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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elina and this is [Music] morbid this is morbid it's morbid I wait
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at the top of the show I have an apology I never listen to morbid cuz like I don't really enjoy hearing my own voice
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very much but I listened to the intro of a couple episodes yesterday just the intros are my favorite part why the [ __ ]
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can't I stop singing to you people oh you love to sing I do but like every intro lately is me singing horrifically
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and I'm like we might lose listeners our downloads might be down I was like oh God I'm going to get cited for this I
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didn't even know that you did that much I think there was three in a row where at first it was JLo then it was you got
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the baddest ideas I won't sing it see here you go I know I can't help myself I'm like a [ __ ] theater kid I think
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it's great I hope that other people feel that CU I was listening and I was like oh no I'm ostracizing my community I
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people like it I hope so personally well if not take me away in a drone take me away yeah what the [ __ ] okay so this is
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coming out in about six months so hopefully hopefully for like a few weeks by then if we figured out this drone
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situation because I where you guys are the future so right now where we sit we're in the thick of it it's not even
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Christmas time yet right now we're in the thick of it right now it's December 13th at the moment we're in the thick of
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drones it's Friday the 13th right now it's Friday the 13th happy Friday the 13th from the past and it's a wintry
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Friday the 13th something about that just gives me the you know what other day it is today what darinda medley's
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60th birthday oh well my goodness happy birthday what a day happy birthday to the queen
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to the queen but anyway after to the drones what's what's your theory give me a theory that's the thing I don't have
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one I have no idea what's going on I think and I think the government does know what's going on but they're not
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telling us I just want to know why I think I think it's people who are I think it's aliens who have inhabited the
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earth I think that would be like leaving I think that would be sick like I think
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that would be awesome I don't know if that's it well nobody it's something much more Sinister Vibe Sinister and
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mundane like it's going to be something that's much more like oh it's that like you know I don't think it's going to be
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like oh [ __ ] it's aliens like cuz I think we'd all at this point in our lives I think all of us would be like
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welcome let's go we already know they're in the ocean yeah so I think everybody would be psyched about that I know I
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would but I'm like I don't know do you think think it's possibly like another country I don't know like spying or
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something who the [ __ ] knows literally nobody not even the FAA I feel like somebody knows there was an interview I
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was just showing it to Elena it was with like a I think it's a New Jersey representative I forget his name but he
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went to this meeting about it and he walked out of the meeting CU he was like they don't he goes they don't know
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nothing Amur it's amateur I was crying he's like they me drive here 2 hours and they just tell me they don't know what's
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going on was 5 hours I love that man I too would be if I drove in New Jersey traffic yeah to get to somewhere for
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them to say we don't know what's going on well now I be like this could have been an email now everything could have
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been an email God people just trying to show their importance everywhere but uh now they're in Massachusetts I know
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that's the thing I'm like well hey yeah they spotted them in East Hampton last night which I feel like is
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so like it's I feel like it could be aliens because remember that whole big UFO in great barington yeah you never
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that whole big UF that whole big UFO thing the uncovered Bridge or the covered bridge the uncovered bridge is
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it covered it's covered it's covered the covered bridge yeah I've never been there freak uncovered
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Bridge that' be a good book it would be we uncovered this bridge uncovered Bridge like you discovered it hey work
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workshop that then we'll we'll float that around later I might have just given you a good idea did uh but yeah
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there there was a whole UFO incident you are correct and that we should cover that I know that would be a good one to
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cover for sure I think that's on the docket somewhere we love the Burks um the berserk Shears of the berserk shears
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right back to Dinda I can make anything bra circled right back around anything yeah you know it's the New Year where
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you are everybody and I'm looking forward to it personally I've yeah I've been looking forward to this new year
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for a long time I think this is I my favorite number is five yeah five in it I do love a new year with a five in it
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there you go and I just think it's going to be a great year I lots of things are
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planned yes lots of exciting things lots of big changes lots of big new things yeah exciting things that you guys can
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look forward to we can look forward to yeah I'm psyched about it I literally books coming out there is next year like
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um Grady Hendricks has a new book coming out in the beginning of the year I've got it on pre-order for wewood girls and
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it's big babes that got an arc and it's real good I know you [ __ ] so good I can't wait it's so good Chuck wendig has
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a new book coming out in like April I think the staircase in the woods love that so [ __ ] good guys that that we
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just did for our book club with Sabrina and Karan wward you guys have to read that so good it's by I think her name is
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Amelia but it's with an E she's coming out with a new book and I I'm assuming it's probably going to come out in 20
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Sirens let me see if there's a release date on it yeah I'm really excited for that she said it's going to be like
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folklor almost love that like a FK horror situation like slooh foot is really I love that and guys if you're
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feeling like I'm telling you if you get if you it's a good book will get you on that path of just wanting to gobble up a
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million books it really will sirens is expected to come out uh April 1st 2025 oh so the beginning of the half of the
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year like really has some look at the cover some bangers coming out I love the cover I mean let's go ailia
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heart let's go bu their books uh buy mine too while you're at I mean Butcher and the r hey 2025 you never know what
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could happen you never know what could happen you never know maybe another installment of Ren you never know please
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you don't know I don't know you know knows I have no idea I don't even know what time is she's a what do you say it
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is a flat circle what does that mean it's just like nothing like it just is in on itself oh I like that yeah all
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right well that's a lot of banter and I enjoyed it again it's my favorite part of the episode there you go uh but I'm
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going to be talking to you guys today about something a wild case we briefly mentioned this case when we were doing
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crime countdown it was like amongst one of the numbers as we were counting down yes Michael and Susan Carson the San
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Francisco witch Killers fascinating case simply because these two are characters like they're
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real people obviously but crazy set of just I I don't even know how to describe it it's just even just that crime
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countdown little blurt we got was like I'm sorry what it's when you de said I don't even know how to how to describe
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it it's Indescribable who they are because they're like a mismos of their own making and it's it's also a tragic
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case because a lot of young people who didn't need to lose their lives did so let's let's get into it on the afternoon
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of March 7th 1981 San Francisco detectives were called to an apartment at 8:25 shraer this is hard to say
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shraer street shraer oh that is hard Sher street it's going from Sha to Str yeah that's hard but uh in the kitchen
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of the basement apartment 23-year-old Karen Barnes was sprawled out on the floor her head was lying in a pool of
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blood and the rest of her body was wrapped in a heavy blanket whoever had killed Karen had left her body there in
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the corner of the room stuffed between the counter and the stove oh just so chilling yeah like very careless so upon
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his initial examination the San Francisco coroner at the time Dr Boyd Stevens Boyd Boyd determined that
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Karen's skull had been crushed by repeated blows from a blunt instrument she had also been stabbed 13 times to
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the left side of her face and her neck I you know what when you hear something like that I was thinking about this the
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other day I think a lot of times people become I think the whole world is desensitized to so many things right now
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big time that I think when you hear like hit repeatedly with a blunt object in the head head and like stabbed 13 times
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you're like wo that's crazy sit with it yeah sit with it for a second think about what that entails if
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you really sit there and think about what that entails these kind of things will [ __ ] you up so much harder and I
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know that's probably not what everybody wants but that's a lot well to understand the gravity of a situation
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like that move your arm 13 times your arm's going to get tired and imagine being on the receiving end of that
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exactly and then and after you've already been struck in the head how whoever however many times exactly like
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it hit me with one of our recent cases that I was like really in my head going through how much time it takes and like
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what that would be like to go through and it's like you got to do that it's Overkill yeah it's Overkill it's absurd
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but the coroner wouldn't know for sure uh until he completed the autopsy but Dr Stevens was fairly confident that the
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cause of death was the quote moon-shaped cranial injury that had crushed Karen's
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brain God based on the limited blood splatter on the wall though and the fact that there was no blood on the bottom of
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Karen's feet he theorized that she had been attacked in her sleep and was most likely already dead or dying when her
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killer started stabbing her my God you hope that she was already dead just because to experience what she had
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already gone through and then to add 13 stabs to the face and neck on that too much no based on the state of riger
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mortise though he did conclude that Karen's body had been lying there in the kitchen for about two days wow just all
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by herself just two days to detective Carl clots the entire scene felt very odd it was cold in San Francisco that
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March but the heat had been turned off there was almost no furniture in this entire apartment there was just some
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throw pillows and a pile of blankets on the floor it seemed like the previous occupants had been squatting there
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probably not renting the detective also noted a lack of electrical appliances in
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the entire apartment there were no lamps no radios no televisions and the entire
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apartment seemed to be illuminated by just VOD of candles O So this is like a creepy scene oh my God yeah but most
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unusual of all was the decor other than the obvious odors that accompany a dead body there was a heavy odor of incense
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hanging in the air and the only Decor that the detective noticed was a large amount of strange cran drawings on the
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on the wall oh on the walls excuse me oh I hate this he said they looked like they had been created by a
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seven-year-old kid oh and on one of the drawings detective clz noticed a signature that read only Susan
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all capital letters I hate this yeah and and they were not drawn by a seven-year-old everybody in another room
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investigators found Karen's purse which contained her identification but not much else in fact the entire apartment
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was missing anything resembling evidence other than Karen's body in the corner it
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looked like somebody had thoroughly cleaned and emptied the the apartment before police even got there wow so
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speaking with the landl Lord detective clots learned that the apartment was actually in the process of being
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renovated so that was why there was like a lack of objects and any kind of lived
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in feeling makes sense but unfortunately the landlord did not know a lot about Karen Barnes uh she had moved in a few
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months earlier he said she spoke with what he thought was a Southern accent maybe she was from Georgia he presumed
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uh when she moved in Karen told the landlord that it was quote against her religion to handle money and that the
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welfare department would handle her Affairs interesting yes the statement's obviously seemed a little strange like
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that's not something you're going to run into every single day but this was San Francisco Isco it's like during the time
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where hippies are like you know changing [ __ ] and whatever and you're not going
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to like question something like that you're like okay and also as a landlord I'm sure you're like as long as I get
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paid I don't care who giv me money sure whatever so whatever otherwise the landlord said that Karen had been a
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mostly responsible tenant in the short time that she lived there but he did say one time recently he saw a quote and
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this is a quote two trampy looking hippie sneak out of the apartment in the early morning but he said he didn't get
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a good look at either of them and he wasn't really a ble to recall anything distinct about either of them
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interesante now nobody in the building had heard or seen anything strange coming from Karen's apartment in the
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last few days so detective clots and the other homicide detectives started the slow and very painstaking process of
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trying to reconstruct Karen's history and current lifestyle from what they could deduce from friends and
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acquaintances most of those friends and acquaintances interviewed early on in the investigation didn't have much to
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offer to investigators but but eventually detective clots did find his way to Randy Jacobson and Marsha Moscow
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and they were a couple that Karen had been staying with just before she moved into that apartment where she was found
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okay according to Randy and Marsha in the weeks before she moved into her new apartment Karen had been spending a lot
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of time with a couple that they only knew as Michael and Susan Randy and Mara said the couple were transients they
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were traveling up and down the California coast they were selling weed and they grew that weed in humbl County
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which I think was in your last case yeah it was yeah lots of weird California that keep happening Susan and Michael
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had described themselves as Muslims spoiler alert they're not yeah that like they cherry-picked certain things from
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different religions and like you said bastardize them really like Twisted religion yeah but according to Marsha
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anytime they stayed at Randy and Marsha's a a apartment apartment apartment quote the stringy-haired woman
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spent half her time in the closet it talking to Allah or meditating in the bathtub with her husband interesting so
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they're strange characters she also said that Susan and Michael explicitly rejected more modern aspects of society
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like driver's licenses social security cards and even electricity and they spent probably 99% of their time talking
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about the dangers of witches and Witchcraft huh rude rude rude personally offended it seemed that anybody who had
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spent time with either of them strongly encouraged Karen to keep her distance from this couple but she never seemed to
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take anybody's concerns too seriously now when detective clutz was able to get a hold of Karen's mother
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Barbara Miller just a few days later it turned out that Karen's landlord had been right she was from Georgia and
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according to her mother after graduating high school just a few years earlier Karen sold her car and she and her
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friend Debbie headed out to California she want she had dreams of becoming an actress of course which just ruins you
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yeah she spent a few unproductive months in LA and then she made her way to Santa
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Barbara to find uh she found a job as a housekeeper and Barbara told detective clz that Karen was just fine in Santa
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Barbara she said she had a steady job she was taking acting lesson she even started dating this nice guy but
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unfortunately all of that fell to the Wayside when a friend talked her into moving to San Francisco with them
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according to Barbara moving to San Francisco was the beginning of her daughter's downfall oh that makes me sad
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that she was doing well in Santa Barbara yeah like figuring it out making moves to become become an actress
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yeah now in San Francisco she found the exciting life that she had probably hoped to find in Hollywood but instead
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of actors and celebrities her new life was populated by hippies and Drifters people who seem to be happy living on
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the fringes of society just a few months after moving up north Karen was hitchhiking when the driver of a truck
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that she was riding in fell asleep at the wheel so he the truck like ran off the road essentially and she was thrown
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from the cab of the truck she broke her pelvis in the process which sucks and the injury sent her back home to Georgia
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to recover now for Karen this move from her exciting life in San Francisco and back to a slower life back home in
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Georgia very different very different very difficult and ultimately just not a transition that she was going to make
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longterm so as soon as she was well enough to get back on her feet she made her way back to San
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Francisco throughout the rest of 1980 Barbara's communication with Karen was pretty sporadic
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and even when Karen did call there was a chance that she would be high or drunk like she was partying a lot yeah and
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their conversation would quickly devolve into an argument probably from Barbara's
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concern yeah so that being the case Barbara was hopeful when Karen called in early January 1981 to tell her that she
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decided to get her life together and that she found this new apartment that she was planning to share with a young
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couple Barbara was like okay like that sounds nice yeah and Karen told her mother that her new roommate Susan and
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Michael Carson and were very religious but aside from that she didn't offer any more information but her mom is hearing
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this news I mean and she's used to hearing from Karen when she's under the influence of something yeah and now she
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says she's got this new apartment she's met this couple they're religious she's probably like okay like you're slowing
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down you know but the last time Barbara talked to her daughter was on Valentine's Day which also happened to
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be Karen's birthday and by then whatever hope or optimism Barbara had sensed in Karen's voice the last time they talked
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talked was completely gone she recalled Karen telling her mama this is haunting she said Mama I have this feeling I
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won't ever live to C30 I just have a funny feeling and when I have feelings like this they usually come true I can't
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imagine being a mother and hearing your child say that to you no like I don't know how you recover and just like the
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fact that she knew that in like somewhere in her body and mind new like that's disturbing yeah Barbara tried to
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convince Karen to come back home toor she was like we'll figure it out like come home we'll get you back on your
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feet I'm what a good mom I know Barbara really tried like I'll take care of you yeah but Karen said no she said she
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wanted to stick it out in San Francisco for just a few more months to see if she
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could turn things around for herself no according to Barbara she was having a hard time hearing her daughter during
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that last phone call cuz there was a lot of background noise going on wherever she was calling from and eventually
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Barbara was like where are you and Karen said she was in a pay phone booth at the
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back of the restaurant and said don't wor they can't find me back here okay that would [ __ ] me up the statement was
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uh confusing first of all and obviously alarming but when Barbara asked what the
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[ __ ] she meant by that Karen just quickly changed the subject and very shortly after that they said goodbye and
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ended the call that's so chilling they can't find me back here last time the last time she ever spoke to her she
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tells you she doesn't think she's going to live to C30 and that whoever can't find her where she is yeah that's really
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concerning so to Detective clots the story was a pretty familiar one small town kid moves to California has got
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these dreams of making it really big find out that things are a lot harder than they anticipated he'd heard that
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before yeah but the call with Karen's mom had not been entirely unproductive he did manage to get the names of
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Karen's mysterious roommates Michael and Susan Carson he had a last name now so the more that he and his partner asked
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around the more they discovered just how many people disliked Karen's roommates ah Karen's friend Katie Hudson told
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investigators I can't stand to be in the same room with that woman Susan embodied
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evil oh [ __ ] her yeah and Katie's boyriend Greg Brewster kind of saw Susan and Michael in a slightly more
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sympathetic light he agreed they were very strange characters but he said he also found them interesting huh it's
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weird to hear someone be like she's the embodiment of evil and then somebody's just like I don't know they're
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interesting and especially his girlfriend says they're evil and he's like he says they're interesting they're
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interesting but they're weird yeah yeah according to Greg Michael Carson had written a manuscript titled the way
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which he wanted to have published eventually the book was like sort of an autobiography it detailed how he and
00:20:38
Susan had met in Arizona in 1977 and then they embarked on this back tripping uh backpacking trip to your
00:20:44
back tripping back tripping they probably were back tripping they 100% were because yeah they were they went
00:20:50
back trip I was just about to say it again cuz that's what they were doing they went back tripping to Europe and
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they became drug smugglers there of course when they came back to the US Susan and Michael started traveling a
00:21:00
circuit between California and Arizona trafficking drugs and promoting I guess what you could call I mean a very
00:21:07
bizarre blend of mysticism and a very poorly informed understanding of Islam they like I said earlier they picked
00:21:15
little bits of Islam but even the parts that they picked they they were not yeah
00:21:20
they Twisted them it wasn't actual uh I don't know if it's tenants of Islam yeah it honestly it's it sounds
00:21:27
to me like when people people will take little bits of like Christianity and like all these other kind of like
00:21:34
Catholicism and you know all that kind of stuff and pull little pieces from it and sometimes they pull pull the worst
00:21:41
pieces from them and then twist them to be even worse yeah and then make their own little like [ __ ] religion ball of
00:21:48
[ __ ] religion it's like and it sounds like that's what they were doing it's very culty you know it's very exactly it
00:21:53
has C Vibes so through more interviews with Karen's friends and her acquaintances a picture of and Susan
00:21:59
Carson started to emerge nobody seemed to know anything about their backgrounds other than the fact that they came from
00:22:04
Arizona but everybody got the sense that they both seem to be suffering from some
00:22:09
kind of mental illness they were not cly sounds that way yeah they were not all there to Karen's friend lilan a
00:22:14
registered nurse Michael and Susan she said seemed like classic schizophrenics and that the moment she met them she got
00:22:20
the feeling they were dangerous oh wow yeah that's scary yeah I can understand why people would get that feeling and
00:22:27
obviously like you don't want to judge a book by its cover but you see sometimes
00:22:30
she got to man I love book covers I do judge a book by its cover to be honest I'm just going to be real with you you
00:22:35
got a good cover I'm going to buy it and that's you don't make your full judgment
00:22:39
don't don't don't make your like end s judgment and sentencing on a cover right but you can take some some little bits
00:22:47
and pieces gather some evidence from the cover and it's also like a gut instinct
00:22:51
you know sometimes you see someone and regardless of what they look like you get a feeling from them EXA looking at
00:22:57
the two of them you get a feeling from them that they do embody evil yeah you looking I am I get a feeling evil I got
00:23:06
a feeling could be bunnies it's yeah yeah it's that's the thing like there's something in the eyes there the problem
00:23:15
there's nothing in the eyes actually that's the problem nailed it thank you nailed it yes yes so for the most part
00:23:20
it seemed that the only reason anybody even tolerated Susan and Michael's presence was because they always had
00:23:26
quote unquote good drugs oh yeah okay good reason to be friends with people yeah but by by early 1981 even
00:23:33
that wasn't enough the good drugs would not suffice according to Marsha MOS Moscow Karen's former roommate there
00:23:39
when she and her partner Randy came home from a vacation to Mexico they just found Michael and Susan squatting in
00:23:45
their apartment can you [ __ ] imagine if you go on a vacation with your mans and you come back home and your old
00:23:52
roommates friends are squatting in your [ __ ] place no I cannot also neither of them seemed embarrassed or guilty at
00:24:01
all about having you know Taken full advantage of Randy and Marsha awesome on the contrary even after Randy and Marsha
00:24:08
came back from Mexico Michael and Susan were like yeah we are not going to leave
00:24:12
we're just here we live here we're just here that's a no for me and it's not like they were just like regular well
00:24:18
first of all they weren't roommates they were squatters but they weren't just regular squatter I guess they were worse
00:24:23
because their constant presence became a very serious source of stress for Marsha
00:24:28
in particular I would lose my mind they would just endlessly rant about the uh coming
00:24:33
apocalypse all the time and she was like I can't handle this like we got to go that's really inconvenient and also very
00:24:41
existential dread Drey yes yeah I would cry a lot and this was like before people went to therapy so can you even
00:24:48
imagine I'm going to therapy about the end of the world right now I can't imagine not having that at my fingertips
00:24:53
for real even though there were people who were like most people were just put off by Susan and Michael Carson and
00:24:58
there were some people within their Social Circle who had actually had very intense confrontations with them that's
00:25:04
not shocking to me at all yeah no me either when Karen's friend Syble learned of her murder her first response was
00:25:10
I'll bet Susan and Michael did it if you have anyone in your Social Circle that you'd be like oh yeah they definitely
00:25:16
did it my goodness yeah like you got to rethink that Social Circle yeah move away from
00:25:22
that according to sible she said Michael bore a strong resemblance to Charles Manson in both appearance and
00:25:29
personality Oh I thought you were going to just say like she was like he looks like Charles Manson so he probably did
00:25:35
it I was like that's not super Fair no that's not super Fair she said he looks like him and he acts Personality yeah so
00:25:41
that's scary he was very intense very distant and it was in a way that made her feel deeply uncomfortable but it was
00:25:47
actually Susan who she really disliked that seems to be a pattern here it sure does one night when they were all
00:25:53
hanging out at a friend's apartment Susan just out of nowhere accused Syble of being a quote witch consorting with
00:26:00
the devil and she screamed at her throw your Necromancer book Away you're trying
00:26:05
to open the gates of hell and she didn't yell back at her hell yeah I think she party I think she said what hello like
00:26:16
imagine who out of nowhere someone's just like which you're witch consorting with the devil throw your neckromancer
00:26:25
book away I would literally you're trying to open the gates of hell I'd be like please elaborate like what made you
00:26:31
think that about me tell me is that my aura oh my God is that my aura is that like what you first thought but Ser but
00:26:38
genuinely like that un serious way of looking at it in reality that's terrifying I would cry I would me I
00:26:46
would cry cuz this isn't like somebody being funny and being like I think you're a witch trying to consort with
00:26:52
the devil she's like I think you're a witch trying to consort with the devil and you should die and I want to do
00:26:56
something about it exactly but a few weeks before the murder Syble could clearly see that Susan and Michael's
00:27:01
influence on Karen was like you know growing growing exactly uh Karen came to cibil's apartment and declared
00:27:09
emphatically that she had found the Lord and she insisted in that Syble abandoned
00:27:13
her quote unquote Witchcraft and magic or she would be quote condemned to Hell s was like oh boy okay this is when it
00:27:20
gets gnarly exactly keep it to yourself keep it to yourself Karen had always seemed pretty naive and innocent to cble
00:27:27
and probably more than a little too trusting so when she recognized that Karen had become essentially
00:27:32
indoctrinated by Michael and Susan she decided to keep her distance from all three of them she closed that Social
00:27:38
Circle yeah cuz honestly it's like what do you do I don't know when it's like when it gets to that point it's like
00:27:43
it's really hard to pull someone back out of that well you just have to protect yourself you know now uh by all
00:27:50
accounts Karen Barnes was exactly the sweet naive young woman that everybody said she was that makes me sad I know
00:27:56
and as far as detective clots could tell it was most likely that naive that got her into trouble unfortunately that's
00:28:02
even worse that they pray on people like that yeah and I don't even like to say na just trust she's trusting yeah
00:28:09
according to one friend Karen always went for the underdog and as soon as she met Susan and Michael Carson she was
00:28:14
mesmerized and just wanted to help them that's all she wanted to do and they have like cult leery Vibes so it's like
00:28:21
and that's what they do they pray on people who want to help other people are you know vulnerable in some way they
00:28:28
hunt them down exactly within a few days of the murder Susan and Michael Carson jumped to the top of the suspect list at
00:28:34
least as far as detective clots was concerned but the problem was in that kind of culture that really existed on
00:28:40
the fringes and you know was probably pretty resistant to cooperating with the police finding leads and evidence felt
00:28:47
increasingly impossible not everybody to talk that's the thing not everybody wanted to talk most of Karen's friends
00:28:52
felt like it was entirely possible that the couple had something to do with her death but none of them even knew their
00:28:57
last names much less where the hell they were and detective clz and his partner would end up spending more than a year
00:29:04
chasing leads that inevitably just went nowhere wow as they and the other investigators on Karen's case search for
00:29:11
San search San Francisco for their suspects Susan and Michael Carson were already hundreds of miles away they had
00:29:17
hitchhiked uh North through California and into Oregon I said it correctly the Oregon Trail you mean no it's the Oregon
00:29:25
Trail the Oregon Trail I can't believe it I can't either I refuse I refuse I love you guys refuse in their hitch
00:29:33
hacking travels through Lake Creek Oregon they met a couple who told them about this abandoned Cabin In This Very
00:29:38
remote section of the Cascade Mountains they said you could definitely stay there for a while and you could avoid
00:29:44
most if not all of society whoa where is that place can you give me the coordinates uh after being pointed
00:29:51
towards an Old Logging trail that led into the mountains they hiked into the forest and eventually found said cabin
00:29:58
which I don't really know if you want to go to there because it wasn't much more
00:30:01
than a one room Shack and they said it probably would have been blown over at the slightest wind yeah it sounds a
00:30:07
little bit like the evil dead so I'm going to I'm going to stay away from that little too remote for me yeah
00:30:13
despite the shitty accommodations they actually stayed at that cabin in the Cascades for over a year surviving on
00:30:19
whatever they could grow from their Garden their vegetable garden and whatever food they could scr from their
00:30:23
occasional trips into town during this period and obviously I think because they were so isolated their paranoia and
00:30:31
their bizarre belief system just continued to grow cuz think about it they are in an echo chamber of their own
00:30:37
Twisted beliefs just being echoed back at them over and over and over and intensified I'm sure they're trying to
00:30:43
one up each other with their yeah no counteracting ideas either it's all the same like let's just keep feeding it
00:30:50
it's yes and yes it's their scary improv absolutely yeah and the other thing is they were emboldened the fact that so
00:30:58
far they had gotten away with murder yep that's always the case all throughout the year Michael kept an eye on the
00:31:03
regional newspaper certain they would be named as suspects in Karen's death but he never saw the slightest hint that the
00:31:09
police were searching for them and even on his occasional trips back to Los Angeles or San Francisco where he was
00:31:15
sure he'd hear something seemed like nobody suspected either him or Susan as The Killers damn so in the winter of
00:31:22
1981 after an altercation with a couple who lived in a cabin further down the mountain um who SU had accused of
00:31:28
worshiping Satan that seems to be her thing yeah it's kind of her vibe that's kind of her vibe like what she does
00:31:34
Michael and Susan decided you know maybe it was time for them to move on from this cabin since they'd been Vigilant
00:31:39
about checking the papers throughout the year they were again very confident that
00:31:42
they weren't suspects in caren's Murder so they found no reason why they shouldn't return to California or at
00:31:47
least move around the Pacific Northwest freely eventually Michael and Susan made
00:31:53
their way to Alder point which is a tiny town in northern California the population is less than 100 wa yeah or
00:32:00
at least it was at the time that's interesting to go to a place like that yeah where you're not you're going to
00:32:06
sck out like they know everybody there probably I know interesting uh yeah interesting choice but in the past Alder
00:32:14
Point had been known as a stop along the Northwestern Pacific Railroad but by the
00:32:18
1970s any industry that had been there was long gone and all that was really left was a few weed farms deep in the
00:32:24
woods so I think the thing that they figured was I mean weat is illegal at the time yeah nobody's really going to
00:32:30
bother anybody around there you know that makes sense once there Michael and Susan found work on a marijuana farm and
00:32:36
they spent their days harvesting tending to the crops hauling the plants back to
00:32:40
The Farmhouse to be processed as enthusiasts of uh enthusiasts excuse me of drug culture the work was satisfying
00:32:47
for them they both stayed happily on the farm for months in fact they probably would have stayed there for forever if
00:32:54
it hadn't been for Clark Stevens oh man Clark Stevens was a friend of one of the
00:32:59
Farm Workers who would periodically come from San Diego to alderpoint to transport the drugs he actually had been
00:33:06
arrested in LA and was bailed out by the Farm's owner John Walker in an exchange
00:33:11
Steven signed over the title to his truck to Walker and Walker brought him on as an informal partner in the Farms
00:33:18
business as far as Susan and Michael could tell Clark was just another southern California dude who came North
00:33:24
to cash in on the increasingly lucrative pot farms and Bol County and they [ __ ] hated him from the moment they
00:33:32
met Clark Susan and Michael had been at odds over everything and even the most casual conversations just escalated into
00:33:40
arguments have you ever like met someone like that that you just [ __ ] hate each other immediately yes me too yeah
00:33:48
as tensions on the farm continue to escalate Susan became convinced that Clark Stevens was a demon like and I
00:33:55
know that sounds funny no like she genuinely thought he was this is like religious mania kind of situation
00:34:03
like this is not like I think like I've thought someone's a demon before in a funny way like being like they're a
00:34:10
demon they say demonic things they're the worst yeah this is like I think there's a demon yes here and I need to
00:34:18
eradicate which is not good exactly to it's it's sad because obviously there's some kind of unchecked mental illness
00:34:26
there but it's like you wish that there was people around her that were like hey
00:34:30
or people around them that were like hey you need help yeah like and I'm sure there were but they just ignored it so
00:34:36
things finally came to a head in early May of 1982 when Clark came back to the farm after being thrown off the property
00:34:42
just a few days earlier he was thrown off the property for assaulting his ex-girlfriend which is not great but
00:34:48
John Walker the Farm's owner had gone into town that morning which meant that Michael and Susan were watching over the
00:34:54
farm in case of any unwanted visitors at first when Clark got there Michael said he tried to resolve the
00:35:00
situation calmly telling Stevens that he wasn't welcome on the farm anymore but when Stevens wouldn't leave he said
00:35:06
things escalated and of course after some strong encouragement from Susan Michael Drew 38 caliber pistol from his
00:35:13
waistband and pulled the trigger but the gun failed to fire oh now aware that he
00:35:18
was in serious danger Clark Stevens ran at Michael to try to probably disarm him
00:35:23
but Michael fired a second time and sent the bullet through Clark's lower jaw oh
00:35:28
so he immediately fell to the ground and with Clark on the ground Michael approached and shot him a second time in
00:35:34
the Torso and then fired a third time hitting Clark in the head just behind the ear holy [ __ ] later Michael and
00:35:41
Susan would claim that they killed Clark Stevens because he was a quote demon and
00:35:46
a quote Petty witch who wanted to live off of Susan's life this is [ __ ] up no it's deeply disturbing but they acted
00:35:54
quickly to cover up the murder they buried Steven's body in a pile of chicken manure see and this is where
00:36:00
things like that's this is where like you know Insanity pleas and all that stuff are so difficult and so
00:36:08
complex and so layered because like you think of we shot him because I was convinced he was a demon and that he was
00:36:15
a petty witch who wanted to live off of Susan's life you look at that and you go
00:36:19
okay insane something's really off here and these are two literally sick people and this isn't like they just said that
00:36:25
to get some kind of insanity like they've been thinking it for a long time they just said that all along the way
00:36:30
but then you look at people covering up what they've done and you say well then you know what You' done and then when
00:36:37
you look at like chicken manure being what they chose I'm like you chose that you chose manure for a reason absolutely
00:36:44
and to me that's like evil you're evil you just happen to also have a mental illness yes you know yeah it's crazy
00:36:51
well and then they went even further they set fire to the pile to try to destroy the body and then they just went
00:36:58
back to the house went back to The Farmhouse and they found that several of Clark Steven's friends from La had
00:37:04
arrived and were looking for drugs so they told the group that he was out and he wouldn't be back until later which
00:37:10
again you know yeah you know where he you're covering up for your [ __ ] but the
00:37:15
group decided to stay and wait it out so days passed with no sign of Clark causing even John Walker who was the one
00:37:22
who threw him out days earlier to become suspicious Clark's truck was still parked at the house and it had a dead
00:37:28
battery because uh that was why Susan Michael didn't move it it had a dead battery and it seemed out of character
00:37:35
for him to just disappear on foot so John Walker sitting there like what the [ __ ] is going on yeah and in the days
00:37:41
that followed Michael and Susan just acted like nothing had happened and they downplayed Clark's uh disappearance as
00:37:47
typical for a quote unquote junkie their so this is if they really thought he was
00:37:52
a demon they would be like we killed a demon exactly like they wouldn't trying to cover this up because they did
00:37:59
something good they killed a demon exactly so the only thing they did have going for them was that nobody wanted to
00:38:05
draw attention to the to the authorities so reporting his disappearance to the police was out of the question that's
00:38:11
crazy yeah still the idea of going to the police though had been mentioned and it was enough to make Michael start
00:38:16
getting paranoid so about a week after Clark Stevens's murder Susan and Michael told John Walker that they decided to
00:38:22
move on and just gave him some story about needing to make more money damn so then they got the hell out of there they
00:38:28
got the hell out of Dodge they went back to Oregon where they stayed in a cave for a few days Jesus a cave before
00:38:36
deciding that they probably needed a better plan eventually they decided that Michael should head to LA and assuming
00:38:42
that there was no sign the police were looking for them they would they would return to the city so Michael made it to
00:38:47
LA in late May and was almost immediately picked up by the police but just for hitchhiking ah the officer who
00:38:55
stopped him padded him down for weapons uh but whether because of his inexperience or discomfort he didn't
00:39:01
bother padding down the area near Michael's stomach and groin and didn't find that Michael was carrying a 38
00:39:08
caliber pistol in his waistband babe where do you usually keep a weapon like that and also like a
00:39:15
fullblown officer and you you took the time to Pat him down for weapons but missed a [ __ ] 38 caliber pistol at
00:39:23
his waistband of all hisband hello like come on still Michael assumed that they were picking him up for Clark or Karen's
00:39:30
murder and this was the end for him but he was shocked when a few minutes later the officer let him go it turned out
00:39:36
that the police were searching for a rape suspect who matched Michael's General descriptionn but when it turned
00:39:42
out to not be him they just let him go without any further questions so to Michael the fact that he had not been
00:39:48
arrested or even recognized when he was picked up by the police was thanks to some kind of divine intervention and he
00:39:55
took it as a sign that he and Susan were safe to start moving back towards South
00:39:58
uh towards Southern California again but the timing you know couldn't have been any more perfect as the couple got back
00:40:05
on the road John Walker's dog started digging through a pile of Ash and manure on the farm oh damn and eventually
00:40:12
Unearthed a scorched human skull which he brought back to the house for Walker to discover imagine your dog just
00:40:19
bringing you a scorched human skull no that would be lifechanging yeah yeah you don't come back from that you
00:40:28
would never be the same ever no and by that point there were two predominant theories about Clark's death either John
00:40:34
Walker had killed him or Michael Carson had done it damn and given that the body
00:40:39
was found on his property John Walker thought there was a pretty good chance that he would be the one to take the
00:40:43
fall for the murder if he tried to cover it up so despite the risk to his operation cuz remember he is uh
00:40:49
operating a weed farm which is illegal yeah still he reported the discovery to the police so he did the right thing
00:40:56
damn the had completely devastated Clark Stevens's remains but remarkably his wallet somehow survived the fire and
00:41:04
that allowed investigators to identify him without much trouble wow yeah Walker told the detectives everything he knew
00:41:11
about Stevens and more importantly everything he knew about the couple he suspected of Killing Him Michael and
00:41:17
Susan according to Walker the couple was strange and everybody on the farm usually just uh referred to them as the
00:41:23
anarchists the anarchists and that was because they were constantly qu quoting from the Anarchist Cookbook which is a
00:41:30
1971 Manifesto that included instructions for making bombs and other weapons of Guerilla Warfare wow okay
00:41:38
yeah just walking around a a peaceful Farm quoting quoting that like the murder of Karen Barnes Clark Stevens's
00:41:44
murder quickly turned into an investigative headache Not only was this victim an off- the grid kind of guy but
00:41:51
the suspects were equally and frustratingly mysterious the other thing working against investigators was the
00:41:56
fact that that in a part of humbal County known almost exclusively for its marijuana industry finding reliable
00:42:03
Witnesses who are actually willing to talk to the police was essentially impossible so in almost no time at all
00:42:09
the investigation into Clark's murder went cold and it would still be several more months before the case broke open
00:42:15
damn so now we have two murders yeah now when investig investigators in Hol County were finally able to search
00:42:22
Michael and Susan's camper van on the farm they made several surprising discoveries that pretty much confirmed
00:42:28
what they had already learned about the couple among other things detectives found a box of 38 caliber ammunition
00:42:34
which was the caliber again used in Clark Stevens murder M they found a driver's license for a man named Richard
00:42:40
ARA which turned out to have been stolen the previous year awesome a copy of Michael's Manifesto which was titled cry
00:42:47
for war oh yeah and as far as the investigators could tell the manuscript was really not much more than ramblings
00:42:54
of a very disturbed mind not shocked but it also included a number of very alarming comments including labeling
00:43:01
high-profile people like President Ronald Reagan Vice President Bush and California Governor Jerry Brown as
00:43:08
targets Who quote must be eliminated because they are witches whoa yeah in the days that followed the discovery of
00:43:16
Clark Stevens body investigators in northern and southern California had been in contact and had strong reason to
00:43:22
believe that the couple suspected in the Stevens murder weren't just uh Suspects
00:43:27
and the Barnes murder had also had a handful of run-ins with the law in the past 2 years but the problem was at that
00:43:34
point Michael and Susan were off to the wind again they're just off just no knows where the [ __ ] they are yeah
00:43:40
they're on the on the Y Michael and Susan spent months just camping and Hiking throughout Northern and central
00:43:46
California they just retreated deeper and deeper into that shared psychosis and their delusions were spinning wildly
00:43:53
out of control that's so SC it's so like yucky to think about like think about the stress the anxiety the
00:44:02
paranoia the hate the the smell like all of that just like makes my like stresses
00:44:09
my nervous system out to think about yeah the lack of showering all of it the lack
00:44:15
of good at allic anything love compassion empathy anything good Humanity any of that all those
00:44:24
adjectives yeah at some point also Susan received what she believed was a message
00:44:29
from Allah she said commanding them to go to Texas to continue their war against demonic forces okay so in late
00:44:38
fall of 1982 they started heading south to do just that they reached Bakersfield
00:44:43
California on January 11th 1983 where they were able to flag down a passing truck driver who actually stopped to
00:44:51
give them a ride the driver introduced himself as John helier and asked whether they had a joint which they did what
00:44:58
does that say cash ass or grass oh yeah they had grass they had grass they had grass so later during their trial
00:45:05
Michael and Susan would claim that John the driver of this truck had attempted to sexually assault Susan and that
00:45:10
Michael killed him in defense of his common law wife Incorrect and really cool of you to
00:45:16
try to Sully that man's name in death yeah especially when you hear more about this man and what he was willing to do
00:45:22
for them like you guys can go [ __ ] yourselves because before that Susan would tell everyone that she immediately
00:45:28
recognized Jon as a powerful witch and somebody who needed to be eliminated they are meeting so many powerful
00:45:35
witches it's crazy yeah powerful witches everywhere a few years later they would
00:45:39
also make a similar claim telling a reporter that they quote plotted the death of helier because he was a witch
00:45:45
triple Scorpio who was making sexual advances toward Susan Carson punishable by death under their
00:45:52
faith whoa what does the triple Scorpio of it all have to do not sure with that poor Scorpio Scorpios get a bad wout I
00:45:59
was just gonna say like poor triple SC Scorpios out there I know Scorpios in general get such a bad R Scorpios out
00:46:05
there this one's for you I'm pouring a false a fake thing out me too pour out for Scorpios yeah anyway
00:46:13
Michael and Susan changed their story so many times that most of the time to include their weird ideology so it's
00:46:19
impossible to know what really happened next but what is known is that as the sun started to set over Bakersfield Jon
00:46:25
generously allowed them to stay at his house until the next morning rather than send them back out on the highway to
00:46:31
keep hitchhiking he was like you know like it's the middle of the night like why don't you just crash here at my
00:46:37
[ __ ] home yeah what pieces of [ __ ] these guys are and the next morning he even offered to drive them back to the
00:46:43
main road where they would have been more than likely to catch another ride he was like let me get you further out
00:46:49
so that you can actually keep going like he's just helping them out yeah as they
00:46:53
drove Michael sat anxiously between John and Susan in the cab of the truck just waiting for the right moment to pull out
00:46:58
his gun because the previous evening as they just laid next to each other being [ __ ] disgusting Susan made it very
00:47:04
clear to Michael that JN was a demon and a very powerful witch and that they needed to eliminate him so wait he's a
00:47:10
demon and a witch both those are not two separate entities no they're different they're the same demon witch triple
00:47:17
Scorpio three different all the same thing oh I thought it was it seems to her like it's all the same it's one guy
00:47:22
it's like they're even scarier if they're all three wow you know who who would have known I think I thought
00:47:29
demons and witches were separate and I I didn't even put Scorpios into the equation well silly mistake you made I
00:47:35
know I'm crazy silly mistake so the time finally arrived as far as Susan was concerned they needed to do it that
00:47:42
night yeah but Michael was reluctant to do it right then so the next since they're staying in his home yeah exactly
00:47:47
I guess he just didn't want to murder a man in his own home but the next morning
00:47:51
when John started to slow down as they approached just a roadside Fruit Stand Michael finally produced the 38 pistol
00:47:58
and pointed it right at Jon after a few seconds of confusion Jon slammed on the brakes and turned off the ignition and
00:48:05
jumped out of the truck to run but Michael was fast behind him and once outside they both started fighting in
00:48:11
the grass as Michael was just trying to aim the pistol so just like rolling around in the grass and Jon's trying to
00:48:17
fight him off as they were just wrestling on the ground helier spotted the guy operating the Fruit Stand and he
00:48:23
yelled to the kid for help but the teenager just stood there and stared at them and all oh come on it's like I
00:48:30
understand being scared in that situation but like you got to do something to help anything I don't know
00:48:35
what run the opposite way for help yeah do literally anything now uncertain that
00:48:39
he could overpower JN himself Michael yelled to Susan for help asking her to stab him my God and Susan ran over and
00:48:45
did her best to but since they were moving so quickly and sharply she wouldn't have been able to stab Jon
00:48:51
without potentially stabbing Michael so instead she tried to stick her finger in
00:48:55
Jon's eye but she unintentionally ended up jaming her finger into his mouth which he bit
00:49:03
down super hard on and nearly severed her stupid finger hell yeah yeah after losing control of the gun Jon managed to
00:49:10
push Michael off of him and ran to the truck to grab his toolbox probably trying to find something to defend
00:49:16
himself but as soon as he reached the toolbox Michael fired a shot the bullet grazed Jon's head and he dropped his
00:49:22
toolbox in an attempt to flee altogether he ran around the side of the truck and
00:49:27
unexpectedly ran right into Susan who knocked him to the ground and he was just laying helpless in the Grass at
00:49:34
that point Michael approached and shot him twice in the head that's awful yeah and he just he was so desperate fighting
00:49:42
for his life like and imagine like helping these people did was help them yeah and that's what happens and went
00:49:49
out of his way to help them like that's crazy so with John helier now dead the couple started walking back to the truck
00:49:56
and that's when they spotted a car slow down which uh the car actually came to a
00:50:00
Full Stop to investigate somebody in the passenger seat reached down and grabbed
00:50:04
the toolbox off the ground and then the car sped away and the incident reminded Susan and Michael that not only had
00:50:11
their crime been witnessed by that teenager at the Fruit Stand but also by the driver of the car who stopped to
00:50:16
pick up the toolbox yeah and now it was only a matter of time before somebody called the police damn unbeknownst to
00:50:22
them somebody already had while JN was trying to uh flee the situation a delivery driver passed the scene and
00:50:29
witness Michael point the gun and shoot helier in the head wow Michael and Susan
00:50:35
had not made it more than a few miles in hel's truck when three uh hburg police patrol cars caught up with them on
00:50:42
Highway 101 after hearing an all points bulletin that was put out by the Sona County Sheriff's Department Susan and
00:50:49
Michael LED them on a wild high-speed chase it changed directions up and down Soma and Napa counties and and in time
00:50:57
the heldsberg officers were joined by officers from the Calistoga I think it is and St Helena uh or Helena police
00:51:04
departments as well as officers from the California Highway Patrol during the chase one of the officers actually
00:51:11
crashed his patrol car and luckily the two officers were fortunately uninjured but it just shows you how insane this
00:51:18
was yeah after 45 minutes of very dangerous Pursuit Michael pulled the truck off Highway 29 and lost control of
00:51:27
the wheel so they crashed into a ditch damn which is where they belong I was just going to
00:51:33
say jumped from the vehicle exchanged gunfire with the pursuing officers and then ran off into a nearby Vineyard
00:51:41
Jesus it's insane holy [ __ ] yeah Napa County sheriff's deputies eventually caught up with them it literally took a
00:51:47
few minutes and that was as they were trying to cross a shallow River and finally both of them were taken into
00:51:53
custody with no further incident wow can you imagine you like you just go to work
00:51:59
one day and you're like oh it's like a Tuesday it might be a crazy day you never know obviously as a police officer
00:52:04
what's going to happen I can't imagine that you wake up just thinking this is going to Happ anticipating this this bat
00:52:10
[ __ ] crazy stuff is going to happen to you like no my God you're going to come
00:52:13
across these two idiots yeah at the time of their arrests Michael and Susan identified to the uh identified
00:52:20
themselves to the authorities as married couple Mike Michael and Susan bear oh but it did not take long for the
00:52:26
authority to discover that their real names were James Clifford Carson and Susan Thornell Hamilton what well now
00:52:35
while Susan didn't quite rename herself she was spelling Susan with a z but her real name was spelled with an S just wow
00:52:41
okay she was just being different okay contrary to what they said they also were not legally married uh but they
00:52:47
considered themselves common law husband and wife in time pieces of Michael and Susan's past would be Unearthed but
00:52:53
those pieces didn't really explain the crimes that they were believed to have Comm aded before meeting Susan with an S
00:53:00
Michael lived with his wife and daughter in Arizona he has a daughter he has a daughter uh and I I don't name her I
00:53:08
think she has done press but like I don't want to name her if she doesn't want to be named here so his daughter
00:53:13
told a reporter in 2015 when my mom met my father he was a nice Jewish boy wow picture this guy just a nice Jewish boy
00:53:21
yeah and look at what he's doing now yeah when his daughter was just four years old I guess started exhibiting
00:53:27
strange beliefs and behavior that hinted at possibly an undiagnosed mental illness clearly but he never received
00:53:34
any treatment even though I'm sure his wife and his family was urging him to yeah
00:53:39
but as a result of his increasingly or his increasing instability the relationship between Michael and his
00:53:45
wife started to crumble and they ended up divorcing Michael's daughter said no one could have foreseen this especially
00:53:51
how weird it got typically your Jewish F father doesn't convert to Islam than to
00:53:56
some weird religion where they grow pot and kill gays wow cuz that's what they said they were doing and she was four
00:54:01
when this all started to happen he started displaying strange Behavior that's horrifying and I think his wife
00:54:06
was probably like hey we got to figure this out like you got to talk to somebody but well and it's even worse
00:54:11
because it's like at four sorry I dropped my water botle everybody um at 4 you very much like know father your
00:54:19
parent you know what I mean and to have him suddenly turn into a diff a totally different person and then like disapp
00:54:26
damn well and before he left her some weird [ __ ] went down where like Susan was a part of her life which is even
00:54:32
scarier yeah just wait oh God this girl's Mom though Michael's ex-wife she knew what was like she was like no we're
00:54:40
not she's a real one okay so not long after splitting with his wife Michael met Susan Hamilton at a Thanksgiving
00:54:48
party of all places in 1977 and they very much hit it off like Michael Susan was also married and also living in
00:54:56
Arizona and she too had been struggling with mental illness damn at the time she was
00:55:01
married to a newspaper executive and was raising two children I did not see this
00:55:05
no but her life was sidelined by a schizophrenia diagnosis that eventually ended up uh ruining her marriage
00:55:13
Michael's daughter told The Daily Beast she was living this Posh Country Club lifestyle before she started using LSD
00:55:19
and got involved with my father this is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard
00:55:23
same same like I did not I thought these two rolled up out of the dirt like this
00:55:30
like I thought they were both just rolling through like pig pen if you there's like pictures of mik I couldn't
00:55:36
find any of or no I actually did see one there's pictures of both of them before
00:55:41
you know they met each other and you oh I'm looking at him right now took the path they did absolutely bizarre she's
00:55:46
literally like it's like what his daughter said she's a posh Country Club early and he's a nice Jewish boy and
00:55:54
also his daughter is ad yeah I saw one photo where she was holding up a picture of them when she
00:56:01
was little it's like heart adorable so despite the end of their respective marriages Michael tried to maintain a
00:56:07
connection with his daughter while Susan had no interest in her and actively tried to drive a wedge between Michael
00:56:13
and his old life honestly [ __ ] her Susan Sucks asses so does Michael but [ __ ]
00:56:18
Susan this is horrible during their last visit in Arizona Susan actually attacked
00:56:24
Michael's daughter what his daughter recalled I asked her to rub my back before I went to bed and she scratched
00:56:31
my back and she said she was going to get the demon out of me but more frightening to me than the injury was
00:56:37
what she was saying you can fool your father but I know you're the devil and I'm going to get this demon out of you
00:56:43
she's a little girl and she asked this woman to rub her back before bedtime cuz she's probably like I'm sure she missed
00:56:50
her mom or she was uncomfortable and she's like can you just rub my back while I fall asleep and this woman it
00:56:56
attacks her and tells her she has a demon inside of her [ __ ] Susan and this and [ __ ] Michael for bringing this crazy
00:57:05
[ __ ] into his child's life yes [ __ ] them both this poor little girl like you
00:57:11
kids believe things and kids take things to Heart like this poor little girl probably thought she had a demon inside
00:57:16
her that she was the devil yeah like what the [ __ ] that's I can't imagine what that would do to a child's psych
00:57:22
yeah that would be it I'd be like [ __ ] you you're never seeing that child again
00:57:25
well the incident was the last [ __ ] straw for the girl's mother who severed all communication
00:57:31
with her ex-husband and effectively went into hiding in order to avoid any future
00:57:36
incidents like that but I hate that they had to do that because of him being a complete [ __ ] and her being a
00:57:42
dangerous piece of [ __ ] yep that sucks oh I hate that that happened to her yeah
00:57:48
but I'm so happy that her mom was like [ __ ] this I'm taking you out of this situation and how scary for her mom in
00:57:53
the 70s like and to have to worry about him like appearing somewhere you have to
00:57:57
literally go in hiding because of this [ __ ] yeah and you know that no I'm sure she thinks he's dangerous cuz God
00:58:03
only knows what she heard of course and then this woman attacks her daughter she's probably terrified oh my God
00:58:10
wouldn't be a safe place on Earth for that woman let me tell you I'm telling you not long after Susan's marriage
00:58:15
ended she and Michael left Arizona and they decided to travel to Europe they were living off of her trust fund she's
00:58:22
a trust fund baby shut the [ __ ] up Susan has a everyone and so they they go to Europe
00:58:30
they're backpacking and they're just feeding on each other's increasingly bizarre beliefs and manic energy they
00:58:36
started experimenting with a variety of psychedelic drugs which further distorted their thinking and exacerbated
00:58:42
their shared psychosis because this isn't like drug therapy this is them just dropping LSD all
00:58:49
[ __ ] mentally ill like you need a doctor you guys and imagine both of them have just abandoned their children yeah
00:58:56
he she had two tripping balls in Europe with each other and living off her trust
00:59:02
fund and living off her trust fund while like just abandon their families what absolute pieces of [ __ ] they were now in
00:59:11
time they developed an ideology and belief system very unique to their existence but they drew heavily on a
00:59:17
very poor understanding of Islam and other world religions like we said earlier they just bastardized a bunch of
00:59:24
different religions Cherry Picked what they want exactly to just you know be strange they made up their own religion
00:59:30
they did yeah they just took things from other religions exactly and they took things and like Twisted them and made
00:59:37
them very dangerous dangerous and awful yeah to Susan and Michael they were warriors for Allah who strove to live a
00:59:45
life of Purity Purity question s is the Purity in the room with us where the [ __ ] has the Purity been in all this not
00:59:52
here and they said they were communicated communicated committ they were Comm medicated to be honest they
00:59:57
were committed to eradicating the world of demons and witches who they believed walked freely among the unsuspecting
01:00:03
people of the world wow I'm not really sure how to respond to that that's good that means I think
01:00:10
you're normal yeah when they returned to the US from Europe they lived a somewhat
01:00:14
nomadic lifestyle traveling up and down the California coast and into bordering states they were trafficking drugs and
01:00:21
just living off the grid yeah just abandoning their kids and just living off the grid you know fun and it was
01:00:26
this lifestyle that put them into contact with people like Karen like Clark and John all people who did not
01:00:32
need to ever come in contact with these pieces of [ __ ] no not at all while the
01:00:37
Press dug deeper into Michael and Susan's backgrounds the authorities did their best to get any information out of
01:00:42
the couple but they would not budge both were being held without bail in the Sona
01:00:46
County jail for the murder of John helier at this point but they refused to speak to investigators about themselves
01:00:52
or the crimes that they were accused of committing during their arraignment in late January it gets super bizarre their
01:00:58
trial in there it gets more bizarre yeah their pre-trial and their trial is so bizarre uh during their arraignment in
01:01:05
late January Michael declared that he and Susan were quote political prisoners no and were victims of a quote
01:01:11
conspiracy to deprive them of their right to a public trial false incorrect the arraignment was repeatedly derailed
01:01:19
by outbursts including an hour-long delay after Susan angrily opposed the presence of her public defender her
01:01:26
public defender she told the judge I won't let that man near me he is not my attorney he will never be my attorney my
01:01:33
husband's attorney is my attorney whoa incorrect the arraignment of Susan Michael Carson was for those inv
01:01:40
involved the first glimpse into a long journey ahead of them as far as a trial went nearly every statement made by
01:01:47
their respective attorneys or even the judge was met with outrage mostly from Susan who demanded that they be tried
01:01:54
together and even went as far as to threaten to starve herself until that demand was met so just let her exactly
01:02:02
when the judge insisted that they be evaluated by a psychiatrist Susan again reacted with Defiance and told the judge
01:02:08
doctors we don't do doctors they are like swear words to us we do not have diminished capacity we are perfectly
01:02:15
sane debatable debatable debatable debatable I'm also like doctors that's like a swear word it's like wow I'm also
01:02:22
like I love that doctors are like a swear word to you which like a swear word is bad but you're full-blown
01:02:27
murderers yeah like straight up murderers like you kill people like kill and plan to get away with it murderers
01:02:35
and plan the murder ahead of time like you are murderers yeah yeah Susan and Michael's Antics in and out of the
01:02:41
courtroom obviously had the press and all they all watched and waited for any new updates in the case and as it
01:02:47
unfolded in the months that followed when they showed up for a a preliminary hearing in early March Susan and Michael
01:02:53
stood next to each other and matching maroon jail jumpsuits just whispering and giggling like children and they've
01:03:01
killed people killed people remember that killed people yeah and this is a preliminary hearing and they're like LOL
01:03:07
so funny I hate it I hate it so much when Judge Gary um an Antolini threatened to
01:03:14
sanction both of them for their disruptive behavior Michael shouted long live the IRA death to the queen and was
01:03:21
immediately removed from the courtroom I mean now you're just saying [ __ ] you're just being disruptive
01:03:27
despite their obvious mental illness there was no denying that they both enjoyed being in the spotlight and they
01:03:33
very much sought the attention of the press whenever they could get it yeah they liked this and they made
01:03:37
provocative statements on purpose to get their attention for example when they C
01:03:42
uh they complained to a San Francisco journalist that they weren't getting enough coverage in the San Francisco
01:03:47
press their statements only strengthen the investigation into their connection to the murder of they're like maybe we
01:03:53
did this yeah like I want more attention and it's like when you see like real mental illness it's so different from
01:04:02
this like this is clearly mental illness I'm not saying they're not mentally ill
01:04:06
but I'm saying a lot of this is attention seeking behavior and it's like and a lot of that is sane thinking
01:04:12
Behavior yes 90% I would say by the end of April they had started reaching out to various Journal Journal themselves
01:04:19
yeah come on they're reaching out to various journalists around the state and they hoped that they could use the
01:04:24
attention of the press to promote their religious beliefs that's the other thing
01:04:27
yeah by then Michael and Susan had confessed to the reporters that although they were charged with only one murder
01:04:33
they had in fact killed three people they full fully said that and they said uh it was for religious reasons quote
01:04:40
unquote can you sitting there saying it's for religious re reasons yeah you killed someone for religious reasons I'm
01:04:50
like and then you're trying to convert people to your religion what about Thou shalt not kill yeah that's apparently
01:04:57
not part of theirs hello yeah they left that one out intally said Cherry Picked exactly and this is just awful according
01:05:04
to Michael witchcraft homosexuality and abortion are all causes for death and they were only following all's orders
01:05:11
When They carried out their crimes um what does it say about abandoning your whole family or um hurting a child on
01:05:18
purpose and telling them that you were going to remove the devil out of them physically they didn't pick that part
01:05:22
that wasn't in there no not in their not in their special wit being gay an abortion yeah let's do
01:05:29
that totally also like that's weird because no one you met seemed to have uh like I didn't that that wasn't part of
01:05:36
any of the story yeah I didn't see any of it so what wow in May Michael and Susan held a press conference where they
01:05:43
confessed to killing Karen Barnes Clark Stevens and John helier Michael told reporters Susan ordered each killing as
01:05:50
Susan sat beside him and just smiled widely she was like yeah I did oh my God I have I want to punch in the face like
01:05:56
violence is not the answer but I want to punch this one in the face violence is not the answer it's the desire it's true
01:06:02
according to Michael Clark Stevens had quote abused Susan sexually nope no evidence of that and he said therefore
01:06:09
he had to be killed and despite their confession when they appeared before a judge in miday for the murder of Karen
01:06:14
Barnes both entered a plea of not guilty like you I'm sorry what can we rewind to
01:06:20
the press conference you held roll tape eventually they would both resend those confessions to all three murderers and
01:06:25
pleaded not guilty tall of the charges awesome it seems like obviously the court Romantics and outrageous
01:06:32
statements were an attempt to strengthen the plea deal of diminished capacity for
01:06:37
sure but I it didn't seem to work yeah it didn't seem to work at all they were unsuccessful in January 1984 Michael
01:06:44
Carson was deemed mentally competent to stand trial in San Francisco for the murder of Karen Barnes judge Claude
01:06:50
paraso told the reporter he is articulate this court could not find that he's incompetent and IND at that
01:06:56
Michael had agreed to cooperate with his defense attorney so it's like it it's also like
01:07:01
once they realized that they weren't going to get any kind of ple they slowed it all down of course in May Michael and
01:07:06
Susan went on trial before judge peraso and a packed Courthouse as had been the case up to that point the trial was
01:07:13
constantly derailed by the defendants wild and usually incoherent statements uh it featured several strange Witnesses
01:07:21
including Mo mod uh Riner a so-called good witch that's qu oh there's those hi yeah you never heard of Glenda no uh mod
01:07:30
was hired by the defense to provide expert testimony on the subject of Witchcraft oh she explained white magic
01:07:37
has to do with the with working with the forces of nature to heal to create and to make the most of your life but on the
01:07:43
other hand she explained black magic involves manipulating people by controlling their will this is very West
01:07:50
Memphis 3 when they had the guy who had a male order degree on the stand yes made him say it several times that he
01:07:57
had a male order degree that anybody could get and then they still somehow convicted all three of them yeah yeah
01:08:03
yeah interesting on June 5th 1984 Michael and Susan were both found guilty of the murder of Karen Barnes who they
01:08:10
explained they killed with a frying pan in the kitchen after they claimed she quote used witchcraft to sap Susan of
01:08:18
her health power and Beauty nah I said interesting in their statement to the Press following the verdict Susan's
01:08:26
defense attorney said it's difficult to get a jury to believe in a defense of Witchcraft I mean yeah I'm like are you
01:08:32
sitting there saying that Karen was a witch yeah is that what you're saying are you like implying that that's
01:08:37
definitely being implied at the sentencing hearing a month later Michael and Susan were both sentenced to 25
01:08:43
years to life and when asked if they had anything to say on their own behalf Susan launched into a 40-minute rant
01:08:49
where she paced the floor and flailed her arms wildly and she screamed to the judge I'm crying so I don't care hair
01:08:56
okay what they let her talk for 40 minutes yeah I also like that's interesting because they don't always
01:09:03
Michael was similarly remorseless and told the judge I killed a witch because it's the law of God to do so when you're
01:09:08
first attacked I tell you that I did a righteous act to save the life of my wife someday the Lord will set me free
01:09:14
the Lord God Will Set Me Free spoiler alert he won't in the months that followed Michael and Susan were
01:09:19
subsequently tried for the murders of Clark Stevens and John helier in very similarly disruptive trials and they
01:09:25
were both found guilty and given additional sentences of 25 years to life for each murder I love that I love when
01:09:32
they do that oh it's great I love it after the verdict in the 1985 trial for the murder of John helier Michael told
01:09:39
reporters that he had been quote unquote coerced into not into not taking the stand in his own defense and that
01:09:45
ultimately the entire trial was unfair babe if you had taken the stand in your own dispense it would have gone a lot
01:09:52
worse for you yeah we would have been you would have gotten the same outcome it would built a new prison just to
01:09:57
house you like that you would have been bad in 2015 Michael and Susan Carson both became eligible for parole after
01:10:05
that Federal order dictated California's prison system had become overcrowded and
01:10:10
the state needed to consider releasing elderly prisoners or those unlikely to reoffend and at that point Michael and
01:10:15
Susan were both elderly the families of the victims were completely outraged by the fact that their loved ones Killers
01:10:22
might be released but they were soon relieved to when they learned that both were denied parole good Karen Barn's
01:10:29
Sister Lisa told a reporter I'm so thrilled I was terrified that they may let this crazy monster out doing to uh
01:10:35
due to her being a little old lady it's like do you think her becoming a little old lady is going to change the fact
01:10:41
that she's a crazy dangerous [ __ ] no and she man she just going to be an old crazy dangerous [ __ ] and we don't need
01:10:47
that cuz that's even more manipulative exactly and she was involved in the killings but a lot of times it was her
01:10:53
manipulating Michael into doing so she she's dangerous she doesn't need to do anything she can just manipulate
01:10:59
somebody else to do her bidding yeah at the time neither Susan or Michael seemed
01:11:03
particularly interested in parole and Susan didn't even bother showing up for her parole hearings in 20 in June of
01:11:09
2015 Michael canceled his parole hearing he was busy he told the the committee that he refused to abandon his religious
01:11:16
beliefs oh he's still on it yes I thought they would have gotten rid of that nope in a letter to officials at mu
01:11:22
Creek prison he wrote I know this is absurd no one is going to parole me because I will not and have not
01:11:27
renounced my beliefs you're right in 2020 he became eligible for parole again and the victim's family spoke out
01:11:34
against him with a unified voice this time they were also joined by his own daughter wow who also objected to his
01:11:41
release she said I truly believe that just because he's old does not make him safe yes you are right with his lack of
01:11:47
regret and his views and the hate he's filled with and his uh in his demented mind I think in a year in a year or less
01:11:54
someone else will be dead yes for his own daughter to say that that that holds a lot of weight ultimately his bid for
01:12:02
parole was rejected in the years since their arrest they have uh been suspected of various violent crimes committed in
01:12:09
and around California during the 70s and early ' 80s oh I bet there's plenty there's got to be but there's never been
01:12:15
sufficient evidence produced that could actually link them to those crimes but they are very much suspected for more as
01:12:21
of today they both remain incarcerated and they won't be iig for parole again until 2030 which is not really that far
01:12:29
away D I wonder how old they are now yep 74 and 83 keep them in there keep them in there
01:12:35
forever to say scary scary case scary sad like a lot of these people were gr good people and a like nobody deserves
01:12:45
to be killed no you know that's the thing and especially the way that it all Happ it's awful they like smeared these
01:12:51
people's names too they said that Karen was a witch that Clark was going to sexually abuse uh Susan they said the
01:12:58
same thing about John they said that he actually had yep it's unbelievable yeah they're disgusting yeah a wild they are
01:13:05
disgusting and I'm happy that they're still going to continue to rot me too because they don't seem like they have
01:13:11
any remorse either no they don't at all and they still believe the same things yeah they haven't they still are hate
01:13:17
filled bags of pus so it's like just leave them in there they are bags of pus they are you're right bye [ __ ]
01:13:25
well with all that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that any of
01:13:32
this because e don't be a bag filled with puss don't do it yuck [Music] [Music] [Music]