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00:02:52
Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff.
00:03:01
And today we are very excited. We have an amazing journalist, producer, educator who is here with us.
00:03:08
She is the co-founder of NPR's Radio Ambulante, and she heads her own multilingual podcast
00:03:13
production company, Adonde Media. And she's the creator and host of Exactly Right Media's first bilingual podcast,
00:03:20
Two-Face John of God, which follows the rise and fall of a celebrated Brazilian spiritual healer who built a holy empire and the criminal activity that made it possible and the powerful network of believers who protect him even to this day.
00:03:34
Please welcome Martina Castro. Yay! Yay! So excited to be here. Yeah, you being here is incredible because that means it's happening.
00:03:43
Yeah, it really is. It's happening. Finally. It's been three years. Is that safe?
00:03:49
I mean, truly, it was pitched internally. We did the math in 2022. Oh, wow. I mean, just that's like the initial germ of the idea.
00:03:59
And then us like finding you, pitching it to you guys, us working on the development.
00:04:05
And like, let's make sure this is like a good story. I mean, goodness, the phases.
00:04:10
Life has changed. The world has changed. I mean, we're different people now. 2022.
00:04:16
I know. When we first met, I remember we went to a Christmas party and it was one of those things where like walking in, it kind of uncomfortable.
00:04:24
It was like a business Christmas party. And then across the room, we see Martina and we were just like by your side.
00:04:31
And it was like, it was that feeling of like, oh, thank God this is the person we're working with.
00:04:36
Because we'd already had like. We had just signed. Yes. And I remember we were really early, which was to the party.
00:04:42
You don't do that. But we did it. And I was so excited because I recognized some other people who were there, but then, but I didn't really know anyone.
00:04:49
And then we locked eyes. And at first it was a little awkward because it's like we hadn't met in person yet, but immediately I felt like calm.
00:04:57
Okay, this is a real person. We can talk about all the things. We talked about a lot of things.
00:05:01
Yes, we did. I was just felt like that human warmth that you really want. That's exactly how I felt about you, where it was like this person who, you know, the intro that I just gave you is like badass bitch.
00:05:11
Thank you. You know, girl boss, whatever. and Martina's just sitting there like,
00:05:15
I'm so embarrassed. We were here first. Well, I think this is just true about podcast people.
00:05:19
Like we are extroverts sometimes, maybe when there's a microphone or when we're doing our work.
00:05:25
But like, I feel like there's an introvert in all of us because otherwise we'd be doing something else, right?
00:05:31
And journalists too. You're so used to like kind of being in the background and observing.
00:05:35
It's so bizarre. It's actually like a little bit of a conflict because you do have to talk to people.
00:05:41
I remember being so shy. and so scared like my the first press conference right to go and like shove a mic in front of like
00:05:48
I don't know like a presidential candidate or or some you know really important people
00:05:53
but you just do it because the work I guess like there some internal perfectionist pressure that like gets you over the hump of the shy kid The shy kids in all of us
00:06:05
I really believe we're all kind of little shy kids. Well, you kind of were a little shy
00:06:09
when you were pitching this and we had all these choices of who could host it. And it was like, this person would be great
00:06:16
and that person would be great. And then Martina's also like, also I'll do it if you want me.
00:06:20
And I was like, yes, have her do it. It's her show. It's her thing. She knows how to do this.
00:06:25
Like, why would we have anybody else but you, the creator, do it? I just, you know, it's like this thing of just not wanting to be presumptuous and like really, I'm really cool with anybody doing it.
00:06:35
Like, I really am a producer at heart. I'm not like when I started in journalism, it was like everybody wanted to be in front of the mic and everybody wanted to be in a reporter.
00:06:43
And I was like, can I just learn how to be the person in the background who makes it all happen?
00:06:47
And I remember some like career journalist looking at me and being like, you're going to make it far and you're going to make it fast.
00:06:53
because nobody wants to do what you want to do. It's hard. But I do think like you're that position
00:07:01
when you got those amazing interviews, the people, the victims, and the people that actually went through this story,
00:07:07
everything was connected in this way where it wasn't just kind of like and some outside person pulling you through
00:07:13
chapter by chapter. It's Martina's story. You were the one that went and got it,
00:07:17
found the people, all of that. And you can just really feel it in those episodes.
00:07:21
Oh, yeah. I'm so glad. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about, like, what drew you to this story?
00:07:26
It's a fascinating story. Like, how did you find it? What made you interested in it?
00:07:30
Well, you know, I had a team that we were all looking for stories. And at the time, we were like, all right, true crime.
00:07:36
It's like a thing. Like, we had done a heist podcast, which was really fun. And, you know, it's technically true crime.
00:07:43
And it was like light. You know, nobody died. It was just kind of, I mean, you know, people got robbed or whatever.
00:07:49
Yeah, we get it. We get it. Okay, you get it. We know this very well. And I was like, let's keep like looking for something that's not quite on the nose true crime, but is really us.
00:08:00
And like our company from the beginning, my goal was let's get out of the U.S. Let's remind Americans that there are stories that are really compelling to you that are not necessarily in your language and told, you know, maybe in many languages.
00:08:14
And it happened outside the U.S. but touch you, you know, because we're all interconnected in the end.
00:08:18
Oprah's at the middle of all of everyone's lives. Once I found that Oprah was in it, I was like, that's done.
00:08:23
It's done. Done. Check. Like, let's just figure this out. So I greenlit it once I really could, like, click all those boxes, you know?
00:08:30
Like, I really wanted it to, like, have some—it had to be international. It had to—I mean, by virtue of being multilingual, but I really was looking for people who—some people who spoke English because we did want to have it be primarily in English.
00:08:45
But it touched the U.S. somehow. It had to be a story that wasn't overdone, you know?
00:08:49
Like, what are we bringing to it? That hasn't been done already. Yeah. But might be a touch point.
00:08:55
Like, it's not so obscure. I mean, it's hard. We have to check a lot of boxes, honestly, because, you know, I still think we have a really high bar for the kinds of things we're willing as Americans to consume that are outside of the U.S., right?
00:09:09
Yeah. But this one really did. I mean, it's about a spiritual guru who's a healer.
00:09:18
So that already got me because it's not someone who's necessarily going to help you find your like salvation after life.
00:09:27
It is someone who's going to help you in your time of deepest need. Either for you or your loved one.
00:09:33
So that's just like, oh, I want that at some point one day. You know, like I could just imagine myself there very, very quickly.
00:09:41
And, you know, it's based in Brazil, which Brazilian culture and it's really compelling to me.
00:09:47
it's also really a little unknown. And so I kind of was intrigued to understand a little bit more
00:09:51
what was happening because it's really not just one religious belief. It's a mix of beliefs that
00:09:59
are coming together in this human being. And then the Oprah thing, I was just like, wait,
00:10:03
this is not just some obscure dude. He is being promoted and speaking at some of the most
00:10:09
prestigious platforms you have as a spiritual leader. What? And then you find out everything
00:10:16
he did and we're going to avoid spoilers, but my goodness, we know that he did quite a lot.
00:10:23
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00:12:25
That's code CRY at G-R-U-N-S dot C-O. It was so interesting that there were so many people you interviewed that were not from there that came to find him specifically.
00:12:37
Did you do you have belief that like someone can be a healer? Because being a spiritual guru is one thing.
00:12:44
You know, it's like they can promise you something and it's not tangible. But being like, I'll fix the thing.
00:12:49
That's like a big promise. Yeah, it is. But it's not that far. Like, you know, from my cultural consciousness, it's incredibly close for people who are from Brazil.
00:13:00
Like that every Brazilian I spoke to was like, this is not weird for us. Yeah. But then like, I don't know, my dad, like he would rather go see.
00:13:09
He goes to see this guy that he calls the hueseiro. So a hueseiro is hueseo bone, the bone guy.
00:13:16
OK, so you'd think maybe he's a chiropractor, but he calls himself the bone guy.
00:13:20
And he would rather go see that guy who promises to fix, you know, his arthritis than to go see a Western doctor.
00:13:28
And so it's not that far from me to imagine a person who's like a lay person, not a doctor, not a studied physician, who has some healing abilities.
00:13:41
And I don't think that that's like that weird for most – anyone who believes in any new agey stuff.
00:13:45
Like it's not that far from our beliefs. Like it goes deep later, you know, but on the surface, that's like kind of all of us could maybe believe that there's a man out there with the ability to heal things that are incurable.
00:14:01
I think you brought that up a lot when we would like go through the scripts and going talking about those interviews where it's really important, which I really liked.
00:14:09
It was really important to you to like keep on underlining that this is very normal in this culture.
00:14:14
These aren't people who fell for something. These aren't people who weren't using their logical mind.
00:14:19
It's like the promise plus the culture that was already there plus the desperation of anybody in a situation where it's like you're learning that someone has stage four cancer and the Western doctors are telling you they don't have anything else for you.
00:14:34
Of course, these like it's a person taking advantage of that position, that desperation, and then the belief that's kind of already there.
00:14:42
Yeah. You go in there and you're just kind of like, oh, my God, it's working and it's working for other people. It could work for me.
00:14:48
Yes. Yes. The testimonials, I think, go very far because once you get there, I mean, even there was this journalist that we interviewed who went to just see what it was like, this Australian journalist.
00:14:58
And he's like, there's all these people milling about in white, you know, kind of like saying they were cured by him at some point.
00:15:05
You're like, well, maybe, maybe they were, you know, they show you their papers.
00:15:09
They show you like their x-rays and their documents saying like how they before they had this and now they have this.
00:15:17
Like they believe so fervently. And then there were people who were just taking a chance.
00:15:23
You know, some of the people who got wrapped up in this were just at the end of their ability.
00:15:28
Like no doctor was willing to continue helping them. It was like, that's it. There's no more answers.
00:15:34
Maybe let's just give this a try. Like, let's just see, you know. And, you know, it's called Two-Faced.
00:15:41
So what was really interesting to me was to explore that kind of human being. I mean, I'm like both of you, like, you know, when I listen to your show, just the exploring of the human mind and the capacity for a human being to do some really dark things.
00:15:58
It's hard for me. I want to believe in the goodness of every human. Like, and I think a lot of us do. But there are people out there doing really horrible things. And so there's something really compelling to me about a person who's able to live a double life and show you one thing and really be so convincing.
00:16:17
Yeah. To the level of being like he he healed presidents, Supreme Court justices, really famous celebrities and people of all walks of life. Doctors have gone and been like, no, he's real, you know. And and then this other side that and and I learn I feel like what I've learned is that they don't get away with it by themselves.
00:16:41
It's not like that other face, that other side is only they know. Right. It's not.
00:16:48
There's actually a lot of people who know and who see that other side. And part of the, I don't want to say magic, but the manipulation, the incredible ability of this kind of human being is to really get everyone to play ball and just kind of go along with it.
00:17:06
Yeah, well, because it's one thing to be like, I'm going to promise you this healing and to get you out of this very desperate situation.
00:17:12
It's another thing to then, oh, now you're here. I'm going to lock a door, take advantage, you know, all the darkness.
00:17:19
And it's bad enough that he's not actually doing the things he's doing. Or maybe it's maybe working for certain people.
00:17:26
And that is an interesting thing of like there are people who really do a test that like I went in there.
00:17:31
I got this, you know, he told me the thing to do. I got this procedure. It didn't hurt.
00:17:36
And suddenly I was OK. Well, what's interesting is that I think we set out to never decide on that one.
00:17:43
I was like, you know, I feel like we're going to alienate people if we're trying to actually figure out whether he's a real healer or not.
00:17:50
Like a yes or no answer. Exactly. That's not the point. For me I was like no let like actually maybe pretend let like let believe that he actually does have a power Because many of the people who came to speak with us like the survivors still believe he he has this power but that he was
00:18:05
corrupted or that he used it for bad purposes but like i i didn't want to put make that the purpose
00:18:13
because that's that really wasn't interesting as interesting to me he might actually have some
00:18:18
gift. It's really about how he presented himself in very, very, very, very different ways
00:18:25
in order to get away with some heinous things. And that idea of like you have the power, then you're building a little spa, you're building
00:18:33
a little commune, you build this little city, it grows and grows. People also start making money
00:18:38
off of it, not just you. Then it just becomes that thing where it's like too big to fail,
00:18:44
But we're talking about spiritual healing. So it's like it gets more and more. I don't know.
00:18:50
Like the story itself, when we first started talking about it, just like how can this be real and how can it have gone on for as long as it did?
00:18:58
So long. So long. Four decades. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. But it's exactly what you're talking about.
00:19:05
Like a really small, middle of nowhere town that thrived thanks to this tourism.
00:19:10
And the international element was really compelling because for a while he was just healing people in Brazil.
00:19:17
But there was a turn. There was a moment where he had some ingenious ideas to grow.
00:19:23
And because there are many other spiritual healers in Brazil, many that are like him and do kind of the same types of healing.
00:19:29
But they didn't get as famous as he did. So he was like smart enough to be like, no, what's really going to make this take off is foreigners.
00:19:38
Yeah. And so he had people who, like the first few people who ended up going, ended up becoming tour guides.
00:19:44
He would like, when they came up, so there's like the healing process, the treatment.
00:19:49
It was really like a variety of activities that happened at this compound called La Casa.
00:19:55
But the big thing, the main event, was like this line of people waiting to see him.
00:20:01
And you would see him for like, you know, a few seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds.
00:20:05
And some people, when they were, I mean, one of the people we talked to claims that they were spies.
00:20:13
You know, there were people, helpers, who would be like, oh, he speaks English. Oh, he speaks French.
00:20:17
And then they would be like, so they'd get up to speak to him and he'd be like, he'd do his thing where he's channeling a spirit.
00:20:23
And he's like, your mission now is to bring people from France or to bring people from the United States or whatever.
00:20:30
And so they would become, I mean, and they felt so special and honored and chosen, right?
00:20:37
I mean, that's part of it. And they would bring people and they could charge. They were allowed to make money off of this.
00:20:42
So, you know, then other people would become tour guides who had come with those tour guides.
00:20:46
And it just was like a, it just really spread very quickly. Yeah, many, many different countries touched by this movement.
00:20:53
It's got kind of the culty vibe going on, but also like a multi-level marketing thing, pyramid scheme.
00:20:59
Yes, yes, yes. But with people's health, and that's what we're most vulnerable about is like, my dad is sick.
00:21:05
Can you help me? You know, that's just right. It's the part that sickens you the most, you know?
00:21:10
Yeah. That's the part that sickens you the most. Those eye surgeries. I mean, like, let's get to that part.
00:21:16
There's details, and maybe that's like a spoiler alert, but like, there are parts of this when we would like be listening to tape that Martino would send or whatever, and everyone's like, I don't.
00:21:26
It's another one of those things. These procedures are so harrowing. Oof. Listening to people's stories about them.
00:21:33
It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, we went back and forth on when to put one of those scenes, but, like, obviously one had to be in there.
00:21:39
Like, I think we ended up putting it in the beginning of episode one. It's not too bad either.
00:21:43
There's a little mention of an I thing. Thank you. Everything else is, yes. It's, like, really bad if you want to watch it.
00:21:47
Like, if you want to Google it, go YouTube. Okay. But, like, most of you are not going to do that, probably.
00:21:52
Right. And we describe it, but it's not gory. But it was hard to watch. I'll tell you, like, I had to write, you know, that part of the script.
00:22:01
And I was like, I don't think I can watch this one more time. You know, like, it is just, it's intense.
00:22:06
But still people are coming out the other side being like, pain free. That was an amazing experience where you're just like, what, how, how does a person get to that point where that's the experience they're having on that end?
00:22:19
We talked a lot about that, too. It's not quite, we don't talk about it much in the series, but like that placebo effect was very present.
00:22:26
Like I did talk about it on a lot of the interviews. Like, well, what was happening there?
00:22:31
Because the treatment is, you know, getting to see him. And then he would like either send you to like this hall where he would heal people by channeling spirits all at once.
00:22:43
So you'd be sitting and praying and then he or meditating and he would be channeling spirits.
00:22:48
And he would heal everybody in that room. Plus anyone who wrote in like a letter or who brought a picture of someone.
00:22:54
He would heal people like thousands of miles away. That was the idea, that he was channeling spirits that could heal at any distance.
00:23:01
Or you could ask for a physical surgery. And, you know, one of the scholars we spoke with, she was like basically living with the movement at the Casa for a while.
00:23:13
And she reports hearing him say that it was just to get people to believe. That it was a spectacle that was required to get foreigners to really believe the spirits could do things.
00:23:24
Because he did invisible surgeries on you. But, like, the visible surgery was no anesthetics.
00:23:32
Like, bare hand, man. I mean, no gloves. Yes. The most doctoral thing he did was have, like, you know, a scalpel.
00:23:42
A little, like, tin can with some water. And he would, like, kind of rinse it off and then scrape your eyeball.
00:23:48
There were, like, shades of lobotomy going on that I was so uncomfortable. But then, yeah, you would see these and, like, people would be smiling.
00:23:56
They'd bleed a little bit, but not massive amounts of blood. So people were like, whoa.
00:24:00
What's happening? Like, and he would just stitch you up right there, you know? No one would get infected.
00:24:05
Like, that was the other thing. Who knows? Right. Yeah. But, like, a lot of people believe that somehow these surgeries would happen and people would get better.
00:24:14
Yeah. Well, you're not going to be the one person who's like, actually, two weeks later, you know?
00:24:18
This swelled up quite a bit. Like, it kind of relies on you not complaining and not saying, not being the one fucking person.
00:24:27
Yeah. Yeah. Which a lot of those things do. That's kind of the thing of, are you going to say the old psychology test, there's smoke coming out from under the door?
00:24:35
Are you going to be the one that says, hey, is anyone else seeing this if everyone else acts like they're not?
00:24:40
Like, it's tough. It's tough. And you're already in the position of you want it to be real.
00:24:44
You need it to be real. You've gone to Brazil to make it to be. Exactly. You've gone to so much lengths.
00:24:50
It's, like, expensive. You're surrounded by people. And the vibe of the town, everyone talked about it.
00:24:56
Like, just this euphoria. because not that it was joyous, so to speak, but more like I'm with my people type of vibe
00:25:04
because a lot of sick people, but people who maybe have the same illness as you.
00:25:09
And you would sit across these cafes that were like where you could get a flat white.
00:25:13
And, you know, it was like very international too. At some point it like was catering to an international crowd,
00:25:18
like vegetarian meals and like all the things. And then you'd be speaking to strangers and be like, well, what kind of cancer do you have?
00:25:26
And like, oh, well, I'm taking this. And what did you? He also reportedly would tell people to continue their medical treatment.
00:25:35
Like we have found cases of people claiming the opposite. But within the belief system, it wasn't like you were supposed to just give up everything.
00:25:44
It was like this is supposed to treat. And this is where it gets me. It's supposed to treat the inner illness of your soul that led to the manifestation of this physical ailment, right?
00:26:00
I mean, I don't know if I believe that right now, but there have been times in my life where I was like, yeah, you know, if I am really tired or there's something, you know, you can imagine that if you're not well, like soul-wise, that your body would get sick.
00:26:14
So it's not like it doesn't make sense. That totally makes sense to me. Like a negativity that just manifests into whatever.
00:26:23
Yeah. And then we treat the symptoms instead of treating the core, blah, blah, blah.
00:26:27
Exactly. So they were like, no, we're treating the core issue. And the core issue often had to do with your past lives.
00:26:33
So there's a little bit of that, too, like of your karma. And, you know, one of our survivors was told that her father was sick because she and her father were linked in a past life where she did, you know, they were involved in an altercation and he was being punished for that past life thing.
00:26:52
You know, it just different shades of different kinds of belief systems, new age belief systems, Buddhism, things that are not that inaccessible that you're like, well, maybe.
00:27:07
Yeah. That's all he needs. He just needs a little window of you to be like, maybe.
00:27:12
And the Western people, it sounds like Catholicism. There's something inherently wrong with you.
00:27:16
If you're sick, what did you do to deserve it? You need to repent. Like that, you know, it's tapping into a lot of those kinds of things.
00:27:25
Then it's, you know, suddenly you see Oprah's talking about it. Oprah's like giving it a platform of what is this?
00:27:31
Is this real? and suddenly there's all the people in America who don't have a doctor who can't afford insurance,
00:27:36
all the things where they're like, we need an option. And that kind of like terrible, perfect storm.
00:27:43
Convergence, yeah. And that was the peak of his popularity when Oprah went. And she went.
00:27:48
I mean, it's one thing to cover, which she did, cover from afar or send a reporter or send someone.
00:27:53
But she went herself and with a whole film crew. She got treatment. Wow. She said famously, I don't know what happened, but I felt something.
00:28:02
You know, something along those lines. And so, yeah, you see that and you're like, I mean, I was I mean, I guess I don't quite as much, but I really for a long part of my 20s and 30s was a big follower of Oprah.
00:28:13
Yeah. Like read all her, you know, her magazines. I was like. She legitimizes anything.
00:28:19
Yeah. Which is like a lot of pressure. It is a lot of pressure, but it is a lot of pressure. And I, you know, I don't envy her position, but I don't know. It was a really it was a it was a risk.
00:28:31
And we know at least that we just spoke to at least one person who went because she saw it on Oprah.
00:28:36
Yeah. Yeah. That part, we're talking about the Oprah part. We're just like, should we be talking about the Oprah part?
00:28:44
I know, should we be talking about the Oprah part? But I do think it's like whether it's Oprah, whether it's whoever, you know, connected America to this and made it kind of culturally a norm, putting it there and then needing to talk about that where it's like we were in a state then and maybe no better now.
00:29:00
where people are looking for these answers and looking for these options and they need them.
00:29:06
So it's like the need is valid and also the curiosity is valid and the journalism is valid and important.
00:29:13
It's like if there's some answer somewhere for people, it would be great to know it.
00:29:17
But then it's just like, of course, 2020 vision where after the fact you're just like, well, there's a whole other thing that's happening here that is worst case scenario.
00:29:27
And there's also we saw, you know, I get it. I used to produce a weekly show. I know what it is to get into like making these shows. But I mean, many, many journalists just kept repeating the same thing that everybody else said.
00:29:43
And some of the incredible authors that we talked to who really dug into his, like, origin story, for example, found so many inconsistencies.
00:29:52
I mean he will tell you a different age depending on who you hear it from of when he had his like epiphany moment of that he had visions or he had a gift You know we found I think it was like 13 and 17
00:30:05
I'm like, so when you see these kinds of inconsistencies and you just chalk it up to, well, he's, he barely knows how to read and write.
00:30:13
And he's from a really small town. And I don't know, there was a lot of a little bit of exoticism there, like where we willingly, I'm sure out of respect, frankly,
00:30:24
I'm going to give the best benefit of the doubt to the people who just were like, well, we're not going to dig into that because he's telling us this.
00:30:30
And he is from another culture and he, you know, and class differences and all that.
00:30:34
But out of respect, for whatever reason, you know, gloss over some things. It is also, I'm sure, a little bit of the appeal.
00:30:43
You know, we believe that these answers come from someone who doesn't know how to read or write in the middle of nowhere, Brazil.
00:30:50
Like that feels true in the Hollywood version of this story, right? It's best case scenario for the Hollywood version.
00:30:57
It's like it wouldn't be fun if it was a doctor. No, no fun. It's like it's got to be the poor guy.
00:31:02
But also do you want to talk about because there were, you know, as you produce this podcast and as you talk to people, there were little things that happened that were like, wait a second.
00:31:12
is because there is that thing where it's like you can't dismiss the power out of hand.
00:31:17
If there's this many people, this many either witnesses or people that are believers,
00:31:22
then there is a little bit of like, what are we talking about here? And there's just some interesting things that happened when you were investigating.
00:31:31
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the most notable ones, and again, I guess this is a little spoilery,
00:31:37
But there was a moment where we're interviewing one of the survivors who's talking about what had happened to her and literally finishes the detailed description.
00:31:49
And the engineer who is over in Brazil is like, wait, wait, wait a second. And I'm like, what was going on?
00:31:55
And I just hear a lot of Portuguese. And they're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. The power went out.
00:32:01
And I was like, what? But it didn't really go out. It was like just the recording equipment stopped right at that moment.
00:32:11
And the first thing this person says is, see, that's John of God. Can you believe?
00:32:18
Yeah. And I was like, what? What do you mean John of God? And she's like, oh, it always happens.
00:32:23
It always happens. The electricity goes out or something like people get in a car accident or somebody gets robbed.
00:32:31
You know, it's like he just does these things. Wow. And we were laughing about it kind of.
00:32:37
And thankfully, I had a backup recording going, so we didn't lose it. But, you know, all the lights go off.
00:32:46
It was the exact same thing. Like, oh, no. Just a little bit, like, interesting to be stepping into that world.
00:32:53
And then it is like, it's not black and white. No. It just isn't. No. The prosecutor really like – so our series really covers not just the rise of this individual, but all that it took to reveal this other side of his, right?
00:33:08
And the heroes are very much the survivors who were brave enough to go against the grain and literally having no one support them and come out.
00:33:18
But the journalists who sought them out and gave them a platform, the prosecutor who went and really took this case into new law, frankly, in Brazil territory.
00:33:31
And they all face these difficulties. Like one journalist was trying to convince a person to come on her show.
00:33:38
And she's like, no, no, no. My car got stolen last night. I think that was John of God.
00:33:42
I think this is a sign I can't go. I can't go. The prosecutor would interview people, get their testimonies, and be like, so what did John of God say to you then?
00:33:51
And she's like, no, no, no, I wasn't talking to John of God. I was talking to the entity.
00:33:55
And he's like, but isn't that John of God? No, no, no, that's the entity. And he's like, okay.
00:34:00
So, you know, you can't even get a straight testimony because people are very anchored in these beliefs.
00:34:06
And you have to come from that level of understanding and respect and appreciation of that.
00:34:12
Even when they want to speak out. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I know. I know. Hello, beautiful.
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That's code CRY at G-R-U-N-S dot C-O. Speaking of the justice, do you think justice was served in this story?
00:35:36
Such a big question. I am on the side of yes. Yes, because so many, I mean, again, I don't want to give it away, but so many people just keep going.
00:35:52
Yeah. You know and now we know Now we know who this man is truly The legal system has risen to the occasion And we can be more aware you know
00:36:05
It's not quite, I think, the ending everybody wanted. Right. Especially the real believers, I'm sure.
00:36:13
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I think they found their way, too, to continue believing, honestly.
00:36:19
One researcher says the flexibility that John of God built into his belief system, which brought so many people in, has enabled it to continue living without him, which probably he didn't want.
00:36:33
But there are people still going to La Casa. They're still, you know, doing their healing sessions.
00:36:39
There were other people doing healing sessions there. So it wasn't just him. And they still believe it's a holy place.
00:36:44
And it goes on. But I think we can draw so many lessons from it that I believe it's a win in the end.
00:36:52
Yeah, it's a certain type of personality that is like, this is the I'm here. I'm going to give you all the answers.
00:36:59
I speak to God. I speak for God. All of that stuff. It's like anytime we're hearing stuff like that, it's like, all right, let's get our checklist out of what's actually happening here.
00:37:09
And it is this obsession with power. It is ultimately that corruption where then those relationships are not just—it's not just you're being lied to about the services that are being rendered, but you're now in a whole other area and a whole other danger.
00:37:26
And then the people that are being victimized really get chosen because they're the ones that aren't heard and won't be heard.
00:37:34
Yeah. No, I mean, really, truly. It was very systematic. They were chosen. Yeah.
00:37:40
For their vulnerability, which is just horrible. One of the healers who worked with him actually spoke with us and was very outspoken about what you just said, like that he perverted the belief system.
00:37:55
When someone is saying they're the only one, that doesn't go with their belief system, actually.
00:38:00
It goes contrary to what they were teaching because he would train people to be mediums.
00:38:05
And so it didn't make sense for there to be only one medium. And then that power grab, that sort of desire to be around celebrities and have like be famous, that's what tipped him off.
00:38:16
He's like, hmm, there's something weird here. Yeah. And he's a believer, like still to this day.
00:38:21
So also incredibly brave to be able to, in hindsight, be like, shoot, I saw this.
00:38:29
And I knew something was off, but, you know, really believed in what I was doing and didn't want to give that up.
00:38:37
Yeah. Yeah. So you worked on this for like maybe four years. So once you deliver your final episode,
00:38:45
how does your life change? Do you go on a vacation right away? Do you start the next
00:38:49
series with some other company? Like, how do you do it? Is it all lined up? That's a good question. I mean, things have changed in podcasting just in these last four
00:38:58
years quite a bit. I used to have too many projects going on at once. And so it was a real
00:39:04
luxury to get to work on this as closely as I did. And yeah, I guess like a few months before
00:39:11
it launches, I start kind of coming up with new ideas and thinking about what's next.
00:39:16
Limited series are really hard to make now, but it's what I love to do. So it's a little bit of a
00:39:23
like, well, how can I adapt to the new world of podcasting, Adonde as well, and be like meeting
00:39:30
the industry at the moment. You know, what do audiences really want right now? And I'm still
00:39:35
figuring that out. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I know they want my favorite murder.
00:39:39
But the Spanish language part of it is really cool, too. Like, that's really exciting for us
00:39:45
here to be able to put that out and have your first. It's awesome. Yeah. Awesome. I mean, I
00:39:51
don't want to like oversell, but I really think people are going to love this because
00:39:56
there's just not that much out there right now. Not many people are taking these risks and
00:40:00
companies. And so, I mean, that's why I just admire everything that Exactly Right put into
00:40:06
this production because it's really betting on us, which feels good. And I say us as like
00:40:12
Spanish speakers where they do consume podcasts in Spanish. There are so many of us out there
00:40:18
dying to hear documentaries, chat shows, all the kinds of shows, true crime. It doesn't,
00:40:24
And, you know, I think we're pigeonholed a lot of the times. And so I think they're going to flock to this kind of storytelling because there's just not as much out there.
00:40:32
It's a really amazing moment to be putting this out. And, you know, it grew really exponentially because people are bilingual.
00:40:43
So they are listening in English. You know, they're listening to all the shows. They know what the podcast medium is capable of delivering.
00:40:50
And so when certain companies, media companies started investing in making podcasts in Spanish, it was like, okay, here we go.
00:40:58
And they didn't take the lead up time, like the grow time that I think we needed in the U.S. to like really build an ecosystem, kind of figure out what we wanted to make.
00:41:07
Like we saw just podcasts change so much before Serial or before, you know, some of these like big boom moments.
00:41:14
And they just went fast, much faster. So I think it's one of the fastest growing demographics in the U.S.
00:41:22
And so we'll see. We'll see. It's so exciting. And it was exciting to like just have the general idea of like we should have Spanish language podcasts.
00:41:31
We should be trying to tap into that audience and whatever. And that was like we were introduced to you guys like within a couple months.
00:41:39
It was like not only is there a production company out there doing it, doing it great, like with this long history.
00:41:45
I mean like you been around for a while So it was just so cool to be able to immediately meet a person that was not just like doing it and capable but like you just so excellent Martina Oh thank you Karen And you such a good host Such a compelling listening for this show I just so excited
00:42:05
Thank you. Thank you. I've hosted a bunch of things really randomly like this. You know, because I'm always like, no, I'm the EP.
00:42:13
No, I've got to be the editor. I'm really an editor at heart. You know, I love helping other people bring their babies to life in podcast land.
00:42:21
But yeah, I just have fallen into hosting and I really love it. It's been really nice in this series to explore a new voice, like try something different and put a little bit of myself in there.
00:42:33
It didn't feel so personal because I'm not from Brazil. It's, you know, but it felt close to home in terms of the subject matter because, I mean, I don't know, being a woman with a daughter, being from that part of the world, being a person who likes to, I don't know that I'm, that psychology, Chess, you mentioned.
00:42:54
I don't know that I'd be the one to be like, oh, look, there's smoke. I mean, maybe because I'm a producer and I like to be like on top of things.
00:43:00
But like I'm kind of late to the game when I realize something's off. Like I don't want to believe that someone's capable of doing something wrong to me.
00:43:10
And I've noticed this about myself. I've gotten better about it. My husband is amazing at being like, I don't know about that guy.
00:43:18
Or like, well, why did you do that? Why did you talk to that? And it's like, you're right.
00:43:22
Like, why? Why? Why? And I just am just too friendly or something. And so it's been it was close to home, the material, this idea that what these women went through.
00:43:32
Like I just it would be really hard for me to come out and be like, no, actually, this is all wrong.
00:43:40
Yeah, that's such a rare thing to say. I feel like so many of us are like, I would have never like the public about true crime is like, I would have screamed and you didn't.
00:43:48
It's like, no, you wouldn't have. No. But I like being like, I wouldn't have, the reality is, yeah, you would have pulled your car over or you would have, you know, believed what this person was telling you because why would they lie?
00:44:00
Exactly. And I just think I'm just, my brain takes a second to be like, wait, are you really doing this to me?
00:44:06
Like, I just, you know, there's scenes we're not going to get into, but in this series where I'm like, yeah, I probably wouldn't have opened my mouth either.
00:44:15
I wouldn't have said anything until a little too late. Like maybe five minutes after I'd be like, whoa, I think that just happened.
00:44:22
Right. Or like one person or two people stand up and then you can. Yeah. But if the whole room is like facing forward and chanting the chant and doing the thing and then you walk in next, it's like it takes so much to be the person that goes, hold on, everybody.
00:44:35
Turn that music off. Wait a second. Yeah, all wrong. Yes. Yes. This is a big scam.
00:44:40
Like whatever, you know. So that just the whole series. Like to this, I mean, right now, like I like get in my in my feelings about it because I'm just like to be that person, to be there, to be a version of and then have the wherewithal or strength of bravery to then speak out.
00:44:58
It's just like, oh, my God, you're my hero. Yeah. It's really something. Inspiring, really.
00:45:03
It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. And you not only made this beautiful podcast with us and you were such a great partner, but then you actually agreed to fly hours and hours to come and do this episode with us.
00:45:17
Yeah. Which is so nice of you. Total hours, what was it again on the plane? I mean, 17 hours if you include the layover.
00:45:26
I know. In Miami. I know. Oh, my God. I know. Throughout this whole thing, I think before we started, I lived here in L.A.
00:45:35
Yeah. And then for work reasons, we went to Argentina, where my husband is from.
00:45:40
And yeah, so I came from there. Well, actually, technically, I came from Uruguay, where my family's from, because that's where we've been for the holidays.
00:45:48
And we've just been there for extended time. And I brought a gift. A Uruguayan gift?
00:45:54
Uruguayan gift. Well, it's funny because I could have brought this from Argentina because, of course, they always have the same thing we do.
00:46:00
We compete on everything. And so they also have this cookie called Alfajor. Alfajor is what it's called. It's like a cakey cookie with caramel in the middle, which we call dulce de leche. This is a very special brand because it's from La Sierra de Minas, which is where my dad's from in Uruguay. It's on the interior. They're very famous all across Uruguay. But this one is a special sort of like line called Legendary.
00:46:28
And I was like, oh, my God. Come on. If I'm going to bring one to Karen in Georgia, it's going to be the legendary one.
00:46:33
Oh, my God. Thank you. That's so nice of you. Look, look. Here it shows you where it's from.
00:46:38
Oh, look. That's perfect. Well, and also, we have a gift for you because we know you've been away from the States.
00:46:44
That's true. And we heard that one of your favorite things was bagels that you can't get in Argentina the way you wish you could.
00:46:53
That's right. So we brought you some bagels. Oh, my God. Yes. If you want to open this bagel gift.
00:46:58
That is an enormous box of bagels. And it smells so good. Literally under my chair in the airplane.
00:47:06
Oh, my God, with the bow and everything. We'll get you an extra seat on the plane.
00:47:09
I love it. Yes, exactly. An extra seat for my bagel boss box. A boss box. A boss box.
00:47:16
Ooh. Look at the presentation. Look at it. That looks incredible. Is this getting some camera action?
00:47:23
I think probably. Those are huge bagels. Many of them, too. You know, my favorite is everything.
00:47:30
Yeah. See everything right here? Oh, the smell. Right? Our producer, Molly, was like, should I put him in this studio or should I?
00:47:38
And I said, you have to hold them out there because I can smell them like right now.
00:47:41
No. They're so good. This is amazing. Y'all went really out there for me. Thank you so much.
00:47:47
It's legendary. Not quite the same, but you know, I had to come from very far away.
00:47:51
I am so excited for these. Thank you so much for taking the time and making that trip because it—
00:47:57
My pleasure. We just want our audience know you. And they will through, of course, the podcast. But like getting to know you as a person,
00:48:04
I think it's just what you do, you running your company, all the things that you make, like,
00:48:10
it's really an honor to work with somebody like you. And we're so excited to be launching this
00:48:14
podcast with you. Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. It's a true honor for me to be here and to
00:48:19
speak to your audience and share this story. It was a team effort. I know I'm here, but I'm here
00:48:27
We're representing a lot of people behind the scenes, and we're all just so grateful.
00:48:31
Okay. Yay. Let's see. Oh, wait. That's the intro. We didn't even have to look at these cards.
00:48:35
That's hilarious. I know. I can smell them now. I know, right? Should I close it?
00:48:38
No. Okay. Like, I want that cologne, right? I know. Bagel cologne. Some light. That should be a thing.
00:48:45
Garlic. A room spray of bagel. Gosh, we don't even need to go to dinner. Let's just eat bagels and raffajores.
00:48:52
All right. So check out our newest podcast, Two-Faced John of God, in both English and Spanish on February 4th, 2026, with new episodes out on Wednesdays.
00:49:03
And don't judge me for this. You can find the Spanish language RSS feed by searching Dos Caros, Juan de Dios, wherever you get your podcasts.
00:49:11
So please listen subscribe and give it a five review Two John of God thank you so much for being with us Yes it so exciting My pleasure Thank you for having me Yeah Stay sexy And don get murdered
00:49:24
Goodbye. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ah! This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci.
00:49:46
Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Allie Elkin. Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
00:49:52
And follow the show on Instagram at myfavoritemurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:49:59
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