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For full offer details, visit BoostMobile.com. My favorite world. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
00:02:01
This is a show where we discuss our old episodes with case updates and new insights now 100 times over.
00:02:09
This is Rewind 4 episode 100 of the podcast so you don't have to scroll all the way down.
00:02:16
No, never again. Never again. Now you can just listen to this. Start here. Today we're rewinding, as I just said, to episode 100.
00:02:23
And we named this episode. What? The 100th episode. Incredible work. This episode originally came out on December 21st, 2017.
00:02:32
Oh my God. Back when? Back when? All right. Let's listen to the intro of episode 100.
00:02:49
Hi, welcome to My Favorite Murder. Bye. Wow. That's really loud, Stephen. That was satisfying.
00:03:04
Please edit that. Hey, it's the 100th episode. Of My Favorite Murder. The podcast.
00:03:11
Remember the podcast you've listened to 99.08 times? Jesus. Holy crap. I'm pouring myself and Steven a glass of this beautiful rosé champagne that today I was Vince
00:03:27
and I were walking by this wine store and I was like, Oh, let me go and get a bottle for the
00:03:31
hundredth episode. And I'm looking through this thing and this cute girl with blue hair is like,
00:03:35
I love the podcast. I'm like, Oh my God, thank you. And then the chick behind the counter who
00:03:40
owns the place is like, I love it too. And they both started like talking to me about it.
00:03:45
And it was really sweet. And so I just wanted to say thank you to Inovino, to Suzanne at Inovino and Jen's Spain photography.
00:03:56
Well, exciting. I have a cup of tea. I have a cup of tea and we have a cake from Carvel.
00:04:03
That's right. Steven went and picked it up at the one Los Angeles location that's been there for a long time.
00:04:10
Yeah, they've been there for a while and they were very sweet. Yeah, they've been after us to give it to us.
00:04:15
Yeah. amazing so fucking cool i mean i don't even remember having the conversation about talking
00:04:20
about how we were going to have this cake on this day i don't remember talking about 99 episodes
00:04:25
worth of things so true here we are and yet we're just going to keep on talking yeah bloody blah
00:04:32
let's first we have presents from steven yeah um let's just describe these because we walked
00:04:40
upstairs into the beautiful podcast loft and on the podcast coffee table. There are two, what I
00:04:45
refer to as hat boxes. Gorgeous, red, like gilded hat boxes. Spoilers. Just kidding.
00:04:53
Okay. Other hats. Another hat. Oh my god, this is beautiful. It is. Ooh. What are these? Are these head mics?
00:05:03
Are these microphones? They're like, are these like Janet Jackson mics? Yeah. Stephen!
00:05:11
Oh my god! Stephen got us head mics. This is what having 100 podcasts is like. Holy shit, Stephen.
00:05:22
We're going to record like gamers do when they record themselves for YouTube. It's totally true.
00:05:31
When you can do all your dance moves and everything. Oh, Stephen. You can move your body the way you've always wanted to, Karen, when we're recording.
00:05:39
I've wanted one of these my whole life shut up I've just never had a reason for it I love it
00:05:45
Stephen Stephen thank you we didn't get you we're going to no I'm so glad you like that I mean just
00:05:53
like they just so fun they beautiful just watching Janet Jackson just like yeah do it we gonna be on the next level can we plug them in now uh that might take a while can we just put them on though yeah you can just
00:06:06
wear them okay cool um they kind of look like um like retain what are the retainers that people
00:06:11
head here they look like headgear if you need a visual and it's totally like what someone would
00:06:15
wear like in top gun or something like that in a and they have like um they've got like foam
00:06:21
it's just really intense. I feel like I get very, it's not that often that someone gives me the perfect gift
00:06:30
because I don't talk about what I like that much. I only talk about and focus on what I hate.
00:06:38
And this is just such a fucking hilarious, this is such a perfect gift. It's such a lovely,
00:06:45
it's so perfect for us. Such a lovely gesture. For us, for this occasion. everything about it.
00:06:51
I've never been happier in my life. Oh my gosh. Well, it's just, yeah. You're blushing.
00:06:56
A special day. Thank you. You know what it is? He's forced to listen to us. So he has to pay attention to what we say.
00:07:04
He doesn't want the mic to keep bumping against my teeth anymore like it always does.
00:07:08
The foam on teeth is real gross to begin with. How is the background noise of just gift wrap paper constantly being touched?
00:07:16
I mean, that's the new ASMR thing, so. Oh yeah. Karen, I think that you're just going to start wearing this always.
00:07:21
I think you're exactly right. To sleep and when you're in the car and you're on the phone.
00:07:27
I have to say I have a lot of the same feelings that I had when I was, I think I've told you this story, when I was like four or five
00:07:34
and my aunt Jean gave my sister a pair of red cowboy boots for her birthday and the second I saw her open the box, I screamed, grabbed them,
00:07:42
put them on and would not take them off. And I wore them for like three years. and this I have very much the same feeling with this. Can I say so you and I
00:07:50
said like we'll get each other presents for the 100th episode so that looks great on you. Does it? Oh my god you look like you look like you work at a call center.
00:07:59
Thank you. You look like Anne Rule in the 70s with Ted Bundy. You look like you work next to Ted Bundy.
00:08:05
I'm trying to help people but I'm also making friends with one of the most legendary serial killers of all time.
00:08:11
Yes. Yeah. So I was like, well, what do I get? Karen and I have been stressing about it for like a week.
00:08:16
Spoiler alert. I got you nothing, which is totally my style. I stress and stress.
00:08:21
Don't do anything about it. You froze. So I had, but I had good ideas. And actually, initially, those red cowboy boots you talked about, I was going to get
00:08:28
a cake made that were red cowboy boots. Oh, my God. No, I didn't do it, though. No, but that doesn't matter.
00:08:34
That's an amazing idea. I have a couple. I had a couple, so I want points for them, even though I didn't do it.
00:08:38
You get 50 points for red cowboy boot cake. Amazing. I have a great imagination.
00:08:41
and crippling anxiety that doesn't let me do anything about it. It's that follow through, but I am an honest believer and it's the thought that counts.
00:08:49
I am too. I really am. I am too. Okay, great. So that was going to be one. Then I was thinking I'd either go get a tattoo or have a tattoo artist come here for us and
00:08:58
give us SSDGM tattoos while we were recording. But I couldn't remember if you wanted one or not.
00:09:04
Okay. Well, then I would have gotten one. I mean, I love the idea of it. Yeah. But it's just not me.
00:09:10
I have a tattoo that I shouldn't have gotten in the first place and in getting it realized.
00:09:15
I'm not a tattoo person. I get that. So that was another idea. And then, oh, and then I was just going to wrap.
00:09:23
I was going to gift wrap really well, a beautiful like Christmassy gift wrapping, gorgeous, just a pan of cheesy potatoes.
00:09:31
Like my lady from Unhealthy Obsessions or whatever that TLC show is. Oh, yeah. Because you love cheesy potatoes.
00:09:38
And we eat them backstage a lot. Yeah. So I was going to do that. Some version of potato and cheese or pasta and cheese.
00:09:44
Maybe mac and cheese. I make a good mac and cheese. Maybe that. Green things make us cry.
00:09:48
Someday. Cheesy potatoes. Yeah. Save our life. Well, here's, thank you for all those thoughts and for stressing about it.
00:09:55
That's even more of a gift of like true anxiety over it. Means a lot. I came up with the idea.
00:10:03
And when you said, oh, really? Like, and then I was like, yes. And then immediately forgot and haven't thought about it since I walked in the door and you were like, I didn't get you anything.
00:10:12
And I was like, OK, you're like, oh, why would you don't ever get me anything? And I'm like, but we both said, but I immediately I was like, oh, thank God she forgot to or she like didn't do it either.
00:10:22
It's just so classic me. That would be like my bossy idea. Yeah. And then I'm just like, I don't know what you're talking about anyway.
00:10:28
Well, because I didn't follow through. Right. Yes. You have no memory of it and I have no follow through.
00:10:32
And together, that's 100 episodes, man. Dude, we are, we, it was a match made in heaven for real.
00:10:38
It really was. Because it's like, it's a friend of mine the other day. I forgot we had made dinner plans.
00:10:44
And then she texted me. I was like, now, like I had to move one night on her. Then she texted me.
00:10:49
She was like, now I have to move a night. And I was like, yay. Like, it's never bad news to me when you flake, cancel.
00:10:56
Oh God, I love it. Or I just never hear from you again. It's always a relief to me.
00:11:01
If you see me out at night, I really like you. You know what I mean? Yes. Or you already think I'm a flake and I can't. I've used up all my flakiness on you.
00:11:10
Yes. You're scared. Yeah. There are a couple of friends that are like, oh, you're actually here. But then they're always like, but you always make me come to
00:11:17
your side of town. When I'm like, where should we go? I'm like, down the street.
00:11:20
It's so great over here. Well, but here's the thing. And this is how it is sometimes. You've
00:11:24
got to cop. If you live in an area where it's just not that cool. Yeah. Like you can go out.
00:11:29
This is the thing you have to like master plan. You have to think of everybody in the plan because
00:11:33
there are people who are like, oh, I'm married and I have a kid. So if we go to dinner, I don't give a shit where we go
00:11:37
because it's all the same to me. But if you're like a single lady trying to maximize your time
00:11:43
because you finally left the house after two weeks, you don't want to go to fucking the grandma restaurant
00:11:49
at 6 p.m. But you also don't want to go to like when your friends like when you're single and your friends like just come over
00:11:53
and we make I make dinner No I want the possibility of seeing a hot guy at a bar Don waste my time in front of your TV No I 100 get that Yes Yeah It like if I if I going to make the monstrous effort
00:12:06
Oh, yeah. Of putting clothes on this body and rolling on outside. We've got to actually do something that's like worth the while.
00:12:14
Plus, there's no way you're fucking whatever salad you throw together is going to be good
00:12:16
as like a cheese plate from the fucking nice restaurant. Yeah. And let's spend some money.
00:12:21
Come on. Come on. Let's do it. Who cares? It's Christmas time. And did you hear about the asteroid that came within three miles of the earth?
00:12:28
No, I love that, though. I mean, guys, we're on a clock. Let's maximize this fun.
00:12:34
Please. This Christmas season. I went to my Hanukkah party last weekend, over the weekend, which was super fun.
00:12:42
And all my young, sweet cousins listened to the podcast. No, how young? Well, they're like in there.
00:12:48
They're like just out of college. So they're all cool. Savannah, Jillian. Hi, ladies.
00:12:53
Hi. They're just like sweet little angels and then and I love them. It's very cool.
00:13:00
Yeah, I am. I have family, too, who are like, it's people that you don't expect.
00:13:05
I was the young, like 20 year olds that I know that that like Lauren and Connor and Johnny
00:13:10
know are my family. You know, I'm always like they don't care about anything from my era.
00:13:17
Like, why would they? Right. They're boring old people. The life, the way we live is so different that it's like, we might as well be from different
00:13:25
sides of the planet. So good. God bless. Go do your thing. So when they come in, they're like, oh my God, all my friends like you.
00:13:32
It's like, what? It honestly feels like a ghost has walked through the wall and been like, oh my God,
00:13:37
we like you on our side. It's like validating you suddenly. It's like, oh my God, I'm not.
00:13:42
It's validating you from people that you're like, I have to dismiss your group because
00:13:47
it's sad when old people want young people to think they're cool. But podcasts, there's something about them.
00:13:54
It's all old people. It's mind control. It's mind control. How's my headset look?
00:13:59
It looks still glorious. You look like Judith from HR. And then every time you say something, you have to touch the earpiece lightly.
00:14:07
That's right. Because I'm also, I have to be honest, I'm a little bit playing News Copter 4 pilot.
00:14:14
Like I'm a traffic reporter right now. Karen? We have Karen Kay in the sky. Guys, I'm looking right down at the I-5 and everything's on fire.
00:14:23
Oh, on my way here. That's the only thing you can say. That's like the only time that rain Karen Kay out is when there's a fire.
00:14:30
In the Southland? It's always on fire. Hey, it's 2018 and we're on fire. Sorry, I did a terrible radio voice.
00:14:38
But on the exit to come here, there was a slowdown, of course. I went five miles an hour the whole time.
00:14:45
this it's so fascinating to talk about la traffic everyone loves it but um when i took the exit
00:14:50
there was like a huge tow truck and then when we all had to drive by it real slow it was a
00:14:57
maserati that had rear-ended like a kia and it was i laughed so hard because a maserati is why
00:15:04
do you drive that car no you're just flossing you're just trying to make people think you're
00:15:09
important oh god and then one listener who drives a maserati right now is like i fucking knew it
00:15:15
My brother told me it was cool. I fucking knew it. I fucking knew it. You know, and I'm taking this fork.
00:15:21
We brought forks up here. I'm digging into this Carvel cake. Eating food on a podcast into a microphone is now ASMR, right?
00:15:29
It's ASMR, ASAP. Oh, my God. It's not so good. Fuck. Okay, let's fucking Cooking Channel Unique Sweets this for a minute.
00:15:39
Do it. Can I say? Yeah. All right. Steven, are you going to eat any of this? Steven, there's a fork.
00:15:44
fudgy the whale cake were i said grab the cake and four and three forks and you got so excited that i
00:15:50
didn't say plates yeah because there's no chance we're cutting this and putting it in play it's
00:15:54
kind of monsters you think we are yeah this isn't tea time with karen and georgia or whatever
00:15:59
um it it's an ice cream cake but there's like a layer of marshmallow fluff in it it's crunchy from
00:16:06
the like it's like cookie pieces that's what it's like famous for right right and it's got the like
00:16:11
fudgy um frosting and just a little bit of cake it's not a ton of cake it's there's barely any
00:16:17
cake that there's also a strip of caramel oh my god underneath this fudge frosting
00:16:22
it's like my mouth is watering and i'm eating it at the same time that's how good it is
00:16:27
what's really fun about eating a thing wait i should talk i should talk in the microphone
00:16:33
what's really fun about eating a thing like this like when you become an adult is you get
00:16:36
eat it and make as big a mess as you want yeah also here's what's really funny i think there's
00:16:44
a lot of people on the east coast that probably think this is hilarious because we're describing
00:16:47
a thing that'd be like oh my god it's like the peanut butter is right next to the jelly
00:16:53
where they're like yeah everyone's had this you don't need to describe it this is our childhood
00:16:57
thing nobody cares every single person had this for their birthday party yeah it's like you but
00:17:01
But we didn't. No. I've never had that in my life. Me either. It's the best. Fuck.
00:17:07
Let's get sugar high. Mm-hmm. And party. Mm-hmm. You know what's so funny? If we can get into it really quickly.
00:17:13
Someone tweeted today at us. Yes. And said, okay, hold on. Steven, wait, hold on a little.
00:17:19
They said, please eat a whole cake on the show. And I said, sounds great. And we did it.
00:17:24
I'd love to. They said, you know what? That's a great idea. That's my gift to you is dessert for dinner.
00:17:32
Oh, my God. It's so good. I want to cry. Stephen, don't you love it? Stephen, keep eating it.
00:17:38
So good. Keep eating it. Keep eating it while I find this tweet. And we're back.
00:17:47
Wow. 100 episodes. I'm glad we celebrated. I mean, the range of growth. That just I want to focus on that for a second is the full range of growth that we shown in this series A hundred Alone How many episodes do we have now Like 500 Over 500 Right Molly how many We just recorded 534
00:18:07
534. And 100 is nothing. It's nothing. Why are we even celebrating this? That's back before we understood anything that was going on.
00:18:14
So in the episode, Stephen gave us headphones in gift boxes like this. Oh, there they are. Oh, look.
00:18:22
That's day of. This is, listener, if you're only listening, Molly just put up a picture of the day of the 100th episode and the gifts we got.
00:18:31
There's forks everywhere in a Carvel, Fudgie the Whale cake. I also want to point out that there's forks everywhere.
00:18:38
The joke about podcasting in pajamas, I'm literally wearing pajama pants in that photo.
00:18:44
That was back when we didn't have to care about our appearance because we were merely podcasters.
00:18:50
Let's open these. Look at the little vial. What do you think's in that? Look at my tiny iPhone.
00:18:54
Look at that. I'm on Twitter as we record. There's my wine. Wow. Okay. Let's open these.
00:19:02
I'm excited. No. Yes. Do these really work? Not currently, but we can make them work.
00:19:12
But we can put them on as if they do work. Oh, these are going to look great. Yes.
00:19:17
Because they're kind of like headbands. Yeah, exactly. Hello. Do you know I wish I could wear my sunglasses on my head at all times as like an accessory?
00:19:25
As like a headband? I just think it looks good, but you can't do that at night. What about this?
00:19:28
This is great, too. Hello, True Crime Podcasting. May I help you? Hello. Paging Dr. Zayas.
00:19:37
Paging Dr. Podcast. These are great. Thank you. Now we can dance. Now we're wearing them the whole time.
00:19:42
So in that red box that showed up in that photo we just threw to, Stephen had the original Janet Jackson style headsets.
00:19:50
And that's what this is as well. A nod to that. Thank you. More headsets. You know, I still have that gift box.
00:19:56
I store belts in it. Nice. Well, what I love is this. These, Stephen gave us these headsets for our 100th original.
00:20:06
We immediately lost them. Never used them again. Or soon after. We never saw them again.
00:20:11
And then for this 100th rewind, we get to go back. Here they are. And now I finally get to live my headphone Janet Jackson life.
00:20:19
You look great. Also, double, triple, you have triple microphones right now. Triple. That's right. I have so many microphones and so much scotch tape on me.
00:20:29
You've got to microphone up. Control. You're a microphone influencer. Okay, I'm taking this off.
00:20:36
Okay. No, leave it. It looks, no, take it off. I mean, thank you so much. I love that we finally have these in our hands. We actually get to enjoy
00:20:43
these. If there's a day where we can actually podcast with them on and use them, that's where
00:20:49
I want to get to. This way we can walk and talk. Podcasts from all over the office. All over the
00:20:53
office. And we can take drive-through orders. Oh, that's true. It's going to be so good. Okay,
00:20:57
now we're back in the show we're doing. I have information for you. I have an update on Carvel.
00:21:02
So the Santa Monica Boulevard in Westwood location has closed permanently. Yeah. As of 2026,
00:21:10
there are only three remaining Carvel locations operating in California. Wow. Do you want to guess
00:21:16
where they are? Duarte. No. Hanford? Merced, randomly. That's up by Modesto. Madeira? I think
00:21:26
there's water slides there. No, that's Manteca. I'm sorry. Lemoore. I've never heard of that place.
00:21:31
Oh, that's across the freeway from Hanford. What's Hanford? Hanford is the city I just guessed,
00:21:36
because it's on the way up to five. This is local jokes get local work, the definition.
00:21:41
Why are they all in Northern California? Or Central. Central, yeah. But I mean, how did they stay in business when the LA one couldn't?
00:21:48
I thought the demand was from the hipsters who were from the East Coast that lived in LA.
00:21:52
We have all that artisan ice cream and all that, you know, it has to be Earl Grey and tobacco flavor now.
00:21:58
I don't like that. You don't like the weird flavors? I want to buy it. I'm so up for ice cream.
00:22:03
I want... Don't put gorgonzola in it. I was just going to say I want blue cheese and cherries.
00:22:09
No! That is the best ice cream I've ever had. No, we had a fucking salad if that's what you want so bad.
00:22:13
Oh, I'm sorry. That's not what we're trying to do on the 100th episode. Okay. So we both covered the same story on this episode.
00:22:19
This was a cool idea where we broke format and we're like, now for the 100th, we're going to celebrate by doing the same story together.
00:22:26
We should do that again. Sure. Less homework. I mean, we break up a story halvesies.
00:22:31
Yeah. One does one, one does the other. Okay. So let's get into it. Someone write this down.
00:22:36
We are going to get into our 100th story, the big one. Yeah. This is the story about the mysterious, suspicious death of Kathleen Peterson.
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00:25:25
All right. A guy named, his Twitter handle is Manny Patinkin? Oh my God, Manny Patinkin.
00:25:35
Manny 2189. Text us, added us to the answer where it said, so you guys talked about the staircase death a lot in the start of your podcast days,
00:25:43
but you guys never fully got into it. And I still have no idea what it is. And owl question mark.
00:25:49
Someone sent us that today. Really? Yes. That's hilarious. How weird is that? because on our first episode, and Stephen went back and listened to it,
00:26:00
wrote up some nice notes for us. It's called due diligence. That's right. And he did it.
00:26:05
He did his diligence. He did his duty. So we didn't have to do no duty. Exactly.
00:26:10
But we talk about the staircase. We both believed, I think for a while we believed we had covered it,
00:26:17
but it was just conversation, a long conversation. And then the fun reveal that you told me was that then when we decided, okay, for the 100th episode, we're going to cover the staircase together officially.
00:26:30
I just realized I'm like trying to surprise everyone by telling them that we're in the staircase.
00:26:34
But then I just realized they saw it in the description of the podcast episode when they press play, probably.
00:26:38
Yeah. So it's not a surprise. It's not. And, you know, at some point you've got to reveal the surprise.
00:26:42
What if, Stephen, you put in the description, surprise 100th episode case? Yeah, I can do that.
00:26:48
Okay. Oh my God, they're going to fucking shit. Guys, surprise. But there is a surprise because then what was your reveal?
00:26:56
Okay, so yesterday, not yesterday, last week, this is how fucking, this is how professional
00:27:01
this podcast is. As Kara and Steven are walking out of my door after we recorded and we're trying to guess
00:27:06
like what, we were going to, we want to cover a story together, blah, blah, blah.
00:27:10
And as we're walking out the door, are you walking out the door? I'm like, one of us is like, staircase.
00:27:14
Great. Goodbye. I think it was you. Okay. And so credit. Thank you, but I don't want to. I don't need it. I turn on the staircase to watch it and realize
00:27:22
I have just been bullshitting it this past couple of years when people are like,
00:27:25
have you seen the staircase? And I'm like, yeah, because I don't want to be like, no.
00:27:29
Of course. You know, 100%. 100%. 100%. And I kind of convinced myself that I had seen it. But as we're watching episode one,
00:27:37
I was like, oh my God, I've never fucking seen this. I've watched the forensic files about it,
00:27:41
and I've read a ton about it, but I've never fucking watched the actual documentary.
00:27:44
It's so funny. Basically, the entire relationship and our story, our origin story is predicated on the fact that we both talked endlessly about the staircase at Matt's Halloween party.
00:27:59
And all of that's a lie. That's like a misremembered. But I still knew about it.
00:28:03
No, of course. But I didn't know. I didn't know. You know what? After watching most of it, I didn't know what I was talking about.
00:28:12
God bless you. It goes to show what a fucking glass of whiskey will do. But you did in that way where this is one of the stories that's been around for so long.
00:28:25
And we've talked about that where the first couple true crime, like, you know, 48 hours types of shows that I saw about it presented it in a very clear cut way.
00:28:39
Yeah. I went back and watched the forensic files, which we'll talk about once we get through it.
00:28:42
But it's definitely this is the story. And then shit just keeps throughout the years getting added on to it.
00:28:49
Yes. And it's really crazy. And I do have to say watching the documentary gave me a completely different.
00:28:54
So, guys, go watch The Staircase. It's like a 10 part documentary. Yeah. 45 minutes each or something like that.
00:29:00
This is what I love about this case is it's all opinion. I mean, there there's just so many potential.
00:29:06
I feel like this is the part of true crime where people started to go, oh yeah, the justicism,
00:29:14
and I should say this, white people or not people of color started to go, oh, the justice
00:29:20
system could get swayed one way or the other based on what the people in charge think of
00:29:25
who they're trying. And that I don't think anyone really looked at that much before this case where it's like,
00:29:33
now look at it this way. And then you're like, oh, my God, they hated him because of this and that.
00:29:37
I mean, this is the original jinx. This is the original making a murderer. Like, if you have feelings about that, you know, you need to watch this.
00:29:45
I think this was way before it's, you know, time. And I think this also two years before.
00:29:52
God, it seems so vintage, doesn't it? Well the like the American Justice I watched today was super vintage Yeah Yeah Well I watched the forensic Okay let talk about the fucking case All right Let get into this
00:30:05
Are we getting into it? So this is the death of Kathleen Peterson, period. The episode of the American Justice that I watched starring Bill Curtis from 2004 was called Blood on the Staircase.
00:30:21
Okay. Well, the forensic files is called a novel idea. Oh, no. Because he was a writer.
00:30:28
Because he was a novelist. It's a novel idea to kill your wife. Yeah. I'm like, oh, man.
00:30:33
Yeah. Love it. Blood on the staircase. Okay. Fuck. Sorry, stay on. Hold on one second.
00:30:43
Can I just say? Yeah. Oh, wait, are we going to cut that out entirely? Because Georgia got up to get something.
00:30:48
Oh, yeah. And as she walked over to her stairs, started walking down and goes, oh, my God, what if I fall down these stairs?
00:30:55
Wouldn't that be great if I just died by falling down the stairs? So clean. Hundredth episode.
00:31:01
Hundredth episode. About a staircase fall. About a staircase fall. You can't see anything.
00:31:05
So Stephen and I can actually say anything we want happened. Yeah. And as long as we're on the same page.
00:31:10
And the recording would be played in court over and over again. Because as I yell, I go, no, Karen and Stephen.
00:31:17
Right. That's what I yell for no reason. And then I'll be like, your honor, you can clearly hear Stephen stroking his mustache.
00:31:23
You know, he's sitting down. Yeah. You can hear me eating cake and drooling about fucking cake.
00:31:30
Well, where was the cake place at the time? Was it on the staircase? It was into my mouth.
00:31:34
Okay. The whole time. Should we just read them at the same time? Sure. And then I was thinking.
00:31:39
You mean two people talking at the same time? Okay, ready. On December? Go ahead.
00:31:43
19. 19. 30. 19. 72. too. Also, I think at the beginning of this, we should say what we think
00:31:50
the truth is. Okay. I think we should say that till the end. Well, I'm going to convince you of my
00:31:59
truth. Okay. What about you? I mean, maybe we just talk through it as we go. And we'll just...
00:32:08
If we're yelling at each other, then we have different opinions. Yes. If we're like
00:32:13
building each other up, If love can build a bridge, then we both think he's guilty.
00:32:20
I definitely think he's guilty. Oh, good. Me too. Yeah. 100%. Come on. Well, you know what's funny is before I watched the staircase, I thought, I was like, well,
00:32:31
the owl theory makes so much sense, which we'll get to you guys. Yes. But now that I'm like, oh, no, you're so sweet, baby angel.
00:32:38
You think that fucking UFOs exist? And the owl. Well, they do. Now we know they do.
00:32:45
They do. Alien, unidentified alien alloys have been discovered. Aliens exist. We've all, I've known that anyone that watches Ancient Aliens knows it and has known it for
00:32:57
quite some time. Sidebar. Anyone that a Siamese cat knows that they're fucking aliens?
00:33:02
That aliens live here. They were here first. It's their planet. We're visiting it.
00:33:06
Everything. Wait. No, but I was going to say that I think that the reason that documentary is so amazing
00:33:14
amazing and effective is because you never see, or you rarely see the murderer's family
00:33:24
featured the way this family is featured. So you go through it with the family and you want
00:33:31
what the family wants because there's so much pain and horror going on and the layers keep
00:33:37
unpeeling where you're like, Oh no. So then you start to understand why people do the things they
00:33:43
I had it was so watching it was so problematic for me because it kind of it made me what's so funny about the documentary is clearly made from a standpoint that he is innocent, which is so ironic that it made me 100 percent sure that he's guilty.
00:34:00
So there's something fucking off there. And what is off is Michael Peterson's personality.
00:34:05
Hell yeah. And how fucking creepy and narcissistic and wrong he is. And I swear to God, the two adoptive daughters, they're in a fucking cult.
00:34:15
Don't call your dad. Right. Because he's... Because you got to get off the phone with your dad.
00:34:20
Those two girls, man. It's very sad, but it's... But I think... Well, I think that documentary wasn't necessarily on his side.
00:34:28
I think they were doing the, we're just verite. We're here to record what's happening and what happens happens.
00:34:33
But they left out so much evidence that that's... I just don't think that's possible.
00:34:38
Oh, okay. Well, but I think it in in pretending that it's guiding you this way opens the door to let you go that way.
00:34:50
You know what I mean? It's that thing of like, yeah, you can come all the way into the house because we know he's innocent.
00:34:54
And then you're like, yeah, I smell a rat, which none of that would have happened if they hadn't done it that way.
00:35:00
It's like it's the case of fucking this guy who thinks that he seems very empathetic and that and seems deep and interesting when really everyone is so on to him.
00:35:10
Can I read what he what he can I just can we start by me saying when he got out when he got out on bail of prison, the first thing he said, are you ready?
00:35:21
Are you ready for this to say that? Oh, do you have it on? Go ahead. And then we'll see if it's the same thing.
00:35:26
OK. Kathleen was my life. I whisper her name in my heart a thousand times. She is there, but I can't stop crying.
00:35:35
Kathleen was my life. I whisper her name in my heart a thousand times. She is there, but I can't stop crying.
00:35:46
It's just like... I would never have done anything to hurt her. That's okay. I am innocent of these charges.
00:35:53
Real loud. And we will prove it in court Well if we gonna I have stuff to talk about about those last two lines too Oh my God Let get into this This is going to be fun because those last two lines Oh God I have the fucking Okay But really quick
00:36:05
So you and I just picked out the exact same moment where, cause that was also in that
00:36:10
episode. By the way, everyone, he's in an asphalt parking lot when he says that.
00:36:13
With news cameras in front of him and he is doing the worst acting. It's like. Of sorrow.
00:36:19
It's, it's faux somber. And then like, I'm a really good writer. So here's, you can see him practicing this in the mirror.
00:36:27
It is the fakest fucking thing you've ever seen. And it is such a presentation. It's so much artifice.
00:36:33
And in the background is his poor daughter. Okay, here we go. But I was going to say, starting from the 911 call, which is also insanely fake.
00:36:42
Okay, well, here's what I told Steven. And let me know if you're up for this. You know what?
00:36:45
We might need to start doing things at the same, the same one at the same time. So 100 through fucking 199 is us together, but not knowing.
00:36:57
Yeah, we don't know what the case is. Either that or this is because we both want to say something, the most irritating episode we've ever done.
00:37:03
This could be the biggest clusterfuck, which is why some people who don't know what this case is are like,
00:37:07
can you just tell me what happened first? If you don't know what the case is, you know what?
00:37:12
You know what? You know what? You can't afford it. Please don't hang up the phone.
00:37:15
Hang up the phone. All right. Okay. On December 9th, 2001, this dude named Michael Peterson, you heard his voice, he's a creep, called 911 to report that he had just found his wife of 14 years, 48 year old Kathleen unconscious.
00:37:29
And he said he thought that she fell down the stairs of their Forest Hills home in Durham, North Carolina.
00:37:37
Michael said that he had been outside by the pool and had come in at 2.40 a.m. to find Kathleen at the foot of their stairs.
00:37:43
He maintained that she must have fallen down the stairs because they had been drinking and she had taken Valium all night.
00:37:48
interject at any fucking moment. Oh, I was just going to say Valium is kind of a one-off thing
00:37:52
in my experience. Yeah. It's not like you party with it all night long. Right. You take the one, you're going to go to bed. Good night.
00:37:58
Yeah. And a story. Yeah. Okay. But when police arrived, the amount of blood on the walls made them
00:38:02
suspicious. So toxicology reports show that Kathleen had an alcohol content of 0.07%. Karen,
00:38:11
I want to ask you something right now. I was thinking it'd be fun. We got a breathalyzer and made Stephen get that drunk and see how drunk that is.
00:38:20
It's not that drunk. I would say that's like four healthy glasses of wine. Yeah.
00:38:25
Because 0.08 is legally. Right. That's not illegal in North Carolina. But see, my point is it's not that high.
00:38:33
Like you can get arrested for buzz driving because 0.08 is not sloppy, drunk, crazy.
00:38:40
0.08 is. You shouldn't drive at that point. You have impaired yourself, but you're not, you know, blind drunk.
00:38:46
So, you know, so devil's advocate, it's not impossible that at that point you'd fall down the flight of stairs if you were running up them.
00:38:52
Not impossible. Yeah. But sorry, she's running upstairs. Yeah. And she's falling backwards, not from the top of the stairs, but almost from the bottom of the stairs.
00:39:03
Well, let's get to that. Okay. Two. So Michael claimed that he had been outside by the pool with Kathleen.
00:39:09
They had been talking because they're madly in love with each other, according to him, until she went in around midnight and that he had come home.
00:39:17
He come back in around 45 minutes later at two for I don't know the timelines where to find her at the foot of the stairs.
00:39:24
So but here's the thing. It was fucking December and he's saying he's sitting by the pool finishing his drink and shit and shorts and a T-shirt.
00:39:32
It's 50 to 55 degrees outside. You know how you do. Right. Which is like, yeah, your couch and your warm house is whatever, 40 feet away.
00:39:43
You're just going to go sit by the pool unless they were fighting for 45 minutes.
00:39:46
But it's also a fucking palatial mansion. So there's 800 rooms for you to go into.
00:39:51
Yes. But I mean, like if they got into a spat at the pool and she stormed in a if she fell so badly that she was killed.
00:39:59
Yeah. You would hear that. And you would hope that you would the clonk. Even if you didn't know for sure, you'd be like, maybe I should go check.
00:40:06
Even if I'm mad, I should go check. He doesn't do that. Right. For an hour almost.
00:40:12
Yes. Okay. Okay. And the other thing is, too, so he calls 911. And before the ambulance gets there, between that time, his son, Todd, from a previous marriage, who's like in his 20s, is already there.
00:40:27
What's he doing there? Okay. He lived at the house, though. No, he didn't. Oh, I thought he did.
00:40:31
I don't think he did. He didn't live there. He was out of the house at a party. This was the American justice that I watched.
00:40:38
He was down the street at a party. Okay. And then came home. So the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained severe injuries, including a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage, which isn't the hyoid bone that I always talk about, but something similar.
00:40:51
and seven lacerations at the top and back of her head, consistent with blows from a blunt object caused by homicidal assault
00:41:00
and had died from blood loss 90 minutes to two hours after sustaining her injuries.
00:41:06
So here's what I was thinking. Since we both think he's guilty and it's all bullshit,
00:41:11
should we listen to the 911 call? No. Come on. Okay, you can play it. You can play it.
00:41:16
But it's... We can say it too. it's normally 911 calls upset me because it's a real moment of the worst it like makes my
00:41:24
adrenaline go yeah like but this instead fills me with absolute disgust because it's insanely fake
00:41:31
that's why i want to listen to it because it's like do you have it i told steven to have it
00:41:36
ready just it's just so unbelievable to me Term 911, where's your emergency? 1810 Cedar Street, please.
00:41:44
What's wrong? My wife had an accident. She's still breathing. What kind of accident?
00:41:48
She's still breathing. Please, come on. Is she conscious? What? Is she conscious?
00:41:53
No, she's not conscious. Please Okay how many stairs did he fall down What How many stairs How many stairs Huh Calm down sir Huh Calm down
00:42:05
No, 15, 20, I don't know. Please, get somebody here right away. Okay, somebody's dispatching the ambulance while I ask you questions.
00:42:13
It's a force shield, okay? Please, please. He is, the fakery is he wants to get off that phone.
00:42:21
Yeah. he, he is playing a part and he can't sustain it. He's delivering his part and that's all he can do.
00:42:28
And he, it's that thing in like acting where it's like, if you scream really loud, then
00:42:32
you've are, there's nowhere else to go. So he did, he didn't start trying to be calm, which is, I think what people normally do,
00:42:38
or if they're having a reaction, they, they listen because they need help. So they want to listen to what the person who can give them help is doing and saying,
00:42:47
And because the person on the other line is going to tell them how to potentially save this person's life.
00:42:52
So you need to calm down and listen to them. That's what they're trained to do. Yeah.
00:42:56
But he's not doing any of those things because he just wants the big show of how upset he is.
00:42:59
Right. And he wants to deliver his information, A, that she's still alive, to lie about the timeline, and that she fell downstairs.
00:43:07
The fact that he doesn't mention, and if you see the photos, it's an insane amount of blood.
00:43:11
And the fact that he doesn't yell, there's so much blood. Oh my, you know, like most people, if they see them out, a blood would freak the fuck
00:43:18
out. Yes. And now the blood part, when you like in the, when the one that I was watching, the second
00:43:24
the camera goes in and they have like the police camera of walking in the amount of
00:43:28
blood that's there is so ridiculous for a stair fall for a slip and fall downstairs,
00:43:33
which is not, if you think about like when you fall down, you skin your knee, if you
00:43:38
hit your head, you'd have a little bit of blood. There is blood everywhere at the bottom of the staircase.
00:43:44
And then smeared and then splatted over it. Like, it's nuts. And the other thing that this so this person, Ursula Franco, who's a criminologist, she has a really great website, M-A-L-K-E Crime Notes.
00:43:59
She she does the thing I love where she breaks down the wording and in a lot of his speeches and things he says.
00:44:06
And one of them is that when he when she says, how many stares? That's a question he did not expect to hear.
00:44:13
And it takes him 15 to 25 seconds from the beginning of the call to answer that because he wasn't near the body when he was asked that question.
00:44:22
So the thing is, and she says most people when someone is hurt are next to the body because they're ready to help and they want direction on how to help.
00:44:31
Right. But he was in another room away from the mess. And so he stalls by saying stairs.
00:44:38
And it's only because he has to run over and see how many stairs there are. And they said when they did the luminol test, they showed barefoot tracks away from the area and going into different parts of the house.
00:44:50
So he was in the blood. He was standing over her body and then left, which is like if you if your loved one, the person that you love the most in the world was laying in a pile of blood.
00:45:03
Where are you going? Yeah. Like what? Yeah. That doesn't it doesn't really track.
00:45:07
No. Seemingly. Yes. Well, we're always right. So, um, okay. So also there's a bloody shoe print. So, so Kathleen is found in this prone position on her back at the bottom of the staircase, like laying up the first couple stairs. Right. So she's on her back.
00:45:32
But on the back of her sweatpants is a shoe print that matches the shoes that Michael was wearing that night.
00:45:41
But when the ambulance arrives and the EMT arrives, he's not wearing shoes. For some reason, he's fucking barefoot and his socks and shoes are off and like near her body.
00:45:50
Why is that? Because he didn't want to track it, probably, right? So how would his shoe print end up there?
00:45:56
You mean like when he kicks her down the stairs or kicks her from behind or something?
00:46:00
Yeah. Well, also that when they get into and I mean, we're not gonna be able to do this chronologically. I don't like it's it's Rex it for the discussion. But like in the in the case, when when they talk about the when the defense is talking about what possibly could have happened to make that much blood, that is not an not an attack.
00:46:21
And that many and that many wounds on her head because it's seven wounds. So it's not like she fell down the stairs and maybe would have sustained two head injuries.
00:46:30
Let's let's be generous because we also know she didn't fall from the top of the stairs.
00:46:34
Yeah. She fell from five or six stairs up. Yeah. So to get seven head injuries, how did they explain it?
00:46:40
It's fucking hilarious. She falls. She hits her head. She gets up, spits blood like they're trying to rationalize how blood is everywhere.
00:46:49
she slips and falls back down which is explaining the fact that she had blood on the bottoms of her
00:46:56
bare feet even though if she had so if she had fallen and become unconscious she wouldn't have
00:47:00
blood on the bottoms of her feet right so she did how like they have to explain that too right so
00:47:06
that's then they say that she does that multiple times tries to get up falls and hits her head
00:47:11
hard enough to lacerate her fucking skull so meanwhile her loving loving husband is sitting
00:47:16
out by the pool. She is slipping and falling in her own blood and dying. And he doesn't hear it
00:47:22
and doesn't come inside for 45 minutes. From a 0.07 wine intake and a Valium. I just keep thinking
00:47:30
of the time I fell down on the street in front of the movie theater, my legendary story, where I
00:47:35
skin my knee. When you fall down, even like say eight stairs, you break a hip, you break your
00:47:42
kneecap. I don't think anyone ever does that, but I'm saying worst case scenario, yes, you
00:47:49
sprain your ankle, you get a concussion on your head. If you did cut your head, you have a little
00:47:53
bit of blood. The idea that there's a pool of blood, blood splattered on every wall, smeared all around.
00:48:00
And to be fair, we all know the head, the scalp bleeds profusely. Yeah. Fair enough.
00:48:05
But why would seven lacerations be present if, you know, it's... And all in the same spot.
00:48:12
It's not like all, like, she's falling down and... Hit her temple, hit the back of her head.
00:48:17
It's all on the back and lower part of her head as if she was running up the stairs away from someone.
00:48:22
Yeah. And they hit her with something. Who clocked her, like, repeatedly beat her down, essentially.
00:48:28
What I think is interesting is that there's a spot of blood on the wall as if the first attack had happened.
00:48:36
Someone tried to clean up the blood and then she wasn't dead. And there's blood, there's blood spray over the spot where someone was trying to clean the blood off the wall.
00:48:47
Yes. So that means either, I think it's either that she became conscious again and wasn't dead and he beat her again.
00:48:54
or he tried to clean it, realized it wasn't going to work. And so tried to cover up that clean spot with more blood,
00:49:02
just kind of sprayed it on there. Jesus. Do you know what I mean? Yes. That's dark.
00:49:07
I mean, like the idea that then he's just, he's just like this associated like. But you can tell the difference between the blood that was already there
00:49:13
and the blood that wasn't, that came later. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things in this case that make it so he'll never,
00:49:23
so people can question this forever. And one of them is the fucking blood spatter analyst.
00:49:29
I mean, who, Dwayne? Dwayne. Let's talk about Dwayne. He's truly my favorite part of that documentary because he looks like he was cast by the Coen brothers.
00:49:38
He is the goofiest looking motherfucker. And the way he talks about the blood spatter, the way he gets excited, like he's the expert here or whatever.
00:49:47
And then, of course, come to find out later on after this case, after he's tried, after he's convicted, this blood spatter guy.
00:49:55
It turns out, wait, I have the details here from Stephen's timeline and also from I wrote Dirty Dwayne Deaver.
00:50:04
A government ordered inquest found that agents of the SBI, including Dwayne Deaver, repeatedly aided prosecutors in obtaining convictions over a 16 year period by misrepresenting blood evidence and keeping critical notes from the attorneys.
00:50:21
That was 34 cases where he falsely represented evidence. So essentially, Michael Peterson gets found guilty.
00:50:29
He spends eight years in prison. And then fucking Dirty Dwayne comes out that he's a lying liar who lies.
00:50:36
Yeah. And all this shit comes out. And so even if his fucking, even if his blood spatter analysis in this case was totally correct, it doesn't fucking matter.
00:50:44
Which some of it is, and some of it I understand isn't. Well, a lot of it is just him riffing.
00:50:50
So it's like him at home going, well, if you do this, then this. And if we hear, I'm going to do this with this.
00:50:55
Yeah. He's doing a lot of like, I approximated it. So now this is scientific evidence.
00:51:01
Like he does it enough times until it fits the story he wants to tell. Right. Which is so problematic.
00:51:06
Yeah. Yeah. And crazy. And the idea that that amount, what was I going to say? It was the amount of blood and the yeah, just to me, it's open and shut in that part where it's like if you're saying she fell backwards down the stairs a couple times, it still does not.
00:51:28
It just doesn't explain that amount of blood. Right. It doesn't. Right. Well, so Michael Peterson also had blood on the inside crotch of his shorts.
00:51:38
so that you know the dirty dwayne's argument was that could only happen if he was standing over her
00:51:44
beating her right blood spatter which is probably fucking true yes but but then i guess scientifically
00:51:52
you can say but you could sit here and go or if he he flicked his shoe up and there's some like
00:51:59
you can't attest for what happens to liquid in a certain scenario the thing i think is super
00:52:05
fake. I mean, like it sucks because that guy himself being a fraud made everything a fraud
00:52:11
where it's still, it's the amount of blood, whatever direction it's spattered in or whatever.
00:52:16
Yeah. This is not a, I fell down the stairs and hit my head a couple of times reasonably. Yeah.
00:52:22
This is like a murder scene. There's, but there's like four things and we'll get to all of them,
00:52:27
but there's four things that make you go, this isn't, this isn't an open and shut case. And one
00:52:32
of them is Dirty Dwayne. And we'll get to the other ones. Well, and the daughter, I never saw
00:52:38
this in the staircase, but the daughter, Caitlin, who was Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage.
00:52:44
She said that when they first, when Kathleen and Michael first got married and she moved into the
00:52:50
house with the family, she saw him with like a hair trigger temper and rage issues several times.
00:52:56
I've never heard that. In this episode of American Justice, they have her speaking and she's not in,
00:53:01
yeah as far as i remember she's not in the staircase she's not because uh she was every
00:53:07
his two biological sons his two adopted daughters and caitlin who was um kathleen's daughter um
00:53:17
were all on his side and then caitlin saw the autopsy report yeah and changed her mind
00:53:24
and she ended up suing him too yeah taking him and winning and winning for wrongful death
00:53:29
okay sorry because he did it because it's like he did it just from the get-go but okay um let's
00:53:40
talk about the fucking problems that pop up and they pop up it's so interesting on the staircase
00:53:44
because they pop up during the recording do you want to get into those sure the gay porn thing
00:53:49
i love that guy he's my favorite part of the staircase oh my god what did he what was his
00:53:54
argument on the stand what did he say verbatim i knew diddly oh i don i i mean he had a lot of good quotes let get into okay so what i wrote about was that like there were uh there were two
00:54:08
motives and one was that kathleen had a 1.5 million dollar life insurance policy why uh-huh well
00:54:17
Because she was very fucking wealthy, had a good job. So around $2 million with all of her assets at the time of her death.
00:54:29
And the Petersons, at the time, were facing financial issues. They had $143,000 in debt at the time of Kathleen's death.
00:54:39
Kathleen's company was undergoing major layoffs. Kathleen was in danger of losing her $145,000 a year job and her benefits.
00:54:46
and she had deferred a lot of her salary. So they didn't have a lot of cash, which is why they were in so much debt.
00:54:52
And Michael hadn't had income for a lot of years. So, and also I think secretly the sons were in a lot of debt as well
00:55:03
because there was an email to Michael Peterson's ex-wife talking about how they were going to deal
00:55:09
with their son's debt. And in the email, it said, Michael says, I cannot speak to Kathleen about this.
00:55:16
Oh, because the money was such a huge issue. Because who knows why? Yeah, because money was an issue, because she was sick of, you know, this is speculation, because she was sick of helping them because, you know, they weren't her biological sons for whatever reason.
00:55:32
You know, they'd gotten in illegal trouble in the past, which is true. So there was some secretive stuff going on about money.
00:55:41
So there's money, which I don't think is, I think this is a crime of passion. I don't think the money.
00:55:47
No, I don't think the money and I don't think the gay porn, which... You don't? No.
00:55:52
In the American Justice, they're like, Kathleen was on his computer two hours before her death.
00:55:58
And the theory is that she stumbled upon... I don't think it's the gay porn. I think it's the fact that he was trying to hire a gay sex worker to have sex with.
00:56:08
And she stumbled upon that information. You don't think it's that? No. No. What do you think the motive is?
00:56:16
I don't know. But I mean, you could, her going on his computer doesn't mean she found anything.
00:56:21
Yeah, but okay, except that she never went on that computer. The only reason she was doing it was because the next morning she had a conference call.
00:56:33
And so she didn't have her work laptop at home with her. So one of her colleagues sent her some information that she needed to get off the home computer.
00:56:40
So she checked it before midnight, which she never did. I had to ask Michael Peterson for the password to get into their joint email account.
00:56:49
So she was never on that computer. And he had printouts of a conversation he had with a male escort about the kind of sex that they were going to have.
00:56:58
And when he could come over, I read all the emails between the two of them. It's fucking intense.
00:57:06
Well, but is there proof that she read that? Well, I mean, no, but if she opened the drawer, one drawer to get a pen or whatever and found this or, you know, clicked on one email in their email chain and saw it.
00:57:21
I mean, it's so easy when she's on that PC to find any evidence of this. Gave this, you know, his bisexuality, his hiring escorts, his affairs with men that he had had in their relationship.
00:57:37
it's so easy if she had not stumbled upon that and then died that night. I mean, it's just there's there's too much of a link between those two things to me.
00:57:46
Well, I just think if he'd been doing that secretly for a long time, he wouldn't have them printed up and sitting in a drawer like he probably gotten away with it for so long that he was he thought.
00:57:56
Well, it's not that long. I mean, it's like what they were together for eight years or like.
00:58:01
They were together 10 years before they got married. well so i guess my point is this i i don't i don't buy the idea that all of a sudden
00:58:10
she's clicking things and it's like that's it and also because he that's her being enraged at him
00:58:17
i think something happened where he like she was like she's like i'm gonna what the fuck is this
00:58:23
i'm gonna expose you get the fuck out of my house you're you're not he has no money he hasn't had a
00:58:29
job in three years she's like but that's like so you're saying that the marriage was like eroding
00:58:34
anyway and then this was her the like left final straw no i think her finding emails that he is
00:58:41
literally planning for that week a meetup with a gay escort the emails are in a conversation
00:58:48
of not someone who is new at this right so she finds those emails and and realizes and comes
00:58:56
downstairs and confronts him. What the fuck is this? This isn't like, this is not who I married.
00:59:01
I'm losing my fucking mind. You know, has the emails in her hand, goes to walk upstairs. He
00:59:07
fucking panics. His whole life is about to be exposed. So do we know for a fact those emails
00:59:12
were printed up? Yeah. That's, that's a, that's evidence that they had. Not that they had the
00:59:18
lawyers printed them, but Michael Peterson printed the email. According to forensic files. Yes,
00:59:22
They were printed in his in the drawer in his office. OK, well, just I guess my point is that's all very that just seems like if he had a secret gay life, that would be something.
00:59:34
I just didn't see that relationship in the end. The way I guess it was presented.
00:59:40
I was thinking more of she did something, said something to him that was more of like her attacking him.
00:59:47
So why couldn't it be you're gay? It can be. I just telling you that it convenient because it the one night she uses the computer the one time and then she finds everything Like he not hiding it at all a and then b the lawyers use that in the courtroom um as this huge thing of
01:00:07
like oh my god he's not who anybody and it was to me that was one of those moments in the documentary
01:00:13
that was so amazing because then you watched all of those people in durham be like this is disgusting
01:00:18
this is horrifying oh my god this is insane where it's like actually there's tons of people that do
01:00:22
all the time but i think which is why i loved that fucking sex worker because he got up there
01:00:27
and just like yeah this is what it happens a lot it's not a big deal what i don't think i don't
01:00:31
think that the people in durham and in the in the documentary michael peterson talks a lot of shit
01:00:36
about closed-mindedness here in north carolina blah blah blah but i don't think they were upset
01:00:40
with him being bisexual or having homosexual relationships i think that they were pointing
01:00:45
out what a liar michael peterson was and michael peterson was saying that kathleen knew about his
01:00:51
infidelities with men was open to him being bisexual and experiencing that outside of his
01:00:55
relationship with her. But I think the argument was he's a known liar. He lied about getting the
01:01:02
Purple Heart in Vietnam. He lied that he had gotten some injuries in a car accident in Japan
01:01:07
years before and said that he had gotten them in Vietnam. His ex-wife and he divorced because he
01:01:13
was having affairs with men and women. So they were showing him as a known liar and saying that
01:01:18
she knew about the gay relationships takes away the motive that he would have killed her because
01:01:23
she found out about it that night and he flipped the fuck out. Well, I mean, look, I'm, it's not
01:01:27
like I'm saying that isn't true or I'm, I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying to me, that seems
01:01:33
like it pulls through the thing because in the documentary they do in the courtroom, people act
01:01:39
like, Holy fuck. It's on camera. It's like one of the biggest parts of that documentary. I mean,
01:01:43
No, that's just my point of people in Durham were freaked out about it. People in Durham were.
01:01:48
It did become the way that that woman, Freda Brown, the prosecutor starts talking about him and this.
01:01:55
Yeah. She's so evil about it. It's like she's like the wicked witch of the West.
01:02:00
So that to me, I felt like that was a card that they played to cast him in this light in the courtroom to make him look bad.
01:02:09
And then when you watch the documentary, you're like, well, those people are bad and that makes him good.
01:02:14
And so you start playing against, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, they're bad and he's good.
01:02:18
But maybe those do. But I think maybe the card was he's I think they were surprised to hear that a married, a straight buried man was having these illicit relationships with men.
01:02:32
I don't think it was that he's having relationships with men. This man's having a relationship with men.
01:02:36
I think it was definitely. I mean, I'm not so fucking stupid that I think that, you know, people don't get surprised when they find out someone's gay, obviously.
01:02:45
But I think part of it was did Kathleen. I mean, it's such a it's such a great narrative.
01:02:53
She found out this thing about him that he, you know, even if she knew he looked at gay porn, found out that he is he's planning on meeting up with and paying for sex from a gay escort.
01:03:08
She found out that night. That's the night she died. Like the fact that she was on the computer that night, even though she's never on the computer.
01:03:14
And that's the night she slipped and fell. But we don't know for a fact that's the night she found out.
01:03:18
We just know that he had printed up emails and that he erased that. Like that the cops found out he was erasing stuff off his computer.
01:03:25
And then they went in and were like, your computer's filled with gay porn and you're having these affairs.
01:03:30
But she went on the computer for the first time in a long time that night that she died.
01:03:36
Yes, I get that. That's a crazy coincidence. it's not though I mean I just don't think it's not a crazy coincidence it's not a coincidence
01:03:44
it's like that's the motive that she found out that he was paying for sex from a gay guy
01:03:49
but I get it my thing is I think it's too much of a coincidence to say all of those things happened
01:03:54
because she was like oh I gotta check my email here I in my mind that's that's a thing that got
01:04:02
pulled through so that it would be like yeah you know salacious so it would be against him and and
01:04:07
And then when the documentary comes and everyone in 2015 or whenever it was looks at that,
01:04:15
they're like, well, fuck those Southern bigots. And that makes him look good somehow.
01:04:22
But I guess my point was, I think something else happened that would... When he talks and he is so remote and calm and, oh, he's just so affable and so intelligent.
01:04:36
And so you see that thing where it's like, but the one thing that would turn him and I don't, I'm not saying I know what it is.
01:04:43
I'm just saying it's a thing that makes him snap, go into a rage and then beat her till the whole fucking stairwell is bloody.
01:04:53
So like, it's not, it's not like, Hey you and you, you did this and you did that or her like being shrill and up.
01:04:59
Maybe he's never been abusive before. No, he has been. Oh, has he? Yes. Well, then we get into, right?
01:05:06
Then we get into the family friend, the woman in Germany. But is that abuse? Okay.
01:05:11
Yes. So the other weird bombshell that came out during the, it was during the staircase being
01:05:18
filmed? Well, it's during the case, but I mean, it's because her Kathleen, is it Kathleen's sister
01:05:26
or his first wife's sister calls and says, you do realize. Right. Oh no, sorry. It's the girl's mother's sister.
01:05:34
So it's the girl's aunts that Michael Peterson is. They're his words. And the aunt calls and says, you do realize their mother was like died at the bottom of a staircase after he walked them home.
01:05:49
And he was the last person to see her alive. Yeah. He walked the mother and girls home after they ate dinner at the Peterson house and then a neighbor saw him running out of the house later on and she was found at the bottom of the stairs with seven lacerations on her head on the back of her head
01:06:07
exactly the same fucking death 20 years before that's insanity it it here let's see uh okay so
01:06:18
So, yeah. So two decades before, Michael Peterson found Kathleen at the bottom of her stairs.
01:06:25
He had been friends with another woman named Elizabeth Ratliff, and they had all lived in Germany.
01:06:31
Michael Peterson was married to his first wife at the time, had his two sons. Elizabeth apparently died after a fall down a staircase, and Michael had been the last person here alive.
01:06:40
authorities ruled Ratliff's death to be of natural clauses, concluding that a cerebral hemorrhage caused her to fall and strike her head.
01:06:49
Which makes absolutely no sense. So they're saying something, basically she was at the top of the stairs,
01:06:54
went, oh my God, my head, and fell down the stairs, got seven lacerations. It's almost like that one time you get what happened.
01:07:04
You get why they concluded that. You know what I mean? Sure. Like, yeah, OK, that could have happened.
01:07:11
Fell down the stairs. Right. Not looking into it. She had headaches before, like, supposedly had headaches before, weeks before that happened.
01:07:20
So she also looks so fucking identical. Elizabeth Ratcliffe and Kathleen look like they could be fucking sisters.
01:07:28
There's a most insane way. Yes. There's a part where there's side by sides of Elizabeth in the like 70s, probably.
01:07:35
And Kathleen. and you could completely go, oh, that's her in the 70s and that's her now.
01:07:41
Yeah, totally. They look so similar. It's insane. And it's this thing of like, you know, did he kill the first woman?
01:07:48
Did he kill Elizabeth or did Elizabeth just die that way? And so when he killed Kathleen 20 years later, he set up her body to look the way Elizabeth,
01:07:59
you know, like maybe he didn't kill Elizabeth, the first one. Maybe she actually died that way.
01:08:06
And he and he in this moment of like, well, I need to set the body to look like it was an accident.
01:08:11
Kind of recreated the same scene. But that would mean he was at the scene. Right. Right.
01:08:19
Because he probably. No, he found her body. He came. He came when the nanny found Elizabeth Ratcliffe's body.
01:08:25
She went and got Michael Peterson. Oh, so he saw it. Yeah. OK. But I also don't believe that.
01:08:30
I think he killed. No, no. I mean, also because it doesn't explain the seven lacerations.
01:08:33
It doesn't explain. It's like in the what was that fucking Jessica Biel show? Oh, yeah.
01:08:43
The center. Remember when she stabs him the exact same way? Yeah. It's that's what it reminds me of where it's like seven, seven head lacerations where it's like if it's a blow poke or if it's whatever the thing is, it's like someone goes, fuck you, walks away from him, goes upstairs or however it happens.
01:09:01
and he just walks up and goes, da-na-na-na-na. Because that's his muscle memory.
01:09:06
That's what he does to stop someone. And it's a rageaholic explosion where it's like this crazy attack
01:09:13
and it happens the same way. And then, I mean, who knows? This is all obviously bullshit theory, but...
01:09:18
But we're right. But to me, he does really seem like one of those people that's like, he's going to keep it so chill
01:09:25
no matter what. Because he does it all the way through the... It's so crazy. Him talking to camera in the staircase
01:09:30
is like one of the most infuriating things to me. This is why part of the reason why I didn't,
01:09:34
I couldn't watch more than five episodes is I was just like, I do not want to see this man again
01:09:38
and hear him speak. Like it was one of those things where Vince had to be like, okay, Georgia, we need to go to bed.
01:09:44
Cause I was screaming at him about, not screaming, but I was like, oh, you know, just yelling at him
01:09:49
because he's such a fucking narcissistic creep. And he does that. He's a little bit of a like Mr. Magoo
01:09:55
where he's like, oh, I don't really know. He's making jokes. He's like, his brother's there.
01:10:00
And they're all just kind of, oh, well, that's very interesting. And there's no shame.
01:10:04
There doesn't seem to be any real affect. So he's not like, you don't see him. The only time he ever seems like worried or to have real human reactions is when they're talking about how much jail time he's looking at.
01:10:18
Other than that, it's like, oh, Kathleen, she was really something. He also doesn't, he answers things in a way incorrectly.
01:10:26
Like, so I printed out this thing from the Malky crime notes where so. OK, so at the at the end of that, I whisper her name bullshit when he says I would never have done anything to hurt her.
01:10:40
He the way he says that it's an so she's this chick, Ursula Franco, says it's an unreliable denial saying I would have never done anything to hurt her.
01:10:51
And then you can add in unless blah, blah, blah. Unless she had done something wrong.
01:10:58
I would have never done anything to hurt her to begin with. Right. And then he also says hurt instead of kill to minimize and distance himself from what happened to deal with the negative emotions.
01:11:09
And she says it's a common strategy used by guilty people to deal with feelings of guilt.
01:11:13
And then he says, I am innocent of these charges. That doesn't mean he didn't kill her.
01:11:19
He's innocent of the charges he's being brought up on. Right. Right. Right. So it's it's another not reliable denial to affirm to be innocent is different from saying I didn't kill.
01:11:31
Yeah. Which is expected when people say they are innocent. They're just denying the conclusion that they are guilty.
01:11:36
And just when they say and when they say I didn't do it, they are denying the action.
01:11:42
So he's saying he's guilty. He's not guilty of the charges. Leaving out what the charges are, again, not telling you I'm innocent of killing my wife.
01:11:50
And it's that, it's the super egomaniacal thing of I am innocent. This is about me and I'm being persecuted and it's so sad for me.
01:12:00
I didn't kill my wife. I would never I would never hurt Kathleen. Yes. Nothing like that. I will. I would never hurt Kathleen conceptually. Right. I mean, not really. Yeah. But yeah, it's so fucked up. Oh, and then he says in in the O.N.S. says I'm truly innocent of these charges. Of course, when you say truly, it's like, why are you making a why are you making a like a qualifier?
01:12:25
blah blah blah. Yes, as opposed to regular innocent. Right, truly. But then another quote he says is, when I think of
01:12:31
Kathleen, and he says this in the staircase, when I think of Kathleen, I remember
01:12:35
unfortunately, what I remember unfortunately is her dying in my arms. That's true.
01:12:39
She died in my arms. Why did I have to say that? He's like goosing the sympathy for himself. Yeah, and it's also like,
01:12:46
we think she died hours before that. So him saying, it's true, she died in my arms
01:12:51
because the first time he called 911, he said she was still alive. And the second time he said she wasn't, but based on the neurons, which we need
01:12:57
to talk about the red blood neurons in her brain, she died hours before. Then he says, uh, then he
01:13:04
says, he says something about how the last time that was, he says when she was walking to go back
01:13:10
into the house after they had been sitting outside, that that was the last time he saw her alive. And
01:13:15
then he goes, um, except for when I found her, like, he has to be like, Oh fuck. I, I'm all,
01:13:20
My story is that I found her alive at the bottom of the stairs, which he didn't.
01:13:25
He forgot. Right. He forgot that was the story. Right. Well, the one thing I was going to say is they talk about the it really bugs me.
01:13:33
Like I when I was watching the documentary, the prosecutorial team, which he hired before there were charges against him.
01:13:44
And what another narcissistic creep. Yes. That that lawyer. Yeah. What's his name?
01:13:48
I remember. Rudolph. But basically he tries to say there is no way that somebody could beat somebody else with a blow poke in that staircase.
01:14:03
Or with any instrument that would have given her those seven deep lacerations in the back of her head at the bottom of that staircase.
01:14:10
There's not enough room that you couldn't pull that thing up over your head over and over and beat someone with that.
01:14:17
which is a bullshit because you don't know that's not the blow poke itself. So that's,
01:14:23
it's like predicating everything on this one concept, which is like, we don't know if that's it.
01:14:27
Don't know if it's a blow, but that's the murder weapon is what I'm saying. Yeah.
01:14:31
And also, or could he could just be holding it right up to the, the hill and not,
01:14:36
it's not like he's got it at the very end. Or I read in another thing that maybe he just hit her head against the stairs.
01:14:42
Sure. And that's, that's, And that would take a small hit to open the scalp up and not cause brain or skull fractures, which is one of the points that people made is if he had beaten her, there would be skull fractures and there wasn't.
01:14:57
So if it was an up close hit, there wouldn't be skull fractures. Maybe. Because she died by bleeding out.
01:15:03
She didn't die from a skull fracture. Right. Which normally I think most doctors would say if you fell down the stairs, hit your head a bunch of times, you still wouldn't bleed out.
01:15:12
Right. You wouldn't bleed out that quickly. And you'd have a concussion. But the other thing is that then later on, they try, they attempt to get a retrial because the neighbor finds a tire iron.
01:15:24
And then they say they withheld this evidence that the prosecution withheld this evidence.
01:15:31
And so the defense was like, we need a new trial because they withheld the possibility there could be a prowler that had a tire iron.
01:15:37
So all of a sudden, the same people are arguing the exact same, the opposite of what they were saying,
01:15:42
which is like, oh, so a prowler could beat her with a tire iron, but he couldn't beat her with a blow poke.
01:15:47
Right. That makes sense. It doesn't. It's so crazy. Also, the blow poke was missing.
01:15:51
And later in the in the documentary, one of the other son finds the blow poke in the garage, which is weird.
01:16:00
Well, and the police who we all know, like, you know, it's we're very biased in this.
01:16:06
But the police in the American Justice are like, we went all over that garage. the blow poke was not in the garage. And didn't they find the blow poke without the end, the tip?
01:16:15
Yeah. I mean, and they, all they did was they didn't find it, leave it where it was,
01:16:19
call the cops, have everybody go take pictures. They presented it in court to say, we found this.
01:16:25
Yeah. And it was on video, right? Like while they were recording the documentary.
01:16:29
Yeah. Yeah. So then we're like, here it is. We found it. Here it is everybody. And then they're
01:16:34
just like, well, yeah, you could have any, you could put that there. And then the camera was
01:16:39
recording and oh my god this is so perfect yeah like it doesn't mean anything but they were
01:16:43
introducing they were doing that tricky shit of introducing yeah ideas that are like oh
01:16:48
yeah yeah um also so there's all these injuries to her head and neck contusions all over her arms
01:16:58
and the back of her arms and she has zero injuries to her knees and legs which you think falling down
01:17:03
the stairs you'd absolutely hit your fucking leg 100 so then the other thing oh god can we talk
01:17:08
about Dr. Henry Lee at some point. Oh, my God. Oh, him spitting that ketchup. Oh, my God.
01:17:14
It's so... And also, you know, they hired him really early. Yeah. They hired him.
01:17:18
They made sure he was available. Like, basically, these lawyers knew this thing was going to blow up.
01:17:24
He was, like, semi-famous author, so they knew... They just... They got their...
01:17:28
All their heavy hitters, like, in line immediately. They knew this could be a big thing.
01:17:32
Yeah. And they could make it a big thing. That they're going to get... If he's the guy that got off,
01:17:37
you know, that was it a football player, right? Basically exonerated for murder.
01:17:43
Then he, then they also were like, well, we'll get Dr. Henry Lee. He's from the OJ trial and we'll get these people and like,
01:17:49
just line everybody up. So it looks like here's, here's what it looks like a team of people who get people off.
01:17:54
They wouldn pay this amount of money if they didn think he was you you know what i mean yeah um okay so here okay so rare red neurons okay basically there were these neurons in kathleen brain
01:18:08
that were consistent with uh the brain having a long period like a couple hours lack of oxygen
01:18:18
before dying so essentially it shows that these injuries to her head happened hours before he
01:18:24
called 911 and she died. And to me, that's, uh, yeah, this means she was unconscious a while
01:18:32
before she actually died. Right. So that to me, that's all you, that's all you really need.
01:18:36
Like, cause it's even longer than his claimed 45 minutes of like, I was out drinking by the pool
01:18:41
and then I found her and he's on 911. He's like, she's alive. So that would have been 45 minutes.
01:18:47
Yeah. And that's not consistent with, you can't, neurons don't lie. Right. That's, that's dude,
01:18:53
that's deep science. Yeah. Also, um, the, uh, thyroid cartilage that was, that was damaged.
01:19:04
I can't remember how they described that. Was it like, uh, you can't break cartilage, right? So
01:19:11
it's like it was, but it was hemorrhaging. And so basically that means when your thyroid cartilage
01:19:17
is damaged, that's strangulation. It has a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage. Oh, okay. So you can
01:19:24
fracture it? So, but it's indicative. It's pressure on the neck. It's indicative of being strangled,
01:19:29
but it also is hemorrhaged. So she was being strangled. She was alive. This isn't a thing where she fell down the stairs, broke
01:19:36
her neck, and that's why that was damaged. She was strangled while alive. Yeah. Almost like someone was holding
01:19:44
her down. Yeah. And also had their foot on the back of her leg to keep her in place and was straddling her at the same time.
01:19:52
And that's how he got blood spatters on the inside of his shorts. Yeah. And just hit her on the back of the head as she was sitting on the stairs,
01:20:00
flipped her over so that she looked like she had tumbled down. Tried to clean up a little bit. She came back. She came back to consciousness,
01:20:09
consciousness, consciousness, consciousness. And he had to hit her again, covered up those blood spatters, called 911.
01:20:18
I mean, or a prowler came in and hit her with an owl. Let's add those together. If we're going to fucking do this.
01:20:29
The owl theory, the idea of the owl theory is from a neighbor, like a nosy neighbor who has nothing to do with the case,
01:20:34
but he's like, I know what this is and it can't be him. And this is really what it is.
01:20:38
when you, for me, people believe it, people totally believe we're going to get to that.
01:20:43
And I get the thing where people are, I was looking up owl injuries today. Cause I was like,
01:20:47
what do those look like compared to what these, both of these cases of both of these women with
01:20:51
seven lacerations on the back of their head, what do they look like? Not the same. Cause owl talons
01:20:56
look like puncture wounds and these, and the lacerations are long drag marquee, like cut deep
01:21:04
cuts they'll do the emphasis uh what do they put it when they put the talon over the wound to show
01:21:09
you what it looks like but actually uh owl talons it's not three claws in the front and one in the
01:21:16
back it's they have three and it's you know listen yes i'm not a fucking owl doctor it's mostly just
01:21:21
those three that go like that right they're kind of like they take up all that space and the one
01:21:26
in the back is up here and fun and cool and i like reading about it but it's not true i don't think
01:21:32
it's true because you was there are you then saying you would have to then say that the that
01:21:38
um what's the woman in germany's name liz elizabeth yeah ratcliffe ratcliffe ratliff um that she was
01:21:45
also attacked by an owl like it right it doesn't make sense because it's the exact same death yeah
01:21:51
um he's the common denominator like maybe the fucking owl found the gay porn could you imagine
01:21:58
that i was like i never use this computer yeah but tonight that's how fucking ridiculous it is
01:22:04
i mean look also with that theory he it was long ago enough that he could have been keeping all of
01:22:10
his porn in a little file that said porn underneath it and then she was like you know what i'm that's
01:22:16
true what kind of women does he like what kind of maybe he was maybe she was fine with him being
01:22:21
into gay porn like that's my thing about it it's like maybe he she did know he was bisexual and was
01:22:27
okay with it. Yeah. Like it's fine. Nothing's wrong with that. But I think when you get over
01:22:33
into fucking paying for sex territory. Yes. Having affairs is a different thing. Having an affair
01:22:38
with a male escort in your home while you're at work. Yeah. You know, that's and Kathleen had
01:22:47
divorced her fucking first husband because he was having an affair. So I didn't know that. Okay. Or
01:22:53
had cheated on her. So she's not okay with affairs based on the fact on her history.
01:22:59
Well, no one's okay with affairs. I don't even mean affairs. I mean like, you know,
01:23:03
open marriages. And he did write in one of the emails to this dude he was trying to hire,
01:23:09
I'm a married man to a wonderful woman. And she knows, or you know, something like that.
01:23:17
So it's like, it's just such a weird mindset. it's like he does whatever he wants right and rationalizes it probably i think you know what
01:23:27
freaked me out even more is that the way that kathleen and michael met was because when they
01:23:34
um when after michael got divorced from his first wife and i think her name is patty and they moved
01:23:41
out she took the sons and michael stayed with the two girls um the two girls started playing with
01:23:46
Caitlin in the neighborhood. No. And that's how Kathleen and Michael met in the first place is because all the girls were
01:23:52
friends. Yeah. And I don know why that freaks me out so much but it like it not like they they came together in this weird way that Well there so there like family photos of them that make me uncomfortable
01:24:07
Like, but they're all standing together as like this Brady Bunch family. Yes. I don't know. How
01:24:12
old were the, the adopted girls when Michael and Kathleen got married? They were older.
01:24:18
Yeah, because they had, they, I think those girls met each other when they were like preteens, maybe.
01:24:26
And then they were together for like eight years. So the fact that they called Kathleen mom makes me a little uncomfortable.
01:24:33
I just, the whole, Michael just seemed like a cult leader to me. And these, these two adopted girls who lost, first they lost their biological father.
01:24:43
Then their mother died in these insane circumstances. they go to and live with this family friend and his wife they divorce yeah the two girls are with
01:24:53
this guy they find this great woman and they're like oh like it's almost this like did michael
01:25:00
tell the adopted daughters to call kathleen mom in a manipulative way because it would make her
01:25:06
want to stick around you know what i mean or is it just that they wanted normalcy right and they
01:25:11
I just were like, okay, great. This is our mom. We're doing this. Like, we're building our own family.
01:25:16
Yeah. And we're going to make this work. Well, the sons called her mom, too, didn't they?
01:25:21
Yes. But. No, they couldn't have. They had their own mom. Like a living mom. They did.
01:25:28
They did. But. That whole dynamic. There's something off about it to me. Well, because in this.
01:25:34
I keep talking about like, it's my pride and joy. in this American justice, there is a part where they are all, and I wonder if the producers of
01:25:43
that show manipulated them, but they're all sitting around looking at like Christmas pictures.
01:25:47
And one of the daughters says, Oh yeah, this is, she loved her stairs. She always had to put her
01:25:53
Christmas decorations. And basically she's talking about the front, like the main house staircase,
01:25:58
which is a photo of them together in her wedding dress on the stairs. Yeah. So creepy. And the,
01:26:03
But basically, it's just her, it's them talking about it like, oh, she loved her stares.
01:26:07
And the way. And it's, but she goes, it's so cute. And it's just like them all trying to act like, we had the best, we had the most perfect life.
01:26:17
We had the most perfect life. They were so in love. It's almost like, I guess in the staircase, the daughters, the adopted daughters feel like they're being paraded to show, to give Michael Peterson sympathy, that he has a family who supports him.
01:26:34
The way they're shown emotionally so much and talked about as, and they speak on camera so like, you know, emotionally that their dad could never do this.
01:26:45
It almost seems like they're being used by him and his side in a way to show to have empathy because he has fucking none.
01:26:54
Well, I mean, they it seems like it's absolutely their choice. So it's what they want to do.
01:27:00
And I feel like they understand the importance of if someone is accused of this terrible crime, especially if they're innocent, which they believe he is, or at least.
01:27:09
But there's no room for them to even grapple with that idea. otherwise. I don't think you could
01:27:15
in that scenario because it would be like, this is like now it's us against them.
01:27:20
There's no room for Gray. I need my dad. What happened? I need my dad to not have done this.
01:27:27
Could you imagine? Because then if he did that, it opens the door to their own mother.
01:27:33
They fucking end up okaying their own mother, their biological mother, Elizabeth Ratliff, being
01:27:39
fucking exhumed. Yes. And they think it's going to prove him innocent. Right. And instead, instead, her cause of death gets changed to homicide.
01:27:47
Yes, because they see those fucking lacerations and it's all mirror image. But instead, everyone is against Michael Peterson.
01:27:56
And that's the that's their that's his narrative is instead they're against him.
01:28:01
Right. And they're making this stuff up, which maybe it's true because this fucking blood analyst was making shit up.
01:28:09
I mean, that's the nothing is simple. That asshole. Nothing is simple and nothing is ever all one way of these are the good guys and these are the bad guys.
01:28:18
Ever. I have room for the fact that I could be totally fucking wrong about all of this and he might be innocent.
01:28:22
A hundred percent. I am not. I will never be like, not never, but there's room for that.
01:28:29
Yes, there is. This is just how this seems based on the information that I've been able to find.
01:28:34
And the vibes. And the vibes. It's that vibe. That's the thing that drives me the craziest is I just want to go.
01:28:40
You don't think you're convincing me of all people because I don't buy your dumb pipe bullshit.
01:28:45
Those eyebrows in that pipe are not fooling me. And also it's just I'm like, I'm a connoisseur of good acting.
01:28:51
And this is not good acting at all. And why are you acting to begin with? Yes. Good or bad?
01:28:59
It's like you can still tell acting whether it's good or bad. Why are you bothering?
01:29:03
The thing that we both named, the thing that I played a recording of is it's terrible acting.
01:29:09
It is inappropriate. It's the there is absolutely nothing genuine about it whatsoever.
01:29:15
It is as rehearsed. It's like bad community theater. It's the first time of him speaking to the media, too.
01:29:21
And he thinks that's what's going to make them get on his side. Yes. Because he doesn't understand basic human emotions, such as if you're crying and you are freaking out about what's going on, people are on your side because they're like, that's a real emotion.
01:29:37
Right. That's how he's real. And now I can hear the people that would argue of like, nobody grieves the same.
01:29:42
Right. That's not grieving. He was in a position that nobody could anticipate or imagine.
01:29:47
Well, then why do they have a prepared corny ass fucking statement? Exactly right.
01:29:51
He not this isn like they they trapped him on the street and forced him to give a statement This was him breaking his silence to the press and giving a an official statement about these are the words he thought would work yes so
01:30:05
fuck you yes it's so crazy and now i told you that the the way i realized he was he was guilty tell me
01:30:16
i had been watching it was the last season of breaking bad i'm pretty sure it was last season
01:30:23
and it was right at the end where everything's going crazy and Walt keeps having to leave and
01:30:28
then he comes back to the family and you know his wife's like what the fuck and he was always lying
01:30:34
and there was a part where he is trying to you know the thing where he would always make breakfast so
01:30:39
he was trying to make breakfast and look I'm making breakfast pancakes everybody normalcy
01:30:43
and he is as um I think either his son or his wife are trying to talk to him and he's opening
01:30:49
these drawers and kind of going what no yes of course and like keeps fucking with the cupboards
01:30:54
and doing stuff while answering questions and like trying to pretend to think but then doing
01:30:59
stuff with the cupboards there is an almost exact scene in the staircase where michael peterson is
01:31:04
in the kitchen and they're like asking him some really kind of crucial you know things and he is
01:31:12
doing waltz exactly from breaking bad where it's like it it was such a mirror thing where i was
01:31:18
like, whoa, he's totally lying. It was like the exact same thing. Did Jonathan Cranston watch that? I wonder. Brian Cranston. That's what I meant. Brian
01:31:27
Cranston watched that. Did Jonathan Overholt watch it? Listen, there's a Jonathan Cranston
01:31:32
out there. I bet you anything. You went to high school with him. You loved him. Great
01:31:35
guy. Now you want to know if you watched Breaking Bad. I bought meth from him. That's fucking
01:31:41
crazy. I know. I just got this weird chill where I was like, oh, Brian Cranston made that
01:31:47
acting choice because that's what it looks like when you lie. And when you're trying to make it
01:31:52
seem casual and to give yourself time to answer because you look like you're focused on something
01:31:58
else and you're not. I'm so distracted by pancake batter bowls. Wait, what? I'm in the middle of a...
01:32:03
What's that? Yes. It's like the weirdest. And for me, I was like, that's it. It's over. If I was on
01:32:10
the jury i'd be like full on full on death penalty well at the end of my american justice your
01:32:19
favorite my favorite american favorite hour of tv show ever um thank you bo curtis for
01:32:25
your service to us as uh true crime listeners and watchers you don't know how much you mean to us
01:32:32
does he bill curtis do you think he does oh yeah no he know yeah i don't know i don't think he could
01:32:41
possibly understand how much we love him yeah as a remember in the very beginning the very first
01:32:49
live show we did uh was that show in chicago that was for the podcast festival and they knew bill
01:32:55
curtis somebody said that they might be able to get us a bill curtis walk-on and we were like
01:33:00
oh my god it was like we were so excited for so long but bill curtis our lord and savior he was
01:33:06
he was busy anyhow at the end of this american justice my television show that i produce um
01:33:13
there's a jailhouse interview with michael peterson and in it he says i'm in in here i'm
01:33:20
as free as i would be out there and to me that's that thing of like the truly psychotic where he's
01:33:29
basically saying you haven't gotten me yeah like you you can do anything you want but you haven't
01:33:34
gotten me it's also like this this system is so messed up outside of here like the government and
01:33:39
your life and stuff it's the same as in here when really instead of being like i'm in here because
01:33:43
i killed my wife right or i'm in here because of a huge miscarriage of justice please do something
01:33:49
like he's okay with it i'm innocent i'm innocent i'm i didn't kill her none of that's happening
01:33:56
He's like, look what your life. He basically is trying to say some bullshit theory of like, you know, you whether your life is heaven or hell, it's all in your mind.
01:34:06
And he's like at peace with it. He's yes, basically. He goes, I'm not saying I like jail, obviously, but like and but it's this thing where to me, it's what it is about Michael Peterson, which is to me what's fascinating about killers and psychopaths and all those people where they have.
01:34:26
They have to do it. They have to win. They can't not say that thing. So even if it's going to make them look even guiltier, that's his MO.
01:34:35
That's his goal. He has to tell you. You didn't get me. Yes, I'm wearing this jail outfit.
01:34:40
Yes, I'm in here. But no, I'm actually free. Right. So, you know, too bad. Or almost this, like, he thinks of himself as this beautiful miscarriage of justice.
01:34:49
Yeah. And this, like. He's a martyr. He's a martyr. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, dude, this isn't that your wife is dead.
01:34:57
Right. There's no there's no talk of her. Yeah. Oy vey. I know. I know. But that American Justice was made in like 2004 or 2005.
01:35:10
So they had no idea that this story continues for quite some time after. Well, that's what's funny about this.
01:35:16
This novel idea episode of Forensic Files, which you can watch on YouTube, is that I think
01:35:22
that they get so of course it's before we find out all of these issues around it and our friend
01:35:29
dirty dwayne is in it like being interviewed as the guy who solved the case yes and so that's
01:35:36
problematic but i think really if you ignore that i think that that episode gets it correct
01:35:42
the whole thing is correct it's just that the shit that happens afterwards is problematic
01:35:47
So it's so funny that this like dated forensic files without the, you know, fucking addendums and shit.
01:35:55
Yeah. I think it's correct. I do too. I mean... But it does it really well to show you exactly why he's guilty.
01:36:03
And then so much shit comes out later. That whole thing was like, what is real? Nothing.
01:36:11
I mean, blood spatter evidence experts are fraudulent to the core where it's not even a real thing.
01:36:19
Yeah, you can't even rely on them. Who can you rely on? Whoever the other person is that's made up their specialty of like, no, no, no, I did this in my basement.
01:36:27
Don't worry. I tested it out on myself. We had a great time. Here's the video. We laughed.
01:36:33
We loved. Well, shit, that's fucking Michael. The murder of Kathleen Peterson by Michael Peterson.
01:36:42
And in Stephen's timeline that I was reading off of, he said that those French documentarians have another as yet to be released as of December 2017.
01:36:52
But they have a third. Yeah, they're working on a third documentary because he was released this year.
01:36:58
Yeah, so he did an Alfred plea, which we know from the West Memphis Three basically says that you know that the state has enough to convict you.
01:37:09
So you're agreeing that they have enough to convict you, but you're still saying you're not guilty.
01:37:15
Yeah, you're not pleading guilty. Right. Yeah. So he's out now. Yeah, he had a time served situation.
01:37:22
Right. Which we don't need to get into. All right. Bye. No, no, no, no. I just mean like he served 86 months.
01:37:32
And so now he and it's concurrent with them. Yeah. All of the the way he gets out and gets bonds and in between shit and all that.
01:37:42
Him going in and out of jails like imagine if that was a black man. Oh, how you would have never seen that person again.
01:37:49
Yeah. That the way this keeps just getting entertained, because this does happen to other people when it's like, oh, yeah, there's all of this has to get thrown out.
01:37:58
and they don't immediately throw up a bond and like, hey, let's get this person out of there.
01:38:03
Hey, this blood spatter and Alice has lied in 34 cases. I bet he's lied in these other ones as well.
01:38:10
No, it doesn't turn around like that. It doesn't at all. I wonder what Christmas is like with fucking
01:38:15
Michael Peterson. What do you think this Christmas is going to be like for everyone?
01:38:20
So the second addendum French documentary, The Staircase 2, do electric boogaloo um i have to say it every time uh in that one one of the daughters i kind
01:38:35
of like that we're not naming their names because i feel like they are they let them live their
01:38:40
lives and also just they're they're really kind of the subject of this documentary it's like they're
01:38:45
it's so much pain for them yeah it's been so horrible for them all the whole way i almost
01:38:51
want to go like if you need to fight and believe that please do that because yes because it just
01:38:58
sucks that their other sister is on the other side you know that they're fighting the part two
01:39:04
one of the sisters no longer is speaking out for michael peterson okay uh well the the daughter
01:39:13
Caitlin, Kathleen's actual biological daughter, said that when she saw the autopsy, there's
01:39:23
like this beautiful quote by her that's somewhere here. It says, the only thing I have to say is that about the trial and all the subsequent fallout
01:39:32
is that if there was any closure to possibly come from all of this, it came after sitting
01:39:36
through the entire trial and listening day after day to all the evidence on both sides.
01:39:41
And after the closing arguments, when all was said and done, I felt confident that I knew what happened.
01:39:46
I knew what happened to my mom. While there's no true closure that can ever come from an event like this for a loss this deep, I was ready to walk away and start moving forward with my life.
01:39:55
And that's Caitlin thinking that Michael Peterson killed her mother. Right. Yeah.
01:40:02
So sad. And not feeling caught up that her stepfather was also being persecuted.
01:40:09
Right. She just was kind of like, yeah, I see this. Yeah. It's just awful. It is.
01:40:16
It's intense. I'm glad we did it together. Yeah. Okay, we're back. Yeah. Karen, do you want to read us the updates?
01:40:28
I will do the updates for this part of the story. Okay. So Michael Peterson sold the house that Kathleen died in.
01:40:35
He still lives in Durham. He lived with his ex Patricia for two years she unfortunately died of a heart attack He now lives in a ground floor apartment Why is that information about Well because it a ground floor apartment with no stairs
01:40:49
And it's an important accommodation, according to his defense attorney, David Rudolph,
01:40:54
who we have spoken to on this show. And he talked about that at his recent crime con experience,
01:40:59
that that was a stipulation of where Michael Peterson was supposed to live. That's so fucked up.
01:41:04
It's really weird, but it's also that thing where, I mean, we've talked about it, but the idea that in this story, when it comes to light, that an accident happened in Germany where she was there and another woman died by falling down the stairs.
01:41:17
That doesn't happen once in someone's life, let alone twice. I feel like the judgmental part of me is just like, we're done here.
01:41:25
Yeah. And it's kind of a satisfying thing. No, that's the logical part of you, not the judgmental part of you.
01:41:29
Right? It is. What I don't understand is how you haven't watched the fucking 2022 HBO Max miniseries.
01:41:37
I didn't do the scripted version. I know. It's really good. It's Toni Collette and you knew this already.
01:41:42
Colin Firth. Colin Firth. They're both so incredible. Yeah. There is a really upsetting sex scene in it that I won't tell you about.
01:41:50
Well, I'm sold. You have to watch it. Okay. It's like... You should have said that first.
01:41:55
It's like a weird thing that you're like, how did they get these actors to do that?
01:42:00
Because I would have been like, I'm out. Oh, actors love stuff like that. It's like, I'll tell you after this.
01:42:05
Okay. I won't say it. Ooh. Okay. Well, now it's time to get into good things of the week, a thing we used to do on this show.
01:42:12
We used to have good things to talk about. We used to force ourselves to really silver lining this thing.
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01:44:25
Should we say what we're happy about this week? Go for it. Should we, should it be like something boring or should it be like, thanks everyone?
01:44:35
Definitely boring. Tried to do in a very flat voice. Well, I was just thinking about how different both of our lives were before we started this podcast.
01:44:45
or when we started this podcast and when we kind of came together at the Halloween party
01:44:49
and I lied about having watched The Staircase because it sounded right. And just how grateful I am by this podcast and the listeners and the community.
01:45:00
And I mean, I was kind of in a rough, I think we were both kind of in different reasons
01:45:05
and rough points of our lives and going through some of our own shit. And this podcast has changed that completely and made my life into this beautiful fucking thing
01:45:14
that I so happy for and grateful for And you know if all we ever do is 100 episodes this has been one of the highlights of my life for real like one i it feels like a dream it so true it been insane i love you very much
01:45:34
i love you too karen and i love that you thought to do this and made me come to your house to do it
01:45:41
i love that you said okay uh but it was one of those things where it was just like in starting
01:45:46
to do it, it was just like, oh yeah, this is like, even if it's just for us, it's so
01:45:53
much fun. That conversation we just had about the staircase, even when we were arguing about certain things
01:45:57
was so much fun. That's all I want to do. I know it's the best. It's so much fun.
01:46:01
But also because, and sometimes it's been, I will say this, I'm, I totally agree.
01:46:07
And every, I mean, that's part of, part of the fun for me has been this experience of
01:46:13
basically kind of standing in the center of an explosion with you and, and getting through it
01:46:20
with you and like truly growing with you, I feel like. Um, but there have been times where, you
01:46:26
know, we, when we started out, we said whatever the fuck we wanted because we were just in your
01:46:31
house. And then, you know, of course, then we went through like a teenage phase where we got
01:46:36
super self-conscious because people started going, you're saying this word wrong and you're doing
01:46:40
not wrong and you have the wrong thoughts and you have the wrong ideas. And we're like, you have to do this right.
01:46:44
Yes. And then we got real worried about what if we lose people or what if we, you know, and
01:46:49
there's just all, it's like the natural growth process. Yeah. And now, so that conversation we just had felt so much more like one of the first episodes
01:46:58
because of course, in my mind, I'm going, we can't say that. That's liable. That's whatever we're talking.
01:47:04
We're putting words in someone's mouth. But overall, that's the point of this podcast.
01:47:08
and I said this at the Kansas City show, I believe, was we're not trying to be 48 hours.
01:47:16
We're sitting on the couch watching 48 hours, talking about 48 hours to each other.
01:47:21
Yeah. And we've never wanted to be broad, you know, professional broadcasters or,
01:47:26
or newscasters or anything. We just want to talk about the thing that freaks us out so much
01:47:31
and fascinates us so much. And we're sitting in this room, this loft, pod loft, surrounded by art made by these incredible people who we have somehow fucking touched in a way.
01:47:47
Well, because we have so much in common with them. Right. And I'm just honored. I'm honored and I'm amazed.
01:47:52
And thank you, Stephen, too, for being here. Yeah. It's just, I feel really lucky.
01:47:57
We are two of the luckiest people. I can't believe it. For sure. Yeah. and uh and we're filled with ice cream cake oh my god i mean and uh for all you guys that have been
01:48:10
you know one of my favorite favorite things is it's sometimes when we meet people at shows um
01:48:15
and they say i've been listening since the beginning and then i'll go oh you have since
01:48:19
the first one and they'll go oh well no i mean like i came out in episode five yeah and on that
01:48:24
on the last time we were out someone said that and i go from the beginning and she goes day one
01:48:29
I found you. Remember that girl that told us the story? She said, sorry, I don't remember your name,
01:48:33
but she said, I opened it. I was in a bad mood. I opened up my, um, you know, iTunes podcast,
01:48:39
saw the thing and was like, that seems interesting and clicked on it. Yeah. And she was like, at first I hated your voices.
01:48:46
That's the other thing. She said, at first I thought you were both annoying or something.
01:48:49
And then I kept listening and I loved it and I couldn't stop listening. Yeah, it is cool. And we read all of the notes and all of the messages on Twitter and all. I mean,
01:48:57
it's just it doesn't it doesn't make any sense my mind is fucking blown yeah we're both you guys
01:49:04
have changed our lives thank you so fucking much we love it we love it we love you 100 episodes
01:49:10
so fun thank you for being here with us yeah we're very grateful yeah it's so funny like 100 episodes 100 episodes and we kind of thought that was it we were peeking i
01:49:25
I mean, I was ready to peak and be done for sure. So true. I got my pod loft. I moved into a nicer apartment.
01:49:31
I mean, what else do I mean? What more could we want? Know what I had? Air conditioning.
01:49:36
Yeah. And I was out of foreclosure. That's right. And that's all that mattered to me.
01:49:40
We made it. We did. And then we got greedy. We made it. And then we got up out of the hole and we said, hey, it's nice up here.
01:49:47
We should keep on striving for more. Yeah. And we deserve it. We're good at this.
01:49:53
Okay. Here's. Wait. I just have to bring back up how hilarious it is that that told us they were listening since the very first episode They hated our voices at first but then they got used to it is the it the ultimate example of what it like to have a podcast where someone telling you they love you insulting you as much as they
01:50:14
can. Or they'll say, my mom hates you guys, but I love you. Yeah. Hey, look. My mom hates me too.
01:50:20
Listen. Look and listen. Okay. Well, we can't name this episode the 100th episode.
01:50:28
We have to name it something more interesting. Yes. And thank God there's so many choices. For example, you saying 99 episodes worth of things when you're talking about how much you've forgotten, which is so real on this experience.
01:50:40
And I wasn't even in perimenopause yet. That's right. Dessert for dinner. Yes. Needs to be.
01:50:46
Yeah. That was my reward to you. Also, Judith from HR, which is when we had our headsets on.
01:50:51
Yeah. AMS ASAP. You got close. Yeah. Oh, this is it. The Staircase to Electric Boogaloo.
01:50:58
Talking about part two. We did that a lot. Had to. How about our friend Dirty Dwayne?
01:51:02
Yeah. Dirty Dwayne. That guy's so legendary. Blood splatter expert. Actually, false.
01:51:08
Yeah. To be revealed later that there's no such thing. Dirty Dwayne, man. All right.
01:51:14
But then there's one more surprise, apparently. That's right. There's a sweet treat.
01:51:18
If we get dessert for dinner. Okay. Molly's bringing it in. What'd you get us? What is this?
01:51:25
Ice cream cake. Oh, my God. With your faces on it. yes okay molly just came into the studio with the cutest little cake and it's got a photo from
01:51:38
my old apartment me and karen on the couch got my legs up and my month six here probably
01:51:46
those feet blur out the here i'm gonna blur out the feet you don't get free feet that's right
01:51:52
those are worth a lot of money on feet.com wow that's beautiful molly thank you so much thank
01:51:58
you thank you steven for uh oh no i took this picture your selfie yeah it's a selfie oh god
01:52:05
there it is there it is all right we've really done it let's yeah should we cut it yeah let's
01:52:10
do it how do you want to cut it cut my head off oh yeah cut my i don't know cut your feet off
01:52:16
straight down the middle yeah okay cut ice cream cake so hard so dangerous is it gorgonzola cherry
01:52:23
flavor? You bet. It's actually, and thank you to Corey, our set decorator as well.
01:52:29
It's chocolate cake with cookies and cream ice cream. Oh, that's slutty. I love it.
01:52:36
Are you kidding me? Eat your own face. Eat your own face. Cheers. The ultimate act of narcissism.
01:52:47
Eating your own face. Well, that is this week's episode of Rewind. It's the 100th
01:52:53
episode, we've rewound. We're going to go back to a better time to say goodbye when Elvis was still
01:52:59
alive. Yeah. And we'll let him say goodbye from 2017. We want you to stay sexy. And we also want
01:53:08
you to don't get murdered. Bye. Elvis, want cookie? This episode is brought to you in part by Vital
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01:53:45
Goodbye. Bye. Hey, did you know Dietz & Watson has been family-owned for over 85 years?
01:53:51
To us, that means it's more than a business. It's personal. We make our premium meats and cheeses the right way,
01:53:57
even if it's slower or inconvenient or hard, because that's how you get the highest quality.
01:54:02
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So if you see the Dietz & Watson name, you'll know every slice has my family's seal of approval.
01:54:12
Deetson Watson, it's a family thing since 1939. Sundays at 9 exclusively on AMC and AMC Plus.
01:54:45
Stream now.