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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid [Music] it's so morbid here it's so morbid
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because it's the day after the [ __ ] scandaval finale yeah you're gonna have to bear with us for
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like a moment here because maybe a few moments the Vanderpump Rules Super Bowl has begun it started really yeah the
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playoffs have begun I would say we had the finale of Vanderpump Rules last night I know some of you are like
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Skip Skip sipped and that's okay it's okay but for those okay to be lame who partake those of you who celebrate oh my
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God was that or was that not the most infuriating thing you've ever seen like we've seen a lot of cheating
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go down on this show yeah we have never seen cheating to this level go down on this show when Sandoval walked into
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Raquel's LED in Galaxy lit apartment Mama grow up I left my soul left my body when Sandoval called Raquel Ariana and
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she still was like I oh my God I was I was beside myself I was so beside myself on the couch are
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you team he absolutely [ __ ] said I love you and then said he didn't say it or you team he said they love you he
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definitely said I love you a girl I saw on Tick Tock literally like slowed it down and he said I love you why are you
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playing mind games with your mistress he's a lot I like what he's a lot they're both really disgusting his the
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way he talked to Ariana last night I was like Ariana you [Music] it works it absolutely worked look at
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her flourishing out here in these streets when Kristen did that spell with her I we looked at each other and we
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were like that [ __ ] worked because look at her that's why we used to sell it like she doesn't even give a [ __ ] we
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have saw a night up in here too and last night watching Ariana on Watch What Happens live in the Revenge dress of the
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century I showed John and I was like I was like tell me this isn't a goddess that we should like worship at her feet
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also how do you cheat on that exquisite looking human snack being they always cheat down always but like how do you
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even cheat period and remember I I think I asked my ex-boyfriend straight out because he was like a big old cheater
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yeah and I asked him one of the times because I was like I just really like to get inside on this because like I've
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never actually met somebody that does this kind of heinous [ __ ] I'm not a monster like you to tell I was like so
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can I interview you real quick I was like why uh why that girl like what what's that about because he literally
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said I was like why is it always like this is making me feel uncomfortable and he was like yeah it's just really he's
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like it's easy it's easier wow and I was like wow you really just you just gave that just right up like just I don't
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want to have to work for the cheating no it's so true but they [ __ ] worked for
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this I mean they hid that or tried to hide this [ __ ] for months and months and
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months and months they'll work to continue it but they don't want to work to have to get it started
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I just and Sandoval did not work to get this started I mean well yeah Rachel was
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ready and willing to start this whole thing and the fact that he had the [ __ ] audacity to blame it on
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Ariana like oh she if she had just followed me what if she just followed me what about that thing that you build
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throughout a nine-year relationship called trust one of my favorite parts and don't worry we'll get to the case
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but we just gotta spout this out if one of my favorite Parts was that it definitely was Ariana's fault because
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she was just never in a place to for him to tell her that he was cheating on her
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for seven months The Vibes were never right but he literally said she was just never open to hearing it I'm sorry when
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are you open to hearing that your partner of almost 10 years has been having an affair with your one of your
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best friends for seven months when will you ever be in a place of like you know what I'd love to hear that let's sit
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down and chat I'm really open to hearing something catastrophic today so let's sit down and you can just tell me
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whatever you want and then just like one more small thing and then we'll get on with it him like her trying to talk to
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him and him just like taking the longest [ __ ] pause to take a sip of that drink
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because he had to think of what he was saying next because he just can't are you he can't human and also I feel like
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he had to get like an advertising moment in there we're advertising right now well and he just he doesn't know how to
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human like he had to like take a minute and be like how do I human in this moment so you know unreal if you don't
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watch guys get on it get on it peacock has um a whole like playlist basically of
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the most important episode oh there you go watch I don't think that would work but I
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think they would catch on to that one but you know you never know yeah you know but yeah so Vanderpump aside I
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didn't think I'd have to say that Scandal oh my goodness here's another Scandal for you cheaters everywhere
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theme of the episode today is cheater cheaters um this is part two of the Pam smart Greg smart series it's not really
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a series it's just a two-parter party but when we left off in part one we got all the Yucca details about Pam and
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Billy's um quote-unquote relationship it's hard for me to call it a relationship because um she's an adult
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and he's a child yeah so that's hard they're crime we heard about that uh we heard about Pam and her husband Greg's
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relationship becoming way more toxic and finally how she asked her teenage lover
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at this point I believe he's 16 year old Billy Flynn to kill her husband oh so if
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you don't remember from part one let me just give you like a quick little recap the plan was for
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Billy to go into the house through the basement Pam was going to leave that basement door unlocked Billy would wait
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there for Greg to get home he would shoot him and Stage the scene to be a robbery and remember Pam would be like
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she would get a whole Alibi out of this because she would be away at some kind of school board meeting okay like we
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said in part one Billy had um no gun no car no license and he also wasn't quite sure how he felt about murdering a human
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wow so the first time Pam asked him he couldn't go through with it but like we know she lost it on him but at the very
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end of part one we heard that Billy had another quote-unquote opportunity because there was another school board
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meeting that Pam was going to be away at so now let's get into exactly how Pam Billy and some of Billy's friends
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actually did carry out their plan to commit murder so if you remember from part one two of
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Billy's best friends were J.R and Patrick uh who was known as Pete and they were the ones who liked to work on
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uh junk cars together in JR's front yard yes they were the first best friends that Billy made when his family had
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moved to Seabrook three years earlier and they were both very instrumental in helping Billy get through life when his
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father died their families all knew them as like the Three Musketeers they did literally everything together in fact
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there wasn't a lot that they wouldn't have done for each other oh and that statement was about to be taken to the
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next level uh-oh uh so the first time Billy brought up the idea you know the one about killing a whole ass man to his
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friends was the the first or second week of April okay can't be like too short but he told his two friends that there
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would be a lot in it for them once the worst part was done which he said obviously was killing Greg they could
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take any valuables that they wanted from the house oh fantastic yeah Silver Linings yeah woohoo so one of afternoon
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Ralph Welch who I mentioned it in part one he had been staying with JR okay uh he like got kicked out of his house so
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he was staying at the LA time house he had a cousin over J uh Ralph did that ended up eavesdropping on a conversation
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between Billy Pete and Jr about the murder oh damn they're sloppy so rather than like contact authorities or tell
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someone the cousin who's Rey Ray Fowler Ray Fowler just decided he wanted in on it like instead of going to anybody and
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being like hey they're gonna kill someone he was like oh yeah like can I get it what can I get out of like what's
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up wow everybody yeah a piece of [ __ ] how I always wonder how we say it every time how do these people
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find each other it's so wild to me it really is now Rey was a few years older than Billy and his friends uh Ray was
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18. he already had way more than his fair share of run-ins with the police and the most recent was uh his four
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month four month stay at the Rockingham County House of Corrections he had already served time oh okay yeah no big
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deal he said he was most interested in the burglary and he would help with the murder if he had to but oh okay he was
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really just there to burglar burglarize the house yeah absolutely now that he had a full team assembled though Billy
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was like okay like I guess we should start looking for a weapon so that we can carry out this murder now a lot of
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the kids involved thought that finding the gun would be the easiest part of their plan I don't really know why we
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should be able to do that that's why but they were surprised at what a hard time
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they were having so that's when they decided that they should find a large hunting knife as a backup plan a large
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hunting knife as a backup plan your backup plan is to stab this man hand-to-hand combat with a hunting knife
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like and you're worried about shooting him like you can tell that these are just kids
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kids like they're like are not developed it's wild so yeah they they decided to look for a
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large hunting knife as a backup plan but you know they were still going to look for a gun now while the other boys kept
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on trying their different connections to find a gun Billy went to Pam and he was
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like Hey we're still having trouble looking for a car to use since you know none of us have a license
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and she was like oh my God that's fine I have a Honda CRX and you guys can use it
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I'll park it behind the building on the night of the school board meeting I'll leave the key in the ignition take off
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as soon as you get there okay no problem yeah So the plan did come to fruition for the
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first time in mid-april Billy packed a duffel bag of dark clothing that he was going to change into and the four boys
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Billy Pete Ray and Jr loaded into Pam's car which was parked behind the building
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like she said it was going to be and they started making their con their way to the condo in Derry but as they were
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driving Billy was getting way more anxious the closer they got he's starting to freak the [ __ ] out he didn't
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want to go through with the murder anymore and he actually started giving Rey Fowler the wrong directions so that
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they would get lost it's like my guy just stop like you don't want to do this and don't have anything in the world is
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telling you not to including your own conscience which apparently you have seriously
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so some so they did end up getting lost but somehow Ray finally did figure out his way to the condo but when they got
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there Greg had already gotten home so already the plan was [ __ ] and so they felt like they had missed their window
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so they headed back to Hampton also I can't help but think of Greg in that moment like just carrying out his
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normal night in his own home having no idea how close he was to the people that were gonna murder him that's what's
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crazy to me is he had no idea these kids were driving around just waiting and like and that they literally the plan
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was in motion right like they got to his condo and they very well would have been
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inside had he not gotten home before they got there that's so sad it's so sad it's just so scary yeah now when Billy
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went to Pam and explained what happened she was just the same as last time probably worse absolutely furious with
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him she was like if you love me as much as you said then you would stop making excuses you'd follow through she went
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with the whole I don't know if we should be together anymore if you can't do this
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for me wow what a piece of [ __ ] yeah a piece of [ __ ] this is the second time
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now that she's done this so finally Billy broke down and he said next time I won't fail
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oh my God bail like no you're failing if you're murdering someone that's a big old failure like go down the right path
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here Billy and that's walk away it's so sad to see how many times he almost did but she brought him right back into her
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[ __ ] Tangled one she knew that what that he could be manipulated when he was so the next time came a few weeks later
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on May 1st when Pam was once again scheduled to be at a school board meeting so p and Jr agreed to help a
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second time but now they decided that they wanted to be paid wow so not only did they want the valuables at the house
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they wanted payment so Billy went to Pam about this and she was like okay I'll give them a thousand dollars each but
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I'm gonna pay it out in installments of fifty dollars per week so it doesn't seem suspicious
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oh yeah you paying these two kids for literally no reason at all is not suspicious yeah that would be suspicious
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yeah it's just the amount that's all that's crazy you're insane so otherwise the murder was just to move forward like
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Pam had planned all along now in the days leading up to the Murder She made sure that they weren't gonna [ __ ] it up
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this time she drove around the neighborhood with Billy and Cecilia pointing out where they should park the
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car so that they wouldn't be noticed sneaking into the condo and Jr agreed to take one of his
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father's guns to use but they still planned on bringing the knife with them just in case
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and this time they were taking j.r's grandmother's car oh man they drove in grosser and grocer
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they drove a Nana's car to commit murder so in the morning of May 1st Greg went to work he did some paperwork returned a
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couple phone calls and then he ducked out of the office early the reason he left early was because he was going to
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be having dinner with a few clients that evening but in the meantime he went to his
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parents house he played with his little niece chatted with his parents fixed a flat tire and then went off to all his
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appointments so it was 8 30 at night by the time he finished up with his clients
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and headed back home to Derry and by that time all the arrangements had been made Pam had left the basement door
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unlocked and she told the joy the boys where all the jewelry were was all the valuables told them exactly where they
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could find everything damn and she said the rest of the details she didn't want to know oh okay I don't want to know I
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was like but you do know this entire thing from beginning to end yeah and I'll let you do it I'll let you deal
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with it and live with that yeah but I don't want to know the details yeah [ __ ]
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you so it was still light out when they all arrived in Derry so they drove around a
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little bit before Jr parked the car in a shopping plaza near Misty Morning Drive
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Billy and Pete sat in the back seat they were tap excuse me taping their fingers
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so that they wouldn't leave fingerprints they taped their fingers Jesus then Billy loaded the 38 revolver that Jr had
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taken from his dad's collection and once the sun went down they Billy and Pete the two of them crept around the back
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side of the condo until they found the door that led to Greg and Pam's unit the basement door
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no they made their way inside Billy had to chase around the dog who was barking and growling and he was like ah get the
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[ __ ] out of my house but like that Billy got him into the basement and this is
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like a tiny dog I said yeah it's a what is it a shitzu I was gonna say it's a little guy exactly so then once the dog
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was out of the way they headed upstairs they ripped apart the couple's bedroom Pete threw everything of value into a
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suit a pillowcase that he'd taken from their bed wow and then they did the same thing on the first floor they turned
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over side tables lamps just grabbed whatever they thought was valuable Pete grabbed a knife from the kitchen and cut
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open multiple pillows on the couch and just like spread the stuffing out across the living room floor I guess for uh
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dramatic effect I was like what was the point of that yeah like was that just for fun like I
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don't think robbers slice pillows no I mean I don't know but maybe it's weird so once they felt like they had
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sufficiently ransacked the house Billy and Pete sat in the dark just waiting for Greg to get home and as they waited
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they talked about the best way to subdue him when he finally did walk in the door
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Billy thought that it might be a good idea to wait in the closet and jump out when Greg finally walked in
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or he suggested that maybe they should throw a towel over his head when he arrived to like disorient this man walks
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into his house and they throw a towel over his head they're just sitting there deciding like what they're gonna do now
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finally they settled on a strategy Pete would wait behind the door and surprise Greg when he walked in and then Billy
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would turn off all the lights and close the door now a few minutes after they settled on
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their plan they watched Greg's truck pull into the driveway so in the excitement and anxiety that
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they were having Billy and Pete's positions got switched and Billy ended up behind the door okay so Greg walked
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in the front door he flicked on the hall light and called out to the dog everything was eerily silent for a few
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seconds and then Billy jumped out from behind the door and grabbed Greg by his shoulders so obviously he's like stunned
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so he yells out and he pulls back hard but before he could get away Pete rushes over and he rushes up behind Greg and
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pushes him to the floor then he turns off the lights and closes the door now when he turned back Billy
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and Billy had Greg on the floor in front of the stairs just beating him in the face while Greg was just trying to block
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any of the blows this man just walked into his house into his home to this chaos after a full day of work after
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spending time with his family earlier just being a normal [ __ ] diet so Billy's beating the [ __ ] out of him
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so Pete rushes over and grabs Greg by the hair and slams his head into the wall they like attacked him oh my God
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and Pete screams at him get down on your knees and he lunged forward slightly with the knife in his hand to make Greg
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do what he wanted to say so Greg did as he was told and he said just don't hurt me dude oh my God he repeatedly asked
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about the dog like where's the dog where's the dog oh and Pete finally told him nobody had hurt the dog and then
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Pete demanded that Greg take off his wedding ring and give it to them ew and Greg said I can't give it to you my wife
00:19:04
would kill me so he had obviously no idea that his wife had orchestrated this whole thing
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and he's thinking about her getting mad at him oh my God up until the very end which I'm sorry that tells you exactly
00:19:17
who Pam was that he was like he is his whole life is being threatened right now and he's like I can't give you this ring
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she'll get mad at me even if it's me giving it to robbers like wow damn that should tell you everything you need to
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know right there so telling like the horrific irony in that statement oh that's awful my wife would kill me like
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that's really awful it's terrible and just him saying like don't hurt me and him saying like where's the where's the
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dog like worrying about everything else around like I just oh that's like really
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gut-wrenching that's the perfect word for it so they fumbled around with his wallet they were procrastinating until
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there was finally nothing left to do but to kill him so from the moment they started talking about the the plan to
00:20:00
kill Greg Pete had been confident that he was going to be able to do it without a second thought Pete was like I can do
00:20:06
it he was boasting to his friends telling them that he was actually curious to know what it would be like Oh
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shut the [ __ ] up he was saying he was looking forward to it uh these kind of idiots who like later or when you hear
00:20:18
that they're like yeah I'm looking forward to it's like I can't wait get so wrecked yeah
00:20:23
wrecked my guy like that's given dark-sided Sinister dark side but now he was faced with the
00:20:32
reality of actually murdering a human of course so things felt a little different
00:20:36
than he thought they might that's the thing I'm like you're disgusting for like play play acting like oh yeah I'm
00:20:42
actually looking forward to it it's like [ __ ] you dude okay yeah you're [ __ ] up
00:20:46
and now there's a man sitting in front of you on his knees begging for his life what are you gonna do exactly piece of
00:20:52
[ __ ] and he couldn't handle it later during the trial Pete would testify that Greg's comments about the wedding ring
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and his excuse me his pleas for his life made him in that moment regret what they
00:21:02
were doing of course it did so you should have stopped you should have stopped and you should have said my guy
00:21:08
your wife sent us to do this and we don't want to do it I so imagine if they had done that so wish that the story
00:21:14
ended that way and she went away for like attempted murder or conspiracy that's the thing like this should have
00:21:20
been like these if these little boys and that's the worst part about this children yeah had the wherewithal or the
00:21:29
you know any kind of moral compass here to stop and go I can't do this I was sent here to kill
00:21:36
you and I don't want to do it and I was sent here by your wife so you need to get the [ __ ] out of this marriage and
00:21:42
you and we gotta go away like like we're so sorry that would be alive these kids
00:21:48
would be you know they would have gotten in trouble but then it wouldn't be what
00:21:51
they're in trouble for now and in the end they would have been the heroes of the story they would have saved his life
00:21:56
that's the thing they would have turned around and been the ones that sat there and went you know what what the [ __ ]
00:22:01
were we thinking agreeing to do this and they can take their consequences but it
00:22:05
wouldn't have been the consequences they get now it would have been we thought about it we had a we had a heart like
00:22:12
and to think now and to hear now that like that kid sat there and regretted it and before you were doing it but being
00:22:20
like I don't even want to be here but he still did it it's like my guy you had a
00:22:26
chance and you didn't take it so whatever the [ __ ] you got after that you deserve absolutely and it's so
00:22:32
frustrating absolutely what a frustrating story it really is it's it's just terrible yeah so in the moment when
00:22:38
Pete realized that he couldn't do it he looked to Billy and nodded his head in the direction of the revolver that was
00:22:44
in Billy's jacket pocket so Billy knew what that meant obviously he grabbed the gun from his pocket he pulled back the
00:22:50
hammer and held it right near Greg's head the three of them stood there Pete was
00:22:55
still gripping Greg by the hair and Billy was holding the man to excuse me holding the gun to the man's head for
00:23:01
what he would later say to a jury felt like a hundred years oh and Greg is just sitting there just sitting there with a
00:23:08
gun to his head he's gonna happen right because at that point he's probably like
00:23:12
are they even gonna do this are they just trying to scare me like what's going on here oh none Billy inhaled
00:23:18
deeply and before he pulled the trigger he said God forgive me baby God I I don't know him I don't know
00:23:27
much about him but I don't think he'll he's gonna forgive there is a God and you believe in that God that God does
00:23:33
not forgive you my friend I can tell you that much you just stuck a gun to some man's head like as his wife that you are
00:23:39
[ __ ] told you to that's not a real friend if he's gonna forgive you yeah I don't think that's something that just
00:23:45
gets written off in the book I'm also like did you just God are you there it's me Margaret in the middle of a murder
00:23:50
did you just God that's what you just did me like how dare you [ __ ] how dare you [ __ ] you like I'm not religious but
00:23:58
how [ __ ] dare you know me either that's just like disgusting to bring God into that situation is [ __ ] like what
00:24:05
a mockery that is it is absolutely or it feels like at least I would think so so
00:24:10
with the plan completed the bull uh the both of them ran for the back door Pete grabbed the pillowcase full of the
00:24:15
valuables and then they ran through the back door they jumped the railing on the
00:24:20
back porch and ran there was a big field behind the condo so they ran through that until they saw the headlights of
00:24:26
Jr's grandmother's car oh my God can you imagine if I was his grandma I'd be like
00:24:31
you have been written out of my will oh yeah and then some you've been written out of all the wills you've been written
00:24:37
out of my life you didn't even get your own will that's what I would say I'm revoking you're right you don't have one
00:24:42
nope I mean what do you really have at that point but the plan was for the other two boys to wait in the parking
00:24:47
lot until Billy and Pete returned but something had changed I think they got nervous so they were parked in a
00:24:53
different area than they should have been so both boys were falling over themselves as they were sprinting
00:24:58
through the grass until finally they got to the car and they heard themselves into the back seat and shouted for them
00:25:03
to drive now Billy and Pete changed in the back seat as they were just drove along the
00:25:08
back roads back to Seabrook they threw a ton of items of clothing out of the window as they drove but what didn't get
00:25:15
thrown out of the window went into the black devil or went into the duffel bag which they would ditch on the wood in
00:25:21
the woods on the way back okay I'm so excited I'm like he's so excited to tell the story yeah
00:25:26
so to cut the attention JR this is [ __ ] this is absolutely wild they were cutting the tension Jr and Rey started
00:25:34
singing shoe fly pie you fly it's like this song I looked it up it's really [ __ ] weird I was like
00:25:41
what even is that it's like a it's almost like a like like one of those songs like a like a
00:25:48
Shabbat kind of like a Shabbat I don't know how to describe this I need to look this up now it's very it's like old tiny
00:25:55
like what you would play at the Gilmore Girls dance along thing at the like dance Marathon yeah exactly so Billy was
00:26:02
like this made him feel better he was starting to smile it made my [ __ ] stomach turn and Pete actually got
00:26:08
Wicked pissed off at them for singing and was like shut the [ __ ] up like I don't want you to sing right now damn he
00:26:14
wanted to get the hell out of Derry and as far away from the condo as he possibly could
00:26:19
so Pam she got back home to Derry around 10 30 p.m once everything was done she of course pretended to be shocked and
00:26:27
horrified when she found Greg's Body neighbors could hear her screams from several houses away they said and it was
00:26:34
followed by her yelling help my husband my husband wow you piece of [ __ ] an actual monster so she ran to the house
00:26:42
next door and she said something was wrong with her husband and that they needed to call 9-1-1 like you know that
00:26:49
he's dead you just found him lying in a pool of his own blood at the bottom of your stairs
00:26:54
now Derry New Hampshire hamster at the time had a super low crime rate and homicides were like super out of the
00:27:01
ordinary oh so I I actually to drive that point home even further before Greg's murder there had been zero
00:27:09
murders in the town that year oh damn zero wow so when officers arrived and they found Greg lying face down just
00:27:16
beyond the front door still dressed in his gray suit and coat they were shocked yeah now by the time they got there his
00:27:23
skin had been bruised up completely and there was a bit of blood coming from his
00:27:27
nose one of the officers checked for a pulse but obviously they weren't able to find one
00:27:32
and another neighbor who was actually a medical assistant offered to do CPR because at this point they're not seeing
00:27:37
that he's been like shot yeah so the officer that hadn't found a pulse rolled Greg over onto his back and that was
00:27:44
when they saw the Bullet Hole on the top of his head and they were like yeah CPR
00:27:48
is not necessary anymore so to the responding officers the scene seemed like what Pam had hoped it would
00:27:55
like Greg came home found somebody robbing his house and had been killed by The Intruders yeah outside the condo it
00:28:01
was absolute chaos because Pam screams had drawn all the neighbors outside dozens of people were just crowding
00:28:08
around the area outside of the house so Pam asked that somebody called Judy and Bill who remember lived like five
00:28:16
minutes away in the same complex yep and whoever called them just said that Greg
00:28:21
was quote very very sick are you kidding me so they rush over there thinking like
00:28:27
oh no like he does he have a stomach bug like yeah like what's going on no so they threw on their coats over their
00:28:33
pajamas and they ran over but they got stopped by the police at the perimeter of the scene and Judy was like what the
00:28:39
[ __ ] is going on and Pam just told her I don't know I was at school there was a meeting like being
00:28:47
super theatrical like over the top but giving nothing so luckily she was interrupted but also not luckily the
00:28:54
front door opened and an officer stepped out of the house and it was then that Greg's parents saw his body lying on the
00:29:00
floor oh my God and the officer came out and told them we can't help him he's already dead oh so the case called for
00:29:07
the presence of the Derry Police Captain who at the time was Captain Loring Jackson now he arrived to the scene
00:29:14
after it had already been cleared completely he was a veteran detective luckily like thank goodness we have
00:29:19
somebody who knows what they're doing here seriously he had 24 years on the job between Massachusetts and New
00:29:25
Hampshire and he had seen every kind of crime you could possibly see yeah now the other officers on the scene
00:29:31
obviously weren't a seasoned so he started taking over and just divvying out tasks yeah he wanted to be sure that
00:29:37
everything was properly properly documented and that all the the evidence was collected and cataloged correctly
00:29:43
that was like a big thing for him okay which it always should be yeah now some officers went out to check the field
00:29:49
beyond the complex and just about a hundred yards from the smarts back uh deck area Sergeant Vincent Byron found a
00:29:58
large carving knife stuck into the ground oh [ __ ] they left that they left the
00:30:05
knife behind why like I'm glad they did but like I think they must have dropped it on the way is all I can think of wow
00:30:11
but then actually no because it was stuck in the ground that's what I mean like why would they shove it into the
00:30:16
ground and run I don't know if they just had too much between the valuables that
00:30:19
they had stolen it's like drop a valuable my friend right not the actual like other murder weapons seriously and
00:30:26
then so they found the knife in the ground out there but then a few feet away from that uh that Sergeant there
00:30:32
found pieces of cardboard and plastic from Pam's jewelry box so he's like what the [ __ ] this like happened here yeah so
00:30:39
by 2 30 that morning the Derry Police got joined by the New Hampshire State Police Major Crimes unit who went over
00:30:45
the house a second time like it had already been totally cleared and then they were like we're gonna clear it even
00:30:50
further yeah took more photos got more evidence and took notes on literally everything then another group of
00:30:57
officers started going around to the neighbors who were like really over all very unhelpful they hadn't seen much
00:31:03
yeah or heard much but it's like whatever so according to almost everybody they talked to Greg was quote a very private
00:31:10
individual someone they never really got to know during the 18 months he and his
00:31:14
wife had lived in Derry see that's why it's important to know your neighbors my friends my neighbors never talk to me my
00:31:21
neighbors and I had a barbecue the other night and or no last night and it was it
00:31:25
was wonderful I love this delightful yeah they'll be on the lookout for like any weird [ __ ] that's the thing like
00:31:30
know your neighbors because like it's it's a good thing to get to be friends with your neighbors because then they're
00:31:36
on your that [ __ ] see like it takes a village my friends and if everyone's looking out for each other no [ __ ] gets
00:31:41
past you I was just thinking about it and my neighbors don't really talk to me but they talk to Drew what do you think
00:31:46
that means I don't know what that means that's weird I'm offended I just think I'm like you know what if you have a
00:31:51
chance to have like a tight-knit little neighborhood if you happen to be in there do it man yeah because everybody's
00:31:57
on that text chain and everybody's like what the [ __ ] was that car who say who's
00:32:01
did you hear that noise like everyone's on it I love it there's like an app now too that you think there is like keep in
00:32:07
touch with your neighbors and like or even like people like beyond your neighbors are like in close proximity I
00:32:12
mean my neighbors just have a text chain I think it's called like next door or something yeah I think you're right Drew
00:32:16
has it maybe that's why they talk to him yeah I think we we just have a text chain and as soon as like I think like
00:32:21
somebody on an outside Street got their uh car broken into oh [ __ ] everyone [ __ ] knew that that by the morning
00:32:27
everyone was checking each other's cars if you weren't at your house like oh my God I love it it's great that's ideal I
00:32:33
was like neighbors well this was also a time which is crazy to think about before cameras yeah
00:32:40
exactly before people had doorbells so it's even more important back then like that's why it is very helpful if your
00:32:46
neighbors can be like yeah we know that person you know but it can be on the lookout for like something weird is
00:32:53
happening over there I might step in exactly that's the thing if you don't know your neighbors they're not gonna
00:32:57
feel comfortable doing that exactly which it sucks that this was the case where they just they didn't know each
00:33:03
other they just didn't communicate and not for any reason it doesn't sound seems like it didn't happen which 100 it
00:33:09
doesn't happen a lot of times so and I also make it happen try to I think this was kind of more of a time where like
00:33:14
you minded your own business yeah that's what I mean so Pam she was just as unhelpful to the
00:33:20
investigators but obviously more pointedly she explained that she got home she found Greg on the floor and she
00:33:27
said quote having watched television shows like rescue 9-1-1 she decided against touching the body and instead
00:33:33
just started screaming for help okay it's like okay like what why did you have to mention that sorry there's a
00:33:39
fruit fly I do remember how what a choke hold that show had on all of us though rescue 9-1-1 I don't think I ever
00:33:46
watched that no I think it was before your time it was rescue 9-1-1 and Unsolved Mysteries were like back to
00:33:51
back unsolved mystery and Rescue 911 was intense really yeah it was very intense
00:33:56
I reenacted 9-1-1 calls but you heard the 911 call it was like our everyone's first Venture into True Crime I believe
00:34:03
yeah yeah mine was Unsolved Mysteries and Forensic Files yeah yeah a good one a good one no so obviously we all say
00:34:10
all the time how you know people are going to react differently to trauma and grief yeah but there was something off
00:34:16
about Pam's Behavior in the minds of the detectives she like they were I think they kind of tried to put it in the back
00:34:22
of their minds the more and more they got through the investigation but it was still there yeah You observe
00:34:28
you look at it and say okay everyone Grieves differently but when compiled upon other evidence you go okay that is
00:34:33
a little strange right like you just hold it in the back of your head and just put it together with the other
00:34:37
weapons and then you find like the supporting things to try it together yeah so she was super calm and super
00:34:44
composed which was not really what anybody expected from a woman who had uh just found her husband murdered in their
00:34:50
home a few hours earlier yeah but you know okay everybody's different I suppose yeah Different Different Strokes
00:34:57
for different folks in this case not so much not so much to detective Barry chairwicks I believe is how you say it
00:35:02
Pam seemed more anxious than sad weird upset she was nervous and he noticed that her eyes would Dart around the room
00:35:10
at different times throughout the interview which is so telling because you know who else's eyes do that
00:35:14
scandivals that's true but anyway he tried to remind himself that you know people act differently in these
00:35:19
situations I'll dismiss it right now as just another strange reaction to death but it's in my head but I will note it
00:35:25
so the next day the State medical examiner confirmed that of course the cause of death was the single gunshot
00:35:31
wound To The Head and the he the medical examiner estimated that it had occurred
00:35:37
just an hour or two before Pam arrived home which was correct now the wound itself was ragged which suggested to the
00:35:43
medical examiner that Greg had been shot at close range with somebody holding the
00:35:47
gun very close to his head which was also true but what was strange was that there was no gunpowder residue on the
00:35:54
wound and there were small pieces of lead on the scalp which indicated that the bullet started to fragment before it
00:36:01
struck Greg huh and even stranger there was no blood spatter at the scene like you would expect with this kind of crime
00:36:09
so the medical examiner was trying to figure this out like how that could have happened and he felt like somebody had
00:36:15
placed a pillow oh my God I was literally just gonna say yeah they placed the pillow on his head exactly so
00:36:21
that's what they thought like they they took a pillow or some kind of soft thing
00:36:24
in between Greg's head and the barrel of the gun almost like a silencer yeah but they couldn't find anything at
00:36:32
the scene to support that theory there was no pillow with a hole through it huh so and sadly that question would never
00:36:38
be answered huh so I don't know if maybe they took the pillow with them and it was one of the things they threw out
00:36:44
maybe on the way but they never answered that question oh that's interesting it's
00:36:48
it is yeah that's really interesting but I would think that's probably I'm sure that's it yeah like I think they were
00:36:55
conniving enough to say I think they saw it in a movie you probably I think they
00:36:59
saw it in a movie or Pam saw it on Rescue 9-1-1 and reiterated and they did it yeah exactly
00:37:05
now so obviously the cause of death was not that surprising to anybody everybody
00:37:09
knew that Greg had been shot but what they wanted to know obviously was who killed Greg and why
00:37:15
so while authorities were combing through evidence Pam was super happy to entertain reporters oh I'm sure and she
00:37:21
had so many theories as to what happened she told the dairy news I'm absolutely convinced someone was burglar
00:37:28
burglarizing our house and Greg just walked in like gee whiz Pam what made you think that yeah was that uh the
00:37:34
robbery scene was it the entire robbery scene that you set up was it like that the missing valuables from your home
00:37:40
that you orchestrated the ransacked house like yeah she also told reporters that in the day since she had found her
00:37:46
husband dead she'd woken up at 6am every day and called the police for updates but said that they quote she said that
00:37:53
quote they haven't even sat down with everything yet which is not true and also it's like oh
00:37:58
now we're gonna [ __ ] all over the police even though you know you set up this whole thing up right like wow like these
00:38:04
police who have no who haven't handled a murder yeah this week this week this year this month this year anywhere
00:38:11
anytime like that never handle murders right and like you know you did it and you're still being like it's their fault
00:38:17
like who's like trying to play the victim oh and it wasn't a [ __ ] it wasn't only their fault she was also
00:38:22
pissed at the neighbors oh of course she said she found it hard to believe that none of her neighbors heard anything on
00:38:28
the night of the murder wow I'm like you or frustrated this whole this holy you are throwing everyone
00:38:35
under the bus when you're a [ __ ] murderer at heart like are you kidding me like okay gaslighter McGee wow she
00:38:42
literally told reporters quote I've heard their stereo before and I know they've heard mine I know a gunshot
00:38:46
isn't a common sound in Derry New Hampshire but I'd at least look out the window
00:38:51
wow like yeah they didn't hear a gunshot because you probably told your boy there
00:38:57
to [ __ ] silence it and it's like you're a murderer at heart like you just don't have one you just didn't want to
00:39:03
get in trouble for it and you thought you could get away with it by having someone else do it yep but if you're
00:39:07
setting someone else up to get murdered by someone else you are a murderer absolutely like you are capable of that
00:39:13
absolutely and you're sitting here like saying that the neighbors are at fault when you know what you did the Neighbors
00:39:20
didn't hear anything so [ __ ] them and the police aren't working on this yet so
00:39:23
[ __ ] them damn like what yeah it's everybody else's fault she's crazy so uh police captain Loring was uh not pleased
00:39:31
to say the least that Pam was talking to the Press yeah because he had personally
00:39:36
told her not to Jesus he was like can you stop doing that please you think she would listen to them too to try to play
00:39:43
along with the yeah very Cooperative instead of making waves I don't know that they look at you a little heavier I
00:39:51
don't think she was capable of cooperating I think it's it in her mind it was her world and she was
00:39:57
orchestrating it how she saw fit man the spotlight was on her and she couldn't she couldn't help herself yup she
00:40:03
absolutely loved it so the investigators in Derry uh had been working on the case obviously even
00:40:09
though Pam said they weren't and they told her sharing any kind of info with the Press could be really damaging or
00:40:16
could even compromise their case yeah so they're like why the [ __ ] are you trying
00:40:20
to ruin our case lady and Lauren excuse me Lauren Jackson would later say that Pam was very defensive about talking to
00:40:27
the Press she said she didn't want to hear anything bad about the Press because she was one of them oh because
00:40:34
remember she wanted to work in the media and she did work in media shut up also you're not a reporter you're a volunteer
00:40:42
for project self-esteem yes humble thyself humble thyself [ __ ] you Pam but Jackson found her comment about being
00:40:50
one of the press very strange it really wasn't the only thing about her that he was gonna find strange as the
00:40:56
investigation went on and he still he was like her behavior it's [ __ ] weird for instance when she was allowed to go
00:41:03
back to the house after the scene had been cleared she started complaining about what a mess the investigators had
00:41:09
made in her home she also stepped right onto the bloodstain from where Greg's Body had been found and had the audacity
00:41:18
to ask them who was going to clean that up wow stepped on the bloodstain and said
00:41:27
who's gonna clean this up what what caused it you made this like you caused that and then you're mad that
00:41:36
we trashed your house trying to figure out who did this like what the what because the reason like this is all
00:41:44
doubly Triple E quadruply [ __ ] up because you're like you know that she did this yeah like she's causing all
00:41:51
these problems and bitching and moaning when she did this she made this all happen wow and like you're in I don't
00:41:59
know what it is like you're gonna ask who's gonna clean this up you orchestrated this and you can't even
00:42:04
[ __ ] clean it up that's the thing you wanted this baby clean it up if this was
00:42:08
a real like a real thing where like somebody had come in and robbed their house and killed her husband yeah who's
00:42:15
gonna clean up who's gonna clean that up totally because like you that's I can't
00:42:19
I never knew before like really getting into researching True Crime and all that
00:42:24
and learning about like aftermath ink and all that stuff and like 24 you know whatever that like victims are left yeah
00:42:33
to call someone to hire a whole team to come and clean up after their loved ones
00:42:38
like you have to pay for that like you have to pay for it like a lot of people don't know that and it's I never knew
00:42:42
that until we started this podcast and I'm sure a lot of people when it happens to them they don't know that no so they
00:42:47
come back to the house and they're like who the [ __ ] is going to clean this like
00:42:50
I can't clean this so if that was the case it's like yeah ask be like I don't know what's happening here but that's
00:42:56
the thing knowing that she did it it's like you need to clean this up you clean like get to work oh so
00:43:05
what was shitty was that the crime scene itself was kind of just as unhelpful as
00:43:10
the neighbors and Pam like they were hitting a lot of dead ends yeah obviously it was obvious that somebody
00:43:15
had ransacked the house but it didn't seem like your regular robbery so they're like they're confused here
00:43:21
because they're like yeah it seems like this happened but it's off a little bit yeah it's like disorganized actually
00:43:27
it's strangely organized they thought they were like what like it seems like there's uh differences in the ways that
00:43:35
some areas were trashed like some are more organized than others and so the investigators theorized that there were
00:43:41
two Intruders I was gonna say because I would think that would be like multiple people right off the bat exactly there
00:43:47
were also some more strange tidbits on the first floor of the home Greg's ring and his car keys were found underneath
00:43:53
his body and his wallet which still had all his credit cards tucked was was tucked safely away uh it was found by
00:44:01
his legs so they're like they didn't steal his car they didn't take his ring and his wallet full of his credit cards
00:44:09
is right here and why do they have him take off the ring I don't know like because my initial thought was that
00:44:18
my initial thought with that and Maybe I'm Wrong I Don't Know was that that was a an order from Pam as proof
00:44:27
that they had done it I could see that as they were supposed to bring that ring back that's what I assumed
00:44:32
was the like whole thing I thought she was like bring me that ring so I know you actually did it well she would have
00:44:38
known they actually did it when she got home so that like she wouldn't have had to do that I forgot that they didn't
00:44:43
meet before that like they didn't meet before she went home no she just got the car they got the car for where she had
00:44:49
parked it and then the whole thing was that she was gonna come home and find this okay that makes more sense so what
00:44:54
I think with the ring is that they probably I think Billy probably was like take it off it repeats I'd take it off
00:45:00
because like you know he's [ __ ] Pam now yeah that's true and then I think maybe in the haste of everything they
00:45:05
forgot to take the ring yeah because it's like why did you do that because I think they had fully planned on taking
00:45:10
that ring they just were stupid because like that's like what a last humiliation
00:45:16
for Greg right to make him remove that ring and then to leave it it's like wow you just did that just to do that like
00:45:24
that's even more [ __ ] up it's adding insult to it yeah it's just like that's really that's really gross it's [ __ ]
00:45:31
but so that's the thing investigate are like okay so there's clearly two Intruders but like they both suck like
00:45:36
that's weird what the hell very strange and they started thinking if somebody was going into a home to take everything
00:45:42
of value so much so that they were willing to commit a murder in the middle of it why wouldn't they take the most
00:45:47
valuable things yeah that's weird like even the car yeah it doesn't make sense so the investigators they still felt
00:45:54
like the theory of a robbery gone wrong wasn't a bad one but it had other flaws even beyond the valuables Left Behind
00:46:01
yeah it's like more nuanced it was going to start kind of like Falling by the wayside the whole their whole Theory
00:46:06
again why would these robbers even if they weren't the most experienced choose a time to rob a densely populated condo
00:46:14
when everyone was home and awake yeah that was another thing that they were like why if why would they do that and
00:46:20
they also reasoned that most burglars even Petty thieves they don't usually bring along a firearm and they're
00:46:26
usually not willing to kill someone yeah they just want to steal [ __ ] and leave
00:46:29
and if for some reason they did go against all of that and kill someone again why wouldn't they take the most
00:46:36
valuable things when they had already gone that far yeah exactly that's the thing you better take all the valuable
00:46:41
[ __ ] right so between Pam strange Behavior obvious enjoyment of the spotlight and the very many unusual
00:46:47
aspects of their crime scene some think about this murder wasn't adding up yeah but they they were struggling because it
00:46:54
wasn't adding up but then it wasn't leading them in the direction of the truth yeah
00:46:58
now back to back to Pam as far as she knew she had planned every aspect of Greg's murder perfectly and she almost
00:47:05
did which is scary yeah but what she didn't plan for was the impulsive stupidity of teenagers oh yes because in
00:47:13
the months before the murder Billy had told a good number of his friends about his sexual relationship with Pam and
00:47:19
most of the time they weren't even doing much to hide their Affair in public and in the weeks they had spent planning
00:47:26
the murder Billy had told those same friends the plot to kill Pam's husband so that they could be together
00:47:32
and he told most of those friends that what he believed to be true based on what Pam had told him Greg was abusive
00:47:39
toward her he was going to be the hero that saved her so he's just spilling the beans Left Right everywhere of course he
00:47:44
is he's a child yeah and as we know some of the people who he told about the plan
00:47:49
had become participants yeah and the ones who didn't they just kind of thought he was bluffing and trying to
00:47:55
seem tough which like we've been there we've done that yeah everybody stop but the day after the murder Billy and his
00:48:01
friends were back in school oh my God they just go back to high school they just went back to high school I'm pretty
00:48:06
sure it was like their junior year oh my God so and before his first class even started Billy was telling his friend Sal
00:48:13
Parks about what he'd done immediately now Billy and Sal had talked about the murder plot a number of times before
00:48:19
that day Billy had even shown Sal's sketches of the condo's floor plan that he made based on Pam's description wow
00:48:28
but um for some reason Sal never thought Billy was gonna go through with it guys you know you can't but that morning
00:48:37
when Sal asked Billy if he had gone through with the plan Billy nervously confirmed that yup they had killed him
00:48:43
the night before Oh my God now later that day Billy bought Sal lunch with the money that he'd stolen from Greg's
00:48:50
wallet just to prove it to him [ __ ] up and by the uh by the end of that afternoon he had told pretty much almost
00:48:57
all of his friends the gnarly details about what had happened now Sal was worried now that he knew all the details
00:49:05
he could be considered an accomplice so he was like I'm just gonna keep my mouth
00:49:08
shut about this entire thing like I'm not gonna say anything I I'm still like reeling about him buying lunch with
00:49:15
Greg's money with Greg's money yeah this is just wild now just like Billy Cecilia
00:49:20
Pierce she knew this whole thing had happened at this point and she had been an instrumental part of being a part of
00:49:27
it playing it so she found it difficult to keep what she knew to herself and on the morning of the murder Pam had
00:49:33
confided in Cecilia that the boys were going to follow through the plan that night so the next day a guidance
00:49:39
counselor came up to Cecilia because she knew that Cecilia had been close with Pam she called her into a meeting and
00:49:46
let her know what had happened to Pam's husband oh my God so Cecilia did her best to fake shock but later that night
00:49:52
when she got to her shift at Papa Gino's the secret was becoming too overwhelming
00:49:57
for her and she ended up confiding in a co-worker about it she told her co-worker Cindy butt what had happened
00:50:03
to Greg and Cindy said didn't you tell me about a friend that was planning on having their husband killed oh my God
00:50:09
and Cecilia said oh [ __ ] I forgotten I had told you that couldn't even keep track of the people
00:50:16
they had told what I forgot that I [ __ ] oh my gosh I told you that I forgot that I told you that
00:50:25
oh my God also imagine eating a [ __ ] Pizza that those two women had made for you and that convert that conversation
00:50:32
happened above your glorious Pizza I would not be happy hello Papa Gino's is not my fave oh I hate papa gina well
00:50:37
it's the big tires I mean you can eat it all you want I'm no hate to pop I mean a
00:50:41
lot of people love Papa chinos yeah anyways so Cecilia explains the rest of the story to Cindy and Cindy suggested
00:50:47
it would be best to stay out of it entirely she was like I don't think you need to tell more people about this I
00:50:52
think you need to shut your mouth yeah she basically said that if Cecilia had told her about it then other people
00:50:58
could definitely find that out and one of them might go to the police so she should shut her [ __ ] mouth my God but
00:51:04
at the same time Cindy there apparently didn't take her own advice and a couple weeks later she had some friends over
00:51:11
her apartment for drinks and she told all of them the entire story about Pam Billy and Cecilia
00:51:17
so there were two women there finally some people with scents in this [ __ ] town and they were absolutely shocked so
00:51:26
one of them 39 year old Louise Coleman went home and called the police finally finally finally somebody has contacted
00:51:33
the appropriate people in this situation finally someone calls the police and says Jesus shit's weird Jesus Christ she
00:51:41
would later tell a jury Louise there quote someone was killed and that bothered me to hear what I had heard I
00:51:46
figured any little bit was gonna help him because at that point police didn't know much of anything like I told him
00:51:51
it's hearsay if it helps it helps if it don't it don't but I feel like I did my civic duty which I'm like yes Louise you
00:51:58
did yeah okay thank you pat pat Louise now like the bad game of telephone it was though Louise Coleman's tip to the
00:52:08
dairy police got a lot of the facts wrong but luckily it was still enough to point investigators towards Cecilia
00:52:14
Pierce so detective sherwick's chair excuse me paid a visit to Cecilia and joined by
00:52:21
her parents they sat down for a formal interview and Cecilia told the detective that yup she did know Pam she met her
00:52:28
through an internship in the media center but she said I know nothing about the murder I insist I I know absolutely
00:52:33
nothing so then Pam is approached and she told detectives oh my gosh Cecilia would not
00:52:39
have anything to do with this of course not it's like yeah but what about you yeah but for her part she seemed Pam
00:52:46
there pretty unconcerned about the fact that investigators were circling closer and closer to her and her group of
00:52:52
[ __ ] teenage Misfits that she put together yeah it's like no one noticed this [ __ ] no one noticed it and now even
00:52:58
as they're encroaching upon them she's not worried about it no so by mid-may she had gotten a large sum
00:53:04
from Greg's life insurance and she seemed in a hurry to spend it she bought clothes and shoes for Cecilia in an
00:53:10
obvious to all of us attempt to buy her silence yep then she went electronic shopping with Billy and his friends my
00:53:17
God she also used some of the money to buy herself a new car she put down the first and last month's rent on a condo
00:53:24
in Hampton closer to Billy excuse me this is closer to Billy's mother's house I was just gonna say this
00:53:32
is so disgusting [ __ ] so she was doing her best to rein in this group of teens
00:53:37
and for the most part she was successful Cecilia would later say she was she just
00:53:41
really was convinced that no one was going to listen to the boys over an adult like she thought she was gonna
00:53:47
have everybody hook like that Sinker of course but what wasn't in her control was the people that the kids had already
00:53:53
confessed to and Louise Coleman's tip had pointed the investigators in the right direction but it would be a tip
00:54:00
from one of the few honest teams in the circle that would finally break the case
00:54:05
so remember Ralph Welch Rey's cousin so Ray was the one that drove the car yep and Ralph had nothing to do with it he
00:54:13
was just staying at JR's house yes he hadn't heard about this yeah so he had known about Pam and Billy's relationship
00:54:18
since it started Ralph there okay he was like I just said one of the kids living
00:54:22
in the household and since he was a close friend of Jr and Billy he was privy to all the information about what
00:54:28
had been going on but he was just trying to keep his head down and stay out of any trouble he had gotten into trouble
00:54:34
before and he was like trying to stay on a narrow path okay so he heard about the
00:54:38
murder and about his friend's involvement but he was still having trouble believing that they had anything
00:54:43
to do with it he was like you guys are [ __ ] like you didn't do this but by early June all the talk and
00:54:49
boasting from J.R Billy and Ray had started to get to him and all the rumors about Billy killing Greg started to seem
00:54:56
more likely than they had to him before so he confronted them he said did you do this and at first
00:55:03
they denied any involvement but eventually they told him the whole story thinking he wasn't going to tell anybody
00:55:09
so by the time they finished telling the story though he pretty much told them he
00:55:14
didn't know what he was going to do but it wasn't something he was going to keep
00:55:17
to himself he was like you guys [ __ ] up yeah like I you should I'm gonna be honest like shit's gonna go down he's
00:55:24
like I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do but I'm gonna do I'm gonna do something though so the next day uh
00:55:29
Ralph tried to make Pete Randall leave the last time house where he was staying okay so like two two guys here getting
00:55:37
in a fight yeah so they started fighting even more and it got physical okay they
00:55:41
beat the [ __ ] out of each other for a few minutes Pete ended up storming off with Jr and Ralph oh excuse me with J.R
00:55:47
and Ralph went inside the house where Jr's mom wanted to know why he was all [ __ ] up like he obviously looked like
00:55:53
he'd been in a fight yeah and Ralph just blurted out to her they used Vance's gun
00:55:58
to kill someone Vance's Jr's dad oh so Diane the mother obviously uh she had a few follow-up questions and once Ralph
00:56:07
had gotten through the whole story including the part where J.R stole one of his guns dads to kill Greg Vance Jr's
00:56:14
father so Jr's father what sorry Vance Jr's father okay went to check his gun collection there's a lot of players here
00:56:23
okay so sure enough he found that his 38 revolver had been cleaned and he was not
00:56:28
the one to have cleaned it so he took the gun straight to the Seabrook Police and the rest of the story slowly started
00:56:36
to fall into place now remember his son stole this gun and this Dad I have to say like he did like
00:56:43
that's really heroic and like what a [ __ ] Sophie's choice to make there absolutely like oh my God my kid might
00:56:49
be involved in killing somebody but I have to take this information to the police yeah it's like you can't just
00:56:54
ignore it and hope it goes away he's one of the things yeah to be honest I mean we've seen instances absolutely we have
00:57:00
so as soon as she heard the police were looking for her son Ray Fowler's mother dragged him to the police department
00:57:07
Another Hero here there you go and once he was there he wasted no time telling the detectives the entire story he
00:57:14
didn't spare any details but of course he passed all the blame on his friends and he said he had only gone along for
00:57:20
the ride he had no idea they were gonna kill someone um he knew everything survey says yeah ding ding ding no so
00:57:31
when they learned that Ralph fully intended to go to the police the other boys fled to Connecticut and Pete's and
00:57:37
Pete's father's car they plan to continue driving South possibly to Mexico or to South America but Pete
00:57:45
called home to let his mom know they were safe and his dad got on the phone and he had like he didn't know about the
00:57:50
murder yet but he was like why the [ __ ] did you steal my car and you better turn
00:57:54
it right the [ __ ] around yeah hell yeah Pete's dad was not the kind of guy you
00:57:58
wanted to go against so they all turned around and headed back to Seabrook because daddy said bring my car back
00:58:04
home oh my God like that's where we're at you guys that's the age group we're at the lack of frontal lobe development
00:58:10
is really highlighted yeah they thought oh yeah I'll just steal my dad's car and
00:58:15
drive it to Mexico and he will yes I'm sorry what I'm sorry what sorry so once they got back home each of the
00:58:22
boys struggled to tell their parents what had happened they were obviously leaving out all kinds of important
00:58:27
details they were using pseudonyms here and there and they were peppering the story with lies to minimize their own
00:58:33
involvement now Vance listened to his son's version of the events and even though he still
00:58:38
didn't understand what had actually happened or how Jr had even gotten himself involved in this he went back to
00:58:44
the Seabrook Police Department to let the detectives know that it seemed like all of the boys were involved in this
00:58:50
murder in one way or the other including his own son that's a hard hit so on the
00:58:55
morning of June 11 1990 a clerk from the Derry Police Department arrived in Seabrook carrying warrants for the
00:59:02
arrest of Billy Pete Ray and J.R they knew that their arrests were on the horizon so they all scattered and they
00:59:09
spent most of the day just trying to avoid the police oh man now meanwhile Dairy police captain Jackson wanted to
00:59:16
have another talk with Cecilia Pierce I think he saw that she was a bit of a oh yeah 100 he saw that as a weak point so
00:59:22
he called Cecilia's mother and Cecilia's mother said she was out for the day but
00:59:26
she was going to try to track her down she's like oh [ __ ] what are we involved
00:59:30
in here yeah so Mrs Eaton that's Cecilia's mother she figured her daughter would actually be at Pam's
00:59:36
house because that's how much time they were spending together that's so weird man I don't know if Cecilia's mom didn't
00:59:42
realize that Pam was like an authority figure and maybe just thought she was like an older friend because she's not
00:59:48
that much older than Cecilia that's true that's very true I think she just didn't
00:59:52
have all the facts yeah no I I'm like no hate to like her parents they're not even thinking about it it's just wild
00:59:58
but when you think about it afterwards you're like oh God this is the relationship with like too much so Pam
01:00:05
picks up the phone and she was like oh Cecilia actually just left but let me go collect her and I'll bring her to the
01:00:10
police but at that point Mrs Eaton had had it up to here officially officially she was like I am real [ __ ] tired of
01:00:19
this strange hold that you seem to have over my daughter stay out of it and I will track down my own daughter
01:00:24
so later she found uh Cecilia at a friend's house and Miss Eaton called Pam and was like just so you know we're
01:00:32
going to the police station now Pam yelled at Mrs Eaton on the phone and said don't take her over until I get
01:00:39
there let me go with you and we can all go together I am a victim here I have a right to know everything that the police
01:00:45
know and they're not telling me anything I'm getting tired of being treated this
01:00:48
way and I want to know what's going on oh man Mama You're a murderer man like girly girl she is reckless also who the
01:00:58
[ __ ] do you think you are yelling at Mrs Eaton so obviously she's trying to stay
01:01:02
on top of things and she wants to make sure Cecilia is not going to turn on her but Pam was telling the truth a little
01:01:08
bit there the Derry Police had actually stopped giving her any information about
01:01:12
this case of course they did because she kept going to the Press every time they
01:01:16
gave her an update so they're like okay if you want to paint us this way we'll act this way so in that moment Mrs Eaton
01:01:24
didn't care about Pam smart or her relationship with the Derry Police she was like if you want to meet us at the
01:01:28
station meet us at the station but we're going there now yeah she's like I don't
01:01:31
know I don't have time for this so they get to the station Cecilia continues to insist to the police that she knows
01:01:38
nothing about the murders she tried to even seem like she was disinterested in being there
01:01:43
now Captain Jackson realized that Cecilia wasn't really grasping the severity of the situation she was
01:01:50
involved in oh yeah so he was like you know what let me [ __ ] scare her so he starts making threats of charging her
01:01:55
with interfering with the investigation he's like you want to play that game let's go but at that point Cecilia's mom
01:02:02
didn't know that's where this was headed so she put a stop to the interview she was like no we're done here yeah now in
01:02:07
a private conversation with Cecilia's mother Jackson explained that he was simply like playing bad cop he was just
01:02:14
trying to get Cecilia to say what she knew yeah of course and he was like we know that she doesn't have anything to
01:02:19
do with the murder so we don't think she does or the murder excuse me so Cecilia's mom was like yep I get it I
01:02:25
still feel like she's gone through enough tonight and we're not really going to get anywhere here so I will
01:02:29
talk to her at home and try to get out the truth and I'll like I'll get back to you
01:02:34
so they were like okay yeah and I think they knew like they weren't going to get
01:02:38
very far at that point but on their way out of the station Pam had been sitting there the whole time waiting for them at
01:02:44
the station and she went right up to them and was like what's going on I need to know everything
01:02:49
God she is like she just is she doesn't give a [ __ ] she's like a fly attracted
01:02:54
to a big pile of [ __ ] she can't stay away so Cecilia was like nope nothing's going on they asked me the same
01:03:01
questions that they did before but she said um like don't worry about it basically
01:03:07
yeah so that night Diane last time uh late late time excuse me Jr's mother she was like hunting them down because she
01:03:15
knows that the police are looking for these kids so she finds them hiding out in an arcade in Salisbury Massachusetts
01:03:23
and she was able to convince them to turn themselves in but these [ __ ] were hiding out at an
01:03:30
arcade of course they were it but it just like of course the story even more that
01:03:36
you're like oh my God these are literal children and they thought they could just avoid the police by playing a nice
01:03:41
game of Pac-man yeah what is wrong with you absolutely why like you're just gonna play Pinball to get through the
01:03:48
fact that you just murdered somebody absolutely there I literally can't that's so messy I quite literally cannot
01:03:54
but she was able to convince themselves and they turned themselves on so news of the arrest bro arrest broke a
01:04:02
day later but because everybody arrested at that point was a juvenile there weren't a lot of details available
01:04:08
and as far as the public was concerned it seemed like Greg's murder had been solved they were like oh okay they got
01:04:14
the people that did it yeah they were like oh hey fantastic now investigators in Derry on the other hand were
01:04:19
convinced that there was still a lot more to this story than they were being told and literally all of them were like
01:04:25
yeah Pam has something to do with it this random band of teenagers didn't just come up with this plan by
01:04:30
themselves that's the thing it's like you really think they just came up with this and
01:04:34
did it and like what would the motive well exactly that's the thing so the day after the arrests were made Pam called
01:04:40
Loring Jackson she can't she can't stay away my God she's like asking to be caught oh my God at this point legally
01:04:48
yes so she calls him and she's like can I just please have any kind of update she said I'm afraid I know these kids
01:04:54
and then she said am I in any danger and Jackson was like no Pam you're not in danger she's reaching out to ask if
01:05:04
she is in danger when she knows she set them up to kill her like that is like a whole other level I I don't know what
01:05:12
she has as far as like personality disorders go but there's a couple in there I won't armchair diagnose but yeah
01:05:20
the manipulative conniving gaslighting going on there it's hilarious there's some stuff it's a layered situation but
01:05:28
this is great I [ __ ] love this so she's like am I in any danger and he goes he's like no Pam you're not and she
01:05:34
goes how can you be so sure and he goes because I know and so do you oh click it's heating up in here baby mic drop
01:05:44
moment so this while the State Attorney General's office worked to get approval to try all the teens as adults that's
01:05:50
what they were working on the media made their way to Seabrook they were shoving
01:05:54
microphones and cameras and faces of anybody even remotely involved and then Pam was doing her absolute best to just
01:06:01
play the devastated Widow betrayed by these students she had hoped to help in Project self-esteem wow and she knew
01:06:08
that the arrest of the four boys definitely put her at risk like she was starting to get nervous here but what
01:06:14
she didn't realize was that her good old buddy Cecilia Pierce would actually be the biggest risk because remember police
01:06:22
still aren't done with her no so in the week or so since her last interview with
01:06:26
the police everything around Cecilia had changed her friends had been arrested for murder Pam seemed more anxious than
01:06:33
ever to keep Cecilia close by and worse than that the Derry Police definitely knew that Cecilia knew something she
01:06:41
wasn't saying damn she later told reporters every night when I was in bed I'd get up like every five minutes when
01:06:47
I heard a car pull in seeing if it was the police coming to get me oh man which I'm like honestly good because yeah you
01:06:53
knew a lot and you didn't say none of them were ready for this nope none of them so the position she's starting to
01:06:58
feel like this is impossible and she was like I know that everything about the situation was wrong and I've been
01:07:04
manipulated by Pam yeah and she was like pan in in the past she was like oh my gosh Pam has been nothing but good to me
01:07:11
and now I'm faced with this decision to betray her yeah so she's sick over it but then at the same time the angel on
01:07:18
the side is like you need to do the right you need to betray Pam exactly so Cecilia's unwavering loyalty
01:07:25
to Pam obviously was a part of Pam's plan all along that's why she spent so much time building trust between her and
01:07:31
these kids and that's obviously why she was testing that loyalty in small ways leading up to the murder like we saw
01:07:38
but in the time since the arrests Cecilia had noticed a very large change in Pam's behavior and she was starting
01:07:45
to question everything she thought about their relationship in a later interview
01:07:49
with hard copy she told them Cecilia did her lover was in jail and she didn't care how was I supposed to believe that
01:07:55
she was actually my friend I could hang myself knowing what I know and she'd be relieved because that's one less person
01:08:01
who could tell wow so she started to realize yeah and then to make matters worse everyone
01:08:07
had been treating Cecilia so nicely since the arrest thinking that she was a victim of this oh yeah and she's like
01:08:13
[ __ ] I know everything yeah so between the kindness of her family and friends and Pam's increasing coldness towards
01:08:19
Billy Cecilia finally broke down and went to her mom and just got started so obviously that got passed along to
01:08:28
the detectives and the detectives in Derry they were like great this story confirms what we know yeah Billy and
01:08:35
Pete did the actual killing but it was Pam behind the murder of her husband yeah but the problem was now how the
01:08:41
[ __ ] were they gonna prove that she wasn't there and there's no like there's no text messages or anything like that
01:08:46
so they're considering their options but ultimately they decided that the best way to secure secure a conviction would
01:08:53
be for Cecilia to get Pam on tape confessing to her role in the murder and Cecilia and her mother agreed to the
01:09:01
plan damn because remember her mother needs to sign off on this yeah so Cecilia's first attempt came on June
01:09:11
19th when the police attached a recording device to the family's telephone they were hoping they could
01:09:16
record a conversation like a phone conversation between Cecilia and Pam so Cecilia was giving it her all she wanted
01:09:22
to win here but Pam was very guarded and she was denying any romantic relationship between her and Billy
01:09:29
because I think she was like they could bug our phones yeah of course she was a little ahead yeah but at the same time
01:09:34
she was also dodging Cecilia's references to Greg's murder so in the end the call was a bust yeah but in the
01:09:41
weeks and months after the arrest Pam she was playing it cool in public she was like oh I don't even think these
01:09:47
boys had anything to do with Greg's death like just playing it up Hamming it up yeah but at the same time she
01:09:53
obviously must have known she was a suspect rumors were starting to spread about Billy having an affair with her in
01:09:59
the back of her mind I think she knew her plan was [ __ ] all along yep also like why would you be dumb enough to
01:10:05
have teenagers do this for you truly it's only a matter of time before somebody slips up and says something and
01:10:11
here we go on July 12 1990 Cecilia Pierce took a second run at Pam in an attempt to get this confession and this
01:10:19
time she was wired with a microphone and a recording device for what the New Hampshire Attorney General's office
01:10:25
referred to as face-to-face one party intercept oh damn I love it that sounds intense it is so that afternoon Cecilia
01:10:34
went to Pam's office and she literally had a tape recorder running like somewhere in her and Pam immediately
01:10:40
somewhere in her pocket and she swallowed it I don't know so Pam rushes over to give her a hug which she must
01:10:48
have been sharding herself yeah absolutely pooping her pants truly and as she's hugging her Pam's hands come
01:10:56
dangerously close close to brushing the microphone wires like she oh my God was very very close to being caught I'd be
01:11:04
like no touchy no touchy but the conversation ended up being like rambling there was a lot of weird
01:11:10
chatting and she kind of alluded to some involvement in the mat in the murder but
01:11:15
she didn't outright confess to anything okay so a second meeting got set up for the next day and Cecilia got reset up
01:11:22
with a recording device and this time they got what they needed oh [ __ ] so the
01:11:27
second recorded conversation with Pam was much more direct there were way more details about the case and and now there
01:11:34
was the potential for even more arrests because more names were dropped throughout the discussion Pam went out
01:11:39
of her way multiple times to insist that Cecilia would be arrested as an accessory if she went to the police she
01:11:46
was like just so you know like you'll be in too so like don't [ __ ] me over oh [ __ ] but Cecilia has already talked to
01:11:52
the police and she knows that she's not true so she kept going now so finally after what seems like ours investigators
01:11:58
got what they needed and this is the little bit of it Cecilia says so he's not going to say that you offered to pay
01:12:05
him right he's going to say he knew about it before it happened which is the truth and Pam says right well so then
01:12:11
I'll have to say no I didn't and then they're either going to believe me or they're going to believe J.R 16 years
01:12:16
old and in The Slammer and then who me with a professional reputation and a course that I teach you know that's the
01:12:22
thing Cecilia says right and Pam goes they're gonna believe me wow the confidence boom baby wow the
01:12:31
dumb confidence it would turn out that Pam was wrong I was gonna say ER they didn't believe her incorrect key on
01:12:38
August 1st less than two weeks after that recorded conversation with Cecilia Pam was approached by detective Danielle
01:12:45
I believe it's Pelletier in her office in the building inside of the high school and she'd actually already spoken
01:12:53
with uh Pelletier a few times so as soon as she saw him she jumped up and was like excited to see him and he got very
01:13:00
theatrical with it I can't even say I believe him he said said well Pam I have some good news and I have some bad news
01:13:06
the good news is that we've solved the murder of your husband oh my God I love it the bad news is that you're under
01:13:12
arrest oh he really went for it Dave and I were talking about it and he was like
01:13:16
how many times do you think he practiced that oh 100 and I can't blame him no absolutely I can't believe in the car
01:13:22
ride there like talking to myself in the rear view mirror I would be saying it over and over again let's go got
01:13:27
arrested at the high school we love to see poetic poetic justice so Pam was stunned but obviously she had to follow
01:13:34
detective's orders as she was handcuffed and let out of the building yeah I mean
01:13:37
you don't really have a choice at that point and there were several other detectives from Darian Hampton out there
01:13:42
waiting in their car so this was like a sting operation and a journalist from Nashua who had shown up at the school
01:13:49
after getting an anonymous tip he actually snapped several photos of Pam being loaded into the back of the
01:13:55
cruiser yup I'm gonna look it up look it up so the next day uh August 2nd Pam was
01:14:01
arraigned and dairy District court for what the prosecutor claimed was promoting or facilitating the murder of
01:14:07
her husband now in an affidavit filed with the county the Attorney General's office said that Pam quote aided William
01:14:14
Flynn in the planning or Commission of the murder in the affidavit makes it clear that it was Billy not Pam who
01:14:20
fired the Fatal shot okay so the no the news came as a shock to almost everyone outside of the investigation especially
01:14:28
Greg's parents who had to show up to this arraignment now in a statement given to the Press outside the
01:14:34
courthouse Bill Smart Greg's father told the reporters she has taken a loved one
01:14:39
from us and all I can say is if indeed she is guilty that they teach her a lesson and give her the maximum sentence
01:14:45
that the God and Lord above us would give her there you go boom that says it all I think I think so so a week later
01:14:52
there was a bail hearing and Pam pleaded with the judge to please allow her to be
01:14:56
released on bail girl she said I have been incarcerated 12 days for a crime I did not commit I'm only 22 years old and
01:15:05
I'm a widow I have gone through an immeasurable amount of pain and suffering already and I would ask you if
01:15:10
this court is worried about me of fleeing I assure you I'm going nowhere I want to be in the courtroom to prove
01:15:16
that I am innocent of these charges yeah we totally believe you like girl I hope
01:15:20
that you take up acting in prison you're bad at it though you're pretty bad so her defense lawyers argued that the
01:15:27
arrest and the entire case against her was based on innuendo hearsay double hearsay contradictions and statements
01:15:33
made by an unidentified 16 year old intern who was brow beaten into saying the state's evidence was true that's a
01:15:39
quote wow the prosecution though was led by Assistant Attorney General Cynthia white and she uh disagreed she's like no
01:15:47
she argued that Pam could be heard on the recording making several allusions to her relationship with Billy and her
01:15:53
role in the affair and quote encouraging the teenager to lie to the police about
01:15:57
her knowledge of the murder yeah you know that whole thing yup so the County Superior Court Judge Douglas gray
01:16:03
luckily sided with the prosecution and ordered that Pam behold held without bail until the trial okay and in his
01:16:10
decision gray wrote the words of the defendant on tape serve to bolster the state's position in two ways first the
01:16:16
statements are incriminating in nature and secondly they lend Credence to the friend's prior statement to police Yeah
01:16:21
so basically he like she admitted it and it makes sense and it lines right up with what we thought happened yup so of
01:16:28
course the Press covering the case were chomping at the [ __ ] bit they overlooked some of the more important
01:16:34
details of the case like the fact that Pam wasn't a teacher yeah it didn't matter the nation was captivated it was
01:16:41
the first time that anybody had really heard of a case with details as shocking as these ones yeah so people were like
01:16:48
following super closely for every last update and actually fun fact here it was the first criminal trial in America to
01:16:57
be televised from beginning to end oh [ __ ] that's crazy isn't that crazy on Monday January 28 1991 Billy pleaded
01:17:05
guilty to second-degree murder and P and J.R pleaded guilty to a charge of being
01:17:10
accomplished accomplices to second degree murder in exchange for their testifying against Pam at her trial damn
01:17:16
which was supposed to start in early March the pleas were another blow for Pam's defense lawyers thanks
01:17:22
their attempts to suppress the recorded conversation had been denied and they were trying to contain the damage by the
01:17:29
Press which but like that was going to be hard to do and by Cecilia who already had agreed to interviews with everybody
01:17:35
from Hampton Union to ABC News oh [ __ ] but still her lawyers Pam's lawyers tried to stay confident in front of the
01:17:43
cameras they told reporters the claims from Cecilia and the boys were garbage and they were confidently boasting quote
01:17:49
they're just more people to cross-examine we'll be ready to try the case uh whatever and then they said the
01:17:55
thing that you should never say if you're going to lose a case we're looking forward to it oh that's not good
01:18:01
I just feel like that's never good no so Pam kept maintaining that she was entirely innocent of any charges but in
01:18:08
the seven months since her arrest the media coverage had allowed the public and probably any jury member anywhere
01:18:13
near here to form an opinion on their own yeah people were pretty sure she was guilty and that was pretty much
01:18:19
confirmed confirmed for them when a month before the trials started Pam was indicted for attempting to solicit
01:18:26
another inmate at the New Hampshire state prison for women to kill Cecilia Pierce before she could testify oh my
01:18:33
God because you know that wouldn't look suspicious or anything wow mama she's Reckless Reckless like she is so
01:18:44
reckless Reckless what a monstrous human being literally indicted in the middle of a murder trial for soliciting another
01:18:52
[ __ ] Murder She is a monstrous she is monstrous human being she's a cuckoo nut
01:18:58
man so her trial started on March 4th 1991 in uh Exeter New Hampshire the state's case was led by Assistant
01:19:07
Attorney General Diane Nicolosi I believe is how you say it and Pam continued to be represented by Mark
01:19:13
siste and Paul Toomey now from the moment the trial began the courtroom was like I said packed with reporters from
01:19:19
print and television media and even though there had been multiple criminal trials in the past like I said this one
01:19:26
was the first criminal trial to unfold on television in real time beginning to end and the start of this trial actually
01:19:33
coincided with the debut of Court TV oh [ __ ] this is like the first thing that
01:19:38
happened on court TV oh wow that's crazy so in her opening statement to the jury
01:19:43
Nicolosi laid out the facts on the evening of May 1st 1990 Billy Flynn acting under the direction of his lover
01:19:50
Pam smart drove to Derry where he and Pete Randall murdered Greg smart and tried to make it look like it was a
01:19:56
robbery and the attorney there explained to the court that Billy's motivation was
01:20:02
Pam and his worry that if he didn't go through the murder she was going to leave him and then went on to explain
01:20:08
that Pete Randall and the other boys in the getaway car they were motivated by money okay now finally even though she
01:20:14
wasn't in the room when the murder happened Nicolosi made it clear that the only reason Greg smart was murdered by
01:20:19
Billy and Pete was because Pam had lied manipulated and orchestrated the entire thing of course she was like Pam did
01:20:26
this willingly intentionally and even when she was presented with multiple opportunities to call this off she kept
01:20:34
going double down she said she was determined to be free of Greg and she wanted the money from his life insurance
01:20:39
policy which was very easy to prove that was what she did with it now the defense attorney Mark's uh Sisty
01:20:47
I believe is how you say it said it should be obvious we don't agree on much or on the evidence they claim they're
01:20:52
going to place before you like yes we know that that's why you're a defense attorney that's kind of how
01:20:58
court works thank you for telling us thank you so much for that uh the obvious yes thank you for that now he uh
01:21:04
didn't really dispute the fact that Pam was guilty and also really didn't try to
01:21:08
prove her innocence with his own information instead he was just trying to undermine the prosecution's case like
01:21:14
make them doubt that yeah he paid specific attention to the fact that the most damning testimony was gonna come
01:21:20
from the killer themselves or the killers and he said that they were only testifying as part of a plea agreement
01:21:26
for a lesser sentence which would put doubt in the jury's mind of course of course and then he went on to tell them
01:21:31
that what the prosecution plan to present was going to be quote one of the most vile concoctions ever assembled in
01:21:37
one courtroom in the state of New Hampshire wow that's that's intense they always get so theatrical I was gonna say
01:21:43
that's like very exaggerated yeah and then finally he ended by saying that Greg's murder was the sole
01:21:48
responsibility of three and this is a quote quote three cold-budded blooded thrill Killers fueled by sex obsession
01:21:54
jealousy and mental illness wow okay yeah I think you're talking about your client brother yeah I think so so the
01:22:01
next day the Patrick sorry the state called Patrick Pete Randall as its first witness his description of the events on
01:22:08
the night of Greg's murder were so matter of a fact and so brutal that judge gray actually had to stop the
01:22:15
testimony at one point so that Greg's mother could be helped out of the car oh God that's awful he explained quote I
01:22:22
was supposed to cut his throat but I couldn't do that because of the things he said I just couldn't do it after that
01:22:28
wow yup now J.R last time there the second witness to be called by the state confirmed the details given in the
01:22:36
prosecution's opening statements and in Pete's testimony but he went on to add even more details about Pam and her
01:22:42
relationship with Billy he told the jury quote she just kept asking how she should act when she discovered Greg's
01:22:48
Body she didn't know whether to scream run from the house or call the police what we just told her to act normally
01:22:56
I can't believe that she was like how what how do you act when someone that you're supposed to love is found
01:23:01
murdered in your home hey 16 year old what should I do yeah like you can't even Muster that up like you did marry
01:23:09
this man you did like love him you wanted to have children with him well she didn't he wanted you can't just like
01:23:14
muster up some kind of like well anything what would happen if you loved someone and they got murdered like
01:23:20
really you can't wow what you couldn't conjure that one and your 22 year old woman asking a
01:23:26
couple a couple of 16 year old boys how you should act of course in what world so it was clear obviously that the
01:23:33
prosecution was attempting to portray or just like showing that Pam was a narcissistic Mastermind and the defense
01:23:41
was trying to do the same but they were trying to point it as the three boys were the Mastermind and crazy people of
01:23:46
course now Sisty pointed to the arrest reports which included the boys uh laughing and singing on the way back to
01:23:54
Seabrook after the murder so he's like look there look at how yeah look how [ __ ] up they were but the Press noted
01:23:59
that neither the witnesses nor the accused quote ever displayed sadness or remorse for the killing so he's trying
01:24:06
to sit there and pin the blame on one of them but the media is like yeah none of
01:24:10
them seem that upset it doesn't seem like it to me now 10 days into the trial into Pam's trial Billy Flynn was finally
01:24:17
called to testify for the prosecution his testimony basically said the same thing Pete and Jr had already said but
01:24:24
he was the one with all the Sensational details about his romance with Pam of course and her reaction in the days
01:24:31
before and after the murder he told the jury that Pam would later tell him about finding Greg's Body he
01:24:38
said she told me she couldn't get herself to cry wow like you have been like dating and
01:24:45
married to this man for years and you can't muster up anything that's cold-blooded he also told the
01:24:50
prosecution that his testimony betrayed a promise that he had made to Pam a month before his arrest my guy he said I
01:24:57
told her I'd never tell on her because I loved her wow yikes wow now before his questioning
01:25:06
was over Assistant Attorney General Paul maggiato asked Billy why did you say God
01:25:10
forgive me before shooting Greg and Billy answered because I didn't want to kill Greg I wanted to be with Pam and
01:25:17
that's what I had to do to be with Pam oh my God that's so [ __ ] up it's so [ __ ] I actually have Goosebumps yeah
01:25:23
like that truly like that's [ __ ] up it's like for him to say I didn't want to do that but I did it for her and it's
01:25:28
like oh like the amount of lives that she just straight up shattered just in every way she turned a kid into a killer
01:25:36
though wasn't a killer literally crazy [ __ ] up absolutely insane and that's I didn't want to kill Greg I just wanted
01:25:43
to be with Pam yeah that tells you everything everything like him saying those few sets of words says a million
01:25:50
words so the defense on cross-examination tried to make it seem like Billy had an
01:25:56
unreciprocated obsession with Pam no and he misunderstood and agreed with them and said she was the first girl I ever
01:26:03
loved and I didn't want her to leave me oh my God so it's just so sad it's sad all around so the most damning evidence
01:26:10
came in the last days of the trial when jurors finally heard the recorded conversation between Cecilia and Pam
01:26:16
which then was followed by testimony from Cecilia on recording you can hear Pam tell Cecilia I'm afraid one day
01:26:24
you're going to come in here and you're going to be wired by the [ __ ] police and I'm going to be busted
01:26:28
I would [ __ ] my pants would have sharted the biggest shark yeah oh my God as she's sitting there yeah like wired
01:26:38
oh Pam you silly goose you don't know how close you were oh my God now across to the two tapes allowed
01:26:46
into evidence Pam can also be heard repeatedly admitting to the affair manipulating Cecilia into remaining
01:26:52
silence and strongly alluding to the fact that she was the one behind the murder so on March 22nd 1991 now after
01:27:01
13 hours of deliberation the jury found Pam smart guilty of being an accomplice to first-degree murder conspiracy to
01:27:09
commit murder and tampering with a witness in the end multiple jurors would tell
01:27:15
the Press more than anything else it was the tapes that convinced them of her guilt one juror told the Boston Globe it
01:27:21
was a very very difficult decision for us I didn't want it to turn out this way but the evidence the tapes and the
01:27:26
testimony proved in our minds that she was guilty yeah of course and other jurors were convinced because of Pam's
01:27:32
demeanor and her attitude on the stand and just how she acted in the courtroom in general according to another juror
01:27:38
everyone commented that Pamela Smart looked like a statue her coldness was very striking ooh creepy yeah now even
01:27:46
when she was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole she sat there motionless with absolutely no expression
01:27:52
on her face yeah something wrong with that one something real real with that one Greg's parents on the other hand
01:27:58
were sobbing with relief Judy smart told reporters it feels great she got what she deserved the first thing we're going
01:28:04
to do is go to Greg's grave as a family and tell him what happened so he can rest in peace oh that hurts my heart
01:28:10
it's so sad now Friends of the family and all of the boys involved were also pleased with the verdict Karen Knight
01:28:18
who was actually a friend of the Flynn family told reporters she not only took Greg's life she also took Billy's future
01:28:24
and that's not something he can ever get back no sentence the court could put on
01:28:28
her is high enough for the Injustice that she's caused yeah it's I mean it's so true it really is now just after
01:28:34
sentencing Pam was immediately sent to the New Hampshire state prison for women to begin serving her sentence and in
01:28:41
early 1993 she and her attorneys of course appealed the verdict to the state supreme court basically they argued that
01:28:49
the publicity surrounding the case [ __ ] the whole thing up and that Pam never had a chance to receive a fair
01:28:54
trial it's like girl she was on tape exactly but they were like and thus her constitutional rights have been violated
01:29:00
so the court recognized the media coverage before during before and during the trial they were like yeah it was
01:29:06
unprecedented in State history but we disagree with you they said both the 16th Amendment and the the United States
01:29:12
Constitution and part 1 Article 15 of New Hampshire Constitution guarantee the right of a defendant to a trial by a
01:29:19
fair and impartial jury this however does not require that the jurors be totally ignorant of the facts and issues
01:29:26
involved in these days of Swift widespread and diverse methods of communication an important case can be
01:29:32
expected to arouse the interest of the public in the vicinity and scarcely any of those best qualified to serve as
01:29:37
jurors will not have some informed impression or opinion as to the merits of the case whoa
01:29:43
which I mean makes sense now the appeal also challenged the recorded conversations though between
01:29:50
Cecilia and Pam Pam's attorneys claimed that the police had pressured Cecilia into consenting to the recording and
01:29:57
therefore it should have been excluded from evidence and not presented at the trial wow but the court also disagreed
01:30:04
with this Challenge and wrote back basically saying that Cecilia's mother was present for all of the interviews
01:30:09
yeah no she was able to advise Cecilia the whole way through yep and Cecilia herself said that the police explained
01:30:16
everything to her and both she and her mother signed all the necessary consent forms yeah so that was a bust
01:30:21
obviously in the end the state supreme court sided with the prosecution in the appeal and the lower Court's original
01:30:28
ruling was upheld no in the end Billy Flynn was sentenced to 40 years an adult person wow with a minimum of 12 Years
01:30:37
served before he'd be eligible for parole he ended up serving his sentence at the Maine State Prison in war in
01:30:43
Maine and he applied for a sentence reduction in 2007 which was denied in 2014 he got moved to a minimum security
01:30:51
facility and in March 2015 he did end up getting paroled and was allowed to re-enter the community wow sadly the
01:31:00
smart family was entirely against this but the parole board chairwoman at the time Donna styrek I believe is how you
01:31:07
say it commented on Billy's behavior in prison saying I've not seen such remarkable accomplishments that's not
01:31:13
something we ordinarily see so at the very least hopefully his frontal lobe developed a bit more and he
01:31:20
figured out how to make better decisions in life and hopefully he will be a better person here's here's to hope he
01:31:27
poor one in all forms now Patrick Pete Randall received a similar sentence as Billy and he also served his sentence at
01:31:34
the Maine State Prison he ended up being granted Parole in April of 2015 and was
01:31:38
released into the community in June of that year okay J.R latim who pleaded guilty to a lesser crime of being an
01:31:45
accomplice to murder he was sentenced to 30 years in prison to be served again at
01:31:50
Maine State Prison he was paroled in 2005. wow and in early 2023 he actually petitioned the court to have the rest of
01:31:59
his sentence suspended saying quote he has a wife and a full-time job and is making every effort not to waste his
01:32:05
second chance the court actually has yet to make a decision on that wow now Ray Fowler the cousin there he did
01:32:12
eventually plead guilty to conspiracy to commit murder an attempted burglary he got a combined sentence of 30 years but
01:32:19
he was paroled in 2003 after he served 11 years of that sentence he ended up though being sent back to
01:32:26
prison just a year later because he violated the terms of his parole uh by leaving New Hampshire to go visit his
01:32:33
girlfriend in Massachusetts but he got released on parole again one year later and his parole officially
01:32:39
ended ended in 2013. and according to prison authorities he quote had no problems behaving in prison or else we
01:32:46
wouldn't have ruled him so there's that okay uh Cecilia Pierce she tried to go back to her life in New
01:32:52
Hampshire but because the trial was so public she had a really hard time oh and she ended up moving not too long after
01:32:59
the trial to Jefferson City Missouri oh and then a few years after that she actually moved back to Seabrook and
01:33:06
finally settled in Albany where she actually works now as a registered nurse wow she was among the most high profile
01:33:14
Witnesses in the case and she actually ended up getting a lot of negative attention because of all the interviews
01:33:19
that she did with the press and because she ended up selling her story to a production company oh [ __ ] in 2016 she
01:33:26
told reporters people think I got a hundred and twenty thousand dollars but the truth but she said the truth was
01:33:32
that she got ten thousand dollars so which I was like yeah ten thousand dollars for being a spineless jellyfish
01:33:37
yeah okay though now Pam since she's been incarcerated she talks to the press as often as she possibly can of course
01:33:44
she does she still maintains her innocence uh and she still petitions for her release No One Believes you no in
01:33:51
2016 she told reporters I would like to think I would like people to think of me
01:33:55
as a human being I am not the caricature that people think some evil person no request denied yeah that's absolutely
01:34:03
not no as of 2023 she is currently serving her sentence in a New York prison and she has exhausted all of her
01:34:11
appeals and as of February 2023 she and her lawyers are still trying to petition
01:34:17
the state supreme court to hear her appeal for a sentence reduction but they don't seem very interested it's a no
01:34:23
from them yeah it's a no from them when they officially denied the request they cited Pam's ongoing refusal refusal to
01:34:30
accept responsibility and that was her last hope for a sentence reduction cue up the tiniest violin in the world
01:34:40
now she emailed her supporters which um if you're one of them get absolutely wrecked
01:34:46
saying that the decision was quote unquote political question mark how so question the
01:34:52
question mark is me yeah she said the death penalty would have been more merciful than this nothing will ever be
01:34:59
enough for New Hampshire to say I'm a human being deserving of anything more than being locked up in a cage like an
01:35:04
animal for the rest of my entire life you orchestrated the murder of a man yeah go away and you had a sexual
01:35:13
relationship with a minor as an adult yeah you're a pedophile so like you did some stuff yeah it's not
01:35:20
political girl no it's just yuccas yup now when Billy was released Greg's older brother Rick told the Boston Herald I
01:35:27
think he did his time he was at a young age don't get me wrong I'm not saying he
01:35:31
shouldn't have been punished but I want to put this behind me and I'm sure he wants to put it behind him wow he went
01:35:36
on to say that Pam should never be released 100 unfortunately Greg's mom Judy passed
01:35:41
away less than 10 years after Greg was killed her son's murder absolutely destroyed her and Greg's father too he
01:35:48
passed away in 2010. but his brother Rick told the herald he felt as though his father would agree with him that
01:35:54
Billy did his time and he ended the interview saying maybe someday I would like to speak to him meaning Billy just
01:36:00
so I could find out how exactly what happened from someone who was there I kind of want to know but at the same
01:36:06
time I just want to move on he took our brother and my parents son at a young age I would hope that by now he would
01:36:12
realize what he did and I think he probably does he's had a lot of time to think about it whether he'd be honest
01:36:17
with me about that about that I don't know it wouldn't change my opinion about him getting out but if I was him I
01:36:23
wouldn't try and squander it wow like what that is a tough decent human being right there it really is like wow
01:36:32
it just goes to show you don't know how you would feel until something like this
01:36:37
got up from it happens to you yeah like but mad respect for real a lot of respect to Rick so much respect and then
01:36:45
obviously this has been made into like countless movies I think Nicole Kidman in plain to pay him at one point which
01:36:52
was a very generous compliment yeah Helen Hunt also played her in another movie again a very generous compliment
01:36:58
I think we should just next time hire a dumpster and put a blonde wig on it and see what happens or you know like this
01:37:05
they'll make another one or don't make another one there's always make another one that's a good plan we've had enough
01:37:10
so yeah that is the wild freaking case that is I feel smart and the murder of Greg smart what a sad story it really is
01:37:17
through and through because there are two people that should never have gotten married no never so sad that they didn't
01:37:24
just like get to divorce like a normal couple that's the thing because they absolutely I think Greg was starting to
01:37:30
go in that direction and it's so many like times where either they should have just divorced and that should have been
01:37:37
it or in that moment when all those kids realized that they didn't want to do this I wish they had just
01:37:43
not done it they're just stood up for what they're something inside of them was saying and just listened to it right
01:37:49
how to [ __ ] makes me crazy how to spine I wish anybody in this story had a spine would have been great truly that
01:37:55
would that would have been awesome it would have been fantastic yeah but as always guys we hope you keep listening
01:38:01
and we hope you keep it weird but not to where the ear spineless jellyfish who decides to murder somebody because you
01:38:08
want to be with a lady that is kind of a pedophile don't be a dick don't be a dick don't do it love you
01:38:16
[Music] thank you [Music]