00:00:00
This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.
00:00:33
Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. If audiobooks are your thing, or if you've been meaning to listen to more of them,
00:00:40
you should check out a podcast called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn.
00:00:46
Each episode spotlights standout audiobooks on Audible across all kinds of genres.
00:00:51
Sci-fi, comedy, romance, thrillers, and more. With Cal talking to guests who help break down what makes each story worth listening to.
00:00:57
It's a fun, easy way to discover your next great audiobook. Check out Earsay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:06
Goodbye! Where does summer take you? Maybe it's a coastal road trip or a quiet morning with the windows wide open.
00:01:12
Summer smells like bright citrus, warm sand, and endless possibilities. With Pura's smart diffusers and the new summer collection,
00:01:19
you can restore your sense of place and bring those unforgettable moments right into your living room.
00:01:24
Find your summer escape today. Visit Pura.com to learn more. Goodbye. Hello. And welcome.
00:01:46
To Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right. Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows and we give you new commentary and updates and insights.
00:01:53
Today, we're recapping episode 78, which we named the freshest recording. Yeah, it really is.
00:01:59
This episode came out on July 20th, 2017. So let's get into it. Let's listen to the intro of episode 78.
00:02:08
The beeping. Should I go tell the beeping to stop? You don't hear that? There's no beeping, Georgia.
00:02:16
And we've started. And breakdown. And Georgia hears beeping. Do you hear that sound of a baby crying?
00:02:23
This is not an ad for a new beeper. For a new brain. We're bringing back beepers.
00:02:30
Beepers. Are you a doctor or a drug dealer? Or do you play one on TV? Then you need a beeper.
00:02:37
Or are you having an affair and you need a way for an affair person to contact you?
00:02:42
What was the affair? What was the thing of like some kind of a 411 but for hookups?
00:02:47
No. Yeah. It was like... I guess I didn't hook up when I had a beeper. Oh, I did all the time.
00:02:53
No. When I was an emergency room intern. No, never. Oh. Of course not. You're serious.
00:03:01
I'm super blackout, drunk in a bar, and then I hold up my beeper. Guys, I've got to go.
00:03:05
My sugar daddy's calling me. One of my... Hey, welcome to my favorite murder. Hi.
00:03:10
Welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff.
00:03:14
We're here to read to you and tell to you true crime stories from all around the nation and world.
00:03:21
And more. And then some. And then more. And then after that, half a teaspoon more.
00:03:28
It's the morning. We've never recorded in the morning before. This is so weird. I had to stay at work late last night.
00:03:34
Everybody got to adjust to my needs. So we were supposed to record last night. I called and said, I'm still at work.
00:03:41
Then Georgia, you've actually been into this idea for a while. I feel like you've been very morning positive about, right?
00:03:48
It just feels fun and fresh and like different. You know what I mean? like recording in a different place. It feels like a field trip without going anywhere.
00:03:56
Yes. Um, school is new again for us. Yeah. And now I can really learn. And it lets me drink
00:04:02
whiskey in the morning. Finally. Cause I can't do this podcast without whiskey. That's not true. That's not true. But let me just, I just need to put this out here.
00:04:10
If you or any of your friends are drinking whiskey in the morning, that was, uh, the end stage for me right before I was hospitalized. I know you're joking.
00:04:21
I meant that. I was legitimately curious. If it's after 1130, you're in the clear.
00:04:28
Yeah. I always am like, can I? No. If it's not on a weekend and it's not brunch, although this is like, well, what's weird is that this is going to come out later today.
00:04:37
So everyone listening on Thursday, this is this morning. Are you fucking dee-doo-da-doe-doo-da?
00:04:43
Oh, yeah. Same day. Yeah. Same first time, same day. This is the freshest recording we've ever released.
00:04:47
And it's not your fault. I was out of town on Tuesday and Monday, so we couldn't record.
00:04:51
like we usually do. Oh, thank you. Georgia, that means a lot to me. I wouldn't put it on you at all.
00:04:57
Cause yeah, that's very nice of you to mention. Um, I didn't even realize that Georgia's, how
00:05:05
was that trip by the way to tell the people what you were doing? I fucking had this
00:05:09
crazy experience. Oxygen, uh, had, they were going to have us instead. It was just me available
00:05:17
and I was like, fuck yeah. Hell yeah. Oxygen is turning into True Crime Network.
00:05:21
This is not a plug. They didn't pay me to do this or anything like that. She's just trying to tell her story.
00:05:26
I really had an incredible time. So they have this special called... The Jury Speaks.
00:05:32
The Jury. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm your stage mother. I'm very early and I've only had bullet coffee.
00:05:38
You've only had two shots of whiskey. Yeah. So far. So The Jury Speaks. And so I did this panel for press where I interviewed four of the jury members who were on these
00:05:48
high profile cases where they were really fucking controversial and kind of ruined these
00:05:54
jurors lives for a while because instead of blaming the justice system that let George Zimmerman go they blamed the juries for voting the way that they were told to vote which
00:06:05
is if you have a reasonable doubt. And then it asks the question, like, with everything you know now, would you vote differently?
00:06:11
And these people were so, they were just normal people who were very affected by these trials,
00:06:17
by what happened to them afterwards. How could you not be? This one woman who was on the George Zimmerman trial was just such a, she just was so emotionally raw and wonderful.
00:06:27
And I really, really, she really touched me. It sounds like it's going to be a good show.
00:06:32
I would love to watch that. I watched it. It's, I, you know, you're like, I'm so sick of the OJ Simpson trial.
00:06:37
I've seen every fucking thing about it. Well, this is from the jury's perspective.
00:06:41
It's all interview. Which you've never seen anything of. And they explain why they voted the way they voted, which everyone's like, you fucking, fuck you.
00:06:48
you know, it's the Michael Jackson case. It's really cool. I feel like people were fuck you
00:06:53
in the nineties. And now, especially because of those two things that came out recently,
00:06:57
everyone's like, Oh yeah, I get it. I'm starting to get it as like a white American. I'm starting
00:07:03
to understand what all the things I didn't know and never opened my eyes to before were about.
00:07:09
Yeah. And how unfair it is. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really interesting. So that's what I was
00:07:14
That's great. And it was fun. I bet. Yeah. Did you get your hair did? I got my nails and toes did.
00:07:20
Oh, but like, what about, were you in that makeup chair? I'm saying that's my favorite part of anything.
00:07:24
No, for this, it wasn't, it wasn't recorded, unfortunately, because I, the first time in
00:07:29
my life, um, headed the panel. Oh, it was like a live panel. It was a panel for press.
00:07:36
And so there was like 50, 60 people in the room that were press. And I was like, so when you got sequestered and asking, and then the person who made the show is Nancy Glass, who remember was the Inside Edition blonde woman.
00:07:53
Nancy Glass. Yeah. And she's a fucking badass. And she was on the panel and she's just been, she's won Emmys.
00:07:58
She's just an incredible broadcaster. So it's so weird to be sitting there interviewing her.
00:08:02
Wow. And I'm like, you should be. She was incredible. And so she made it. It's just, it's great.
00:08:07
That's so cool. Yeah. I had a really good time. Does that mean she picked you to be the person?
00:08:12
I don't know. I don't think so, but she pretended to know who I am. I was honored.
00:08:17
I took a photo with her. It was just really exciting. Yeah, she's just this longtime true crime investigative journalist host, and I was just honored to be there.
00:08:28
That's awesome. Thank you. First class? First class on the way there. Oh, shit. On my dime.
00:08:34
I didn't. They didn't. Yeah. I love it. How about you? Who, me? Oh, I'm just sitting in a office for 11 hours a day talking about what fictional characters may or may not do in their lives and why.
00:08:49
And if it could be symbolic or meaningful in any way to other people. And it's just conversation after conversation.
00:08:56
And by the time I leave, I don't want to speak and look at anybody else. I've eaten so much Trader Joe's snack food.
00:09:06
Yeah, I have it really. rough. But first class? First class all the way, baby. Um, the one thing I did want to mention,
00:09:14
we've gotten tons of tweets about is the fact that they ID'd, um, a, an unknown victim of John
00:09:22
Wayne Gacy. Totally. Cook County, uh, sheriff just made this announcement. And of course we got
00:09:27
1000 tweets about it, which I love. The funniest thing is now all the tweets are, did you already
00:09:32
get this? Yeah. And it's like, I know you already saw this, but just in case, which is sweet. Thank
00:09:37
you mommy. Yeah. Um, so just really quick, if you haven't read any of the articles, which you
00:09:42
probably came out today, so I'm glad we're recording today. Yeah. Uh, so they said, so
00:09:49
there's eight unidentified victims. And at the time, um, when they found these bodies, it was 1976.
00:09:55
Uh, no, sorry. It was 1978 that they found the bodies, I believe. Right. I don't have the 78 or
00:10:01
79. Yeah. Um, but, uh, so eight were unidentified and they couldn't do anything about it because
00:10:07
they didn't, they of course obviously didn't have the forensics that we have today and they kept
00:10:13
jaw bones, but they, so that if people came forward with dental records, so creepy. Yeah.
00:10:19
But back then, like it was dental wasn't a thing that it is today, which is like,
00:10:23
you take your kids immediately. You, so not everyone had dental records back then.
00:10:27
That's exactly right. And that's, so this identified victim, Jimmy Hawkinson, he was 16 years old when he was murdered by John Wayne Gacy. And his mother actually went to Chicago in 1979 to try to find out if her missing son was one of the victims, but because she didn't have dental records, they couldn't tell her anything. They, there had no way of knowing anything, but they've continued, uh, to test these, these, um, the, you know, evidence.
00:10:55
Unidentified remains. Yeah, the remains that they have. And the cool thing is, so it's 39 years later,
00:11:02
and Hawkinson's nephew sees that they're still testing remains. So he encourages his, I believe it was his aunt and his father
00:11:12
to go give the DNA so they could test it. You know he's a fucking murderino. He's just like, I'm going to track my uncle down.
00:11:20
Well, wouldn't you be so fascinated if you had a missing uncle who suspect was suspected to have been at 16. Yeah. You and I would be, I think most people
00:11:28
listening would be like, I'm going to track this down. But some people would be like, this is too
00:11:31
hard for my family that they don't want to talk about it. Yeah. It's, and it's also when it's just
00:11:36
a missing child, that's just like, that's, I mean, it's so sad. They just no answer. You almost,
00:11:44
do you want an answer? Cause then it's like, it's, it's a period on the sentence that like,
00:11:50
maybe he'll walk through the door someday or maybe, you know, not really wanting to know that it over and that this monster John Wayne Gacy is the reason And like his mom let him move to Chicago to like start a new life And then they said right that he called her
00:12:06
on August 5th. I just read it this morning. Yeah. When he got there. When he got there.
00:12:11
And they think maybe the same day he got captured, right? Well, that was all I read was that was the last she ever heard of him. So it was like
00:12:18
very soon after. I love the way that he really underlined the fact that his family loved him.
00:12:23
his family had been searching for him this was not you know it's that thing they always do
00:12:28
not always do but sometimes do the story with victims which is the hitchhiker who didn't
00:12:35
care about their life the runaway who it doesn't matter what happened to them anyway the sex worker who
00:12:41
I mean who really cares is just another victim or it's like he really was underlining
00:12:45
this is a family who missed their child their 16 year old boy for 39 years I hope I didn't sound like when I said
00:12:53
that they didn't want to know that. I don't know if that's true or not, but no, you're
00:12:57
just saying that's a possibility for some people probably then the grief, then you have
00:13:02
to like, then that's a whole new grieving process. And you've learned how to compartmentalize
00:13:06
this. Anyways, I don't know. I've never, I've never lost someone like that. So yeah, I'm
00:13:10
just speculating. Yeah. That's all this show is. This podcast is speculation. It's speculation.
00:13:16
I like to lie out. What was the quote or the like saying you call it or someone called it?
00:13:24
The vague postulating? That was vague postulating. Something like serious vague postulating.
00:13:29
Yeah. That's what I'm all about. We're just talking about it. Sincere vague postulating.
00:13:33
Something. Well, that's fucked up and I'm glad. And then the creepiest part to me was that they could tell when it happened based on this
00:13:42
like stacking of the bodies. Oh, right. like what number victim he was. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:47
I'm sorry. Can you hold on one second? There's somebody they're trying to break in or clean.
00:13:51
Probably clean. But why would they, or the kittens doing something, which I don't think she is.
00:14:00
Sounds like cleaning. I don't think they do that. Ever? No. Look at that fucking disgusting window.
00:14:07
Why would you, yeah, but how do you get up there? Maybe, maybe there's something going up the side of the building.
00:14:12
All right. Keep this in because someone's trying to break into my fucking house right now.
00:14:16
I don't see anybody. Okay, they left. They gave up. And then we hear a smash. It turns out it was a hummingbird.
00:14:23
Crashed into the window. That hummingbird's trying to kill me. That's what my brain goes to immediately.
00:14:28
Yeah, so they stack the bodies. And that's, he stacked them by, like, when he got them,
00:14:33
he just, like, buried them on top of each other. So they could be, like, he died at this time or this year
00:14:38
because we know the body underneath him went away, like disappeared on this day.
00:14:43
And the one on top of him disappeared on this day. So yeah, they can get, it's not creepy.
00:14:47
The visual of that makes me so sad for these kids. The visual of that is what like sparked my, what the hell is going on in this actual world?
00:14:59
That's exactly it. Yeah. With the bearing of the bodies. It was the diagram. A diagram of where the bodies were buried in the house.
00:15:06
And to me, to my child's mind, I thought he'd buried them in the wall. It didn't make sense to me that it was underneath.
00:15:13
So I was just like, cause I knew my parents were telling me stuff. Cause my parents would always be like, we'll tell you later.
00:15:19
We'll tell you when you're older. Which nothing makes you want to know more. I mean, then they tell you that for real.
00:15:24
And so that was one of the ones anyway, it's, it makes me happy that they're still working
00:15:29
the way they are for this, that there's something about that. That's very heartening to me.
00:15:38
Can we go back to, you never gave me an answer, what time drinking whiskey means you're about to Karen out
00:15:46
and have to go to the hospital. Let's not call it Karen. I'm sorry. Steven, take that out.
00:15:52
No, you don't. You know what it is? It's not time of day. It's that you think you need it.
00:15:58
Why? And you think it's okay. When it's not a choice. because it moves to a point where it's not a choice anymore,
00:16:05
especially when you're at that point. I was only drinking whiskey only. So my friends would, we'd meet at a bar.
00:16:10
People would get a round of beers. I would have a shot of Jameson's. I would be done before everybody.
00:16:17
Of course, mine was smaller. And then I would keep on having shots of whiskey until I was trying to kick the bouncer in the shins for no reason.
00:16:25
Party central. Party Karen. Party times. Anyways. All right. So 11 o'clock. Right around 1115.
00:16:35
If at that point, I remember taking a bottle of Jameson's off the top of my refrigerator.
00:16:41
The second I woke up in the morning, like it was coffee. And as I drank it, like just took a swig of it thinking this is very bad.
00:16:48
Oh, you knew then. Yeah. But you were like, well, I'll stop soon. I'll stop doing this.
00:16:53
But today is not the day. No, I know. You know what it was? I knew it was bad and I knew I should stop.
00:16:57
But I also knew I could not stop. I knew that. How scary. It was horrible. I'm sorry.
00:17:04
Thank you. Congratulations. Because you fucking did it. And you did it well. I did too.
00:17:08
You did. I'm so impressed that you did that. Thank you. As someone who drinks. I mean, look, I highly recommend seizures.
00:17:16
They're very, they are upsetting. They're mysterious. I tried one at like 12. I gave it a shot at 12.
00:17:22
It wasn't for me. No, I mean, they're not for everybody. I really had a seizure at 12.
00:17:27
For what? I don't know. My brother. Yeah, I think so. My brother and I have both had one seizure like around that age and then never again.
00:17:35
It might have been your brain growth spurt because kids have them when they're seven.
00:17:40
They have them when they're babies if they have fevers. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes when you're seven, sometimes when you're 14.
00:17:46
Every seven years when your brain grows. And like a hormone release. And I had been working like playing soccer all day.
00:17:52
Probably was dehydrated. And I had it in my this isn interesting I had it in my sleep which isn supposed to actually be a seizure No no That when I have all mine Oh mine That right They are seizures Did I tell you I was sharing this is how young I was sharing a bunk bed with my sister
00:18:06
I started shaking. Thank God we shared a room at the time. She ran into my mom's room and said,
00:18:10
we were really into the Simpsons at the time. And she said, mom, George is having a cow.
00:18:17
I was probably younger. I was probably like 10. Your mom's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Oh, Jesus. And I missed my whole ride in the ambulance. I'm so bummed about that.
00:18:24
Oh, because you were out? Yeah. It's not that great. It's kind of weird. Okay. It's not like fun.
00:18:30
Like you'd think. It's not as fun as you'd think. Stephen Ray Morris keeps giving us presents.
00:18:37
Oh, no. We get him nothing. You just pulled that out of the envelope a little bit and I see VHS.
00:18:43
You see VHS. This must have cost. Stephen, send us an invoice. Here you go. It's your story.
00:18:52
Here you go. Read it to everyone. Echoes in the dark. Joseph Wambaugh's Echoes in the Darkness, everybody.
00:18:57
This is the story. A fucking video cassette he tracked down. It's Peter Coyote, Robert Loggia, Stalker Channing, telling the story of William Bradfield,
00:19:08
Patches, he called him, Dr. J. Smith. Principal, what was his name? I don't remember.
00:19:17
The principal? And then Patches, missing children with the fucking little statue in the forest.
00:19:22
Steven A plus It's such a cool VHS It's such a VHS That I remember from my childhood
00:19:31
I mean it's in perfect condition Somebody really held on to that type Somebody really
00:19:36
Somebody dusted their VHS shelf every day What makes me sad is like what happened to them
00:19:41
That we were able to get this if they saved it that long Either they died and their parents
00:19:45
Or their siblings were like Sell it on eBay, sell all of dad's VHS's Oh, can I go fucking dark all the time?
00:19:52
I can ever go positive. Yeah, because now let's do the therapy. Now there are four other choices that can be happening here.
00:19:58
Karen and I are holding our hand up with five fingers. Every time you think of something that's upsetting that you think is the truth,
00:20:06
something's working on the side of your house. Okay. That sounded like a weird fart.
00:20:12
Didn't it? No, it sounded like a noisemaker. A New Year's Eve. Yeah. Okay. So you hold up.
00:20:20
Okay. Everyone, this is the rule of six? Rule of five. Okay. No, the rule of six.
00:20:24
Sorry. Okay. So number one is the negative thought. So you're like. Someone died and that's why we have the VHS.
00:20:29
Someone died is the only reason we have a VHS. Yeah. Which I kind of enjoy postulating.
00:20:32
Of course. Well, worst case. You always explore the worst case. Yeah. So then the five is like, maybe they had a wonderful life with a wonderful family.
00:20:41
Maybe they're not actually dead. And maybe they were happy to let this move on to someone else.
00:20:45
Steven, tell us the background of you buying this. Did someone send it to you or was like.
00:20:50
Oh, no. I just found it on eBay. But the person sent a letter. Oh, my God. Handwritten.
00:20:55
So they're still alive. And it says, dear customer, please know I upgraded in bold.
00:21:00
At my cost, your VHS ordered a first class mail because I consider you a first class customer.
00:21:06
Aw. And congratulations. Media mail, I consider too slow. I also mailed it in a padded mailer with free delivery confirmation.
00:21:13
I hope you have earned. Wow. I hope I have earned your five star feedback you have.
00:21:17
And if not, please message me on how to improve. thanking you, Karen, with an I.
00:21:22
Yes! Oh my god, Karen! Karen, great job, Karen. Speaking of great job, and this is a present that's not from me,
00:21:30
and then I want to read the letter because this is from Murderino. The letter made me
00:21:34
cry. Nice. But it's really self-serving because it's because of something I said on the podcast. Of course, sure.
00:21:39
Is that okay? I feel like that's... This is podcast. Okay. So, da-da-da-da, Karen Georgia Stevens,
00:21:46
sisters and I are a huge fan, sending you a thing, but I never expected to, but I wanted to share with you a very personal
00:21:52
way in which your approach to the podcast inspired and motivated me. Can I just say one thing?
00:21:56
What? If you're going to read a letter that's like slightly self-congratulatory, you can't skip
00:22:01
through the beginning of their part. But it's long. Da-da-da, you love me, da-da-da.
00:22:06
No. Okay. Well, I'll read it. No, no, no, no. Okay. Well, I was going to read the rest.
00:22:10
So it does look long, actually. In an early-ish episode, Georgia was making a t-shirt corner update.
00:22:16
Karen mentioned how impressed she was. See, this is so dick by Georgia's tenacity and follow through and actually making the shirts a reality.
00:22:24
And because remember, I was like, you don't have to be perfect. Just fucking do things. Yes.
00:22:28
Which is my motto. That's right. Georgia went to express how she just doesn't let the fear of messing up or not being perfect.
00:22:34
Hold her back. She continued to explain the theory that people who make a quality work often don't even start, much less finish making things because they're so hung up on being on perfection and fear of failing.
00:22:43
It was a lightbulb moment This described me I went to school for design Currently work in the design industry
00:22:48
Yet have been terrified of creating personal passion projects For fear that they wouldn't turn out
00:22:52
Quote, perfect Gumption and willingness to start t-shirts on this podcast Despite things not always being perfect
00:22:58
No shit It was so encouraging to me With the mindset of fuck perfection I successfully created a little bit of jewelry for you guys
00:23:06
And all the other murderinos out there Who want one Inside the tiny envelopes I'm passing them to you
00:23:12
and Steven, you get one too, even though it's weird. You will find a solid 14-karat gold
00:23:18
Murderino script necklaces. My first four I ended up making jewelry. I drew the script, figured out how to 3D print
00:23:25
said script from a mold. Now, a casting place made prototypes then lovingly put each one together by hand.
00:23:31
They are all designed and made in New York City. You guys get the first three because you inspired
00:23:35
the whole thing and I want to say thank you. I had a blast. They learned so much.
00:23:38
I'm really proud I made them. Thank you all for pursuing what you love and for being authentic and hilarious to my sisters and I wish you all the best happiness and success.
00:23:45
Stephanie of The Sisters Gamble. The Sisters Gamble. You can get it. It's Etsy, The Sisters Gamble.
00:23:51
G-A-M-B-L-E. P.S. Steven, I don't know if you're into necklaces, but I know you could rock it alongside the stash.
00:23:58
Hell yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Steven, you will look so 1975. Oh, because it's gold.
00:24:04
I mean, I do have chest hair. You have a lot of chest hair. Live, love, laugh. Listen, shave your chest hair into a mustache.
00:24:10
Never mind. Do it. Aren't those beautiful? That's really lovely. And that makes me really happy because that's so true.
00:24:16
Yeah. Just fucking do what you want to do. You'll improve later. It made me really tear up and proud of us.
00:24:23
Yeah. Not just because of us. We said fuck it. Yeah. We did it. It's funny. Those ideas that seem kind of simple for me, they're like just TED talks that I've
00:24:34
watched. It's like, if you go into the Brene Brown vulnerability, TED talk, watch that. And then
00:24:39
there's going to be a bunch of other ones that are like perfection, ruining shit, ruining creativity,
00:24:44
this, that, and the other thing you can like, there's a whole philosophy of life that you can
00:24:48
discover. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Well, that made me so thank you, Stephanie. Thanks. Um,
00:24:55
we got to cut. Let's see. My aunt turned actually turned Richard Speck into the police. Maybe we
00:24:59
can save these for hometowns. I work with Trisha Mele. Oh, wait, that person's aunt
00:25:05
turned Richard Speck into the place. I wonder if it's the girl that went to high school with him that saw him in the
00:25:11
town and country center, that weird fucking mall in Sacramento. Richard Speck was the one who killed all the
00:25:17
nurses in the... Oh, shit. Sorry, I was thinking Richard Chase. Oh, is that right?
00:25:21
Oh, Richard Chase was the creepy Sacramento dude. Chase was the Sacramento vampire
00:25:25
and that's Richard Speck. Yeah. This says Georgia, Karen, Stephen, Mimi, and Elvis, but we should also give a shout out to the person who made you that cross stitch of the dogs.
00:25:37
Oh, that's right. And I want to say right now that Elvis is at the doctor's because we have a new kitten named Dottie, and she got Elvis sick.
00:25:47
And I love this new kitten very much, but if she kills Elvis, I'm going to fucking lose my mind.
00:25:51
How old is Elvis, Georgia? He's about to be 13. He's going to be okay. Okay. I hope my subject line grabbed your attention.
00:26:00
You guys are the best and make my hour-long Chicago commute so much more bearable.
00:26:03
I've gotten countless friends and family members hooked into listening by telling them the Mary Vincent and Sarah Brady stories.
00:26:09
But anyway, on to my aunt's story. My aunt is Kathy O'Connor, and she was a nurse at Cook County Hospital in 1966.
00:26:16
She always talked about this case when I was younger, but I never realized how much of a connection she actually had.
00:26:20
I started reading the book The Crime of the Century, which is about the Richard Specht murders,
00:26:25
and he killed what a bunch of nurses in that nurse. He went into the nurses like dormitory and yeah.
00:26:31
And one woman survived by hiding. And in the chapter where they talk about him trying to kill himself and then getting admitted to the hospital,
00:26:37
I see my aunt's name. Once I saw her name, I immediately went to talk to her and she told me the real scoop.
00:26:42
She was the nurse that treated him when he came to the ER that night. In every report you're going to see,
00:26:47
it says that Leroy Smith was the one who saw his tattoo and alerted the police. But after talking with my aunt this week,
00:26:52
It was actually her that notified that noticed the tattoo on his wrist from a picture in the newspaper.
00:26:57
She then told Leroy and he alerted the police. Fuck yeah, bitch. Yep. And since this was 1966 and my aunt is a woman, she didn't get any of the credit.
00:27:08
Down with the patriarchy. Am I right? Now you guys know the real story. All in all, it's fine because Speck was captured and was sentenced to life in prison, but it's still a pretty crazy story and connection.
00:27:18
Thank you guys for this amazing podcast. it's honestly made me more just i'm just like congratulating myself this whole time it's
00:27:25
honestly made me more aware as a person when i'm out alone next time you guys are in chicago hit
00:27:28
me up and we can do a ghost tour or you can talk to my badass aunt much love stay sexy don't get
00:27:33
murdered mary k everyone in chicago wants to give us a ghost tour i love it it must be a thing well
00:27:38
because they have hh homes they have so many mobs like the mobs all that al capone stuff okay well
00:27:43
listen we're gonna read some others that we got um that's the hometown murder episodes or the
00:27:49
minisodes basically are for those of you who don't listen. So yeah, clearly. Yeah.
00:27:53
We have to do, we have so much catch up email, but I don't, I feel like we don't have time.
00:27:57
Yeah. Because we, um, we also, I think maybe we should do, we should do it next week too.
00:28:02
We have to talk about the R Kelly sex cult. Absocatively. It's crazy because I read the buzz, the Buzzfeed R cult this morning.
00:28:10
It's so much, there's so much detail. Like it'll take us, let's talk about it next week.
00:28:15
Okay. I have like a list of things I've been meaning to talk about, but, um. But that one is especially interesting because what really freaked me out is R. Kelly is touring.
00:28:26
He is, even though he was, so he was acquitted for 14 counts of child porn. He married Leah when she was 14 and he was like 20 something, 30.
00:28:37
And then there was a song called Age is Just a Number. Yeah, which is like, no, that's not true.
00:28:42
But also when you start reading these accounts and the way he's keeping and controlling these women, it's unbelievable.
00:28:51
And he's just and he's like on Fallon and he's like, you know, being in someone's funny video or whatever.
00:28:57
Why are we still OK with these people? Chris Brown, I want to I know it's dated, but I want to call that motherfucker out.
00:29:02
Why does he still have a career after beating the shit out of Rihanna? Rihanna. It's because when you make people money, the people who get paid because of being,
00:29:11
making that money, figure out a way to make it okay. And that's what so much of show business is.
00:29:16
And, and because people haven't had a voice before and what a lot of, like, there was a
00:29:20
reporter at a really tragic quote that was like, this story proves that young black women do not
00:29:26
matter to people in this country. Um, which is really true. And it's a thing that, you know,
00:29:31
we come up against all the time when you're in talking about true crime, this issue of,
00:29:36
of the, the race of the victim and how that story gets treated is a huge problem.
00:29:42
Yeah. And we're learning as we go, but it is, it's nothing that we, you know, like we're just
00:29:48
doing our best, but it is, it's a, it's a problem on this level. It's a problem obviously in the regular media.
00:29:54
It how we the story gets presented where you go well this thing happened but it okay And then everyone goes great It okay Yeah You don you don question your immediate thinking your immediate snap judgment which
00:30:06
I think is what we need to start paying attention to. Like, what's my snap judgment?
00:30:09
And then questioning that. Yes. Cause that's my internal bias. Yeah. That's why you're not ignorant is you think for yourself and, and, and try to keep on
00:30:19
thinking and not shut down, not fight, not fucking absorb. or what is it called? Take on whatever
00:30:25
is being fucking screamed at you. Yeah, just like swallow whatever the story on CNN
00:30:29
is or whatever, but like actually try to, whatever. Anyways. We're all doing our best.
00:30:36
Should we get to the murders? Yeah, I think we should. Okay. There's now a Twitter account that
00:30:41
keeps track of who went first. I swear to God, the first time I saw it, it made me laugh.
00:30:45
Did you make it, Stephen? No. Stephen's like, I'm busy with so much of your other bullshit
00:30:51
that you guys make me do. And I did use it to look up. Oh my God. Nice. Well, we're hiring them
00:30:57
instead of you now. Oh, that's cruel. Who is it? Me? Yeah, it's you. Okay. I go first.
00:31:07
And we're back. And we talked about R. Kelly for way too long. Oh, never again. God.
00:31:13
Please, can we not? Just no. But what's interesting though is that there are new
00:31:18
Gacy victims that have been identified since this recording. Since 2017, using modern DNA and forensic genealogy, additional Gacy victims have been identified, most notably Body 5, confirmed in 2021 as Francis Wayne Alexander.
00:31:34
And as of 2025, five Gacy victims remain unidentified with investigators urging relatives nationwide to submit DNA samples for comparison.
00:31:43
You can't submit DNA if there's nothing to compare it to. Yeah. So it's so important.
00:31:48
Right. There's always progress to be made. It's like as the technology grows, people are like, OK, now we know this.
00:31:54
Now go back and check that. Do we have something in a file? You know, it's like the yogurt shop murders.
00:31:59
It's so funny that this is 2017, which we hadn't even heard of genetic genealogy yet.
00:32:03
Yeah. Like it hadn't started. But are like everyone's hand was on the doorknob. Yeah.
00:32:08
Remember they were just doing the thing where they would be like, this is what the person may have looked like.
00:32:11
That's like genome typing. Oh, yeah. And all they could do is be like, this is a blonde guy.
00:32:16
And it might have looked like this based on his DNA. And now it's like, this is the fucking guy.
00:32:20
This is the guy. I love that. Yeah. Well, should we just get into it? Your story?
00:32:24
Let's do it. All right. Here's Karen's story about Ellen Hallbert. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.
00:32:34
It's 2026. And if you have an alternative career like food photography or professional mixtape making or witchcraft, you're going to need an online presence.
00:32:43
Whatever your thing is, Squarespace helps you build a website that's as unique as you are.
00:32:47
Squarespace provides you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place.
00:32:52
From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your offerings with a customizable
00:32:56
website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional
00:33:01
invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling
00:33:06
and email marketing tools. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools,
00:33:10
anyone can build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or
00:33:14
business. Head to squarespace.com slash murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch,
00:33:19
use offer code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.
00:33:25
Summer clothes should feel easy and still look polished. Low maintenance, high reward. That's
00:33:30
how we live our lives. For summer clothes you will actually wear, there's Quince. Quince has
00:33:34
beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and toffs with style starting at
00:33:40
$32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear, and their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for
00:33:45
layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 percent less than
00:33:49
similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories, so you're paying for quality,
00:33:53
not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has become a destination for elevated
00:33:58
essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium
00:34:03
feel into everyday life. I am a fan of Quince. Yeah, Karen's wardrobe is Quince. I mean, I'm a
00:34:09
lazy basics person. And the things that I get from them, I always go, oh yeah, now I'm wearing
00:34:15
these. They work. They're cute. They're stylish. And they're classy. Like it doesn't look lazy.
00:34:20
It looks classy. And it's so affordable. Yeah. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to
00:34:25
quince.com slash MFM for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in
00:34:31
Canada too. That's quince.com slash MFM for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash MFM.
00:34:39
Goodbye. When you're young, you don't really buy furniture. You either inherit something from your parents or you just drag something in from the street
00:34:47
like you're some kind of hipster raccoon. When you're ready for furniture that you actually like, check out Article.
00:34:53
Article offers the style and durability you want at a price that actually makes sense.
00:34:57
They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time.
00:35:02
There's no filler. Every item is chosen for craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.
00:35:07
And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.
00:35:15
Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week, offering knowledgeable support and even free interior design services to help you get your home just right.
00:35:24
Yes, please. Don't we all kind of need that? Like the eye of an expert? Yeah. Where should I put this? And also, what should I move here and there?
00:35:31
And what should I even get? But Article has it all, so you can get whatever there.
00:35:34
That's right. You could be like, I have this thing. Should I get this one or that one?
00:35:38
Am I Scandi or am I mid-century? Help me be boho chic, please. If you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed, head over to article.com.
00:35:46
Goodbye. So as we all know when I'm working and I'm in the midst and in the mix,
00:35:55
and I don have a ton of time to do my homework what do I do I like to retell you my favorite I survived episode That great Okay good Thank God No can we stop for a
00:36:06
minute? Karen, I'm going to need you go outside. Um, take notes. Uh, here's what's amazing to me.
00:36:15
So this one I remembered, and we've actually talked about it very lightly before. Um, but
00:36:20
it's one of my favorites. And when I went to rewatch it, so I could just base, I'm all the
00:36:26
information is from this, uh, this woman who's it's her story. I'm taking it directly from the
00:36:32
I survived episode. This is basically like, if you're driving, I'm telling you when I survived,
00:36:36
so you don't have to watch it. Cause that's exactly what I'm, what everything I'm talking
00:36:40
about. I got from the show. I tried to watch it actually recently and it's hard. Yeah. It's hard
00:36:45
and it's fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I haven't watched a lot of these. So tell me what I love about it is it, it, it electrifies me with people sitting there
00:36:55
telling this thing that we only talk, talk about third, fifth hands, you know, so far
00:37:02
away, so distant. Because we don't have the explanation of the victim because they're dead in most cases.
00:37:08
Yeah. And these are people who got through it and turned around and were like, this happened
00:37:13
to me. It's not my fault. I got through it. I'm not, you know, I'm like, here's what I did after. And it's amazing. And
00:37:20
they're 80% women. It's, and the women who are on it, I would say 80% were raped in some way and
00:37:28
left for dead in some way. And then there's just some man who was like, well, I took my tractor
00:37:32
out. Well, there was one real, the one I watched, the only episode I watched, there was a guy who
00:37:37
was um in haiti after yes and there was an earthquake and he was trapped in the hotel
00:37:44
elevator that fell upon him for like 80 something hours yeah and it was incredible yeah but other
00:37:51
you know he was there to fucking help people so it's not like he was like i hiked into the forest
00:37:55
no and look their survival stories are important too but it's it's interesting to watch if you're
00:38:02
interested watch it because you'll see the difference of somebody that's like he held a
00:38:06
knife to my throat. It's like they should make two shows. And one of them is these stories of
00:38:10
getting lost and, you know, be on your boat or whatever, and earthquakes. And the other should
00:38:15
be, it's like kind of paying tribute to, to women who have been men who have been attacked and right.
00:38:21
Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, they can do what they want. Yeah. As long as they keep doing it. So I
00:38:27
have these things to rely upon not to talk down. Like, yeah, look, Hey, listen. Okay. So this is
00:38:33
what's amazing about this is it's a season two, episode 10 of I survived. Um, it's the same
00:38:41
episode as our friend, Sarah Brady, who was pregnant, nine months pregnant and who got
00:38:46
attacked by the fake pregnant girls. The best episode you've ever seen. The best episode. My
00:38:51
favorite, my favorite girl. Well, this woman is on the same episode as her. That's insane.
00:38:56
I was thrilled. It was like a star sighting for me. Okay. So this is, um, this is Ellen
00:39:03
Halbert story. Okay. Okay. This takes place outside of Austin, Texas in, uh, an affluent area,
00:39:10
I guess in the Hills in 1986, September of 1986. So, um, Ellen Halbert, uh, is in her forties.
00:39:19
She's a wife and mother. She's having a run of the mill morning. She's, uh, reading the paper.
00:39:25
She's drinking her coffee and peace and quiet. Her husband is out for the day golfing and her son
00:39:30
is at school all day. Um, so, you know, she eventually decides to go upstairs and take a
00:39:37
shower to get ready for her day. Uh, she goes, she takes a shower and when she gets out of the shower,
00:39:44
she grabs a towel, wraps it around her. She's walking over to the closet to get a robe when
00:39:51
she notices something in the corner. Oh no, no, no. And what's in the corner is a five foot 11 man
00:39:58
standing holding she says the largest knife she's ever seen up above his head dressed like a ninja.
00:40:08
Can you fucking like you'd be like this my brain isn't working. She said she laughed out loud
00:40:16
because she couldn't figure out she said she thought it was a joke couldn't figure out what was happening.
00:40:22
I have chills right now. Yes. It's like seeing a ghost. Yes. But like, and also it's that thing where, you know, sometimes I get, I have like those weird floaters in my eyes where everyone's like, is that a cat? Like I'm like, you're having a seizure, Karen. Cat seizure, which is like some weird thing passes in your eyeliner. Yeah, definitely. You don't turn your head and expect to see a huge cat standing there or what I mean, but that's the full body. Yeah. You expect to see like, Oh, weird. I might've, she didn't expect anything.
00:40:56
She didn't even see anything out of the corner of her eyes. She's just getting out of the shower regular day.
00:41:01
Fuck. Okay. Horrifying. Everyone is gasping in their cars right now. Also, this ninja outfit, if you're not familiar, every part of his body was covered.
00:41:14
It was black pants, black shirt, head wrap. He's also wearing gloves. So it's just eyes and a knife, basically, in the corner of her bathroom.
00:41:25
Okay. uh he screams get on the floor uh and comes at her and they start to as she says in the episode
00:41:34
tussle which is the cutest and also reminds me of the movie out of sight with j-lo and george
00:41:41
oh that scene in the bathroom those guys um anyhow uh so he pushes her into the bedroom
00:41:51
and he backhands her and knocks her onto the ground. She gets up he does it again She gets up again and sits on the edge of the bed And because she says she basically naked except for this towel she pulls her knees up to her chest to like try to get covered in as small as she can
00:42:10
And he walks over and drags the knife across her feet. And he says, I just want you to know that my knives are much sharper than yours.
00:42:19
Oh, my God. Did he cut her feet or just kind of was, like, threatening her? It says, she said dragged across.
00:42:26
So we don't know. So I would think, I think she'd say cut. Yeah. Anyway, you're right.
00:42:32
He tells her to look down and close her eyes and not to look at him. And then she does it.
00:42:37
He takes his ninja mask off his face and wraps it around her head as a blindfold.
00:42:43
And then he says, it's a shame. You can't see me. I'm half black and half white.
00:42:48
And I'm a very handsome man. What a weird power move. Yeah. For sure. Um, he starts asking her how much money she has. She offers to drive him to the bank.
00:43:00
She says, she'll give you a, she'll give him everything she has in the bank. Um, you know,
00:43:05
she's bargaining, obviously she says, let me write you a check. I'll give you everything I have.
00:43:10
He says to her, you're going to have a bad accident lady. Oh my God. Yeah. He holds a knife to her throat. He binds her ankles and her hands behind her back.
00:43:20
um and i just also say that if someone either lets you see them when they're attacking you or
00:43:27
says to you what they look like then i would be like oh shit i'm not getting away from this to
00:43:33
identify him that's right yeah you know yeah yeah i think that's very realistic here um so he starts
00:43:41
to explain to her what his deal is and basically says that he's been hiding in her attic for two
00:43:48
days. So he knows that the husband is golfing all day and he knows that the son is gone all day.
00:43:54
He knows no one's coming for her. He knows he's not going to get interrupted. And then he says,
00:44:00
I'm going to rape you. Uh, she begs for mercy as a Christian woman. He says, it doesn't matter,
00:44:06
uh, what he does to her. Cause no one's ever going to catch him. Um, so he says, get back on
00:44:12
the bed and then he rapes her. And when he's done, he goes and takes a shower and he puts his ninja
00:44:18
suit back on. Um, so she now is so scared that he's going to kill her. She doesn't try to move.
00:44:25
She doesn't try to escape. He cuts her hands apart. He pulls off the blindfold. He shows her
00:44:30
a check that he's taken out of her purse that he's written out to the amount of $600. And then
00:44:37
he tells her to write his name on the check, Troy Eugene Wigley. He gave her his full name
00:44:44
to write on the check. What the fuck? So she writes it. Then he says to lay on the floor
00:44:50
in the bathroom in the fetal position. And she does it. And she says she feels the right
00:44:56
side of her head explode. And what's happened is he's hit her in the head with a hammer.
00:45:00
Oh no. Hammer is always my nightmare. It's so gross. Oh my God. She feels her head explode. Yeah. That's so descriptive. And she doesn't know what's going on, obviously.
00:45:13
Like that's the thing on that show that freaks me out all the time. People get shot in the head
00:45:18
and they're sitting there telling their story completely regular, like it was you or I,
00:45:23
and they've been shot in the head. And when they describe it, it's that thing where that,
00:45:27
cause you don't know what happened. It's like all of a sudden there was a weird sound in my ear,
00:45:32
Like the way the, the personal experience, that's why I'm obsessed with that show.
00:45:36
It's the personal experience of it. I don't think I really understand. And that's probably what the show is too, is like, I don't comprehend being blindfolded
00:45:44
and how specifically scary that must be. Like, I don't think about that part, you know, where it's like, you actually are not aware
00:45:52
of anything in your life going on and all you have are your thoughts. Right. You don't get to experience it.
00:45:59
I don't think about that. You know, like, yeah, that sounds I need to I need to put myself in that position and think about it.
00:46:07
Or you don't have to. Yeah, that's true. You don't have to. OK. I mean, you don't have to.
00:46:12
OK. All right. I feel so obligated to put my my myself in these victims shoes so I can.
00:46:19
Well, that's good. I mean, it's about empathy. Yeah. But it's just to me, it's also just medically fascinating.
00:46:25
Like you would think if somebody got hit, if you got hit in the head with a hammer intentionally,
00:46:31
you're not going to survive that. No. And people do. People survive all kinds of shit.
00:46:36
Yeah. Fucking crazy. Okay. So then he stabs her in the left breast. Oh no. So then he hits her in the head again, stabs her twice in the back of the neck.
00:46:45
Oh my God. It's going to get worse. Okay. Uh, don't worry. It gets worse. Uh, then he tries to, oh wait, so you're, you stop sipping coffee.
00:46:55
Because I'm going to spit everywhere. He tries to stab her in the skull, but the knife won't go in.
00:47:01
I can't. So he hammers the knife into her. Oh, all right. I can't do this. It's.
00:47:08
I also think that Vince is in the other room listening to this. He's horrified by.
00:47:13
There's no way he doesn't have the earbuds in. Because Vince doesn't like true crime.
00:47:17
You're right. He's got those headphones in. But this is the thing about. And I won't say it again.
00:47:22
This is the 19th time I've said it. it's her telling the story. I know. I know. She's the one going,
00:47:28
then he hammered the knife into my skull. So there's that part of it where it's a person who went through this and came
00:47:34
out the other side. Came out. Okay. Okay. Jesus. Then he, one last thing. Okay. I'm here.
00:47:42
I'm here with you. He tries to pull the knife out. It won't come out. So he's shaking her head around.
00:47:47
Your hand movement just now. Okay. He's, he's trying to get it out. But he eventually puts his foot on her head to pull the knife out.
00:47:56
She feels all this, but then she starts to go out of consciousness. I'm kind of getting a little woozy right now.
00:48:02
Really? Like I'm sweating a little. Yeah, this is bad. This is a bad one. So she's going in and out of consciousness.
00:48:10
She doesn't know where he is. She looks into the bedroom and he's standing there with the,
00:48:15
and he doesn't have the ninja outfit on anymore. And he screams, put your head back down.
00:48:21
So she stops moving. She's like, and he comes and he pulls her wedding rings off.
00:48:27
So she's like, oh, he's going to kill me for sure. she's freezing cold. She's lost so much blood, but she knows he's going to kill me. So she has
00:48:35
to do something. So, uh, he walks away. Once he pulls those rings off, he leaves and she doesn't
00:48:41
know where he is, but she decides she has to, this whole time she's been in the bathroom. Yeah.
00:48:46
Um, she's like, I have to get out of here. So she pulls herself along the ground out of the
00:48:51
bathroom through the bedroom and pushes herself down a flight of stairs to get downstairs to the
00:48:56
phone. Oh my God. And she gets to the phone. She, what drove me insane when I watched this for the
00:49:02
first time, she called her parents. No, but I don't know if it's because it was 1986. So maybe
00:49:08
the 911 system wasn't in place entirely. Yeah. Maybe it was like so rural or maybe her brain
00:49:13
just wasn't functioning correctly. And the only phone number that could come to her was her,
00:49:17
her family's like childhood home. That would make perfect sense. I remember mine still.
00:49:21
Oh, you gave the area code too. Shit. Well, whoever, call someone, no, don't call that.
00:49:31
Can you bleep out part of it, Steven? We're so proud to know our own phone number.
00:49:35
I know that we give out our social security number. Okay, so basically she goes out of consciousness for a little while.
00:49:42
The next time she remembers anything, she heard her father screaming. He came in with the EMTs.
00:49:48
So they all found her kind of together. they load her up and she hears two emts talking over her about how she's not going to make it
00:49:56
oh my god in her head she's like i am too going to make it she that's when she like
00:50:01
turned fuck yeah girl it's so awesome and she's just basically like this man is not going to take
00:50:06
my life from me it's not happening that is amazing so uh they take get her to the hospital
00:50:12
she has so many stab wounds she needs over 600 stitches I think in the end she ended
00:50:21
up he stopped her over 30 times he was 18 years old Troy Wigley was arrested at the bank
00:50:33
trying to cash the check he forced her to write to him he's convicted of aggravated robbery
00:50:38
he's sentenced to life in prison oh thank god Yeah. I looked up his name. I looked up her. I looked up a bunch of stuff to try to find out what that was about.
00:50:49
Yeah. Because it sounds like one of those things where if they didn't have evidence here or there, they were just trying to get him on something that stuck.
00:50:57
Blah, blah, blah. But to me, it's so insane if she's been stabbed multiple times.
00:51:02
Yeah. Why aggravated robbery is what he actually gets convicted on. right because attempted murder for some reason isn't treated as murder it's not murder right
00:51:15
that's why it's not treated as murder no but that drives me crazy i know but it's not i know i know
00:51:20
they have to be two different things i know i mean they just do but so she makes a full recovery
00:51:26
it takes her years of pain and hard work she said she spent a lot of time in denial about what
00:51:32
happened to her. She spent months crying, obviously, uh, who wouldn't, um, she had multiple
00:51:38
surgeries for all of her, uh, wounds. She developed a lot of stress related illnesses that lasted for
00:51:45
years because of the trauma, her marriage crumbled. She was left without a job or money,
00:51:49
but she was determined to come out, um, on the other side stronger. What an amazing woman. So
00:51:56
she realizes she has to get help. So she gets counseling, um, and she joins a victim support
00:52:02
group. Amazing. And she decides that her first goal that she has to set goals for herself so
00:52:08
she can recover. Like she has to make it a step-by-step process. So her first goal is she's
00:52:13
going to release all the rage and anger that she has about what happened to her. Um, cause she,
00:52:19
uh, realized that's, that's how she's going to get better for herself. Um, and then she
00:52:26
starts to speak out for victims' rights and what needs to change in what she calls our
00:52:32
offender-focused criminal justice system. In 1991, she's appointed by then-Governor Ann Richards to serve on the Texas Board of
00:52:43
Criminal Justice, and she did it for six years. Holy shit. It was an unpaid position.
00:52:48
So while she was there, she started, and it went from part-time to full-time, and she
00:52:54
just started doing all kinds of research on the Texas criminal justice system, on victims' rights,
00:53:01
on rehabilitation for prisoners, as opposed to just punitive, you know, lock them up and throw
00:53:07
away the key. In 1996, both the Texas Corrections Association and the Texas Crime Victim Clearinghouse
00:53:13
established awards in her name to recognize her work on behalf of crime victims.
00:53:18
because of her tireless advocacy for rehabilitation of offenders and her dedication to the victims' rights.
00:53:26
In 1995, a 500-bed female substance abuse treatment unit was named after her. Oh, my God.
00:53:33
In 1997, she won the National Crime Victim Service Award, the highest federal award for service to victims.
00:53:39
In 1999, she was named one of Texas' Women of this Century. Holy shit. And in 2001, she was the mediator for a court TV documentary
00:53:47
called Meeting with a Killer One Family's Journey, which was nominated for an Emmy in 2002.
00:53:53
How have I not watched that? Court TV Maybe it just old Yeah Yeah And Ellen Halbert is presently well presently at the time of the article that I was reading So it might not be right now but she is the director
00:54:09
of the victim witness division at the district attorney's office in Travis County, Texas.
00:54:14
What an amazing human being. Isn't that fucking nuts? That I, yeah, I'm trying to focus on that
00:54:21
part instead of the other parts. Cause I feel, I think that's the point. I feel nauseous. Like,
00:54:27
you know, like, cause it's so funny how, when it's a survivor, I feel like we've,
00:54:32
I think we're both in the mindset that like, don't get too disgusting and graphic when it's
00:54:37
someone who's died, but when it's a survivor, you can explain everything that happened because
00:54:41
they survived that. Well, and cause it's her story. So it's the way she tells it.
00:54:45
And she wants it told that way. Tell it the way she tells it. Totally. Totally. Yeah. That's how
00:54:49
she wants it to be told. Yeah. So, yeah, that's insane and amazing. And what a fucking inspiration
00:54:57
and badass motherfucker. Yeah. She's rad. Yeah. Wow. That was incredible. Okay, we're back. Karen. Wow. Any updates? The only update is that Troy Wigley remains in prison.
00:55:14
He was denied parole last year. His next review is in 2027. And I mean, this era of me just repeating I survived episodes, although I kind of love it because it for me, I think it turned a corner for me in terms of how much better it felt to tell a story like that.
00:55:34
And I think that it's interesting. Like, it's like, so we'd been doing this for like a year or so. And suddenly it's kind of like, I don't want to talk about those things anymore, those hard ones.
00:55:46
Totally. And then realizing like, oh, I love this show and I can just retell. Yeah.
00:55:51
Like Ellen's story from I Survived, she tells it so beautifully, obviously. Yeah.
00:55:55
And it's her story. But to be able to basically be like, and she lived and she fought and she, you know, then gave back to women.
00:56:03
Yeah. It's like such a satisfying kind of new version of storytelling. Yeah. You needed some hope in your true crime rather than just like the bleakness.
00:56:12
Yeah. Like, for example, the story I'm about to do that has stuck with me, will never think about Girl Scout camp again without thinking about this story.
00:56:20
Same. It's just so heartbreaking. It's time to listen to Georgia tell the story of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders.
00:56:31
If you spend all day waiting to take your bra off, it might be time for Third Love.
00:56:36
If you're looking for breathable, lightweight comfort this summer, you're going to love Third Love.
00:56:40
Third Love is built around getting the fit right instead of expecting you to put up with something that doesn't work.
00:56:45
And Third Love offers a full range of sizes from AA to H, including their exclusive half cup sizes, so you can find a fit that feels just right instead of close enough.
00:56:54
Stop settling for bad bras. Whether you're looking for more lift, back smoothing, or straps that stay put, Third Love can find your fit fast.
00:57:02
Their virtual fitting room gets you in the right size and matches you with the best styles for your shape.
00:57:06
If you've ever been fitted for the right size bra, you are in for a treat. It actually changes the whole game with bras.
00:57:13
I thought I was like a something, something A cup. I'm a something, something B cup.
00:57:17
And it's just changed my bra game. I thought I just hated bras, but I was wearing the wrong size.
00:57:22
And with Third Love, like they're so comfortable that it doesn't even feel like I'm wearing a bra.
00:57:26
Use code MFM15 for $15 off your first purchase at thirdlove.com. Goodbye. Bye. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer,
00:57:37
Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent. The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14.
00:57:43
Making plays that end up on everyone's feed, scoring from angles that don't make sense,
00:57:47
rewriting record books that barely had time to gather dust. Because Next doesn't wait for an invitation, and Hyundai doesn't either.
00:57:53
Hyundai has always moved the future within reach. Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle.
00:57:59
Hyundai did it by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability. And Hyundai continues doing it every day.
00:58:06
From robotics that change how people live to young athletes changing the game, the future isn't some far-off concept. It's already here.
00:58:13
Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. Peace of mind can be hard to come by.
00:58:19
Especially at 2 a.m. when your house suddenly makes a weird noise. That's why so many people trust SimpliSafe to help keep their home secure.
00:58:26
Traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in has already happened, and that's too late.
00:58:31
SimpliSafe is changing that. The system is customizable so you can build the one that fits your home and your specific needs.
00:58:37
The 24-7 professional monitoring is effective and affordable and won't lock you into a long-term contract.
00:58:43
Listen, Cookie is a really good watchdog, but she's not going to tell me what is actually going on,
00:58:48
if it's a raccoon or if it's a person looking through my windows. Like, you have to get this level of safety if you want to feel as safe as possible.
00:58:56
So you know what's going on. So I just feel safer with actually having something like SimpliSafe around.
00:59:01
There's a whole staff at SimpliSafe that's waiting to talk to you and help you out and tell you, no, you're fine.
00:59:06
It's a raccoon. Right now you can get 50% off your new system by visiting SimpliSafe.com slash MFM.
00:59:12
That's half off at SimpliSafe.com slash MFM. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Goodbye.
00:59:20
Mine isn't so good. Great. Mine is not so positive. all right i'm not going to tell you the name of it because you're going to fuck oops you're
00:59:30
going to know it pretty quickly and uh yeah june 12th 1977 nearly 140 girl scouts arrived at camp
00:59:42
scott here we go amazing the oklahoma girl scout murders this is so fucking awful yeah and there's
00:59:50
a lot of stuff I didn't know about it. I think I've kind of known the murder part,
00:59:53
but didn know what came after it So they arrived at Camp Scott a sprawling heavily wooded property southeast of Locust Grove in northeast Oklahoma And the Girl Scouts had been coming to this spot
01:00:09
every summer for 50 years. Three months before camp was supposed to start. What?
01:00:14
Just that idea, 50 years of historical nine to 11 year olds in the woods. Yeah. It just immediately made me go like, there's somebody that knew they came back every year.
01:00:27
There's somebody that like knew the knew they would be there at that time. Yeah. And I went to Girl Scout camp in a situation in credit, like probably exactly the same setup as this story and this camp.
01:00:41
So I can picture exactly what happened. Sorry, I just remembered when I was doing remember when I did that casino gig with Julian McCullough.
01:00:50
it was in Oklahoma. Oh yeah. The woman who, who was the booker for that casino, which was the
01:00:56
best gig. It was so much fun. And I'm so sorry. I can't remember your name off the top. Yeah.
01:01:01
I will get it eventually. Um, drove me by the street. You turned down to get to this girl's
01:01:10
which is now or maybe they turned it into something else, but we drove all around where
01:01:16
she was like, you want me to show it to you? And I was like, yes, I do want you to show it to me,
01:01:20
but we couldn't, it was like too far. She was like, it's basically over there. Yeah.
01:01:24
Cause it's the middle of, you know, big flat. I think there's like a long walkway. I think that's called cookie lane.
01:01:29
Three months before camp was to start, I think they're having like all the counselors come and learn what they're going to be doing.
01:01:37
April 1977, a counselor at camp, Scott, had found that her tent had been ransacked and her donuts were stolen.
01:01:44
And in the donut box and the empty box was a note warning that three girls would be murdered at the camp in the future.
01:01:52
No. Yeah. I feel like I'd never heard that before. Yeah. Everyone wrote it off as a prank.
01:02:00
Yeah. Until. So June 12th, 1977, first official night of the two-week stay at Camp Scott.
01:02:07
The night is a big thunderstorm, so they don't have their usual activities. Everyone kind of just hunkers down into their tents.
01:02:14
So they had like, it was like the canvas tent material, but like a wood floor. Yeah.
01:02:20
Um, that's actually when I went to camp, that's what the tents were like. Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:23
They called them cabins. Right. When I went to Girl Scout camp, it was like that too.
01:02:27
Um, and you're like shitty cot bed and stuff. Yeah. With your itchy fucking, uh, what's it called?
01:02:34
Sleeping bag. Yeah. It's all very uncomfortable. Like it's fun at first. And then you're like, I, my bed is way better.
01:02:41
Yeah. And taking a shower, you're only allowed 30 second showers. It sucks. What?
01:02:45
Yeah. I think that there was probably a drought at the time. And so they timed the showers and they literally shut off.
01:02:50
30 seconds. It must have been like 45 seconds or something like that. Still. Jesus.
01:02:55
They're like, we're teaching you how to conserve water. But teaching you how to be dirty.
01:02:58
Yeah. I hated it. So they hunker down for the night. It has no lights in any of the cabins.
01:03:07
They just have flashlights. So tent eight is known as Kiowa. And in that tent, usually it was four girls to attend.
01:03:16
no counselors in any of the tents. The three friends are Lori Lee Farmer, she's eight,
01:03:23
Doris Denise Milner, who's 10, and Michelle Gousset, who's nine. They're all from Broken Arrow,
01:03:30
Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Tulsa. And Kiowa, their cabin was located the furthest
01:03:37
from the camp counselor's tents. It's about 86 yards away, and it's partially obscured by the
01:03:44
shower for the camp. So it was like the most remote cabin. And 86 yards is like almost a football field.
01:03:51
Is it? I didn't know. A football field's a hundred yards. Yeah. So it's like, that's so far away.
01:03:56
It might be feet. I heard it was one of those things where like in different articles, I read different things.
01:04:01
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. That happens all the time where you're reading this exact same information, but that happens all the time where it's like, is this person's name Jerry or James?
01:04:09
Right. But it just changes per article. Or someone in Reddit is like, this is wrong.
01:04:13
But I wouldn't be, you know, the way those things are like set up to make them more like in nature.
01:04:20
And 86 feet is still a long way off from responsible. Not even for nine and ten year old.
01:04:26
But there's probably 16 year old girls who are counselors. So it's and you can see like they have a layout online to show exactly where it is.
01:04:33
And it's absolutely on its own. So. okay so that night it said there's a book called in the camps called the camps got murders by c.s
01:04:46
kelly he says that two counselors had been frightened by two men at the camp that night
01:04:51
and some campers said they saw a man in army boots behind a tent this there's so much pre
01:04:57
shit at 1 30 in the morning someone hears moaning out near camp kiowa everyone's in their tent
01:05:06
Carla, a camp counselor, she checks out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning,
01:05:12
but it would stop whenever her flashlight came near. Also, around 2 a.m., the tent flap of tent 7 is opened.
01:05:21
Three of the girls inside are sleeping, but the fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light
01:05:25
moving around the interior from outside with a silhouette of a large figure behind it.
01:05:31
And then she says the figure moved off toward tent number 8. which is Keila. Nora just came back from camp.
01:05:39
Your nine-year-old niece? Ten. Ten-year-old niece. I mean, this is rough. Can you imagine?
01:05:45
Okay. Well, imagine getting this call, your sister getting this call. Don't imagine it.
01:05:51
No, I imagine things like that all the time. Yeah, I know. It's so hard not to. Isn that just the standard thing of like oh yeah For a while I told you that For a while I couldn stop doing it I finally had to call my sister and I was like I can I just can stop imagining something But my sister goes oh yeah I do that all the time I do it all the time
01:06:09
And I was like, oh, okay. She's just like, too bad. That's how it is. That's when you love a child. That's what happens.
01:06:14
That's what, that's part of it. I get it. So, all right. Moaning sounds are heard throughout the night,
01:06:21
throughout the camp. At around 3 a.m., a girl in the Cherokee section across the woods heard a
01:06:28
scream coming from the direction of the Kiowa Cabin 8. And here it says it was located about
01:06:34
two city blocks away. And she heard moaning. A girl in another cabin also heard a scream. And
01:06:41
the cries she said sounded like, mama, mama, someone yelling mama, mama. I know. The next
01:06:49
morning at 6 a.m. June 13th, a camp counselor's on her way to the showers and she stumbles
01:06:55
upon a horrific scene near Tent 8. How old? She's probably six. It's a camp counselor. Oh, a counselor. Sorry.
01:07:05
So, the night before, somewhere between two and four in the morning, someone had cut his way
01:07:13
into the tent. Here it gets horrible. He bludgeons and rapes Lori and Michelle they had been struck and killed in the tent while they were sleeping
01:07:25
and they had been bound and and then they bound or the person bound and gagged Doris
01:07:32
and took her outside, raped and strangled her as well. So then the two girls who are in the tent are like stuffed into the bottom
01:07:40
of their sleeping bags and their sleeping bags are pulled to where Doris is on a path about 150 feet away from the tent. So all three girls are left together on like a trail.
01:07:56
Gousset and farmer sleeping bags had blood, their bodies were inside. They had bloody bed sheets
01:08:01
that had been used. The killer tried to wipe down the blood that was on the floor of the cabin,
01:08:06
which is so weird. And they also found a roll of black duct tape and a flashlight the murderer
01:08:12
had discarded. I was thinking, like, was his blood in that blood, and that's why he was trying to clean it up?
01:08:21
Who knows? Yeah. Yeah, there was bloody bed sheets. It seemed like after the attacks, he tried to cover his tracks.
01:08:29
Yeah. Which almost seems like he was panicking. Well, and also then, hey, don't leave your flashlight.
01:08:34
Yeah. It sounds like he was panicking. Maybe can't realize what he had done. Tried to fix it, you know.
01:08:42
Okay. So four days later, so police come, they, you know, they clean up the scene.
01:08:52
And four days later, you know, there's this insane manhunt that starts like the biggest manhunt in Oklahoma history.
01:09:00
Four days later, police find sunglasses belonging to a Camp Scott counselor and a boot print that matched the one found at the scene of a crime in a cave near the camp.
01:09:11
So they find that and they also find a message written on the wall in one of the caves that says the killer was here.
01:09:18
Bye bye, fools. And then the date 61777. They also find tape, plastic bags, plastic from a garbage bag similar to that wrapped around the flashlight found next to the girls and a newspaper from the same edition as the piece discovered in the flashlight left next to the girls.
01:09:38
And they also find two photos. They find two photos of women. The photos are determined to be from the wedding of a prison guard.
01:09:49
And they're traced back to a man named Gene Leroy Hart, who had been working at the photo lab in Granite Reformatory and had developed the photos of the wedding of the prison guard when he was serving time for kidnapping and first degree rape convictions in 1966.
01:10:08
So he had these photos of these women, for some reason left them behind, and they were able to trace them back to him.
01:10:15
Okay. So that means he developed these pictures because it was his job at the prison.
01:10:21
Yeah. But those pictures were never given to the prison guard? He probably made copies of them for himself.
01:10:27
Maybe they were two pretty women and he wanted to keep the photos of women. But it's not, the prison guard is in the clear.
01:10:33
Yeah. It's not the prison guard. Yeah. So we'll talk about Jean Leroy Hart. He's a 34-year-old Cherokee Native American.
01:10:41
He's 5'10", weighs about 200 pounds. He's pretty built. He's like a thick dude. He's got black hair, brown eyes.
01:10:47
He's born and raised in Locust Grove, which is right next to the camp. He was a high school football star.
01:10:55
He was bright and popular. One of his teachers said he just wasn't the kind of kid you would have thought would have turned out bad.
01:11:02
But he was an immediate suspect. At the time of the murders, he was on the run from police because he had escaped jail in 1973.
01:11:11
He was 22 when he was arrested and accused of abducting two pregnant women from a Tulsa club, raping one of them.
01:11:19
And he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three concurrent 10 year prison terms, which is 10 years, as we know.
01:11:26
Three concurrent 10 year terms is 10 years, not 30 years. Exactly. Which is absurd.
01:11:33
He's paroled after for raping and kidnapping two pregnant women. He's paroled after 28 months.
01:11:41
Hmm. Mm hmm. He's arrested again in 1969. This time he's charged with four counts of first degree burglary.
01:11:48
Pleased not guilty. He's found guilty. And for this, this and his past crimes, then he's finally sentenced to a maximum of 305
01:11:58
years in prison. Jesus. Yeah. You know that judge probably was like aghast if he got out so quickly for rape and kind of threw the book at him, maybe?
01:12:07
Yeah, maybe. The only problem is that if he was set up for the first one, then his...
01:12:12
I don't think he was. That's the only problem. Well, I know you don't think he was.
01:12:15
Well, he pled guilty to that. I know. Lots of people do that. I know, I know. So he had grown up a half a mile north of Camp Scott.
01:12:24
There were other suspects, including a convicted rapist named Bill Stevens. The couple who knew a couple who knew Stephen said he borrowed a flashlight that matched the description of the one used left in the crime scene a few days before the murder.
01:12:37
And he showed up with what looked like blood on his boots. He told them he experienced car travel in Locust Grove.
01:12:45
He denied everything. He said he hadn't been in the area. And but a scout at the camp testified that she had seen a man who looked like him at the camp.
01:12:56
But they still focused on Hart. the manhunt would go down as the largest in state history. It took an entire year to catch him.
01:13:03
He was just cave to cave, house to house, um, on the run. So they found him in April, 1978. He'd
01:13:11
been hiding out in the area. Um, and each cave, uh, released, they, each cave had clues and
01:13:18
evidence related to the Girl Scout murders. So they, you know, confirming to police that he was
01:13:24
their man. They also, they found a mirror and a toy pipe, which another counselor testified had
01:13:29
been taking from her tent. He went to trial for the murders and faced three counts of first degree
01:13:34
murder. He was acquitted after just five hours of deliberation. So this whole community of people
01:13:41
and so many people in the community rallied behind him and thought it was a setup that these,
01:13:46
the evidence had been planted, that he was a good, you know, a good kid. The, of course,
01:13:51
Cherokee Indians, not of course, but they backed, they didn't, they didn't come out as saying they
01:13:57
thought he hadn't done it, but they said they were giving him money for his defense, um, to support
01:14:03
him because as an American and, uh, Native American, he, they didn't think he would get a fair trial
01:14:09
unless he had the money to represent himself, which obviously is true, but they said specifically,
01:14:15
this isn't, we're not saying we think he's innocent or guilty. They just wanted him to have a fair trial.
01:14:20
Exactly. Right. Right. So, um, because probably in that area, the go-to thing is if something happens,
01:14:29
why don't you go look on the reservation? Why don't you go look at a Native American?
01:14:33
Exactly. Yeah. Um, and all the other suspects that they had and that are still around were white.
01:14:39
So they just went out. It seemed like they went after him, but he was acquitted. Everyone in the
01:14:44
courtroom cheered, which if you read articles, the three families of the three killed girls
01:14:51
were just so devastated when people were cheering that he got off. Of course. And the jurors ended up saying there were too many loose ends, too many things didn't
01:15:02
add up. One juror said none of us knew whether he did it or didn't. We were shocked that they didn't have more evidence than what they had.
01:15:10
So they just couldn't convict him. But because of his previous jailbreak and his earlier crimes, he was taken to prison to serve the remaining 300 years of his previous rape and burglary convictions.
01:15:22
So he's taken to prison anyways. Three weeks later, in 1979, at 35 years old, while jogging in the prison yard, he dies of a heart attack.
01:15:35
Some people think he didn't do it or that he didn't act alone. There's physical evidence left behind in the crime scene that was recovered during the autopsy that indicates that two offenders were involved in the crime, including two different knots being used to tie up the girls, which I think is always kind of a weird sign, right?
01:15:55
And the girls were separated and died in different manners. Evidence presented at Hart's trial that was used to rule him out included a footprint in the blood of the floor of the cabin that is a size 10.
01:16:08
Hart's feet were closer to an 11 and a half. there's also a fingerprint on the flashlight found at the scene that wasn't hearts which i don't think
01:16:14
is that weird you know it's not like one person would have held that flashlight period you know
01:16:21
there could have been a lot in the life of the flashlight yeah exactly um then a bunch of dns
01:16:27
dna tests have been done on biological evidence from the crime scene since the murders throughout
01:16:31
the years there's been nothing conclusive that has come although in 1989 um so of five aspects
01:16:39
of DNA tested from the scene, three matched some bodily fluids that were taken from heart.
01:16:47
Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples of that fluid. But because there were
01:16:54
only three instead of five matched, their results were officially deemed inconclusive. But an
01:16:59
analysis of sperm samples showed that only 0.002% of the population met the characteristics
01:17:06
contained in the evidence and Hart was included in this. Wow. Yeah. So that's, those numbers are way huger than one in 77,000 or whatever.
01:17:16
And if they had that technology in 1979, maybe he would have been, that would have been enough
01:17:21
evidence for the jury. They kind of went on all circumstantial evidence. Because they had to.
01:17:25
Because that's all they had. Right. Which, you know, it's almost like if they could have waited to have, you know, a lot
01:17:31
of times they'll wait to have more evidence to bring them to trial. I don't know.
01:17:36
Yeah, but you can't wait years. Yeah, but he's in prison anyways. Yeah, but it's a speedy trial.
01:17:41
That's true. And the families wants justice. You can't be like, you know, cross her fingers that good science is coming.
01:17:48
Also, because back then, I think they had no idea the kind of forensics that were going
01:17:52
to eventually exist. Yes Sometimes they like like in the 80s I feel like they are finally like well this new technology is coming out A lot of times you hear on like forensic files let wait until that technology has you know every every year I feel like there a new way of testing
01:18:09
some fluid or some stain that they weren't able to do before to extract a different strain of DNA.
01:18:16
I don't know if I sound like, I don't know what I'm fucking talking about, but I mean, yeah,
01:18:20
pretty standard yeah not like science i think this is what we do we're just basically repeating
01:18:27
what we watch on forensic files right and other shows that tell us about dna they postulating and
01:18:33
you know what's so interesting is in this trial they used things that are now discounted like
01:18:38
hair samples they found a hair that they said matched him um there was another thing that they
01:18:44
found that they said matched him that now wouldn't be admissible in fire is it a fiber probably fibers
01:18:49
Yeah. That now would never be admissible in court. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's still kind of weird.
01:18:56
Let's see. Members of Hart's Native American family also accused the police of going after
01:19:01
Hart because he's a Native American. Many people said that the sheriff of town was really vindictive
01:19:07
because Hart had made him look bad for escaping twice. I just spit. And being on the lam so long,
01:19:13
he was on the lam for four years, which makes the sheriff look really stupid. So he tries to throw
01:19:17
of the book at him. Wow. And a former prosecutor tried to turn the killing and Hart's arrest into
01:19:26
a position as a state attorney general and to write a book about it. So for monetary gain as
01:19:33
well. So that's kind of their proof that he was railroaded. Yeah. So after he died, authorities
01:19:39
didn't pursue that many other suspects after the killings of, and I want to say their names again,
01:19:45
because, you know, they're kind of ignored. So Laura Lee Farmer, Doris Denise Milner, and Michelle Gousset,
01:19:54
no other suspects were really pursued or arrested. And then all the parents went on to do all this, of course, victims advocacy.
01:20:04
They were all, you know, they all are interviewed and ended up being these incredible people and doing good things afterwards.
01:20:11
But when the sister of Lori, when she went back to school after the murder of her sister, two years after, and after he had been acquitted, hard had been acquitted, she wrote a school.
01:20:26
And this is just so sad to me. She wrote a school paper. And in it, she said, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all, except for my family.
01:20:36
Oh, no. I know. And that's the story of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murder. Isn't that sad?
01:20:44
It's so sad. These little girls. Also, to me, it's just like that crime. This is all I think about.
01:20:56
Who knows what really happened? Like the idea that someone hides in caves when they're on the lam is the perfect way to set somebody up to put shit in a cave.
01:21:07
Go find a cave. Why would you? This is like Jack the Ripper stuff. Why would you write on the wall?
01:21:11
If you did this thing, you would cover all your tracks and get the fuck out. I'm going to go writing on the wall.
01:21:17
Bye-bye, motherfuckers. That's so stupid. With a date, putting the date. A date and like, yeah.
01:21:23
Unless you were taunting the police. Unless you were taunting the police or unless the police were trying to set somebody up
01:21:29
to perfectly match what he'd already done in that kind of making a murderer way,
01:21:34
which is like, we don't like you. We don't like your type. We're going to take care of business.
01:21:38
Yeah, and we've been trying to find you. we don't have any more budget to put into this, but if you're the child murderer and rapist,
01:21:45
then we can put all of our resources into finding you. I was just going to say the only problem that
01:21:51
I, I mean, obviously the thing that makes me upset about that, then if that, if that is what
01:21:57
they're doing, if their agenda turns from finding the person who did it into getting the person
01:22:02
that has shamed them or whatever fucking problem there is, then we still have a person who stabbed
01:22:09
three nine-year-old girls with a fucking knife and raped them walking around the world.
01:22:14
Yep. That's the problem to me. Yeah. And so it's one of those cases where I don't know if he's guilty or not, but I could argue
01:22:21
either way, you know, that the evidence was planted in the caves or he was taunting them.
01:22:27
You know, it's either one is plausible. And then arguing, like, I hadn't thought about what you said, which is, um, did he not commit
01:22:34
those rapes? If he committed those rapes to me, it's obvious that he was also capable, you know, of, of this crime.
01:22:43
And I also, I'm, I'm leaning more towards him having it being more than one person who committed those crimes because of the ropes being different knots because of them being separated and, uh, and being murdered in different ways.
01:23:02
you know, two of the girls were immediately knocked unconscious and left in the cabin and
01:23:07
one wasn't, you know, it's, it's, it's weird. It's all different, like MOs. Yeah. And they,
01:23:14
people argue that, um, that, uh, how would, how would one person be able to handle these three
01:23:21
girls, which I think is a bullshit argument because two girls were unconscious, but not
01:23:25
only that, we know that these predators can scare, especially small girls into obeying
01:23:32
them or else. Richard Speck. Yeah. It was eight, I believe off the top of my head, eight nurses, fully grown women who he got
01:23:39
to all stay in a room while he took them out one by one, raped and murdered them.
01:23:45
And they can't, like the woman who was hiding was just like, you don't understand.
01:23:49
It was, it was, he had a gun and he kept being very soothing or whatever. So like that can being able to control people when you are the attacker is I love when people argue that shit where you fucking talking about we not sitting those people weren sitting on a couch drinking coffee casually they were they said if you scream we gonna kill your family yes like or we
01:24:10
gonna as simple as that we if you scream I'll shoot your friend over here that kind of stuff
01:24:14
I mean I hate that argument so that I think you can't really but other little things like this
01:24:21
different kinds of ropes. It's just, it just feels like if there's ever a murder that should
01:24:27
have been solved, right. You know, three, 10 year old girls at Girl Scout camp, they should have
01:24:34
fucking figured out the best way to figure out who did that. Well, I feel, and they're also doing
01:24:39
more, they're, they're continuing the DNA testing. So as it does get more advanced,
01:24:44
they're trying to still open. Yeah. And they are like sending different kinds of, um,
01:24:48
like the new swabs they can actually test. They're still doing that. So there still might
01:24:53
be an answer one day. Don't you think it's possible? Now, you know, I'm love to devil's
01:24:59
advocate and I love to go like, what is the thing that isn't being thought of or something?
01:25:04
Yeah. The idea that he's jogging in jail and dies of a heart attack at age 35 is interesting
01:25:12
to me. Not that it isn't possible. And there's some people that have congenital heart problems.
01:25:16
That's what they said. You know, he's got runs in his family. He was really out of shape.
01:25:20
But 35, definitely. Then why is he jogging? Yeah. Oh, he's going to, you're going to, now you're going to get it all together once you're fucking in jail.
01:25:27
Yeah. You know what? I got it. I'm going to lose this last 20 pounds. That's definitely a good argument.
01:25:32
And it's the thing of like, if that DNA does come back to him, which it kind of seems like it did in these other ways,
01:25:38
people are going to say, well, it was planted. so I think unless it comes back as someone else doing it no one's ever gonna fully believe that
01:25:47
he and conclusively believe that he was the killer right you know what I mean yeah but
01:25:53
but then hearing that he got acquitted is just so if you believe it was him is so heartbreaking
01:26:01
and I think his family the families all believed it was him of course they did yeah they wanted to
01:26:06
But also it's that it makes me think of the Memphis, the West Memphis three. Yeah.
01:26:12
When you have the perfect person who did it, you want it to be over. Yeah. You want it to be over.
01:26:19
And you also want to show everyone that, or the, you know, the police force and the FBI was there every, you know, that was a huge manhunt.
01:26:28
For a year, you want to show that you have done your due diligence and you've caught the bad guy.
01:26:35
Everyone can stop being afraid. Because can you imagine for a year, this person who has no problem raping and sodomizing a fucking nine-year-old is on the loose?
01:26:46
Yeah. In the neighborhood. Then you have to look at all the photos of the three girls.
01:26:50
They're just these sweet baby angel, like young sweethearts. And then I look at the photos of them with their siblings.
01:26:56
And it's those poor, you know, I feel so bad for the victim. But the siblings, too, you know, the rest of their lives must have been so horrifying.
01:27:06
Yeah. It's not something you ever get over. Right. Especially then you go and have children and you see your own nine year old daughter.
01:27:13
And, you know, how can you imagine someone hurting that person? What a fucking monster.
01:27:20
Yeah. Yeah. They've got to figure out a way, minority report style. Totally. To figure out who these people are conclusively.
01:27:30
Yeah. I feel like that's what I feel like instead of making for profit prisons, maybe people,
01:27:39
it should be like, can we just actually focus on so that when these people exist in society,
01:27:44
we figure out a way to find them and make sure they don't do this to people. Well, yeah, we brain scan them and that brain scan tells us what they're capable of,
01:27:54
what they're lying about, even if they're a sociopath, you can still see what neurons fire when they're lying.
01:28:01
Listen, if they have a memory of this crime. If their brains are see-through, like those fish from way down deep
01:28:11
in the deepest depths of the ocean. What are their brains made of? Are they made of goldfish crackers?
01:28:15
Are they just a ton of tiny knives in there? If there are tiny knives, then it's a tiny murderer.
01:28:22
Is there a tiny murderer in the brain controlling it with controls? If there is, let's get rid of those people.
01:28:30
Let's put them all on some kind of leper's island. Great. This has been a serious waste of time.
01:28:37
Thanks, everybody. No, it hasn't. Maybe we'll change everything. No, we'll change nothing.
01:28:43
No, there's lots of people working hard to change things, I think, for sure. We hear from people all the time that are like, I'm going to fucking criminology school.
01:28:51
I'm a victim's advocate all the time it's very cool and I think like that it's that idea that
01:28:59
instead of letting politics get in the way and money let's catch child murderers
01:29:06
let's catch adult murderers let's catch child murderers before they child murder
01:29:11
but then we're getting into some really well that is what Minority Board is about
01:29:17
that and great graphics What's the ethnicity about? And Tom Cruise at his best before the fucking downhill. You guys who are younger don't remember that Tom Cruise was a heartthrope.
01:29:29
You don't remember. It was 2010. Seven years ago, though. Oh, my God. That's seven years ago.
01:29:36
Seven years. I know. I know. I mean, it's time goes by. Okay, we're back. What are the updates for this story?
01:29:48
OK so reporting from 2022 says that DNA tests done by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation strongly quote strongly point to Gene Leroy Hart as being involved in the murders This has led some outlets to declare the case solved but this DNA evidence is ultimately
01:30:05
described as inconclusive, which is so frustrating. In 2022, just ahead of the 45th anniversary of the crime, Hulu and ABC News released a
01:30:15
four-part documentary series entitled Keeper of the Ashes, the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders.
01:30:20
It's anchored by actress, singer, and Oklahoma native Kristen Chenoweth, who in 1977 was a young Girl Scout and planned to go on this camping trip.
01:30:30
Oh, I didn't know that. Isn't that wild? Yeah. She wound up getting sick and not being able to go.
01:30:35
That's incredible. I know. I haven't seen it. I'm definitely going to watch it. Yeah, me too.
01:30:39
In 2023, Cherokee novelist Faith Phillips revealed that a former Mays County sheriff told her he'd obtained a confession in the case.
01:30:47
It reportedly came from an incarcerated man named Buddy Bristol, who said he'd been at the campsite the night of the murders with several other men.
01:30:56
And Phillips, ostensibly quoting her sheriff's source, says that Bristol claimed, quote,
01:31:02
one of the other men murdered the little girls and the other men who he named are still living in the community today.
01:31:09
Oh, my. I mean, that's bombshell information. And like, how do they figure that out?
01:31:15
I don't know. It's so different than what the possible DNA says. Like, it's almost like makes it more convoluted when it's like it could be this, it could be that.
01:31:22
It's like we want a definite answer and there's nothing to give. It feels like if the and correct me if I'm wrong, but like the directive when you told that story was all about how Gene Hart was like it felt like they were like, this is the guy at the end.
01:31:36
Yeah. So that idea that like those same people who did that then are going to come back and be like, hey, look, we found some DNA that proved right.
01:31:44
Totally. Where it's like, yes, we want to be able to trust that source. But that is the source that did it in the first place.
01:31:51
And what does strongly pointing to the person and being inconclusive mean? Like those two things kind of don't go together in any way.
01:31:59
It feels almost like they're floating the gossip of like, it's still him, but we just don't.
01:32:04
Strongly meaning what? I want to know more about that. I mean, it'd be interesting to know that it's so frustrating.
01:32:10
And also that is just, it truly is such a nightmare story. Just heartbreaking. Well, let's wrap this show up.
01:32:19
Let's do it. I love that this is when I got Dottie, my sweet Dottie. Oh, it's like Dottie's origin story.
01:32:26
I know. Dottie's like five and fluffy as shit and loves her crunchies and cat grass.
01:32:31
And she's just the absolute sweetest cat I've ever met in my life. She has always had like that good kind of like classic cat personality.
01:32:40
She's like, I'm not going to. I mean, look, you know, I'm Mimi's number one. I know you are, but Mimi's spicy.
01:32:45
Mimi's spicy and Dottie is sweet. Dottie is so sweet. She like won't even smack Cookie if he's trying to play with her, which he always tries to play with her.
01:32:52
And she's like, I've never played with you. This is not going to happen, but I won't hate you.
01:32:56
Yeah, I'll be patient, but I'm not doing it. Get away from me, please. That's our girl.
01:33:01
Okay, so originally this episode was called The Freshest Recording. Which I love.
01:33:05
But if we were naming it today based on something we said in this episode, perhaps we would call it Morning Positive.
01:33:11
yeah I am not morning positive anymore I don't know who this Georgia was but I mean it was almost
01:33:19
like could I be different now it's like me every year in high school being like I'm gonna be shy
01:33:24
this year it's like sure I I'm going to like the morning right I'm gonna get stuff done like people
01:33:29
do can you imagine if that's what we started doing where it's like ring ring 10 a.m no or I wonder
01:33:35
if like if we got it at the beginning of the day before like the day went awry I would love to do
01:33:40
it earlier than we do now because it's so disarming to drive here and home in other people's
01:33:46
rush hour from their actual jobs. So it'd be great if we could do it at like one-third year or two,
01:33:51
but that would never happen. We would just keep pushing it and pushing it. It just wouldn't happen.
01:33:55
What if instead we get you a briefcase? Remember back to that? I have one. What? Well, should we do the thing we said we were going to do six months ago and get
01:34:03
briefcases to bring or I'll go get one too? I have one. Can you find one? Can we? And we'll present?
01:34:07
Okay. Tell me when you have yours and I'll bring mine. Okay, great. Sorry, back to the titling. We could also do the title Sincere Vague Postulating, which is what Georgia talks about what we do on this podcast as she tries to remember a description of a show she likes. It's a really good synopsis of this show.
01:34:27
I stand by. Yeah. Or we could do our own phone numbers because we're so proud to know our own childhood phone numbers.
01:34:34
If you want to dial my childhood number, I can tell you both of them right now. Does your dad still use it?
01:34:40
No, because he's on his cell phone. There's no landline anymore. Uh-oh. Let's keep it a secret.
01:34:45
Okay. You've got to keep some stuff to yourself in podcasting. No, I want to lay it all on the field and then run into the sea.
01:34:52
Okay, that's been this week's episode of Rewind. We'll say goodbye from 2017. I've got to go to work.
01:35:01
Okay, that's right. You have to go to work. Oh, my God. Isn't that weird? This is coming out in two hours.
01:35:06
Sorry for the delay. I'm sure we're going to get, I'm sure Stephen's going to get, and already has gotten lots of
01:35:11
messages. When we were texting yesterday about, is it okay if we do it in the morning?
01:35:15
And Stephen's like, yeah, but it's going to be late and people get upset. You know, we should let them know.
01:35:19
And then we, and then I said, okay, just tell them it's your fault. Stephen. David.
01:35:26
Tell them you did it. Stephen. It's all me. Stephen. Elvis can't meow on this one.
01:35:32
I know. Where's the kitten? So you can hit it in the face. I was going to make her meow.
01:35:40
Listen, I love her. Fucking Dottie. She's an angel baby. Once Elvis is home, we'll...
01:35:44
Hold good thoughts in your mind and prayers for Elvis for his quick recovery. Yeah.
01:35:50
So you can come back and eat cookies and meow with us soon. And until we see you again, stay sexy.
01:35:56
And don't get murdered. Bye. Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
01:36:06
With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.
01:36:11
You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder. Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.
01:36:19
Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.
01:36:25
Goodbye! You know that fantasy where you run into your ex while looking impossibly cute and wildly unbothered?
01:36:32
Hill House makes the perfect dress for that moment. Or if you're just running errands.
01:36:37
Hill House Home is the brand behind the viral nap dress, known for its signature smocking, ultra flattering fit, and comfort that makes it a favorite for just about everyone.
01:36:46
Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway, and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in Hill House.
01:36:53
These dresses are the definition of versatile. Perfect for running errands in the morning and stylish enough for dinner or a party that night.
01:37:00
And it's not all they carry. They started with bedding back in 2016 And now you find bathrobes pajamas children clothes and maternity all with the cutest prints And it so true the hardest time picking out one nap dress
01:37:12
because the prints are so dreamy and beautiful. But now that I have it, I'm going to wear it all
01:37:17
day, every day. I'm going to throw on my leather jacket at night and look like a total badass.
01:37:22
Cowboy boots or cute heels, whatever it is, this nap dress can make it look classy. You look like
01:37:27
that classy lady you see at the airport. Hill House makes fun fashion that makes you feel good.
01:37:32
Get 15% off your first order of $100 or more at hillhousehome.com with code MURDER15.
01:37:38
That's MURDER15 for 15% off at hillhousehome.com. Goodbye. If audiobooks are your thing, or if you've been meaning to listen to more of them,
01:37:47
you should check out a podcast called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn.
01:37:53
Each episode spotlights standout audiobooks on Audible across all kinds of genres.
01:37:58
Sci-fi, comedy, romance, thrillers, and more. with Cal talking to guests who help break down what makes each story worth listening to.
01:38:04
It's a fun, easy way to discover your next great audiobook. Check out Earsay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:38:13
Goodbye!