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hey Prime members you can listen to morbid early and add free on Amazon music download the app today
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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid this is morbid [Music] [Music]
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foreign [Music] [Laughter] yeah this is morbid and it's gonna be morbid because we're talking about a
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very big um older because it's me but it's like the 50s so don't worry it's not that old
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uh an old or True Crime case but one that a lot of people know about crazy because the 50 is like is old now it's
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like super old but not like you know when I say old usually it's like 1800 1901 1877.
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14.92. you know sail in the ocean blue all of that or were you but yeah we're here
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um I just saw that you guys have gotten the episode where we were talking about Sinister Pond babe
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um it's giving dark side in cause I just saw that people were commenting being like I came here from Mormon and I
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cannot be [ __ ] happier yes I cannot be [ __ ] happier go Sinister babe is our girly girl
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part of the bag cult but it's it I I needed a laugh last night like last yesterday was like just a rough day all
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around and I ended the day being like wow today sucked and I was like shitty feeling and I was just sitting there
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next to John or put on something on TV and I just like happened to scroll and the first thing that popped up on my
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Tick Tock dark sided was was my favorite talking about some random town in Alabama talking about whether it was a
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Sinister Pond or a bougie Pond that she was looking at she decided it was a bougie pond because there was horses
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next time equestrians it is a bougie but you could ask John I was literally laughing out
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loud and I was like I want her to Forever have everything she wants because she had that's a service that I
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needed last night and she provided it I love the different ways in which we cope
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because we we both have like a [ __ ] day yesterday um and I just did Mania at Target
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you just did mean I just I was a Mania girl at Target I love that yeah I love that for you I got some workout leggings
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got a notebook I'll probably never use a lot of pens we love that new cup what are you gonna do all the Necessities
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yeah just like things that Target said you know this I just spent the night with Sinister Palm Vibe and also
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thinking about playing The Sims but not actually doing it I'm gonna need for you
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to play The Sims because I feel like this has been going on for years oh no it definitely has oh I really want to
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play The Sims Ash but it's one of those Alina you should play The Sims but it's one of those things that I'm like yeah I
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really want to play The Sims then I'm like when though yeah that's fair that's the thing like you're over there shocked
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that I haven't sat and built myself a town well you know it'll take a few minutes off of tick tock and just piece
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by piece build your town I know I think that is what I'm gonna end up doing just
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give yourself again I say to you self-care maybe for you you your self-care is the Sims it
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doesn't have to look like everybody else is oh yeah it's not a maybe it's for sure that's called something a scopism
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but I keep getting you know what I'm getting tick tocks like Tick Tock is even telling me stop doing this and go
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play The Sims because I'm getting all these Sims tick tocks that's because it listens to us yeah I like to I I know
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that's totally the reason but it feels like a sign I'm like it's a sign guys for me how does he even know it's the
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universe it's kind of like I was talking about like these specific very very specific shoes yesterday and that I was
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on Instagram and they were like hey you there do you like these shoes we feel like you would like these shoes I was
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like oh do you yeah cool who are you fooling so you know what go play The Sims if you feel like it
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everybody and go to touch uh Sinister Palm bed yeah so bye today we are going to talk about the Clutter family murders
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now I know I that I've heard of this case but I don't know if I know exactly what this is so you may a lot of people
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may not know it as the Clutter family murders oh okay they may know it as the In Cold Blood murder case
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Truman Capote oh she's she's confused you don't know who Truman Capote is am I going to be in Cold Blood
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I gotta move on from that okay can you wait wait what Truman Capote is an author okay A a very well-known author
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who wrote In Cold Blood about this case okay it's slightly controversial we're gonna talk about it at the end I'd like
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to point out that this is your fault as my mother in True Crimes yeah it's one of the things it's a very big True Crime
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book because it is known as the first non-fiction novel oh where there was some creative license
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taken but it's an actual case yeah it's an interesting situation okay uh Philip Seymour Hoffman played Capote in like a
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movie called Capote I think I know Philip Seymour Hoffman there you go he played him okay uh so there's that
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oh man that's Wilds so I said I do no no I mean like the Truman Capote no I do I was like I know one of them I
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was like I know you know philipsy more often I will I will not take that from him
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please you know him who is he he's in the [ __ ] uh Hunger Games he was great in The Hunger Games yeah
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all right P Phillips Seymour I know sad it's a sad one but you know what let's get into another very sad tragic case
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okay we're going to talk about the Clutter family murders uh first let's talk about so the Clutter family they
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lived in Kansas and Holcomb Kansas this is a really terrible crime a very senseless crime as most are but this one
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is just like what the [ __ ] and especially because they went in there thinking they were gonna get a lot out
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and they didn't get a lot out and they ended up no I mean the murders ah and they ended up killing an entire family
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in the process tell me it solved yes it is so I'll thank the good Lord this one is solved we know who did it but there's
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all kinds of weird little things with the killers too and we'll get into it um their their names are Richard Hickok
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and Perry Smith okay and Perry Smith is like an interesting one because like a lot of
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sympathy went to him at one point because he showed weird signs of having empathy but like I don't believe he did
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clearly didn't because and he had like involved in the murder of an entire family and he had a very rough childhood
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it was one of those things where it was like I feel bad for exactly so bad for the child so let's talk about the
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patriarch of the Clutter family before we get into the horrific way in which they all died so Herbert clutter was the
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patriarch of this family he was born in 1911 he held degrees from Kansas State University in economics and agriculture
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his life was farming he worked and the whole like process of farming the whole business behind farming he worked as an
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agricultural agent for Findlay County which meant he traveled around educating Farmers on advances in farming
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technology and stuff like that eventually he started his own Farm in Holcomb in Kansas in the 1940s and he
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called it River Valley Farm he was known as an extremely kind very hard-working and very loving man he was
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very active in his community everyone knew him as a family man they knew his family they were very well known in
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their Community he was a he was very personable he was always chatty when people came upon him he seems like
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someone everyone would have immediately been drawn to he just has that Vibe about him and if you look at a picture
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of him you're like yeah like he's a very kind face oh he was literally referred to several times in several different
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sources that I saw as salt of the earth oh yeah that's awful as if we don't already love Herbert clutter he was
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successful and also showed up for the little guy even in post-war United States when farming was really going
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through a transformation with like new technology and automated you know Farm labor happening clutter's Farm was
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thriving and he used his own knowledge his own experience to run it but he also fiercely advocated for smaller farms and
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local farms he was even president of the National Association of Wheat Growers and he was the founder and president of
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Kansas Association of Wheat Growers he just looks like a kind man he has those eyes and he has that smile that smile
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and I'm not kidding you you cannot find something that says he was a dick that might have been like business owners who
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were like yeah we had some like business things like of course that we would get
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like kind of heated but like that was a human outside of business and as a human
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and his family in his community he was beloved this whole family was I was gonna say this whole family looks like
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just the guys next door the family next door it's the picture of a 50s like you know era family like they just look like
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the picture-perfect family no it's so true in 1953 actually President Eisenhower appointed clutter to the
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federal Farm Credit board and he was a like he was a [ __ ] gem like he was on a Nash National level now doing this
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kind of stuff he was very active in politics local and National and really had to do with like
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the farming industry but he was very active in it now in a little bit of contrast to Herb who was like very
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outgoing very like all over the place a people person his wife was Bonnie clutter and she was very introverted she
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did suffer a lot from severe bouts of depression and anxiety she went through it like truly crippling depression at
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times in the years before she was murdered she had been hospitalized several times for several months she had
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been receiving care in Wichita and her doctor said she was also suffering from nervous muscle spasms oh man which were
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painful like physically and had to be medicated with medicine that would kind of a sedate Bonnie so she was like out
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of it a lot like upstairs sleeping yeah but she tried she tried to fight through
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this and she was she was making a get a valiant effort and she was like making Headway and she was really when she had
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better moments like that you know they were few and far between at this point she was really fighting through it right
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but she would make an effort to be active with her children whenever she could she was an active member of the
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Methodist Church and she taught Sunday school there as well as being a member of the women's Society of Christian
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service so she like and I think she was part of like the Garden Club too like she was really
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trying to get out there trying to fight through this she was making it all and she was still there for her family and
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by all accounts or herb stuck by her and like would do anything for her and she really fought but luckily even though
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all this behind the scenes stuff was happening that people probably didn't see that much yeah it did not affect
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their children in the slightest it doesn't seem like it when you see a picture they all have like beaming
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smiles yeah they had four children uh they had two older daughters named Beverly and eviana they were adults they
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had moved out of the house when this had happened I'd be honest really cool isn't
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it pretty yeah um and then they also had a daughter named Nancy who was 16 at the
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time of the murders in Kenyon who was a son and he was 15 years old okay Kenyan is a cool name too I mean also yeah
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um they were all the picture of All American teenagers characteristic of that era Kenyan looks a lot like um like
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his father he does yeah um both Nancy and Kenyon were active in the Methodist you fellowship and were
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nominated in leadership roles in the organization as well so they were they were taking right after their dad yeah
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being active in the community being beloved taking apart in things Nancy clutter like I said was 16 years old and
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she really is the picture of the 1950s she truly when you look at a picture of her Pleasant bill it is it looks like
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Reese Witherspoon in Pleasantville you know dark hair yeah exactly she was popular she was pretty she was a
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straight A student she had a boyfriend named Bobby Rupp so Nancy had a boyfriend named Bobby like it just like
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this it's just like how cute can you be they were going to The Lover's level oh they were going to dances and sock hops
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you know poodle skirts and she loved to ride horses she was a member of Holcomb schools mixed chorus and also had just
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received right before the murders The Good Citizen Award at school wow days before Oh and that was like a big deal
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Kenyan her uh her younger brother was 15 years old he was also very popular very
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well liked but he was very quiet again very pleasant he was like very much and he was very quiet like reserved but like
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not off-putting he also got great grades he loved to Tinker with things he liked
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to get his hands into things he was especially interested in fixing up his old Jeep oh he was also an athlete he
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was like a jock um he was very athletic and was the star of the high school's basketball and
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track teams damn doing it all unsurprisingly he was also a member of the Finley County 4-H club
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so it all just the doing the damn thing they're all killing it yeah they were a tight family who supported and loved
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each other and they did good for their Community together this is all of them were heartbreaking I mean it's
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heartbreaking no matter what but when you just hear what good people oh you were through and through yeah and it's
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like and I I found a lot that was said about like Bonnie and what she was going through and like people would be like oh
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yeah she just spent all her time like sleeping upstairs and like a boyfriend and it's like but then when you really
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dive into it you see one every family has [ __ ] going on of course behind the scenes nobody is perfect no they may
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look perfect but no family is perfect absolutely and two when you really look into it yeah she was struggling with
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depression and anxiety and she was struggling with physical ailments like those nervous muscle spasms she was like
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in real pain well that's the thing that people don't realize is that depression often leads to like physical symptoms
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chronic fatigue and physical symptoms like it's it's a real thing yeah and that's the thing and it's like and when
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you really hear like you start digging a little further and you see people in the
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town talking and people who knew this family and like her family and all that you know like our actual family that was
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surviving outside of this nuclear family they like they all say she was like the
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sweetest woman of course she was there for her kids she loved her kids and she was fighting through what she was
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fighting through and it's like yeah it sounds like the shitty thing too is that this was in what year what this was in
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the 50s yeah that's what you're saying the 50s so it's it wasn't understood back then expression mental health
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struggles yeah it was like she's just being lazy yeah exactly no that's not it right yeah so I just wanted to put that
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out there because I saw so many things that were just like herb was this amazing guy which he is but then it was
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just like and Bonnie was just sleeping up in bed being a lazy [ __ ] and it's like that's not what that was and it's
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also like if herb is this amazing guy clearly he's gonna be drawn to an amazing woman drawn to an amazing gal
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you know but unfortunately this would all come to an end in March of 1958 28 year old Richard Dick Hickok which we're
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going to call him dick um it was in Kansas State penitentiary in Lansing serving a five-year sentence
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just you know for being an [ __ ] um he was actually in there for robbery but it was scary enough to be an [ __ ]
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it was during this time period that his cellmate Floyd Wells started telling him
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about a large sum of money that was just waiting to be stolen out of a farmer's Home in Holcomb Wells said he had worked
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at River Valley Farm in the late 40s and he knew that herb clutter kept ten thousand dollars in cash in a safe in
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the home yeah did he no no he did not dick was very interested in this and immediately started thinking about a
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plan to get it when he was sprung free oh good now Dick had an unremarkable life essentially he himself was born and
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raised on a farm in eastern Kansas and he was born on a farm he knows Farmers lives he's part of the farmers like the
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community he's part of all that and he's still gonna go and betray a fellow farmer but
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dick was smart and athletic and well-liked growing up um he had been hoping to receive a
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scholarship to college through his athletic ability but he didn't get it and so instead of college he went
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straight to doing work like you know just odd jobs around the area because he couldn't really get a degree so he was
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having trouble he ended up being married and divorced twice already by the age of
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28. damn and was truly one of those people who just won't put in the work oh that's good to do it that's a key theme
00:17:51
in the story I'm going to tell you awesome yeah that's it's just I want the end prize but I want it for free yeah it
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doesn't work yeah he would do anything to avoid working often it ended up Landing him in jail uh he had also been
00:18:05
in a car accident at one point and he had scars on his face he was a he was like um known as like a pretty good
00:18:11
looking guy growing up and he ended up having a few scars on his face from the accident and everybody said that he was
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very angry about that because it ruined his face You're So Vain yeah so enough other criminal entered enter entered the
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jail cell with Dick and Floyd wells around this time too and his name was Perry Smith so Smith grew up very poor
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in a family where violence and alcoholism were a constant threat over him and his siblings from his parents
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okay in 1948 he joined the army and served in the Korean War unfortunately he had not gone to smoke school and had
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not maintained any skills to Aid in a job search so when he was honorably discharged in 1952 he was immediately
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struggling now he became a Drifter he was often arrested for petty crimes like dick the difference between the two
00:19:01
though and their pension for criminal Behavior was that dick did crimes because he was a lazy [ __ ] who liked
00:19:08
to cause problems right he just did it because he could and because he wanted to Smith did crimes because he was an
00:19:14
[ __ ] but also because he was often desperate in situations some of his crimes were
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out of pure desperation and a product of his environment exactly I'm not saying any of this is validating it no it's
00:19:27
just a different motive for the crimes they are both [ __ ] they both did crime because they were [ __ ] but one
00:19:32
of them had a little bit more of a desperation mode at times and the other one was just lazy I think it is
00:19:37
important to note that it's just important to know foreign [Music] Jill Evans has it all a big house fast
00:19:52
car and a great career as a decorated police sergeant in Wales but when it comes to love she can just never seem to
00:19:59
get things right and after multiple failed engagements Jill is starting to think it's just never going to happen
00:20:05
for her that is until she connects online with a Charming handsome and successful man named Dean Jenkins from
00:20:14
the outside there may be some red flags but Jill doesn't care he's the one in just six months in Jill finds out she's
00:20:21
pregnant and they make plans to spend the rest of their lives together but the night after Halloween Jill receives a
00:20:28
shocking text that will change everything and what she reads threatens to take away her dreams of Happiness her
00:20:35
career and maybe even her freedom wondering novels new podcasts stolen Hearts tells the intricate love story of
00:20:43
Jill and Dean and how opposites really do attract follow stolen hearts on Amazon music or wherever you get your
00:20:50
podcasts hey Prime members you can binge the entire series ad free on Amazon music download the Amazon music app
00:20:58
today decades before Anna delvey began scamming her way into High Society Christian Carl gerhart's writer was
00:21:05
infiltrating America's most elite circles with little more than a fake name and a lot of charm bold ruthless
00:21:11
and willing to kill gerhart's writer embarked on a keeper across the West Coast successfully evading the FBI for
00:21:17
decades hi I'm Sachi Cole co-host of Wondries podcast scam flinters where we unpack the lives and schemes of some of
00:21:24
the biggest scammers and con artists in our recent two-part series three weddings and a funeral High society's
00:21:30
top Social Circles become a playground for a fraudster follow scan influencers wherever you get your podcasts you can
00:21:37
listen ad free on the Amazon music or wundery app [Music] so it was in 1956 that Smith Perry Smith
00:21:49
was in that jail cell at the State penitentiary in Lansing and that's when he met dick now according to Floyd Wells
00:21:56
dick couldn't stop talking about that safe full of ten thousand dollars at the Clutter farm he was obsessed according
00:22:03
to Wells he said quote as soon as I get out on parole I'm going to find me some Transportation get a hold of Smith and
00:22:10
go to the clutters and see if there's still ten thousand dollars and they're damn safe
00:22:14
and he often boasted about the lengths that he would go to to get it saying he would kill everyone in that house with
00:22:20
no thought just to get the money where are the authorities like this is the reason why we need more air more ears
00:22:28
excuse me in prison yeah like we need this to we need to know about this before it's able to happen exactly like
00:22:35
they're planning what ended up happening literally like at all in prison playing
00:22:39
out while there are police officers and security guards and la de da do all around one unfortunately Wells never
00:22:46
felt like he needed to tell anyone about this because he said he saw dick as a blowhard he was all talk and no walk and
00:22:53
he never thought he was serious about any of his outbursts he was like he was a petty criminal he was a piece of [ __ ]
00:22:59
he was always bragging he was always saying I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do that he's like I didn't think five years
00:23:04
later no of course he was gonna go and really do this thing he's like I thought he was just talking [ __ ] to me in a jail
00:23:10
cell but like rule of thumb if somebody tells you they're gonna commit murder on
00:23:13
an entire family you might want want to tell like at least one person well that's the thing it's like and there's
00:23:17
also the snitch thing he doesn't want to be nice of course but for him saying like I didn't think you'd walk the walk
00:23:23
he's just talking it you know and that's like he is in jail with you though so apparently he does walk some kind of
00:23:30
walk he does walk at times after he talks exactly but unfortunately Wells underestimated dick and he was indeed
00:23:38
obsessed with this score at the Clutter farm he was ready to make real progress on making it happen and he knew that
00:23:44
Perry Smith was the guy to help him make it happen according to Sally geglovitz keglovitz excuse me who looked back into
00:23:52
these crimes and analyzed them in a publication entitled Cold Blood Revisited a look back at An American
00:23:57
Crime she says dick saw something in Smith that he himself didn't have but wanted
00:24:04
she said dick saw quote and he saw in Perry a talent that He knows he didn't possess those of a Natural Born Killer
00:24:12
Jesus so he's saying Smith Perry Smith is has killer blood like he just to to her this is what people saw in him is he
00:24:22
could do it like he could do it and probably not flinch but Dick's gonna be flapping a little bit of a hesitation
00:24:28
here interesting yeah and the thing is Perry also sees something in dick that he doesn't have it himself but would
00:24:35
like to too he sees confidence in dick he thinks dick has the ability to make a move without second guessing it or
00:24:42
hesitating but not make it that move you know what I mean like he may he can make
00:24:47
that move to get us to the farm to get this whole plan going but when it comes down to it it's gonna have to be Perry
00:24:53
Smith who's gonna make that like final the real bad move it's like he sees dick as the one who can really put things
00:25:00
together and has the confidence to be like this is going to work right like jump start the car but then she's gotta
00:25:05
drive but he's got to hit the gas and Perry also weirdly seemed to seek out Dick's approval or validation I feel
00:25:13
like in twos there's always one person who's seeking the others yeah and it makes sense that Perry Smith would be
00:25:20
that one because he grew up seeking validation he's not getting it so he's looking for approval out of somebody
00:25:26
relatable yeah not in this way though I was gonna say not completely but but we get it but yeah yeah so as they obsess
00:25:33
over this Smith's Pearl comes up and he's let out on July 6 1959. no thank you he is required to leave Kansas as a
00:25:42
condition of his parole to him and he does but he stays close by doing odd jobs and waiting for dick to be let out
00:25:49
too he's just like hanging out on the borders game now dick is let out on parole in mid-august of the same year so
00:25:55
he was let out a little early and moved back he moved back in with his parents for a few months
00:26:00
they spoke through letters about the big score that they were destined to steal Smith however was a little worried about
00:26:07
violating parole by returning back to Kansas okay apparently the whole robbery and eventual murder wasn't the issue
00:26:14
just location yeah it's all about location yeah exactly but with a little pushing he agrees and they agreed to me
00:26:22
they agree to meet in Olathe in early November I think it's Olathe I feel like I should look that up I'll pause I'm
00:26:28
gonna look it up guys because I don't want to be yelled at guys it's Olathe I'm really glad I
00:26:34
looked that up she fancy Olathe because I never would have said it that way I'm so glad I looked I looked it up look
00:26:41
at you so nobody has to yell at me I got it right Olathe so they agreed to meet in Olathe in early November so November
00:26:49
14th 1959 Perry Smith and Dick Hickok meet in Olathe as planned they steal a car together and they drove 400 miles to
00:27:00
Garden City in a stolen car yes wow which is just outside of Holcomb Texas Texas Kansas I was like they drove to
00:27:08
Texas no I'm on a different planet photography and I was like is Kansas close to Texas like what's happening I
00:27:14
was like I didn't think it was close I'm confused so they stopped on the way to purchase nylon rope two inch adhesive
00:27:22
tape a small pocket knife and some rubber gloves yep and arrived in Garden City just after midnight there they
00:27:30
stopped at a Phillips 66 to get gas and then they drove the mile or so so to Holcomb when they arrived they drove to
00:27:37
the long dirt road that leads to a River Valley View Farm do they just stopped there at the end
00:27:43
and they were psyching themselves up like we got to do this but then dick [ __ ] his pants when a light came on at a
00:27:50
home nearby and he was like ah we can't do this so he insisted they run back to the car and they did but after a bit
00:27:57
they got the nerve up again and they went to the house so they had a moment where they said we shouldn't do this and
00:28:04
they still did this yeah that tells you everything you need to know and they parked it was wrong exactly they parked
00:28:10
their car near a side entrance to the home office and this is where they mistakenly believe that ten thousand
00:28:16
dollars would be in a safe in there there were plenty of times during this entire thing where they could have
00:28:22
stopped yeah they could have stopped about a hundred times and they didn't so just putting putting that out there now
00:28:29
Smith and dick just walk right into the Clutter home it was unlocked and they have flashlights and weapons
00:28:36
dick has a large hunting knife and Smith has a shotgun so already we can see this
00:28:41
is not just a robbery they are very prepared to do a lot more than Rob these people absolutely and for them to claim
00:28:48
anything different is [ __ ] in my opinion yeah why would you need a gun and a knife a gun and knife why did you
00:28:53
buy nylon rope adhesive tape why'd you buy any of that show ridiculous they searched the small home office and they
00:28:59
find no it's safe where Wells had said it would be behind the desk uh it's nowhere to be found and also Wells
00:29:05
described this luxurious office with like clear evidence that these people were flush with cash and instead
00:29:14
this office is pretty small and modest nothing like he described is he thinking of like a different family entirely or
00:29:20
do you think he was just telling Tales I think he was just stupid to be honest I
00:29:24
think he was stupid he was telling Tales I think he exaggerated and I think he also forgot
00:29:30
all right but they are pissed when they see that there is no safe especially dick who is not going to leave without
00:29:37
money he's been banking on this for years exactly it's all he had thought about for years so they walk right into
00:29:44
herb and Bonnie's bedroom and wake him up with a flash beam flashlight beam to his eyes oh my God he awakens and is
00:29:51
obviously startled now I think what happened was Bonnie might have been in another bedroom at this night because
00:29:57
sometimes she would have to sleep in a separate bed because of the pain she was going through okay it would keep her
00:30:02
awake and she didn't want to keep her awake oh so sometimes she would go sleep in a different bed yeah this happened to
00:30:07
be one of those nights I believe some sources say they she was in the other room some say she wasn't I saw more that
00:30:14
said she was outside of the room okay and so herb is awakened by a flashlight in his eyes he's obviously startled and
00:30:21
when they declare why they're in his home he tells them there is no safe and he's like there's no valuables or cash
00:30:27
in my home whoever told you that is mistaken oh God he and also he almost always paid for everything with a check
00:30:33
and everyone in town knew that like you could ask anybody in this town and they would have told you he uses a check he
00:30:39
doesn't use cash so he tells the murders this and the murderer is this and he's like I'll
00:30:45
happily write you a check and I'll give you whatever cash we may be able to find
00:30:49
in this house in somebody's wallet or something like you can have all of that right and again don't have ten thousand
00:30:54
dollars for you and he's like but I'll write you a check for as much as I can and you can take it out of here and he
00:30:59
said just please leave the rest of my family alone oh my God the fact that that that could have happened yeah like
00:31:05
he was willing to just be like like look away give him a check get on your way you have a flashlight beam in my eyes I
00:31:11
can't see you anyways that alone tells you that they were not just here for the money because they were here for the
00:31:16
thrill of it yeah they could have just taken it but instead they wake up every member of the Clutter family and lock
00:31:23
all four of them in the upstairs bathroom together oh God after they're secured and at one point they literally
00:31:29
hog tied them in the bathroom together so they are all secured and so dick and Perry Smith ransacked the home looking
00:31:38
for cash invaluables that herb just told them weren't there you're not gonna find
00:31:42
it it proved to be true nothing was found of value and now they were even more Angry so they go back to the
00:31:49
bathroom they put tape over all the Clutter family's mouths they hog tie Bonnie herb Nancy and Kenyon herb and
00:31:56
Kenyon are then taken to the basement by dick and he throws herb onto the cement
00:32:00
floor and ties Kenyon to a soil pipe in the corner oh my God so dick then goes upstairs and he ties Nancy to her own
00:32:09
bed post he doesn't put there was no tape found on Nancy's mouth interesting all the
00:32:15
other ones were taped over the mouse weird um she's tagged our own bed post and Bonnie is first left hog tied in the
00:32:23
bathroom but she's later transferred to her bedroom where she's tied to a post as well
00:32:28
um Perry is watching Bonnie left to watch her and at one point he offered her a chair to make her more comfortable
00:32:36
okay to me this is scarier than straight up cruelty I don't know why because we know that
00:32:44
they were ultimately going to kill her anyway that's the compassionate behavior during something this scary is not
00:32:51
comforting no it's scary because you know that's what's going to happen either way and it's precisely why are
00:32:58
you being kind to me if if you don't know what you're going to do brutally murder me you nailed it that's exactly
00:33:04
what it is it's like you know what you're like I know what your plan is why are you even bothering like that's weird
00:33:11
it's like a like a devil angel yeah it's very strange now weirdly Smith shows some of this strange almost
00:33:18
compassionate behavior during their ordeal in the beginning later he changes that and he's without a doubt the more
00:33:25
violent of the pair to begin with so that's why it's even weirder that he's being the one that's compassionate dick
00:33:31
is a blowhard dick is a blowhard like he's probably the one yelling and screaming and trying to scare everybody
00:33:36
like an [ __ ] but Perry Smith is actually violent and scary you know what though that's I think that's what makes
00:33:44
it scarier it's like a weird comparison but it's like when your dad is like hey stop yeah you don't stop and he's like
00:33:52
cut it out and you don't cut it out and he [ __ ] blows up and yeah cut the [ __ ] like it's like loses it and you're
00:33:58
like oh my gosh it's like that you know yeah that's true and sometimes it's scary I've to me it's
00:34:08
scarier when someone is measured and calm in their Terror then like so anybody can yell and scream and flip out
00:34:17
right it takes a lot to be that measured calm and still be terrifying at the same
00:34:24
time it's like animalistic in a way yeah it's like how uh like an animal will get
00:34:29
quiet and kind of hunker down before it it stretches itself at you yeah you know
00:34:33
is that like a cornered animal exactly it's yeah it's wild no Perry Smith even uh notices that herb is cold on the
00:34:41
cement floor because it's in the winter yeah and so he places big pieces of cardboard beneath him to comfort him
00:34:48
what the then Kenyan is complete he's saying that his bindings are cutting off his circulation and he was like can you
00:34:55
please just loosen them and Perry Smith removes them and then brings Kenyon to a
00:35:00
sofa where he ties him looser and provides him a pillow under his head remember there was no way they didn't
00:35:09
intend to kill these people from the jump in my opinion yeah so this to me like we were saying is almost crueler
00:35:16
than just being cold yeah it's like you're giving people hope here that they can survive this do you think there was
00:35:23
like some weird part of him that was struggling internally whether he was going to or not
00:35:27
I almost think I'm wondering if he found and I was just in this because this whole thing lasted like two hours wow
00:35:36
where they were just in complete Terror not having any idea what was going to happen
00:35:40
I to me the fact that it lasted for two hours and then How It Ends I think Smith
00:35:46
was not really caring about these people or their comfort or their lives or anything I kind of think in this maybe
00:35:52
this is just me this is my analysis of the situation I think he was finding some kind of amusement out of the faux
00:36:00
show of I could see that compassion I think I think he wanted to be seen as the nicer of the two they were almost
00:36:08
doing a good cop bad cop thing uh-huh and I think Perry Smith was like well this is fun I can just pretend to be a
00:36:13
nice person well because it's almost more torturous exactly I can give these people hope and then I can snuff it out
00:36:18
at the last second to me that's what it looks like yeah but who knows he was a very complicated individual later so
00:36:25
like who really knows but after the two hours of Terror Smith insists this is why I think that what I just said it was
00:36:36
Smith Perry Smith who insisted they killed that dick used the hunting knife that he brought with him to kill herb
00:36:43
clutter not even the gun and he even teased him about being too chicken to scary out the plan that he had
00:36:49
supposedly come ready to carry out so that's why I think that Smith wasn't actually having any moments of
00:36:55
compassion I think it was Amusement I could I could yeah yeah I think it was just passing the time just making it
00:37:02
worse that's real weird now after dick hesitated Smith takes the hunting knife out of
00:37:08
Dick's hands and he slits Herb's throat with it oh my God then he shoots herb in
00:37:13
the head with the shotgun at close range there was no need no there was no need just he wanted to do that now remember
00:37:22
too Kenyon is right there all of this oh was this the sofa was in the basement yeah there was a sofa in
00:37:31
the basement I see I see yeah so he saw or at the very least heard all of this oh my now Kenyan was killed second by a
00:37:40
shotgun blast to the head while laying on the couch with a pillow under his head that's where he was found and then
00:37:46
you know obviously Nancy and you can hear the shock upstairs oh my God they then went to Nancy and shot her as she
00:37:55
was like tied to her bed post that's where she was found and then they went to Bonnie and as they did this each time
00:38:02
they would shoot one of them they collected the spent shotgun shells because they thought they were smart and
00:38:07
they thought that would help them get away with it so herb was the only one who they used the knife on and the rest
00:38:12
of them were shot that's interesting yeah and they were shot with a shotgun at very close range all in the face or
00:38:18
head so it was very brutal like very brutal and as if we needed more proof of this Paris callus in monstrous ways
00:38:25
Smith Perry Smith later told the jury at his trial quote it was like picking off
00:38:31
Targets in a shooting gallery oh was it yeah it wasn't like ending a family's life yeah lives literally like children
00:38:39
now after terrorizing and murdering the entire clutter family in the home dick and Smith left with kenyon's portable
00:38:47
transistor radio his pair of binoculars and the forty dollars that they got from
00:38:52
Herb's wallet wow and that's it wow they killed that entire family who was in the
00:38:58
home that night for forty dollars a transistor radio and a pair of binoculars it's interesting that they
00:39:06
didn't write a check yeah they probably couldn't find the checks probably either and they're too stupid
00:39:11
probably but they drive to the county line they pulled over to clean themselves up and they used water from
00:39:17
the car radiator to clean the blood off their hands and the gun and then Perry Smith dug a hole on the side of the
00:39:24
highway where he buried the knife the spent shotgun shells the tape and the Rope
00:39:30
yeah it just goes back to life as as usual oh yeah and eventually they didn't even leave the knife there the knife was
00:39:37
found later at Dick's farm so they must have taken it yeah now Susan Kidwell always attended church with the Clutter
00:39:45
family on Sunday she was just a family friend a child a family friend but this Sunday the 15th they didn't arrive to
00:39:52
pick her up they didn't call so she was concerned immediately with this weird change of behavior and she tried calling
00:39:58
them several times but there was no answer at the house so she and her friend Nancy ewalt convinced Nancy's
00:40:04
father Clarence to drive the girls over to the Clutter farm and just check on what was going on yeah now right away it
00:40:10
was clear something was off when they arrived they saw that all the car the car was still there but the house was
00:40:16
quiet and dark so Clarence put the car in park but Susan was nervous and hesitant to get
00:40:22
out and go into the door because she was like something's off yeah she sometimes
00:40:25
you could just feel it yeah and she knew it and later she would tell Truman Capote when he came to talk to people in
00:40:30
this community about the crimes she said quote I was frightened I don't know why
00:40:35
because it never occurred to me well something like that just doesn't like why would you ever think no she was
00:40:41
actually hoping the dad would just go into the home but he'd been working outside that morning and his boots were
00:40:46
covered in mud so he didn't want to go in so he was I don't he was like I don't want to track mud all over their house
00:40:51
so Susan and Nancy were like fine we'll go in oh God and they went around the kitchen door which was unlocked and they
00:40:58
knew it would be because that was normal for the clutters and most people around
00:41:01
the area at the time they never locked their doors yeah it's a small quiet especially during the day but from the
00:41:07
moment the two girls entered the entered the home they said they could just feel
00:41:10
it something was off and they said there was no breakfast remnants not even signs
00:41:15
that anyone had woken up no dishes nothing and that was very unusual this wasn't like this Lively bustling family
00:41:21
right then they noticed Nancy's purse it was lying on the kitchen floor and it was open like someone had gone
00:41:28
through it and then thrown it back down on the floor so they called for Nancy and they started up the stairs
00:41:34
they saw her bedroom door slightly ajar and they went in blindly oh now Susan later told Truman Capote I don't
00:41:42
remember screaming Nancy says I did screamed and screamed I only remember Nancy's teddy bear staring at me and
00:41:49
Nancy and running oh my God yeah Nancy had been still in her in her bed dressed in her nightgown
00:41:57
she was bound with her hands and feet with cords torn from her curtains and her face was unrecognizable from a
00:42:05
shotgun blast at close range blood had spattered all over the room the walls the bed the floor it was a horror show
00:42:12
that these two girls walked in on and their friend yeah Now by this time her her father Clarence was actually
00:42:21
thinking twice about sending the girls into the home alone and felt bad yeah so he had gotten out of the car and was
00:42:27
walking towards the house and he heard because he was gonna go in there he heard them screaming and then saw them
00:42:32
running through the kitchen door and back outside so they told them what they found and he went into check he found
00:42:38
the same thing and at this point he had only found Nancy they didn't even know that everybody else was in there and
00:42:43
they called the sheriff this was not a normal or run-of-the-mill crime scene especially not for the
00:42:50
county sheriff's office in Holcomb Kansas I would not think so so Finney County Kansas uh excuse me so Finney
00:42:56
County Sheriff Earl Robinson called in his friend Alvin Dewey at the Kansas Bureau of Investigation the kbi okay and
00:43:04
asked for assistance because this was big so as they went through the home they found Nancy as she was described
00:43:09
and they also found Bonnie with a shotgun blast to the head when they went to the basement they found Kenyan still
00:43:15
tied to the sofa with a pillow under his head and a shotgun blast to the face they also found herb clutter he seemed
00:43:22
to have been tortured possibly before being murdered because he was hung from a pipe in the basement oh his throat was
00:43:31
slit and he was shot with the shotgun and that's awful because then you know Kenyan saw yeah or heard it or had some
00:43:39
knowledge of it the killers were on the loose and they had a quadruple homicide of an entire
00:43:44
family on their hands so kbi director Logan Sanford assigned an additional 17 investigators to this case
00:43:52
so they immediately believed that this was a home invasion robbery gone wrong which they were half right yeah sort of
00:43:58
it really was in in the grand scheme of things but they were confused because they had ransacked the home but they had
00:44:05
left an envelope full of cash on Nancy's Bureau that was a plain sight wow it was
00:44:10
cash that was to be donated to church on Sunday huh and somehow I don't know if herb just didn't know about it or forgot
00:44:17
about it in the chaos yeah but they didn't mention it and they didn't find it so no jewelry was taken like herb and
00:44:24
Bonnie's gold wedding bands were still on they're just stupid Bonnie was wearing a diamond ring that she always
00:44:31
wore and it was still on interesting so they shifted from just a random home invasion and then they thought it might
00:44:37
be even a grudge killing where someone had an ax to grind with herb clutter they went after his whole family because
00:44:44
local business people that herb did work or did work with said they did have slight ill will towards
00:44:51
him because of business [ __ ] yeah like you were saying that earlier but since he was bigger in local politics it
00:44:57
wasn't far-fetched to think that someone had targeted him I wonder I was just kind of thinking while you were talking
00:45:03
I wonder if the reason that one they didn't write themselves a check and two they didn't steal any jewelry I mean
00:45:08
it's weird that they didn't take that envelope cash but I guess the jewelry and the the check could be traced back
00:45:14
to them so maybe they were thinking that that's the only thing I could think of but then I was like are they that smart
00:45:19
no because I mean they did collect the spent shells as they went but that's like
00:45:23
I feel like anybody can figure that out yeah I mean most some people don't like a lot I was just gonna say to be honest
00:45:29
a lot of people don't do that so I guess that does show a certain level of criminal know-how I suppose yeah but
00:45:36
yeah it's strange but that makes that's what I thought too when I first thought of the check thing I was like oh that
00:45:41
could be traced back obviously so and then like if you tried to pawn any of the jewelry for money a pawn shop in the
00:45:47
area wouldn't know it's true but then on the other side of that they do end up selling the transistor radio and
00:45:54
binoculars to get money at a pawn shop or like at a they actually end up going to Mexico
00:46:00
yeah jewelry and sold it down there yeah yeah I think they're just dumb I think they're just idiots to be honest
00:46:10
[Music] now they found very little Clues until they went into the uh the basement and
00:46:26
found boot prints and blood on the cardboard where Smith had laid herb on one was a boot print with a diamond
00:46:32
pattern and was clearly showing the cat's paw brand logo none of these boots matched the Clutter family and so they
00:46:40
were sure that they had two killers on the loose because it was a diamond pattern and then one with the cat's paw
00:46:45
brand to logo on it so they determined the murder weapon to be a pump action 12 gauge shotgun they were also able to
00:46:53
determine that the shells used by that particular shotgun were a match for the Shell's investigators were led to four
00:46:59
days later they were found in a stupidly shallow hole that Perry Smith had buried
00:47:05
them in the evening of the murders wow they were easily found because the Sheriff's Office received a report from
00:47:10
a citizen who discovered blood stains on a highway bridge oh my God and there was
00:47:16
only about a quarter of a mile south of the Clutter farm and the person called it in and was like there's blood on the
00:47:21
highway yeah like maybe go look at that now very quickly the murders were top news all over Holcomb of course people
00:47:29
were shocked not only did this not happen in a very safe and quiet community but the Clutter family were
00:47:36
very well liked in a very upstanding family to think they were mute they were murdered in their own home by strangers
00:47:43
was unthinkable so residents started telling reporters that for the first time they bought
00:47:49
locks or they even changed the existing ones they had oh I bet people started thinking like they never had before and
00:47:55
of course rumors began to swirl that didn't help the panic and Chaos people said that at one point a quote one-time
00:48:02
mental patient had must have shown up in town and committed the heinous crime but
00:48:07
obviously no evidence to that yes this is the movie was found yeah exactly now November 19th the funerals
00:48:15
were held at the First Methodist Church in Garden City hundreds of people showed up to pay
00:48:21
their respects in fact it was estimated that over a thousand people wow attended
00:48:25
uh all four clutter clutter family members were in silver closed caskets side by side the kbi and several
00:48:33
officers from the sheriff's department were there because they were friends with herb like this obviously they were
00:48:40
working a case but they were there purely because they were literally friends with him when they walked into
00:48:45
that crime scene they were seeing their friend in a family that they were very close with I can't imagine that and I
00:48:51
can't imagine a funeral with an entire family laid out and caskets next to each other before you like think of a funeral
00:48:59
alone when one person has passed four people yeah like and a family and in that way just layer upon layer of
00:49:08
Devastation it makes me think of like the Villisca ax murders before the hinter kaifek murder ax murders it's
00:49:15
like when a whole family or what one that you covered um one time at first I was like oh my
00:49:21
gosh like I was like did you already cover this but then this one yeah so differently
00:49:26
um the Lawson family yeah that's the one on it was on like Christmas day yep in like
00:49:33
North Carolina yeah yeah and they were farmers right yeah and I think Arthur the older son is the only one that that
00:49:39
survived it's similar it's a similar Vibe of like an entire family right yeah it's awful it really is and again these
00:49:46
kbi agents and the sheriff's department officers were friends to this family and
00:49:51
to Herb like this was awful this sucked um but they were also there to look for any signs of the killer showing up at
00:49:57
the funeral as they sometimes do a lot of times they were laid to rest at Fairview Cemetery
00:50:03
now very shortly after the murders became local news it went National herb was in National politics and also
00:50:11
the crime was just not something seen very often at this time it was heinous and brutal and to have again a whole
00:50:17
family snuffed out in the middle of the night and their home was Unthinkable so Sally keglovitz pointed
00:50:24
out that's I mentioned her publication earlier and we'll link it in the show notes she points out murder of this
00:50:30
magnitude just didn't happen to farm families in the heartland of America no so there was a brief moment November
00:50:37
20th where they thought they may have found their killers they pulled over two men traveling to Hoisington Kansas from
00:50:43
Hoisington Kansas to Louisiana for work these men Marion Livingston and E.L gray
00:50:50
were suspicious in the context of what had happened in the area to be honest when they were pulled over they had a
00:50:57
loaded shotgun and a loaded 32 caliber pistol in the car with them they were questioned but they obviously denied
00:51:05
having anything to do with the Clutter family murders and found to have zero connection with it and they were cleared
00:51:09
uh but when they were pulled over initially and arrested they thought they had their guys oh that sucks now a few
00:51:15
days after the killings Floyd Wells heard the news one afternoon while he was listening to the radio at this
00:51:21
Kansas State Penitentiary he was drawn to it but didn't want to make any kind of connection to it you
00:51:27
know anything about what Dick had said or Dick's Obsession he just heard that the Clutter family had been murdered
00:51:33
Floyd and he was like I don't want to have anything to do with that now looks like his conscience did get the best of
00:51:40
him though because after two weeks of stewing on the very obvious connection he decided he needed to unload his
00:51:46
burden so he made a plan but his plan was to be called out to the warden's office under
00:51:51
a false pretense like he made something happen that he would have to be called there because he doesn't want to be a
00:51:56
snitch he didn't want to be seen as snitching on the other inmates so this way it looked like he was in trouble and
00:52:02
not that he wanted to talk to the warden a whole entire family got murdered and I
00:52:08
know about it like I don't want to look like a snitch it's like they're they're snitching and then there's just being a
00:52:14
moral human yeah being a human with morals but unfortunately he would have got God oh 100 no it's wild to think of
00:52:21
it like he would have got caught because he yeah was like Hey I know the guy that
00:52:24
took out an entire [ __ ] family yep for nothing now once they were alone in the warden's office he told the whole
00:52:31
story about the safe and the Clutter farm and how he had told it all to Dick Hickok and he said quote I distinctly
00:52:39
remember Mr clutter play paying a large Lumber bill and I thought he paid it in cash with money from the safe he didn't
00:52:45
I thought being the keywords the reason I remember is because Mr clutter made the remark to me that evening when we
00:52:52
left his den he'd paid out more than ten thousand dollars that day I described the location of the house I suspect I
00:52:59
talk too much about the money Mr clutter had yeah Hickok talked a lot about Perry
00:53:03
Smith said after after they got out of the joint they could pull some jobs to get enough money for a down payment on a
00:53:08
boat they would run a charter service for deep sea fishermen and eventually make contacts and use the boat to bring
00:53:14
in Narcotics I didn't believe Hickok but he kept talking about it I tried to talk
00:53:19
him out of it said he would get caught but he said he had a plan and after the robbery would kill everyone there and
00:53:24
leave no Witnesses so you're a witness though buddy this was huge this was the first real lead in
00:53:32
the case now they had the names of the two very viable suspects and very likely suspects I'm glad that he ended up
00:53:39
having that change apart now do we and the other agents of the kbi started a huge Manhunt for the two men led by
00:53:46
Harold Nye who was a kbi agent at the time they first went into both of their criminal records and were able to use
00:53:52
those to lead to family members and other known associates to try to track down their movements now on December 9
00:54:00
1959 Nye and a team of kbi Agents arrived at the Hickok family farm with a warrant to search the premises there
00:54:09
they recovered that hunting knife and the Savage pump action shotgun that was the murder weapon of the at the Clutter
00:54:16
family Massacre boom they went into high gear now because Smith and Hickok were nowhere to be found they had only gone
00:54:23
to the they had gotten the warrant searched it found those things they didn't find those two were they in New
00:54:28
Mexico at this point at this point they had no idea that they had fled the [ __ ] country they went to Mexico
00:54:34
after the murders there they stole they sold the stolen car they used to get to the Clutter farm and they sold whatever
00:54:42
items they had stolen from the house and after this they ran out of money pretty
00:54:46
quickly and so they returned to the U.S where they spent some time stealing more
00:54:51
cars and just driving around trying to figure out how to get more money even coming back to Kansas
00:54:58
and stealing more money and cashing bad checks for good measure so they that was
00:55:04
exactly the check thing there we're giving them too much credit for real then they left the state again but on on
00:55:11
December 30th to Las Vegas police officers happened to spot a car that they remembered as matching the
00:55:17
description of a stolen car described in an APB and it was only a couple days earlier there was an APB that went out
00:55:24
about a stolen car so they pulled the car over thinking it would be pretty routine
00:55:29
but it was anything but because inside the car was the real life versions of the mug shots that had been distributed
00:55:35
all over the news like dick Hickok and Perry Smith sat in this 1956 Chevy that was indeed stolen wow so shockingly both
00:55:44
of them were arrested without incident weirdly interesting and brought back to Findlay County Kansas where they were
00:55:50
placed in separate jail cells Hickok pretty quickly tried to pin the entirety of the blame on Smith of course uh four
00:55:57
days later dick Hickok and Perry Smith were charged with four counts of felony murder for the killings of Herbert
00:56:03
Bonnie Nancy and Kenyan clutter now shortly after their arrest news outlets around the country said that
00:56:11
they were caught and everybody could breathe a collective sigh of relief they called Richard weak-faced Richard Hickok
00:56:19
they called Perry Smith runty and that the two broke down under under questioning and confessed to murdering
00:56:26
the Clutter family because they didn't want any Witnesses damn they did indeed confess
00:56:32
um there was a time like I said when Dick decided to pin the entire thing on Perry Smith but they admitted to what
00:56:38
happened they both just look like [ __ ] idiots now trial was set for March 22nd 1960 and judge Roland green
00:56:46
would be presiding he immediately denied the request to have them tried separately which is a boss move in my
00:56:52
opinion they didn't need to get the opportunity to blame to pin the blame on the other one again in a separate trial
00:56:58
I totally see that this is when she gets strange so they kept them separated at all times so they couldn't concoct any
00:57:05
kind of story but Perry Smith was held in what is known as the ladies cell in the
00:57:12
courthouse not real sure why it's called that now 1960 in 1960 The Garden City Sheriff's Office
00:57:19
was contained within the Finney County Courthouse with the sheriff's residents being located next door okay so it was
00:57:27
very near the holding cell where Smith was being held the residents of the sheriff right Earl Robinson the sheriff
00:57:35
already had a home in Holcomb so he didn't want to live in the sheriff's residence so he offered the sheriff's
00:57:41
residence that was next to the Finney County Courthouse to the undersheriff okay it was like right underneath him
00:57:47
yeah his name was Wendell exactly and his wife's name was Josephine or Josie that's nice of him now weirdly because
00:57:56
of the way the cells in the interior walls of the now under Sheriff's residence were placed Smith was able to
00:58:02
see into the home at times what yeah and Josie the wife actually ended up taking
00:58:10
a liking to Perry Smith a man who killed an entire family including a 16 year old girl and a 15
00:58:18
year old boy the sheriff was not happy about this whole thing because At first she was basically like thought he was
00:58:25
like oh like poor him like he's such a sad a sad Tale uh I don't get it poor him poor him he
00:58:34
murdered a whole last family ma'am I don't get that's like I don't get that kind of thing but like that kind of
00:58:40
thing like what even is I mean like I don't get like I'm sure part of this was religious in some way this is a very
00:58:47
religious community I'm sure she was a church-going gal and I'm sure she felt like forgiveness needed to be placed I
00:58:53
feel like murder's like a really big sin chica uh I don't I don't think that that
00:58:59
is for you are correct 100 and that's why I personally don't understand the Forgiveness thing in that sense or being
00:59:06
kind to this kind of person no maybe that's where it came from with her is is all I'm trying to say like I don't
00:59:14
understand it so I think I'm trying to find some kind of oh yeah some kind of like why would you be nice to this man
00:59:21
like I don't understand that I think she was nice to him because she found him to
00:59:24
be attractive it kind of seems like that but who knows I don't get it the sheriff
00:59:29
was not happy with their like really relationship here and insisted she stay away from him but she saw him as a sort
00:59:36
of Lost Boy Who had a rough go in life girly girl yeah they ended up spending a ton of time together she would make his
00:59:44
[ __ ] lunch and eat it with him a girl seek help thank you thank you I'm not even there that's ridiculous he murdered
00:59:53
children and their parents an entire family for no [ __ ] reason whatsoever not that there is a reason but no but
01:00:00
not even a reason for him like for a transistor radio getting forty dollars making a murderer's lunch and eating it
01:00:07
with him guess what I don't get and it's like you are the under sheriff's wife what the [ __ ] is wrong with you you
01:00:14
chose the wrong husband girly yeah like you chose the wrong path or maybe maybe that's why she chose him I don't know
01:00:19
maybe she had a thing for bad boys who knows this is more than just like a bad boy but what's Perry Smith actually
01:00:25
wrote in his journals about how much how kind she was and how like he really liked her of course course she was kind
01:00:32
to a fault in my opinion I mean one might say that's just me no yeah but I don't get her these are all opinions but
01:00:39
like wowie yeah exactly because remember let me just in case you're sitting there
01:00:44
going well yeah Perry Smith had such a sad childhood and like he was he never killed anybody over it these are
01:00:51
cold-blooded killers and they proved it again and again dick Hickok said later that he remembered hearing a gurgling
01:00:58
noise coming from herb after his throat was cut and two police he said about Smith he just cut the hell out of him
01:01:06
so this is who we're talking about exactly that's what he said like I think we can we can get rid of the the turkey
01:01:14
sandwiches with the crust cut off that that poor guy I think we can and his upbringing like again feel bad for the
01:01:21
kid sure totally I feel bad I feel terrible for the kid I don't feel bad for the adult plenty of people have
01:01:27
abusive childhoods and that's [ __ ] awful and you don't get not all of them go out and kill people you don't get to
01:01:34
go murder someone about it no that's anything it should make you want to be a better person in life and like yeah
01:01:40
totally a better parent or yeah to break the cycle now I'm so mad and I know an army friend of Perry Smith's named Don
01:01:49
cullivan visited him in prison and he was told the entire graphic detail of the crime and he said that Smith said
01:01:57
about her but heard the herb clutter excuse me he told him quote as I pulled the trigger there was a flash of blue
01:02:04
light I could see his head split part that's what he told this man as Josie is over there cutting the crust off his
01:02:12
sandwich yeah exactly so just put just make sure we're all on the same page she's like you know if it weren't for
01:02:17
his shitty childhood he would have done that so lost a lost soul but of course Hickok and Smith's attorneys were gun
01:02:24
hoe about getting an insanity defense and in the 1960s the predominant test for sanity in criminal proceedings was
01:02:32
the McNaughton test it was originally established in the 1840s so already it's timely and very relevant to the 60s even
01:02:40
and it was standard but it was a standard by which someone was deemed to be sane during the commission of a
01:02:46
criminal act as long as they understood the act as illegal and or considered by Society to be morally wrong yeah of
01:02:54
course now we know it's outdated and ignores all Nuance of psychology and emotional state during criminal acts but
01:03:01
whatever so the attorneys Harrison Smith and am Fleming filed a motion for their
01:03:06
clients to undergo a man mental status exam which is pretty normal yeah the court appointed three General
01:03:12
Practitioners John O Austin MD R.J Maxfield MD and gust H Nelson MD gust or Goose I'm not really sure how you would
01:03:22
say I feel like Goose goose to Nelson they performed the evaluation they all said that both killers were
01:03:29
sane at the time of committing the ACT uh but I guess it's kind of important to note that at this time Kansas law
01:03:35
apparently only allowed the evaluation to be submitted as either yes they are sane or no they are not so any we you
01:03:43
don't get any kind of insight or any kind of nuance to any of this just yep they were saying it's just like Circle
01:03:49
yes or Circle no literally yeah like that's literally what it was it was yes or no yeah the end colors no Nuance no
01:03:56
psychology nothing behind it just an interesting little thing but they were same yeah so weirdly this trial was
01:04:02
short and uneventful considering how huge this case was I mean they had the murder weapons taken from Hickox Farm
01:04:09
boots matching the prince found in blood on the cardboard in the Clutter house basement next to Herb's body and also
01:04:15
the other items they had found buried next to the highway also both of them confessed they did it verbally but not
01:04:21
written but neither one of them were denying what they did or how they did it so it was pretty much a slim junk so of
01:04:28
course it was going to be pretty short and sweet right the prosecution began their opening statements by describing
01:04:33
in graphic detail how they methodically tortured psychologically and physically and murdered the entire clutter family
01:04:41
and reminded them all that they had about a million chances to stop and leave these people alive but they chose
01:04:47
to keep going further and further exactly in fact they pointed to the fact that when the light came on before they
01:04:54
even entered the house they considered leaving and they didn't this really hammered in the idea that this was
01:05:00
intentional murder and not just a robbery gone wrong yeah and it didn't go wrong they woke herb up
01:05:06
they said where's your safe he said I don't have one of those do you want to check that's as good as a robbery can go
01:05:12
I in my opinion like oh no I don't have a safe you're mistaken I'll just give you money right like that's not a
01:05:19
robbery gone wrong if you're going in there for the Soul's sake of robbing you'd say yeah I'll take that check bye
01:05:24
like don't say anything or I'll kill your whole family bye like I'm pretty sure he would have been like to do that
01:05:30
yeah don't do that so the second day of the trial was reserved for a trip to the
01:05:34
Clutter home to this crime scene during which the jury was given a tour of the entire thing and they could ask
01:05:40
questions they were shown things the Press spoke to the killers families during the trial and it gave a little
01:05:47
insight into the reality of these kind of crimes and the Myriad of people they affect even past the first degree
01:05:53
victims in the case which a lot of people don't think about when asked for comment about his son's prospects with
01:05:59
the jury Walter Hickox said to a reporter they'll both get the Rope and that was his dad which is like sad
01:06:07
and this was um dick hickok's dad who like they weren't abusive right exactly and he's probably just like why didn't
01:06:14
they're like turned out this way yeah and they were in very frail house Health his parents Dick's parents and um they
01:06:21
were at the courtroom every single day for the trial they maintained their son's innocence from the very beginning
01:06:26
they really just had to for their own it was just hope in fact his dad said dick
01:06:31
didn't do the killing he told me that the first time I saw him he had nothing to do with it so he's just going by like
01:06:37
he my son told me he didn't do it right now interestingly it was these kinds of comments and the sight of Dick's frail
01:06:44
parents being so distraught that their son could have possibly done this that made Perry Smith actually do another
01:06:51
weird thing for a cold-blooded killer he attempted to recant his confession but not saying he didn't do it he recanted
01:07:01
the part where he claimed that he and Hickok Had Each killed two members of the Clutter family he now wanted to say
01:07:06
that he killed them all interesting the judge denied his attempt to recant and later Smith said he only attempted to do
01:07:14
that because he didn't want Dick's parents to quote go to their graves thinking their son was a killer it's
01:07:20
weird because he does have some level of compassion if you're willing to to go away for your entire life and like when
01:07:28
you know full well that this other person had just as much as a hand of it in the in that than you did excuse me
01:07:34
like that's a level of compassion yeah and why could you not look at that family and have that same compassion
01:07:41
that's the thing that's where my my it does not compute for me because I and I also think back and I'm like okay so
01:07:47
Josie the undersheriff's wife I'm like maybe that's the kind of [ __ ] she was hearing and that's the kind of [ __ ] she
01:07:55
was seeing and it was bending her mind a little bit to be like could this guy have done this you know what I mean like
01:08:01
he seems so like I mean these are like people in Kansas in the 1950s yeah this is a woman's people a woman in Kansas in
01:08:09
the 1950s she's not being fed the kind of education that we are now and it's like you know what I mean so it's like
01:08:16
she's she's like a good church going you know a housewife right she's not like it
01:08:22
worldly it's like so she's hearing this guy be like saying these kind of things you know I mean which I'm sure he was
01:08:28
able to say some things that sounded very compassionate I'm very empathetic and maybe that's why she was drawn to to
01:08:36
be kind to him yeah no you're not I guess I'm trying to find some kind of way around that but
01:08:42
I think he was very good at showing those kind of things but I'm I'm just having trouble with the like what do you
01:08:49
what are you feeling what are you really feeling like do you do you feel that way
01:08:53
you have compassion for this guy's elderly parents so what the what the [ __ ] like how is it
01:08:59
how does it only go that far I don't know if it's like he had Compassion maybe it was like more compassion for
01:09:05
dick because his parents were struggling and then maybe the reason why he was able to kill the Clutter family is
01:09:11
because like that family represented everything he didn't have yeah maybe I don't know I'm
01:09:17
sure there's some deep psychology involved in this but it's a very interesting he's interested he's a
01:09:23
dichotomy for sure very much is [Music] now on the final day of testimonies the prosecution called Floyd Wells to the
01:09:44
stand oh [ __ ] Wells told the jury all about the information he had given Hickok about the wealthy clutter family
01:09:50
and the safe and said he initially assumed dick was just going to apply for a job at the Clutter farm when he was
01:09:56
released yeah which I'm like didn't know you didn't but he said about two weeks before he was scheduled to be released
01:10:03
that's when Dick started talking about robbing the family to buy the boat so he was like At first I thought he just
01:10:08
wanted a job Maybe who knows but then he admitted a couple of weeks before that's when he really
01:10:15
went into high gear saying he was going to rob them and I didn't know what to do
01:10:18
and the prosecution asked Wells if Hickok made it known that he intended to commit some kind of act of violence
01:10:25
along with this and Wells said quote he told me he'd tie them up Rob them and kill them boom boom
01:10:32
so in a desperate move dick Hickok released a handwritten note to the Press and he got it there through his mother
01:10:39
his mother delivered it to the press and in that letter it said that Wells had been in on the plan all along I believe
01:10:46
that and he said Wells made a diagram of the Clutter home and how to get to it and the note said if the job amounted to
01:10:54
five thousand dollars Wells was to get one thousand dollars I mean that's the thing how would they have gotten there
01:10:58
in the first place I think that too like but I know he definitely had some involvement in it I don't know when he
01:11:04
was set to be released that's the only thing um that I'm like when was he getting out
01:11:09
of jail but maybe it was just that like maybe he thought he'd get out of jail early and if he did he'd be a full part
01:11:13
of the plan but because he gave them the diagram and the information in the first
01:11:16
place he was due to some kind of cut yeah it's a strange but then I'm like but I don't believe dick either I don't
01:11:23
believe dick but just based on the fact that he told Wells told him that the Clutter family had this money in the
01:11:30
first place well and it's also I mean I think this was kind of a lot of this what he says is a lie a lot of what dick
01:11:38
says is lies yeah he the death penalty was on the table yeah and he really didn't want to die of course and I think
01:11:46
he was really doing Hail Mary's at the end to try to get anything and I think he was pissed when Floyd Wells got on
01:11:52
that stand and said that yeah it absolutely could be true but I'm more inclined to say that dick is a lying
01:11:58
sack of [ __ ] I but I think I believe that Wells had at least more to do with this than just the information of they
01:12:04
had that money yeah oh I think he gave him a ton of information about the farm about everything
01:12:10
I think he gave him all that stuff and I think but I don't know how far that went
01:12:15
and who knows yeah that's the thing now a few days later dick also gave the Topeka daily Capital News Journal a
01:12:24
journalist from that his name was Ron cull he gave him a statement from that in the paper ran it on the day of the
01:12:31
day after wells's testimony and in this it said and this is from dick Hickok quote I'm sorry for what I did but I can
01:12:38
undo what's already been done but if killing me would bring them back I'd just walk up there right now and tell
01:12:44
them to go ahead but it won't he also said he wasn't getting a fair trial he said kbi agents lied on the
01:12:50
stand about his confession in Las Vegas and he said quote they got the confession by whipping me on my head
01:12:56
with their fists and blackjacks for about an hour well you also tormented a man before you killed him every word of
01:13:03
this letter is a lie yeah he lied like he's a lying sack of [ __ ] I bet it was just to avoid the death penalty that's
01:13:09
all it was he was interviewed a ton of time since he returned from Las Vegas right after he returned from Las Vegas
01:13:15
not one Bruce was seen on him not one bit of evidence of a beating could be seen and one that he claimed he received
01:13:23
for over an hour with blackjacks and fists he would be black and purple and blue yeah like not one Bruce was found
01:13:30
on this man's body no none now it was also definitely being put out there to Aid their appeals later all of
01:13:38
this was because following their conviction obviously dick and Smith apply filed an appeal claiming you know
01:13:45
their rights had been violated the whole being denied separate trials things the
01:13:51
judge refused to allow evidence you know of the psychiatric evaluations that would have helped them all the [ __ ]
01:13:56
that's like [ __ ] off y'all we found the hunting knife in your possession y'all
01:14:01
you confessed to it like like you confess the trial concluded on March 29 1960 the
01:14:10
jury deliberated for 40 minutes and found both men guilty of the crimes I bet they both exhausted their appeals
01:14:18
and finally they were sentenced to die by hanging on Wednesday April 14 1965. on that day their attorneys made
01:14:27
one last day last day plea for Mercy to the U.S Supreme Court on their behalf um it basically it got denied and denied
01:14:35
and denied right up until the last second um and Justice Byron it was Justice Byron white who oversaw the 10th
01:14:42
District U.S circuit court at the time he was the one who denied the final stay of execution and declined any comment
01:14:49
about it just denied bye I feel like this doesn't need a comment no do you see what happened on that farm well it's
01:14:56
like denied that's all you need to do like I picture him like stamping denied now a few minutes after midnight on
01:15:03
April 14th 19 165 dick Hickok and Perry Smith were hanged at the Kansas State penitentiary in Lansing for his final
01:15:11
words Perry Smith took the opportunity to condemn capital punishment completely he said
01:15:17
I think it is a hell of a thing that a life has to be taken in this manner go [ __ ] yourself I say this especially
01:15:25
because there's a great deal I could have offered Society I certainly think capital punishment is legally and
01:15:31
morally wrong yep just like murder oh you had stuff you could have offered offered society that whole family was
01:15:39
offering Society a [ __ ] ton and yeah exactly why did you never offer Society anything in the how old was he like 29
01:15:46
30 yeah he was like you had plenty of years to offer Society a bunch of [ __ ] and all you did was steal lie cheat and
01:15:52
kill so go [ __ ] yourself and it's like we're talking about morals right now and
01:15:58
like I said I've said it forever that I'm like leaning more towards like against death penalty and I'm I sat in a
01:16:05
gray area forever but I'm leaning way more on that side of like I don't think it's a great thing but I also think it's
01:16:12
[ __ ] ridiculous for a cold-blooded murderer of an entire family to school just stand up there and be like guys
01:16:18
this is wrong it's like yeah no [ __ ] [ __ ] that's the whole thing is wrong like you're wrong yeah like this whole
01:16:25
thing is wrong you killed an entire family no you can't tell me about morals and ethics and all that [ __ ] and kill an
01:16:31
entire family now dick Hickok said he didn't want to say any final words but then he was like
01:16:38
actually I do at the last second because he's just annoying up until the very end
01:16:42
yeah and in these final moments he said that the kba kbi agents who arrested him
01:16:48
he said that they were like it was their fault this was all on them and then he said you're sending me to a better place
01:16:54
than this and then he shook each of their hands and said goodbye wow so Hickok and Smith were buried on
01:17:02
the prison grounds and several years later there was an expansion of the prison plan so their bodies actually had
01:17:08
to be exhumed and relocated to mount Muncie Cemetery in Leavenworth County and actually Truman Capote purchased
01:17:16
headstones for both men but they were both stolen so the [ __ ] so weird speaking of Truman
01:17:23
Capote in 1958 Capote had the idea to create what he called the first non-fiction
01:17:29
novel in which he was looking to take a real event and turn it into kind of a story now he just couldn't find the
01:17:37
right subject and that is until he saw an article in the November 16 1959 New York Times that talked about a farmer
01:17:44
and his entire family who were murdered in their homes in Holcomb Kansas I don't
01:17:49
know why I keep saying Texas I'm sorry multiple sentence he went to Garden yeah like it sounds the same he went to
01:17:55
Garden City before Hickok and Smith had even been caught and along with his friend
01:18:00
um you might know this name Harper Lee I don't know yeah it doesn't ring as well
01:18:04
that one that one you know I promise a fellow author they began a real investigative Deep dive into the
01:18:11
clutter's lives and horrifically tragic deaths now Capote stuck out like a sore thumb in Kansas
01:18:18
if you look them up I was just gonna do that he was New York High Society even though he was raised in the deep south
01:18:25
ah but he was very much New York High Society he's very like he was very out very
01:18:32
exuberant like you would you would know him in a crowd he looks like a cool guy yeah he was cool so he spent months and
01:18:38
months speaking to everyone in Holcomb it's really spending time getting to know the community around the clutters
01:18:44
and everyone who ever knew them he assured them all that he was planning to write a factual account of the crime and
01:18:51
he wanted it to be from the perspectives of the people in and around Holcomb and
01:18:55
the community he made an impression but apparently when In Cold Blood was finally published in 1965 people in
01:19:04
Holcomb and Garden City were like a little confused uh-oh so in 2009 his friend and author you might know this
01:19:12
name Alan Schwartz great author wrote it is different than what they expected it
01:19:17
is not simply a matter of historical reporting I can imagine that a lot of people who were freaked out by what
01:19:23
happened in the middle of Kansas never understood that so the problem people found with the work was that they felt
01:19:30
it bordered on fiction the Clutter family felt like with all he put into getting to know the clutters and talking
01:19:37
with all of them he didn't put nearly enough of them in the book oh they were not happy and others said he got things
01:19:44
completely wrong which they were like he just fabricated things in fact in 2019 Gary McAvoy and Ronald Nye who was the
01:19:53
son of kbi agent uh Harold and I oh [ __ ] he published a book promoting a bunch of
01:19:59
new theories and really like going against a lot of capote's ideas that were from the book now still there were
01:20:07
many others in Holcomb and Garden City who appreciated the time and consideration that Capote and Harper
01:20:11
paid to the residents there Fielding hands a friend of the Clutter family said quote I think he did the
01:20:18
Family Justice for the things he said about them and what they did for the community
01:20:22
Susan Kidwell who was one of the two girls to discover the bodies she said yeah the book has some factual
01:20:29
inaccuracies and it's definitely like fiction in some parts but she said she had very positive experiences with
01:20:36
Truman Capote as a person she said quote to me he was very nice and very polite and I respected his work I never felt
01:20:44
that he was trying to use us in any way okay and I think that's what the that we're we're such like people sit in that
01:20:51
gray area with it is he went into it saying he wanted to make a non-fiction novel he went into it saying he wanted
01:20:57
to write a story about a real event so he didn't go in there with like total you know being like I'm just going to
01:21:05
straight report this yeah but if you're gonna do a non-fiction novel I don't think it should be about a
01:21:13
murder like I don't think you should choose the event that you should choose should be
01:21:18
one like this because there's just a lot of a lot of stuff in that so if you're gonna do something about a real event
01:21:25
like the Clutter family murders just report on it just write the story of it right if you want to do a a more
01:21:33
narrative fictionalized version maybe just choose an event that doesn't hold such
01:21:40
yeah like that you know what I mean emotions and I truly don't believe in my opinion this is just my opinion I truly
01:21:48
don't believe Truman Capote went in there trying to to [ __ ] people's lives up and it looks like somebody would I I
01:21:54
would hope somebody wouldn't well and it looks like a lot of people who interact
01:21:58
with him said they never had a bad experience with him and he seemed like he was a kind respectful person who
01:22:03
really did want to create something amazing and he did create something amazing the the book itself is amazing
01:22:08
it's like heart-wrenching it's like harrowing it's a lot of things what are the do you know what the parts are that
01:22:16
people feel are fictionalized or or are fiction I think it's just little details
01:22:20
I'm not exactly sure what pieces are okay um I do I do encourage people to read it because I think it's a a very
01:22:28
fascinating book and I think you like it's very well written but I can see why some people are like I'm not into the
01:22:36
creative license yeah it's hard to take creative life license and True Crime and
01:22:40
I don't necessarily think it's something you should do well and I think this was
01:22:43
from what like 65 you know what I mean so this was such a different era such a different era such a different time to
01:22:50
point this out he had never done this before no so that's this would this had never been done of course this was not
01:22:56
gonna go off without a hitch of course not it's the it's the inaugural one of these kind of genres you know like he
01:23:03
created this genre so it's like yeah there's gonna be some hiccups here and from from the looks of it a lot of
01:23:10
people that you hear like I said don't have bad things to say about him as a person
01:23:16
um even if they didn't necessarily like the book yeah that came out of it it was
01:23:19
a person or really him as an investigator no because he he did go out of his way yeah to spend on a [ __ ] ton
01:23:26
of time in Holcomb and talk to everybody he also talked to The Killers like he talked to there was all of that so if
01:23:33
you want to read it or you want to read up on it it's a very interesting story of how the book came to be I see that
01:23:39
there's a a rolling stone article about yeah go take go take a peek at it like read that like just so you can get some
01:23:45
more information about the book and the whole process I think it's a very interesting story behind the actual
01:23:50
bookmaking um but either way in Cold Blood is considered by many to be a masterpiece
01:23:56
of crime reporting in narrative nonfiction all right so it was actually adapted into a feature film in 1967 and
01:24:03
for television in 1966. so the Clutter house and farmland were auctioned off in March of 1960 then sold
01:24:12
again in I think the mid to late 1960s to a Rancher named Bob bird Taurus still flock to Holcomb just to
01:24:21
see the places mentioned in the book but a lot has changed since then I bet um like they they want to go see the house
01:24:28
they want to go see where it all happened isn't it crazy that that's really closer to a hundred years ago
01:24:33
yeah I know isn't that wild it really is crazy most people who are still around from the original crime who are in the
01:24:40
community or knew the family or part of the family they don't really want to speak about it anymore I get that so
01:24:46
don't ask them about it yeah they don't want to talk let those people rest in peace they really some people want
01:24:52
Holcomb to just be left alone and others are like it's fine this happened one I'm
01:24:57
sure they're like okay Holcomb is more than just this tragic that's exactly it yeah but they did memorialize the
01:25:03
Clutter family with a park in Holcomb okay and um in 2009 the Holcomb City Council put up a memorial for them in
01:25:11
town but the memorial only discusses their lives and accomplishments as a family does not talk about their deaths
01:25:18
I think think that's awesome which I think is a really good way of memorializing them yeah is by not even
01:25:22
mentioning what happened everybody knows everybody knows obviously so it's like it's nice that there's a memorial that
01:25:29
is just about who they were as people yeah and who they were to the community and as a family yeah definitely so that
01:25:35
is the terrible story yeah of the Clutter family murders or the In Cold Blood murder says it's sometimes known
01:25:42
truly a heroin case and the more and more you were going through it or like in the beginning I expected to know this
01:25:50
because it include in Cold Blood sounded really familiar to me but then when you
01:25:54
were going through this I actually don't think I've heard of you that's so funny
01:25:57
I don't think so anyway interesting you know what though I'm sure a lot of people like in probably in your age
01:26:03
group yeah and younger but probably they probably don't know about it either because as you just said this is this is
01:26:09
much longer ago than it was when I started like reading about these things right like I started reading about these
01:26:16
things and what like the 20 years ago like the late 1990s early like early 2000s it was 20 years ago much closer to
01:26:23
the 1960s so it's like now that is pretty far removed it is which is really that was that's just like interesting
01:26:30
now to think about how far that is I know and it's weird that we have we obviously have such different
01:26:35
experiences and uh being interested in True Crime like you know so many of those earlier cases that I'm just like
01:26:42
I've never heard of them and I'll be like what you don't know that but then when I actually think about it I'm like
01:26:46
well yeah I guess she doesn't know that because she was like not even born when that was even a yeah yeah but it was
01:26:52
funny because we're only 10 years apart and when you think about it 10 years is not yeah very much but 10 years really
01:26:57
makes all the difference it does it's crazy and that's the that on that and that's the that on that that was I
01:27:02
really liked the way that you told that story so thank you I appreciate that and
01:27:05
go check out that uh like any of the Rolling Stone articles or anything about the book and stuff I I'm sure people
01:27:11
have written like awesome stuff about yeah how they came to be and all that background totally I love about the
01:27:16
Rolling Stone check it out I don't know what it is there's some great ones out there and um Vanity Fair Vanity Fair
01:27:23
yeah they have a good Vanity Fair all right well with all that being said guys we hope that you keep listening and we
01:27:28
hope you keep it weird but not so worthy terrorize an entire family and then talk that the
01:27:34
death penalty is not right yeah don't do that I'm confused [Music] foreign [Music]
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