00:00:00
This is exactly right. I'm going to get a hard seltzer instead of beer. Oh, they hit a BOGO.
00:00:32
Well, then you got them. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:38
How much do you weigh, Wanda? Right now, I'm about 130. I'm at 183. We should race.
00:00:42
No, I want to leave here with my original hips. On the podcast to match up with L'Aleah, I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests.
00:00:49
On a recent episode, I sat down with undisputed boxing champ, Clarissa Shields, and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard,
00:00:56
the art of trash talk and what it really means to be ladylike. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the matchup with Aaliyah, and listen now.
00:01:03
Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network. But thanks for remembering that, guys.
00:01:31
Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:36
Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
00:01:57
Rewind. Rewind. And every Wednesday, and you might know this, we go back and we recap our old shows and we give it all new commentary.
00:02:05
We give it updates. We bring some insights. We do our thing. And today we're doing our thing with episode 54, which we named Valet Area.
00:02:13
This episode came out on February 2nd, 2017, year two of the podcast. We were in it.
00:02:21
We were in it. So let's listen to the intro of episode 54. moments of staring at each other i thought we were gonna say hi at the same time i know but
00:02:32
i didn't know when you were gonna start ready same here hi how are you what the what the welcome to my favorite murder it's a show where we talk at the same time time
00:02:49
That's George Hardstart. That's Karen Kilgariff. This is my favorite murder. Welcome.
00:02:57
So glad you could make it. Thanks for coming. Thanks for staying for at least 10 minutes, we hope.
00:03:02
Give us 10. We're going to do this for 10 minutes. Just a lot of back and forth.
00:03:06
Yep. Yep. If you're into that, hang out. If no, bye bye. Yeah. See you in 20, actually 20 minutes when we start the murders.
00:03:15
See you in 45 minutes when I begin to kill. commit to the project that is my favorite murder.
00:03:22
Yeah. We're being realistic now. Do you love your, you got a manicure? I got a manicure today.
00:03:27
I did need to look at my nails. I know. Isn't it fun? You're, you're gazing lovingly at your nails.
00:03:31
I've never seen you do that before. Here's the thing. And I just talked about this,
00:03:34
but to you, but having, I, so now I work on Guy Branham's TV show. And on this TV show,
00:03:43
I get, for it's sometimes eight 30 in the morning, I get three grown women who stand around me doing my hair and makeup for hours.
00:03:54
And it is so fun. I love it. And like people just teasing my hair for like 45 minutes straight.
00:04:01
The best. And shaping it. So I have really good hair. Doing makeup, very lightly brushing my face for an hour.
00:04:08
Amazing. I start to realize like on the first day, because this is a very collapsed schedule, it's been hard.
00:04:15
we've worked a lot. Which is why we're recording on a Sunday instead of a Tuesday. That's right.
00:04:19
Because this next week is going to be the same and crazy. Um, but so the first day we went to tape,
00:04:25
I sat down at my, so it's a, it's called talk show, the game show guy is hosting guy Branham,
00:04:31
friend of the show, expert lawyer, guy Branham. It's a talk show. Uh, he's the host and I'm a
00:04:38
judge where people come out and they get, they do an interview with guy and then I judge them
00:04:43
and tell them how they did. God, that sounds like a dream job. Just like... Super fun.
00:04:48
Yeah, and you don't get judged. You just talk shit on people. Hell no. They can't say shit to me.
00:04:52
Don't fucking talk to me. But going through like basically the beauty, a glam squad every morning makes me realize
00:05:01
how like the first day after I left, Diane, who's my makeup person, handed me a mask and she goes,
00:05:08
why don't you put this on tonight? Oh my God. And it was basically like thing by thing
00:05:12
where it's like, oh yeah, that's right. Like I go home and then just go to sleep
00:05:15
and don't wash my face. They're like, can you make our lives a little easier, please?
00:05:18
Can you not make this so that we have to put you together like a wax goddamn dummy?
00:05:24
And so then, you know, like one day I realized I have to hold up signs. I need to paint my fingernails.
00:05:29
No, dude, I get it when you're like, oh, this person, I have done the bare minimum of looking good.
00:05:34
Yes. And now, but then once I do it, it's like, oh, this is fun. Doesn't it feel nice to take care, to pamper yourself?
00:05:40
It really does. So today I really like it. So today I was like, I just did my nails last week really fast. I do
00:05:47
that too. But so today I went and got a manicure in Silver Lake and it was nice. And the lady Rose
00:05:53
was did it really awesomely It so sweet that you find out the names of your man She asked me my name and then I asked her her name I love it It was fun When I went to leave also but my glam ended because it was the weekend
00:06:05
So I had no makeup on and looked a lot like a scumbag. You saw me that morning. Went to leave.
00:06:11
I told you in the morning, you look beautiful. Well, I can't have it. I don't think I said beautiful.
00:06:14
I think I said, you look so pretty. Right. I think beautiful is like kind of a come on.
00:06:17
And then I was like, get away from me in the valet area and ran away from you. I was working valet that morning.
00:06:23
George had her little hat on and she brought my car around. I told her to get away from me, went and got a manicure.
00:06:30
As I was getting rung up, a girl who was getting her manicure looked up at me and goes,
00:06:35
Karen? And I go, yeah. Cause I was like, oh, does she work with me? Is it somebody that like, I haven't talked to that much, whatever.
00:06:41
And then she goes, I love your podcast. But she was like, she was getting a manicure.
00:06:45
So she was kind of weirdly stuck. It wasn't like we could shake hands or say hi or anything.
00:06:49
And I immediately got so self-conscious that I had like these crazy nice nails. And then other than that, I really looked like I rolled out from under a bridge.
00:06:58
I was like, oh, thanks. Bye. And just ran away so quickly. So I just wanted to say to that girl, if you're listening, which she might have quit at this point because I was so not all that friendly to her.
00:07:10
Hi. Hi. I'm sorry. I didn't ask you what your name was. I'm sorry. I didn't say I sorry.
00:07:14
I didn't have a moment with you. I was kind of embarrassed. I'm kind of embarrassed
00:07:19
in general that's just like how are you feeling today? kind of embarrassed kind of generally embarrassed
00:07:24
yeah but I'm working on it yeah so high to her but the thing is too that she knows so much
00:07:28
about you at this point and like doesn't expect you to like she doesn't think you're gonna be
00:07:33
Chrissy fucking Teigen you know what I mean? yeah like we haven't fucking positioned ourselves
00:07:37
to be Chrissy fucking I mean Chrissy Teigen seems like a chill chick but like but she looks like
00:07:41
for some reason I can't drop the Chrissy Teigen expectation it's my problem oh yeah no one
00:07:46
I kind of am like oh maybe I look like I kind of get that because I'm like I'm not wearing
00:07:51
makeup anymore and then I'll see myself sometimes and be like oh my god I look like I'm on my way to rehab
00:07:55
and like do people like my neighborhood fucking cafe are they like is she okay I have like some acne scars
00:08:01
right now so it looks a little like I've been picking at my face you know like yes
00:08:04
I want to be presentable presentable you want to be presentable if my mom saw me who's a fucking really
00:08:11
into images everything she'd be like she'd be worried about me my mom, I have a tape in my head of my mom who used to always, if you would like walk through
00:08:19
the kitchen, it would just be like after school one day or like casual time. My mom would be the
00:08:25
one that go, Oh God, put some lipstick on. You look like a corpse. That was like her great quote.
00:08:30
So I have that kind of thing where I'm like really in the house, you need me to wear lipstick lady.
00:08:35
It's so moms, the minute she sees me, she tells me how something I am doing that she likes it
00:08:40
better when I do the other way around like if I have short hair oh I like your hair longer
00:08:46
not like you look it's like oh I like your hair shorter like it's just like here's what you've
00:08:53
done that doesn't please me yes and and I'm like fuck you you voted for Trump what do you fuck you
00:08:59
here's what you fucking mom that's right you don't get to tell me nothing anymore no no no no no no
00:09:05
moms moms and dads um do we have corners um oh I have a couple corners can I tell you something
00:09:14
I'm never talking about yes Vince and I have this I'm gonna share a real intimate not intimate but
00:09:20
an inside joke that my husband and I have that we're the only people who know what this is and
00:09:24
we kind of love it and share it together and I'm gonna just tell a few people right now and every
00:09:28
time we say any kind of corner thing I think of this and Vince so whenever the word corner comes
00:09:34
up. Vince and I say to each other, corner, corner, corner. And the reason is because we would go to
00:09:39
this like late night diner in Los Feliz called House of Pies. That's like the fucking best,
00:09:44
like old school diner. And there was this chick who was a waitress there who was like,
00:09:48
like late night waitress. You could tell she was on like Adderall and fucking like buzzing on coffee
00:09:53
and shit. She was really cool, but she was like clearly buzzing. And every time she'd have hot
00:09:58
plates on her, you know, when you're a waitress and you have to say behind you, behind you,
00:10:02
when you're like behind someone with plates so they don't walk into you, she would come around
00:10:05
the corner with these hot plates and go corner, corner, corner, corner, corner, corner. So you'd
00:10:09
be eating your chicken pot pie or whatever. You just keep going corner, corner, corner.
00:10:12
And then we just fucking crack up. So whenever we hear someone say corner, and this was like
00:10:16
three years ago and we're still like corner, corner, corner. Now I just told everyone. So
00:10:19
let's do corner, corner, corner. I love it. Is it corner, corner, corner time? It is.
00:10:24
Well, we were at that live show. We got to meet some people afterwards and there were two different
00:10:28
girls who took the time to tell us that we, this podcast meant a lot to them because they were
00:10:35
going through a really hard time and that they were like one, the one girl said it, I'm sorry,
00:10:41
I don't remember your name. The way you phrased it was you were these great voices in my head when I
00:10:46
only had bad voices in my head. And it was so touching to me, but it also was the same exact
00:10:53
thing that a different girl said. And I was like, I said to her, just so you know, that's just what
00:10:58
someone else said. Shut up. I don't remember this. Yeah. That's the first girl said, and I was like,
00:11:02
someone else just said that. And then she was like, Oh, where I was like, I wanted to go,
00:11:07
like go over there and talk to her, but that's weird. But it was just very, A, it was very
00:11:13
touching that we could help somebody that would be in that position. But B, if you are in that
00:11:19
position and you have those feelings, get help, figure out a way to find a therapist, go online,
00:11:25
look it up. It's, there's, you know, like it's good to get help for yourself and it's good to
00:11:32
solve those problems. They're solvable problems. We've both been there. And it's good to have friends too. And I have to say the Facebook group is they, those people are,
00:11:41
everyone's becoming friends and everyone will talk to you and everyone will help you with
00:11:45
something. And it's like a really good resource for people who, who listen to this because they
00:11:49
need help. I think, I mean, I completely also get help from a fucking professional, but it is a
00:11:54
really cool Like I think a lot of people are making friends off of it Yeah It seems like it Yeah And we relate because and we talk about this all the time like there are lots of podcasts I listen to that when I listen to them
00:12:05
it like, it's my friends who have their own podcast or it's somebody else, you know, whatever that I love.
00:12:12
But like, I start listening to it and I feel better. I feel like I'm with people I like.
00:12:16
I feel like I'm hanging out. Like my loneliness goes away. My anxiety goes away.
00:12:21
And so we get it. I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at this meme I saw that says on the top, um, what I, what I'm like when I listen to
00:12:29
podcasts. And it's this billboard of these three cute girls, like eating ice cream. And then there's
00:12:36
this dude sitting next to the billboard, like laughing along with them and eating a bowl of
00:12:40
ice cream. And it's like, it's like how you listen to podcasts, which I fucking, I'm the same way.
00:12:46
Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Now we have Laura Kilgariff corner. that's sister sister sister corner so my sister goes on the facebook page and tells me stories
00:12:55
that she loves and she has great taste so this one is especially awesome and it's uh kristin
00:13:02
michelle mcclure story that she posted on the facebook page and it's fucking crazy so she says
00:13:09
her boyfriend was sick so she drove up to mccallister's in addison texas to pick up some
00:13:13
food and iced tea for dinner and the parking lot was pretty dark and the only people there
00:13:18
that late were the staff and one woman who left shortly after she got there. And when she got her order, she walked outside to see the woman from before smoking a cigarette.
00:13:29
And suddenly she comes over to me. I switched it. Now it's first person. Suddenly she comes over to
00:13:34
me and says, hi, oh my God, it's so good to see you. How have you been? And I'm sure I looked
00:13:39
very confused as I responded. I'm sorry. I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't
00:13:47
think I know you. And her voice got quiet and she said, pretend like you do. There's a man hiding
00:13:52
behind your car. Fucking chills, you guys. I'm a very observant and spatially aware person,
00:13:57
but I never would have known he was there if it wasn't for this amazing lady. So I let her walk
00:14:02
me to my car. And as I do, she explains that she saw him lurking as she was leaving and got a bad
00:14:07
feeling. So she decided to wait for me. What an angel baby. That is so incredibly nice. And we
00:14:13
really need to be doing that for each other yes sure enough we get to my car and a man in a hoodie
00:14:19
stands up from behind my passenger rear side and nonchalantly walks into the dumpster alley
00:14:25
dumpster alleys we're fucking lurkers lurk uh uh so as we're saying goodbye she smiled and said
00:14:34
stay sexy don't get murdered what the fuck are the chances a mer a fellow murderino probably
00:14:40
saved me from being robbed, assaulted, kidnapped, murdered, God knows what. And I'm so thankful for
00:14:46
her. I didn't catch her name, but if you're listening or, but if you're reading this, thank
00:14:50
you. Let's listen to MFM, drink wine and catch and watch murder documentaries sometime. So then
00:14:57
there's an update from Chaney Coles with this girl. Holy shit. It's Chaney Coles, Kristen,
00:15:04
Michelle McClure and Emily Burke. And Chaney Coles is saying, so a lot of you probably saw
00:15:09
Kristen's post yesterday about how a fellow murderino saved her when a hooded man was hiding behind her car at
00:15:15
McAllister's. If you didn't scroll down, it's a crazy story. I live in Dallas so I commented that I wanted to be her
00:15:21
friend since we're practically neighbors. A few chats via Messenger and Facebook friendship later
00:15:27
she and I and my murderino best friend Emily met for drinks last night and discussed all kinds of murders.
00:15:33
The tables around us thought we were weird but we had a great time. This podcast
00:15:37
and this group makes me so happy. Murderinos unite is the last line. And when my sister sent me that, I started crying and I was like, that's the coolest,
00:15:48
that idea right there of somebody noticing something that might be bad and taking the
00:15:54
time to look out for another person. And the idea that the reason they might do that is because they were emboldened by the
00:16:01
shit that you and I say. Stop it. My therapist is trying to make me cry more and I'm going to try to do it because I really
00:16:06
want to, but there's something inside of me that won't let me do it. but stop it. Yes. Keep going. I'm so proud of us. I left therapy the other day and just texted you.
00:16:15
I'm really proud of us. You did. I'm proud of us too. I want to cry. And we'll just don't do it now. You do it. I mean, Jesus Christ. And you're like sitting there
00:16:26
like, I've got to cry on this podcast. I already did it today. So that's, I got it out of the way.
00:16:29
You did it at lunch. It's just a cool thing. It's like, you know, it's a beautiful,
00:16:34
That's the point. It's so wonderful. That's the point. And I'm just proud of, I'm proud of us.
00:16:37
Good job, everybody. Good job, you guys. We fucking did it. We're staying sexy. We're not getting murdered.
00:16:42
We're making friends. Extending yourself to people who might be in a bad place. That's kind of like, that's the, that's what we're looking for these days.
00:16:51
And we're fucking, like, we're putting those fucking dumpster alley lurkers in their place
00:16:56
of like, no, you can't fucking, you can't do this, dude. No. Or, you know, maybe that guy was peeing.
00:17:01
Either way, that girl got in her car and got home safe at the end. Peers can attack people too.
00:17:07
You know, maybe he was doing both. Maybe he had a pee and... It could have been a pee attack.
00:17:12
A pee attack. Ooh. Anyway. This has been my favorite murder. Goodbye. That was gorgeous.
00:17:18
Oh, my phone just told me Robert Durst hearings are... Is it tomorrow? It's... Oh, the February 15th.
00:17:26
Sorry. It came up as an alert just now. That's really weird. All right. Good job.
00:17:31
Hey, should we talk about, how many minutes was that? We told people 10 minutes.
00:17:36
22. What the fuck? Hey, Suri, how many minutes? Oh my God, Suri just started talking to me
00:17:44
without me pressing anything. You think my new place is haunted? Yes. Me too. And we're back.
00:17:53
Oh, is this where Corner Corner Corner started? It is I don remember me running away from you at the valet What was that whole story No idea Because I was like racking my brain of like where were we Oh remember when you stepped off the curb at that restaurant across from Meltdown
00:18:09
And you twisted your ankle? That's right. Chibo. But I also remember the time we were walking out of, I think it was Milwaukee live show.
00:18:18
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just stepped off, did the exact same thing. I've done it many, many times.
00:18:23
You don't need a valet to twist your fucking ankle. Hell no, I'll do it anytime.
00:18:27
So that Facebook group story that we talk about in here, to me, was the dawning of the galvanized community vibe of murderinos.
00:18:37
As opposed to the, I'd say the first years like you and me blabbing it up, saying whatever the fuck that came into our minds, not understanding it was being recorded and posted forever.
00:18:47
Right. And that we would be hearing about that. So I think to me, that was the first year of like, wait, what are we actually doing?
00:18:53
Yeah. And this is before people started realizing that their co-worker or their sister's friend or their running club partner is also listening.
00:19:03
Right. And then forming a bond over it. Right. And then that Facebook story is almost like then the bond was I'm going to go out into the world with this energy.
00:19:11
Yeah. So if I see some weird shit happening to some girl I don't know, I'm going to back her up.
00:19:17
That's right. It's amazing. Beautiful thing. Yeah. We're so proud. We were just kind of like the thing around which people decided they were going to do things the way they wanted to do them.
00:19:29
There you go. Right? All right. Well, should we get into it? Let's do it. This episode is two awful, awful stories of two of the worst men that have ever existed.
00:19:38
For real. This first one, this is George's story about Nathaniel Barjona. Your husband is not who you think he is.
00:19:49
Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.
00:19:54
I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
00:20:02
And just then, we felt the plane turn in the air. So much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:20:12
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,
00:20:19
and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,
00:20:25
but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything.
00:20:29
And me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:20:34
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:20:39
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:20:47
Before NXIVM, Nancy Solzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody, it's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.
00:20:55
She trained in something called neurolinguistic programming. People loved our training.
00:21:00
Then, everything changed. Yeah, and they called it a cult. How does a method designed to improve lives end up in a cult?
00:21:07
A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.
00:21:15
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21:23
I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.
00:21:32
Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:21:44
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21:55
I think you're first this week. Okay. So let's start. What was that show called that you recently told me?
00:22:03
The New Detectives. I had a story and then realized when looking it up that they had covered the story on that show.
00:22:10
Not new detectives. Real detectives. Real detectives. And so there was so much more to the story.
00:22:16
So I was like, okay, I'm still going to do this, but I'm going to give a shout out to the show Karen likes at the same time.
00:22:20
All right. So in Worcester, Massachusetts in 1964, a kid named Nathaniel Barr Jonah is seven years old.
00:22:29
he tells a five-year-old neighbor that he had just gotten a Ouija board and she follows him
00:22:35
into his basement to play with it he attempts to strangle the five-year-old girl the seven-year-old
00:22:41
attempts to strangle the five-year-old girl she screams his own mother comes down and rescues her
00:22:47
so like his mom knows something's up already you know what I mean so this fucking seven-year-old
00:22:53
cut to six years later in 1970. He's 13 years old. He lures another neighbor, a six-year-old boy
00:22:59
to a nearby hill saying that he wants to go sledding with him. And of course, he didn't go sledding. He ends up sexually assaulting the kid. And then in March, 1975,
00:23:12
17-year-old Nathaniel Barjona, he's doing the fucking classic impersonation of an officer,
00:23:19
a police officer abducts an eight-year-old kid named Richard O'Connor who's on his way to school
00:23:25
sexually assaults and strangles him a neighbor saw this happening and notifies the police they
00:23:32
find a car matching the description in a parking lot they get him out of the car and the kid is
00:23:39
found in the car near death but alive so Nathaniel is arrested charged and convicted
00:23:47
but he receives you ready for this a year of probation for this crime i i how yeah because it's 1970
00:24:00
but okay probation the kid's not dead I mean he must have had some insane lawyer or some kind of
00:24:07
yeah that's crazy no I think that happened all the well it gets worse okay it always gets worse
00:24:12
so a few days before he graduates from high school uh he's again impersonating a police officer and
00:24:18
he abducts a nine-year-old girl who he assaults savagely in his car and then later throws her from
00:24:24
the car into a sidewalk. She's still alive. And a witness gets his license plate, which leads to
00:24:30
his arrest. And this assault never gets back to his probation officer. And so he's released from
00:24:36
parole from the earlier assault in 1976. And so when his probationary period is over, he receives
00:24:46
a letter thanking him for his cooperation. So he never gets... No. Sorry, what? His parole ends in
00:24:57
76. They catch him and I don't know if he ever got charged with anything after they found the kid,
00:25:04
after he threw her out of her car. But the probation officer never finds out about it,
00:25:10
So nothing is added to his sentence. What the fuck? Yeah. So in September 1977, he's claiming to be an undercover FBI agent.
00:25:19
And he convinces two boys to get into his car. He goes to a secluded area with them and he handcuffs them and assaults them.
00:25:27
And he thought he had killed one of the boys. So he took the other one still alive in his trunk and drove off.
00:25:33
But the kid he thought was dead was a not dead. He regains consciousness and fucking finds help.
00:25:39
and the boy who was kidnapped is found still alive in Nathaniel's trunk. So he's caught,
00:25:46
convicted of attempted murder and gets the maximum sentence of 18 to 20 years in prison. So fucking
00:25:51
finally he's being incarcerated. So while he's incarcerated, he tells a psychologist there
00:25:59
about his fantasies of murder, dissection and cannibalism. It's a psychiatrist and she,
00:26:05
that psychiatrist decides to commit him to the Bridgewater State Hospital for the sexual predators,
00:26:11
which I think means that you don't have a release date. I think they can keep you indefinitely.
00:26:16
I could be wrong. Guy Brennan, please let me know. So he stays in the hospital from 79 to 91
00:26:24
when there's a hearing before Superior Court Judge Walter E. Steele, who needs to be fucking named,
00:26:31
two psychiatrists say that uh nathaniel barjona is a danger to society and he should not be let
00:26:38
out two of them said he isn't so we got two and two the judge sides with the i said the judge
00:26:44
sided with the stupid ones and said that he thought that nathaniel barjona would not commit
00:26:49
the crime again and decided that he the state had failed to prove he was dangerous so this dude
00:26:55
fucking superior court judge Walter E. Steele lets bar Jonah out. Does his family have money?
00:27:02
He must have amazing lawyers. I don't think it was that difficult then though. You know what I mean?
00:27:09
There's no Megan's law. There's none of this shit where like, where they think predators
00:27:14
and sexual abusers are even important enough to let their next door neighbor who has children
00:27:19
and know that they're there. Like it's not a priority. Yeah, but it's, I mean, these are attacks.
00:27:27
They're physical attacks. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to just be like,
00:27:31
he attacks a little girl, throws her out of a car and thanks for doing such a great job in your parole.
00:27:37
Like that doesn't even track. No, it doesn't. And it's the same when we're talking with Guy Brennan
00:27:41
where it's like, well, his intent was to kill these people. Why isn't he kept in prison in the same amount of time
00:27:47
that someone who had actually killed them are? And it's just because he got lucky for, you know, he just kept getting lucky.
00:27:53
I mean, that's beyond lucky where he's not getting arrested for it. Like he's not even.
00:27:58
I think it's a fucked up justice system at the time. I think that's all it is. So he leaves the institution and he promises to not go back to Massachusetts, that instead he'll go to Montana.
00:28:15
But Megan's law is still being debated. It's not enacted yet, which, you know, as everyone knows, Megan's law is that if you're a sexual offender, you have to notify everyone in the community and they're allowed to know where you live and all this.
00:28:31
So, okay. So he has weekly garage sales selling Star Wars memorabilia and stuffed animals that attracts many local children.
00:28:42
and let's see within a week he commits another attack on a child and then no one in Montana is notified of his past crimes at all so on February 6 1996 10 year old Zachary
00:29:03
Ramsey is on his way to school at about 7 30 a.m he takes his usual school route through the alleyway
00:29:09
And remember those fucking shortcuts he used to take to school? Like the shortcuts I used to take as a kid, the amount of places I could have been murdered in is just more than I couldn't have been murdered in. You know what I mean? Like fucking alleyways and like back alleys and fucking, what are those called? Like the river, dry riverbeds and just these horrible places.
00:29:31
and a family who lives in along the alleyway reports seeing him but also sees an off-white
00:29:41
four-door car that nearly runs him over another witness who lived in the area sees him distressed
00:29:47
with an obese adult male following him a few feet behind at about 7 45 Zach then disappears
00:29:54
which is another thing of fucking if you see something fucking say something if you see a little kid upset with an adult and something doesn look right you can be rude and be like
00:30:05
is everything okay here? You know what I mean? You're not going to get in trouble for it.
00:30:11
Let's see. Okay. So the police investigate Zach Ramsey's kidnapping. And it turns out that
00:30:21
Nathaniel Barjona, who was a known sex offender in the area, although there were a lot of them,
00:30:26
has access to his mom's off-white four-door Toyota Corolla the day that Zach goes missing.
00:30:32
And his mother was out of town for a funeral. And so he had the house to himself.
00:30:37
And he also didn't work that day. So he stays away from the police until 99, when he's arrested near an elementary school in Great Falls, Montana. He's dressed as a policeman.
00:30:46
He's carrying a stun gun and pepper spray and is like fucking targeting one of the kids there.
00:30:52
And they search his apartment and they find a list of boys' names, including previous victims that he had actually had and the name Zachary Ramsey, the last word of which was died because he had done these crazy encryptions.
00:31:07
And so when the FBI finally took apart everything, they found all of these names.
00:31:11
There's dozens of newspaper clippings found in his apartment following the Zach Ramsey case.
00:31:17
And a former roommate said that he found clothes in his apartment, which matched Zachary Ramsey's clothes that he was wearing the day he disappeared and bloody gloves.
00:31:26
So they also found encrypted menus referring to cannibalizing children. and there were actual, I don't want to, I don't know if you want to hear them, but like
00:31:37
names of, of meals that were like puns on children being the fucking on the menu.
00:31:46
It's pretty fuck. It's like, it's almost, it's too like, it takes too light. I don't like it,
00:31:51
but it's gross. Um, cause he thinks he's being like funny. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a disgusting
00:31:57
sensitive yeah it's not it's not amusing in any way it's fucked up and it's also said that he
00:32:03
possibly um cut up and served human meat of his victims to his neighbors at barbecues and cookouts
00:32:13
and stews and hamburgers and there was one woman his neighbor who said this tastes really weird
00:32:18
what is this and he said oh it's a deer i found and i cut it up myself and she remembers oh it
00:32:25
tasting weird. I mean, can you have barbecues? Fucking imagine the eating disorder you would have if you
00:32:31
were that neighbor. Can you imagine ever you'd be vegan for the rest of your life?
00:32:34
Oh my God. Never eat meat again. I know. It's really horrible. I know. Okay. And they also find a list of 22 names,
00:32:47
many which were past victims, known victims, but several have never been accounted for.
00:32:52
And they also dug up the yard and found 21 bone fragments of a yet to be identified boy estimated between eight and 13. And it's not
00:33:01
Zach Ramsey's bones. Okay. So in July 2000, he's charged with Zach Ramsey's murder and for
00:33:09
kidnapping and sexually assaulting three other boys who lived above him in an apartment complex,
00:33:14
who he would babysit, who was the mom would just leave him, leave the kids with him.
00:33:19
Even though she was like, yeah, one of them started acting real weird after I'd let him
00:33:23
babysit and it's like I didn't you know so but the charges involving Zach Ramsey's murder are
00:33:31
dropped because the Zach's mom refused to believe that he was dead and so would testify
00:33:36
that Barjona or Nathaniel Barjona never killed her son she was going to testify to that
00:33:43
but he's sentenced for the other charges to 130 years in prison it's for sexually assaulting one
00:33:48
kid and torturing another and on April 13 2008 Nathaniel Barjone is found dead in his prison cell it's his death is either a heart attack or a
00:33:59
brain clot I can't really a lot of different you know articles and then eventually a judge declares
00:34:06
Zach Ramsey legally dead in 2011 despite his mom still objecting to that how fucked up is that
00:34:13
it's super fucked up it's like one of those murder it's like one of those articles that's
00:34:19
like 10 serial killers you've never fucking or 10 monsters you've never heard of and like why are
00:34:24
you know why are these other people heard of and he's not he's just as huge of a fucking monster
00:34:29
well that's the real detectives that i saw yeah that was the first one i saw with the detective
00:34:35
who's like crying it was crazy and he chased that guy forever and he literally chased he he tracked
00:34:43
him down and and by the time somebody said oh well that like he kept hearing oh they went on
00:34:50
the shortcut so he walked the shortcut himself finally like it was like beat cops were telling
00:34:55
him the information so he finally himself walked the shortcut and when he came up the alley bar
00:35:02
jonas was standing at the top of the alley dressed like a security guard across the street from the
00:35:08
grammar school and the good, the guy in the show is like, you know, like, and that's when I knew I
00:35:15
had my guy and, and the most horrible part, like I looked into that too, of like, Oh, would this be
00:35:21
a good one to do there? The details are so fucking disturbing. It's awful. It's just like,
00:35:30
yeah, it's that kind of thing where it's like, Oh, that's interesting. I feel like maybe that's
00:35:34
the reason why it's, he's one that you don't hear that much about, it's because it's like
00:35:38
insanely disgusting and awful. And he did it to a bunch of kids. Well, what's so surprising to me about this story. And one of the reasons I think it's
00:35:45
important to talk about is because Zach Ramsey was taking these shortcuts in 1996. Like it wasn't
00:35:51
the eighties or even the early nineties which is when I was doing those things It it seems like more recent And I feel like he was alone early in the morning And I know it seems like a well place and everyone going to school but you can
00:36:05
you can't do those things. I don't think anyone does anymore. And especially because people saw that happening and were like, this is weird. And like went on
00:36:12
with their day. Right. It's just so troubling. And well, and also that guy dressed, he did,
00:36:17
I mean, he was like a real, he knew what he was doing. Like dressing like a security guard,
00:36:22
that thing that people fall for all the time where it's like, oh, it's a cop. It's a security guard.
00:36:26
The person standing outside the school that's dressed like an official must be a good person.
00:36:32
And to see like, yeah, it's, yeah, it's crazy. And also that he did it. I mean, the idea that like his first thing was when he was seven years old.
00:36:45
I couldn't find any information about his childhood and how, you know, it could have not been fucked up at all.
00:36:51
could just be fucking crazy, but there had to be something going on that he would try to strangle
00:36:56
a five-year-old when he was seven. Yeah. Makes you think of Mary Bell. Yeah, totally. Just an
00:37:01
outright evil kid. But also what's happened. I mean, Mary Bell was a total victim as a very young
00:37:08
child and that affects you. And I wonder what could have happened. Like his mom found him
00:37:13
strangling a little girl, you know, what could have been done to help him at that age?
00:37:19
yeah and clearly nothing was yeah yeah clearly so intense yeah but also the um the really creepy
00:37:27
thing is like seven it's like the movie seven where he had all these notebooks just tons and
00:37:32
tons and tons of notebooks that they recovered yeah that was he obsessively wrote about i mean
00:37:38
he was yeah he was insanely crazy it's like he knew that if he did get caught he wanted there to
00:37:43
be as much information as possible. So he'd be talked about. Yeah. And then I did it. And if you
00:37:49
watch that episode of Real Detectives, the real detective that, that solves that case, who talks
00:37:56
about it, like at one point is crying on camera. Like he is so clearly it's, it's one of those
00:38:02
things where that's the case of a lifetime and the horror, so horrible. Yeah. Yep. Horrifying. Yeah.
00:38:09
Okay, we're done with that now. Let's take a deep breath. Are there updates on this horrible case?
00:38:20
Horrible case, no updates, but two books have come out recently about his crimes.
00:38:25
Preponderance of Evil, the Nathaniel Barr Jonah story by Lori Olson. And also the book Eat the Evidence by Dr. John E. Espy.
00:38:33
Those two came out in the past few years. So if you want more info, I mean, I've done deep dives since then on this story.
00:38:40
It's just so awful. But yeah, there you go. All right. Let's get into another terrible fucking person.
00:38:46
God. And much more famous. Much more famous. Let's hear Karen's story about none other than Rodney Alcala, the dating game killer.
00:38:58
Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.
00:39:03
Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
00:39:14
And just then, we felt the plane turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:39:23
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves.
00:39:35
My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive
00:39:39
because I wasn't eating anything. And me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:39:46
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:39:51
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:39:59
In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.
00:40:06
You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once.
00:40:11
It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.
00:40:19
Greg Gillespie and Michael Marancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.
00:40:25
Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.
00:40:31
Listen to Love Trapped Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:01
Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO. Well, then you got it.
00:41:05
Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:12
You want to go? Woo! You mean leave right now? Mine is very well known this week.
00:41:24
uh it's rodney alcala the dating game killer um this one i've seen like i've seen the forensic
00:41:35
files of this guy i have seen like a 2020 like almost everything on discovery id there's been
00:41:41
every version of one of those shows they they have featured this guy because it's
00:41:46
the dating game thing is such a fucking that that's what did it for his fame yeah it's so
00:41:52
insane But there was one of those shows that kind of reverse engineered it where they followed the victim And now I don remember the show I don remember which victim it is because he has so very many
00:42:06
but it's that thing where basically this girl goes missing and her family's trying to find her,
00:42:11
her family's trying to find her. And then eventually this cache of photographs because Rodney Alcala is this photographer.
00:42:20
And when he's finally arrested and they start going through thousands and thousands of photographs,
00:42:26
they find a picture of her and they finally realize, I think it was the hiker. She was a hiker and she was like a real outdoors woman.
00:42:33
And then they find a picture among all these really disturbing pictures. And they can't identify all, like there's so many of those photos are like,
00:42:40
do you know who this is? Are they missing? Cold cases. They say they're still online.
00:42:45
Okay. So here's the, here's the basic story. And we'll start it here in 1978 on the popular TV show,
00:42:51
the dating game host Jim Lang introduced Rodney Alcala as bachelor. Number one is a,
00:42:57
is a successful photographer who got his start when his father found him in the dark room at age 13,
00:43:02
fully developed. Wait, what? Well, that's the show. Have you ever seen it? but what?
00:43:08
So it's like sexual innuendo. Basically that it's basically like the fun sexual innuendo when you're not a
00:43:15
serial rapist and killer is fine. But when you are, it's so horrifying. and the rest of that is between takes,
00:43:22
you might find him skydiving or motorcycling. Or murdering. Actor Jed Mills, who was bachelor number two on the show
00:43:31
and competed against Alcala, described him as a very strange guy with very bizarre opinions.
00:43:38
And the funny thing is the bachelorette, Cheryl Bradshaw, chose Alcala. He won the dating game, but when she met him,
00:43:46
she refused to go out with him because she found him so creepy. Oh my God, I want to talk to her.
00:43:53
She was right to find him creepy because he had already raped an eight-year-old girl
00:43:56
and murdered four women when he was on that show. Four women already? Four women.
00:44:02
And then he's like, I'm going to go on TV. What a cocky fuck. So he was basically mid-killing spree
00:44:07
that had started, they believe in, well, he raped the eight-year-old girl in 1968.
00:44:15
um and then the killing began soon after and he's in the middle of all that goes on a game show
00:44:22
um so yeah he's completely out of his goddamn mind and kind of like a luke luke magnati like
00:44:29
it's that thing of like i want to be famous i want everyone to see me like you can't catch me
00:44:34
yeah i'm smart i'm smarter than everybody he did have 160 iq so he's kind of was smarter than
00:44:41
everybody in a way um so he committed his first known crime in 1968 a motorist in los angeles
00:44:49
called the police after watching him lure an eight-year-old girl named tallie shapiro into
00:44:54
his hollywood apartment the girl was found alive raped and beaten with a steel bar but alcala had
00:45:01
already fled um so to evade the resulting arrest warrant he left the state and he enrolled in nyu
00:45:08
film school under the name John Berger, where he studied under Roman Polanski. Oh, that's convenient.
00:45:15
Oh, um, then he obtained in 1971, he got a counseling job, uh, at a New Hampshire arts
00:45:24
camp for children, um, using a different alias, John Berger. Um, but in June of 1971, Cornelia
00:45:35
crilly a 23 year old trans um twa flight attendant was found raped and strangled in her manhattan
00:45:42
apartment that cornelia's um murder would remain unsolved for 40 years holy shit so she was one of
00:45:50
the ones that when they found the pictures they started putting it up all together like this
00:45:54
person was missing or murdered we don't know yeah god so um so now alcala's on the uh in 1971 he
00:46:02
goes on the 10 most wanted fugitives list. And a few months later, two children who are at this
00:46:08
arts camp that he got the job at, they notice his photo on an FBI poster at the post office
00:46:14
and they finger him. Fuck yeah, they do. Some kids. So he's extradited to California.
00:46:20
But by then that eight year old girl that he had attacked, her parents had relocated the entire
00:46:27
family to Mexico and they weren't coming back. So they were unable to convict him of rape and attempted murder.
00:46:36
So the prosecutors were forced to permit him to plead to a lesser charge of assault.
00:46:44
So he's paroled after 34 months and assault. Yeah. He basically, it's the same thing.
00:46:55
If he demonstrated evidence of rehabilitation, he got out early. Be nice for 34 months and you can get out whenever the fuck you want.
00:47:03
So two months after his release, he's rearrested after assaulting a 13-year-old girl who he had offered a ride to school.
00:47:11
And she thought she was just getting a ride to school. And again, he's paroled after serving two years of an indeterminate sentence.
00:47:18
um so after that release from prison um a la parole officer takes the unusual step of permitting
00:47:27
this repeat offender and known flight risk to travel to new york city now irritating but if he
00:47:37
has 160 iq and he's this level psychopath he's probably incredibly charming and incredibly
00:47:44
manipulative totally so he's he's you know he it just sucks he makes it work yeah it's crazy well a lot of people just aren't aren't capable of handling this level this is like it's super villain yeah he's it's savvy as fuck and
00:48:00
even a person who's of normal intelligence don't understand the, like the nuances of manipulation probably.
00:48:08
Right. Have you seen the show good behavior with the girl who's the, who's Mary from Downton Abbey?
00:48:15
No, it's really good. Is it? I love when we do a TV show recommendations. Well, and also,
00:48:21
so in it, she's like a con woman and she does these things. Like she started off being a con woman because she was addicted to drugs,
00:48:28
but now she's doing it just to get money and like you watch it. It's really good. But she does these
00:48:33
things and it's, you see how easy it would be to fall for it because like she'll go in and she'll,
00:48:38
she has a really nice outfit on and she looks like she has a lot of money and she's like a
00:48:42
high-end resort. And then she's like shopping for jewelry. So she'll be like, Oh, can I see that
00:48:46
there? My husband wants, my husband said I could get one thing. And so I'm going to pick it. And so
00:48:50
while the guy, she's shopping and chatting and giggling and they're drinking champagne.
00:48:55
and then she's making the guy go get her things away from the counter and while he's gone she's
00:49:01
just loading her purse with the jewelry she's trying on but she's doing these switch around
00:49:05
so she's like never you know what I mean it's all very believable and then she walks out he's not
00:49:11
going to know anything is gone until way later and it's that's what it makes me think of did you
00:49:16
see the movie paper moon it's one of my favorite movies in the world with the um o'neill family
00:49:22
Tatum O'Neill and Ryan O'Neill. And they do that. And it's, they're, they're grifters. And it's
00:49:27
just one of my absolute favorite movies. And you would never fucking know what they're doing. It's
00:49:31
so good. Well, that's cause you have to be good to get away with it. And that's how you're good.
00:49:36
Casual. You have to be casual about it. And you have to be like friendly and kind of charming and
00:49:40
alluring. So people are like, no, it would never be her. The pretty, they're probably good looking.
00:49:45
Like I get nervous that people think I'm shoplifting, even when I have no intention
00:49:48
and I'm never going to shoplift. It's like, I'm still like, I'm not shoplifting.
00:49:51
So we have to be pretty fucking. You have to be like steely, but also like super charming.
00:49:57
So clearly that's this guy. So he convinces his parole officer to let him go to New York.
00:50:03
And while he's there, a week after he gets to Manhattan, he kills Ellen Jane Hover,
00:50:09
who is 23 and the daughter of the owner of Cero's, which is a Hollywood nightclub.
00:50:14
She was the goddaughter of Dean Martin and Sammy Davis Jr. She was like an heiress.
00:50:19
She had a lot of money and her remains were found buried on the grounds of the Rockefeller
00:50:26
estate in Westchester County. How did he even get in there? Well, I have no idea.
00:50:34
He probably went to like a club and she was there and he's, you see pictures of him.
00:50:39
He's super creepy now. You see pictures of him in jail and he has like really long, like salt and pepper, creepy,
00:50:46
curly hair. Like a ramen. dry ramen. But I, you know, back then it was like the late seventies and it was that kind of looking
00:50:54
for Mr. Goodbar era of like pickup clubs and everyone was like post hippie, you know, feeling
00:51:01
it era. I don't know. Um, but he also did the thing where he was a photographer, right? He was
00:51:09
playing like the artist side. Um, for a little while he worked at the LA times as a typesetter
00:51:14
and he was at one point interviewed by the members of the Hillside Strangler Task Force
00:51:22
as part of their investigation when they were interviewing known sex offenders. Oh my God.
00:51:27
He was ruled out as the Hillside Strangler, but he got arrested and served a brief sentence
00:51:32
for marijuana possession. So they got him for that. Thank God. But he also, during this time,
00:51:41
he convinced a bunch of young men and women that he was a professional fashion photographer
00:51:47
and photographed them for his portfolio. Um, and he showed that portfolio to his, uh, coworkers at
00:51:56
the LA times. And there were people who are quoted as saying they should, I thought it was weird,
00:52:01
but I didn't, you know, I didn't know because he said he was like a fashion photographer. And so I
00:52:09
just remember there was a bunch of naked girls oh my god and he would show it to people like this is
00:52:14
my this is my portfolio creepy it's so fucking creepy so he's he's totally flaunting it um and
00:52:22
of course everyone's just like oh i guess that's high fashion photography um so in 1979 he knocks
00:52:31
he knocks unconscious and rapes 15 year old Monique Hoyt as she's posing for him for one of
00:52:39
those shoots. And then he goes on the dating game, which was in also in, I believe 1979,
00:52:49
around that same time. And they think that because, or he was on the dating game in 1978.
00:52:55
So they think because of that rejection of the girl on the dating game being like, there's no fucking way I'm going out with that guy.
00:53:08
Because right after that, a 12-year-old girl from Huntington Beach named Robin Samso disappeared on her way between the beach and ballet class.
00:53:18
It was June 20th, 1979 when this happened. um 12 days later her deep composing body was found in the los angeles foothills um i know i did
00:53:29
i did something like that a guy saying i'm a photographer when i was like 17 no like 18
00:53:37
what and you did what i went and took photos with him in the fucking santa monica mountains
00:53:41
holy shit i've never told anyone this there's this guy should have killed me but he just took pictures of you and drove you home yeah he was a regular at this restaurant i
00:53:50
was working at and was like he came in all the time and he like I a photographer I love to take photos of you and I like okay and we went up to Santa Monica Hills and that was when I was like oh shit I alone with this guy In the fucking forest In the fucking hills overlooking the ocean And like there was he was so nice at the restaurant And the minute his
00:54:10
eye went to the camera lens, he looked fucking evil. I remember thinking, you need to fucking,
00:54:19
this is not okay. And so I kept asking about his mom and he kept telling about his mother.
00:54:24
and it was almost like I was, I kind of knew something was not right and I needed to talk
00:54:28
to him a lot. And, and then we just went home, but my, my heart was racing the whole time.
00:54:32
Jesus Christ. And I don't know what happened to him. And I kind of just, I think I quit soon after that.
00:54:38
It was just that I should have been dead. That's insane. I know. And I don't, I'm so embarrassed of that that I don't fucking tell people that,
00:54:44
but it reminds me so much of the story. Right. Well also, cause there's a, there's another guy, um, that's on like, I've seen
00:54:51
like three different, you know, uh, ID discovery things about the guy that he would approach
00:54:57
women in malls and say that he was a photographer, that he was a casting director. Um, he wanted to
00:55:03
take their picture because he was casting for the latest, was it Batman or some like the latest big
00:55:09
movie and they would go meet him and then they would disappear and they were meeting him at
00:55:16
houses that were for sale. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So he was going in and basically meeting
00:55:21
them in empty like, um, houses that he knew that the real estate agent like was showing,
00:55:27
he would go have it shown to him, have them meet them there and then attack them there.
00:55:32
And he had killed a couple of girls and then one girl got away and that's how he got caught.
00:55:37
So it's this exact same thing. And I mean, I, I, as I don't want to say, cause I feel so stupid, but I was like 18 and you're
00:55:43
like, I was new to LA and I was so flattered that someone wanted to take my photo and it was the
00:55:47
nineties and I didn't understand. And I thought I knew this person. I would, he was so stupid.
00:55:51
nice all the time. And so when I say fuck politeness, it's because I've done shit that
00:55:55
have probably been really like unsafe. And it's just, I want to cry thinking about it. I feel so
00:56:02
fucking stupid for having done that. Yeah. But that's the whole manipulation is that they're
00:56:07
playing on like, we're then we're supposed to be embarrassed that we had, you know, the pride. Oh,
00:56:13
who are we to think that we have our picture taken when actually that's, that's the play.
00:56:18
that's the whole thing is how they get you is like of course you're flattered and then you have a
00:56:22
little ego stroke and then oh my god maybe I am a model and it's all those things that then it's
00:56:27
the shame of that that's supposed to like keep you quiet yeah and fuck that shit it's like it's
00:56:33
that's that's they're doing that's what they're doing to you any human being that gets that kind
00:56:38
of special attention is going to go oh my god yeah I want that special attention that's what we all
00:56:43
want yeah that's everybody wants to be told that they're pretty and want you know have their picture
00:56:48
taken and that's it's the easiest way to manipulate people yeah and i just remember the moment it took
00:56:53
a turn and i got scared and realized something was not right thank fucking god nothing happened yeah
00:56:58
um sorry go on um anyway so robin samso's friends uh told the police that a stranger had approached
00:57:10
them at the beach asking to take their pictures and um they circulate a sketch of the photographer
00:57:17
Alcala's parole officer recognizes him in this sketch. And then they search his house in Monterey
00:57:25
Park and they find a rental receipt for a storage locker in Seattle. So then they go into that
00:57:31
storage locker and they find a pair of Robin Samso's earrings. So he's basically killing people
00:57:37
taking the, why don't I ever remember the word for it? Trophy? Yeah, the trophy, but then he's
00:57:44
keeping it like in a different state. Okay. Um, so he's arrested in 1979 held without bail.
00:57:52
He's tried convicted and sentenced to death for Robin Samso's murder, but the verdict is overturned because jurors had been improperly informed of
00:58:01
his prior sex crimes. No. Um, so then in 1986, seven years later, they retry him for the same.
00:58:09
It's the identical trial, um, except for omission of the prior record. And he's convicted again and sentenced to death again.
00:58:19
And the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals panel nullifies the second conviction. Why?
00:58:26
In part because a witness was not allowed, who was not allowed, no, sorry. A witness was not allowed to support Alcala's contention
00:58:34
that the park ranger who found Samso's body had been, quote, hypnotized by police investigators.
00:58:41
so there was somebody that wanted to alcala said um this park ranger was hypnotized by the police
00:58:48
that's why he's saying this happened he had a friend who was going to back him up and they were
00:58:52
like no your friend doesn't get to say that and then they find once they find that out they're
00:58:58
like the whole thing has to go so they keep getting it uh like on these weird um little details
00:59:05
all right and this goes i mean he's in prison the whole time though right he is yeah he's held without bail i'm not sure if you ask me details about this i'm not going to be able
00:59:20
to tell you i threw this together so quickly but this is the kind of thing you can look up his name
00:59:25
and watch 1 000 shows about him because he's he basically they say he's like because of these
00:59:33
pictures and the cold cases that they believe are associated with these pictures he's only he only
00:59:39
goes to jail for um for murders but they think he he's responsible for over a hundred holy they just
00:59:46
can't prove it over a hundred over a hundred worse he's he's one of the worst serial killers ever
00:59:51
and he still alive yeah and in jail um doesn he keep um appealing i keep seeing him in i keep seeing him getting older and older and like news photos with that crazy hair Um well he does he has all these and and it
01:00:07
crazy because he's again, one of those geniuses that's like at one point he represents himself
01:00:13
and, uh, and then cross examines himself and, and is talking in a deep voice as one person and then
01:00:21
his own voice and the other, like, it's that kind of total insanity, um, thing that you, you know,
01:00:28
it's what that's Ted Bundy. He represented himself. They all kind of think like it's,
01:00:32
they just think you're invincible and that they're the smartest people in the world.
01:00:36
Um, but essentially in 2003, Orange County investigators, um, they learned Alcala's DNA,
01:00:43
um, had matched semen left at the rape murder scenes of two women in Los Angeles. And that's
01:00:48
when they start linking cold case DNA to this guy. And it led to his indictment for the murders
01:00:55
of four additional women. Jill Barkholm, who was 18, a New York runaway who was found rolled up
01:01:00
like a ball in a Los Angeles ravine in 1977. They thought she was a victim of the Hillside
01:01:05
Stranglers. Georgia Wickstead, 27, who was bludgeoned in her Malibu apartment in 1977,
01:01:13
which is super weird because Malibu is so fucking Tony and high end. And this is that thing of like, like that, um, uh, the sister,
01:01:23
Ciro's heiress who he clearly was able to like be in and out of very Tony high end places. And with those kinds of people,
01:01:32
you don't break into a like high end Malibu location. No, you talk your way in. Like I feel weird at Starbucks in Malibu.
01:01:40
Like you just feel like you don't belong. Totally. And they know it. um charlotte lamb was 31 she was raped and strangled in the laundry room of her el segundo
01:01:49
apartment complex in 1978 and jill parento who was 21 who was killed in her burbank apartment
01:01:56
in 1979 and all of these bodies were found posed in carefully chosen positions which i think then
01:02:05
they eventually led to understanding that he was posing them and taking pictures of them oh my god
01:02:11
And they found another pair of earrings in the Seattle storage locker that matched Charlotte Lamb's DNA.
01:02:18
So they're kind of, it all starts hooking back over and over. So eventually the police find a collection of more than a thousand photographs.
01:02:29
And they're mostly of women and teenage boys in sexually explicit poses. in his third trial in 2003 prosecutors enter a motion uh to join the samso charges with those
01:02:41
of the four newly discovered victims and um so his attorneys of course try to contest it like you
01:02:49
basically saying you can you can give a benefit of the doubt or whatever whatever they call
01:02:55
reasonable doubt for one but you can't do it with four right um but uh they ruled in the
01:03:03
prosecution's favor and in february of 2010 he stood trial on five joined charges i can't believe
01:03:10
it's so recent i know isn't that weird it seems like it should have been so long ago this happened
01:03:14
because he was doing it for so fucking long but i think it was that thing of they had him on one
01:03:18
and he was in jail for one and then suddenly it was that dna era that came through and it was like
01:03:24
all of a sudden and that's what that was when all those um specials come out is like in those late
01:03:30
in the late nineties were like, they just found this guy. A lot of them have that feel to it of
01:03:35
like this guy. Pardon me. Um, he, when he was his own lawyer, he showed the jury a portion of his
01:03:45
1978 appearance on the dating game in an attempt to prove that the earrings that were found in that
01:03:51
Seattle locker were his own and not Samso's. And they end up bringing Jed Mills, bachelor number
01:03:58
to, to this trial so that he can say, I would have remembered if a guy was wearing earrings.
01:04:04
It was 1978. He was not wearing earrings. Yeah. It is that crazy. And then eventually
01:04:11
they get Talia, the eight year old girl that he had raped in the late sixties and she comes and
01:04:19
testifies, um, so that they can keep this guy in jail. Holy shit. Um, in March, 2010,
01:04:27
the Huntington Beach and New York City Police Departments released 120 of his photographs
01:04:31
seeking the public's help to identify the people in them in hope of determining if any of the women and children he photographed were additional victims. There are 900 additional
01:04:42
photos that could not be made public because they were too sexually explicit. So he was like a
01:04:47
fucking hideous, kiddie porn, you know, like pornographer, exploitive pig, obviously.
01:04:56
Wow. The police reported that approximately 21 women had come forward to identify themselves
01:05:03
and six families said that they believe they recognize loved ones who had disappeared years ago
01:05:10
and were never found. They saw their missing loved ones in these photos, but none of the photos were unequivocally connected
01:05:18
to a missing person case or an unsolved murder until 2013 when a family member recognized
01:05:25
the photo of Christine Thornton, who was 28, whose body was found in Wyoming in 1982.
01:05:31
I did not even hear about this. Yeah. And as of September 2016, last year, 110 of those original photos remain posted online
01:05:41
and the police continue to solicit the public's help with further identifications.
01:05:47
Let's all go to them right fucking now. In 2016, he was charged with this 1977 murder
01:05:53
of a woman who was identified through one of those photos And just in closing which I find fascinating and interesting his diagnoses when he was in court
01:06:07
the psychiatrist diagnosed him as having a narcissistic personality disorder and malignant narcissistic personality disorder
01:06:15
with psychopathy and sexual sadism comorbidities. Jesus. Comorbidities. That's the fucking trifecta.
01:06:23
you don't you don't want to end up with you don't want the word comorbidities anywhere near you no
01:06:29
uh do you want to know what what it means it's the presence of one or more additional diseases
01:06:34
or disorders co-occurring uh including morbid including it just sounds worse liking dead bodies
01:06:42
maybe um no i think morbid just is like gruesome or something we'll have to ask guy brand we will
01:06:49
have to ask. I'm sure everyone will tell us on Twitter. Uh, that was not the greatest version
01:06:54
of trying to tell the Rodney Alcala story. No, that was very, um, that was very detailed.
01:07:00
Did I do all right? You did a great timeline, really interesting. I had some personal, uh,
01:07:05
information to share as well. I liked that. You know what I mean? It actually gets worse than that
01:07:09
and I'll tell you afterwards, but no, I know. Um, yeah, it was a good story. Uh, well, I just
01:07:15
recommend anybody that's if you are slightly interested take a deep dive because he is uh
01:07:22
really horrifying and and kind of like another one of those lesser known but very uh depraved
01:07:30
and horrifying yeah monster people we this was an episode of monster people monster people for
01:07:36
sure from the depths of fucking hell yeah and plus the dating game plus the dating game plus
01:07:43
the Pacific Northwest has always got a mix in there somehow. You know, it just has to be in there.
01:07:48
It's depressing. Oy vey, we're back. Karen, updates? There are updates. So it was eventually confirmed that Rodney Alcala
01:08:02
killed at least seven women and young girls. He was sentenced to death in California.
01:08:06
He died of natural causes in July of 2021 while awaiting that execution. and then after his death, a woman named Morgan Rowan reached out to investigator Steve Hodel
01:08:17
to share details of her 1968 attack. She was 16 at the time and she had met Alcala on a few
01:08:25
different occasions. She was attacked and raped at his house and her friends broke into the room to
01:08:30
rescue her and then he fled. Oh my God. So she said she was ashamed to tell her parents. She
01:08:35
never reported the attack, thing that happens a lot to women. Six weeks after, she learns of
01:08:41
his attack, rape, and the survival of Tali Shapiro. And she, of course, struggles with guilt for
01:08:48
decades. Eventually, she connects with Tali and apologizes. And when she does, Tali tells her
01:08:55
there was nothing to forgive. It wasn't her fault. And these two survivors, they live a few hours
01:09:01
apart in California, but they remain chosen family to each other. I've seen that there's a documentary
01:09:06
about it and these strong, incredible women are in it. And it's just, I highly recommend it.
01:09:12
Yeah. Also during the story, I talked about my experience at 18 with that guy who drove me to
01:09:17
the Santa Monica Hills to take my picture. So I've discussed it in our book, Stay Sexy and Don't Get
01:09:23
Murdered in the Fuck Politeness chapter. I also talk about on episode 472, Give Me All My Words.
01:09:30
So there you go. I think that in doing that though, I think you were in a gray area where
01:09:36
you get to speak for people who, if you've had experiences that in your mind, you've always
01:09:41
filed it as less than bad, less than a friend's, less than a different story that you've heard,
01:09:48
that you're always mitigating your own trauma process, basically, by saying, don't worry about
01:09:54
it because it's not bad. And you gave yourself and then other people permission to go, it's as bad as
01:10:01
I say it was to me because it happened to me. And then also, yeah, for sure. And then also the
01:10:05
understanding that I have of so many moments in my life that I'm sure we all do of like,
01:10:10
by the skin of my teeth. Yes. Like what could have happened. And I think about that so much
01:10:15
and I'm embarrassed and ashamed. And so I don't talk about it because I think it's my fault. I'm
01:10:21
stupid for having done that. Yeah. But that's not, that's not how we talk about ourselves and
01:10:26
our experiences. No. And it's certainly not the way the women of today do it. They don't do that
01:10:32
to themselves. So us Gen Xers and late millennials and all the people that were raised on that
01:10:38
bullshit can really just put it aside, I think, from now on. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Let's listen to the end of episode 54.
01:10:50
How about a good thing? How about a good thing? How about it? I did my apartment, my new apartment last time.
01:10:55
It's beautiful. Thank you. I really like it. Why don't you do... Oh, no, no, I did the jacuzzi cat last time.
01:11:00
Jacuzzi cat and I saw your picture. On my Instagram. Jacuzzi cat is real. Hardstark is my Instagram.
01:11:06
And there's a fucking sweet picture of Jacuzzi cat who I've seen since. Gus the Jacuzzi cat is legit.
01:11:13
And he's so chill. Legit in the real deal. Yes. I guess I've already bragged now twice at you about my best thing.
01:11:22
But my best thing is just, it's so fun to work on a job right now. It's just fun to perform again on TV.
01:11:29
it's really fun to have fake eyelashes on all day long. I love fake eyelashes. Aren't they the best?
01:11:37
Oh my God, they make you feel like a queen. Yeah, it's pretty fun. And for me, like, it's just a period of,
01:11:43
I just didn't think I was gonna be performing anymore. And like 10 years ago, if you would ask me
01:11:48
if any of these things would be happening, I'd be like, you're insane. I'm stuck in an office building in Burbank
01:11:54
and I will never leave here. So I'm very, I feel grateful and like kind just excited and I don't know. No, I'm happy. I feel fingernails, fingernails, fingernails about it.
01:12:06
What's that mean? Oh, like kind of fancy and like, oh yeah, maybe I should have a manicure. Like
01:12:11
maybe I should try. You need to. I've been in like a bit, I've said this a million times,
01:12:15
but I've been in a, I've been in a cave for almost a decade. And look at you coming out of it. Look
01:12:21
at me out of the cave. I love it. And it's all because of nails probably. The thing I love is,
01:12:29
and I tried about it, um, is I've been posting political stuff on Instagram and Twitter.
01:12:34
And you know how scary it is to do that because you're immediately like refreshing to see people saying mean stuff to you.
01:12:39
But so many people have been saying really nice things. And the ACLU is a fucking entity that I'm so happy to donate to and to,
01:12:48
and that are fighting for us. And so I started crying when I saw all the like positive comments from people
01:12:55
on my political posts. I just want to read one thing because you wrote this tonight and I retweeted it.
01:13:02
Oh, I know. Thank you. Because it's beautifully written and it's exactly right with all this stuff that's happening in our country right now, which is incredibly scary.
01:13:10
And I have a lot of friends who like talk about all the time. We're like, I don't know what to do.
01:13:14
This is insane. This is insanity. This is so scary. And you tweeted this tonight.
01:13:19
You said, we have an amazing opportunity to atone for the atrocities past generations inflicted on those deemed different and undesirable.
01:13:28
And then you did the hashtag love Trump's hate. And it really feels like that's what's happening right now is those people that are fucking taken to the streets who when somebody puts down a Muslim ban in order to say that certain people can't come to this fucking country, people immediately show up in the streets going no fucking way.
01:13:48
That's, and to see it happening, I mean that I sat in the grocery store parking lot,
01:13:54
staring at my phone for an hour and crying and going, holy fucking shit. All these people at airports so empowering And like up until like a week ago I was not looking at articles I was feeling so beat down and maybe it because my my uh my uh Lexapro got
01:14:10
doubled. I don't know, but suddenly I'm feeling really like positive and empowered and not scared
01:14:16
of reading these articles and like excited to be part of it. We've been told for a year that the
01:14:21
majority wants this. And basically people are showing up in the streets to say the majority
01:14:27
does not want this. I am here to say, I don't want this. It's an amazing, beautiful thing. And you see
01:14:34
it now. The thing that people are tweeting tonight is showing all these people that are protesting at
01:14:39
these airports and they're protesting at airports in the middle of the country. People keep tweeting,
01:14:44
oh, look at these, um, look at these coastal elites in the middle of Kansas, in the middle of,
01:14:50
uh, you know, wherever they were. It was like the, it was like a joke. A couple of different
01:14:56
people made the coastal elites joke because it was an airport in Texas. It was an airport
01:15:01
in Wyoming. Well, you know, it's so great too, is that I feel like for years in every administration,
01:15:06
there's been so many things that should, that people are up in arms about and that everyone's
01:15:12
like, what do we do about this? And nobody's protested because it's, you don't know what to
01:15:16
do. It's not big enough. There's not enough people. There's not this army to protest with.
01:15:20
And suddenly it feels like we're not letting these things happen now. And it's, there's definitely
01:15:24
things that in the past should have been protested like this and haven't been 100 and now everyone
01:15:29
knows there is a way for every single person to get involved and it's kind of it's empowering to
01:15:34
when everyone's like i don't know what to do and it's like here are five things you can do
01:15:37
just go online and there's protests you can donate money you can donate time you can
01:15:43
you know tweet something make phone calls it's it's just there's a lot to do you can express
01:15:48
yourself but it is very i love the fact that it kind of kicked off with the women's march
01:15:52
and all of the women's marches being five times bigger than they thought any of them were going to be.
01:15:58
But then these airport protests watching, and it people I know that are out there watching people show up by the thousands to say you cannot do this to people is beautiful And that what we have to remember
01:16:15
That's what we have to remember. That's the majority. That is truly the majority.
01:16:19
And then maybe, again, maybe it's Alexa Pro, but I'm fucking over my fear and anxiety of protesting.
01:16:25
Like I'll be out there. Oh, being in a crowd. Yeah. It's hard to be in a crowd. I know, but it's necessary now.
01:16:31
Now I realize it's fucking necessary and I don't care if I get a little overwhelmed by it.
01:16:36
Well, it could be beautiful too. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, our good things could be translated into today.
01:16:47
Yes. With seamlessly, unfortunately. It's just like such a strange loop that we are in.
01:16:54
And it is so weird. Like the exact same topics. It's just like the proper nouns are being switched out for.
01:17:01
It's a different group of people being targeted. It's a different group of people.
01:17:05
It's so shitty. Look, we love progress, not perfection, but can we get a little bit of both, please?
01:17:11
Some progress. Some imperfect progress would be incredible. All right. Well, it's time to rename this episode.
01:17:18
This one was originally entitled Valet Area. But if we're naming it today, maybe we would call it Yip Yap.
01:17:26
That does not sound like anything you would ever say. Yeah. We're going to yip-yap and Georgia jokes that people who aren't into it will join in 20 minutes.
01:17:34
Great. Skippers. Skippers. We also do, of course, Corner, Corner, Corner. That's the one that it feels thematically feels like it's really there already.
01:17:42
Now we know it'd be a part of it. Yeah. And then also, Guy Brennan, please let me know.
01:17:46
And we're not going to say goodbye right now here in 2025 because in 2017, I think we did a pretty damn good job of it.
01:17:53
It's one of the best things we do on this episode. So thanks for listening to Rewind.
01:17:58
We appreciate you. Yeah, come back next week. I don't know. We're on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook.
01:18:10
I don't know. Thanks for listening. I mean, you don't have to do any of those things.
01:18:13
We just appreciate you listening. We really appreciate you listening and please stay sexy.
01:18:17
And don't get murdered. Bye. Bye. Elvis, you want a cookie? What? You want a cookie?
01:18:26
Mimi, it's your big chance. Do you want a cookie? Mimi, you want a cookie? What?
01:18:30
That was Elvis. All right. And Stephen, thank you for being awesome. I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl.
01:18:40
This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now.
01:18:44
Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all.
01:18:52
As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity.
01:19:00
You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:19:10
Before NXIVM, Nancy Solzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody, it's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.
01:19:18
She trained in something called neurolinguistic programming. People loved our training.
01:19:23
Then, everything changed. Yeah, and they called it a cult. How does a method designed to improve lives end up in a cult?
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01:20:05
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