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hey weirdos I'm Elina I'm Ash and this is [Music] morbid it is guys we've officially
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wrapped up spooky season and now our regular theme song is back happy November we thought that would be fun to
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do for spooky season some people liked it some people did did not kind of um kind of a tossup we tried something out
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yeah glad we did it it was a great experience it was just our regular music backwards to be like satanic it was just
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like metal metal and scary but we're back to regularly scheduled programming it's weird right now to tell you guys
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that I hope you have a fantastic Halloween because um like I or I hope that you had
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a fantastic Halloween because right now Halloween hasn't even happened yet that's true but by the time you listen
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to this I think it will be over right I don't know how our schedule Works ever to be honest here's my transparent
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moment I never know when an episode is coming out so I just have to do them like really far in advance exactly yeah
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oh okay so if you're on wonder plus right now then it then it has not been Halloween yet but you're if you're not
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on wonder Plus happy Halloween happy post happy Halloween happy had a happy Halloween
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yep there you go and I hope you enjoyed our exist episode yeah Rachel was great she's wicked cool she was fascinating
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and we don't have any entities that she saw attached to us so that's a win I love hearing that and we've had some
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really cool I love hearing that I really liked that uh cuz when she described the
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entities I was like I don't tell me I don't have one of those attached to me right now when you asked I was nervous I
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like wanted you to ask but then I was like what if she like [ __ ] our world up right now she's like actually I see one
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of the worst ones attached to back right now you have uh everything attach all the entities I was scared sometimes it
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feels that way but yeah sometimes I do we've had a good few weeks we got to see our our girlies Karen and Sabrina two
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girls one ghost we got to go to their show and see their lovely beautiful feces human forms and
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oh we could go for it girl you know and then we got to hang out with Tyler AKA ghost honey and you're jealous and he's
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the best He Is We got to go to his book signing and we got to get brunch with him it was wonderful also um really good
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brunch recommendation Elena's always giving the recommendations so I'm going to give a recommendation go to Source in
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Cambridge oh my my mouth is watering right now just it was so good they have like what did you sule Funfetti
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chocolate pancakes Elena got indeed I don't know the name of what I got but it was a pasta dish it was like a bucatini
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carbonara sounds great pasta with an egg on it it looked delicious and the crispy
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potatoes are really good to share they'll ruin you in like a good way way like they'll ruin you for other potatoes
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yeah I have the and they didn't ruin me if you know what I mean um but yeah so it's been our happy news a cool couple
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weeks the you know Halloweeny things John and I went to murder mystery party the other night yeah I didn't even get
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to tell Mikey about this I got to tell Mikey the whole Shenanigans well he's here right now so go it was a I'm not
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going to go into all the details tell them everything tell them everything but I met some listeners there cool and it
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was a [ __ ] blast I highly recommend anybody go to a murder mystery themed party or dinner it is so much fun
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everything was over the top John got so into it he was literally walking up to people and being like so I heard that uh
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everyone's thinks you're a shady [ __ ] uh what's going on like it was amazing I
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love that so good uh but yeah that was fun got me into the spooky spirit and yeah I hope you guys are are all
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spookified and feeling in the season yeah and I hope you're eating a pumpkin pie oh I
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hope you're not oh I love pumpkin pie I do not like pumpkin pie I'll fight you I'll fight you behind the gym okay
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behind the gym which one which gym the school gy oh gosh all right well what a great segue into
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something that has nothing to do with that hiding behind gyms yeah I don't have any way to correlate that we're not
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good at Segways and you know what that's okay I accept that about myself we never
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have been good at segue so why would I do it now so why would we even start now I'm not changing for anyone I will never
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change no I hope I change a little bit I hope I continuously change forever it's
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called metamorph that's a podcast for another day if the light is on then it isn't off so H
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hu that's that's just what I'm going to say about things when I need to transition like the light isn't on then
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or if the light is on then it isn't off if the light is off then it isn't on yeah yeah oh so I'm going to talk about
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an ays today um an arys murder unfortunately I we are bringing it back to some true crime I know we were doing
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some paranormales for a minute and don't think those are going anywhere baby cuz
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they are here to stay we we'll never get rid of them we'll never get rid of them
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but we leaned in obviously for spooky season but now I bring to you the murder of Elizabeth conden okay okay so
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Elizabeth mannering conden she was born April 22nd 1894 now before you leave pump the brakes because she was born
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then but her whole life goes down so we get to a place of modern there you go which is so different yeah you know but
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she was born April 22nd 1894 I know in duth Minnesota to parents Chester conden and Clara banister Clara and Chester
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Clara and Chester CeCe what a cute little couple yes Chester was a lawya and Clara was a school teacher so they
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had moved to the area a few years earlier and when they did Chester ended up buying uh a stake in this like small
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mining operation in massabi Iron Range I think is how you say it so like Chester
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Chester loves to buy small stakes and things he does and you know what Chester loves to not really think that they're
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he's going to get a big Roi listening to me over here Finance boy he didn't think he was going to get
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much return on that but the operation quickly started pulling huge amounts of iron ore from the earth and that made
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Chester kden a very wealthy man look at him going in there being like it's nothing it's nothing just this little
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thing and then it's like Bo boom that's like the best way to go something like no expectations hope for the best but
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expect the worst he was just like I don't know what's going to happen and then boom he
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was rich it happened so between his reputation as a lawyer and his income from the mining operation Chester became
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a very well-known and even actually more well-respected figure in Minnesota politics first through his philanthropic
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work and then he became a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives wow so he's very well respected he sat on um
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that seat from 19 n he sat on the seat he was he was there yeah every time they came in they were like why are you
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sitting on the seat he was just there on that chair see what I did there so his financial success did allow him to buy
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up large plots of land in and around alth which included a large plot plot surrounded by different from a plot plot
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plot surrounded by Birch and pine trees it was beautiful and Chester named the the land and the house that sat upon it
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or would eventually sat upon it seat on it he named it Glen Sheen Glen Sheen Glen Sheen he named it
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that's pretty after the village in Siri England but his family came from oh I like that Glen Sheen now glennen Mansion
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ended up becoming a massive 39 room mansion that was built from Vermont Granite the best oh the best and they
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decorated it with Furnishings from Italy Ireland Germany the Middle East and by the time it was completed in 1908 it
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cost then about $854,000 to complete so you're like wow a mansion like that's a lot of money but
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like mansions for like 34 room like wild and out Mansion but then are you ready I'm ready today 28.5 million
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wa lot of money baby holy [ __ ] money bags wow but thanks to Chester's foresight Glen Sheen was built with like
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future Technologies and cultural tastes in mind the house was originally lit by gas uh Gaslight but it was built with
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wiring so that everything could be modernized as soon as electric lighting was made available
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that's the foresight that's called planning ahead with chester wow that's a forethought a forethought that's the
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forethought and there was also plenty of space on the 22 acre estate to allow for
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the incorporation of tennis courts and more forms of entertainment as they came along wow they really were on it they
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really were and while Glenn Sheen quickly became a popular Gathering Place for family friends and neighbors
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actually Elizabeth and her siblings found the estate quote stuffy and formal they weren't like big fans of when they
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were younger even without guests the conen girls were expected to wear formal dresses to most meals and the boys were
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to wear tuxedos so I could kind of see why they were like all right this is a lot now when they were away from the
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formality of parties and meals with their parents Elizabeth and her siblings entertained each other on the massive
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estate they would play hide and seek there was like s so many uh hidden passageways and compartments so they
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could easily hide oh that's cool very uh ready or not yes mhm they would go ice skating or play hockey on the creek in
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the winter and sometimes they' just go out and like explore the ground so slowly but surely they started getting
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used to their new space yeah and even though their dad was among du's most prominent citizens both he and Clara
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their mother were strict disciplinarians with very high expectations so the Conan
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children they were all really close with their parents okay according to local historian uh Gail fetcher I believe is
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how you say it yeah Chester and Clara quot tried hard to spend time with each child individually and Chester had a
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special way of getting to know his children better each year Chester took one child on a trip oh Isn't that cool I
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think that's a cool idea it is yeah and just the fact that like I mean back then
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for them to be thinking about like spending time alone with each child yeah and like how important that was cuz you
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can fall into that like routine when you have multiple children of just like they
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all come together yeah to everything like everything's has a family and but it is nice to to have little moments of
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one each one yeah yeah cuz kids need that yeah but still because of the time period neither parent was like overly
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affectionate or super doting yeah and all the kden children were raised to be self-reliant and one of the biggest
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things that was like very important to the family was to give back to the community whenever they could oh that's
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nice yeah it was like a staple it was a particular lesson that Elizabeth would carry with her throughout her entire
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life so like many of the nation's wealthiest families once they were of an appropriate age the conden children were
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sent to some of the country's finest boarding schools Elizabeth and her sister spent their primary school years
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at Dana Hall which is actually in Welsley Massachusetts um and it's very popular
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with American High Society children it sounds it Dana Hall yeah I was going to say you you got to be somebody to go to
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Dana Hall you got to be someone so after graduating from Dana Hall in 1915 Elizabeth enrolled at Vasser College uh
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she followed in the footsteps of her older sister Helen but unfortunately after just one semester at Vasser
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Elizabeth was called Home in the fall of 1916 because Chester actually died unexpectedly from a sudden attack of
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plcy I believe is how you say it oh man it's a condition where the lining of the
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lungs become like very severely inflamed oh that's terrifying so sad and just like very sudden yeah so Chester's
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obituary was published in actually a special edition of The duth Herald and he was celebrated not only for his
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political achievements and supportive social causes but also because he quote was a good man with sound instincts and
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large capacities for services a so like he he gave back to his community like good dude now Chester's death obviously
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hit the family very very hard particularly Elizabeth because she and her dad had been very close oh that's
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sad so instead of going back to vasar I read it phonetically V Vass Elizabeth decided that she was going to stay in
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duth quote feeling like it was her duty to remain at Glenn Sheen and look after her mother a so she kind of like took on
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a a role that was so selfless yeah you know yeah now years earlier Chester had established two trusts one to provide
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for Clara and the children and the other quote to provide and maintain for my wife and children a home so long as any
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of them shall live making it easy for any of my children who so may wish to occupy Glen Sheen a so he made sure that
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no matter what his family would be taking care they want to live there they get to live there MH in simple terms the
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second trust covered all of the operating costs of the massive estate as long as Clara Andor one of the children
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was in the Mansion okay which would be the case until Elizabeth's tragic death oh so the money that was left for
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Elizabeth by her far father would allow her to live a life of luxury and really not have to worry about anything she
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could have spent and spent and spent and never spent at all and never spent at all exactly but her parents had stressed
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the importance of helping others the whole time that she'd been growing up so Elizabeth actually ended up leading a
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life of service much like her parents did oh I love that yeah when she returned to duth she and her mother
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became super close and she was said to be Clara's closest friend and companion until Clara passed away in 1950 at 96
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years old oh so they were just best friends forever oh my God and she lived a long time Clara she did yeah now
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outside of her familial obligations Elizabeth became a dedicated volunteer with multiple organizations in duth she
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offered up her time whenever she could she would donate like very sizable donations to a ton of organizations
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regularly and after her mom passed she filled her calendar with fundraisers ERS and board meetings from for causes from
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the local library and her family's Church to the St Louis County Heritage and art center and she also donated a
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lot to Lighthouse for the Blind which is an advocacy group for the visually impaired wow so she was just doing the
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damn thing doing the damn thing helping anybody whenever she could wow she might
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have been one of duth deth's wealthiest and most respected residents but she actually shunned public attention and
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appreciation for her generosity and she really just preferred to live a modest life that was more you know in
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keeping with her religious upbringing and life of service she didn't want a lot of recognition she just wanted to do
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it and then do it quietly just go back to her life and do it and I love that yeah now when she went on in public she
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dressed very simply and conservatively and on occasions when she did wear jewelry it was always very simple and
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elegant according to one of her close friends Elizabeth liked quote liked to do things for people but she was very
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natural so basically saying like she got satisfaction from giving and not necessarily from being for being
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recognized for the giving exactly which I think like that that whole like idea confuses some people like some people
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cannot understand that yeah and like they and it's like if you're not looking for a big pat on the back about it then
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it it doesn't occur and then people almost like think that you are even if you're not necessarily exactly so it's
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so weird it's still that way but a lot of people get uncomfortable being pre and that was Elizabeth like she she
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didn't want the attention not because not really for any other reason other than just made her uncomfortable yeah
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like some people just want to do the nice thing and then just have it done they're not looking for the pat on the
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back about it they just want it's not about them yeah exactly and she was one of those people but you're right for her
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man yeah she's [ __ ] she's killing it killing it I love Elizabeth but all the time and attention Elizabeth gave to
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others wasn't exactly without its costs it often came at the expense of a romantic life and the thing was it
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wasn't that there weren't you know suitable men interested in her it was more that she felt like her time was
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better spent on other non-romantic Pursuits yeah but there was one man that Elizabeth had maintained a close
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relationship too according to her friends and family this man Fred wolven had become or had been a close friend of
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Elizabeth's for many years and she actually at one point accepted a marriage proposal from him but
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eventually she returned to the ring and told him quote she didn't love him enough to spend the rest of her life
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with him wow now he was obviously heartbroken over the rejection and he never married wow and when he died he
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left all of his money to Elizabeth with instructions for her to buy a ring to commemorate their friendship oh my God
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he just loved her like purely wow that's like the purest love I've ever heard of
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like accepted the fact that she didn't want to be with him still wanted to be her friend and left all his money to her
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wow it was just like by a ring to remember me by that's a man right there now even though she got never or excuse
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me even though she never got married remember she she she got never married she got never married and she didn't
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really make much time for a romantic relationship she still loved children and she refused to let her single status
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prevent her from having a family hell yeah which was a really Progressive and defiant position for the era yeah in
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1932 when she was 38 years old she worked with an adop option agency in Greensboro North Carolina to adopt a
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3-month-old baby girl that she ended up naming margerie mannering conden oh she told friends and family I want to help
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her I can give her a good home and schooling and she is precious that little girl I know she was a cute little
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baby so those friends and family members suspected there was more to the adoption
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than Elizabeth newer was letting on her niece Mary van everra said there was a kind of feeling that Marjorie was to be
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the answer to want Elizabeth's loneliness and her feelings of being unfulfilled as a single person but that
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also made Marjorie sort of a toy okay I think I think that's just an opinion I mean yeah in my opinion that's simp
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opinion op that is an opinion now three years later Elizabeth would adopt another child this time from an
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unmarried couple in Chicago who just didn't have the resources to raise a baby and she named her new daughter
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Jennifer Susan conden Okay and she really hoped that the two girls would get along as you know she and her
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siblings had aten exporing maning hide and goek do all that fun but unfortunately she would
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eventually learn that these two girls had very different personalities and there was little chance of them ever
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becoming close oh that's sad yeah the differences between Marjorie and Jennifer became clear just actually a
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few years into their adoption Jennifer was really social friendly she liked to be around people she was what people
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would refer to as an easy child okay um according to Gail uh fetching her I believe it is Jennifer had an outgoing
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bubbly personality that allowed her to make friends easily she liked being around the other members of the family
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who would visit Glenn Sheen and generally enjoyed uh spending time with her mother margorie on the other hand
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was an introvert was introverted and preferred being alone with a book to being with other people and she referred
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to her as a complex child to rise okay which again opinion yeah now at an early age though Marjorie demonstrated a
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pretty strong will and she would become pretty difficult or volatile if she didn't get her way she had a lot of
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Tantrums okay Elizabeth's niece Mary recalled that quote Marjorie liked attention and she was bossy as far back
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as Mary could remember margorie had this need to be in charge when she was playing with other children and she
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always wanted to have more toys or games than the other kids like you know yeah when she didn't get her way she would
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have a tantrum she would hit she would kick she would scream and the Tantrums and arguments really didn't happen in
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public but it was clear to everybody that the problem wasn't entirely margerie Mary said of her aunt aunt
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Elizabeth did have a difficult time being a single mother and then elaborated that she also had a hard time
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imposing any boundaries or discipline with Marjorie that's tough she was kind of just this wild child that never
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really was able to Be Tamed and it doesn't sound like Elizabeth I'm sure she probably wanted to to her
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in some way but she she was it was hard exactly yeah it's hard I mean even like because you know kids do respond to
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boundaries they do like boundaries abely whether they know it or not consciously
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they respond to boundaries and and it helps them to be better and more contained and More in control of their
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own emotions and feelings and actions but it's not easy no it's not easy to give like I people some people find it
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easy and they find it easy to discipline and to you know put these boundaries out
00:22:04
there yeah it's difficult like my kids are seven and four now and I still find it difficult to throw a boundary line
00:22:11
there when it when you have to be like tough about it you know like and that's in a two parent household ex I was going
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to say and I have the backup of John and it's like but it's not easy just cuz all
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you want to do is just make your kids Happy And just like you just want to see them happy so when you have to
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in you know put in a boundary or put in a big no it's it's not easy well and then you add the fact that marger is an
00:22:36
adopted child and Elizabeth wanted to give her the best life possible she doesn't want to have to discipline her
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all the time you know she wants to be like okay it's not easy some people find it easy and I'm sure some people
00:22:48
listening can find it easy and can't understand this side and there's people who don't find it easy and can't
00:22:54
understand the other side so I think it's just one of those things that's like exactly you know she obviously did
00:22:59
not find it easy she didn't and the thing was some certainly not all but some of margery's behavioral problems
00:23:05
did stem from her insecurities about being adopted she complained actually pretty often that her cousin's quote
00:23:11
teased her about being illegitimate oh and when she yeah we don't know if that if that really did happen she that's
00:23:19
just that's something she said happen I up if that was true mhm and when she was
00:23:24
older she would tell people that the rest of the F uh the rest of the conen family never accepted her because she
00:23:29
wasn't related by blood she said I never felt part of the family the animosity goes back to day one which those are her
00:23:36
feelings that's her outlook on it that's her uh and that's the thing that sounds
00:23:41
very sad it does but Marjorie even took things like having to sit at the Kids Table during family events as a slight
00:23:48
directly related to her being adopted it's like no I think it's just cuz you're a kid and it's like no that's
00:23:54
just how it goes I I had to sit at the Kids Table forever and I [ __ ] hated it but wasn't because like my mom was a
00:23:59
single mom was like slighting me for that doesn't make any sense now unlike her own upbringing where we know service
00:24:06
to others was really emphasized Elizabeth actually lavished both of her girls with gifts trips and other
00:24:12
extravagances because remember she adopted these kids she wants to she's I think she's doing more than the average
00:24:18
person necessarily would she's just excited because she's in the position to do so exactly and she wants to and and
00:24:25
again it's very it's hard you want to see that smile on your kids's face I would give my kids the whole damn world
00:24:32
if I could like it's you just want to make them happy well and a lot of people it's a hard balance to hit absolutely
00:24:37
and a lot of people say like I've heard even like you say this and you had a like a great childhood but you always
00:24:42
want to give your kid more than what you had even if you did have a t even if you
00:24:46
had a great childhood which it sounds like Elizabeth did y she wants to not you know ratchet it up a notch do it
00:24:53
even better and I get it so both girls took piano lessons they practiced on the Steinway grand piano at Glen Sheen and
00:25:00
when it came time to shop for new clothes this sounds amazing I want this representatives from the high-end stores
00:25:07
would come out to the mansions with all the latest fashions and like trunks for the girls to try on so not have to go
00:25:14
anywhere oh my God and just to have like the latest and greatest of everything just brought to you and try it on in the
00:25:21
comfort of your own home that would be great and when they went out to friends houses or into town they were always
00:25:27
driven bu a show for so they were living the life they were living large and actually for Jennifer the money and
00:25:34
attention made her uncomfortable and she would kind of go out of her way to avoid
00:25:38
being seen like in the chauffeur or in the latest fashion yeah she felt like it was a little too like ostentatious
00:25:46
beautiful word thank you $1 but margerie embraced the lavish spending and that began a lifelong
00:25:54
struggle with money characterized by over spending and an obsession with her mother's jewelry uh-oh Jennifer said of
00:26:02
her sister she always had a spending problem even when she was little she'd steal money from my mother's purse oh
00:26:08
which like when you're little and showing signs of that that's yeah that's not great not good when she was older
00:26:13
marjerie actually got into the habit of stealing her mother's credit cards and CH uh charging up huge bills at local
00:26:20
stores but Elizabeth always paid those bills without imposing any consequences oh no yeah the older margerie got the
00:26:28
more apparent her behavioral problems became by the time she was enrolled at Dana Hall like her mother had been as a
00:26:34
teenager Elizabeth was regularly receiving calls and letters about marjorie's bad behavior oh she it ranged
00:26:42
from minor rule breaking to Straight Up physical violence oh wow in one instance
00:26:47
when a teacher insisted that which this is an interesting instance you might feel the same as me uh a teacher
00:26:54
insisted that Elizabeth needed help raising the children cuz she was a single parent Marjorie got pissed and
00:27:00
slapped the woman across the face okay here's the thing yeah don't insult my mom violence isn't the answer don't go
00:27:08
around slapping people don't go around hitting people it's never good is never coming from it trust
00:27:14
me there's many people in my life as an adult that I've wanted to whack across the face there's a few that I would love
00:27:20
to right this second yep see but don't do it it doesn't come nothing comes good from it but do I understand the feeling
00:27:27
behind it yeah yeah just don't act on it yeah don't talk don't talk about my mom
00:27:31
don't act like my mom just cuz she's a single mother yeah like no she's got she's an adult she knows what like I
00:27:40
understand why she was pissed absolutely I get it but again don't act go slapping
00:27:44
people no but she told her mother in a letter sent on Valentine's Day in 1949 I had never hated anyone so damn much in
00:27:51
all my life Wow like I mean don't talk disrespectfully to her mom I guess yeah I guess she was riding for her mom for a
00:27:59
minute at that moment at least because I have a feeling this isn't going to turn
00:28:02
out well nope which is really breaking my heart I know because Elizabeth really seems like a a cool chick she is this is
00:28:09
a very very tragic story I mean it's morbid yeah so over time marjorie's Behavior got worse and worse and worse
00:28:16
she was lying compulsively stealing more she was overspending and it was really just all too much for Elizabeth to deal
00:28:23
with and when she did recognize that she was in over her head she took margerie to be evaluated at the uh meninger
00:28:30
Clinic which was a psychiatric Treatment Center in Topeka Kansas it's Topeka right TOA yeah the doctors considered
00:28:37
her behavioral problems and her General disposition to actually be more serious than just teenage problems and they
00:28:44
diagnosed Marjorie as a sociopath a person who ignores social and moral Norms wow write that in there and the
00:28:53
summer between her Junior and Senior year she spent long stretches at the clinic clinic where where she did get
00:28:57
inpatient care and it's cool that I'm glad that Elizabeth like took the right steps took the steps yeah yeah exactly
00:29:05
and that fall uh Marjorie did not return to Dana Hall instead she was sent to a group home in St Louis uh and she
00:29:11
finished out her senior year at a school which they then referred to as a school
00:29:15
for Disturbed children wow so things got real very quickly after graduation she planned marjerie to enroll in courses at
00:29:23
St Louis University but her plans changed suddenly after she met her soon to be husband dick
00:29:29
Leroy now let's talk about Dick Leroy a little bit let's talk about Dick you know when Dick Leroy graduated from the
00:29:36
University of Massachusetts in 1950 he had planned to go on to pursue a law degree are you MK guy you maskhead but
00:29:45
unfortunately he didn't have a ton of money and his lack of funds forced him to change his plans and instead he just
00:29:51
accepted an offer from his brother to come to St Louis St Louis and work with him in the insurance business all right
00:29:58
so he hadn't lived there more than a couple months when he met margorie he had stopped in for dinner at Mom and Pop
00:30:04
lippard's boarding house which is where Marjorie was living at the time W oh okay so they began dating not long after
00:30:11
and they bonded over their shared interests and values dick recalled of their early days she was so exuberant so
00:30:17
full of fun they were both members of the centinary Methodist Church so most of their dating life revolved around the
00:30:25
church and its Associated activity group GRS but interestingly no matter how much
00:30:30
time they spent together it's kind of unclear how much dick really did learn about Marjorie there were definitely
00:30:37
skeletons she was keeping in the closet for lack of a better term she told him that she was from an upper middle class
00:30:42
family which is uh an interesting way to describe that is very interesting um and
00:30:49
had been studying nursing at Washington University when they met and when she had to visit the clinic in early 1951
00:30:57
she explained to dick that she had some trouble in her teens and her overprotective mother had insisted that
00:31:02
she visit the clinic ah so he didn't know anything about her diagnosis yeah which is her personal business to share
00:31:09
with whomever she pleases but it's just a fact that he did not know he did not know exactly and then in the winter of
00:31:15
1951 he and Marjorie became engaged much to Elizabeth's displeasure she was not happy about this and it wasn't that she
00:31:24
disapproved of dick as a person it was just that she was concerned that Marjorie was rushing into marriage she
00:31:30
was like you just met this guy like barely a year ago and I was really hoping that you would focus on your
00:31:36
education instead of just getting married right out of you know classic parent worry yeah absolutely and she was
00:31:42
like right I think she was like right out of high school when this happened so while Elizabeth wasn't thrilled at the
00:31:49
idea of Marjorie getting married so soon she actually couldn't have picked a better man for margerie to marry Dick's
00:31:55
family had been financially well off during during the really early years of his life but A Series of Unfortunate
00:32:00
Events actually led to a loss of their income and so the Leroy family had to get used to used to living without all
00:32:06
the Finer Things and given margery's tendency to overspend and her General irresponsibility with money Elizabeth
00:32:14
was like okay well maybe Dick's thriftiness will help balance out that impulsive part of Marjorie like yeah
00:32:21
this could be good for her like maybe it will be a nice balance right so margerie
00:32:25
and Dick were married on June 30th 1951 in a traditional Methodist ceremony which was actually held in the large
00:32:32
living room at Glenn Sheen and there was an audience of about 150 there okay and
00:32:37
then they went on a two-e honeymoon and returned back to St Louis St Louis and eventually got a small apartment in
00:32:43
brenwood Missouri brenwood excuse me uh at first things between Marjorie and Dick were wonderful they were very much
00:32:51
in the honeymoon state of things all right but it didn't take long for margerie to slip back into her old
00:32:57
habits a few months into the marriage dick was very surprised and confused when he started getting threatening
00:33:03
phone calls from creditors demanding that payments needed to be made for items and services that he didn't
00:33:10
actually even know he had purchased that would be confusing yeah and upsetting yeah in one instance he got a call from
00:33:17
the local grocery store demanding a payment of $400 that Marjorie had recently charged
00:33:23
to their account according to Dick whose monthly salary at the time was $260 oh no quote that $400 was like the
00:33:33
national debt to me yeah because remember this is in the 1950s so I didn't do the conversions but but that's
00:33:40
a it's a lot of money today and it's like his entire paycheck for two full months exactly like like more than even
00:33:47
so a few months later while Elizabeth was visiting from Minnesota Marjorie charged several thousand dollar to dicks
00:33:54
Accounts at department stores around town and when Dick confronted Marjorie about it she blamed the charges on
00:34:01
Elizabeth saying that Elizabeth thought it would be easier to charge the things to Dick's credit cards than her own
00:34:08
since she wasn't from there which is was not true like Elizabeth would not have done that and when they're going for
00:34:13
that kind of very detailed and ridiculous lie it's like oh no it's gotten real bad yeah you're grasping for
00:34:19
straws and the the explanation was obviously a lie meant to avoid consequences but Elizabeth did end up
00:34:27
sending the money to cover the charges anyway cuz she just didn't want margorie to be in trouble you know yeah I think
00:34:32
she's just trying to put Band-Aids as everywhere she can exactly and you get it I mean she's a mom yeah she's just
00:34:39
and she's she's probably just trying to make it all go away just like our lives stressing her out and it's something
00:34:44
that she wasn't necessarily expecting or used to yeah which it's like it's is it
00:34:49
the right choice no but like not in our opinion but you know but that's my opinion that's my opinion from
00:34:55
Housewives so Mar the thing was marjorie's spending wasn't always on minor things like clothes or jewelry in
00:35:02
the fall of 1951 she started visiting a local stable to see a horse that she'd been riding and she told dick that she
00:35:09
had been renting on like renting the horse for her session but in truth she had actually purchased this entire
00:35:16
[ __ ] horse from a breeder in Illinois and had been putting off payments by telling the breeder that she lost his
00:35:23
address and thus didn't know where to send them w so she bought a whole ass horse without buying a whole ass horse
00:35:30
and then lied to her husband and the breeder about paying for it or buying it in the first place damn girl
00:35:38
damn that's a lot it's getting wiy how are you going to explain a whole ass horse I have no idea I myself have never
00:35:44
bought a whole ass horse so either I wouldn't know the first thing about explaining that me either But as time
00:35:50
went by it was becoming clearer and clearer to dick that his wife hadn't exactly been honest with him about her
00:35:56
life before they married in addition to the Reckless spending he had never once seen her leave for any classes or study
00:36:03
for nursing courses that she said she'd been taking when they met confusing like
00:36:08
that wasn't a thing yeah and then there was the matter of her trips to the men menager Clinic Marjorie had told dick
00:36:15
that she'd only received treatment at the clinic to appease her overprotective mother but after talking about it with
00:36:21
Elizabeth dick began to understand the full extent of marjorie's mental illness and how it had manifested throughout her
00:36:28
teen years yeah so unfortunately the picture of his wife that was emerging and the months and years after their
00:36:34
marriage only got Bleaker and more challenging as time went on because really she had started this with
00:36:40
multiple lies yeah she said I come from a upper middle class family that's not true NOP she lied about her why she had
00:36:48
been to this Clinic which I can understand in the beginning of meeting someone you don't want them to have like
00:36:53
preconceived notions about who you are but before you marry someone some one they need to know yeah about your health
00:36:59
yeah you should at least let them in on some things here you know yeah and she was like I'm a nurse or like I'm taking
00:37:05
nursing courses Li that was not true at all so in May of 1952 Marjorie gave birth to the first of what would be the
00:37:12
couples seven children whoa they had seven bibis and the first was a boy that they named Peter Peter Peter Peter's
00:37:20
birth was quickly followed by another baby next year and yet another the year after that and so on and so forth
00:37:26
unfortunately the addition of the children to the Le the Leroy family did nothing to curb margery's compulsive
00:37:33
behaviors but it did give her seven new ways to manipulate Elizabeth into sending money and spending on her
00:37:40
grandkids Jennifer said of her sister margorie had no conception of money whatsoever she always had to have the
00:37:46
best and most expensive of everything mother would talk about Marge and the spending and she really didn't know how
00:37:51
to stop it oh so it was just getting out of control it seems like just over everyone's head big time it turned out
00:37:59
Elizabeth wasn't the only one who didn't know what to do about marjorie's spending and compulsive lying in no time
00:38:06
at all dick was falling into the role of the buffer between margorie and all these creditors but when he insisted
00:38:12
that he take charge of the finances margorie would become abusive or manipulative so he would eventually just
00:38:17
back down because he's like please like you're spending money that we don't have
00:38:24
like let me we're in massive amounts of debt like can I just have a go just let me give a shot like you're you tried it
00:38:31
didn't work out let me try it that's it like I'll consult you I gu it makes you feel better but clearly you can't manage
00:38:37
this on your own so we're a union but she she would not allow that to happen now despite their best efforts and
00:38:43
intentions when it came to marjerie in reality neither dick nor Elizabeth would ever be able to manage her behavior and
00:38:50
that became apparent in the late 1950s when margorie bought a $32,000 home near Lake Harriet in
00:38:59
Minneapolis without ever Consulting her husband oh that's not good she bought a $32,000 home then which would be like
00:39:08
spending $350,000 today and not Consulting your partner wow if I spent $350,000 without talking to Drew I don't
00:39:23
even know like I can't even fathom that then that's not even a purchased a whole
00:39:28
ass property bought a whole ass home like what oops what and when she produced the contract for his signature
00:39:38
dick was like I'm not signing that like no [ __ ] way so she scratched his name off the contract and bribed the realtor
00:39:46
with $1,000 from an account that didn't exist wow like she was honestly she was like a con artist as well yeah it sounds
00:39:54
like it and by the time anyone had realized what happened uh or that margorie had committed multiple acts of
00:39:59
fraud it was too late the home sale had gone through without and or the home sale had gone through and getting out of
00:40:07
the contract at that point would have cost more than the house itself wow so she manipulated every everyone at every
00:40:17
step of the way and just like she had done so many times before Elizabeth came to the rescue and sent enough money to
00:40:23
cover the costs to avoid any upset oh my God God wild we got to stop this lady I know
00:40:31
I know so just a few weeks and cuz nobody was stopping her just a few weeks after purchasing the house Marjorie
00:40:38
insisted to dick that they needed to redecorate the entire place oh okay so Not only was she going to buy a
00:40:44
$350,000 property now uh and you know without consulting him at all but then she was like we also need a ton of money
00:40:52
to redecorate the entire thing and it's like r rations are expensive oh my God anytime you're
00:40:59
decorating any room in your house it's like oh my God like the wow wow yep wow so as he had done before Dick refused to
00:41:09
spend the money on the interior Decor uh and reminded his wife how much they already owed her mother simply for
00:41:15
buying this [ __ ] house yeah and a few weeks later the family returned home from church to find their dog and the
00:41:22
neighbor dog running loose uh throughout the house and all the living room furniture had been torn to shreds which
00:41:29
of course required them to redecorate wow now margorie insisted it was the dog the dogs who had destroyed
00:41:36
the house but dick didn't have any proof but always suspected it was margorie who
00:41:40
had destroyed the furniture with a knife and blamed it on the dogs really yep he
00:41:45
fig he thought that somehow she went in there and tore everything open because the dogs are just like running through
00:41:50
the house like crazy yeah probably making a mess how did they like slit open multiple sofas and chairs ha s and
00:41:56
this that and the other thing like dogs are wiy but they're not I mean not that I've seen that they're that wiy they
00:42:03
probably could but I think he also knew that she wanted to redecorate the house and was going to do whatever she could
00:42:08
to make it happen damn years later he said Marjorie was the last one out of the house I confronted her I knew she'd
00:42:14
done it but she swore up and down that she didn't do it oh man yeah imagine if she didn't and it's just like the dogs
00:42:21
just ripped open everything I know like obviously there's no way of proving it but yeah damn I would put my money on
00:42:27
March I would also put my money on March here but throughout the 1960s margorie and Dick's marriage just continued and
00:42:33
continue to deteriorate no matter how much money was coming in from Dick's salary and eventually from a trust that
00:42:40
Elizabeth set up Marjorie seemed to always find ways to spend far more than they actually had D So eventually they
00:42:47
did decide to go to couples counseling which was kind of a last ditch effort to save the marriage and it was during this
00:42:53
period that a psychiatrist elaborated on margery's earlier diagnosis saying that
00:42:59
her biggest problem was promiscuity with money caused by a personality defect ah
00:43:04
and then another Psy psychiatrist diagnosed her as borderline manic depressive oh which now is known today
00:43:11
as borderline personality disorder ah okay so unfortunately it doesn't seem like she was willing to accept any kind
00:43:18
of help for the mental illness that she was experiencing so it only got worse yeah and actually once after they
00:43:26
finished a couple's therapy session the therapist pulled dick aside and told him
00:43:30
protect yourself make sure you have a special fund Marjorie could wipe you out wow just because there was she had no
00:43:37
intention to ever stop spending this money like she wasn't going to therapy and saying like this is what I'm doing
00:43:44
and I need help stopping it like I want to it was this is what I'm doing and this is what I want to do deal with it
00:43:49
deal exactly deal with it so by 1970 the EXP the excessive spending on lavish antiques horses properties and other
00:43:57
unnecessary expenses had all become way too much for dick the last straw came in
00:44:03
the fall of 1970 when margorie took out a $20,000 loan to start a horse breeding
00:44:09
program which she was unable to get by telling the loan officer that she would put up funds from her trust as
00:44:16
collateral jez excuse me I meant to say she was able to get by uh saying that she would put these funds up as
00:44:22
collateral but unbeknownst to the bank those funds would not become available for several more years my God so she was
00:44:30
not going to be able to put them up as collateral now on October 31st 1970 Halloween Halloween Marjorie came home
00:44:40
and found dick waiting on the front steps with a bag packed for himself oh wow he was done she begged him not to
00:44:46
leave she promised that she'd be better about spending but dick was like listen we've done this before we've had this
00:44:51
conversation a myriad of times I can't do this anymore yeah and that night he moved into a motel until he was uh able
00:44:59
to find permanent accommodations for himself and it probably took a while because she had [ __ ] up his credit in
00:45:06
a way beyond measure exactly so in the weeks and months that followed margery's attitude turned from regretful to
00:45:13
confrontational and then eventually just completely vindictive when it became clear that dick was not going to come
00:45:19
back to her she just started badmouthing him around town in front of the children
00:45:24
trying to win their leite and turn them against their dad and as the divorce proceedings unfolded she did everything
00:45:31
she could to keep the kids from dick she wouldn't allow him in the house she would pretend that she forgot about
00:45:37
scheduled visits she would say that he had been out uh physically abusive to the point that she sought a restraining
00:45:43
order but no such restraining order existed oh wow like it was bad oh man it it became a very nasty divorce and in
00:45:51
the Years immediately following the divorce dick actually ended up seeing very little of his kids because of all
00:45:58
the nastiness and all the while margorie was continuing to excessively spend she was
00:46:04
charging countless items to service and services still to Dick's accounts around
00:46:09
town without ever saying anything to him about it wow so the divorce was finalized in
00:46:15
1971 but that was hardly the end of Dick's relationship with Marjorie because for years afterwards she spent a
00:46:22
lot of time spreading rumors and lies about him to anyone who would listen and she would constantly use the custody of
00:46:29
the children to as like a weapon she would weaponize terrible and then there were other events like the Vandal
00:46:35
vandalization of his car in 1973 that unfortunately he couldn't prove but he was very convinced that Margery was
00:46:42
responsible quite simply marjorie's position was if dick didn't want to be with her she would do everything in her
00:46:49
power to make his life miserable damn that's scary it is it's very scary and the years after her divorce from dick
00:46:57
her her behavior continued to just spiral out of control she was getting Wilder and just more predictable with
00:47:03
every outrageous act in May of 1974 she actually was able to coers Elizabeth into co-signing a loan for
00:47:13
$345,000 back then today that would be like co-signing a loan for 2.1 million wow $2.1 million listen I don't
00:47:25
think I love anybody that much to cosign a loan for that holy [ __ ] she said that
00:47:30
the money was for renovations for her property and at the time Elizabeth was 80 years old and in declining Health
00:47:38
which Marjorie was using to her advantage and Margery eventually defaulted on the payments so the bank
00:47:45
sued Elizabeth which forced a civil suit where margorie quote admitted to obtaining her mother's signature by
00:47:52
duress and under false pretenses oh damn this is so messy mhm she said she asked
00:47:58
for her mother's signature in a moment where she was not of entirely sound mind and Jennifer said of the situation
00:48:04
Jennifer's the sister yeah she said with Mom when it came to Mar marjerie I don't
00:48:08
think she could say no she was vulnerable and Marjorie was a con artist damn now later that same year Elizabeth
00:48:15
became quote unquote mysteriously ill after a visit where Marjorie had been seen feeding her some homemade marmalade
00:48:23
what the [ __ ] tests later showed that her system had an elevated level of meprobamate which is a tranquilizer
00:48:30
known for its high toxicity this is terrifying so basically people suspected that Marjorie had
00:48:39
something to do with this poisoning because she was trying to get more money out of her mother like she wanted her
00:48:45
inheritance wow but they chose not to investigate the case I think because they they would probably have a hard
00:48:52
time proving it yeah and it would just be really messy in Elizabeth's final years of life oh but from that point on
00:48:59
nurses and domestic staff were instructed to pay very close attention to marjorie's interaction with Elizabeth
00:49:06
when she visited now things only got worse the following year in May of 1975 Marjorie
00:49:13
was suspected of arson when her home on the Minnesota Wisconsin border caught fire and
00:49:20
literally burned to the ground what the [ __ ] a few months later she got angry with Tom Welch the bank officer who
00:49:27
managed her trust and several people overheard her saying she was quote going to take care of that bastard what the f
00:49:33
like chill out that's it I'm like take a breather eat a Moonie Moon spand people's money drink a seven up
00:49:43
stop like you got to calm down like reel it in Sister jeez and she also allegedly
00:49:49
made several calls to contacts in in Chicago to arrange for a hit on Welch her lone officer what the [ __ ] who
00:49:56
managed her trust yep now later that summer she ended up moving to Colorado and was arrested not long after that on
00:50:03
charges that she stole two cars from a Minnesota dealership after purchasing the cars with bad
00:50:10
checks she's she's so much she's wilding out I also don't understand how people maintain anger for that long I don't
00:50:20
know like getting so angry at someone to like take a hit out on them is like Wild
00:50:25
on every level but it's also good that you don't understand how that feels but maintaining that level of Rage for that
00:50:32
long to go through so many steps of a process is always very fascinating to me because I just don't have time for it no
00:50:41
I'm here for a good time I have time for that kind of Rage like I get mad yeah but it goes away pretty quick like I'm
00:50:47
it has to I don't it just I can't maintain it it's like how some people are really good at Building A Fire and
00:50:54
maintaining it into like a bond fire I'm not good at that I'm not either my fire
00:50:58
dies out immediately me too I can barely start one yeah so but yeah I think she was just a very very mentally ill woman
00:51:06
who never sounds like Because treatment was very much available to her like people tried to make it available to her
00:51:12
but it doesn't look like she was she wasn't accepted she didn't want to so in the early months of 1976 moving uh
00:51:18
shortly after moving to Colorado Marjorie ended up meeting another man named uh Roger Caldwell at a Parents
00:51:24
Without Partners meeting which that's like the saddest thing ever parents without partn the name of that
00:51:29
just broke my heart like I'm like I love all of you now where Margery was described as Brash and assertive Roger
00:51:36
was described by those who knew him as a softspoken friendly and easy to approach
00:51:40
kind of guy by some others described him as a passive dreamer with delusions of grandeur okay so those are two two mixed
00:51:50
reviews two different things yeah he got he definitely has mixed reviews yeah three out of five recommend so he was a
00:51:56
man who wanted or maybe even believed that he deserved everything he wanted but was never really willing to put hard
00:52:03
work in to get whatever that was had that in common yeah yeah we know those people following his marriage in
00:52:10
1954 Roger had en enrolled in a Lutheran college with plans of becoming a minister but just one year later he
00:52:18
abandoned his studies and started working a series of menial jobs he jumped from one job to the other and
00:52:24
just dve his wife along from one location to the next it was but his original plan was to become a minister
00:52:30
and yeah and then he just kind of like walked away from that yeah so in the years that followed he and his wife
00:52:35
would end up having three children but even that didn't cause Roger to get himself together or settle on a career
00:52:41
and to add to the dysfunction since he got married he had developed a drinking problem which of course exacerbated the
00:52:48
tensions and arguments with his wife Roger would promise to quit drinking and he would even actually go to some AA
00:52:54
meetings but inevitably he'd start drinking again a few weeks later and the cycle would continue over and over So
00:53:00
eventually his wife Martha got tired of the financial insecurity and Roger's alcoholism and you know the things that
00:53:07
came from that like his temper and in July of 1974 they ended up divorcing so to Marjorie Roger's difficult marriage
00:53:15
and personal problems made him seem like a kindred spirit of course said I've gone through all of that of course so
00:53:21
rather than see his failures as the result of his own actions or in actions Marjorie considered them just to both be
00:53:28
Black Sheep the black sheeps of their families it was them against the world and that made him so much more
00:53:34
attractive oh man that literally never turns out well when people are like I'm just the black sheep and it's me against
00:53:41
the world and it's this and like when it's you against the world it's like that's not a great feeling no so after
00:53:48
just two months of dating the two became engaged on St Patty's Day 1976 and they
00:53:53
got married at a small ceremony um at a hotel in Denver and none of margery's family were in attendance they
00:54:00
were not invited it didn't take long for Roger to notice certain undesirable qualities in his new life she seemed to
00:54:07
uh spend far more money than she had wait what this is new crazy I know and she was always at odds with the bank and
00:54:14
the manager of her trust you know the one that she had tried to call a hit out on and before at odds with someone I
00:54:20
would say that is the definition of at odds but before long he started noticing other little things like his credit
00:54:27
cards going missing ah but whenever he would uh confront Marjorie about the issue she would become aggressive or
00:54:33
combative in one instance she did threaten to end her life over it wow that's not cool never having been very
00:54:40
assertive Roger would just back down to margorie who was more than comfortable dominating her husband so her control
00:54:47
over Roger became apparent or more apparent as their relationship progressed eventually things got to the
00:54:52
point where she literally chose his clothing for him whoo yeah she decided what they did where they went and she
00:55:00
manipulated him in other more consequent consequential ways for example she knew
00:55:06
that he was struggling to stay sober and at a party in the summer of 1976 she repeated repeatedly excuse me
00:55:13
offered him a drink because she told friends I want to test his willpower oh I don't like that was ominous like
00:55:21
that's the most you know that your husband is sober and you're trying to get him to drink because you're testing
00:55:27
him that's very very nefarious that is mean yeah that's very cruel evil that is dark sided that is dark sided can you
00:55:37
like not can you imagine but like what the [ __ ] no like could never do that to
00:55:42
somebody that's literally cruel that's what that is that's that's on another level yeah that particular part of this
00:55:50
story like really Disturbed me and there are others that are coming up that also
00:55:54
particular Disturbed me but while the man may have been different marjorie's marriage to Roger unfolded almost
00:56:01
exactly like her marriage had with dick Leroy almost from the start they were behind on all their bills their home
00:56:07
mortgage their car payments the horse breeding fee boarding fees and other expenses but that never stopped Marjorie
00:56:14
from spending money on clothing jewelry anything else that she wanted to have of
00:56:19
course and Roger meanwhile was continuing to struggle with his alcoholism and he was becoming
00:56:24
increasingly aggressive when he drank now by the end of 1976 they were actually both under investigation by the
00:56:33
Colorado FBI for multiple instances of fraud related to bad checks that they were writing and the Stables where they
00:56:40
barded their horses was threatening to sell those horses in order to recoup what they owed in months and months of
00:56:47
unpaid fees casual so the FBI was after them and the stable was like we're getting rid of your horses so your
00:56:55
horses are going bye-bye like holy [ __ ] like where is the it's these kind of people that you're like where is it
00:57:02
where's the point that you say I got to fix some things like I got to I got to get this together what is the moment
00:57:09
yeah and at the same time their payment on their newly purchased home their brand new home yeah was almost due and
00:57:18
neither of them had the money to cover the amount so foreclosure was a near certainty oh man like it was bad so
00:57:25
despite their obvious financial and increasingly legal problems Marjorie and Roger just kept on spending kept on
00:57:32
dreaming they that seems like it'll help yeah they talked about buying a new bigger house and starting a horse
00:57:38
breeding and training program you know absolutely with the horses that they no longer had yeah what would stop them you
00:57:44
know you know just the fact that besides everything yeah just the world yeah and
00:57:49
the problem one of them was that while she was still receiving money from her trust most of the funds were going to
00:57:55
marjorie's creditors because she owed so much money which left them almost nothing to spend freely but still
00:58:03
Marjorie insisted they could make their dream of a horse farm come true if only she could access the money that she was
00:58:10
due to inherit upon her mother's death oh no yep so Roger Caldwell finally met his mother-in-law in late May of 1977
00:58:19
when he flew to duth to meet the managers of marjorie's Trust on her behalf oh okay hey I have a meeting with
00:58:26
the people who are in charge of the money that you're giving your daughter nice to meet you that I've never met you
00:58:31
wow wonderful now Roger had gone to the trustees with the request of an advance of
00:58:40
$750,000 come on my friends so that he and Marjorie could build their horse rench in Colorado according to a letter
00:58:46
he presented to the board which was supposedly written by marjorie's son's doctor at the national Asthma Center
00:58:53
Rick Leroy her son had quote severe asthma and cystic fibrosis and his condition required him to live in a
00:58:59
ranch type environment with lots of open space and clean air okay now in truth Rick did not have cystic fibrosis wow
00:59:07
and the board would later learn that the letter was written by Marjorie and was a
00:59:11
fraud that's so [ __ ] up yeah like you lie that's so [ __ ] up a lot of this is
00:59:17
[ __ ] up but that's really [ __ ] up number one you're pretending to be a doctor which that alone is like ma'am
00:59:23
what secondly you're making up that your child has a horrible thing that they don't have wow like are you you kind of
00:59:31
manifest that that happens that's the thing like don't put that [ __ ] into the universe so you can get your [ __ ]
00:59:35
horse farm yeah that you can't pay for damn but whether they suspected at the time or not that that letter was a fraud
00:59:43
they still refused the request and later it was confirmed that that was not real
00:59:47
and just a few weeks later things got even worse for margorie and Roger the bank repossessed their cars their
00:59:55
checking accounts both had zero doar in them because they had spent everything and this is with Elizabeth along the way
01:00:04
like patching up her at every step every step of the way like that's wild yeah it
01:00:09
was getting to the point where like her trust wasn't going to be a lot of money that's why the people were like the
01:00:14
managers were like you can't continue to take all of this because it's running low you're going to lose it all and
01:00:21
creditors were all but beating down their door looking for payments that they weren't going to be able to make
01:00:26
but Marjorie just kept writing bad checks W spending nearly $100,000 between the middle of May and
01:00:35
the middle of June holy [ __ ] spent $100,000 in one month that's impressive on everything from gas and food to
01:00:46
jewelry and guess what's the other thing she bought jewelry let's see jewelry food gas she
01:00:54
loves loves oh um nay I was just going to say horses she bought a new horse nay nay I was like come on I almost I was
01:01:04
like clothing then I was like no she loves horses you're right yep well clothing I'm sure was in there too but
01:01:09
also bought a new horse Nay with a bad check nay yeah So eventually things were just like they they couldn't do anything
01:01:18
anymore their checking accounts were in zero that like this this is a bad situation so they decided
01:01:25
why don't we make our way back to duth and figure things out oh so by the time margerie and Roger arrived in duth
01:01:31
Elizabeth's Health remember she's in her 80s at this point had declined considerably she had suffered a stroke a
01:01:38
few years earlier so she had become partially paralyzed and was mostly confined to her bed and she was also uh
01:01:44
having difficulty speaking so as a result she required Round the Clock medical care which was provided by an
01:01:50
inhome nurse okay a team of them who would you know switch off off shifts and everything yeah now on the evening of
01:01:56
June 26th 1977 Mildred garu I believe is how you say it was thinking about the night that
01:02:04
she had ahead of her and she regretted her choice to work a double shift at Glenn Sheen it was just going to be a
01:02:09
long just a long time like all the nurses she loved mild loved Elizabeth and could have used the additional money
01:02:16
but working overnight and then straight through the next afternoon was a that's a really tiring shift so and then to
01:02:23
make matters worse Elizabeth was expecting a visit from Marjorie that evening which all the
01:02:29
nurses knew always made for a very tense or unpleasant experience so Mildred called her cooworker
01:02:36
66-year-old Velma p pettila and asked if she would be willing to cover her overnight shift like she was like will
01:02:43
you just do my overnight and then I'll relieve you in the afternoon yeah now as one of the older nurses with the agency
01:02:49
velma's husband really didn't like the idea of her working overnight alone in the a huge mansion yeah cuz it's huge oh
01:02:56
my God it's massive you Google this thing man it's wow it's beautiful it's like some Bridgerton [ __ ] literally it's
01:03:04
like bigger than some brigon [ __ ] but so he was like you know I really don't want
01:03:08
you spending the night there like that's just a lot and you know he probably knew
01:03:12
marjerie was coming and he knew that was never good she a fool yeah so he's like
01:03:16
I really don't want you to but despite his objections Velma did agree to cover Mildred shift now the next morning June
01:03:24
7th Mildred arrived at uh at Glen Sheen for her shift around 7: a.m. so she was relieving Velma in the morning yeah and
01:03:32
Mildred who had had her shift covered that morning she ran into the cook Prudence who had also recently arrived
01:03:39
and was getting ready to get breakfast together now Mildred had expected to be met by Velma and she was surprised when
01:03:45
Pruden said that she hadn't seen Velma or Elizabeth yet oh no she was like oh you haven't seen them yet like that's
01:03:51
weird so she started climbing the stairs that led to Elizabeth's room and Mildred
01:03:56
was stopped abruptly on the stairs when she saw what appeared to be a pair of legs laying motionless on the landing
01:04:02
between the first and second floor so she approached slowly and ended up discovering Velma petla sitting half on
01:04:10
the window seat before the picture window she' been like propped up on the window seat at first Mildred was like
01:04:18
did she stop to rest or did she fall like I she couldn't tell she later told reporters I thought to myself velma's
01:04:25
resting but then I realized that was strange not on the stairway and Velma isn't the resting kind now as she got
01:04:32
closer the way in which velma's body was twisted suggested that something was wrong oh no and then Mildred noticed a
01:04:39
large pool of blood that had crusted onto the carpet in front of Velma oh so her eyes darted from the floor back to
01:04:47
her coworker and that was when she finally realized that velma's face was quote a rust colored mask of dry blood
01:04:55
oh my God and it was that blood was appearing to come from a large gash in velma's head and she was not supposed to
01:05:03
work and she was the oldest nurse the oldest nurse and her husband didn't want her to go mhm oh like tragic tragic
01:05:10
anyways and then you add all of that onto it it just adds layers now on the floor in front of elma's body was a
01:05:17
bloody brass Candlestick at that moment presumably the weapon used to end velma's life and
01:05:23
would be confirmed holy [ __ ] she was beaten with a brass Candlestick my God so now fully panicked now she's only
01:05:33
gotten halfway up the stairs there's still a second flight before she finds Elizabeth know she's sitting there going
01:05:38
what the hell is going on oh yeah so she's fully panicked runs up the second flight of stairs and bursts into
01:05:44
Elizabeth's room obviously hoping to find the woman unharmed inside the room was in shambles dresser drawers had been
01:05:51
pulled out and upended jewelry box boxes had been emptied and thrown to the floor
01:05:56
and Elizabeth was lying face up on her bed with the sheets pulled back and two satin pillows were covering her face
01:06:03
she'd been smothered oh my god there was a large bruise on her left arm like somebody had grabbed her tightly and
01:06:10
Mildred noticed that a gold watch and a diamond and sapphire ring that Elizabeth
01:06:15
wore every day were missing oh that's awful yeah so she raced down the stairs and shouted for Prudence The Cook to
01:06:23
call the police who ended up arriving a short time later now based on the way that the scene was
01:06:28
discovered duth police detective Ernest Grahams theorized that there was some kind of robbery and the murders had
01:06:35
occurred sometime he believed at that point between 11:00 p.m. the previous night and 7:00 a.m. that morning when
01:06:42
Mildred arrived for her shift okay now Graham suspected that the burglar had gotten into the house through a broken
01:06:48
window that investigators discovered in the basement and then they figured that whoever it was made their way up the
01:06:54
stairs where they encountered and ultimately killed Velma by bludgeoning her with a Candlestick that is brutal so
01:07:02
brutal grams told reporters she fell about seven steps to a landing crawled or was placed at top a window seat and
01:07:08
died there oh and then they said or they theorized from there the killer made their way to Elizabeth's room where they
01:07:14
easily killed the 83-year-old 83 years old she lived to 83 just giving giving giving giving and this is how she went
01:07:22
was smothered in her bed and had her rings taken off her like and her bedroom was looted and once this culprit had
01:07:30
taken whatever jewelry was to be found in the bedroom they said the killer stole velma's twoo 1976 Ford Granada and
01:07:37
fled the scene that is [ __ ] up so they stole a car too now Dr vulker vulker goldshmid the St Louis uh Louis Louis
01:07:48
County Medical Examiner he arrived a few hours later and started his preliminary
01:07:53
uh examination of the bodies now he immediately noticed unusual elements of the scene as soon as he knelt beside
01:08:00
velma's body first there was a nylon stocking wrapped so tightly around her left wrist that it had to be cut off
01:08:08
what mhm there were also quote tattoo like puncture wounds on her face forearm and finger but why they were there and
01:08:17
what had caused them were a mystery at that point and this is Velma this is Velma wow in her uh bedroom Dr gold
01:08:24
Schmidt discovered the nurse's log where almost all significant activity was routinely recorded and the log indicated
01:08:30
that Velma had started her shift around 11:00 p.m. just like expected and noted several times that she'd moved Elizabeth
01:08:37
in the hours that followed the final note was entered around 2:30 a.m. Oh So based on the log Dr gold Schmidt
01:08:43
narrowed the time of death somewhere between 2:30 uh a.m. and 7:00 a.m. that's good to have that yeah great so
01:08:50
that sounded sarcastic but it wasn't yeah great I know I don't know why sounded like that we [ __ ] evidence
01:08:57
that's really nice hell yeah really great for you I don't know where that came from I
01:09:04
really meant yeah yeah I really meant yeah I really meant great later that afternoon excuse me
01:09:11
when the bodies were transferred to St Luke's Hospital Dr gold Schmid was able to conduct the autopsies at that point
01:09:17
and that confirmed what everybody already assumed velma's autopsy was conducted by assistant medical exam Dr
01:09:24
Stanley Irving and he concluded that her cause of death was blunt force injury to
01:09:28
the head and could have been the result of any of the 23 wounds caused by blows from the Candlestick
01:09:36
23 mhm she had been hit so many times that her skull had fractured quote into four quadrants and broke her jaw on both
01:09:45
sides oh my God yep now in addition to that I mentioned small tattoo like puncture wounds that she had those were
01:09:54
determined to have come from exposed Nails on the bottom of one of her shoes what the [ __ ] meaning somebody had
01:10:02
used her own shoe to beat her what mhm now that was it was never really discovered like what the nails in the
01:10:11
bottom of her shoe were about and oh my God that's really the only info that we could find on that but years later while
01:10:17
preparing for the trial this is interesting someone in the district attorney's office noted that the photos
01:10:23
taken at the scene and those taken during the autopsy showed that velma's watch stopped at 2:50 a.m. oo so they
01:10:31
were able to realize that later that never actually happens like that's wild it did I I don't know why it maybe like
01:10:37
in the fight yeah in the freight but however that wasn't noted in 1977 so the time of death at the time remained
01:10:45
somewhat between the hours of 2:30 and 7:00 a.m. huh but once they got ready for the trial they were able to narrow
01:10:51
it so Dr gold Schmid conducted Elizabeth autopsy uh and he was accompanied by duth crime scene photographer Waller
01:10:58
Danto uh among the first things he noticed were the number of bruises on Elizabeth's body despite having been
01:11:05
partially Paralyzed by her stroke Dr goldmit concluded that El Elizabeth had very much attempted to fight off her
01:11:12
killer oh that's awful the best she could and there were peal hemorrhaging or hemorrhages in her eyes and that and
01:11:20
the coloring her uh coloring of her head neck and upper torso indicated that obviously the cause of death was
01:11:27
Suffocation yeah there were also contri constriction marks on her finger and left wrist which indicated that the
01:11:34
jewelry had been removed from her body after she had died which is just to think that somebody smothered her and
01:11:41
then took her jewelry off of her dead body oh is just beyond but what the but they're obviously like they're obviously
01:11:50
piece of [ __ ] cowards to begin with but they kept the pillows over face yeah isn't that interesting cuz you know that
01:11:56
it's you should be [ __ ] ashamed of yourself like you can't even bear to woman isn't it's also just so so [ __ ]
01:12:03
up yeah it adds a layer of just so back at glennen a large number of officers obviously had been assigned
01:12:11
to guard the crime scene while technicians were making their way through the massive estate I can't
01:12:16
imagine having that be your job and obviously you want to find out who murdered these two women and this is H
01:12:25
job so the obvious assumption was that both women had been killed during the commission of a robbery and actually it
01:12:31
wouldn't be the first time that a home like Glenn Sheen was robbed in the area uh seven years earlier Elizabeth's
01:12:37
sister-in-law actually Dorothy had shot and killed a 17-year-old Intruder who had tried to break into her home not far
01:12:44
from Glenn Sheen oh damn grars told the Press of the current situation an empty jewelry box was on the floor and the
01:12:51
room was ransacked so he was indicating that that investigator strongly suspected a robbery gone wrong but
01:12:57
unfortunately aside from the missing jewelry and broken basement window the crime scene wasn't giving any further
01:13:02
Clues damn now during a canvas of nearby houses multiple local children told police that they had seen a man they
01:13:10
described as white thin with long hair and wearing a blue jean jacket huh in the area hours before the murder so they
01:13:17
had all seen him and later that afternoon police were able to locate that man after briefly detaining
01:13:23
questioning him though it was determined that he had a valid reason for being on
01:13:27
the property and it was unrelated a now velma's stolen car which investigators hoped would lead them to the killer also
01:13:35
turned to be out uh also turned out to be of little use later that afternoon airport police found the keys to the
01:13:42
Ford Granada in one of the airport trash bins what isn't that crazy the [ __ ] and
01:13:49
the car itself was later discovered in one of the airport parking lots free of evidence or leads aside from one single
01:13:56
fingerprint discovered on the driver's window that's it holy [ __ ] and in the days that followed duth uh duth police
01:14:03
received calls from citizens reporting sightings of the stolen car quote between 1: and 3:00 a.m. on the morning
01:14:09
of the murder but unfortunately the callers quote weren't exactly sure where they remembered spotting the car oh so
01:14:16
it was just like super helpful isn't it wild that even back then but especially now you always get caught oh yeah like
01:14:25
no matter what like you think like in this on this giant you know in this whole country mhm you could hide a car
01:14:33
or hide something and how would anyone ever find it it's like you're going to get caught you always get caught they
01:14:39
found the keys in an airport trash bin you know how many [ __ ] trash bins they probably had to look through wild
01:14:44
it's just always mindboggling to me and especially back then what they were able
01:14:48
to do like we're talking in the 70s so yeah now as detectives on the case got more and more frustrated about the
01:14:54
limited amount of forensic evidence at the scene and the lack of any suspect who would want to kill these two women
01:15:00
yeah an interesting picture of Elizabeth's daughter Marjorie was beginning to emerge you don't say yeah
01:15:05
isn't that crazy when the Caldwell's attorney because remember she's a Caldwell now uh when their attorney
01:15:10
David Arnold called margorie to let her know that her mother had been murdered Marjorie reacted as one would expect in
01:15:17
such a situation sobbing and asking a series of relevant questions but as the conversation went on the the lawyer
01:15:24
there noticed a change in her tone from hysterical to very businesslike as she went through the checklist of things
01:15:31
that needed to be done for the funeral and then she insisted she would need him to wire her money for the expenses ah
01:15:37
there it is right back to money right on it now just days of learn uh uh after learning of her mother's murder Marjorie
01:15:44
put in an offer on a $300,000 Ranch in Colorado Jesus Christ which um struck investigators as strange you don't you
01:15:52
know what I'm glad that these idiots do these things like right off the bat cuz it's
01:15:59
like thank you for just like showing us exactly who you are but it's like my God
01:16:04
like what like are you kidding because remember they had been in dire streets before her mother had been killed and
01:16:10
now suddenly she has $300,000 to offer what's that about yeah so investigators were like hm that's weird that's
01:16:16
suspicious not suspicious and later that afternoon during a conversation with Roger on the phone marjorie's cousin and
01:16:23
exeutive of Elizabeth's estate Tom conden could hear Marjorie screaming at Roger in the background saying that her
01:16:29
cousin's Bill and Vera Dunbar had quote arranged to kill her mother for the money wow so now she's like screaming at
01:16:38
her husband that her cousin did it to get money wow and he was like I'm just the executive of the he's like you know
01:16:46
what just I'm just out here so on the morning of June 29th detective sat down to interview margorie and Roger at the
01:16:52
duth uh police station cuz they were like we'd like to ask you so many questions so many questions now margorie
01:16:58
gave rambling and very contradictory answers to the investigators questions but detectives as she was pulling that
01:17:05
[ __ ] noticed that the top of Roger's right hand was swollen huh and he had a cut on the right side of his lip shut up
01:17:12
remember Elizabeth fought back oh shut the [ __ ] up so when they asked how it happened Roger couldn't give them an
01:17:19
answer he didn't even try to he just couldn't he didn't even come up with the story he was just like he just like I
01:17:24
don't know that's weird I know he like I just woke up one day and my hand was swollen and my lip was split it happens
01:17:29
now at the end of the interview the detectives asked if they would be willing to take a polygraph test like
01:17:34
the rest of the family had volunteered to do yeah and both of them declined oh boy now while police were
01:17:42
interviewing the couple a separate set of investigators were uh searching their hotel room ah uh at the duth r uh Rison
01:17:49
I believe where they found a receipt dated June 27th from host of Minneapolis a gift shop located in the
01:17:59
airport imagine that wow it's like guys I mean I'm glad I'm glad they're this dumb but
01:18:07
damn excuse me I was going to say when when detectiv spoke to the clerk at host of
01:18:15
Minneapolis they verified that a man matching Roger's description purchased a garment bag on the day of the murder huh
01:18:22
now days later that same clerk would pick Roger out of a photo array and identify him as the man who purchased
01:18:28
the bag Jesus now the receipt and verification from the clerk at the shop prompted investigators to shift their
01:18:35
focus from you know the burglary gone wrong Theory to huh to the possibility that Ro Roger and margerie there might
01:18:42
be involved in the robbery and murder it's like huh maybe inheritance is a thing here maybe I'm like you guys
01:18:47
didn't [ __ ] think that immediately like come on like hello that wasn't on your radar now their suspicions were St
01:18:52
strengthened a couple days later when a hotel clerk in Colorado alerted them to an envelope addressed to Roger and
01:18:59
postmarked June 27th from duth so once they obtained a warrant investigators opened the envelope and found that it
01:19:05
contained a 1700 year-old Byzantine coin determined to be one of the antique coins stolen from a memorabilia case in
01:19:14
Elizabeth's bedroom holy [ __ ] at Glen Sheen So based on the mounting evidence against them police executed a search
01:19:22
warrant at the calwell home on July 5th oh you don't say and during the uh execution of that warrant they found the
01:19:30
garment bag that had been bought at host of Minneapolis in the airport my God they're just like here it is here it
01:19:36
literally is along with several items known to have been stolen from Glen Sheen including a plastic panty hose
01:19:43
container that had been filled with jewelry stolen from Elizabeth's bedroom wow uh-huh and they're just going to
01:19:51
sleep just just you know like just know I just I can't I can't at all the evidence
01:19:58
collected at the house proved to be sufficient for a warrant for Roger's arrest and later that night just after
01:20:05
midnight Roger Caldwell was arrested for the murders of Elizabeth conden and Velma ptil good petla excuse me now on
01:20:13
July 8th 1977 Roger Caldwell appeared in a St Louis St Louis County Court where he was arraigned on two counts of
01:20:20
first-degree murder now meanwhile margorie who hadn't been charged with anything just yet hired Minneapolis
01:20:27
criminal attorney Ronald mesh Basher to present her during the proceedings in a statement to the Press mesh Basher said
01:20:35
that Marjorie was considering possible lawsuits against investigating authorities and the Press whoa he
01:20:41
explained the Press coverage in many cases has concerned her they paint a grim picture of her alleged involvement
01:20:47
in this matter oh boy it's like her mother's stolen jewelry was in her home along with like a 1700 year old coin
01:20:54
that's not a great look for her not a great look for her now while her husband was being arraigned for the murders of
01:21:00
her mother in Velma marjerie was in Minneapolis scheming for a way to get herself out of trouble according to mesh
01:21:07
Basher margorie needed to stay in Minneapolis to care her uh care for her son who was quote suffering from a very
01:21:13
serious asthmatic condition oh we're still MH still playing that for that he I think he did have asthma he just
01:21:19
didn't have cystic fibrosis now he also explained that she may need to ultimately return to
01:21:25
Colorado for the sake of his health AKA outrun the the police like she might need to run away from you they're going
01:21:33
to come get you yeah now whatever her reasons were for avoiding the press and authorities marjerie wasn't entirely
01:21:38
wrong about how she was being portrayed in news reports as soon as reporters learned of the investigation into Roger
01:21:45
and margerie it didn't take long for them to dig up all of the information regard uh related to their criminal
01:21:51
investigations and remember those fraud charges in Colorado yeah and there were also several family family members
01:21:59
family members family members family members who confirmed reports of margery's estrangement from the rest of
01:22:05
the family and they were all quick to add that marjerie quote felt alienated from the family for reasons that she
01:22:13
created wow yeah uhhuh okay now on July 14th detectives in Colorado located a safety deposit deposit I'm really losing
01:22:23
it here you guys dep Deposit they located a safety deposit box at Golden State Bank opened by Roger on June 28th
01:22:33
the day after everything happened now among the documents in the Box detectives discovered a handwritten
01:22:39
notorized will dated June 24th written by Marjorie giving Roger her share of her grandfather's estate upon her
01:22:47
mother's death whoa assuming it was all legal the document meant that in the event of Elizabeth Conan's death Roger
01:22:55
Caldwell could receive roughly $2.5 million holy [ __ ] how strange that's really wacky mhm that just a couple days
01:23:04
before she died you had the wherewithal to write that coincidences coincidence you know that's the thing now given that
01:23:11
it was dated just a few a few days before the murders were committed marjorie's handwritten will looked to
01:23:16
detectives like a very good motive for murder sure did now a month later on August 5th Roger was indicted by a grand
01:23:23
jury for the murders of Elizabeth and Velma and among the strongest evidence in the indictment was the newly written
01:23:30
will which may have implicated marjerie into the plot to murder her mother and probably by no coincidence just a few
01:23:37
days after Roger appearance in court Marjorie went to the Minnesota Police Department to report that a man quote
01:23:44
dressed like a cop had attacked her with a razor at her son's apartment telling her to stay away from duth and to not
01:23:51
help her husband okay Marjorie said that she had seen the man before and she believed that he was
01:23:57
a duth police detective wow and she also claimed that the F the phone in her son's apartment where she was staying
01:24:04
had been tapped and she had been followed by a man driving a lime green car with a pointy front Okay so now
01:24:11
she's basically trying to say like you guys are intimidating me yeah which I don't know if that's true or not
01:24:16
personally I doubt it Marjorie did have slashes on the left side of her face her
01:24:21
left breast and her left older jeez but the Doctor Who treated her wounds at Mercy Hospital told investigators that
01:24:27
he believed they were self-inflicted EK so yeah now on August 11th investigators
01:24:34
released a statement about margery's supposed attack telling the Press we have no reason at this time to believe
01:24:39
that an assault was perpetrated on Miss Caldwell as reported now the police were very vague
01:24:45
in their responses but a spokesperson for the Department did explain that the cause had been unfounded meaning that it
01:24:52
had been investigated and was proven that the crime either did not happen or was not attempted oh no they said why
01:24:58
you always exactly that's the thing margery's claims about being attacked were very clearly an attempt to
01:25:05
undermine the investigation into the murders and the Public's faith in the duth police department but as soon as
01:25:14
she realized they didn't believe her story and that she could have been held accountable for making false reports
01:25:19
yeah she told her lawyer to request that the uh investigation into her report be
01:25:24
discontinued oh she said you know what never mind that happened but don't investigate it yeah don't no don't do
01:25:30
that girly pop don't do that so Roger appeared in court again on February 27th where he pleaded not guilty to both
01:25:38
charges of uh charges of first-degree murder and a trial date was set for early April now due to the prominence of
01:25:45
the case and the heavy coverage that it was getting in the press the judge Jack Litman he ended up moving the trial from
01:25:51
duth to brainer Minnesota mhm and he explained the decision saying the kden name here has been known for uh excuse
01:25:58
me the kden name has been known here for a century and then he noted the numerous
01:26:03
Street schools and other landmarks that were uh bearing the family's name and added that the famili familiarity I can
01:26:10
never say that that's a hard one it is could potentially pre uh Prejudice jurors okay so he was like you'll get an
01:26:17
unfair trial basic yeah like that won't be that won't be sick for you yes so in brainer the child finally began on May
01:26:23
9th 1978 with prosecutor John DeSanto summing up the case in his opening statements he told the D told the jury
01:26:31
these murders were motivated crimes and he said Roger was experiencing an quote almost unimaginable buildup of financial
01:26:38
pressures and believed that the money from The Inheritance would solve all of his Pro uh problems makes sense yep and
01:26:45
over the course of four weeks and testimony from 103 Witnesses the prosecution laid out their case against
01:26:51
Roger mainly focusing on the extent of his and marjorie's financial problems fraud and incredible debt the jury was
01:26:59
also shown a large amount of forensic evidence including fingerprints and hair found in the house that matched Roger
01:27:06
Caldwell oo the jewelry found in Roger uh Roger's possession which was Elizabeth's and had been stolen from her
01:27:13
bedroom it's pretty open and shut and the will that had been written up by marjerie just days before the murders
01:27:19
yeah it's not looking good taken together Danto told the jury that Will was a carrot not too hard to
01:27:25
swallow she like what okay I don't know you're like so you're saying I was like what exactly does that
01:27:33
mean sir I'm not really sure I don't know it's we'll take it though sure so Roger defense attorney put carrots aside
01:27:39
Douglas Thompson just tried to undermine the state's Case by calling the key testimony given on behalf of the
01:27:44
prosecution into question for example they said the cuts on Roger hands and face that investigators believe to have
01:27:51
been caused during the attack on Elizabeth could have come from anywhere yeah of course he didn't remember where
01:27:56
but they could have come from anywhere again who doesn't wake up with abrasions yeah all the time like do I wake up with
01:28:03
random bruises yes do I wake up with a split lip uh unexplicably no no never happened to me so Thompson argued that
01:28:10
the small injury above uh Roger's lip was actually a cold sore not a wound um don't be rude okay yeah he's got he's
01:28:18
got a cold sword investigators were like there's a difference between like a split in a cold sore but okay absolutely
01:28:24
now while much of his time was spent undermining the prosecutions argument Thompson's primary tactic was to shift
01:28:30
blame away from his client and toward margorie in his cross-examination of uh the Caldwell's former attorney David
01:28:36
Arnold Thompson kept a tight focus on the fact that the vast majority of the financial problems were the result of
01:28:43
margery's impulsive Reckless spending but the problem was that Marjorie had an alibi which placed her in Colorado on
01:28:51
the morning of the murder o slippery Margery slippery Margery and the forensic evidence suggested that
01:28:57
whoever had killed Velma and lifted her body onto the window seat would have required considerable strength there you
01:29:04
go so while you may want to point the finger there at Marjorie I think it might have been Roger who was there that
01:29:11
morning I think you might be right so compared to the robust case presented by the prosecution Thompson's case was
01:29:18
brief and pretty weak yeah he just relied more on margery's poor reput reputation and public speculation than
01:29:26
on evidence of his actual client's innocence yeah he was like don't pay attention to any of that because it's
01:29:31
like that's great like you're not wrong Marjorie does have a pretty bad reputation but she's not on trial right
01:29:36
now your client is and her like everything isn't found at the crime scene right now exactly now closing
01:29:43
arguments were presented on July 5th during which prosecutor John DeSanto addressed Thompson's attempt to deflect
01:29:49
blame onto Margery he told the jury that if Marjorie was involved at all it was in creating the will which he called A
01:29:56
desperate attempt to persuade Roger Caldwell to go to duth and commit murder ah he reminded the jury though that this
01:30:03
case was about the act of murder and in that regard the evidence pointed directly at Roger Caldwell so the jury
01:30:10
deliberated for three days before finally returning guilty verdicts on both counts of first-degree murder you
01:30:17
guilty guilty guilty when the verdict was read in the courtroom Roger turned to the jury and said Softly You're wrong
01:30:25
just turned to them and said you're wrong and then I wish one of them just said no I'm not maybe they did I I
01:30:32
didn't find that but they may have incorrect wrong you're wrong you are Imagine they just kept going back and
01:30:40
they just and then the judge had to be like okay he's like this is a murder trial chill so outside of the courtroom
01:30:44
John De Santos indicated to the press that while Roger's trial had come to an end the casee was far from concluded he
01:30:51
he told them this was just the end of step one and when asked if he intended to go after margorie next he replied
01:30:57
probably that's all I can say right now wow that's casual I love the D just like
01:31:01
yeah probs yeah probably I'll see how it all shakes out you know now two days later on July 10th Roger was sentenced
01:31:07
to two consecutive life sentences for the murders of Elizabeth conden and Velma petla and sent to Still Water
01:31:13
State Prison to begin serving his sentence bye Roger the next day margorie was arrested on two counts of
01:31:20
first-degree murder and two counts of conspiracy to commit murder I love that he just said probably and then
01:31:25
immediately it was like and here you go def now on August 18th 1978 a grand jury
01:31:31
was convened and margerie was indicted on two counts of aiding and abetting murder in the first degree and two
01:31:36
counts of conspiracy to commit murder bye bye you would think in the I don't know in the indictment the prosecutor
01:31:45
alleged that Margery quote coaxed her husband into killing her mother by signing over to him 3 days before the
01:31:50
murder her interest in one of the trusts worth $2.6 million with regard to velma's murder
01:31:56
the prosecution argu argued that quote her death should have been foreseeable as a probable consequence of trying to
01:32:03
kill conden oh God it's so awful like the the I mean obviously Elizabeth's murder is brutal and awful and tragic in
01:32:12
its own way of course and then but like Velma was just like wrong place wrong time she was just collateral damage it's
01:32:18
like that is so tragic horrible but they said because like her death was foreseeable and a probable consequence
01:32:26
margerie should be held equally responsible yeah and just like the previous case the considerable media
01:32:31
coverage presented a challenge in trying it so margery's case too was moved from
01:32:37
St Louis St Louis to Dakota County in January okay with the jury selection scheduled to begin in early of uh April
01:32:45
1979 now opening statements began on April 27th with John Danto telling the jury that Marjorie had convinced her
01:32:52
husband to murder Elizabeth her mother in order to access her inheritance and in a case closely
01:32:59
resembling the one that he made against Roger Caldwell DeSanto gave a detailed description of margery's troubled and
01:33:05
troubling Financial history her fraud attempts and he pointed specifically to a recent conversation she'd had with an
01:33:12
acquaintance where she said quote the only way to get out of my financial troubles is my mother's
01:33:19
death wow like girl Wow first of all who the [ __ ] says that and second of all who
01:33:28
the [ __ ] says that and then acts out on it and who hears that and is just like
01:33:34
well I guess I'll go about my life now like I'd be like what the [ __ ] luckily that person was like hey she said to me
01:33:39
thank goodness but given the amount of detailed information the prosecutor had dug up related to marjorie's fraud and
01:33:44
financial problems and the fact that a total of 167 Witnesses were called the dragged on for 2 and a half months D
01:33:54
Santo's argument was exactly or essentially the same that he had presented against Roger calwell she
01:34:00
convinced her husband to murder her mom in exchange for a significant portion of
01:34:03
her inheritance then conspired to cover up her involvement with a series of lies
01:34:08
and deceitful attempts to place the blame on Roger now for his part margery's defense attorney Ronald mesh
01:34:15
Basher took a similar approach as to that of Roger's attorney which like I don't know why he would do that he just
01:34:21
lost yeah it didn't seem to work out but he suggested that the crime could have been committed by any one of the other
01:34:26
family members who stood to inherit money from Elizabeth's estate it's like were all of them in the same kind of
01:34:33
Dire Straits that on let's like I mean I know you got to do your job but like that was weak really now one of mesh
01:34:40
besser's primary targets was Elizabeth's nephew Thomas kden also the executive of
01:34:44
her will who hired a private detective in the weeks following Elizabeth's death o that was probably to find out who
01:34:51
murdered her in my opinion yeah I would say so right but mesh feser repeatedly reminded the jury Ferman who was the
01:34:58
private detective or one of his associates was conveniently nearby each time a piece of evidence appearing to
01:35:03
incriminate the caldwells was discovered by police huh so basically he was trying
01:35:08
to say that like Thomas or the private investigator was like planting yeah planting evidence and giving it to the
01:35:17
wow to the investigators but it's like did they plant the evidence inside of margerie and Roger's home yeah exactly
01:35:25
at the airport that's the thing that kills I'm like yeah okay and then they went and told the guy like point this
01:35:30
specific man out in a lineup like what what a conspiracy theory yeah I don't think so so essentially his approach to
01:35:35
marjorie's defense was just to create enough doubt in the minds of the jury that they simply couldn't find her
01:35:40
guilty Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and it worked oh no it worked on yep on July 21st 1979 after just just one day of
01:35:53
deliberation the jury returned verdicts of not guilty on all counts I'm shocked isn't that crazy when
01:36:02
reporters asked one of the jurors why they voted to acquit she responded oh I'm not saying but it was all Marge and
01:36:08
Mr mesh Basher Marge wow just Marge your girl you know Marge later that same jury
01:36:16
member called Marjorie and asked her for an autograph for her mother I'm sorry what the jury member called
01:36:25
margorie and was like hey my mom's a big fan can I get an autograph I'm not sure what to say about
01:36:33
that what is there to be a fan of I'm not sure so when asked whether the outcome in margery's case called for a
01:36:40
new trial for Roger uh John Des Santos strongly disagreed and said I think the jury said we didn't prove margerie
01:36:46
Caldwell did it I have no doubt whatsoever that margorie Caldwell is guilty wow we couldn't prove it but
01:36:52
she's guilty oh that's awful yeah but don't worry the rest of her life was not great okay but before we get there on
01:36:59
September 20th 1979 a postconviction relief hearing was held in duth where Roger Caldwell sought a new trial based
01:37:07
on a handwriting analysis that uncover uh uncovered during marjorie's trial that could have influenced the outcome
01:37:13
in his case huh mhm on April 21st 1980 after seriously considering the arguments judge man determined that the
01:37:22
evidence presented in margery's uh trial wouldn't have swayed the jury in Rogers
01:37:27
case so his request for a new trial was declined by however on appeal the state supreme court disagreed with that judge
01:37:34
and did overturn Roger's guilty verdict what citing the significance of questionable fingerprint evidence used
01:37:41
to convict him come on now on September 1st 1982 after serving more than 5 years
01:37:47
in prison Roger was released from Stillwater pending a new new date for retrial of the case now rather than go
01:37:55
through the entire case again DeSanto offered Roger a plea deal where he would plead guilty to two counts of second
01:38:01
deegree murder and make a full confession in exchange for a sentence of time served what so Roger aged agreed to
01:38:10
the deal but unfortunately his confession didn't offer any new insight into the murders or information that
01:38:16
they could have used to go after margorie so they both kind of got away with this now 6 years later on May 18th
01:38:26
1988 Roger actually ended up ending his own life at his childhood home in Pennsylvania oh he had been suffering
01:38:33
from rheumatoid arthritis and alcoholism for many years which contributed significantly to his depression and I
01:38:40
don't know maybe he was living with some guilt wow but in the Years following his
01:38:45
release he lived in constant fear of being reincar reincarceration he struggled to maintain
01:38:52
employment and any kind of Independence because of that damn and something that was particularly difficult for him he
01:38:57
said was that Marjorie completely abandoned him once he went to prison oh my God and provided no financial support
01:39:04
of any kind [ __ ] he told a friend shortly before his death it really offends me that she totally abandoned me
01:39:11
it just isn't right you don't treat people that way as thickheaded and naive I was it's clear she was always lying to
01:39:16
me yeah so she just like he potentially murdered her [ __ ] mother like personally I believe he did holy [ __ ]
01:39:26
and then she just was like thanks bye I am just after he went to prison for like
01:39:31
5 years I was just like oh well that's that and didn't get anything that she had promised him allegedly now after her
01:39:38
acquittal Marjorie resumed and ramped up her suspicious Behavior compulsive lying
01:39:43
and fraud in ways that no one could have expected just after the trial five of her seven children filed a civil lawsuit
01:39:51
suit against her in an attempt to disinherit her from her inheritance on the grounds that they had evidence of
01:39:59
her involvement in the murders whoa now the lawsuit was settled out of court in July 1983 so I don't know what happened
01:40:06
with that in March of 1981 Marjorie visited her friend Helen Hagen at the twin Birch nursing home where she was
01:40:14
seen feeding Helen just prior to leaving the facility the next day Helen slipped
01:40:18
into a coma and died days later on March 30th after margerie or excuse me after Helen's death marjerie started dating
01:40:26
Helen's husband oh my God stop Wall-E and they eventually married in August despite the fact that margorie was still
01:40:35
legally married to Roger Caldwell what the [ __ ] the next year margorie and Wally's home in Mound Minnesota uh
01:40:43
burned down under mysterious circumstances now the second home to have burned down after a lengthy
01:40:49
investigation margerie was arrest arrested for the arson and in January of 1984 a jury found her guilty of arson
01:40:56
and insurance fraud for which she was sentenced to 21 months at the state women's prison in
01:41:02
Minnesota uh she appealed the verdict arguing that the prosecutor had insufficient evidence for a conviction
01:41:09
but the Minnesota State uh excuse me Minnesota court of appeals disagreed and they did uphold upholds her conviction
01:41:16
holy [ __ ] so she was released in October of uh 1986 and she and her husband Wally
01:41:22
that she had taken after Helen's death yeah they moved to Arizona where she continued her pattern of excessive and
01:41:30
impulsive spending and fraud police there in Arizona suspected margerie of being involved in several arson arson
01:41:38
cases and in October of 1992 she went to trial on October 29th 1992 another jury
01:41:46
convicted her of arson and sentenced her to 15 years in prison what the [ __ ] but before beginning her sentence she
01:41:53
was uh she convinced the judge to allow her one day to return home and help her husband deal with their Affairs the next
01:42:01
day her husband was found dead in the couple's home shut up and margorie was arrested for his
01:42:08
murder oh my God unfortunately the medical examiner determined the cause of death to be a
01:42:15
drug overdose and admitted that it could have been the result of suicide so the murder charges were dropped I'm sorry
01:42:23
how does this woman have all this [ __ ] happen around her and no one's connecting any dots like they're trying
01:42:28
but she just keeps like skipping out on it so she served her sentence for the Aron that 15-year sentence um at the
01:42:36
Arizona State woman's prison in Goodyear Arizona but she was granted earned release on January 5th 2005 so she did
01:42:44
not serve her uh full sentence and after her release she decided to remain in Tucson where she continued the pattern
01:42:51
of behavior that plagued her for nearly her entire life including arrests for theft and fraud as recent as
01:42:58
2007 what and that is the story of the murders of Elizabeth conden and Velma petla and Marjorie wow who just did a
01:43:09
whole bunch of [ __ ] and like kind of got caught but never got held accountable
01:43:15
wow yeah that's unbelievable isn't that a harrowing tale that is a harrowing tale
01:43:23
she may have murdered 1 two three four people and never spent time in prison for murder wow isn't that never went to
01:43:34
prison for murder I am just like Shook and may have killed four people allegedly wow [ __ ] what a
01:43:43
harrowing damn so there's that for our return from the Paranormal wow okay and and poor Elizabeth and poor Velma and
01:43:52
poor velma's husband yeah just like this and poor yeah and like Roger Caldwell I
01:43:59
don't know about him they're just out there trying to do their best yeah not Roger OB not Roger I mean felma andma
01:44:05
and Elizabeth yeah and Helen probably yeah just really really tragic case she is a dangerous woman yeah yeah D but um
01:44:14
we hope you keep listening yeah and we hope you keep it weird but not we that you pull any kind of marjerie because
01:44:21
margorie is scary yeah bye [Music] bye