00:18:24
please help us learn any information, then you have to read it. It's just like...
00:18:30
Because I actually found it. I saw it on... I saw like, oh, there's a thread on the Facebook page.
00:18:34
Like, this must be a good episode. Yes. So I found it. And then I read in the thing that... In the conversation, I was like,
00:18:41
why are they... Who gives a shit? It's the same thing that always happens. And what,
00:18:44
you know, these photos don't make... And I was like, fuck this. Then I... Okay, her husband killed her. Everyone knows that then. But I didn't realize how recent it was.
00:18:50
And she came back. They found her. Oh. They found her on the side of the road chained.
00:18:56
Is this Gone Girl? Oh, Allie was telling me about this. Yes. It's the craziest thing.
00:19:01
And there's all these additional facts that keep unfolding that are so crazy where it's
00:19:08
what everyone was saying in the mega thread, but it's so true. It's like, we're just waiting to find out what really happened.
00:19:12
It's like, we're days away from them going. They just found this clue and here's what's actually going on because-
00:19:19
And no one wants to be a dick. Too high heaven. Yes. And everybody's being very kind of aware of that.
00:19:24
Like nobody wants to blame her or point a finger, say you're funny or whatever. But if you watch the 2020, it doesn't feel right.
00:19:33
And there is this. Do they know it doesn't? Like, can you tell that they know about it not feeling right?
00:19:36
I didn't. It's on my DVR, but I haven't watched it yet. But there is, my sister, of course, was telling me word for word all about it.
00:19:43
And then there is a private detective who showed up and said he had a donation from an anonymous donor
00:19:49
to a reward that he was going to offer from an anonymous donor. And then he kind of started taking over,
00:19:56
like getting in front of everybody, like, hey, here's how it's going to go. And he...
00:20:00
Like the spokesman. It's the weirdest. It's just weird, weird, weird. Nothing seems right.
00:20:07
I want to say that I could be totally wrong, but I don't buy it. And, you know, I saw a couple minutes
00:20:11
of like the husband being interviewed. Yeah. And he doesn't seem right. It's going to be very interesting in like,
00:20:18
I think it'll be like a month or less when something is revealed and we're all just going to go,
00:20:24
holy shit. I can't wait. Because it doesn't, it just doesn't add up and there's all these extra things
00:20:29
that don't make sense. Sorry, this is a dumb thing to bring up. I'm not being specific about it.
00:20:33
No, it's good. People are into it. Let's get Merch Corner out of the way. Okay. MyFavoriteMurderShirts.com
00:20:40
and I know everyone was like, why didn't you call it My Favorite Mercher? And I'm like, because.
00:20:44
You know what? Everybody has great puns after the fact. You know what I mean? Yeah. You weren't there. You weren't there when it happened. Mentally, I was not there.
00:20:53
If you, not you personally, I'm saying them, like everybody can think of a great idea when
00:20:57
they have seven weeks to think of it. Right. I also didn't think this would be a thing. And so
00:21:01
I didn't get fucking clever. And I was like, it's not going to be a thing and people aren't
00:21:05
going to understand and they're not going to correctly put in goodnight. I feel, no,
00:21:10
stay awake because I feel like I didn't think this was going to be a thing is the banner
00:21:16
that's waving above this podcast. I love when people like tweet criticisms and I just want to write back,
00:21:23
are you fucking kidding me? Like you do understand. You understand this is a conversation we're recording.
00:21:29
Do you know how hurt I would feel if they tweeted that if we put, if we put, if we tried very fucking hard.
00:21:37
Like I'd be like, shit, we did our fucking best. God, I stayed up for seven days researching.
00:21:42
And we like the state of the art fucking recording studio. But it's my apartment and sometimes there's fires outside
00:21:49
and sometimes my fucking neighbor downstairs is playing World of Warcraft very loudly.
00:21:54
It's a fucking shit show. I mean, it just comes back to go fuck yourself. And the classic Jimmy Pardo quote, listen or don't.
00:22:04
We can't. We can't. We just can't. And we want to. And we won't. But we can't. Do we want to?
00:22:10
I don't know. Do you want to? For some of the people. Maybe. But do they even? I don't.
00:22:17
I don't either. I don't either. Is that okay? It's okay. All right. So that's merch corner.
00:22:23
I guess this has gone on so long. Yeah, I know. I like that we were like, should we do this quickly?
00:22:27
And we're like, yeah, we're just going to, we're going to do this quickly. We're going to get it done.
00:22:31
Georgia's got a storytelling show. We're going to zip, zap, zop. We're talkers. No fucking way.
00:22:35
Well, I just don't get to see you that much. It's nice to talk to you. Hey. Hey, miss you.
00:22:41
Miss you, miss you. Bye. Bye-bye. you had a thing you wanted to tell me I started a new job
00:22:49
which I'm super excited about and it's going to be super fun but I like I very cockily
00:22:56
told Georgia I was like no this is going to be easy and we're going to be I'm going to be able to do
00:23:00
even more stuff this time because blah blah blah well of course it's we just non-stop 10am to like
00:23:06
tonight I got out at can I be honest like my heart was a little broken when you were like I'm starting on Monday
00:23:12
yeah I'm like oh Yeah. I had you for two weeks. You did. And now we're in a long distance murder relationship again.
00:23:20
We're back to having to write civil war letters to each other. We're like each other's, what's it called?
00:23:26
When you get custody of a kid, but like we're together of it. Oh, like co-parenting?
00:23:31
No, we're when you can see a kid sometimes and it has to be supervised. Oh, like court appointed.
00:23:38
We're court appointed friends. So like we Stephen is our fucking corner corner appointed fucking supervisor.
00:23:43
And like you and I get to be together. That's right. Once a week. We have to make sure we don't abuse each other.
00:23:48
Two hours. No drinking. No. Well, hey. No, it's true. Yeah. I think I can't not work.
00:23:55
I can't. I can't. You're working. This is the job now. I know. I know. This is a job.
00:24:00
But it, I mean, if anything didn't feel like a job, I would say it's this. Oh, no, for sure.
00:24:05
Oh, fuck that. Yeah, no, this is fucking, this is so stupid. Like the fact that I'm like, I'm depressed.
00:24:10
What am I? I'm not doing anything. Oh, my God. I have a fucking career called my favorite murder.
00:24:15
No, it's the best. This is hilarious. It's like the fucking Pepini case. I can't wait to see what unfolds.
00:24:23
It's going to be either tragic and we were wrong. Yes. Everyone's going to owe everybody an apology.
00:24:29
Or fucked up and hilarious. Right. And we were right. Yes. That sounds fun. I mean, that's kind of always the option too.
00:24:36
Anyway. So I guess that's all. And we're back. I'm sorry. I enjoy our banter. I'm sorry that these episodes make me love our podcast.
00:24:55
I think it's just really fun to revisit these conversations. Yeah. And I think people like that about it.
00:25:02
Like there's people who don't listen because of the intro. I totally understand that.
00:25:06
But the people who do listen specifically do it, I think, for the intro. Yes. In addition to the rest of it.
00:25:13
I don't know. I feel like we're a niche area of true crime where most true crime people want it a certain way.
00:25:20
And we're like, we're going to give it to you with a different sauce. And then there's people who are like, I'd never have that sauce.
00:25:26
And how dare you give me that sauce? And it's like, absolutely, God bless you. And then there's the people that are like, this is the sauce I've been waiting for my whole life.
00:25:34
Right. And the people are like, I like the thing, but can I get the sauce on the side?
00:25:37
And then they don't, you know, and like, we totally understand that because they still want the thing.
00:25:41
And those are the skippers. They're sauce on the side, people. They're still there.
00:25:45
And also they're kind of visionaries because how many things do you skip now? Like how much time do you spend with your finger on the fast forward thing of almost everything where it's like.
00:25:54
Plus 30, plus 30, plus 30. We don't have time for other people's bullshit. Also with the sauce analogy, I really love it because it is like, I want the sauce, but I don't want as much as you fucking put on it.
00:26:04
I'm just talking about food now because when I get ex-Benedict, I'm like, can you put the hollandae on the side, please?
00:26:08
Because it's drowning. Why is that the norm now? Yes. And also you don't need parsley on top of everything.
00:26:17
It's just a weird color that you're doing to be like colorful. But I don't want to eat a bunch of fucking chopped up parsley.
00:26:24
Right. So maybe those are like the semi skippers who like just are fast forwarding through literally what I'm saying right now.
00:26:31
Yeah, that's right. I like the I bet it's a lot of younger people who are like, we already know what you're going to say.
00:26:36
Just it's enough of this shit already, which I'm like, hey, guess what? Fully support you.
00:26:41
No, I'm saying you fucking never know what we're going to say. You really think you were going to hear about fucking holiday sauce on the fucking true crime podcast?
00:26:47
I bet you fucking didn't know that. You didn't know I was going to cry about parsley.
00:26:51
You didn't know. You had no idea. Also, I just do want to say, and I'm sorry to be this way, but I saw the joke that I said, which is everybody has great puns after the fact.
00:27:02
I really want to make that a bumper sticker only because people always love to be on social media being like, why didn't you say?
00:27:10
You know what you should have called it? You know what you should have said? Yeah.
00:27:13
Easy to do after the fact. Hard to do in the moment. Puns are 20-20. Ow. my therapist saying that maybe listening and reading true crime constantly isn't great for
00:27:25
my mental health not always great yeah and a good thing to bring up and tell people where it's like
00:27:29
no one is saying this is always the answer in right like for everybody because we run into a
00:27:36
lot of people who are like i had to i love your podcast i had to stop listening for a while but
00:27:40
and that's like uh-huh yeah totally understood we kind of left our bodies on this podcast as well
00:27:46
for a while. I believe it was called Quarantine and it was not pretty. You're five through
00:27:52
nine around. Oh, and then you're, oh my God, you're talking about the Sherry Papini story that just came
00:27:58
out. I thought the husband did it. What a moment. Those things and it was almost like the
00:28:04
death knell for those People Magazine white lady drama, whatever that's called. Missing and yeah. Yes, the white
00:28:12
woman syndrome of the media. And this was really one of the last big ones and it was so nonsensical from the beginning and she was so racist from the beginning
00:28:20
of like yes two latina women one short one tall right one with dark hair one with gray hair
00:28:26
they were saying yeah such bullshit there is also there's a hulu docuseries called perfect wife the
00:28:32
mysterious disappearance of sherry pepini that's really really good and so good that i never have
00:28:36
to hear about it again you know what i mean yeah or it's like that's not a story anymore put it to
00:28:41
bed? Put it to bed. They just put it to bed. Yeah. But I'm not that's not my story. That's just me
00:28:46
taking up more time at the top of the show. Like Skippers Unite is truly like we're almost doing
00:28:51
an argument for Skippers in this show. We really are. OK, this has all been Skip material. And now
00:28:58
let's start. Now let's get into the part where the Skippers would join us. Right. Right. It's
00:29:03
Georgia's story about Leslie Allen Williams. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer,
00:29:14
Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent. The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14.
00:29:20
Making plays that end up on everyone's feed, scoring from angles that don't make sense,
00:29:24
rewriting record books that barely had time to gather dust. Because Next doesn't wait for an invitation, and Hyundai doesn't either.
00:29:31
Hyundai has always moved the future within reach. Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle.
00:29:37
Hyundai did it by engineering EVs with ultra fast charging capability. And Hyundai continues doing it every day.
00:29:43
From robotics that change how people live to young athletes changing the game, the future isn't some far off concept.
00:29:49
It's already here. Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye.
00:29:55
This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace It 2026 And if you have an alternative career like food photography or professional mixtape making or witchcraft you going to need an online presence
00:30:06
Whatever your thing is, Squarespace helps you build a website that's as unique as you
00:30:10
are. Squarespace provides you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one
00:30:14
place. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your offerings with a customizable
00:30:19
website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments.
00:30:26
Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools.
00:30:30
With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business.
00:30:38
Head to squarespace.com slash murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
00:30:45
Goodbye. Summer clothes should feel easy and still look polished. Low maintenance, high reward. That's how we live our lives.
00:30:54
For summer clothes you will actually wear, there's Quince. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and toffs with style starting at $32.
00:31:03
Their denim is soft and easy to wear, and their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights.
00:31:09
Everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup.
00:31:17
And it's not just clothing. Quince has become a destination for elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life.
00:31:27
I am a fan of Quince. Yeah. Karen's wardrobe is Quince-centric. I'm a lazy basics person, and the things that I get from them, I always go, oh yeah, now I'm wearing these.
00:31:38
They work, they're cute, they're stylish. And they're classy. Like it doesn't look lazy, it looks classy.
00:31:44
And it's so affordable. Yeah. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash MFM for free shipping on your order
00:31:50
and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash MFM for free shipping and
00:31:58
365 day returns. Quince.com slash MFM. Goodbye. Are you first or am I first? Sorry? Are you first or am I first? Oh, I thought you said something
00:32:10
about a horse. I swear to God. Are you a horse or am I a horse? Am I a horse this week?
00:32:14
I don't remember I don't remember last week at all Stephen we're gonna need you to take notes
00:32:20
Stephen oh last week was that one of yours that I keep thinking about of the babysitter and the children
00:32:28
oh fuck that was a rough one that was first last week right what was yours no idea
00:32:36
what the fuck is wrong with us no I mean I'm like I'm about to be put into a home
00:32:41
what is wrong with us Lord Lucan yeah Oh Lord Lucan That fucking guy Did you see the people
00:32:47
That sent the picture Where Lord Lucan And Brad Pitt No Oh yes I saw that one And I saw someone
00:32:52
Went and took a photo Of the fucking Plumber's arms Yes That was the best We got two pictures
00:32:58
Of the plumber's arms Which was the bar That Lord Lucan I don't know Somebody went to
00:33:02
But then Brad Pitt Looks so much Like Lord Lucan When he has his Inglorious Bastards mustache
00:33:08
Calling it here first This is gonna become a movie Brad Pitt's gonna Fucking play someone
00:33:12
We deserve royalties Yeah, we definitely deserve it. We had our hand in this pie.
00:33:18
Brad Pitt. It felt gross. It felt gross, but we still want money. But we left our hand in there.
00:33:23
So then that means it's you? Yeah. Okay. And mine's not super long, but it sucks.
00:33:34
Okay. All right, Karen. Yes. So in May of 1992, 39-year-old Leslie Allen Williams, it's a dude, of Detroit is arrested when the police find a woman in the trunk of his car.
00:33:52
All right? So that's where we're starting. A woman's body? A woman, yes. Deseased.
00:33:57
Yes. Okay. So, no, no, I'm sorry. Okay, sorry. She's alive. I'm sorry I immediately started questioning.
00:34:04
No, you're right to question because I clearly don't know. Let me start over. Okay.
00:34:08
In May of 1992, 39-year-old Leslie Allen Williams of Detroit is arrested when the police found a woman
00:34:15
in the trunk of his car. A live woman. Uh-huh. He's charged with attempted murder,
00:34:21
attempted rape, and kidnapping. She had just been abducted from a cemetery that was close by.
00:34:28
She was visiting her mom's grave. What? Like, can you pick a fucking better time, dude?
00:34:34
Oh. Like, I don't know what a good time to get kidnapped is, but it's not then. Well, I mean, if you're evil, that's the best time.
00:34:40
Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, wait till you're at your saddest. Yeah. It's either that or when you're watching Ordinary People. There are a couple times I'm
00:34:49
going to grab you. That is the saddest movie. Yeah. Or maybe if you're at The Pound. Yeah.
00:34:55
And then you just walked out of The Pound. Post-pound kidnappings. That's going to become
00:34:58
the new fucking thing. So sad. That's the new thing. Or like you're in a dressing room trying
00:35:04
to pull on pants. Oh, I don't. This is why I don't go in dressing rooms. That's not why.
00:35:07
But also I don't go in dressing rooms. Fuck that. Okay. I'm just going to keep thinking of self-taught times
00:35:12
and then you go. Sorry, sorry. No, I love it. I know we're missing some good ones.
00:35:16
So Leslie Allen Williams, he's a dude again. The first time he was arrested was when he was a teenager
00:35:23
and he was convicted of attempted breaking and entering, larceny from an auto, breaking and entering,
00:35:30
assault with intent to commit murder, assault and first degree criminal sexual conduct
00:35:36
when he's a fucking teenager. That was a ton of things. Yeah. Do you think he's going to straighten his life out?
00:35:43
Yes. Nope. Turns out nope. So in 1983, he pleads guilty to sexual assault with intent to commit kidnapping
00:35:52
and assault with intent to sexually penetrate for a kidnapping committed was committed less than two weeks after he paroled from prison So the original time he gets prison when he was a teenager two weeks later
00:36:05
he fucking does all this crazy shit because he's like, I can't control myself. Yeah.
00:36:09
He's got out and he's like, what should I do? Pinball? Yeah. He's like, rehabilitation works.
00:36:15
No, it doesn't. No, it really doesn't. So at that time in 83, he gets a sentence of seven to 30 years.
00:36:23
in 1990 after serving seven years he's paroled oh just the fucking bare minimum i mean by even
00:36:31
though i like it took two weeks for him to commit i mean something that you and i are going to commit
00:36:35
in our lifetimes probably but not in two weeks right you already have a couple of those right
00:36:40
i don't want to talk about it's not about what i've done it's not what i'm guilty of like we're
00:36:47
here to point the finger you're so modest like you don't even want to make this about you and like
00:36:51
You don't want to be more badass than Leslie Allen Williams. My super long rap sheet.
00:36:59
Okay. Paroled after seven years. And then so when he gets caught with this woman in his trunk,
00:37:06
who's still alive, that's two years after he's paroled. So like, what was he up to those past two years, Karen?
00:37:14
He probably had like a bunch of pictures on his wall and he was connecting pictures with Red String.
00:37:19
Oh, they do that in every fucking detective movie. right? Yeah. But instead of being a detective, he's like the criminal that's really planning
00:37:26
stuff out. Yeah. Fuck. I mean, right? You wanted a suggestion, didn't you? I did. Thank you. Okay.
00:37:32
No, I did. So while he's in prison, he tells reporters that he should be, quote, locked up.
00:37:39
And that leads authorities to think that he might be fucking doing, had done some other crimes.
00:37:44
Then his girlfriend, always the fucking girlfriend, was like, you know what? He liked to visit this
00:37:49
one rural field near town, maybe you should check that out. Who visits fields? Fucking serial killers
00:37:57
who bury bodies in those fields. Other than that, it's like, who, what do you...
00:38:02
Why do you need to go to a field? You're fine without going to that field. No. Unless you're a ghost baseball player,
00:38:08
you don't need to be in that field. Oh, that's true. That was good, though. I really liked that.
00:38:18
That was like quick. Um, so, so his girlfriend, so they go to this place and they find the body of 18 year old
00:38:28
Cammie Marie Villanova, Villanova. So it's in a field near town, 35 miles northwest of Detroit.
00:38:37
They're like, Hey dude, we found this body in this place. You like to hang out? And he was like,
00:38:41
bullshit. I did it. So he confesses and then he leads investigators to the bodies of Michelle
00:38:49
Urban, who was 16 and her 14-year-old sister, Melissa. They were originally thought to be
00:38:55
runaways because that's what 14-year-olds do. He tells them that he had stalked the sisters
00:39:05
in their town of Heartland. It's another suburb of Detroit. He used to break into homes there
00:39:12
and he used to break into homes of women he met in his therapist's office. What?
00:39:18
He went to therapy? Clearly, yeah. He went to therapy. This is why I never talk to anyone
00:39:24
in the waiting rooms of therapy offices and because I hate everyone. Well, and also, what do you talk about?
00:39:29
I mean, how's it going? Have you been crying? I've been crying. Also, it just makes me mad
00:39:34
when we tell these stories to each other and it's like, you list off all these shitty things
00:39:39
someone's done. It's like, and his girlfriend. You're like, yeah. So you can just date really easily.
00:39:44
Not even his ex-girlfriend. Like his current girlfriend. Current relationship he's having
00:39:48
with another adult. Probably lives together. She probably like kicks him down for fucking Diet Cokes.
00:39:53
Yeah. Right? At the least. At the very least. At the very least. She's making that son of a bitch casseroles.
00:40:00
Honey, I hope you're happy now. I don't mean that enough. I hope you're fucking happy.
00:40:03
I mean, like, I hope you're happy. Yes. I truly hope she's happy. Better things have happened.
00:40:08
Yes. Wishing her well. What is it that the South people say where they say, bless her heart.
00:40:14
Bless her heart. I always say wishing her well. Okay. He stalks them after he had broken into homes of women.
00:40:21
He had met at his therapist's office. Fucking awesome. That makes me feel really great and safe.
00:40:26
And he started stalking these girls and he had been peeping at them. he saw them eight times over several days while casing houses to rob.
00:40:36
Fuck. He said he was sexually attracted to the way Melissa, the younger sister, walked.
00:40:43
No, that's not yours to be sexually attracted. I mean, you have a problem. It's not the way she walks.
00:40:50
You're not allowed to be sexually attracted to something that someone doesn't want you to be.
00:40:54
You know what I mean? Does that make any sense? it's a nice concept but it doesn't work that way
00:41:00
great okay so armed with a three inch pocket knife he confronts the girls by jumping from some bushes
00:41:11
and he puts them in the trunk of his car rapes them suffocates them within an hour of kidnapping them
00:41:18
oh god they're dead this guy's just on a fucking he's a berserker he's just like
00:41:25
only wants to do bad things all the time. Well, he's like, I had two weeks before.
00:41:30
Who knows how long I'm going to have before. But it's like, well, don't do it. Then don't do it.
00:41:33
Like you got... He can't. He clearly can't. He clearly can't. This is what he wants to do.
00:41:38
Besides go to therapy and have a relationship. Fucking asshole. He drives to the Oakland Cemetery,
00:41:45
Oakwood Cemetery in Fenton and dumps the girls in a shallow grave that he had fucking, I think, made before.
00:41:51
Yeah. Okay then So the next victim is Cynthia Jones She 16 She found near Milford which you never remember this but my husband Vince Averill is from Milford
00:42:06
With that terrible story of those two girls. An equally awful story of a fucking two sweet girls
00:42:11
getting murdered in a park in Milford. Well, it just so happens there's another girl from Milford.
00:42:17
So in January, she and her boyfriend, Luke, were confronted inside Luke's park car
00:42:24
in Milford, which is Michigan Central Park. So they're fucking parked making out
00:42:28
and you're like, I'm safe. I'm with a guy. Everything's fine. It's like, there's two of us.
00:42:32
Like, buddy up. Nope. They were told he needed their car because he had just robbed a store.
00:42:38
So he was like trying to get their car. He escorts them both at knife point into the woods,
00:42:42
ties Luke to a tree and takes off with Cindy. He drives an hour to his apartment
00:42:48
and he rapes and tortures her for a few hours then took her to Buno Road in Milford.
00:42:57
We had a pre-dug, actually, I'm sorry, that was a pre-dug grave, four foot grave,
00:43:01
stabs her, rapes her, puts her unclothed body inside the grave. Did I ask Vince about this?
00:43:08
Yes, I did. And what he remembers. Did he know? Yeah. Here's what he said. Well, to be fair,
00:43:14
he's the one who told me to do this story. So I said, what do you remember about this?
00:43:18
This is crazy. Just that her boyfriend got shit because he came up on them in the park
00:43:22
and tied him up and took her. People wanted to know why he didn't do anything. We were in 11th grade.
00:43:28
That's so awful. So he was in class with her, he had school with her. And the boyfriend,
00:43:34
people were saying that to the boyfriend? Yeah. That's fucking awful. That's what he remembers.
00:43:38
And then he asked his friend Dan about it. And he said he doesn't know if it came from court
00:43:44
or he just remembered this, that the guy had Cynthia for a while before he killed and raped her repeatedly
00:43:51
and would tell her he'd let her go if she just let him each time. Oh, man. So that's what he remembers probably from the trial.
00:44:01
Milford, fuck. And it's like, I've been there. It's like a charming little suburb.
00:44:05
Suburb. So all three of the girls, as well as the original on Miss Villanova, they disappeared on weekends
00:44:16
between September 14th and January 2nd. That's four fucking women then. And then he said to state police detectives,
00:44:24
I don't want to cause any trouble. I don't want to cause taxpayers any grief. I want to be locked up.
00:44:29
Lock me up so I don't do it again. I have no control over my life. Holy shit. I know.
00:44:35
So his last sentencing had been in 1983 when he threatened to abduct a woman and he released her unharmed.
00:44:43
So he got a shit ton of breaks from the justice system getting light sentences, early paroles, after guilty pleas on a bunch of charges of breaking
00:44:51
and entering, rape and assault since 1971. So multiple fucking breaks for rape. You're like,
00:44:59
okay, breaking and entering, fucking, like that just shows you how much fucking women's bodies
00:45:05
meant back then. Rape and fucking assault. So he gets sentenced, everything, and fucking Detroit goes crazy
00:45:17
because they're like, how the fuck did this happen? And they want to hold all the parole board members accountable.
00:45:24
Whoa. Yeah. So they draft a legislation to make the panel more accountable. They got expanded.
00:45:33
They could only serve three-year terms appointed by the corrections director and they could have them removed from the parole board.
00:45:41
And it went crazy. And this is kind of why the Detroit or Michigan prison system is so full
00:45:50
is because you can't parole people anymore. Wow. It's so easily. It's like really hard to get parole.
00:45:56
Ever again. Wow. Yeah. So it's hard to get paroled. So they're fucking crowded to shit.
00:46:00
Okay. Also, there's a war on drugs and there shouldn't be. Okay. And then, so he's 62 years old now.
00:46:10
He's serving multiple life sentences in the Carson City Correctional Facility in Michigan.
00:46:15
Hope you don't live there, everyone. We're not doing a show there. Please. So then in July 2000, a local woman shares this memory she had from 1976.
00:46:27
She says she's the one that got away and hoped her story would enlighten everyone to trust
00:46:32
their instincts. she said she was followed by a man, stalked before stalking laws were in place,
00:46:38
which everyone thinks back that there was not stalking laws in place. For so long.
00:46:43
For so long. Even now they're light in a lot of places, right? And he captures her,
00:46:51
manages to get away with her mom and they report the police. There was nothing they could do
00:46:56
because he hadn't committed a crime. Oh. So he was aggressively stalking her. He kidnaps her,
00:47:02
I don't know if he kidnapped her. I'm sorry. He didn't get. Oh, sorry. No, I'm sorry.
00:47:08
No, I'm the one. No, I am. In the end, she wrote, it's human nature to assume that things like this happen to someone else,
00:47:17
somewhere else. I'm here to say that it can happen to you and it can happen here.
00:47:21
I grew up in a small town called Fenton, Michigan, and the man that chased me was Leslie Allen Williams.
00:47:27
Are you willing to go on assuming that this can't happen to you? Wow. Yeah. Oh, so he chased her and then her mom showed up and she got away in chase.
00:47:37
But he had been aggressively stalking her before that. And the cops were like, well, he didn't commit a crime.
00:47:43
He didn't. Once he stabs you, let us know. And then we'll give him two years in prison.
00:47:47
Well, and yeah, that's why those, the people that got those stalking laws, I mean, there's like TV movies about it where it's just like,
00:47:55
it's gone on for so long and it's basically like, well, we can't do anything. I'm terrified.
00:48:00
Have you ever been stalked? No. I had a creep once, but it wasn't like aggressive stalking.
00:48:07
It's just like a place I worked at that this person would like show up a lot. This is why, again,
00:48:14
like why isn't attempted murder tried more harshly? They attempted to murder someone
00:48:19
and they didn't do it. So you're only going to give them a quarter of the time they would have gotten with murder?
00:48:24
We can't keep talking about this. Yes, we can. And we can change things and we will change the law.
00:48:28
But the law you want to change is you want attempted murder be changed into murder.
00:48:33
No, I want it to be fucking, I want it to be harsher sentences. Yes. Well, but all around, I mean, I agree with you in that way.
00:48:39
And we are reading stories from sometimes that are from like 20, 30 years ago, where
00:48:44
it almost just is a cult. It's a cultural attitude where it's like, that's fine.
00:48:50
Or they'll go to jail. It'll change. And there is that thing of like, yes, rape is a, you know, there was a, there was a,
00:48:58
man who, I think this was a story that was tweeted. He, it was a pedophile. He was arrested and
00:49:05
given 522 years in jail. So it's like, I think we are catching up to this idea that we want to
00:49:12
ensure that these people don't hurt people anymore. But the idea that it was set up so that
00:49:18
this man was harsher on himself than the parole board was on him. He was saying,
00:49:24
please lock me up. Please take this seriously. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. Fucked up.
00:49:31
And that Vince knew one of the fucking... Oh, the idea that that guy got shit for basically
00:49:38
being a victim. It wasn't even like people suspected him. You know what I mean? Like, you know how that happens?
00:49:44
Like, oh, we think it was the boyfriend. it was worse than that It wasn't even like,
00:49:48
because you could never be proven otherwise. Like, it's not like they caught the killer.
00:49:51
It wasn't me. And everyone is like, sorry. It's like, no, you fucking suck because you didn't do anything.
00:49:56
You didn't do anything. When it's like, you don't know what the situation is like.
00:50:00
Well, and also if your life is being threatened, like it's, you can't do anything.
00:50:05
That's just people really mismanaging their own anxiety and being like, I'll blame you.
00:50:11
This is the easiest thing to do. Like this wouldn't have happened to me because of this other thing.
00:50:16
Right, which is exactly. It's like, yeah, you're trying to make yourself feel better
00:50:19
by going, if I was in that situation, I would have been able to take care of it.
00:50:23
therefore you are at fault when it's like, I don't think so. And what an awful thing to do
00:50:29
to another person. Yeah. Nah, dude. Nah. Hey. Did you get your haircut? I cut my hair over my sink
00:50:37
tonight. It looks really cute. Does it? Yeah. I'm sorry. Cause I was thinking about that
00:50:41
part of the time, but it's a really good shape. It's not like a mom bob though, is it?
00:50:46
Not on the least. It's actually super twenties. That's why I was very distracted by it. Cause I
00:50:52
I keep thinking I look like I would like be a mom in a minivan commercial. You know what I mean?
00:50:57
No, it has really good angles. Okay. Thank you. I cut it myself. I went to three months of beauty school.
00:51:02
This is the way that we, I offset my anxiety about hearing about terrible things.
00:51:07
Yeah. I want everyone to know that like we are not terrible people. We're just, this is like us lightening the load of fucking pressing anxiety.
00:51:16
If you think we're terrible because we talk about hair, F it. stop then you can listen or you can't what was it listen or don't right
00:51:24
okay we're back any updates for this story georgia well i mean one personal update i was sitting next
00:51:33
to vince while i was studying this rewind episode and i was like i had completely forgotten that he
00:51:39
knew the victim cynthia jones 16 year old cynthia jones and her boyfriend luke who had been
00:51:44
confronted with Cynthia, he like knew them, knew them, like went to school with them throughout
00:51:50
and said he was a really nice guy. And then also I was like, did people say shit to him about it?
00:51:56
He's like, all I remember is that our coach, because he was like on a team with him,
00:52:00
coach came into the locker room at one point when he wasn't there and said, nobody better say shit to him about not having, you know, done something to defend her because
00:52:09
it's just as impossible. And thank God that coach said that back then and knew it.
00:52:14
for real. That's like such an incredible empathetic awareness. I wonder if he came up with that on his
00:52:20
own as a coach and was just like being a good person or if some crisis counselor was like,
00:52:26
here's what you need to say. Yeah. Yeah. Vince had some fucked up shit happen in this like sweet
00:52:30
little town. It's so crazy. Yeah. And as for the story, we talked about how Leslie Allen Williams
00:52:36
kept getting early release and parole before he was caught for these murders. And I said how it
00:52:41
eventually led to legislation changes and is now part of the reason why the Michigan prison system
00:52:45
is so full. Well, according to the Council on Criminal Justice, Michigan's average prison
00:52:50
sentence length is roughly three times the national average. Whoa. I know. And the state
00:52:55
leads in the proportion of its prison population serving sentences longer than 10 years. Wow.
00:53:02
The Second Look Sentencing Act is a proposed legislation that would allow those who have
00:53:06
served at least 20 years to petition their original court for a sentence reduction.
00:53:10
and anyone approved would still serve the remainder of their reduced sentence and be
00:53:14
subject to parole review before release. And that would hopefully combat the outdated and rigid
00:53:20
sentencing system and recognize that excessively long sentences often outlive their purpose
00:53:25
and fail to reflect personal transformation. But those convicted of criminal sexual conduct,
00:53:30
terrorism, mass shootings, and certain domestic violence cases would be ineligible.
00:53:35
And then finally, Leslie Allen Williams remains in prison to this day. Huh. Yeah. Should we get to your story that should be three episodes, but we didn't really
00:53:45
know a lot about it? I gotta say this. I was like, oh shit, this is this episode where I so clearly
00:53:53
am like it like getting called in front of the class and being like Karen would you like to give your oral report on the book you were supposed to read And it like crack crack crack my knuckles and just be like I was going to do this and
00:54:06
then I did this. But it's a very upsetting to me. Like, here's the thing. If you're going to start a podcast, just quick reminder, it's forever.
00:54:16
So what you are recording is forever. You will be held to account if people pay enough attention.
00:54:22
And this was a real me having maybe two jobs at that time and trying to get my homework done and just not getting it done. So thinking I could be conversational about these cases, I knew facts about the Letterman stalker to kind of hold that up. But the idea that I was going to try to improvise through talking about Israel Keyes, who was one of the most prolific serial killers in America, is such a green, ridiculous thing.
00:54:49
But we know that now. We didn't really know at the time. And yeah, this just shows how far we've come now. This is 2016 still when we're fucking brand new babies at this and making it up as we go along.
00:55:02
As Bradford likes to say, Bradford Berleski, who works in our legal department, you were building the plane as you were flying it. And that is absolutely as scary and as accurate.
00:55:12
it, right? The railroad tracks were being literally placed in front of our big mouth train.
00:55:19
And I was literally like coming to a point in my writing career that I had been working toward for
00:55:24
literally 10 years. And then it was like, you got to quit that. And it's like, how am I going to do
00:55:30
this? This is, it was wild. But I, so anyway, not to make excuses, whatever, listen with a grain of
00:55:35
salt and with this, you know, with my full apologies of the casualness of the Israel keys part. It's
00:55:41
truly like saying, let me just synopsize for you in five minutes what's in the New York City library.
00:55:47
We're just like, good luck, dummy. What are you doing? Why would you do this? Because we're us. Let's do it. Let's get into Karen's story.
00:56:00
While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on
00:56:04
the next generation of talent. The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14.
00:56:09
Making plays that end up on everyone's feed, scoring from angles that don't make sense, rewriting record books that barely had time to gather dust.
00:56:16
Because Next doesn't wait for an invitation, and Hyundai doesn't either. Hyundai has always moved the future within reach.
00:56:22
Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle. Hyundai did it by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability.
00:56:29
And Hyundai continues doing it every day. From robotics that change how people live to young athletes changing the game, the future isn't some far off concept.
00:56:38
It's already here. Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye.
00:56:44
When you're young, you don't really buy furniture. You either inherit something from your parents or you just drag something in from the street like you're some kind of hipster raccoon.
00:56:53
When you're ready for furniture that you actually like, check out Article. Article offers the style and durability you want at a price that actually makes sense.
00:57:01
They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time.
00:57:05
There's no filler. Every item is chosen for craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.
00:57:10
And with Articles' 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.
00:57:18
Plus, Articles' customer care team is available seven days a week, offering knowledgeable support and even free interior design services to help you get your home just right.
00:57:27
Yes, please. Don't we all kind of need that? like the eye of an expert? Yeah. Where should I put this? And also what should I move here and
00:57:34
there? And what should I even get? But Article has it all so you can get whatever there. That's
00:57:37
right. You could be like, I have this thing. Should I get this one or that one? Totally.
00:57:41
Am I Scandi or am I mid-century? Help me be boho chic, please. If you're in the market for a
00:57:45
beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com. Goodbye. Summer is all about
00:57:52
saying yes, going out and bringing the mess home in your car. Sand, grass and melting snacks will
00:57:58
inevitably hitch a ride. But with WeatherTech, you can live life to the fullest. WeatherTech
00:58:03
floor liners, cargo liner, and seat protectors allow you to keep up with your summer adventures
00:58:07
without the worry. WeatherTech is built for all of those summer things, allowing you the freedom
00:58:11
to go all in. WeatherTech is an American-made premium product built to last and easy to clean.
00:58:16
If you're going all out this summer, you need WeatherTech. Visit weathertech.com today. Goodbye.
00:58:22
Bye. Now that it's my time to shine. Go, Karen. This is not going to be good. I love it.
00:58:35
I made this mistake. Here's, I'll walk you through my mistake. Please. I started going into very deeply researching a woman named Mary Margaret Ray.
00:58:48
And she was David Letterman's stalker for years. in the 80s. And it is a story that has fascinated me forever
00:58:58
because she was obsessed with David Letterman. She would break into his house. She would steal his car.
00:59:08
She would get pulled over speeding in his car and tell the cops that she was Mrs. David Letterman
00:59:12
and they would let her go. How did she get in the house? This was back when there were,
00:59:17
again, this is the time where like, I'm sure he like locked the front door or whatever
00:59:22
and then she would be like, I need to get into that house and make it happen. She would leave presents for him inside the house.
00:59:31
One time he was in bed with his girlfriend watching TV and they looked up and she was standing in the hallway.
00:59:37
Oh my God. Yes. And, but here's the mistake that they made because nobody knew anything about stalking
00:59:43
and all the psychology of it. He would talk about it on the TV show. So she got all this attention
00:59:49
and she was like positive reinforcement. Well and the thing that she had she had schizophrenia And it a very sad story of course once I started looking into it it a incredibly sad story because she had it and so did two of her brothers and so did her
01:00:05
father. So it's just- You got no chance. I mean, it's so rough. And it's the classic thing of
01:00:12
she would start taking her medication, get better and think she didn't need medication anymore.
01:00:17
That's everyone. I mean, everybody does that. It's like, I'm better now. Even if she wasn't schizophrenic, she still was fucked, you know, by that many.
01:00:26
I mean, not that everyone is, but like, you're going to have some fucking issues.
01:00:29
Well, because schizophrenia, they believe is very genetic. And so, yeah, it's very difficult.
01:00:37
And in that family, it's like that. I mean, that's just such a sad story. I mean, I, oh, honey.
01:00:42
But like, you know, yeah, it's just an interesting thing that you have to look at everyone's life.
01:00:48
Like everyone's kind of a victim and a fucking. Yes. Well, and like, it's easy for we, it's the thing I love the most about this podcast,
01:00:56
we just get to say our opinion. We're not obviously not experts, obviously. But you're not an expert?
01:01:01
Well, I mean, I do, I do know how to cut and paste from Wikipedia. So yes, I am an expert in that way.
01:01:07
But yes, everybody has, there's backstory and context to everything. You know, but anyway,
01:01:14
the thing was that he would talk about it. Like there was a bit he would call his house
01:01:19
and then go, oh good, no one's home. And hang it. Like he would do things like that on the show.
01:01:26
But she not only had schizophrenia, but she had a thing called erotomania, which is a delusional disorder
01:01:33
where you believe that another person is in love with you. And usually it's applied to someone with higher status
01:01:40
or it's someone famous. No, I have that with Vince. Yeah, no, I get it. That guy.
01:01:45
I have it with Elvis and Vince. They totally love you so much. Yeah. So, but the problem is that in the delusion,
01:01:55
they think that the secret admirer is declaring their affection through special glances,
01:02:03
signals, telepathy, or messages through the media. Like on your fucking talk show.
01:02:09
So then he's actually doing it. You idiot. Didn't anyone tell him? No one knew. They didn't know how to handle this situation.
01:02:17
That's such a man thing to do in my mind. But it's also just an uneducated. Yeah.
01:02:22
Like at the time, people were like, peeping Toms are funny. Yeah. You know what I mean?
01:02:26
He just really likes you. Yes. Stalkers are like, he's so into you. Don't friend zone him.
01:02:31
Totally. What did you do to make him stalk you? That kind of thing. Exactly. Why are you wearing short skirts
01:02:38
if you don't want a stalker? Yeah. And the thing that when I found out this part,
01:02:43
because I was insanely obsessed with Letterman when I was growing up. I used to go to bed and this when I was like 12 and 13 and I would get back up at 1230 and go pull
01:02:54
the chair really close to the TV and watch Letterman from 1230 to 130 every night. So you
01:03:01
were kind of the stalker too. I also was a stalker. But I just, what was happening on that TV was like,
01:03:08
there's this other world out there that I can't believe exists that I want to be a part of so bad.
01:03:13
where it's like Chris Elliott popping up as the man underneath the stairs type of stuff
01:03:17
where you're like, none of this entertainment is on my normal daytime TV. I love it.
01:03:22
So it was very exciting. So I kind of like was like, yeah, I get why she wants to go to his house
01:03:27
and drive his car and say she's married to him. He's the only talk show I could ever fucking stand.
01:03:32
Yeah, because he wasn't doing normal talk show things. No, totally. And he was so insanely rude.
01:03:39
So it devolved. she actually eventually kind of went off him and started stalking an ex-astronaut.
01:03:47
But it was just all... Step down. Yes, exactly. I bet David Letterman was like, what?
01:03:54
Yeah. He's like, bitch. Eventually though, and this is the worst part because she knew her life was that it was,
01:04:01
she was just out of control. She killed herself by kneeling in front of a train.
01:04:07
No. and when I heard that the first time I was just like it's so awful it's so like
01:04:16
it's so insanely sacrificial it's so symbolic or something and she wrote her mother a letter saying
01:04:25
she was going to do it and saying I want to die in the valley that I love and she did it
01:04:28
I can't remember somewhere in like somewhere in Montana I think it's just such a dramatic
01:04:35
story anyway I did all this work and research and then by the end realized, well, that's not a murder. That's a very sad story of
01:04:42
extreme mental illness and suicide. And then I was like, oh, so then I had to start over.
01:04:49
Oh, wait, so you're starting now? So now I'm starting, but this will be fast. No, I'm kidding. Okay.
01:04:53
Because you're like, I have a show. So now you're starting. Oh, so you're going to do two murders? This is the thing. And I just, I guess I wanted to say
01:05:03
that because that's what I'm interested in. And that was a fascination that I had.
01:05:09
A person that is... A female stalker is a fascinating concept that almost never happens.
01:05:15
I like that we can do this because sometimes I'll find these crazy stories and be like,
01:05:18
but there's no murder. But like, fuck, it's fucked up. Right. I think we should talk about those.
01:05:23
Maybe we should change the fucking title of the podcast. Yeah. Let's change this whole concept.
01:05:28
We really painted ourselves into a corner. Let's, Stephen, erase what we've done so far.
01:05:33
Where's the past 45 episodes? So this is what I did and this will just be the fasty
01:05:38
because this is actually super fast. So it's equally fascinating, but it's almost like
01:05:42
an inverted opposite. It's a shorty. Okay. And it's the story of the insane serial killer,
01:05:49
Israel Keys. He's the guy. He's... Did you ever see that that movie The Minus Man starring what is named Owen Wilson And it basically a guy that just
01:06:06
kind of goes around, really nice, chill guy, traveling from town to town, killing people
01:06:12
randomly and leaving town. That's basically, so Israel Keyes, they don't know that much about him.
01:06:19
And he killed people from 2001 to 2012. What the fuck? And he went, literally, he worked as a contractor in Alaska.
01:06:37
And he would take that money. And then he also would rob banks. And he would take all that money and he would buy plane tickets
01:06:44
so that he could go to random cities, rent cars and go murder somebody. And they wouldn't be connected.
01:06:52
Nothing would be connected. And then they would just go to a different city. Fuck.
01:06:56
It's so fucking crazy. And so it's almost like it doesn't even scare me because it's beyond, like it's just beyond.
01:07:06
It's almost like he was, he has a look like you can see his mugshot online and he looks like a dude
01:07:14
that would be in like a North Face catalog. Like he's young and kind of cute and he looks very like sporty.
01:07:23
Like a little weather worn, but like in a hot fucking rugged way. Yes. Like he looks like a guy
01:07:28
that would be on a hiking trail. Like one of the ages of the sexiest man alive in the Dos Equis commercials
01:07:33
when he's like 30 something. Am I getting this right? Yes. Okay. So the sexiest man alive is into camping.
01:07:41
This is this guy. Oh, also, and murder. And he would do that. He would go to remote places.
01:07:50
So he would go to hiking trails. He would go to like- National fucking parks. It's the national park.
01:07:57
This is the national park guy. So he would go into these places and then just like,
01:08:04
just steal one person. It's easy. Yes. Easy. And take them, torture, rape, murder, whatever.
01:08:12
bury their body somewhere and then just move on. And he would pre-plan it. So he had, okay.
01:08:19
So I'll just read you what I have. So, and I got a lot of this from this awesome,
01:08:25
it's just an FBI press release where they just said, here's everything we know. If you know anything, please call us.
01:08:33
So they're so, because when they finally arrested him, they arrested him. They got him to talk
01:08:40
a little bit and then he committed suicide in jail. Fucking dick. So they knew, they know for a fact
01:08:47
that he killed 11 people for sure. They can like patch it all back. It's never that.
01:08:52
It's so many more because the amount of planning that went into these things is super crazy
01:08:59
because he would bury caches all around the country. So they were basically like
01:09:05
kill kits with money in them. What? So they- Oh, so he could go there and be like,
01:09:10
here's my kill kit. Yep. But he wouldn't be traveling with it. Right. So if a cop pulled him over
01:09:15
and he had a rental car and he was in Arizona, the cop would be like, oh, it's a dude in a rental car.
01:09:21
You're speeding. Knock it off. At no time was there like, what's that duffel bag?
01:09:26
I mean, if you're going to be that fucking, like, what's the word? Organized and dedicated.
01:09:31
Dedicated. Like, just be a fucking coder or something. Like, get a job. Like, be a normal.
01:09:37
I know. Why do you have to dedicate that to fucking killing people? Don't be a dick.
01:09:43
Why you gotta be bad? Yeah. He's gotta be bad. This guy said apparently when he got out of the army.
01:09:51
So he was like, he got kicked out of the house when he was 17. And his parents who used to be Amish and then joined some weird,
01:10:00
one of the articles said it was like a cultish church in Wells, Texas. Oh, like the Amish?
01:10:05
like similar to the Amish cult. Yeah, but they like build nice things and they like, you know, they have that.
01:10:13
Have you ever seen that area, that space heater that they make? No. It's really nice.
01:10:18
Come on. Well, anyway, he got kicked out of the house and his parents told his siblings,
01:10:25
you're not allowed to talk to him anymore, which I want to know what the hell happened.
01:10:29
But they don't know. Molested everyone. Like everyone in town. Or he was just like super rude at Thanksgiving.
01:10:35
one of the two but so he told the FBI that he had buried some of those caches so sorry
01:10:43
I was going to say he went into the army for a while he got dismembered disbarred
01:10:51
from the army dishonorably discharged discharged that's right and dishonorably no
01:10:58
he just regularly discharged but he told people that he was in the army with I can't wait to get out of the army
01:11:04
so I can kill a bunch of people Cool. Super chill. Super like, oh, do you want to go get a beer later?
01:11:10
Okay, no, that's cool because you want to go kill people. Oh, that Israel. Always joking around.
01:11:16
You know, that guy Israel. So apparently he has these caches buried in... The FBI actually went and found...
01:11:28
There was one in Eagle River, Alaska, and there was one near Blake Falls Reservoir in New York.
01:11:32
and then they also oh he admitted to burying them in Green River, Wyoming and this is why I have a metal detector
01:11:43
right and Port Angeles, Washington okay we're doing tours there all those places
01:11:51
go find a cache that'd actually be like a new geocaching but you're actually trying to find
01:11:57
Israel Key's caches with geocaching Yeah. He didn't know any of his victims prior to their abductions.
01:12:05
He described several remote locations that he frequented to look for them, parks, campgrounds, trailheads, cemeteries, boating areas.
01:12:14
And he frequented prostitutes during his travels. Sex workers. Sorry, sex workers.
01:12:19
And it is unknown at this time if he met any of his victims in this manner, of course, because they don't really know who the victims are.
01:12:27
Jesus. and he indicated to the FBI that his victims are male and female and age from teens to elderly
01:12:34
that see when they're when they get that fucking non-specific they're fucking out of there like that's crazier right
01:12:42
he wants to kill everybody he just wants to kill people he just wants to kill everybody
01:12:46
okay so his murders occurred in less than 10 states but he didn't tell them all the locations
01:12:54
so basically he just was doing he was kidnapping people in one state and taking them across state lines
01:13:02
intentionally to kill them in a different state. Because then they wouldn't be missing people
01:13:07
they wouldn't be connected to the missing people. That's right. So they find a body in Kansas
01:13:10
and they don't know anything because the person is missing from whatever state is next to Kansas how would I know?
01:13:19
I only have like a seventh grade education. We are the best fucking podcasters that I've ever podcasted.
01:13:26
It's for real. Oh, also it says here he would kidnap them in one state, murder them in a second state,
01:13:32
dispose of their body in a third state. Why that middle man? Because he just wants to keep it clean
01:13:38
because he wants to be able to keep doing it no matter what, which he did for years.
01:13:43
And how? Oh no, keep going. Sorry. I'm not trying to lead you along. He also burglarized 20 to 30 homes
01:13:50
and he committed arson to cover up the homicides. So it's just everything. He's just throwing it all.
01:13:59
It's a casserole of bad things. Okay. He starts in 1997. His first victim was a girl who was inner tubing down the Deschutes River in Oregon.
01:14:14
And Stephen knows where that is. Oh, my mom lives in Bend right now. Oh, so that's on.
01:14:20
Is that on the Deschutes? Yeah, we don't know. Yeah. It's a girl between 14 and 18 years old who was tubing.
01:14:27
He takes her off of her inner tube, pulls her into the woods, sexually assaults her,
01:14:34
puts her back on the inner tube, puts her on. And she never reported it. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
01:14:42
So the only reason they even know this happened is because he told them it happened.
01:14:46
You think, you know what? You know one of the safest places I would think are on an inner tube in the middle of a fucking lake.
01:14:52
With your friends. With your friends. And he, oh my God. Oh, there's the word discharged.
01:14:59
In 2001, he was discharged from the US Army. Then from 2001, July to October, he resided in Neah Bay, Washington.
01:15:08
And there he committed his first homicide, but they don't know who or where he killed.
01:15:15
He just said that's where he did it. Wow. From 2001 to 2005, he murdered, this is all him telling the FBI, he murdered an unidentified couple in Washington.
01:15:26
He refused to tell them if the couple was married, what their relationship to one another was.
01:15:30
So it's actually not a couple, it's just two people. This makes me so sad. And they don't know if they were residents of Washington's tourist or residents he abducted from another state and brought over.
01:15:42
I don't know why it's like worse for me when they're unidentified because it's just like, you just know that there are so many people suffering and wondering and waiting and that don't have answers.
01:15:54
Yeah. I mean, it's devastating when you do, but at least you're able to contend with it.
01:15:59
You're dealing with facts and instead of any possible thing. So it's like he really did want as many people to suffer as possible.
01:16:06
That's awful. 2005 to 2006 in the summer to fall months he admitted he committed two murders
01:16:14
independent of one another he used his boat to dispose of the bodies of these victims and he stated
01:16:20
that at least one of the bodies was disposed of in Crescent Lake in Washington where he used anchors to submerge
01:16:26
the body and he said it was submerged in more than 100 feet of water and that he moved their cars
01:16:35
a distance between where the vehicles were found and where the crime occurred. And he didn't say who the people were.
01:16:44
So basically, it sounds like when the FBI is interviewing him, he's just kind of giving them the very most basic things.
01:16:51
That might even not be true. Right. And now you go run and try to figure this out.
01:16:56
Good luck with that. So then he drives from Washington State to Anchorage, Alaska,
01:17:02
where he lives until his arrest. So from 2007 till 2012. How did he get arrested?
01:17:11
It's at the bottom of this list. Look, I'm going to be honest. It's at the bottom of this list.
01:17:16
Okay, go on. Oh, I know what it is. It's he murdered an old couple in Vermont and it got a bunch of press.
01:17:25
And it was another one of his super random things. Oh no, I'm sorry. That got, they were like in the press a bunch.
01:17:34
but then he stole the ATM card of one of his victims. And then when he went to his sister's wedding in Wells, Texas,
01:17:40
he started using the ATM. And they got onto this stolen ATM cards being used and they got him there.
01:17:48
What a fucking rookie move. But it also sounds like after this much time, like 11 years of just constant random murders he like catch me Or he like I can do this anymore might have been a part of him that just like I don want to do this anymore Because even something great and fun after 12 years
01:18:08
you're like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's not going to worry.
01:18:15
So then it just basically, the rest of this fucking thing is a list of cities and like very vague crimes and people.
01:18:26
Oh, that they can't. And when I was reading it and it goes on and on and there's a Reddit thread that the person is like
01:18:34
updated on this date in green, updated on this date in purple. So they just keep on finding details.
01:18:41
And it literally is, he bought a Southwest ticket from Anchorage, Alaska to San Diego.
01:18:49
He walked on foot into Tijuana. He was there for two days, walked on foot back, took a Southwest flight to Tempe, Arizona.
01:18:59
And it's this stuff where you're just like- Well, if he has this pattern, like with the intertubing girl
01:19:03
of just grabbing them and dragging them to the woods, it's not like, oh, you know, the person who disappeared,
01:19:08
we saw her talking to a, you know, shaggy haired dude in a bar. It's not like she's like, he's taking them home.
01:19:15
Right. Like, you know, pretending to have a relationship with them. he's fucking dragging.
01:19:19
Like there's no connection. You're right. They never saw this person before. They probably never saw him coming.
01:19:26
Like it's a place where people wouldn't be. Like if it's a trailhead. Snatched. And then he's there and gone.
01:19:33
Yeah. Also in the list as I'm reading it, he was in Santa Rosa, which is the town above Petaluma.
01:19:40
Oh my God. There's a whole part where he's in Napa Valley. He went on like a whole-
01:19:45
He had like a wine tour. On a wine tour. Oh honey. up in Northern California. And the whole thing is like that where I just, I started thinking about
01:19:52
that where I got super scared. I saw he flew into the Oakland airport. He rented a car. He drove up
01:19:58
to Napa. Then he stayed for like one night in one of those whiny hotels. Then he drove to Santa Rosa
01:20:05
where, and I'm looking at the years like, my God, what year? And was there anybody missing? And do
01:20:10
we know? Yeah, totally. And, but then as I read the rest of the list, it's like, and you could do
01:20:14
that with every location across America. But I wonder if he did. No, no, he did.
01:20:21
But why can't we find them? Find what? The people that are dead. Because they don't even know. It's like there's the missing persons for say Tempe, Arizona in 2007.
01:20:32
He did it all. Well, they don't know. He could have done one. He could have done them all. He
01:20:36
could have just gone there, drank wine in Napa and left. He's that like, and whatever he was doing,
01:20:43
he had his cash thing he never nobody ever saw him he didn't go somewhere to buy a knife
01:20:50
he had money if something happened and they were like he ran out of money he would have a cash nearby
01:20:57
where there was like bills waiting buried underground he's the fucking best boy scout
01:21:04
in the world who's also a fucking dick if a boy scout went fucking nuts just like
01:21:11
had to rub that stick to try to make that fire and just snapped and was like, you know what? I'm going to be the devil
01:21:18
walking on earth for 11 years. And it's just, it's so random that that's the other thing I
01:21:25
realized that this sucks because there's no specific storyline or even like anybody,
01:21:34
because it's all just like, and then he probably killed one random person. Like he's the one that
01:21:39
there was, I don't know if you ever heard about that. There were the two kids that were spending
01:21:43
the night on the beach in San Francisco. They just got shot. I almost did that one, but it's just
01:21:49
such a weird. They think it's him. Totally was him. They do think that it's him because it's the
01:21:54
kind of thing where when that murder came out. There's no connection. It makes no fucking sense.
01:21:59
There's nothing left behind. They're Christian camp kids who are like trying to just have a camp
01:22:05
out one night on the beach for fun and they both get shot in the head execution style,
01:22:10
but there's no way they have anything attached to like a drug dealer or there's no reason.
01:22:15
None. And he's the guy that's the no reason murderer. Because that doesn't make any... There should be a pattern to killers, you know?
01:22:25
Exactly. And if you don't have one, then you're probably less likely to get caught.
01:22:30
Right. Fuck. It's so crazy. It's so crazy. And also it goes on and on. And then at the end of this thing,
01:22:37
there's a whole chunk called additional murders. And so it's like he gave additional details
01:22:45
regarding the abduction and the murder of a female described as having pale skin,
01:22:50
possibly having a wealthy grandmother, driving an older car. That's you. Oh my God.
01:22:56
It's that there's just a bunch of that shit. What a controlling shit thing to do.
01:23:01
And then you're like, you know how I'm going to get out of this? kill myself. Yeah. Because I'm sure that the interviewers were like, okay. We're starting to
01:23:10
get some stuff. We're starting this up. We're asking him these questions. We're going to bring
01:23:13
him Billy Bob. He's fucking gory to getting shit out of people. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. We're
01:23:18
going to do this and we're going to start really putting some of the stuff together. And with the
01:23:21
information he's giving them, he's saying, I can tell you everywhere I was. I can give you all
01:23:28
these details and then, but bye. I'm not actually going to. What a controlling...
01:23:36
Insane. So if you, to me, this is like built for web sleuths. It's so perfect. But I mean,
01:23:45
it just goes on and on. But if you go on there and you see if you know of a missing person or
01:23:51
some kind of murder case it a really good comparison I guess chart because you have the years and you do have vague descriptions You can they say if you have information you can call the FBI at 1
01:24:06
No, it isn't. Yeah. That's not enough. 1-800, that's not enough. C-A-L, that's three.
01:24:13
L-F-B-I, that's four. Fuck. They're not going to give you not enough numbers. But what is wrong with my brain?
01:24:22
That I, that call was like, that's three letters. I love it but you're the one that's gonna figure that out
01:24:27
you're like you know what the FBI is fucking us over right now that doesn't lead anywhere
01:24:33
that's not enough it's another mystery oh my god what a fucking idiot like I what is wrong with my
01:24:41
you know what this naturopath is gonna fucking hear me because clearly I got some issues
01:24:47
so that's I feel like the Israel Keys case is one where basically what I'm saying is
01:24:54
go look up the name Israel Keys because it'll freak your shit out. Yeah. But there's not,
01:25:00
I'm sure there's plenty more to say and we'll hear about all of it. But that's as much as I,
01:25:06
I mean, like. That's ridiculous. Because you do certain things, like as someone who's very aware
01:25:11
of that murders happen and, you know, I do certain things like when I use my credit card
01:25:15
at a fucking, what are they called? A meter. Yeah. A parking meter. I'm like, here's a,
01:25:22
this is another trace as to where I was that day. in case something happens, you know,
01:25:25
or like I go into a liquor store and the camera's here. It'll show me going to the liquor store that day.
01:25:30
But it's like, if that's not, if you can't track someone else having followed you
01:25:34
or like between this parking meter and something else, like if there's just snatch and fucking grab.
01:25:40
Well, yeah, because he's not going to grab you at a parking meter or in a liquor store.
01:25:43
No. He's going to grab the person that decided to go on a nice nature walk by themselves.
01:25:48
Don't do it, you guys. Why would you do that? Not even by yourself, with someone else even.
01:25:54
Which you think you're safe. Go in packs of five. With knives. With fucking Rottweilers.
01:26:01
With knives taped to your hands. And knives taped to your Rottweilers. And then just tons of guns.
01:26:05
And just start shooting at any sound you hear. Anyone who fucking approaches you.
01:26:09
Shoot them. Shoot them. Disclaimer, we're fucking joking. You can't sue us if this happens.
01:26:14
Yes, we're joking. We're not liable. So that's my super unsatisfying actual murder case of Israel Keyes.
01:26:26
That's good. Okay, thanks. I did too. Sorry. The one night you're like, can I get out of here early?
01:26:32
And I'm like, you know what I'm going to do? Give you two. What a dick. No, we're good on time.
01:26:37
I'm checking the time. I mean, we're not, but let's just, I don't want, this is more important to me.
01:26:43
I'm sorry, public school at the Virgil, but this is more important. What a great show.
01:26:47
Please go to public school at the Virgil once a month. Public school at the Virgil.
01:26:51
It's not as important as my favorite. Oh my God. No, I'm kidding. It's such a good shit.
01:26:55
That's a joke. Okay. Should we each say one thing that we like or that makes us happy?
01:27:02
One thing that made us happy in the past week? Yeah. Okay. Do you want me to go first?
01:27:06
Because I have one. Oh, you do have one. Okay. It is, I've been listening to You Must Remember This, the podcast by Karina Longworth.
01:27:14
and I'm so obsessed with it. I started, somebody recommended to me the Manson series.
01:27:21
It's super good. It's Manson's Hollywood, I think it's called. And it's like a six part series.
01:27:26
But she, I mean, talk about research. Talk about a person who cares. Polar opposite.
01:27:33
I mean, if you hate us, this is the podcast for you. You haven't made it to the end,
01:27:39
but it is, she's... You're spite listening right now. Yeah. And congratulations, because here's the payoff. It's the kind of thing where I didn't think I was
01:27:49
that interested in old time Hollywood. And it is fascinating. It's gossipy. It's kind of dirty.
01:27:55
There's all these things where you're like, I had no idea that happened. And it's beautifully done.
01:28:01
And so yeah, I highly recommend that. That's great. I was going to say, no, you know what I'm going to say? So I found a new author. It's like a true crime. No, no, no.
01:28:11
It's a fictional author. I'm listening to her audio books and it's like crime and it's fucked up
01:28:17
and it's fucking like a British procedural. So I don't know why I didn't know that I was into this.
01:28:22
So I'm listening. You're fighting it. Yeah, but I like listening to it on an audio book.
01:28:25
So it's called Blacklands, the one I'm listening to right now by Belinda Bauer, B-A-U-E-R.
01:28:30
It's fucked. Like this is, she's, it's, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, because it's not.
01:28:36
Yeah. It's totally. Absolutely. I mean, it is, but it's not. Yeah. And it's not trying to be.
01:28:40
No, it just is. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. That's awesome. Yeah. What do we want to...
01:28:46
Our website is up and I should have a shows page that has all our shows on it. So you'll be able to track it there.
01:28:52
Yeah. All that information we tried to give you at the beginning, or we did give you at the beginning,
01:28:56
you can have in like a way to reference. The website is called... And I'm trying to think of something like super, like really dumb and funny that it would be,
01:29:04
but it's not. It's just my favorite murder. Oh, you mean like... Oh, the fuckword murder mystery show.
01:29:11
Oh, yeah. That would be cool. Sorry. There's too much talking.org. Something like that.
01:29:19
Skipper. Skippers. Skippers unite. You guys, thanks for uniting with us. Yes. And listening.
01:29:28
We fucking, you guys are the ones. You guys are the ones. You're the one for me.
01:29:32
And the people who are for us. and like we truly, truly, truly, truly, truly. Thanks for listening.
01:29:42
No, stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? Good boy. Bye. Bye.
01:29:53
He did that right on cue He did that on cue He waiting Good boy He been waiting Yeah he has Him fucking tearing shit up is him saying fuck what the fuck Where the cookie Yeah he doesn do that because Vince always gives him cookies
01:30:10
And we're back. Karen, any updates on any of this? Yes, there are. Yeah. There's so many unanswered questions, of course, about Israel Keyes, how many victims he has, where those victims are,
01:30:23
how many states he hit. I mean, he was truly like going out there trying to be uncatchable.
01:30:30
And because of that, he was. In 2020, the FBI released images of skulls that had been
01:30:38
drawn by Israel Keyes with his own blood. They were found under his bed in his jail cell
01:30:44
in a 48-hour special. FBI Special Agent Jolene Godin explained, quote, He drew a series of 11 skulls, and one of them says, we are one.
01:30:54
We believe that 11 is the total number of victims. So you can look that up. Obviously, many true crime fans probably have already read it.
01:31:03
So the confirmed victims of Israel Keys are Bill and Lorraine Currier, that couple from Vermont, Samantha Koening of Anchorage, Alaska.
01:31:12
And that was Samantha Koening's ATM card that Israel Keys was using when he got caught in Texas.
01:31:19
Right. And we have talked about Josh Hallmark's podcast, True Crime Bullshit, a lot.
01:31:24
But that was also in my re-approach to doing this story, which is so gigantic. I started listening to this podcast.
01:31:30
It's really incredible. I really love it. Josh Hallmark is such a great podcast host, and he's so serious about really trying to find bodies, victims,
01:31:41
and trying to clear missing persons cases from years back. It's such incredible work that he has been doing for the past decade.
01:31:49
Hallmark says no murder kits have been found since Key's death in 2012, but over 70 topographical maps of various areas of the country were found on Key's computer by the FBI.
01:32:00
And so Josh thinks that these maps will help the FBI and others locate more murder kits, cash or bodies that have been hidden, essentially.
01:32:09
Can you imagine if they have been found, those kits, and like someone didn't know what they were and just...
01:32:14
Just threw them away? Yeah. you're just like walking through the forest and you kick a couple pine sprigs over and then there's just a duffel bag filled with a very overt murder kit.
01:32:26
Call the police, people, please. Please call the police. And also don't remember if you have any information about any.
01:32:32
Don't remember? Anything. You can call the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI, which Georgia doesn't think is a real phone number.
01:32:40
Because she said there's not enough numbers. 1-800-CALL-FBI is so funny. So that's just the top scratching the surface of Israel keys.
01:32:51
Wow. All right, skippers. You made it to the end. Don't skip this part. It's really important.
01:32:56
It's about you. It's about you because we're going to take the pressure off you. And if we were to name this
01:33:01
episode something aside from skipping the skippers. Well, we could name it after Georgia's joke about Stephen giving me that Diet Coke tall boy
01:33:12
and the title would be Steven's Your New Mommy. It's pretty comforting. Let's see.
01:33:18
Pond of Shame. I like that one about what you said about the show's success. Going to a naturopath
01:33:25
or walking down a natural path to a pond of shame. Where were we? What were we doing?
01:33:32
How much whiskey had I had? And also like what, you know, you skipped that. Yeah.
01:33:37
That magic back and forth between you and I. You're going to miss all the fucking hollandaise sauce that we dump on ourselves like don't do it unless you have high
01:33:46
cholesterol don't do it truly and there's parsley on top of it anyway so you get your greens yeah
01:33:51
it'll clear you right out fine how about uh yeah you do this the casserole of bad things that's
01:33:58
of course talking about israel keys crimes but also so many things these days just a casserole
01:34:04
bad things that's true some crunchy like topping on there yeah those fried onions oh yeah yeah
01:34:11
All right. Well, thanks, skippers. Thanks, skippers. And non-skippers alike. More thanks to the non-skippers. You're really in there with us for this one, especially.
01:34:20
Yeah. And stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
01:34:32
Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
01:34:38
With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.
01:34:44
You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder. Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.
01:34:52
Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.
01:34:58
Goodbye. Clothes shopping, not as easy or fun as it sounds. You just want to feel confident in your clothes.
01:35:05
You can spend hours scrolling, zooming in, reading reviews, only to end up with a cart full of nothing that feels or fits right and a bunch of returns to do.
01:35:13
Stitch Fix makes it so much easier. A personal stylist sends pieces that match your size, style, and everything's in your budget.
01:35:19
No guesswork, no stress, and your guaranteed compliments. Here's how Stitch Fix works.
01:35:24
Take a quick style quiz, share your size, style, and budget, and get matched with a real human stylist who gets your vibe.
01:35:30
It's no risk, all style. Get a personalized fix box straight to your door. And try it all on in the comfort of your home.
01:35:37
Shipping and returns are always free and there's no subscription required. Plus, get a free try-on for your first fix.
01:35:43
Get started today at stitchfix.com slash murder to get $20 off your first order.
01:35:48
That's stitchfix.com slash murder. Goodbye. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
01:35:57
The future soccer stars who are already turning headspace. Because Next doesn't wait for an invitation.
01:36:03
And Hyundai doesn't either. Hyundai has always moved the future within reach. Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle.
01:36:09
And by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability. And Hyundai continues doing it every day because the future isn't some far-off concept.
01:36:17
It's already here. Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye.