00:00:00
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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room
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and became sought after by patients. He promised to heal them. Instead, he left a trail of broken bodies.
00:00:51
This is a story of greed, betrayal, and a fight for justice. Listen to Dr. Death the Cowboy wherever you get your podcasts
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Terms and conditions apply. See pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder.
00:02:07
That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. And today we're going to beautiful Italy.
00:02:12
I've been practicing my horrible Italian on Karen since I'm going, ah, yes, she's pulling out the chef's kiss.
00:02:20
It's Italian corner. The chef's kiss. Did you preparado café por mi? Yes, I made coffee for you.
00:02:28
Grazie. You're going to do great. Thank you. Right now I'm flashing back to pictures of very patient waiters waiting for me to do that and then being like, madame, I will speak English with you.
00:02:41
It's like, thanks so much. Thank you. They just want to see you sweat a little bit.
00:02:45
Yes. Put some effort into it. Please have some respect for the country you're in.
00:02:49
Yes. And also we're supposed to say, oh, where are you from? you say, I'm from the Republic of California instead of the U.S. Because you're like, I'm
00:02:57
cool. That's right. Speaking of, I feel like obligated that we have to talk about this real
00:03:01
quick. Do I move this off? Yeah, this is getting serious. Okay. We have a lot of listeners that
00:03:07
live in L.A. and that are over 18. And I think we need to make sure we tell them that they have to
00:03:13
vote for mayor. Oh. And they cannot vote for Spencer Pratt. And I know that you're 18. You're
00:03:21
like, I don't give a shit. It doesn't bother me. You have to vote. So you cancel out the people
00:03:25
that are stupid that are voting for him because we know our listeners aren't stupid. They're not
00:03:29
going to vote for him. That's right. But they might not go vote that day. True. That's a great
00:03:34
point to me. Yeah. I also think I will say I believe in the children who are so much smarter
00:03:41
and more active than we ever had to be. Yes. The privilege of apoliticalism from the 90s,
00:03:48
I think about and shiver with how disgusting it is and how much I'd never helped or did anything.
00:03:54
And I think these kids today know what's what. Also, speaking of which, I'm a real believer in Nithya Raman.
00:04:01
She's also running. You know she's amazing because they do everything they can to keep her down.
00:04:06
They do everything they can. Yeah. I mean, that's a debate all on its own. Yeah.
00:04:11
Vote for someone you believe in. Clearly it's not going to be him. We've played around with democracy too much.
00:04:16
Right. And we are now actively doing damage and harm to people every single day with non-action.
00:04:22
Yeah, for sure. I felt like we had to say that just because. And now. And we're back.
00:04:29
And we're back because this is the crazy world we've had to live in where we simultaneously deal with the fall of democracy.
00:04:39
And then, hey, Georgia is excited to go on vacation to the wonderful world of Italy.
00:04:43
I feel like there might have been a glitch in the Matrix and it's freaking me out a little bit.
00:04:47
Right this second? Yeah. Or before we walked in this room. Maybe this room is a time machine.
00:04:51
Who the fuck knows? Or a time capsule or something. But the hot dog phone box is upside down.
00:04:57
And it's freaking me out. You know what it is? What? The other podcasts that shoot in here, they take our stuff down and put other stuff up.
00:05:03
Someone's fucking with us. Who did that? Bridger? You specifically. Bridger? Paul Holes.
00:05:07
Paul Holes did it all. But that's okay. We were going to call him on that phone.
00:05:12
That's really funny. Wait, was this like an Easter egg that he put in to say hey?
00:05:16
No, I don't think Paul did it. I think that it just happened on accident. Paul doesn't clean up after himself.
00:05:20
But he was in here not that long ago. Someone turned the hot dog phone upside down and blew my mind.
00:05:24
Seriously, there's three people crying in the control room right now because of the intensity with which you do that.
00:05:29
No, I love it. I love it. What's up with you? I went to the desert this past weekend for a last minute birthday trip.
00:05:37
Hot Springs? Yes. Because I didn't plan anything. And then I was like, well, I don't I'm not just going to sit here and I might as well go and sit in some.
00:05:46
Yes. Hot water. Magnesium water. Yes. Man, I'm a believer. You look glowy. Oh, thank you.
00:05:52
Well I really also I think I gone over the I went over the stress waterfall And for a while I was churning down in those the white water at the bottom of the stress waterfall I see you in a barrel just like an
00:06:05
old timey barrel. Right. I was down there, water straight down on my head for a while.
00:06:09
I popped straight back up and I landed in a hot spring out by the desert. Hell yeah. Also it was
00:06:14
103 or four. At one point we just sat by a pool like I was a person that gets tan and just like
00:06:22
laid around by the pool for like hours. So nice. It was great. I like less self-help books and more like just go sit in the sun or just go bake and whatever.
00:06:32
Yeah, get some dopamine somehow. Yes, actively. Yeah, but like good for you, dopamine, not like alcohol.
00:06:38
Yes, exactly. Do something that immediately have an effect on your nervous system, which that really does.
00:06:45
I didn't realize. Yeah, I love that place. I'm a real desert lizard. Should we get into it?
00:06:51
Or do you want to hear about jump roping? Nope, let's get into it. What is jump roping?
00:06:55
I just started a new personal challenge if you want to join me. Jumping rope five minutes a day.
00:07:01
Yes. Boom. It's great. I'm going to turn it into content because nothing can happen without turning it into content.
00:07:06
Are you going to learn to double-dodge eventually? Are you going to build up to a skill?
00:07:10
I'm going to learn to jump rope first because it's harder than I remember. But do you feel like you might be able to get skip rope?
00:07:17
Yeah, that's the idea, right? Then. Then I'm a jump rope influencer. Yes. Then you can go to New York City where I watch TikToks of people jumping into those double duches that pop up in a square.
00:07:29
I could do that as a kid. You could? Yeah. I think I could do it a little bit. I think I could do it now.
00:07:34
That's how cocky I am and how much I don't know how old I am. I bet I could fucking get into a double dutch.
00:07:38
You immediately break your hip the second you do that. Oh, God. That's really good.
00:07:43
I'm totally down for that. Do we have to check in and stuff? Sure. Unless we don't do it.
00:07:48
I'll never talk about it again. I mean, that is our way. Truly. But it's fun to try things.
00:07:53
Yes. You know I have a mini trampoline that I jump on all the time. I do too. I never jump on it.
00:07:57
It's so hard. What about this? I'm going to get on my mini trampoline. You do your jump rope.
00:08:01
Yes. And we'll do parallel jumping therapies and then report back. Yes. Okay. My favorite jumping apparatus.
00:08:10
This is not an integration of any kind? Nope. Not being paid by big jump at all.
00:08:17
It's not what's happening. I am. You're not? Oh, shit. Did you get the... Damn it.
00:08:21
Did you see Katie Van Buskirk right before we started recording? No. She's our incredible integration person.
00:08:27
Ad sales. Ad sales manager. She texted us and said, I was looking through where your listeners are across the world.
00:08:34
And then she wrote, with a fucking gif, Vatican City. That's not true. It's true.
00:08:42
Inside the Vatican? Yes. We have listeners in Vatican City. Okay, then may I just for one second?
00:08:48
We are tying it all the way back to Italy. Please. Get it back up there. Get it up.
00:08:53
Okay, what? Hello, every citizen of Vatican City that's listening to us right now.
00:08:59
We're putting it over the... May we please go into your archives that you don't let the public into so we can see the dragon eggs and the ghosts that are caught in a Raggedy Ann doll.
00:09:11
We want to see it all. There has to be a listener who just does the archives. Gotta be some.
00:09:16
Just like a custodian. A custodian, a file folder, tend to her. We'll give you some merch.
00:09:22
You can have any sweatshirt you want if you tell us the secrets of the Vatican. Yeah, and let us look inside.
00:09:27
Yeah, because I have watched the secrets of the Vatican. Oh, yeah. And they don't tell you any good secrets.
00:09:34
Like, it's like Mary Magdalene is actually the one. No, nobody knows the good secrets but the people who hate them.
00:09:40
Yeah. And I bet it's if you're going to talk about fucking time travel cities and places, that's obviously.
00:09:45
That's the number one portal. Right. They do a lot of old crazy shit there. We did go on.
00:09:51
We went on a tour of the Vatican because Paige Hurwitz, our friend and EP, made us go there.
00:09:58
A person who was born and raised very Jewish. Yeah. She was like, we have to go to the Vatican.
00:10:02
And it was me, Janet and Adrian were like, we don't want to. Was it amazing? She made us go.
00:10:06
Yes, it was incredible. Wow. Except for I did get in trouble for filming inside the Sistine Chapel.
00:10:12
And I was doing it for my dad where I was like, he's going to lose his mind. And the man like put my hand down and he was like, be respectful of other people's religions.
00:10:19
And I was like, I think we're the number one of the classic Catholics in this religion.
00:10:27
My grandparents paid for this fucking thing. They gave you all kinds of money they didn't have.
00:10:32
That's right. Yeah. Well, Vatican City, here we come. What? Here's the thing. You're flipping through Netflix.
00:10:37
you're like, oh, look, there's a true crime podcast. Let me click on here and see what they're doing.
00:10:43
What the fuck are they talking about? What is this? Why is this? This is so dumb.
00:10:48
First of all, it's two women. I can't stand women. Listen to their voices. They think their opinions matter.
00:10:54
They can't even speak Italian. They need to go into the kitchen and be trad wives.
00:10:58
And really. Meanwhile. Meanwhile. We're not going to. We refuse. Meanwhile, that's not in the plans.
00:11:05
Okay, real quick. Let's do some case updates. I mean, if we are a true crime podcast, let's talk about because big things have actually been happening in the true crime space.
00:11:12
That's true. We're in. And the craziest one is that the convictions in the Murdoch murders have been overturned.
00:11:20
Alec Murdoch, convicted for the murders of his wife Maggie and his son Paul, that guilty verdict has been tossed by the South Carolina Supreme Court citing shocking jury interference by a woman named Becky Hill, a court clerk who managed jurors during his 2023 trial.
00:11:38
What did she do? They say she improperly influenced the jury, among other things, by advising them not to trust the defense's evidence.
00:11:47
Oh, you can't do that. Well, that's egregious. I mean, absolutely not. The South Carolina Supreme Court seems to agree with this saying in its recent decision Hill had quote placed her fingers on the scales of justice But we should say Becky Hill has denied influencing the jury although she did
00:12:06
What would she do? She pled guilty to misusing public funds and using her job for personal gain and specifically to promote her book about the trial.
00:12:15
Oh, shit. So it's a wash. That's no good. Yeah. Because here's the thing. I think they get her on this crime.
00:12:22
Yeah. Justifiably so. Yeah. And then it's like, and perfect because now we undo the whole sweater.
00:12:27
Right. Totally. Unbelievable. Wow. Okay, I have a quick update on my, you know, the case that is nearest to my heart, which is the yogurt shop murders.
00:12:36
Yeah. I covered in episode 70, Live at the Moon Tower. And so they have finally found the actual killer based on DNA.
00:12:45
It's clearly this person. And so the city of Austin is expected to pay $35 million in restitution to the four teenage boys who were arrested and convicted of this.
00:12:57
So Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott, Forrest Wellborn, and the family of Maurice Pierce, who died in 2010.
00:13:03
So $35 million. Yeah. It's taken a long time, but they're at least getting some justice.
00:13:10
Yeah. Yeah. Is it justice or just like at least they're getting some relief from the difficulties that being convicted for this crime has probably created in their lives?
00:13:21
And you can if you watch the documentary that was on HBO, I think they're in it and we're clearly struggling still.
00:13:26
So, yeah, that whole case. All right. God. Well, we have a podcast network. It's time to be positive.
00:13:32
OK, so this week on Ghosted, Roz is joined by the scrumptiously spooky drag sensation Pineapple Honeydew.
00:13:38
Oh, my God. Are you familiar with Pineapple's work? No, I love Pineapple. I can't wait to watch.
00:13:44
They get into Appalachian superstitions, psychic dreams, and Pineapple's own uncanny manifestations.
00:13:51
And then on I Said No Gifts, Bridger avoids a full-blown argument when writer-comedian
00:13:55
Chloe Radcliffe arrives with a gift. Then the two discuss Craigslist killers, bed bug immunity, and dating delicate men.
00:14:03
It's like a conversation just for us. Then over on this podcast, We'll Kill You, Erin and Erin dive into histoplasmosis,
00:14:10
which is among the most widespread fungal infections in North America. What is it about me and them that makes me so excited about that?
00:14:19
Because you know you're now going to listen to that episode, and now you'll be an expert on the widespread fungal infections in North America.
00:14:26
I love fungus. They also discuss bats, birds, tuberculosis, and the surprising history behind this disease's discovery.
00:14:34
Wow. So that's going to be good. Finally on Hollywoodland, Jake and Zeth tell the story of the legendary Steve McQueen.
00:14:40
From beers with Elvis to Charles Manson's hit list, this story never takes its foot off the gas.
00:14:46
That's our Disgraceland Hollywoodland vibe over there. Love it. And just for everybody to know, in the merch corner, we have looked around this terrible world of ours and decided to officially restock that this is terrible.
00:14:57
Keep going, mug. You asked for it. There it is. Blue on blue. And it's on both sides now, which I really love.
00:15:04
Yeah. I love that color combination. It's very 1981. I love it. That's a good mug.
00:15:10
It is. Also, don't forget my Ontario mug from touring in like 2018. I probably got it at a Starbucks.
00:15:17
Yeah, it's Starbucks for sure. Or it was given to us. That's right. If you gave this to us and you're seeing this right now, please write in and tell us what
00:15:24
it was like. Okay. All right. You're first. I'm first today. Great. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.
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00:17:44
Hyundai has always moved the future within reach. Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle.
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Hyundai did it by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability. And Hyundai continues doing it every day From robotics that change how people live to young athletes changing the game the future isn some far off concept It already here Next starts now Hyundai
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00:19:10
It's December 1816, so a while ago. A baby girl named Elizabeth is born in Massachusetts in a comfortable household by two parents who can afford to educate their children.
00:19:21
Her two brothers are sent to all-boy schools, while Elizabeth will eventually be trained with other young girls to someday become school teachers.
00:19:29
She is a curious, driven, and exceptionally bright young girl. These are all qualities that would be celebrated if they were displayed by her brothers.
00:19:37
But we're talking about 1816. Yeah. An intellectually gifted girl invites scrutiny and criticism and screams of kill the witch.
00:19:48
Elizabeth will learn the hardest way she can. society prefers their ladies to be nice and to be quiet. And when they're not, when they dare to use
00:19:55
their brains to question authority or their husbands, that intelligence will be used against
00:20:00
them and they will be deemed too dangerous for their own well-being. And that usually back then
00:20:06
meant being institutionalized. When Elizabeth is forcibly committed to a psychiatric institution,
00:20:12
she witnesses and experiences genuine harm, but it also radicalizes her. And she will begin to
00:20:19
keep a diary, writing down everything she sees. And when she finally gets to tell her story,
00:20:25
she will not be nice or quiet about it. She will change the world. Wow. This is the story of Elizabeth Parsons Ware Packard.
00:20:33
Elizabeth Parsons Ware Packard. Ware Packard. She has three last names, like a modern day lady.
00:20:40
Maren read the book, The Woman They Could Not Silence, by author Kate Moore, who wrote
00:20:45
the Radium Girls book. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that's the main source that was used today. Any other source is listed in our show notes, but it's mostly the work of Kate Moore.
00:20:56
So Elizabeth Parsons Ware grows up very religious. Her father Samuel Ware is a minister with Calvinist leanings.
00:21:03
So pretty bleak lens of Christianity that says all humans are inherently sinful and salvation isn't determined by you making good choices or being a good person.
00:21:15
It's just kind of randomly what God decides based on like, I like you, you'll be saved, you won't.
00:21:21
Sucks. Pretty fear inducing at all times. So you kind of can't do anything right, and you're always apologizing.
00:21:26
We've all been there. So the wares run a very God-fearing, theologically strict household, and yet they're very progressive about their daughter's educations.
00:21:37
For a girl of her era, Elizabeth's education is an unusually rigorous one, and it also probably helps that they live near Amherst College, which kind of provides this intellectual backdrop.
00:21:49
So that influences the way she sees the world, of course. By the time 1835 rolls around, 19-year-old Elizabeth is working as a teacher until her career is interrupted by what doctors will refer to, the doctors of the time will refer to as brain fever.
00:22:05
Her symptoms include headaches, chills, fever, and confusion. Today, she would likely be diagnosed with a viral or a bacterial brain infection like encephalitis or meningitis.
00:22:17
Wow. Those are fully treatable with modern medicine. But it's 1835. So doctors theorize that Elizabeth's job as a teacher has overstimulated her female brain.
00:22:29
Hysterical. She's hysterical. She's just fucking lost it, which is manifested in these physical symptoms that she has.
00:22:36
Now, cut to my sister Laura going, it does drive you insane. Like, that's all I can think about. It's like, it's true. They were right.
00:22:44
But she's wrong. So, oh, that felt great. I've never really taken that to the public stage
00:22:52
she's never going to hear it she's not a fan of the show you guys are wrong you guys have always been wrong
00:22:58
so when Elizabeth's father hears about this diagnosis he requests that his daughter be admitted to the local asylum
00:23:06
believing that the root of her illness is that she's quote used too much mental effort
00:23:12
end quote in her line of work me too too much mental effort We need the hot springs.
00:23:18
It's really hard. We should do this from a hot spring. Ooh, we absolutely should.
00:23:22
We could. There's two ducks that just hang out the whole time with you, and they're not scared of you because they're filled with lithium.
00:23:28
I want ducks to be my friends now. That's my new, like, bird obsession. It's guy-girl-duck couple.
00:23:32
And they're, like, cool with everyone? They don't care. They're just so relaxed and filled with magnesium and all the minerals you need for your nervous system to be okay.
00:23:41
You just sold this to me completely. Okay, great. We'll get you a little gift certificate.
00:23:44
So this, of course, will be entirely against her will, obviously. And according to Elizabeth, she will later write a needless and unkind decision.
00:23:54
She will spend six weeks in this asylum, subjected to all kinds of archaic treatments,
00:24:00
including at one point bloodletting. Oh. So it's not any kind of like hospital that we would know today.
00:24:07
Right. They didn't have lobotomies yet, right? I don't think so. I would love to.
00:24:13
Everything in me wants to say no, of course not, but I don't know. I want to ask if they had electric shock therapy,
00:24:18
but I don't even know if they had electricity. I don't. So I shouldn't ask that.
00:24:20
I think it was like the fresh new thing around town, electricity, but I don't know either.
00:24:26
What we know is this. She does not write about this first time she's hospitalized in any way, but it's a 19th century mental asylum.
00:24:34
Her physical symptoms do start to improve, though. So she's finally discharged because, of course, she is treated and basically her brain infection goes away.
00:24:43
But by the point that she gets out, she firmly believes that her recovery is incidental and that her treatment by these asylum doctors has actually only made her worse mentally and emotionally.
00:24:54
So a couple years pass after that. And then in 1839, when she's 22, she gets set up with a friend of her father's named, get ready for this.
00:25:05
Oh, sorry. We have a picture of Elizabeth. Here's her OG. She does not look happy.
00:25:10
That's a dour face. All she wanted to do was be mean to children and hit them with a stick while she taught them Latin.
00:25:18
She's like, someone unzip my dress. It's so tight. Please, I'm just upset about it.
00:25:21
The idea that you would get a physical infection or a virus and suddenly it's like, sorry, crazy, go to the insane asylum.
00:25:29
Your father or your husband says you're crazy. So that's all that's needed. That's it.
00:25:33
OK, so she gets set up with a friend of her father's named Theophilus Packard. Can we take a look at Theophilus?
00:25:41
Theophilus? Theophilus. Whoa. Yes. This is when he's young. No. This is after he sees the ghost.
00:25:48
he looks like planet of the apes where they like put a suit on one of the apes with those and also
00:25:55
i think it's the chin strap beard this is the final argument against the chin strap beard i
00:26:00
know guys do it because they're like there was more left yeah there used to be a lot now we're
00:26:05
down to this one and the answer is firm no please don't trying to see if you'd be hot without it but
00:26:11
i don't think so well also he's taking the chin strap beard to a totally upsetting level where
00:26:16
it's under his chin but grown out. So it looks like he's wearing a children's lion costume.
00:26:22
I think it smells like. Is that so they can eat soup better? Maybe. It's so that he can worship the Lord better because he is like her father,
00:26:32
a Calvinist minister and 14 years older than her. He's 37. He is not particularly romantic.
00:26:39
I know that's going to shock you. He's not all about that relationship. And in fact, later,
00:26:45
Elizabeth will write that during their courtship, he, quote, did not seem to love me much.
00:26:50
Yeah, sounds about right. She does go on to say that she marries him in part to make her father happy, but they're not a match.
00:26:58
So author Kate Moore writes, quote, their characters were as opposite as it was possible to get.
00:27:03
Where Elizabeth was vibrant, sociable and curious, Theophilus was gloomy and in his own words, dull.
00:27:11
You said he was dull? Yeah. Always trust the guy when they tell you what they are.
00:27:15
He's like, look, don't get fooled by my way back chin strap beard. I know I seem whimsical because of this fucking.
00:27:22
This was just an accident. Yeah. What if he couldn't grow beard hair on his chin?
00:27:27
It started back there. OK, so for years, Elizabeth endures a marriage that she will later describe as, quote, love strangling.
00:27:35
The worst. She spends that relationship constantly tempering her own thoughts and feelings to keep peace in the household.
00:27:43
She has a lot of children. and she moves at the whim of her husband's ministry career,
00:27:48
he is always the focus of everyone's life. Because how could it not be? He turns heads when he walks in the door.
00:27:56
He looks like he invented like grape juice or something. He looks like something from an old, like try my car cleaner.
00:28:02
Like a disgusting prune tonic. But he's like, it works. It makes you vitality. It'll fix your spleen.
00:28:09
He's always talking about a spleen. Like he won't shut up about a spleen. He's like, listen, I'm dull, but your spleen will be clean.
00:28:16
The spleen is the heart of every malady. Of every chin beard. In 1848, the first women's rights convention ever held in the U.S., which was the Seneca Falls Convention, takes place in New York.
00:28:28
And activists like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucretia Mott are like the central players of this event.
00:28:34
It's a watershed moment in the broader movement for women's rights in the United States.
00:28:39
Elizabeth is now in her early 30s. She doesn't get to go to this, but she hears about it and she hears the messages of women's empowerment that come out of it.
00:28:48
It resonates with her. She is a decade into this miserable, dull, loveless marriage.
00:28:54
And she begins to test the social limits of her role, not only as a mother, but as a preacher's wife.
00:29:00
So she takes on this is the ultimate like get out of jail free. She starts doing missionary work.
00:29:06
So she gets out of the household. She's like, it's for the Lord. Bye. It's what we're all supposed to be doing.
00:29:12
And she gets to be out in the real world. And once she gets out into the real world, she starts examining her own faith.
00:29:19
And this is the time where spiritualism is very, very popular in the United States, which is the belief the living can communicate with the dead.
00:29:27
And being raised in the Calvinism end of Christianity, she's drawn to theologies that are more empathetic and mystical and humanistic.
00:29:38
I could see that. She even attends a seance where she claims that she spoke with her late mother.
00:29:43
So listen to episode 363, Landed in Marshmallows, if you want to hear about Harry Houdini's fight against spiritualism.
00:29:51
That was a good one. Because he didn't like it. So for most other women at that time that kind of dalliance into spiritualism was what was happening It probably would have been fine But because Elizabeth husband is a rigid 19th century Calvinist minister
00:30:05
her spiritual journey puts a huge strain on their marriage. But she doesn't want to hide
00:30:09
her beliefs anymore. Basically, she's just trapped and she's like, whatever, I'm going to do what I
00:30:13
want. So in their ultra-religious social circle, which is probably just all the people at her
00:30:19
husband's church. They're just watching as the minister's wife dabbles in the heretical,
00:30:24
like the seance. You can't. You can't. It's not allowed. And so at home, this, I guess,
00:30:31
hobby is challenging Theophilus's values on everything from how to raise their six children
00:30:37
to major issues of the day, like slavery. Elizabeth identifies as an abolitionist,
00:30:43
Although a very flawed white 1800s one. Got it. Very self-serving. But overall, especially like trying to put it on the table with her husband, who is 10 times worse in every direction than her.
00:30:56
Yeah. He doesn't like it. She is an avid supporter of John Brown, the man who led the anti-slavery raid at Harper's Ferry in 1859 and was executed for it.
00:31:06
She's a believer in this movement. And her husband is mortified. He, of course, unsurprisingly, finds his wife's politics increasingly embarrassing.
00:31:16
She becomes so disillusioned that she actually leaves her husband's church because she's like, how could you say you're of God and be doing this to people?
00:31:25
I mean, that's such a fuck you. Yeah. Oh, my God. The wife leaving? The preacher's wife.
00:31:29
Oh, yeah. You saw the Whitney Houston movie? You know what it's like. So leaving the church, she is just piling up the humiliations for him.
00:31:38
their marriage is in shambles but of course divorce is off the table he would never do it
00:31:43
morally and she is deathly afraid that she'll lose custody of her children then her husband
00:31:49
of 21 years does the unthinkable dies no no uh it's close though but not bad for him it's 1860
00:32:00
they're living in jacksonville illinois and one night in the middle of the night elizabeth is
00:32:06
taken from her home by two strange men and brought to the Illinois State Asylum and Hospital.
00:32:11
Wow. He's just like, here's the problem. Let me get rid of it. Yeah. You're so embarrassing by contradicting me that you must be insane. And so you have to be
00:32:20
committed. And it's right there in Jacksonville. Elizabeth has no idea what's going on. She
00:32:25
remembers being in the reception room hours later, begging to be released. And then she sees her
00:32:31
husband through a window and realizes like he's there to confirm this is happening and make sure
00:32:36
it happens. Chilling. She will later write in her journal that he looked at her with, quote,
00:32:41
one last look of satisfied delight. Never had I seen his face more radiant with joy. Damn.
00:32:48
He's like, she's gone. Can you imagine that face? Can we see the face again? Never had I seen the
00:32:54
face so radiant with joy. That's what it looks like. He doesn't look like a joyful person. He's not.
00:32:59
He looks a little stunned. It would actually probably be very upsetting to see him radiant with joy.
00:33:05
First of all, just seeing that face through a window, and I'd think that's a ghost or whatever.
00:33:09
But to see him happy? He's like, hooray, she's finally gone. I can get back to my books and ledgers.
00:33:18
And God. And, of course, God. So Theophilus commits his 44-year-old wife to an asylum, telling the doctors there that she is, quote, slightly insane.
00:33:27
His proof is— Hurt we all. I mean, we'd all be in there. We would all be in there.
00:33:32
This whole building of people would be in there. Thank God. Together. His proof is her leaving his Calvinist church and disavowing his worldview.
00:33:40
And Illinois state law at the time says, no problem, pastor. All husbands have the right to institutionalize their wives without any medical proof that they are mentally ill in any way.
00:33:50
Y'all. And it was just so recently. I know. So, as we know, Elizabeth has been through this before.
00:33:58
It's what her father did to her when she was a teenager. And, of course, that works against her and reaffirms her diagnosis.
00:34:05
The well-respected 43-year-old superintendent of this hospital is a man named Dr. Andrew McFarlane.
00:34:10
And he does seem to agree with Theophilus' assessment that Elizabeth's actions over the last few years suggest that she is, quote, slightly insane.
00:34:19
Slightly insane is so cute. Like, can you—that would be great. I mean, she's not raving in the streets.
00:34:26
We understand. But she certainly isn't down at church, nodding along with her husband's beard.
00:34:31
Elizabeth will write that she's been, quote, placed there by her husband for thinking.
00:34:39
End quote. But her insistence that she's sane, of course, only seems to affirm to Dr. McFarland that she's not.
00:34:47
The old trick. I'm just screaming I'm insane. Yeah. Never works. Yeah. I'm sane.
00:34:51
I'm sane. And then you say it 500 more times. So she's committed with no clear discharge date.
00:34:57
And so she begins to write. And from her very thorough diaries, she describes her time in there yearning not only for her freedom, but for her children.
00:35:07
She is in agony. Her friends on the outside are advocating for her release. But they are powerless, of course, because of the laws of the time.
00:35:15
So they can argue all they want. Elizabeth is certainly not alone in her experience, though.
00:35:20
She documents the leagues of other women that she meets in the asylum and who have also been unfairly institutionalized by the men in their lives.
00:35:29
She also records details on patients who are genuinely unwell and how the staff are clearly unequipped to treat them and are often abusive.
00:35:39
It is a miserable place. It's overcrowded. Resources are stretched thin. There's high staff turnover.
00:35:44
Some wards are filthy There are puddles of human waste left on the unclean floor Every room seems to have been stripped of the smallest possible comfort Patients only get to sit on hardwood benches and the bedding is as scratchy and itchy and terrible as it could possibly be And so Elizabeth writes all this down She takes it all down and she writes about all of it in detail
00:36:07
But the darkest testimony involves the extreme abuse that she experiences and that she witnesses other patients being subjected to at the hands of asylum employees.
00:36:18
So you've got to figure probably a lot of these employees were totally unqualified, untrained.
00:36:24
Right. They're just thrown in there like, make sure they're quiet or make sure they eat or go to bed.
00:36:28
From there, the exploitation of that power. Women are injured as they're violently stuffed into straitjackets.
00:36:35
They're beaten for being unruly. They're choked. Sometimes Elizabeth tries to intervene.
00:36:40
But she writes that once while trying to help a patient that's being manhandled by a much larger attendant,
00:36:46
he turns and grabs Elizabeth and drags her through the hallways back to her room by her arm and locks her in.
00:36:52
so she can't interfere anymore. She writes about a patient being starved as punishment,
00:36:58
and when she sneaks that woman some food, an aide finds out and pulls a knife on her
00:37:02
and holds it over her head. Holy shit. So it's just, it's mayhem in there. She also writes about an assistant choking a young patient,
00:37:12
and one of his fingernails is so sharp, it slashes the young patient's throat. When the attendant backs off,
00:37:18
Elizabeth dresses the patient's wound with a piece of her own clothing, and she keeps that bandage.
00:37:24
And she writes that the scrap is, quote, read with the blood of this innocent girl
00:37:29
as proof of this kind of abuse in the Jacksonville insane asylum. Oh, my God. That's terrifying.
00:37:35
Yeah. And she's just kind of like, I'm just going to put it down. Yeah. She writes extensively about the arrival of bathtubs, too.
00:37:44
Oh, no. And we talked about this a little bit with Nellie Bly. So at first, they're introduced as a more hygienic and dignifying alternative to the sponge baths that were usually given to patients.
00:37:55
But Elizabeth describes them as quickly becoming instruments of torture used to punish girls and women for things as small as, quote, silly behavior and laughing.
00:38:05
From her bed, Elizabeth writes that she can hear the patients begging for mercy as attendants throw them into the tubs, sometimes with, quote, their hands and feet tied.
00:38:15
And if they resisted, a straitjacket was placed upon them, end quote. Like just sadistic people.
00:38:21
This is not therapy in any way. No. This is sadism. It's sadism because they're held underwater repeatedly for long stretches of time.
00:38:30
And sometimes the water's freezing or it's scalding hot. And the only way that Elizabeth knows that the patient survives this basically torture slash treatment is when they come back up out of the water screaming.
00:38:45
Fuck. So she is in this situation and in this hospital for months. And of course, it's deteriorating both her mental and her physical health because it's a living hell.
00:38:56
Yeah. As an act of resistance, she does her best to keep her mind sharp. So she commits to a routine of regular exercise and prayer.
00:39:04
This is you and me and jumping rope. This is how we're going to do it. Keeping sane in this fucked up world.
00:39:11
As we jump rope or on a mini trampoline, we're going to be like, Lord, Lord, Lord.
00:39:15
Sharpen our brains. Let's sharpen this shit up and get it together. She writes in her journal, quote,
00:39:20
I am becoming so extremely sensitive to wrong and abuse that I cannot or shall not witness it without interference,
00:39:27
even if you put me into fetters for it. End quote. She is trapped in this asylum for three years total.
00:39:34
Oh, my God. Until she's finally released in 1863 due to sustaining pressure from her older children who are now are either in their late teens or early 20s.
00:39:44
Okay. So they just basically have been calling and pressuring Dr. McFarlane and the other asylum officials.
00:39:51
Did they have phones? No, sorry. They've been calling. They have been putting pressure.
00:40:00
Sorry. No, no, no. That's a good catch. They have been putting pressure on Dr. McFarlane and on the other asylum officials, basically saying our mother is not crazy and you know it and get her out of there.
00:40:11
But also the asylum officials and the workers are getting sick of dealing with Elizabeth and her interference because she really is fighting back.
00:40:19
Right. Essentially, they officially declare her incurably insane, but then release her.
00:40:25
So it's not a celebration because she is still married to Theophilus. And so when she gets home, according to her journals, he locks her in the nursery of their home.
00:40:36
Theophilus, Theophilus. The whole time? Were you thinking of it the whole time? No, like literally just now. Just now.
00:40:44
Full credit then. Thank you. Full credit. And apparently nurseries were way smaller in houses back then.
00:40:50
They were like in the fucking attic, like the attic room with the. It's Harry Potter shit.
00:40:55
He's locking her in the smallest place he possibly can. She manages to sneak a letter out of the nursery window to a friend outlining exactly how she's been confined against her will.
00:41:05
So she's just locked in there. Yeah. And she had. OK. Wow. Just like whatever. I mean, imagine it's just like you want to give me some soup.
00:41:14
Yeah. Sounds good. could we please do that? Like whatever. This guy. Fucking beardo. Don't. I don't want to see him.
00:41:20
Don't bring it back. Outlining exactly how she's been confined against her will under the false
00:41:25
pretense that she's insane. That friend delivers the letter to a local judge. And finally, for some
00:41:31
reason and somehow it works. For the first time, Theophilus's behavior is seen as legally problematic.
00:41:39
While a husband can easily have his wife committed to an asylum, it's not as defensible
00:41:44
to lock that same wife up in a little room in your house. There are boundaries, people.
00:41:49
People. We're here. You can't just run around. There a rocking chair on the front porch It so nice here Willy nilly You keep all that abuse to the asylum Okay So in January of 1864 Elizabeth goes to trial to establish her mental state once and for all
00:42:07
She is now 48 years old. She's like, can I go to sleep? She is like, but probably in the perfect like menopausal state to be like, let's do this thing.
00:42:15
She's also like an old lady. I mean. No, no, say it. I mean, because 48 in today's money, she's 117.
00:42:23
Yeah. So various physicians and family members, friends and acquaintances go on record in the courtroom to state that she is a sane human being.
00:42:32
And after five days of testimony, but only seven minutes of deliberating, the jury deems Elizabeth Packard to be sane.
00:42:39
And you know it was an all-male jury. I mean, it would have to be, I believe. Just neckbeards abound.
00:42:44
Neckbeards being like, I don't want to give this woman her freedom, but I must. With that, Theophilus immediately skips town and takes their three youngest children with him.
00:42:55
Elizabeth is left with nothing but the clothes on her back. Luckily, she does have her older children and her friends to lean on.
00:43:03
But of course, she is forever changed by the years of mistreatment. So she channels her anger into advocacy work, and she starts by advocating for herself.
00:43:13
She takes her husband to court in both Illinois and Massachusetts, where he's currently living.
00:43:18
and she sues him for damages. Damn. I mean, in the mid-1800s. In the, is electricity real yet?
00:43:27
We don't, nobody knows. It's that long ago. A few years after that, in her early 50s,
00:43:32
she finally wins custody of her youngest children and then she sets out on a campaign
00:43:37
for the rights of both married women and patients in psychiatric institutions. Wow.
00:43:42
Her most powerful tool is her writing. Her diaries capture the horrors of the asylum so vividly
00:43:47
that when she publishes several books based on them, the public laps it up. She becomes increasingly famous.
00:43:55
She travels all through the United States sharing her story, and she eventually secures real changes in the law.
00:44:02
She's said to have inspired the passage of over 30 different laws in various states,
00:44:07
ones that better protect women's personal assets when they get married, and an Illinois law that guarantees a trial for anyone unwillingly being committed,
00:44:16
which could have prevented Elizabeth's own institutionalization if it had existed years earlier.
00:44:22
So now it's 1867, and Elizabeth's efforts also result in the state investigation of Dr. Andrew McFarland
00:44:30
and the Illinois State Asylum and Hospital, which stretches on for seven months.
00:44:36
In the end, investigators recommend he be removed from his post, but for unknown reasons, this doesn't happen.
00:44:43
And he holds the job for three more years, at which point he willingly leaves to open his own private asylum.
00:44:51
In 1897, when she is 80 years old, Elizabeth Parsons Ware Packard dies suddenly of a strangulated hernia.
00:44:58
She is buried in Chicago. After decades spent writing books and giving impassioned lectures on the horrors of the asylum and the women who were sent there and who suffered there, her legacy as a courageous woman who stood up and spoke out has endured.
00:45:11
As for Dr. McFarland, despite the reputational damage caused by Elizabeth's advocacy work, not to mention the investigation into the asylum under his leadership, when a new state-run psychiatric center opens in Springfield, Illinois in 1968, it's named in his honor.
00:45:27
Cool. The McFarland Mental Health Center. But when author Kate Moore's book, The Woman They Could Not Silence, is published in 2021, it brings renewed attention to Elizabeth Parson Ware's story.
00:45:39
And in 2023, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker announces that center will be renamed the Elizabeth Parsons Ware Packard Mental Health Center.
00:45:49
That is amazing. Yeah. And it just happened. And it's because of author Kate Moore and her work. And of course, Elizabeth Parsons, Ware Packard's work where she was just blindly in the dark going, this is wrong. I need to change this. Somebody do something.
00:46:05
That's such a strong, like they could have named it something generic too, just taken his name off of it. But instead of naming it after this evil doctor, they named it after a woman who fought him, fought his evil. That's amazing.
00:46:18
And also it's like, was he evil? I feel like the naming thing is like their way of saying, but he did such great work, which always happens. But he didn't according to the people he was doing the work on. And that's the key. Is that anybody can claim that or their constituents can claim it or their boys down at the Elks Lodge.
00:46:40
But how about the people that were there and sitting in their own fucking piles of feces being tortured?
00:46:50
Okay. So of this decision, author Kate Moore has said, quote, I think she would be personally grateful that she and her work have been recognized when for so much of her life she was denigrated and dumbed down.
00:47:02
But I also think she would say the work is not done, end quote. and that's the story of mental health advocate Elizabeth Parsons Ware Packard.
00:47:11
Wow, I didn't. As slightly, what is it, slightly insane? Slightly insane. I didn't know that about her at all.
00:47:19
Yeah. That's amazing. And also it's Mental Health Awareness Month. That's right.
00:47:23
So that's what the whole vibe is about. Yes, good job. Thank you. And here's Kate Moore's book.
00:47:27
She's an amazing author. Oh, yeah. The one they could not silence. Very cool. So cool.
00:47:33
Good job. That was great. Thank you. That was harrowing. The idea that there are this many women who had to go either undercover or just were committed to insane asylums and then had to do the work on the other end once they were released.
00:47:47
Totally. And I mean, you can't just send me here because you don't like that I'm talking.
00:47:51
I mean, it says something about like, you know, because she knew how to write all the women who were not given an education who couldn't write about their experiences.
00:48:00
or send a note through a window to their friend to tell them what was going on with them.
00:48:04
That's right. They could only raise their voices, which then immediately qualified them as being slightly insane.
00:48:10
Which is why they didn't want to educate women, because then we would fucking talk back.
00:48:16
That's why our school systems are in the state that they are, because if nobody knows anything, then we're going to be good with it.
00:48:23
While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
00:48:29
The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14. Making plays that end up on everyone's feed, scoring from angles that don't make sense, rewriting record books that barely had time to gather dust.
00:48:40
Because Next doesn't wait for an invitation, and Hyundai doesn't either. Hyundai has always moved the future within reach.
00:48:46
Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle. Hyundai did it by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability.
00:48:53
And Hyundai continues doing it every day. From robotics that change how people live to young athletes changing the game, the future isn't some far-off concept.
00:49:02
It's already here. Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye.
00:49:07
Peace of mind can be hard to come by. Especially at 2 a.m. when your house suddenly makes a weird noise.
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00:49:38
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00:49:46
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00:50:08
If you're always on the lookout for a great audiobook or just want help figuring out what to listen to next, there's a podcast you should know about.
00:50:15
It's called Ear Say, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club hosted by Cal Penn. Each episode takes a closer look at some of the most talked about new audiobooks on Audible, spanning a wide range of genres from sci-fi and literary fiction to rom-coms, thrillers, and comedy.
00:50:29
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If you're looking for your next listen, this is a great place to start. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:50:46
Goodbye. If there's one thing to know about traveling with dogs, it's that they can't eat like you do on vacation.
00:50:52
So if you're taking the whole family on vacation this summer, your dog still needs a real dinner.
00:50:57
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00:51:19
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00:51:24
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00:51:42
Go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50% off your first order. Goodbye. Okay, great job.
00:51:50
Thank you. My turn. I mean, if you insist, I guess. I mean, I don't have to. I mean, I could walk out right now.
00:51:58
How do they get so disgusting? And how do you keep them clean? You never can. You're always wiping your glasses on your shirt.
00:52:06
The thing they tell you not to do. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Oops. Unless you're the kind of person that can keep a little silky thing.
00:52:13
No. I can't do it. Nobody can do that. That's a lie. It is a dirty lie. Okay. Conspiracy.
00:52:23
I couldn't think of the word conspiracy. Oh, my God. My brain. The brains are going to cross the board, myself, the people I'm observing.
00:52:31
This is what's happening to all of us. Okay. But let's go back to February of 2020.
00:52:39
Remember that? The world is starting to look with increasing concern at coronavirus outbreaks in China and Italy.
00:52:46
But today we are in Argentina. Specifically, we are in the Andes Mountains on South America's highest peak, the Aconcagua.
00:52:56
Okay. Have you heard of it? No. Is it by Machu Picchu? No. Okay. The fact that this is, I don't know.
00:53:04
I don't know. Why am I saying yes? I am. Right? The fact that this is the highest mountain in South America makes it one of the seven summits, which are the highest peaks on each continent.
00:53:17
So this makes it part of a popular climbing challenge for mountaineers who want to conquer all of them.
00:53:23
Could you imagine being like that? Do they not know about TV? Or naps? It's, I mean, I get it.
00:53:31
It's nice to be outside and stuff. I don't know. Just have that drive would be cool for something, besides podcasting.
00:53:36
I feel like those are people who have learned something in this world about not the immediate
00:53:45
gratification of like stuff like this. I just never learned that. Yeah, same. It's just we need
00:53:51
I can hike all the time if no one giving me attention Right Or alcohol Okay So Everest is the highest of these seven summits It also the most expensive and logistically worrisome which is because of its popularity altitude and weather concerns
00:54:08
But it's debatable as to whether it's the hardest to actually climb. And so also I did the deaths
00:54:14
on Everest in episode 174 and you covered Junko Tabai in episode 526. Should anyone want to feel
00:54:23
cold more. Learn about a legendary lady mountaineer. Right. Or your thing. Or just a bunch of terrible
00:54:30
deaths. Skeletons. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's the middle of summer in the southern part of the
00:54:36
hemisphere, 2020. So February. It's the peak of the Andes climbing season and two porters are on
00:54:41
the mountain not too far from the summit on its hardest climbing route. It's called the Polish
00:54:46
glacier, laying down ropes for a climbing expedition. And Aconcagua has multiple routes
00:54:52
to the summit. Some don't require much technical equipment or skill at all. You can just kind of
00:54:57
have a nice walk up to them. But you do have to be in really good shape to get to the top,
00:55:03
which is 22,000 feet, because the risk of getting severe altitude sickness is very high. And so some
00:55:09
climbers use oxygen, some are purists and don't. But this route that we're taking, the Polish
00:55:14
Glacier route is where the porters are, you know, getting everything ready for the mountaineers.
00:55:19
And this part is extremely difficult. It requires significant mountaineering experience.
00:55:24
And it's named the Polish Glacier because the first group to open up the route in the 1930s had
00:55:29
been from Poland. It's not that interesting. It used to be that groups of mountaineers set up
00:55:34
their own camps, lay their own lines, but now there's a whole industry around mountaineering
00:55:38
and these porters are doing just that. Can you imagine that's your job though? To be pretty rad.
00:55:43
Like some people are planning like this is my lifetime trip to climb this mountain.
00:55:47
And other people are like, ugh, gotta go to work and climb this mountain again. They do it constantly.
00:55:52
These idiots just keep coming. I know. Okay. Another thing that's changed is that the Polish glacier is receding because of the global climate change.
00:56:01
Fake. I'm just kidding. What's the word? Conspiracy? Conspiracy. No, it's not. This means that every so often, and I remember seeing this in my news feed, the glacier spits out an item that had once been encased on ice.
00:56:16
My favorite. On this particular day, the porters stumble upon a Nicomat camera. Oh.
00:56:23
It's an old school camera and it's got an old school label maker name on it. So a name and address with an old school label maker.
00:56:31
Wow. Right? Yes. The name says Janet Johnson and there's her address as well. the porters can see that 24 photos have been taken with this old camera.
00:56:40
They shrug it off. They take it down to the mountain to their campsite when they're done for the day.
00:56:45
And they show it to a guide named Ulysses Corvalon. And when Ulysses sees the name Janet Johnson, he goes white.
00:56:53
And he tells the porters that Janet Johnson, along with another climber named John Cooper,
00:56:58
died on the mountain almost 50 years earlier under very mysterious circumstances.
00:57:03
And her camera had just been uncovered. The ice receding is unveiling evidence. That's right.
00:57:10
This is the story of the Aconcagua Mountain Mystery. The main source for this is a 2023 New York Times article.
00:57:18
It's very... Good. Robust. Long. Yeah. Boring. No, it's not boring. Wordy. It's good.
00:57:26
It's called Ghosts on the Glacier by John Branch with videos by Emily Rhine. It's a really great read.
00:57:31
And then I also went to a website by this writer slash mountaineer named Mark Horrell, H-O-R-R-E-L-L.
00:57:39
Oh, I know Mark. He's one of the greats. The rest of the sources can be found in our show notes.
00:57:45
Great. So it's 1972 and a 52-year-old Portland-based lawyer named Carmine Defoe.
00:57:50
Yeah. That's a good name. Hold on. Starts putting together a group that will tackle Aconcagua together.
00:57:59
and they want to do the Polish glacier route, the hardest one. If they succeed, they will be the fifth ever group to do so.
00:58:06
Hey. Hey. Let's climb. Carmi is a member of a climbing club. Carmi? Is that his nickname?
00:58:13
Carmi. Yeah. Did I say Carmine? Yeah. Well, I meant Carmi. It's probably Carmine.
00:58:18
That's. It could be. It's such a cutie nickname for like, come on to fail. It's Carmi.
00:58:25
So he's been a member of a climbing club. that's a thing called Mazumas. It's been around since the 1890s.
00:58:32
It's still around today, so don't talk shit. You can join it. Most of the climbers he recruits
00:58:37
are also members of Mazumas. The group includes a psychiatrist named Jim Petrosky,
00:58:43
a doctor named Bill Eubank, a dairy farmer named Arnold McMillan. Wow. Just like people who were into climbing mountains.
00:58:49
It's like, it takes all kinds. A showgirl named Maureen. No. A police officer named Bill Zeller
00:58:57
and the youngest, a 25-year-old Brigham Young University student named John Shelton,
00:59:02
who was hot and he also spoke the best Spanish in his group because of his mission trip.
00:59:07
The hot was me. What's it called? Editorializing. Thank you. You're welcome. And NASA engineer named John Cooper, who had worked on several recent Apollo missions.
00:59:18
I mean, every type of person. That's right. Except for women. Well, we're going to get to her.
00:59:24
Okay. Carmi hires a local guide named Miguel Alfonso. And then, close to when the group is going to leave, he announces one new member of the party.
00:59:33
A school librarian with a Ph.D. in education from Denver named Janet Johnson. Okay.
00:59:39
Right. While most people in the group are in the same general orbit, although none of them have ever climbed together, Janet has never met anyone else in the group.
00:59:47
But Carmi's Denver friends say she's a highly experienced climber, so she can come along.
00:59:53
Let her in. Yeah. A lady climber What she doing on this I not going to wait around all day What she doing on the mountaintop Stop it This is serious No it not
01:00:05
Okay. Because the climbing party includes a NASA engineer and a woman. And a woman, for God's sake.
01:00:10
There's considerable public interest in the expedition. And it attracts some media attention.
01:00:15
Because, like, it's kind of a new, exciting thing, this mountain climbing. Yeah.
01:00:20
Women in the 60s. You know, Everest. The whole, like, climbing thing. The trend, it's really becoming a trend.
01:00:26
And everyone loves NASA people and women. Of course, they love women. They love women.
01:00:31
They get a lot of media attention, especially directed at John, NASA John and Janet.
01:00:36
So John, NASA John, I'm going to call him that, is 35 at the time of the expedition.
01:00:41
He had grown up in Kansas and had always loved the outdoors. After graduating from Oklahoma University, he becomes a pilot for the Coast Guard.
01:00:49
He's an avid climber. He's just like all the things that you want if you want an outdoorsy type.
01:00:54
Yeah. You know, like when you are swiping whichever way and you're like, do I want to hike on my first date or no?
01:00:59
He's the hike on the first date guy. He's the hike five miles on our first date.
01:01:03
That's right. He summited Kilimanjaro, Mount Kenya and Popokatepeitol. Yes, where my vacation home is.
01:01:10
That's right. And they all have elevations between 17,000 and 19,000 feet. And at NASA, John had worked on the Apollo 11 mission to the moon and every mission since up until the last one, which was Apollo 17.
01:01:22
That's right. You knew that. shortly before his expedition to Aconcagua. While at NASA, he had met a secretary named Sandy Myers,
01:01:29
and they had gotten married in 1968, and they had a son named Randy in 1969. And we're back.
01:01:36
Let's show a photo of NASA John Cooper. See you play. Okay. Yeah, rugged. Absolutely.
01:01:43
Right? Absolutely. You would love to have a beer with that guy. Totally. Fun times.
01:01:47
Although all of John's backstory becomes known to public around the time of the climb,
01:01:51
Most of what people know about Janet at the time is that she's a lady. Yes. Which is unusual for a climber at this time.
01:02:00
Janet's 36 at the time of the expedition and had been born in Minneapolis and adopted by Victor and Mae Johnson.
01:02:07
The Johnsons are very religious and very strict. And Janet is an obedient daughter.
01:02:12
She's a voracious reader, extremely studious, loves to learn. When she's 10, she says to her parents she wants a sister.
01:02:19
And so they adopt a five-year-old named Judy. Aww. I know. Judy says her sister, quote, liked to study.
01:02:27
That was her favorite thing to do. Straight A's. She would settle for nothing less.
01:02:31
Same. When Janet goes away to college, this sucks. When Janet goes away to college, and this is so little sister.
01:02:37
Oh, no. Judy finds a box of love notes between her sister and another woman. This Janet and love notes between Janet and another woman.
01:02:47
Judy found those in her room. Oh, okay. When she went away to college. It's unclear exactly how Janet's parents find out, although little sister.
01:02:54
It's clear, yeah. Yeah. I mean, allegedly. Allegedly. But you said that, but you go, this sucks.
01:03:00
And then you're like, she found a thing where I'm like, wait. Why does that suck?
01:03:03
Oh, yeah. Sorry. What's happening? That doesn't suck. Judy fucking became a rat.
01:03:09
Yes. You know. Got it. I'm sure she regretted it the rest of her life. They find out about it.
01:03:13
Her parents are really strict religious parents, and they send Janet to a hospital to cure her.
01:03:17
Yeah. Oh, that's her scream today. This, of course, does not work. And Janet moves to Denver as soon as she can to put distance between herself and her parents.
01:03:26
That's the story my mom used to tell as being a nurse in a psychiatric hospital in like the, you know, the late 60s, 70s, where people are just taking their, the kids that smoke pot, the kids that rebelled, the kids that were different in some way.
01:03:38
And just like, well, you have to go to a psych ward. To the scariest place on earth.
01:03:42
Yeah. So it's in Denver. she becomes her own woman and she gets her master's and then a PhD in education and starts
01:03:48
working as a school librarian. And then really just it's just the thing to do between climbing
01:03:53
mountains whenever she can. She's just obsessed with it. She's among the first 20 women to climb
01:03:58
all of Colorado's 14ers, they're called, the summits that are higher than 14,000 feet,
01:04:04
as well as notable mountains all around the world. Wow. Yeah. In addition to local interest in John
01:04:10
and Janet, the group also attracts attention because of their plan to climb the notoriously
01:04:14
difficult Polish glacier. Again, they would be the fifth team to do it if they accomplished it.
01:04:20
Spoiler, they don't. A journalist from the local paper in Mendoza, Argentina, named Rafael Moran,
01:04:26
goes to interview the climbing team when they arrive in Argentina. So he goes to the hotel,
01:04:31
he's like, wants to get just, you know, a little plucked peace on everyone. But right away,
01:04:35
he gets some bad vibes when he interviews everyone together. He feels that the group is not cohesive.
01:04:41
They don't seem to know each other well enough for what they're about to embark on because you
01:04:45
have to trust each other, especially if you're roped together and believe that the other person
01:04:49
knows what they're doing and has your best interest and helps out. They also don't seem
01:04:52
to quite understand just how difficult the Polish glacier route is. They're kind of being jovial
01:04:58
about it. He tells the photographer to make sure he gets single shots of everyone in the party
01:05:03
because he's convinced they won't all make it back down the mountain and he'll want a photo for the newspaper when that happens.
01:05:10
Whoa. Yeah. Oh, let's see a photo of Janet. So that's Janet. Got it. There's no sunscreen back then, but sunscreen didn't exist.
01:05:16
No sunscreen. Everyone's wearing the same flannel. That's right. No sunscreen, but skin cancer still exists.
01:05:22
Those cool sunglasses for sure, though. Oh, yeah, for sure. Wow. Yeah, she's got it all going.
01:05:28
The group stays together at a hotel in Mendoza, Argentina, before setting off. John Cooper, the NASA engineer, keeps a diary and from it, it seems like he and the other men in the group don't quite understand like what category to put Janet in.
01:05:42
She just is kind of an enigma to them. He says she doesn't seem feminine at all.
01:05:46
He writes, quote, Janet sure is weird. She went swimming in her bra, blouse and panties today and the pool was full of people, end quote.
01:05:54
So it just like women climbing mountains Also she just jumped into the pool because she didn have a suit She didn give a fuck Like she was definitely like a I don give a fuck lady
01:06:05
Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to live life how I want to live life. And so these guys had kind of never been around anybody like that before.
01:06:11
So the team sets out for base camp, a 25 mile, extremely rigorous hike on its own.
01:06:17
Like you get to the first place and you're like, we have to go more. Who's making the food?
01:06:22
Right. So base camp is at 13,500 feet, which is around 1,000 feet less than any of the highest peaks in the Rocky Mountains.
01:06:32
Altitude sickness begins to be a factor at around 8,000 feet, and they're at 13,500.
01:06:37
And by the time they reach the base camp, Eubanks, the group's doctor, is already not feeling well and has to stay there.
01:06:45
So I looked up what altitude sickness feels like because I don't fucking know. And I'll tell you, and you'll understand this as well as I do.
01:06:51
Altitude sickness generally feels like a severe hangover. Oof. Those fucking hangovers where you're lying there just wishing for unconsciousness.
01:07:02
Yeah, you can get out of your own body just for two hours. Sweaty and suppressed and nauseous.
01:07:09
It's bad. It's so bad. It's characterized by a throbbing headache, nausea, dizziness, fatigue, and shortness of breath.
01:07:16
So it sucks you're not hiking anymore when you get it. At base camp, the group connects with a local 25-year-old climber named Roberto Bustos, whom they have hired to look after their base camp setup.
01:07:27
So I think he might be the cook? Or they just are eating like dry, weird buttery.
01:07:33
Yeah, what is it? Handfuls of walnuts? It would drive me insane. Yeah. Roberto also specifically remembers that the vibe seemed off to him as well.
01:07:41
They didn't seem like a team, but rather a group of individuals. He says, quote,
01:07:44
there was no group attitude. I was thinking, oh, I am on my own. Everyone has to take care of
01:07:50
himself. In my opinion, they weren't ready for such a strange and big mountain as Aconcagua.
01:07:55
Yeah, that's a terrible way to start. Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of people underestimate this mountain. The people who are from there
01:08:02
know that. Do you think the infighting would be worse if it's strangers who aren't gelling or if
01:08:08
it's people who know each other really well? Because that also has a thing of like, you
01:08:12
You could start as a great group, but something happens and then. Yeah, either way.
01:08:16
Then it's more personal. Totally. But you think that you make sure you like each other, though, if you're going to do it.
01:08:22
You're right. Trust is the piece. Two people might not like each other when everyone else.
01:08:25
Yeah. Who knows? Email us. Are you a mountaineer? Let us know. What's it called?
01:08:30
Altitude sickness is like. What's the ultimate thread on the trail? Let us know what it's like to be a mountaineer.
01:08:35
Do you hate everyone? Okay. The whole time you're thinking of string cheese, right?
01:08:40
Because that's all I can think of. Oh, string cheese. Or like you have to like line your pockets with gummy bears or something.
01:08:45
Those little crackers that are sandwiched with peanut butter. They're so fucking good.
01:08:49
Think of pulling that out of your sock so no one else can see. These days, it's expensive to be a mountaineer.
01:08:55
And that's partly because nowadays porters set up camps. They lay lines so that groups can mostly travel directly from base camp to base camp up the mountain.
01:09:03
But in the 70s, that wasn't really how it went. This group would be doing all of that work themselves.
01:09:08
So the route up the mountain will include three separate camps. So they have to climb up to camp one, haul all the gear up there and set up camp, then go back to base camp, then go back to camp one with the rest of the gear, camp there, and then do the same thing two more times for base camp two and three.
01:09:23
So bring everything up. Stay. Bring everything up. So it's an exercise in frustration.
01:09:30
Yeah. While you're mountaineering. Yeah. Yeah. Saw that tree already. You're like your attitude just gets worse and worse.
01:09:36
Right. The conditions are varying with the potential for storms to blow in, and the climb includes long periods of navigating through spiky ice formations called penitentes.
01:09:47
Right? Penitentes. Penitentes. Have you ever heard of them? Yeah. They're literally penitents.
01:09:53
Penitentes. Because they look like people praying in church. Yeah. They're basically stalagmites.
01:09:58
They're stalagmites coming up from the ground. Exactly. There are these huge spikes of ice, huge fields of them just coming up from the ground like upside down giant icicles.
01:10:08
Same. I'm going to show you a photo. Oh, great. Because I didn't understand those.
01:10:12
Oh. So you have to navigate around those. It's just a pain in the ass, essentially.
01:10:16
You can't just, like, worry about putting one foot in front of the other. No. It looks like an old movie, like a dune or, you know, labyrinth kind of thing.
01:10:25
Or a Dr. No situation. Exactly. So there's a bunch of those as well. Those are a big pain in the ass.
01:10:31
are hard to climb around. It's grueling and already feels like people are starting to grumble about each other.
01:10:36
NASA John writes in his diary that he does not think Janet is contributing enough.
01:10:40
He writes, quote, she's a real loner and appears to be for only one thing, to get herself to
01:10:45
the summit at the expense of everyone or on everyone's back, meaning they're carrying
01:10:51
more than she is or something and she's not really helping out. That's the first thing I thought of that she would be accused of because as a woman, she
01:10:59
can't maybe technically carry as much or if there is that kind of bitterness where they're like,
01:11:05
we didn't want her here anyway. Totally. That is what you would say. Several in the group come down with acute altitude sickness right off the bat and stay at camp one or go back to base camp.
01:11:15
This includes Carmi right off the bat. The leader. The author of the whole plan.
01:11:21
He's out. The doctor, Eubanks, is out. And Shelton, the hot interpreter, out. Gone.
01:11:28
The rest of the group make it to Camp 3. They do the fucking thing at the base of the Polish glacier, about 18,000 feet up.
01:11:35
And the last camp before the stretch to the summit. So one last camp. As they get ready to start climbing, Petroski, the psychiatrist, can't get on—I just hate this word—can't get on his crampons.
01:11:49
I hate it. I can't. Every time I see—are you going to spit that out? Why did I take that sip?
01:11:56
Oh, they are. the spiky shoe attachments to get into that. That absorb your foot blood every month.
01:12:02
Just call them spiky shoes, not crampons. Can I borrow a crampon? Oh, my God. Do you have a crampon? I forgot to bring mine.
01:12:09
Oh, my God. I'm sliding into the penitence. So he's, like, having trouble putting them on, which is weird.
01:12:15
And it's clear to everyone else that it's because he's disoriented and they think that he's suffering from severe, possibly deadly altitude sickness.
01:12:22
Because at that point, your brain is, like, not working. I'm fine. Leave me alone. This is my tampon.
01:12:29
I don't want to cry. The local guide, Alfonso, takes him back down the mountain to base camp.
01:12:35
So now there are only four climbers left in the entire group. Zeller, the police officer, McMillan, the good old dairy farmer, and John, NASA John, and our Janet.
01:12:45
None of them have ever climbed a mountain this high before, and none of them knew each other before the trip.
01:12:51
Here's the other thing that I just would like to, and maybe I'm totally wrong in doing this,
01:12:55
but the idea that someone was like, she's just doing it for herself. It's like, so how many that are left are doing it for everybody else?
01:13:01
You want to hold hands at the top of the mountain? No. They're literally going to be like, me first.
01:13:05
I mean, isn't that kind of what mountaineering is about? Yeah, like you go together, but it's a one-man sport.
01:13:11
It ends up being one woman. Okay. Sure. According to the accounts of Zeller and McMillan, the psychiatrist and the police officer who are left,
01:13:21
and spoiler alert, they're the only two survivors of the group of four. the group had set out believing they would reach the summit that day but had moved very slowly
01:13:29
picking their way across the glacier with ice axe and crampons they realized they will have to camp
01:13:36
for the night and they didn't bring their tents so they have to like bevoack into the fucking ice
01:13:41
and try to like spend the night in there oh make themselves like a little igloo like a last minute
01:13:45
it sucks okay and so the next morning nasa john cooper says he's too fucking cold he's like i'm
01:13:51
out, descends. He's like, I'm going to go back to base camp. And they let him go alone, which is
01:13:55
something I guess you're not supposed to do, which is like maybe part of the thing of them not knowing
01:13:59
each other. They don't stick together. So those three climbers keep going up for the summit.
01:14:04
The last stretch is an icy snowy ridge and Zeller and McMillan say they walk ahead of Janet making
01:14:10
a path for her. Let's see that photo. Remember that one. It's just someone hiking with a rope
01:14:16
tied around them leading back to whoever's taking the picture behind them. Yep. Right.
01:14:20
They're at the top. Big old mountain. They made it to the top? No, they didn't. Okay.
01:14:25
That's technically not the top. Oh, it's on the side? That's the top. Okay. Right?
01:14:32
I don't know. What do I know? More than me. So they make her a path, and at some point, as the sun is starting to go down, they turn around and realize Janet's not behind them anymore.
01:14:44
According to their account, they find her 100 feet off the trail, lying in the snow.
01:14:49
And she says, quote, my name is Janet Johnson. Don't make me suffer. Just let me lay here and die, end quote.
01:14:56
The men say that Zeller ropes himself to Janet. And eventually both of the men try to get Janet back down the mountain.
01:15:03
And they say her hands are swollen and black. They have to anchor her from three different directions to keep her standing up.
01:15:11
They get to the snow cave where they had been in between the final ridge and Camp 3 where they had spent the night where Cooper had left to go back down the mountain.
01:15:20
Remember? And there's a flare gun there. And so they shoot it. But nothing happens.
01:15:25
At the lower altitude at this point, because it came down, they say Janet seems in better shape.
01:15:29
So they send McMillan down the mountain to help. So it's just Zeller, the police officer, and Janet at this point who is clearly not doing well.
01:15:37
Yeah. On his way down, Macmillan loses his ice axe and falls sliding a thousand feet down.
01:15:44
He has a black eye when he tells this story and says that's how he got it. Then he says he saw members of the Argentine army and dead mules and a dead soldier.
01:15:53
But it's only when he finally reaches Camp 3 that he realized he had hallucinated all of that because that's what happens when you have altitude sickness.
01:16:01
He will later learn that he really did see a body, but it wasn't a dead soldier hallucination.
01:16:06
hallucination, it was actually John Cooper's body, NASA John Cooper's 35-year-old NASA engineer.
01:16:13
So meanwhile, Janet and Zeller are following McMillan down the glacier, and they also take
01:16:18
a big fall, which doesn't result in major injuries, but their faces get cut up and their glasses get
01:16:23
broken. In the fall, Janet and Zeller become untethered from each other, because remember,
01:16:28
they had tied her up in three places to help walk. And it's only when Zeller climbs back up
01:16:33
to Janet that he sees John Cooper's body. He says, quote, I checked him and he was dead and
01:16:38
appeared to be frozen. I didn't see any cuts on his exposed skin and no tears in the clothing.
01:16:43
So I assume that he didn't die as a result of a fall, but exhaustion and hypothermia,
01:16:49
end quote. So just kind of sat down where he was at and died. Zeller says at this point that Janet
01:16:54
seems in decent shape since they've been coming down a bit, but wants to rest a bit longer. So he
01:16:59
leaves her and says he'll go back ahead of her, back down to Camp 3, which again, you're not
01:17:05
supposed to leave anyone alone, especially someone who's clearly suffering. He reaches camp and he
01:17:10
finds McMillan there and the two fall asleep and Janet never joins them. The men say in the morning
01:17:17
when they woke up, there was no sign of Janet. So they decided to go back down the mountain
01:17:21
saying that Zeller was too disoriented from altitude sickness to try again and to keep going
01:17:27
or to help get anyone down the mountain. So essentially just two people of this whole mountaineering team
01:17:32
make it close to the top and come down. And out of the four, only two come down alive.
01:17:37
The case is widely reported on, and John and Janet's families are, of course, devastated.
01:17:42
In some newspaper articles, Janet's name is misspelled as Jeanette. Janet's mother saves clippings of every single article
01:17:48
and carefully crosses out every Jeanette and replaces it with her daughter correct name I know Some articles quote Janet saying having said let me die here which they said that she said And in all of those articles
01:18:01
her mother blacks out the entire quotation. She's like, my daughter would never do that.
01:18:06
They don't believe that at all. A judge and police investigator in Mendoza opened a case
01:18:11
labeled as an investigation into possible manslaughter. But despite this, after brief
01:18:17
questioning everyone on the mountaineering team is allowed to leave the country and go home.
01:18:21
Once back in Oregon, Carmi gathers the surviving members at the party for a meeting
01:18:25
with like the club leadership and they write an official chronology of events, which is the story everyone tells their hometown newspapers and any following investigators. So
01:18:34
they put a story together in secret and everyone sticks to that narrative. Oh, so they don't, that meeting and that plan is a secret plan. They're not like,
01:18:42
let's get together and put this on the official record. No. Yeah. They're like having been interviewed back in Argentina and having very different narratives and conflicting stories. They meet up and they get their story straight. Yeah. Which is suspicious. Yes, it is.
01:18:57
So the account says that John and Janet had been desperate to reach the summit and had likely died of pulmonary edemas from lack of oxygen at altitude.
01:19:06
And because their bodies aren't able to be autopsied, they're still on the mountain.
01:19:11
That's the general consensus. That is, so that was 1972. And in the summer of 1973, John's body is found.
01:19:20
That expedition is led by Alfonso, our local guide, who was haunted by this entire ordeal.
01:19:25
at the foot of the Polish glacier, they find ripped tents and sleeping bags. And about 150 feet above on the glacier, they find John's body.
01:19:35
And there's photos of it. John is found missing a crampon and without an ice axe.
01:19:41
He's on a gentle slope and reports say his face is frozen in a look of terror. But like that to me is like everyone's is when they die.
01:19:49
Yes. It's the same thing as when it freaks people out and people think it's demonic
01:19:53
Like when people's like eyes are missing, when their bodies are discovered and it's like soft tissues is what goes first.
01:19:59
Yes. But it looks like the devil has been here. Right. So that says nothing to me.
01:20:04
But it's just it's noted. Death. It's dead bodies. Yeah. So here's the weirdest part of all to me.
01:20:10
His abdomen has a cylindrical hole, which is bloody and goes so deep it almost like hits his spine.
01:20:17
Though this isn't seen until his body thaws at a lower altitude because they bring him down.
01:20:21
A National Geographic reporter named Lauren McIntyre, who goes with this group, comes to the conclusion that, quote, there is no mystery at all.
01:20:29
He fell on his ice axe and he injured himself. But remember, his ice axe isn't with him when they find him, but he could have fallen on it, left it behind.
01:20:38
Then he says he was in so much discomfort and pain when he was nearly to base camp that he finally got off the steep part of the glacier, got down on the flat.
01:20:45
He had evidently stopped, sat down and removed his gloves and was probably trying to examine himself in his wound when he fell unconscious and froze to death.
01:20:53
So he fell on his ice pick is that consensus. He tells us to the press in a statement and it seems like a lot of people take him for his word, even though he's just a reporter and not a forensic investigator.
01:21:04
Alfonso, the guy, feels incredibly uneasy about all of this because he specifically remembers the two other climbers saying they had seen John's body in a seated position, not laying down with his head in his hands.
01:21:16
But, of course, they had been hallucinating. You have to remember the whole time that these two who survived were probably suffering from some sort of altitude sickness as well.
01:21:25
Janet's body is not found until February 1975. Ernesto Cambolero and his son, Alberto, who's 17, are with another climber named Guillermo Viero.
01:21:37
When they have to scrap their summit attempt and decide to climb down via the Polish glacier in a field of penitentes and covered by some snow.
01:21:47
So it's a field of those and it's covered by some snow. They find Janet's body. Her face is blackened from two years of exposure, but it's also severely injured.
01:21:57
with exposed bone and there is blood visible on her face and jacket. And like John, she's missing one crampon and her ice axe.
01:22:06
Her hands are bare. She's tangled up in ropes. And this is super random. A rock is found sitting on top of her body.
01:22:14
And there are no rocks around. She's in this ice field. Exactly. So she's found on a shallow slope,
01:22:22
far from anywhere she could have possibly fallen a long distance with Zeller. So that narrative that that's how he lost her and she could have died isn't true.
01:22:31
Yeah. So Alberto is a teenager and doesn't really know what to make of it all. But the other two men will say that they are sure Janet was murdered.
01:22:39
Of course, they are just as an expert as a National Geographic reporter who swears the opposite.
01:22:44
But it doesn't look like it squares up with the official narrative of the expedition.
01:22:49
It's just such a weird thing for a reporter to come out and just be like, I'm almost positive that this is what happened.
01:22:55
where it's like, sorry, aren't you a reporter? Right. Yeah, how would you know? You're not supposed to speculate.
01:23:00
Yeah. Yeah, totally. A medical student who was present for the octopies of both John and Janet
01:23:05
says that John had a skull fracture and that hole in his abdomen, which looked to him like it could have been made by an ice screw,
01:23:14
maybe or an ice pick as well. The injuries to Janet's face and damage to her boot
01:23:19
looked like she had been hit hard several times. So it looked like she had point-force trauma to her face.
01:23:25
The medical student, who is now a neurosurgeon, is also convinced that they were killed and that their deaths were not accidental.
01:23:33
He says that this was the consensus and that the medical examiner believed the same.
01:23:37
And they're all dead now. So he's kind of one of the last people who can verify that.
01:23:42
Janet is buried at the small cemetery at the base of the Aconcagua which she had told her family she wanted before the expedition if she perished on the mountain No one from her family is able to attend but someone leaves flowers with the note de tu madre or from your mother on her grave
01:24:00
That's so sad. And the only item her sister receives is Janet's ring with a brown stone from her finger.
01:24:06
And Judy still has it today. Unfortunately, any chance of further investigation.
01:24:11
So here's maybe there would have been a big investigation and the answers would have happened.
01:24:15
However, it's 1976 in Argentina and there is a coup. There's a violent military coup that overthrows a democratically elected president, Perón, and establishes a military dictatorship that brutally just consumes Argentina for years.
01:24:35
I hate to gloss over that because it's so important. Just go watch the musical Evita.
01:24:41
Right. You'll learn at least one woman's perspective. Exactly. So moving on just like that. But, you know, there's no chance of further investigation, essentially. Right. The last surviving member of the party, John Shelton, the Mormon missionary, BYU student, was in hospice care at the time of this New York Times article by John Branch and Emily Ryan. And they go see him in his hospice bed.
01:25:07
He insists that there is no foul play. He calls that idea hogwash. And he dies a month before the article is published.
01:25:15
But he firmly doesn't believe. But, you know, that's the narrative. That's the narrative that he was at the secret meeting to establish, right?
01:25:23
Yeah, and he wasn't there. Oh, yeah, he wasn't there. But, you know, that's based on everyone.
01:25:30
That's his opinion. Right. Those around the Aconcagua community have more mixed feelings,
01:25:34
Even though the medical examiner felt certain foul play had been involved, they might not adequately understand the damage a fall in the mountain terrain could actually inflict.
01:25:43
So that makes complete sense. But still, looking back at the conditions at the time on the glacier, the amount of soft snow would have made a very long fall improbable or maybe impossible.
01:25:54
So when Janet's camera is found, the film is sent to a special archival photo development company in Canada called Film Rescue.
01:26:02
because they're like what's on here yeah and if just anyone tries to develop it it's going to get
01:26:07
fucked up so they they are able to get all the photos off of it so the camera film and another
01:26:11
roll of film they found are able to be processed and the pictures show the party mostly smiling
01:26:17
in those early stages of the journey hauling gear and setting up camp the photos are beautiful and
01:26:23
well composed um and actually can you show one of them really beautiful photos this is on the
01:26:30
mountain for fucking 50 years. Wow. Just sitting up there. Yeah. Yeah. Also, Zeller and McMillan
01:26:36
said when she turned around and saw that she was gone, he said, well, we weren't tied together.
01:26:42
So she could have just left. But that one photo that she took, they're tied together. Oh, that's
01:26:48
right. So is that her last clue? They are tied together. Whoever took this photo, and we're not
01:26:54
totally positive which one of them that is, they are roped together. Yes. So. So why lie?
01:27:01
Right. What's the lie about? Exactly. So John Branch writes in the New York Times article, quote, if she was oxygen deprived
01:27:07
or delirious, she still knew how to focus the lens, compose the frame and hold the camera
01:27:13
steady to take clear photographs. That is where the film ends. That is where the legend begins.
01:27:20
The film does not solve the mystery. It adds to it. It tells you what Johnson saw in her final hours, but not how she felt, not how she died.
01:27:30
Not every discovery leads to revelation. Some just make you want to know more, end quote.
01:27:36
And that is the story of the Aconcagua Mountain mystery. You can punch me in the face just once.
01:27:42
You goddamn. Just one time you can punch me in the face. You really set that up like we were going to get the solution.
01:27:49
But OK, let's speculate. Pure speculation, allegedly, allegedly, this is just a true crime podcast.
01:27:54
Theory. We're not doctors. That's right. Did one of them go a little— Although we could have been.
01:27:59
It's been 10 years. We could have gotten a PhD. Why don't we have our fucking honorary degrees from Sacramento and L.A. City College yet?
01:28:08
Because they know we're full of shit. So speaking of, so maybe one of them actually kind of had lost it on the mountain and was hallucinating something and killed them.
01:28:19
Yeah. She was not sexually assaulted as well. I don't think that a sane, normal person would be able or have the energy to attack someone like that with being at that elevation.
01:28:30
But if you were hallucinating, if you were delirious. Yeah, if you didn't like a person to the degree where they kind of invaded your space.
01:28:40
Right. And then it's not just anybody. It's this lady that's I'm going to get there for myself is their perception for some reason.
01:28:48
But or she was pushing to keep going and they didn't want to. But I don't think that there was that level of linear thinking at that at that height.
01:28:57
Because they had such bad. Yeah. Like on the way down, he saw, you know, he hallucinated.
01:29:03
So what happened up there? Did he hallucinate there? He was at war and these were soldiers and, you know.
01:29:09
But I guess if that were the case, then when they all got together to put a story together, why wouldn't they be able to say, hey, listen, these are the myriad stories.
01:29:18
Because these are the crazy things we experienced. Because mountaineering would change forever after that.
01:29:25
Like, I see them, these mountaineers, these guys, guys, banding together and being like, let's not get, you know, we're going to get a bunch of press over this.
01:29:37
We just want to like this to kind of be hidden so we can like go on doing what we doing And we don want to ruin these guys like the memories of these people and the lives of the living ones This is speculation I not saying this is true Right right Or right Their entire families because they had altitude sickness and did
01:29:54
And some crazy thing happened. Yeah. That they weren't aware of. They don't remember.
01:29:58
And, you know, in their minds, aren't responsible for. So it sounds to me. That's my argument.
01:30:02
I'm not saying I think that's true. But it sounds like you think that's possible.
01:30:06
Like, as opposed to the usual where it's like, they killed her or whatever. It's like you're like something weird happened for sure.
01:30:13
Yeah. But what they're protecting probably isn't just a pure killer. Right. It's more of an accident situational.
01:30:21
Yeah. I know. Doesn't it seem like, though, that's a little bit more of an argument of not mountaineering?
01:30:27
Because it's like, oh, you'll get up there. No. Yeah. And you'll be hallucinating dead soldiers all around you because you're not supposed to go up that high.
01:30:35
Right. Because our bodies and brains were not meant for that elevation. Yeah. I mean, I got sick in Denver because it was too fucking high.
01:30:43
Do you remember how high we were on stage in Salt Lake City the first time we played there?
01:30:46
We had to take oxygen in the back. It's crazy. Right. And that was like, I'm guessing right now, 3,000 feet above sea level?
01:30:53
Probably. Not even close to this. It's serious. Yeah. But a camera being found in the fucking ice.
01:31:02
Also, it does sound a little fake, them saying, she said, my name is Janet. That whole story seems fake.
01:31:09
Yeah. And oversimplified. Like if you fell and were laying there dying, wouldn't you just be like, get help, leave me, or get help?
01:31:19
I mean, I think leave me makes sense if you're a true mountaineer. I don't know.
01:31:23
Tell us what mountaineering is like at My Favorite Murder at Gmail. Wow. I don't know.
01:31:29
What other mysteries will be uncovered over the years as the snow melts? Those crampons.
01:31:35
Those crampons come rolling along. Ice pick, DNA test them. I mean, he had a hole in his.
01:31:42
Yeah, he got ice picked somehow. Did he fall on it? That's possible. Man. Well, that was a great story.
01:31:51
Thank you. I mean, that was very compelling. I've been excited to tell you about it, despite the ending.
01:31:55
I apologize. I love 70s photographs. Yeah. I love the idea that at the very end, it's like, except for that they were tied together.
01:32:03
Right? That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Well, jump rope, jump on a trampoline. Keep it positive.
01:32:09
Don't go on a mountain. Don't go hiking up a mountain. Don't be a hero. Don't be a hero.
01:32:14
Speak up. Your voice is wanted and needed. Yes, definitely. And, of course, stay sexy.
01:32:19
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production.
01:32:33
Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
01:32:39
This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachi. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin.
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