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Terms and conditions apply. See pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
00:02:09
This is a show where we step into the past through our old episodes and emerge from the other side with brand new feelings and case updates.
00:02:16
I love that. Today we're rewinding to episode 101, which we named Live at the Majestic Theater in Dallas.
00:02:24
The creativity never ends. This episode originally came out on December 28th, 2017.
00:02:32
A million years ago. Just to go back for one moment. Oh, my God. Let's listen to the intro of episode 101.
00:02:52
What's up, Dallas? Wow Pretty sure I saw a UFO up there Yeah Did you see that? Uh-huh
00:03:06
It's an assortment of lights A lot going on There's so much Oh my god That's so exciting
00:03:14
This is our third and best show in Dallas Yes Oh I ruined it. My pocket's out. I ruined it. It's no longer the best show. Let's start over. God damn it.
00:03:30
Take it from the top. This shirt needs to be burned. Let's just say that. Yeah. I didn't even give a Passover.
00:03:41
No, I love it. There's hair. There's the tears and sweat of others and myself combined.
00:03:49
I realized today that all the clothes I brought to Texas smell like barbecue. And I haven't even been in a barbecue restaurant.
00:04:02
It's not like I've been in a restaurant. It's all eating things backstage and in the hotel room.
00:04:09
Yeah. And yet... And also, where was the picture that you sent me today? I sent her a photo of a trough of mac and cheese.
00:04:18
Close up. Very close up. It was a close up. That was actually just Whole Foods, but I...
00:04:25
Oh. I don't... I just thought it would be a good photo. Because we didn't, like, text that morning.
00:04:30
We hadn't texted all day. So I was like, this will be a funny thing just to send someone randomly.
00:04:34
But then after that, fuck you guys. Okay. Did you just say fuck you guys to Dallas?
00:04:41
That's crazy. They will get so mad at you. No. No. Fuck, comma. You guys. Okay. No, because, alright, I love LA.
00:04:52
However, if I had to move somewhere, it would be a place that has really fucking good barbecue in a gas station.
00:05:01
Would that gas station be our friend Bucky's gas station? Yeah, that's right. We know the lingo now.
00:05:09
We can fucking speak your language. Yep. Bucky Nuggets, 1,000. Yeah. I ate those too today.
00:05:19
So good. How can you not? I mean, it's like cotton candy in your mouth. But beavers.
00:05:26
But beavers. Don't. Stop it. This is supposed to be the best show. Was it really at the gas station?
00:05:35
Yeah, there's a fucking just whatever gas station. And then there's a barbecue place and a drive-thru.
00:05:42
In the gas station. And it was like really good barbecue. Were you still asleep?
00:05:47
No. And then I took it back to the hotel room and sat and ate barbecue in the hotel room.
00:05:52
Yeah. And while Vince watched football And I was just like this is my life The fucking life This is the life Free glass of ros from the downstairs hotel area Oh did you go mingle No I fucking grabbed a glass of wine and went upstairs
00:06:08
To eat my barbecue in peace. You're like, do you have any pitchers or large containers?
00:06:13
Maybe a flower vase that I could take with me. I don't want to mix with these people.
00:06:18
Vince did really disappoint me in our marriage, though, because... Oh, no. And like this is you know, he's amazing, but I went to the they're like they pour you a glass
00:06:28
Don't like rosé it's like two to six rosé hour or whatever the fuck And then the guy goes to pour two glasses and he goes oh no just one I don't want one
00:06:35
And I was like no dude you get a second glass for me Team playing Yeah At all times
00:06:42
But it probably was a sign of you're drinking too much Do you think he was quietly judging you?
00:06:47
No he wouldn't do that Now with counterpoint, Vince you just just talk massive shit on him and then i like hand the microphone over
00:06:57
well that's interesting i have nothing to say about it maybe vince does why is he on the ground um there he is he's down in the he's down in the little opera spot where
00:07:08
you can call for your line down on the old this is an old theater reference i'm making only certain
00:07:13
people understand. Want to know what I did? Yes. I got a massage. Oh, I know. In the hotel. Fancy,
00:07:26
right? That's amazing. It's so much easier to communicate with you when we have a crab-like
00:07:31
clasp on each other. The intensity of that. Yes. It's a conduit. So I called down. I looked.
00:07:42
This is brilliant. If you have a business that has you offer two things that don't go together, put them on the same menu.
00:07:50
Because as I was ordering breakfast, I was like, oh, massages. It was right fucking there, which I've never seen before.
00:07:57
And you're so smart. I was like, I want oatmeal. Oh, and I want someone to rub my back.
00:08:03
And in this place, they have four hand massage, which means two people massage you at one time.
00:08:11
I feel like that's a creepy way to say that. Forehand massage. What isn't a creepy way to explain what that might be?
00:08:21
I feel like, hey, two people massage you at the same time. Okay. Four hands from who knows where.
00:08:28
Coming up out of the walls, in the ground. They're all strangely silver and gray.
00:08:35
Don't worry about it. You're face down. Yeah. What species of hand are we talking about?
00:08:41
but two people oh interesting you say that monkey hands that's when you read the small print monkey
00:08:48
and raccoon hands so one's too small and one's too strong and could kill you that'd be pretty cute
00:08:55
that would be sweet until you die right right i am so catholic i could not order the four hand
00:09:04
massage. I was like, that's not right. I can't, I can't ask for that. That's too much enjoyment in
00:09:12
this life. Who am I? I think that's the perfect way though to like treat yourself without guilt is
00:09:18
always have one thing that's too much. So like, even if you want like, well, I'm not going to get
00:09:22
a Lexus. I'll just get a, what's one step down from Lexus? Oh, clearly it's, it's a Dodge Charger.
00:09:28
Yes, but what you really wanted was the Dodge Charger to begin with. Oh, you've inside your mind you're doing all of this?
00:09:37
You took to someone on the street. To yourself. Okay. Writing it on paper or just this is a mental situation?
00:09:43
You have your Jewish friend tell you that you're worth it and you deserve it. Come on.
00:09:48
Because that's how we are. That's our new thing. That's our new campaign. Everyone get a Jewish friend.
00:09:54
Because she'll say, you know, I think I can justify any purchase for anyone in a way that makes you, like, proud.
00:10:05
Like, yeah, you're right. I should get that little exit. I don't know. Right. I should get a raccoon paw massage.
00:10:12
I deserve raccoons. I do deserve this. She's right. I work hard. Imagine, because you've seen raccoons wash their food, right?
00:10:20
It's so thorough and fast. The little, they do that? But it's on your shoulder. And they stare at you.
00:10:31
Did I ever tell you about that time? I thought this was right before I got my dog, George.
00:10:35
And I was here. I was by myself in my house. And I would hear shit every night. And just be like, here we go.
00:10:41
This is it. I knew it. Here we go. Every fucking night. That's when I started sleeping in front of the TV.
00:10:47
Because anytime I would go into my bed, there would be some weird noise. I'd be like, great.
00:10:54
Dead. I had that party tomorrow, but now I'm gonna be murdered So But I always knew I was you know that it was probably just all that shit
00:11:04
They say the house settling or a man living in your attic or whatever The things people tell you yeah
00:11:12
But this one night I hear a sound that I swear to God this sound what I pictured in my mind when I heard it
00:11:18
was someone threw an old-fashioned word processor against the back wall of my house.
00:11:24
I don't know why, but that's exactly what it sounded like. Like a huge crash? A crash with plastic involved?
00:11:32
Like an outdated electronic machine crash. It was like one of the guys from Office Space.
00:11:38
Instead of this, they were like this. It was that feel. That's scary. It fucking scared the shit out of me, right?
00:11:44
So, I go to check and we used to have a cat. I never talk about him. His name is Angus.
00:11:54
Don mention it to me My cat Angus who was feral awful long hair which is the fucking worst in a pet of any breed
00:12:09
mean, I watched him almost scratch out, I've told you that story where he's hiding,
00:12:14
there was like something leaned against the wall, and my 18-month-old niece went and was like,
00:12:19
let's stay over here, and right as she leaned down, the cat paw was like this with all nails out toward face yeah and that's what pete ran and
00:12:29
just picked her up really fast so it was oh it was like one of those like it was a matrixy
00:12:34
this but she wasn't leaning it was just guys anyway i can't remember the story i was telling
00:12:41
oh because so we had this built-in cat door oh no don't do that right so in my mind i'm like well
00:12:49
someone with the longest arm ever reached through it and is like... That's already what I was thinking.
00:12:53
Was it? Yes. Someone with a long arm could just come and unlock it. The long arm bandit.
00:13:00
It's coming. It's a raccoon that grew up near a nuclear test facility. Aww. Aww.
00:13:09
It's not his fault. He has those long arms. One long arm. Just the one. Just the one.
00:13:15
So he has a crazy limp. Yeah. And the fastest hands. Okay, so I get over there. And of course I think it's someone trying to like physically break into the back door.
00:13:27
And when I get to the back door, I flip the porch light on. And there's a raccoon who is just coming back out of the cat door.
00:13:35
So like he had gone, he had gone, I think halfway into it and then come back out really fast.
00:13:42
He must have heard a noise or something. And so when I'm standing there, I flick the light on.
00:13:46
and the raccoon is like trying to figure out a way to go back like re-approach it
00:13:50
and when the light flicks on he goes like this he goes and then just fucking stares me down like oh you're up and yeah like we i thought you were away
00:14:06
he's like staring at me and so i kick the door because of course at this point i'm so angry and
00:14:14
scared I'd feel so stupid that that asshole was who I thought was gonna murder me. So I kick the
00:14:20
door so he'll go away and he just goes like this. He pulls his little hands and he sits back on his
00:14:27
honchoes like okay lady let's take it easy. He's like huh okay that's a stride that's one.
00:14:35
She's not gonna let me have the garbage. I'm gonna have to get it a different way.
00:14:39
I want a raccoon. You want a raccoon? I'm so mad. You want your own raccoon? I do.
00:14:45
Yeah. Short arms or long arms? Surprise me. Okay. Christmas is right around the corner, everybody.
00:14:54
So is Hanukkah. Hey! Shit. That's why you need a Jewish friend. You never think about Hanukkah.
00:15:01
Hanukkah's sooner. It's more pressing. Get your Hanukkah shopping done now, Texas.
00:15:09
This is my favorite murder. This is murder the podcast That's Karen Kilgara, this is Georgia Hart Stark
00:15:22
Can we tell real quick we've had some Wardrobe issues. Oh, yeah. Oh, I thought you're pointing at our feet. No, no, I'm just now I'm just doing things with my body
00:15:32
I'm not I'm so I don't know what's going on anymore I'm so tired and last night somebody posted a great picture from the show
00:15:41
Which was very sweet and they people love to show us pictures of ourselves. I personally resent it, but I understand
00:15:48
I understand it's not about me and whoever it was. It was somebody that was up in this balcony
00:15:58
Is that the Queen of Spain they're right there that's so funny Hi, um, they might have been up one or is there no it's just that one
00:16:09
It seemed very high it could have been a bird's picture. I'm not sure but my I didn't dye my roots before I left for this trip because I was like
00:16:19
They're just sticking out a little bit right there. I look like I'm balding just on my part
00:16:25
Just tons of hair everywhere else, but then that's sad just only on the part. It's like fucking... I don't...
00:16:35
This is why you're not on Instagram and shouldn't be. It's just... you just are like, there's that problem area.
00:16:41
What about the time we were in Australia and I showed Georgia a picture of myself and I was like...
00:16:45
Because she's always like, can we take a picture? And I'm like, no! I stopped asking. She had to. She had to. This is how we work stuff out.
00:16:56
Let's hold up this thing, it'll be so cute. We'll put it on here. Let's take a photo of this. No.
00:17:00
Never so cute. Not so cute. I'm almost 50. I shouldn't be here. What do you mean by here?
00:17:10
On Earth. No, no, that's not true. What a great time we're all having. I took this picture of myself and because I was facing the window and it was like morning light,
00:17:22
There was this odd combination of things where it actually was this fucking majestic picture of me that I ran next door to your hotel room
00:17:30
And I was like, oh my god, look, I actually took a good picture I was like, it was really weird. My hair was back and I didn't have any makeup on but it like somehow worked and Georgia goes
00:17:38
Amazing and then she goes like this and goes And puts all these filters on it and then it looked fucking incredible and I go, what did you just do?
00:17:47
And she's like, you don't know about filters? That's why I don't like Instagram.
00:17:54
I didn like Instagram is because I didn know everyone fucking cheating on there all the time Oh yeah We all cheating My cats are cheating Everything is cheating
00:18:05
I didn't know. The fucking sunset? You're like, oh, I guess I didn't see that sunset tonight.
00:18:10
It's because it didn't look like that. Even that? Some fucking asshole put a bunch of filters on it.
00:18:15
You mean all those gorgeous dinners that people have been taking pictures of? Have you seen unfiltered food?
00:18:21
No. Everyone, no post photos of food unless you know how to filter the shit out of those things.
00:18:27
What a revelation. I'm just saying that for the other people in the crowd who might not know that you can fix your fucking face.
00:18:34
It's such good news. It's such good news. Oh, it's also, yeah. Thank God. Should we sit down?
00:18:42
Yeah, we really should. Let's give these, we're never going to have chairs like these again.
00:18:49
Let's give them a moment to shine. This chair was made when Robert Wadlow, the tallest man in the world, got an office job at IBM.
00:19:03
And he demanded an ergonomic chair to sit in. You know, for when you want to pretend like you work in a giant office.
00:19:12
Yep. And there you go. Who made this? I've never in my life. I mean... Yeah, it's...
00:19:22
Okay, so then we climb in. Yeah. All aboard! All right. You got it. You got it. And now the pull-in.
00:19:42
Okay. And that's how you sit down. Oh, and... America. Just real quick. Karen, last night at the second show,
00:19:54
the hometown was just like someone's mom, which was like always fun. I'm here with my 15-year-old daughter.
00:20:00
She was like the cutest thing. The best. The best, cutest. We always thought moms were mad at us.
00:20:04
They're not. It's such good news. She was a Bible teacher in prison, and she's like,
00:20:09
and then I found out what one of my favorite students did, and it was bad. She was the one who, it was the girl,
00:20:16
who hit the homeless man on the freeway. He got stuck in her windshield and she drove home with him.
00:20:22
Remember that whole story? She taught her the Bible. Too late. Right? Yeah. You need to skip straight to the fucking repent part
00:20:33
because you're done. Yeah. You're done. No. So Karen stole her red flag. She came up and she was like, we made these.
00:20:44
And I was like, well, that's mine now. Fine. I was like, you can make another one, right? Because I can't. So thank you.
00:20:53
Oh, put it in your water. Oh, it's a straw. And we are back. Hello. We're back here in good old 2026.
00:21:08
The thing I was talking about at the beginning of that, where I see a UFO. Do you remember the inside of that theater?
00:21:14
Yeah. So it was like, it went up so high. Because didn't the ceiling retract and it could be an indoor-outdoor theater?
00:21:21
So I think it just looked like there were almost like opera boxes that they went up 10 stories or something.
00:21:27
It was like fancy. It was big and it was fancy. Yeah. I thought they were going to kick us out, but no.
00:21:33
No. They wanted us there. They did. Yeah. This is the same place, and I think we've talked about it before, where the driver picked up the wrong two girls at the hotel.
00:21:42
our driver who was supposed to pick us up and take us to the venue these two girls were standing
00:21:45
outside these two like girls who are going to the show yeah and he so he says to them like oh you
00:21:50
guys must you know get in i'll take you yeah you're going over to the show yeah it's like hell
00:21:55
yeah and then halfway there they're like wait so good we're not caring i mean that's my favorite
00:22:02
the best misunderstanding did we how did we meet them was it because we were still standing there
00:22:06
waiting we were like where the fuck are they and they get out cracking up they clearly had a couple
00:22:10
drinks already. They were just delightful and so funny. That's so. Also, there were so many of those
00:22:17
Texas shows that I remember because stuff like that, it just felt like there was more.
00:22:23
I shouldn't compare it. We always have amazing experiences, but for some reason, it's always
00:22:27
just like, wait, what is happening? For us coastal elites out here in California, the fact that
00:22:32
Southern people listen to us is still shocking to us. Shocking. It's thrilling. I also love this
00:22:38
where I shame Vince for not saying yes to another glass of wine. To me, that's such a relationship
00:22:44
thing. And he thankfully does it now. But this was almost 10 years ago, and he didn't know yet.
00:22:51
Say yes, and then I pour it into mine. Give it to me. He's probably like, you have to perform tonight. Why don't you not have two glasses of wine?
00:23:01
I just need two small cups, please. Please just let me have them. also oh the forehand massage oh my god the first time i'd ever heard that phrase i still find it
00:23:12
like a really weird way to say i got massaged by two people at the same time yeah just the hands
00:23:17
like did the person have for it i still don't i still can't it was just the hands
00:23:20
which makes me laugh so hard the thing of what kind of hands yeah raccoon hands so cute still
00:23:29
So funny. What else? I've actually, since that time, I have gotten a four-handed massage.
00:23:35
And? It was very presented in a very, like, almost like it was spiritual. And this was like.
00:23:40
Oh, like, what's it called? When they, like, put their energy into that kind of a thing?
00:23:45
Yes. Like. Like a healing. It was a healing. I was at a fancy place. Yeah. And they were, it was a healing vibe.
00:23:52
But it was just almost like, I felt like, for me, it felt like the most efficient way
00:23:56
to get super relaxed as quickly as possible. Yeah. And it didn't feel as kind of like luxurious.
00:24:04
Indulgent. Yeah, and crazy as I was imagining. Well, 2017, Karen, wouldn't do a lot of things that 2026 Karen would do probably.
00:24:13
2017, Karen had just gotten out of... Rehab? Close. Foreclosure. Yeah. Right? I literally, by the skin of my teeth.
00:24:24
Yeah. So there was a lot of things that seemed crazy and indulgent at the time. Like free wine at a hotel.
00:24:30
Yeah. Like we'd say the kind of hotel that was definitely in our era of like, I'll do this, but I've got to stay at a nice hotel.
00:24:36
You got to give me free wine at 4 p.m. or whatever it is that they're going to offer.
00:24:40
A massage or something. I'll take it. Oh, and I just I'm really proud because this is just proof that I've always been talking about the world's tallest man, Robert Wadlow.
00:24:48
Yeah, from the beginning. It's like that thing of like, I like them first, you know.
00:24:52
Yeah. I'm like a stuck up band guy. You stan him? I stan giants and I always have. It's not a new part of my personality. And here's the proof.
00:25:01
Here's the proof. Thank God for this podcast or people would call you a poser when it comes to tall giant people.
00:25:06
Right. The thing that doesn't exist really in our culture anymore that absolutely ruled our culture.
00:25:11
Doesn't it? Well, I mean, that idea of you will not get clout yourself for calling another person a poser.
00:25:17
Right. Oh, I thought you meant giants. That didn't exist anymore. Oh, we've gotten rid of almost all of them.
00:25:23
We've really, what's it called? We worked him out. Yeah. Cycled him out? Cycled him out.
00:25:33
Eugenics. I'm very excited because this story that I told at this live show is one of my favorite true crime stories ever.
00:25:39
Oh my God, that's amazing. Let's get into it. Let's listen to Karen's story about Terry Hoffman.
00:25:44
While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
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The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14. Making plays that end up on everyone's feed, scoring from angles that don't make sense,
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Hyundai has always moved the future within reach. Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle.
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Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.
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Goodbye. Okay. Okay, I'm first this evening. Okay. Okay. Let's do this. This is a true crime comedy podcast It all use All you strangers Thank you strangers Thank you And Stephen not here Sorry Yes
00:30:06
It's so disappointing, I know. He's sending me photos of my cats. And there was one photo that he sent it in.
00:30:13
I said to myself, they look hungry. I'm such an asshole. They look hungry. They look hungry.
00:30:23
She was like, don't they look hungry in this picture? And I was like, mm-hmm. Since they look hungry.
00:30:32
It's hard to tell, he said. Yep, hard to tell. The consummate politician. Well, could be, couldn't be.
00:30:39
Okay, once again, this story, and it seems like we're underwritten by the magazine Texas Monthly,
00:30:47
but we're not, we're not being paid by them in any way. But we get so many amazing stories from them.
00:30:52
For real. it didn't it dawned on me the first night we were here when i was looking up one of my stories
00:31:00
and it there's a lot of people obviously that write for that magazine but there is a guy named
00:31:05
skip hollandsworth that writes tons of great it's always that guy i just found out today
00:31:11
when i was looking at my story and used his also used his information that he wrote a book
00:31:16
what's it about it's about um a serial killer in austin like the first serial killer in austin
00:31:22
Oh, is it the Servant Girl Annihilator? I don't know. I just looked it up on Audible and it's there.
00:31:27
So we're going to... Everyone download it now. Let's blow the Wi-Fi up. Okay, sorry.
00:31:35
So this is another one that I found searching Texas Monthly. Because you can go in.
00:31:39
They have like articles from back in the 80s. It's amazing. Also, somebody has done that thing where they make a Google book out of the old magazine.
00:31:48
So while I was reading the article for this story, there were these ads coming up on the side that were from 1982.
00:31:56
And they were amazing. What were they? It was just a bunch of blonde people being thin and rich all over the Dallas-Fort Worth area.
00:32:06
Just, you know, it was always that one lady with gold earrings and kind of a weird blonde haircut that was like,
00:32:12
I fucking love oil. they just drank oil at that point it was just there's a lot of you know how sometimes it's like
00:32:21
beef it's what for it's what's for dinner there's just there's commercials for things that
00:32:25
it's not a company it's just a concept oh yeah like milk or whatever the yeah yeah milk milk
00:32:31
it's good for your bones okay that tom kenny who was on mystery show with me who's one of
00:32:38
he's also the voice of spongebob yeah one of the most but his biggest his biggest uh
00:32:43
thing was being on with you. That's right. It's what I mentioned first because I'm in it.
00:32:49
But he's so brilliant and hilarious. He used to do this thing in his stand-up act where he
00:32:55
pretended that he was also hired by all those companies like the Milk Board and the Beef
00:33:01
Association or whatever, the Farmers Association. And so he would do alternative jingles for all
00:33:09
of those things and that was like it was like milk it's good for your bones but singing it like a rock star
00:33:14
and he also did one there's a restaurant in LA called Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles
00:33:18
that's amazing and he would go Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles is your chicken and a waffle
00:33:27
connection sidebar nation I don't think you're allowed to do other people's act during your show. He doesn't need it. He's got all that SpongeBob money. Yeah, that's right.
00:33:44
He doesn't even know. But you can just sue me, you rich bastard. Okay. Anyhow, the article I got almost everything from what I'm about to tell you, I'm essentially
00:33:56
rereading you this article and it is so fucking crazy and long that I, it's like, by the end,
00:34:02
I was like scanning, scrolling really fast. I'm like, don't look at the ads. Don't look at the
00:34:07
people that are you know drinking by a window just focus on the article but it was called
00:34:13
the curse of the black lords by peter elkind um there was also an article that i looked at
00:34:19
uh for a magazine called d magazine yes me too did you look at that one i used both of those
00:34:25
magazines too so good um and that article was called the rise and fall of a north dallas cult
00:34:32
by George Rodriguez. And this, my friends, is the story of Terry Hoffman and the Conscious Development Cult.
00:34:42
Cults, cults, cults, cults. This is one of the fucking craziest things I've ever read about.
00:34:50
And I can't wait to read more. Like, I want to read a whole book on this because this is straight up nutso.
00:34:56
And I cannot believe in all the years of all the 2020s and things that we've all been watching for years and years.
00:35:03
I've never seen anything about this. Love it. Nutso. Okay. So, we start now. Yeah, crack that beer because this is going to be long.
00:35:12
Actually, I want to start. I wonder if this is the first picture. I wonder. Let's see.
00:35:20
Huh? Oh. Huh? Okay. It wasn't. Shit. Dang it. Okay, here's how this article starts.
00:35:31
And here, it's such a brilliant way to get into this story. Because it's not at the beginning, which is always a good fucking left turn.
00:35:37
But this is basically how the cops found out about this cult. It's Thanksgiving in 1989.
00:35:44
Put yourself there. I'm there. So much hairspray. Oh my God. All of it is that Aussie, what do you call it, product.
00:35:51
Yeah. That purple hairspray. Got it. It starts with this smell in an East Dallas neighborhood of Lake Highlands They love smells They love the smell
00:36:05
It's so bad that the neighbors call the cops, firemen are the first on the scene,
00:36:10
they kick down the door, take a step into the house, walk back out and throw up on the front lawn.
00:36:16
Ooh, they always do that. Don't take the crime scene. and or here's a tip to killers and bad people walk outside just put that knife right there on
00:36:30
the lawn yeah right in the barfing arc oh yuck so then they have to put on their scott air packs
00:36:38
and which is like the gas masks for yeah for firemen and go into the house the house is filled
00:36:46
with flies. Uh-oh. Clouds of flies. Oh, the red flag so far. If this house wet the bed,
00:36:57
we'd know something bad was happening. In the back of the house, they find former Southern Methodist
00:37:09
University business professor, David Goodman, and his wife, Glenda, both 48. They have both been shot with the gun directly against their skulls
00:37:19
So and they've been dead for over a month You guys mind your business here like nobody's like
00:37:32
So bad yes property I respect it yeah Property something goes down don't worry about it. We're raising flies. That's our choice
00:37:41
It's what we get to do. I bought this property. I paid taxes on it There's a shooting gallery in one corner of the room which is a metal stand with a paper targets
00:37:52
There's guns on the coffee table and there's pellet guns leaned up against a wall
00:37:59
Sounds chill. Yeah It was like a rumpus room Man cave so Also, there is an alarm clock at their feet.
00:38:14
Police and medical examiners conclude it's a murder-suicide or some kind of a consensual double death,
00:38:21
which is the name of my new band. Sorry. Sorry. That's good. No, no, that's not.
00:38:28
That's not. No, no, no, no, no. How's my part up there, you guys? Thanks. Thank you.
00:38:35
So you like scalp? Okay. Okay. So he was an investment advisor who owned his own company. She kept his books.
00:38:49
He'd been married three times. She'd been married once. And friends and family said that they were
00:38:54
deeply in love. They were ecstatic in each other's company, which is the nicest sentence.
00:38:59
No suicide note of any kind. Two dogs had been left in the backyard the whole time,
00:39:06
But they were alive, pacing. Pacing, angry. And the second they ate food, they would forget about everything that happened to them.
00:39:13
Some neighbor was just fucking throwing a handful of kibble over the back. Can you shut the... Like, I just... Yeah.
00:39:18
That's nice. That's a good thought. Right. An angry yet caring neighbor. Yeah, she's not going to let them die.
00:39:24
He's like, here's a pork chop, you stupid shits. Okay. But then police find two handwritten journals,
00:39:32
and they find out that they have been planning their death for months. God told them to do it,
00:39:40
and God's spokesperson was the leader of a spiritual group that they belong to called Conscious Development of Body, Mind, and Soul.
00:39:49
Like, if anyone didn't know that was a cult immediately by that name. Anytime it's like kind of vague words that suggest a slight idea
00:40:00
but won't get specific, get out. Get away. Okay. They had been advised to stay away from family and friends
00:40:11
because of their negative energy. Absolutely. And they also stipulated in their will
00:40:18
that they were giving the leader of conscious development of body, mind, and soul half of all their future earnings,
00:40:25
which must have meant that their company was doing really well, and $100,000, like what they had in the bank,
00:40:32
which was $100,000 and the leader of conscious development of body mind and soul was a woman named Terry Hoffman
00:40:40
Let's take a look. Oh God damn it I saw Steve Hi, I'm crazy That's such a good voice that she sounds like
00:40:56
Hi, eye contact don't look away from my eyes don't look away from my eyes Hi, would you like some juice?
00:41:06
Do you want a forehand massage? I bet you that was like a secret fear somewhere deep inside where it's like, yeah, you're
00:41:26
gonna get on the table and the forehand massage is gonna start boom you're giving someone a hundred
00:41:32
thousand dollars and you're dead you're in a cult you're in a cult and you can't get out and you're
00:41:37
like i love her i love terry and i want a shirt just like hers um boop there we go thank you
00:41:48
Okay so after they find this death reports of patterns of deaths like these in the conscious development group they don call it a cult start up And so police start an investigation that year
00:42:07
and they find out that eight members of this spiritual group had died prematurely, eight.
00:42:13
And three of them were sudden accidents, and five had committed suicide, and two of the suicides had been Terry's husbands.
00:42:23
oh no so they're like it doesn't seem like a coincidence to us um and all of the dead people had named terry hoffman as the sole beneficiary of their estates
00:42:38
all of them so terry of course it gets talked to by the police and her explanation is very simple
00:42:45
and clear the people who joined her group which was basically what she said is you know it was a
00:42:51
kind of a new age meditation group. They were all emotionally troubled and invariably prone to take their own lives.
00:42:58
You know how people are. You know, you just attract a certain type. Yeah. Meditation, new age, suicide.
00:43:06
Right. It's very common. Yeah. Be careful. So, and she said they had left her their money in exactly the same way that other people
00:43:17
leave their money to traditional churches. So what's the problem? And the cops were like, great, see you later.
00:43:24
Now, very soon after the police investigation started, Terry's two stepchildren filed a lawsuit against her
00:43:34
saying that she had contributed to all those deaths through hypnosis, behavior modification, mind control,
00:43:42
and emotional manipulation, a.k.a. Terry was the leader of her own death cult. Whoa.
00:43:48
Yeah. She seems so innocent. I know. Should we look at her again? Let's look at her again.
00:43:53
Okay. I don't see it. I don't either. I don't see it. Okay. So we'll talk about Terry Hoffman's background.
00:44:05
She was born into a poor family. Her mother died of tuberculosis. And she was sent to an orphanage when she was nine years old.
00:44:14
So there she realized at the orphanage at age nine that she was the reincarnation of St. Teresa of Avia,
00:44:22
who, as we all know, all the good Catholics in the audience know that St. Teresa was a 16th century Spanish nun.
00:44:28
I had no idea of any of this. I was like, shit, they teach you guys a lot. Yeah, and we memorize it,
00:44:34
and we take it with us through our lives. St. Teresa was a Spanish nun who had visions of the Holy Trinity.
00:44:43
That's the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I know that one. Okay. So it's Monty Python God.
00:44:49
Spectacles, testicles, wallet watch. What? Spectacles, testicles, wallet watch. Is this what Jews say about Catholics when we're not around?
00:45:03
Is that from Airplane? I think it's... What? Austin Powers? No, it's older than that.
00:45:10
I'm glad I don't know that reference then. I got taught that at a young age. I think my dad taught me that.
00:45:17
Marty! Okay. Good to know. I was much more concerned with, do you know the Holy Trinity?
00:45:25
Because I was trying to back and Terry Hoffman you into my cult, which is Catholicism.
00:45:31
If you just have five minutes, I can tell you about the good word. Okay. But St. Teresa had these visions.
00:45:39
She believed that she was visited by the Holy Trinity. She also believed that you could visit the kingdom of heaven
00:45:43
like rooms in a castle. So she would basically kind of like astral project into heaven
00:45:49
and she told everybody about it. So Tara is like, me too. When she was 11, she was adopted,
00:45:58
but she ran away four years later to Durant, or Durant, Oklahoma. Durant! Oklahoma
00:46:06
has been representing so fucking hard at our shows. Hi guys. Okay. Hi, we had no idea.
00:46:13
We had no idea. Thanks for being here. Thank you. So she runs away to marry an 18-year-old truck diver named John Wilder.
00:46:22
What's a truck diver? What did I say? Truck diver. Oh, you've never heard of that?
00:46:28
They drive trucks off of piers and then in the truck they go fishing. It's okay, I did the addict addict switch,
00:46:38
a-roo, every show this weekend. This is the weekend that we find out that we have several speech impediments
00:46:44
and we're proud of them. Who cares? So, Terry, now that she's a married old 15-year-old,
00:46:54
drops out of high school, because fuck it, and she has a daughter in 1954. She has a son in 1958, another daughter in 1963.
00:47:02
They all live on a farm in South Dallas County. So her, of course, her husband, her 18-year-old husband,
00:47:11
goes away on these long-haul trucker trips. And so Terry begins to dabble in the occult.
00:47:17
She reads books about Edgar Cayce, and she takes classes in hypnotism. By the late 60s, they'd moved to Farmer's Branch.
00:47:27
And good times? Ooh. Ooh, gorgeous yet small houses there. Or big. We'll talk about it later.
00:47:38
So once they get there, she starts leading meditation classes at her house. And this is basically when conscious development started.
00:47:47
So far it's on the level. Yes, exactly. Sounds like everyone in LA. Yeah. For fuck's sake.
00:47:54
Oh, that's the thing I forgot to tell you when I went over my, when I actually got,
00:47:57
I just stuck with aromatherapy massage. Cause I was like, That's what people get.
00:48:01
Be normal like other people. Smell shit while you get massaged. I love aromatic oils.
00:48:06
Smelling it. But the woman goes, is there any particular areas that you want me to focus on or any problems you're having?
00:48:13
And I just go, no, I'm just trying to get back into my body. And then we both just stood there staring at each other.
00:48:21
And then I was like, I'm not in L.A. You're not supposed to say things like that.
00:48:25
Oh, my God. It was so embarrassing. Get back in my body. I'm just trying to get back in my body.
00:48:33
What does that mean? It's deep. It sounds deep. It just came out, and I thought she'd understand, and she was just like,
00:48:40
okay, you can put the robe over there. She just pretended like it never happened.
00:48:44
I'm going to use that. Did it work? Use it. Oh, I'm in my fucking body tonight. Let me tell you what.
00:48:50
She must have understood me. I did. Getting back. Thank you. It's nice to be here.
00:48:55
Okay. Okay. So it was basically just a talking meditation class. So she also, she would write up and sell lessons, like in little pamphlets herself.
00:49:10
And this was the first lesson. It was first degree lesson one. This is how it starts.
00:49:16
This is your first lesson. It is yours in a special way since the knowledge contained within it is sacred, secret, and mysterious.
00:49:23
It's fucking on the page. It's none of those things. This information has been treasured and carefully guarded since ancient times.
00:49:32
For knowledge gives its possessor power. That's true. This sounds like a really long fortune cookie so far.
00:49:41
By being exposed to the teachings of the masters, you will not only become aware of the truths which others rarely possess, yay,
00:49:50
but you will also learn how to use and control energies few have mastered. I'm already out.
00:49:56
You don't like bzzz? No. Harry Potter? Okay. So it turns out the masters are, according to Terry Hoffman, 12 wise spirit guides who would visit Earth to give advice or warnings to mankind.
00:50:13
Only a few people could, very rare few, could communicate with them. Of course, Terry was one of those people.
00:50:20
And she said that the 12 masters included Jesus Christ himself and a guy named Marcus.
00:50:25
so I'm in 100 I bet Jesus Christ is stoked he made the fucking grade yeah he made the list
00:50:35
he's like great I have so much to tell you guys sorry Marcus is talking you're gonna have to hold
00:50:42
on okay so according to Terry the masters first appeared to her when she was four years old
00:50:50
and they told her that she could have anything she wanted if she tried hard enough.
00:50:58
It might be true. I mean, depends on what you want. True. Yeah, let's think about it for a second.
00:51:07
Okay, I'm here. Let's do it. She also said that the problems that you have in your life
00:51:14
are coming up because you're paying for bad behavior from your past lives. So it's like Terry, that's karma. You didn't make that up. That's Hindu. Stop it. Terry.
00:51:27
I wish I was Terry's friend. I could just be there when she was writing up this pamphlet and be like, Terry, you're lying. Stop it.
00:51:34
Stop typing about Marcus. That's a fucking lie, Terry. You're being a negative energy. Quit it, Karen.
00:51:40
That's why she had to get rid of all the negative energies. Yes, because it was Karen telling her.
00:51:44
Yeah, because I'm trying to copy edit her bullshit. Just be like, you can't pretend you made up karma.
00:51:50
People will catch you. Okay. She also preached there's no difference between life and death as, quote,
00:51:58
you will become conscious of the continuity of life. Death then will not exist in reality because your existence is not dependent
00:52:06
on the mere existence of the physical body. What? What? You can't just put the word existence in a sentence seven times and be like, I talk to God.
00:52:17
Well, apparently you can. I mean, you can. And she did. Okay, so most of her ideas were borrowed from the usual text that inspired the New Age movement,
00:52:28
except her doctrine that offered forgiveness for sin and was very pro-sex, like have it as much as you want and can.
00:52:37
Shoes! Yay! Is that what you guys are ours? Well, yeah, that's your jam. We dig it. Particularly. No, but yes. Yes. Yeah. So
00:52:47
People were super into this concept basically because they're like, oh, I went to it
00:52:52
I thought I was going to a yoga class, but it turns out I should fuck way more It's kind of what happened and people are like I gotta go back to my class
00:53:00
I might start taking it two days a week So as the people who are as old as I am know, the 80s were a time of great materialism in this country.
00:53:11
Great expansion of materialism. And of course Dallas was a hotbed for it. There's tons of rich
00:53:20
people here because of the oil industry and the TV show Dallas. I don't know, I'm making that up.
00:53:25
I mean, it was everywhere, obviously, but it was the thing that always happens with materialism where it creates an empty hole and people are like, but I bought an $80,000 car and I'm still upset.
00:53:37
Now I'm really freaked out. What's going to happen to me? And normal religion wasn't helping most people with this feeling and they were turning to new age options.
00:53:47
A lot of people became spiritual seekers. And so Terry meditation classes she acted she was the wise guru She had all the answers She had a fucking direct line to Jesus and Marcus
00:54:08
And as her students sat cross-legged on the floor, she sat there lecturing, this is straight from the article, lecturing everyone on anything from personal finance to sex to ghosts.
00:54:21
Yes. All right, I don't know how. I'm in that class. Like, sorry, how do you balance your checkbook again?
00:54:29
What's haunted? And meditate. But then after the lecture part, then she would speak in a softer voice
00:54:40
and she would lead the group in a trance-like state. And then the evening ended with a round of prayer,
00:54:48
which I think is really fascinating. She studied hypnotism when she was younger and then she kind of like I think they're insinuating that she practiced it with these
00:54:56
groups of people so um and for an additional fee she would give people in individual consultations
00:55:03
on their show about their checkbook yeah she'd be like you have too much money I need some
00:55:09
so when her husband John the truck driver confronted her about taking her leading a
00:55:16
meditation group thing too far she claimed that he was impeding her spiritual growth and she
00:55:22
divorced him. And soon after, he and her adoptive mother actually had her committed to a psychiatric
00:55:30
hospital for examination because she was going crazy. Or she was just a woman in the early 80s.
00:55:39
But she did end up losing custody of her children when the divorce was finalized in March of 1971.
00:55:46
Three months later, she married conscious development member Glenn Cooley, who was a
00:55:52
student at North Texas State University. Yeah. After they got married, he dropped out of school.
00:56:00
Boo. Kind of. Right? And he went to work full-time at Conscious Development. He was 20 years old.
00:56:09
She was 33. Okay, that's sexy. So she was balling. Then she gets this great idea that she introduces the concept of crystals and precious gems
00:56:22
to the group and she starts to implore her followers to start using electrically charged
00:56:30
crystals and gems because they had protective and healing qualities and luckily she made jewelry
00:56:38
with just those very crystals and gems. Beautiful. Her and the 20 year old made jewelry together and so
00:56:45
she urged her followers to buy it and she said the more expensive the pieces were the more they
00:56:51
protected you. That's not how religion works. It's not. It feels like it is has been working that way
00:56:58
for a long time. Well I'm here to tell you. Oh no Marcus. Can we see the picture of the whole group?
00:57:07
Oh yes. Is that is that okay? Yes in fact check this shit out. Wow. Okay which one do you think
00:57:13
Terry is at this point because this is the late 70s. Okay. The one with the beard. No, Terry. She's a woman. The one in the middle. No. The one. It's old floral shirt over there on the side. That's her? Yes.
00:57:31
And her husband. The hot middle? Is over here in the karate outfit. What? Yes. I asked Steven if he would zoom in.
00:57:41
This is from a little bit later on in the relation, but not that much later. She's not 33.
00:57:47
Ooh. No. That's a rough 33 right there. No, she's not. This is like 10 years later.
00:57:56
Still, that's not 43 either. Sometimes when your boobs are big, they take up all this space.
00:58:02
And then you're like, I don't want to wear this fucking bra anymore. So you're like, fuck it. I have my own cult. I'm not wearing a bra anymore.
00:58:10
And also, I'm going to wear this tablecloth as a dress. Here's your husband. Aw, shit, y'all.
00:58:20
Did you know that's where Matthew McConaughey got his start? Can we, real quick, though, go back?
00:58:27
Sure. Okay. Can you guess, wait, which one Stephen is? When you see it... Oh, wait.
00:58:40
In the very middle. The middle? Because there's also a secret Stephen over on the left.
00:58:45
Oh, shit. Yeah. Wait, they're all Stephen. Stephen. Ah. Stephen. This whole time.
00:58:54
You were a whole cult. No, I did. I didn't even know it. Okay. So they're deeply in love.
00:59:04
And... Okay, so there's a person in this group and her name was Sandy Cleaver and she had all the jewelry.
00:59:15
She bought into this whole concept hook, line and sinker. And she had a family trust.
00:59:22
She came from a lot of money. So she had the time and resources to dedicate herself to conscious development.
00:59:29
And she, like of course many people, she had a life marked with tragedy. Her mother had been in and out of mental hospitals.
00:59:36
Her teenage sister died in a car accident. And her father had died in a plane crash.
00:59:42
So she was a seeker. She was looking for some kind of spiritual answers. And she had been in this group since the beginning.
00:59:52
And she really believed that Terry was all the things that she said and was really helping her Terry begins to prescribe holistic medicines to her followers
01:00:05
Just rando pills that she had literally driven up in a truck from Mexico. No, don't take those, you guys.
01:00:12
Yeah. And it was like, these are crushed up crystals. Eat them. No. No, no. I mean, that's what I imagined.
01:00:19
Why would you? It's like, this is a bunch of, I'm like, cumin. Right. But it's magic. It's going to give you powers or whatever.
01:00:28
That's why I don't have a cult. So she also begins to convince her followers that she can diagnose people's problems telepathically
01:00:42
and then prescribe them these holistic medicines. And this is basically how she sells her believers these medicines
01:00:49
so they will give the medicines to their family members. Oh, no. And Sandy Cleaver, Terry basically says, your five-year-old daughter is very sick and needs these medicines.
01:01:02
And so Sandy's like, let's do it. When Sandy filed for divorce, a month after Terry filed for divorce, she told her husband it was because he was blocking her spiritual development.
01:01:16
and he sued for custody because he could tell that she was going off the deep end
01:01:25
with this meditation group that she was in and he testified at the hearing that Sandy was giving their 5-year-old daughter
01:01:34
110 pills a day. 110? I can't even take 6 vitamins. I know. That poor baby. I know. It's super nuts.
01:01:45
But he ends up letting Sandy have custody of their daughter. Their daughter's name is Devereaux.
01:01:54
If you weren't sure if they were really rich. They're super fucking rich. Because have you ever even heard that name before?
01:02:03
Okay. He was so afraid that Sandy was going to, because he knew that Sandy was studying this thing that said
01:02:10
there's no difference between life and death, and it's just another realm and it's just a different place to travel to,
01:02:15
that he was afraid if he tried to take Devereux away, she would kill her. So he let her have custody.
01:02:23
But they actually put a special provision in the divorce decree saying that Sandy was only allowed to take Devereux to licensed physicians,
01:02:33
which is an insane demand. Right. No, just kidding. Okay, so Sandy becomes, once she gets a divorce, she becomes Terry's full-time unpaid assistant.
01:02:46
Oh, interns. And when the company gets incorporated, she becomes the secretary treasurer.
01:02:54
She's like, you know, yeah, she's there, front line. She continually leaves Devereaux with their elderly housekeeper and goes to meetings, weekend retreats.
01:03:06
She's never around. when she took in a member of a group that was homeless, her ex-husband's like, sorry, what are you doing?
01:03:14
We have a child in the house. And she said his negative energy was making Devereaux sick.
01:03:19
So as the group grows larger, Terry then tells 25 hand-selected special people, now this is the group, but you are my teachers.
01:03:31
And so they got sworn to secrecy, and she told them something that could never be spoken outside of their small group.
01:03:40
And she said that was that they're all members of what's called a white brotherhood
01:03:44
and that they were chosen by the masters to destroy the forces of evil, which was a group called the Black Lords.
01:03:51
The wording of this is very problematic and uncomfortable. I want to assume she was just doing that as a color thing,
01:04:01
but she absolutely could have been racist. We don't fucking know what this woman's deal was.
01:04:05
She thought she was Saint Teresa. The good news is, the evil force had only existed on the astral and mental planes.
01:04:15
So that's, you had to fight them there. So, to kill them, you had to take them to the pits of hell where their soul and lower bodies would be dissolved.
01:04:24
But the black overlords could not be destroyed in the pits of hell. They must be destroyed in the electromagnetic dissolving cave.
01:04:31
Jesus, I already need a fucking map. Like, when I got to this part of the story, I started getting that weird stomachache where it's like when you're little and you get left alone for too long and there's no adults in the room and you're like, there's too much kid talking and like kid pretending where you're like, you need to shut up for a while.
01:04:50
Everybody, turn the TV on. Like, I don't want to hear your weird story anymore. That's what this is.
01:04:57
This is a woman with no filter and no editor who's just like, I have another idea.
01:05:03
No. Let it marinate. Okay, because also, there are also garbons. What? O' beans.
01:05:12
No. There were things called garbons. I didn't hear that. I get it. This is how un-fucking-creative this woman was.
01:05:22
She literally finishes a salad and she's like, there's also an evil force called a garbon.
01:05:28
This is O' bean. Garbons. Oh beans were six feet tall, covered in slime. Oh, like garbanzo beans.
01:05:39
Exactly like that. They had long beaks. They looked like gargoyles. And they were known to cross into the physical and touch you and leave slime.
01:05:48
Ew. Yeah. That's gross. So if that happened to you and if after 30 seconds your hand tingled or shakes, that's
01:05:54
a garbanzo stuck to it and you have to use your imagination wrap it in barbed wire stab it and kill it and then imagine the dead garb on spinning straight up and dissolving into the universe
01:06:05
Someone stopped taking their meds. Someone. A while ago. This is like when you do a ton of coke with a stranger.
01:06:13
You're just like, I don't want to talk to you anymore. Oh my god. Can I have two more cigarettes and I'm going to leave?
01:06:23
Okay. So... Go way faster, sorry. Okay, so she said that these teachers needed to arm themselves with magic symbols, a rod, a sword, a cup, and a cloth bag containing a cup of dirt.
01:06:40
My god. She said that they had to wear headbands of gold or silver, the protective jewelry, and she said they had to wear robes because, quote,
01:06:50
a properly made robe can give you up to 15 times more power. This isn't a fucking video game. What is happening?
01:06:57
You're in the worst fucking after-school theater class you've ever accidentally joined.
01:07:05
So they would sit in circles and they would battle the overlords for hours mentally with their imagination.
01:07:12
And then they would call Terry and give her the body count. We killed 260 black lords, but no overlords.
01:07:21
Yes. And Terry would be like, I would do that with you, but your negative family is making me sick, and I have to fight my own garb on.
01:07:29
So be. I mean, I was there when we were meditating, great, but now that I have to do all this homework in my head, I'm like over it.
01:07:39
And there's this whole part. I mean, you guys have to read these articles because there's so much I'm leaving out, and it's so dense.
01:07:47
But they would she just grow the author sorry describes them having to fight these
01:07:53
These black lords where they're they could use as a as a rod Or I mean as a sword they it didn't have to be a sword
01:08:00
It could just be a pen or a letter opener, so they would be like going like sitting there and going like this
01:08:05
To kill the garbanzo beans Okay basically And they listed the kind of people that were in this group
01:08:17
a college professor, an advertising agency executive, a counselor for the Dallas School District.
01:08:24
Yeah. All off their meds. So she made them, everything she told them was making them more and more paranoid.
01:08:36
No one could be trusted outside the group, especially the people who had been in and were like,
01:08:41
hey, I'm not into the Garbans thing, I have to go. Okay, there were people who were like, goodbye.
01:08:45
Yeah. Okay, good. Way goodbye. But then on February 2nd, 1977, her husband, Glenn Cooley, was found dead.
01:08:56
Karate kid? The karate king. Okay, so they'd been married for six years at this point.
01:09:02
He worked for the jewelry business, but basically when he started hearing about this Black Lord's thing, he wanted out.
01:09:10
And he'd actually told his family, like, this whole thing has gone a little crazy and I need to get away.
01:09:14
Yeah. So they separated in September of 1976, but he still worked for CD Gems, which was the name of their corporation.
01:09:23
CD Gems? CD Gems. Okay. Like CD Gems. Like CD Gems. She wasn't a smart woman. So the divorce goes through in January of 1977. Five days later, he goes to spend the weekend at his parents' cabin in Lake Grapevine.
01:09:40
and the next day she says she finds a handwritten will in her safe. The most convenient place to leave something.
01:09:52
And in the will, he left everything to Terry. And so there's actually a line in the will that says,
01:09:58
I will ask that this last will of mine will not be contested in any way. Oh, that's convenient.
01:10:05
It's written in. so she says when she saw that the will he put in a safe she got two of her teachers
01:10:13
drove to that cabin and when they got there they found her 25 year old ex-husband
01:10:17
dead in bed with a strange ooze coming out of his mouth and they found a can of beer
01:10:22
and some capsules and when the toxicology report came back it was Valium and Librium in his system
01:10:28
so Terry tells the authorities he was despondent over the divorce and she told him not to go off alone,
01:10:37
but he was basically suicidal. And his death was uncontested for 13 years. Everyone just took her story at face value.
01:10:47
So then we get into the part where she starts losing followers because she said his death was proof
01:10:54
that the Black Lords were winning and the Overlords were winning. And so now they need to introduce
01:10:59
the next level of protections, bloodletting. Oh, fuck. Uh-huh. So basically she tells the teachers, the black lords have the power to poison the blood, and so the blood needed to be drained.
01:11:12
And it was fine if it was just like a syringe. You just take out a syringe of blood every day.
01:11:16
And all these people are just like, you know what, I've been here for the crystals and the gems, and I've bought your bullshit.
01:11:22
I'm taking pill after pill for you. So people start bailing even in the inner circle, but Sandy Cleaver stays in.
01:11:31
and then Terry starts to tell her that her 14 year old daughter, Devereux is now 14, and Terry says she's been infected by the Black Lords.
01:11:41
Oh no. So in December of 78, Sandy was never home, never went to Devereux games.
01:11:50
She played basketball, she was in high school and doing all this stuff and Sandy was completely negligent.
01:11:55
But then she comes to her daughter and says, I want to take you on a trip to Hawaii.
01:12:00
So, of course, Devereaux is so happy and excited, and Sandy's fiancé at the time went with them, and they went to this area that was basically, it was like a certain beach, and they took this blue raft out into the water, and then they don't come back.
01:12:19
And so Sandy's fiance calls the cops and they end up finding Sandy bloody and stranded on this coral reef.
01:12:27
And her story is they were out on this thing and a huge wave hit them and they got washed up onto this coral reef and she couldn't find Devereaux.
01:12:36
And they end up finding Devereaux's body like four hours later. What? So when Chuck, Sandy's ex-husband and Devereaux's dad,
01:12:47
he finds out that they call him when she's still missing and they haven't found the body yet.
01:12:52
So he hustles it up and takes a flight, the next flight to Hawaii. And when he gets there, Terry's already in Sandy's hospital room.
01:13:01
So Sandy's been beaten up on these rocks or whatever. Terry's already there. and um uh back home in dallas somebody had called chuck's house and a family friend answered the
01:13:14
phone and they said um we have a document that you need to see and it was devereau's will a 14
01:13:21
year old's will and in it her 125 000 trust that she'd gotten from her mom was left to terry and
01:13:29
And so in it also, there was the line that said they specifically asking not to have the will be contested.
01:13:39
So two months later, Sandy takes out a $300,000 life insurance policy on herself, which was twice the limit.
01:13:47
The insurance agent's like, you don't need that much. And she's like, no, I insist.
01:13:52
17 rings. No, I need to. And in it, Terry is the sole beneficiary. and then she transfers the deed to her home or the title of her home to Terry
01:14:05
and then begins paying Terry rent to live in her home. No. Yeah. So in September of 1981, Sandy persuades Louise,
01:14:15
the old housekeeper that basically raised Devereaux herself. She's like, we need to go on a trip to Colorado.
01:14:22
The conscious development has bought this plot of land for a retreat that we're going to build one day and we should go look at the land.
01:14:28
And the 77-year-old housekeeper's like, fuck off. I'm putting my feet up. But she basically made her go.
01:14:36
And they fly out. And it was in an area near Cripple Creek. And you're on this mountain.
01:14:44
And they are in the station wagon. They drive up the road to the mountain and fucking off that mountain.
01:14:50
Yeah. The cops say there were no skid marks. There were no brake marks or anything.
01:14:55
It was she just drove off the mountain and killed them both. And then they find Terry shows up in Colorado to claim the bodies.
01:15:05
And she's carrying both women's wills. Oh, no. Everything is left to Terry. And the housekeeper didn't even know Terry.
01:15:16
And she left everything in her will to Terry. What? Yes. That's fishy. Sandy Cleaver's brother takes Terry to court and she's like, he's like, this is all a crazy cult and this is like mind control and crazy bullshit.
01:15:31
And they end up, because it is a document, I don't know what happened, but she has to pay, she immediately cashed that $300,000 check from the life insurance policy.
01:15:43
So she has to pay him back half of that money and then they split the rest of Sandy's estate.
01:15:50
So she got half of it. Yeah. Let's see. So then there's still a couple followers left after that.
01:15:56
The Goodmans, who are the people we talked about at the very beginning, they're still in.
01:16:00
And they were kind of like late adopters. And David Goodman had testified at Terry's trial saying that Conscious Development was a discussion group that fosters good vibrations.
01:16:13
Fucking Beach Boys are some shit. Four other group members also testified on Terry's behalf at that trial,
01:16:24
and three of those people would end up killing themselves. Wow. Eventually, Terry came out with her own perfume.
01:16:33
Oh my God, is it called Good Vibrations? And also an acupressure massage therapy course that she's...
01:16:44
Finally, a criminal investigation was launched by the Dallas District Attorney's Office in January of 1990.
01:16:51
What? Yeah, and the problem was that it's so difficult to determine if mind control can be cited as a cause of death.
01:17:03
Right. Because it's hard to prove. They, of course, deny any wrongdoing. that Terry Hoffman's lawyer said this is a witch hunt and she's a great person.
01:17:15
She's a witch. Yeah. But a bad witch. They can't find evidence linking Terry Hoffman to any of the deaths,
01:17:25
so she doesn't ever go to jail for any of them. But she does file for bankruptcy in October of 1991.
01:17:32
She's sentenced to 16 months in prison for bankruptcy fraud in May of 1994. She only served a year and
01:17:41
in 1995 Unsolved Mysteries did an episode on the disappearance of the Terry Hoffman's follower Charles Southern. She married she ended up marrying five men
01:17:54
Wow all together and they at the end they wrote a book I really mad at myself because I took a picture of this thing that I wanted to write in the end
01:18:06
but I fucking forgot to write it down. The book they wrote was called, I think it's called something like Money Colors.
01:18:14
And it's basically like how to attract money to yourself through wearing different colors in your clothes.
01:18:21
That's something my mom would have read in the 80s. A lot of people read it in the English. They were like, have you gotten your money colors done?
01:18:28
I only eat great freaking cottage cheese and I wear purple for money. Because the purple symbolizes $500.
01:18:38
Anyway, she died in 1997 and that's the end of that. I'm sorry that was so long.
01:18:48
I've never had a murder that was less fucking skippable. Like normally when we're reading these you're like this isn't important. That's a strange detail. Yeah, every
01:18:59
Every single thing is nutso. No, I'm down. I'm here for the murder. Thank you. I appreciate it
01:19:05
All right Oh, this is okay. This is the Illustration how awesome is this this was the fucking illustration now? I'm not gonna be able to get back to page one
01:19:17
This is the illustration that was in God bless it Texas Monthly magazine That is a tattoo for the ages.
01:19:27
Look how rad. Wait, and the guy that drew its name was Joel Peter Johnson. How amazing is that?
01:19:35
That is glorious. We need prayer candles of that image. Oh, good idea. And it sucks because I had to do the thing.
01:19:45
I made Steven edit that for me. Because I had to do the control shift 4 thing where I had to take a picture on my screen.
01:19:53
because you can't drag and drop. And her little feet are dangling down. She's floating in the air.
01:19:58
Yeah. Cute. Okay. And we're back. Great job, Karen. Thank you. From 2017. Way back when.
01:20:09
Do you have any updates? There are two updates. One of them is, so this is weird.
01:20:14
I said in that show that Terry Hoffman died in 1997. But according to Wikipedia, which we know is an ironclad source,
01:20:23
Wikipedia says that Terry Hoffman died at age 77 in 2015. That's not attributed to any source, but that same fact is repeated other places.
01:20:34
So Maren looked it up and she can't find anything refuting it. But it's almost like that kind of thing when the single source is Wikipedia itself.
01:20:42
So not sure. That's weird. There is an article in D Magazine said that she was alive in 2014.
01:20:49
And so I think a part of this is that she remarried after the investigations to a man named Roger Keneally and changed her name to Terry Lila Keneally.
01:21:01
So that might be why no one knew when she died or it didn't go out the same way.
01:21:07
Wow. Yeah, that was such a good fucking story. So crazy. Oh, my God. Okay, so let's get into your story now.
01:21:13
This is George's story about Sandra Bridewell. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer,
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01:24:43
All right. My murder, you guys, is again, all the information from the same place
01:24:51
is Sandra Bridewell, the Black Widow of Dallas. Ooh! I love a Black Widow. I know you love a
01:24:59
Black Widow. I just love it. This is a weird story. Alright, so let's talk about Sandra.
01:25:05
Let's see a picture of her. She's hot. That's her. She's gorgeous. Beautiful. That was an inappropriate reaction,
01:25:13
you guys. She's a gorgeous woman. She, you want to see them? Yes, please. Okay. Well, but just because, look at her friends, they're all so pretty.
01:25:23
Yeah, they're all really rich. They're having the best fucking Halloween ever. Because they're really rich.
01:25:27
Oh, because they're rich. Okay, let me talk. Let's talk about her. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Sandra is born April 4th, 1944, in a little town of Sedalia, Missouri.
01:25:39
Okay. Sedalia, Missouri. Thank you. And was adopted as an infant to parents. and according to parents, I guess that's weird, right? Because I cut out their names.
01:25:53
Okay. According to reports, by the age of three, her adoptive mother, Camille, was killed in an
01:25:59
auto accident and her father, Arthur, who managed and ran a Dr. Pepper bottling plant, remarried
01:26:05
and they relocated to Oak Cliff, Texas. You guys are rich. No, I'm kidding. No, that's not a rich
01:26:14
That's later when she's older. Now they're mad. Can I just say that I had a Dr. Pepper today and it was so goddamn delicious?
01:26:23
Hmm. This is the mini bar and I was like, I always just automatically drink Diet Coke and I was like,
01:26:30
Hey, I'm in fucking Texas, I get to have a Dr. Pepper if I want. You guys really know how to live. Okay.
01:26:38
Apologies to Oak Cliff because you're not rich, I guess? I guess. All right. It's all kinds of problems. Okay. There he worked as a cemetery plot salesman,
01:26:51
which sounds fun. Sandra and her new stepmom, they fought all the time. Apparently she was real mean
01:26:57
to Sandra that she said her stepmother regularly locked her in the closet, told her nobody wanted
01:27:02
her. And then one time was like, we're going to throw you a big birthday party. Ready for your
01:27:06
birthday party? It's today. And then she's like, JK, I didn't send out any of the invitations.
01:27:10
nobody likes you. Wow. I know. What's that lady's problem? After graduating from high school
01:27:20
where she really didn't date much, she was just kind of a quiet girl, she began dating lots of dudes
01:27:26
and it was kind of in her mind that she was like, I'm going to be a fucking housewife
01:27:30
to a very rich person. That's my goal. Nice. She's like, okay, get it, girls. Get it.
01:27:34
Whatever. Do it. We all have different goals in life. Yeah, I love it. And every dude became smitten with her
01:27:40
because she was beautiful, and then her friends said that she would do a thing called the ladylike,
01:27:45
poor, helpless me routine. After one year of college, she drops out, and she apparently is like a great,
01:27:53
she lies all the time telling people that her adoptive parents had been killed, that her parents were aristocrats, all this bullshit.
01:28:01
The aristocats? Yeah. Then she meets a man named David Stiegel. He's a fancy dentist.
01:28:09
He'd gone to school. What? Yeah. Lots of pinky rings and stuff. He's fancy as fuck. He's a highfalutin dentist. You know what I mean?
01:28:18
Yes. Like he's like, I'm not going to fucking give you a drill your teeth. I'm going to like do plastic surgery, like fancy shit.
01:28:25
Oh, okay. Stuff that isn't covered by insurance that costs a lot of money for high fucking society. You know what I mean?
01:28:31
Yes. Got it. You're just like, hey, do you want me to give you a dent in your chin? I can do that for you.
01:28:36
Right. I'm a fancy dentist. What was your childhood dentist's name? Oh, God, I don't remember the dentist.
01:28:42
You don't? No. Do you? Of course I do. That's why I ask the question. Do you remember your childhood?
01:28:52
We're just asking security questions. What's your mother's maiden name? What's that?
01:28:59
I didn't hear you. Have you seen the ones that it's like, who's your favorite niece or nephew?
01:29:05
It's just like mean ones. Is that true? I've never seen that one. Okay. I just know that every single one where they're like, what's your first car?
01:29:12
And then I'll be like, you know, whatever the answer is. And then the next time I go there, I'm like, well, there was that other one.
01:29:17
Yeah. My mom sometimes let me drive the Volvo. I can't ever get into anything. No way.
01:29:26
Okay. So she meets fancy dentist, David. He had gone to school in Los Angeles and had Hollywood caliber clients,
01:29:33
but in the Dallas fucking Richie Rich set. You know what I'm saying? So this is like the mid 60s.
01:29:38
everyone's rich as fuck in Dallas. Sure. And he had a thing for fancy stuff, big
01:29:44
Cadillacs and houses and pretty women. They get married in 1967. They have three
01:29:49
children and they're raising their family in an upscale Dallas neighborhood. But
01:29:54
despite his salary and his like highfalutin reputation he couldn keep up with Sandra spending She was like we spending it all because I said so
01:30:06
Yeah, you don't really need a reason. So she had lavish tastes. She loved buying art and expensive furniture.
01:30:15
And by 1974, the family is in severe debt. Oh, no. So he's forced to borrow money from his family to pay their bills.
01:30:22
And in 1975, the situation and their marriage is falling apart. It had gotten so bad that David tried to kill himself.
01:30:30
And by Sandra's story is that she told, she found him in a closet with a gun pointed to his head,
01:30:36
called his coworker, like his business owner. I was like, business owner? No. You know, his partner.
01:30:43
Yeah. Thank you. He comes and they talk him out of killing himself. but a few weeks later
01:30:50
he is found lying in bed with both of his wrists slashed and a gunshot wound to his head.
01:30:58
Oh, that's a bit overkill. Yeah. Seems like. Well then, you know, when I found all these random articles
01:31:06
and Reddit stuff and it said that the gunshot wound was first. So clearly he didn't do that
01:31:13
but I didn't find that corroborated anywhere So I'm not saying it good use of the word corroborated though. Thank you
01:31:22
Um, this is a true crime fact. That's right. I know words. I know words some of them not most of them
01:31:29
Okay, so here that was her nope That's someone else. Okay, that's her alright, so after his death she collects the insurance on her husband's life and
01:31:40
and sells his practice, and then she begins dating wealthy men again. Which is like, man, her husband just killed herself.
01:31:47
Like, go get yours, honey. Poor thing. Like, that sucks, right? Unless she killed him.
01:31:52
Right. Okay. It's hard to know whose side to be on. It is. Probably not the black widows, I would assume.
01:32:00
So she kind of was, men were spelled by her blah, blah, blah, and then a little more than,
01:32:07
you know, she's hot. She had a really hot blah, blah, blah. blah blah blah blah blah you know what i mean so a little more than three years after her husband
01:32:15
dies she marries a well-known dallas hotel guy and investor hotelier yeah that's right
01:32:23
bobby bridewell so that's her new her second husband he adopts sandra's three three daughters
01:32:30
they moved to upscale neighborhood of highland park so she could have she could have been in the
01:32:35
cult maybe. Oh, that's right. She was right around the corner. Yeah. Sharpening her fingernails.
01:32:42
But in 1980, Bobby is diagnosed with cancer. So he, while he is recovering from radiation
01:32:50
and is trying to get better, she is having the entire home remodeled. Yes, because you have to
01:32:59
cleanse clap the corners, sage the house get new Italian furniture, wallpaper shag carpeting
01:33:09
very important so she's having it remodeled and then she says to her neighbor, you know I'm getting
01:33:17
this done today, can you take him in your house for a week and let him live there? Her dying husband?
01:33:23
so she moves in with the neighbors he never returns to his home two years after his diagnosis
01:33:29
and a couple weeks after this, he dies. So, she, Sandra becomes friends with her late husband's oncologist,
01:33:38
Dr. John Bagwell, and his wife, Betsy. They become buddies. And so, Betsy is the quintessential Highland Park housewife and mother.
01:33:50
She's fucking Highland Park High School cheerleader she was. She wasn't as an adult, that would be weird.
01:33:56
you kind of said that like yoda i know highland park cheerleader she was i get it i get it yeah um she but but you know she's like you know she's the shit she's she's a
01:34:14
hard-working lady shakespeare festival junior league active in the presbyterian church taught
01:34:18
bible class for children in her home while raising two of her own children so the couple was like
01:34:23
great we love this chick she's our friend sandra awesome wonderful but then she starts becoming
01:34:28
really like obsessive with them and fucking totally what about bob's one of their vacations
01:34:33
and shows up unannounced in new mexico where they were vacationing she fucking what about bob's that shit what are you guys doing in new mexico
01:34:42
i think we have a photo of her so that's her and her um that's her third husband steven
01:34:50
that's not him either i thought we had a photo that was there she is that's betsy
01:34:55
bagwell okay wait sorry that's the that's the good woman yeah then one tried was just trying
01:35:02
to go on vacation yeah okay so she's like surprise new mexico um and then they're like we need to
01:35:09
distance ourselves from this woman at that point um so they they are trying to break ties with her
01:35:16
but she's still really insistent with hanging out with them even though they try not to get her
01:35:19
letter in their lives. But then in early June 82, Sandra calls Betsy and is like,
01:35:26
hey, I need a ride to the airport. My car won't start. Some bullshit about that. So
01:35:32
Betsy goes to help her, takes her to the airport and when they go to the lot where
01:35:36
Sandra's car is parked because she had forgotten her driver's license, it's some convoluted bullshit story.
01:35:44
So then four hours later, after Sandra being the last person to see Betsy June 16th, 1982.
01:35:53
Betsy, 40 year old, she's found dead in her Mercedes in the airport parking lot where they had
01:36:00
She'd been shot in the head and her death was ruled a suicide. Right. No. So Sandra being the last person to see Bagwell alive, all these questions of course surface.
01:36:16
And there's no evidence, there's not a suicide note, she'd been living a happy life.
01:36:20
Everyone who knew her was like, hell fucking no, there's no way she would have done that.
01:36:23
Yeah. But police, John Bagwell, the husband, hires a private investigator, but police closed the case and refused to open it.
01:36:32
So, let's see. So when Sandra has the funeral for her husband who died of cancer, Bobby, she got about $50,000 as like memorial funds.
01:36:45
I guess people just like give you money. I don't know. That's not usually how it works.
01:36:49
Well, she didn't really spend any money on his funeral. She got, like, the cheapest casket and all this stuff,
01:37:00
and it pissed everyone off. Okay. June 1984, she meets a guy named Alan Rierig. He's a good-looking 29-year-old, just moved to Dallas,
01:37:09
a former college basketball star from Oklahoma. He was going to hit it rich in real estate.
01:37:15
And so he's like, I want to be rich, and he's driving around Highland Park. He's like, this is the rich neighborhood.
01:37:22
Sometimes people who live in these big houses will rent out their back house for people like me.
01:37:27
So he's driving around, sees a hot woman on her fancy lawn and gets out and is like, asks her.
01:37:33
Turns out it's our friend Sandra. Uh-oh. And they, and she's like, I don't, but I'll help you.
01:37:39
And of course they fucking fall madly in love with each other. Which is like the creepiest way to meet someone, right?
01:37:44
No, I love it. In a rich neighborhood on a lawn? Come on. Croquet style? Yeah. These are the 70s, people.
01:37:57
Okay. So within weeks, they're inseparable. Then in the fall of 84, she says that she's pregnant.
01:38:03
She tells him she's pregnant. But unbeknownst to him, seven years earlier, she had had a hysterectomy.
01:38:09
So she's fucking lying. That's a lie then. Yeah. And she also told him she was 36, but she was really 41.
01:38:17
Girl, that's funny. Five full years. They were really mad at that one. Do not lie about your age in Texas.
01:38:27
So he didn't doubt her, though. He had no reason to. So they got married in December 1984.
01:38:34
And then she was like, oh, shit, I can't, like, lie about this for a couple years.
01:38:38
So she says she has a miscarriage. And so. I'm just still worried about lying. If you lie that you're five years younger than you are.
01:38:48
Yeah, you look like shit. I mean, dude. Yeah. At a certain point, it all just starts falling apart, as I would personally attest.
01:38:57
You're just like, I'm 32, everybody. I want to lie up, so be like, damn, you look good for 41.
01:39:05
Exactly right. Because I look really good for 41, but I'm 37. So it doesn't... I'm so disappointed.
01:39:13
Sorry. Okay. Then. Okay. loses the baby. No, there's no baby. Loses imaginary baby.
01:39:26
All right. So he quickly realizes that Sandra loves money. Who amongst us, though?
01:39:32
I'm going to go ahead and be fair to her. Stop casting stones. This goes super Bible really fast.
01:39:42
So she's like pushing him to make more money. She takes out a big life insurance policy on him.
01:39:48
Dang. He tells, yes. They should do something at like when you're in Allstate and someone comes in and they're just like,
01:40:00
Yeah. Hello, I'm just kind of 45 and I don't know. I feel like looking into a humongous life insurance policy and then people are like,
01:40:09
Hold on. 911, what's your emergency? I don't know what the emergency is yet, but it's going to be bad.
01:40:16
You can call, there's like a future crimes hotline. Yes. Hey. Hello, Minority Report.
01:40:23
Who's this? That's what I was trying to think of, but I was going to say The Matrix.
01:40:27
It's not... So I didn't do it. Hello, The Matrix. May I help you? Oh, no, no, no.
01:40:34
You want to call Minority Report. Okay. Good luck. Phone bits. Why haven't we been doing them all along?
01:40:42
It was a great idea, Karen. And also the oldest phone we could be using. This is the iPhone X.
01:40:50
Hello? Well, what do they do now? This? Yeah. Hello? Hello? That's stupid. That looks so stupid.
01:40:56
It's this. Why didn't you text me? Okay, well, we're not friends anymore. Okay. We're not friends anymore.
01:41:05
Now I have three huge zits right here. Okay. Oh, he tells his friends that Sandra, guess how much money she spends a month on clothes, food, and travel.
01:41:19
Guess how much. Clothes, food, and travel? Like, guess how much a month she spends.
01:41:23
A month. Okay. Well, let's talk about how much I spend a month on clothes. Zero.
01:41:30
Karen, as a Jewish friend, I need to tell you, you need to start spending more money on clothes.
01:41:36
I have Catholic permission to buy more clothes? Yes. um i'm gonna say and it's the 80s right five thousand dollars twenty thousand what
01:41:46
the fuck but how fun of a month would that be if we could do that you guys if we just had one month where you could do that we would have the best
01:41:54
fucking month but we what she doing like going to new mexico four times like what knock knock Oh uh I don know It the thing of when people buy expensive clothes because we all like
01:42:05
how? That's a lot of clothes at Forever 21. Yeah. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. People shop at,
01:42:11
adults shop at real places. That's right. 41 year old shop at real stores. God, that's so many shirts
01:42:16
that are going to pull apart in three days. I know. Why would she waste that money? Right.
01:42:21
So she could have bought like two power suits and that's it, you know, and they were that's how much they were
01:42:27
We don't know. Okay In November 1985 the couple separates because of all this the money problems and
01:42:36
she's a crazy liar so He moves in with a friend and they didn't see each other for several weeks and then in December 1985
01:42:47
Sandra calls him and is like, let's meet at the storage facility we rent because we need to get this stuff out of here.
01:42:53
No, thank you. No. Never meet anyone at a storage facility. Why not say, meet me in the middle of the desert, bring your own shovel.
01:43:03
No. I met my dad at a storage facility once. What? I met my dad at a storage facility once, but I survived.
01:43:12
It was really depressing because I helped him clean his storage facility out. So that's just as bad.
01:43:18
But they're like, it's such a strange desert of nothingness and weird secrets that people have behind some garage door.
01:43:27
I would have not met anyone else I know at a storage facility. Fuck no. I'm so mad at him.
01:43:34
Yeah. Okay. He kept trying to make me take things home. Do you want this? No, I don't want that, Dad.
01:43:40
Throw it away, Dad. Just throw it away. It's going to be okay. Just a weird old mug from McDonald's.
01:43:46
Okay. So they're going to meet at the storage facility, and he doesn't show up. Right?
01:43:53
Oh. So she says, next thing we know, he is found slumped over in his Bronco in Oklahoma.
01:44:01
He had been killed by gunshots to the head and chest. And it was apparent that his body had been driven to Oklahoma in that car.
01:44:10
I don't know how they knew that, but that's the story. I want to say what I think it is, but it's inappropriate.
01:44:18
What? Don't tell me. I won't. Tell me. Just his hair was blown back. You made me say it, and now I'm the fucking bad guy.
01:44:33
It's not... It's sad. but within sad things that's when my mind starts going isn't there something funny about this sad
01:44:43
thing that we could say and that's when you laugh at a woman who just told you her sister's dying
01:44:48
that's how the world works that's yeah how are you doing i'm all right are you warm you're hot you're warm am i hot yeah okay okay
01:45:01
So Sandra's a suspect, but she's totally uncooperative. She won't speak to anyone, and she won't let anyone speak to her daughters,
01:45:10
who are older now. And at this time, she becomes known as the Black Widow in Dallas.
01:45:17
In high society, Dallas starts talking mad shit about her all the time. And like, do you know about this thing?
01:45:22
Do you know this thing she did? And everyone's like, oh, fuck, this woman's crazy.
01:45:25
There were probably parties planned specifically to talk shit about her, Because that's the third husband sheet that's died, right?
01:45:32
Yeah. In their purview. Right. You'd be like, buy the canapes. We have shit to talk about.
01:45:40
Come over now. Break out the caviar. Everybody, get a scoop of caviar and sit down.
01:45:46
I'm going to tell you something. Exactly. So, also, which is highly unusual, the FBI fucking gets in onto the murder probe.
01:45:55
And they're like... Oh, I thought you meant the gossip. Oh. FBI, guess what I heard.
01:46:04
Sorry. She's, of course, a suspect. When they get a phone call from an anonymous woman called the Highland Park Deep Throat,
01:46:12
which is like troublesome on so many levels. It's not creative, first of all. It makes everyone think of JFK and Nixon.
01:46:25
Is someone's dad here tonight? I mean, absolutely. He hates us. At least four of them.
01:46:31
And then she scrimps again on funeral expenses. Least expensive casket. Convince his friend to cover the burial bills because she forgot her wallet at the funeral.
01:46:41
Okay. Okay, bitch. No. But like, you're going to a funeral. You're not going to be like, let me grab my wallet.
01:46:48
You know what I mean? No, yes, you are. Your wallet's in your purse. You're not a man.
01:46:53
You didn't forget it on the counter. It's all in that one satchel that women have carried since the dawn of time.
01:47:00
So go ahead and throw that on your shoulder every time you leave the house and that would never happen to you.
01:47:05
You're right. Imagine walking into a funeral freehand like that. Just like, hey, I'm grieving.
01:47:14
Where do I put my hands? It makes no sense. It's that friend who always goes out with that and didn't want to carry her purse.
01:47:20
And so you have to pay for her dinner, except you have to pay for her husband's funeral.
01:47:24
God. That's like high society scumbag action right there. Okay. And she was late for the services.
01:47:35
Of her own husband's funeral? Yeah. She doesn't give a shit. No. She arrived at the very last minute, dressed the nines in a fucking mink coat.
01:47:49
No, no, no. No. Shit. She rolled up like ludicrous at that funeral She just like hey she like what up Call me
01:48:07
Call me. That's, oh my God. Jesus. And by this time, she had gotten the $220,000 from the life insurance.
01:48:21
less than a year after his death she gets the fuck out of dallas for good because i think everyone is
01:48:27
just talking so much shit just like sorry let me light this torch real quick yeah relocates to marin marin county oh that's in the north bay of california right near you
01:48:41
kind of near me okay marin county is the richest county in california i believe she yeah and my
01:48:48
county it was Sonoma county with which we had the most uh chickens proud proud fact
01:49:00
impressive okay so then of course she's still hot and beautiful and no one knows she changes her name
01:49:06
no one knows her past uh and so one man loans her 23 000 there another man loans her 70 000
01:49:14
dollars, the dude she's hooking up with. Neither of them saw Penny have it back, even though
01:49:18
they had both brought her to court. So she moves around a lot from there, using social
01:49:24
security numbers of other people, takes out credit cards and other people's names, including
01:49:30
her three kids, of course, whose fucking credit she destroyed, which like, oh, I always hate
01:49:35
those stories. That's your least favorite part of the story. Credit is so important.
01:49:39
Good credit. In 2006, she resurfaces in North Carolina and began using the name Camille Bowers.
01:49:50
And she tells everyone that she is not a nun, but like a religious person, I guess.
01:49:57
And she does like, she goes to India to take care of children and build houses and stuff like that.
01:50:02
Wait, is this the Mother Teresa story? Yes. This is how Mother Teresa started. So she's telling all these people that.
01:50:11
And so she moves in with a woman named Sue Mosley. She's a 77-year-old woman who lived in a million-dollar home on the Carolina coast.
01:50:20
She's incredibly wealthy. And she was basically going to live in the house and take care of the housework.
01:50:27
And she'd get free room and board, which is like, that's fucking sweet. Sign me up.
01:50:32
So then, of course, she sets to work taking over this woman's finances. She collected tax records, rerouted her social security payments to a new account, took money off the mortgage, siphoned off the mortgage money.
01:50:46
She'd like intercept the money and they were and then she'd get the mail every day.
01:50:48
And it was like, your house is going to get foreclosed on. And she'd be like, shred.
01:50:52
Yes, that's how I do everything. So she just fucking uses all this woman's money.
01:51:00
She goes to the she's like, I'll go with you to the bank. Sure, let's run an errand.
01:51:02
And then like meets the teller. So they'd like know her. And she's like, I'm with her.
01:51:07
Whatever. So then her son Jim Mosley gets really suspicious and in early 2007 he comes
01:51:14
across a lengthy newspaper report in the Dallas Observer chronicling Sandra's life. Oh and the reason she left Marin is because in the D magazine fucking our
01:51:28
friend Skips Holland-Worth wrote like a tell-all about her and like people saw it Marin and she was like you're gonna get out of here. Are you serious? Yeah. So
01:51:37
So finally, working with police, there's with Jim, there's a sting, police sting, which sounds fun.
01:51:45
And on March 2nd, 2007, she's arrested in Charlotte, North Carolina, and she's charged with identity theft.
01:51:50
Throde. Throde? Fucking Throde is so much worse than fraud, you guys. Theft and fraud. Throde.
01:52:00
Theft and Throde. Let's make this easier, quicker. Throde. male theft, thief theft, and social security fraud.
01:52:10
Wait, sorry, but can you imagine you're like, there's like, oh, my elderly mom has a new young roommate
01:52:15
who really has an interest in her life and the bank. And then you pick up a magazine that has an entire article about this woman.
01:52:24
And how she maybe killed husbands and a woman. Yeah, murders people. Murders, maybe.
01:52:30
Fucking nuts. Okay. So because of that, new interest in the death of Alan is renewed.
01:52:39
Oklahoma City Police put new resources and manpower into the investigation. In February 2008, Sandra Camille Powers pleaded guilty to one count of identity theft.
01:52:50
And at her fucking trial, the mother of Alan is in the fucking audience just being like,
01:52:55
yeah, bitch, I'm going to come out. She wears a pin with her son's face on it just so she could.
01:53:00
She said, I wanted her to see his face and know that I'm fucking not giving up on this.
01:53:05
Yes. So, yeah. Fucking moms. Damn. Yeah. So she's in prison and they are looking into the death and they're not giving up on it.
01:53:16
Nice. That is your black widow, Sandra Bridewell. You guys. That was amazing. You know what I think would be fun?
01:53:31
We should ask Stephen, because, you know, Stephen puts that we find those pictures,
01:53:35
and then he puts them on those amortices, basically. We should tell him, put up one random picture at the end.
01:53:41
Because for some reason, I just want to press this button one more time. But there's nothing.
01:53:45
There's Betsy. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What if all the lights are now? I just put us into a vacuum.
01:53:53
Uh well that her with that Alan right there with her children Look how cute he is Wait and so is that her That her yeah She looks different in every picture
01:54:06
That wasn't her. The other one wasn't her. No, no, I know that. Then that's her there with him too as well.
01:54:14
But that doesn't look like the lady laying sideways with her weird 80s hair to me.
01:54:19
I think that's fair. Do you think it's a bunch of different women? Yeah. Finally, I get to say my theory.
01:54:27
We solve it. It's quadruplets. Okay, we're back. Are there any updates for that story?
01:54:37
There are some updates. No one has ever been charged in the death of Alan Rarig.
01:54:42
In 2024, true crime author John Leak released the book, The Meaning of Malice, On the Trail of the Black Widow of Highland Park.
01:54:50
It tells the story of Sandra Bridewell and presents new evidence and exposes how she evaded scrutiny by law enforcement.
01:54:57
So check that out. And the podcast Fatal Beauty also does a deep dive on Sandra.
01:55:01
So check that out as well. And then let's go back and listen to the hometown that we got at this live show.
01:55:11
Okay. Do we have time? Yeah, let's do a hometown murder, you guys. I was like under that thing. I was like in that table big time.
01:55:24
Okay, tell them the rules. Okay, listen. This is the hometown murder part where we want somebody to come up here and tell us your hometown murder.
01:55:31
We'd love it if it was local. We love it if it's short. You're not allowed to read off paper and you can't be so drunk that you can't follow your own line of thinking.
01:55:39
You have to be able to tell your story concisely. Can we get... Uh... Oh, God. Oh, my God.
01:55:48
Don't panic. I'm panicking. I'm panicking. Everyone looks so nice. How about you in this...
01:55:53
Yeah. You in the front. Oh, she made a face like... All right. She did. That's going to be good.
01:55:59
That's a good sign. There's Vince. Hi. Hi. Hi, Angela. Hi, Angela. Come get in here.
01:56:17
You stand in the middle. Cool shoes. Where are you from? Fort Worth. It's really bright.
01:56:27
I know. It's bright or you have to see all the people and it's scary. So you just have to go with lights.
01:56:33
Okay, so I went to high school with the killer. We hung out together. He was a jerk though.
01:56:39
of me for being fat. Fuck him. Yeah, so y'all didn't cover anything Fort Worth, but we had
01:56:46
a serial killer in the 80s. Well, wait, did you come up here to admonish us? Because you'll
01:56:55
get fucking kicked off this stick. No, mine's really good. Don't kick me off. Please don't.
01:57:02
Okay. Okay. So September 1984, there was a girl named Ginger Hayden, and her mother found her murdered in her apartment bedroom.
01:57:13
She had been stabbed 57 times. Fuck. And I went to high school with Ginger, and she was hanging out with all the same people I hung out with,
01:57:21
but for whatever reason, that summer I didn't hang out with them, so I didn't know Ginger well.
01:57:27
But it was a cold case. I do remember I went to her funeral and that was one of the saddest things ever. Yeah
01:57:33
But so for years they didn't know who did it. They for 26 years They didn't know but they thought it was either the boyfriend the neighbor or there's actually a rapist who lived in the apartments too
01:57:46
Like pick one great Great complex my parents moved just there later They're like interesting stuff's happening over there
01:57:58
Ginger lived over there. Oh. But yeah, 26 years later, the DNA showed that this guy Shane,
01:58:07
we all actually knew he did it, and he kind of freaked out six months later after the murder and left.
01:58:13
He said, you guys thought I think I did it, and he left and nobody ever saw him again,
01:58:17
which is one of those, okay, instantly you know he's the one. Yeah. But yeah, so now he's serving a life sentence in prison.
01:58:24
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So he was one of the kids who hung out in the group? And was he her boyfriend?
01:58:33
Or he was in love with her? He was in love with her, but she was with somebody else.
01:58:37
And they didn't look into him. They never suspected him. Oh, they did. They just couldn't prove it.
01:58:42
Yeah, and the good old DNA, our friend DNA. Yeah. Oh, my God, that's amazing. Yeah, it was really weird because when the trial started happening,
01:58:51
there was a few of us girls who always kind of kept up with it, and we kept writing to the reporters going,
01:58:55
are you going to cover it? Well, when it came about, the judge wouldn't let the reporters in, would not let them have TV cameras.
01:59:04
So most of the local news didn't really cover it. But this one reporter wrote about it, and she quoted me saying, we never forgot her.
01:59:13
That was not me saying I was her friend, because that would be disrespectful, because I didn't know her that well.
01:59:18
But all of a sudden, 48 Hours is calling me, and different reporters are calling me.
01:59:21
And I'm like, no, I can't. But this one guy said that. But it was so funny, the guy from 48 Hours was like, you went to high school with my uncle.
01:59:30
And I was like, dude, you hadn't get 48 hours. Oh my God. I did not let myself get interviewed.
01:59:40
Okay. Nobody else would either because they were afraid if he was found not guilty that he'd come after me.
01:59:46
But he's guilty and he's away forever. He's away. Oh, good. Oh my God. Oh my God, that was amazing.
01:59:51
Great job. Here. Should I get into this? Yes. Here, you get the red flag! Good job, Tom.
02:00:00
What was your name again? I'm Angela. And by the way, my niece is with me. We have the VIP.
02:00:05
You get to meet her. Oh, great. Her husband's family knew the eyeball killer. Oh.
02:00:13
Oh, honey. Where'd she go? I see her. She's laying on the floor. Let's hear it for Angela, everybody.
02:00:20
That was amazing. Great job. Oh, my God. What a perfect ending. What a perfect ending.
02:00:30
Okay, we're back. George, you want to give any updates for that hometown? Sure, there are no updates, but Shane Absalon remains in prison,
02:00:41
serving a life sentence for Ginger Hayden's murder. All right, well, let's move on to the title then.
02:00:46
This episode was originally titled Live at the Majestic Theater in Dallas, but there's some suggestions for what we could name it today.
02:00:54
Let's name it a trough of mac and cheese. I want that right now so bad. AKA everything I ate on tour for five years, basically.
02:01:03
And then I deserve raccoons. For sure you do. We all do. A four massage with raccoons There also cults cults cults which is you talking about Basically both of our stories Yeah Kind of culty Yeah And then the barfing arc Well that that rewind
02:01:20
This is what this show is. We've done it. You did it. And we're actually going to say goodbye from way back in 2017, Dallas.
02:01:29
These shows have been so fucking incredible. We knew it was going to be good because you guys from the beginning of this podcast have had this area in Houston.
02:01:41
Sorry, both places have had the highest number of listeners for our podcast. That's incredible.
02:01:48
Across the board. Yeah. You guys have been so supportive of us and we appreciate it so much.
02:01:57
Everyone we've met this weekend has been so kind and every show has been so much fun and supportive.
02:02:01
And fucking loud. You guys are so awesome. It really, um, it sounds super cheesy, but we really mean it.
02:02:11
The fact that this is what we get to do for a fucking living now is the funnest and most exciting thing,
02:02:16
and it's because of your support. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for listening.
02:02:23
And of course as always stay sexy And don get better Bye you guys Thank you Cheap Caribbean Summer Savings Event is here Right now get instant savings on vacation packages to Cancun Jamaica and the Dominican Republic
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02:05:01
Goodbye.