489 - We Are Your Baby | My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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This is exactly right. and listen now. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.

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10-10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.

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A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics.

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I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery that may or may not have been political.

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It may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Hey, everybody. It's Georgia and Karen, and we're so excited to announce our newest podcast on the Exactly Right Network.

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It's a show called Trust Me. It explores cults, manipulation, and extreme belief systems, and it's hosted by Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth.

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They're smart, funny, insightful women who also happen to be cult survivors themselves.

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They'll be talking to other survivors, experts, and former believers to unpack how cults work, how people get pulled in, and how to get out.

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So stick around after this episode and listen to the trailer for Trust Me, our brand new cult podcast.

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And after you listen, head over to Trust Me's feed and please hit follow so you can be there for their exactly right premiere on Wednesday, July 30th.

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And look for Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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You're going to love this one. Trust me. Nice. Goodbye. Goodbye. My favorite murder

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Are you a girly that likes to slay? Well, slay we must. Stand on business right in front of us with your ears.

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We stan you. I have to have my hand on my hips like this to do my character. It's a very like modern.

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Yeah. I'm trying to be modern. I don't think that's sus at all. Oh, God. I hate it.

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I hate everything. They must hate it. They must love it. Here's the thing. is this similar to when well you won't be able to answer this I always forget you're 10 years

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younger than me when the valley girl song came out oh yeah and everybody all of a sudden overnight

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started talking like a valley girl yeah it drove my parents insane and I wonder if it's just like

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that same kind of thing where to us we're like oh my god we like we have to talk like this like it

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was that thing where we didn't understand there was an option to to remove yourself from the trend

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because you kind of weren't, the trend was for you. You were in the trend. Yeah.

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Shit, man. Are we going to get into fucking sociology now? Because I have no clue.

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Let's light up this bong and get into our version of sociology. See, they don't even have, it would be a vape.

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They don't even have bongs anymore. Like that's how fucking bad we are. They're like, we don't know what that is.

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We don't do bongs. It's actually bad for the environment. It's a fossil fuel. Yeah.

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Bongs. That's right. But speaking of, and can I bring it down completely? Oh, yes.

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Are you watching One Night in Idaho? No. The new documentary about... About the Kohlberger murder?

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Yeah. No, I have not seen it. It's so heart-wrenching. And it's by our friend Liz Garbus.

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Oh, wow. She directs it. She's one of the directors. Incredible. So, of course, it's incredible and heartbreaking.

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Heartbreaking, heartbreaking, but, like, just really well done and not... Oh, I gotta watch it.

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You know, gross. Right. You gotta watch it. That story, I mean, still. Yeah, well, you know, he just fucking pled guilty.

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Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Thank God. Thank God those families don't just sit through the trial and the appeals and the, you know.

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And hearing all of those. And the kids that lived that like people are trying to somehow.

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That's the whole first episode is the kids getting interviewed. They interview everyone.

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Oh, my God. And that's the whole first episode. And it's just like, you know, you couldn't have found a more innocent place to have this happen.

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Right. So it's really heartbreaking. But, you know, as a true crime doc, it's good.

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Speaking of, we were going to talk about Murderland. That's right. The book. Yes.

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So the book just came out. It's called Murderland, Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers by Caroline Fraser.

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And it basically about the thing we talked about which is that between 1920 and the 90s when leaded gasoline was legal and abundant the rise in violent crime follows the same track of how much lead is in the air

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And so it talks about all these serial killers, mainly in the Pacific Northwest, because there were all these smelting, just completely immoral manufacturers of arsenic and lead and just dumping everything into the sky and into the fucking water.

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And all these serial killers came out of it. Wow. It's so fascinating and heartbreaking.

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It's like I'm just thinking of just like, why aren't there more or are there more we don't know about?

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Or did they go? Was it like the serial killing switch flipped in some people, but then other things flipped in other people?

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Probably. I mean, well, in general, it just made everyone's IQ lower. It just kind of made like three generations of people less, you know, I can't think of the word because I'm part of that generation.

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That's us, baby. That's us. Because I was born in 1980. So I'm fucked. I mean, my parents grew up in L.A.

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So like that's just there's just that's all city. It's lead in the air. And also then the smog situation where it keeps it in like breathing environment.

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So if you're into history at all, I think that Murderland is a really great book.

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You're going to love it. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. I want it. OK, you can have it when I'm done.

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I'm almost done. OK, good. Yeah, I can't wait. Well, speaking of the Pacific Northwest and other regions of this nation.

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Right. Yeah. We announced last week that we are going on tour. Now, we are recording this episode, obviously, Monday, four days before it actually airs.

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So we don't know what the status of the tickets will be when you are hearing this.

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So we can't really tell you what's going on. But if you might still want a ticket, give it a try.

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Go over to MyFavoriteMurder.com forward slash live. All the cities, there's pages for every city there.

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And you can go on and see if they're sold out or not. Yeah, get those last tickets.

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come to the late show. They're always weird. Oh, and we should tell people that the late show and

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the early show are not going to be the same stories. I think we didn't tell people that.

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And so they don't know to get both tickets. Stay out all night. Yeah. We haven't done same story

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two shows since our first tour where we found out by people asking us and then being overtly

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disappointed in our faces. Are you doing the same story for the second show? Yes. Remember that?

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I think it was Seattle. No, because we said it on the stage and there was a groan. Yeah.

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we didn't know we're like oh so we double work double work okay sounds good for that night same

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dress though same i'm not fucking changing there's no fucking way we're changing so sorry if you

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wanted to see a different dress don't get a ticket but if you want to hear a different story get a

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ticket for the late show and the early show we're immediately making this a negative thing when in

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fact uh people were very excited when we made this announcement we actually asked chan and our social

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media manager hey do you mind co-finding us some funny comments oh yeah stuff that people said so

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My first one that made me laugh so hard is Courtney on Instagram said, I'm skipping my son's toddler swim class tomorrow just for the fan cult pre-sale.

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Oh, my gosh. Send him with someone else, though. Don't send him alone. Too bad. No, that baby will not learn to swim because of us.

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Oh, I can hear him in his therapist's office in 20 years. My mom. She loves true crime.

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This one says I'm canceling my honeymoon from Katie Vem on Instagram. Thank you, Katie.

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This one, Wild Lou from Instagram. This must be in reference to the video that went out.

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It says, do you stare each other dead in the eyes when you talk? It looks like it in these recordings.

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So I need to know. We just talked about that. We had to like record something that was supposed to be a promo.

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And we're like, it's weird if we're saying this to each other. But we do stare each other.

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Sell it. Say it. Say it. Say it. Say it. Have to. What if I was just slightly turned out like this?

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So anyway. George, I agree. I mean, maybe you're looking at my forehead and I just don't know it.

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Yeah, it could be. This maybe is one of the best ones off Instagram by The Wild Pine.

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Not me wondering if I can hold my baby in so I can make the Boston date on my due date.

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Been waiting for this longer than her arrival. Here's my pitch. Have a baby at our live show.

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I mean, that would be epic. It would be quite something. You can't pay for press like that.

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We're the real baby. We are your baby. We're the baby. that baby's new. There has been a baby at our live shows before. So just, you know, make a little

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baby in headphones. So cute. We also had a lot of people from small towns being angry that we're

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not coming to their small town, which we love. Bring that passionate rage to us. I love it.

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Okay. Well, there wasn't really Paula McCambridge on Instagram said, I sure hope you're coming to a

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tiny little town in Michigan's remote upper peninsula, namely the historic Calumet Theater.

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So Paula lives in Calumet, Michigan. That has, it's a town of 676 people. And they'll all be there.

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Hey, guys. At the early show. They have to come to every show four times. Yeah. Yeah, we've got Savannah.

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We know you want us to come. Australia. Lots of Canada. Apologies. This is, you know, this is us dipping our toe and just kind of giving it a shot.

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Canada's like, we can't come to your country anymore. Yeah. Our government warned against it.

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Right. Also, Anna Rose with two A's at the bottom and two E's at the end says, want to make a quick trip to Okinawa, Japan?

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Kay, thanks. Bye. Yes. Yes, we do. Yes. But I can't imagine that's going to sell out.

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And then Kay Taylor Gore said, please come remotely near Mississippi. You can even come to my house if you want.

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That's nice. That's a tiny little. Next door, just people's houses. Yeah. That's Maria Bamford did that.

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Did you ever see that special? No. Oh, it's the best comedy special. It's literally like 12 people sitting around a living room and it's kind of dark and she's up there.

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And she just does like a tour of people's houses. That's so brilliant. She's so brilliant.

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She's so funny. I see her at the dog park a lot and I'm always like, hey. She's the best.

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God she such a good comic Well that was fun Yeah So thanks you guys for caring and being excited We are too Yeah But tell me look me in the eye when you say that Oh thanks guys Guys it means so much to us

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We appreciate it. Wide eyes. Telling each other only. Oh, I saw a TikTok about someone who was like, if there's a man that you feel is somehow

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trying to intimidate you, don't turn away. Don't try to get away. It's like the best thing you can do is make eye contact and widen your eyes a little bit.

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I just look super terrifying. That's good. I like that. I could do that in my sleep.

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Right. Let the predator know. Well, my favorite one, though, is that is when she is being followed by this dude and he says something to her and she turns to him and goes, you can see me.

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You can see him and starts chasing him. You can see me. Can you how can you see me?

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Like she's a ghost or something. And I'm just like, wow. Yeah, that's that's fucking ballsy.

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That's creative. It's effective. It's not. Yeah, it's hilarious. Going for it. Yeah.

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Oh, speaking of which. This is a complete left turn. Where are you going? Over here.

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Bye. Bye, Georgia. Karen's turning. She's getting something. This is a belated birthday gift for you.

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For me? Yes. Okay. I just want to, we have to point out that the ribbons are ketchup and mustard color.

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Oh. Is that on purpose? Is that a hint? Well. Oh, my God. Thank you. Okay. You said something a couple episodes ago when you're liking my birthday, and I was like,

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Oh, shit. Because the Italian hand was huge. I held on to that for like three months, though. It wasn't specifically for your birthday.

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I was like, it's coming up soon enough. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's a hot dog phone.

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It's a hot dog phone. Oh, my God. Where did you find this? Is it vintage? Our writer, Alison Agosti, found that online and was like, I don't know.

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It feels like you never gave Georgia anything for her birthday. Holy fucking shit.

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It's like a 1980. And do you know, this was used, this is Newman's phone on Seinfeld.

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Newman, the irritating neighbor. Yeah, of course. He gets in trouble one time. There's an episode and he answers his phone and that's the phone he answers.

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Honestly, this might be the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. And it's got its original box, which is like so big, you know?

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Yeah. I'm acting like I had anything to do with it. but Allison was like, don't you want to give this to Georgia?

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I'm like, yes, I do. And when was the last time you held a fucking phone in your hand?

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Like, hang up. Like people, you know, it's like weird. Slam this thing down. Hello, Oscar Mayer.

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Dude. It's so weird. I love it. And you can make it either tone or pulse when you dial.

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I remember the, oh my God. There's a redial R button. Shit, dude. This is great.

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This is amazing. Thank you. Can we put it here for now? You're welcome. Oh my God, yes.

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hot dog phone and we should get this made into a real landline and eventually people can call in

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on the hot dog phone like one call an episode thank you that is like a fucking amazing like

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i'm speechless yay okay good i'm glad because the italian hand so much better than hamburger

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fuck the hamburger phone it's a hot dog yeah so much better i really when i unwrapped that italian

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hand i was like oh my god i don't even know i don't even know how i'm gonna match this thing

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it's so epic and perfect thank you you did it yeah thank you thank you allison yeah oh my god she

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had her eye she had her eye out she was like how do we make this all work it's vintage it's in its

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original box like that is like that's a shit kiss not an italian hand gesture it's a yes it's a

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positive yeah um but also who was the person that bought that and never fucking touched it someone

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bought it as a joke for their grandma or something. Oh, yeah. Right? God, thank you.

00:15:45

Because your grandma always ate hot dogs. Yeah, that's right. Did your grandma have a hot dog phone or did someone you know have a hot dog phone growing

00:15:51

up? Tell us about it at My Favorite Murder at Gmail. We want to know. Call us at 1-800-H-O-T-D-O-G.

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No, comment and tell us if you had a hot dog phone on this post. Okay. By the way, we have an Exactly Right network.

00:16:03

It's a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Where the Exactly Right shows go.

00:16:08

Right. That's right. Here's some information about them. Like, for example, we have a podcast called Ghosted by Roz Hernandez.

00:16:13

And this week, Roz is gagged and goosebumped for the arrival of Canadian ghost hunting duo Luke Hutchie and Matthew Finlan.

00:16:21

They share spooky origin stories and behind the scenes moments with their celebrity ghost hunting web series Ghosting with Luke Hutchie and Matthew Finlan.

00:16:30

So fun getting the professionals in. I love it. I mean, Roz must have been freaking out.

00:16:34

On Do You Need a Ride, Karen over there and Chris. Welcome comedian and musician Paul Dankey.

00:16:39

Love him. I'm the best. I'm at a party and they talk about disappointed dads, bathtub wine and more.

00:16:44

I will. I love Paul Dinky. He truly is one of the funniest stand up comedians. He's the guy that can play all over this great country of ours and do amazing because he's

00:16:54

just a guy that like you want to talk to at a party. He's very likable. And he is one of the first friends I made when I went back to stand up after I.

00:17:02

Yeah. Like my big return to stand up, which was so humiliating. Yeah. And I made like he and I met at a show and it was like we were just immediately best friends.

00:17:11

Love him. He's great. He's the best. And over on the knife off record, Hannah and Peisha sit down with Anna Sinfield, who is the producer and writer of the podcast The Girlfriends.

00:17:21

And they're talking about telling stories where women win. Anna previews the new season of the show The Girlfriends Jailhouse Lawyer.

00:17:29

And Hannah shares a legal update on the Brenda Andrew case. That is such a great podcast.

00:17:34

So good. it's so compelling. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Your husband is not who you think he is.

00:17:41

Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro

00:17:47

and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of

00:17:53

Family Secrets And just then we felt the plane turn in the air So much so that the bags that were under people seats just kind of flew into the aisle Each week we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy how it shapes our identities and relationships and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves

00:18:14

My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything, and me pretending like everything was fine.

00:18:24

he kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off.

00:18:30

And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app,

00:18:35

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Chris Fairbanks. And I'm Karen Kilgariff.

00:18:42

We host Do You Need a Ride? The mobile comedy podcast that answers the question,

00:18:46

what does it sound like when we drive our comedian friends around the wild streets of Los Angeles?

00:18:50

Yes, every week we pick up a hilarious guest, maybe run some errands, share some laughs, and our dreams. Like when Martha Kelly shared her

00:18:58

career pivot. I want to become a influencer of divorced moms whose kids have gone off to college

00:19:05

who've decided they're going to start living life for themselves. Or the time Baron Vaughn got

00:19:10

distracted by the majestic scenery. Then there's a freaking deer right there on the side of the road.

00:19:15

Oh, that's great. Eating freaking road grass. Road grass. I wish you said glass.

00:19:21

New episodes drop every Monday on the Exactly Right Network. Listen to Do You Need a Ride on the iHeartRadio app,

00:19:27

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. You're welcome. You know the famous author Roald Dahl.

00:19:35

He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? Neither did I.

00:19:42

You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast The Secret World of Roald Dahl.

00:19:46

All episodes are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.

00:19:51

What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, I was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl.

00:19:58

Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, is that it?

00:20:06

I think that's it. I think I'm first. So for my story, we're going to go to the summer of 1973.

00:20:15

We're going to go to Rome. Have you been? I have. Of course you have. I was recently.

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Right. I actually for my last vacation last fall I went to Italy and then we've been joking about me doing a video for the fan call where I show everybody my pictures in a real boring slideshow style.

00:20:32

Yeah. And narrate them because they're just they're the pictures everyone has when they go to Italy.

00:20:36

It's called Instagram. I don't know if you've met it. I have not at all. I don't know her.

00:20:41

I don't know that man. All right. So we're in summer 1973. We're in Rome and a 16 year old boy vanishes off the streets.

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It's not just any boy, though. It's not just any normal kid. He was born John Paul Getty III, heir to the vast Getty oil fortune, of course.

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What follows is a bizarre tale of ransom, severed ears, and a billionaire grandfather who refuses to pay up.

00:21:08

Can I just, first of all, I really love this story. I'm very excited you're about to tell it.

00:21:13

My dad loves to talk about how cheap Getty was. No way. because he can't believe that someone would be that rich and that he goes

00:21:22

you know he goes do you know that uh there was no phone to use in that house you had to use a

00:21:28

pay phone i have that in my story i'm so sorry no it's true like that's like everyone knows that

00:21:32

apparently hilarious like you're that rich and you put a pay phone in your castle yeah like it's a

00:21:39

castle what what are you keeping it well i'll tell you even worse shit about this guy but we can

00:21:45

argue it because there is like an excuse for it that he gives that I'm like, I hear you,

00:21:51

but you're still a dick. Okay. And so the main sources for the story are a 1974 article from

00:21:55

Rolling Stone by Joe Esterhaus, who is the screenwriter of such famous films as Flashdance,

00:22:01

Basic Instinct, and your favorite movie of all time? Showgirls. That's right. Was he the screenwriter of all those? Okay. I thought he was a director.

00:22:11

All right. Let's talk about J. Paul Getty. He amassed his fortune through the Getty Oil Company,

00:22:15

which he founded in the 1950s, which kind of has a through line to that Murderland book, you know,

00:22:20

just people using Earth's resources to get wealthy and make other people work hard and then die early for them.

00:22:27

Yeah. And when they get the science back that, hey, maybe your invention isn't that great for people,

00:22:32

they're like, too late now. They literally hide it. They literally hide it. This book is a little infuriating, I must say.

00:22:38

I bet. Anyway, that's not this. This is all this. This is not this. This is something else.

00:22:42

But his father had been involved in the oil industry in the early 20th century. You know, the rich get richer.

00:22:49

People in L.A., of course, know the Getty family name thanks to the sprawling Getty Museum campus.

00:22:54

We all have been to the Getty. It's an art museum housed in several palatial buildings that are owned by the family.

00:23:00

And we also know Balthazar Getty, the actor. Oh, such a beautiful young man. The kidnapped boy's son.

00:23:06

Yes. The kidnapped son's son. The grandson, some call them. But the kidnapped kid is his son, his actual son.

00:23:15

Right. Balthazar Getty is his son, right? Yeah. Okay. Take that out. No, that was fascinating.

00:23:23

I don't know where we are. Okay. So the J and this is confusing. The J and J Paul Getty stands for Jean, like the French version of John.

00:23:32

He names his own son, John Paul Getty II. And then John Paul Getty II names his own son, John Paul Getty III.

00:23:38

But most people refer to the third, the kid. as Paul. So we're going to call him that through the rest of this just for simplicity's sake.

00:23:45

If it gets confusing, just let me know. So grandpa, J. Paul Getty, gets married five

00:23:49

different times and has five children. By the 1970s, when our story takes place,

00:23:54

he is quite literally the richest man in the world. Oh, wow. With an estimated fortune of a

00:24:00

out you're gonna laugh at this and we can talk about it okay one billion dollars oh which is

00:24:05

adorable in today's money that's why everything is so fucked so how much would that be in today's

00:24:12

money 70s billion 70s 1 billion 1 billion is it 70s isn't that long ago is it yes it is 50 years

00:24:22

um 50 billion seven i knew you're gonna get it wrong because it's like too small it should be

00:24:28

bigger, but it's not. But however, this is really interesting that Ali let me know. She said,

00:24:34

as an aside, the current wealthiest man in the world, Elon Musk, is worth about $381 billion.

00:24:42

In fact, a fortune of that $7 billion today wouldn't even crack the list of the top 300

00:24:48

richest people. And then Ali wrote, just to give you an idea of how much has changed in terms of

00:24:53

wealth disparity over the past 50 years. And they're like, I love you. So that is absurd and

00:24:57

insane and unnecessary and gross. That's what happens when you deregulate and you buy up all

00:25:03

the representatives and everything goes fucking crooked. Right. And and OK, back to our story.

00:25:11

She wrote back to our story because she probably knew we'd go off on a tangent. Yeah. I'm so sorry.

00:25:15

But why did I fucking put a sweater on at the beginning of this? I don't know. Yeah. I'm sorry.

00:25:19

Always more AC. We're over 40. So sorry. So sorry. Thank you. OK. So in addition to being

00:25:25

enormously wealthy. Jay Paul is known for being extremely cheap, I guess, which was news back then

00:25:30

that everyone knew about. Yeah. Well, I'm sure it's what a fun thing to talk about. You have it all

00:25:35

and you're penny pinching. Totally. Everyone loves that. And the most extreme example is that he

00:25:40

had a castle outside of London called Sutton Place, literally a former residence of Henry VIII,

00:25:46

and he put in a payphone so his guests wouldn't charge him for long distance phone calls,

00:25:52

which were expensive at the time. Yeah, a dime. No, no, no. Remember calling long distance when you were a kid and you got in trouble

00:25:57

because you called your best friend from camp? Oh, long distance. I get you. Yeah.

00:26:02

But I know. I know. I know. I know. You're like, it was expensive. I'm like, a dime isn't expensive.

00:26:09

It's a great debate. A dime in today's money wouldn't be. But here's a darker illustration of how he was so cheap.

00:26:17

He had a son with his fifth wife, a woman named Louise Getty, who was known by the name Teddy.

00:26:22

Their son, Timmy, is diagnosed with a brain tumor when he's six years old in the early 50s.

00:26:28

It causes him to go blind. J-Paul scolds Teddy for her spending on his medical treatments,

00:26:34

says she spent too much on them. Yep. Teddy dies from his illness, sadly, when he's 12 years old.

00:26:41

And J-Paul does not attend the funeral, saying he's too busy with work. So it's basically, it's basically,

00:26:48

what's his name in The Simpsons, Monty? Oh, yeah, Burns? Mr. Burns. Yeah. Think of him. Yeah. I mean, either he's a complete sociopath or he's making those

00:26:58

decisions. And then when the like effects of those decisions come up, he's like, I can't look at that

00:27:03

or deal with that. OK, you're being kind. Trying to figure it out. How the fuck do you have all

00:27:08

that money? And that's the way you're living your life. Totally. Totally. You're miserable then.

00:27:12

You're electing to be miserable. Your life isn't happy. And so what's the fucking point? Yeah.

00:27:17

Those are the people that like on their deathbed, they're like, I wish I had. And it's always something they could have done, you know, spend more time with my family.

00:27:24

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we all knew that. Spend less time with dickheads. Did you see that?

00:27:28

Have you seen that meme? It's a guy with a strong Australian accent who says spend less time with your kids.

00:27:33

Oh, yeah. And he's like, spend less time with dickheads. But the guy thinks he's safe.

00:27:37

Okay. Stop it. Okay. Focus. Focus. So Paul the son, the teenager that we're talking about at the center of the story, is born in 1956 to Eugene Getty, you know, the second.

00:27:47

And a woman named Gail Harris, she's a San Francisco socialite. Hey. I wonder if she knew your family.

00:27:52

She has two really good friends with my mom. Maybe your grandma cleaned her house.

00:27:56

Yeah, for real. I was going to say, there's no socialites crossing over with the Kilgaris or the Pat Knights family.

00:28:02

She was called in as a caterer one night for the party. Literally. No, I'm not. That sounds insulting.

00:28:07

Maybe she cleaned her. Maybe your grandma cleaned her house. Your grandma was a.

00:28:10

My grandma was a maid. A maid. Absolutely. So I'm not being an asshole. Yeah. Not in the least.

00:28:15

Thank you. And the family moves to Rome when Paul is two years old. And, of course, Paul is born into a life of enormous privilege, but it's not a particularly happy one, as none of us are surprised to hear.

00:28:26

He's a sensitive child. He just immediately is aware of the disconnect between his family and everyone else around him.

00:28:33

Spends a lot of time alone and says he has absolutely no fond childhood memories.

00:28:39

Oh, no. I was abused and I have fond childhood memories. You know what I mean? Yes.

00:28:47

Like, it's so cool. No, usually it's a mix, you know. Yeah. But that's absolutely awful.

00:28:54

Also, it makes sense if you already are disconnected, if you are like the uber wealthy anyway.

00:28:59

Because the only kids you meet are like, yeah, the people who work for you, their children, and they have to be nice to you or they have to come to your party.

00:29:05

And they just don't really like that creepy. Sadness. Sad thing. Also, he didn't have any dimes to make phone calls with.

00:29:14

Right. And like, yeah, woe is woe is the little rich boy. We know like just just bear with us for this story.

00:29:20

But I think like if you're going to come in hard for that argument, it's like but quality of life is not as we've all learned.

00:29:26

It's like those people. Elon Musk spends a lot of his time on Twitter fighting with people.

00:29:31

He could literally buy himself a whale and ride it around in the ocean if he wanted to.

00:29:36

Yeah, but I'd rather be lonely than starving, you know. True. Right. Well, I don't know.

00:29:42

sometimes you're like partying or starving but you're like how many parties did you go to

00:29:45

in your 20s we were just kind of like maybe I'll steal some you're saying that because you were starving

00:29:49

throughout your 20s literally and in deep deep debt and going to a lot of parties

00:29:53

and I basically was like this is better than having any money in my bank account we had a really good time in our 20s respectively Yeah we did Okay Wow What are we talking about I don know

00:30:05

Is this problematic? And the kids these days, no. But he loves reading. He loves hiding away with a book.

00:30:11

He reads about oceanographers. He just loves hiding away with a book. That's his childhood.

00:30:16

In 1966, when he's 10, Paul's parents separate and his father moves out of the country.

00:30:22

The two never spent much time together, but at this point their contact becomes extremely limited.

00:30:25

It seems like the dad and the families are not in it to win it. Yeah. So as a teenager, Paul, not surprisingly, has behavioral issues.

00:30:33

He bounces from school to school. He has issues with any authority figure. And his signature move was to make himself throw up on the desk in class.

00:30:43

I'm sorry. I mean, that's aggressive. It's wild. Yeah. My cousin Stevie used to hold his breath until he passed out when he didn't get what he wanted.

00:30:53

Holy shit. And he would do it all the time. Oh my. Why haven't I been using that?

00:30:58

I know, right? That's good. It's pretty. It's a wild one. But that's like intentionally throwing up.

00:31:02

Yeah. That's pretty. That's like a, that's a sign. Stevie's thing was more internal. It's like he did it to himself.

00:31:08

Yeah. But that's, you're doing it to everyone else. Totally. So gross. However, he's still actually popular, surprisingly, with other students because they agree with him that this sucks enough to make yourself throw up on.

00:31:18

Who knows what the story is there? Yeah, maybe they just thought it was cool. Yeah.

00:31:23

Despite these major issues, Paul is actually his grandfather, his dick of a grandfather's favorite grandchild.

00:31:28

And J. Paul tells him that repeatedly. And then around this time, Paul's dad, Eugene, who left, marries another woman.

00:31:35

Her name is Talitha Pole. And she dies tragically young at the age of 31 in 1971, maybe from a heroin overdose, maybe cardiac arrest due to the mixture of alcohol and barbiturates.

00:31:47

It's like a little suspish, a little sus. Oh, yeah. And so all this is to say that in 1973, Paul is now 16 years old.

00:31:55

He's incredibly privileged and his life has also been incredibly chaotic. He's a cutie pie.

00:32:02

He's got the like long 70s curly hair. What was that like? Name some heartthrobs from the 70s.

00:32:09

Andy Gibb, Leif Garrett. He's got Leif Garrett vibes slash what was the other one who was the sibling, all the siblings?

00:32:16

On Eight is Enough? No. And like their band, they all had a band. The Osmonds. Osmonds.

00:32:24

Oh. Donnie. Right? Donnie Osmond. Is that right? He's the one that had the big teeth and he's Mormon.

00:32:29

Well, here, look at his face. He's got Donnie Osmond vibes. Kind of Leif. He's got that like cute.

00:32:35

Yes. He's cute. And he's kind of like he actually looks like Danny Bonaduce from the Partridge family.

00:32:40

Is that who you were thinking? Probably all of the above. He's kind of a mix of all of them.

00:32:44

Yeah. He's like a cute little cutie pie. He looks like a sweet little face. Yes.

00:32:48

He looks like the kind of boy that you would pick because you would think he might like.

00:32:52

It's not like he's dashing. And he looks like he's going to be so hot when he's older, too.

00:32:57

Like he has. Right. Yeah. Because he has almost like a poetic winsome kind of face.

00:33:02

Yeah. Totally. hmm don't get sad his mother looks like julie christie oh yeah okay anyway oh no i know his

00:33:12

grandpa looks like monty burns give me a dime you know who you know who played him in the movie that

00:33:16

came out recently donald sutherland yes i saw it but who did who did christopher plumber play

00:33:23

christopher plumber oh it did christopher plumber play it not donald sutherland i think

00:33:28

yeah but he looks like donald sutherland but you know kevin spacey was cast originally

00:33:33

And that's the movie that they had to stop and redo because of the allegations against Kevin Spacey.

00:33:39

And so Christopher Plummer took his place. Oh, that's amazing. And got nominated for an Oscar.

00:33:43

The movie's called All the Money in the World. Oh, okay. Did you see that? No. I'm thinking of the one they made on FX.

00:33:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that was Donald Sutherland because I just remember the fucking phone.

00:33:54

The phone with the, like he made a normal phone into a pay phone. Yeah. He looks like Donald Sutherland.

00:34:01

Yeah. And Christopher Plummer. He's living at this point in an apartment with friends at 16 in Rome, not really going to school, partying with celebrities in fucking Rome like Jack Nicholson and Faye Dunaway.

00:34:14

There's a huge disco scene in Rome. Like, take me there. Can you imagine? In the 80s?

00:34:19

In the 70s, early 70s. Oh, shit. Everything is a go. Also, the people there are so good looking.

00:34:26

Are they? I bet. Everyone. They just are. They're chic and good-looking in the day-to-day.

00:34:34

When he's not out partying, he mostly hangs out in the Piazza Navona. Did you go there?

00:34:40

Probably. It's a popular tourist destination in the center of Rome with this famous fountain.

00:34:45

Dude, did I tell you my Trevi Fountain story really quick? It's not Trevi Fountain, but it's there.

00:34:50

Oh, it's a different one? It's a different fountain, but yes. No, you didn't tell me.

00:34:53

Just that it was blocked off when we were there because they were redoing everything for the Jubilee.

00:34:59

But people, of course, still went and stood in front of the fence that was in front of it while they were cleaning it.

00:35:04

And somebody near the front tried to throw a coin over the fence so they could still, even though it was like drained and stuff,

00:35:14

but they ended up throwing it backwards accidentally and just hitting somebody else.

00:35:19

That's good luck. It's so funny. It was so hilarious. The person in the back got so mad where they're like,

00:35:24

these fucking tourists. Like there's so many tourists. Oh, my God. It was wild. But how was the Bezos wedding, though?

00:35:30

Oh, my God. I loved it. I love Kim's outfit. Kim? Kim Kardashian. She was all over that thing.

00:35:37

OK, we're back. So I did not go to Jeffrey Bezos. She wasn't even invited. He is not talking to me anymore.

00:35:45

She got to save the date and then no invite. Like, how rude is that? They changed their mind.

00:35:51

Yeah. So Paul has some walking around money from his mother. But since he not yet an adult he doesn have access to the family fortune I sure he does fine Yeah He sometimes sells paintings for money But that said everyone in Rome knows that Paul is a Getty You know his name gets him into clubs and parties And unfortunately it also winds up getting him kidnapped

00:36:11

In the very early morning hours of July 10th in 1973, 16-year-old Paul has been out partying.

00:36:17

And now he's wandering the streets of Rome, as you did when you were young. what a place to wander around drunk and high and like the lights coming up it's so beautiful

00:36:28

it's on it's an unbelievable city you've had a couple Aperol spritzes you get out there and some

00:36:33

coke and just a general like totally unrealistic life up until that point I'm 16 and everything's

00:36:42

ahead of me and everyone kind of likes me because even if they can't get something from me in that

00:36:47

moment maybe later. And then he gets hit over the back of the head. So he's walking by himself?

00:36:54

It sounds like he's by himself. He stops at a newsstand to get a magazine and a Mickey Mouse

00:36:58

comic book, which is like, oh, he's a baby. He is at least drunk, if not more. And so a white car

00:37:04

pulls up with four guys in it. They jump out and they hit him on the back of the head with their

00:37:09

pistol butts and then put a cloth over his face. And he thinks it has chloroform on it because he

00:37:15

passes out. He wakes up sometime later in the moving car. He's blindfolded and the back of his

00:37:20

head is bleeding and his wrists and ankles are tied together. The kidnappers drive Paul for about

00:37:24

six hours. And there was no air conditioning, I bet, either. No, no way. When they stop,

00:37:30

they carry Paul out of the car. He gets the sense, he later says, that he's in the mountain area

00:37:34

because of the wind. And he worries the kidnappers are going to throw him off a cliff, but instead

00:37:40

they lie him down on a blanket on the ground. So he doesn't know it's for ransom yet. He's just

00:37:44

like, I've just been kidnapped. Every few days, the kidnappers move Paul to a new location.

00:37:49

They feel mostly outdoors to Paul. He remains blindfolded, but sometimes he can tell he's like

00:37:55

in a little hut or something. After what feels like a few days, the kidnappers bring him a pen

00:38:00

and paper and ask for his grandfather's address because they want to send him a ransom letter.

00:38:07

Yeah. And Paul has to write it. And he like considers like trying to write in code, trying

00:38:11

to get like just somehow a message across and he's probably starving and hurt and he's like I can't

00:38:17

even think of how I would do that right so he just writes the letter here's how I would do it yeah

00:38:22

dear grandpa yeah you've always been so generous to me I know that this won't be a big deal to you

00:38:28

because I know how much you don't care about money it's not him it's not him this is not they wouldn't

00:38:33

know it's him yeah he'd be like something's terribly wrong something's wrong that's a good

00:38:38

point. So he does that. And now Paul knows that it's definitely a ransom kidnapping. And he knows

00:38:44

that his grandpa is tight fisted. So he's like, I'm screwed. Yeah. He's not like, oh, good. Maybe

00:38:49

I'll survive this. He's like, shit. I'm living in this hut from now on. Yeah. Right. Paul has been

00:38:54

kidnapped by a group called the Andranghetti, a mafia syndicate that operates out of Calabria,

00:39:00

which is all the way in the south of Italy. It's the toe of the boot. And in the 1970s,

00:39:06

it's still a very poor area and very much run by the mafia. At first, people think that there's evidence that he helped with the kidnapping to get

00:39:14

some money himself. Oh, yeah. Because he's 16 years old. He lives by himself on Rome.

00:39:18

He doesn't have a ton of money to his name. But it's quickly shown that he has nothing to do with the plot.

00:39:23

He knows. Yeah. That's not the way to do it. He's like, they're not getting ransom money, and I wouldn't get any of the ransom money

00:39:28

that you guys got. So he has nothing to do with it. OK. So then on July 18th, the ransom letter arrives.

00:39:34

one to Gail, the mother, and one to J. Paul Getty, the grandpa. Gail's letter says, quote,

00:39:39

Dear Mommy, I have fallen into the hands of kidnappers. Don't let me be killed. Arrange

00:39:45

things so that the police don't intervene. You must absolutely not take this thing as a joke.

00:39:50

Try and get in contact with the kidnappers in the manner and the way they tell you. Don't let

00:39:55

the public know about the negotiations if you don't want me killed. He's like, please don't

00:39:59

take this as a joke. And no, this isn't just me running away. Like, I know I've done shitty

00:40:03

things and like weird stuff in the past and I party all night, but this is not that.

00:40:07

You have to get all of that said in one letter of like, OK, we don't hang up. Yeah, totally.

00:40:11

In a letter. Yes, exactly. It's horrible. I want to live and to be free again. Don't publicize my kidnapping. Pay, I beg you.

00:40:18

Pay as soon as possible if you wish me well. This is all you have to know. If you delay,

00:40:22

it is very dangerous for me. I love you, Paul. End quote. And to his grandpa, he simply says,

00:40:28

quote I know we haven't been very close but I hope you know that I love you please do whatever

00:40:33

you can to get me out of here this is serious love Paul that's kind of like all he can yeah he

00:40:39

doesn't he knows the other way won't work totally despite Paul's warnings not to publicize the

00:40:44

kidnapping the news gets out and J. Paul Getty releases a statement to the press saying he doesn't

00:40:50

plan to pay any ransom and now let's play devil's advocate he says quote although I see my grandson

00:40:56

unfrequently and I'm not particularly close to him. Didn't need to say that. That didn't need to be.

00:41:02

No connections. No, no. Don't care. I love him nonetheless. Like, just say you love him. You

00:41:07

don't have to. OK. However, I don't believe in paying kidnappers. I have 14 other grandchildren.

00:41:12

And if I pay one penny now, then I'll have 14 kidnapped grandchildren. Yes. End quote, which is

00:41:18

yeah. Don't negotiate with terrorists. Like that makes sense. Yes, it does. It completely does.

00:41:24

But you're still in a hard place. But also the way he's lived the rest of his life makes no sense.

00:41:29

So it's like suddenly he's making all kinds of sense where it's like, cough up the fucking brain cancer money.

00:41:36

Would you please? Like, what are you doing? Brain cancer was holding your kid ransom before and you didn't care.

00:41:43

Ouch. Yeah. So I suggested that. But then you put it in the perfect statement. Oh, yeah.

00:41:48

So now you're being subtle. You're being mean, not me. Don't be mean to JP Getty.

00:41:52

I'd never be allowed in the Getty again. That right I like on the band list Fine I don like museums anymore Your picture is right there in the ticket booth My painting is right there Did you say I don like museums

00:42:06

Gail, the mom, instructs the kidnappers to speak with the family lawyer and they have the rest of the correspondence with him. They tell the lawyer that they want 10 billion lira, which is about 17 million dollars. You want to guess what that is in today's money?

00:42:19

17 million dollars 10 billion lira would in today's money be 30 billion lira which would be roughly around um well you said no already oh no i thought you were saying 30 no 25 122 million oh shit so they went they went high yeah they did the kidnappers go back and forth negotiating with the lawyer for weeks negotiating for this person's life turns into months and meanwhile the italian police have basically dismissed the whole thing saying it's either a hoax or that paul himself orchestrated

00:42:49

of the kidnapping. So no one's taking it seriously. Again, that thing that police do where they're

00:42:53

like, no work for us here because we've theorized that there is no work for us here. You know what

00:42:58

I bet? That's what they said. I bet it's this. I bet it's not real. Yeah. While this is going on,

00:43:03

Paul's kidnappers continue to move him around. He's got to be so fucking bummed at this point.

00:43:07

Eventually, they march him for eight hours up a high mountain to a cave. And he thinks later that

00:43:12

it's an abandoned Nazi bunker. So he's not anywhere comfortable. In October of 1973. Okay,

00:43:18

This is when it gets serious for him. They say that they're going to give him a haircut.

00:43:22

And he is like, oh, no. Oh. Thinking they're about to slice off one of his fingers.

00:43:27

But they do give him a haircut. And then they pour alcohol all over one side of his head.

00:43:33

And they cut off his ear. And you can see it in the photos later. Like, ear is gone.

00:43:40

Not at the tip of the ear. They cut off his entire ear. Yeah. Which is so just sad.

00:43:45

He's in excruciating pain. He fades in and out over the next couple of days. I mean, can you imagine?

00:43:50

Can you like I cut my finger so often when I feed my damn dogs because I do that like dog roll or whatever that I'm always cutting up.

00:43:58

Yeah. I'm like, you walk around with that for a couple of days. It's like, uh-huh.

00:44:02

Yeah. So awful. It's your whole ear. Your whole ear and you're in the mountains.

00:44:06

And so the only painkiller he really has is alcohol. It seems like they give him a lot of alcohol.

00:44:10

Well, at least he has that. I mean, but then the hangovers. Okay. Also, he can never sleep on that side.

00:44:16

It's just like the pain. The captors seal the ear in a plastic envelope with the lock of his hair.

00:44:22

So they did cut his hair for a reason. And a letter threatening to further mutilate Paul if the negotiations keep dragging on.

00:44:28

They mail it to an Italian newspaper because they're like, maybe they're the only ones who will give a shit.

00:44:32

Yeah. Which is smart. But here's the problem. This is so sad. There's a postal strike going on.

00:44:37

No. Yeah. So the ear takes three weeks to arrive at its destination. Like what bad luck.

00:44:44

That's horrible. For him. Horrible. Right? It's just like a shitty thing. Also, just like, why can't they just place him somewhere?

00:44:53

I mean, out in the countryside or whatever, just like moving him around and always keeping him like in a cave or somewhere exposed.

00:45:01

Go drop that letter off at the... Yeah. There's no CCTV at the time. Like, just throw that letter somewhere and don't mail it.

00:45:08

Put him in a basement. Yeah. Once it does get there in mid-November, the reporters contact the Getty family and the police.

00:45:14

though the police still think the kidnapping is a hoax. They're holding on. Paul's mom, Gail, doesn't have access to that kind of money herself, you know, of course.

00:45:24

But at this point, Paul's father, Eugene, J. Paul Getty II, finally gets in touch.

00:45:29

He's not in Italy and he doesn't want to come back to Italy because he's wanted for questioning

00:45:33

in his second wife's death. Remember, she died of a possible drug overdose. There's not really evidence he has anything to do with the death,

00:45:40

but it does seem fair to say that he doesn't want to deal with the Italian police.

00:45:43

So Eugene says he's willing to pay a reduced ransom for his son of $1 million, which is about $10 million in today's money, but tries to simultaneously negotiate with his ex-wife Gail for custody of their children if he pays it.

00:45:57

So he turns this into a thing about himself. Right, of course. Like he has to get something out of...

00:46:04

Yeah, I'll do it, but I'll save your son. But the kidnappers reject the offer, saying they want $2.9 million, which is more than $20 million in today's money.

00:46:13

They're like, you're negotiating for your child. His ear's gone. I feel like my family would like get us some sort of a chili cook off together and raise money.

00:46:24

You know what I mean? Like this idea that he has to keep passing it from relative to relative.

00:46:29

You'd like to think. Do you wonder if they saw the ear, if they'd know it was his ear?

00:46:34

Like, would you be able to pick your own ear out of a lineup? I don't know if I could.

00:46:39

I could. I just have big ears. Okay. So I think I'd be able to be like, oh, that is mine.

00:46:43

Do you think it was like a big Lebowski little toe situation where like this could be anyone's little toe?

00:46:49

That's very true. Right? Yeah. You should have done something more recognizable.

00:46:52

Yeah. An ear is tough. Although they say they can use them to identify people like in aging and stuff like that.

00:46:58

Oh, that's true. Yeah. Okay. But not separate from the head. No. I mean, I don't know what people can do.

00:47:04

Let us know. Forensic people who are in. Please write in. Please let us know. So they want 2.9 million.

00:47:11

It's only at this point that the family patriarch, J. Paul Getty, the OG, the world's richest man, says he'll pay.

00:47:18

But he actually only pays $2.2 million. Just as this is like a final fuck you. I'll pay it.

00:47:24

But I'm only paying $2.2 million because that's the maximum amount that's tax deductible.

00:47:29

What in the actual fuck? Wow, these people. Right? And he's also like, and I minused every time I had to make a phone call about this.

00:47:39

Yeah. And that's that's over 100 dimes. He pays 2.2, but to get to that 2.9, which they still want, he then gives the rest of the amount to his son to pay that part of it.

00:47:50

So he doesn't have to pay taxes on it, but he gives it to him as a loan with interest.

00:47:55

Good Lord. I mean, that's like, yeah, diabolical. And also like it's mental illness at that point.

00:48:03

You just can't not track money. All while the Italian media is running photos of his teenage grandson's severed ear.

00:48:11

So I think people were probably like felt pretty bad for Paul. I mean, it was actually the kidnappers.

00:48:16

Best move was to just send that ear to the press. Right. The Getty family hires an ex-CIA officer to handle the exchange.

00:48:24

And in December, he leaves packages of money along the side of the road in Calabria.

00:48:29

The captors tell Paul that they've received the money, but they have to wait until the next day, Monday, to release him because there's a gas shortage in Italy and no one is allowed to drive anywhere on Sundays.

00:48:40

Like, dude. What is happening? I don't know. It was a bad time in Italy. Thankfully, the next day, the captors blindfold Paul, bring him to a car, drive him to a remote location and leave him on the side of the road to be picked up.

00:48:51

Eventually, and I don't know how long that is, the local police find him. God. Poor dude.

00:48:57

Paula arrives in Rome to a huge amount of attention from the press and from bystanders.

00:49:01

He's mobbed at the police station. Eventually, his mother takes him to a private clinic to recover.

00:49:06

And then he goes to the Alps to rest and rebuild his muscles by skiing, which is like, that sounds nice.

00:49:13

Yeah, you can also do that in physical therapy. Right, right. It's like, that's, yeah.

00:49:19

The Italian police ultimately arrest nine people for the kidnapping, but only two are ever convicted.

00:49:24

Most of the ransom money is never recovered. Oh. Yeah. So they kind of got away with it.

00:49:28

Some people got away with it. Gail, the mom, suggests that Paul calls his grandfather to thank him for paying the ransom.

00:49:35

But J. Paul Getty doesn't come to the phone. Yeah. To say, you're welcome for the ransom, my grandson.

00:49:41

The Getty patriarch dies about a year after his grandson's kidnapping. And everyone said, good riddance.

00:49:47

With a roll of dimes clutched to his chest. I mean. That's right. I can't let it go because phone calls used to be really cheap.

00:49:56

Yeah. So crazy. Listen to me like harboring the local only thing. Like it doesn't matter.

00:50:01

It doesn't matter. It was really expensive, long distance. I wish I had like a really happy ending to this.

00:50:06

We all want him to like go on to a happy life of charity and giving and everything.

00:50:12

But unfortunately, he doesn't. He grows up, gets married, moves to New York, has a son, the actor Balthazar Getty.

00:50:19

he's not surprisingly forever traumatized by his kidnapping of course and will always struggle he

00:50:26

struggles with substance abuse and alcohol abuse he's just not there's no therapy for him i'm sure

00:50:31

it's just he's like not just the kidnapping but that your family wouldn't pay it yes it's this

00:50:36

idea of like your value there's nobody for you your value yeah no one's on your side no one's

00:50:42

gonna fight like hell no one's gonna do anything yeah it sucks and in 1981 when he's only 25 he

00:50:49

suffers an overdose and this causes him to have a stroke, which leaves him paralyzed and unable to

00:50:54

speak for the rest of his life. And he's in a wheelchair. It's so heartbreaking. There's photos

00:50:59

of him and it's just like you try to see the man he could have been. Yeah. And it's just he never

00:51:05

had a chance. Wow. Paul's mother, Gail, cares for him full time after that. And in 2011, he dies at

00:51:13

the age of 54. Wow. And that is the sad story of the kidnapping of John Paul Getty III.

00:51:21

That sucks. Sorry. I mean, dang. Yeah, it's just tragedy. Because I'll be honest, when I was

00:51:29

watching the FX series. Trust. Trust. Yeah, I want to watch it now. It's great. Yeah. And of course,

00:51:36

like, it's really well done. But I stopped watching because I think it was a miniseries,

00:51:41

if I'm not mistaken. So like if that is the case, then after three episodes, I was like, I just don't.

00:51:46

The people that played the Italian kidnappers were hot, hot, hot. Oh, wow. And wearing like 70s, like a leather jacket with like a big V, very disco hot.

00:51:56

Yeah. So that was fun. I want to watch it. But then after a while, you're just like, oh, yeah, this sucks.

00:52:01

And this is kind of this human condition where we get this idea of like, if I have X, it'll

00:52:05

make me happy. Yeah. I mean, we know that because like many people have been broke and that there's nothing worse than when you're stressing about.

00:52:12

No, it's the worst in your track. It takes time off of your life, the stress of it's horrible being broke.

00:52:17

And it makes you desperate and all those things. But it's like but there's a desperation to being on that other side, which is.

00:52:23

It's hard to empathize with. But, you know, this is what we do as people. But I just think it's really important that we care for the billionaires at a time like this in America.

00:52:33

Try to understand the billionaire's point of view. They're sad. They have so much art.

00:52:38

That's all they have. We're joking, clearly. Please don't add us. Please don't take anything we say to heart.

00:52:46

Oh my God, do you have something happier? Yes, I do. Oh, good. Are you ready to turn it around?

00:52:50

Please. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.

00:52:58

Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories

00:53:04

I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. Just then, we felt the plane turn in the air,

00:53:13

so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.

00:53:18

Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,

00:53:25

and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,

00:53:31

but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything,

00:53:35

and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.

00:53:41

And he went out the front door, and he jumped in a car and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him.

00:53:46

Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:53:54

10 shots fired in City Hall building How could this have happened in City Hall Somebody tell me that A shocking public murder This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics

00:54:08

I screamed, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery

00:54:15

that may or may not have been political. It may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall

00:54:21

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players

00:54:29

and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet.

00:54:34

Hey. And we have been joined at the hip since high school. Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later,

00:54:40

we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast.

00:54:43

We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.

00:54:47

With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO.

00:54:53

Well, then you got it. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:55:02

This one's light and fun. Yay. And I have to put my sweater back on. I'm 55. It's so hot in here right now.

00:55:09

I don't know what. I got cold. I'm sweating. This is all I do all night long. Back and forth, back and forth.

00:55:14

And I'm just like, get away from me. Hold on a second. I'm done. Okay. Okay. I also found out that when you're on SSRIs, as I am, it makes you intolerant to temperature changes, especially heat.

00:55:27

Oh, so now you're like extra sensitive. So when I'm at a party, I'm like, it's hot, right?

00:55:31

It's hot, right? It's like boiling. It's not. Yeah. Just me. Okay. You're not alone.

00:55:36

It's hot to other people, too. It's hot to other people with depression, too. Menopause, depression.

00:55:42

Menopause with depression. There's a lot of us. Random heat syndrome where you're just hot.

00:55:47

Hot for no reason. Cool. People who run hot. Okay, so my story today takes place in Franklin County, Kentucky, which is home to the state capital. And what's the capital of Kentucky?

00:56:00

Louisville. That's right, Frankfurt. Damn it. Oh, my God. That's right, Frankfurt. No matter what you're going to say, I was going to pretend you said Frankfurt.

00:56:12

Oh, man. You really believed you had it right. I was so excited. Oh, that's embarrassing.

00:56:19

Now Franklin is going to be mad at me and Louisville is going to be mad at me. It doesn't matter.

00:56:24

Everyone's always mad at us. It doesn't matter. Now we have to go there on tour.

00:56:29

Now we have to add a date. Here we come, Frankfurt. Here we come. Franklin County.

00:56:35

Here we come. That's what I meant. I said Frankfurt. Frankfurt is the city and Franklin County is the area.

00:56:41

All of it. Sorry. And we're probably pronouncing it wrong also because it's Frank Fort, which I'm sure.

00:56:46

Right. It's actually Fort. The Fort isn't silent. It sounds like Appalachia. Okay.

00:56:51

Give us an, what is it called? Mnemonic aid and we will remember. So this part of Kentucky, this part of Kentucky tends to be pretty quiet.

00:57:01

The population of Franklin County is around 50,000 for everybody. For everybody.

00:57:07

For everybody. That means every resident of Franklin County can fit in Dodger Stadium.

00:57:12

Wow. Shut up. So it's small. That's crazy. People-wise. So when Franklin County made headlines in October of 2013, the people who lived there could not believe it because it wasn't just the local paper or the local news station that was reporting.

00:57:26

The case that was being talked about was on the national news and then it went international.

00:57:32

But it wasn't the kind of case that normally gets that level of press. You could say it's actually a very Kentucky crime.

00:57:40

Dozens of cases of bourbon had gone missing from one of the state's most well-known distilleries,

00:57:45

a distillery called Buffalo Trace, which is based right there in Franklin County.

00:57:50

That's good shit. Right? That's what's in this cup right here. It's just all bourbon.

00:57:54

A glass of warm bourbon. It's seven fingers of bourbon in Georgia's travel mug. So, you know, bourbon going missing normally would not ignite a media frenzy, but it was no ordinary bourbon.

00:58:06

It was a very rare whiskey with a cult following. A single bottle could sell for thousands of dollars on the black market.

00:58:15

It was called Pappy Van Winkle. Oh. You heard of this? I don't think I've heard of this, but I know Pappy Van Winkle.

00:58:22

No. You do? I don't think I know this. Oh, for sure. I like bourbon. So this is the story of the Pappygate heist and the man who'd find himself at the center

00:58:29

of it all. And his name is Toby Kurtzinger. Wow. I don't know this. Okay. So the sources that Marin used for the story today are reporting by the Lexington Herald-Ledger. There's a magazine called Garden and Gun, and that's real.

00:58:46

There was an article in it by a journalist named Guy Martin entitled What Netflix Gets Right and Wrong About Papygate.

00:58:53

So it's like the definitive, like, locals knowing the story. We are just so the coastal elite. It's crazy.

00:58:59

Yeah, for Garden and Gun. Yeah. I mean, hey, we have gardens and guns out here in California.

00:59:03

We got both. We got both what we did. I don't think we have a lot of magazines about it.

00:59:07

And then, of course, two episodes of the Netflix series Heist that feature this story.

00:59:12

And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So this all begins in 1988 because that's the year that a young man in his late teens named Toby Kurtzinger is hired by the Buffalo Trace Distillery.

00:59:26

So Toby starts out working in the warehouse. And then over the next two decades, he basically moves around to different departments at the distillery.

00:59:34

He works in shipping. Then he works on the loading docks. So he has a very good understanding of how this distillery works.

00:59:42

And on that Netflix show heist, Toby explains firsthand that when he first starts working at Buffalo Trace, he isn't a big whiskey guy himself.

00:59:50

But it is part of the workplace culture, as you could imagine. Everybody drinks He picks up the habit quickly And according to Toby everybody who works there also dips into the distillery bourbon supply It not unusual for employees to head home with a bottle or two or three

01:00:07

And it's mostly tolerated and probably actually even expected. It's probably great business.

01:00:12

It's like you put that up in your cabinet and you pour it to your friends when they come over and then that's just more business.

01:00:19

So basically a little missing inventory here and there does not draw much attention.

01:00:23

And again, everyone is drunk, so who's to say? Just kidding. I put that in. So outside of work, Toby's world revolves around the local adult softball league.

01:00:34

He and his teammates are a tight-knit group, and they take the game very, very seriously, as men love to do with casual sports outings.

01:00:44

They actually go start lifting weights at the local gym together. They're always trying to get bigger and stronger and more intimidating on the field.

01:00:52

Hit that ball harder? I don't know. Toby even starts taking steroids. First fucking softball?

01:00:59

Yes. Friend. I mean, because winning is everything. Sure. And softball is everything.

01:01:04

I told you about the year I played entertainment intramural softball when I was on speed.

01:01:10

No. In the 90s. Anyone cool on the team? On our team? Yeah, that you can brag about.

01:01:16

Mr. Show's John Ennis. Oh, okay. Mr. Show's David Cross. There you go. There was a lot of good people.

01:01:21

I had one game where I was so high and I was so good at this game that people applauded for me at the end of the game.

01:01:29

Holy shit. And I was just like, oh, no, I'm just going faster than everybody else.

01:01:33

I'm just like, I can see it. Yeah. Just trajectories and shit make total sense to Karen Kilgara.

01:01:38

I am into doping for sports. I think it works. It works. It works if you work it.

01:01:43

Yeah. So he's now beefed up and great at softball. And of course, he meets a woman at the gym named Julie.

01:01:50

Sparks fly. They get married in 2001 when Toby is around 30 years old and they quickly have two children together.

01:01:58

And Toby loves his family, but he does have trouble adjusting to marriage, like the responsibilities of marriage and fatherhood.

01:02:06

He still is spending all his time playing softball, his passion, and of course working out.

01:02:12

So that means his wife, Julie, who is a very busy real estate agent, has to pick up all the slack.

01:02:18

No, no. so she is forced to give Toby the ultimatum his family or softball like that's just not something

01:02:25

you picture in your like 10-year plan of life as like fighting with your husband about softball

01:02:30

no you know but I it makes sense that like I think if you you didn't play sports in high school I

01:02:37

I didn't I did drugs in high school so I but I played sports before I played soccer before pretty

01:02:42

like aggressively okay yeah and you were very good at kickball afterwards in the in the 2000s

01:02:48

When kickball was fun. Oh, yeah. I played kickball in rehab. Now I got really good at table tennis.

01:02:53

But I mean, I think that's that thing where like, I remember I wasn't even that good at softball.

01:02:58

But when I left high school, I would have dreams about playing it all the time because it was just this kind of ritualistic.

01:03:03

This is how I spend my time. Yeah. I'm not making fun. Like everyone should have their hobby.

01:03:07

But when it gets in the way of your family, then it's like. Yeah. You got to. You got to come on.

01:03:11

Yeah. And also women don't get the choice. Right. Which is the thing I think, you know, people are starting to realize now of like, yeah, you just get to go play softball.

01:03:20

There is slack and you're not picking it up, bro. Pick it up. So he picks family over softball.

01:03:26

Sure. He's a decent human being. Okay. But there is genuine grief over having to quit the team.

01:03:31

Oh, he has to quit. Yeah. Because she's like, you got to come home at night. Yeah.

01:03:35

Yeah. So now we fast forward to a night in 2008. Toby invites one of his old softball friends over.

01:03:42

He never names this person. But in their hang, in his man cave, just kidding. I added that in.

01:03:48

He decides to pull out his special bottle of 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle for them to drink.

01:03:54

Pappy Van Winkle, by 2008, is worth around $1,000 a bottle. I had no idea. Yeah.

01:03:59

And it's worth more on the black market. Yeah. So this is the stuff. It's because it's aged for 20 years and all that.

01:04:05

Whatever. It's a very specialty. Yeah. And so, of course, he wants to treat his friend and it's their special night and fun times.

01:04:12

And also, here's why 20-year Pappy is so expensive. Because since its debut in 1994, this bourbon has been recommended, heralded, and celebrated by everyone from casual drinkers and bartenders to whiskey experts and celebrities, the most important one being Anthony Bourdain.

01:04:29

Oh, shit. So that's like his favorite. Cronosaur. Right? Oh, yeah. He talked about it a lot.

01:04:35

I fucking can hear Anthony Bourdain saying. Yeah. Writer Paul Wachter reports for New York Magazine, quote, 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle has become the most covetable whiskey on the planet.

01:04:47

Its defining characteristics are an unusual sweetness and an uncannily long, complex finish that's described as having the flavors of everything from cigar boxes to coconut to dried tangerine.

01:04:59

We've got to ask Paul Holes about that. He's a connoisseur, too. Oh, I wonder if he's tried it.

01:05:04

Yeah. Call him on the hot dog phone. Wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah. If you pick up the phone, any host...

01:05:09

Just go straight to Paul Holes. Oh, any host? Yeah. No, you're right. Straight to Paul Holes.

01:05:14

Straight to Paul Holes. I ask him a question. Hey, is it illegal to... And he has to pick it up.

01:05:19

Yes, yes. There by his fish tank in his office where he records all the podcasts.

01:05:22

Right, his tank top. Okay, so over the last three decades, the hype around Pappy Van Winkle has snowballed so much that Buffalo Trace,

01:05:31

which has a very long, very specific distilling process for this particular bourbon,

01:05:36

just can't keep up with demand. They're only able to produce about 7,012 bottle cases a year.

01:05:43

So, for example, Jack Daniels produces more than 10 million cases of black label whiskey every year.

01:05:49

Okay. How'd you say it? 700? 7,000. 7,000. Okay. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah So a Thrillist article describes 20 Pappy as quote the sort of thing that millionaires will fight each other for Guys guys guys you softball and fucking thousand dollar whiskey

01:06:08

Come on. And listen, my husband's into professional wrestling like a lot, so I shouldn't be judging other people's hobbies.

01:06:14

I love any British film that involves Jane Austen in any way, shape or form. That's what yours is?

01:06:20

Yeah. That's mine. Cats. Just fucking cats. Cats, cats, cats. I would have all the cats.

01:06:24

Hardcore cats. And vintage. Yes. Okay. I also like to swim and read. Okay. So it's obviously a big treat when Toby pulls this bottle out to share it with his softball friend.

01:06:38

It seems possible that his friend has never even seen a bottle of 20 Year Pappy before.

01:06:44

Because you cannot find it on liquor store shelves. And the lucky shops that do get it in only have a few bottles like a year.

01:06:52

Wow. Then they have to decide, the liquor store has to decide how to sell it. So some stores have years-long waiting lists for it.

01:06:59

Holy shit. Other ones raffle them off, like have random drawings to see if they get their pappy.

01:07:06

I had no idea. Yeah. You might be able to find a restaurant or a bar that has it on the menu, but a single

01:07:11

shot of 20-year pappy will likely cost you at least... $250. $100. Damn it. I just realized as you were guessing, I was like, this is probably anticlimactic.

01:07:22

That's what I was thinking with the other one. I was like, don't guess. You shouldn't guess.

01:07:26

It's not that fun. Yeah. Okay. $100 for a shot, though. For a shot. That's ridiculous.

01:07:30

So when Toby brings out the pappy to impress his guest, it works. His friend is so excited to be getting to drink it.

01:07:37

He even asked Toby if he can buy the rest of the bottle they're drinking right then and there.

01:07:42

Toby does his friend one better. He pulls out two more bottles of 20-year pappy, and he offers them up like, you can buy these from me.

01:07:50

Oh, shit. And the friend happily takes the bourbon and returns the next day with a bunch of cash for Toby and a request for more.

01:07:59

And in Toby's mind, it's easy money. He has easy access to this very expensive bourbon.

01:08:05

He's never gotten trouble for taking anything before from work. And he genuinely doesn't think anyone will even notice if a couple more bottles go missing.

01:08:14

So Toby figures he's just going to steal one or two more 20-year pappies to sell to this friend.

01:08:19

They weren't locking them up or anything? No. In fact, they talk about it. They had a very antiquated security system in general.

01:08:27

It was all very lax and casual. They didn't have video cameras. I'll talk about it later, but the place where they did hold it, the hinge was broken so you could just open the door anyway.

01:08:39

It's reminding me of the great maple syrup heist story where it's just like... It's just like that.

01:08:45

So Toby's taking it very casually. He's like, oh, well, this will be fine. But of course, when that cash starts rolling in, because it is so valuable, things quickly get out of hand.

01:08:55

Toby starts showing up at local poker nights with a stolen bottle of 20-year pappy, knowing that there will be doctors, lawyers, judges and politicians there, the kind of people who want and can't afford the price of the pappy.

01:09:09

It sort of becomes a promotional ploy, him showing up with that bottle and basically alerting the wealthy around town that he can be their pappy hookup.

01:09:20

And it works. Everyone wants Toby to get them a bottle, a 20-year pappy, and he promises that he can.

01:09:27

He says, quote, you got people going, hey, I'll give you this for a bottle. And what they're offering is twice what you make in two weeks, and it's tax free.

01:09:36

And, you know, I feel like it's like that broken window syndrome or whatever it's called where it's like it's not locked up.

01:09:42

So he is assuming it's not as valuable to them as it would be. He's not breaking any.

01:09:48

He's not breaking into anything. He's just walking in. So they must not care about it that much.

01:09:53

Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just it's very easy to rationalize. I think that's like why religion was started, because if people are left to their own devices, they're just like, it's not that bad.

01:10:03

Yeah. You know, like that's a we've told the story many times. Like one of my first jobs, I worked at a cafe and I was like, I deserve to take twenty dollars out of the till at night so I can buy beer.

01:10:13

Yeah. Like I did it twice. Yeah. And then the manager's like, I think the janitor's stealing.

01:10:18

And I was like, oh, yeah, that's when when the rationalization meets the road. Thankfully, you had that insight, at least.

01:10:26

Yes. And I had home Jim on the phone. It was like there's some people he said it like almost out of the blue one day.

01:10:32

And he's like, you know, there's some people, they just can't keep their hands out of the till.

01:10:36

And then I was like, oh, no, I know. That's me. That's good that he knew he could tell.

01:10:43

So Toby's starting price for one bottle, seven hundred and fifty dollars. And it's normally like a thousand.

01:10:50

It's he's basically like friends and family, I guess. Smart. But if you go and Maren keeps using the term black market.

01:10:58

Yeah. But I think it's like any it's so hard to get that you would probably end up.

01:11:02

having to pay this much. Right, right. So he's kind of like, I'm your guy that can get it for

01:11:06

you for this. Yeah. But he's fulfilling these orders by simply stealing bottles from work

01:11:12

as needed. Jesus. And as I said, the cage where Buffalo Trace keeps the pappy has a broken hinge.

01:11:18

So Toby walks in and out and takes it anytime he wants to. No one's looking. He can take as much

01:11:24

as he wants. So this sales plan obviously is not sustainable. And basically very quickly,

01:11:31

he can't meet his own demand. He's kind of like worked it around and been like the big man at the

01:11:36

party with the 20 year pappy, but he can't actually get it done. So he enlists some help. One of his

01:11:42

first recruits is a friend at work who's a new father and Toby figures he can use some cash.

01:11:48

This coworker comes up with a very straightforward plan. They can steal the 20 year pappy that's

01:11:53

currently staged in one of the distilleries display cases. So basically there's a bunch of bottles of it just sit

01:12:00

somewhere like for show for people that are going to be at the distillery. It's like five layers deep and you just take the fifth layer.

01:12:06

Just like the maple syrup heist. Yeah. So the men simply walk up, open the glass case, take the pappy out,

01:12:13

rearrange the rest of the bottles to hide the gap. That time they take four bottles of 20-year pappy,

01:12:19

which Toby sells to a local doctor for $4,000. Holy shit. No discount there, I guess.

01:12:25

No, no. It's a doctor. Charge him an arm and a leg. He and his co-worker split that money.

01:12:31

And then word spreads around the distillery that Toby is the go-to guy for moving stolen bourbon.

01:12:36

So a few more co-workers take note. One Buffalo Trace employee from the warehouse pilfers around 80 cases of anything he can get his hands on.

01:12:45

Not even Pappy Van Winkle, just a bunch of other Buffalo Trace products and dumps them on Toby's doorstep.

01:12:52

80 cases? Yes. That's too many. It's not for Toby, though. He is able to sell the stolen liquor to two different buyers while no one at Buffalo Trace notices that anything is gone.

01:13:04

It's also good faith. It's like, you know, like a small time distillery that's like, we've always treated our employees like family.

01:13:13

It's like, that's your mistake. So Toby says this in the Netflix series Heist. He says, quote, I was the kind of guy that you knew could get stuff.

01:13:24

I was kind of like a mini Amazon. And if you got to talking to me and we became friends and you said, hey, man, can you help me get this?

01:13:30

I'd help you get it. Boom. Helping you get something released a small endorphin that made me feel good.

01:13:35

Sure. So does stealing. Yeah. And so does softball. So Toby eventually pulls a few old softball buddies into this scheme, some as accomplices and others as buyers.

01:13:48

One guy works as a truck driver for another Kentucky-based distillery, a bigger one called Wild Turkey.

01:13:54

Uh-oh. This friend mentioned having access to entire barrels of wild turkey bourbon, and those barrels hold around 50 gallons of liquor each.

01:14:05

So Toby winds up moving several barrels himself. Basically, his friend from wild turkey pulls his delivery truck over on the road, and Toby pulls up behind him, and they just put the barrels into the back of Toby's truck.

01:14:18

And Toby drives it home and hides it in his shed on his property. What are you going to do with a barrel?

01:14:23

Sell it. The whole thing? Okay. Sell it to all these people that want this stuff.

01:14:27

But how do you bottle it even? I don't know. They're like, come and you have to put your head under the barrel.

01:14:34

Yeah. You get three turns. Yeah. We'll hold your legs up over your head. It's a great way to get people to party with you in your shed.

01:14:40

Definitely. So depending on the product, Toby will sell these for between $1,000 and $1,500, a fraction of what they're worth at the distilleries.

01:14:50

So each barrel is valued at between $3,000 and $6,000, depending on the content.

01:14:57

So he's moving like a bunch of liquor. Yeah. Again, no one at Wild Turkey realizes their barrels have gone missing.

01:15:03

That's because it's such a massive, you know, a business. At one point, Toby and his accomplices make off with a barrel of Buffalo Trace's high-end bourbon called Eagle Rare.

01:15:14

And Toby sells it to a woman who tells him that she's looking for a special Christmas gift for her husband.

01:15:20

We don't know how much Toby got for the Eagle Rare, but we do know that a barrel of it has a retail value of more than $10,000.

01:15:29

Holy shit. Yeah. And that also, I have the same question, which is, is he selling, does this lady roll in a barrel of bourbon for her husband?

01:15:37

And it's like, da-da-da-da. I think so. I mean, like. You tap that shit, right? I don't know.

01:15:41

Kind of fun. Yeah. And then you can wear it afterwards. You can go down a waterfall in it.

01:15:46

Yeah. Okay, so by the 2010s, Toby is now in his 40s. He's been reselling stolen bourbon in a pretty messy ring made up of his friends and colleagues for years.

01:15:58

But the side hustle does help him support his family. It's also given him a way to reconnect to his old softball buddies that he missed so much.

01:16:06

Then in the fall of 2013, someone working at Buffalo Trace Distillery notices something shocking.

01:16:12

They're missing 65 cases of 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle, which is around 200 bottles of it, which would be worth $25,000.

01:16:22

On the black market, it could be worth as much as $100,000. Holy shit. So for the record, Toby insists he is not responsible for all of those missing cases of Pappy, which does seem plausible.

01:16:34

There's no security. Right. A lot of people at the distillery know that he doing it so why wouldn they do it Yeah I mean you know Kind of a free Either way the discovery drums up a ton of press probably because some reporters refer to this as a heist suggesting an organized well Ocean Eleven style situation

01:16:55

And that plus the Kentucky setting, the stolen loot being bourbon and the name Pappy itself.

01:17:01

All of this is like catnip to the media. Reporters dubbed the case Pappygate. And they called the thief the Pappy Bandit.

01:17:10

Amazing. And they were bored that week. Yes, that's right. How fun, though, to finally, of all the stories that come across your desk.

01:17:18

Oh, my God, seriously. So as the story goes international, Franklin County Sheriff Pat Melton launches an investigation.

01:17:24

His gut's telling him it's an inside job. So his officers interview around 100 Buffalo Trace employees hoping for a lead.

01:17:32

Meanwhile, Toby keeps doing it, presumably because he knows he has friends in high places.

01:17:37

His buyers include some of Franklin County's most respected lawyers, cops and politicians.

01:17:42

So he must have felt untouchable. He's like, this is what the people want. He even starts selling smuggled steroids alongside Tulum Whiskey.

01:17:51

It's a different thing now. It's like he's like, wait a second, I think I'm good at this.

01:17:55

I think I can do black market shit. Does his wife know anything? I mean, it doesn't seem like he's fighting shit in the shed.

01:18:01

Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't have to testify against him. He's out in the shed. Well, he had the barrels in the shed, right? He's like, honey, don't look in that shed.

01:18:08

Don't go in the she shed. Don't go in the shed. That's my she shed. That's my man cave. So here's the good news. No one at this distillery says a thing to the sheriff.

01:18:19

So that investigation goes cold. There were no snitches at that place. They must have been proud.

01:18:26

That's pretty amazing. I know, right? Probably because they're all maybe all a little bit involved.

01:18:32

So a couple of years pass. Then in March of 2015, a tip finally does come in. The tipster tells officers that a local man has barrels of bourbon suspiciously sitting in his backyard.

01:18:43

And this is how Toby Kurtzinger first lands on Sheriff Milton's radar. Again, I say, do not fight with your neighbors.

01:18:51

Do not over anything for any reason. Everything's great all the time. Yep. Because you get to that kind of shit.

01:18:58

Right. That's where you live. Yeah. You can't get away from them. So before long, investigators head out towards Toby's property and they park on adjacent land, hoping to get a good look at the backyard without having to enter it, which would, of course, require a search warrant.

01:19:13

Then they decide to walk through the woods a little bit. And as they approach the property line, they're hit with a familiar smell.

01:19:19

No. One of the officers will later say, quote, if you grow up in Kentucky, you know what it smells like.

01:19:24

it's kind of a sweet smell and when it's in a barrel like that there's no doubt in your mind

01:19:29

you can smell bourbon i can smell it in every dive bar i've ever been in like you know that smell

01:19:34

yeah you really do wow that's that shouldn't be something's leaking well and also i wonder if it's

01:19:40

like that's hilarious because it's like in petaluma at certain times a year when they turn like the

01:19:44

chicken shit for fertilizer yeah that's what the whole town smells like and i wonder if it's that

01:19:49

thing that's like from childhood yeah you'll just get a waft of bourbon totally that's the biz

01:19:55

Okay, so from here, I had to explain to you how smells work. From here, they easily get a search warrant.

01:20:04

They easily get a search warrant for the shed. They find all sorts of contraband, including five barrels of wild turkey bourbon and a bulk quantity of steroids.

01:20:15

Oh, see, that's federal prison now. That's his little store back there. I got everything from bourbon to steroids and more.

01:20:23

Police also seized Toby's personal cell phone, which is bad because that's what he'd been using the entire time to move all of these stolen goods.

01:20:31

So now the police have the names of Toby's accomplices, his buyers, even the details of the specific deals he's made.

01:20:37

Because he's not a criminal. He's just like casual guy trying to like. Burner phone.

01:20:42

Who needs it? I just work in shipping. Totally. I'm going to get a little money.

01:20:46

I miss softball. I work in shipping. Why can't I have some fun? As investigators piece together this haphazard network, they ultimately recover around 20 barrels of bourbon and two dozen bottles of Pappy Van Winkle.

01:21:01

It's estimated that Toby and his accomplices stole and resold about $100,000 worth of bourbon in this entire scheme.

01:21:08

Okay. Toby's immediately branded the ringleader and he has handed felony theft charges and a misdemeanor for selling those steroids.

01:21:15

Yeah. I guess it's not theft and sales are not. I don't know. I don either but I guess maybe steroids aren a full on big deal narcotic Maybe not as big deal Maybe he didn have a large enough supply intent Maybe the intent I don know Maybe there was a mistake on the paperwork when they were filling it out

01:21:35

Maybe it was actually just cotton candy. Yeah, that's true. And they thought it was steroids.

01:21:39

People were so drunk on bourbon that they're like, these steroids are amazing. We're going to get in trouble for that.

01:21:45

That's not the accent. Don't at us. Don't attack me for my generalized Southern accent.

01:21:53

So Toby pleads guilty and he's sentenced to 15 years in prison. We could have just called Paul Holes about the drugs.

01:21:59

God damn it. Damn it. Class A felony, yes or no? Okay, 15 years. 15 years. Sheriff Milton sees this as a win.

01:22:06

He stands up in front of cameras. He declares Pappygate solved, which must have felt amazing.

01:22:12

Very anticlimactic maybe too. I know. It's no Ocean's Eleven, that's for sure. And while what Toby and his accomplices did is, of course, criminal at the end of the day,

01:22:21

police only recover a handful of stolen Pappy. Much of the bourbon Toby is caught with is from wild turkey.

01:22:30

Reporters from around the world are present at that sheriff's presser, and the word of Toby's arrest is covered in papers as far away as Pakistan.

01:22:39

Wow. People love Pappygate. Just trying to tell me that town didn't have a cold case murder to solve.

01:22:45

I mean, for real. Not to be a bummer. But still, like, can't we get involved in some stuff?

01:22:51

Ten people are ultimately indicted in Toby's bourbon ring. Several of them take plea deals.

01:22:56

Only one person has ever tried convicted and sentenced, and that is Toby Kurtzinger.

01:23:01

He will later say, quote, there's an old saying, the devil deceived me, showed me something I wanted.

01:23:06

It felt good. It looked good. But guess what? Sooner or later, that bill comes due.

01:23:12

Very true, Toby. I mean, it's kind of he probably kind of knew it the whole time.

01:23:17

Yeah, just waiting for it to happen. How do you stop doing a thing that's so easy and seems like.

01:23:22

And if you know you're going to get caught anyways, like why stop now? Just keep going until you get caught.

01:23:28

That's like every heist movie, every kind of criminal. That's Scarface, 100%. Amen.

01:23:34

Toby does not end up serving the full 15 years. Of course not. Instead, he's granted something called shock probation, which is a Kentucky program that basically gives nonviolent first offenders some leniency.

01:23:45

Sounds like a good idea. Great idea. He's paroled after just 30 days and then he serves on probation until 2023.

01:23:52

So for years. So essentially it's just like. Probation. Yeah. Long, long, long probation.

01:24:00

So those weekends of picking up trash. And then you can't travel a certain place.

01:24:06

I don't know all the restrictions. Right. Can't play softball. Oh, my God. What if it's softball only probation?

01:24:12

You can't talk about softball. You can't go to the gym to work out for softball.

01:24:18

So Toby Kurtzinger now lives a quiet life and seems basically to just be working on trying to mend his relationship with his family because there was fallout from the scandal.

01:24:29

And of course, that's the you know, that's the other thing that probably he never even thought of.

01:24:33

Right. Of like when this actually happens. How will it affect everybody else? So to this day, the vast majority of those 200 or so missing bottles of 20-year Pappy from 2013 have never been found.

01:24:45

Wow. And in an unexpected twist, this story has only fueled the bourbon craze and prices of Pappy have skyrocketed since the news of the theft first broke.

01:24:55

I had no idea. Right. So bottles of 20-year Pappy that once went for $1,000 on the secondary market are now worth $5,000 or more.

01:25:04

Holy shit. Inflation, I guess. Right? And also just like it's even harder to get.

01:25:09

It's legendary. Yes. Oh, my God. Because now they put a lock on the area. Imagine that.

01:25:15

Where you keep that. Jesus. They took it all out of the display case. Good. Those are just plastic bottles.

01:25:21

So in a weird way, this entire ordeal, while still being a bit of an embarrassment, has been great for Buffalo Trace's bourbon business.

01:25:28

And that is the story behind the Pappygate bourbon heist. Wow. Did he have to give any of the money back?

01:25:34

Do we know? I don't know. I wonder if he got fined. Probably. Probably. But who knows?

01:25:40

Honestly, I'm thinking about his wife. I don't think I'd leave Vince over that. No way.

01:25:45

No, he's trying to get a little cash going. I'd be disappointed in him, you know, but I don't think I'd divorce him over that.

01:25:51

Because it isn't really, it's liquor. Yeah. It's just liquor he doesn't have the right to sell.

01:25:58

Right. And you could like argue about sticking it to the man. Yeah. I don't know if, I don't know if Buffalo Trace is the man.

01:26:03

Are they? I don't know. Bullet. Let's call the labor board. Excuse me Are they the man dot com needs to be called Get the hot dog phone Do they deserve to be stolen from dot com It a family business

01:26:18

Then no. Wow. Good one. Right. Such a good one. Up note. True crime, but up note.

01:26:26

This is what we try to do. Fun and flirty, but also like serious. Summertime. Yeah.

01:26:31

It's a very hot dog phone coded episode. It is. And that's all we try to give you people.

01:26:37

Yeah, that's right. Is that it? I think that's it. Okay. Thank you guys so much for doing this with us again.

01:26:44

Also, you know, I have to say after six years of not going on the road, George and I were very scared to find out whether or not anybody would care if we were going on the road again.

01:26:55

And your response, you know, hopefully we've said this already, but it really means the world to us that you still give a shit and want to come see us and are doing what you can to do that.

01:27:06

Yeah. We can't wait to be in front of you guys. Screaming and pointing at you. In cute dresses.

01:27:11

And talking about the pockets. Yeah. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

01:27:16

Elvis, do you want a cookie? Hey, it's Lola Blanc. And Megan Elizabeth. We're so excited to announce the return of our podcast, Trust Me, on Wednesday, July 30th.

01:27:32

Trust Me is a podcast about cults, extreme belief, manipulation, and high control groups.

01:27:37

and we know all about it because we're survivors ourselves. Each week we talk to former believers, experts,

01:27:43

and sometimes even the people still inside to analyze how these systems work and how smart everyday people get pulled in.

01:27:50

Because it's not just robes and compounds. Sometimes it's your friend group, your yoga studio,

01:27:56

your unlicensed therapist. We know what this experience feels like and we're here to make sense of it.

01:28:01

And now you can find us on the Exactly Right Podcast Network. That's right. we're so excited to announce that Trust Me has officially joined the ranks along with Exactly

01:28:11

Rights, captivating true crime hits like My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones. Same show,

01:28:17

same us, new charismatic leader. So if you're into cults, coercion, or just wild human behavior,

01:28:23

you're in the right place. Trust Me returns on July 30th and drops new episodes every Wednesday,

01:28:30

now on Exactly Right. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,

01:28:37

you're going to want to hear this. Trust me. Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

01:29:08

Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:29:13

And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

01:29:18

Goodbye. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?

01:29:31

Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prince's Music is Therapy. a weekly podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.

01:29:38

It's Mental Health Month. Let's figure out what actually works. I didn't care about my life circumstance when I listened to that stuff.

01:29:45

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01:29:50

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search DJ Hester Prince Music is Therapy, and start listening now.

01:29:55

Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Moms. So I'm Leanne.

01:30:01

Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hip since high school.

01:30:05

Absolutely. A redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips.

01:30:10

This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.

01:30:15

With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO.

01:30:21

Well, then you got them. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:30:28

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, Nick?

01:30:31

Huge news. we created our own podcast called hey jonas how do we actually come up with the name hey jonas guys

01:30:37

i honestly don't remember we were talking about a fit for the podcast where people could call in

01:30:42

and say hey jonas and then i wrote down on my little notepad hey jonas and offered it up as a

01:30:47

potential title for the podcast but thanks for remembering that guys listen to hey jonas on the

01:30:52

iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts just listen we don't care where

01:30:57

you hear it

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgi

489 - We Are Your Baby

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