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00:01:58
Hello. And welcome. To My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen Kilgariff.
00:02:08
And we have a very special show for you today because for the last five years, our guests have hosted the podcast, Trust Me, Cults, Extreme Belief and Manipulation, where they dig into the psychology of cults and how they operate.
00:02:21
Each week they speak with guests who've escaped cults like Heaven's Gate, the Manson family, QAnon, and of course, NXIVM.
00:02:28
Please welcome to the show the hosts of Exactly Right's newest podcast, Trust Me, Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth.
00:02:35
Hi! Yay! Welcome. Thank you. Welcome like here and here. Thank you. We're so excited to be here.
00:02:43
It's very exciting. It's very exciting to see you. Yeah. It's very exciting to see your outfits today.
00:02:49
Thank you so much. We worked really hard on them. Really nice. I showed up with the outfits.
00:02:54
I love it. Yeah. That's so funny. I probably shouldn't say this because then I'm going to get a bunch of DMs.
00:02:58
But you dropped into my DMs on Instagram. And I knew your podcast and loved it. And you're like, we're leaving this network.
00:03:05
What's up? And I'm like, hell yeah. Hell yeah. Immediately. I mean, it's such a good fit.
00:03:11
I don't know. It's such a good fit. I feel like we're so at home. Everyone here is so great.
00:03:15
Yeah. We're happy to have you guys here. And it's such a good podcast. Thank you.
00:03:18
You guys. Thank you. I mean, it's so impressive. There's a lot of them out there, but I think it really does.
00:03:23
It raises the bar for the genre, the way you guys talk about it and the empathy you can talk about it from.
00:03:29
I mean, we'll get into all of it, but congratulations. And we're so happy to have you.
00:03:33
Thank you. Yay. Oh, my gosh. Let's start off with the way you guys. Should we start with the way you guys start your podcast by discussing the cultiest thing you've got going on this week?
00:03:44
Yeah. I was so excited to think of one. okay Megan do you want to share my cultiest thing of the week is there is this new tiktok cult
00:03:53
that's going around it's called children of the waning star waning star yes thank you
00:03:59
you're in it you're in it i'm just obsessed with tiktok okay great so you've seen that people are
00:04:04
putting in the like star and the fingerprint emoji and then immediately rumors are starting
00:04:10
of like people are sacrificing their pets and all of these horrible things and at the end of the day
00:04:15
None of that is actually happening. But the TikTok algorithm in itself is a cult.
00:04:22
And all of the most extreme things that it can get its hand on, it's just its hands.
00:04:28
The algorithm has hands. Maybe multiple hands. And myriad hands. And sticky hands, too.
00:04:33
It just pushes it out. And the more extreme a belief, the more extreme a piece of news, whether it be real or fake, boom, it's out there.
00:04:42
The end. And now people think that this is a real cult. So, you know, we try to keep it topical.
00:04:49
And that's what's happening this week. That's interesting. It's so interesting because we talk about cults a lot.
00:04:53
But then there's a whole part of the Internet that's so obsessed with cults that they'll get fixated on deciding that something is a cult.
00:04:58
And then they kind of become their own cult because they're obsessed with taking down this cult.
00:05:02
And a lot of the time it's completely exaggerated or just like taken out of contact, you know, that kind of thing.
00:05:07
Yeah, it'll be like a small comment and then that'll be the news story. It's just like the problem is the solution, not the problem.
00:05:14
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And this particular case, although we do see a lot of real online cults popping up left and right, which is a lot.
00:05:22
There's so many. And it's so wild to start to understand that people live so much online these days that someone like me who the Internet started when I was in my mid 20s.
00:05:33
So just like take it or leave it. But there's people who live on it constantly. So that idea of somehow suddenly following someone, being with them every day, like that getting kind of inundated by that is very common these days.
00:05:48
Yeah. We're like at the peak loneliness in America, like ever in history. So of course we going to look online for community and for some source of identity And there are so many hucksters out there ready and willing to sell you on something to provide that answer to you Absolutely Like podcasts For example yeah The time is now
00:06:08
Lola, what's your cultiest thing? I'm kind of stealing it from Megan, actually. Okay. So I'm always fascinated by the way that cults and authoritarian regimes
00:06:17
love to limit evidence-based information. They like to attack science and make you basically
00:06:24
stop believing in reality so that they can fit their own truth in there. We know that that's happening in the current Trump administration with 402 attacks on science.
00:06:34
And there are a number of reasons for that. But actually connecting to that is a poem that somebody from Megan's cult that she grew
00:06:41
up in, which we will talk about, wrote, who has been accused of a lot of I don't I'm not
00:06:47
sure if he wrote it. He shared it. He shared it. Yes. But he's just been accused of acting inappropriately with minors.
00:06:54
And the two by twos, which is my call, love a good poem. And by good poem, I mean bad poem.
00:07:01
Creepy-ass poem. So go ahead, Lola. Okay, I'm only going to read the first half because this will take too long.
00:07:05
But, okay. If you know of a thing that will darken the joy of a man, a woman, a girl, or a boy,
00:07:12
that will wipe out a smile or the least way annoy or be the thing their hope to destroy,
00:07:17
the best thing to do is forget it. All caps. Oh. If you know of a thing that will sadden the heart or hinder any from doing their part or cause an old wound to sting or to smart, don't be the one to give it a start.
00:07:29
Be the one who can forget it. All caps. All caps. It goes on. This whole time I haven't needed to be on pharmaceuticals for my depression.
00:07:38
It's so easy. You just forget your problem. Why is this the first time hearing about this?
00:07:43
Damn it. Doy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To me, it's just like it's so fascinating because, of course, somebody who's been accused of something is like, well, don't think those negative thoughts.
00:07:51
Just forget it. Don't worry about the things that maybe make you uncomfortable or are very alarming or a crime.
00:07:57
Just forget it. Just because something rhymes doesn't mean it's right. And that is the rhyme as reason effect.
00:08:03
That really is. Yeah. Shut up. Tell me more. Oh, that's a cognitive bias. Foxy Noxy.
00:08:09
Amanda Knox. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talked about that on our show at one point. Oh, my God.
00:08:14
The easier information is to process, the more likely we are to believe it's true.
00:08:18
So rhyming can actually make things feel more true. It's like the headline. If that's salacious, it doesn't matter what's in the article.
00:08:24
It's just like the thing that you see first is like the rhyme. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit.
00:08:28
Oh, I love that. We're full of things like that. It's so good. Actual information.
00:08:35
Right, right, yeah. What's that like? What's your cult thing? Okay, my cult, and you could also call it alcoholism probably, is rosé.
00:08:43
Like, it's weird how obsessed I've become with it as, like, what it means to my day.
00:08:51
I'm not trying to drink it all the time, but when I do, I feel like I'm having a better day.
00:08:55
Yeah. And it's become – I don't even want any other alcohol. If there's no alcohol in the house, I won't drink it.
00:08:59
But if there's rosé, does that sound like I drink too much? Well, how much do you drink once you finally make the decision?
00:09:06
Yeah, not – like a can. Okay. And that's the other thing, too, like a can of wine.
00:09:09
But listen, I use Diet Coke as my cultiest thing. one week. And I already shared with y'all, you guys have a plethora of Diet Coke in the
00:09:18
refrigerator here at this beautiful studio. Because we all belong to the cult of Diet Coke.
00:09:23
And yeah, I think that brands or things can become culty and they give us comfort.
00:09:30
They give us... Oh, we get this loyalty. Yeah. Someone offers me a Diet Pepsi. I'm like, excuse me.
00:09:36
Yeah, exactly. It just says something about the user or the person who, you know, it says something about
00:09:40
me that I'm not, if I'm drinking a beer, that's one thing. If I'm drinking a rosé, to me, it's a
00:09:45
totally different thing. As someone who has never had alcohol in her life due to my Mormon upbringing,
00:09:51
I cannot relate to this, but I like how it sounds. It looks good. And as someone who's no longer
00:09:58
allowed to have alcohol because I've had too much of it, I also like how it sounds.
00:10:04
It's all very, very familiar. Well, I mean, because I was kind of, I couldn't decide because
00:10:09
I think there's a lot of things I do in my life that are very culty or like I love to fall into a little rhythm and habit.
00:10:16
That's like something I really can do and rely on. So then it's like, great, it'll be mindless.
00:10:20
I'll just every morning I'll have a vanilla latte or every blah, I'll do this and it'll get me through.
00:10:26
But lately and going back to TikTok, shopping for clothes on TikTok where there's no way the size is going to be right.
00:10:35
There's no way the material is going to be what I want it to be or what the picture looks like.
00:10:39
It's truly rolling the dice Las Vegas style and knowing you're going to lose and doing it anyway.
00:10:46
I ordered a shirt that I tried on this morning that I couldn't stop laughing because it felt like it was made of wax.
00:10:52
It was the weirdest texture. It was where I was like, well, it was only nine dollars.
00:10:57
So what was I thinking that I was just going to get a gorgeous blouse for my next dinner party?
00:11:02
And I keep going back. I won't be convinced that it's going to not work the next time.
00:11:06
Okay, but that's because sometimes it does work. And that's intermittent reinforcement, which is how cold works.
00:11:14
When you get a $9 shirt that is actually 100% cotton and you're like, wait, you can't find these for $80 in America.
00:11:21
There is a treasure hunt aspect to it. You get addicted to like, is this going to be the good one?
00:11:26
Yes. Usually not. Right. Almost never. And that dopamine hit too. Like I have the shopping dopamine hit of like fine, like with vintage shopping, like finding a treasure.
00:11:35
Yeah. But there's been so much trash and I, you know, and that doesn't matter. I'll still.
00:11:41
Yeah. Never. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to adjust. I'm obsessed. Well, amazing. I mean, like if you liked what we just did right there, guys, you're going to love Lola and Megan's show.
00:11:54
Will Ferrell Big Money Players and iHeart Podcast presents Soccer Moms So I Leanne Yeah This is my best friend Janet Hey And we have been joined at the hip since high school Absolutely A redacted amount of years later we still joined at the hip
00:12:08
Just a little bit bigger hips. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey.
00:12:14
With all the snacks and drinks. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO.
00:12:20
Well, then you got them. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:12:27
Before NXIVM, Nancy Solzman wanted to help people. Being able to help somebody, it's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.
00:12:35
She trained in something called neurolinguistic programming. People loved our training.
00:12:40
Then, everything changed. Yeah, and they called it a cult. How does a method designed to improve lives end up in a cult?
00:12:47
A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.
00:12:54
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:13:17
are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. What? Okay, I don't think that's true.
00:13:23
I'm telling you. I was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl. Now on the
00:13:29
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's talk
00:13:35
about everyone's favorite thing, red flags. Yes. What are some red flags you can tell us about
00:13:41
like the thing, intermittent reinforcement. And then the rhyming thing was called
00:13:46
The rhyme as reason effect. Thank you. So red flags, right? Yes, yes. Love bombing.
00:13:52
Yeah. Huge. That'll probably be the first thing you'll notice. How does that look when it's not in a relationship?
00:13:57
Because I know love bombing when it's, you know, in a relationship, but like personal romantic.
00:14:03
Well, it'll just look like, oh my gosh, you're exactly a right fit for this. Lots of personal attention.
00:14:09
Lots of everything you've been wanting and needing. Who doesn't love personal attention?
00:14:14
It can come from a group. It can come from a person. And it's very addicting. Yeah.
00:14:18
I mean, the term, I believe, comes from cults originally. It was a tactic used to recruit people where, like, the girls would go out and be like, oh, my gosh.
00:14:27
Flare bee fishing. Yeah. Yes. So, yeah, I agree with that one. I think also when, like, OK, so I did the, can we talk about Scientology?
00:14:37
Yeah. We have to talk about Scientology. OK. I did the, like, Scientology stress test one time.
00:14:43
And what the result, first of all, the IQ test was nonsense. It was completely like it didn't make sense.
00:14:50
It wasn't based on IQ. No. But at the end of it, they basically like told me how in danger I am and how they could provide the solution.
00:14:59
They were like, you are so anxious. And I was like, yes, true. However, I'm not going to pay all of the money you are telling me to pay to go to your courses.
00:15:08
There's like a breaking down of like, oh, no, there's something wrong with you. and then providing the solution.
00:15:14
And that's, I think, why these online cults are really powerful, too, because they offer easy solutions.
00:15:20
So a lot of them start off with diets. This is our little, like, shake regimen that I made up, and you're going to love it.
00:15:28
And you're like, I want to lose some weight, let's say. Okay, I'm on my shake regimen, and I'm losing my weight.
00:15:34
Yay. Suddenly, weirder and weirder things start to be introduced, but you've already been primed that it's a working, normal thing to do.
00:15:42
And now you're in a group of other people who are doing it who are also like, no, it seems normal.
00:15:48
I've never thought of that being like a gateway to something that has nothing to do with nutrition and diet and stuff.
00:15:55
Yeah. And we wonder sometimes if it's conscious that they went that way. Because like once you're hungry, you're more susceptible to low blood sugar going.
00:16:07
And then when people do accept you, you're more excited, right? It's like the lows and the highs are lower and higher.
00:16:13
Exactly. But food is just a really easy way to grab people because it's a need that we all, you know, like it's an easy one.
00:16:20
So we can see that a lot playing out. Yeah. And whenever there is a strong inclination to make you feel afraid of like a different group, that's like a huge one.
00:16:31
Because that fear is something that can then be capitalized on to, again, offer you a solution to all of that fear you're feeling.
00:16:38
Right. And to like to prove you right because other people around you feel the same way.
00:16:42
So, yeah. Yeah. And to just simplify that. And even further, it's like even if you're in a narcissistic or abusive, which we know it like it's narcissistic, it's thrown around a lot.
00:16:53
But if you're in a narcissistic or abusive relationship, very soon after the love bombing phase, it's going to be like.
00:17:01
Your friends are awful. Isolating you. Isolating you. Yeah. So you can kind of see it play out on a stage that might be more normal or grounded for people because who hasn't gotten involved with somebody like that?
00:17:14
Yeah. And my friends are crazy. So if someone else points out like that fact, it's true.
00:17:19
Yeah, exactly. That's what I love about them. Yeah, exactly. It's so interesting.
00:17:24
It sounds so similar to a romantic relationship with the love bombing and the abusive controlling stuff.
00:17:30
are certain people more susceptible to that, do you think, than others? I'm such a cynic.
00:17:36
I can't imagine. But that's part of it, right? Like, that's what could be used against me.
00:17:41
I mean, exactly. What could be used against you is a cult of cynical people. Right.
00:17:45
Who are like, I would never join a cult. Right. The goths. Let's talk about it together for hours on end.
00:17:51
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's something we talk about a lot. But what we find over and over and over again is there are all kinds of people that join Women seem to be more open to talking about it but men also join And it really more about where they are in their life that makes them maybe a little bit more vulnerable to manipulation in that moment
00:18:09
But it's not necessarily a personality trait that recurs. Yeah. If you're going through a breakup, if you're going through financial hardship, if you've lost somebody, just be really careful because people prey upon you.
00:18:21
Yeah. Because you're looking for an answer. You're not grounded like you usually would be.
00:18:26
Or you're just young and open-minded because people get targeted just because they're young a lot.
00:18:30
Totally. That's right. So this show has been going on for five years. It's so crazy to hear you say it.
00:18:36
I cannot believe it's been five years. What the hell? And you guys kicked it off by talking, Lola, about your background.
00:18:43
And so do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So I was raised just a regular Mormon, just a mainstream Mormon, which is not the polygamous kind for those who get confused about that.
00:18:53
And after my parents got divorced, my mom was a single lady who had been excommunicated from the church and had gone through this whole process of rebuilding her, repenting, basically.
00:19:05
And a man targeted her at a Mormon singles dance and spent several months basically convincing her.
00:19:14
She didn't believe him at first, of course, but spent several months preying upon her Mormon beliefs to convince her that he was the new prophet of God.
00:19:23
Wow. And the context for this, which I think is really important, is that one, the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, was a guy in the 1800s who just was like, I had a vision. I got the new church. I'm going to do it.
00:19:37
And so the whole like foundation of the religion is basically like a guy being like I had a vision.
00:19:43
So it leaves room for other guys to come along. And also there's a part of the belief system where there's like part of the scripture was hidden away until the end times.
00:19:53
So there have been numerous men at this point who have been like, I found the hidden scripture called the sealed portion.
00:20:01
And to make matters significantly worse, maybe the most important detail here is that my mom had had a dream prior to meeting this man about a man that she would meet.
00:20:14
And it felt really significant. And he had this very specific look. She said he looked like Brendan Fraser.
00:20:21
And she meets this guy at the dance and he looks just like the guy from her dream.
00:20:25
And she's been in this Mormon culture where dreams are really important. And signs from God are really important.
00:20:31
So he was able to pray upon that. He recognized that. And over time, he did indoctrinate her.
00:20:38
And we were eventually separated at his command. And she had a very harrowing experience on her own, which we don't necessarily need to get into today.
00:20:47
But we did get out. And we are much better now. And we talk about it very openly.
00:20:50
And now my mom is an advocate for people who are in cults and leaving cults. Wow.
00:20:55
That's amazing. Wow. Wow. That's really something as kind of like you, through the eyes of a child, kind of like had that experience, which I think I wonder the difference there because an adult going in with the ego of I would never be convinced or you can't, I'm not going to do something I wouldn't believe, as opposed to kind of the open mind of a child of like, I'm seeing all of this.
00:21:18
And what, like, do you think that you had an insight that maybe your mother didn't have because you were young and less experienced?
00:21:27
No, but but I I will say I had witnessed my mom. My mom is like just sees the best in everyone.
00:21:36
And there are like certain just like antisocial personality types are really drawn to people like her.
00:21:43
So I had seen a couple of people already kind of target her in the past. I was I was very I was skeptical of him at first, but I think it was just because of that experience.
00:21:53
And then the minute I like found their letter, their emails to each other about how he was a prophet, I was like, oh, sick.
00:21:58
He's a prophet. This is so cool. The prophet. The prophet. Yeah. And then I was chosen by God, too, to like help bring about the end of days, you know.
00:22:08
So that was cool. Yes. And that's on our first episode that we ever did. Yeah. We go fully into that.
00:22:13
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was the process of like extracting yourself and your own and becoming your own person outside of that?
00:22:20
You know, big question. Tell us step by step. Well, she actually so she was. What is the best way to phrase this?
00:22:35
So there had been men that had come to where she was staying, where she'd been told to stay.
00:22:41
And there was a man who had come there basically because the prophet was like, hey, you can go.
00:22:45
There's this woman you can go take advantage of. he saw what she was living through and broke down crying and got her out oh my god um which is not
00:22:54
usually how things go um but he just felt so bad he's actually still in our lives but after that i
00:23:00
mean honestly it was a years-long process i mean we didn't really talk about it for years like it
00:23:04
was just kind of something we pretended didn't happen and then my mom started talking about it
00:23:09
openly and then she got her phd in media psychology and now we like you know we've processed the fuck
00:23:14
out of here. That's amazing. But it took a long time. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And Megan,
00:23:20
do you want to talk about your experience? Yeah, sure. I wish it had been processed. It is not.
00:23:27
But I'm fourth generation on both sides of my family, two by two. So some people call it,
00:23:35
it doesn't technically have a name, which is baked into the cultiness of it. Some people call it the
00:23:41
truth the way the two by twos basically if you were super into archie comic books when you were
00:23:47
younger you might have been a part of it that's like one of the big tells is that we were all
00:23:52
given a bunch of archie really yeah i don't know why but sometimes people are like that's
00:23:56
not the one i was in and then i'm like is it the archie one and they're like yeah
00:24:00
That's the tell. Did they change the contents to make it like Archie's supporting?
00:24:05
No. Oh, okay. What is it about Archie? We weren't allowed to have television. We weren't allowed to watch movies.
00:24:11
We weren't supposed to do anything entertaining. So for some reason, people were like, let them read Archie's.
00:24:18
Wow. At least they can do that. And we did. It's like a ghost from 1952 came in.
00:24:25
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's such an interesting fact, like a little tidbit. But if you ever see someone with an Archie tattoo, you're like, what's up?
00:24:32
I'm like, what's up? I know. What was like the basic tenet of that? That's a great question.
00:24:37
So since they haven't written anything down, really nobody knows. Essentially, this man named William Irvine had what I would call a manic episode in like 1897 where he got really depressed on New Year's Eve and was like, I found a verse.
00:24:53
I think it's in Matthew that was like, I'll send them out two by two and they'll have no home.
00:24:57
And they'll go out and la, la, la, la, la. And he was like that. And so he was very – he was like the Scotsman, very charismatic.
00:25:04
And he started this homeless ministry. We go out two by two and we have no possessions.
00:25:11
And people loved it. And Ireland, you know – well, actually, I'll back up a second.
00:25:18
People hated it. But some people loved it. The people who loved it loved it. Yeah, the people who loved it loved it.
00:25:24
The people who he was telling they were going to hell and like this church is evil, that church is evil, any church that's not our church is evil.
00:25:30
They were like, shut up. And there's so many newspaper clippings that now I've seen at the time where people are like, William's on it again.
00:25:37
Like he's often preaching. But he ends up losing his mind completely and he's excommunicated.
00:25:44
And he ends up dying in Israel in like 1914 and is just kind of maybe later, maybe 1920 or something.
00:25:50
But he's written out of the history of it. They're embarrassed of him going off the deep end.
00:25:55
They don't want to talk about it. They have a pretty big following at this point.
00:26:00
And they're like, let's just write him out. It came from Jesus. So there's no founder.
00:26:05
We're going back. We're going way back. And so they just decided to erase him. So when I'm growing up, fourth generation, when did your church start?
00:26:13
I don't know about William. I've never heard about William. I go, it started from Jesus.
00:26:18
And that's what we all thought. And so the basic tenets are that strange people lived in our homes because they don't have a house, that we went to a lot of church.
00:26:30
It's pretty much like being Amish but also living in the normal world. There's a verse in the Bible that says you should be in the world, not of the world.
00:26:41
So Amish people are wrong because they've taken themselves out of the world. So who cares if you're righteous and like sweet out where no one can see you?
00:26:49
You need to be among the sinners, but you need to be so weird that people go, there's something different about you.
00:26:57
I have that. We have that. We're doing that. You really did that. And they go, what is it?
00:27:02
And then you go, it's Jesus. It's Jesus. That's my big secret. Yeah, that's my big secret.
00:27:07
And the amount of secrecy and level. I mean, we really lived a lot like Amish people while going to normal schools, having normal jobs.
00:27:18
but I didn't know like people would be like did you see Saturday Night Live and I was like what
00:27:22
the heck is that yeah yeah no clue and you had to wear long dresses oh yeah I got to wear really
00:27:28
long jean skirts um buns and you know I you couldn't cut your hair no yeah this bob is an
00:27:35
act of rebellion yeah yeah we all have bobs You said rebel. I said cult. A rebel cult.
00:27:48
Exactly. Now we're susceptible. And yeah, we had to wear it in buns. I luckily did rebel.
00:27:54
My friends would bring me clothes to school when I got a little bit older, you know, like
00:27:57
so I could wear some jeans. But yeah, you were you really weren't supposed to. And my mom didn't.
00:28:04
Yeah. So when did you get out? And like, when did you? Oh, well, the day my parents dropped me off at college, I was like, bye.
00:28:10
Thank you. But, you know, I was supposed to go every Sunday and Wednesday and Sunday afternoon.
00:28:16
I was too busy studying for that. Yeah. Oh, sure. Did you get incredible grades?
00:28:21
I was getting incredible grades. And so, you know, I never really went back. Oh, another little tenet of this is that the children in the church profess and then you start speaking in the meetings.
00:28:37
So you don't go to a church building where somebody speaks at you. You meet in homes and everybody who's professed shares.
00:28:44
So I would have to like pick a verse every week. And like I'm supposed to be teaching people about the Bible, my least favorite book of
00:28:52
all time. All I like is the Babysitter's Club and like doing everything the opposite of it.
00:28:57
So I just stopped going. I stopped speaking when I went. But the fear was so, so heavy because this is a religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas.
00:29:07
It doesn't celebrate Easter. It's like those are making light of Jesus. He's not like a little chicklet, furry, Easter bunny kind of dude.
00:29:16
He's like he's bringing the wrath of God and we're all going to hell. Even the people in it, most of them believe that they're going to hell.
00:29:25
So I was very scared. And it really wasn't until this podcast that I even had some hope of like unwinding it.
00:29:33
Because even though my big brain was like, this is ridiculous. My other brain was like, no.
00:29:42
Yes. Yeah. That's the way. I mean, at the beginning when you were describing that, I'm like, this is the Catholic Church, essentially, without the skirts.
00:29:49
But I do think maybe it's not even the Catholic Church. It just that mindset which is they bad and we good and trying to like live through so basically anything we do is justified because they bad Yes And having those thoughts as a kid is a very weird feeling because you like I never
00:30:08
questioned it, but I would have that like, I think I've told Georgia this a bunch of
00:30:12
times driving to church, I would see little kids playing in the front yard at their house
00:30:16
and be like, oh, that's too bad. They're going to burn in hell. And like truly just kind of very lightly feel that pity for people.
00:30:23
Whereas like, of course, when I got into college, same thing where I met a bunch of people outside of my town and faith and everything where I was just like, all these people are not burning in hell.
00:30:33
They just this is illogical. And that kind of thing of like, it's just weird when it's inside you like that.
00:30:40
It's just like built in. Built in completely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Mormonism, too.
00:30:44
We are the chosen ones. We didn't necessarily believe in hell in the traditional sense, but a lower tier of heaven.
00:30:51
Everyone else is going to a lower tier of heaven. Really? I'm so jealous of that.
00:30:55
Condos versus mansions in heaven. Or bottle service and VIP versus just like the regular club.
00:31:01
It's supposed to be just like earth. Like if you're a bad person, heaven is just like the normal world.
00:31:07
But if you do the right way, that's a good ass heaven. Wow. But like just teaching kids in general that they can like – like being burnt is so painful.
00:31:17
And teaching somebody that they can be like that for eternity, that's so mean. That's so mean.
00:31:22
Like, really stop it. If that's what you have to do to get children to believe in, or adults even, to believe in what you're preaching, that just seems a little bit like, well, I don't know if you can back that up then.
00:31:32
You can't back that up. Well, you don't have to back it up because it's a matter of faith.
00:31:36
Faith. No questioning. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So basically, do you both know, well, you just described it, the moments you had your doubt.
00:31:45
It was essentially like you're saying being out in the real world. When I was really little, I was like, no.
00:31:51
She was a questioner. Yeah, I was like, I don't like it. But my problem was I was like super dyslexic.
00:32:00
I had ADD. And I was from a family with very educated adults who had quote unquote high power jobs.
00:32:07
And so I was like, they're smarter than me. So I must be missing something. So that was kind of my experience.
00:32:14
Oh, I've never heard you say that before. Yeah, cognitive dissonance. I was like.
00:32:18
Doubting yourself. If I can't read and this person's a surgeon, then they're probably right.
00:32:25
So is your family still involved? Totally. Four generations. That just is a hard thing to break.
00:32:31
They are. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And are you accepted? I just got back from family vacation with them.
00:32:38
I couldn't love them more. You know, a lot of people are pretty over it. There was just a very big exposure in the two by two system where if you have people staying in people's homes, that's like a vision board for pedophiles to get involved in the group.
00:32:56
And they've been covering it up. Another Catholic church similarity. Yes, except that they're sleeping in your house for a week, you know, so you don't get that break.
00:33:05
So a lot of people are just writing their two by two family members off. We're over it.
00:33:09
I'm kind of going a different route. It's for each to decide. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's a very personal thing. Wow. That's incredible.
00:33:18
Yeah, it's it's it's a wild time. It's really it's really crazy. Well, but I think it's like that's what George and I were so excited when we knew that your podcast was looking for a home because being able to come from a point of view when you are talking to people who just got out like that level of empathy from the framework from which you are speaking is very rare.
00:33:39
I mean, like, if at all. So I think it's such an advantage that you guys have because you have the experience and you have the empathy and you have the interest, but you also aren't. It's not like we are right now. We're like, wait, how did it happen and why would it happen or whatever? You guys absolutely know the how and why usually. So you're right there with people when they're telling their story.
00:34:01
Thank you. Yeah, that's the goal. Like before I found Megan, when I first had the idea for this podcast, I just was listening to cult podcasts and felt they all felt so gawky. Yeah. Like, look how crazy this was. You know, I would never. I feel like that's kind of me a little. I feel guilty. Like I wasn't raised in any religion that was very like was mandatory in any way. So it's so hard for me to understand that. And therefore, I feel like I lack a little bit of the empathy that you guys.
00:34:26
A lot of people do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of my original things that originally made me think of it was I was watching a video about Jonestown and reading some of the comments and all the comments were like, these idiots, you know, and I was like, no, no, no.
00:34:39
Especially because, you know, my mom being so much in the doing so much advocacy in the cult world.
00:34:44
I've met so many people who have advanced degrees, who are like wildly intelligent, you know, very successful, talented.
00:34:52
Like, it's just everybody is susceptible. and that was one of the yeah that's the perspective we want to come from
00:34:58
is that like these are just human people we're having conversations everybody's smart
00:35:01
like there's this isn't there's nothing wrong with you if this happened to you yeah that's so important
00:35:05
so speaking of in your premiere episode for exactly right here you guys interviewed Echina Cox
00:35:12
who was raised in the unification church which some people call the Moonies which we've discussed many times on the podcast
00:35:18
was there anything in that conversation that stood out to you or that was surprising to you
00:35:22
You guys have 500 episodes. Do you still get surprised ever? Well, we hadn't interviewed someone who had actually participated in a mass wedding before, right?
00:35:33
Because I don't think Steve did. No, he didn't get married that way. It's not that it was surprising to learn that it happened.
00:35:39
It's just like so interesting to get the firsthand perspective of somebody who had been through that and her parents as well.
00:35:45
Wow. Yeah, because in San Francisco Bay Area, we used to, that would be on like the seven o'clock news all the time.
00:35:51
because the unification church really kind of posted up in San Francisco There were so many people kind of left over from the you know 1969 kind of drug addled thing And so they were picking people in the I say mid to late
00:36:06
seventies, it happened constantly. And I think it was part of the local news's way of saying,
00:36:12
look out, or this is a group that you should be aware of or something. But they would show
00:36:16
the footage of 10,000 people getting married at one time. And I remember just like sitting
00:36:21
there and turning to my mom like wait what is this and she's just like the moonies like you know
00:36:26
we all we know about them or whatever but it was that kind of like it's weird to me how much they
00:36:32
put it in front of us at the time seemed to me to message that kind of like look out these people
00:36:39
are around i really needed somebody to do that for the two by twos hopefully i'm doing that yeah
00:36:46
Even if they did, for generations, what could you have done? And you did it. Yeah.
00:36:53
But to your point, exactly. We need people to say, hey, look at what they're doing.
00:36:58
It's weird. Otherwise, you're like, is that normal? I don't know. But when you're in it, it feels so normal.
00:37:05
I know. I know. And the physical abuse, she really shocked me with what they suffered.
00:37:12
In the Unification Church. Yeah. Like from childhood, she was in there. And it was, yeah, it's like a part.
00:37:17
It's like a ritual. It's part of the practice. I guess you guys have probably talked about it before.
00:37:21
Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So she she really shook us up a bit. Also, she's so cool.
00:37:27
Yeah. She's so funny. Yeah. I floated us being friends in real life on the interview.
00:37:32
And she was like, maybe. She's like, I'll put you on the list. Let me know. Let me know when I'm in your group.
00:37:40
Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. I think one of the things about, you know, publicizing the mass weddings and like while it's important to draw attention to stuff like that, it also can create a huge stigma around people who are still in the group.
00:37:55
Like an us versus them. Yes. Like they're weirdos. They're evil. They're bad. And we see that a lot where the people who are actually victims of the group are treated as though they are perpetrators.
00:38:06
Like they're coming out with shame. Yeah. And just, you know, having family members who are still in or knowing people who are still in the two by twos who are wonderful people.
00:38:16
It makes me feel really protective of them. And I absolutely, like we said earlier, understand being like, well, they just need to do their research.
00:38:25
But you're just taught, like, don't look into this kind of stuff. Don't question. If it's generations deep, it's deep.
00:38:33
That's some serious indoctrination. It's really deep. So, yeah, I just try to hold space for people who are in it.
00:38:41
That's generous. And I just want to shout out something that's been going on with my mom because we talk about this idea a lot of staying connected to people who are still in the group instead of shunning them.
00:38:48
Right. Because there will be some media on this part of my mom's journey. But after her experience, she ended up moving to the FLDS town of Colorado City, which is where all the polygamists live, for those who don't know.
00:39:04
and just was nice to people and was like an outsider who had was like one of the first
00:39:09
outsiders to just be nice to them. And through these relationships that she created, she ended
00:39:13
up actually getting to know the new self-proclaimed prophet after Warren Jeffs went to prison
00:39:19
and ended up going undercover for the FBI. I didn't expect that. I didn't expect that to her.
00:39:27
Because now she had earned their trust and she had earned the trust of some of the victims of
00:39:32
him who finally came out to her and she was able to get them to tell their stories to the FBI.
00:39:36
So it can be also just really powerful for actually helping people. That wouldn't have happened.
00:39:42
If she was just like, judgey, judge, you're wrong. Let me help you out of this. It would not have happened.
00:39:46
Yes. People who are in a group like that and are isolated from any outsiders, like, do need
00:39:52
some connection, some safe connection outside of the group in order for anything to ever
00:39:57
break. Right. I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, who else is being investigated by the
00:40:02
FBI? Tell us. The two by twos. Did the FBI come to my house? They did. Shut up. Yeah. So that's
00:40:10
good. Yeah. It is. You know, it's bringing attention and putting the authority figures
00:40:17
who are actually the ones moving these perps around, secretly harboring money that, you know,
00:40:22
the spotlight on to them. So good. It could actually change something. Gosh, I hope so.
00:40:28
Yeah. And you're right. I mean, I think that piece of it of like and we talk about that a lot in this day and age and this political climate or whatever, where it's like when people feel so identified with a group that's so far over into one area, if they don't think they have anywhere to come back to, then there's no point in ever even trying to.
00:40:47
Right. Because it's hard enough. I'm, you know, I assume it's hard enough to leave, much less to leave and believe that everyone's judging you once you get out the door.
00:40:57
Yes, there's got to be some support system or something. Bridging that gap and just, you know, if it's not for you, that's fine.
00:41:05
But we talked to, what was his name, Frank, who was going to dinner parties. You mean the white supremacist?
00:41:10
Yeah, who was that? So Frank was the one whose boss was Jewish. He was the neo-Nazi.
00:41:15
But then our Derek Black, now known as Adrienne Black, she was the one who was David Duke's poster child.
00:41:22
Shut up. Who has denounced white supremacy and racism and is now, you know, come out as trans.
00:41:29
But she was invited to dinner parties by some Jewish friends. And over time, like because she forged these new connections with people, it was like what broke through her ideology.
00:41:41
Wow. Did they know who she was when they were invited? She was like on the radio.
00:41:45
Like she had a radio program for white supremacy. And they were just being generous.
00:41:50
Yeah. And my one of my best friends, Avital, who. Oh, I love Avital. Yeah. It was her brother who was one of these people Wow Tiny world Yeah Really small world But it all to say you don have to have the dinner parties like some people are like oh I don definitely not I don want to have that
00:42:05
dinner party and I don't have the capacity to and that's fine but if you can have a dinner party or
00:42:10
if you can have a conversation and it doesn't send you into a spiral then that's great it helps
00:42:15
everyone's unique and everyone's role is different and not everyone is destined to pull people out
00:42:21
of cults. I would say maybe leave it to the people who are really good at dinner parties,
00:42:26
really good at small talk, being welcoming without judgment. Very few of us in this world
00:42:32
actually are like that. Yeah. I think it's a good thing to strive for because I do,
00:42:36
there is a part of me that feels really guilty about, you know, the way I have considered
00:42:40
I would never, you know, but I've been a 20 year old girl. I've been in my 30s depressed. Like
00:42:46
we've all been at certain places in our lives and we're susceptible to whatever level of influence
00:42:51
someone else, you know, wants to totally put on you. Also, I think it does make us feel better
00:42:57
if when you go through the world kind of having a cynical eye toward things, you do, you know,
00:43:02
you're missing out on stuff, but you're like, not going to fall for it. And so then there is that
00:43:07
it's like the cold comfort of telling yourself, like, I was smarter than everybody where it was
00:43:11
like, and you didn't get invited to any dinner parties because of it. So there is, you know,
00:43:16
I think it's that it's like probably less guilt and more of like you're an automatic cynic because of how you were raised.
00:43:23
Same with me where I'm just like, I'll see you coming from a mile away. But it doesn't make me smarter because every human being has the kind of needs that if you're not getting those needs met, any old group can come along and be like, come be in our band.
00:43:37
And then, you know, exactly. Yeah. And like Megan, we have very different sensibilities.
00:43:44
Yes. In our lives. I'm a scientist of the metaphysical. Megan loves magic. Yeah, I love magic.
00:43:53
I love science. And so when she said a scientist of the metaphysical, I'm trolling her.
00:44:01
She's trolling me. I believe in nothing. but we talk about how anytime we have a cult
00:44:09
on the podcast that's like a more spiritual metaphysical new age one like Megan would
00:44:15
join and that's what we traditionally think of cults as like either religious or that but then you got these
00:44:21
self help programs and you got these ones that are more for like making you achieve or like making you smarter
00:44:29
I would join that's a great point I'm just thinking about like Jonestown with some religious leaders.
00:44:36
You're such a NXIVM. Right. You would totally. 25 year old Georgia would have fucking signed up immediately.
00:44:42
Burned it in. Should we play the game since we're talking about this anyway? Good segue.
00:44:47
Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. I'm Bailey Taylor and this is It Girl. This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now.
00:44:57
Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the
00:45:01
pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all. As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated.
00:45:08
So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity.
00:45:13
You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app,
00:45:19
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00:45:26
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00:45:32
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00:45:43
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00:45:52
when a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist they take matters into their own hands i vowed i will be his last target he is not going to get
00:46:05
away with this he's going to get what he deserves we always say that trust your girlfriends
00:46:11
listen to the girlfriends trust me babe on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you
00:46:19
get your podcasts So it's time for Would You Join This Cult with the gals from Trust Me.
00:46:30
Well, this one, I covered this one. It was the Sarah Lawrence dorm dad who moved into the dorms and basically started this very tiny cult with his daughter's friends.
00:46:41
Yeah. We interviewed them. That was a great episode. Was it so sad? Because they seem so normal.
00:46:46
They are. They're cool and normal like all of our guests are. Yes, of course. And so manipulated.
00:46:51
Yeah. Just so manipulated. That guy is endlessly fascinating to me. You don't get video of like the actual abuse that often.
00:47:01
And the fact that it's all like on, they were just all filming it on their cell phones.
00:47:04
You can just see him talking to that. It's just like so compelling. I can't remember if he was saying he was in the CIA.
00:47:11
I guess. Yeah. And just had this big story. I'm very drawn to kind of narcissistic liars.
00:47:19
Same. same yeah you don't expect your friend's dad to be that no no so if your friend's dad is like
00:47:26
i wasn't i'd be like okay yeah i totally see how that happened i would see him as an authority
00:47:31
figure for sure yeah yeah yeah i'd join that shit that's a double yes the dorm dad cult is
00:47:38
going to be fully occupied so would you join the manson family okay um let's go early on yeah
00:47:45
I see you early on. Totally. A good commune. Hot people. If you look back at some pictures.
00:47:53
Some nice drugs. Drugs. Yeah. You would. I know. Yeah. Yes. I feel like the firm.
00:48:00
Either like once they move out into like the desert with no plumbing and no. You might lose me.
00:48:05
I would have been. Yeah. And once we start getting into murdering people. Oh, wait, that too.
00:48:10
Like I'm talking about that. But it's always before we know about the bad stuff.
00:48:14
Would you join in the beginning? Yes. Yes. One hundred and fifty billion percent.
00:48:18
Right. I would say no only because I think the early days would have been all those like kind of
00:48:24
like hangout drug parties with the Beach Boys and stuff. and I know Charles Manson sat around
00:48:29
playing the acoustic guitar at this party. So if people were like, we're going to his farm,
00:48:33
I'd be like, absolutely not. It's so heartbreaking. You're like, I love this guy.
00:48:36
And then you hear his band. And you're like, oh no. Cannot do this. Yeah, that's true.
00:48:40
That's true. That's a good point. I don't think, I think it depends on who I'm exposed to initially
00:48:46
because I think I would have been drawn to like- Tex? No, sorry. Tex. Tex Watson?
00:48:51
Tex Watson, the hot guy. The hot guy. Oh, I don't remember what Tex looks like. Is he hot?
00:48:55
Yeah. Just a tall cowboy. But somehow more dangerous. Okay. Okay. Then, well, then probably.
00:49:01
She's like, is he available now? I think I would have been drawn in general to like the counterculture groups that were happening at that time.
00:49:10
Because I'm like anti-capitalist and shit. You know? I don't know if it would have been that specific one.
00:49:15
Yeah. But I would want to hang out with the Beach Boy, though. For sure. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:49:19
Yeah. They were on scene. What about the Alamo Christian Foundation? They were the ones that did the airbrush jean jackets in the 80s as a way to make money.
00:49:32
Christian based. It was all about the woman, all about the wife in the beginning.
00:49:37
And then she died. And like the boyfriend, husband took over. There's this really great documentary that just came out about it.
00:49:42
I just covered it. That was just I had never heard of it before. But yeah, I've never heard of it before.
00:49:47
This is embarrassing. No, it's Ministry of Evil. Oh, yeah. Ministry of Evil. Ministry of Evil documentary.
00:49:52
I mean. But it's kind of similar to Children of God, I think, in that way where they were like the L.A. people who were left over from the 60s, still hanging around, you know, partying.
00:50:04
Partying for purpose. Yeah. And they're just kind of like, well, how about this purpose?
00:50:08
I think they also used flirty fishing styles to get men in, like hot women. Yeah.
00:50:13
And at one point they all lived in an apartment off Crescent Heights and there was like a...
00:50:17
1,300 people in the house or apartment? It can't be 1,300. I think it was something like that.
00:50:22
But this is what I think, though. It's a good point. Like, yeah, maybe it was 300.
00:50:27
I'm not good at that. But that's a good point, though. Like, I wonder about the people who back then were hippies and they were doing all these things that were against what they were raised in and they were still looking for God, but being themselves.
00:50:39
I bet that was more susceptible than just the people who were just trying to look for a commune. Had nothing to do with God.
00:50:45
Yeah, we've talked a lot about how surprising it is how many hippies who were like counterculture people joined Christian cults that became like hyper conservative.
00:50:55
Yeah. It's like they still wanted, they left their home and their hometown and everything, but they still believed and wanted that.
00:51:01
And they still wanted a community. And I think that there was something baked into the end of the world and not having saved money that probably appealed to them.
00:51:12
That makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I think that's my guess. Yeah. So I would probably join it because I have saved no money.
00:51:21
And I love jean jackets. Okay. Here's a big one. Om Shinrikyo. That's the 1980s and 90s Japanese doomsday cult responsible for the 1995 Tokyo subway sarin gas attack.
00:51:35
We have not done an episode on that yet. Although we have somebody who survived it.
00:51:39
What? Who agreed to. Come on. Wow. We do? Yeah, we do. Ooh. Ooh. My uncle lived in an apartment with a roommate who was involved in that, but that's not interview worthy, I don't think.
00:51:52
I mean, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Okay, this one, the documentary was incredible. Love Has Won, the 2010 spiritual influencer culture with Mother God, Amy Carlson.
00:52:04
It was a New Age cult. I don't know if that's more special to you guys in any way.
00:52:08
Megan would join that one. We interviewed her daughter. I think that off the top of one's head, you might say that I would join, but I would not because it was, I'm trying to think of how to word this, a little bit like.
00:52:24
Too yoga based? No. No, she's into that. Okay. What I'm trying to say is that it was like a little bit more meth rather than like.
00:52:35
Oh. You know what I mean? I hear you. There was a high meth vibe there. Got it. Very cluttered, dirty.
00:52:41
Oh, that's true. Stay up all night. Yeah. Well, wasn't it just the one guy? Yeah, but like it was never just one guy.
00:52:48
Yeah, there was too many posters. There was like too many. It was just gross. You needed to be like pristine.
00:52:53
Yeah. More like if Gwyneth had one. You know, like I need it to be aesthetically pleasing.
00:53:00
You don't want to watch the sunrise. No, this was just too many. I totally hear you.
00:53:05
Trinkets. You don't want to have to be telling people to clean the kitchen. No, not adults.
00:53:10
No, no, no, no. If we're all going to live in this farmhouse together. Because I'm assuming I would join this one more as an adult, whereas I'm thinking of
00:53:17
myself as a teenage 60s girly when I joining the Mansons just so people have like what part of your life is the person who would Yeah I hear you Yeah yeah yeah These are the days of your life I still think if you didn know how they were living and you saw Amy Carlson
00:53:33
Yes, yes. She's great. She was dynamic. No, she wasn't great. Megan, no. You would like watch her YouTube videos or something.
00:53:41
I totally would be susceptible to her. I did have friends who liked her. I thought maybe she was a little crazy.
00:53:48
but the interesting thing about Amy is that she did say I think I'm crazy and her follower said
00:53:54
no you're not yeah yeah no you're not you're god how do you get that many followers if you're crazy
00:53:59
you know what I mean like and so she kind of tried to back off from it she was like you know
00:54:02
what never mind and they're like no we're gonna watch you die and wrap your body in Christmas lights
00:54:06
so that's what's happening which also is very methy that's that whole thing of like an art
00:54:11
project a dead body as someone who has been on before as a younger person excuse me that is very
00:54:18
messy oh you haven't heard that's george's cult of meth yeah oh i did not know so you would join
00:54:26
this i would at 14 i would have a 14 14 okay not now not now no more no more meth now that's good
00:54:34
i want to ask a question do you guys think and this might be inflammatory but is there any like
00:54:39
influencers today? Because I have a lot of friends who are like, you've got to watch
00:54:42
this person's videos or you've got to listen to this person's podcast. It changed my life
00:54:47
and I'm immediately like, red flag. Well, I think all of them are. Yeah. A good amount.
00:54:51
You don't have to name names, but is there like a... Teal Swan. Well, honestly, Teal Swan
00:54:54
and Benton Homosaro, but they've both been already sort of exposed for their behaviors.
00:55:00
Yeah, like I said, I love a good person speaking to aliens, but they're all full of shit,
00:55:04
most likely. What were you about to say? But what if one isn't? Exactly. Just the one.
00:55:08
You just need one to poke through. Did you see, you know, the brother and sisters that were the original on Dancing with the Stars?
00:55:15
Julianne Hough. Have you seen those? Like she now has some sort of. The actress?
00:55:21
The beautiful, beautiful actress? She was the dancer on Dancing with the Stars. She's a blonde.
00:55:25
She's really perfect. And she has started what started out as like a wellness company.
00:55:31
But she went to do like the live speaking for it. and people post the video and they're like,
00:55:37
this is absolutely a cult. Like the way she isn't really saying anything, but everyone's like cheering like crazy.
00:55:43
And she's kind of like doing a little bit of a dance, but also is like, we all are going to get to,
00:55:47
and people say it's like maybe like a little bit of a born again Christian fundamentalist
00:55:52
going in that direction. Megan's ready to defend. I can see it on her face. Where do we draw the line with just like being motivated?
00:56:01
I think at Bolero hats. if we just cut it there where it's like sorry you've gone over the line we can't trust you over
00:56:10
here yeah i mean yeah i just have an allergy to the level of certainty that a lot of these people
00:56:16
use yes when how they speak yes and like a certainty about things that like nobody has
00:56:21
certainty on you know what i mean and like a lot of the people who are selling supplements for
00:56:26
example like are there any real scientists on the board of their company usually not the fda is not
00:56:33
checking it out. Right. And what's tricky is that so many of these people will have videos that have
00:56:39
really good advice. Like it's not black and white. I hate Jordan Peterson. He's got a couple good
00:56:45
videos on relationships. You know what I mean? Teal Swan has a couple good videos on relationships.
00:56:49
So it doesn't mean that there isn't some value in like some things that they'll say, but like
00:56:53
how certain are they talking and what do they actually know about that subject? And are you
00:56:58
going to other sources as well for your information? It's almost like it has to have some
00:57:02
solid information at base, right? Because it has to grow from somewhere. So you're like,
00:57:06
this is a person that is giving me this kind of insight. If there was no real insight,
00:57:11
you wouldn't stay. So you're getting a little more of that, like, how can I be on the grind
00:57:16
that Julianne Hough is on and, you know, get my eyes real wide? Yeah. And that's why arguing with them is so annoying for both of you, because they have
00:57:25
the nugget of truth that they're trying to get you to see. And you see the mirror of lies and
00:57:31
that you're trying to get them to see and you both count. And yours is probably harder to explain
00:57:35
than theirs is. Theirs is just like, I just do believe it. And you're like, but how about
00:57:39
science? This and this and this and this. Yeah. Yeah. But I remember I remember making those same arguments when I
00:57:45
was like still very much a Mormon. I was like, no, but I know. Yeah. And like random people
00:57:51
in high school would be like, yeah, but how do you know? And I'd be like, I just know. Wow.
00:57:55
And you feel bad for them or you just like didn't? I felt bad for them and I also felt attacked by them.
00:58:02
Yeah, of course. Well, you were. That was the attack. We were both seriously bullied.
00:58:09
Fair enough. Hence podcasting. This is how we all got here. Should we each pick one of these?
00:58:17
Do we have different cards or the same cards? I don't know. What do you have? What's your last one?
00:58:21
I haven't seen it. Are we asking them if they would join a call? Yeah, wait, should we?
00:58:26
Oh, this one's good. Why don't we butt it in on all of these? Okay. Weren't we already doing that?
00:58:32
Let's pick a favorite. You or us? Both of us. You guys. You guys. Go ahead. How about that one?
00:58:36
Yeah. Hoyt Richards is a friend of mine who we did an episode on him. He was a supermodel, a male supermodel in the 90s who was modeling with all of the iconic
00:58:45
supermodel women. He got drawn into a cult in the 90s and early 2000s And it was like it was all these successful people Would you join a cult full of supermodels
00:58:59
Of course. A beautiful people's cult? Who am I? Isn't that what everyone is trying to do
00:59:04
every day of their life? Right. It's like, when will I get my phone call? Right.
00:59:09
He did end up getting so supremely isolated and they made him give up his career.
00:59:13
And he escaped like in the night from this compounded story. It's absolutely crazy.
00:59:17
Wow. But like Hoyt's hot and... Hoyt's hot. Beautiful people know more than we do, right?
00:59:24
Sometimes. Maybe. They must. What about... Would either of you guys join Heaven's Gate?
00:59:29
I think early on I would have. Yeah. Why? The alien thing, I think it's just fascinating.
00:59:35
And like it never got so big that it felt like you were like anonymous. You were just part of this spaceship.
00:59:43
Maybe in my 20s, you know. Are you into aliens? Is that your thing? I want to be proven wrong.
00:59:48
I want to be like proven that aliens exist because I don't believe in anything. But, you know.
00:59:54
I also find aliens very exciting. What about a ghost one? A ghost cult? Is there a ghost cult?
00:59:59
Is there a ghost cult? You can't just make up cults. Not with the trusty gals around.
01:00:04
Okay. I'm officially starting my cult today. I don't feel like I know of a ghost cult.
01:00:09
There's a cult where somebody channeled somebody dead. Okay. Well, yeah. But like I want to be haunted.
01:00:14
Like it is a goal of mine to be haunted since I don't believe in anything. It's exactly how we feel about aliens.
01:00:19
Great. Like I want to be proven. Yeah. This is the beginning of a horror movie that I want no part of.
01:00:24
We're going to come back in a year and I'm going to be an alien and you're going to be a ghost.
01:00:30
No. Wait, that means I'm dead. I don't know. I honestly remember seeing somebody from Heaven's Gate on the news that lived.
01:00:37
One of those people that like stayed behind. Frank. Was it Frank? Was he the website guy?
01:00:43
They left behind someone who knew how to work their website. You watched a lot of news, P.S.
01:00:48
Yes. I am older than everybody. I'm a child of the 70s. My parents watched 6 and 7 o'clock news.
01:00:55
Wow. And then Jeopardy. So I just had to sit there powering through because I wasn't going to stop watching TV, whether it was news or any TV.
01:01:03
I didn't care. So then I just had a lot of questions. But that one, I just remember when that happened, it was so shocking.
01:01:10
And it was like early 90s, right? Yeah. Like 90 or 91. and there was just an interview with one of the guys that was left behind and they asked him why
01:01:19
did you join it was like this is so crazy why would you join this he was just like i don't know
01:01:23
nothing else to do it was like he had kind of like low-grade depression and just was like i just don't
01:01:29
see what else there is to do and when i saw him say that on the news i was like oh you better be
01:01:34
careful with these feelings that you have because it was like yeah i know that feeling or i'm just
01:01:38
It's like I just want to sit on the couch and like not do anything. And it's like that is an opening of like thinking that that mindset is the way it's always going to be.
01:01:50
And, you know, people who are really fired up about something trigger something and others who are maybe a little more depressive leaning or something.
01:01:59
And you can go into it with the savviness of like this person's kind of crazy. I just need a little bit of like things to do.
01:02:05
And you still get sucked in even with the prior knowledge. I completely understand that.
01:02:11
Like when you see someone who's excited about something, you're like, God, I wish I could feel that.
01:02:16
So maybe I'm going to fake it until I do or like maybe I'm going to force myself to.
01:02:20
And also one of the things that they do is create strong emotional experiences and you see you keep coming back.
01:02:25
So if you're someone who's like not getting a lot of those, like that's going to be pretty appealing.
01:02:29
Yeah. Also with relationships, like I'll be like, this guy's a little insane. Like, I'm not going to fall in love with them.
01:02:37
I'm just going to have some good, you know, hookup situations like no big deal. And then three months later, I'm like crying.
01:02:44
You're like, I am trapped. What is wrong with you? Literally same. And I'm like, all of it, everything.
01:02:52
And I knew. It doesn't matter if you know sometimes because the emotional highs and lows work on you, even if you logically know that they're happening.
01:03:00
If you've ever gotten in a bad relationship, you are susceptible to a cult. Hey, oh my God.
01:03:05
Everyone on the planet. Not everyone. Some people have secure attachment styles.
01:03:11
No. Not anyone listening to this podcast. Never seen it. Thank God. Never seen it.
01:03:17
Those are not our people. That's a ghost. Also, shout out because Frank Liford was the Heaven's Gate survivor that we had on our podcast.
01:03:23
And his story is incredible and very, very heartbreaking. That makes me happy to hear if it is the same guy.
01:03:28
it makes me happy here because he clearly was into something he stuck around with us
01:03:33
yeah yeah like it didn't you know what he went into and that's also a thing of like being young
01:03:39
and making that decision such a final and final decision traumatic for a survivor all of those
01:03:46
things where it's like yeah can you picture maybe in 20 years you will not feel like this
01:03:50
and that's one of the things that the apocalyptic thinking is so powerful and um
01:03:55
staving off. And like the two by twos in particular, when we're all groomed to want to be
01:04:02
workers, that's what it's called when we grow up, that means that we don't have any possessions,
01:04:07
we don't get married, we're celibate, and we go live in people's houses forever. And
01:04:11
a very good kind of person is drawn to that life who maybe has a little bit of OCD a million different things but then a very bad type of person is also drawn to that So you have this dichotomy of personality types that get drawn into circumstances
01:04:28
All kinds of agendas. All kinds of agendas. I can see myself joining an apocalypse cult just because it seems exciting.
01:04:35
Yeah. You know, like sometimes I'm like, I was living in L.A. for 20 years. It's the same shit every day.
01:04:40
Like if I knew the end of the world was coming and like something was going to happen to all of us
01:04:45
and the Lord would make a decision. I could see that being, I don't know. The happiest people I know are planning for Doomsday.
01:04:52
They have a very strong purpose. It's like packing for a trip. Because nothing else matters, right?
01:04:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, everyone loves a deadline. I feel like that's the crossover for my alien Doomsday thing.
01:05:00
Like, that's the alien Doomsday scenario. They're kind of a paraphrase. The pie chart of that.
01:05:06
Independence Day. The movie Independence Day, yes. Georgia watching Independence Day is the center of that pie chart.
01:05:12
It's a documentary. But you guys know it's a documentary? Mars attacks Mars attacks
01:05:16
yes that's a good point that's a good point and to that to that good point like I
01:05:22
as I joked about earlier like I don't have a savings I was not taught to think that tomorrow
01:05:28
would come right and every time I left the house it was like is that what you want to be wearing
01:05:33
when Jesus comes back to the world wow is that what you want to be thinking do you want to
01:05:37
do you want to be in the movie theater when Jesus comes back and you'd be like no
01:05:41
I guess not but like I really wanted to see Clueless. I don't know. Just a human being.
01:05:47
Yeah, I'm just a human being trying to figure it out. And a lot of people who were in that group
01:05:52
do have savings accounts and were able to think rationally about things and hold both things at once.
01:05:58
I think some people aren't and are like, well, the world will end tomorrow, so I'm not going to worry about it.
01:06:03
And that was me. They didn't give you a specific timeline, right, though? Because in Mormonism,
01:06:06
it was like, it could be tomorrow. It could be in 50 years. We don't know, but it's soon.
01:06:09
It was probably tomorrow and the two by two. Yeah. More pressing. I need a time.
01:06:15
I'm so punctual. It's annoying. I need a time. And that's why this time in the world is so perfect for these conversations because the world actually kind of is ending.
01:06:24
So it's like just a pressure cooker of so many belief systems and, yeah, trying to dig yourself out.
01:06:32
And we're all looking for answers and we're all looking for reasons to think maybe why the world actually isn't ending.
01:06:38
And why it matters if it doesn't and what the meaning of life is. It's a really important type.
01:06:43
And the belief system is so dichotomous that it's like, how can those people think that?
01:06:48
But, you know, they're thinking the same thing about us. Yeah. Well, the time has never been better for us to have a cult podcast.
01:06:54
And we are so excited it's your guys. We really are. Thank you so much for joining us because we are so glad to have you on this network.
01:07:02
Oh, we're so glad to be here. That's right. You guys, trust me, cults, extreme belief and manipulation debuts on Exactly Right on July 30th.
01:07:11
With new episodes every Wednesday. And go listen, subscribe, and give it a five-star review.
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01:07:21
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01:07:27
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