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Hey weirdos. I am Ash. And I am Elena. And this is Morbid. [music] >> I did that [music] thing where I almost
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said I'm Elena. I don't know why that happens so frequently. >> You just, you know, you feel it in your
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bones. >> Yeah, we're related. I guess >> we are. >> You know. >> Uh, what's up everybody? Hey, Elena's
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alive again. That's nice. >> Um, I saw that most people also have contracted this viral plague that none
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of us can figure out what it is. >> Yeah, it's something. >> Uh, it'll kick your ass, though.
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>> Yeah. >> Um, and I know here's just one little thing. When somebody gets sick, saying
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you're always sick is not helpful in any way. >> No, don't say that. >> Uh, so don't don't do that. Uh,
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[laughter] >> also >> that's not you listening. No, >> that other person >> whoever said that like [clears throat]
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okay shut thank you [laughter] >> shut up helpful >> pull them up >> but yeah it's uh it sucks and my
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littlest one had the flu and yes kids are always sick >> she had the saddest little cough that I
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ever did here I said she was like [groaning] >> yeah it just >> I think yeah >> it was so it was so like horse
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>> it was it really was and she was like down for the count for a couple days. But
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>> she kicks things in the face. She does not hold on to them long. She's like, "Hey, you don't get to stay here."
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>> No, she was still coughing, but she was >> But she said, "Fuck that. I'm fine."
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Yeah. She was like, "I'm going outside in the snow. Bye." >> Yeah. She was like She actually like
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admonished me for not having um snow pants. >> Yeah. She was like, "We're going outside." I said, "I'm sorry. I don't
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have them." And she was like, "Well, will you get some?" And I was like, "Probably not. We're going." Uh, but
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yeah, so hopefully everybody who has this plague, um, you can feel I feel much better because I'm on antibiotics
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now. >> Can I tell you something? You look so much better. >> Oh, yeah. I looked like The Walking
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Dead. >> Christmas morning, I woke up and looked at you and I said, "Maybe it's just
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because it's early." And then the day progressed and I said, "Maybe something's actually really wrong. It's
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getting worse." >> Yeah. You looked really good on your birthday, though. >> I appreciate you. But but [laughter] uh
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she I said that to her on her birthday and she goes, "I'm wearing so much makeup right now." It didn't look like
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it cuz it was the first time I put on makeup in like a thousand years at that point cuz Yeah. Christmas. It was
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Christmas Eve that I really really started feeling it. >> Christmas Eve you looked great, but I
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could tell you were off a little bit. >> Yeah. It was like I I was trying to be like, "Okay, maybe it's just the dry
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air, you know, >> when you had to be like the hostess with the hostess." >> Yeah. So I was like, you know, my throat
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was razor blades and I was like, "I think it's fine. It's dry." Cuz that happens during the winter sometimes.
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Like you wake up and you're like, "Oh, I have a sore throat. What is this?" And you're like drier.
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>> I keep waking up with like a little bit of like a bloody nose. Not like the but
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like dry. >> So it was Christmas morning. I woke up and I was like, "Uh-oh." But I just
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pretended everything was fine cuz it's Christmas morning. >> Yeah. >> Um which was awesome.
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>> It was great. Such a fun morning. >> And it I really only let it let it fall once the kids had gone to sleep on
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Christmas Day. I was like, "Yeah, I don't feel well, everybody." No. And then it was I mean 8 days of
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>> [ __ ] >> no moment of feeling better. Like I was waking up every morning being like what
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what is this? Because usually I feel better after a few days. You know like a couple days in you're like all right I'm
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starting to get on the other side of it. >> I hate to admit this but even my pastina
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could not cure her. >> No. >> My pastina has has cured many in the past at all. >> Yeah. Well this time I had to make I
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made the pastina. had that and now hopefully the bisque will will kick the last of it out of you. I made her a
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sweet potato bisque with like a [ __ ] ton of Sriracha in it. >> I'm really excited for that.
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>> Also, I know you're not like a soupy girl, so I did see this girl on TikTok put it over ground beef.
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>> Ooh. >> And I was like, it sounds a little weird, but I was like, that looks like
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it'd be really good. >> Sounds kind of good to me. >> Yeah. Kind of makes it almost like a
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chili. >> Yeah, I like that. Oo, I might try >> check it. >> But yeah, it was I had one day of a 14
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and 1/ half hour headache. >> Yeah. Uh that I thought I would I was like, "Well, this is it. Goodbye, cruel
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world." Like, I was literally like, "This is this is how I go." >> I would have been so angry.
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>> I cried several times. You cried? >> Yes. Just out of pure frustration of like, I can't get away from this pain
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and I need to do something about it. >> That's the saddest thing I ever did here.
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>> It was bad. This was a bad sickness. >> Damn. >> It's not fun. And I know a lot of you
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are dealing with it, too, because a lot of people were like, "Yep, same plague over here." Like feeling it. I'm so
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sorry. >> Yeah. >> And I don't have any tips for you because the only thing that worked for
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me was my doctor giving me an antibiotic cuz I finally got a sinus infection and
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I got like um >> that was a crazy way to say that. I finally got a sinus infection.
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Sinus infection. >> I'm waiting for one. [laughter] >> But I got like a he called it something.
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And so he was like I'm going to put you No, like the the infection that I had. >> Oh.
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>> And he was like I'm going to put you on an antibiotic. And it was the only thing
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that made me feel better. It's insane because I was with you for like a lot of this. Drew was with you. John was with
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you. And none of us are sick. And I would like to right here on this mic right now. Shout out to my immune
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system. >> Yeah, for real. >> I've been taking a [ __ ] ton of elderberry and zinc.
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>> Well, the good you never get sick. >> Don't say don't you dare. [laughter] Don't you Why the [ __ ] did you just say
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that? >> No, I was being a dick cuz I get the You're always sick. >> Yeah, Elena's always sick. Don't say
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that to me. God damn it. You can never >> I rebuke you. [laughter] No, you have a good immune system.
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>> I think so. Anyways, which is like kind of shocking for a life I led for a while, but you know, what are you going
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to do? >> I think I my my system was in fight or flight for a couple years. >> Yeah.
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>> So, I think it's just shat all over my body. >> I think it's just like I think I was
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born in fight or flight. [laughter] So, my body's just like, what's up? What else is more time to get used to it?
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>> But yeah, other than that, uh thank you so much for the birthday wishes. Yeah,
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this [ __ ] is 40. But they're still coming in and you guys are amazing and you made me feel really good.
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>> 40 is the new 30. >> It is. You like 40 is a great age. I feel >> it's just a goddamn number. I'm not
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worried about it. >> Time's made up. It's not even realistically. It's not even the new
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year. I've been seeing so many I follow so many witchy accounts now that it's like not like it's not the new year.
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>> I mean, it feels like the new year to me. >> No, but it's not because the the earth
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is still resting. It's still frigid. We're supposed to be hibernating. The new year is in the spring when like life
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pops up from the ground again. >> Oh, see, I like New Year being in winter cuz it's like it cleans everything.
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>> Yeah. >> It feels clean. It feels a new >> Yeah. It doesn't feel that new to me.
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>> That's also what that old man told Frankenstein's monster in Frankenstein. >> Such.
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>> He said in the winter the world is clean. >> It is clean and I do like that. I agree.
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>> Um, yeah. Such a good movie. If you guys haven't seen Frankenstein, you got to go
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check it out. I think we talked about this already. >> I think I might talk about it every time
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we [laughter] talk. Like, honestly, we should. I remain obsessed with that movie.
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>> Again, also I feel like I was just shocked because I didn't think like not for any like particular reason. It's
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just like not like super up my alley. Like I wouldn't have thought it would be. >> But then when I watched it, I was like
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blown away. So >> it's GMO. >> Give it a chance if you're if you're on the fence.
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>> Anything GMO is attached to, I'm in. >> Um I can't believe that I didn't just
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like come into the episode screaming this. Tomorrow night we're going to be on Watch What Happens Live. I still
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can't believe that that's a real thing. >> Tomorrow night, we're going to be on Watch What the [ __ ] Happens Live with
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Andy [ __ ] Cohen. And I don't know how to function on a basic human level with that thought in my mind. And
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I still don't know what I'm wearing yet. >> No, I am. >> Am I deciding between eight dresses?
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Yeah, I sure am. [laughter] >> It's SLC night. I need to look like a snow like I need to look like snowflake
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vibes, but like fierce vibes. If Bronnin's there, I got to be camp. Like there's a lot to figure out.
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>> There is. And nobody cares what I look like that honestly. I'm here for the vibes. I'm excited to just watch you
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flip the f like I'm excited cuz I love Bravo shooters. But >> um but this is really I'm very excited
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to see >> Ash live this. >> Yeah. And I'm very excited to live it but on like a different level.
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>> You're living it on We're living it on different levels. >> I'm very excited. But I just like I know
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what this means to Ash. So I'm very excited. >> I appreciate that. And I'm excited to
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live to watch you live it because you get to announce something pretty exciting. I do
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>> that. We can't say yet, >> but >> watch this space. >> You will know if you watch watch what
00:08:32
happens. You'll know >> 10:15 tomorrow night. Check it >> or if you watch this space in our
00:08:38
socials the following day on the 7th. Then you will know there's I'm announcing something. I can't wait. And
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I bet you can't imagine what it is. >> Oh my god, I'm so excited, guys. So many very excited.
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>> So many cool things are happening. We had Alisa Kelly here and she was telling
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us uh about like our personal charts and how like abundant this like next year or
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so is going to be and then I'm taking an astrology class and my teacher had like
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echoed the same sentiment and she said she was like wow you're going to be busy as [ __ ] like the next year or so like
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it's going to be and she was like it's going to be like so successful though and it was the same thing that Alisa
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said and then everything that I've learned I'm like oh [ __ ] I think it might be like super abundant.
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>> Let's go. And that's for both of us. >> I'm in. >> Yeah, we have great placements and I
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just like to thank the universe. >> Yeah, the the the year 2026 starting off >> on a fun note, on a happy note, on a
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>> on a note of letting go of things that don't serve anymore. It's the first year
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that we're starting off at serious. >> Yes. >> So, I feel that's so abundant. >> So different.
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>> That's an abundant energy right there. abundance of happiness, optimism. >> Yeah, it felt very freedom.
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>> This this clock flipping over, I said, "Whoop!" [laughter] You know those you
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know those candles where like people will like tie them together and then they light them to like separate the
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ties, which we did at a certain point. >> We did at one point >> at time. Um, it it feels like that.
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>> No particular reason. >> No particular reason, but yeah, it feels like that is finally like
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>> coming into play. You know what I mean? >> It feels good. >> It does. It feels good.
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>> It feels very good. It feels like we can be we can have a lot of fun this year
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with the show and with the rewatcher and with Scream and all these fun people are
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going to be on the pod >> and Sirius just gets us like I we should say Sirius is the reason that we're
00:10:28
going to be on Watch what happens live because our deal Carrie What's up Carrie love you Carrie figured it all out
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because she knows that like I'm a huge fan. She knows that you are like a New York housewives fan. She's like let's
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[ __ ] do it. >> Yeah. And they just made it happen. So >> Sirius is the best. They've been
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wonderful and we love working with them. >> And that was my computer talking to us
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because [laughter] it said I'm the best too, >> you know. >> Um, what's not the best is that bad
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things happen in life and >> we talk about them. But the good thing is that we can talk about them together.
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>> We can. >> And that's the whole premise of the show. >> Wow, that was beautiful.
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>> Thank you. >> I really liked that. >> Thank you so much. Uh, so we're going to
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be talking today about the pizza bomber conspiracy. Oh >> yeah. I think we talked about this like
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briefly in an episode because I kept waking up in the night to the trailer on Netflix. I remember that vividly. So do
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I. >> Yes. >> It was just this one picture that was very frightening. >> Yeah. Cuz what is the name of the
00:11:28
documentary? It's like a >> evil something. Evil Genius. >> I think it's something like that. Evil
00:11:33
Genius. >> Evil Genius. Yeah. I thought >> And I vividly remember that and I remember you were you were like I keep
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waking up to [laughter] this. I think it was like earlier days of the pod when I
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was a little more free with my words. I probably was super explicit about how that made me feel back then.
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>> I mean it it's rough. >> It was scary. >> That is not something you Yeah. It came
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out in 2018. >> Yes. Yeah. So it was early days of the [laughter] early go back and you'll know
00:11:56
exactly how I felt about waking up to that. >> Um but let's actually talk about the
00:12:00
story because this is uh something we like like I just said briefly talked about but we've never gone into full
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detail. >> So let's get into it. So let's go. We'll start at the beginning. >> That's a great place to start.
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>> I always say I can't believe Also, this happened in like 2003, by the way, which
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is nuts. >> I know. Which feels like it was 10 years ago. >> Oh, to me not at all.
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>> Oh, literally it feels like it was 10. Like what? I literally said, "Here's to
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2006 last night." >> Yeah. >> When me and my kids and my husband cheered. >> That's on
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>> with our apple cider or sparkling cider. >> 2006. >> And John was like, "It's 2026, babe."
00:12:36
>> Yeah. He said, "You're 28." I was like, first of all, I'm on cold medicine and
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second of all, can it be 2006 again? >> You said, let women have opinions, John,
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on the time frame. [laughter] >> You said trust women. >> It's 2006. >> So, [laughter] all right. So, it was not
00:12:53
2006 here. It was 2003. And it was a little past 2:30 in the afternoon when 46-year-old Brian Wells walked into the
00:13:00
lobby of the PNC Bank on August 23rd. At first, nobody really noticed him. He was
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just kind of like another guy sitting in a line of customers. But when he got to
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the counter, the teller was caught off guard because in his right hand, Brian was holding what kind of looked like a
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cane, but he wasn't using it as a cane. Like it didn't look functional. >> That would upset me.
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>> Yeah, that would be pretty upsetting. Uh what would be even more uh upsetting is
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in the other outstretched hand, he held what investigators later described as an
00:13:27
extensive note for the teller. The note part of it said, "Gather employees with access codes to vault and work fast to
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fill bag with $250,000." >> Damn. >> You have only 15 minutes. >> Oh, I would immediately lose my mind.
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>> [ __ ] if I have $100 in cash, I can't count that in 15 minutes. That takes a
00:13:46
minute. >> That'd be so stressful. So, when the teller looked up from the note, Wells
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lifted his shirt to reveal a really bizarre device that looked like it was locked around his neck with a large
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handcuff, like what looked to be a large handcuff. >> And on the front of the cuff, there was
00:14:02
a small box that allegedly contained an explosive device with an electronic timer that was hanging down over his
00:14:09
chest. You got to look up pictures of this to like really get a picture of it. It's the most horrifying thing you will
00:14:16
ever see. But according to the note that he handed the teller, the device was rigged to explode within 15 minutes. And
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if they didn't hand over that amount of cash in that time frame, everybody in the bank, including Brian, would be
00:14:28
killed in the explosion. So the teller explained that that wasn't going to be possible because the bank vault was on a
00:14:35
timer. So there was literally no way that he could get in they could get inside to get that money. So instead,
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they all emptied the cash from the drawers into the bag, which was a total of $8,72.
00:14:46
>> Very different. from 250,000. >> Yeah. >> And they handed it over to him. He took
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a lollipop and slowly made his way out the door. >> The fact that he took a lollipop
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>> just really offends me. >> Not only did he take a lollipop, he was also like swinging the cane as he walked
00:15:03
out the door just like gingerly wearing an explosive device strapped around his neck and chest.
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>> I Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So once he got outside, he hopped into his geometro and he sped away from
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the scene while the staff in the bank said, "Hello, 911. I would like to report a [ __ ] robbery."
00:15:23
>> Hello. Hello. About 15 minutes later, two state troopers on patrol spotted Wells standing outside of his car in a
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parking lot not too far from the bank. And as they approached him, they also noticed the large bulge around his neck.
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And they were like, "That's strange." But they kept approaching and he seemed surprised as they tackled him and threw
00:15:42
him to the ground, cuffing his hands behind his back. >> Yeah. He didn't resist arrest, but he
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explained that even though he was the person who, yes, had just robbed the bank, he was just as much a victim as
00:15:52
anybody else was. According to Brian, he had been accosted by a group of young black men earlier that afternoon, his
00:15:59
words. And they cuffed the bomb around his neck and told him that they were only going to remove it once he robbed
00:16:06
the bank. and he yelled at them, the police, warning them it's going to go off. I'm not lying.
00:16:12
>> So, this is serious as [ __ ] >> If if that is true, cuz I don't know what came out of this, so I don't know
00:16:19
what the theories are. I don't know what any of this is. >> If that's true, that is the scariest
00:16:23
thing I have ever heard in my life. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Is you're sitting there with an
00:16:26
explosive device around your neck that you know is real. >> Yeah. >> And you're sitting there being like, I
00:16:31
swear I'm not. Please get this thing off of me. >> Yeah. And everybody's just like
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>> it sounds like saw cuz that's the thing. >> That's all I could think of in the
00:16:39
beginning of this. I was like this literally sounds like do you want to play a game?
00:16:41
>> Like are you sure it wasn't like an older white man who who put that around your neck?
00:16:46
>> Yeah. >> Like are you sure? An ailing white man. >> Funny you should say that.
00:16:50
>> So the troopers ordered Wells to sit on the ground beside his car and they obviously backed away slowly to their
00:16:55
cars. They called the bomb squad, called reinforcements to the scene. And just as
00:16:59
troopers were calling for backup, a TV news crew arrived at the scene and started filming this very bizarre, drawn
00:17:06
out arrest, which it's like the video is available and it's absolutely horrifying. It does not end well.
00:17:13
>> So for 25 minutes, Brian Wells just sat on the ground beside his car, his hands
00:17:18
cuffed behind his back, his legs were curled underneath him, and they were just sitting there waiting for the bomb
00:17:23
squad, yelling back and forth to each other, like him and the officers. He asked if they would call his boss at
00:17:29
Mamma Mia's pizzeria to tell them that he was being detained and like wasn't going to make it back to work.
00:17:34
>> And then he yelled, "Why is nobody trying to come get this thing off of me?" >> Oh.
00:17:39
>> And then >> this is really upsetting. >> It's really upsetting. And this next
00:17:42
part is even more upsetting. Then without warning, the device around his neck started making a beeping sound that
00:17:49
was accelerating. And for the first time that afternoon, he became like visibly anxious and started scooting backwards
00:17:56
on the g on the ground. And they're yelling at him like, "You need to stay put." But
00:18:00
>> how do you in that situation? >> What? >> And a few seconds later, to the shock
00:18:05
and horror of absolutely everybody at that scene, the device around his neck detonated, knocking him onto his back,
00:18:12
obviously, and it ripped a 5in hole through his chest. >> Oh my god. >> Which obviously killed him instantly.
00:18:18
And three minutes later, the bomb squad arrived. Oh, >> like that sucks. It does. So, for the rest of
00:18:27
the day, agents from the local office of the FBI along with agents of the Bureau
00:18:31
of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and the local police all just converged on the explosion scene trying to figure out
00:18:37
what the [ __ ] had happened there. It was clear that he was the man who robbed the
00:18:41
bank earlier that day, and he said as much, and like his face had clearly been seen on camera. But what was unclear was
00:18:48
if he was a willing participant in the robbery or if he had been put up to it like he said. And obviously they
00:18:53
couldn't just take his word at face value >> because it wouldn't seem that he's a
00:18:57
willing participant if that thing is locked around his neck and he's sitting there being like you got to get it off
00:19:01
me. >> And the fact that it did explode like why would anybody ever sign up for that,
00:19:05
you know? So through interviews with his friends and co-workers, investigators were able to put together a picture of
00:19:10
Brian's life that indicated he really wasn't the kind of person who would have likely been able to pull off a stunt
00:19:17
like this. >> Okay. >> His boss, Tony Detoro, told a reporter, "I've known Brian for a long time. He
00:19:22
wouldn't kill a fly. He wouldn't harm nobody." Others who knew him said the same thing. His coworker Jim Sabowski
00:19:28
said, "He never seemed mad. I never heard him talk of violence. That's why this crime doesn't fit him. Not at all."
00:19:34
Oh, that's And the fact that he had them like call his boss. >> Yeah. To say like he wasn't going to be
00:19:38
late or not be there. Yeah. That broke my heart. >> It's very sad. Now, obviously, this kind
00:19:44
of thing happens all the time. Like, we've talked about this. People can conceal certain parts of themselves and
00:19:48
do awful things while putting on a nice face to everyone else in their life. >> But something more compelling was the
00:19:54
descriptions of Brian Wells. A lot of people described him as childlike. People said he was too simple, their
00:20:00
words, not mine, to have orchestrated something like this. Like it's a very >> put together that bomb.
00:20:06
>> Exactly. According to those who knew him, he had dropped out of high school during sophomore year and he had some
00:20:12
basic uh skills as a car mechanic, but he didn't have a lot of technical skills. So like you were just say like
00:20:17
he struggled using his computer. It wasn't going to be >> putting together a bomb feels like it
00:20:21
would be >> a little advanced. >> Yeah, exactly. So people were like, I don't know. So when investigators
00:20:28
searched his car, they found, among other things, the cane that he was seen holding in the security footage. But
00:20:33
upon closer inspection, it turned out that it wasn't a cane. So that teller was on to something. It was a homemade
00:20:39
shotgun disguised as a cane. [snorts] [ __ ] Isn't that crazy? And similarly, when bomb technicians analyzed the
00:20:46
explosive collar, it was also a very creatively designed device constructed from a locking metal collar and a bunch
00:20:54
of kitchen timers and a small box that held two 6-in pipe bombs. But in addition to the functional parts, there
00:21:02
were also several wires that ran in and out of the box, but connected to nothing. So, whoever put this together
00:21:08
had placed those wires that didn't go anywhere as decoys. I was just going to say it's like little decoy wires.
00:21:14
>> Yeah. To basically like whoever was going to >> [ __ ] with the bomb squad or
00:21:18
>> whatever. Yeah, exactly. That's >> advanced. >> Yeah, they knew what they were doing.
00:21:22
And it was also pretty clear this was not the first time they had built something like this to build it one so
00:21:26
well to be functional and two to add those extra things. >> So it was now abundantly clear that if
00:21:32
Brian Wells was even a willing participant at all, he obviously hadn't acted alone.
00:21:36
>> Yeah. Along with the gun and the bomb, technicians also discovered several handwritten notes, just like the one
00:21:42
that was given to the teller that seemed to be elaborate instructions for what was kind of looked to be like a bizarre
00:21:49
scavenger hunt is like the best way you can put it. >> The notes were all addressed to bomb
00:21:54
hostage and included instructions, but like very complex instructions, drawings, and other information telling
00:22:00
him what he needed to do to survive this. It really is very saw, >> which also doesn't seem make it seem
00:22:06
like he's involved. >> No, exactly. >> It's like he's the hostage. >> Exactly. It's literally addressed to a
00:22:11
hostage. One note said, "There is only one way you can survive this, and that is to cooperate completely. This
00:22:17
powerful booby trapped bomb can be removed only by following our instructions. Act now, think later, or
00:22:23
you will die." >> This is the most soft thing I've ever heard. >> It really is. >> Like, I'm I'm like, "What?" When you
00:22:31
find out how this was all put together, it's actually one of the scariest. No matter what, it's the scariest [ __ ]
00:22:37
you've ever heard. But then you come to find out like who was involved and how this all came to be and the the reason
00:22:44
for why it came to be is just it just doesn't seem to line up with any of this, but it also does at
00:22:51
the same time. It's wild. >> And was this 2003? >> 2003. Yeah. >> What's crazy is Saw the first one came
00:22:57
out in 2004. >> Really? Isn't that crazy? I was expecting there to be some kind of
00:23:02
>> connection there. >> Connection of maybe like somebody saw something, but no,
00:23:06
>> no pun intended. >> That's crazy, huh? >> But wow. >> Remember the day that we just watched
00:23:11
almost all of the Saw movies and John came home from work and was like, "What the [ __ ] are you guys doing?"
00:23:15
>> And I also remember the day that I watched the first Saw movie. >> Yeah. >> And how it changed my entire
00:23:21
>> I think the day that you and I watched them all was the day that I had seen them for the first time. The f the
00:23:25
[clears throat] first Saw movie >> so good changed things. That twist. >> Yeah. >> I'll never I'll never feel that feeling
00:23:33
again. >> I mean, you write a pretty good twist. >> I appreciate that. >> You give that feeling. Oh,
00:23:37
>> Lee Wanell. >> Lee Wanell. >> He gives that feeling. >> You know how she feels about Lee Wanell.
00:23:41
>> Lee Wanell. to listen to the invisible man. [laughter] [music] So, the information gathered during
00:23:59
inter uh an interview with Brian's boss supported the growing likelihood that he
00:24:03
was a victim. Yeah. According to his boss, he had been sent out on a delivery a few hours before the robbery. So he
00:24:08
was like at work that day that this all started like delivering pizzas. >> Delivering pizzas. He got a call. He
00:24:14
went to an address on Peach Street, which was like an industrial area in South Erie.
00:24:19
>> And aside from a television transmission tower, the area where the order was sent
00:24:23
to had a handful of small houses, multiple vacant lots, like it wasn't super populated. It was just like a
00:24:29
smaller town area. >> And given that he left the restaurant a little after 1:30 and never returned,
00:24:35
investigators suspected that's where everything had started. Makes sense. >> FBI agent Bob uh Hebell told reporters
00:24:42
he is sent to a non-resident. He goes where there's no house. Right from the beginning, there's certainly something
00:24:47
suspicious here. >> This is even scarier that he was just doing his job going to a house and they
00:24:52
just snatched him. >> It seems that way >> is what it seems like. And that that idea is terrifying.
00:24:58
>> The entire thing is [ __ ] horrifying. So Wells having been sent to deliver a
00:25:03
pizza to a non-address, like that was weird, obviously, but it wasn't the only weird thing that happened just before
00:25:08
the robbery. At the time of his death, he was wearing two t-shirts and the outer shirt had the guests logo on it.
00:25:14
And according to the people he was working with at the pizzeria that day, he wasn't wearing that shirt when he
00:25:19
left. And his family members insisted they had never seen him wearing that shirt and didn't even think that it
00:25:25
belonged to him. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. It's just weird. >> Like they put that shirt on him. Why?
00:25:29
You know, >> I don't know. I'm trying to think of what would be the >> I don't really understand that piece of
00:25:34
it. Is it supposed to be like ironic? >> Maybe. >> Like, guess what's in here? >> Oh, yeah. Probably.
00:25:41
>> Like, are they like a >> like a weird gross dark? >> Honestly, probably. >> Yeah.
00:25:47
>> Ew. >> I hate that even more. >> I hate that I thought that way, but here we go.
00:25:51
>> We've covered a lot of these cases, so it makes sense. And also, you were just
00:25:54
screaming about Lee Wanell, so it makes sense. >> Very true. >> We know who you I'll forever scream
00:25:58
about Lee [laughter] went home. >> So, while agents were digging into his background and searching his home, a
00:26:03
second set of investigators was trying to complete the scavenger hunt themselves, hoping, you know, maybe it
00:26:09
would lead them to any co-conspirators. After the bank robbery, the note instructed Wells to go to a McDonald's
00:26:14
restaurant nearby and look for a rock near the drive-thru sign. And under that rock, he was to find the next note. That
00:26:22
was as far as he had made it, but he was arrested just after he picked up the note.
00:26:26
>> Okay. So, the team followed the instructions in that note, and that led them to a wooded area out by Peach
00:26:31
Street, which is where they located the next note hidden in a container covered in orange tape. That note directed them
00:26:38
2 miles south to a small road sign where the next clue would be waiting in a jar
00:26:42
in the woods. >> Did he even have time to complete all this? >> Uh, like that's a lot of [ __ ]
00:26:48
>> Yeah, that's it is interesting. I don't >> Did they even give him enough time to
00:26:53
get conceivably through? Like even the container covered in orange tape. >> Yeah,
00:26:57
>> you got to get through that. >> I don't know. It feels like >> we could talk about it later.
00:27:02
>> Okay, >> that's a good point. >> Yeah. >> So, when they got to the location where
00:27:06
the next clue was supposed to be, they found nothing. >> So, they theorized that whoever had been
00:27:11
leaving the clues for Brian Wells had been following his progress and had probably abandoned the plan when they
00:27:17
saw him getting arrested by the state troopers. >> Oh, okay. So, unsurprisingly, the story
00:27:21
about the bank robbery and the collar bomb obviously immediately captivated everybody's attention, like public-wise.
00:27:28
FBI agent Bob Rudge told reporters, "It's not unusual for bank robbers to force tellers to hand over money by
00:27:34
claiming to be carrying explosives, but bank rob bank robbers who are act who actually have explosives are a bit more
00:27:40
unusual. And bank robbers who actually die when bombs go off are virtually unheard of."
00:27:45
>> Yeah. What makes this case different is that the robber was killed. Mhm. But unfortunately, if the press and public
00:27:51
were hoping for easy answers or a quick resolution, they were going to be very disappointed. A flurry of statements
00:27:57
from law enforcement officials went out, but there would really be little to update the press on in the days that
00:28:02
followed. This all just kind of hit a dead end pretty quickly. >> So, within a week of the robbery and
00:28:08
Brian Wall's death, investigators hadn't made any progress on the case, and they
00:28:11
started turning to the public for help. They released pictures of the bomb caller in the hopes that somebody might
00:28:16
recognize it, which I'm like I'm unsure about like imagine just being like, "Oh shit." And this calling in being
00:28:25
>> I saw that at Ted's house. >> Oh my god. I I know that caller like seen that.
00:28:30
>> Like what? >> Yeah. >> I'm not sure about that. >> I mean, you got to try. I guess
00:28:33
>> I guess what else are you going to do? >> You never know. >> I don't Maybe >> criminals can be stupid. So
00:28:37
>> they can and like maybe the way it was constructed might stick out to somebody
00:28:42
>> or like people sold some of the parts to somebody like that giant >> that cuz that giant piece that looks
00:28:48
like a big handcuff is pretty unique. I wonder if somebody was like oh >> I sold that rarely sell those but I did
00:28:54
sell that. >> You just never know. Yeah, but by then the case had obviously attracted
00:28:59
national attention and FBI agents were appearing on news programs like Good Morning America, Here, There, and
00:29:05
Everywhere to talk about the case. Even though there was an increase in public attention, though, new leads were scarce
00:29:10
and the public was growing very frustrated by the lack of progress here, which I can't imagine living in this
00:29:17
area and being like, "So, we don't know who tied a bomb around somebody's neck and are going to do it again." Exactly.
00:29:23
Like, is somebody just going to get kidnapped and have that happen? Imagine delivering pizzas in this place.
00:29:28
>> Oh, I just wouldn't. I'd be like, "Well, I I'll work here and I'll make the pizza, but you are not sending my ass.
00:29:33
>> I'll do I'll do whatever you need in this pizza shop, but I will not be going
00:29:36
out on the street." >> Yeah, [ __ ] I'll clean the toilets in this. >> People who like literally that's their
00:29:42
income. >> Yeah. >> And they're now having to be like, "Cool. I guess I just put my life on the
00:29:47
line delivering these pizzas, which I shouldn't have to be doing." Yeah, >> that sucks.
00:29:53
>> Scary [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So, just days after Brian Wall's death, reporters descended on Erie. Of course,
00:29:59
people are like, "What the like we got to get some kind of story out of this." >> Yeah.
00:30:02
>> And I mean, it's a story in and of itself. >> A lot of them focused on Brian Wall's
00:30:06
co-workers and his family members, which is [ __ ] up. Maybe give them like a minute to grief.
00:30:10
>> Yeah. >> But a reporter and a photographer for the Eerie Times News decided to go out
00:30:14
to the address on Pete Street where Brian had been sent for the pizza delivery, which was pretty smart.
00:30:20
>> I don't know why. It just immediately made me think of Gail Weathers and Kenny.
00:30:24
>> Oh, yeah. >> Just like taking a different route, you know what I mean? >> She would do that.
00:30:28
>> Yeah. >> At first, it didn't really seem like there was a lot to be seen out by the
00:30:32
transmission tower in that whole area. But just as they were about to leave, the reporter spotted a man just standing
00:30:37
in his front yard a few feet from the tower. >> Oo. >> And they were like, there's a story
00:30:41
there. This also reminds me of the reporter and the photographer from um Hell House LLC.
00:30:47
>> Who go back in? >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yep. So, the man that they saw standing in his yard was Bill Rothstein, a local
00:30:54
handyman and a lifelong resident of Erie. He didn't really take much notice of the heavy police presence and obvious
00:31:01
investigation taking place just a few yards from his house. He seemed pretty unbothered by it.
00:31:05
>> Yeah, he's got his own stuff, you know, >> he's vibing. He didn't seem to know
00:31:08
anything about Brian Wells either, but he was happy to talk to the reporter. He even offered to take them on a little
00:31:13
tour of the area around the tower. He said, "These are the trees. These are the houses."
00:31:17
>> He said the ground. This is Peach Street. That's the tower. If you look up, there's sky here.
00:31:22
>> This is my yard. It's my fence. >> It's crazy. >> After about 15 minutes, when he had run
00:31:27
out of things to say, the reporter and the photographer went on their way. >> The Eerie Times News reporter probably
00:31:32
assumed that that would be the first and last time that he would ever talk to or
00:31:36
hear of that man. >> I wouldn't assume that. >> You might after just after that quick
00:31:40
old tour. But less than a month later, Bill's name came up again. This time under very different circumstances. Uh
00:31:47
>> oh. So on September 20th, 2003, Bill Rothstein called 911 and told the dispatcher at 8645 Peach Street in the
00:31:56
garage, there is a frozen body. It's in the freezer. Bill, I love there's a frozen body. It's
00:32:04
in the freezer. He was like, just to be clear, >> it's a little redundant, babe.
00:32:08
>> Just to be clear, it is in a freezer. >> It's in the freezer. Uh >> what, Bill?
00:32:13
>> What have you gotten into, Bill? >> Well, the address. So he gave that address.
00:32:18
>> Okay. >> Like it wasn't his own, but it sure was his own. >> That's his [ __ ] house.
00:32:23
>> Yeah, Bill. >> He said, "Go to this address and you'll find a body in the freezer." By the way,
00:32:28
it's my [ __ ] address. >> Except he didn't say the last part. >> So they were dispatched to his house,
00:32:33
police, where they discovered, in fact, a body in the freezer. >> Was it frozen?
00:32:38
>> Yes. Can you believe it? >> I can't. >> It was the body of James Rooden in Bill's own chest freezer just like he
00:32:45
said. So, he was arrested right then and there on suspicion of murder. >> Bill, you got to come with us.
00:32:50
>> Yeah. They said, "You're coming with us, buddy. >> Thank you so much for letting us know
00:32:54
about this, but you got to come with us." >> Yeah. >> So, Bill was like, "Listen, that guy is
00:32:58
totally in my freezer." Like, I like I said, >> did not kill him, though. I have I have
00:33:03
nothing to do with his death. >> Who among us who hasn't found themselves there? Among Us has not found a body in
00:33:10
their own chest freezer that they didn't murder and had to say, "Guys, I didn't do that. I know this is my freezer.
00:33:17
>> I don't know how you got there." >> Babe, if it's in your house and it's in your freezer, that's now your problem.
00:33:21
>> That's your problem. >> Like in your problem. Exactly. >> You're responsible for that.
00:33:24
>> So he said, "No, I did not kill James Rooden, but I did participate in the cover up of his murder."
00:33:31
>> He said he said that fact had been tormenting him since the moment he agreed to hide the body at his house.
00:33:37
Five weeks earlier. >> Oh, >> you have had a body in your freezer, my guy. Scratch that. Guy.
00:33:46
>> A guy. >> For over a month, Bill. >> And you just called. How much was it really really tormenting you?
00:33:55
>> Bill. What's that about? Bill. Bill. Who are you friends with? Bill. >> Bill.
00:34:00
>> So, he said he >> I was rooting for Bill. >> I was too >> giving his little tour.
00:34:04
>> Yeah. So, this next part's really sad. He said that he was contemplating suicide and he even went as far as
00:34:09
writing a suicide note, but that he changed his mind and he decided to turn himself in instead.
00:34:13
>> I think that is a a good idea. >> So, in their search of his home, investigators did in fact find Bill's
00:34:19
suicide note on his desk written in black marker. The note contained repeated apologies. It identified the
00:34:26
body in the freezer as James Rhoden and insisted that he himself, Bill, had nothing to do with the death and it was
00:34:32
basically everything that he told police when he was arrested. But what was much
00:34:36
more interesting than all the stuff that Bill had already told the police was the
00:34:40
note's opening disclaimer, which read, "This has nothing to do with the Wells case." Referring to Brian Wells. "Why
00:34:49
the [ __ ] would the dead body in your freezer have anything to do with the man who was killed in an explosion after
00:34:54
robbing a bank? Did Did you just tattle on yourself?" Like, what? Period. What What's that? Like what's
00:35:03
that's why would you say that? Why the [ __ ] would you ever say that? >> They would have never in a million
00:35:10
connected those two things >> in a bill. There's nothing that would make you connect those two things except
00:35:15
for location because this was the last >> zebras. Yeah. Like I've said before, >> like sure, location could maybe make
00:35:21
them be like, whoa, weird. Like Peach Street is really [ __ ] popping off over here. Like that could be a thing.
00:35:27
>> Yeah, Peach Street is WY. But like let them do that. let them be like, "Whoa,
00:35:30
Peach Street is," >> you know what? We shouldn't say never in a million years, but like it would have
00:35:34
taken at least a little longer. >> It would have taken a And I just don't know why you would hand them
00:35:38
>> hand them that. >> Well, >> which again, I don't know what this has to do with anything, but it's weird to
00:35:44
point that out. >> It's weird. So, in the days that followed, Bill explained his connection
00:35:48
and how James Rooden had come to be in his freezer. According to him, he got a call from his ex-girlfriend, Marjgerie
00:35:54
Deal Armstrong, whose face I woke up to many nights in 2018. >> That's her face. Okay. He got a call
00:35:59
from her in mid August and she frantically asked for his help. She alleged that she had gotten into a very
00:36:04
heated argument over money with her boyfriend at the time, James Rhoden, and that in the process of that argument,
00:36:10
she had shot him in the back and killed him. So, she offered Bill $2,000 to help
00:36:15
her get rid of James' body and the gun. And Bill said, "Let's go." >> You got You got to not do that.
00:36:21
>> $2,000 is not enough money. Like, I that's a [laughter] lot of money. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. Not
00:36:27
enough to hide a body in your freezer and get rid of a gun. >> When someone calls you, especially an ex
00:36:34
>> and says, >> "You broke up for a reason. >> I just killed my current >> partner." Yeah.
00:36:39
>> Will you help me cover this up? The answer is always no. >> You don't even have to answer. The
00:36:43
answer is dead air. Click. >> One, >> don't answer the phone when your ex calls. That's a really good tip.
00:36:48
>> And you can change their name in your phone to don't answer. >> You can do that. And then two, if you do
00:36:54
by chance answer and they say, "Hey, I just murdered my current partner. Will you please help me fix that?" You say,
00:37:00
"No, thank you." And then you just click. >> In your version, you're polite about it.
00:37:04
>> Yeah. Say, I mean, you should. They're a murderer now. So, like, you should be
00:37:06
like, "No, thank you." >> A little polite. >> No, thank you. Like, >> I do the I'd do the the click and then
00:37:11
I'd go arm my system. >> Yeah. That's a no. >> My system. It's my security. >> No. Thank Thank you so much for thinking
00:37:17
of me. >> Hope you're doing well. >> I've got a lot on my play right now. All the best with that and I wish you luck.
00:37:23
>> My freezer is full of yummies. >> You hang it up and you call 911 and you say, "Uhoh."
00:37:27
>> That's the other thing. You know that Bill had to like take out some TV dinners.
00:37:31
>> Yeah. It's [ __ ] up. >> That's the thing. >> It's [ __ ] up. >> That's a lot for an ex.
00:37:35
>> $2,000. >> Not worth it. >> This is [laughter] [ __ ] up. >> Real [ __ ] up. >> This whole thing.
00:37:41
>> All of it. So, Bill Bill said he had finally decided to go to the policeman just a few days earlier. Marjorie
00:37:47
suggested to him that they use an ice crusher to dismember James Roodin's body. >> I I mean, you give an inch, they're
00:37:56
going to ask for a mile. >> And you know what? You did give an inch, though. So >> So
00:38:00
>> So it turned out that this was not the first time the police in Erie had come
00:38:03
across Marjorie De Armstrong. In 1984, she was arrested for shooting and killing her then boyfriend, Robert
00:38:09
Thomas. Completely different guy. >> Yeah. >> What the [ __ ] At the time, she claimed
00:38:14
that he was being physically and sexually abusive toward her and that she shot him in self-defense. And four years
00:38:19
later, she was acquitted of murder, and she got probation for carrying an unlicensed firearm.
00:38:24
>> Okay. >> It turned out that James Rooden's death wasn't Bill Rothstein's first
00:38:29
association with killing either. >> Oh my. >> In 1970, Peach Street really does go
00:38:33
crazy. >> I was going to say Peach Street. >> What a unassuming name. >> Yeah, >> they should name it like Killer Street.
00:38:39
>> Rock Street. >> Nutso Street. Yeah. Pop off street. Poop street. Poop street. No TV dinners here
00:38:47
street. So in 1977, Bill played a similar role in the murder of local Eerie newspaper printer William Barry.
00:38:54
In that case, Rothstein provided the gun that was used in the shooting and gave uh Barry's killer, Lewis Allesie, a ride
00:39:02
home from the scene of the murder. >> He's getting himself. >> Yeah, it's sticky.
00:39:07
>> It is sticky situation. >> It is sticky. Two years later, Bill was granted immunity in exchange for his
00:39:13
testimony against Allessie, who was ended up being sentenced to 10 years for thirdderee murder. Lead investigator
00:39:19
Dominic Depalo told reporters, "You would think that someone who was involved in a homicide years ago would
00:39:24
have learned his lesson, but for whatever reason, it looks like this guy didn't."
00:39:27
>> Apparently not. >> That's pretty much what you just said. >> Yeah. >> So, 2 days after Bill was arrested, this
00:39:32
most recent time, police picked up Marjorie Dale Armstrong and charged her with the murder of James Rooden. A quick
00:39:39
check of their records revealed that Marjorie had actually filed a protection from abuse order against James Rooden
00:39:44
about a month earlier and a hearing had been scheduled. So in her defense, she claimed that she had nothing to do with
00:39:51
James Rooden's death and she blamed it on Bill. So now we're pointing fingers at each other.
00:39:55
>> Oh. >> According to her, she said she got home on the afternoon of August 13th and she
00:40:00
found her boyfriend dead. She said, "I never touched the body. I never saw it. Don't even know what it looks like. He
00:40:05
did it all." Whoa. Like you you probably do know what he looks like though because he was your boyfriend.
00:40:11
>> A flip-flop. >> Yeah. So despite her repeated claims of innocence, the evidence and Bill
00:40:17
Rothstein's statement to police obviously implicated Marjgery Deal Armstrong in James Rooden's death. And
00:40:22
by January 2004, she was indicted on charges of homicide, aggravated assault, and abuse of a corpse, among a few other
00:40:28
things. Whoa. So, in the months that followed, the defense and the prosecution argued back and forth over
00:40:34
all the pre-trial motions and all that stuff until the trial date was finally set for mid January 2005. But just days
00:40:41
before the trial, Marjorie Dale Armstrong surprised everybody by accepting a plea deal where she would
00:40:47
plead guilty to thirddegree murder and abuse of a corpse in exchange for a sentence of 7 to 20 years. And in her
00:40:54
confession, she alleged that quote, "Her mental illness had prevented her from understanding that her actions were
00:40:59
wrong." Okay. Yeah. So, like I mentioned a minute ago, James Rooden was unfortunately not the only men who
00:41:07
Marjgerie De Armstrong had killed. In fact, according to journalist Rich Shapiro, De Armstrong was one of Erie's
00:41:13
most notorious figures, well known for her string of dead lovers. Whoa. In addition to James Rooden and Robert
00:41:20
Thomas, who I told you she did kill, she alleges in self-defense, Marjgery's former husband, Richard Armstrong, also
00:41:27
died under suspicious circumstances in 1988. Officially, his cause of death was cerebral hemorrhage and was ruled
00:41:35
accidental, but according to Shapiro, Richard Armstrong had a head injury when he arrived at the hospital, but the case
00:41:41
was never forwarded to the coroner's office. What the [ __ ] was wrong with that hospital? I don't know, man. You
00:41:48
forward that [ __ ] You gotta. >> That's wild. >> Yeah. So, the deaths connected to
00:41:52
Marjorie were not the only things that made her notorious and eerie. As far back as high school, she had a
00:41:58
reputation for being incredibly intelligent. She's was a very smart woman, >> but she was wildly unstable. She did
00:42:05
have a lot of mental health issues. >> Court records indicate that she had been diagnosed with bipolar in the past and
00:42:11
that when she was manic, she would demonstrate very strange behavior. In one incident just before the shooting of
00:42:17
Robert Thomas in 1984, investigators were called to her house for a well-being check. And when they entered
00:42:23
the home, you will never be prepared for this information. I just need you to know.
00:42:28
>> When they entered the home, they, and this is not exaggeration, they found 400
00:42:32
lb of butter and more than 700 lb of cheese in the house, which sounds [ __ ] awesome, except that all of it
00:42:40
was rotting. Sit with that. >> Sit with that. It was [laughter] It was how you said which sounds [ __ ]
00:42:50
I love butter and cheese. I'm a thick girl. Rotting. No thanks. [laughter] 400. Where does one even purchase
00:43:01
400 lb of butter? I do love butter. >> I bought like three boxes of butter the other day to bake and I felt cuckoo.
00:43:07
[laughter] I was like, "Oo, this person's my my Instacart driver is going to be like, damn, bitch." 400 lb.
00:43:14
I don't even know what that looks like. >> I can't conceive. >> Where do you 700 lb of cheese? I can
00:43:20
sort of con conceive of because those big ass cheese wheels. >> Do you [laughter] think that's what they
00:43:26
are? >> I don't know. >> Just wheels of cheese. >> I kind of hope so. >> Or is it?
00:43:31
>> I mean, it's all rotting, so obviously it wasn't all in the refrigerator. >> Obviously that Bill doesn't have room in
00:43:36
his [ __ ] freezer back then. >> No. Doesn't have room for butter and cheese, but has room for a dead body.
00:43:41
>> Holy [ __ ] Yeah, that's I mean that's also like in all seriousness that's also
00:43:47
a very clear indication that something is wildly arai here very much so. >> People don't just have 400 lb of butter
00:43:57
and 700 lb of cheese rotting in their house. >> You know what's crazy is somebody in the
00:44:03
comments will argue with you about that. >> Yes, probably. >> But that's a fact.
00:44:07
>> But I do think that is a very clear indication that something is off. I think so too,
00:44:12
>> personally. >> So, just a few months later, Marjorie was arrested for the shooting death of
00:44:16
Thomas. So, obviously, like she wasn't in a like we laugh about the butter and the cheese, but it in all seriousness,
00:44:23
like you just said, something was going on and there was a clear path. >> Exactly.
00:44:28
>> So, during the investigation of uh Thomas's death, Marjorie was evaluated by a psychiatrist who described her as
00:44:35
paranoid and narcissistic. And in that case, she actually had to be evaluated seven times before she was deemed fit to
00:44:42
aid in her own defense during the trial. Wow. Apparently, she really wanted to. So, throughout the investigation into
00:44:47
James Rooden's death, now we're we're back to where we started a little. >> Detectives hadn't forgotten about Bill
00:44:53
Rothstein's suicide note and the opening claim that Rhoden's murder had quote nothing to do with the Brian Wells case.
00:44:59
>> Yeah. >> They were like, why did he write that? Why would somebody open a suicide note
00:45:04
by declaring emphatically that they had nothing to do with a murder that they were never suspected of committing in
00:45:09
the first place? >> And apparently didn't really know much about anyways according to that
00:45:12
journalist. >> Exactly. >> When they spoke to them, seemed like he didn't really know anything about it.
00:45:17
>> Or was he just a really good actor? >> Yeah. >> So unfortunately by that time, Bill had
00:45:21
passed away from lymphoma. So he wasn't going to be able to provide any insight into the unsolved death of Brian Wells.
00:45:27
But Marjgerie Deal Armstrong was. And as it turned out, she was willing to talk for a price. Well, let's hear it,
00:45:34
Marjorie. [music] So, in the summer of 2005, not long after Marjorie started serving her
00:45:51
sentence for the James Rooden murder, FBI agents were still working the Wells collar bomb case. And we're like, "What
00:45:58
the [ __ ] happened here?" Yeah. >> And they got a call from eerie detectives who were wrapping up loose
00:46:02
ends on the road and murder still. It was during one of their postconviction conversations with Marjorie that she
00:46:08
casually brought up Bill's suicide and his suicide note. According to Marjorie, Bill had lied when he said that James
00:46:16
Rooden's death had nothing to do with Brian Wells. Actually, she said it had everything to do with it. And if they
00:46:22
were willing to arrange for a transfer for her, she would tell them all about it.
00:46:27
>> Oh. Yeah, she wanted to go to a minimum security facility. Excuse me. >> She said, "If you move me over there,
00:46:33
I'll tell you everything." >> So, according to her, Brian Wells, and remember this is according to her who
00:46:39
was convicted of a crime and struggles with mental health. >> Yes. >> According to her, Brian Wells was not a
00:46:46
victim in the collar bombing case. He was also one of the perpetrators. She claimed that the entire plot to rob
00:46:53
the PNC bank of $250,000 had actually been masterminded by Bill Rothstein himself.
00:46:59
>> Himself. I just stuttered or not stuttered, lisped. >> He also, she said, built the cane gun
00:47:05
and the collar bomb. >> When investigators searched Bill's house, they did end up finding several
00:47:11
items that somebody might use in a bomb construction. >> So, that was interesting. But to hear
00:47:16
Marjorie tell it, it was Bill and Brian Wells who were behind the entire scheme.
00:47:21
And all she had done was just give them some kitchen timers to use in the explosive. She was just helping a couple
00:47:27
of pals out. >> I just don't understand. >> Yeah. >> Why that makes sense for Brian.
00:47:32
>> It doesn't. >> Okay. >> So, what Marjorie didn't know at the time of her meeting with the FBI was
00:47:36
that they already suspected her of being involved in that entire plot, the bomb collaller plot. In previous weeks, they
00:47:42
had actually met with multiple informants, including Bill's former roommate, Floyd Stockton, and his
00:47:48
ex-wife, Janet Ponsford, who actually kept detailed notes about their interactions with Marjorie.
00:47:54
>> Oh. So, like Marjorie, Floyd Stockton had also known Bill for decades. And they were all part of this like group of
00:48:01
very like local antisocial, very smart, intellectual people. like it was like kind of a group of outcasts who were
00:48:10
smart, >> like genius level smart >> who >> like hung out every now and again. >> So, by the time Marjorie was convicted,
00:48:17
Floyd Stockton had also just started serving his own prison sentence after he was found guilty of sexually assaulting
00:48:24
a teenager who had developmental disabilities. >> So, he's disgusting. And also keep in mind he was talking
00:48:33
because he was looking for anything that was going to lessen his sentence. >> What a group of [ __ ]
00:48:39
>> Truly. >> Truly. >> And like I hate sitting here and saying that they're this like intellectual
00:48:44
group of people because like obviously not because they're doing the things that they're doing, but they're
00:48:48
intellectual on a different level. Like do you I'm not >> They are able to comprehend complex
00:48:55
concepts. >> Thank you. >> For certain topics. >> Thank you. But they are obviously not
00:49:00
able to understand the difference between being Well, they do. That's the thing. I think they do understand.
00:49:07
They're just bad people. >> Exactly. But I just don't want anybody to think I'm crazy.
00:49:10
>> Bad people, unfortunately, can be both smart. >> Mhm. >> And that's just the way this is.
00:49:15
>> Mhm. So Floyd Stockton wasn't the only member of Marjgery's bizarre social circle who found themselves in trouble
00:49:22
with the law and wanted to exchange information for freedom. They were like a lesser sentence.
00:49:26
>> So they're all just gross. >> Oh, yeah. And there's more. Not long after investigators spoke with Floyd and
00:49:31
Janet, another witness came forward with what would prove to be some of the most
00:49:35
important testimony in this entire case. >> Oh [ __ ] >> It was late in 2005 at this point and
00:49:41
Marjorie was already talking to the FBI when agents got a call about a recently arrested crack dealer named Kenneth
00:49:47
Barnes. It this all just goes crazy. >> I was Is there anything that's not in this case?
00:49:55
[sighs and gasps] >> I don't know. No. No, >> I tried to come up with sensors, but
00:49:59
there was already 400 lb of butter. So, >> yeah, there was there's really nothing
00:50:02
you can point to. >> So, now we're talking about a recently arrested crack dealer named Kenneth
00:50:07
Barnes. >> Okay, >> so like Bill Rothstein and Floyd Stockton, Kenneth Barnes had kind of
00:50:12
talent a talent with mechanics and had worked as a repairman for many years, but hadn't been able to maintain a
00:50:19
steady job. So, he turned to selling drugs to support himself. Apparently, he had spoken too loudly and too often
00:50:25
about the PNC bank robbery. And after he was arrested on drug charges, his brother-in-law reported him to the
00:50:32
police on suspicion of murder. Uh-oh. Now threatened with more jail time for the murder of Brian Wells, Kenneth
00:50:38
Barnes caved and agreed to give the DA a detailed account of the entire plan that
00:50:43
had to do with the pizza bomb collar in exchange for a lighter sentence. >> Damn. Yeah, this is deep.
00:50:49
>> It really is. and it involves so many different players. >> So, the story that Kenneth Barnes told
00:50:54
the FBI about the bomb collaller plot would have been unbelievable, but it kind of corroborated the evidence and
00:51:00
what they already suspected about the case. Obviously, not every piece of it. Like, who knows if every piece of it is
00:51:06
true or is not because there's so many people involved here >> that are talking and looking for
00:51:11
something >> trying to save their own ass like >> Exactly. But that's I just have to tell
00:51:16
you what they said. >> Damn. So, according to Kenneth Barnes, Marjorie had masterminded the entire
00:51:21
bomb plot in in order to get a large sum of money, which she planned to use to pay a hitman to murder her father. So,
00:51:29
when I said the reason at the center of this is just so absolutely unbelievable.
00:51:35
>> Yeah. She set this whole thing up allegedly >> and to hire >> this guy died so that she could hire a
00:51:43
hitman to commit another murder. Yes. >> Whoa. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Because she worried that her dad was
00:51:51
spending his own fortune too fast and that there wasn't going to be anything left for her when he died. So, she ought
00:51:58
to just kill him now. She felt >> I'm speechless. >> I don't know, man. >> So, Barnes, he said he didn't know the
00:52:05
details about that plan. >> Who does? I don't I don't even think she does. >> Yeah, exactly. and he didn't really know
00:52:11
all of the details about the pizza bomb plan, but what he did know was that Marjorie had roped the other man into
00:52:17
the plan basically by just like bullying them until they all agreed to help her.
00:52:22
>> Wow. >> Which I do believe. >> I mean, yeah. >> I woke up in the night to her face many
00:52:26
times and I just believe that she could bully people into doing some crazy [ __ ]
00:52:31
>> Yeah. So, according to Barnes, and again, according to him, Brian Wells had only agreed to wear the bomb collar
00:52:38
because he thought it wasn't real. Oh, yeah. He also alleged that Marjorie had murdered James Rooden because he knew
00:52:46
about the plot and he was going to tell about the robbery. >> Okay. >> So, it's all kind of becoming connected.
00:52:53
The Brian Wells thing still isn't adding up to me though cuz I'm like he they said he seemed genuinely
00:52:59
>> anxious and scared at the end of that like this is going to happen. If he didn't think that was real,
00:53:04
>> why was he freaking out? >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know what I mean? >> I don't know.
00:53:09
>> It's all but I don't know. Again, >> it's all very strange and [clears throat] and that's why I'm
00:53:14
saying like take what they're saying with a grain of salt because we don't know at the end of the day like Brian
00:53:18
Wells isn't here to say and he died a horrific death. >> Yeah. So like I don't want to speculate
00:53:23
>> speculate if he was part of it. >> Yeah. But the next time investigators met with Marjorie in February 2006 now
00:53:30
she had her attorney by her side fully expecting to make a deal with the state cuz she has no idea that now all these
00:53:35
people are coming forward and being like Marjorie did it. >> Yeah. Being like she bullied us for far
00:53:39
too long. >> Yeah. >> Instead of being offered a deal though, she was informed that she was now being
00:53:43
indicted for the murder of Brian Wells and several other crimes associated with the Bombller plot.
00:53:49
>> Oops. According to Rich Shapiro, when Marjorie was first informed of the indictment, she went quote ballistic,
00:53:56
slamming her fist on a conference table and cursing out the agents and her own lawyer.
00:54:00
>> Whoa. But that didn't stop her from continuing to fill in the gaps in Kenneth Barn's account of the robbery.
00:54:06
And she kind of spilled everything. >> Oh. >> For hours, she went over the entire
00:54:10
plan, telling agents where she was on the day and even offering to take them on a tour of the area to point out the
00:54:17
logistics of the plan. So, she like lost it on them and then was like, "Fine, I'll tell you
00:54:23
everything. >> I'll tell you everything details." >> Like, I think she was trying to say like
00:54:27
she wasn't at the she wanted to control the narrative at this point. >> Precisely. Because remember, she's also
00:54:31
a diagnosed narcissist. >> So, on July 11th, 2007, US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan held a press conference to
00:54:38
announce that after four years of intense investigation and more than a thousand interviews at that point, they
00:54:44
had finally broken the case of the caller bomber. In her press conference, uh, Buchanan identified Marjorie Deal
00:54:50
Armstrong as the mastermind of the bomb plot, and the motive, she said, was simple greed.
00:54:56
>> Lead ATF agent Mark Potter told reporters, "The investigation was about greed that created fear and resulted in
00:55:02
death. The brutality and utter lack of respect for life displayed by the indicted is rarely seen outside of a
00:55:08
movie screen." >> Yeah, which is very true. Now, probably most shocking to everybody at the press
00:55:13
conference was that contrary to what they had assumed originally, investigators now believed that Brian
00:55:19
Wells was not just a victim of the bomb plot, but also a participant. They were told that he agreed to wear the bomb
00:55:25
collar and rob the bank with the understanding that the bomb was fake and that the scavenger hunt that had
00:55:31
perplexed the investigators was just a distraction to fool them and make it seem like Brian wasn't involved.
00:55:38
>> Okay. But unfortunately, they said by the time he realized he had been betrayed by his co-conspirators, it was
00:55:43
too late. That's their theory. I'm not saying that's mine. >> But it's like, have they even proved
00:55:48
like a real connection between Brian Wells and these people? >> Sort of. >> It's like I just doesn't feel like there
00:55:55
was a strong enough >> I haven't gotten fully to it. So, >> you know. >> Yeah. Well, later that year, Kenneth
00:56:01
Barnes pleaded guilty to conspiracy and weapons charges related to the robbery and the death of Brian Wells, and he
00:56:07
ended up getting a sentence of 45 years in prison. So, I was like, you really thought you were going to get a lighter
00:56:11
lighter sentence? But really, here we are. >> He did agree to testify against Marjorie, though, in exchange for a
00:56:17
lighter sentence. But before Marjorie could go to trial, her lawyer filed a motion for a hearing to determine her
00:56:23
competency, arguing that she was unfit to assist in her own defense, which I was like, "Girl, we've been through this
00:56:29
before. or why are you still trying to >> to assist in your >> just don't do it.
00:56:33
>> I honestly think it was to delay the trial. >> Yeah. >> In late 20 >> she's a diagnosed narcissist so she she
00:56:38
can do it >> precisely. So in late 2008 now she was transferred to a federal medical center
00:56:44
in Carwell Texas where she underwent a 4-month period of observation and evaluation. In her initial evaluation,
00:56:52
doctors at the medical center indicated that she was quote not cooperative with questioning, engaged in perpetual
00:56:58
talking, complained, and was grandiose and paranoid. Delightful. Yeah. In the months that followed, her behavior and
00:57:04
her symptoms did not seem to get any better. She was frequently described as manic and oppositional. She refused to
00:57:10
take her medication. She repeatedly insisted that she was not mentally ill. And other inmates also found themselves
00:57:16
in conflict with her all the time. And she was repeatedly reported to the hospital staff for being a quote bully,
00:57:21
hostile, and mean person. >> I buy that. >> I mean, it literally fits with exactly
00:57:26
what everyone else was saying that she basically bullied them into this. >> And also, the entire motivation for this
00:57:32
was that she wanted to hire a hitman to kill her father >> because he was spending his money.
00:57:36
>> So, I do believe she's probably a mean person. >> She's probably pretty unreasonable.
00:57:40
>> Props. So by the end of her observation period at the end of four months, uh Marjorie had become somewhat more
00:57:47
compliant, but that I mean that's not really saying much. But in her final evaluation, she was diagnosed again with
00:57:53
bipolar disorder and personality disorder with borderline paranoid and narcissistic traits. One psychiatrist
00:58:00
wrote, "A review of Miss Armstrong's records indicate pervasive and long-standing characterological deficits
00:58:06
in her ability to relate and function in social and personal contexts." >> Damn. Yeah. So, it's a lot. That's a
00:58:14
lot. Yeah. She definitely struggles with her mental health in a big way. But based on the reports from the doctor at
00:58:19
the medical center, a federal judge in Pennsylvania concluded that she was definitely not mentally fit to stand
00:58:25
trial, which >> sounds like it. >> Yeah, that's the thing. Like, I kind of agree with that.
00:58:29
>> Agreed. >> So, in the two years that followed, she was evaluated multiple times until she
00:58:34
was finally deemed mentally sound to be able to stand stand trial. [snorts] But by that time, she had been diagnosed
00:58:40
with glandular cancer, and a doctor estimated that she only had between 3 and seven years to live.
00:58:46
>> Wa. >> So despite that grim prognosis, the prosecutor decided to move forward with
00:58:50
the trial, and the date was set for October 12th, 2010. >> Yeah. I mean, people don't give a [ __ ]
00:58:55
>> Yeah. People died. >> Yeah. You still need to be prosecuted. >> So, the trial was obviously as
00:59:01
sensational and dramatic as you would expect from a story that begins with a bomb caller and a bank robbery. Some of
00:59:07
the most damning testimony presented at the trial came from seven witnesses who testified that Marjgery had revealed
00:59:13
various facts about the plot both before and after Brian Wells death to them. The
00:59:19
prosecution star witness was Kenneth Barnes and he told the entire story offering answers to the question that
00:59:26
still remained unanswered. Was Brian Wells truly a participant here? But again, we're relying on him who's
00:59:33
looking for a lesser sentence. >> Yeah. So, according to Barnes, all of Marjgery's co-conspirators have been
00:59:38
roped into the plot with the promise of money. But unlike the others, Brian Wells was not motivated by greed. In the
00:59:45
months leading up to the robbery, Kenneth said that Wells was in a relationship with a sex worker who he
00:59:50
supplied with crack in exchange for sex. However, just a few weeks before the robbery, Kenneth said that Wells found
00:59:58
himself in debt to a crack dealer and was desperately in need of money. And it was only because of that debt that he
01:00:05
agreed to participate. >> Okay, that brings a little more like >> a little more connection.
01:00:12
>> A little more. And and you can sit there and be like, "Okay, that sounds more
01:00:14
like just from his characterization that like he wouldn't just be like, "Yeah, I
01:00:19
just want a [ __ ] ton of money for no reason." You know, like that desperation seems like the only way I would even
01:00:26
slightly buy that he was a willing participant. >> Yeah. But even still, >> and even at that point, was he a willing
01:00:31
participant? Does desperation count as a as being a willing participant? >> Well, great question.
01:00:38
>> As for his ultimate victimization, Kenneth Barnes explained that on the day of the robbery, Brian Wells realized the
01:00:45
bomb was real and he tried to back out of the plan and ran from the house, but he was chased down by Bill Rothstein and
01:00:52
the bomb collar was locked on his neck at gunpoint. >> Yes. So, that's not a will. was a
01:00:57
full-blown victim at all of this, which >> if that's even the case, >> if that's the case, that's [ __ ]
01:01:03
horrific. >> Yeah. >> So, throughout most of the testimony, Marjorie could be seen whispering to her
01:01:09
lawyer. She frequently interrupted the testimony, just shouting liar at anybody who said anything unflattering about
01:01:14
her. But when it was time for her to take the stand in her own defense, she was equally combative. Rich Shapiro
01:01:20
wrote, "For 5 and 1/2 hours over two days, she used the witness stand as her stage. She ridiculed her own lawyer. She
01:01:27
belittled the prosecutor. She cried. She yelled. E. >> During the testimony, the judge actually
01:01:33
reprimanded her more than 50 times with like no effect. >> Like, why are we still allowing her to
01:01:40
speak? >> Yeah. But in the end, she did herself no favors by taking Exactly. The jury
01:01:46
deliberated for 11 hours before emerging to find her guilty of armed bank robbery, conspiracy, and using a
01:01:53
destructive device in a crime of violence. And finally, in late February 2011, she was sentenced to life in
01:01:59
prison for the death of Brian Wells. And she got an additional 30 years for the bank robbery. When she was asked for a
01:02:06
statement, she told reporters, "My heart goes out to the family. The true killers
01:02:11
are still out there." >> Oh, [ __ ] you. >> You piece of [ __ ] [ __ ] you. >> [ __ ] off. So Marjorie and her defense
01:02:16
team obviously appealed her sentence to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, arguing that she wasn't competent to
01:02:21
stand trial in the first place, but the court ended up siding with the lower court, which just affirmed her sentence.
01:02:26
>> Yeah. >> Ultimately, she really didn't end up spending most of her life in prison or
01:02:30
much of her life in prison. On April 4th, 2017, at the age of 68, she died of breast cancer at the Federal Medical
01:02:37
Center in Carwell, Texas. And in an odd conclusion to an already very bizarre case, which we've went through almost
01:02:45
every detail of today, right after she died, a New York man named Mark Marvin came forward saying he was her common
01:02:53
law husband and argued in a federal court that she was not dead. Humans aren't okay. We're not all right.
01:03:03
>> And he said, "She's not dead, but if she is, then I want her remains released to
01:03:09
me. because I am her common law husband who came out of absolutely nowhere. >> His
01:03:14
request was denied. >> It was I can't I can't imagine why. >> I just like the she's not dead but give
01:03:22
me your body. >> Yeah. Which is it? >> Okie do. >> You got to pick a lane, babe.
01:03:26
>> All righty. >> You got to pick a lane. >> If anybody has watched the Real Housewives of Chicago, it's or not Real
01:03:31
Housewives, Mob Wives Chicago, it's giving that. >> Okay. So, after testifying against
01:03:36
Marjgery, Kenneth Barn's sentence was cut in half and he's currently serving his sentence at the Federal Medical
01:03:41
Center in Butner, North Carolina. That's hilarious to me. >> And is scheduled to be released in
01:03:47
September of 2027. >> Oh, okay, Kenneth. >> So, good luck to >> Good luck to that.
01:03:53
>> Wow. The most complex, interwoven, full of cheese and butter story I've ever heard. And at the end of the day, I
01:04:04
believe that no matter what the real story is, because I don't think we ever got the real story of Brian Well's
01:04:09
involvement, he's a victim. >> Tragic, >> tragic, tragic. It may It breaks my [ __ ] heart. No matter what happened
01:04:16
there. >> Horrible way to go. >> Yeah, cuz I just Nothing about that feels like a willing participant. No
01:04:22
matter what the situation was, it sounds horrific in that. Oh, I And I hate that
01:04:27
like that poor guy's last moments are on film. Yeah. and him begging them to take
01:04:33
that thing off of him. >> It never should have been filmed and it never upsetting. And I remember when
01:04:38
this documentary came out, the Evil Genius one on Netflix, >> that preview, >> that preview, I was like, I don't know.
01:04:44
>> I never watched >> I never watched the documentary, but I remember being so like what the [ __ ] is
01:04:49
this about cuz I was like, there's this guy with a bomb on him. Then they show this woman on the thing, which there's
01:04:55
like two different pictures of her. Yeah. >> But now it looks like it was like one of
01:04:58
her younger and one of her Yep. like more recent. >> Yep. >> And I remember being like, I don't know
01:05:03
what this is about. I meant to watch it, but I just never did. >> I just couldn't bring myself to watch it
01:05:08
because I knew I I had already seen that clip, I think, on like one of those like
01:05:13
countdown shows or something like that. And I was like, I just can't watch it again.
01:05:17
>> Yeah. Yeah, >> but what a [ __ ] gnarly. >> That's a wild story. It is. And it just
01:05:23
involves so many people. And how do those kind of people find each other? >> That's the thing. Nothing good came out
01:05:30
of that. >> Oh, let me get a quick fun fact, though. >> Okay, guys. I found a fun fact about
01:05:34
peeing because Alina just had to take a potty break. >> Oh my god. I just drank an entire thing
01:05:39
of water during this. Like every time. >> A whole broomade of water. And I thought
01:05:43
I was dying. I was like, I have to pee [laughter] so bad. >> Nothing like the feeling though of when
01:05:47
you do that. Oh, I feel a new Well, here's the fun fact. It's kind of ridiculous, but it's wild that I found
01:05:53
that as you were leaving to go to the bathroom. The male giraffe will continuously headbutt the female in the
01:05:58
bladder until she urinates. The male then taste the urine to determine if the female is ovulating, and if so, the
01:06:04
merrynt begins. I don't know what I [laughter] expected, but it wasn't. >> That's not it.
01:06:12
>> That's what I got from randomfact generator.com. I mean, I guess they don't have like aura rings or like Apple
01:06:17
watches to tell you when you're ovulating. So, they're like, "Got to do it the old fashion." [laughter]
01:06:21
>> Is that the oldfashioned way? He tastes her piss to see if she's ovulating. >> First of all, he bullies her into
01:06:27
peeing. >> Yeah, that's rude. >> Which at first when it was like poking her until she pees, I'm like, "Well,
01:06:31
maybe she's like me and she just like doesn't pee." So, he's just trying to be like, "You don't want to get a kidney
01:06:36
infection, babe." >> He says, "I want to have calves with you, so >> I'mma poke you till you pee and I can
01:06:41
taste [laughter] your pee and see if I can impregnate you." I have never damn heard those words strung together.
01:06:48
>> And here we are just like peeing on sticks or checking our aura rings to see if we're ovulating.
01:06:53
>> Holy different life led. >> What a fun fact to end on. Thank you for that. >> Well, we hope you keep listening.
01:06:59
>> Yeah, we do. We hope [laughter] we hope you keep it. But it's so weird that you poke your
01:07:05
wife and then taste her pest to see if she's ovulating. [laughter] You're not a giraffe.
01:07:11
But I mean like you're an adult. Do what you want to do. >> [laughter] >> with consent.
01:07:16
Kinky [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]