00:00:00
This is exactly right. of AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Wireless plan
00:00:33
as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit BoostMobile.com. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
00:00:41
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
00:00:50
The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
00:00:57
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:07
How much do you weigh, Wanda? Right now, I'm about 130. I'm at 183. We should race.
00:01:11
No, I want to leave here with my original hips. On the podcast, The Matchup with Aliyah,
00:01:16
I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests. On a recent episode, I sat down with undisputed boxing champ
00:01:22
Clarissa Shields and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard,
00:01:26
the art of trash talk, and what it really means to be ladylike. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the matchup with Aaliyah, and listen now.
00:01:33
Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network. You know the famous author Roald Dahl.
00:01:39
He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? Neither did I.
00:01:46
You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast, The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:01:51
All episodes are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
00:01:55
What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:02:03
Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder.
00:02:28
That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgara. No pointing. Oh, yeah. Sorry. That's against the watch.
00:02:33
I was the only one doing it. Pointing is rude. But don't you ever do it. How are you?
00:02:40
I'm good. I'm grateful to have the job of podcasting today. Same. Yep. Why specifically today?
00:02:48
I don't know. It's just a really nice life. It is. Vince and I were talking about how democracy is going to be over soon.
00:02:55
So, like, how do we celebrate what we have now? That's right. For me, I tell my therapist that when I'm really bummed, I think about if I took a time machine
00:03:04
back to today because the apocalypse has happened. I'm going to look at everything and be like, wow, I was so lucky to have these things and
00:03:14
to be able to talk to these people and to do these. We have a hot dog phone. To have freedom to have a hot dog phone.
00:03:19
So just pretend you're from the future. Yes. Which is a dark, terrible place. Or not.
00:03:25
Or not. Or a rule of six. What's that? Dark, terrible place and five other options.
00:03:31
Okay. Got to do five other options every time. Okay. My therapist does it like this, though.
00:03:35
She puts her hand up and then goes, this is dark, terrible times. It also could be neutral times.
00:03:42
Okay. It could be very bright and shiny times. It could be exactly the same. It could be like we're all working at Macy's all the time.
00:03:49
Yeah. Weird but doable. I could have a desk job. C.V. Richard Ellis Investors. One moment, please.
00:03:54
You could go back there. So quickly. C.V. Richard Ellis Investors. I can't pay my rent.
00:03:59
One moment, please. Now there's your podcast. I mean, you've always worked in the voice area, clearly.
00:04:06
Okay. That was your early training. Yeah. And mine was reading aloud in sixth grade, which was my favorite thing to do.
00:04:12
Oh, you love to be called on. Because they would just go up and down the road. There's no way we haven't talked about this.
00:04:18
But I would just, I would go pick out the paragraph that would be mine. Practice it.
00:04:23
Practice. Not too much, not too little. So you didn't know. You didn't listen to what?
00:04:26
Not a word. You knew what was happening. That was none of my business. I was on that, my paragraphs.
00:04:32
See, that's why that's, yeah. And you killed it every time. Yes. I was very proud of my reading skills.
00:04:37
Oh, yeah. Nice and smooth. Oh. No trips. Yeah. Janet, for every bad thing she did, she fucking.
00:04:43
She taught you to read. She taught me to read them real good. The basics. She covered those basics.
00:04:50
Three hots and a cot and a book that you could actually read for yourself. Belated birthday.
00:04:57
Happy birthday. I just plopped a fucking little gift wrapped gift in front of Karen for her birthday.
00:05:05
I will tell you, listener, it's heavy. It's wrapped in gorgeous wrapping. It's so you.
00:05:10
I saw it. It's from Etsy. Right? Yes. Tell them what it is. It is a Diet Coke ashtray, ladies and gentlemen.
00:05:18
Isn't it cute? It is so beautiful. It looks like hand painted, but then underneath some clear.
00:05:24
It is. Read the maker on the back. Oh, the maker is where W-A-R-E, your snacks. And so she has, you can get that in like, mine would obviously be, it's a potato chip with creme fraiche and caviar on it.
00:05:37
Oh. You can get hot dog. You can get. Mine would obviously be. Who are you? Who are you, Orange County?
00:05:47
Caviar is like my favorite. Mine would obviously be a gold bar on top of some cottage cheese.
00:05:53
Or caviar. I don know Why It just like so indulgent But it basically looking at something that makes your mouth immediately water or makes your thing go that my jam That your identity
00:06:05
So Diet Coke, a can of Diet Coke. I saw that and I was like, I have to get that for Karen.
00:06:09
It could be a catch-all. You don't have to ash and you don't have to take up smoking.
00:06:12
Oh, but I have to. Now that you've given me this, you've required it. And I'm going to go right back to the Capris.
00:06:17
They're thin. Oh, sure. They're easy to smoke. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, look up 1988 Capri cigarettes if you want to know.
00:06:25
Thank you so much. That's a perfect gift. Yeah. Now I have a gift for you that I realized the last time we talked about birthday gift giving.
00:06:32
You were like, it's not my birthday yet. But I was like, oh, just we're going to give each other a gift at the same time.
00:06:37
I like an in-between thing because our birthdays are like almost a month apart. Yes.
00:06:40
So, yeah. A month and a decade. A month and a decade. Yeah. Wow. Almost exactly 10 years apart.
00:06:47
We're a generation apart. Wow. I think that's the hook of this podcast if no one's caught on.
00:06:52
That's true. It's like old and young. You know what I was thinking about, too, is like the fact that we started this podcast when we barely knew each other.
00:07:00
So we were getting to know each other at the same time the audience was getting to know us that way.
00:07:06
If we had already known everything about each other. It would all be facade. Yeah.
00:07:11
So I think that's the secret sauce. Oh, I hate that term. Well, should we call it the Thousand Island dressing of our souls?
00:07:18
I agree. And I also think that we kind of knew it, but we also didn't know it. Right.
00:07:23
I think we both had that, like, we're grabbing hands and jumping off this cliff.
00:07:28
Yeah. Which other people wouldn't have done. Totally. And I think so. There was a feeling of that just discovering this now.
00:07:34
Yeah. But the feeling of that of, like, she's up for this. Right. Whatever this thing is.
00:07:38
Yeah. She's up for it. Yeah. I'm game. Yeah. Thank God. Thank God. And that's this podcast.
00:07:44
Well, thanks for listening. Goodbye. This is our way of saying we quit. Book done.
00:07:49
We both walk out. That's it. Fade to black. Also, just point out that it has been 10 years, but the last time we recorded, our episode was almost two hours long.
00:07:59
I know. So the idea when people are like, aren't you going to run out of stuff? It's like, you would think we would.
00:08:04
Today I'm doing this story that like means so 10 years in and I'm finally doing this story that means so much to me.
00:08:10
It's not like I found a story and like another one. It's like they can still be so important and meaningful and shit.
00:08:16
Unfortunately, there's just a never ending. Yes. There's bad. Parade of. Parade of humans.
00:08:22
That's right. That's the name of the episode. Oh, that's right. I wanted to ask everyone if they know that we name every episode after some ridiculous thing we say in the episode.
00:08:34
And that's like obvious to everyone. But I was like, what if they don't know that?
00:08:38
So like you've got to find the moment we say the dumbass thing that we named the episode.
00:08:44
It's like a little Easter egg. Yeah. And then everyone knows. And then if you figure it out, we'll send you an Easter egg in the mail.
00:08:50
Just one jelly bean. It's old from this last Easter. They smell really bad. But that's your gift.
00:08:56
You know, when we planned this show, there was all kinds of futuristic, technical Easter egg type thinking that we put into it.
00:09:04
Totally. We love Easter eggs. We're like a video game. Yeah. But so real. I mean, this is a simulation.
00:09:10
How could it not be? I'll tell you the thing that the physicist said. Okay. When I worked on the time travel show and somebody asked, that was the first question we asked.
00:09:17
And he said, it doesn't matter. Come on. That's not what I was expecting. Because if it's a simulation, it's so good.
00:09:25
You're right. We don't know. You're right. Or we're just catching on. But if it's a good enough simulation that we don't know.
00:09:31
Right. Then that idea that like I'm stuck in the back rooms or whatever people get online about.
00:09:36
Yeah. And weird in their head. It's like it's better. It's better than that. Go to the beach.
00:09:41
Right. And then think about the simulation. Okay. Go now. Okay. Oh, oh, okay. Oh, oh.
00:09:49
Oh, shit. Wait a second. Well, first, fucking new MFM animated. Oh, my God. That's right.
00:09:55
I haven't watched it yet. Have you? Neither of us have seen this. And so we thought it'd be fun to show you at the same time as we are seeing it for the first time ourselves.
00:10:03
Our friend Nick Terry, by his own free will, makes these incredible animations based on some dumb fucking thing that we've said.
00:10:11
He started it. This is from Minisum 478. It's called Dramamine. If you're not watching it on Netflix.
00:10:17
Please do. Or go look it up. And now we're going to watch it for the first time right here.
00:10:23
It was summer of 2005, and I was eight years old when we took a family vacation to Yosemite and San Francisco.
00:10:30
While in San Fran, we got a boat tour that took us past Alcatraz and to some other island close by.
00:10:37
What is that, Marin? I don't remember there being a two-island stop for the Alcatraz tour, but I haven't been there.
00:10:43
Alcatraz 2. It's smaller and hipper, and there's a disco. there's an amazing nightlife on alcatraz too okay my dad was really nervous that i was going to get
00:10:56
seasick so he gave me three dramamine and we bordered the boat yeah turns out that the serving
00:11:01
size of dramamine for an eight-year-old is half a pill so i was knocked the fuck out hell yeah my
00:11:07
dad happens to be a fireman and it says he's retired now this is so classic so he walked around
00:11:14
the island, Alcatraz, with my sleeping eight-year-old body thrown over his shoulder in a fireman's
00:11:20
carry. So can I just stop here to tell you this? And this is the most absolute dad life thing I will ever tell you, which is that at night
00:11:29
when we were little, my dad, you could do the fireman's carry, you could do sack of
00:11:34
potatoes, or you could ride a horse to bed. Those are the three ways we got carried to bed.
00:11:38
And you got to pick which one? Yeah. That's so cute. So fireman's, you're just bent over his shoulder.
00:11:45
Sack of potatoes, he's holding you by your ankle. And you're behind? Oh, my God.
00:11:50
But then the horse you got on back and you put your hand over his mouth to feed the horse and he ran down the hallway and threw you on the bed Can he do it Can I have that I mean that might be the greatest privilege Yeah having a firefighter
00:12:05
Dad. Oh, my God. So that's, I think this one gets me, especially because he just basically,
00:12:10
like every fireman's like, we're just going to solve this problem. Just fucking.
00:12:13
Okay. So he would occasionally stop and wake me up to eat ice cream and drink water with my eyes closed.
00:12:19
My mom and brother took normal pictures and occasionally included me. Weekend of Bernie's.
00:12:24
I can see you have a picture. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's the best picture, too.
00:12:29
The only thing that I actually remember about that day is waking up on a park bench next to a dog wearing sunglasses.
00:12:36
Oh, she's awake in it. Oh, my God. She woke up at the end of all that and was like, hey.
00:12:42
That is the cutest thing I've ever seen. Wow. Oh, what a joyful thing to have. I completely forgot that we knew what that little girl looked like.
00:12:56
That's why the headband was so funny to me. It looked exciting. We have an actual photo of her.
00:13:00
Well, that was from Lizzie originally. Lizzie, I hope this is bringing you so much joy.
00:13:06
You now have a character in the Nick Terry MFM animated universe. Based off of you as a child, like the real photo of you.
00:13:12
God, that's so special. I love it so much. So good. Wow, that was so funny. I was wondering if your dad was going to throw me over his shoulder.
00:13:19
That would have been rad. Oh, that's right. To give you what you wanted. Yeah, because I was like, can I do it?
00:13:24
And Jim was like, no. I only have this one thing, which is the funny interpretation.
00:13:28
As I saw it, you rode the horse kind of like a monkey on his back. So he had your legs in his arms.
00:13:35
Okay. It wasn't. Because if you ran down a hallway on your dad's shoulders, I think.
00:13:40
Slammed into the door chain. But not to criticize after the fact. Sure. That was a joy.
00:13:45
Sure. Can we edit? Can we get that? Edit it. Stand in. And if there's round of notes, I have this to say.
00:13:51
No, Nick Terry, we love you so much. Thank you so much. What a joy. So good. Okay, should we do network highlights?
00:13:58
Yes, we have a podcast network. It's the fucking best. Only cool people. Like, you wouldn't even believe it.
00:14:03
So it's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights. And one of the podcasts that is on this network is called The Knife.
00:14:10
We love it. Hannah and Peisha continue their unbelievable story of Paul Fronczak,
00:14:16
who was kidnapped from a Chicago hospital as a newborn in 1964. In this episode, as he digs deeper into his identity,
00:14:23
he uncovers secrets that completely rewrite the story of his life. So wild. Yeah.
00:14:29
And then over on this podcast, We'll Kill You, Aaron and Aaron just keep bringing it.
00:14:33
How do they even think of these things? This time they tackle motion sickness. Just to go along with that MFM animated.
00:14:38
Right. Tell me everything. From boats to planes to the world's grossest historical cures.
00:14:43
Yes. They break down why our brains and bodies completely betray us and me while traveling.
00:14:49
Because you take three pills instead of half. And on this week's That's Messed Up,
00:14:54
Kara and Lisa recap episode 18 from season seven of Law & Order SVU entitled Venom.
00:15:01
And their special guest this week is Joe Grafici. Plus, over on Ghosted, Roz is joined by drag queen and comedian Juno Birch.
00:15:08
And then just really quick over in the merch corner, the fan favorite Married Joggers.
00:15:13
fuck you, I'm married, are officially back just in time for wedding season. That's right.
00:15:18
Grab a pair for yourself, your partner, or your favorite legally bound murderino
00:15:21
at exactlyrightstore.com. And don't forget, you can watch brand new episodes of My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones
00:15:28
every week on frickin' Netflix. Here we are. Have you seen yourself? Have you, like, been scrolling and just suddenly there's your face?
00:15:35
Or there's last podcast on the left's faces? I came home to my own face because while I was away, my dog sitter put on the podcast video for the dogs.
00:15:45
Oh, my God. Right? To see if it would help dog sit. We put on reggae because we heard that dogs like chill out reggae.
00:15:53
Yeah. But I should put my own fucking voice on, although Cookie loves Vince more than me.
00:15:57
So we should put on his podcast. Yes, that's right. She's going to be like, this bitch is still here.
00:16:02
Where's my reggae? Telling me what to do. Tell Bob Marley. Your husband is not who you think he is.
00:16:08
Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history.
00:16:13
I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
00:16:21
Just then, we felt the plane turn in the air. So much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:16:30
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy. how it shapes our identities and relationships,
00:16:37
and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,
00:16:44
but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything,
00:16:48
and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move,
00:16:53
and he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off, and that was the last time I saw him.
00:16:58
Listen to Season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:17:06
You know the famous author Roald Dahl. He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy?
00:17:13
Neither did I. You can hear all about his wildlife story in the podcast The Secret World of Roald Dahl.
00:17:19
All episodes are out now. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
00:17:24
What? Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Binge all 10 episodes of The Secret World of Roald Dahl
00:17:31
now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl.
00:17:38
This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now.
00:17:42
Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all.
00:17:50
As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn compromise who you are and your integrity You know I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
00:18:08
How much you weigh, Wanda? Right now, I'm about 130. I'm at 183. We should race.
00:18:12
No, I want to leave here with my original hips. On the podcast to match up with Lalia,
00:18:16
I pair prominent female athletes with unexpected guests. On a recent episode, I sat down with undisputed boxing champ
00:18:22
Claressa Shields and comedian Wanda Sykes to talk about Wanda's new movie, Undercard,
00:18:26
the art of trash talk and what it really means to be ladylike. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search the matchup with Aaliyah and listen now.
00:18:33
Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network. Okay, you're first this week.
00:18:40
I'm first and wow. Okay, so I've been studying up until like while I put my makeup on to the minute that
00:18:47
I left the house. Love it. When we were in high school, we spent a day or two in history class learning about Vietnam, right?
00:18:55
Like, yes. The basics. Sure. Breezed over it, moved on with our lives. This sounds like a brag, but it's not.
00:19:01
So I was really into the band Dead Kennedys. And because of that, they sing about a lot of historical stuff.
00:19:06
So I was really into that band. And then I would go look up the things they were singing about.
00:19:11
And one of those things. Pol Pot. Exactly. I literally was like, Mom, what's Pol Pot?
00:19:15
Yep. turns out, and the song is called Holiday in Cambodia. So I learned a bunch about it. I was
00:19:20
really into Vietnam. I read the book, The Killing Fields, watched the movie. And through the Dead
00:19:26
Kennedy's music, basically, they kind of like made you go, what is this about? Why would they be
00:19:30
singing? Exactly. That I mean, like, they also have a song about who was shot in San Francisco.
00:19:35
Oh, Harvey Milk. Like they just you learn about shit you wouldn't know. So Pol Pot, Cambodia.
00:19:41
Let's start here. It's a Sunday in late February 1996, and we're in Los Angeles' Chinatown.
00:19:51
It's about 8.45 p.m., and residents hear something that sounds like firecrackers,
00:19:56
then make a horrifying discovery in the garage of a small apartment building. Neighbors find the body of a beloved fixture in Los Angeles' Cambodian community
00:20:05
and in the Cambodian community worldwide. He had been shot getting out of his car.
00:20:11
And what police will ultimately decide was a robbery gone wrong, but this will remain up for debate.
00:20:16
The reason for this is that the man who had been killed had been a vocal critic of Cambodia's government and a survivor of the genocidal Pol Pot regime.
00:20:26
And just to give you some numbers, that led to the deaths of an estimated 1.5 to 3 million people, which is a quarter of the country's population.
00:20:34
Wow. This man had been a doctor, a forced laborer, a refugee, a community advocate, and in a surprise turn, an Oscar-winning actor.
00:20:43
In fact, he was the first person of Asian heritage to win the award. May is AAPI Heritage Month, and this is the story of The Amazing Life, Brave Actions, and Tragic Death of Hang Noir.
00:20:58
Wow. The main source for the story is a documentary called The Killing Fields of Dr. Hang S. Noir.
00:21:03
Fucking can't recommend it enough. It tells you so much information. Also, you should watch The Killing Fields.
00:21:08
It's incredible. He plays a Cambodian journalist. Right. You know who I'm talking about.
00:21:13
Like the main character, basically. So the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.
00:21:17
I've been wanting to do the story for so long, but I just wanted to make sure I did it right.
00:21:21
And I really want to thank Ali Elkin, my researcher, for doing such an incredible job of putting this together for me.
00:21:27
Nice. Hang Noor is born into a reasonably well-to-do family in Cambodia. His father has several agricultural businesses, owning both rice fields and lumber yards.
00:21:37
He's born in 1940 and his family lives in the countryside. So they are just living this traditional life that their families have for generations in the agricultural business.
00:21:47
They're not really far out from Phnom Penh, the capital city, but their life is just kind of a peaceful everyday life.
00:21:54
For Olive Heng's life, there is some degree of political unrest in Cambodia. and all of it is stirred up to varying extents by Western colonialism.
00:22:03
So he's born under French colonial rule in a land that is still called at the time French Indochina,
00:22:10
which also includes modern-day Laos and Vietnam. And throughout his childhood, there's a guerrilla effort to overthrow the French colonizers.
00:22:18
Hang's family at times is caught up in the middle of this. His parents had been kidnapped for ransom by corrupt members of both sides of this conflict on multiple occasions.
00:22:27
Wow. So that's what everyday life is like. Multiple kidnapping. Yes. Horrifying.
00:22:33
Part of the reason for this is that Heng's father is ethnically Chinese and his mother is part of the Cambodian ethnic majority, which is the Khmer.
00:22:40
So they are each victimized in turn for different reasons. But this is ultimately a low level inconvenience in comparison to what happens later in Cambodia's history.
00:22:49
As a teenager, Heng moves to Phnom Penh to try to shelter from all this unrest in the countryside.
00:22:55
He's very, very smart, like top of his class. He eventually goes to medical school.
00:23:00
And while he's there, he meets a fellow student named Hoi and she's training to become a teacher and they fall in love.
00:23:06
This is so truncated. Yeah. The documentary is incredible. Hang becomes a gynecologist.
00:23:11
And in this time period, Cambodia becomes independent and under the leadership of a monarch who then becomes an elected leader.
00:23:19
And at the same time, in the late 60s and early 70s, the Vietnam War begins. And eventually the United States conducts a brutal bombing campaign on parts of Cambodia along the border with Vietnam.
00:23:31
And so Ali added this famous quote in the research from Anthony Bourdain that says, quote,
00:23:39
Once you've been to Cambodia, you'll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands.
00:23:44
You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking.
00:24:00
Witness what Henry did to Cambodia, the fruits of his genius for statesmanship, and you'll never understand why he's not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milosevic, end quote, as in fucking war crimes.
00:24:14
Everybody knows this already, but I just want to say it again. The loss of a mind and a spirit like Anthony Bourdain, where he is a speaker of truth to power in that way.
00:24:24
There's not enough guys like that anymore where they're like, no, fuck you and the truth times 20.
00:24:30
Yeah, like this might hurt my career. Yeah. But free Palestine. This is actually, yes, exactly.
00:24:35
This is what we are supposed to be doing here. Totally. Why are we pretending that this isn't disgusting?
00:24:40
Exactly. So thank you to Ali for including that. So with this in the background in 1970, when Hang is 30 years old and a practicing physician, and he just has this like kind of normal life.
00:24:52
He's got friends. He's got family. He's got this girlfriend he loves. He's a doctor.
00:24:57
He has this mentality that everything is fine and the warring is going to come to a truce.
00:25:02
And like so many people, just pretends like it's not going to affect him and doesn't pay attention to it at all.
00:25:09
At this place, this is when Cambodia's government is overthrown in a coup. So Cambodia's prime minister is a man named Norodham Sianak, and he had originally been appointed king by the French and then led Cambodia to independence and abdicated his position, then was elected by an overwhelming majority.
00:25:30
So people seem pretty happy with this. But then he goes out of town and there is a coup that is orchestrated by two government officials who are his opponents.
00:25:41
And they only had support from a small minority of Cambodian elites. But some believe they were aided by the Americans.
00:25:48
Probably true. So these officials take over. They allow the Americans to invade the southern border with Vietnam to force out North Vietnamese fighters.
00:25:56
and the influx of American money into Cambodia ushers in a time of prosperity for some,
00:26:01
including Hang's father, who buys a second lumber mill. But in the countryside, poorer and more rural Cambodians are coalescing their support around
00:26:11
Sienok, now in exile in China, who has always been, he'd always been beloved. People believed that he was appointed by God or that he was a god.
00:26:20
And behind this unlikely ally to the countryside and poor Cambodians is the leader of Cambodia's Communist Party, Pol Pot.
00:26:29
Here we are. Here we are. Okay. This group becomes the Khmer Rouge. They are actually ethnically Khmer.
00:26:35
And then Rouge, I think, means red, right? So red is communist. Hey. So in 1975, the Khmer Rouge, under the leadership of Pol Pot, but with the encouragement of Sienok, marches into Phnom Penh and deposes the new government.
00:26:52
They take over. The regular Cambodians who are there are kind of rejoicing, thinking that finally the Khmer Rouge are going to bring some kind of peace and normality and quickly learn that's not true.
00:27:02
It's a big part of the movie The Killing Fields. Right. So the Khmer Rouge launch a new ultra-authoritarian communist regime that they nickname Year Zero.
00:27:13
Like, shit is over. Everything you thought you knew, done. Gone. The idea is that the country is starting from scratch, and educated people and professionals are specifically targeted to be killed or imprisoned.
00:27:26
So it basically becomes this ultra-ultra-communist country and lifestyle. All private property is outlawed.
00:27:33
Every aspect of life is dictated by the Pol Pot regime. There's no such thing as private property.
00:27:38
There's no money. You can't even have your own cooking utensils and make yourself food.
00:27:42
You have to eat in the big groups because everyone is equal. You can't wear glasses.
00:27:49
Husbands and wives are separated. Children are separated. It just becomes this prison.
00:27:55
Yeah. There's no money. There are no clocks or calendars. Citizens are just assigned to labor details and non-Khmeres especially become forced laborers.
00:28:05
So they're all sent out of the big cities back into the countryside to work. Then Ali wrote, note to Georgia, it feels important to mention that this vision of communism is often used as a reason why we shouldn't have any kind of socialized systems like health care.
00:28:19
But this is authoritarianism. And whenever its ideology is communist or fascist, it can result in similar violence and wiping out of civil liberties.
00:28:29
Yeah. So thank you, Ali, for noting that. Yeah. You put authoritarianism on really anything.
00:28:34
Right. And it turns into that exact same thing. So when all of this had begun, as I said, Hang is a doctor.
00:28:39
And at that moment that everything gets changed, he is operating on a patient when the Khmer Rouge storm the clinic that he's in.
00:28:48
One operative holds a gun to his head and asks him if he is the attending physician, which he is.
00:28:54
But as I said, any educated professionals are wiped out. So he lies and says the attending had just stepped out of the room, essentially posing as a lower level clinic staffer, which saves his life.
00:29:07
He can't tell anyone he's a doctor. He's then caught up in a forced evacuation from Phnom Penh and is separated from his girlfriend, Hoi, and his family, separated from everyone.
00:29:18
So Heng lies about being a doctor since educated people are automatically just being killed.
00:29:23
Hang, like most other people, is assigned to an agricultural labor detail in which he is required to push a plow through fields.
00:29:30
That is a job that livestock would have primarily done. And they just put people on the like oxen cart to push through the fields.
00:29:38
They turned the whole country into slave labor. Slave labor. Yeah. During this period, between 1.5 and 3 million people are killed in Cambodia through execution, starvation and disease.
00:29:48
Hang is tortured on multiple occasions usually for stealing food because he's starving
00:29:54
on one occasion he tied to a tree overnight and he bitten all over his body by red ants And on another occasion he and multiple other forced laborers are put on crucifixes with their bare feet over smoldering fires
00:30:07
And he watches as a pregnant woman who is being punished the same way die while this is happening.
00:30:14
And in the documentary, he is interviewed in the States about what happened, what that was like.
00:30:19
And he gets into some really gory details in front of this audience. And it's just horrible, but it's so incredible that he is brave enough to tell the awful things that they did to people.
00:30:30
When they're being punished like this, what was the justification? Do you know? Like, what was the point of putting those people up on crucifixes like that?
00:30:37
They stole food. This is your punishment. But this is also a lesson to everyone that this is what happens.
00:30:44
Because everyone is equal. They get the same amount of food. If you're stealing food, you think you're better than the government.
00:30:49
You think you know more. You're punished. The crucifixion. Yeah. Heng eventually does reunite with Hoi, who becomes pregnant.
00:30:58
There's already not enough food to sustain someone who isn't pregnant, and Hoi begins to starve.
00:31:04
When she's seven months along, she goes into early labor. And obviously, there's no way to get her any kind of medical attention.
00:31:11
And there's no medicine. There's no equipment. And here's the thing. Heng is a trained gynecologist.
00:31:17
and he could have operated, attempted to save her, though he has no safe tools or medicine,
00:31:23
but the operation would likely kill her. He knew that. She was going to die either way.
00:31:28
If he attempted to save her, he would out himself as a doctor. So he couldn't do anything.
00:31:37
And Hoi dies in his arms and the baby dies too. After Hoi dies, Hang actively tries to get killed.
00:31:43
He just doesn't give a fuck anymore. And the guilt, the horror of that, like when you're in a survival situation like that, you're just having to make these calls that are beyond.
00:31:54
And I feel like there's so many people like when we learn about Vietnam and Cambodia, it's like that's what their lives were like always.
00:32:00
They were used to it. And I think people need to remember that that's not the case.
00:32:03
Like that it's the exact same thing as if that started happening to us right now.
00:32:07
Like the horror that if you saw a pregnant woman being tortured, it's not like you've been seeing that since you were a child.
00:32:15
you're used to it, which I think is sometimes the justification in people's minds that it's like
00:32:18
not as bad somehow. I feel like any time that is what's coming out of your mouth. Right. That's
00:32:24
what. Yeah. Yeah. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? And also just the
00:32:28
oppression, that level of extreme and just like oppression as far as the eye can see is such a
00:32:34
hopeless, horrible situation to be in. I really don't think I would try to survive. I really don't
00:32:40
think I would. I mean, I've thought about it so many times with like, you know, the Holocaust,
00:32:43
too. It's like, I don't think I'd be walking. I think I'd be laying down. Well, you say that. Right, that's true.
00:32:48
You say that. But then, remember the guy that basically ran away from the Nazis and had to keep running for like four
00:32:55
months or something? Right, yeah. Like that's a human survival instinct. Yeah. That's what you
00:32:59
do. And if you can get away, you do get away and then you keep going. And then you build from there and then you get used to
00:33:05
being scared and then you help other people that are scared. Exactly. And I mean, that's
00:33:09
what every immigrant story really is. Seriously, you don't want them win. Yeah, you go through the real shit and then you come back and help other people go through shit.
00:33:16
Right. That's very, very dismissive of an experience I am two generations away from and have no idea.
00:33:24
In terms of what you are talking about, it's like, it's unbelievable. Well, you notice, this is going to sound so corny, but like generational trauma, right?
00:33:32
We all know that's a thing that's passed down. But the fact that we're alive means there was also generational like chutzpah.
00:33:40
Yeah. Meaning as they were traumatized, they stayed alive and kept living and lived long enough to fall in love and have children.
00:33:48
And that's why we're alive. So we have generational trauma for sure. Yeah. But we also have whatever the fuck it was, the chutzpah that kept them alive.
00:33:57
And a perfect source of real gratitude. Yeah. For every day. So Hoi dies and Heng is over life.
00:34:04
He steals food at every opportunity, just trying to get killed, essentially. but somehow he makes it until 1978 when the Vietnamese invade Cambodia.
00:34:14
This sets off a decade of warfare between the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese. Now that there's the chaos of fighting to distract the Khmer Rouge,
00:34:23
Heng has an opportunity to escape. With a large group, he travels to the Thailand border.
00:34:29
Out of the 200 people that escape with his group, only 17 people make it alive across the Thai border.
00:34:35
The only living relative or person he knows at that point is his young niece named Sophia, and they escaped together.
00:34:43
Once in Bangkok, Hang works as a volunteer doctor at a refugee camp. So despite all of these fucking horrors that he's gone through, all this PTSD, he still becomes—he could just—doesn't have to do anything but survive.
00:34:55
But instead, he volunteers to be a doctor at this refugee camp. I bet you there was part of him that was just like, I finally get to be a doctor again.
00:35:03
Do what I'm made for. My skills and like actually do something about this horror that I'm surrounded by.
00:35:09
Totally. Hang takes the only thing he has is a photo of Hoy. And when he escapes, he has it professionally colorized and puts it into a custom gold locket.
00:35:20
Wears that around his neck so she can be close to his heart at all times. And then he and his young niece Sophia move to the United States.
00:35:28
Wow. So Hang and Sophia, who's a teenager now, settle in Los Angeles in 1980. Almost their entire family, in addition to Hoy, had been killed by the Khmer Rouge.
00:35:39
He trains to take his board so that he can practice medicine and works as a volunteer with refugees.
00:35:45
So right around this time, and this is just, he could have lived the rest of his life out like that.
00:35:50
But for some reason fate intervened and this bananas thing happens to him Right around the same time director Ronald Joffe is preparing to make the film The Killing Fields It based on the true accounts of two journalists one a Cambodian named Dirth Pran and one an American named Sidney Schandberg
00:36:10
And they had written the book The Killing Fields. And so the casting director, Pat Golden, is working really hard to find the perfect person to play Dith and hasn't had any luck.
00:36:19
So she somehow finagles her way into a Cambodian wedding in order to scout for her actor.
00:36:27
And this is where she discovers Hang. And he just seems like a really charming, happy person.
00:36:34
He's smiling and laughing a lot despite everything that happened to him. He's very outgoing and gregarious.
00:36:39
He says when he was a kid, he was hyperactive and he's just really likable. And so something about him catches her eye.
00:36:46
It had never crossed Hang's mind to be an actor. In Cambodia at the time, actors are not particularly well paid or respected.
00:36:54
But he decides to go on an audition and just have a good time with it. He's like, here's a weird opportunity to have in my life.
00:37:00
Let's do it. And there's a video of his audition. The man is a survivor of concentration camps.
00:37:06
Right. He's just like, sure. Yes. And he blows everyone away with his raw emotion.
00:37:11
And when you watch the documentary and you watch this audition, you completely get it.
00:37:15
And you see that what he did is just took himself back to his actual pain and the actual things he experienced of the story that he is telling in this movie.
00:37:26
It wasn't a hard stretch for him. Yeah. And he's able to do it. And so he's cast in the movie along with Sam Waterston, our Law and Order, you know.
00:37:34
The greatest man. The greatest actor ever to live. The greatest man ever to live.
00:37:39
Here's a photo of them from The Killing Fields. Oh, look at a young Sam Waterston.
00:37:44
I know. I know. Damn. It's such an incredible movie. Like, I get Full Metal Jacket, but this is the movie that you should watch.
00:37:51
Also, just looking at his face, he had to go to a reenactment of a thing he actually lived through.
00:37:58
And he just said he channeled it the whole time. And also he was telling them what it was really like the whole time.
00:38:03
Wow. On set, Hang has that same access to all his very real emotions and experiences.
00:38:08
And he's able to consult with the actors who hadn't had direct experiences with the Khmer Rouge.
00:38:14
When the movie comes out in 1984, it bears the brutal truth of the Khmer Rouge regime to the world.
00:38:20
And Hang is considered a frontrunner for the Best Supporting Actor Oscar. And you know who he beat for Best Supporting Actor?
00:38:29
Somebody like Robert Duvall? John Malkovich. Oh, yeah. He's also in this movie. But John Malkovich, like one of the greatest trained actors of all time.
00:38:38
And he wins. And so that year's Oscars are held at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which is downtown, and Heng and Sophia live in Chinatown.
00:38:48
So they're like able to see where they're— They could walk home, change their clothes, come back.
00:38:54
They're not in Beverly fucking Hills or Brentwood. Yes. So they vastly underestimate how long it's going to take them to get there in Oscar traffic because they're like, it's five minutes away.
00:39:02
It won't take as long. They just barely make it on time. And they didn't realize that the Supporting Actor Award is the first presented award that night.
00:39:10
So when they're announcing the nominees, they have to put a photo of him up because he's not even in his seat yet.
00:39:16
Like they can't pan to his seat. He's literally that late. And as he's walking in, his name gets called and he walks straight in and up to the fucking podium and gives like the speech will make you cry.
00:39:27
It's so beautiful. Here's a photo of him winning. It's just such a beautiful moment.
00:39:33
You can tell he's so humbled by this opportunity to show what happened to his people.
00:39:38
Yeah. Yeah. And it's such a representative of like the Oscars is the world kind of.
00:39:43
Right. And so then it's like the world. Yeah. Yeah. And he brought his niece along. I think she was 15 at the time and she was a tomboy.
00:39:51
And he said to her, you need to get a dress. And she's like, I don't want to do this.
00:39:54
She goes anyways. She's in the documentary. So in his acceptance speech, he says, quote, this is unbelievable, but so is my entire life.
00:40:02
I wish to thank all members of the Motion Picture Academy for this great honor. I thank David Putnam, Roland Jaffe for giving me this chance to act for the first time in the killing fields.
00:40:11
And I share this award to my friend Sam Watterson, Dith Pran, Sidney Schamberg, and also Pat Golden, the casting lady who found me for this role.
00:40:20
And I thank Warner Brothers for helping me tell the story to the world, let the world know what happened in my country.
00:40:25
And I thank God, Buddha, that tonight I'm even here. End quote. I'm not giving it what it deserves.
00:40:30
Well, you're not supposed to do it. That's okay. I'm not supposed to feel that. Oh.
00:40:35
No, but I mean, just everything about that is such a, especially back then when it was like the time of auteurs.
00:40:42
And I mean, I remember seeing The Killing Fields on Siskel and Ebert on the weekend because, of course, my parents always watched that.
00:40:48
Where it's like, oh, that's heavy. I don't think I could watch that. Whatever. Why I'm always like.
00:40:53
Yeah. And that took over the zeitgeist, essentially, that year. And everyone paid attention.
00:40:58
Totally. I mean, there were so many incredible movies coming out at the time. So the fact that it broke through really says a lot about all of it.
00:41:05
Go to hell, John Malkovich. And that's our message of this podcast. If there's any message to take away.
00:41:12
John Malkovich, we love you. He's not here. He's not here. He's so mad. Yeah, but our friend was going to tell him.
00:41:19
I'm sure they're friends. Oh, Paul Giamatti. Paul Giamatti's got to be friends with fucking John Malkovich.
00:41:22
Oh, you mean all those powerful character actors that know each other? Yeah, they must.
00:41:26
Come on. Okay, so Hane gets more roles, but he also really dedicates himself to telling the world
00:41:31
what happened in his country. He uses his fame to get the message and goes on a lot of like talk
00:41:35
shows. At this point in the late 80s and through the 90s, no one from the Khmer Rouge has been
00:41:41
punished and their predecessors continue to hold power in the Cambodian government. Though the
00:41:45
extreme and genocidal policies have been walked back a bit, Pol Pot goes into hiding. Hang testifies
00:41:52
before Congress about his experiences and is an extremely outspoken critic of the Cambodian government At one speaking engagement he notes the brutality portrayed in the Killing Fields then saying quote The Killing Fields isn bad enough suffering enough bloody enough end quote
00:42:09
He does this work prolifically through the first half of the 90s. He's actively speaking out against the current Cambodian government,
00:42:16
which again has vestiges of the old Khmer Rouge. In the wake of the fall of Western communism,
00:42:23
Cambodia is in a period of transition with some unrest, though nothing like what he had seen.
00:42:29
And Sienok is still influential and somehow evades blame for the Khmer Rouge, even though he had lent his support to it.
00:42:38
So this brings us back to the night that Hang is killed outside his Los Angeles apartment building in 1996.
00:42:45
And this is like I remember hearing about this and it just is he what the things he survived that we'll never understand.
00:42:53
And he comes to it's just like I remember feeling shame that we did this to him after what he survived.
00:43:01
Like our country, my city did this to him, you know. So Hang had been shot and he's found lying next to his car with his Rolex watch missing.
00:43:11
but there's $2,900 in cash undisturbed in his car. And the immediate impression in the news and among Hang's neighbors
00:43:19
is that he had been targeted by allies of the Cambodian government because of his outspoken criticism.
00:43:24
They immediately knew he was trying to be silenced. Other people raised the possibility that organized crime could be involved
00:43:30
since Hang had several business interests in Cambodia, including his family lumberyard, which he still had.
00:43:37
So it's a surprise to everyone when three young men, all Asian American and all affiliated with a gang are charged with Hang's murder. All three men
00:43:45
maintain that they had been about a mile away at the time of Hang's death. At trial, prosecutors
00:43:51
say that the men had demanded Hang's locket with the picture of Hoy in it that he still wore and
00:43:56
that he had refused to give it up. And this is why they killed him. That was the prosecution's
00:44:01
story. People take issue with this argument because Hang's pockets were thought to have
00:44:06
been undisturbed and there's $2,900 left in his car. All three men are found guilty on April 18,
00:44:13
1998, the same day Pol Pot dies in exile in the jungle on the Thai-Cambodian border.
00:44:20
Wow. Yeah. After Hang's death, Dith Pran, the journalist upon whose story The Killing Fields is based,
00:44:25
says, quote, he's like a twin with me. He's my co-messenger and right now I'm alone, end quote.
00:44:32
There are no trials for members of the Khmer Rouge until the early 2010s when the U.N. holds them alongside the Cambodian government.
00:44:42
Three high-ranking officials are sentenced to life in prison. During one of these trials, the official says that Hang Noor's murder had been ordered by the Khmer Rouge as retribution for his speaking out against the regime.
00:44:56
An organization called the Innocence Center has taken up the case of one of the three men who had been convicted of his murder.
00:45:02
After the release of The Killing Fields, Hang had said, quote, If I die from now on, okay, this film will go on for a hundred years.
00:45:11
And that is the story of the life and legend of Cambodian-American truth teller and hero Hang Noor.
00:45:19
Wow. I almost did it at our LA live show, but I was like, it's too heavy. It's so heavy.
00:45:27
I mean, but it's incredible. It's like, that's what makes it like all of that. And then you walk straight into the Oscars and win.
00:45:34
What a life. Beyond. I mean, what an incredible life. Yeah. And what a strong person and what a.
00:45:41
A great example for Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Yes. I mean, it is though.
00:45:48
You took the words out of my mouth. It is. That's a great example of someone who's like been through an absolute governmental nightmare.
00:45:56
Basically the fabric of reality falling apart around him. His whole family dying and losing everything.
00:46:02
Not dying, being murdered. Being murdered. And then being an immigrant where he just builds and builds and builds and builds.
00:46:10
And then comes back to do something about it. Totally. Doesn't just move on with his life.
00:46:15
Incredible. Yeah. So hang no. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was.
00:46:23
Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.
00:46:34
Just then, we felt the plane turn in the air. So much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.
00:46:43
Each week, we dive headfirst into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships,
00:46:50
and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know,
00:46:57
but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything.
00:47:01
And me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.
00:47:06
And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him.
00:47:11
Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:47:18
When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?
00:47:24
Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prince's Music is Therapy, a weekly podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.
00:47:31
It's Mental Health Month. Let's figure out what actually works. I didn't care about my life circumstance when I listened to that stuff. It didn't matter to me.
00:47:38
This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for you every day. Open your free iHeartRadio app,
00:47:45
search DJ Hester Prince Music is Therapy, and start listening now. We were talking about a fit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.
00:48:03
And then I wrote down on my little notepad, hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.
00:48:10
But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey, Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:48:16
Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Joy is essential, and it's also elusive.
00:48:22
But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence.
00:48:27
Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotb. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy,
00:48:35
tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Joy 101, and listen now.
00:48:44
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS. Well, we are going to take a left turn.
00:48:51
Please. I don't want to surprise you, but this is also based on the Dead Kennedy song.
00:48:56
That's not true at all. And it's actually maybe the complete other end of the spectrum.
00:49:02
This story is the main story. If you were a kid in the 90s and in elementary school, a teacher read you a book about a family of pioneers.
00:49:14
Bernstein Bears. Close. It's called Apples to Oregon by a writer named Deborah Hopkinson.
00:49:19
And it follows an 1800s Midwestern family and their westward journey. and it is loosely based on the life of a successful horticulturalist
00:49:29
who's also known as the Johnny Appleseed of the West. Oh. Yeah. There's the story of his life after all his pioneering days were over
00:49:36
and his fruit trees were planted, he went into a different branch of life. He attempted to start what's been described as a doomed Quaker sex cult.
00:49:46
Oh, dear. This is the story of horticulturalist Henderson Llewellyn. Okay. Are you ready?
00:49:53
I'm so ready. Okay, main sources used for today's story are reporting by Finn J.D. John from the Offbeat Oregon website, writing by Heather Arndt Anderson from Portland Monthly, and archival editions of the Iowa Journal of History and the Sacramento Bee, your favorite newspaper.
00:50:12
And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So Henderson Llewellyn's story begins in 1809 when he is born to a Quaker family in North Carolina.
00:50:21
So this is one of those 1800 stories that there's spotty reporting on some stuff.
00:50:28
It's back far enough that it's like we're pretty sure that he blank, blank, blank.
00:50:32
There's a lot of that kind of storytelling. Prehistoric. It's very prehistoric in that it is like pioneer era life.
00:50:39
Right. Not a lot of when you're out on the prairie fighting for your life. Not a lot of diary keeping.
00:50:45
Right. Not a lot of daily. There's not a lot of journaling. Not a lot of sources to find the truth.
00:50:51
We needed more scrapbooking back then. More vlogging. Oh, my God. Just vlogging on a nice stone outside of town, down by the river.
00:51:01
Okay, so when Henderson is in his teens, he and his family and many other southern Quakers move to Indiana,
00:51:08
likely influenced by the Quaker community's growing opposition to slavery. So they wanted to get out of the south.
00:51:14
And when they moved to Indiana, Henderson's father opens a nursery and he and his brothers help run.
00:51:20
It's the family business. He helps run it. He will later marry another Carolina-born Quaker.
00:51:26
Her name is Elizabeth Presnell. And when he's in his 20s, Henderson opens his own nursery.
00:51:33
So this is a story for Janet. Oh, my God. My mom would love this. She loves horticulture.
00:51:38
She's such a horticulturist. in the 1830s when Henderson is in his 30s because he was born around 1800. He moves west again to
00:51:46
eastern Iowa. So this is after the Black Hawk War and the federal government had forcibly removed
00:51:52
both the Sauk and the Fox tribes from their land. And now they were actively encouraging white
00:51:59
settlers to come and basically settle that land by selling it to them for next to nothing.
00:52:05
So the Llewellings benefit from that, and they settle in Salem, Iowa. Again, Henderson opens a nursery.
00:52:13
He offers high-quality seedlings and grafted trees. So I know you know this because you're Janet's daughter,
00:52:20
but grafting is when you take the roots from a strong tree and you attach them to the shoot or a bud from another tree
00:52:27
so that the produce is really good fruit. You're Frankensteining fruit trees, essentially.
00:52:32
Got it. It's what you did all summer. every summer. So as more settlers arrive in Salem, virtually all of them become Henderson's
00:52:40
customers because this is basically like they're settling this land and planting it. And he
00:52:44
brilliantly or, you know, whether or not it was intentional, he's in this business that is always
00:52:50
needed. Yeah. Like no matter what, there's a demand for basically being able to grow your own
00:52:55
food. Yeah. So Henderson's grafted trees reliably generate so many cherries, apples, pears, plums,
00:53:03
and peaches that per one source, quote, the local market could not absorb the yield.
00:53:09
Wow. So he's making it possible for everybody to live large. So his business is a massive success.
00:53:15
And he and Elizabeth take this prosperity and they invest it into their home, but not
00:53:20
in the way that you would think, not the usual pioneer luxuries, red velvet curtains and
00:53:25
soap. Instead, they build trap doors and hiding places and then offer it as a stop on the
00:53:31
Underground Railroad. Wow. Because they are Quakers. Right. Today, that house is on the National Register of Historical Places.
00:53:39
Wow. Problem is that when Llewellyn's church learns that they are doing this for the people searching for freedom that way, they do not approve of it.
00:53:49
Okay. Very Joel Osteen of them. So Henderson decides that he going to leave that church and start his own church that is more full in its condemnation of slavery So at some point in the 1840s he opens the doors to his new place called Anti Friends
00:54:07
That's what he names his church. Straightforward. Just like put the banner right over the front door, people will come.
00:54:12
And they did. So now he has a successful business, he has a happy family, and he has the glowing respect
00:54:18
of his community. But he wants more, as they always do. Guys. Literally. Guys. Guys, stop it.
00:54:26
They can't help it, especially if they read pamphlets, which was the vlogging of the pioneer days.
00:54:32
So Henderson reads some pamphlets about the Lewis and Clark expedition that went from 1804 to 1806.
00:54:38
I say as if I knew that. And he finds it all very romantic, the adventure and the discovery.
00:54:45
More importantly, he learns that despite the fact that the Pacific Northwest has very fertile land,
00:54:50
It doesn't have a variety of high-quality fruit trees growing there. So instead of settling into the life that he's built in Iowa, he starts thinking about starting it all over again in the Pacific Northwest.
00:55:03
No one can understand why he would want to give up everything and start over in an unfamiliar place for a third time.
00:55:10
But to me, there's his trauma right there. He now needs to keep on doing it. Yeah.
00:55:14
That's how he's in control. Sure. But Henderson will tell a friend, quote, It makes no difference how much a man has around him.
00:55:21
If he is not satisfied, he will go off and leave it. So in April of 1847, 39-year-old Henderson and his wife and their eight children,
00:55:30
along with several other pioneering Iowans, set out in a wagon train for the 2,000-mile journey to Oregon.
00:55:37
That's too many. Someone's pregnant and just having the worst time of her life. Keep going.
00:55:46
And it's hot or it's cold or it's middle. You've always got to bonnet on. Always got to.
00:55:53
So the Llewellyn party consists of four wagons total, but Henderson has filled one of those wagons with 700 saplings and grafted trees so he can start his new nursery in Oregon.
00:56:06
Author Heather Arndt Anderson writes, quote, it was an insane plan with little chance of success.
00:56:11
Everyone mocked him for it. He did it anyway. Those mockers. So the Blue Oiling family makes the brutal westward journey across the Missouri River over the Rocky Mountains.
00:56:21
So they've got their pioneer wagon. Some of these trees are stretching out of the pioneer wagon like four feet.
00:56:28
It's so clunky and so bad for that kind of travel. It requires constant upkeep. It's also filled with soil.
00:56:36
Like the trees are planted in back of the wagon. So it's incredibly heavy. There's genuine concern that Henderson's oxen are going to give out under this wagon's weight.
00:56:46
Members of the wagon train repeatedly suggest that he ditch his nursery wagon. No, no.
00:56:51
It's the whole point. It's the whole point. But also they're just like, come on.
00:56:55
Oh, come on. There's trees everywhere, which you have to admit it'd be like bringing a big wagon of dirt.
00:57:00
Just being like, we have to bring this good dirt. This is the dirt. This is the Iowa dirt.
00:57:04
Henderson is committed and seven months, very long months after leaving Iowa in November of 1847, the Llewellings finally arrive in Oregon's Willamette Valley.
00:57:16
Against all odds, the trees and saplings make it too. I've been there. It's so gorgeous.
00:57:21
So beautiful. Yeah, that's where all the good stuff is. Yeah. So they settle just south of Portland.
00:57:26
Henderson immediately gets to work clearing his property of the large fir trees that are on it so that he can lay out his nursery, which will end up being another huge success.
00:57:35
And it will be the first grafted tree nursery on the Pacific coast. It seems like I'm really into being an arborist or something.
00:57:43
And it's just part of this story. Okay. Because I'm going to pretend like I am just super into trees.
00:57:49
Just pretend like that's always been my personality all the way up until this point.
00:57:53
Definitely. You're a tree influencer. Yeah. Everyone knows that. That's when you find out that I've been dating a guy that's really into trees.
00:57:59
And then suddenly I am, too. That's so hot. Just a big tree guy. A lumberjack. Just some sort of, I don't know, landscaper of some kind.
00:58:08
Sure. But point of all of this is this man had a career. He also had a very strong spiritual life.
00:58:15
He was living in his very settled ways in many ways. But then in 1851, his 35-year-old wife, Elizabeth, the mother of his now 10 children, dies of complications during her 11th pregnancy.
00:58:29
So some speculate that this loss changes him with one Llewellyn family historian writing, quote,
00:58:36
his life sort of fell apart and he was adrift without an anchor, seeking for something to fill that void and never finding it, end quote.
00:58:43
So Henderson Llewellyn is grieving, but he is also in the most prosperous area of his life, producing and selling sought after trees that help build up Portland's settler economy.
00:58:54
But of course, he wants more. And that's when he learns that down in California's mining towns, there's such a huge demand for reliable, high quality fruit trees that people will pay one 1850s dollar for an apple tree seedling.
00:59:08
But essentially, today's seedlings in today's 2026 money cost $10. Oh, wow. So that's how, you know, it's just basically the seller's market in the California mining towns.
00:59:20
So Henderson is now in his mid-40s. He sells his Oregon business to a family member, and he heads south in 1854.
00:59:27
He winds up in the Bay Area and establishes a major nursery that he names Fruitvale in property that has since been absorbed into the city of Oakland.
00:59:37
You know, Fruitvale Station, which is the infamous train station where the shooting took place.
00:59:42
So Fruitvale was a big part of the city of Oakland's kind of establishment. And Henderson is in the center of it cultivating hundreds of thousands of fruit trees apricots grapes apples cherries all to be planted throughout California One write notes quote again Henderson was in no small measure responsible for the beginning of the great fruit industry of another Pacific Coast state an industry which
01:00:06
has brought more wealth to California than all the gold the state has produced. I grew up in Orange
01:00:11
County and I was aware of it as a young child. I mean, everywhere. And it's kind of funny because
01:00:17
then when you fly up to the Pacific Northwest, like one of the first things you hear about are
01:00:21
like the marion berries or the, you know, like all of that and farmland that's in the Willamette
01:00:28
Valley. Totally. So once he gets to California, though, Henderson kind of starts going through
01:00:33
a reinvention. He's perfectly middle-aged. He's a widower. He's been working his ass off all his
01:00:38
life. And he's been a Quaker, but now he's crossing paths with radical thinkers, including people who
01:00:46
are in his own Quaker community, but that are now experimenting with new belief systems
01:00:52
like the utopian movement, which was the idea that a perfect society could exist, or the
01:00:57
free love movement, which posits that marriage is oppressive and sexist and that sexual norms
01:01:03
should be looser, or the alternative health movements like vegetarianism, where people
01:01:09
followed it for both health reasons and moral reasons, or they moralized it. And of course, it's the 1850s, so you got to have spiritualism.
01:01:19
I was wondering, yeah. Yeah, it's right in there, the belief that the living can contact the dead.
01:01:24
So there's a ton of overlap in all these ideas. They're all zeitgeisty, particularly in the Bay Area, which even then had a reputation for being open-minded.
01:01:34
So it's easy to see why Llewellyn finds all of this to be appealing. As a fierce abolitionist, the idea of liberating people from unjust institutions is important to him.
01:01:43
And then the idea of personal liberation is a central tenant in the free love movement.
01:01:48
He's also kind of a single guy out there like, hey, what about what if this was cool?
01:01:54
To the average pioneer, vegetarianism might seem weird, but it's a long held Quaker tradition.
01:01:59
So it's not weird to him. And of course, Henderson would embrace spiritualism while coping with the death of his wife.
01:02:06
and that is kind of the gateway to the broader idea of utopia where society and the self are
01:02:14
things that can be harmonized brought into harmony but at that point this is where things go very
01:02:20
far away from the johnny appleseed kind of folk hero stuff and into stranger terrain because now
01:02:26
it's the late 1850s henderson's in his late 40s he either starts this group or he links up with
01:02:32
this San Francisco-based group called the Harmonial Brotherhood. And there are sources that say he started it, but it isn't totally clear.
01:02:41
But basically, there's no intricate day-in, day-out details of the Harmonial Brotherhood.
01:02:46
But what we do know is it's made up of about 20 people, men, women, and children.
01:02:51
And many of them come from Quaker backgrounds. And now they subscribe to a blend of spiritualist, utopian, and free love beliefs, just like him.
01:03:00
Fun. Right? and plums. So in the pursuit of personal, quote, harmony, they follow strict vegetarian diet,
01:03:08
they swear off caffeine, and they favor spiritualism-adjacent treatments of the day
01:03:13
like hydropathy, which is basically baths, wraps, cold plunges. Honestly, it sounds way better than some of the movements
01:03:22
and religious fucking evangelicals from back then. Hell yes. It sounds like goop.
01:03:28
I mean, am I wrong? They're definitely right about a lot of it and kind of right-headed about a lot of it.
01:03:36
But what usually happens? You know, Jim Jones comes along and ruins it all. There's always someone with transition lenses that's going to fucking ruin your utopia.
01:03:45
So the Brotherhood's hydropathy practitioner is a man who is either a spiritualist preacher or a blacksmith, depending on who you're reading.
01:03:55
You can do both. And he also was once a circus performer, so he can do it all. Definitely. The one thing he's not trained as is a formal medical physician. And yet he is referred to as Dr. Tyler or Dr. T. And he's the one that the water treatments are all coming from Dr. T.
01:04:12
OK. So there's an idea that Dr. T kind of started this group because he's got all the treatments and the things that he's as they're spiritual together. He's the one that's like, but I can actually lay some hands on and make some changes.
01:04:24
So the Brotherhood shares a dream of men and women living as equals in a state of excellent physical and spiritual health in a free love utopia, entering and exiting relationships at will.
01:04:36
Or as Heather Arndt Anderson, the writer, puts it, quote, an individual's rights to bang anyone they fancied.
01:04:43
She wrote that? Yeah. Because essentially that's what they're doing. Yeah. Doesn't sound like the worst life I've ever heard on this podcast.
01:04:50
No, and also at this time, there were other U.S.-based religious groups doing exactly the same thing.
01:04:56
It's possible that they heard about the Oneida community in upstate New York, which was established in the 1840s and remained as a utopian free-love Christian sect for decades, famously manufacturing the kitchenware you might have in your home right now.
01:05:11
That's fucking right. You covered that, right? No, actually, I didn't because Maren then writes, note to Karen, Oneida could be fun to someday cover.
01:05:18
Oh, my God. Doing it dibs. Okay. But as progressive as a place like San Francisco can be, it's not remote or rural upstate New York.
01:05:27
And so the Brotherhood's values are far too radical for the average Joe down on Market Street.
01:05:33
They realize that to live out their utopian vision, they're going to have to go somewhere more isolated, no prying eyes, where they can build their new society and peace.
01:05:41
It's weird. It is like a footprint, like a blueprint for Jim Jones. It follows the trajectory of a cult.
01:05:47
Yeah. And so this is where Henderson steps up and steps in. He's the richest member of this brotherhood.
01:05:54
And of course he willing to sink all of his fruit tree money into this cause If you think about all the risks he taken he completed multiple cross trips and reinvented himself like three times
01:06:07
And it's always worked. Why would he not think he could do this? So he sells the bulk of his California business
01:06:12
and pours his money into a big schooner. He buys the boat himself, and then he buys a 50,000-acre sparsely populated
01:06:22
volcanic island off of Honduras. called Tiger Island. This is so people's temple.
01:06:30
Yeah, exactly. A lot of people are caught off guard by Henderson's deep entanglement
01:06:35
with the Harmonial Brotherhood, none more than his new wife, Mary, who's been kept out of the loop
01:06:42
on this whole Honduras utopia plan from the beginning. She is not invited. Oh. So she's not in it and she's not invited.
01:06:51
Yeah, really. So when she learns that her husband is about to abandon her, knowing that she will be left destitute, she tries to have him committed.
01:07:00
And that actually is phrased very like it's one to the other. But there's also the chance she has been living with this man who's increasingly wearing transition lenses inside the house.
01:07:10
And so she knows maybe something needs to be done. Right. It might not just be because it might be legit.
01:07:16
Yeah, exactly. She might not just be covering your ass, but we'll never know. And the thing is, the courts agree with her and the police are dispatched to go find him.
01:07:25
But Henderson is two steps ahead of everybody. He's gone into hiding until October 8th, 1859, when the Harmonial Brotherhood schooner sets sail out of San Francisco with nine male members, five female ones and six or seven children on board.
01:07:41
Goodbye. Bye, guys. But Henderson's not on board. He's actually watching the schooner from shore.
01:07:47
And once it sails into the bay and then passes the place that the Golden Gate Bridge once will be, he waits to see if any boats come up and try to arrest anybody on it.
01:07:57
Once he sees that that doesn't happen, he gets onto a smaller boat and under the cover of midnight and moonlight boards the schooner undetected out in the open ocean.
01:08:09
Smart move. Pretty cool. Or incredibly paranoid. So now they're sailing for Honduras.
01:08:15
The boat's crewed by hired sailors, not members of the Harmonial Brotherhood. And those sailors quickly realized this is going to be a weird ride.
01:08:23
And they will later give statements. They're the reasons that we know what was happening on this trip.
01:08:29
And so their statements to reporters shape what we know, essentially. For example, living conditions on board are physically miserable,
01:08:36
with passengers eventually being, quote, more or less covered with vermin. Maybe they didn't know how to stock the ship or pack vegetables.
01:08:45
They had so many vegetables. Yeah. Also, tensions over food escalate very quickly.
01:08:50
Because they're vegetarian, it's a tough reality at sea. Yeah. Their onboard diet consists mostly of, quote, coarse flour, apparently ground up with chaff, straw and all, and very much resembling cattle feed.
01:09:04
Chaff is that outer husk that you sometimes get stuck in your teeth if you eat oatmeal.
01:09:08
Oh, oatmeal. Oh, yeah. Like the oaty part. Sure. Basically, they are starving on this ship.
01:09:14
So then when they stop at ports along the way, some members get caught, quote, dietary cheating.
01:09:20
Oh, shit. Give me that bacon. Exactly. Buying salted pork and game meat. Because that's exactly what I'd go for immediately.
01:09:27
You get a big hunk of beef jerky. You chew on it for days. Meals and nights. You're just chewing on it.
01:09:33
The people who do this are caught red-handed. And then heated arguments break out among the brethren.
01:09:37
Because not only are you hoarding food, but it's against your beliefs. Yeah. And it's not hot.
01:09:43
So the biggest rift on the ship about food is known as the egg war. And it starts in Oaxaca, Mexico, when a merchant swindles both Dr. T and Henderson.
01:09:54
His con involves eight chicken eggs. Basically, Henderson sees him with the eggs.
01:09:59
He runs up and says, I'll take all of them. The seller sells him the eight eggs and takes his money.
01:10:05
And then Henderson runs away to go get a container to put the eggs in. And while he's away, Dr. T walks up and says, I want all eight of those eggs.
01:10:12
And the guy's like, sounds good. Bad communication. No communication. No communication.
01:10:16
He sells them a second time and then disappears. When Henderson comes back with his handful of straw or whatever it is that he found to carry the eggs in, he sees Dr. T holding them.
01:10:28
And they start fighting over which one of them actually owns these eggs. We've all been there.
01:10:33
Sure. The Great Egg War. But with these guys, they can't just work it out. They can't go like, ah, we both were swindled.
01:10:41
This is what it's like, you know, out on the open seas. Instead, they resent each other for days, culminating in an all-hands meeting on the ship.
01:10:51
Oh, they're little bitches, both of them. Yeah. And it's like everybody's fighting and it's ruining the cruise for the rest of us.
01:10:57
It's ruining the vibe. The vibes are off. The vibes are so off. So they have a staff meeting, an all-hands meeting on the Lido deck.
01:11:04
And Henderson tells the group God wants him to have the eggs. Oh. Settled. Who knew?
01:11:09
Did they ever say that on Real Housewives? God wants me to have the eggs. So this fight is over.
01:11:15
But apparently this works. Henderson winds up with the eggs. And the only reason we believe it is because at this same meeting, Dr. T vows to get revenge.
01:11:27
Over eggs. Over eggs. They haven't even landed on the island yet. And things are that bad.
01:11:31
So clearly the two vegetarian free love alpha males are vying for control over the schooner
01:11:38
and the spirit of the group itself. As they do. As they seem to always want to do.
01:11:43
Dr. T is a blacksmith. Henderson is a rich pioneer. Who will win? Lay your bets.
01:11:50
Good luck, players. It takes them several months to finally arrive at Tiger Island, so several more months
01:11:55
of that life and that strife. I have So when the schooner's crew is finally cut loose, they run to the reporters, describing the journey as a free love hell.
01:12:09
No such thing. You'd think those words wouldn't go together. But hey. And on a boat.
01:12:14
And these are sailors. It's the first swingers cruise. And the sailors are just like the waitstaff that's forced to stand by in the rented community.
01:12:26
And they know all the gossip because they're just in the background of everything.
01:12:29
Yeah. Oh, my God. Just not into it. They keep walking into the supply galley. Everyone's fucking back there.
01:12:37
Sorry, don't let your kids listen to this episode. And they also document the hypocrisy among the supposedly sexually liberated group members, mentioning a specific incident at another port in Mexico where a male member of the Brotherhood happens to end up at the same stream where the female members are skinny dipping or bathing.
01:12:56
I mean, they have been on a boat for months and months. Dr. T shows up and becomes so irate that this other man has just seen his wife naked that he, quote, threatened to break every bone in his body, unquote.
01:13:10
So chill. So the blacksmith turned water doctor seems like maybe not always okay.
01:13:16
Or he's like me where when his blood sugar gets low, he threatens to kill everybody.
01:13:20
Which is the whole time because they're starving. They can't have any sugar. Yeah.
01:13:25
Okay. So now California papers are running sneering articles on this harmonious brotherhood utopian journey. They're clocking all of it. Meanwhile, on Tiger Island, the gang is in rough shape. They're exhausted and they're depleted. They just arrived. Now they have to build the infrastructure needed to start like their little society.
01:13:45
but immediately and very sadly something like malaria or yellow fever sweeps through the camp
01:13:52
and the terrible reality sets in for the group that Dr. T's hydropathy treatments are no match for real disease.
01:13:59
One of the articles covering this will document the death of a Brotherhood member identified only as Mrs. C
01:14:06
which is so sad if you think of Richie Cunningham's mother dying this way. And they write, quote,
01:14:12
They took Mrs. C while raging with the fever, wrapped her in a wet blanket till she perspired profusely, and then threw cold water over her.
01:14:21
The speedy result was her death. End quote. What a fuck, shitty way to go. Horrible.
01:14:27
After months eating the worst oatmeal of all time. Dude, what was it all for? For real, just to die far away from home.
01:14:35
Two members of the Harmonial Brotherhood die shortly after arriving at Tiger Island, Mrs. C and another.
01:14:41
As many as eight get sick, including Henderson himself, but they recover. But there only 20 people on this ship so morale is extraordinarily low And to make matters worse the egg rift between Henderson and Dr T has not ended Guys let it go They can Eggs eggs precious eggs
01:15:02
Dr. T actually breaks away from the main group with a few loyalists on his side and starts a rival utopian society.
01:15:11
Me and my two friends are out of here. We're on the other side of the island with our eggs.
01:15:14
Literally, they move to another side of the island. They don't get any eggs, though.
01:15:18
soon after Dr. T gets sick and dies himself. Oh. So you can't, there's no room to just be busting off and being mad about eggs.
01:15:27
No. The point is not the eggs. God has other plans for you when you're chafing about eggs.
01:15:33
Amen. Okay. So from here, the information is spotty because, as I told you, no one's keeping diaries.
01:15:40
There are no scrapbooks from Tiger Island. No one's like, I want to write down stuff while I'm actually dying.
01:15:46
Yes. I got weird and high over eating too many vegetables and having sex whenever I wanted, which seemed impossible.
01:15:54
And now I'm in Honduras and I don't know what's going on. Maybe my wife was right to put me in a mental institution.
01:16:01
Yeah. Oops. Maybe my water treatments don't actually work. This is a musical. Okay.
01:16:08
It only took eight months for the Harmonial Brotherhood's free love experiment on Tiger Island to implode.
01:16:14
That's a long freaking time. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. What we know for sure is that in July of 1860, Henderson Llewellyn commissions a crew to sail his schooner back to California.
01:16:26
After this, when the group gets back, they disband for good. They seem to. The entire saga is extremely humiliating for all parties involved because they went out, you know, of course, guns a-blazing of like, we're out of here.
01:16:40
We are going to— We figured it out. That's right. Things are going to be so much better at our new life.
01:16:45
And this is always what I bring up in my argument against vegetarianism. Bring the bacon.
01:16:51
Bring the bacon. It's the old saying, bring the bacon and you won't fight so much about the eggs.
01:16:55
Yeah, because what's the difference between the fucking eggs and the bacon, really?
01:17:00
It's the focus. It's the lens through which. It's so humiliating that Henderson Llewellyn lives the rest of his life under a pseudonym.
01:17:08
Oh. Members of his family, meanwhile, carry on his horticultural mantle and continue producing popular crops on the Pacific coast.
01:17:17
His brother Seth is particularly successful, becoming famous for cultivating the Bing Cherry in the 1870s.
01:17:25
Hey. Yeah. Love that guy. Seth actually changes the spelling of his last name to Llewellyn, L-E-W-E-L-L-I-N-G.
01:17:31
Just to get away from the, like, damn. Yeah. So in 1878 while clearing land with a control burn for a new nursery in San Jose California Henderson Llewellyn dies of a heart attack at the age of 69 So he was starting it all over yet again in San Jose This is a hard part to hear He reportedly found quote partially roasted with his clothes beard and the land around him
01:17:58
still smoldering. So he got caught on fire and had a heart attack and died. He was control burning,
01:18:03
had a heart attack, dropped to the ground. Oh, and was still alive. Here comes the control burn.
01:18:10
Couldn't get away from the burn. Hopefully he died, but let's say he died before the control burn.
01:18:14
Oh, God. Oh, yoy. In 1929, while musing on a sprout from one of Henderson's Oregon cherry trees, a writer named O.A. Garretson notes, quote,
01:18:24
that this little cherry sprout originating at Salem, Iowa, should withstand the risks of transportation across the continent and the hazards of frequent transplanting and still live.
01:18:34
A towering monument to commemorate the energy and enterprise of a Salem pioneer is to the writer a fact stranger than fiction.
01:18:42
And that's the story of the so-called father of the Pacific fruit industry and dirty bird, Henderson Llewellyn.
01:18:51
Oh, I didn't show you any fucking pictures. Because it was so—you had the images and the words.
01:18:57
I didn't need it. I have it all in my mind. I want to see some of them. Here's the book we were talking about.
01:19:03
I don't think I read that as a kid. It seems so innocent. Right. Well, just get ready.
01:19:09
Okay. There he is. Oh, there he is. There's the neckbeard. Another. We've got the full neckbeard.
01:19:15
This is crazy. This is the season of neckbeards on My Favorite Murder. I guess this was like the Benson Boone mustache is today.
01:19:23
This neckbeard was in 1850. Because he'd look fine without it. What are you doing?
01:19:27
She's like, you put some sheep's wool. It's kind of quakery. It's quakery. I mean, this seems to be the trend of the time.
01:19:34
Okay, what else we got? Is that the schooner? No. I was picturing like a yacht. That's Tiger Island.
01:19:40
Great. Oh, that's the schooner. Oh, there's the schooner. Okay, that's more what I thought.
01:19:45
Still, it's not big, and you can only have really crunchy oatmeal. Oh, God. Rough.
01:19:51
Okay. So not even big enough for people to— If the sailors from this boat are complaining about a free love situation that weirded them out—
01:19:59
It's everywhere. They were witnessing it front, back, and center. Whoops. Okay, anything else?
01:20:04
All holes filled. Shit. Oh, that's Willamette Valley. Willamette Valley. I know the Willamette Valley when I'm looking at it.
01:20:13
All right. Well, that was great. Wow. Yeah. Those are all these experiences you can have in life.
01:20:18
Yeah. It could go so many different ways. That's all we want people to remember on this show.
01:20:23
Please stop forgetting the variety of life. And enjoy yours because... Life is like a Bing cherry.
01:20:30
Yeah. It's expensive. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
01:20:40
This has been an Exactly Right production Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes
01:20:52
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachi. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin.
01:20:59
Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com. And follow the show on Instagram at myfavoritemurder.
01:21:04
Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:21:09
And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons.
01:21:15
That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
01:21:26
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
01:21:35
The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.
01:21:42
I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:21:53
I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world.
01:22:02
Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on.
01:22:09
Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world.
01:22:14
I'm talking to people like Julie Kay Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018.
01:22:20
The Justice Department, through we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims.
01:22:27
Listen to Bleep with Ana Navarro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:22:34
When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands.
01:22:42
I vowed I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves.
01:22:49
We always say that. Trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.
01:22:56
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I got you, I got you.
01:23:06
10-10 shots, 5, City Hall building. How could this ever happen in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.
01:23:12
A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics.
01:23:20
I screamed, get down, get down, those are shots. a tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery
01:23:27
that may or may not have been political that may have been about sex listen to Rorschach Murder at City Hall
01:23:33
on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts