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00:02:00
Goodbye. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia. Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates, and insights.
00:02:26
And you are welcome. Today, we're recapping episode 66, which we named The Devil's Number.
00:02:32
Which isn't true. It isn't true at all. Okay. We're 544 away. 43. This episode came out on April 27th, 2017.
00:02:41
Okay, let's listen to the intro of episode 66. You said, what did you say? Cross your...
00:02:49
Cross your T's and dot your everything That's us tightening the ship Yeah You know, trying to be correct
00:02:59
Trying to fucking do it right Just be professionals That's the goal, that's the dream
00:03:05
So cross your T's and dot your everything It's not going to happen on this episode
00:03:10
Nope Welcome to My Favorite Murder That's Georgia Hardstark That's Karen Kilgareth
00:03:14
This is the show where we talk about our favorite true crime stories and other things.
00:03:20
I love that our ads, like I'm having so much more fun with our ads now that we're like saying what they're saying,
00:03:27
you know, like our tone of voice and them being very normal. Yeah, we're practicing being normal.
00:03:34
We're practicing having professional speaking voices. I think it's working. I like it.
00:03:40
It's good practice. Yeah. Hi. Because you've just been asked to be the voice of McDonald's.
00:03:46
Yeah, that's me. Chicken McNuggets. Can I start off with business? Yeah. Way up front.
00:03:53
This is important. The story that I told last week about Ronnie Chasen's murder, her shooting death, was taken entirely from an article that a man named Gary Baum wrote for The Hollywood Reporter.
00:04:05
And I did not credit him until the 50-minute mark. And somebody called me out about it on Twitter.
00:04:11
And, of course, at first I was very offended. And completely, I texted Stephen. I was like, this isn't possible.
00:04:17
And I remember you mentioning it too. Yeah. Like it was clear to me what you were saying.
00:04:21
But I think the thing, the important thing and the reason I'm pointing it out like this is because, and when I went to listen back, it wasn't even full credit.
00:04:31
The way I said it was almost like I was citing him for the following quote as opposed to everything I'd been saying.
00:04:38
So just to make that point, my apologies to Gary Baume of The Hollywood Reporter.
00:04:42
I did not mean to take credit for your hard work. I feel like the only reason that story is out there is because of the articles he's written based on the research he's done on these files that Beverly Hills Police has released.
00:04:53
And it's all him. I was just reading his quotes and his timeline, chronology, all of it.
00:05:00
So I should have said that at the very beginning where it belongs. And I apologize for not doing that.
00:05:06
Well, sometimes at the very end, you know, we'll be like, and I got a lot of help from this article by this person.
00:05:12
So maybe we should say that in the beginning, even if it's not the whole thing. Right. I mean, I, you know, we could go through and pull it's the thing is this.
00:05:22
We we're never about like I went down and read these files at the police station or whatever.
00:05:28
Like, but it doesn't mean people that are listening know that or give us the benefit of the doubt or understand.
00:05:34
So I think that's especially for me as a professional writer, being accused of plagiarism is a horrible feeling.
00:05:42
and something that I never want to keep the door open on. So I will always cite from now on and just
00:05:49
be very careful. But I think it's also, it's good to get called on something because that's a line
00:05:54
that get once it gets sloppy it just gets sloppier for me anyway It like I always like oh I have to do my book report at the last minute Yeah And then to me that like oh it this built excuse to be sloppy
00:06:09
And there's no excuse for that. You can't do that. The thing of like, well, this was already said perfectly, so I'm going to do that.
00:06:15
But you could put your spin on it. Well, in the past, we've always just gone, I'm totally reading you this article from
00:06:22
Like the I five killer was almost all ESPN.com article or like most of the timeline and most of that in bulk of information.
00:06:31
So like, that's how we do it. We're retelling you articles that we've read, but you just have to say it.
00:06:36
Yeah. That's not what we're always doing. So I don't want, that's not this podcast.
00:06:40
I'm sorry. That's what I'm always doing. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what this podcast is.
00:06:44
So that was a dot your everything corner or a cross your T corner. That's exactly right.
00:06:49
That's, are those two different things? No. Oh, yes. No. yes or no you know what i mean i do i do oh can i this is a good segue into my podcasting
00:07:01
favorites now corner okay can i do this so i'm now listening to in my fucking quest to always
00:07:07
be listening to a sea like a season-long narrative true crime podcast that i'm obsessed with and then
00:07:13
finish in a week and i'm fucking devastated um i love that that's the at the end like you're it's
00:07:22
like you're throwing yourself off a cliff on purpose for a good story yeah i need them i crave
00:07:27
those things and then you grieve them when it's over yeah and i'm like what do i do with my
00:07:31
fucking life now and then i find a new one thank fucking god so please listen keep making them
00:07:35
investigative journalists and georgia will keep not throwing herself off a cliff for them it's
00:07:42
called the accused and it's about this this chick named elizabeth andes in ohio in 1978
00:07:50
who got murdered and like some dude they arrested him and he went to trial twice and was acquitted
00:07:56
and like who fucking did it and this chick who's like researching it is awesome and
00:08:01
ask the hard questions to the cops and stuff but with like a really cute sweet voice so it's not
00:08:06
I like it oh and then oh and the other thing I was going to say is speaking of just
00:08:12
reading articles this is my new sleeping podcast it's called Mysteries Abound And it's just this dude with the most soothing British accent you've ever heard.
00:08:21
And he's just reading articles of mysterious things that have happened. So it's like Mars and murder.
00:08:29
And then like, you know, people who have mysteriously, how do I fucking turn this alarm off my watch?
00:08:40
I don't know. It's always done that. Just once a day, you have to think about it.
00:08:44
Yeah. In the middle of a podcast. Yeah. Anyways, I've been falling asleep to it.
00:08:48
That sounds awesome. It's so soothing. And they're real mysteries. Like he's not just making stuff up.
00:08:54
No, he's reading them from like, this is from this article written by so-and-so and he'll just read it.
00:08:59
Yeah. And so he, you know, the whole podcast is him reading articles. But in the beginning, he's like, I found this one. I found that one.
00:09:05
And I'll save some of them because I'm like, well, I want to listen to this when I'm awake because it's really interesting.
00:09:11
Does it affect your dreams? Do you ever have that? Yeah. Yeah. But then I'm worried I fall asleep in the car when I'm like listening to the episode of like, that's about, you know, this person who disappeared. Five unexplained disappearances.
00:09:25
And then your eyes are just suddenly getting heavy. Yeah. You've hypnotized yourself with mystery.
00:09:29
And then I put my sleep apnea mask on. How did this get in my car? Hey, what? The whole thing is just and then suddenly you're in seventh grade and you have to take a test.
00:09:38
No, this is the worst. My thing was, I always had to, my dream was always, I had to go back and I'd be like 35
00:09:45
and I'd have to go back to high school and play a softball game. And I'd be like, you guys, this is a, this isn't fair because I'm old and B I can't,
00:09:53
I won't be good. Like, why are you making me do this? Trying to reason with everybody.
00:09:57
And they just like, come on. When you have to do something in your dream that you really don't want to do, that you
00:10:02
could get out of in real life by saying, you know, have a headache. Yeah. Or fuck this.
00:10:08
I have a headache. Fuck this. Forward slash. Yeah. It's just like, I feel like up until you were 18, you just had such a, such little control
00:10:17
over your life that we're still getting over it. And like, when I realized when I was like, had my first job at 15 and I walked into the
00:10:24
candy aisle and I was like, I don't have to ask anyone if I can buy any fucking, I could
00:10:30
gorge myself on candy right now. Yeah. It was really freeing. Yeah. And I did. Because it was your money.
00:10:36
It was my money. You could do whatever you wanted. Yeah. Yeah. I was there alone because, you know, my parents neglected me.
00:10:44
And it was amazing. For a second, I thought you meant you worked at that place. So you were like, you worked at the place where you could get the thing you wanted.
00:10:51
I worked at a place and had money to get the thing I wanted. Yeah. But then when I worked in a bakery, yes, I would fucking accidentally break a ton of cookies.
00:10:57
Oh, man. I worked at a coffee shop once that made the best. It was oatmeal and chocolate chip cookies.
00:11:03
or those like you know those like chantilly almond cookies that are like what are those called
00:11:10
florentines yes the ones that are shaped like that they have at starbucks that are shaped like
00:11:15
shells circular no that's not a line shit i mean i'll eat any fucking cookie let's let's get to it
00:11:23
but a florentine is what like um it's like crackly thin um like does it have sugar on the top no
00:11:34
Does it have a face, its own face? No, you're thinking of one of those clown ice creams.
00:11:39
Oh, that's right. That's right. A clown ice cream from Baskin-Robbins. Yes, there it is.
00:11:42
Stephen's showing you. Oh, thank you, Stephen. Is that what they're called? Warrantines?
00:11:45
You know those guys? Oh, dude. This kind? The crisp, thin, almondy one. It's like almond and maybe something like caramel,
00:11:54
says the girl who fucking worked in baking for seven years of her life It must be caramel yeah because they chewy or is it like a brown sugar someone screaming now i making weird saliva noises i know like
00:12:07
they have these at trader joe's and they're half dipped in chocolate yes the bottom oh so i can't
00:12:13
buy those because i'll fucking eat them all same here my dad started buying those oh i know steven
00:12:17
steven's showing me and i'm like honey steven's trying to pass the pictures around look honey
00:12:22
Don't show me a picture of the thing I've eaten 1,000 of. Listen, don't show me anything.
00:12:26
Can I introduce this saying? Don't show me anything. No, there's this. This is one other thing I say all the time that nobody knows what it means except for me, and I think it's hilarious.
00:12:36
There was this J-Lo documentary, quote, documentary on VH1 when she was making her clothing line for the first time in early 2000s.
00:12:45
And someone shows her this jean thing, and she's like, I don't like it. And they're like, well, this is it.
00:12:50
We've already manufactured it. And she goes, don't show me nothing I can't change.
00:12:55
Yeah. Don't show me nothing. Like, why are you, and then why are you showing this to me?
00:12:59
And so sometimes I'll just like, don't show me anything I can't change, please. That's right.
00:13:03
Don't show me nothing I can't change. That's, I love her. I'm sorry. I love Jalen.
00:13:07
What a bitch. And you know, and you could see the girl who was like fresh out of fucking FIDM?
00:13:15
FIDM? Fresh out of like fashion design college, just having an inner meltdown. Yes.
00:13:20
that's a serious mistake and it's like oh but we've already made 50,000 yeah but this is what
00:13:24
you said you wanted yeah and she's like but now that the cameras are rolling you have to seem like
00:13:28
you're the boss yeah well and also you gotta double check and maybe triple check that she did
00:13:33
I bet you she did I think so I think she did I'd love the behind the scenes uh it's like the fake
00:13:39
behind the scenes and the real behind the scenes would be just I mean anyways that's the show people
00:13:45
actually want to see. Yes. The footage of the footage that wasn't. The footage that explains the behavior.
00:13:53
That's what we'll have if we ever have a docu drama. Just like no holds barred. Every single thing showed.
00:14:01
Karen, your hair looks great. And then me going, why does Karen's hair look better than mine?
00:14:05
Fired, fired. Fired. Then you hire somebody that doesn't do hair. No, it's to prove a point.
00:14:10
Yeah. And you get them in there. They do hair better than the person I have. then I so then I lure your person away oh my god meltdown fuck this is good then I fucking shave my
00:14:20
head just to be like oh yeah well and that puts you in all the papers you get the most publicity
00:14:27
it's just all I want in life um god this steven you're writing this down right this is the point
00:14:33
oh it's being recorded we don't wait we're recording wait a second okay do you want do you
00:14:38
want news I can do news corner I wrote some stuff down some of it's not that great news corner
00:14:43
about a crime thing? Yeah, do it. Okay, so this was so hard for me not to tell you
00:14:49
at the airport when we were on our way home from Austin. Oh. Because I read it and I was like, this is insane.
00:14:54
So in Massachusetts, a crime lab, this woman named Annie Dukan was arrested for mishandling 60,000 samples of,
00:15:04
it was a drug crime lab. She like tested 60,000 samples and she mishandled them for 34,000 defendants.
00:15:12
140 of those people were inmates because of her mishandling. Oh, shit. So they have to let 23 people convicted got their sentences overturned.
00:15:23
Now, are they convicted of drug crimes? Yes. So that doesn't bother me that much.
00:15:27
That they're convicted of drug crimes? That they're being let go. And I agree. And then they're keeping the people who also had violent,
00:15:34
you know, it wasn't just a drug crime. It was like a violent felony added onto that.
00:15:38
They're retrying those people. Fuck. So these 23,000 people, 20,000 of them, let's say, who were like, I had an ounce of weed in my pocket.
00:15:48
You know what I mean? Yeah. They're like, oh, well, it wasn't weed. It was oregano.
00:15:53
But this chick Annie, like, fucked it up. Purposely. Really? Purposely. She was trying to put people away.
00:15:59
She was trying to be the top dog and look how great I am at this job and, like, have the most convictions.
00:16:05
And, like, but she was just and all the people who worked with her were like, this isn't right.
00:16:08
and the people who were her boss were like, no, this is great. And so they're trying to get more oversight at Crime Labs now.
00:16:15
There's the new, that's the TV movie I want to see. But it reminds me of the story that I told you last week
00:16:23
of the body that was found in the car with the Uber sticker on it. And then a bunch of people wrote to us and said, was it,
00:16:29
because you know, Cuba Gooden Jr.'s father was found dead in a car. but uh the guy in the car that i read about was in his 30s oh and so it's not the same a bunch of
00:16:41
people were saying what if this is what if this is the thing but cuba goodings jr could his dad
00:16:46
that's what i didn't know that happened yeah it it happened the same day and that's why a bunch of
00:16:51
people were writing to us that's insane yeah i have one more thing about podcasts i'm not saying
00:16:56
like you're not you're going back to podcast recommendations because and we both need to
00:17:00
listen to this this week. Fresh Air has an interview with a woman who was a doctor at
00:17:05
Bellevue Hospital with mentally ill inmates for 10 years. Dude. I saw somebody tweeted that to us
00:17:11
and I saw there is an amazing America undercover, which used to be an HBO series,
00:17:17
A Day in the Life at Bellevue that we watched. This was in the 90s and talked about for months
00:17:24
afterwards because it's so disturbing it's unbelievable but it's also just that that life
00:17:31
to be a doctor I mean that's what my mom did for a living so like to also watch it and just be like
00:17:37
yeah this is your day-to-day it's so intense and you like every you know everything is wrong but if
00:17:43
you leave it's just gonna get wronger because you're a good person trying to help so like
00:17:47
you can't really take yourself out of it because you feel like you need to try to do something
00:17:53
to help Well yeah And most of those people have an incredible um obviously like thick skin but like they not going to quit That not it They just like get stronger and tougher as the insanity grows around
00:18:09
I mean, it's so intense. I would love to hear that interview. Me too. It's just crazy the way mental illness was treated back then
00:18:17
in a way that is horrifying to watch that documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that just made me think of something else.
00:18:28
Oh, I want you and I together. Can we please promise to watch casting Jean Benet together?
00:18:35
Absolutely. It's this Sunday? Yes. Okay. Can I come over? Because there's a wrestling thing that Vince is watching here.
00:18:41
Girl, yes. We can do it from my house. Okay, so good. Then casting Jean Benet is on the books.
00:18:48
Real time feelings. Definitely. Do we live tweet or is that going too far? sure we could live tweet it let's do it my favorite going too far or have we truly crossed
00:19:00
the line this time um my fave murder on twitter is what we are on twitter it's what we are it's
00:19:07
who we become it's who we've lived as for so long now it's our identity it's our spirit go ahead
00:19:15
uh i'm done no no um we want to talk about those cards that we got oh my god present corner
00:19:23
everything doesn't have to be a corner I need to stop it we're recording in the daytime today
00:19:32
and it's got a real I feel like we're really forced to analyze ourselves on this episode
00:19:38
we're really, there's a lot of shoegazing a lot of internal analysis in the light of day this podcast looks real different
00:19:46
there's no Stephen doesn't have a beer I don't have wine everyone's pores are really big
00:19:52
Oh, and the reason we're not recording from yesterday in the evening is because one of my biggest fears in the fucking world happened, which is that a fucking big rig jumped the center divider.
00:20:05
Fuck, is that true? Came into oncoming traffic, which is like a big fucking terror.
00:20:09
Yeah. I know when you're going like 80 in the fast lane and the center divider is like a brick.
00:20:16
Yeah. And you're like, any person could just jump over. I picture it happening. Yeah.
00:20:22
Well, it did happen. It did happen down the street from both of us. Yeah. So basically between our houses, it happened.
00:20:30
And then Steven texts and is like, oh no, all these exits are closed. I can't get anywhere near your house.
00:20:38
And immediately I'm like, oh, well, should we reschedule? Just immediately. And we're both like, okay.
00:20:42
Let's reschedule. Okay, bye. Cancel. Cancel. I love to cancel. Okay. So anyway, we, uh, Georgia put this on Instagram.
00:20:53
We got these cards in the mail that are the most amazing greeting cards. And, uh, they are, there's a hand drawn.
00:21:02
They're like just basically, um, illustration, you know, what do you call those pen and ink
00:21:08
or something? Um, pen and ink. Is that redundant? Ink. I feel like pen and ink is a term, but I could be wrong.
00:21:16
But anyway. Sketches. Yeah, they're like, it's a drawing. So it's like a picture of John Wayne Gacy.
00:21:21
And then it says, who ordered the birthday clown? Or Stephen King. The Ted Bundy one I love.
00:21:27
It's, you know, it's a portrait of an actual photo of them that you've seen before.
00:21:31
And it says, does anyone want to help me carry these birthday presents to my car?
00:21:37
And in that one, the Ted Bundy eyes are nuts. Oh, my God, they're great. And then the one of Richard Ramirez holding his hand up in court, which usually has a pentagram on it.
00:21:47
but instead it, what does it say? Happy birthday. Happy birthday, which is like, okay, it might cross a line somewhere,
00:21:54
but it's like horrifying serial killers that, you know, are big in the society and we all know.
00:21:58
So I don't think it's like, no, it's just references. It's like, you've seen this picture a thousand times.
00:22:04
Now it's a birthday card. And then, okay. On top of that, two things, he wrote a note with it in the style to us in the style of Zodiac killer,
00:22:12
including saying at the end, like, Hey, I hope you like these, blah, blah, blah.
00:22:16
I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a 38 like reading at the end and then it says John
00:22:22
uh John 12 S F P D Z like it's got all the characteristics of Zodiac and then so you can
00:22:29
go to etsy.com slash shop and the name of his Etsy is depressive ghoul G H O U L but it came
00:22:36
to to my house your house house which is my home just so I uh unsettling I brought
00:22:44
this package to Stephen in Georgia when we were recording ads last Friday. And I said,
00:22:52
let's open this together. But just so you know, this got sent to my house. And you know, Karen is fiercely private. So I'm just like my dogs, fiercely private. And so
00:23:02
it was a little scary. But then they were so funny that we weren't that scared anymore,
00:23:06
because we were just laughing and kind of like going, can I have this one? I want this one.
00:23:09
No one that clever. There's even a Mother's Day one from like Ed Gein. And like knowing that clever can be dangerous or if they are, it's like, all right.
00:23:17
And meanwhile, we're looking at picture, all pictures of people who are that clever and that
00:23:21
dangerous, but we're so good. So anyway, so Georgia puts it, we love them so much. Georgia puts it on
00:23:26
Instagram, blah, blah, blah. Then two days later, I get a DM from my Twitter friend, John Freiler.
00:23:31
And he writes, Hey, I'm glad you like those cards. It seems like people on Instagram are mad at me
00:23:38
for sending them to your house though. And then I realized that this, I know this person
00:23:43
and he asked me, he was like, I think he tried to send them to the PO box and they got sent back.
00:23:48
So I just gave him my home address. My friend John Freiler. Who is he? He's a guy I know on Twitter.
00:23:54
And basically I've known him for, it's just that, where he was like, I love your podcast.
00:23:57
Can I send you this thing? Did you have any idea how fucking, talented this human is? No, I had no idea how talented he was. And I had absolutely no memory
00:24:04
of the conversation whatsoever until he basically was scared because murderinos were like, Hey,
00:24:11
motherfucker, leave them alone. Oh no. Yes. And so he was basically coming back to us. I didn't,
00:24:17
I didn't truly think someone was going to come attack you. No, I know. But I think it's that
00:24:21
thing of like, they don't want to be represented that way of like, yeah, we're not, we don't want
00:24:25
to be creeps to you so don't be a creep to them and he's like hey guess what everybody i wasn't
00:24:31
like we tried to give him a boost to like sell his cards and they're like fuck you it turned on him
00:24:36
i'm sorry john we everything about your package was just amazing amazing i was gonna give my mom
00:24:42
what's the mother's day other mother's day one um i can't remember it was ed gein and then something
00:24:48
else and i was like i'm gonna give this to my mom just to horrify her her mother's day ed kemper
00:24:54
the co-ed killer and said the thing of it's so funny ed kemper he really did not like his mother
00:25:00
no uh so anyway thanks john those are amazing and hilarious and that whole story if he hadn't
00:25:06
written to me forever i would have been just a little bit worried in the back of my mind you'd
00:25:10
hear a crunch it leaves at night yeah but also what's funny is i was like oh we talked about that
00:25:16
six months ago and then i checked it was like a month ago horrifying oh we're good horrifying we're
00:25:22
Good. Also, this is just the anecdote I wanted to tell you the other day. April and I were at our pre where we do our show hangout. And I went to the bathroom and I was standing there and there's a woman that was waiting. And she's like, sorry, there's somebody in there. They're taking a really long time. And we stood there for five full minutes.
00:25:44
Are you a knocker? I'm a knocker. I have full knocker and rage knocker. So I was just like, get the fuck out of there.
00:25:49
Three minutes. Yeah. That's what you have. finally a guy comes out of the men's room and then the woman there another girl came and was
00:25:57
waiting behind me and we were both like just use the men's room they're singles for sure so she goes
00:26:01
in there the girl behind me steps up to like wait so now she's second in line or whatever and she
00:26:06
looks and goes oh my god I was just listening to your podcast whatever so we have a moment her name
00:26:10
was Mia I believe from what I remember we have a moment chit chat whatever and then we're just and
00:26:15
I knock again, the whole thing. And does anyone respond? No. And I was like, I was like, we need
00:26:23
to get a waitress over here. I go, I bet someone's passed out on the toilet. Well, finally, Mia steps
00:26:28
up and tries the doorknob and it's open. We were standing there for, I'm not kidding, like almost
00:26:34
10 minutes with an empty unlocked bathroom door, just standing there. Oh my God. And like, and you
00:26:40
got angry out of it. I was mad twice. Oh my God. When the other girl came out of the men's room
00:26:46
where you're like, listen, bitch. No, that was, she was like come and gone. But when she opened it,
00:26:52
I just yelled dude in her face and walked it. Like it was the funniest moment. It was really
00:26:57
fun. It was a fun moment. Hi, hi to you. I hope your name was Mia. Cause I'm pretty sure it was.
00:27:03
That's good, man. People need to, we were talking about at live shows and I'm fucking
00:27:09
a big fan of this because it's like 70% women that before the show starts and there's like,
00:27:15
Vince goes out to like, look around and he's like, there's the craziest line in the women's
00:27:19
restroom. And I know that in, on the weekends at the Ferry building in San Francisco, they'll close
00:27:25
one of the men's room to women only. And they're like, men go upstairs and use the bathroom because
00:27:30
there's five of you. And they turn the men's room into a woman's room, which I think is
00:27:34
so fucking forward thinking and so fucking awesome and i appreciate it very much and i think we should
00:27:40
i think some of the places we do shows do that already but i think we should all do that you're
00:27:45
staring at me do you not agree no i don't know i'm just thinking of all that bathroom politics
00:27:51
that people i mean that it just immediately put me in that place of like all the people that are
00:27:57
like and then the people that'll go into the room and all that shit where it's like no one
00:28:00
that's not a real thing. Yeah. Just pee. That's not, yeah, that's a public place. You're fine.
00:28:05
And yeah, it should be dedicated. It should be dictated by the numbers. Like, have you ever seen
00:28:09
there's a really funny picture of the women's restroom line at a rush concert? It's like,
00:28:14
no one there at all. Oh my God. It's same diff question. And I'm not asking for myself necessarily,
00:28:20
but if you're in a public restroom, it's pretty, you know, sizable, like at the airport
00:28:24
and you're peeing, is a public restroom an okay place to fart? yeah i think that's the only place okay because sometimes i'm like societally acceptable i mean
00:28:34
it's they can still hear it just as loudly as if you were at the sink uh-huh but but they can't see
00:28:39
your face that's all that matters all right good it's all about shame yeah just do it where you
00:28:44
can't i mean especially at the airport jesus christ everyone has gas at the airport gotta do
00:28:49
it airport is that's how the planes fly they're fueled on everyone's gas from airport food
00:28:56
too much alcohol $9 bottles of water nerves fear you're going to get dragged off the plane for no reason
00:29:05
constipation from massive pharmaceuticals just to get the anxiety away from you I never thought about that
00:29:10
there's so many more pharmaceuticals at the airport yeah I didn't either that's exactly right
00:29:17
dude have you ever seen that then we'll get on to business skippers have you ever seen that
00:29:25
night vision, but it's like heat vision footage of a guy that farts. Oh no, I don't like those.
00:29:35
It's so funny. You don't like them? Well, because they do it for people walking down the street, not people who know, right?
00:29:40
That's exactly right. But they don't show the person. It's just the torso down. But they just show, so you can actually see what it looks like when someone farts, like
00:29:48
the cloud. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. I hate it. And it reminds me of when people would tell kids that if you pee in the pool like there a dye and it make it show up green And so it not true but you terrified It just reminds me of that where it like shame right on top of you
00:30:06
That's right. Yeah, it's anything coming out of you. Shaming you for being human.
00:30:09
Yes. Although. Peeing in a pool isn't human. Peeing in a pool is enjoyable. I mean, you got to expect some level of pee in a pool.
00:30:18
Well, yeah, especially with children. But also because if you're in a warm enough pool,
00:30:23
It's kind of like that trick where you put your hand, someone's sleeping hand in a glass to make them wet the bed.
00:30:27
But you're in a pool. It's like that same feeling. But it's so hard to get yourself to pee in a pool, like to start it.
00:30:34
Oh, I disagree. You're not supposed to be freely peeing. You're not supposed to be like, this is against societal norms.
00:30:40
You got like trained not to do this when you were two. Yes, that's true. Do it. But if other people are in the pool, that's gross.
00:30:47
And then what if you had vitamins that day? people are swimming they're like this pool water tastes weird no but i have that yellow i love that
00:30:58
yellow p when you take vitamins yes and you're just like oh fuck it looks like you were in
00:31:03
chernobyl and then you're like oh no that's a vitamin b yeah everything's okay and your p is
00:31:07
red oh i've never had that happen you're like oh god i'm bleeding from my p and then it's over
00:31:12
oh wait i ate beets yesterday seriously oh i went to sea plantation and we are back oh we just can't talk about this enough it's the citing sources
00:31:29
issue that we learned our lesson in last episode like every lesson that we've learned on this
00:31:35
podcast we learn it publicly and we learn it with a lot of hostility coming from the other side this
00:31:41
guy was fucking pissed. It was crazy. Also, it was that kind of thing where it's an interesting way
00:31:48
to mark time because I was using Twitter as like a comedian and a person who was just trying to
00:31:56
post jokes. And this is around the time I was like, I can't use Twitter in the same way anymore.
00:32:01
And it was mostly because I can't, you know, my favorite joke is telling people to shut up and
00:32:06
seeing their reaction. They didn't like that. Do you think like 2017, a male journalist coming
00:32:13
after you publicly in that way is like cool? It wasn't a cool experience, but I have to say he
00:32:21
was right. I mean, there's no arguing the fact that the combination of things where it's like,
00:32:27
it looked intentional that I didn't credit Jerry Baum until the end of the episode for just a,
00:32:33
like basically a pull quote. Yeah. So I did it wrong. And like, that's that. And this is kind
00:32:39
of the risk that we are always up against because you always do stuff wrong. And like, that's fine.
00:32:47
As long as you go, oh, and I think this is kind of like how we did it from the beginning. It's like,
00:32:52
you know, saying prostitute because that was what was in the article and people writing in and being
00:32:57
like, can you please say sex worker? Yeah. Yes, we can. It's not that big of a deal to say you did
00:33:03
something wrong. So it was very jolting and alarming to have a guy like yelling at me.
00:33:09
And then I was like, OK, I'll fix it. He's like, that's not enough or whatever. I'm just like,
00:33:13
I'm not in a fight with you. It was aggressive. I don't know you, but happy to fix it, want to fix
00:33:19
it. And certainly I think it's interesting because that is, you know, the guy that did it is
00:33:24
basically responsible for the way we now always make sure to cite sources at the top of the page.
00:33:30
Yeah, because we want to. We totally do. Yeah. And no one, I mean, we said it before, but it's like, no one thinks we fucking wrote these things. No one believes.
00:33:38
We didn't investigate these pieces ourselves in a week. No, but it's also great to be able to start naming the people who did the hard work.
00:33:48
So it's like, we can only talk about this because Gary Baum went out there and did the work.
00:33:52
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. In a different world, we would be investigative journalists, but that's too much college.
00:33:59
Yeah, I just, I don't think me, as an alcoholic, I would have been able to do it in a way.
00:34:05
Yeah. But the beginning part couldn't do the, you know, school. Same. Homework. With depression and anxiety?
00:34:11
Yeah. No. No, thanks. Not when my bed is calling. But thank you. Gary Baum did it.
00:34:15
Yeah. Oh, one quick corrections corner. I refer to the host of the podcast that I fall asleep to back then.
00:34:24
It's called Mysteries Abound. and I say it was a British man because back then, the podcast has done something for me too
00:34:31
where I now can hear the difference between British, Australian, and New Zealand accents.
00:34:37
Yep. But I couldn't then and I called Jim Moon British. He's actually Australian
00:34:41
and I miss that podcast so much. Mysterious. He doesn't make- So good. He doesn't do new ones anymore.
00:34:46
It ended in October 2019, but you can still hear the old episodes. He has such a soothing ASMR voice.
00:34:53
Yeah, and he's talking about mysterious things. Like how quickly do you want to fall asleep when you think of that?
00:34:59
It's great. Yeah, because you start kind of imagining things and then suddenly your plane
00:35:02
rides over. You're fine. Oh, and there's some updates in the Annie Dukin misconduct case that we talked about,
00:35:10
which led to the largest dismissal of wrongful convictions in U.S. history. So by 2019, more than 61,000 drug convictions had to be thrown out because the evidence couldn't be
00:35:22
trusted. It's one of the biggest cleanups of wrongful convictions in U.S. history. In 2021,
00:35:29
the state's highest court erased 100 more convictions, saying it wouldn't be fair to
00:35:33
make people go through new trials after the huge mistakes. Imagine those people who had been in
00:35:37
prison because this woman wanted to be better at convicting than other people. Yeah, it's happened
00:35:44
a lot. I think there's for sure. She's just getting into that position. Yeah, right. In 2024,
00:35:49
Four legal experts said this case set an important rule. If the system is broken the state has to fix it not the individual people who were harmed Yeah So it great that the burden now goes to the state to correct its mistakes when systematic misconduct is uncovered
00:36:05
Yeah, very important. Also very important is that we talked about the casting JonBenet TV show,
00:36:10
which is still one of the weirdest experiences I feel like I've ever... We started watching that
00:36:15
thinking we had this great watch-along idea. Yeah. And immediately we're just like,
00:36:19
what? Stop the tape. What's happening? What is this? Why are you doing this? Yeah.
00:36:23
It was very of a time. It was of that time. Totally. Yeah, for sure. Okay, wow. So much business up top.
00:36:31
But now let's get into Georgia's story about the exorcism of Annalise Mitchell. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
00:36:46
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00:39:59
Okay. I think I went first last time, didn't I? Yes, you did. Didn't I, Stephen?
00:40:06
Yes. I can't believe I knew. I can't either. That you knew because I didn't. This would have taken me 10 minutes to remember.
00:40:15
It's probably because I had to go first. I, for some reason, see it as a negative.
00:40:19
Oh, you do? I do. I wonder. I don't mind either way. Like you have to break the ice or something.
00:40:26
But I feel like if you go last, then you have to be like, you have to close it hard.
00:40:32
Yes. You know what I mean? So I don't like going last because I don't, then I can let you close it hard.
00:40:36
Yeah. Shit. I forgot about that part. Okay. Let's just go back and forth every week.
00:40:41
That's a good idea. We figured that out after how many episodes is this? 67? 67?
00:40:48
68. Steven, you should know this. Steven. 66. 66. Oh. Good old lucky 66. 66 is not lucky.
00:40:55
This is the devil's episode. God, do you think we'll ever get to 600? Yes, for sure.
00:41:01
That would be crazy, right? If we start tripling up. Oh, that sounds... I want to go take a nap just hearing that.
00:41:10
Anyways, are you ready for the exorcism of Annalise McHale? Fuck yes, I am. Yeah, you are.
00:41:20
All right. Annalise McHale was born on September 21st, 1952. in Leibflag – nope, Leibelflying.
00:41:31
Leibelfling, Leibelfling. It's not Leibelfling. I bet she went in L-E-I-B-L, Leibel, Leibel, F-I-N-G.
00:41:40
Leibelfling? Anyway, she was born in Bavaria, West Germany. Bavaria sounds good.
00:41:45
Yeah. West Germany, which is a pretty – yeah, okay. It's a pretty forward-thinking face.
00:41:51
It's not the fucking Styx. West Germany you know No Bavaria No Anyways she lived with her three sisters and her parents and their family were devout Roman Catholics They attended mass like twice a week And Anna
00:42:07
as she was known, she led a pretty normal life. You know, you see pictures of her. There's a lot
00:42:11
of pictures of her. She's pretty. She looks very normal, you know, as a teenager. She's just a
00:42:16
normal girl. And her classmates described her as withdrawn and very religious. Sorry. Which part,
00:42:24
withdrawn or very religious. Or the combination of the two is like, you think you're better than
00:42:28
me? You think God likes you more than me? Yeah, he doesn't. But you saying them being Roman
00:42:34
Catholic and going to church twice a week, I just being a raised Catholic, there's another
00:42:41
echelon of Catholicism of people that go multiple times a week that makes me feel like I'm being
00:42:47
suffocated invisibly when I hear about it. It's just that kind of like, it's such a ritualistic
00:42:54
like old, almost like... It's old. It's like ancient. It's ancient and it's kind of like, I don't know.
00:43:06
It just, it worries me. Tell us non-Catholics, like fiercely non-Catholics myself,
00:43:12
what is mass like? Because I've like been in a church three times in my life. It's long. It's like an hour long.
00:43:19
And it is a series of prayers and songs. And then in the middle. In Latin? No, no, no.
00:43:26
In the 50s. And in this time, they might have done it in Latin. They definitely did it in German.
00:43:32
That's for sure. At least. It was not in English. But in the late 50s, early 60s, I think, they passed a thing called Vatican II where they updated everything.
00:43:44
So, like, when my dad was growing up, my parents were growing up, mass was in Latin.
00:43:48
And you took Latin in school and all that. So, like, Vatican the sequel? that again too this electric boogaloo came out this time we're not latin anymore that's right
00:43:59
and they kind of basically updated it so that it was all in english and they cut some stuff out and
00:44:06
they just made it a little more maybe livable i don't know accessible passed a couple extra laws
00:44:12
i'm not sure the details why i've been told it multiple times so i just don't remember any just
00:44:18
tried to update it from the 1600s i think they allowed guitars for some certain kinds of hippies
00:44:23
if they wanted to do it that way nobody that i knew did it well annalise did not have a guitar
00:44:28
and she did not go to the to version 2.0 they did not of mass no they were at one point you do eat
00:44:36
the body of christ that's kind of the main point of mass you snack snack on the body of christ
00:44:41
that's right like the spread afterwards is like no it's all in the middle you drink of his blood
00:44:45
and you eat of his body. And then you basically are forgiven for all your sins because as a mortal, you sin constantly
00:44:51
and you have to constantly ask for forgiveness. So it's just a little background.
00:44:55
So many questions. That's that wafer, right? And the blood is wine. Yeah, but in most masses,
00:45:02
the normal people don't drink the wine. The priest drinks it on your behalf. What a dick.
00:45:06
You're like, I'm good, dude. I don't need you to do it for me. Give me some. Give me some wine.
00:45:11
Yeah, okay. Then, at age 16, she suffers a severe epileptic fit and is diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy and depression.
00:45:23
Is that what you have? I don't think I have depression, although I sure get low sometimes.
00:45:30
But mine is... You have petite mal. No, grand. When I have them, they're grand. Karen doesn't do anything half-assed.
00:45:39
But they also call it seizure disorder. It's a different time. She's treated at a psychiatric hospital and is put on anti-convulsion meds.
00:45:48
I'm sure the psychiatric hospital is not chill. Anti-psychotics and mood stabilizers, as well as anti-convulsion drugs when the convulsions continued and none of it alleviated the problem.
00:46:01
She was prescribed another drug, Alept, which is similar to chloroprasm. and why didn't I take this part out?
00:46:13
It's used in the treatment of various psychosis, including schizophrenia, disturbed behavior, and delusions.
00:46:19
And by 1973, she's suffering from depression and starts hallucinating while praying.
00:46:26
She complains about hearing voices telling her that she was damned and would rot in hell.
00:46:31
And her treatment in a psychiatric hospital did not improve her health, and her depression got worse,
00:46:36
despite the meds. Long-term treatment did not help, and she grew increasingly frustrated with a medical intervention.
00:46:43
She'd tear her clothes off, she'd eat coal, and she'd urinate on the floor and then try to lick it up.
00:46:49
Huh. Yeah. The, okay. Let's play diagnose her right now. She's got schizophrenia.
00:46:55
Well. She's developing schizophrenia. Well, has it, but also I used to always be fascinated.
00:47:02
There's a, there's a illness called pica, which is you, the need to eat inedible things,
00:47:08
which it sounds like she has, But that might be a symptom of a bigger, the schizophrenia itself.
00:47:14
And pica is like you're low on some necessary. Minerals. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people eat drywall.
00:47:22
My friend had the incredible urge. She never did it as far as I know to eat laundry detergent.
00:47:27
Oh, well, that's like on my crazy obsession. There's a show on TLC where people.
00:47:33
Couch stuffing. Yes. The lady who ate the couch. Yeah. So nutso. this same friend had bought like or stole from a pharmacy epicac oh and she was like i'm bulimic
00:47:44
i'm gonna try it and then she did it and she was like that was the worst experience and i think
00:47:48
she stopped being bulimic after that because it was the worst experience of her life because
00:47:52
syrup of epicac just makes you vomit horribly everything you everything you have in your stomach
00:47:59
it's for Children eat poison. Yeah. So a lot of parents will have it on hand just in case.
00:48:04
Anyways. And it gives you like food poisoning barfing. It's retching until your entire stomach contents are just gone.
00:48:13
Anyways, that was a sidebar. Sidebar. And also. What? No, just, I just love how we're just like, maybe it's this and maybe it's that anyway.
00:48:22
Yeah. Yeah. We're really doing a service to everything. so she finished high school and when she was 20 uh she started studying at the university of
00:48:34
wordsburg so she went to university even though she had these issues and i couldn't complete
00:48:38
community college for more than a year like that's i could barely hold down a job good for her yeah i
00:48:45
mean i'd walk out of jobs sometimes yeah i just never come back um her symptoms had significantly
00:48:50
worsened though um oh she was studying to become a teacher but her problems got worse she heard
00:48:56
voices telling her, I already said that, she saw devil faces, she became suicidal, and her family
00:49:01
believed that she was suffering from demonic possession. Jump to demonic possession. A family
00:49:08
friend arranged a pilgrimage to a sacred spring in San Damiano, and the friend became convinced
00:49:15
that she was possessed because her inability to walk past a crucifix and drink holy water. Do you
00:49:20
drink holy water? No. So then what's the inability? Not sure. Like everyone's hands have been in it?
00:49:24
I wouldn't either. Yeah, I've never heard of drinking it, except for in horror movies.
00:49:32
Okay. But I don't know. Maybe it's different in West Germany. I'm not sure. She became aggressive, and she took to self-harming, and she ate insects.
00:49:43
She growled at religious icons and would sit under her kitchen table barking for two days.
00:49:48
So the family sought help from the church. the thing that's causing the problem is where they go for help yeah i mean yeah it's like every
00:49:57
single solution aside from like the psychiatric place every single solution is religious based
00:50:03
well it's like when you hear of those parents who like these days who refuse to go to uh the doctor
00:50:11
to get help and then they get arrested and their kid dies because it really just needed penicillin
00:50:15
or whatever the fuck. Yeah. And the kid dies and they get convicted of child neglect.
00:50:21
Yeah. So, yeah. Anyways, many of the priests they saw said Annalise needed a doctor.
00:50:29
Even the priests were like, hey. Yeah. But one eventually said that she needed an exorcism.
00:50:35
And then she was granted one. You have to get granted to be exorcised under the condition that would be done in total secrecy.
00:50:42
And her parents were like, that sounds on the lev. Let's fucking do it. right? Like everyone's like, no, no, no. Go to a doctor, go to a doctor. One's like, sure. Just
00:50:51
don't tell anyone. Yeah. Great. That's what we've been waiting to hear. Well, maybe because they
00:50:55
were trying to be progressive and there's exorcisms are about as like retro as you could
00:51:01
be in the church. Definitely. So in 75, she and her parents stopped seeking medical advice
00:51:10
altogether. So three days after her 27th birthday, 22nd birthday, and over the next 10 months,
00:51:17
Father Arnold Rents and Pastor Ernst Ault performed 67 exorcisms on her. Whoa. For fucking, yeah, 10 months and 67 like series of exorcisms. And it said that every,
00:51:34
but they say that every action that they took during these times and rituals were all condoned
00:51:38
by Annalise, who's fucking mentally ill. She's like, yeah, bring it on. This is what I need.
00:51:43
Why are you letting, she shouldn't be, she shouldn't have decision-making, you know,
00:51:47
capacities anymore. Well, also what, if nothing else is working, what else are you going to do?
00:51:52
I mean, if not, if you've gone to hospitals and you've, and nothing is changing it,
00:51:57
then of course you're like, yes, keep trying this other thing. Yeah. um they would attempt to drive the demons from her body while she would argue with them into
00:52:09
demonic voices and guess what they fucking taped them all audio tape them all and videotape them
00:52:15
whoa would you rather watch and listen to one of those or listen to a 911 call uh one of those
00:52:21
are you sure having been a catholic yes it's terrifying is it yeah i mean it's it's it's
00:52:28
It's terrifying because it's scary and her voice is insane, but it's also horrifying because you can tell it's just like there's someone acting in a way that like they're mentally ill.
00:52:38
And it's like it was almost like it was like ramping her up. Yeah. It's really fucking horrifying.
00:52:45
Wait. So when you listen to it, you didn't believe she was possessed. You believed that she was mentally ill and basically answering the call that they were.
00:52:53
Yeah. And having fits of like moments of mental illness. And I don't believe in like, it's not like I would have believed that because I don't believe in God and the devil and all this.
00:53:03
But so all I could see it was from a mental illness point of view, because that's all I have to hold me together and explain myself.
00:53:15
And anyways, she stopped eating altogether. She believed it would lessen the evil's control over her.
00:53:20
And she got so weak that her parents had to hold her up when she got too weak to do it herself.
00:53:25
So they would like hold her up, take her to bed, carry her around and shit. And there's these fucking photos, man.
00:53:31
So she was this normal, pretty, regular young woman. And the photos look like they're from a horror movie.
00:53:37
Oh, no. I mean, her like she has these like blisters on her mouth. She ends up being 60 pounds.
00:53:44
Oh, no. She looks like and do you ever see the photo of like when they found someone's sister in the back room who had scoliosis and they just left her back there and starts like starved her.
00:53:55
and they found her in like the 70s back there and took photos of her and she was alive which is also terrifying She looked like that She looked like an old woman Oh no
00:54:05
It's really horrific, but you can tell it's her. I've never heard of that scoliosis story.
00:54:12
It's really sad. It was making me think of that part in Pet Sematary where the sister sits up in bed.
00:54:17
It might be that. Well, I mean, You know what? Do you think that's what it is? That's what?
00:54:22
That scary thing where she sits up really fast? her okay that but it looks like that yes so what i was talking about was fiction no no no because
00:54:29
then it also the please it's like people haven't been fucking abandoned and locked into back rooms
00:54:34
or whatever no but it just like the way you just described that i was like oh wait that's the best
00:54:40
part of that fucking movie best worst part of that movie it is i forgot all about that part
00:54:43
because i thought it was real but that's what she looked like okay essentially horrifying
00:54:49
unkempt way too thin. Like clearly to go from, and you look at her and there's no way she's 22
00:54:56
in your mind to go to that level is just like the fact that they could keep doing that to her
00:55:02
despite this is unconscionable. So she died in her sleep on July 1st, 1976. She weighed 66 pounds.
00:55:12
Her knees were broken due to prolonged and repetitive genuflections. Yeah, that's kneeling down.
00:55:18
As part of the exorcisms, and she was immobile and had pneumonia. She broke her knees from kneeling over and over.
00:55:25
Yep. Broke her knees. That's fucking insane. The knees are hard to break. I know, man.
00:55:38
The autopsy reports today that her death resulted from malnutrition and dehydration due to almost a year of semi-starvation during the exorcisms.
00:55:46
The death was investigated and the state prosecutor found that Anna's death was preventable.
00:55:52
Even as late as one week prior to her death, they could have saved her. Her parents and the two priests were charged with negligent homicide and the trial began on March 30th, 1978.
00:56:02
The priests were defended by church paid lawyers and the parents were defended by a dude who claimed that the exorcism was legal and that the German constitution protected citizens in the unrestricted exercise of their religious beliefs.
00:56:15
so it's like if you believe it just do it yeah you know it's like nike just do it they played
00:56:23
you it seems like you made yourself sad on that one i did because well first i was like that's not
00:56:29
a good exorcism just do it you know what i mean it's like that's not that's not a good attitude
00:56:34
about exorcism no they played the court the audio tapes from the exorcisms which they maintain
00:56:41
proved that she was possessed due to the appearance of demonic voices on the tapes.
00:56:46
The priest testified that Anna was possessed by several demons claiming to be Lucifer, Cain, Judas Iscariot.
00:56:53
Judas Iscariot. He's the one that turned on Jesus. Thank you. You're welcome. It's in there for a reason, and now I know why.
00:57:01
That's amazing. Look at you. Who's Hitler? Now, which one of the saints is Hitler?
00:57:08
Hitler came out of her? Yeah. They said also Hitler and Nero. Jesus. Not Jesus. It's all-star villain.
00:57:15
No, Jesus wasn't there, clearly. No, Jesus is against them. He was nowhere to be found in this situation.
00:57:22
No, he didn't come to visit. Hitler, fuck. Guess who's coming to dinner? Not Jesus.
00:57:29
He took a pass on this dinner party. He latered right out of there. Nero, my God.
00:57:34
Who's Nero? Nero's the Roman, what do you call it? Caesar Augustus, whatever, the guy that, oh my God.
00:57:43
No, I get it. He's the guy that fiddled while Rome burned. He was the last emperor of Rome.
00:57:49
Okay. Stephen, check it. History and math and science, not my thing. And anything really.
00:57:58
They also noted that the exorcisms apparently finally worked. They said it worked immediately prior to her death.
00:58:06
So like, well, so it works. How unfortunate. Yeah. They also noted that they were found guilty of a manslaughter, sentenced to six months imprisonment, which was later suspended, and three years of probation.
00:58:20
And there's a photo of her mom at the funeral open casket, like, prone next to her daughter's corpse that she effectively killed.
00:58:30
Her story is dramatized in the films The Exorcism of Emily Rose, Requiem, which I watched, and Annalise The Exorcist tapes.
00:58:38
so like this is where they all came from is pretty much this chick's fucking experiences
00:58:42
yeah despite the fact that in 1984 the bishops declared annalise mentally ill so even the bishops
00:58:48
were like remember what we said they said she's not possessed but still her grave became a
00:58:55
pilgrimage center for fringe believers of course um okay and then this made me think of this book
00:59:00
i recently read called brain on fire by susan callahan have you heard of it no it's really good
00:59:06
And then I looked it up to find the details of it because in it, she talks about how this disease that she had, they now think is linked to a lot of what they thought was the exorcism signs.
00:59:22
And so I looked this up. It's not my, I'm not fucking, this has already been talked about a lot on the internet as far as Rain on Fire is concerned.
00:59:30
So it's not me being like, oh my God, I just put it together. Like everyone put it together.
00:59:33
Yeah. So Susanna and the book Brain on Fire is really fucking good. She's 24. She's a writer at the New York Post and she starts going fucking crazy.
00:59:41
She comes fixated on the idea that her home was infested with bedbugs. She like calls a bedbug guy in to like clean out her like what the fuck.
00:59:48
And he's like, there's no bedbugs in here. She's paranoid, irrational, laughing and crying all the time.
00:59:53
Her family thought she was having a nervous breakdown and they like kind of blow her off and give her antipsychotics and then anti meds when she starts having seizures So along the same lines and she is eventually finally diagnosed with anti receptor encephalitis which is caused when the body
01:00:10
immune system goes haywire and attacks a protein in the brain that helps neurons communicate.
01:00:17
Fuck. Yeah. Which sounds a lot like Alzheimer's. Yes. They're linking it to that too. And it was like, there was one doctor who was able to finally
01:00:26
figure it out. And the way he figured it out is when he had her draw a clock and she drew the
01:00:32
circle and wrote all of the numbers tightly on the right-hand side. So the brain wasn't computing.
01:00:39
It wasn't even seeing the other side and she thought it was normal. You know what I mean?
01:00:42
Yes. Because I feel like I've seen that picture. Right. Yeah. So she was, so it's the same receptor that's blocked by PCP or ketamine and both drugs can make a normal person act like someone with schizophrenia.
01:00:56
So, which I didn't know. That sounds terrifying. Why would you take those drugs?
01:01:00
In the 70s, I think most people accidentally smoked PCP. Yeah. There was a lot of like, because that's angel dust, right?
01:01:06
Yeah. Yeah. Or accidentally on purpose because the drug wars were fucking racist and horrible.
01:01:13
That's true. Uh, look it up. Look up Nero. How dare you? Look it up. No, I didn't mean it like that. I'm like,
01:01:21
you better. Yeah, I'm right. I didn't mean like, I don't know. I mean, look it up. I don't care.
01:01:26
No, I meant like, you know what I mean? I just want to make clear. Yes. The disease, the disease chip, Stephen, make me sound like I can read. We can do this.
01:01:38
The disease typically strikes young women and symptoms worsen and include agitation,
01:01:43
paranoia delusions hallucinations and seizures and psychosis yeah it's now literally thinking
01:01:49
back in the 90s of like did i have paranoia did i have was i hallucinating but did you think do
01:01:55
remember because like schizophrenia hits younger women it seems like really that's really the like
01:02:00
main demographic yeah and so did you ever be like shit man if i'm gonna hit it this is gonna be it
01:02:05
like at 24 i was like get out of this yes without schizophrenia you well yes because the uh so the
01:02:11
brain grows like a certain way every seven years, a certain amount every seven years. That's like
01:02:16
this. So that's why they say it's when you're, um, you know, 21, whatever it goes in sevens of
01:02:23
when they think when they most commonly diagnose it. Uh, so they say, and when I, I was at the end,
01:02:30
it was, I was 28 and it was the, my fourth one or whatever. Yeah. Your fourth seizure. Oh no,
01:02:36
no, no, it was like the cycle or whatever where I was, when I read that thing about the brain
01:02:40
growing and that's why sometimes people have seizures yeah and sometimes they have them and
01:02:44
never have them again i had one at 14 no 12 yeah i had one at 12 your brain is a little my brother
01:02:49
had one too yeah i'm pretty common because it's just complicated um well yeah then it makes sense
01:02:56
why a young woman comes in with fucking symptoms that look like schizophrenia who's like 23 or 4
01:03:02
and of course it's just an obvious diagnosis but then when the brain the drugs don't work
01:03:07
you know that's a sign that it's not yeah but you know they didn't doctors a lot didn't want to
01:03:13
look into that more and would just send you to someone else and well it's like when they're
01:03:17
supposed to be the final word and if they don't know what to do then what do you do well she
01:03:22
said she spent a hundred thousand no no she said a million dollars on different drugs to try to
01:03:28
tackle this jesus and none of it worked and then finally this guy's like draw a clock and she's
01:03:34
like what and draws it and it didn't cost anything to draw the clock and for him to be like you have
01:03:39
this wow okay so anyways that's not about this isn't about her uh so it's now speculated that
01:03:45
anti-nmda receptor encephalitis could be behind historical descriptions of what was believed to
01:03:50
be demonic possession including um in the exorcist when she walks on her walk how do you explain that
01:03:58
she backwards crab walks yes that's like your bones get stiff your body like turns into these
01:04:04
crazy folds and stuff like that. And that's one of the fucking things that happened.
01:04:08
Really? Yeah. That's crazy. So that exact symptom of demonic possession is actually a symptom of this.
01:04:15
Wow. So appropriate diagnosis and treatment. More than 80% of patients have a good outcome. And then I wrote the worst
01:04:24
line I've ever written to end a story because I didn't know how else to do it. Susan Callahan got better, but unfortunately, Annalise Michelle didn't have
01:04:32
the chance. I know. I mean, listen, listen, I think they're making a movie out of it. Brain on
01:04:39
Fire. Really fucking interesting. I would love to see that. I have it. You can have it. Um,
01:04:44
I do want to read that. Uh, I saw, I think Requiem, is that the one that's in German?
01:04:49
Yes. That movie is so upsetting. I saw the first, I would say two thirds of it. And then when she
01:04:56
started having seizures, when it started getting into that thing, I was like, Oh, I don't want to
01:04:59
watch a girl have seizures it looks so horrifying when she has a seizure yeah i mean it's just
01:05:06
well it is really i mean you picture back when demonic possession was conceived yeah and when
01:05:12
it was people who like if you had a brain disorder in you know medieval times or the dark ages you
01:05:17
were just fucked because there was no treatment there was nothing to be done not even the dark
01:05:22
ages in the fucking 90s at bellevue hospital like a seizure you were you know if they couldn't
01:05:28
control it right well they can control it they just don't know why you're having it unless they
01:05:32
go in and they go have brain surgery and they look to find if there's scars on your brain right but
01:05:38
like if there's no if you don't have like oh i've gotten a car accident and this is what's happening
01:05:42
if you don't have a story that they can put a storyline to then they're just like we don't know
01:05:47
and that's in the beginning of my seizure disorder journey in the beginning they were just like oh
01:05:52
this is just alcohol withdrawal you this is what happens to alcoholics i of course then with absolutely no shame whatsoever was like but I never stopped drinking So how could I have withdrawals There no withdrawal situation
01:06:05
happening. But, you know, and then it turned out that that wasn't what it was because I still have
01:06:10
seizures to this day. I knew things were happening and I had injuries and I'd weird, you know, I'd
01:06:15
weird eye because of the aura of my seizure is my eyes flick around. And so when that first started,
01:06:21
I would be driving and it felt to me like I was looking at the other cars coming. Like I have a
01:06:26
very specific memory of driving down fountain and just check. I felt like I was checking the other
01:06:29
cars. And so I was like, Oh, am I crazy now that I'm like OCD checking cars? But it turned out it
01:06:35
was my eyes just going, cause that's the aura. And then you seem paranoid a little because you
01:06:40
can't stop looking at the cars. I mean, I didn't think that, but you could put that together.
01:06:44
If you were a doctor trying to figure out what the hell was going on, all of that stuff fits.
01:06:49
totally but the idea that they just keep going back to the church or to catholicism to fix it
01:06:55
is just like it's heartbreaking yeah i know broken kneecaps is not cool oh that's such a specific
01:07:03
thing of like okay this is a thing you can point to of excessive what she went through that specific
01:07:11
thing of her knees being broken from fucking yeah someone should have said stop way fucking earlier
01:07:16
than when she weighed 66 pounds. It's insanity. It doesn't make sense. But the whole time she was on board with it,
01:07:22
so they were probably like... Because they're priests. These people have like...
01:07:25
No, no, no, she was because she was... No, I'm saying because priests are doing it to her.
01:07:29
She's a devout Catholic. They know best. They drink the blood of Christ, man. They know better than doctors.
01:07:35
They're like final word. It makes me think too of... Did you watch Taboo? The Tom Hardy series on FX?
01:07:40
Oh, wait. We've watched a couple episodes. There was just one near the end. his sister who's married and she's just like a rebel. She's just like a fuck you rebel for lots
01:07:51
of different reasons. Her husband finally decides that she's possessed by the devil and has someone
01:07:56
come to exercise the demons inside her. And she basically just gets molested by this priest.
01:08:02
And it's, it's that thing too, of women in society over the years where it's like,
01:08:07
when you did have these people and it's not, you know, it's not the exact same thing every time,
01:08:12
obviously but that it's such a good example of like women having no um you know ownership or
01:08:18
ownership over their own fucking bodies so then it was like if you're sassing back and saying fuck
01:08:23
and all this stuff then you're possessed by the devil and then two men come in and get to just
01:08:28
do what they want to quote unquote get rid of the devil inside you and you are just tied down and
01:08:34
you know you have to take it well it's the same thing as far as in like the 50s and 60s and 70s
01:08:39
where it's like my wife is being rebellious and or depressed. And it's like, well, give her a fucking pill.
01:08:49
Lobotomy. Oh, shit. Yeah. The lobotomy situation. And like she doesn't want to be a fucking housewife anymore.
01:08:57
She's going crazy. OK, we're back. Do you have any updates on this case? No updates on this case.
01:09:06
But the book I mentioned, Brain on Fire by Susanna Cahalan, which I still highly recommend in relation to this case, was turned into a film by the same name for Netflix.
01:09:17
And Chloe Grace Moretz was the woman who played the author who wrote about this incredible experience she had that just I think about it all the time when you hear about exorcisms and how freaking just dark it is.
01:09:32
Wild. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. let's keep going with the bad. Yes. And get into Karen's story about Jack Unterweger,
01:09:42
the Vienna Strangler. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer,
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Vital Farms, good eggs, no shortcuts. Goodbye. Okay, we're going back. No, wait, wait, wait.
01:12:40
We're going back to the area that you were just in for mine. What are the odds? So we were talking to somebody yesterday who said, do you guys take requests?
01:12:52
And we were kind of like, but then he said, do you know about this guy? And the second he started talking, I knew who he's talking about.
01:13:00
And I got that thing that I always get when people talk to me about cases where if I know,
01:13:05
I just want to interrupt them immediately and be like, it's this, this, this, and this.
01:13:08
Well, that's what I did. And you were quiet. So you're probably like writing it down.
01:13:14
I wasn't, I was just mentally noting, but that's what I wanted to do was just be like,
01:13:18
and I think at some point I did say something, but it is so hilariously frustrating when it's
01:13:23
somebody's going like, have you ever heard of this thing? And then they tell you the whole story and you can't, you can't immediately just be like, yes.
01:13:30
Or correct them. Um, so I knew if I had such strong feelings, I should tell that story.
01:13:35
So awesome. I love it. That's like such a quick turnaround. I know. I heard about it yesterday.
01:13:39
Yeah. And look at me now. So, uh, this is the story of Jack Unterweger, the Vienna strangler.
01:13:45
And it's so crazy. Um, this should be much more well known and talked about. It's so crazy.
01:13:54
Okay. So essentially just to give you a little background on Vienna, Austria, which I can't tell you how many times I got confused while I was writing this, forgetting that Vienna is the city within Austria and not Austria as a city itself.
01:14:10
So much to learn. So much. So many ways to grow. I feel like we're learning so much this episode.
01:14:16
I mean. Growing. It's kind of like being in school. It's school time. It's school time of day.
01:14:22
We're dotting our everythings. All right. So in 2005, there was a study of 120 world cities.
01:14:31
And Vienna ranked, it tied with Vancouver and San Francisco as the world's most livable city.
01:14:41
And then in 2011 and 2015, it was ranked second behind Melbourne, Australia. and it is
01:14:50
classified by the United Nations Human Settlements Program as the most prosperous city in the world
01:14:58
2012-2013 so it's fancy-pancy they barely have that much crime they have very little murder
01:15:09
very little so on New Year's Eve 1990 a woman's body is found by hikers in the forest in Western Austria
01:15:16
Her name was Heidi Hammerin. She was a 31-year-old sex worker. She was nude, face down, posed,
01:15:23
and had been strangled with her own stockings that were tied in a complex slipknot.
01:15:27
Ugh, never wear, I'm never wearing stockings because that's all they're used for.
01:15:31
You know what I mean? In these stories, absolutely. So five days later in the city of Graz,
01:15:40
hikers find the body of Brunhilde Massa in a forest. She's partially buried. She's been posed in the same manner as Heidi was.
01:15:48
She was strangled with her own bra that was tied in a complex slipknot. Don't wear bras.
01:15:53
I'm just taking off all my clothes for this episode. There's all these solutions.
01:15:58
Solutions. No bras. Okay, so the police can't find any usable evidence on either of the bodies,
01:16:04
except that Heidi had a bunch of red fibers all over her that didn't match anything that she was wearing.
01:16:09
So they took those fibers, put it in a bag for later. But it was so uncommon that anything like this would be happening, that these murders hit the papers and everybody in Austria is freaking out.
01:16:29
So they have a crime reporter named Jack Unterweger who takes to the streets to talk to police and sex workers about these crimes for Austrian national radio.
01:16:40
That's the same name as the guy he started talking about. I was trying to say it fast so you wouldn't notice that.
01:16:48
He interviews on the streets. He interviews sex workers about the fear that they're feeling.
01:16:53
And he goes to the police and talks to the investigators about whether or not they have any idea of who they're looking for.
01:17:02
And the police tell him they have no idea. What a great ruse. Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, California, that's where we live.
01:17:09
a 35 year old sex worker named Shannon Exley is found underneath an 18 wheeler in Boyle Heights
01:17:17
she's posed she's naked she's been strangled with her own bra that's been tied with a complex
01:17:22
slipknot Boyle Heights is close to us uh-huh very close oh my god um then so the police when they
01:17:30
find they see this there's no clues there's nothing so uh they look into any other unsolved
01:17:37
murders with the same M.O. and they find two others, both Irene Rodriguez, who was found in Boyle Heights as well,
01:17:45
and a woman named Peggy Booth, who was found in Malibu Cannon, had both been strangled to death with their own clothing left out in the open. They were all
01:17:53
sex workers They had all three been assaulted with tree branches So immediately yeah immediately the LA detectives know that they got a serial killer That three murders in 15 days
01:18:06
So they're like, we have a fucking serial killer. But then nothing else happens and the case goes cold.
01:18:12
Now let's go back to Vienna. There's two more sex workers' bodies that have been found.
01:18:18
Karen Araglew and Sabine Moitzi. They were both also found in the forest, both strangled.
01:18:25
with their own clothing that was tied in slipknot. So every time it happens, it hits the paper and people freaking out.
01:18:34
The pressure and the panic is building because this is just something that does not happen there.
01:18:40
So finally, a retired detective named August Schenner from Salzburg is reading about these murders, and he contacts the Austrian police,
01:18:49
the Viennese police, I should say. And he tells them that Jack Unterweger, the crime reporter and the famous crime reporter, he's a well-known guy around Austria.
01:19:03
Oh, shit, I didn't know that. That he reminds the police that Unterweger is famous because he was convicted of murder in 1974.
01:19:11
um he uh uh august shenner tells police it's the same mo as the 1974 murder of these women that are
01:19:22
being killed now except for the 74 murder he knew the woman personally she was not a sex worker
01:19:28
um why is he out of prison but it's the same oh i'm about to tell you okay um it's the same mo
01:19:34
same knots, same everything. And Schenner says, I know you don't have any, you're saying you don't
01:19:42
have any suspects right now. You should at least take a look at his movements and see where he was
01:19:47
all these different times in these different locations where these women's bodies were found.
01:19:53
So the police start to look into Unterweger and that trial. So basically he, as I said,
01:19:59
he was tried and convicted in 1974 for the murder of this, let's see, her name was Margaret Schaefer.
01:20:10
He was, he went to his, the girl he was dating at the time, he went to her hometown
01:20:15
so she could visit her family in Germany. And they see, as they drive into town, they see
01:20:22
her school friend, Margaret Schaefer, walking along the street. So at that moment, Jack Unterweger
01:20:29
decides that they're going to rob her and her parents. What dicks? So he ends up taking her out to the forest,
01:20:39
murdering, attacking her, raping her, murdering her, strangling her with her own clothes.
01:20:44
And his girlfriend spills the beans on the whole murder, and he ends up going to jail.
01:20:51
So while he's in jail, he goes into jail, and he can't read or write. He's had a horrible childhood.
01:20:57
his mother um he alleges his mother was a prostitute or a sex worker sorry um the word
01:21:04
prostitute is used a lot in this case so um uh but uh he says that she was a prostitute she gave
01:21:11
him up to his alcoholic horrible grandfather when he was little and she took off he never knew his
01:21:18
father they think his father was an american soldier um and uh he has to live as a child
01:21:27
live with this alcoholic grandfather in a cabin in the woods who a one-room cabin where he is
01:21:33
constantly bringing girlfriends and sex workers back to the cabin to have sex while he's in the
01:21:39
room oh man that's his childhood he when he gets older he so then finally the state takes him out
01:21:46
of that situation. He goes from foster home to foster home. Then he goes to juvie for a little while.
01:21:53
He finally gets out. And between 1966 and 1979, he's convicted 16 times of sexual assault.
01:22:04
Holy shit. And he spends most of that period of time, it was like nine years, in jail.
01:22:11
So when he finally gets out of jail, that's when he finds the girlfriend, starts traveling all over, and that's when he ends up
01:22:19
killing Margaret Schaefer. So he goes to jail illiterate, but he, while there, teaches himself,
01:22:28
he is convicted and given a life sentence. And in that, sorry, in that trial, he's declared insane
01:22:36
by a psychologist who describes him as being a sexually sadistic psychopath with narcissistic
01:22:41
and histrionic tendencies prone to fits of rage and anger. And that psychologist said he's an incorrigible perpetrator.
01:22:50
So he goes to jail. And when he's in jail, I've said this now three times, he can't read or write.
01:22:56
So he teaches himself to read and write in jail. And he starts writing plays, he starts writing poems,
01:23:03
and he starts writing children's stories. And at the same time, there was this movement in Austria
01:23:09
for prison reform. and one of the, like the approach of their prison reform was called re-socialization.
01:23:17
So it's the idea that if somebody is in jail, they understand what they've done, that they've done wrong,
01:23:22
that they should have a chance to make good on that. That's what jail is, prison is for.
01:23:30
You don't get to do that. So they're basically, it's this kind of, it's very, the intellectuals of the country
01:23:40
we're kind of like, this is what needs to happen. We need to give people a chance.
01:23:44
And, and through the arts and through self-expression, um, they can basically reform
01:23:50
themselves And so Jack but that doesn matter because they still committed this crime Sorry Go on No no no You you exactly right It pisses me off But it that old I think it back before they understood serial
01:24:06
killers. They understood these pers these personalities and right what that actually
01:24:11
means how somebody can be actually totally unrepentant and have no conscience. So they
01:24:17
don't, of course, they're not sitting there going, I shouldn't have done that. I promise
01:24:21
I'm not going to do it again. Like, that's not happening. I think that mindset that people had back then where it's like, anyone could commit these crimes, not thinking that.
01:24:29
No, it's just, you know, those people who are saying that don't understand the urge to kill or to sexually assault someone because, you know, they don't have that.
01:24:40
They're grouping all criminals together. Yeah, or they're grouping all humans together and mental, you know, capacities and fucking psychopaths.
01:24:49
So there's a lot of people who theorize that when he knew that this was the reform, because the reform started before he went to jail, before any of that happened.
01:24:58
So he knew that was something they were looking toward. So he gets into jail and is basically like, this is the prisoner I'm going to be.
01:25:06
And so instead of being here for a life sentence, I'm going to get myself out by playing straight into the need for this program and people's need for this program to be real and to work.
01:25:16
Yeah. So while he's in jail, he writes an autobiography called Purgatory. I can't say the German version of that word because it's also crazy.
01:25:28
And that autobiography becomes a hit. What? And a director even makes a movie of it.
01:25:34
It's basically his life story. Holy shit. And there's this groundswell of support for him and his art and his expression
01:25:41
and the proof that he can be re-socialized and that this can work. in 1985 they start up
01:25:48
a certain group of people start up a demand for his early release so it's all actually
01:25:52
one could say if that was the plan it's going perfectly for him and he basically
01:26:01
in May of 1990 he gets released from prison after serving 15 years of a life sentence
01:26:07
so immediately he gets released from prison and he becomes a fixture on television talk shows
01:26:14
He poses as the model of prison rehabilitation. He gets invited to high society cocktail parties.
01:26:23
His autobiography is taught in schools. His stories for children are performed on the radio.
01:26:29
What in the fuck? Uh-huh. The poor woman who got killed by him is like, hey, I would be still alive if this guy.
01:26:37
Yes, exactly. So he actually was there. There's clips of him on, I think it was called Cafe 2.
01:26:46
Now I can't remember what the name of the show is, but it's literally a circle of men in like turtlenecks.
01:26:52
And it's like, you know. Suit jacket and turtlenecks? They're very clearly like the intelligentsia.
01:26:57
And they're just talking about prison reform. And he's there in an all white silk suit.
01:27:02
What? He looks like Steve Martin doing a character in a movie. Oh my God. And he's there to give his firsthand account of the reality of prison reform.
01:27:12
To school them. Yeah, to tell them how it really is. And this is what everybody wanted, and he was doing it,
01:27:19
and it was all like, this is how society should truly be. Diabolical, man. He also made a lot of money because of all of these successes.
01:27:31
He wore designer clothes, the white silk suit, which I enjoyed. He's wearing it in a lot of clips.
01:27:37
He also drove a Ford Mustang with the license plate Jack 1, which I don't know why I think that's so hilarious.
01:27:42
He won. Is the number one. Oh, I think it's like he fucking won. Well, you're exactly right.
01:27:49
Because he did. He gets he gets an 18 year old girlfriend. So in September of the same year, he's released in May.
01:27:56
In September of that year, some people walking along the Vitava River near Prague find the body of Blanka Bakova.
01:28:04
She's not a sex worker. she was just nearby meeting friends for a drink. And this is four months after
01:28:12
he has been released from prison and is living this life. So on the advice of the man from
01:28:20
Salzburg, sorry, turn the page. On the advice of August Schenner, the police get
01:28:30
a search warrant and an arrest warrant. They start looking at Jack Unger, now I've lost every Jack Unger watcher's movements. And they see that he,
01:28:43
coincidentally, has been in all of the towns where these women have been murdered when they
01:28:48
disappear. So they're starting to track it and they're like, oh, this guy is exactly right.
01:28:52
Like, this is serious. So they get a warrant to search his home and an arrest warrant. But when
01:28:58
they get to his house he's not there so they start looking through his house they find evidence that
01:29:04
he had gone to Prague at the same time as Bokova's death to do research on an article about prostitution
01:29:10
and he was placed at a cafe 500 meters away from where she was last seen the night she disappeared
01:29:17
they also find a red scarf and they bag that shit up so one detective that's looking around
01:29:24
his house sees that he has keepsakes from a recent trip to la and so they're like what was he doing
01:29:30
in la so they call the lapd and they ask if they have any unsolved strangling uh sex work or
01:29:37
homicides and lapd's like we got fucking three fuck so uh what year is this sorry 90 ish what's
01:29:44
that what year is this 91 okay so it turns out that jack had been hired by an austrian magazine
01:29:50
to write an article on prostitution in America. So he went to LA and he called up the LAPD They found in his apartment they found a visitor pass for the LAPD headquarters And they found he had gone on a ride along with some officers downtown
01:30:08
And on that ride along, he asked them where the sex workers, where the prostitutes work and are.
01:30:13
And they drove him by the spot where they all stood around. So they basically pointed out his targets.
01:30:22
Oh, my God. And that article was published in an Austrian magazine in December of 1991.
01:30:27
So he actually really was a columnist, but he was reporting on the murders he was doing.
01:30:33
Can we please get an original copy of that article? You want it in German? Oh, no, I guess not.
01:30:42
Yes. I thought that's what you meant. Like, can we just see it as it was written?
01:30:46
You know what? Yes, I'm going to go. Okay. Yes. We'll go all the way there. I'm going there.
01:30:50
He also stayed at the Cecil Hotel. That's where he was staying the whole time. I just scared the shit out of Mimi because I...
01:30:57
Oh my God, the Cecil. Yes. Our good friend, the Cecil. The Cecil Hotel where everything bad happens.
01:31:03
Elise Lamb. Where Elisa Lamb was found dead in the water tank, but also Richard Ramirez stayed there
01:31:08
while he was doing a little killing in Los Angeles. It's so hilariously terrible.
01:31:14
Yeah. But it is right down there in the worst of... Yes. The worst things that are happening in Los Angeles.
01:31:20
The Cecil Hotel is like centrally located. I love they're trying to rebrand themselves by calling themselves like.
01:31:27
Stay on Main. Stay on Main. Yeah. No, honey. But the funniest thing is that sign is still up.
01:31:31
It says Hotel Cecil. It reads Hotel Cecil down like that. And the like vintage painting on the side that says Cecil Hotel or whatever.
01:31:40
They can't. I think they can't change those. I mean, that's my guess because we just drove by there the other night and we looked at it and that's all still up.
01:31:49
Yes or no. we do a special episode from a room in the Sisa Hotel. The one Lisa Lamb stayed in or Richard Amir stayed in or this guy stayed in.
01:31:57
A hundred percent. Yes. Steven, can you write that down? Steven ideas. And then we write in the dark German articles for Austrian magazines.
01:32:09
Send them over. We just do Google translate and send them over. Yeah. But I want it in my hand, like paper.
01:32:15
Okay, good. Great. We know what you want, Georgia. let's move on well okay so he so they put all of it together and they put all of it it's
01:32:27
circumstantial evidence but they're putting all of it together and there's that there's that guy
01:32:30
that you see in every special that was in the i i watched um oh shit i've done it again i didn't
01:32:35
quote this at the top but i got all of this from the biography channel but this is different it's
01:32:41
all it's all different information from a place and then you put it in several places your story
01:32:47
me too i mean you're gonna fucking make it up you know this is all from the internet yeah the
01:32:52
biography channel uh is the first special i watched on this and it's that thing in the it
01:32:58
reminded me when it when the title comes up it starts biography channel so you're just watching
01:33:03
and then it's jack unterweger and i remembered normally watching like when the biography channel
01:33:10
specials would come up i'd be like sitting there and then it'd be like reba mcintyre and you'd be
01:33:15
like i don't want to watch this but then it's like if one of those came up in real time naturally
01:33:20
it was the most exciting thing in the world yes when it was before specialized true crime television
01:33:26
was really as popular as it is now and before dvr so you kind of didn't know what was going to be on
01:33:30
yes you just kind of like catch it catch you had to be there listen so he he goes underweger goes
01:33:38
on the lam with his 18 year old girlfriend they end up in miami um no i'm kidding miami uh
01:33:44
do a show there now and he also he starts calling into the radio station that he used to work for
01:33:51
explaining to them that he's innocent he's being framed by the cops um you know he's just the most
01:33:58
you know it he looks bad because of that old murder but blah blah blah he's like calling in
01:34:03
and trying to make a case for himself and there actually are people that are on his side because
01:34:09
Because they've bought into the celebrity of him so hard that they can't turn around now.
01:34:14
Sure, they can't admit that, oopsie. Yeah. Because then you're also kind of responsible for those women getting murdered in a weird roundabout way.
01:34:22
Well, yeah, there's definitely guilt. Yeah. There's definitely guilt. Not that you are, but you would think you are.
01:34:27
Yeah, you'd feel fucking terrible for that. Yes. So this guy from the FBI helps Vienna develop what they call a crime signature.
01:34:37
And his crime signature is murdering strangulation with ligature made of clothing tied with complex slipknot.
01:34:48
And so they go to trial. Oh, when he gets arrested, he gets put in jail. He slits his wrists.
01:34:58
And there's even more support for him and more empathy for him. So he finally goes to trial.
01:35:04
Ding-dongs. And it's two months later after his arrest. And his defense is, why would I kill women?
01:35:11
I have a very healthy sex life. I've slept with over 150 women, which is exactly the number that Alex Jones said when he was talking about how many women he slept with.
01:35:21
Really? Which I think is kind of funny. 150 is like just ridiculous enough. Yeah.
01:35:28
And as if one has anything to do with the other. I love women. Why would I kill women?
01:35:33
Right. We know I don't need to have sex. Yes. Right. I don't need to sexually assault one women. They give it to me.
01:35:39
Yeah. Oh yeah. That's all it is about is sexual gratification. Right. No, no, no.
01:35:44
You fucking lunatic. So, uh, up until they say up until kind of like this turning point, he did have those supporters
01:35:54
weren't relenting until the guy from the FBI came and pointed out the crime signature and they
01:36:00
had all these pieces of clothing from all the murders, and he just held them up one after the other
01:36:04
and was like, complex slipknot, complex slipknot on every single one. And that's when the room turned,
01:36:11
and it all went different for him. He was convicted of nine of 11 murders of sex workers in L.A., L.A., Prague, and Vienna.
01:36:25
And in June of 1994, he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.
01:36:30
And that night he committed suicide in jail. And the interesting thing is that he hung himself with shoelaces and the band, the rope band from his sweatpants.
01:36:43
And he used a complex slipknot to tie it. Uh-huh. Oh, I was holding my breath for that one.
01:36:50
Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. They also matched the red fibers on Heidi. Oh, right. Matched the scarf that they got out of his apartment.
01:36:58
Right. Like everything was adding up, but it's all circumstantial, circumstantial, circumstantial.
01:37:03
So when they, that's why LA didn't try to prosecute is because there was nothing.
01:37:08
They were like, you've got nine murders or eight murders over there. We're not going to be able to get him because everything over here is circumstantial and
01:37:17
not, there's nothing solid. It's all just like basically these three horrible murders that match exactly while he was there
01:37:24
and visiting. And his MO. Yeah. Fuck, man. how have I never fucking heard of him
01:37:30
it's such a fascinating case there's way more to read but like the idea that while
01:37:34
he was murdering sex workers and then writing columns about the murderer and the murders and asking people how they
01:37:42
felt and he was writing about like acknowledging and writing about the murder yes
01:37:47
he was basically investigating his own crime it's amazing and oh that was the thing that
01:37:55
stupid. I was trying to find this, but, um, one of the experts, uh, talking about him said the,
01:38:02
the thing about, um, the psychopaths, the kind of psychopath that he is, is you stop focusing on
01:38:09
what they do and they make you focus on them. And that's how that like, it's cult of personality.
01:38:15
So, so when he was in jail, the, the fact that he had strangled a young woman faded away and it all
01:38:24
became about me and my life and how hard it's been for me and read my autobiography. And this
01:38:28
is so sad. He never said like, I made a mistake and killed this thing. It was like, don't even
01:38:33
point that out. No, he, it was all about him. And then, and he was, he was smart enough and
01:38:41
manipulative enough to play the part of the person they were looking for, you know, to really
01:38:47
kind of like be the face of and spearhead this re-socialization plan. He was just like, I'm going
01:38:53
to be that guy. Do you think that when, you know, when, um, when people get convicted of murder and
01:38:59
then they get to read a letter to the judge or to the family and they just talk about themselves,
01:39:03
that's the same kind of thing instead of like apologizing to the family or saying I made a
01:39:09
mistake or whatever. And then just like, I had a hard childhood. I was, that's the same thing.
01:39:14
Wow. I've always, cause it's pissed me off whenever I hear those. No. Yeah. That's the,
01:39:17
because it's the narcissist it's um is it i some you know a bunch of those traits go across the
01:39:26
board and like if you're this you're this you're this but it's like narcissism for sure but then
01:39:29
also um the psychopaths where it's just like it's their world and everyone is just an ant in that
01:39:36
world and they get to do what they want and everything is to power everything is to you
01:39:41
know what i mean like it's to feed their ego and things are done to them and like they have unfair
01:39:46
things are unfair to them and yeah and if and if they're like i don't even want to talk like when
01:39:52
he was finally arrested they tried to get him to talk about the 1974 murder and he was like i have
01:39:57
no memory i don't know what you're talking about and just like it's as if in his mind since he
01:40:02
doesn't acknowledge it it didn't happen wow i always wish there was a way to get them to like
01:40:07
fucking feel bad about it you know yeah but that's the uh there's no such thing that's they
01:40:14
don't have a conscience that's me thinking they can be rehabilitated which they can't it's you
01:40:18
thinking they're like you yes it's that and actually that's part of the fascination of all
01:40:24
of this shit is there's these people that are built totally differently or because of their
01:40:28
circumstances of how they were raised which is like alcoholic grandfather who did these things
01:40:33
it's like there's no way your brain can then go to where you and i are and steven and hopefully and
01:40:40
But also I think you have to have that because lots of people get beaten up by horrible grandfathers and all that stuff you have then it that extra piece of being a sociopath or
01:40:52
being a psychopath where it turns because this guy was just like on fire with the lord since
01:40:59
fucking day one where he's like 16 assaults yeah out of you know when he's like in his teens and
01:41:05
and early 20s, he had huge problems from jump and never stopped doing it. Yeah. And then just tricked everybody in this insane way.
01:41:15
Because you know he was getting off on the idea of like, I'm going to go interview the head of this investigation
01:41:20
and ask them if they have any idea who's doing this. And the answer is no. And he gets to get that quote.
01:41:26
None of them were like, that's weird that he's putting himself, because that's one of the things is that murderers put themselves
01:41:32
in the middle of the investigation or just a little too interested in it. But I guess they didn't know that then.
01:41:38
They didn't know it. It's so funny, too, because it's not that long ago. It's the 90s, but it's still police procedurally.
01:41:45
It's long ago. Well, that explains to me a thing that I haven't really ever understood,
01:41:51
which is why Ann Rule never suspected or even took a while after Ted Bundy was arrested
01:41:58
to be like, yeah, that was him. So she was under that same fucking spell. Yes. It's like, I never understood. It was like, how did you fucking not know?
01:42:07
Because you know, haven't you ever met a person like that? Like I've definitely met
01:42:10
one person in particular where the charisma is such, they make you think that they think you're
01:42:17
the only person in the world. And that most people never get that unless you're like exceedingly
01:42:24
beautiful or special in some way. Or it's this actual specific relationship you're having.
01:42:28
that's because of the two of you. Right. Because Vince makes me feel that way and I don't want to make him feel that way.
01:42:34
Well, that's because you make him feel that way too. Right. But when you meet those people,
01:42:41
in my opinion, I think a lot of love at first sight is like the first time you meet a sociopath
01:42:47
because they know how to manipulate you and they have their reasons for it. Even if it doesn't make sense to you
01:42:55
or in your mind, it's like, why would he do that? we had this magical thing and it's like trying to get what are you getting out of this nothing
01:43:02
well having young women be in love with you everywhere you go you know is part of it yeah
01:43:07
because we don't need that so we don't understand why other people would need that too right or you
01:43:12
if you need it you can then go yeah but that would be mean to do to a person who i didn't love back
01:43:16
like you can bring an actual you know um conscience into it i saw a relationship like that of two
01:43:25
people I know and it was like everyone was like how the fuck do you not see this person doesn't
01:43:32
think like you yeah and it's like so surprising to see that from a smart person not understanding
01:43:38
these like really obvious to everyone else don't you think smart people are almost more susceptible
01:43:43
because it's like I never think I'm gonna fall for anything yeah and they're almost more like
01:43:48
they can intellectualize away away these things because they're not just ding-dongs going along
01:43:57
with it they're like well I'm really smart so I would clearly know this well and also I think
01:44:01
that brain-based people ignore their gut more oh yeah so it's like I've met plenty of people who
01:44:08
aren't say book smart which I also didn't mean to just say I'm so smart because I'm true I've
01:44:12
proven here time and again that I'm not listen if this is your first episode you know that we don't
01:44:17
even have to say that please know this but you there are people who don't get bogged down in
01:44:23
thinking and just go ill give goodbye this feels awful for whatever reason whereas if you're a big
01:44:28
thinker and a big analyzer then it's like you know this never happens and this is I'm I'm magically
01:44:35
being chosen by this amazing magical person who is so charismatic and so you know what I mean like
01:44:42
does a thing that you're like, what, this doesn't happen. This is uncommon. Well, I want to say it's also because of self-esteem. No, no, no. I was going to say
01:44:50
it's also because you and I have been through a lot of experiences where that has happened to us.
01:44:53
And we have, you know, since we were very young and went through some shit, but it's also,
01:44:58
so we're like skeptical and thinking that way. But also when that happened to me,
01:45:02
when I was younger, I had really low self-esteem. So, you know, it's not just that I didn't know,
01:45:07
it's that, that they were like that or what people were like. It's that I, when someone
01:45:12
treats you that it's almost like they find that people with low self-esteem and they know they
01:45:15
can see you at a bar that you are that person. And the moment they say a word to you, they can
01:45:21
tell if you are or not. That's right. That's exactly right. Because you know, it's funny.
01:45:25
The person I'm thinking of that I had this experience with where I was like, if the things I was thinking that it was and the reality of what it was I learned terribly about a year later when I watched him do the exact same thing to my friend who does not
01:45:40
have low self-esteem. When I introduced them, I was standing there and I watched the look.
01:45:44
It was like watching a look come over. It was like watching a predator, like, you know, like, like a thing change colors to fit
01:45:53
the environment. Yes. And when I saw the look on his face and my heart just dropped of like, oh no, that's,
01:45:59
it wasn't love at first sight. That's the thing he does to everybody. My friend was just like, hey, what's like, nice to meet you.
01:46:05
And moved on. Didn't give a shit. And I was just like, oh man, this is all so awful.
01:46:11
Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think it can happen to us again. Or, and if it does, we'll be more aware of it and, you know, listen to our fucking friends.
01:46:19
It'll never happen again because I'm an emotional lighthouse on the very tip of Maine.
01:46:25
And I'll be there forever. Goodbye. Well, at least you're going to have lighthouse cats.
01:46:32
That's fun. That's really the only positive I can think of that. At least you always get free clam chowder at a lighthouse.
01:46:38
Oh my God. With the oyster crackers on top of it. And the big sweater and I'll play the cello.
01:46:42
Oh my God. This is going to be great for me. Mimi, go live with Karen in her lighthouse.
01:46:47
I should get Mimi. I'm her number one fan. All right. Anyway, that's... That's the story.
01:46:54
That's how it is. And we're sticking to a tease and eyes. Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates?
01:47:05
No updates. This is an old case. Yeah. It's been around for a long time. It was featured on the Peacock show, The World's Most Notorious Killers.
01:47:14
and they called Unterweger the first transatlantic serial killer. Wow. But, you know, that feels to me like they're just trying to milk it.
01:47:22
Yeah. You know. Headline. Yeah. Stuff. All right. Well, speaking of headlines, let's get back to 2017 and listen to our good things of the week.
01:47:33
Hey, what happened this week that you're happy or like, you know, what do you like?
01:47:37
Oh, you know what I'll tell you I like? And it is it is another present. but because we do get tons of presents we do thank you for all your presents it we love them
01:47:49
we do we talk about them a lot and then did you see the thing that someone gave us that's this
01:47:53
thing like we really fucking lose our minds we really do it so we did get a present last week
01:48:00
and it was from another person that i know from twitter andrew and he tried to send this thing
01:48:05
twice i'm sorry i don't pick up my p.o box enough and i think they fucking hate me there too
01:48:09
because you get so much stuff now yes they fucking hate me lots of presents Well he sent us
01:48:15
He's a woodworker And we got These gorgeous pens In hand carved Pen holders Pen boxes
01:48:26
Whatever they were And then he carved Stephen A mustache for his I mean a comb for his mustache
01:48:33
A giant wooden comb for his mustache Stephen have you been using it? I mean every day
01:48:38
My mustache I feel like It does look good It looks good I gotta, you know, keep it for, keep it tight. Yeah, that's right. That's part of your persona
01:48:46
now. High and tight. Um, so Andrew, it's Andrew Hess that I know from Twitter and he's a great
01:48:52
woodworker and thank you so much for sending those. And we finally got them and we were blown away,
01:48:57
blown away by them. It was so thoughtful. Yeah. Um, I was always trying to think of things that
01:49:02
make me happy or things that I loved. And, um, so we, I just put up this hummingbird feeder
01:49:06
right outside and like I love hummingbirds and there's been like fucking it's been like a swarm
01:49:12
of hummingbirds and every time I see one I yell even if I'm alone hummingbird like I just can't
01:49:18
not yell hummingbird even though they're like it's like every 10 minutes but the thing I love is that
01:49:23
it made me realize that they're fucking assholes to each other hummingbirds are yeah they're really
01:49:27
aggressive and territorial and they keep fighting against it and it made me so happy because it's
01:49:32
like everyone's like hummingbirds are so beautiful and they get tattoos of them and like they love
01:49:38
them and it's like well they can be fucking dicks too and it's just this like positive light of to
01:49:43
me of like don't don't compare yourself don't don't put yourself up to standards of hummingbirds
01:49:50
no because they're actually assholes yeah and they're and they're sugar freaks they're they're
01:49:55
addicted to sugar and they just got to get theirs just like everybody else they are mean to each
01:50:01
other. It's very funny. It's funny because I face the sliding glass door where the hummingbird
01:50:06
feeders are. And so the whole time, especially today, I can see them and there's a lot. It's
01:50:13
like three at a time every four minutes Seriously So it really hard to concentrate Like every I keep wanting to go oh look That exactly it And it so yeah it so distracting but it this peaceful thing of staring at a hummingbird is so nice
01:50:27
But then they fucking dive bomb each other and chirp, like yell at each other. And then you hear their wings are this zzzz.
01:50:34
Like, it's just really fun. They're cool. Yeah. They're super cool. There's actually a video my friend sent me once.
01:50:40
There's a guy who put a GoPro on his face and then put a hummingbird feeder like near under the GoPro so that it was basically hummingbirds flying up to his face.
01:50:50
Oh my God. Drinking their stuff. But so he could get these first person view. Like slow mo.
01:50:55
Of hummingbirds. It's the best videos. People are the best. Hummingbirds are fucking dicks.
01:50:59
So don't worry about your life. Right. People are the best. Yeah. Especially when they have a GoPro strapped.
01:51:06
Listen, what we're trying to teach you. is might be unclear now but it's going to become clear very soon within the next 10 years
01:51:15
it'll be so obvious then you'll be like oh my god they were right and now they live on a tiny
01:51:21
island in maine and we can't tell them clam chowder town i'm the mayor of clam chowder town
01:51:26
mimi is the mascot and you guys are the listeners and you're the ocean thank you guys for being our
01:51:34
ocean our waves our everything yeah our sea you guys go deeper than we ever believed possible
01:51:39
thank you for being the monster underneath the rock deep down in the sea yeah that's gonna save
01:51:44
us from uh the end of the world that changes colors to match the environment you guys are
01:51:48
always evolving with us that's right you're the cuttlefish of this podcast and we appreciate it
01:51:53
we want to cuddle with you okay we are back i mean us saying that it might be unclear what
01:52:02
we're teaching people, but it'll be clear in 10 years. We've got about a year to figure it out.
01:52:08
Shit. Yeah. Shit. I know. And I want to stand by the fact that hummingbirds are assholes. Fucking all these years later,
01:52:15
I'm still trying to get them to come to my hummingbird feeder. I get the good sugar and
01:52:20
the good water. I use fucking, what's it called? Water. Agave? Whatever. Agave. Hippie water?
01:52:26
I use good water and good sugar to try to get those little fuckers to be my friend.
01:52:30
And they say, no, thank you. They say yes, and then they fight each other over it.
01:52:33
Oh, yeah. It's just kind of cute. A lot of energy. All right. So this episode was originally titled The Devil's Number, but it's not.
01:52:41
So if we were naming it today, maybe we would call it... Its own face, which is one we were talking about.
01:52:46
We went off on a cookie tangent. What a Florentine cookie looks like. And then we could also call it Nothing I Can't Change.
01:52:56
Don't show me nothing I can't change. Oh, my God, J-Lo. I love you. Then there's also, of course, this is the episode where I talked about being an emotional lighthouse.
01:53:05
That's the one. Yeah. I think everyone loved that so much. And I think people relate.
01:53:09
Absolutely. Yeah. To this day. To this very moment. So thanks, you guys, for listening to another episode of Rewind.
01:53:16
And we're going to go back to 2017 and let Elvis say goodbye. He's kind of unprofessional this time, but...
01:53:22
Not a surprise. We're going to let him do it anyways. He's a diva. We love him for it.
01:53:29
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Bye. Bye. Elvis, get your ass out here.
01:53:37
He's keeping Vince company in the business. Elvis. Elvis. Elvis. Do you want a cookie?
01:53:45
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