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The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast

November 02, 2023 / 01:44:52

This episode covers the murder of Elizabeth Conden and her nurse Velma Petla, the complex life of Elizabeth, and her daughter Marjorie's questionable actions. The hosts, Elina and Ash, discuss Elizabeth's charitable life, her close relationship with her father, and the tragic events leading to her death. They also explore Marjorie's tumultuous relationships, her financial struggles, and the eventual murder charges against her and her husband Roger Caldwell.

Elizabeth Conden, born in 1894, was known for her philanthropy and dedication to community service. After her father's unexpected death, she took on the responsibility of caring for her mother and became a respected figure in Duluth, Minnesota. Despite her wealth, Elizabeth lived modestly and focused on helping others.

Marjorie, Elizabeth's daughter, faced challenges in her upbringing, leading to her impulsive behavior and financial irresponsibility. After marrying Roger Caldwell, their financial troubles escalated, ultimately resulting in the murders of Elizabeth and Velma. The episode details the investigation, the trial, and the eventual verdicts.

The hosts reflect on the tragic outcomes for Elizabeth and Velma, as well as the legal consequences for Marjorie and Roger. The story highlights themes of family dynamics, mental health, and the impact of financial strain.

Listeners are left with a sense of unease regarding Marjorie's actions and the unresolved questions surrounding her involvement in the murders.

TLDR

Elizabeth Conden's tragic murder and her daughter's dark legacy unfold in this chilling episode.

Episode

1:44:52
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hey weirdos I'm Elina I'm Ash and this is [Music] morbid it is guys we've officially
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wrapped up spooky season and now our regular theme song is back happy November we thought that would be fun to
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do for spooky season some people liked it some people did did not kind of um kind of a tossup we tried something out
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yeah glad we did it it was a great experience it was just our regular music backwards to be like satanic it was just
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like metal metal and scary but we're back to regularly scheduled programming it's weird right now to tell you guys
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that I hope you have a fantastic Halloween because um like I or I hope that you had
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a fantastic Halloween because right now Halloween hasn't even happened yet that's true but by the time you listen
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to this I think it will be over right I don't know how our schedule Works ever to be honest here's my transparent
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moment I never know when an episode is coming out so I just have to do them like really far in advance exactly yeah
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oh okay so if you're on wonder plus right now then it then it has not been Halloween yet but you're if you're not
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on wonder Plus happy Halloween happy post happy Halloween happy had a happy Halloween
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yep there you go and I hope you enjoyed our exist episode yeah Rachel was great she's wicked cool she was fascinating
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and we don't have any entities that she saw attached to us so that's a win I love hearing that and we've had some
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really cool I love hearing that I really liked that uh cuz when she described the
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entities I was like I don't tell me I don't have one of those attached to me right now when you asked I was nervous I
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like wanted you to ask but then I was like what if she like [ __ ] our world up right now she's like actually I see one
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of the worst ones attached to back right now you have uh everything attach all the entities I was scared sometimes it
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feels that way but yeah sometimes I do we've had a good few weeks we got to see our our girlies Karen and Sabrina two
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girls one ghost we got to go to their show and see their lovely beautiful feces human forms and
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oh we could go for it girl you know and then we got to hang out with Tyler AKA ghost honey and you're jealous and he's
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the best He Is We got to go to his book signing and we got to get brunch with him it was wonderful also um really good
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brunch recommendation Elena's always giving the recommendations so I'm going to give a recommendation go to Source in
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Cambridge oh my my mouth is watering right now just it was so good they have like what did you sule Funfetti
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chocolate pancakes Elena got indeed I don't know the name of what I got but it was a pasta dish it was like a bucatini
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carbonara sounds great pasta with an egg on it it looked delicious and the crispy
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potatoes are really good to share they'll ruin you in like a good way way like they'll ruin you for other potatoes
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yeah I have the and they didn't ruin me if you know what I mean um but yeah so it's been our happy news a cool couple
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weeks the you know Halloweeny things John and I went to murder mystery party the other night yeah I didn't even get
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to tell Mikey about this I got to tell Mikey the whole Shenanigans well he's here right now so go it was a I'm not
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going to go into all the details tell them everything tell them everything but I met some listeners there cool and it
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was a [ __ ] blast I highly recommend anybody go to a murder mystery themed party or dinner it is so much fun
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everything was over the top John got so into it he was literally walking up to people and being like so I heard that uh
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everyone's thinks you're a shady [ __ ] uh what's going on like it was amazing I
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love that so good uh but yeah that was fun got me into the spooky spirit and yeah I hope you guys are are all
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spookified and feeling in the season yeah and I hope you're eating a pumpkin pie oh I
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hope you're not oh I love pumpkin pie I do not like pumpkin pie I'll fight you I'll fight you behind the gym okay
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behind the gym which one which gym the school gy oh gosh all right well what a great segue into
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something that has nothing to do with that hiding behind gyms yeah I don't have any way to correlate that we're not
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good at Segways and you know what that's okay I accept that about myself we never
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have been good at segue so why would I do it now so why would we even start now I'm not changing for anyone I will never
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change no I hope I change a little bit I hope I continuously change forever it's
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called metamorph that's a podcast for another day if the light is on then it isn't off so H
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hu that's that's just what I'm going to say about things when I need to transition like the light isn't on then
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or if the light is on then it isn't off if the light is off then it isn't on yeah yeah oh so I'm going to talk about
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an ays today um an arys murder unfortunately I we are bringing it back to some true crime I know we were doing
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some paranormales for a minute and don't think those are going anywhere baby cuz
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they are here to stay we we'll never get rid of them we'll never get rid of them
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but we leaned in obviously for spooky season but now I bring to you the murder of Elizabeth conden okay okay so
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Elizabeth mannering conden she was born April 22nd 1894 now before you leave pump the brakes because she was born
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then but her whole life goes down so we get to a place of modern there you go which is so different yeah you know but
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she was born April 22nd 1894 I know in duth Minnesota to parents Chester conden and Clara banister Clara and Chester
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Clara and Chester CeCe what a cute little couple yes Chester was a lawya and Clara was a school teacher so they
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had moved to the area a few years earlier and when they did Chester ended up buying uh a stake in this like small
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mining operation in massabi Iron Range I think is how you say it so like Chester
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Chester loves to buy small stakes and things he does and you know what Chester loves to not really think that they're
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he's going to get a big Roi listening to me over here Finance boy he didn't think he was going to get
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much return on that but the operation quickly started pulling huge amounts of iron ore from the earth and that made
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Chester kden a very wealthy man look at him going in there being like it's nothing it's nothing just this little
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thing and then it's like Bo boom that's like the best way to go something like no expectations hope for the best but
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expect the worst he was just like I don't know what's going to happen and then boom he
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was rich it happened so between his reputation as a lawyer and his income from the mining operation Chester became
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a very well-known and even actually more well-respected figure in Minnesota politics first through his philanthropic
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work and then he became a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives wow so he's very well respected he sat on um
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that seat from 19 n he sat on the seat he was he was there yeah every time they came in they were like why are you
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sitting on the seat he was just there on that chair see what I did there so his financial success did allow him to buy
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up large plots of land in and around alth which included a large plot plot surrounded by different from a plot plot
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plot surrounded by Birch and pine trees it was beautiful and Chester named the the land and the house that sat upon it
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or would eventually sat upon it seat on it he named it Glen Sheen Glen Sheen Glen Sheen he named it
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that's pretty after the village in Siri England but his family came from oh I like that Glen Sheen now glennen Mansion
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ended up becoming a massive 39 room mansion that was built from Vermont Granite the best oh the best and they
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decorated it with Furnishings from Italy Ireland Germany the Middle East and by the time it was completed in 1908 it
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cost then about $854,000 to complete so you're like wow a mansion like that's a lot of money but
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like mansions for like 34 room like wild and out Mansion but then are you ready I'm ready today 28.5 million
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wa lot of money baby holy [ __ ] money bags wow but thanks to Chester's foresight Glen Sheen was built with like
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future Technologies and cultural tastes in mind the house was originally lit by gas uh Gaslight but it was built with
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wiring so that everything could be modernized as soon as electric lighting was made available
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that's the foresight that's called planning ahead with chester wow that's a forethought a forethought that's the
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forethought and there was also plenty of space on the 22 acre estate to allow for
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the incorporation of tennis courts and more forms of entertainment as they came along wow they really were on it they
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really were and while Glenn Sheen quickly became a popular Gathering Place for family friends and neighbors
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actually Elizabeth and her siblings found the estate quote stuffy and formal they weren't like big fans of when they
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were younger even without guests the conen girls were expected to wear formal dresses to most meals and the boys were
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to wear tuxedos so I could kind of see why they were like all right this is a lot now when they were away from the
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formality of parties and meals with their parents Elizabeth and her siblings entertained each other on the massive
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estate they would play hide and seek there was like s so many uh hidden passageways and compartments so they
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could easily hide oh that's cool very uh ready or not yes mhm they would go ice skating or play hockey on the creek in
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the winter and sometimes they' just go out and like explore the ground so slowly but surely they started getting
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used to their new space yeah and even though their dad was among du's most prominent citizens both he and Clara
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their mother were strict disciplinarians with very high expectations so the Conan
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children they were all really close with their parents okay according to local historian uh Gail fetcher I believe is
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how you say it yeah Chester and Clara quot tried hard to spend time with each child individually and Chester had a
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special way of getting to know his children better each year Chester took one child on a trip oh Isn't that cool I
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think that's a cool idea it is yeah and just the fact that like I mean back then
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for them to be thinking about like spending time alone with each child yeah and like how important that was cuz you
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can fall into that like routine when you have multiple children of just like they
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all come together yeah to everything like everything's has a family and but it is nice to to have little moments of
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one each one yeah yeah cuz kids need that yeah but still because of the time period neither parent was like overly
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affectionate or super doting yeah and all the kden children were raised to be self-reliant and one of the biggest
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things that was like very important to the family was to give back to the community whenever they could oh that's
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nice yeah it was like a staple it was a particular lesson that Elizabeth would carry with her throughout her entire
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life so like many of the nation's wealthiest families once they were of an appropriate age the conden children were
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sent to some of the country's finest boarding schools Elizabeth and her sister spent their primary school years
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at Dana Hall which is actually in Welsley Massachusetts um and it's very popular
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with American High Society children it sounds it Dana Hall yeah I was going to say you you got to be somebody to go to
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Dana Hall you got to be someone so after graduating from Dana Hall in 1915 Elizabeth enrolled at Vasser College uh
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she followed in the footsteps of her older sister Helen but unfortunately after just one semester at Vasser
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Elizabeth was called Home in the fall of 1916 because Chester actually died unexpectedly from a sudden attack of
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plcy I believe is how you say it oh man it's a condition where the lining of the
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lungs become like very severely inflamed oh that's terrifying so sad and just like very sudden yeah so Chester's
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obituary was published in actually a special edition of The duth Herald and he was celebrated not only for his
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political achievements and supportive social causes but also because he quote was a good man with sound instincts and
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large capacities for services a so like he he gave back to his community like good dude now Chester's death obviously
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hit the family very very hard particularly Elizabeth because she and her dad had been very close oh that's
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sad so instead of going back to vasar I read it phonetically V Vass Elizabeth decided that she was going to stay in
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duth quote feeling like it was her duty to remain at Glenn Sheen and look after her mother a so she kind of like took on
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a a role that was so selfless yeah you know yeah now years earlier Chester had established two trusts one to provide
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for Clara and the children and the other quote to provide and maintain for my wife and children a home so long as any
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of them shall live making it easy for any of my children who so may wish to occupy Glen Sheen a so he made sure that
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no matter what his family would be taking care they want to live there they get to live there MH in simple terms the
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second trust covered all of the operating costs of the massive estate as long as Clara Andor one of the children
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was in the Mansion okay which would be the case until Elizabeth's tragic death oh so the money that was left for
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Elizabeth by her far father would allow her to live a life of luxury and really not have to worry about anything she
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could have spent and spent and spent and never spent at all and never spent at all exactly but her parents had stressed
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the importance of helping others the whole time that she'd been growing up so Elizabeth actually ended up leading a
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life of service much like her parents did oh I love that yeah when she returned to duth she and her mother
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became super close and she was said to be Clara's closest friend and companion until Clara passed away in 1950 at 96
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years old oh so they were just best friends forever oh my God and she lived a long time Clara she did yeah now
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outside of her familial obligations Elizabeth became a dedicated volunteer with multiple organizations in duth she
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offered up her time whenever she could she would donate like very sizable donations to a ton of organizations
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regularly and after her mom passed she filled her calendar with fundraisers ERS and board meetings from for causes from
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the local library and her family's Church to the St Louis County Heritage and art center and she also donated a
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lot to Lighthouse for the Blind which is an advocacy group for the visually impaired wow so she was just doing the
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damn thing doing the damn thing helping anybody whenever she could wow she might
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have been one of duth deth's wealthiest and most respected residents but she actually shunned public attention and
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appreciation for her generosity and she really just preferred to live a modest life that was more you know in
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keeping with her religious upbringing and life of service she didn't want a lot of recognition she just wanted to do
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it and then do it quietly just go back to her life and do it and I love that yeah now when she went on in public she
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dressed very simply and conservatively and on occasions when she did wear jewelry it was always very simple and
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elegant according to one of her close friends Elizabeth liked quote liked to do things for people but she was very
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natural so basically saying like she got satisfaction from giving and not necessarily from being for being
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recognized for the giving exactly which I think like that that whole like idea confuses some people like some people
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cannot understand that yeah and like they and it's like if you're not looking for a big pat on the back about it then
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it it doesn't occur and then people almost like think that you are even if you're not necessarily exactly so it's
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so weird it's still that way but a lot of people get uncomfortable being pre and that was Elizabeth like she she
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didn't want the attention not because not really for any other reason other than just made her uncomfortable yeah
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like some people just want to do the nice thing and then just have it done they're not looking for the pat on the
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back about it they just want it's not about them yeah exactly and she was one of those people but you're right for her
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man yeah she's [ __ ] she's killing it killing it I love Elizabeth but all the time and attention Elizabeth gave to
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others wasn't exactly without its costs it often came at the expense of a romantic life and the thing was it
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wasn't that there weren't you know suitable men interested in her it was more that she felt like her time was
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better spent on other non-romantic Pursuits yeah but there was one man that Elizabeth had maintained a close
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relationship too according to her friends and family this man Fred wolven had become or had been a close friend of
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Elizabeth's for many years and she actually at one point accepted a marriage proposal from him but
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eventually she returned to the ring and told him quote she didn't love him enough to spend the rest of her life
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with him wow now he was obviously heartbroken over the rejection and he never married wow and when he died he
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left all of his money to Elizabeth with instructions for her to buy a ring to commemorate their friendship oh my God
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he just loved her like purely wow that's like the purest love I've ever heard of
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like accepted the fact that she didn't want to be with him still wanted to be her friend and left all his money to her
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wow it was just like by a ring to remember me by that's a man right there now even though she got never or excuse
00:18:06
me even though she never got married remember she she she got never married she got never married and she didn't
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really make much time for a romantic relationship she still loved children and she refused to let her single status
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prevent her from having a family hell yeah which was a really Progressive and defiant position for the era yeah in
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1932 when she was 38 years old she worked with an adop option agency in Greensboro North Carolina to adopt a
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3-month-old baby girl that she ended up naming margerie mannering conden oh she told friends and family I want to help
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her I can give her a good home and schooling and she is precious that little girl I know she was a cute little
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baby so those friends and family members suspected there was more to the adoption
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than Elizabeth newer was letting on her niece Mary van everra said there was a kind of feeling that Marjorie was to be
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the answer to want Elizabeth's loneliness and her feelings of being unfulfilled as a single person but that
00:19:03
also made Marjorie sort of a toy okay I think I think that's just an opinion I mean yeah in my opinion that's simp
00:19:11
opinion op that is an opinion now three years later Elizabeth would adopt another child this time from an
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unmarried couple in Chicago who just didn't have the resources to raise a baby and she named her new daughter
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Jennifer Susan conden Okay and she really hoped that the two girls would get along as you know she and her
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siblings had aten exporing maning hide and goek do all that fun but unfortunately she would
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eventually learn that these two girls had very different personalities and there was little chance of them ever
00:19:41
becoming close oh that's sad yeah the differences between Marjorie and Jennifer became clear just actually a
00:19:47
few years into their adoption Jennifer was really social friendly she liked to be around people she was what people
00:19:54
would refer to as an easy child okay um according to Gail uh fetching her I believe it is Jennifer had an outgoing
00:20:02
bubbly personality that allowed her to make friends easily she liked being around the other members of the family
00:20:08
who would visit Glenn Sheen and generally enjoyed uh spending time with her mother margorie on the other hand
00:20:13
was an introvert was introverted and preferred being alone with a book to being with other people and she referred
00:20:19
to her as a complex child to rise okay which again opinion yeah now at an early age though Marjorie demonstrated a
00:20:28
pretty strong will and she would become pretty difficult or volatile if she didn't get her way she had a lot of
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Tantrums okay Elizabeth's niece Mary recalled that quote Marjorie liked attention and she was bossy as far back
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as Mary could remember margorie had this need to be in charge when she was playing with other children and she
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always wanted to have more toys or games than the other kids like you know yeah when she didn't get her way she would
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have a tantrum she would hit she would kick she would scream and the Tantrums and arguments really didn't happen in
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public but it was clear to everybody that the problem wasn't entirely margerie Mary said of her aunt aunt
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Elizabeth did have a difficult time being a single mother and then elaborated that she also had a hard time
00:21:16
imposing any boundaries or discipline with Marjorie that's tough she was kind of just this wild child that never
00:21:22
really was able to Be Tamed and it doesn't sound like Elizabeth I'm sure she probably wanted to to her
00:21:31
in some way but she she was it was hard exactly yeah it's hard I mean even like because you know kids do respond to
00:21:38
boundaries they do like boundaries abely whether they know it or not consciously
00:21:44
they respond to boundaries and and it helps them to be better and more contained and More in control of their
00:21:51
own emotions and feelings and actions but it's not easy no it's not easy to give like I people some people find it
00:22:00
easy and they find it easy to discipline and to you know put these boundaries out
00:22:04
there yeah it's difficult like my kids are seven and four now and I still find it difficult to throw a boundary line
00:22:11
there when it when you have to be like tough about it you know like and that's in a two parent household ex I was going
00:22:17
to say and I have the backup of John and it's like but it's not easy just cuz all
00:22:22
you want to do is just make your kids Happy And just like you just want to see them happy so when you have to
00:22:28
in you know put in a boundary or put in a big no it's it's not easy well and then you add the fact that marger is an
00:22:36
adopted child and Elizabeth wanted to give her the best life possible she doesn't want to have to discipline her
00:22:42
all the time you know she wants to be like okay it's not easy some people find it easy and I'm sure some people
00:22:48
listening can find it easy and can't understand this side and there's people who don't find it easy and can't
00:22:54
understand the other side so I think it's just one of those things that's like exactly you know she obviously did
00:22:59
not find it easy she didn't and the thing was some certainly not all but some of margery's behavioral problems
00:23:05
did stem from her insecurities about being adopted she complained actually pretty often that her cousin's quote
00:23:11
teased her about being illegitimate oh and when she yeah we don't know if that if that really did happen she that's
00:23:19
just that's something she said happen I up if that was true mhm and when she was
00:23:24
older she would tell people that the rest of the F uh the rest of the conen family never accepted her because she
00:23:29
wasn't related by blood she said I never felt part of the family the animosity goes back to day one which those are her
00:23:36
feelings that's her outlook on it that's her uh and that's the thing that sounds
00:23:41
very sad it does but Marjorie even took things like having to sit at the Kids Table during family events as a slight
00:23:48
directly related to her being adopted it's like no I think it's just cuz you're a kid and it's like no that's
00:23:54
just how it goes I I had to sit at the Kids Table forever and I [ __ ] hated it but wasn't because like my mom was a
00:23:59
single mom was like slighting me for that doesn't make any sense now unlike her own upbringing where we know service
00:24:06
to others was really emphasized Elizabeth actually lavished both of her girls with gifts trips and other
00:24:12
extravagances because remember she adopted these kids she wants to she's I think she's doing more than the average
00:24:18
person necessarily would she's just excited because she's in the position to do so exactly and she wants to and and
00:24:25
again it's very it's hard you want to see that smile on your kids's face I would give my kids the whole damn world
00:24:32
if I could like it's you just want to make them happy well and a lot of people it's a hard balance to hit absolutely
00:24:37
and a lot of people say like I've heard even like you say this and you had a like a great childhood but you always
00:24:42
want to give your kid more than what you had even if you did have a t even if you
00:24:46
had a great childhood which it sounds like Elizabeth did y she wants to not you know ratchet it up a notch do it
00:24:53
even better and I get it so both girls took piano lessons they practiced on the Steinway grand piano at Glen Sheen and
00:25:00
when it came time to shop for new clothes this sounds amazing I want this representatives from the high-end stores
00:25:07
would come out to the mansions with all the latest fashions and like trunks for the girls to try on so not have to go
00:25:14
anywhere oh my God and just to have like the latest and greatest of everything just brought to you and try it on in the
00:25:21
comfort of your own home that would be great and when they went out to friends houses or into town they were always
00:25:27
driven bu a show for so they were living the life they were living large and actually for Jennifer the money and
00:25:34
attention made her uncomfortable and she would kind of go out of her way to avoid
00:25:38
being seen like in the chauffeur or in the latest fashion yeah she felt like it was a little too like ostentatious
00:25:46
beautiful word thank you $1 but margerie embraced the lavish spending and that began a lifelong
00:25:54
struggle with money characterized by over spending and an obsession with her mother's jewelry uh-oh Jennifer said of
00:26:02
her sister she always had a spending problem even when she was little she'd steal money from my mother's purse oh
00:26:08
which like when you're little and showing signs of that that's yeah that's not great not good when she was older
00:26:13
marjerie actually got into the habit of stealing her mother's credit cards and CH uh charging up huge bills at local
00:26:20
stores but Elizabeth always paid those bills without imposing any consequences oh no yeah the older margerie got the
00:26:28
more apparent her behavioral problems became by the time she was enrolled at Dana Hall like her mother had been as a
00:26:34
teenager Elizabeth was regularly receiving calls and letters about marjorie's bad behavior oh she it ranged
00:26:42
from minor rule breaking to Straight Up physical violence oh wow in one instance
00:26:47
when a teacher insisted that which this is an interesting instance you might feel the same as me uh a teacher
00:26:54
insisted that Elizabeth needed help raising the children cuz she was a single parent Marjorie got pissed and
00:27:00
slapped the woman across the face okay here's the thing yeah don't insult my mom violence isn't the answer don't go
00:27:08
around slapping people don't go around hitting people it's never good is never coming from it trust
00:27:14
me there's many people in my life as an adult that I've wanted to whack across the face there's a few that I would love
00:27:20
to right this second yep see but don't do it it doesn't come nothing comes good from it but do I understand the feeling
00:27:27
behind it yeah yeah just don't act on it yeah don't talk don't talk about my mom
00:27:31
don't act like my mom just cuz she's a single mother yeah like no she's got she's an adult she knows what like I
00:27:40
understand why she was pissed absolutely I get it but again don't act go slapping
00:27:44
people no but she told her mother in a letter sent on Valentine's Day in 1949 I had never hated anyone so damn much in
00:27:51
all my life Wow like I mean don't talk disrespectfully to her mom I guess yeah I guess she was riding for her mom for a
00:27:59
minute at that moment at least because I have a feeling this isn't going to turn
00:28:02
out well nope which is really breaking my heart I know because Elizabeth really seems like a a cool chick she is this is
00:28:09
a very very tragic story I mean it's morbid yeah so over time marjorie's Behavior got worse and worse and worse
00:28:16
she was lying compulsively stealing more she was overspending and it was really just all too much for Elizabeth to deal
00:28:23
with and when she did recognize that she was in over her head she took margerie to be evaluated at the uh meninger
00:28:30
Clinic which was a psychiatric Treatment Center in Topeka Kansas it's Topeka right TOA yeah the doctors considered
00:28:37
her behavioral problems and her General disposition to actually be more serious than just teenage problems and they
00:28:44
diagnosed Marjorie as a sociopath a person who ignores social and moral Norms wow write that in there and the
00:28:53
summer between her Junior and Senior year she spent long stretches at the clinic clinic where where she did get
00:28:57
inpatient care and it's cool that I'm glad that Elizabeth like took the right steps took the steps yeah yeah exactly
00:29:05
and that fall uh Marjorie did not return to Dana Hall instead she was sent to a group home in St Louis uh and she
00:29:11
finished out her senior year at a school which they then referred to as a school
00:29:15
for Disturbed children wow so things got real very quickly after graduation she planned marjerie to enroll in courses at
00:29:23
St Louis University but her plans changed suddenly after she met her soon to be husband dick
00:29:29
Leroy now let's talk about Dick Leroy a little bit let's talk about Dick you know when Dick Leroy graduated from the
00:29:36
University of Massachusetts in 1950 he had planned to go on to pursue a law degree are you MK guy you maskhead but
00:29:45
unfortunately he didn't have a ton of money and his lack of funds forced him to change his plans and instead he just
00:29:51
accepted an offer from his brother to come to St Louis St Louis and work with him in the insurance business all right
00:29:58
so he hadn't lived there more than a couple months when he met margorie he had stopped in for dinner at Mom and Pop
00:30:04
lippard's boarding house which is where Marjorie was living at the time W oh okay so they began dating not long after
00:30:11
and they bonded over their shared interests and values dick recalled of their early days she was so exuberant so
00:30:17
full of fun they were both members of the centinary Methodist Church so most of their dating life revolved around the
00:30:25
church and its Associated activity group GRS but interestingly no matter how much
00:30:30
time they spent together it's kind of unclear how much dick really did learn about Marjorie there were definitely
00:30:37
skeletons she was keeping in the closet for lack of a better term she told him that she was from an upper middle class
00:30:42
family which is uh an interesting way to describe that is very interesting um and
00:30:49
had been studying nursing at Washington University when they met and when she had to visit the clinic in early 1951
00:30:57
she explained to dick that she had some trouble in her teens and her overprotective mother had insisted that
00:31:02
she visit the clinic ah so he didn't know anything about her diagnosis yeah which is her personal business to share
00:31:09
with whomever she pleases but it's just a fact that he did not know he did not know exactly and then in the winter of
00:31:15
1951 he and Marjorie became engaged much to Elizabeth's displeasure she was not happy about this and it wasn't that she
00:31:24
disapproved of dick as a person it was just that she was concerned that Marjorie was rushing into marriage she
00:31:30
was like you just met this guy like barely a year ago and I was really hoping that you would focus on your
00:31:36
education instead of just getting married right out of you know classic parent worry yeah absolutely and she was
00:31:42
like right I think she was like right out of high school when this happened so while Elizabeth wasn't thrilled at the
00:31:49
idea of Marjorie getting married so soon she actually couldn't have picked a better man for margerie to marry Dick's
00:31:55
family had been financially well off during during the really early years of his life but A Series of Unfortunate
00:32:00
Events actually led to a loss of their income and so the Leroy family had to get used to used to living without all
00:32:06
the Finer Things and given margery's tendency to overspend and her General irresponsibility with money Elizabeth
00:32:14
was like okay well maybe Dick's thriftiness will help balance out that impulsive part of Marjorie like yeah
00:32:21
this could be good for her like maybe it will be a nice balance right so margerie
00:32:25
and Dick were married on June 30th 1951 in a traditional Methodist ceremony which was actually held in the large
00:32:32
living room at Glenn Sheen and there was an audience of about 150 there okay and
00:32:37
then they went on a two-e honeymoon and returned back to St Louis St Louis and eventually got a small apartment in
00:32:43
brenwood Missouri brenwood excuse me uh at first things between Marjorie and Dick were wonderful they were very much
00:32:51
in the honeymoon state of things all right but it didn't take long for margerie to slip back into her old
00:32:57
habits a few months into the marriage dick was very surprised and confused when he started getting threatening
00:33:03
phone calls from creditors demanding that payments needed to be made for items and services that he didn't
00:33:10
actually even know he had purchased that would be confusing yeah and upsetting yeah in one instance he got a call from
00:33:17
the local grocery store demanding a payment of $400 that Marjorie had recently charged
00:33:23
to their account according to Dick whose monthly salary at the time was $260 oh no quote that $400 was like the
00:33:33
national debt to me yeah because remember this is in the 1950s so I didn't do the conversions but but that's
00:33:40
a it's a lot of money today and it's like his entire paycheck for two full months exactly like like more than even
00:33:47
so a few months later while Elizabeth was visiting from Minnesota Marjorie charged several thousand dollar to dicks
00:33:54
Accounts at department stores around town and when Dick confronted Marjorie about it she blamed the charges on
00:34:01
Elizabeth saying that Elizabeth thought it would be easier to charge the things to Dick's credit cards than her own
00:34:08
since she wasn't from there which is was not true like Elizabeth would not have done that and when they're going for
00:34:13
that kind of very detailed and ridiculous lie it's like oh no it's gotten real bad yeah you're grasping for
00:34:19
straws and the the explanation was obviously a lie meant to avoid consequences but Elizabeth did end up
00:34:27
sending the money to cover the charges anyway cuz she just didn't want margorie to be in trouble you know yeah I think
00:34:32
she's just trying to put Band-Aids as everywhere she can exactly and you get it I mean she's a mom yeah she's just
00:34:39
and she's she's probably just trying to make it all go away just like our lives stressing her out and it's something
00:34:44
that she wasn't necessarily expecting or used to yeah which it's like it's is it
00:34:49
the right choice no but like not in our opinion but you know but that's my opinion that's my opinion from
00:34:55
Housewives so Mar the thing was marjorie's spending wasn't always on minor things like clothes or jewelry in
00:35:02
the fall of 1951 she started visiting a local stable to see a horse that she'd been riding and she told dick that she
00:35:09
had been renting on like renting the horse for her session but in truth she had actually purchased this entire
00:35:16
[ __ ] horse from a breeder in Illinois and had been putting off payments by telling the breeder that she lost his
00:35:23
address and thus didn't know where to send them w so she bought a whole ass horse without buying a whole ass horse
00:35:30
and then lied to her husband and the breeder about paying for it or buying it in the first place damn girl
00:35:38
damn that's a lot it's getting wiy how are you going to explain a whole ass horse I have no idea I myself have never
00:35:44
bought a whole ass horse so either I wouldn't know the first thing about explaining that me either But as time
00:35:50
went by it was becoming clearer and clearer to dick that his wife hadn't exactly been honest with him about her
00:35:56
life before they married in addition to the Reckless spending he had never once seen her leave for any classes or study
00:36:03
for nursing courses that she said she'd been taking when they met confusing like
00:36:08
that wasn't a thing yeah and then there was the matter of her trips to the men menager Clinic Marjorie had told dick
00:36:15
that she'd only received treatment at the clinic to appease her overprotective mother but after talking about it with
00:36:21
Elizabeth dick began to understand the full extent of marjorie's mental illness and how it had manifested throughout her
00:36:28
teen years yeah so unfortunately the picture of his wife that was emerging and the months and years after their
00:36:34
marriage only got Bleaker and more challenging as time went on because really she had started this with
00:36:40
multiple lies yeah she said I come from a upper middle class family that's not true NOP she lied about her why she had
00:36:48
been to this Clinic which I can understand in the beginning of meeting someone you don't want them to have like
00:36:53
preconceived notions about who you are but before you marry someone some one they need to know yeah about your health
00:36:59
yeah you should at least let them in on some things here you know yeah and she was like I'm a nurse or like I'm taking
00:37:05
nursing courses Li that was not true at all so in May of 1952 Marjorie gave birth to the first of what would be the
00:37:12
couples seven children whoa they had seven bibis and the first was a boy that they named Peter Peter Peter Peter's
00:37:20
birth was quickly followed by another baby next year and yet another the year after that and so on and so forth
00:37:26
unfortunately the addition of the children to the Le the Leroy family did nothing to curb margery's compulsive
00:37:33
behaviors but it did give her seven new ways to manipulate Elizabeth into sending money and spending on her
00:37:40
grandkids Jennifer said of her sister margorie had no conception of money whatsoever she always had to have the
00:37:46
best and most expensive of everything mother would talk about Marge and the spending and she really didn't know how
00:37:51
to stop it oh so it was just getting out of control it seems like just over everyone's head big time it turned out
00:37:59
Elizabeth wasn't the only one who didn't know what to do about marjorie's spending and compulsive lying in no time
00:38:06
at all dick was falling into the role of the buffer between margorie and all these creditors but when he insisted
00:38:12
that he take charge of the finances margorie would become abusive or manipulative so he would eventually just
00:38:17
back down because he's like please like you're spending money that we don't have
00:38:24
like let me we're in massive amounts of debt like can I just have a go just let me give a shot like you're you tried it
00:38:31
didn't work out let me try it that's it like I'll consult you I gu it makes you feel better but clearly you can't manage
00:38:37
this on your own so we're a union but she she would not allow that to happen now despite their best efforts and
00:38:43
intentions when it came to marjerie in reality neither dick nor Elizabeth would ever be able to manage her behavior and
00:38:50
that became apparent in the late 1950s when margorie bought a $32,000 home near Lake Harriet in
00:38:59
Minneapolis without ever Consulting her husband oh that's not good she bought a $32,000 home then which would be like
00:39:08
spending $350,000 today and not Consulting your partner wow if I spent $350,000 without talking to Drew I don't
00:39:23
even know like I can't even fathom that then that's not even a purchased a whole
00:39:28
ass property bought a whole ass home like what oops what and when she produced the contract for his signature
00:39:38
dick was like I'm not signing that like no [ __ ] way so she scratched his name off the contract and bribed the realtor
00:39:46
with $1,000 from an account that didn't exist wow like she was honestly she was like a con artist as well yeah it sounds
00:39:54
like it and by the time anyone had realized what happened uh or that margorie had committed multiple acts of
00:39:59
fraud it was too late the home sale had gone through without and or the home sale had gone through and getting out of
00:40:07
the contract at that point would have cost more than the house itself wow so she manipulated every everyone at every
00:40:17
step of the way and just like she had done so many times before Elizabeth came to the rescue and sent enough money to
00:40:23
cover the costs to avoid any upset oh my God God wild we got to stop this lady I know
00:40:31
I know so just a few weeks and cuz nobody was stopping her just a few weeks after purchasing the house Marjorie
00:40:38
insisted to dick that they needed to redecorate the entire place oh okay so Not only was she going to buy a
00:40:44
$350,000 property now uh and you know without consulting him at all but then she was like we also need a ton of money
00:40:52
to redecorate the entire thing and it's like r rations are expensive oh my God anytime you're
00:40:59
decorating any room in your house it's like oh my God like the wow wow yep wow so as he had done before Dick refused to
00:41:09
spend the money on the interior Decor uh and reminded his wife how much they already owed her mother simply for
00:41:15
buying this [ __ ] house yeah and a few weeks later the family returned home from church to find their dog and the
00:41:22
neighbor dog running loose uh throughout the house and all the living room furniture had been torn to shreds which
00:41:29
of course required them to redecorate wow now margorie insisted it was the dog the dogs who had destroyed
00:41:36
the house but dick didn't have any proof but always suspected it was margorie who
00:41:40
had destroyed the furniture with a knife and blamed it on the dogs really yep he
00:41:45
fig he thought that somehow she went in there and tore everything open because the dogs are just like running through
00:41:50
the house like crazy yeah probably making a mess how did they like slit open multiple sofas and chairs ha s and
00:41:56
this that and the other thing like dogs are wiy but they're not I mean not that I've seen that they're that wiy they
00:42:03
probably could but I think he also knew that she wanted to redecorate the house and was going to do whatever she could
00:42:08
to make it happen damn years later he said Marjorie was the last one out of the house I confronted her I knew she'd
00:42:14
done it but she swore up and down that she didn't do it oh man yeah imagine if she didn't and it's just like the dogs
00:42:21
just ripped open everything I know like obviously there's no way of proving it but yeah damn I would put my money on
00:42:27
March I would also put my money on March here but throughout the 1960s margorie and Dick's marriage just continued and
00:42:33
continue to deteriorate no matter how much money was coming in from Dick's salary and eventually from a trust that
00:42:40
Elizabeth set up Marjorie seemed to always find ways to spend far more than they actually had D So eventually they
00:42:47
did decide to go to couples counseling which was kind of a last ditch effort to save the marriage and it was during this
00:42:53
period that a psychiatrist elaborated on margery's earlier diagnosis saying that
00:42:59
her biggest problem was promiscuity with money caused by a personality defect ah
00:43:04
and then another Psy psychiatrist diagnosed her as borderline manic depressive oh which now is known today
00:43:11
as borderline personality disorder ah okay so unfortunately it doesn't seem like she was willing to accept any kind
00:43:18
of help for the mental illness that she was experiencing so it only got worse yeah and actually once after they
00:43:26
finished a couple's therapy session the therapist pulled dick aside and told him
00:43:30
protect yourself make sure you have a special fund Marjorie could wipe you out wow just because there was she had no
00:43:37
intention to ever stop spending this money like she wasn't going to therapy and saying like this is what I'm doing
00:43:44
and I need help stopping it like I want to it was this is what I'm doing and this is what I want to do deal with it
00:43:49
deal exactly deal with it so by 1970 the EXP the excessive spending on lavish antiques horses properties and other
00:43:57
unnecessary expenses had all become way too much for dick the last straw came in
00:44:03
the fall of 1970 when margorie took out a $20,000 loan to start a horse breeding
00:44:09
program which she was unable to get by telling the loan officer that she would put up funds from her trust as
00:44:16
collateral jez excuse me I meant to say she was able to get by uh saying that she would put these funds up as
00:44:22
collateral but unbeknownst to the bank those funds would not become available for several more years my God so she was
00:44:30
not going to be able to put them up as collateral now on October 31st 1970 Halloween Halloween Marjorie came home
00:44:40
and found dick waiting on the front steps with a bag packed for himself oh wow he was done she begged him not to
00:44:46
leave she promised that she'd be better about spending but dick was like listen we've done this before we've had this
00:44:51
conversation a myriad of times I can't do this anymore yeah and that night he moved into a motel until he was uh able
00:44:59
to find permanent accommodations for himself and it probably took a while because she had [ __ ] up his credit in
00:45:06
a way beyond measure exactly so in the weeks and months that followed margery's attitude turned from regretful to
00:45:13
confrontational and then eventually just completely vindictive when it became clear that dick was not going to come
00:45:19
back to her she just started badmouthing him around town in front of the children
00:45:24
trying to win their leite and turn them against their dad and as the divorce proceedings unfolded she did everything
00:45:31
she could to keep the kids from dick she wouldn't allow him in the house she would pretend that she forgot about
00:45:37
scheduled visits she would say that he had been out uh physically abusive to the point that she sought a restraining
00:45:43
order but no such restraining order existed oh wow like it was bad oh man it it became a very nasty divorce and in
00:45:51
the Years immediately following the divorce dick actually ended up seeing very little of his kids because of all
00:45:58
the nastiness and all the while margorie was continuing to excessively spend she was
00:46:04
charging countless items to service and services still to Dick's accounts around
00:46:09
town without ever saying anything to him about it wow so the divorce was finalized in
00:46:15
1971 but that was hardly the end of Dick's relationship with Marjorie because for years afterwards she spent a
00:46:22
lot of time spreading rumors and lies about him to anyone who would listen and she would constantly use the custody of
00:46:29
the children to as like a weapon she would weaponize terrible and then there were other events like the Vandal
00:46:35
vandalization of his car in 1973 that unfortunately he couldn't prove but he was very convinced that Margery was
00:46:42
responsible quite simply marjorie's position was if dick didn't want to be with her she would do everything in her
00:46:49
power to make his life miserable damn that's scary it is it's very scary and the years after her divorce from dick
00:46:57
her her behavior continued to just spiral out of control she was getting Wilder and just more predictable with
00:47:03
every outrageous act in May of 1974 she actually was able to coers Elizabeth into co-signing a loan for
00:47:13
$345,000 back then today that would be like co-signing a loan for 2.1 million wow $2.1 million listen I don't
00:47:25
think I love anybody that much to cosign a loan for that holy [ __ ] she said that
00:47:30
the money was for renovations for her property and at the time Elizabeth was 80 years old and in declining Health
00:47:38
which Marjorie was using to her advantage and Margery eventually defaulted on the payments so the bank
00:47:45
sued Elizabeth which forced a civil suit where margorie quote admitted to obtaining her mother's signature by
00:47:52
duress and under false pretenses oh damn this is so messy mhm she said she asked
00:47:58
for her mother's signature in a moment where she was not of entirely sound mind and Jennifer said of the situation
00:48:04
Jennifer's the sister yeah she said with Mom when it came to Mar marjerie I don't
00:48:08
think she could say no she was vulnerable and Marjorie was a con artist damn now later that same year Elizabeth
00:48:15
became quote unquote mysteriously ill after a visit where Marjorie had been seen feeding her some homemade marmalade
00:48:23
what the [ __ ] tests later showed that her system had an elevated level of meprobamate which is a tranquilizer
00:48:30
known for its high toxicity this is terrifying so basically people suspected that Marjorie had
00:48:39
something to do with this poisoning because she was trying to get more money out of her mother like she wanted her
00:48:45
inheritance wow but they chose not to investigate the case I think because they they would probably have a hard
00:48:52
time proving it yeah and it would just be really messy in Elizabeth's final years of life oh but from that point on
00:48:59
nurses and domestic staff were instructed to pay very close attention to marjorie's interaction with Elizabeth
00:49:06
when she visited now things only got worse the following year in May of 1975 Marjorie
00:49:13
was suspected of arson when her home on the Minnesota Wisconsin border caught fire and
00:49:20
literally burned to the ground what the [ __ ] a few months later she got angry with Tom Welch the bank officer who
00:49:27
managed her trust and several people overheard her saying she was quote going to take care of that bastard what the f
00:49:33
like chill out that's it I'm like take a breather eat a Moonie Moon spand people's money drink a seven up
00:49:43
stop like you got to calm down like reel it in Sister jeez and she also allegedly
00:49:49
made several calls to contacts in in Chicago to arrange for a hit on Welch her lone officer what the [ __ ] who
00:49:56
managed her trust yep now later that summer she ended up moving to Colorado and was arrested not long after that on
00:50:03
charges that she stole two cars from a Minnesota dealership after purchasing the cars with bad
00:50:10
checks she's she's so much she's wilding out I also don't understand how people maintain anger for that long I don't
00:50:20
know like getting so angry at someone to like take a hit out on them is like Wild
00:50:25
on every level but it's also good that you don't understand how that feels but maintaining that level of Rage for that
00:50:32
long to go through so many steps of a process is always very fascinating to me because I just don't have time for it no
00:50:41
I'm here for a good time I have time for that kind of Rage like I get mad yeah but it goes away pretty quick like I'm
00:50:47
it has to I don't it just I can't maintain it it's like how some people are really good at Building A Fire and
00:50:54
maintaining it into like a bond fire I'm not good at that I'm not either my fire
00:50:58
dies out immediately me too I can barely start one yeah so but yeah I think she was just a very very mentally ill woman
00:51:06
who never sounds like Because treatment was very much available to her like people tried to make it available to her
00:51:12
but it doesn't look like she was she wasn't accepted she didn't want to so in the early months of 1976 moving uh
00:51:18
shortly after moving to Colorado Marjorie ended up meeting another man named uh Roger Caldwell at a Parents
00:51:24
Without Partners meeting which that's like the saddest thing ever parents without partn the name of that
00:51:29
just broke my heart like I'm like I love all of you now where Margery was described as Brash and assertive Roger
00:51:36
was described by those who knew him as a softspoken friendly and easy to approach
00:51:40
kind of guy by some others described him as a passive dreamer with delusions of grandeur okay so those are two two mixed
00:51:50
reviews two different things yeah he got he definitely has mixed reviews yeah three out of five recommend so he was a
00:51:56
man who wanted or maybe even believed that he deserved everything he wanted but was never really willing to put hard
00:52:03
work in to get whatever that was had that in common yeah yeah we know those people following his marriage in
00:52:10
1954 Roger had en enrolled in a Lutheran college with plans of becoming a minister but just one year later he
00:52:18
abandoned his studies and started working a series of menial jobs he jumped from one job to the other and
00:52:24
just dve his wife along from one location to the next it was but his original plan was to become a minister
00:52:30
and yeah and then he just kind of like walked away from that yeah so in the years that followed he and his wife
00:52:35
would end up having three children but even that didn't cause Roger to get himself together or settle on a career
00:52:41
and to add to the dysfunction since he got married he had developed a drinking problem which of course exacerbated the
00:52:48
tensions and arguments with his wife Roger would promise to quit drinking and he would even actually go to some AA
00:52:54
meetings but inevitably he'd start drinking again a few weeks later and the cycle would continue over and over So
00:53:00
eventually his wife Martha got tired of the financial insecurity and Roger's alcoholism and you know the things that
00:53:07
came from that like his temper and in July of 1974 they ended up divorcing so to Marjorie Roger's difficult marriage
00:53:15
and personal problems made him seem like a kindred spirit of course said I've gone through all of that of course so
00:53:21
rather than see his failures as the result of his own actions or in actions Marjorie considered them just to both be
00:53:28
Black Sheep the black sheeps of their families it was them against the world and that made him so much more
00:53:34
attractive oh man that literally never turns out well when people are like I'm just the black sheep and it's me against
00:53:41
the world and it's this and like when it's you against the world it's like that's not a great feeling no so after
00:53:48
just two months of dating the two became engaged on St Patty's Day 1976 and they
00:53:53
got married at a small ceremony um at a hotel in Denver and none of margery's family were in attendance they
00:54:00
were not invited it didn't take long for Roger to notice certain undesirable qualities in his new life she seemed to
00:54:07
uh spend far more money than she had wait what this is new crazy I know and she was always at odds with the bank and
00:54:14
the manager of her trust you know the one that she had tried to call a hit out on and before at odds with someone I
00:54:20
would say that is the definition of at odds but before long he started noticing other little things like his credit
00:54:27
cards going missing ah but whenever he would uh confront Marjorie about the issue she would become aggressive or
00:54:33
combative in one instance she did threaten to end her life over it wow that's not cool never having been very
00:54:40
assertive Roger would just back down to margorie who was more than comfortable dominating her husband so her control
00:54:47
over Roger became apparent or more apparent as their relationship progressed eventually things got to the
00:54:52
point where she literally chose his clothing for him whoo yeah she decided what they did where they went and she
00:55:00
manipulated him in other more consequent consequential ways for example she knew
00:55:06
that he was struggling to stay sober and at a party in the summer of 1976 she repeated repeatedly excuse me
00:55:13
offered him a drink because she told friends I want to test his willpower oh I don't like that was ominous like
00:55:21
that's the most you know that your husband is sober and you're trying to get him to drink because you're testing
00:55:27
him that's very very nefarious that is mean yeah that's very cruel evil that is dark sided that is dark sided can you
00:55:37
like not can you imagine but like what the [ __ ] no like could never do that to
00:55:42
somebody that's literally cruel that's what that is that's that's on another level yeah that particular part of this
00:55:50
story like really Disturbed me and there are others that are coming up that also
00:55:54
particular Disturbed me but while the man may have been different marjorie's marriage to Roger unfolded almost
00:56:01
exactly like her marriage had with dick Leroy almost from the start they were behind on all their bills their home
00:56:07
mortgage their car payments the horse breeding fee boarding fees and other expenses but that never stopped Marjorie
00:56:14
from spending money on clothing jewelry anything else that she wanted to have of
00:56:19
course and Roger meanwhile was continuing to struggle with his alcoholism and he was becoming
00:56:24
increasingly aggressive when he drank now by the end of 1976 they were actually both under investigation by the
00:56:33
Colorado FBI for multiple instances of fraud related to bad checks that they were writing and the Stables where they
00:56:40
barded their horses was threatening to sell those horses in order to recoup what they owed in months and months of
00:56:47
unpaid fees casual so the FBI was after them and the stable was like we're getting rid of your horses so your
00:56:55
horses are going bye-bye like holy [ __ ] like where is the it's these kind of people that you're like where is it
00:57:02
where's the point that you say I got to fix some things like I got to I got to get this together what is the moment
00:57:09
yeah and at the same time their payment on their newly purchased home their brand new home yeah was almost due and
00:57:18
neither of them had the money to cover the amount so foreclosure was a near certainty oh man like it was bad so
00:57:25
despite their obvious financial and increasingly legal problems Marjorie and Roger just kept on spending kept on
00:57:32
dreaming they that seems like it'll help yeah they talked about buying a new bigger house and starting a horse
00:57:38
breeding and training program you know absolutely with the horses that they no longer had yeah what would stop them you
00:57:44
know you know just the fact that besides everything yeah just the world yeah and
00:57:49
the problem one of them was that while she was still receiving money from her trust most of the funds were going to
00:57:55
marjorie's creditors because she owed so much money which left them almost nothing to spend freely but still
00:58:03
Marjorie insisted they could make their dream of a horse farm come true if only she could access the money that she was
00:58:10
due to inherit upon her mother's death oh no yep so Roger Caldwell finally met his mother-in-law in late May of 1977
00:58:19
when he flew to duth to meet the managers of marjorie's Trust on her behalf oh okay hey I have a meeting with
00:58:26
the people who are in charge of the money that you're giving your daughter nice to meet you that I've never met you
00:58:31
wow wonderful now Roger had gone to the trustees with the request of an advance of
00:58:40
$750,000 come on my friends so that he and Marjorie could build their horse rench in Colorado according to a letter
00:58:46
he presented to the board which was supposedly written by marjorie's son's doctor at the national Asthma Center
00:58:53
Rick Leroy her son had quote severe asthma and cystic fibrosis and his condition required him to live in a
00:58:59
ranch type environment with lots of open space and clean air okay now in truth Rick did not have cystic fibrosis wow
00:59:07
and the board would later learn that the letter was written by Marjorie and was a
00:59:11
fraud that's so [ __ ] up yeah like you lie that's so [ __ ] up a lot of this is
00:59:17
[ __ ] up but that's really [ __ ] up number one you're pretending to be a doctor which that alone is like ma'am
00:59:23
what secondly you're making up that your child has a horrible thing that they don't have wow like are you you kind of
00:59:31
manifest that that happens that's the thing like don't put that [ __ ] into the universe so you can get your [ __ ]
00:59:35
horse farm yeah that you can't pay for damn but whether they suspected at the time or not that that letter was a fraud
00:59:43
they still refused the request and later it was confirmed that that was not real
00:59:47
and just a few weeks later things got even worse for margorie and Roger the bank repossessed their cars their
00:59:55
checking accounts both had zero doar in them because they had spent everything and this is with Elizabeth along the way
01:00:04
like patching up her at every step every step of the way like that's wild yeah it
01:00:09
was getting to the point where like her trust wasn't going to be a lot of money that's why the people were like the
01:00:14
managers were like you can't continue to take all of this because it's running low you're going to lose it all and
01:00:21
creditors were all but beating down their door looking for payments that they weren't going to be able to make
01:00:26
but Marjorie just kept writing bad checks W spending nearly $100,000 between the middle of May and
01:00:35
the middle of June holy [ __ ] spent $100,000 in one month that's impressive on everything from gas and food to
01:00:46
jewelry and guess what's the other thing she bought jewelry let's see jewelry food gas she
01:00:54
loves loves oh um nay I was just going to say horses she bought a new horse nay nay I was like come on I almost I was
01:01:04
like clothing then I was like no she loves horses you're right yep well clothing I'm sure was in there too but
01:01:09
also bought a new horse Nay with a bad check nay yeah So eventually things were just like they they couldn't do anything
01:01:18
anymore their checking accounts were in zero that like this this is a bad situation so they decided
01:01:25
why don't we make our way back to duth and figure things out oh so by the time margerie and Roger arrived in duth
01:01:31
Elizabeth's Health remember she's in her 80s at this point had declined considerably she had suffered a stroke a
01:01:38
few years earlier so she had become partially paralyzed and was mostly confined to her bed and she was also uh
01:01:44
having difficulty speaking so as a result she required Round the Clock medical care which was provided by an
01:01:50
inhome nurse okay a team of them who would you know switch off off shifts and everything yeah now on the evening of
01:01:56
June 26th 1977 Mildred garu I believe is how you say it was thinking about the night that
01:02:04
she had ahead of her and she regretted her choice to work a double shift at Glenn Sheen it was just going to be a
01:02:09
long just a long time like all the nurses she loved mild loved Elizabeth and could have used the additional money
01:02:16
but working overnight and then straight through the next afternoon was a that's a really tiring shift so and then to
01:02:23
make matters worse Elizabeth was expecting a visit from Marjorie that evening which all the
01:02:29
nurses knew always made for a very tense or unpleasant experience so Mildred called her cooworker
01:02:36
66-year-old Velma p pettila and asked if she would be willing to cover her overnight shift like she was like will
01:02:43
you just do my overnight and then I'll relieve you in the afternoon yeah now as one of the older nurses with the agency
01:02:49
velma's husband really didn't like the idea of her working overnight alone in the a huge mansion yeah cuz it's huge oh
01:02:56
my God it's massive you Google this thing man it's wow it's beautiful it's like some Bridgerton [ __ ] literally it's
01:03:04
like bigger than some brigon [ __ ] but so he was like you know I really don't want
01:03:08
you spending the night there like that's just a lot and you know he probably knew
01:03:12
marjerie was coming and he knew that was never good she a fool yeah so he's like
01:03:16
I really don't want you to but despite his objections Velma did agree to cover Mildred shift now the next morning June
01:03:24
7th Mildred arrived at uh at Glen Sheen for her shift around 7: a.m. so she was relieving Velma in the morning yeah and
01:03:32
Mildred who had had her shift covered that morning she ran into the cook Prudence who had also recently arrived
01:03:39
and was getting ready to get breakfast together now Mildred had expected to be met by Velma and she was surprised when
01:03:45
Pruden said that she hadn't seen Velma or Elizabeth yet oh no she was like oh you haven't seen them yet like that's
01:03:51
weird so she started climbing the stairs that led to Elizabeth's room and Mildred
01:03:56
was stopped abruptly on the stairs when she saw what appeared to be a pair of legs laying motionless on the landing
01:04:02
between the first and second floor so she approached slowly and ended up discovering Velma petla sitting half on
01:04:10
the window seat before the picture window she' been like propped up on the window seat at first Mildred was like
01:04:18
did she stop to rest or did she fall like I she couldn't tell she later told reporters I thought to myself velma's
01:04:25
resting but then I realized that was strange not on the stairway and Velma isn't the resting kind now as she got
01:04:32
closer the way in which velma's body was twisted suggested that something was wrong oh no and then Mildred noticed a
01:04:39
large pool of blood that had crusted onto the carpet in front of Velma oh so her eyes darted from the floor back to
01:04:47
her coworker and that was when she finally realized that velma's face was quote a rust colored mask of dry blood
01:04:55
oh my God and it was that blood was appearing to come from a large gash in velma's head and she was not supposed to
01:05:03
work and she was the oldest nurse the oldest nurse and her husband didn't want her to go mhm oh like tragic tragic
01:05:10
anyways and then you add all of that onto it it just adds layers now on the floor in front of elma's body was a
01:05:17
bloody brass Candlestick at that moment presumably the weapon used to end velma's life and
01:05:23
would be confirmed holy [ __ ] she was beaten with a brass Candlestick my God so now fully panicked now she's only
01:05:33
gotten halfway up the stairs there's still a second flight before she finds Elizabeth know she's sitting there going
01:05:38
what the hell is going on oh yeah so she's fully panicked runs up the second flight of stairs and bursts into
01:05:44
Elizabeth's room obviously hoping to find the woman unharmed inside the room was in shambles dresser drawers had been
01:05:51
pulled out and upended jewelry box boxes had been emptied and thrown to the floor
01:05:56
and Elizabeth was lying face up on her bed with the sheets pulled back and two satin pillows were covering her face
01:06:03
she'd been smothered oh my god there was a large bruise on her left arm like somebody had grabbed her tightly and
01:06:10
Mildred noticed that a gold watch and a diamond and sapphire ring that Elizabeth
01:06:15
wore every day were missing oh that's awful yeah so she raced down the stairs and shouted for Prudence The Cook to
01:06:23
call the police who ended up arriving a short time later now based on the way that the scene was
01:06:28
discovered duth police detective Ernest Grahams theorized that there was some kind of robbery and the murders had
01:06:35
occurred sometime he believed at that point between 11:00 p.m. the previous night and 7:00 a.m. that morning when
01:06:42
Mildred arrived for her shift okay now Graham suspected that the burglar had gotten into the house through a broken
01:06:48
window that investigators discovered in the basement and then they figured that whoever it was made their way up the
01:06:54
stairs where they encountered and ultimately killed Velma by bludgeoning her with a Candlestick that is brutal so
01:07:02
brutal grams told reporters she fell about seven steps to a landing crawled or was placed at top a window seat and
01:07:08
died there oh and then they said or they theorized from there the killer made their way to Elizabeth's room where they
01:07:14
easily killed the 83-year-old 83 years old she lived to 83 just giving giving giving giving and this is how she went
01:07:22
was smothered in her bed and had her rings taken off her like and her bedroom was looted and once this culprit had
01:07:30
taken whatever jewelry was to be found in the bedroom they said the killer stole velma's twoo 1976 Ford Granada and
01:07:37
fled the scene that is [ __ ] up so they stole a car too now Dr vulker vulker goldshmid the St Louis uh Louis Louis
01:07:48
County Medical Examiner he arrived a few hours later and started his preliminary
01:07:53
uh examination of the bodies now he immediately noticed unusual elements of the scene as soon as he knelt beside
01:08:00
velma's body first there was a nylon stocking wrapped so tightly around her left wrist that it had to be cut off
01:08:08
what mhm there were also quote tattoo like puncture wounds on her face forearm and finger but why they were there and
01:08:17
what had caused them were a mystery at that point and this is Velma this is Velma wow in her uh bedroom Dr gold
01:08:24
Schmidt discovered the nurse's log where almost all significant activity was routinely recorded and the log indicated
01:08:30
that Velma had started her shift around 11:00 p.m. just like expected and noted several times that she'd moved Elizabeth
01:08:37
in the hours that followed the final note was entered around 2:30 a.m. Oh So based on the log Dr gold Schmidt
01:08:43
narrowed the time of death somewhere between 2:30 uh a.m. and 7:00 a.m. that's good to have that yeah great so
01:08:50
that sounded sarcastic but it wasn't yeah great I know I don't know why sounded like that we [ __ ] evidence
01:08:57
that's really nice hell yeah really great for you I don't know where that came from I
01:09:04
really meant yeah yeah I really meant yeah I really meant great later that afternoon excuse me
01:09:11
when the bodies were transferred to St Luke's Hospital Dr gold Schmid was able to conduct the autopsies at that point
01:09:17
and that confirmed what everybody already assumed velma's autopsy was conducted by assistant medical exam Dr
01:09:24
Stanley Irving and he concluded that her cause of death was blunt force injury to
01:09:28
the head and could have been the result of any of the 23 wounds caused by blows from the Candlestick
01:09:36
23 mhm she had been hit so many times that her skull had fractured quote into four quadrants and broke her jaw on both
01:09:45
sides oh my God yep now in addition to that I mentioned small tattoo like puncture wounds that she had those were
01:09:54
determined to have come from exposed Nails on the bottom of one of her shoes what the [ __ ] meaning somebody had
01:10:02
used her own shoe to beat her what mhm now that was it was never really discovered like what the nails in the
01:10:11
bottom of her shoe were about and oh my God that's really the only info that we could find on that but years later while
01:10:17
preparing for the trial this is interesting someone in the district attorney's office noted that the photos
01:10:23
taken at the scene and those taken during the autopsy showed that velma's watch stopped at 2:50 a.m. oo so they
01:10:31
were able to realize that later that never actually happens like that's wild it did I I don't know why it maybe like
01:10:37
in the fight yeah in the freight but however that wasn't noted in 1977 so the time of death at the time remained
01:10:45
somewhat between the hours of 2:30 and 7:00 a.m. huh but once they got ready for the trial they were able to narrow
01:10:51
it so Dr gold Schmid conducted Elizabeth autopsy uh and he was accompanied by duth crime scene photographer Waller
01:10:58
Danto uh among the first things he noticed were the number of bruises on Elizabeth's body despite having been
01:11:05
partially Paralyzed by her stroke Dr goldmit concluded that El Elizabeth had very much attempted to fight off her
01:11:12
killer oh that's awful the best she could and there were peal hemorrhaging or hemorrhages in her eyes and that and
01:11:20
the coloring her uh coloring of her head neck and upper torso indicated that obviously the cause of death was
01:11:27
Suffocation yeah there were also contri constriction marks on her finger and left wrist which indicated that the
01:11:34
jewelry had been removed from her body after she had died which is just to think that somebody smothered her and
01:11:41
then took her jewelry off of her dead body oh is just beyond but what the but they're obviously like they're obviously
01:11:50
piece of [ __ ] cowards to begin with but they kept the pillows over face yeah isn't that interesting cuz you know that
01:11:56
it's you should be [ __ ] ashamed of yourself like you can't even bear to woman isn't it's also just so so [ __ ]
01:12:03
up yeah it adds a layer of just so back at glennen a large number of officers obviously had been assigned
01:12:11
to guard the crime scene while technicians were making their way through the massive estate I can't
01:12:16
imagine having that be your job and obviously you want to find out who murdered these two women and this is H
01:12:25
job so the obvious assumption was that both women had been killed during the commission of a robbery and actually it
01:12:31
wouldn't be the first time that a home like Glenn Sheen was robbed in the area uh seven years earlier Elizabeth's
01:12:37
sister-in-law actually Dorothy had shot and killed a 17-year-old Intruder who had tried to break into her home not far
01:12:44
from Glenn Sheen oh damn grars told the Press of the current situation an empty jewelry box was on the floor and the
01:12:51
room was ransacked so he was indicating that that investigator strongly suspected a robbery gone wrong but
01:12:57
unfortunately aside from the missing jewelry and broken basement window the crime scene wasn't giving any further
01:13:02
Clues damn now during a canvas of nearby houses multiple local children told police that they had seen a man they
01:13:10
described as white thin with long hair and wearing a blue jean jacket huh in the area hours before the murder so they
01:13:17
had all seen him and later that afternoon police were able to locate that man after briefly detaining
01:13:23
questioning him though it was determined that he had a valid reason for being on
01:13:27
the property and it was unrelated a now velma's stolen car which investigators hoped would lead them to the killer also
01:13:35
turned to be out uh also turned out to be of little use later that afternoon airport police found the keys to the
01:13:42
Ford Granada in one of the airport trash bins what isn't that crazy the [ __ ] and
01:13:49
the car itself was later discovered in one of the airport parking lots free of evidence or leads aside from one single
01:13:56
fingerprint discovered on the driver's window that's it holy [ __ ] and in the days that followed duth uh duth police
01:14:03
received calls from citizens reporting sightings of the stolen car quote between 1: and 3:00 a.m. on the morning
01:14:09
of the murder but unfortunately the callers quote weren't exactly sure where they remembered spotting the car oh so
01:14:16
it was just like super helpful isn't it wild that even back then but especially now you always get caught oh yeah like
01:14:25
no matter what like you think like in this on this giant you know in this whole country mhm you could hide a car
01:14:33
or hide something and how would anyone ever find it it's like you're going to get caught you always get caught they
01:14:39
found the keys in an airport trash bin you know how many [ __ ] trash bins they probably had to look through wild
01:14:44
it's just always mindboggling to me and especially back then what they were able
01:14:48
to do like we're talking in the 70s so yeah now as detectives on the case got more and more frustrated about the
01:14:54
limited amount of forensic evidence at the scene and the lack of any suspect who would want to kill these two women
01:15:00
yeah an interesting picture of Elizabeth's daughter Marjorie was beginning to emerge you don't say yeah
01:15:05
isn't that crazy when the Caldwell's attorney because remember she's a Caldwell now uh when their attorney
01:15:10
David Arnold called margorie to let her know that her mother had been murdered Marjorie reacted as one would expect in
01:15:17
such a situation sobbing and asking a series of relevant questions but as the conversation went on the the lawyer
01:15:24
there noticed a change in her tone from hysterical to very businesslike as she went through the checklist of things
01:15:31
that needed to be done for the funeral and then she insisted she would need him to wire her money for the expenses ah
01:15:37
there it is right back to money right on it now just days of learn uh uh after learning of her mother's murder Marjorie
01:15:44
put in an offer on a $300,000 Ranch in Colorado Jesus Christ which um struck investigators as strange you don't you
01:15:52
know what I'm glad that these idiots do these things like right off the bat cuz it's
01:15:59
like thank you for just like showing us exactly who you are but it's like my God
01:16:04
like what like are you kidding because remember they had been in dire streets before her mother had been killed and
01:16:10
now suddenly she has $300,000 to offer what's that about yeah so investigators were like hm that's weird that's
01:16:16
suspicious not suspicious and later that afternoon during a conversation with Roger on the phone marjorie's cousin and
01:16:23
exeutive of Elizabeth's estate Tom conden could hear Marjorie screaming at Roger in the background saying that her
01:16:29
cousin's Bill and Vera Dunbar had quote arranged to kill her mother for the money wow so now she's like screaming at
01:16:38
her husband that her cousin did it to get money wow and he was like I'm just the executive of the he's like you know
01:16:46
what just I'm just out here so on the morning of June 29th detective sat down to interview margorie and Roger at the
01:16:52
duth uh police station cuz they were like we'd like to ask you so many questions so many questions now margorie
01:16:58
gave rambling and very contradictory answers to the investigators questions but detectives as she was pulling that
01:17:05
[ __ ] noticed that the top of Roger's right hand was swollen huh and he had a cut on the right side of his lip shut up
01:17:12
remember Elizabeth fought back oh shut the [ __ ] up so when they asked how it happened Roger couldn't give them an
01:17:19
answer he didn't even try to he just couldn't he didn't even come up with the story he was just like he just like I
01:17:24
don't know that's weird I know he like I just woke up one day and my hand was swollen and my lip was split it happens
01:17:29
now at the end of the interview the detectives asked if they would be willing to take a polygraph test like
01:17:34
the rest of the family had volunteered to do yeah and both of them declined oh boy now while police were
01:17:42
interviewing the couple a separate set of investigators were uh searching their hotel room ah uh at the duth r uh Rison
01:17:49
I believe where they found a receipt dated June 27th from host of Minneapolis a gift shop located in the
01:17:59
airport imagine that wow it's like guys I mean I'm glad I'm glad they're this dumb but
01:18:07
damn excuse me I was going to say when when detectiv spoke to the clerk at host of
01:18:15
Minneapolis they verified that a man matching Roger's description purchased a garment bag on the day of the murder huh
01:18:22
now days later that same clerk would pick Roger out of a photo array and identify him as the man who purchased
01:18:28
the bag Jesus now the receipt and verification from the clerk at the shop prompted investigators to shift their
01:18:35
focus from you know the burglary gone wrong Theory to huh to the possibility that Ro Roger and margerie there might
01:18:42
be involved in the robbery and murder it's like huh maybe inheritance is a thing here maybe I'm like you guys
01:18:47
didn't [ __ ] think that immediately like come on like hello that wasn't on your radar now their suspicions were St
01:18:52
strengthened a couple days later when a hotel clerk in Colorado alerted them to an envelope addressed to Roger and
01:18:59
postmarked June 27th from duth so once they obtained a warrant investigators opened the envelope and found that it
01:19:05
contained a 1700 year-old Byzantine coin determined to be one of the antique coins stolen from a memorabilia case in
01:19:14
Elizabeth's bedroom holy [ __ ] at Glen Sheen So based on the mounting evidence against them police executed a search
01:19:22
warrant at the calwell home on July 5th oh you don't say and during the uh execution of that warrant they found the
01:19:30
garment bag that had been bought at host of Minneapolis in the airport my God they're just like here it is here it
01:19:36
literally is along with several items known to have been stolen from Glen Sheen including a plastic panty hose
01:19:43
container that had been filled with jewelry stolen from Elizabeth's bedroom wow uh-huh and they're just going to
01:19:51
sleep just just you know like just know I just I can't I can't at all the evidence
01:19:58
collected at the house proved to be sufficient for a warrant for Roger's arrest and later that night just after
01:20:05
midnight Roger Caldwell was arrested for the murders of Elizabeth conden and Velma ptil good petla excuse me now on
01:20:13
July 8th 1977 Roger Caldwell appeared in a St Louis St Louis County Court where he was arraigned on two counts of
01:20:20
first-degree murder now meanwhile margorie who hadn't been charged with anything just yet hired Minneapolis
01:20:27
criminal attorney Ronald mesh Basher to present her during the proceedings in a statement to the Press mesh Basher said
01:20:35
that Marjorie was considering possible lawsuits against investigating authorities and the Press whoa he
01:20:41
explained the Press coverage in many cases has concerned her they paint a grim picture of her alleged involvement
01:20:47
in this matter oh boy it's like her mother's stolen jewelry was in her home along with like a 1700 year old coin
01:20:54
that's not a great look for her not a great look for her now while her husband was being arraigned for the murders of
01:21:00
her mother in Velma marjerie was in Minneapolis scheming for a way to get herself out of trouble according to mesh
01:21:07
Basher margorie needed to stay in Minneapolis to care her uh care for her son who was quote suffering from a very
01:21:13
serious asthmatic condition oh we're still MH still playing that for that he I think he did have asthma he just
01:21:19
didn't have cystic fibrosis now he also explained that she may need to ultimately return to
01:21:25
Colorado for the sake of his health AKA outrun the the police like she might need to run away from you they're going
01:21:33
to come get you yeah now whatever her reasons were for avoiding the press and authorities marjerie wasn't entirely
01:21:38
wrong about how she was being portrayed in news reports as soon as reporters learned of the investigation into Roger
01:21:45
and margerie it didn't take long for them to dig up all of the information regard uh related to their criminal
01:21:51
investigations and remember those fraud charges in Colorado yeah and there were also several family family members
01:21:59
family members family members family members who confirmed reports of margery's estrangement from the rest of
01:22:05
the family and they were all quick to add that marjerie quote felt alienated from the family for reasons that she
01:22:13
created wow yeah uhhuh okay now on July 14th detectives in Colorado located a safety deposit deposit I'm really losing
01:22:23
it here you guys dep Deposit they located a safety deposit box at Golden State Bank opened by Roger on June 28th
01:22:33
the day after everything happened now among the documents in the Box detectives discovered a handwritten
01:22:39
notorized will dated June 24th written by Marjorie giving Roger her share of her grandfather's estate upon her
01:22:47
mother's death whoa assuming it was all legal the document meant that in the event of Elizabeth Conan's death Roger
01:22:55
Caldwell could receive roughly $2.5 million holy [ __ ] how strange that's really wacky mhm that just a couple days
01:23:04
before she died you had the wherewithal to write that coincidences coincidence you know that's the thing now given that
01:23:11
it was dated just a few a few days before the murders were committed marjorie's handwritten will looked to
01:23:16
detectives like a very good motive for murder sure did now a month later on August 5th Roger was indicted by a grand
01:23:23
jury for the murders of Elizabeth and Velma and among the strongest evidence in the indictment was the newly written
01:23:30
will which may have implicated marjerie into the plot to murder her mother and probably by no coincidence just a few
01:23:37
days after Roger appearance in court Marjorie went to the Minnesota Police Department to report that a man quote
01:23:44
dressed like a cop had attacked her with a razor at her son's apartment telling her to stay away from duth and to not
01:23:51
help her husband okay Marjorie said that she had seen the man before and she believed that he was
01:23:57
a duth police detective wow and she also claimed that the F the phone in her son's apartment where she was staying
01:24:04
had been tapped and she had been followed by a man driving a lime green car with a pointy front Okay so now
01:24:11
she's basically trying to say like you guys are intimidating me yeah which I don't know if that's true or not
01:24:16
personally I doubt it Marjorie did have slashes on the left side of her face her
01:24:21
left breast and her left older jeez but the Doctor Who treated her wounds at Mercy Hospital told investigators that
01:24:27
he believed they were self-inflicted EK so yeah now on August 11th investigators
01:24:34
released a statement about margery's supposed attack telling the Press we have no reason at this time to believe
01:24:39
that an assault was perpetrated on Miss Caldwell as reported now the police were very vague
01:24:45
in their responses but a spokesperson for the Department did explain that the cause had been unfounded meaning that it
01:24:52
had been investigated and was proven that the crime either did not happen or was not attempted oh no they said why
01:24:58
you always exactly that's the thing margery's claims about being attacked were very clearly an attempt to
01:25:05
undermine the investigation into the murders and the Public's faith in the duth police department but as soon as
01:25:14
she realized they didn't believe her story and that she could have been held accountable for making false reports
01:25:19
yeah she told her lawyer to request that the uh investigation into her report be
01:25:24
discontinued oh she said you know what never mind that happened but don't investigate it yeah don't no don't do
01:25:30
that girly pop don't do that so Roger appeared in court again on February 27th where he pleaded not guilty to both
01:25:38
charges of uh charges of first-degree murder and a trial date was set for early April now due to the prominence of
01:25:45
the case and the heavy coverage that it was getting in the press the judge Jack Litman he ended up moving the trial from
01:25:51
duth to brainer Minnesota mhm and he explained the decision saying the kden name here has been known for uh excuse
01:25:58
me the kden name has been known here for a century and then he noted the numerous
01:26:03
Street schools and other landmarks that were uh bearing the family's name and added that the famili familiarity I can
01:26:10
never say that that's a hard one it is could potentially pre uh Prejudice jurors okay so he was like you'll get an
01:26:17
unfair trial basic yeah like that won't be that won't be sick for you yes so in brainer the child finally began on May
01:26:23
9th 1978 with prosecutor John DeSanto summing up the case in his opening statements he told the D told the jury
01:26:31
these murders were motivated crimes and he said Roger was experiencing an quote almost unimaginable buildup of financial
01:26:38
pressures and believed that the money from The Inheritance would solve all of his Pro uh problems makes sense yep and
01:26:45
over the course of four weeks and testimony from 103 Witnesses the prosecution laid out their case against
01:26:51
Roger mainly focusing on the extent of his and marjorie's financial problems fraud and incredible debt the jury was
01:26:59
also shown a large amount of forensic evidence including fingerprints and hair found in the house that matched Roger
01:27:06
Caldwell oo the jewelry found in Roger uh Roger's possession which was Elizabeth's and had been stolen from her
01:27:13
bedroom it's pretty open and shut and the will that had been written up by marjerie just days before the murders
01:27:19
yeah it's not looking good taken together Danto told the jury that Will was a carrot not too hard to
01:27:25
swallow she like what okay I don't know you're like so you're saying I was like what exactly does that
01:27:33
mean sir I'm not really sure I don't know it's we'll take it though sure so Roger defense attorney put carrots aside
01:27:39
Douglas Thompson just tried to undermine the state's Case by calling the key testimony given on behalf of the
01:27:44
prosecution into question for example they said the cuts on Roger hands and face that investigators believe to have
01:27:51
been caused during the attack on Elizabeth could have come from anywhere yeah of course he didn't remember where
01:27:56
but they could have come from anywhere again who doesn't wake up with abrasions yeah all the time like do I wake up with
01:28:03
random bruises yes do I wake up with a split lip uh unexplicably no no never happened to me so Thompson argued that
01:28:10
the small injury above uh Roger's lip was actually a cold sore not a wound um don't be rude okay yeah he's got he's
01:28:18
got a cold sword investigators were like there's a difference between like a split in a cold sore but okay absolutely
01:28:24
now while much of his time was spent undermining the prosecutions argument Thompson's primary tactic was to shift
01:28:30
blame away from his client and toward margorie in his cross-examination of uh the Caldwell's former attorney David
01:28:36
Arnold Thompson kept a tight focus on the fact that the vast majority of the financial problems were the result of
01:28:43
margery's impulsive Reckless spending but the problem was that Marjorie had an alibi which placed her in Colorado on
01:28:51
the morning of the murder o slippery Margery slippery Margery and the forensic evidence suggested that
01:28:57
whoever had killed Velma and lifted her body onto the window seat would have required considerable strength there you
01:29:04
go so while you may want to point the finger there at Marjorie I think it might have been Roger who was there that
01:29:11
morning I think you might be right so compared to the robust case presented by the prosecution Thompson's case was
01:29:18
brief and pretty weak yeah he just relied more on margery's poor reput reputation and public speculation than
01:29:26
on evidence of his actual client's innocence yeah he was like don't pay attention to any of that because it's
01:29:31
like that's great like you're not wrong Marjorie does have a pretty bad reputation but she's not on trial right
01:29:36
now your client is and her like everything isn't found at the crime scene right now exactly now closing
01:29:43
arguments were presented on July 5th during which prosecutor John DeSanto addressed Thompson's attempt to deflect
01:29:49
blame onto Margery he told the jury that if Marjorie was involved at all it was in creating the will which he called A
01:29:56
desperate attempt to persuade Roger Caldwell to go to duth and commit murder ah he reminded the jury though that this
01:30:03
case was about the act of murder and in that regard the evidence pointed directly at Roger Caldwell so the jury
01:30:10
deliberated for three days before finally returning guilty verdicts on both counts of first-degree murder you
01:30:17
guilty guilty guilty when the verdict was read in the courtroom Roger turned to the jury and said Softly You're wrong
01:30:25
just turned to them and said you're wrong and then I wish one of them just said no I'm not maybe they did I I
01:30:32
didn't find that but they may have incorrect wrong you're wrong you are Imagine they just kept going back and
01:30:40
they just and then the judge had to be like okay he's like this is a murder trial chill so outside of the courtroom
01:30:44
John De Santos indicated to the press that while Roger's trial had come to an end the casee was far from concluded he
01:30:51
he told them this was just the end of step one and when asked if he intended to go after margorie next he replied
01:30:57
probably that's all I can say right now wow that's casual I love the D just like
01:31:01
yeah probs yeah probably I'll see how it all shakes out you know now two days later on July 10th Roger was sentenced
01:31:07
to two consecutive life sentences for the murders of Elizabeth conden and Velma petla and sent to Still Water
01:31:13
State Prison to begin serving his sentence bye Roger the next day margorie was arrested on two counts of
01:31:20
first-degree murder and two counts of conspiracy to commit murder I love that he just said probably and then
01:31:25
immediately it was like and here you go def now on August 18th 1978 a grand jury
01:31:31
was convened and margerie was indicted on two counts of aiding and abetting murder in the first degree and two
01:31:36
counts of conspiracy to commit murder bye bye you would think in the I don't know in the indictment the prosecutor
01:31:45
alleged that Margery quote coaxed her husband into killing her mother by signing over to him 3 days before the
01:31:50
murder her interest in one of the trusts worth $2.6 million with regard to velma's murder
01:31:56
the prosecution argu argued that quote her death should have been foreseeable as a probable consequence of trying to
01:32:03
kill conden oh God it's so awful like the the I mean obviously Elizabeth's murder is brutal and awful and tragic in
01:32:12
its own way of course and then but like Velma was just like wrong place wrong time she was just collateral damage it's
01:32:18
like that is so tragic horrible but they said because like her death was foreseeable and a probable consequence
01:32:26
margerie should be held equally responsible yeah and just like the previous case the considerable media
01:32:31
coverage presented a challenge in trying it so margery's case too was moved from
01:32:37
St Louis St Louis to Dakota County in January okay with the jury selection scheduled to begin in early of uh April
01:32:45
1979 now opening statements began on April 27th with John Danto telling the jury that Marjorie had convinced her
01:32:52
husband to murder Elizabeth her mother in order to access her inheritance and in a case closely
01:32:59
resembling the one that he made against Roger Caldwell DeSanto gave a detailed description of margery's troubled and
01:33:05
troubling Financial history her fraud attempts and he pointed specifically to a recent conversation she'd had with an
01:33:12
acquaintance where she said quote the only way to get out of my financial troubles is my mother's
01:33:19
death wow like girl Wow first of all who the [ __ ] says that and second of all who
01:33:28
the [ __ ] says that and then acts out on it and who hears that and is just like
01:33:34
well I guess I'll go about my life now like I'd be like what the [ __ ] luckily that person was like hey she said to me
01:33:39
thank goodness but given the amount of detailed information the prosecutor had dug up related to marjorie's fraud and
01:33:44
financial problems and the fact that a total of 167 Witnesses were called the dragged on for 2 and a half months D
01:33:54
Santo's argument was exactly or essentially the same that he had presented against Roger calwell she
01:34:00
convinced her husband to murder her mom in exchange for a significant portion of
01:34:03
her inheritance then conspired to cover up her involvement with a series of lies
01:34:08
and deceitful attempts to place the blame on Roger now for his part margery's defense attorney Ronald mesh
01:34:15
Basher took a similar approach as to that of Roger's attorney which like I don't know why he would do that he just
01:34:21
lost yeah it didn't seem to work out but he suggested that the crime could have been committed by any one of the other
01:34:26
family members who stood to inherit money from Elizabeth's estate it's like were all of them in the same kind of
01:34:33
Dire Straits that on let's like I mean I know you got to do your job but like that was weak really now one of mesh
01:34:40
besser's primary targets was Elizabeth's nephew Thomas kden also the executive of
01:34:44
her will who hired a private detective in the weeks following Elizabeth's death o that was probably to find out who
01:34:51
murdered her in my opinion yeah I would say so right but mesh feser repeatedly reminded the jury Ferman who was the
01:34:58
private detective or one of his associates was conveniently nearby each time a piece of evidence appearing to
01:35:03
incriminate the caldwells was discovered by police huh so basically he was trying
01:35:08
to say that like Thomas or the private investigator was like planting yeah planting evidence and giving it to the
01:35:17
wow to the investigators but it's like did they plant the evidence inside of margerie and Roger's home yeah exactly
01:35:25
at the airport that's the thing that kills I'm like yeah okay and then they went and told the guy like point this
01:35:30
specific man out in a lineup like what what a conspiracy theory yeah I don't think so so essentially his approach to
01:35:35
marjorie's defense was just to create enough doubt in the minds of the jury that they simply couldn't find her
01:35:40
guilty Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and it worked oh no it worked on yep on July 21st 1979 after just just one day of
01:35:53
deliberation the jury returned verdicts of not guilty on all counts I'm shocked isn't that crazy when
01:36:02
reporters asked one of the jurors why they voted to acquit she responded oh I'm not saying but it was all Marge and
01:36:08
Mr mesh Basher Marge wow just Marge your girl you know Marge later that same jury
01:36:16
member called Marjorie and asked her for an autograph for her mother I'm sorry what the jury member called
01:36:25
margorie and was like hey my mom's a big fan can I get an autograph I'm not sure what to say about
01:36:33
that what is there to be a fan of I'm not sure so when asked whether the outcome in margery's case called for a
01:36:40
new trial for Roger uh John Des Santos strongly disagreed and said I think the jury said we didn't prove margerie
01:36:46
Caldwell did it I have no doubt whatsoever that margorie Caldwell is guilty wow we couldn't prove it but
01:36:52
she's guilty oh that's awful yeah but don't worry the rest of her life was not great okay but before we get there on
01:36:59
September 20th 1979 a postconviction relief hearing was held in duth where Roger Caldwell sought a new trial based
01:37:07
on a handwriting analysis that uncover uh uncovered during marjorie's trial that could have influenced the outcome
01:37:13
in his case huh mhm on April 21st 1980 after seriously considering the arguments judge man determined that the
01:37:22
evidence presented in margery's uh trial wouldn't have swayed the jury in Rogers
01:37:27
case so his request for a new trial was declined by however on appeal the state supreme court disagreed with that judge
01:37:34
and did overturn Roger's guilty verdict what citing the significance of questionable fingerprint evidence used
01:37:41
to convict him come on now on September 1st 1982 after serving more than 5 years
01:37:47
in prison Roger was released from Stillwater pending a new new date for retrial of the case now rather than go
01:37:55
through the entire case again DeSanto offered Roger a plea deal where he would plead guilty to two counts of second
01:38:01
deegree murder and make a full confession in exchange for a sentence of time served what so Roger aged agreed to
01:38:10
the deal but unfortunately his confession didn't offer any new insight into the murders or information that
01:38:16
they could have used to go after margorie so they both kind of got away with this now 6 years later on May 18th
01:38:26
1988 Roger actually ended up ending his own life at his childhood home in Pennsylvania oh he had been suffering
01:38:33
from rheumatoid arthritis and alcoholism for many years which contributed significantly to his depression and I
01:38:40
don't know maybe he was living with some guilt wow but in the Years following his
01:38:45
release he lived in constant fear of being reincar reincarceration he struggled to maintain
01:38:52
employment and any kind of Independence because of that damn and something that was particularly difficult for him he
01:38:57
said was that Marjorie completely abandoned him once he went to prison oh my God and provided no financial support
01:39:04
of any kind [ __ ] he told a friend shortly before his death it really offends me that she totally abandoned me
01:39:11
it just isn't right you don't treat people that way as thickheaded and naive I was it's clear she was always lying to
01:39:16
me yeah so she just like he potentially murdered her [ __ ] mother like personally I believe he did holy [ __ ]
01:39:26
and then she just was like thanks bye I am just after he went to prison for like
01:39:31
5 years I was just like oh well that's that and didn't get anything that she had promised him allegedly now after her
01:39:38
acquittal Marjorie resumed and ramped up her suspicious Behavior compulsive lying
01:39:43
and fraud in ways that no one could have expected just after the trial five of her seven children filed a civil lawsuit
01:39:51
suit against her in an attempt to disinherit her from her inheritance on the grounds that they had evidence of
01:39:59
her involvement in the murders whoa now the lawsuit was settled out of court in July 1983 so I don't know what happened
01:40:06
with that in March of 1981 Marjorie visited her friend Helen Hagen at the twin Birch nursing home where she was
01:40:14
seen feeding Helen just prior to leaving the facility the next day Helen slipped
01:40:18
into a coma and died days later on March 30th after margerie or excuse me after Helen's death marjerie started dating
01:40:26
Helen's husband oh my God stop Wall-E and they eventually married in August despite the fact that margorie was still
01:40:35
legally married to Roger Caldwell what the [ __ ] the next year margorie and Wally's home in Mound Minnesota uh
01:40:43
burned down under mysterious circumstances now the second home to have burned down after a lengthy
01:40:49
investigation margerie was arrest arrested for the arson and in January of 1984 a jury found her guilty of arson
01:40:56
and insurance fraud for which she was sentenced to 21 months at the state women's prison in
01:41:02
Minnesota uh she appealed the verdict arguing that the prosecutor had insufficient evidence for a conviction
01:41:09
but the Minnesota State uh excuse me Minnesota court of appeals disagreed and they did uphold upholds her conviction
01:41:16
holy [ __ ] so she was released in October of uh 1986 and she and her husband Wally
01:41:22
that she had taken after Helen's death yeah they moved to Arizona where she continued her pattern of excessive and
01:41:30
impulsive spending and fraud police there in Arizona suspected margerie of being involved in several arson arson
01:41:38
cases and in October of 1992 she went to trial on October 29th 1992 another jury
01:41:46
convicted her of arson and sentenced her to 15 years in prison what the [ __ ] but before beginning her sentence she
01:41:53
was uh she convinced the judge to allow her one day to return home and help her husband deal with their Affairs the next
01:42:01
day her husband was found dead in the couple's home shut up and margorie was arrested for his
01:42:08
murder oh my God unfortunately the medical examiner determined the cause of death to be a
01:42:15
drug overdose and admitted that it could have been the result of suicide so the murder charges were dropped I'm sorry
01:42:23
how does this woman have all this [ __ ] happen around her and no one's connecting any dots like they're trying
01:42:28
but she just keeps like skipping out on it so she served her sentence for the Aron that 15-year sentence um at the
01:42:36
Arizona State woman's prison in Goodyear Arizona but she was granted earned release on January 5th 2005 so she did
01:42:44
not serve her uh full sentence and after her release she decided to remain in Tucson where she continued the pattern
01:42:51
of behavior that plagued her for nearly her entire life including arrests for theft and fraud as recent as
01:42:58
2007 what and that is the story of the murders of Elizabeth conden and Velma petla and Marjorie wow who just did a
01:43:09
whole bunch of [ __ ] and like kind of got caught but never got held accountable
01:43:15
wow yeah that's unbelievable isn't that a harrowing tale that is a harrowing tale
01:43:23
she may have murdered 1 two three four people and never spent time in prison for murder wow isn't that never went to
01:43:34
prison for murder I am just like Shook and may have killed four people allegedly wow [ __ ] what a
01:43:43
harrowing damn so there's that for our return from the Paranormal wow okay and and poor Elizabeth and poor Velma and
01:43:52
poor velma's husband yeah just like this and poor yeah and like Roger Caldwell I
01:43:59
don't know about him they're just out there trying to do their best yeah not Roger OB not Roger I mean felma andma
01:44:05
and Elizabeth yeah and Helen probably yeah just really really tragic case she is a dangerous woman yeah yeah D but um
01:44:14
we hope you keep listening yeah and we hope you keep it weird but not we that you pull any kind of marjerie because
01:44:21
margorie is scary yeah bye [Music] bye

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

  • 90
    Most shocking
  • 90
    Biggest twist
  • 85
    Most dramatic
  • 85
    Most unpredictable

Episode Highlights

  • Spooky Season Wrap-Up
    Elina and Ash discuss the end of spooky season and their Halloween experiences.
    “Happy post-Halloween!”
    @ 01m 30s
    November 02, 2023
  • Chester's Legacy
    Chester Conden's life and contributions are celebrated after his unexpected death.
    “He was a good man with sound instincts.”
    @ 12m 52s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Complex Childhood
    Marjorie was a wild child with behavioral issues stemming from her insecurities about being adopted.
    “She was kind of just this wild child that never really was able to be tamed.”
    @ 21m 20s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Spending Problems
    Marjorie's compulsive spending and lying escalated after her marriage to Dick Leroy.
    “Marjorie's spending wasn't always on minor things like clothes or jewelry.”
    @ 34m 57s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Reckless Spending
    Marjorie bought a $32,000 home without consulting her husband, leading to financial chaos.
    “She bought a whole ass home without consulting her partner!”
    @ 39m 26s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Manipulation
    Marjorie coerced her mother into co-signing a massive loan, leading to legal troubles.
    “She admitted to obtaining her mother's signature by duress.”
    @ 47m 51s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Financial Struggles
    Marjorie desperately sought $750,000 to fund her horse farm dream, but her request was denied.
    “They still refused the request and later it was confirmed that that was not real.”
    @ 59m 41s
    November 02, 2023
  • The Murders at Glen Sheen
    Nurse Velma and Elizabeth were found dead in a brutal double murder at Glen Sheen.
    “She'd been smothered and her jewelry was missing.”
    @ 01h 06m 06s
    November 02, 2023
  • Suspicious Behavior After the Murder
    Marjorie's quick offer on a $300,000 ranch raised eyebrows among investigators.
    “Investigators were like, 'That's weird, that's suspicious.'”
    @ 01h 16m 15s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Alibi
    Marjorie claims she was in Minneapolis caring for her son during the murders.
    @ 01h 21m 08s
    November 02, 2023
  • Marjorie's Indictment
    Marjorie was indicted on two counts of aiding and abetting murder shortly after Roger's conviction.
    @ 01h 31m 24s
    November 02, 2023
  • Roger Caldwell's Tragic End
    After years of struggle, Roger Caldwell took his own life, haunted by his past and Margorie's abandonment.
    “It really offends me that she totally abandoned me.”
    @ 01h 39m 07s
    November 02, 2023

Episode Quotes

  • That's called metamorph!
    The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast
  • I had never hated anyone so damn much in all my life.
    The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast
  • Oh my God, wild! We got to stop this lady!
    The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast
  • Holy [ __ ]! Spent $100,000 in one month!
    The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast
  • Holy [ __ ] at Glen Sheen!
    The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast
  • I'm shocked!
    The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila | Morbid | Podcast

Key Moments

  • Adoption Journey18:24
  • Deceptive Marriage36:43
  • Nasty Divorce45:49
  • Coercion and Fraud47:51
  • Double Murder1:06:06
  • Indictment1:31:24
  • Roger's Confession1:38:06
  • Tragic Suicide1:38:28

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown