00:00:00
Hey weirdos. I'm Ash. >> And I'm Elena. >> And this is Morbid. [music] [music] This is morbid. Morbid
00:00:18
[singing and music] in the afternoon. Um, and I'm trying to think of uh I saw cuz like last time I think we were like,
00:00:26
"Okay, like set your timers cuz we're about to start the episode." I saw some funny ass people being like, "It starts
00:00:32
at 69 seconds, so like [laughter] it starts at 0.03 seconds." >> So now you're never going to know when
00:00:38
it starts. [laughter] >> So I think you guys are funny. >> You guys are funny. >> But I don't think we have a ton of
00:00:44
business. Um, just some the normal stuff. If you guys haven't bought tickets to the live
00:00:50
show at Radio City, the 27th, >> buy tickets to it cuz I'm telling you, it's going to be a blast. We've we've
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really nailed some stuff down. >> Yep. We're reeling it in. >> It's going to be fun. We have some fun
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merch. >> Yes. >> Um we have a special guest and it's just going to be a really fun time.
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>> Special fits from Romania. >> Yeah. Literally. >> So, get your butt there >> and then you can just wander around New
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York. >> Yeah. All night. >> Actually, don't because I've been s I mean, you shouldn't anyway, but like
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>> Yeah, it was always just a joke to begin with. I keep seeing these reports on the
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news the last couple days of >> I don't watch the news. >> People are like they're getting film of
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like in the middle of the night people are just going into manholes and then some people are like crawling out of
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manholes. It's just like a group of men. >> What? >> Who and they don't know what they're
00:01:32
doing. >> Are they the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? >> That's the running joke.
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>> That's the general consensus. >> But that's very dangerous. Like don't do that.
00:01:41
>> Like if you're one of those people, stop doing that. Also, like emerging from a
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manhole, you could get sachary banked real quick. >> Absolutely. >> That's crazy.
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>> Yeah, I'm saying. >> I was like, you're going into the sewers. >> That's what I'm saying.
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>> Nobody knows what they're doing. Nobody really knows what the situation is. It's
00:01:58
been a couple nights of them fig like seeing these videos. >> I really hate that.
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>> So, there So, that's going on. >> That's spooky. >> That's something that's pretty spooky.
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Uh so, don't do that. But also, um, on a totally different note, um, what you should do is pre-order The Butcher
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Legacy. >> Honestly, it's not even that much different of a note because your book
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has some weird [ __ ] going on. >> Exactly. So, there's that. And also, um, I don't know if you've noticed, some of
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you have, I'm doing a little uh, series, like a video series. >> I'm trying my hand at it. It's a lot of
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work. I don't know how to put these videos together. I'm Anybody who puts videos together and edits and does all
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this stuff all by themselves influencers in the wild. You have a [laughter] tough
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job. >> Props to you for being able to edit a video cuz it's hard. >> It is hard.
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>> Uh but yeah, so I'm doing a little video series where I'm going to go through the
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chapters of The Butcher Legacy and give you give you a little sneak peek of every chapter. Little hints Easter eggs.
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>> Yeah, Easter eggs. Exactly. >> So, keep a lookout for those. I'm putting them on TikTok and Instagram. Um
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I think a couple of people might have thought it had to do with um the same Slicer game that that Morbid is doing
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with >> Huntter Killer. Those are two different things just in case you were confused.
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>> So these are not like game pieces or anything like that. We'll do another video.
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>> Yeah, for sure. Um, so these are just keep a lookout for them. I'm calling them the evidence recovery series. So
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keep an eye out. >> I love it. It's so fun. It was a very good idea. >> It's been a really fun thing to do. Uh,
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and I'm trying to think if we have any other business. >> I think it starts now.
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>> I think it starts. >> Oh, wait. Also, pre-order the Salem Slicer if if you want that game. The
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game is so much fun. >> It's incredible. Yeah, it's really fun. >> A lot of people are getting theirs in
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the mail, like the ones that we sent out. And like our friends and family are so excited.
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>> I'm so excited to see everybody get them. Um, but yeah, I think that's it. >> Okay, it starts now.
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>> Now. >> All right, Carl, stop your timer. >> All right, starts now. All right, so
00:03:52
when we last left, you guys >> Yeah, you left us on a [ __ ] cliffhanger. >> I sure did because I talked about the
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Sutton report that was put together that was never made public. Only bits and pieces of it. I
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>> swear. Yeah, I think that's the weirdest thing ever. Um but one of the things
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that did come out from it was that Tommy Skakel lied about his whereabouts or or
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more his actions that night. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz remember he said he just like went inside and started a project that
00:04:20
didn't exist >> on Abraham Lincoln >> that was proved to not [laughter] exist. >> And the teachers were like nobody.
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>> But what else came out in this report was um some stuff about Michael Skakel.
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>> Interesting. I did not see that coming. When you said that, I said claw. >> Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Now, as private
00:04:39
investigators were digging into the Martha Moxley case, the state's attorney was doing their best to keep the press
00:04:44
and the public, you know, in the loop with regard to the newly reopened investigation. Among other things, John
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Solomon was eager to employ the latest technology in DNA cuz obviously that's coming out. That feels like it's going
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to open a million doors. >> Yeah, that's huge. >> They hope that was going to identify the
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suspect like bar none. The news that they might soon be able to identify the killer did prompt both Tommy and Michael
00:05:08
Skakel to have a change of heart with their initial stories. >> Oh. >> So that so the word comes out like,
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"Hey, maybe we could identify someone like we have DNA. We have this sudden report." They were like, "Actually, we'd
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love to tell you what we were actually doing that night." >> All righty. >> Um and they did admit to police that
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they lied about the night of the murder and they would like to offer new alibis.
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>> Okay. which obviously in and of itself does not identify them as murderers. >> It just doesn't look good
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>> because unfortunately they were teenagers at the time. So you have to look at it like that.
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>> Uh in Tommy's case, the alibi was more or less similar to what he had offered
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the first time he was interviewed, but he dropped the story about doing the project that didn't exist.
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>> The teachers were like, "Bud, you really got to stop this cuz we have no proof of
00:05:53
that. >> You're not doing a project on Abraham Lincoln is just not doing >> uh but he coped to being drunk at the
00:05:59
time." Okay, >> cuz remember they were young. They were like 15 years old at this point. They're
00:06:02
young. >> Michael's new alibi, on the other hand, was >> surprising cuz he had said he was at
00:06:10
another cousin's house, right? >> Yeah. So, like you just said, according to Michael, he returned from his
00:06:14
cousin's house around 11:00 p.m. Remember, >> but he didn't go to bed as he had previously stated before. He said he got
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home around 11:00 p.m. and he just went to bed. I thought that was a little cray
00:06:25
cray because like these kids all like to have a lot of fun and go around, you know.
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>> Now, this is a little shocking. >> Okay, >> what he did, he brought this forward.
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>> Okay. >> Uh instead, he claimed he wandered around the neighborhood looking into the bedroom windows of his
00:06:41
female neighbors. >> Oh. >> Until that's not even the shocking part. >> Oh. until he returned home and climbed
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the tree outside of Martha's window and masturbated in the tree. >> Oh, what the actual [ __ ]
00:06:58
>> Yeah, he just told investigators that. >> Yeah, he said that's what I was actually
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doing. >> And what' they do when they heard that? >> I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know
00:07:09
what their exact reactions were. >> How'd they proceed? I I imagine they said, "Oh,
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>> yeah." >> Oh, okay. >> The [ __ ] >> Um, so what made his new alibi so surprising wasn't just that it outed him
00:07:24
as a teenage peeping tom in a public masturbator. Like those are pretty [laughter]
00:07:30
>> that's a big deal. >> Like that's that's a lot. But >> not a public masturbator.
00:07:34
>> I think the more what's crazy is the more shocking thing was that he essentially placed himself at the scene
00:07:40
of the crime >> crime scene. Yeah. >> Making himself now, not his brother Tommy, the last person to maybe see
00:07:48
Martha alive. >> Okay. >> The new alibi wasn't just a bizarre twist. >> That's just not even an alibi. No,
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>> you can't call that an alibi. >> I guess it I mean, it is because it doesn't prove he murdered her.
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>> His alibi is that he was masturbating outside her bedroom window. >> I'm not out here saying it's a good
00:08:05
thing to be doing. >> [ __ ] But technically it's an al you're telling them where you were. But and it
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doesn't obviously make him just from that a murderer. >> No, just a creep. >> Just a creep. But what the bigger
00:08:19
problem there is like they were saying he placed himself at the scene of the crime essentially. So it's like that's
00:08:26
what makes it more like >> like sure that's an alibi but it's not a good scene of the crime.
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>> Yeah. It also called into question the original timeline and it raised new questions about the reliability of the
00:08:38
original investigation which was already >> yeah pretty bad >> shaky. Now within days of the murder
00:08:44
investigators had ruled Michael Skaggel out as a suspect. That was in the beginning based on the fact that he was
00:08:50
confirmed to have been at his cousin's house when they thought the murder occurred around 1000 p.m.
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>> Okay. >> He was they the cousins were like, "Yep, he was there." >> Yeah. >> But the only reason This is wild to me.
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The only reason investigators believe the murder occurred at 10 p.m. was not based on medical examiner evidence.
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>> Oh. >> Like it should be. >> Yep. >> They were basing it on reports from neighbors about the agitated barking
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dogs in the neighborhood >> that were barking at 10 p.m. >> Got to be [ __ ] kidding me.
00:09:22
>> Yeah. >> You That's bas That's the same as like eyewitness testimony. Like that's never
00:09:27
that's not that reliable. And it's actually even worse because I was going to say that place that on the same level
00:09:33
as eyewitness testimony. >> You're literally saying animals made noises >> at a time one night,
00:09:42
>> so someone must have been being murdered. >> And you're relying on people's memory of
00:09:46
what time that was, which like again, people have shaky memories. >> And just the fact that dogs bark.
00:09:54
>> Yeah, >> dogs bark. >> My dog barks for no [ __ ] reason. Sometimes >> my dog barks sometimes when they see
00:10:00
their own reflection in the window. >> Yep. >> My dog barks at my other dog when my
00:10:05
other dog is laying down and she wants to play. >> Yep. >> My dog barks sometimes when they fart.
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>> To bark. >> My dog burp. My dog barks when she farts, too. >> Sometimes it upsets them or the other
00:10:18
one barks when the other one farts. >> Dolores, when she farts, she she chases her butt and barks and I'm like, "Bitch,
00:10:24
that was you. >> That was you." It's almost like she's like mad at her butt for betraying her.
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>> That's the thing. Like dogs are awesome. >> Yeah, >> dogs are awesome, >> but they're going to do wy [ __ ] for no
00:10:33
reason, >> but they're barking at their own farts. So, it's like we're we're using them as
00:10:37
a forensic tool now. Like, what when did that happen? >> Yeah, they're not canine dogs, babe.
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>> That's insane to me to be like, "Well, dogs barked around 10 p.m., so that was
00:10:46
obviously when the murder happened." It's like, nope, I think they were just barking.
00:10:49
>> And again, like, not even to take the dogs out of it, you're relying on the neighbor saying what time that happened.
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That's no good. >> What's even worse with this is the medical examiner had never really agreed
00:11:00
with investigators stated time of death >> and they're they're the expert I would
00:11:03
say on >> the medical examiner. Yeah. They got the actual bi physiological evidence that
00:11:08
shows that this is when >> they had actually placed Martha's time of death anywhere between 9:30 p.m. and
00:11:15
500 a.m. >> That's a big window. It was only because investigators believed the local dogs to
00:11:21
be more reliable than the medical examiner essentially >> that they were able to rule Michael
00:11:26
Skagel out in the first place. That was the only reason he was ruled out. >> That is so
00:11:31
>> because he had an alibi for when the dogs were barking. >> That's crazy. >> Not when the medical examiner is saying
00:11:38
it could have occurred. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. Also, now that he'd admitted to
00:11:43
trying to trying to watch Martha through her window after he'd returned from his
00:11:47
cousin's home, >> Michael hadn't just ruled himself back in as a suspect. He'd effectively moved
00:11:53
himself to the top of the list. >> Yeah. You're masturbating outside of her window
00:11:57
>> and he's at the scene. >> Yeah. >> That's She was 200 ft from her house, right?
00:12:01
>> Like you're there. >> Yep. Now, although no one outside Sutton Associates knew it at the time, there
00:12:07
was a lot more that made Michael Skakel a strong suspect than just a bizarre new
00:12:12
alibi. And this was the Sutton report was like like their family hired that that law group. So, this is interesting.
00:12:20
>> Yeah. According to the Sutton report, because remember, we got little bits and
00:12:24
pieces of it. >> Yeah. Not the whole thing. At the quote, "At the very least, it is fair to say
00:12:28
Michael Skagel has, for whatever reason, often acted out in certain ways to arouse suspicion." Reportedly, Michael
00:12:35
once even confessed to the murder of Martha Moxley in a therapy session while a patient at the Elon treatment center.
00:12:42
>> Oh, [ __ ] >> In fact, while he was at the Elon School, Michael confessed multiple times
00:12:48
to murdering Martha Moxley in both group therapy settings and in private conversations.
00:12:54
>> Okay. Although he would later recant at least one of those confessions in an email correspondence with one of the
00:13:00
other students at Elon, the discovery of that information would have been damning
00:13:05
if it had been made public and it wasn't at the time. >> That's so tough. I know of like therapy.
00:13:10
>> Yeah, you have to be careful with that stuff. When he was informed of his son's
00:13:14
confession at the Elon School, Rush and Skakel immediately pulled the plug on the entire investigation, paying any
00:13:21
remaining fees and ending multiple years of work. >> Huh. >> Since everyone involved in the private
00:13:27
investigation had signed a confidentiality agreement, >> I wish you guys could see my face right
00:13:32
now cuz my face is saying, >> "What? >> What?" Uh well, all the people involved in the private investigation had signed
00:13:39
a confidentiality agreement, so they were all prohibited from disclo disclosing any information contained in
00:13:44
their report to law enforcement or to the public. >> And NDA, brother, >> once again, it seemed that Skel's money
00:13:50
and power had kind of shielded his family from any responsibility. But there was one thing he hadn't counted
00:13:56
on. >> Stop what? It was true that every investigator on the case had signed a confidentiality agreement,
00:14:01
>> but >> but the young employees who'd been tasked with organizing the information
00:14:06
for the investigators had not been required to sign anything. [laughter] >> When that young man, one young man who
00:14:15
shall not be named, >> he has remained anonymous learned that the report and Skel's confession to
00:14:20
murder were being shelved and would not see the light of day. He stole the report and sent it to Dominic Dunn. Not
00:14:26
all heroes wear capes. >> Because he had seen Dominic Dunn talking about the case on the news and he was
00:14:31
like, I think you should have this. >> Wow. That's always like my favorite part of a story when one person is just like,
00:14:37
I think you should look at this. >> I love when one person just is like >> Dominic Dunn had built a respectable
00:14:43
career for himself as a writer covering crime, but he al wasn't exactly an investigative journalist at the time.
00:14:49
like which >> he actually shifted a lot after the murder of his daughter, >> which is what was required if the Sutton
00:14:55
report was going to be put to good use. You need an investigative journalist of some sort.
00:14:59
>> So rather than pursue the story himself, Dunn forwarded the report to former Los
00:15:04
Angeles police detective turned author Mark Ferman. Okay. >> Whom Dunn didn't know personally, but he
00:15:10
respected the work he had done. >> Okay. Now, although he would eventually make a name for himself as an author and
00:15:15
journalist, Ferman first became a household name. Some people might be like, "Wait a minute.
00:15:20
>> The name sounded familiar." >> He was he became a household name across America during the OJ Simpson trial.
00:15:26
>> Oh, okay. >> In 1994, he was an LAPD detective and he investigated the murder of Simpson's
00:15:31
wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend Ron Goldman >> and was the investigator who found the
00:15:37
notorious bloody glove. >> Oh [ __ ] During the trial though, several witnesses for the defense
00:15:42
testified that Ferman had previously made racist statements in their presence, leading the defense to charge
00:15:48
that Furman had tampered with evidence in order to obtain a conviction. Uh despite there being no evidence to
00:15:54
suggest the glove had been planted by anyone, the controversy and documentation of you know his past
00:16:00
essentially the the remarks he had made, it made him a pariah everywhere like in
00:16:05
law enforcement you know he retired in 1995 the next day the next day the very next day the next year and he did write
00:16:13
Murder in Brentwood about the Simpson murder in the trial. Oh >> okay. >> Murder in Brentwood had really impressed
00:16:19
Dominic Dunn. Um, and so when he came across the Sutton report, Ferman was the first person that came to Dun's mind.
00:16:26
Okay. Because he was like, "He knows how to do this shit." >> Yeah. >> Now, after reading the Sutton report,
00:16:31
Ferman placed a call to Dorothy Moxley, who by then had moved to New Jersey to live near her son.
00:16:38
>> Okay. Unlike Dunn, who'd written a fictional account of the case, Furman wanted to write a non-fiction account
00:16:44
and not only intended to emphasize the countless mistakes made by law enforcement, but he also wanted to
00:16:50
identify Martha's killer in this book. >> Uh he later said, "I felt like I had a
00:16:55
heavy burden on my shoulders. I just told this woman who's been waiting 23 years for some solution to her
00:17:01
daughter's homicide that I could solve it. So, I had no choice then. I actually had to go out and solve it." Now, with
00:17:07
Dorothy's consent, it's a lot to task yourself with. >> Now, with Dorothy's consent, Ferman got
00:17:13
to work digging into the case, but immediately ran into problems when word of his intentions reached the local
00:17:18
police. >> Ah, sensing that Furman was planning to smear them in the investigation with his
00:17:24
book, Ferman was shut out by local law enforcement and claims he he claims that he was threatened with arrest if he went
00:17:32
near any residents of Bell Haven. >> Allegedly. Allegedly, that's what is claimed.
00:17:37
>> Fortunately, he soon found an ally in retired Greenwich detective Steve Carol,
00:17:43
>> the original lead on the Moxley case. >> Okay. >> He later said his absence of ego at not
00:17:49
being able to solve this case was a great contribution because he admitted things that I think other detectives
00:17:54
wouldn't have. >> Okay. >> Which is like really impressive that Steve Carol I like that he said his lack
00:17:59
of ego at not being able to solve this case. Like he didn't go into this being like whatever we did all we could and
00:18:04
this isn't my fault. Like he was like no I think we [ __ ] up along the way and that's solved.
00:18:08
>> You have to be willing to admit fault. >> Yeah. Once Dorothy Moxley gave her consent for Carol to speak with Ferman,
00:18:14
the former detective became Ferman's greatest asset as he attempted to navigate a community that was very
00:18:20
vocally opposed to his presence. Now, the problem with the Moxley case is that regardless of how many mistakes
00:18:26
were made in the investigation, the fact remained that there also was little for
00:18:31
investigators to go like work with here. Journalist Joel Lang wrote, "As damning
00:18:35
as the evidence may seem, it proves little. >> Anyone might have," and this is true,
00:18:42
you have to look at first when you first look at this, you say, "Oh my god, how could it how could you not?" And it's
00:18:48
true. It's It looks damning. It does. When you really pull apart the pieces though, you go, "Well, you have to think
00:18:53
of every part of this >> cuz anybody could have taken >> anyone might have dropped the club
00:18:57
outside and anyone might have picked it up." >> Who knows if one of them had just had
00:19:03
the club, dropped it outside somewhere, someone found somebody stumbled upon it.
00:19:07
>> No one the police interviewed said that they saw Tommy with the golf club. >> Okay.
00:19:12
>> So, there's just that. And I'm just that just from like a purely like sure perspective. You know what I mean? Like
00:19:18
sure, somebody is it likely I don't know. >> Yeah. >> You know, like it's just But you have to
00:19:23
think of these things. >> It's too bad they weren't able to get any prints off of it.
00:19:27
>> I know. But I don't know. Maybe somebody was wearing gloves. Who knows? >> Maybe.
00:19:32
>> Now, in fact, even with all the circumstantial evidence pointing towards the Skakel house, investigators still
00:19:38
had the wrong person as their prime suspect in the case. Of course, the only people who knew that were contractually
00:19:44
bound to secrecy cuz remember, they were going after Tommy, >> right? But Ferman may have had the one piece of
00:19:51
evidence that would break the case wide open and finally shed light on the identity of Martha's killer.
00:19:56
>> Okay. >> In the spring of 1998, Ferman's book, Murder in Greenwich, Who Killed Martha
00:20:01
Moxley was published, much to the consternation and very much to the eyeire of the investigators at the
00:20:07
Greenwich Police Department and in the state's Attorney's Office. In the book, Ferman laid out the facts as they were
00:20:13
known, paying particular attention to the myriad of mistakes made by investigators, and asserts the widely
00:20:19
accepted theory that a wealthy and powerful family had stymied the investigation from the start.
00:20:25
>> I like that word, stymied. >> But the real bombshell was that Ferman took the rare step of naming the person
00:20:31
he believed was responsible for Martha's murder. >> That's bold. >> He named Michael Skakel.
00:20:37
>> Interesting. You got to be >> you got to have balls to do that because [sighs]
00:20:44
>> what for so many reasons. >> Yeah, Murder and Greenwich was an immediate bestseller and it also
00:20:49
attracted scathing criticism. Sure. >> Particularly from those Ferman sought to undermine with the book.
00:20:55
>> Uh like Frank Gar, a former Greenwich detective who was working for the state
00:21:00
at the time the book was published said, "Ferman has the luxury of not having to
00:21:04
back up anything he says. So he can name anybody he wants and he can say anything
00:21:08
he wants in that book which I was like technically you can't. >> No, >> not if he doesn't want to be sued.
00:21:12
>> I was gonna say. >> But Greenwich Police Chief Peter Robin shared a similar sentiment about the
00:21:17
work telling a reporter his real intent was to make money. I don't think he was necessarily attempting to solve a crime.
00:21:23
Like damn. Okay. So relying heavily on the Sutton report and interviews conducted with Michael Skakel's
00:21:29
classmates at the Elon School, Ferman laid out a very plausible case against Skakel while also exposing how the case
00:21:35
had been so badly botched by investigators >> in the first place. >> Mhm. >> Furman told a reporter, "I can find very
00:21:42
little they did correctly in the investigation. I don't want to be smug or arrogant about this, but I obviously
00:21:48
know much more than they do." >> Dang. Like [laughter] [ __ ] Now, on June 18th, just one month after the
00:21:54
publication of his book, Connecticut's Chief Court Administrator Aaron Mint announced that a one-person grand jury
00:22:01
comprised of Superior Court Justice George Thim was being called upon to review the evidence against Michael
00:22:08
Skaggel. >> Never in my life have I heard of a oneperson grand jury. That's the And
00:22:13
also, oh, so suddenly >> everybody doesn't like this book and they think like >> everybody thinks the book is a bunch a
00:22:20
croc of [ __ ] and all of a sudden they're like >> we are going to bring him [laughter] in
00:22:23
front of a grand jury. It's like wait which one is it? >> Make that make sense. >> Like interesting. Now the announcement
00:22:29
of the grand jury came as a surprise. Not only because like you said it consisted of one man, but also because
00:22:36
>> it's not so [laughter] grand. >> It doesn't seem grand. I don't know who George is, but he's got to be real
00:22:40
grand. >> I'm sure he's grand. like I'm sure he's a great guy, but >> but also because Connecticut does not
00:22:45
require a grand jury before felony charges can be filed. >> Oh, >> according to Connecticut lawyer Norman
00:22:51
Pattis, grand juries in Connecticut are only used for political purposes. Having
00:22:56
a grand jury provides insulation for a prosecutor in a politically sensitive case
00:23:01
>> because the decision to indict is made by a panel of anonymous citizens >> or just one
00:23:06
>> or just George >> or just [laughter] Grandmaster George. >> Just George. Also, I was like, I'm sure
00:23:11
he's a great guy. I really went out on a limb there. >> Who knows? >> Who? I don't know, George.
00:23:16
>> That he's a great guy, but I don't know. >> As a gal, you can never say you're sure
00:23:19
a man is great. >> No. So, I just I'd like to recant that. >> I I stay over here saying, "I don't
00:23:24
know, George." >> I hope that he's great is what I should have said. >> So, another way of saying all this is,
00:23:29
in other words, the district attorney can't be blamed if the accus isn't indicted because it was the grand jury
00:23:34
that made the decision, not the prosecutor. >> All right? So, it's just to keep them
00:23:38
from the I didn't do it. >> To anyone who had been following this case, it looked like whether
00:23:43
investigators liked it or not, the publication of Murder and Greenwich had managed to break the case somewhat.
00:23:48
Yeah. >> Like at least move something along, >> right? >> But when he was asked about the matter,
00:23:53
Detective Frank Gar dismissed the suggestion that the book had anything to do with the filing.
00:23:58
>> So then what? >> He said, "We've talked to hundreds of people and gathered some information
00:24:02
that was previously unknown. So, we reached a point where having a grand jury was an option.
00:24:06
>> The books added interest to the public and the media, but they had no impact on
00:24:10
the investigation. >> Was it like public pressure after people read the book? >> Whatever you say.
00:24:15
>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Sure. >> For decades, Martha Moxley's friends and family had desperately sought answers to
00:24:22
her remember brutal >> brutal murder, but were just again stymied. Since you like that word, they
00:24:30
were stymied at every turn. >> Yep. Now, after more than 20 years, it looked like Martha might finally get the
00:24:36
justice that she deserved. >> Of course, nothing in this case is straightforward at all.
00:24:41
>> No. >> And there was no reason to believe that would change. >> Oh. >> Uh, least of all just
00:24:48
Well, and least of all because of the publication of this book, you know. >> Yeah. So on July 12th, 1998, the one-man
00:24:56
grand jury proceeding, >> George, >> it began in Bridgeport where Justice George Thim began hearing testimony and
00:25:03
reviewing the evidence in the case. Among those seated in the gallery were Dorothy and John Moxley, who were
00:25:09
accompanied by former Greenwich detective Daniel Hickman. >> Hickman told a reporter, "I'm very glad
00:25:15
we're doing this. Glad we're investigating this matter a little further. I hope something comes out good
00:25:20
comes out of this for the sake of the family and the community." Yeah, >> given the number of times the Skakel
00:25:25
family had kind of thwarted investigators attempts to get answers into the Moxley case, it should come as
00:25:30
no surprise that the grand jury hearing was pretty similarly frustrating and it ultimately dragged on for 18 months.
00:25:37
>> Wow. Holy [ __ ] >> During that time, the majority of the Sko family members who were expected to
00:25:42
testify publicly stated their intent to skip the hearing. >> Is that allowed? I guess Rushton Skagel
00:25:50
was particularly adamant in his refusal, telling reporters, "I wasn't there personally. I was hunting when the
00:25:55
slaying happened, so he saw no reason why he should be there." >> Okay. I wonder I don't know if I'm just
00:26:02
like making this up, but I wonder if you could be held in contempt of court for not showing up to testify when you're
00:26:06
called upon. I would think so. >> I looked at Debbiey's just like shrugging [laughter] and being like,
00:26:11
"Yeah, usually right." >> Like, you would think. >> I would think. >> You would think.
00:26:15
>> Yeah, that's typical. It's It's interesting. >> Yeah. Okay. >> But others who refused to testify or
00:26:21
otherwise attempted to stonewall the prosecution uh including Sutton Associates detective Willis Krebs and
00:26:27
Elon School owner Joseph Reachi. >> Okay. >> Uh Krebs cited attorney client privilege
00:26:34
as his reason for not divulging the names of those interviewed during the investigation.
00:26:38
>> I mean that makes sense, I guess. >> But the judge rejected the claim and >> it doesn't [laughter] it doesn't make
00:26:43
sense. The judge rejected the claim and Krebs was compelled to release the names. Uh Reichi's refusal on the other
00:26:49
hand proved a more challenging matter cuz he's the Elon school. >> In his case, >> in the in his case, he cited doctor
00:26:58
patient confidentiality as his reason for declining to testify or release information about Michael's
00:27:05
time at Elon, >> which that's a lot more. >> Unlike Yeah. Unlike Skakel's contract
00:27:09
with Sutton, the mutually assured privacy between a doctor and their patient is taken very seriously in the
00:27:16
legal system. >> Yeah. >> Um Skakel's lawyer, David Grudberg, said it completely undercuts that privilege
00:27:22
if you can change the rules after the fact. In response, the prosecution argued that the confession quote had
00:27:29
nothing to do with Skakel's treatment or any illness, therefore should not be privileged information,
00:27:34
>> which I can get that >> which if you're saying he was talking in private conversations with like fellow
00:27:38
students, >> I would think yeah, that wouldn't have anything to do with his treatment.
00:27:44
>> Deb Deb has just informed us that she she's not positive, but she said cuz she
00:27:47
doesn't know Connecticut law, but she said knows mass law. There is the possibility that Rushton Skakel
00:27:52
especially being their the father >> would not be compelled to testify because of like the parent child. It's
00:27:59
kind of like a spousal privilege. >> Um so that makes sense I suppose. >> Yeah. No, I can see that.
00:28:05
>> I'm interested though cuz obviously it was more than him that refused. So I'm
00:28:08
like what did everybody else say? >> Yeah. Now again they're say they're claiming that his confessions Michael's
00:28:14
confessions had nothing to do with his treatment. So that's why [laughter] they should be allowed to have the doctor
00:28:18
testify. >> Ultimately, the judge sided with the defense and any statements Michael made
00:28:23
while at Elon were deemed inadmiss inadmissible. Why is that hard to say? >> Interesting.
00:28:28
>> Yeah. Finally, in January 2000, the grand jury ruled that even without the incriminating statements made at Elon,
00:28:36
there was sufficient evidence to charge Michael Skagel with the murder of Martha
00:28:40
Moxley. That's without the confession. >> I was just going to say, okay, so then
00:28:43
what's the evidence? But in an odd twist, >> this is the twistiest case I've ever
00:28:48
>> The arrest warrant in any associated documentation related to the case would not list Skakel by name as he was a
00:28:55
juvenile when the murder was committed. >> Okay. >> In response to news of the indictment,
00:28:59
Skakel's lawyer, Michael Sherman, told reporters, "If he's arrested, he's going to plead not guilty, come to court, and
00:29:05
we'll go to trial. He's innocent. He has nothing to do with this murder. This is
00:29:09
not a case that will result in a plea bargain." >> Okay. Now, as expected, on January 20th,
00:29:15
an arrest warrant was issued for Michael Skakel, who surrendered at the Greenwich
00:29:19
Police Department that afternoon, where he spent roughly 30 minutes before being
00:29:23
released on $500,000 of bond. >> Yeah, >> I that's shocking. >> For those who lived in Greenwich since
00:29:31
the murder occurred, it was a moment they never thought would come. Bell Haven resident Martha Mckentry said, "A
00:29:37
lot of people would like to see closure. If an arrest is heading towards that, then I think that's a relief for
00:29:41
everyone." >> Yeah. The arrest was followed by the usual cries of innocence from, you know,
00:29:46
Skakel's lawyer, Michael Sherman. But Skakel himself seemed interested only in protesting the arrest directly to
00:29:52
Dorothy Moxley herself. >> Oh. >> With Sherman's encouragement, allegedly, >> his lawyer.
00:29:58
>> Yeah. Michael reached out to Dorothy. Much to her surprise and uh disappointment,
00:30:06
>> she later said, "What he said to me was, Dorothy, I feel your pain, but you've
00:30:11
got the wrong guy." >> And she says, "I was incensed that he would call me Dorothy. I'm sorry, but I
00:30:18
do believe I deserve some more respect than that. He should have called me Mrs. Moxley, and he shouldn't have talked to
00:30:23
me. It wasn't the right thing to do." >> Yeah. There's so much wrong with that. Call her mother.
00:30:29
>> Yeah. like well like exactly what she said. Put some respect on her name. It's Mrs.
00:30:36
Moxley. >> And she said he shouldn't have called me at all. >> Shouldn't have called her at all. And
00:30:40
the fact that he didn't and said I I can feel your pain. No, you can't. >> You don't know a mother's pain whose
00:30:46
daughter was slaughtered >> 200 feet from her home. >> 15year-old daughter. Like no, you can't
00:30:52
feel her pain. Don't ever say that. >> Yeah. >> That's nuts. That whole entire decision
00:30:56
is nuts from start to finish. Now, two weeks later, on February 8th, Michael Skaggel was arraigned on one count of
00:31:03
seconddegree murder in juvenile court. After reviewing the evidence and the circumstances surrounding the case, the
00:31:09
juvenile court judge had the case transferred to the criminal division of the superior court, ending the period in
00:31:15
which Skakel's name was withheld from any official documents. >> Oh, because now he's an adult. Now, the
00:31:20
case was preceded by the usual round of pre-trial hearings, but the prosecution was dealt a significant blow on August
00:31:27
7th, 2001 when their star witness, former Elon student Gregory Coleman, was found dead from an apparent drug
00:31:35
overdose. Coleman was one of the two students who testified to the grand jury that Michael
00:31:41
had confessed to killing Martha while at Elon, and his testimony was key to securing a conviction.
00:31:50
I just wanted to let that hang in the room for a minute. >> Fortunately, the judge allowed the
00:31:54
prosecution to present Coleman's deposition at trial in lie of his testimony. >> Okay.
00:31:59
>> But the lack of his presence was a major source of frustration, obviously. >> Now, Skaggel's trial began on May 7th,
00:32:06
2002 at the county courthouse in Norwok. As expected, the trial had drawn a ton of people, like a huge crowd of
00:32:14
observers and journalists, many of whom were hoping for an appearance of like a rich and famous attendee at the trial.
00:32:20
>> Yeah. >> And they weren't disappointed. I guess as early as the first day, many members
00:32:25
of the Skakel and Kennedy families were in attendance to support Michael. >> Including his cousins, Robert F. Kennedy
00:32:32
Jr. >> Shut up. >> And Douglas Kennedy. >> I didn't even know there was a Douglas.
00:32:38
Yeah, this is so many of them. >> I knew about >> the Kennedys are far reaching.
00:32:42
>> Uh Dominic Dunn said, "The thing that I've always found so curious about the Kennedys support of Michael is that
00:32:48
Michael wrote a treatment for a book in which he says absolutely terrible things
00:32:52
about his cousins, the Kennedys. And yet Bobby Kennedy Jr. was up here hugging him and supporting him.
00:32:58
>> Public public appearances, babe. >> Yeah. In his opening statement, prosecutor Jonathan Benedict laid out
00:33:04
the the state's case against Michael, stating with their belief that both Michael and Tommy had been vying for
00:33:10
Martha's attention. And while she had no real interest in either of them, she clearly favored Tommy a little over his
00:33:17
brother. Okay. And I think that >> based on her diary entries in her diary where like Michael was mad because she
00:33:23
was quote unquote leading him on. >> Yeah. He seemed he seemed kind of protective over his brother.
00:33:27
>> Yeah. And he seemed like Yeah. Now, it was the state's assertion that after the
00:33:31
group of friends had gone their separate ways that night, Michael returned from his cousin's house and coaxed Martha
00:33:37
outside and made a romantic or physical over overture, okay, >> to her. You know, when Martha rejected
00:33:43
Michael's advances, he became physical and eventually attacked her with the golf club.
00:33:48
>> Okay. >> Now, and I want to claim say this again that this was the prosecutor Jonathan
00:33:55
Benedict's like theory. Yeah, it was the argument saying that's what happened, >> right?
00:34:00
>> In his statement, Benedict acknowledged that it was incumbent upon the state to
00:34:04
prove not only that Michael was a killer, but that he had intended to kill Martha that night. To that end, the
00:34:09
prosecutor used a large projection in the courtroom to show the jury and observers the crime scene photographs,
00:34:15
showing the extent of the brutality Martha had suffered before her death. >> And he said, and I agree with him, I can
00:34:22
think of no photos more compelling of substantiating an intent to kill. Yeah, >> there was no way whoever did that to
00:34:29
Martha did not intend to kill her. >> No. >> No. As for how the case was finally
00:34:34
broken at the time, Benedict told the jury, "Sometimes some people simply can't keep a secret. That, as you will
00:34:40
see, is how things eventually unraveled for Michael Skaggel." >> In his client's defense, Michael Sherman
00:34:46
refuted the state's claims and their theory, arguing that after years of bad police work and pressure to solve the
00:34:52
case, investigators decided to just pin the murder on Michael. Okay. >> He said, "The case that we have is based
00:34:58
loosely on a very shaky house of cards and mostly wild cards and a few jokers as well."
00:35:04
>> Okay, let's not get super theatrical [laughter] with it. >> I'm not out here trying to judge uh
00:35:09
statements in a courtroom. >> I'm always out here trying to judge statements in a courtroom.
00:35:12
>> That made me go, [laughter] >> "Yeah, that's not a good >> cuz you could have just ended it at like
00:35:16
>> a shaky house of cards." >> Cuz I was nodding. I was like, "Yeah, I kind of jokers."
00:35:22
>> I love it. Mostly wild cards. Maybe a few jokers. I'd be like, "Nope. Try >> it. You over it.
00:35:28
>> Run it again, Michael. Run it again." >> He didn't run that with like Yeah. anyone.
00:35:32
>> He didn't read that for anyone, I feel. >> No. >> Read that in front of someone and see if
00:35:36
they go [laughter] >> that's like, >> "Yeah, I don't like it." >> Now, the state's case against Michael
00:35:41
was entirely circumstantial and it hinged very significantly on the testimony of Gregory Coleman, right?
00:35:46
>> Who'd heard Skel's confession, but he >> passed away, right? >> Yes. Coleman's death before the trial
00:35:53
was a big problem for Benedict. However, several weeks into the trial, the prosecutor was contacted by Jennifer
00:35:59
Peas, another former Elon student who offered to testify and corroborate Coleman's statement that Michael not
00:36:06
only confessed to the murder, but also that he believed, and I quote, he was going to get away with murder because he
00:36:13
was a Kennedy. [sighs and gasps] So, this is what Jennifer Peas was saying that she could back up. Uh she told the
00:36:19
jury that Coleman had confided in her that he thought Michael Skakel was quote sick and that Skakel had quote beat some
00:36:26
girl's head in and killed her with a golf club. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Yeah. The testimony from Jennifer Peas
00:36:34
went a long way to cooperating Coleman's earlier statements and those of his widow who testified prior to Peace.
00:36:41
>> Wow. On June 3rd, the prosecution and defense gave their final statements before the jury retired to deliberate.
00:36:47
>> That's today. >> Oh my god. That's I'm not kidding, guys. We do not purpose. >> Today is June 3rd, though. That's so
00:36:56
weird. >> What the [ __ ] >> This happens to us so often. I don't know. I had to stop you before you guys.
00:37:02
I swear on everything. We do not do this on purpose. Like, we a lot of times we're supposed to record
00:37:09
earlier than we do. >> Yeah. And then we don't. And when we do record, it ends up falling on the day.
00:37:13
>> Yeah, because we were gonna record this yesterday, but then we didn't. >> Yeah.
00:37:17
>> So, >> that's weird. [ __ ] That's weird. >> That's weird. Okay. Wow. Well, on June
00:37:22
3rd, the prosecution and defense gave their final statements before the jury retired to the deliberate. In his
00:37:28
closing remarks, Jonathan Benedict focused on the sheer brutality of the crime and Skakel's sense of
00:37:34
untouchability afforded to him by his family's wealth and power. >> He said, this is really graphic, by the
00:37:40
way. Okay. He said, "The act of stabbing her through the neck from one side through the other is the most emphatic
00:37:46
evidence of pure hatred, rage, and intent to kill." >> Mhm. >> Now, in his final argument, Michael
00:37:52
Sherman was blunt and simple. >> He didn't practice this one either. >> Good morning. He didn't do it. He didn't
00:38:00
do it. He doesn't know who did. He wasn't there when the crimes were committed, and he never confessed.
00:38:05
That's the whole case. Babe, that's not going to convince me of anything. That's just going to convince
00:38:11
me you didn't have your morning coffee. >> Yeah, that the [ __ ] >> I I feel like you you should have done
00:38:17
this earlier. >> Yeah. >> Like I feel like this is one of those that you were like, I did this before
00:38:21
breakfast. Like that was it. >> Just threw that one together. >> Yeah, that's a rough.
00:38:26
>> But then he just used the rest of it. So that was his like here's what I'm going
00:38:29
to >> here's my argument. >> He didn't do it. He didn't do it. He doesn't know who did. He wasn't there.
00:38:33
He never confessed. That's it. >> Are you going to tell me why though? And then the rest of the time he just used
00:38:38
to attack the prosecution, the witnesses, and the investigators for what he alleged was a concerted effort
00:38:44
to frame Michael. He said, "I have to tell you, this is the worstrun conspiracy I've ever seen."
00:38:50
>> Wow. >> Now, the jury deliberated for 4 days before finally coming out on June 8th,
00:38:56
my [clears throat] birthday. >> Hey. To find Michael Skakel guilty of the murder of Martha Moxley.
00:39:00
>> Oh, bad day for Michael. Now, when the verdict was read, Skakel swayed slightly
00:39:04
and shook his head in disbelief. From somewhere behind him, a member of the Skakel family shouted, "Oh my god."
00:39:11
Martha's family, on the other hand, was very happy with the jury's decision. >> You wait that long for justice for your
00:39:17
daughter. >> Dorothy told a group of reporters, "This whole thing was about Martha."
00:39:21
>> Yeah. >> I feel so blessed and so overwhelmed. This is Martha's day. I hope people
00:39:25
remember that. >> Oh. Now, when asked about the verdict his book had seemingly helped secure at
00:39:31
the time, Mark Ferman praised the jury. He said, "They were attentive. They gave
00:39:35
away nothing. They made no mistakes. Even when I talked to them, they said they were of one mind very early on that
00:39:42
he was guilty." Now, in late August, Skel went back to the Norwok court for sentencing. And when asked whether he
00:39:49
had anything to say for himself, Skel went on the offensive. He attacked his accusers and repeatedly professed his
00:39:55
innocence. Before passing sentence, Judge John Cavanooki's address to the court was pretty broad, just saying,
00:40:03
"For the last 25 years or more, a period well into his adult life, the defendant
00:40:07
has been living a lie about his guilt. Most importantly, this defendant has accepted no responsibility. He has
00:40:13
expressed no personal remorse to this present day. All of this persuades me to impose a sentence which on balance is
00:40:20
substantial." And with that, he sentenced Skakel to 20 years to life to be served at the Garner Correctional
00:40:26
Institution in New Town, Connecticut. Okay. Now, his appeals began almost immediately after the sentence. In 2004,
00:40:33
the Connecticut Supreme Court heard his claims that among other things, his constitutional rights were violated when
00:40:40
the state prosecuted him for a crime in which the statute of limitations had expired. Hm.
00:40:45
>> The argument depended largely on Skakel having been underage when the murder was
00:40:50
committed and the judge in juvenile court had aired in transferring the case to criminal court. In their conclusion,
00:40:56
the justices upheld the lower court's ruling, noting if the trial court aired in their actions, the defendant has not
00:41:03
established harm. Okay? So, they just kept it. They were like, "No." >> [snorts]
00:41:07
>> Now, in subsequent appeals, Skakel's defense team made a number of claims of improper conduct from claims of
00:41:14
prosecutorial misconduct to the credibility of witness testimony and beyond. >> Okay.
00:41:19
>> Each case was considered by the higher courts and rejected on the merits. Now,
00:41:23
then in 2013, Skel launched another appear appeal for a new trial. this time arguing that his original trial
00:41:30
attorney, Michael Sherman, was incompetent and was more interested in building his own reputation and
00:41:36
celebrity than he was in defending his client. >> Okay. >> Martha Moxley's friends, family, and
00:41:42
neighbors waited more than 25 years for her to see justice. And it felt like >> it had finally been found.
00:41:49
>> Yeah. >> But in November 2013, Judge Thomas Bishop agreed with Skakel's complaint
00:41:55
and ordered a new trial. >> Oh. [sighs and gasps] In his conclusion, Judge Bishop noted
00:42:00
that Michael Sherman, quote, was in a myriad of ways ineffective, and as such, there was no way to be certain that the
00:42:06
jury was acting on the best information available. >> Okay. >> To Martha's family, who had been
00:42:12
struggling through a frustrating investigation and decades of uncertainty in trials, the reversal was a massive
00:42:19
disappointment. >> Of course, it was, >> but one that was not entirely unexpected, unfortunately.
00:42:24
>> Yeah. >> Given the extent of Skaggel's resources. Mhm. >> Uh Dorothy Moxley told reporters after
00:42:30
Skel was released on bail pending a new trial. I guess I knew that the day would
00:42:35
come and she said it would have made my life much easier for this not to happen.
00:42:40
>> Oh, >> that must be >> I can't even like come up with how that would feel to have it like finally this
00:42:47
is over. We can start healing. >> Ever really believe it's true. >> But then it's just reversed. And that's
00:42:52
the thing. They And they were It's like holding your breath, waiting for the moment.
00:42:57
>> Like because she believed that they got it right. >> Yeah. >> But she never believed that it would
00:43:02
hold because she knows >> they have infinite resources. >> Now, like Dorothy Moxley, the
00:43:08
prosecution was ready when the reversal happened and had already started preparing for a retrial.
00:43:13
>> Okay. >> Fortunately, however, the prosecution wouldn't have to go that route. In 2016,
00:43:18
the Connecticut Supreme Court overruled the lower court and concluded that Skakel had in fact been given a fair
00:43:24
trial, even if he didn't feel as though the lawyer provided the best possible defense.
00:43:29
>> Okay. >> Uh, one of the justices wrote in their concurrence, "Sherman's defense need not
00:43:33
have been the best decision or even a good one. It need only fall within the wide range of reasonable decisions that
00:43:38
a defense attorney might make." >> Okay. To those who'd been watching the case from day one, the state supreme
00:43:44
court's decision seemed like an attempt to correct the previous injustice. >> But there wasn't much time to celebrate.
00:43:51
[snorts] >> Okay, this is up and down and up and down. In fact, despite having reinstated
00:43:57
the conviction, the question of whether Michael Sherman provided adequate representation would be argued back and
00:44:03
forth in the state supreme court for two more years until May 2018 when the court
00:44:09
ultimately reversed their original decision, their earlier decision, and agreed with Skakel's complaint that his
00:44:16
lawyer had been ineffective and thus he was originally deprived of a fair trial.
00:44:21
>> Okay. From the moment he was arrested in 1991, nearly everyone in Greenwich, Connecticut, watched and waited to see
00:44:29
how Michael Skakel's wealth and power would possibly help him in this scenario. They figured it was just a
00:44:36
foregone conclusion that it was going to come into play. >> Yeah. >> To the shock of many, that proved
00:44:42
ineffective when a jury found him guilty and a judge sentenced him to spend the rest of his life in prison. Mhm.
00:44:48
>> Securing Skakel's conviction in a lengthy sentence was a major victory for the prosecution who had to again contend
00:44:54
with really poor police work, missing evidence, the death of their star witness mid-trial.
00:44:59
>> Y >> but in truth, his conviction was just never a sure bet. >> Mhm. >> Uh the case there was a lot of
00:45:05
circumstantial stuff and there was a there was a lot of time between the crime and when the trial occurred. There
00:45:13
was just a lot that were >> a lot working against them. >> Yeah. Now that Skakel had once again managed
00:45:19
to win a new trial and was out on bail, the district attorney needed to decide whether they could feasibly secure the
00:45:24
same verdict nearly 30 years later. >> With many of their witnesses having passed away or simply forgotten the
00:45:32
important parts of their testimony cuz they're getting older, right? >> That's I don't remember 30 years ago.
00:45:38
>> No. And it's you can't necessarily rely on somebody's memory from 30 years ago
00:45:42
as you're on a jury. >> And everybody's memory is different. It's like I don't have a great memory.
00:45:47
>> Like my friend like Deb Debb will say things that are like remember when this
00:45:50
happened? I'm like oh [ __ ] Yeah. Like or I'll just be like no I don't remember
00:45:54
that. Like my brain my memory is just like weird. I remember weird [ __ ] I don't remember good [ __ ]
00:45:59
>> And it's like that. So you just can't be sure. >> Mhm. But in the end, Chief States
00:46:04
Attorney Richard Cullen Jello looked at the potential battle of a new trial and determined that retrying Michael Skakel
00:46:12
simply wasn't a good use of the state's resources. >> I hate when they say that. Like I get
00:46:17
what they're saying, but I just hate how it sounds. >> He said, "I believe the state cannot
00:46:21
prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore, the state is going to enter a null pros, which means to be
00:46:28
unwilling to pursue." Oh, >> once it was formally entered in 2021, the null pros resulted in a discharge of
00:46:37
the murder charge against Michael Skaggel. >> So, he was never necessarily proven
00:46:41
innocent. They were just like, "We think you did this, but we can't prove it." >> Basically, we just don't think we can
00:46:45
prove you guilty again. >> It's almost like what happened with the West Memphis 3. I know that's like a
00:46:51
whole different process. like a little that's more we're not saying what it's like basically they can't they they just
00:47:00
say that they did it. >> Mhm. >> And the state will let them go and that means they can't sue the state.
00:47:07
>> Oh, >> that's what it means with the West Memphis. That's an Alfred plea. >> Yeah.
00:47:12
>> This is them being like we just don't think putting resources to retrying you
00:47:16
will get us the conviction, >> but we still think you did it. But like, and I don't even know. I don't even know
00:47:22
if it's we still think you did it. I think it's just like >> we don't think we have we're not going
00:47:27
to put the resources forward because we don't think we could get a conviction again.
00:47:31
>> Wow. >> So, you will be released. >> Um, so although, so he was a free man once again.
00:47:38
>> Okay. >> Although it is possible that Skaggel could be charged again and taken to
00:47:42
trial. That is a thing. in the absence of the, you know, any new compelling evidence of his guilt, it seems pretty
00:47:49
unlikely because nothing has come out since then that points to him. >> Yeah. >> Regardless of the prosecutor's decision,
00:47:57
uh Dorothy Skakel remained convinced >> that they got it right the first time. >> Yeah.
00:48:02
>> Um while she was disappointed with the outcome, she told reporters she was quote satisfied with the efforts of
00:48:07
police and prosecutors. >> All right. >> So, like, damn. >> At least she had that
00:48:11
>> a very impressive outlook. >> Yeah, she did. That's >> But sadly, on December 24th, Christmas
00:48:16
Eve, 2024, Dorothy Moxley died >> at her home in New Jersey at the age of 92. >> Wow.
00:48:23
>> But from complications of the flu. >> Oh, that's awful. >> Now, technically, Martha Moxley's murder
00:48:28
remains unsolved to this day and is currently inactive. >> Oh, it should be active,
00:48:35
>> which makes me crazy. It should be active >> because regardless I that's like the
00:48:40
fact >> girl was murdered. >> The facts of the case I am not giving my personal opinion on this. The facts of
00:48:47
the case are Michael Skakel was convicted of the murder. >> Mhm. >> He was granted a new trial and they
00:48:54
chose not to pursue it. So he was freed. That's just the facts of the case. >> I don't know. Again, no more compelling
00:49:02
evidence has come forward to that we know of >> or that has been released, I should say,
00:49:07
or come public >> to say that he did it >> or that anyone else did it. And that's
00:49:13
what's really frustrating cuz it's like we don't have anything else. There's nothing else we can dig into.
00:49:18
>> They need to review that evidence. >> Why is did fingerprinting ever [ __ ] happen on that thing? I don't know cuz
00:49:27
also the golf club broke so I don't know if it was >> hard to who knows if they have both
00:49:33
parts. >> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know exactly what parts they were able to like or
00:49:37
what the parts what kind of condition they were in or >> she was discovered with her pants like
00:49:45
around her. >> Yes. And the the medical examiner said there was no evidence of sexual assault,
00:49:50
but there was red marks on her thighs that were like handprints that he believed were someone trying to wrench
00:49:57
her knees apart. But there was no biological evidence of sexual assault that they found.
00:50:04
>> Okay. >> That's not saying with 100% certainty. >> Yeah. >> But they were they were fairly confident
00:50:11
that they didn't believe. [sighs] Oh, I think this investigation just was tough.
00:50:16
>> It's got a lot around it. It's got a lot going on. But right now, you know, >> Michael Skel is not a con, you know, not
00:50:26
>> considered the person that did it. >> Yeah. >> Right now. >> But you know what we say, a cold case is
00:50:32
never cold. Exactly. And technically because this is it's open though, right? It's open but inactive.
00:50:38
>> It's it's unsolved and inactive. I think it's just >> Oh, yes. Okay. >> So, it's it's a bummer. I would love to
00:50:44
see it solved regardless of who is the person they identify. I would like it to be solved.
00:50:49
>> Yeah. >> Just for Martha's family. >> Yeah. Their their family deserves justice and so does Martha.
00:50:54
>> Yeah. And for the people who have, but there was there's a few names thrown around in this case. It would it would
00:51:00
be nice if you could, you know, exonerate those those names or prove that somebody did it.
00:51:05
>> Yeah. Just just have some certainty. >> You know, there's a lot of people that
00:51:08
were involved in this case that are thrown around here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What a what a brutal
00:51:14
case and just just >> it's awful. >> It's so awful and it's so messy and it's so young. Super promising.
00:51:21
>> It's so sad for so many reasons. >> Life ahead of her. >> Yeah. Doing everything right. Just being
00:51:26
a teenager in the ' 80s or the '7s. >> '7s. >> And this is awful. >> Just going to hang out with her friends
00:51:33
>> and in a place that like didn't have crime. >> Yeah. Like a safe, >> you know? Like, so like this is just
00:51:38
like >> even weirder and it's and it makes you think more that this was someone who
00:51:43
potentially knew her because like >> it's not like random strangers were >> being attacked or anything like that.
00:51:48
>> Sculpting around Bell Haven. >> Yeah. >> Except for that hitchhiker that they
00:51:53
claimed they saw that no one could ever Yeah. Nobody could prove if they existed
00:51:57
or not. >> Yeah. >> But who knows? >> You never know. >> I don't know. >> You never know.
00:52:01
>> Yeah. I think we need a fun fact. >> We do need a fun fact. Do you have a fun
00:52:06
fact? >> Tbby has a good one. >> Oh my god. I Debb Debb just found the greatest fun fact that just like ruined
00:52:12
my life with the visual as well cuz that is the cutest baby elephant I've ever seen in my life.
00:52:16
>> Elephants are my favorite. >> Baby elephants suck their trunks for comfort like a baby like would suck
00:52:22
their thumb or like a like a pacifier. And they suck their thumbs like just to or their their their trunk thumbs
00:52:30
>> just to soo themselves when they're tired, anxious, or away from their mamas.
00:52:37
>> And please look at this elephant. >> Oh my god. >> I think my entire life just changed
00:52:42
because of that picture of that big elephant. >> I love elephants so much. Elephants are
00:52:47
the best animals ever. They literally like they hold funerals. >> Oh, they take care of each other. They
00:52:53
live in communities >> protect. They save each other's babies. >> Yeah. Like they are We are not We don't
00:53:00
deserve elephants. >> We don't deserve them at all. >> We don't We don't deserve most animals
00:53:04
to be honest. >> My youngest had us watch a show on Disney Plus that was like called
00:53:07
Elephant, I think, or something. And it was just about a whole [ __ ] group of elephants.
00:53:12
>> Oh, honey, I'm f to watch. >> One of one of the elephants saved another one's baby.
00:53:16
>> They do. >> From being stuck in mud. >> Cutest thing I've ever seen. And they
00:53:21
like never gave up. They were like, "I'm saving this baby." So, elephants. >> Oh my god. Also, while we're talking
00:53:26
about that, Drew and I have been watching this show. I think it's on Hulu. It's about the San Diego Zoo and
00:53:32
it is so much fun. >> I don't necessarily recommend watching with your children because they do talk
00:53:36
about mating season. >> I [laughter] literally I was just about to recommend it to Elena because they
00:53:40
were talking about koalas and her girls love koalas, but then they were like, "He's about to have sexy time with the
00:53:47
other koala ladies." And I was like, "Okay, maybe don't have them." texted me and she was like, "Oh my god, they
00:53:51
should watch this." And then like 10 minutes later she was like, "Scratch that. They should not watch this
00:53:56
[laughter] yet." Maybe not yet. You probably have to talk. >> But if you're like an adult who loves
00:54:02
animals, it's a really good show. >> I love that. >> So check it out. >> Hell yeah.
00:54:07
>> And with that being said, we hope you keep listening >> and we hope you >> keep it weird.
00:54:13
>> Just not too weird. >> Not too weird that you leave this case unsolved. >> Yes.
00:54:18
>> Not that weird. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]