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00:01:35
Hello! And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right. Because it's Wednesday, it's Rewind.
00:01:48
And today we're recapping episode 49. At the time, we named it The Great Guy Law Time New Year Spectacular.
00:01:56
I like it. It should be a little longer. So this episode came out December 28th, 2016.
00:02:03
That's the day your holiday trip to visit your parents should end, but you always stay two extra days.
00:02:09
And let's listen to the intro of episode 49. You're going to do something. Don't half-ass it.
00:02:19
Speaking of which, this is my favorite murder. did you get that steven are we recording the show oh my god oh my god welcome to my favorite murder
00:02:31
end of 2016 episode this is the end of this fucking shit hole of a year now if you had a
00:02:38
great year congratulations how did you do it press stop and go have fun with your and go fuck yourself
00:02:47
our new musical yeah oh my god speaking of did you hear the song that a techno song that a dude
00:02:56
made what of our pod you haven't heard this no oh my god of our podcast hold okay wait hold on
00:03:03
i feel so such guilt for the amount of things people do and make and whatever that i'm always
00:03:09
like oh i missed that three months ago well you're gonna die because this is the best thing that's
00:03:13
ever happen. Are you ready for this? Yes. Y'all ready for this? This is from Alex, Alex J. Squire
00:03:22
on Twitter. Oh, that name sounds familiar to me. And it's not working. Why isn't it working?
00:03:28
There's just a photo of his cat and you press play. This isn't fucking in. Okay.
00:03:43
This is a Chicago Live episode. Oh. Fucking John Wayne. Oh my God. What did you do next?
00:03:54
Fucking John Wayne. Can you hear it? Oh. What? Fucking John Wayne. Oh my God. I can't believe you missed that one.
00:04:06
I can't stop smiling. No. That's. That's you saying who. That's announcing. You announcing the Chicago Live show.
00:04:13
who you're doing and I and you go and I go yeah it just goes and goes like that that is thank you
00:04:21
Alex J Squire oh my god talented motherfucker are you friends with Diplo because that was
00:04:28
incredible it's the new hit um you're hearing a very familiar laugh we can't ignore it
00:04:33
noticed a lot of you know and love that's right we actually have in our wrap down 2016 holiday
00:04:40
spectacular anything goes and who the fuck knows uh our friend and our guest mr guy brandon hello
00:04:48
good to be here so excited i want that track so bad i have i have a dance track from the 80s it
00:04:54
is margaret thatcher speeches no uh an acid dance song no oh my god i love this so much you guys are
00:05:03
also astoundingly lucky with your fandom oh for fuck's sake like you're like you're people say it
00:05:09
And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. But like, it's crazy. It's weird. It's crazy.
00:05:14
The extent to which their response to all of this is, she just described a brutal murder.
00:05:18
I need to make this a project. Yes. Well, actually, I have something to surprise you with, Karen.
00:05:24
What more? Yes. Because you know me hearing my voice with techno music behind it is like,
00:05:28
that made 2017 for me. Totally. So I mean, this year's a fucking bus, but you can carry it on to next year.
00:05:34
That's right. Okay. So I got a package in my P.O. box and it just said it was to me.
00:05:39
So I opened it and I'm sorry. And I got this letter that made me cry, like literally almost made me cry.
00:05:45
I was really depressed today. And then I read it and it made me feel better. It's basically this girl who's like, thank you guys so much.
00:05:50
I went to a Chicago show. I also told my mom now secretly listens to the podcast and she a she lives in Alabama and she a quote rich white Republican Southern Baptist mother and is a closet fan and she can tell anyone about it Yes What her
00:06:09
name? When the girl found out that we were doing Chicago again she said I immediately bought my mom
00:06:12
plane ticket to Chicago to go. Her name is Chelsea. Why? And look what she gave us. Open this.
00:06:19
well here oh shit she works at a company she works at like a beauty product company and she
00:06:25
sent us a whole line of sweet honesty no oh my god oh my god is this the original or is this how
00:06:34
they market it i think it's still around there's sweet honesty from the live show but it looks so
00:06:39
70s i know but it's on sweet honesty yeah no was that a real thing was it a real yeah it's real
00:06:45
That's why that girl had the... It was a thing. She had basically... It was like, you know,
00:06:49
Love's Baby soft perfume from the 70s. Like, if you had a t-shirt of that, this was Avon's version,
00:06:54
which was Sweet Honesty. Let me see if I can find her Twitter so I can get her. Oh, my God.
00:07:00
And one of these looks like... Oh, my God. Wait, this is what they sell now because this looks like...
00:07:04
It's like a roll-on deodorant. Yes, no. Old deodorant. It looks like deodorant from the 70s.
00:07:09
This is... I mean... This is the podcast that made me try to figure out how my mom could listen to podcasts.
00:07:17
She loves true crime so much. We got to get Debbie on board. Debbie? We got to get Debbie on board.
00:07:22
I don't know how we're going to do it. Remember when you got to buy your parents an iPod
00:07:26
to get them like and download a bunch of fucking shit for them to listen to it? She put it in a drawer.
00:07:31
She put it in a drawer. I honestly feel like I need to go greatest hits and burn some CDs for her.
00:07:36
I think you should. That's the way to go. CDs is easier. It's not a lot of having to touch things
00:07:41
and plug things in. Yeah. Please burn some CDs for Debbie. Do it. At the same time, though, my dad figured out how to listen to podcasts, and that was a mistake.
00:07:49
I'm trying to find Chelsea's Twitter because I want to give her a thing. Hi, Marty.
00:07:52
Hi, Marty. My dad figured out how to listen to podcasts and then decided this one wasn't for him.
00:07:57
Oh, my God. So listen, it's okay. He's more of a nerdist guy. Like, I just want to listen to men talk.
00:08:08
I love it. Yeah, women are so boring. Can I spray some sweet honesty? God, yes. You gotta huff it, actually.
00:08:18
My grandma's Avon lady showing up was one of the most exciting things that could happen.
00:08:23
Avon ladies were the... It just makes me think of Edward Scissorhands. Yeah, right?
00:08:27
That was a real thing. I remember doing... It wasn't Avon, but there was another one that was like that.
00:08:35
Or maybe it was Avon. We went to a party of it at my aunt Jean's house one time,
00:08:39
And the way this lady was explaining how you had to buy all of this product, because if you used a bunch of different brands on your face together, it was like chemical warfare on your face.
00:08:50
That's the biggest bullshit I've ever heard in my life. I was 12 years old sitting at the table going, bullshit.
00:08:55
Or everyone would have their face burned by now. 12-year-old Karen was like, I just call you out on your shit.
00:09:02
I think it's amazing salesmanship. It's smart. It's smart wording. It was very effective.
00:09:06
It wasn't Jafra, but it was like one of those brands where it was kind of like, it's a freestanding beauty, you know, kind of slightly pyramid scheme.
00:09:17
A number of women from my high school who've ended up in multi-level marketing of beauty projects.
00:09:22
Yeah. Okay. Her name is Chelsea Young and she's on Twitter as Chelsea and then L-E-E-A-U.
00:09:29
And she's a fucking, she's from Naperville. Naperville, Illinois? Yeah. She's a sweetheart.
00:09:34
That's where Bargo Odenkirk's from. Oh. Oh my God. Is it horrible? No, no, it's good.
00:09:39
Let me smell it. But I just literally inhaled it. She said at the... Oh, that's like baby powdery.
00:09:44
It's powder. It smells like baby powder. It smells like a diaper. Let's be honest.
00:09:48
It's adorable 15 year olds. It smells like a teenage baby. Which is what everybody wants.
00:09:54
Which is what men are attracted to. Normal heterosexual men are attracted to. And she also said that during the live show,
00:10:03
her friend that they were with had to go outside. She was sick with the flu, had to go outside and barf in the parking lot, but came back in and fucking stuck it out.
00:10:09
Yes. Like she was like, we were fucking. And she sent me a photo of her, of them.
00:10:13
Was she sick with the flu of Budweiser Tallboys? Because I've had that same sickness several times in my life.
00:10:22
Okay. Guy is going to law us up. Oh, yeah. That's what we brought you here on those pretenses.
00:10:30
That's right. So, like, you guys talk about law things a lot. Like, you talk about murder.
00:10:36
You talk about murder. We talk about them with a lot of confidence, even though we fucking don't know anything.
00:10:40
It's true. There's a lot of theorizing. Open up. Do you guys have any idea what the difference between a first and second degree murder is?
00:10:47
Intent? One. Oh. Okay. One. I don't do Roman numerals. I'm sorry. You're right that it is intent level.
00:10:57
It is basically, so like first degree murder requires premeditation. Right. But that isn't really planning.
00:11:03
That's mostly just like being in a right enough mind to be like, even for a moment, like I want to kill this person.
00:11:10
And then doing it like immediately after. Yeah. I mean, you do need to like both have the mens rea and the act happen.
00:11:18
Sir, what's that? At the same time. I don't know that word. That's a state of mind.
00:11:21
Intentous state of mind. Oh, I thought mens rea was your period. It does sound like a real nasty period.
00:11:28
So second degree murder is horrible. Second degree murder is either A, like your passions were raised by,
00:11:38
and like the paradigm is you see your wife fucking somebody else, and you either kill him or her, or like.
00:11:49
In the moment. In the moment. in the moment or like you, you like somebody starts a fight with you and they don use deadly force Oh You are trying to defend yourself And escalate So you and you kill them Those are secondary murder things
00:12:05
But secondary murder is used for like the worst things. Like that dude on Ellen or not on Ellen.
00:12:11
What was the? Jenny Jones. Jenny Jones. We did that one. Yeah. Yes. Or the guy who killed Harvey Milk.
00:12:19
I almost. Dan Brown. Don't talk about it. I almost did that one. Oh, okay. No, I'm going to talk about it.
00:12:24
It's really good, but he basically said, like, I was so freaked out by being around gay people and I'd eaten so many twinkies that I wasn't in a right state of mind.
00:12:33
And so, like, okay, he got fired and he got pissed off and came back. So isn't that premeditation, though?
00:12:39
I mean, it all depends on what the jury believes. And the thing is, is like the jury is so willing when it comes to like a gay guy hit on me and then I killed him.
00:12:50
Right. Means you're doing six years instead of like I decided to kill some gay guy, which is like 15 to life.
00:12:58
Wow. You know, if they can if they can empathize with you. Yes. You're better. And so like like second degree murder is this terrible situation where like it's completely screwed over for women because in the like 70s they tried to sell this idea of battered wife syndrome.
00:13:16
The thing is, is that like burning bed, burning bed. Yeah. What's that? I don't know that.
00:13:19
The Farrah Fawcett made for TV movie called Burning Bed. Based on a real story. Based on a real story.
00:13:25
This woman was so terribly abused. I remember watching it with my mom. And at one point, I mean, they it was incredibly graphic of basically showing what domestic violence really looks like.
00:13:34
And it's incredibly intense. But it was on at like eight o'clock at night on ABC or whatever.
00:13:39
And I remember at one point my mom goes, I think you should go to bed. But you didn't. No, of course not. I was just like out of my way, lady, like standing closer to the TV.
00:13:48
But it was basically to try to show people this whole thing of like, yeah, knock your wife around and shut her up.
00:13:53
It's because you, it's like, in my mind, when I was a kid, it was like, it's romantic.
00:13:56
It's because he loves you so much and it's so passionate and you guys just have this intense relationship.
00:14:00
And then you see the reality of it and you're like, this is just brutal fucking bullying and awfulness.
00:14:06
Cracking someone across the mouth because she's lippy is not a fun thing to say to your friends in the bar when actually it's a horrible pattern because you were abused.
00:14:15
and once it starts it can't stop because you're in this like in a rage fit and you beat a person
00:14:22
up like they're a man and then if you're you're when you're older and you're in a good relationship
00:14:26
and the thought of like vince when we get in a fight which happens him just fucking smacking me
00:14:31
because i he got like that would be that would change my world and the fact that this is a normal
00:14:36
thing for people bothers me so much but the thing is what's so fascinating is that like really quick
00:14:41
yes so so at night she burnt his bed while he was in it then she got off right when she went
00:14:48
that's a horrible way to die well the thing is like the how we learned it from law school like
00:14:53
basically is um the terrible thing is for like second degree murder it is generally a dude
00:14:59
grabbing a gun right there or it has to be sort of like within the same window of time that his
00:15:03
second degree murder sort of like act of passion happens but women who've been beaten don't do that
00:15:10
They stew and then three weeks later they... For three years. And they just finally break and shoot him or burn the bed or whatever.
00:15:22
And so uniformly, battered wife syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing. It's almost like, I feel like it's even worse because they're going through years and years of constant torture
00:15:37
and having their minds fucked with because they never know how someone's going to react.
00:15:42
And so they're not even in their right mind when they're planning it beforehand.
00:15:47
The thing that's so creepy about all of this is that so many of these ideas were built in the 1600s in England
00:15:53
when things that were very immediate we understood, but the notion of sort of like a long simmering psychological torture,
00:16:01
nobody understood because they all died when they were 34. And also that men so had the mic that it was like, well, they would have to understand how a woman would interpret abuse and and approach it as opposed to how it would feel or how they would react to it, which they would be like, well, that's not how it's done, as opposed to that's not how maybe men do it or how to the individual.
00:16:23
It was being your wife is legal, like being your wife is in the Bible. Can I say this really quick, just so everyone knows the guy Branham is a lawyer.
00:16:32
The reason that we're having him talking about credentials, we know all this is that you are legally a lawyer.
00:16:38
I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School in 2001. That is amazing.
00:16:41
Which means I am an expert on the law of murder and other things in the same way that Karen and Georgia are experts.
00:16:49
No, no, in a much better way. No, wait, finish that. I haven't done this in 15 years.
00:16:55
So this is basically just what I remember. Oh, good, good, good. But like from that, let's hop on over to murder's best buddy, rape, and understand that like in common law, in sort of like the origin of our entire legal system, it's a horrible construction of this situation where it has to be a violent act.
00:17:21
it has to be against someone other than your wife like um that you know the old school laws and
00:17:28
there have been many laws that try to sort of like update things i hate like that intimidation
00:17:34
you know and a woman going along with things to not get murdered shows that she you know like
00:17:39
she didn't fight so it wasn't really right you know like that kind of thing where
00:17:43
her pants would have been hard to take off so she must have been consenting so basically
00:17:48
one interesting thing that you guys like comes up on the show a lot is in some states you still have rape laws that have been updated But in other states there was this thing in the 50s called the model penal code where they sort of tried to make the law reflect the world that we live in now a little bit more And so that what the difference between like first degree second
00:18:09
degree and third degree sexual assault are. And these are very serious issues. And it's weird to
00:18:15
hear a man talk about them. And I'm sorry. I had the creepiest criminal law professor who was like
00:18:19
a man in his 60s. And he was constantly saying things that you were like, don't say it like that.
00:18:24
Don't stop. He was from before. Can I tell you the two worst of them? Yes, always.
00:18:31
Is this all right? Yes, are you kidding me? We're these our number one fans. There's no rape by swindle.
00:18:40
Which is essentially saying if you promise to pay a prostitute and then at the end you're like, nope, that's not rape.
00:18:48
which is like classic common law in many states have sort of like figured stuff like that out
00:18:55
and then the other one was don't do the voice again I'm sorry I have to for when it
00:19:03
comes to sexual violence and age there comes a point where mental state doesn't matter
00:19:09
if you did it so like basically you can't say but she looked 18 but you cannot say but she
00:19:17
looked 13 which was the most chilling thing to hear i don't understand so wait so you couldn't
00:19:26
say that she looked of age and so you didn't know and so it's not statutory rape the one thing i
00:19:31
should be saying is this man was a leading rape expert like he was this old like 60 more ways than
00:19:37
one 65 year old slander slander white guy who went to harvard was like had written like several
00:19:45
books about it, but was talking about it this way. And it was just like, no, that's what's wrong
00:19:49
with the law is all of these laws were written by that guy. Yeah. Talk about fucking statute. I mean,
00:19:55
what comes up and Karen's always like, stop it. But statute of limitations is just like
00:19:59
my biggest, like anything but murder has statute of limitations. Seems like. Yes. And like,
00:20:05
that comes to an idea of like, after a certain period of time, you, you like, you, it's after
00:20:13
you find out that the injury occurred, does the statute of limitations. Okay. So 20 years later, you can be like, I got raped and it wouldn't have passed the statute
00:20:23
of limitations. Well, the thing is, is you knew for all of that time, but if it was something that like,
00:20:28
you didn't know that something had been stolen from you or, you know, if, if there was a body
00:20:36
and it was never reported and like, we, we found the body and it's related to nothing,
00:20:42
then you have like three or five or however many years. I guess it's murder. So that would.
00:20:48
Doesn't count. Yeah. It just makes, I feel like someday we're all going to be like,
00:20:52
the fuck was that about? Like kidnapping. I don't know. All of it. I have a question for you that I've always wondered like about myself and
00:20:59
what I would do is if you had to go to trial for something big, let's say, would you want a jury or would you just want a judge?
00:21:06
All right. First of all, do you guys understand what the difference between those two things are?
00:21:10
Not really. The amount of people. and robes. One is a jury and one is a judge. So the thing is, the idea is that in all
00:21:17
situations you have a finder of law and a finder of fact. So like a jury, the finder of
00:21:25
law is always the judge because they're official and they know what the law is. And finder of fact
00:21:29
you can either have it be a judge or you can have it be a jury. And the horrible thing about having gone to law school
00:21:37
is that I kind of would trust a judge as a finder of fact more. But the thing is, in a criminal case, you can't get a judge as a finder of fact.
00:21:47
Really? Yeah. Well, you have a right to a jury trial. Right. So, I mean, could you waive one?
00:21:52
See, this is how much I don't remember this stuff. And the thing is... I mean, you personally have one now.
00:21:57
Well, I mean, the thing is, is that I... No, I guess I would go with a jury because the thing is, is if I had done it, a jury is
00:22:05
easier to, like, you know, confuse about stuff like that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And, you know, there's the wonderful thing that we have this presumption of innocence and we have a thing against double jeopardy, which means, you know, if you just get them to even just mistrial three times, then you're off.
00:22:23
One of the things that's so interesting about listening to your podcast is this strong presumption of innocence, which is a thing I love, does lead to a lot of people getting off who we then later find out were horrible people.
00:22:37
Yeah. I mean, it's so shitty because it's like, well, there's double jeopardy. But just because this person was terrible and molested children doesn't mean he killed this other kid.
00:22:45
Yeah. But it's still... Shouldn't they... Oh, there's a great thing that circumstantial evidence is evidence.
00:22:52
Right. Have you guys ever talked about... I guess you guys do with DNA and stuff like that.
00:22:56
Yeah, there's a lot of cases that we talk about that are just tried on circumstantial evidence.
00:23:00
Yeah. For sure. And you do have that thing of, is it beyond a reasonable doubt? Right.
00:23:05
Which is like kind of good because it means you need a lot of circumstantial evidence.
00:23:09
Yeah. But there's also the weird thing of like it is just these 12 people kind of deciding it, which means that like jury instructions are always the most important thing.
00:23:18
Jury instructions are like a judge laying out what are the like five clean questions that you need to ask to figure out whether this is the person who committed the murder.
00:23:28
And do they do that when everything is done before they go to start to decide or at the beginning before the case is presented?
00:23:35
Okay. So basically at the end of the trial, both sides will submit a set of jury instructions.
00:23:43
These are the ones that we want them to be. And then the judge will basically, between
00:23:51
the two of those, sort of like synthesize jury instructions that he feel or she feels best
00:24:00
of like reflect the law as it exists and then submit those to the jury. That would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for the fact that the prosecutors are doing
00:24:08
anything in their means, including make up, you know, false stories to get their client
00:24:16
off. You know what I mean? You mean defense attorneys? No, the prosecution. I guess both.
00:24:23
You said get clients off. I mean, sorry, get their to. Okay. Yeah. The defense. You mean the defense.
00:24:28
But also the prosecution to get this person charged. The thing is that in my head, I'm always like, like the prosecution has such a better position because like before anything else, a DA gets to say, is this person clearly not guilty?
00:24:46
Like a DA can totally just say, I'm not going to prosecute him. And like they kind of have the apparatus of the state behind them.
00:24:54
And defense attorneys, when it's not people versus OJ Simpson, like so much of the time are like, they're worse paid.
00:25:02
Yeah. Like for everything except for white collar crimes, they are like worse paid and they have like worse support and everything.
00:25:09
And I do have more sympathy than I probably should for defense attorneys who are like trying to like get somebody off through technicalities.
00:25:23
Like, let's never forget that in the late 1970s, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was going to the South to people who had been convicted, convicted by all male juries and had death sentences and stuff and saying, let's reconsider his sentence because there were no women on this jury.
00:25:43
And that's why you guys have to serve jury duty now. I do. Because Ruth Bader Ginsburg made you equal, but in the process kind of got some assholes like a second chance, even though they did what they were convicted for.
00:25:58
In my mind, and this might fucking, I might be fucking putting my foot in my mouth, but I'm more dubious of the prosecution than I am of the defense.
00:26:06
Yeah. I mean, but it is, but also defense have so much, so much pushing them to like fight for technicalities.
00:26:14
Yeah. Where like, I just feel like. because they're kind of there to just go they cut down to the bare bones of like look this guy's this
00:26:22
and he's gonna look guilty how do i how do i cut down on how guilty he looks and just get the lowest
00:26:27
number that we could possibly get and the thing is is like you do i mean it is like defense attorneys
00:26:35
like shouldn't they all be plea bargaining like i just feel like good attorneys in any situation
00:26:41
really should be coming to some sort of agreement beforehand because going to a trial is just chaos.
00:26:47
You don't know what those people on that jury are going to say. It's crazy. It's crazy.
00:26:54
Crazy. Please, let's never be in that position. Guys, let's do our very best. Do you want me to answer the question from last week?
00:27:02
The key, key question from last week? Yes, yes. Repeat the question for everyone.
00:27:07
Well, it's your question. Okay. my question was my question my i said life imprisonment a sentence of life imprisonment
00:27:14
isn't life in prison um right well it came up first not to be argumentative yeah the first
00:27:19
thing you said was life in prison means 10 years well yeah which is when i said you're full of
00:27:24
shit i meant i didn't mean 10 years exactly but yes i meant like that was like that's how we
00:27:29
started talking about it we're like and then i was like what the fuck is going on in the 1970s
00:27:33
Georgia comes close to being true. Really? I'm sorry. I love vintage clothing. It's not remotely true anymore.
00:27:43
But it is. So like, basically, so you have either giving somebody a number of years
00:27:50
and sometimes you get the ridiculous number of years and you're like, why are they putting this person in prison for 572 years?
00:27:56
And that is because they have committed a bunch of crimes, but of a sort that life imprisonment is not an option.
00:28:03
and they're trying to put the person in prison. And then there's regular life in prison
00:28:07
and life in prison without parole. And regular life in prison in like the 70s, it used to be that like after as little as like four or five years,
00:28:17
you could be up for parole. Why use the word life? That's like a time in prison.
00:28:25
It's ridiculous. It's like a statement that means nothing. It means nothing. That's so confusing.
00:28:30
So what happened is because people kept getting off and going... Because no one knew it, right?
00:28:35
And killing some more people. This is what you were saying. Yes. But you started getting these laws
00:28:39
that were called truth and sentencing laws that basically said, and I think a majority of states have passed
00:28:45
them. And a lot of states now, and the federal government have the option of life imprisonment without parole.
00:28:49
But the thing of saying that you have to serve at least 85% of your sentence, and for life
00:28:56
imprisonment, creating a certain, like, you can't even be under consideration for parole until, like, 15 years.
00:29:02
Yeah, but that's still like if you get life in prison and then you and then with the possibility of parole in 20 years.
00:29:08
And so then you get, you know, 15 years or whatever. Eighty five percent of 20 is then then that's you get you spend 16 years in prison for murder and getting and getting life.
00:29:21
Like the story of this kind of is supposed to be that like, but this guy was being a model prisoner and he's being so great.
00:29:28
And there's also this thing of like good behavior time. Where like the person in charge of the prison can like give like credit time to you because you've been like behaving well.
00:29:44
But that is that thing of like, is prison reflective of how you're going to behave in real life?
00:29:49
I mean, of course not. And this is now we're getting back into the Mary Vincent case.
00:29:54
Yeah. Where that what happened to the man who attacked her and viciously maimed her where he was so good in prison that for I can remember his first crime whatever it was it was probably murdering a woman or something
00:30:08
He spent four years in jail and then got out to almost kill her. But let's talk about the awesome and cool ways that you can punish people for being assholes.
00:30:18
Okay. Okay. So Georgia and I are getting- This is right up your alley. Georgia and I are getting more champagne in us.
00:30:24
So this conversation, let's hope it's getting smoother. Let's do it. Okay. So let's, first of all, let's just go back to what does it take to make a murder?
00:30:32
What do you think it takes to make a murder? We already talked about intent. The dark?
00:30:36
Intent. A knife. Oh, you make your fucking joke about the dark. But let me tell you, for burglary and arson, at common law, they had to happen at night.
00:30:48
What? If you just broke into someone's house. What does that mean at common law?
00:30:51
Common law means the way that like the law originated in England way, way back when, but was still the valid law in the United States until like in places the 20th century.
00:31:04
We didn't change shit because we were stupid. They had to change shit because we were stupid.
00:31:08
But like in like in the same kind of olden times where you could not legally be considered to have raped your wife.
00:31:16
If you set somebody's house on fire in the daytime, you were fine. the best and what they said it was a mistake or something or like they just the thing is is that
00:31:26
all of this you weren't being sneaky all of yes it was just like well the dude who owned the house
00:31:31
really should have been watching it better now shouldn't he because neighbors are assholes yeah
00:31:35
that's right and so those that's all the law that just exists without us doing any work about it
00:31:40
and then eventually like state legislatures had to come along and be like well we should do
00:31:45
something about this because they keep stealing during the daytime and everyone's like but it's
00:31:49
tradition and this is how they did it but there's lights at night now they know that it's 1984 okay
00:31:55
um what else do you need like what else do you need for murder oh uh intent so we said intense
00:32:03
shit what else can steal my answer did you say intent um does it kill somebody okay that's another
00:32:12
thing okay this is something we talk about a lot is i i think it's fucking insane that
00:32:16
attempted murder isn't tried as murder. Okay, that's what we're getting towards.
00:32:20
I was just listening to an episode where you were ranting about that. I don't rant.
00:32:24
So I was talking about that. That's hilarious. So basically there are three kinds of crimes where you don't have to do the act.
00:32:35
So the thing is, is that like the thing that makes murder murder is that you commit an act, a violent act that deprives someone of their life.
00:32:47
Right. And the magic is the difference between depriving someone of their life and not is huge.
00:32:54
Wow. I could punch the shit out of Steven right now. No. No. And if he like survived, then that would just be battery.
00:33:03
Yeah. And assault. and I would go to jail for like six months. Is that because they can't prove your intent?
00:33:09
Or even if you know, like the thing is, it requires the same intent. Intent doesn't mean I want to kill Steven.
00:33:16
If I the exact same punch. Yeah. It's like, fuck that dude. Yeah. And he's still alive afterwards.
00:33:24
That's battery. And maybe go to jail for like three to six months or something. The exact same punch.
00:33:30
If like, you know, it's they call it the. was it Glass Victim or something? Delicate Stevens Syndrome?
00:33:36
Delicate Stevens Syndrome. Under Delicate Stevens Syndrome, and he goes down and he's dead.
00:33:42
I go to jail for 15 years to life. Yeah. Like it is just... Just because Steven's face couldn't take it?
00:33:48
Yes. It is just that much of a difference. Just because he loves cats? Just because his mustache didn't reflect the fucking touch?
00:33:55
And it's a little bit crazy. And an attempted murder basically just comes down to,
00:33:59
like attempted murder is something you just kind of like tack on top of the fact that it was
00:34:06
fundamentally just a battery well okay but what if you shoot someone in the head and they survive
00:34:10
what if you fucking stab someone and leave them for dead and they survive well i mean the thing
00:34:14
is is that it is the interesting you have to like suss into a person's head that it was actual
00:34:19
attempted murder as opposed to just like a battery and they can probably sue you for a lot of money
00:34:24
point where if you put something killy in someone's body they fuck it's fucking it's okay you're
00:34:29
murdering that is aggravated battery use of i mean this is putting something killy uh is actually a
00:34:36
legal concept and it's like the difference between first degree sexual assault and second degree
00:34:42
sexual assault in a lot of states is did you use a kill it did you use a killy thing oh wow you
00:34:48
were raping her or like in some cases the difference is between like intercourse and
00:34:53
just sort of like you know forced sexual assaults when the person all of the other things that when
00:35:00
consensual are fun but not sex if you say that we're gonna get in trouble for so let's say it
00:35:05
okay yes terrible what you just said what no i think i agree yeah no no no no i just mean like
00:35:11
explaining what the difference is is gonna piss someone off because it's such a fucking
00:35:15
it's so okay yes anyways we're just talking about the facts of what it is it's not it's not a joke
00:35:21
So the point is, is that my intent doesn't matter. Like my specific intent to kill doesn't matter nearly as much as what happens to Stephen.
00:35:31
And so with attempted murder, it is just the fact that at the end of the day, Stephen's alive, can go to law school one day, maybe, you know, just like.
00:35:40
Really make something of himself. Finally. No, Stephen, you're fucking. You're doing really well.
00:35:46
Two other inchoate crimes. That is, they're not complete. There is an act in them but not all of the act Like the all of the act would mean end up dead Okay They called solicitation and conspiracy Ooh I like these What do you think those things are
00:36:05
Selling is solicitation. Okay. Selling your body. Solicitation, I think, is trying to get someone to kill someone else.
00:36:11
Yes. Fuck. Yeah, dude. You're like, it's like five and oh right now. It's almost like I just watch TV all day and read fucking murders all night, which I do.
00:36:20
The thing about solicitation that's wonderful is, so all you need is the intent to want that crime to occur and an act to get somebody else to do it.
00:36:30
And you are at that point guilty. Like the crime that comes or the sentence that comes with solicitation is the same as murder.
00:36:38
It's completely the same as murder. So if you accidentally ask like an undercover cop to kill your husband, it's like you killed your husband.
00:36:44
But what do you mean about accidentally? Like you undercover cop. Okay. The undercover cop was the accident.
00:36:49
You tripped upon a fucking cop in uniform. You fell down into a cop's ear. Kill me.
00:36:55
But the thing is, if you said, like, God, I love it if Vince weren't around tomorrow.
00:36:59
You didn't have intent at that time. Okay. But if you went to an undercover cop and was like, look, Vince has been the worst.
00:37:06
And you, like, wanted it and meant it. Yes. Then, yes. Okay. You're going to jail for exactly as much as if you had attempted to murder Vince.
00:37:14
Yes. Karen has her hand right. I have my hand up. Shit. Oh. So does that mean that when you catch a person on tape, like if someone calls someone, it's over?
00:37:27
Like it always seems like in, you know, forensic files in 2020, it's like the second you make that deal on a phone call.
00:37:34
So the act. So in a murder, the act is putting the stabby thing in. Yeah. But in solicitation, the act is just the call.
00:37:43
And the thing is, is at that moment, it's enough. and you are an attempted murderer,
00:37:50
and if the other person did end up murdering the person, you're a murderer at that point in time.
00:37:54
Oh, you're the murderer even if you didn't commit the act. The thing is, you're guilty of solicitation of murder,
00:37:59
which carries the same punishment as murder. Interesting. Now, what do you think conspiracy is?
00:38:06
Conspiracy to commit murder is planning it, but without a hitman? None of these, like solicitations-
00:38:14
More of a DIY thing, yeah. The thing is, if you knew that Karen was going to try to kill me and you helped her plan it and figure it out.
00:38:33
And basically, sort of like conversations that are in the direction of that happening.
00:38:39
That conversation is enough that when Karen kills me, you are guilty of conspiracy of murder.
00:38:45
And I can say that, well, I thought she was kidding. I didn't think she was serious.
00:38:49
And it's for a jury to decide. The thing is, it is for the judge to say, if she thought she was kidding legitimately, that's not conspiracy for murder.
00:39:00
Is it immiscible? And it's not a question of immiscibility. It is a question of just like, legally, that's a mistake that absolves you of your mens rea, your mindset, your intent.
00:39:11
That's my word again. And so, but it's for the jury to be like, to look Georgia Hartstark in the eye and be like, is she bullshitting us?
00:39:19
And if they think that you're not bullshitting, then you are guilty of the same punishment as murder.
00:39:25
Okay, I have my hand up again. Because that, okay, so that is this thing that's now coming up all the time where people are only now realizing that everybody doesn't react the same way.
00:39:38
So if they look someone in the eye in the courtroom, there's a lot of these A Crime to Remembers where it's like she was icy cold.
00:39:46
And, you know, how dare a mother of two be this way? Therefore, she's guilty. She didn't burst into tears.
00:39:51
Yeah, she didn't act like a woman, quote unquote. And so she's guilty or whatever.
00:39:54
So it's that thing where there people are now realizing if a person doesn't act the way you have imagined a person under stress would act or a person that was sad or guilty or, you know, regretful or anything that's like all that projection.
00:40:10
But instead, it's like every individual deals with that situation differently. When I watch confession or when I watch interview or what's it called when you talk to a perpetrator?
00:40:22
You mean in court? No. In like the police room. Interrogation. Interrogation. Thank you.
00:40:29
I'm like trying to study that person and every single thing they say, but you just can't fucking know.
00:40:33
No. And we're back. I had forgotten about this episode and I love it so much. It was.
00:40:44
It was great. Such a great little segment. And we always talked about doing it more and never did.
00:40:49
Yeah. Should we talk about why we did it? Yeah. So I was working on Talk Show, The Game Show, which is Guy Branham, who is our guest for this entire hour. He was the host of that show. And I was the head writer at the time. And I was on it. And I was trying to finish the story I was doing that week. I wish I could remember it. I won't be able to. But I just couldn't finish it because I did work. And so I called you and I was like, yeah, I don't know what to tell you, but I didn't finish my story.
00:41:19
And I was like, I simply don't have a story to do, so I can't do that. And we went back and forth. I remember walking up and down the alleyway outside of the writer's room. And then I was like, okay, hold on. Give me one second. And then I went inside and I was like, hey, look, we're fucked. Can you please come and be on the show? And Guy's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm like, really?
00:41:42
Because he listened, too. He was a big fan. He talked about it all the time. Yeah.
00:41:46
And if we talked about stuff that was like, why do they do it this way or that way?
00:41:51
Very clueless. He would always tell me at work. Yeah. So I was like wait a second I think I can make up for the fact that I didn do my homework Yeah Get something going so we still recording and it not like a waste of time Yeah And then it turned out to be like this Band that was like one of the best episodes we ever done
00:42:09
Yeah, it was so good. He really fucking killed it. And it was very nice of him to come on.
00:42:13
There are a couple stories that we mention in this episode that we end up covering.
00:42:18
So Guy brings up the Jenny Jones murder case of Scott Amadure, which I cover in episode 40.
00:42:25
squad gourds. And then you mentioned the burning bed story that made for TV movie,
00:42:31
the story of Francine Hughes. And you covered that recently in episode 465. You're kidding yourself, supped, is what it's called. So you can check those out.
00:42:40
Just kind of like a nice little teaser that we didn't even know we would do. That's right. Because all of these stories are kind of hanging in the air around us. And it's
00:42:48
like that. I remember when I was this many years old and saw this on TV inappropriately,
00:42:53
and it stayed with me forever. He knew all the answers. It was very nice. All right, so should we get into some more of it?
00:42:59
Let's get into the second part of this law episode. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.
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00:46:22
Goodbye. One of the things that's interesting is that the idea of how a person would behave is an interesting legal standard of how would a reasonable person act.
00:46:38
So the thing is, let's say I was walking, I'm much larger than Georgia. I was walking towards her menacingly.
00:46:48
She became terrified and thought I was going to try to kill her. And she bludgeoned me with the Amy Sedaris Crafts book that we just had.
00:46:59
The question for the jury is, A, did she legitimately think I was going to use deadly force against her?
00:47:08
and B, would a reasonable person have thought I was going to use deadly force against her?
00:47:14
And that question of how would a reasonable person react is always so problematic as we saw with like Trayvon Martin
00:47:22
and so many situations where like, we can put our minds into the head of, you know,
00:47:28
you know, white dude, but we can't put our heads into the mind of like black teenager.
00:47:36
So my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later is probably illegal. No, that's kind of fine because it's non-deadly force.
00:47:44
Right, that's true. And non-deadly force, you know, the wonderful thing about pepper spray is the difference
00:47:49
between deadly force and non-deadly force is huge. And if somebody is using non-deadly force against, like if somebody is not trying
00:48:00
kill you. Right. They think they're threatening. And you use any level of non-deadly force. Fine.
00:48:06
That is self-defense. Beautiful. That is perfectly good self-defense. The thing is, is you need the other guy,
00:48:12
the bad guy, to be attempting to kill you. Kill or like sexually anything. You don't know
00:48:19
how it's going to... I mean, the terrible thing about the operation of the law as it exists right now
00:48:25
is that it does kind of require that he or she be trying to who could kill you for you to kill them. And if it is, the thing is, is that if presumably if,
00:48:37
if somebody was coming at you to sexually assault you and was being very physically intimidating,
00:48:42
you understanding that as being deadly force and sort of understanding if I resist him enough,
00:48:47
this dude's going to kill me. That's, that's understandable. The other situation where you're
00:48:53
allowed to use deadly force, even if they're not using deadly force is in your home.
00:48:58
Right. But some states don't do that, right? Yes, it does vary state by state. It does vary state by state.
00:49:04
But generally, there is a duty to retreat in a lot of situations. By who? Like if somebody's coming at you and you have a way of getting away from there.
00:49:16
You have the duty to retreat. I mean, the thing is, is that like if they're using deadly force against you, self-defense is fine.
00:49:23
But like if you have a clear way out, use your clear way out. But nobody's expecting you to retreat from your home.
00:49:28
You get to maintain your home. Okay. That's so interesting. That's good to know.
00:49:35
Yeah. Fucking hide knives everywhere. That just reminded me of just a quick anecdote.
00:49:41
Do it. Let's get heavy. Well, this is just an interesting thing of being in the home.
00:49:47
And also, we were talking earlier about growing up in the country. My old roommate, Mileva, grew up in a town called Auburn, which is like 20 minutes north of Sacramento.
00:49:57
Beautiful. And just a gorgeous, gorgeous area up in the old gold rush country. Like red woody kind of thing?
00:50:07
Not red woody because that's close to the ocean. This is more, but it's very foresty and hilly.
00:50:12
And just a lot of houses, every house is five miles away from the other house. No.
00:50:16
There's no such thing as real neighbors. I don't think I've ever not shared a wall with a neighbor.
00:50:21
Yeah. That scares me. This might really make you uncomfortable. Okay, tell me. Because so one night, and they all grew up like that.
00:50:27
And my friend Meliva told me the story that one of her friends was home alone as a teenager and got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
00:50:37
And her parents were like away for the weekend. And she stepped into the dark hallway and there was a man standing at the other end of the hallway.
00:50:45
So she just started making the weirdest noise that she possibly could. On purpose?
00:50:52
Yes. like because she just was like it was just an instantaneous decision where she's like totally
00:50:58
alone wherever the gun is she's nowhere near it blah blah blah whatever so she just started like
00:51:04
being crazy creepy and it freaked this guy out and he ran out of the house that's so smart isn't
00:51:11
that amazing that's so smart because i am so i have this big fear that i'm gonna get attacked
00:51:15
one day and you know when you can't you're so freaked out you can't scream yes you know happens
00:51:19
a lot in dreams, but it actually happens when you just try to scream and your voice is gone
00:51:23
because you're so scared. I'm so terrified that that's going to happen whenever I read
00:51:27
a murder story where the woman just starts screaming. I'm so impressed by that. Those instincts are just like, to do that is so impressive.
00:51:35
It's crazy. And I think it was her following her instinct. And it's also like, when
00:51:39
Mileva made the noise for me, I was like, stop making my noise. It's really weird, guttural.
00:51:44
It was almost like it being an animal, but it was almost like she's like, I'm an animal
00:51:47
that might attack you. And chances are, when you think about stuff like that, there's probably a drug addict,
00:51:53
like a local drug addict that was just trying to get something he could sell for money for drugs.
00:51:58
And so he's just like, I'll just break into this dark house and I'll get this thing and get out.
00:52:02
So he's probably high anyway. And then seeing some weird thing at the end of the hallway,
00:52:06
making that noise, like he probably stopped burgling, I like to think. Having the peace of mind when you're in like,
00:52:14
probably the most scared situation you're ever going to be in, to play on the other person's sense of fear.
00:52:20
It's just so self-possessed. It's a very good idea. What are other ways we can do that?
00:52:26
Well, sometimes when I walk the dogs and I'm scared at night because I'm walking them in the dark,
00:52:30
and I'll pass a house and then I'll look into the window and I can see people, and then I'm like,
00:52:36
oh, maybe I'm the creep. I always think the creep's behind me, but I could be the creep.
00:52:41
I'm sorry, if they're not closing their fucking blinds, then they're asking for it.
00:52:45
Right, but all it takes is the difference of being a girl walking a dog. It's like, I just stepped behind this tree, and now I'm the weirdo.
00:52:52
Or the person across the street sees you standing behind a tree looking in a window.
00:52:56
Oh, my God. On a slightly related note, when you're a gay guy walking down the street at night,
00:53:05
and a woman starts to walk faster or have any of the reactions that are the most normal reaction to a man walking behind you in that way,
00:53:15
It's so funny because I've talked about this with friends. The inclination to, sometimes people I know have started to pretend to have a phone call so that they can have gay voice.
00:53:29
Oh my God. Just yell, I'm gay. I mean, I most frequently will start singing to myself.
00:53:38
Oh my God. Just be crazy, you guys. To just be like, don't worry. Girl. good. Yeah. I thought you were going to say
00:53:47
take the time to criticize her hair and then she knows she is not in any Do you guys think Okay I have literally been in the situation where I giggled at something and a woman physical behavior on a street was just like oh i fine yeah i was like actually
00:54:06
sir can you walk me to my car do you think i always think like if i acknowledge someone and
00:54:13
smile at them and say hello or whatever that it's i'm letting them know that i am aware of
00:54:19
my surroundings and so i'll i'll stop and get my phone out and let the person pass me and say hello
00:54:24
to them and like not yes can i just say this i just was did i tell you about that book that i got
00:54:30
and it's called like um the spy's way of of like shoot i need to remember the correct name
00:54:38
that's so cute oh shoot um it's called like he was basically a cia agent and he it's a book it's
00:54:48
like a total plain read that i read where it's just a list of ways to stay safe oh my god i need
00:54:53
it. Yeah. I'll give it to you. It's really, really good. But I basically skipped to the whole thing
00:54:57
was like an environment awareness. And he's like, I would throw everyone's phone away if I could,
00:55:02
because people go into this thing where they think because this thing is, has a priority
00:55:07
and they're so interested in it that the world they're shutting out is shutting them out when
00:55:12
actually it makes you a target when you are clearly like being mesmerized by this thing in
00:55:17
your hand and you don't have environmental awareness. So like when you're, you have to,
00:55:21
you don't have to do anything, but when you're walking down the street, the best thing to do is be looking around, be making eye contact,
00:55:29
confidently making eye contact with people and just being, and also being able to look at a person being like, I see you there.
00:55:37
Like I have a phone in my hand that I can do something with, but also I see you there and like, are you going to come at me?
00:55:45
Is, is a way better approach because that's, You're basically, it's kind of like alpha dogging and just being like, this is my area.
00:55:54
And this is, I'm not a victim. This is like. I mean, I literally carry my pepper spray in those situations.
00:56:00
Like walking down the street in the dark, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Or like walking on my, like when something just feels off, sometimes I'll just walk with
00:56:07
it in my hand. Yeah. I don't know. I know I'm fucking paranoid as shit, but like, but that's what it's for.
00:56:14
Yeah. It's what it's for. I can't recommend being a creepily gigantic man enough.
00:56:18
amazing how tall are you you're like six three oh my god although last week i was in i was in
00:56:27
bloomington indiana and i went to um i went to the gay bar in bloomington indiana and i went to the
00:56:33
gay bar i love that yeah really and i looked in and there were like men playing pool and like
00:56:38
couples together and i was like oh this is not a gay bar what's going on um because if they're
00:56:43
men playing pool you're in the wrong place um and so i went in and i was like hey where's the back
00:56:52
door and they were like oh you have to go around through an alley the back wait to a windowless
00:56:59
leg it's just like a gay speakeasy it's a gay bar from the time when gay bars couldn't have window
00:57:04
like gay bars were about having a good time while hiding i like that he i like that he knew what you
00:57:09
minutes yes i wouldn't but the experience of like walking through that alley and being like
00:57:15
oh like how many people have been beaten oh yeah you know it's almost like it's a shameful thing
00:57:23
that you have to walk through this place and no one wants to go that's awful i mean i mean it's
00:57:27
it's like the old school way of things but it is it's the closest i can come to kind of
00:57:32
understanding what it's like for you guys anytime it's dark and you're going to your car of like
00:57:38
here's this alley where somebody could wait to just like hit you with a baseball bat.
00:57:42
It's not even at night. It's all day too. Like I won't walk down certain alleys during the day
00:57:47
because it's just... Don't walk down alleys. Yeah. No, they're dirty and they're for garbage men.
00:57:52
They're not for girls. Garbage men, not sanitation workers is what you're saying.
00:57:57
That's right. Yeah. Men of garbage level humanity. I want to clear that up because
00:58:00
sanitation workers are very respectable. Oh, but they're just... I also meant their truck
00:58:04
goes through that alley real fast. That's where the garbage cancer. But also shitty dudes. There was one final topic I wanted to discuss with you guys.
00:58:13
All right. Okay. So one of, one of the ways of sort of like saying something is not murder
00:58:18
is just sort of saying that the right, um, state of mind wasn't there. Um, and what,
00:58:25
well, first of all, just what manslaughter is, is when you didn't intend to do something,
00:58:30
but you made a mistake and you did it, you were negligent. So like any, essentially anything you
00:58:36
do in a car, not murder. It is like in the state of California, I think there is a really strong
00:58:41
presumption that anything you do in a car is not like you wouldn't want to kill someone with your
00:58:47
car. Yeah. Like you wouldn't be trying to kill someone with your car. Like if you shoot someone
00:58:51
in a car, I'm not speaking about that. Don't be crazy. Right. Yeah. But just sort of like,
00:58:56
um, you know, an accident is an accident. But again, like, I don't know why I'm targeting all
00:59:04
of this towards Georgia because of your attempt obsession. The difference between
00:59:08
I hit somebody with my car and I hit somebody with my car and then it killed them is
00:59:14
I accidentally hit someone with my car and then I killed them is you're going to
00:59:18
jail for eight years. Dude, I knew a guy who fucking was... Wait, sorry. Sorry. I accidentally hit someone with
00:59:24
my car and then it killed them. You're going to jail? You're going to jail. Yeah. That's manslaughter.
00:59:30
You've committed manslaughter. Even though it was an accident. Which is why don't fucking drive even if you're buzzed. Because
00:59:35
can you imagine two drinks and you drive and you accidentally kill someone? I didn't realize that's what you were saying. That's horrifying. And there is an extra
00:59:44
level of that where there are things that you are doing that are accidents, but are
00:59:48
so dickishly stupid that they're called depraved heart. And so they either called depraved heart manslaughter or in some states that enough for murder I think I know a dude that that happened to What the example though I went out onto my balcony and I shot my machine gun just into space I thought it was hilarious
01:00:06
I just drove my car into a farmer's market because I thought it would be funny. Oh, who doesn't?
01:00:12
No, it's not funny at all. So I know a dude. He was fucking high on meth. There was fucking traffic on the freeway.
01:00:19
And he decides to fucking gun it next to the fast lane. like the pull-off lane some fucking people had broken down in that lane and he comes around a
01:00:28
curve and hits them and they fucking i cannot it's been 15 years that's completely depraved heart
01:00:34
and it's that it's horrifying he went to prison for a long time the very interesting thing that
01:00:38
for a long time i got so drunk or i got so stoned just meant that you had been negligent and not
01:00:46
that you had intent but like does that make sense so is it now does it now mean that like basically
01:00:53
it would now probably be construed as depraved heart. Like you just, you got yourself into a situation where you knew it was possible that you
01:01:01
were might drive into somebody like that. Well, that's the thing where like I lived through,
01:01:06
I think we all lived through the time where we watched drunk driving become a bad thing,
01:01:12
which is hilariously insane now. But like it was when I was 10 or 12 years old, I remember the,
01:01:20
it was, I think it was a made for TV movie where like, And it's a true story of the drunk driver who had been arrested for drunk driving eight times.
01:01:28
And then he does it. It's the ninth, but never went to jail. It was like, here's your ticket, ticket, ticket.
01:01:33
He comes over the hill. It's the story of the woman who founded Mother of the Gang's Drunk Driving.
01:01:39
I remember that TV movie. Her kid's walking in the middle of the street over a hill.
01:01:43
He's drunk. He plows down two girls, I think. And yeah. And that's when they were like, no more of this fucking businessman who had a great lunch.
01:01:54
And sorry, everybody. Bullshit. You would think that they could, that the parents could sue the city for that, for never having punished him for all the eight fucking DUIs he already had.
01:02:03
I think now they do stuff like that. But like back then it was like, oh, but we all drink and drive.
01:02:09
Yeah. You interestingly can't sue a city for things like that because of a thing called sovereign immunity.
01:02:15
Shut up. where unless the state, unless the, like when the state is acting like a business,
01:02:19
like when they're, when they're running like, oh, we take your garbage away or we're making power,
01:02:27
that stuff you can sue them over. But we did the stuff that like only a state can do.
01:02:32
Like we criminally prosecute, like we failed at prosecuting them or whatever. It's like you treat them
01:02:39
the same way you would the king of just like, no, they're fine. Fucking police state,
01:02:43
motherfucker. What's interesting? For or against? I mean, I think we're fine right now.
01:02:48
And we are cruising towards a police state in the near future. In 2017, we're fucked.
01:02:53
Let's work against, is what we're saying. What would be interesting as the first, like, as we get more texting while driving?
01:02:59
The thing is, it's like texting while driving, probably negligent. Driving while watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on your phone?
01:03:07
Depraved heart. Depraved heart. Who does that? I feel like watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is depraved heart anyway.
01:03:15
It took me too long to say that. No, it was good though. Thank you. Thank you. Can you think of any other way of getting rid of somebody's state of mind?
01:03:23
First of all, you're the best teacher I've ever had. I know. This is fun. I hate being asked questions.
01:03:26
I'm so sorry to hear being so lost. But you're the one, you know all the answers.
01:03:30
No, this is the best. I'm a fucking brat. Can we think of another way? Of like obviating the...
01:03:37
You can't say words like that. Don't know that word either. Of sort of removing the state of mind as one of the elements.
01:03:43
Drugs? The elements. Same thing as drugs is basically the sort of lowering it to negligence the way that we talk.
01:03:49
Oh, mentally capacitated. Mentally incapacitated. Except I said mentally capacitated.
01:03:55
What's mentally capacitated about? Not me. There are. OK, so there are cool defenses like South Defense is a great defense, but there are cool defenses like duress.
01:04:07
Duress. I'm always under duress. Yes. he had my child and he told me the only way
01:04:12
he would let my child out is if you know I shot this person does that work for cats too because I would fucking
01:04:18
kill a bitch if they hit my cat okay based on the things that I have told you what do you think the standard
01:04:24
would be what's the standard again based on the things you've told us Karen and I are
01:04:32
great I flunked out of a state school I went to community college and just fucking
01:04:38
How do we determine whether is threatening a cat enough for it to be duress on Georgia Hardstark?
01:04:45
Oh, because I'm in love and you can tell. If you have an Instagram and there's photos with this thing on it, then you can fucking kill someone.
01:04:52
If she cradles the cat like a baby every night. Okay, so that is proof that Georgia actually felt like that would be terrible.
01:05:01
Yes. But you also have to ask. Oh, so I can do it? You also have to ask what a reasonable person kill the secretary of the interior to save their cat.
01:05:11
I would do it. Just someone go ahead and say this is going to be in my trial. But the other more interesting thing is like mental state.
01:05:19
And so I just wanted to talk about a little bit about not guilty by reason of insanity.
01:05:24
How much does that actually come up in these horrible, horrible people that you guys discuss?
01:05:30
The things I've been learning and reading about is that a lot of people try it and it's really easy to fucking, it's really easy to disprove it. And the reality is it's really fucking hard to prove it. And it's always an extreme case now. You can't just, it's not, it's not as easy as people think it's going to be.
01:05:49
It the guy that in Canada I believe Winnipeg took the machete to the other guy head on the bus The province of Wurrge Oh Jesus The cannibal episode No Winnipeg is a city I was thinking fun of you
01:06:05
Don't do that. Is Winnipeg in Manitoba? Yes, it is. Is this the cannibal episode?
01:06:10
No, not cannibal. It's just the guy that went crazy on the Greyhound bus, remember?
01:06:14
And he killed the guy sitting next to him and then just went crazy. But didn't he eat a little bit of him?
01:06:20
Yes, you're right. We had a cannibal episode on Pretend you to do things. Um, that's right. He ended up, it was by reason of insanity because he was technically, he was, um, I believe schizophrenic, but not taking his medication because he, it was, it was like his family was basically judging him for being schizophrenic. Like you can't be crazy.
01:06:42
But based on that, though, like if you're schizophrenic and you stop taking your meds, aren't you responsible for that?
01:06:47
Like you can't just stop taking your meds and kill someone. Tell us everything. Fascinating question.
01:06:52
This is a 32-part question. It's been super hard. Also, have you guys done the Florida kid who ate the people in the garage yet?
01:07:02
Bath salts? I believe it was bath salts. Ate the face? Or was he on steroids? I don't know.
01:07:07
There's a guy who ate a face on a highway, right? He ate it in a garage. It may have been bath salts, but there's footage of him walking out of an Applebee's looking really weird.
01:07:17
No. I mean, who doesn't look that weird to walk out of an Applebee's? That took me too long to say that.
01:07:21
Save it for year 15. Anyway, so basically there have been a couple of big theories about how do we figure out, is this person crazy enough?
01:07:32
And the first one started when a guy tried to kill the prime minister of Britain.
01:07:37
And it's called the McNaughton Rule, which was the rule for like a really long time.
01:07:42
And that comes down to, could they not tell the difference between right and wrong?
01:07:46
Which is like, that's sort of like the classic question. And it's also so weirdly subjective.
01:07:53
Yeah. And like in the 60s, we started moving towards this new thing called the Durham test, which was trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding of things.
01:08:03
and they uh the question was was this a result of your mental illness was the act a result of your
01:08:12
mental illness and then the president got shot all right oh yeah and for jody foster yes yeah
01:08:21
and what's his name said not reasoned by guilty of insanity and under the durham test he was judged
01:08:26
not guilty by reason of insanity and then every fucking state came back and passed laws that were
01:08:32
like fuck you Durham test um and so like they some of them went back to the McDonnell rule
01:08:39
um so some of them went in the direction of this thing called the irresistible impulse test
01:08:45
that sounds like a new Avon perfume it's kind of fruity with a distinct bunch of blood irresistible impulse is kind of that guy
01:08:57
Like the question is just the classic question is if it was a police officer standing by your elbow, would you still do it?
01:09:05
And like Manitoba bus guy just feels like, yeah. No, no. He absolutely was convinced that that guy had a demon inside of him and he had to kill him.
01:09:16
That's a really great question. Yeah. It's like you're in this other world and it doesn't matter who's at your elbow.
01:09:23
They're on your side. You know, the cops on your side and your fucking mind. Yeah, you're trying to protect that cop is essentially the mentality.
01:09:29
And that also goes towards that McNaughton idea of like, can you just not tell the difference between right and wrong?
01:09:36
But it's like, you know, you got molested as a kid. And so you think that's OK. And you, you know, molest another your kid.
01:09:46
It's like, that's right. That's what you're supposed to be doing. You know, in a fucking pedophile's mind.
01:09:51
The thing is, is like, hey, it's at this point in time, it's super, super hard to get a not guilty by reason of insanity.
01:09:58
And then there's also the thing of like, even if you do not guilty by reason of insanity, you're going to a mental hospital for what should be forever.
01:10:09
Like what should be until you're cured, cured. So you guys recently had a horrifying story.
01:10:14
Was it recent or I just listened to it recently? We don't remember any. of somebody somebody who went somebody who got a not guilty by reason of insanity and then got out
01:10:22
like within a year all of them well i feel like it was i think it was a little bit longer than a
01:10:29
year but our greyhound bus guy is free now oh right is free now in canada it's so charming
01:10:36
yeah and also like i always think of like mental facilities like can i fucking go there for a week
01:10:41
please but it's not like a yoga retreat this is a fucking like shitty well also they don't exist
01:10:46
anymore. Right. That's true. They don't. A friend of mine went to a women's jail
01:10:52
in Japan. Oh my god. I always just imagine that as the most amazing spa. I just imagine. Was it all
01:10:58
Hello Kitty stuff? Fish and rice three times a day. Oh my god. Light exercise. Like quiet.
01:11:08
Tope linen clothing. Very quiet. Just Shiseido facial bar. Oh my god. You're just, there's a lot
01:11:14
of exfoliating and gorgeous skin. Oh, the hair is just luscious. Poor dicks. But it's so small.
01:11:23
It's like a small cube. Yeah, I mean, like, my mom was a psychiatric nurse, a head nurse at a
01:11:30
mental hospital, and when Proposition 13 passed, they closed most of the mental health
01:11:36
facilities in California. And I think across the nation, I can't remember what, if it was state... 13 was
01:11:42
just California. Yeah, it was California. But it is something that has declined And like, I think the Reagan administration cut funding for mental health and released a bunch of people.
01:11:54
That's why there's a homeless fucking epidemic. Because these are all people who should be in mental health facilities.
01:12:00
Taken care of. And medicated and instead. So that kind of thing where these days, if it's not guilty by reason of insanity, where do they send people?
01:12:09
I mean, there are just like deeply overbooked state mental hospitals and some that are, I believe, specifically structured for people who have committed crimes.
01:12:20
Oh, OK. So it's like a wing at a prison almost. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh. Yeah. I think California has that.
01:12:27
Oh, Folsom, I think, is where the sort of like mentally ill people who have committed crimes.
01:12:35
Let's go there right now. Let's do a Folsom trip. You know what's funny? My mom used to-
01:12:40
Also, I may be totally wrong about that. And let's just remember, I went to law school 16 years ago.
01:12:45
This is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right. I was just going to say really quick, there's a maximum security.
01:12:53
It's a super max prison called Pelican Bay that's up in way Northern California.
01:12:59
And my mom used to go with her friend, um, Mrs. Manwiller. I can't remember her first name.
01:13:05
Uh, cause Mrs. Manwiller was the kind of nurse. I think she was also a psychiatric nurse and she would go there and give like tests to the,
01:13:13
um, residents for some reason. I can't remember what she was doing. I don't want to talk to her so bad.
01:13:19
My mom would just go along and stay at the hotel, like read a book. and then they would like go to a fun dinner room like you're intentionally going to pelican bay
01:13:27
where like it's basically all about this super max prison it's where they put her vacay it was her
01:13:33
vacay that's right and she was like oh of course i'll go i'll just go up there with her they have
01:13:37
this great italian place and meanwhile inside the prison are like all it's all the um hannibal
01:13:43
lecters of of like california oh my god she didn't have to deal with you and your sister
01:13:48
so true so true when i was in hospital in minnesota they like took us to go see the prisons
01:13:57
and it's the weird thing is like i'm from california where we have so like we just have
01:14:02
so many of these things minnesota was basically just like there are two maximum security prisons
01:14:08
and one of them was like 1800s kind of like that thing and one of them was like oz like state of
01:14:17
they are state of the art there's like a bubble where you can run the whole place from there
01:14:22
and they were making like kindergarten mats that was the thing that they did was they made a little
01:14:27
mats for kindergartners um and it was you know terrifying it was legit terrifying to see what
01:14:34
life there would be like well we talked about this when we were both watching the night of
01:14:38
we talked about it all the time how it's like we want them people that do horrible things to
01:14:44
be locked away forever and no sentence seems long enough and all that stuff. Then you watch the night
01:14:48
of and you're like four minutes as a, as a prisoner inside of, in any of those places is an absolute
01:14:55
horror show nightmare. Like then you start getting, it makes me think about it. The, the complexity of
01:15:02
when you get, you know, when you actually get found guilty for a crime like that and you go
01:15:08
away for 11 years because you did this thing and you literally are delivered into the bowels of
01:15:14
hell and hopefully hopefully you stay alive like that that does count for something we always want
01:15:21
it to be 50 years or whatever but like is is 11 years enough when it's that level of suffering
01:15:28
and fear and constant horror yeah but what did you do to your victims that they had a similar
01:15:34
experience. That's private. What I did to my victim. No, I know. No, absolutely.
01:15:39
But it's also like, that's why I'm also so interested in like cases where it's like, did they get the right guy?
01:15:44
Because the thought of walking in there and being like, I have 11 years and I didn't fucking do this.
01:15:49
There's nothing more horrifying than those stories of, yeah, I was in there for seven years and then
01:15:54
like they got the DNA like technology to figure out, I couldn't have remotely done this.
01:16:01
That's a hundred years more. You know, it's not seven years. It's fucking dog years.
01:16:05
It's I hate those stories so much. Wrongly accused is like it's just it's how do you convince people?
01:16:15
In that situation, you can sue for deprivation of your civil rights. I think if you can show sort of like like misconduct on the part of the or just sort of like failure to do their jobs properly.
01:16:32
on the part of the prosecution. And so like if someone else gets caught and convicted,
01:16:39
then you can, like if they find someone else's DNA and they let you go, it's one thing.
01:16:43
But if they find someone else's DNA and they find that person and convict them, then you probably have more leeway.
01:16:47
Well, what you would do is if they find DNA that relates to your case, then you would,
01:16:54
there's a thing called like a habeas corpus act where- Is it like menses? oh my god i got my menses on my habeas corpus day habeas corpus is just it's it means like
01:17:08
present the body and the thing is is that's a proof sexy a direct like a direct thing where you
01:17:15
get to go to um an appeals court and say like look this means there's no possible way he did it and
01:17:24
like those are the things that like people in jail are constantly trying to like pursue themselves
01:17:30
And you get occasional TV movies about the one guy who managed to like get himself out.
01:17:35
The Innocence Project tries to do it too. Right. Right. And don't you think that Beyonce should record a song called Present the Body?
01:17:42
Where the chorus. And then like in parentheses, the habeas carpet. That's right.
01:17:46
Exactly. Or the chorus. Yeah. Habeas chorus. So you should be I mean if there is DNA evidence of that sort you should be doing a better job of getting yourself out there than the state is doing of prosecuting somebody else Like it on you
01:18:05
Like it's it's it's on you, but also it should be able to happen quicker, I would think, than the state going and trying to get that other person from jail.
01:18:17
from i'm we're saying there's an innocent person in jail yeah and there is a person out there who
01:18:25
actually committed the crime that like the minute they find the dna that couldn't possibly be yours
01:18:31
then your lawyer can file a habeas corpus and um you know the like the police will be or whoever it
01:18:41
is we'll in the DNA experts will all be like, nope, nope, nope. And you can get that done.
01:18:47
And it seems like finding the person and all of that who actually did it would be a longer
01:18:53
process than the habeas corpus. Okay. I don't understand. That's a lot. I don't know that I understand.
01:19:01
You sounded real smart just now. I'm sorry. Are you just saying as opposed to the finding the guilty man, it's just proving it's not
01:19:10
you? It's just proving it's not you. And like, it was just that, yeah, Georgia's question was like, basically, can there be two people in jail for the same murder at the same time?
01:19:23
And kind of no. Oh, got it. Unless they were like collaborated. Oh, what about the guy who eventually got prosecuted by the army?
01:19:33
Oh, yeah. Did you hear that one? No. That's crazy when we started talking about double jeopardy.
01:19:39
but I mean anytime I'll just say a thing where I'm like I'm pretty sure this is the word I should
01:19:43
be saying but I can't have like a debate about because I don't really know what I'm talking
01:19:47
about but it was you know you know he got tried and convicted of a triple homicide that got
01:19:53
overturned and he got and he was declared innocent then they found years later it's the Summerland
01:20:00
Road murders and then years later they found DNA you know once DNA technology was around
01:20:06
tying him to the murders. And so because they couldn't try him for double jeopardy because of double jeopardy
01:20:13
because he'd already been convicted and then deemed innocent, he had been in the army at the time
01:20:18
and so they reinstated him and then he was tried by one of the army people. I don't know what's it called?
01:20:27
NCIS? Mark Harmon? Yeah. That's because those are different laws. And different jurisdiction.
01:20:35
No, because of the different laws, because they're different jurisdictions. But isn't that it's so that doesn't count as double jeopardy if the army steps in and is like, we're going to try it over here.
01:20:48
Yes, because he violated a different law for committing murder while a member of the army.
01:20:53
Or if he had if he had crossed state lines with a kidnap victim, he then the FBI and or the or the U.S. could could try him.
01:21:03
Right. Yeah. So it's an interesting thing that like you can't I don't think you can be convicted of like.
01:21:11
Can you be convicted of both federal and state murder? If they are if it is both a federal and state murder, I would think so, because there is a different requirement.
01:21:23
But there is this thing where if all of the elements of your crime are all are also all of the elements of a different crime, you can't be convicted for both of them.
01:21:34
So like going back to me, going back to me punching Steven, going back to that. What if Steven sues you just for this example?
01:21:43
All of all of the things that I did to punch Steven were battery, but they were in the
01:21:49
situation where I killed him. It was also murder, which means if you prosecute me for murder and I'm convicted of murder,
01:21:55
I cannot be convicted of the battery that was, you know, that was part of it. But so with that, I assume the thing is that like the failure was on the part of like the state law, like because there was clearly some sort of technical failure in prosecuting it under the state law.
01:22:22
you he cannot be retried under the state but all of the facts still occurred I just wonder like
01:22:32
as science and technology advances should double jeopardy like depend on compelling evidence
01:22:42
you know when we someday can use you know DNA in the fucking 90s wasn't what it is today in the early 2000s.
01:22:52
And so there's so many cases that they're going to find something bigger in 2025
01:22:56
when we know more. And it is so hard. It is very, very hard when we constantly have new technology
01:23:04
that gives us more information. And when you tried somebody under what criminal research was in 1984,
01:23:12
you want to have another stab at it in 2016. Right. But I believe in the idea of like,
01:23:19
no, you get like statute of limitations. Let's deal with it now. Yeah. And you kind of have to deal with it under the terms of now.
01:23:28
And you can't go back and, and it's hard with things like cold cases and stuff like that.
01:23:33
And it's also up to the prosecution to decide if they actually have a case that they can win.
01:23:37
So if you don't, then you should fucking wait until you do, which is why they don't try a lot of non-body.
01:23:43
It's one of your rights, right? Yeah. Except for the fact that you've got the, the yes,
01:23:48
speedy trial, But the thing is, a speedy trial only starts once they arrest you.
01:23:53
Yeah. Once they don arrest someone until you Yeah And the thing that interesting is like we knew she was dead in 1967 but if we get information that says oh so and so did it in 19 or in 2016 then you can go and get
01:24:14
that guy it's not like statute of limitations has told because um wait has it i don't know
01:24:21
I get it. It's murder. Yeah. Not if it's murder. Never for murder. Never for murder.
01:24:26
Yeah. But. Yeah. So like you just kind of have to wait until you have enough stuff that is a case.
01:24:34
Yeah. Fuck, man. Yeah. Fuck. Wow. Funny. This is horrifying. I've forgotten so much about this stuff.
01:24:44
Hi. You're amazing. Welcome to our world. I'm sorry for all of your listeners. You're great.
01:24:49
You're like, wait, what? there's there's only 500 lawyers out there that listen to this yeah this is terrible also all of
01:24:58
well no but also the worst part about this is that i love giggling to myself about karen calling
01:25:05
winnipeg a province or manitoba a city but now you're going to get all of the lawyers writing
01:25:11
millions of listeners have you seen our fucking listeners they send us sweet honesty shit they're
01:25:17
going to make a quilt about how I got the law wrong. What's going to happen is someone's going to be like a meme of a quilt and it's
01:25:26
adorable and charming and everyone loves it. No, I think this is so satisfying because basically for a year straight,
01:25:33
we've been throwing out what we think and kind of that with the intention of like,
01:25:38
we'll probably get back around to this and have an answer eventually or whatever,
01:25:42
but arguing like, well, this not arguing with each other, but like saying like, this should be this way.
01:25:46
And it's like, well, here's why it's not that way. Right. I like that. And the thing is, I do.
01:25:51
I like after law school, I was just so terrified every time I got behind the wheel of a car.
01:25:56
Please let me not kill someone this time. Yes. No, I will be that way, too. But the paranoia of like once you're in the criminal justice system, it's so horrifying and they have the right to take your life away from you.
01:26:08
That I do, like, however annoying it may seem, I do really believe in all of those little constitutional things that are like, if you don't do it all right, then this person has to go, like, this person gets off.
01:26:21
Like, and watching the Supreme Court kind of, like, scrape away at some of those things.
01:26:26
Like, it used to be if anything remotely, like, unkosher had happened in, like, searching for something, that evidence was the fruit of the poisonous tree and could never be used.
01:26:37
And they've started to be a little bit more. Yeah. Even though you didn't have a warrant for him, it's fine that you got that.
01:26:45
And that terrifies me, even though it's finding people who actually are guilty, mostly of drug crimes and stuff like that.
01:26:55
I'm just like, I want all of the protections I can have so that the state can't throw me away forever.
01:27:00
That's right. That's the I think ultimately that's the thing. It's like once when we start talking about because we are talking about cases most of the time we're talking about cases where we know the person did it.
01:27:13
So then when we opine, it's with a passion of God damn it. These people have their lives taken away by this person who we know is bad because it's been proven.
01:27:24
Somebody else did all the work and we just get to say, yes, get rid of this person because they they they got rid of other people.
01:27:30
And that sucks. But when we get into those cases where it's a question mark, you still have the same feelings of bad people should pay for for ruining other people's lives.
01:27:44
Well, it's interesting that you think of it from your side of like of being the person who's prosecuted, where I think of it as being the victim.
01:27:54
Yeah. And like all the little things that I'll need to do. Like I save my I have all of my like day planners from the past like five years.
01:28:03
So if I ever need to say where I am or what I was doing or like testify for somebody else or, you know, like if I use my credit card, every time I use my credit card at a fucking parking meter, I think, OK, well,
01:28:14
this is going to be a trail of where I was that day in case something happens. It's what goes both ways though.
01:28:20
Cause it also could be a trail of something that proves you were at a parking meter.
01:28:24
And it like, yeah, I don't think about that. I'm a white fucking female. I like,
01:28:28
I'm not, I don't need to worry as much. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it is that situation of like,
01:28:34
I'm just not scared of incidental crime in the same way. I like somebody might rob me,
01:28:42
you know, Or like there is random sort of, I'm also just not, I'm not the most bashable gay guy.
01:28:50
So I feel like you're almost unbashable. Puh, puh, puh, Karen. Let's not say that.
01:28:56
Yeah, that's true. But it is like the, I think there's maybe like more randomness to the kind of crime and like why somebody might murder me than for, for women.
01:29:12
you know like like we're always uh vulnerable yeah no matter what um but also the thing of
01:29:20
the weird thing about reading those cases and listening to your stuff is realizing that somebody
01:29:25
can just like bounce into your world and for no reason cause such horror and pain for just
01:29:35
for something that doesn't even make sense to me and it's a shockwave of your family and
01:29:41
friends and fucking peripheral people in your life just pisses me off so much that these
01:29:48
fucking assholes can take away so much by just having a fucking random feeling to kill someone or drug addiction so often is just the dumbest yeah like they were on meth and they didn know what they were doing or they on meth and it made them
01:30:05
this crazy violent or whatever where it's just like but there's all these people that
01:30:09
don't do meth and live you know live legal lives well i mean the things where i do get into
01:30:15
the mindset of the victim are more sort of like the evidentiary things of like if this person's
01:30:21
not around. We don't get to rely on the fact that they can't, you know, that you're allowed to admit
01:30:26
hearsay evidence for a dead person because they can't testify on their behalf. And you think that's not fair?
01:30:36
No, I think it's wonderful. The best thing, like, there are parts of the law that, like, feel like magic
01:30:43
that really are just, like, such old, ancient magic. And my favorite one is your
01:30:48
dying utterance is always admissible. No. Yes. What? So your dying utterance is like,
01:30:58
because the thing is, is like, it's... That's the name of this episode. Your dying utterance.
01:31:03
It's hearsay. So hearsay is something somewhat, you can't testify about stuff that somebody told you.
01:31:09
You can only testify about stuff that you like experienced yourself. Fuck, though.
01:31:13
But when it is your dying utterance because there's no you around anymore, like that is always admissible and at least just to be considered yes um it doesn't it doesn't mean
01:31:26
like it does it's just like throw that in there with everything else why is that okay why is okay
01:31:32
so my sister says to me i'm really scared that my husband's gonna kill me that and i say that
01:31:37
and she gets killed and i say that that's hearsay um yes it's hearsay but hearsay is admissible some
01:31:45
of the time. Okay. But if you were, as she was dying, leaned over and she said it in your ear,
01:31:51
he's the one that did it. That seems like, okay, that's fair. But that seems like the opposite of
01:31:55
how it should be. Like she's been telling me this shit for years. Okay. Well, the thing is,
01:31:59
is like, um, after your brother-in-law testifies about stuff, about how things were fine. Andy,
01:32:07
I love you. I know you're not a marketer. Yeah, I know. We have to say that. I just realized that
01:32:10
Or like that, the example sounds like, I don't mean that. You're allowed, I mean, there is something about how hearsay from dead people, there's
01:32:21
a separate rule about hearsay from dead people being more admissible, but also you can admit
01:32:26
hearsay to impeach his testimony. So if he says things were fine, Beth and I had the best of relationships, then we can
01:32:34
bring Georgia to the stand and Georgia says, she told me 19 times and I wrote them down
01:32:40
on the little pad in my kitchen. And the little pad from your kitchen is also admissible.
01:32:45
Okay. That makes sense. I like that. And also emails these days would last forever.
01:32:50
So wonderful. I'm keeping a fucking pad in my kitchen from now on and I'm writing down every time anything happens.
01:32:56
Good idea. Right? Yeah, and then you can write a book. It's just intense detail of every single thing
01:33:03
that happens to you. Oh, yeah. My mom has a situation that Karen Carter knows about.
01:33:10
that just like there might come a situation where she needs to testify about something
01:33:18
and she's always just like, well, I put it on my pad. I wrote it down, God. That's all you need.
01:33:25
She really does that? Yes. Oh my God, that's hilarious. That's why I keep my daily calendars
01:33:32
is like, I'll remember something if I see that I went to this fucking doctor or whatever that year or that day.
01:33:37
Having documents for stuff is just so exciting from a legal perspective. You do discovery.
01:33:42
That means the other side gets a copy of your calendar. So, so, so many copies. Oh, I went to court reporting school for a year.
01:33:50
I thought I could pretend to know this shit. I would actually say too, that in almost like the inverted version of this
01:33:56
that I think of is like in my family, there was a ton of death when I was young and it was a lot of it like surprising
01:34:04
and one after the other. And that's when I just decided I'm going to do what I fucking want.
01:34:10
Because when we talk about the random stuff or when we talk about being a woman and walking with fear at night or whatever it is, it's this thing where any this that's that is the deal of life.
01:34:22
That is what born being born into this life. That's the situation. It's the same.
01:34:27
You know, it's different for different people for different reasons. But in general, we are all constantly at risk.
01:34:33
We all have the specter of death hanging over us all the time. it's why some people love true crime it's why some people love to paint it's why some people
01:34:41
can't stop jogging whatever the fuck it is but ultimately i feel like i had this kind of weird
01:34:46
realization as a young child who's like this fucking sucks and it could end at any second
01:34:52
well the thing is like it could be somebody with a machete on a bus or the amount of potassium in
01:34:57
your system yeah exactly so like so then why not be like oh sorry i meant to tell you i'm totally
01:35:03
in love with you or why not go do stand-up comedy that you're scared to death of doing but why not
01:35:08
do it because it's the thing in your heart that you want to do like you might as well this is your
01:35:13
one fucking shot and you can sit there lining up all the things that are the reasons why you should
01:35:18
be scared or you can go well i should be really scared because this whole situation is really
01:35:23
scary so why be scared about the one thing i really want to do why not just fucking do it then
01:35:29
2016 that's 2017 that's 2017 baby 2017 is how Karen is doing it and everybody else if you would like
01:35:40
to join me how long have we been talking? 8 hours? so long. Should we each do one murder
01:35:46
from our cards? our true crime cards? draw a murder like it's tarot cards I have a stack of these true crime playing cards
01:35:56
that Stephen Stephen Ray Morris gave us last week, Last week, we're each going to draw one.
01:36:02
Okay. And we're going to read about it. And it's just fucking, it's just like playing cards and it's murderous.
01:36:08
Oh shit, you guys. All right, I'm going to do one. Oh my God. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.
01:36:16
And we're back. Well, it's kind of more of the same. It's just like all the things that we don't know are asking him about.
01:36:22
And what I love is guy is very humble in this where he's just like, yes, I'm technically a lawyer.
01:36:28
I passed the bar. Right. You know what I mean? But it's like, but I haven't talked about any of these things in 13 years. So you're kind of like pop quizzing me on a thing that, yes, as a very, very smart person, I feel like I should know forever. But we're like, now let's talk habeas corpus.
01:36:42
Yeah, how come we're really mad at him for the law? But somehow he knew all the answers, though. It was so impressive.
01:36:47
It was really impressive. I was very much like, oh, this is why some people can graduate law school. And I would never. I don't have a memory like that.
01:36:56
No, it's like a it's a way your brain is set up. Totally. I would imagine that he would tell us there's other things going on, but he definitely doesn't have like ADHD.
01:37:05
No. Any of those kind of like, I'm a mosquito and I think he's like a hyper focuser.
01:37:10
Yeah. Which can be ADHD, too. Is that true? Yeah. Everybody's got it. Everyone fucking has it.
01:37:16
It can go that way for sure, which like that's not mine, but OK. But OK. I think if there's anybody that should come back to the show, it's Guy Brand.
01:37:25
Abso-fucking-lutely we should have him back. He should be like a guest host when one of us is like sick or just can't do it.
01:37:31
It's like bring him in. Definitely. Yeah. That's great. Great. We've decided. Boom.
01:37:36
Okay. Let's get into part three and let's hear what else he has to say. Smart person, Guy Brennan.
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01:40:40
okay who wants to go first karen you sound excited she go last um guy seems disheartened
01:40:50
guy do you want to read read wait hold on i think this this might be what no hold on i said last
01:40:56
no it's the mcnaughton rules oh i fucking just pulled the card that's crazy okay let me read this the mcnaughton rules we'll just we'll double check your work
01:41:09
In 1843, Daniel McNaughton, the Glasgow woodworker, shot the secretary to the British prime minister.
01:41:17
Guys, I have tingly tingles right now. Five packages of these. And this is the one we open.
01:41:23
And that's the one you fucking. I wasn't looking. They were upside down. This is not what is happening.
01:41:29
He had intended to kill the prime minister, but was unclear as to his appearance at his trial.
01:41:35
McNaughton suffering from delusions of persecution proclaimed the Tories route to get him.
01:41:40
The jury found him to be insane and not responsible for the magnitude of his crime.
01:41:45
He was to be sent to an institution. Concerned parliament members convened a panel of judges to explain this.
01:41:52
Their answer forms the McNaughton rules which colon which are this Jurors are to be informed that the accused is presumed to be to be sane as he or she is presumed to be innocent To establish a defense on the basis of insanity the accused must be disturbed enough to not know the nature and quality of what he or she did or if knowing it to know it was wrong
01:42:18
Further, if the accused labors under partial delusion only, he or she must be considered in the same situation as to responsibility, as if the facts with respect to the delusion were real.
01:42:31
These British rules, commonly called the insanity defense, have been adopted in America and Canada and have been tested hundreds of times since their inception.
01:42:41
In the cases of serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Edward Gein, I like when they call him Edward, Kenneth Bianchi and Jeffrey Dahmer, the atrocities committed have led defense lawyers to attempt to prove insanity.
01:42:54
While this strategy was successful in the case of the obviously dysfunctional Gein, most such defenses prove futile because the sociopathic personality, while deviant in his desires, is often not out of touch with reality.
01:43:09
And jurors usually decide that a killer functional enough to hide his or her crimes can be presumed to be aware of wrongdoing.
01:43:17
And I would just like to say that these are true crime series. This is from true crime series for serial killers and mass murderers.
01:43:24
by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collier. Ladies! And the art is by Paul Lee, Eclipse Enterprises,
01:43:32
just in case anybody wants to... Oh, it's in Forestville, which is right by Petaluma.
01:43:35
Who is Ed Gein again? Oh. Ed Gein is the one that basically killed several people,
01:43:43
women in his town, killed his mother. Psycho was based on him, as well as Silence of the Lambs.
01:43:49
He's the one that made furniture. He wore his mother's face at night. A nipple belt?
01:43:55
Yes. A nipple necklace. A nipple belt. You're right. Fuck. And he danced with his, like, different parts of his mother under the moonlight.
01:44:03
He was out of his goddamn mind. Do you guys hate the movie Copycat? You mean with Sandra Bullock?
01:44:13
No. What was the one with Harry Connick Jr. and Sigourney Weaver? Oh, I like that movie.
01:44:18
Oh, really? Yes. I always just thought that his serial killerness was so dorky. compared to actual serial killerness.
01:44:27
He hadn't refined his acting style as he had eventually done in Hope Floats. But I enjoy everything that's happening.
01:44:37
Also because it's in San Francisco, right? Yes, it is. And it's amazing. And Sigourney Weaver wears a lot of suits.
01:44:45
Sigourney Weaver and Holly Hunter. But anytime Karen is just on board for an actor,
01:44:52
her love of Sandy Bullock I'm just like when Sandy cries I cry how can Karen love this part
01:45:01
it's in me I want to do it I think you want someone to dig that out and I think Sandra Bullock does it for you
01:45:08
she does it but I have to say like not the proposal Sandy where she's kind of the proposal is so good
01:45:15
it's good but that's my Sandy is more eight weeks notice I will watch Eight Weeks Notice
01:45:24
anytime, wherever it is beginning, middle, or end. I feel the same way. I'm the same way with Steel Magnolias.
01:45:31
Oh, and Sleeping with the Enemy. I will fucking turn that on. That movie is so good.
01:45:37
Steel Magnolias just goes down so smooth. It's so smooth. It's a gin and tonic on a hot day.
01:45:44
It's wonderful. Do you want to go last because you're the guest? Okay. When it's terrible,
01:45:50
I feel like it will be an anti-climax. Okay, here we go. Okay. Richard Tingler Jr.
01:45:56
Yes. And it's like a really creepy drawing of like an alien trying to look like a man.
01:46:01
He looks like he has plucked his eyebrows without using a mirror. Totally does. Richard Tingler Jr. was an illegitimate child born in 1940.
01:46:13
Not his fault. I just want to go ahead and point that out. That's right. His mother often taunted him for his, quote, sinful birth and beat him.
01:46:19
What a fucking slut. I mean, she started it. I'm sorry. She totally started it. He escaped home by enlisting in the Air Force in 1959 while stationed in Alaska.
01:46:28
He went AWOL with a friend and was arrested for burglary. In February 1961, he was released in Chillicothe, Ohio.
01:46:35
Six months later, he was arrested on 13 counts of breaking and entering, sentenced to one
01:46:39
to 15 years in state prison, and was caroled in August 64. He broke parole with more burglars and returned to prison.
01:46:46
on September 16th of that year, four bodies, three male, were found shot to death
01:46:52
in a Cleveland park. One month later, he robbed a dairy bar in Columbus. What's a dairy bar?
01:46:59
It's just like people go there to drink milk, just take shots of milk. Just drink milk and play pool.
01:47:06
He strangled the manager into unconsciousness and shot two teenage workers. Identified by the manager,
01:47:11
he was indicted on six counts of murder and became one of the FBI's most wanted in November 68.
01:47:16
using the alias Don Williams. Tingler secured work at an Oklahoma farm. March 30th, 69.
01:47:24
His photograph was broadcast in an episode of the FBI. Oh my God, can we get fucking...
01:47:29
There was a show called The FBI in 1969, which we fucking need. We need it. What? How is no one...
01:47:37
Put it on the list. Video historians. Come on, let us have it. Museum of Television and Radio.
01:47:43
That's what I was just going to say. we can go to the Museum of Television and Radio and watch it.
01:47:46
Okay. Okay. Is this like, I don't know what that is. Is it like, um, it's a Beverly Hills.
01:47:50
Microfiche? Exactly. But with video. Uh he vanishes in April He shot and he shoots and robs a middle man then goes home to the farm Erratic behavior attracted the attention FBI agents arrested Tingler in May extradited to face charges in Ohio is convicted of murder and sentenced to die
01:48:08
His sentence was committed to life imprisonment when the death penalty was overturned.
01:48:13
Tingler. Kind of boring. I just wanted more insight. Like, I just, oh, like, his parents were unmarried is the only thing we got for why he did all of this.
01:48:24
And also just you shoot four people. Like, what was that situation? I feel like they make him seem diabolical.
01:48:29
And really, he's just a fucking like drifter who just like doesn't give who has no emotional
01:48:33
attachment to people. It's not that like. But do we know that? Like, what was that four person murder?
01:48:38
Yeah. It's just it doesn't sound like he's got he got any soul. He's missing a chip.
01:48:44
Yeah. Were there more drifters in the 60s? Yes. I feel like road car riders. Is that a thing?
01:48:51
You mean hippies? I feel like half the hippies were like I feel like half the hippies were just people were like
01:48:58
fucking great I get to do this and fuck hot hippie girls awesome hot runaways that's very true
01:49:03
I think so poor 70s runaways you stupid idiot this show is such a beautiful tribute to runaways
01:49:12
because I forget that they exist and then it feels like every other episode there's a 14 year old
01:49:16
girl who decides to strike out on her own well she either decides to strike out on her own or the cops go
01:49:22
I don't know. She ran away, but she'll come back. It's that old story. They make hippies
01:49:26
seem like such free spirits. And it's really just like kids from small towns who are like,
01:49:30
I want to go do a thing. And they're like, oh, shit. And then have to do terrible things
01:49:34
to get money and survive. And they're like, I made a fucking huge mistake. And there's
01:49:38
those videos of them dancing and having fun. It's like, no, you're having a terrible
01:49:42
trip around a bunch of sober people. I feel like the core difference between hippies and hipsters
01:49:48
was a graphic design degree from a decent school that allows you to like have that studio apartment in san francisco or you know oakland
01:49:57
or extended brooklyn yeah where you can be fine the difference is whether or not you choose to be
01:50:03
in the park right are you sleeping in the park or did you just walk down to the park to get high
01:50:08
right karen let me tell you the most beautiful san francisco story i have i was in the yes steven closure steven you include georgia okay so i was at i went to
01:50:20
the bathroom at the McDonald's that abuts Golden Gate Park. Oh, that's where the amoeba is.
01:50:26
Yes, exactly. Do you have Bay Area origins? Yes, I lived there for a while. Oh, okay. So I walked into
01:50:33
the bathroom and there was the most adorable twink covered in tracks. What's it going to be?
01:50:44
Covered in IV drug use tracks. He was shaving like the barely there beard that he had because he was an adorable twink.
01:50:53
What year? With 98 or like 2002. Oh, honey. And with a disposable razor. And then as he finished, he offered it to him.
01:51:08
He was like, do you want to shave? And I was like, oh, honey, baby. No, I'm good.
01:51:14
It was like, that's San Francisco. Like that is San Francisco. Especially in the late 90s.
01:51:21
Yes, it's very. You can't share razors. No. We told you. Not a thing. I want to keep talking about fucking San Francisco in the 90s, but that's another episode.
01:51:30
Should I read Lu Gong? That's for the end of 2017. Yeah, that's right. We're doing an old San Francisco episode.
01:51:37
Of just terrible stories of what a bummer it was. Me stealing toilet paper from bars.
01:51:43
Just a dark time. going to Berkeley and being scared to go into the city. The core question of my first years of stand-up were,
01:51:53
do I have 375 to get to the city? Oh my God. Lu Gong was born in 1963 in Beijing, China,
01:52:02
one of three children. His father was a clerk and his mother was a doctor. Good for them.
01:52:07
Feminism. That's right. That's not common. His math skills blossomed in junior high
01:52:12
and he won academic awards and eventual admission to Beijing University. upon graduation in 1985
01:52:17
he entered the University of Iowa to study physics oh this is a terrible like we're
01:52:23
taking like a Chinese guy to America's heartland to where all of our serial killers are
01:52:29
nothing happened right everything was fine he's the guy on the card though we'll see
01:52:32
upon graduation in 1985 University of Iowa in 1987 he took two roommates at his tiny apartment but
01:52:39
both found him slovenly and superior he was a loner bad tempered and not well liked. He became a graduate
01:52:45
assistant and qualified for a PhD program. Can I guess? Jesus. This guy's going to be a shooter.
01:52:51
That's my guess. Kill his teacher. For giving him a bad grade. In the summer of 1987, an IU professor
01:52:59
took Lugang to an international conference in Europe. Upon his return, he became disenchanted
01:53:03
with physics. That happens to all of us. And his scores began to fail. He also began to pay prostitutes
01:53:09
for companionship. Nothing wrong with that. Just hand-holding. In 1991, a large cash award he had hoped
01:53:17
for was granted instead to a rival. He was incensed and began to file complaints. He also
01:53:24
bought a gun. Bought a gun. Here we go. Bought a gun. He received his doctorate and still complained of a conspiracy
01:53:33
against him. No. Nope. None. No. Just go get tenure somewhere. In September 1991, Liu Gong closed out his savings
01:53:41
account, packed up his belongings, and sent them home. On November 1st, he walked into
01:53:45
a graduate seminar. He shot his professor. Oh, my God. It's like everybody wins on this
01:53:51
one And the professor protege I win He calmly reloaded walked into the department chairman office and killed him As students called 911 Lu Gong killed the university associate vice president The woman who had been handling the police How have we never heard about this
01:54:06
Poor administrative official. Oh my God. And wounded her secretary. Oh, I've been a secretary.
01:54:12
That sucks. Then he went to an empty... She doesn't even get like any of the glory of like,
01:54:18
I'm a professor of this, but she's all the same shit. She wanted to go home and watch fucking Nash Bridges
01:54:22
and have a fucking white wine. All she did was file. Then he went to an empty room and killed himself.
01:54:29
The six victim murder spree and suicide took 20 minutes. Wait, what year was it?
01:54:35
Like in the 80s? Was he one of the first? 91. Was he like one of the first college shooters, I wonder?
01:54:42
Oh, no. I mean, aside from college, I wonder, if it's not out of college, do they call it a college shooting?
01:54:48
Yeah, no, it was out of college. It was at the University of Iowa. Oh, my God. That was crazy.
01:54:53
That was crazy. oh god everything's the worst it always ends this way can we have a good thing because i'm really
01:55:00
like this week has been shitty because i'm looking at facebook too much and like reading
01:55:04
all these horrible fucking headlines and like fucking aleppo and all this crazy awful shit's
01:55:09
happening yeah let's talk about a good thing this week i don't have one do you guys have um i have a
01:55:14
fake good thing that is just me uh taking attempting to leverage your ridiculous success
01:55:19
and make it beneficial for me. But Georgia Hardstark is probably going to be guesting
01:55:23
on my podcast, Pop Rocket, in January. Oh, nice. I'm sorry. And also, let me be clear.
01:55:29
When I said to Karen, hey, maybe I could come on and explain some legal things. It was not just me trying to get on your astoundary successful podcast.
01:55:37
Oh, what's the point of the city? It was me. Like, look, when we all listen to podcasts,
01:55:42
we all want to yell back at the podcast, which is essentially the only reason I listen to podcasts.
01:55:47
It's the fun. It's the fun of it. You're making me look important and I'm going to fucking Instagram it.
01:55:53
It's great. We both win. You'll get to talk about murder things, but you'll also get to talk about
01:55:58
some fun non-murder things. I don't know anything about non-murder. Also, we have a little information now.
01:56:03
So going forward, whenever these things come up, at least we're going to be like,
01:56:06
I think this was that thing I was talking about. However, and we can like know what we're on.
01:56:11
That's exactly right. And we'll start wearing office outfits. I would say my good thing
01:56:17
for the week is that I am lucky enough, and I mentioned this on our last episode,
01:56:23
to be working on Guy Branham's new show for True TV called Talk Show, The Game Show.
01:56:29
And we sit in a room. It's actually very much like the My Favorite Murder family because we
01:56:35
sit in a room with Jamie Lee from our Bell House episode. She's the greatest. Our friend, Louie Katz, who is
01:56:43
so hilarious, and Chase Bernstein, who is a hilarious stand-up comic who is our writer's assistant and we sit in that room and we spend you know 45 minutes
01:56:55
working on the script we're supposed to get done relatively soon and then we spend the rest of the
01:57:00
day laughing our asses off and very actively talking about like it'll start the discussion
01:57:07
starts about what we need to figure out for the thing and it'll always end up in like some kind of
01:57:14
inner stand-up theorizing that is so hilarious and i just feel grateful that i have a job that
01:57:22
instead of draining me of my life blood it actually the time goes by so fast and it is so enjoyable
01:57:30
the opposite of stressful for fucking once it is the most fun and i i find so fascinating that
01:57:36
headspace where you're trying to find something to be depressed or scared or sad about like a friend
01:57:42
of mine was recently just like obsessing about the possibility that he might die and i'm like
01:57:46
you will die yeah but the thing is he's happy he's happy and he's trying to figure out a reason that
01:57:52
he doesn't deserve to be happy well it's scary to be happy so he's like imagining that we'll be
01:57:57
taken away from him and i think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic yeah with that
01:58:02
like that mindset of like that's where you're going right now and you don't really don't have
01:58:06
to i beat myself up about that a lot oh it's hard it's hard well also the good thing that we have is
01:58:12
that we're all full of sparkling wine, which is the most fun. Not me. I'm the opposite of full of
01:58:18
sparkling wine. But also the thing is, Guy keeps talking about where like he'll talk about in
01:58:24
preparation for when it all goes bad. Like you keep bringing that up to me and it's so hilarious
01:58:29
to me where it's like, we almost don't even have time for this all to go bad. It's going to be done
01:58:32
so quickly. Yeah. But I think a basic degree of paranoia is something any like the lovely thing
01:58:41
about LA is you've seen so many untalented people get amazing opportunities. And it's just so,
01:58:47
it's so weird. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I just think the most hilarious thing is
01:58:54
that the most negative person on the planet, Karen Kilgarib, who will scoff at anyone's sort
01:58:59
of little project that her second podcast is a rousing success. It goes against her personality.
01:59:07
is what you're saying? Yes, it completely goes against her personality. Like, Karen Kilgariff
01:59:11
is a person who's, like, deepest soul is going, a second podcast. I love that. I tried not to start it,
01:59:20
but I was so persistent. We really just had, we had to make it happen. This was delightful.
01:59:27
Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for letting me cross over into the world
01:59:31
of My Favorite Murder because at 50 episodes or how many episodes is it? This will be 49, I think.
01:59:38
Yeah, it's been beautiful being taken through those 100 stories. And it's very fun to get to cross over and get to play with you guys.
01:59:50
We always say how nice it is when people like the podcast. Yeah, that's exciting.
01:59:54
So that's really cool. And if you guys haven't already, please listen to the podcast podcast.
02:00:00
pop rocket it is so awesome they they talk about pop culture stuff um but it's a it's a
02:00:06
it's a discussion as informed as this no it feels like it's very um it felt very produced to me when
02:00:15
i was on it where i was almost a little bit like i don't know if i have the right answer and you're
02:00:19
just like i'm asking you your opinion it's like everybody felt very um they had big opinions about
02:00:26
things. I was like, I don't know if I have opinions. You just got to get loud and get sparkly
02:00:30
whined. That's right. I can't. No. Yeah, thank you. Thanks to Stephen Ray Morris
02:00:36
of the Percast for being our amazing audio engineer. He's who I'm thankful for this week because when I go out of town,
02:00:42
which is a fucking anxiety ridden thing for me because I hate leaving my cats, the fact that he
02:00:48
now takes care of them fills my heart with joy because they love him and it makes it
02:00:52
less anxious for me to go away. That's awesome. You got one. Yeah. Yes. very good um you guys i don't know go to my favorite murder and do stuff yeah go on oh my
02:01:02
god there's games and puzzles um and you can join the raffle uh it's gonna be so awesome
02:01:09
thanks you guys for listening happy new year happy new year thank you for being here with us
02:01:14
all through 2016 yeah we've had a great time 2017 we're gonna fucking pepper spray
02:01:18
you know it a good thing yeah i mean in a good way it not a positive we gonna fucking kick it We going to kick it You know what I mean Like we going to fucking pepper spray it Okay Let assault 2017
02:01:29
We're going to make it our bitch. We're going to take keys between the knuckles.
02:01:34
Right. To 2017. To 2017's balls. Thank you, guys. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
02:01:43
Bye. Bye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Want a cookie? There we go. You guys actually do that?
02:01:53
I always assume there was just like one track of it that was used every time. Why do you think he sits out here?
02:01:58
Because he fucking knows what's going to happen. He comes over here and he knows.
02:02:05
Oh, that's fun. And we also got into some playing cards, some true crime cards that Stephen got us.
02:02:09
I still have those. I mean, we were really working. We were really producing this show in a whole new way where we're like, I guess we'll bullshit
02:02:16
ask you questions and then we better end with something else. We had those cards.
02:02:20
It's like a variety show all of a sudden. Yeah, we did it. We can produce whatever.
02:02:25
Yeah, thanks, Stephen. Thanks, Stephen, for giving us those cards. So this episode, as we told you, was originally titled The Great Guy Law Time New Year Spectacular.
02:02:36
I like that, though, a lot. Yeah. I think it's good. But we could also call it Don't Half-Ass It, which I don't think we did.
02:02:43
I think we whole it on this episode I mean we asked all around You know God delivered it At one point I reassure Guy this is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right So we could name it being wrong is so right
02:02:56
Because it's fucking true. Yeah. Then dying utterance. I say that. I say it should be the name of the episode because I'm like, I love that phrase.
02:03:04
Yeah. I do love that it's admissible in court. Like that idea. As it should be. Very compelling.
02:03:10
I mean, how many more legal concepts are there out there that we don't know about?
02:03:14
Yeah, that were made up in like the 1950s and make no fucking sense. But like some random person used it to get off.
02:03:19
And then lawyers since that time are like, may I quote? Yeah. Dying utterance V the people.
02:03:25
Hey, you know what? We're going to find out next time Guy is a guest on this fucking show.
02:03:29
That's right. We can get all those legal. Do you have legal questions? Are you up against it?
02:03:35
Write in and let us know. Let us know your legal questions in the comments. Name names.
02:03:40
No fucking name. Name names. Fucking give us phone numbers. and we'll call an ass.
02:03:45
It'll be so much fun. It's going to be so good. All right. Well, that was the rewind for this episode.
02:03:49
It's like rewinding a weird episode is a weird experience. It is. Yeah, we don't have much to say
02:03:54
because we fucking said it all in the episode. Because we invited someone else that would say it all
02:03:59
so we wouldn't have to. Exactly. And we did it. And it worked. It was great. All right.
02:04:03
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