00:00:00
hey weirdos I'm Elena I'm Ash and this is morbid [Music] there's a [ __ ] fruit fly in my face
00:00:27
and he's about to catch these goddamn hands it's fruit fly season you get the apple cider vinegar out fellas get it
00:00:35
out everyone these little [ __ ] it's that time of year someone's gonna be like I love fruit flies and you
00:00:41
shouldn't kill them you [ __ ] um no they're not great no sorry I'm sorry I'm not a fan I will never be a
00:00:50
fan just like I'll never be a fan of house centipedes oh God yeah even though I we
00:00:55
got to see a lot of our Network um babies this the last week yeah and I was talking to Sean
00:01:03
um from moosely horror go listen to it it's great and he was saying he would much prefer a
00:01:08
house centipede over a cockroach and I said I would take him either please you know what I just heard in my head choose
00:01:14
your fighter that's a yes that's basically the conversation we had and I can't choose I don't want either no
00:01:21
that's a Sophie I can't do it yeah I can't do it no and actually yesterday this is pretty funny and also
00:01:27
embarrassing oh I like this story I was getting I was getting it was Mother's Day so I got my like allotted you know
00:01:34
however much time just by myself to get ready like that was much like any time I
00:01:40
just want to take a shower alone like without kids being like hello like can I ask you questions while you're showering
00:01:47
and just like put makeup on do my hair you look super cute in your hair I was like damn appreciated that's what
00:01:53
happens when I get uninterrupted time to do my hair but I was doing that and I had picked up my towel to get something
00:02:01
in my hair tie a black hair tie fell out of it onto the bathroom floor and then somehow
00:02:07
it rolled on its side I've seen that so it rolled very quickly across the floor I thought it was some kind of awful bug
00:02:16
that fell out of my towel and I yelped so loudly I don't blame you I have never yelped like that for like a natural
00:02:25
reaction you just yelped I yelped straight up yellow like my dog it was like a I can't even recreate it
00:02:32
because it was just a real like organic nervous system response can happen at least you don't even know of but when it
00:02:40
settled on the floor and I said oh that's a hair elastic I was very embarrassed all by myself
00:02:47
that's that's funny though it was funny but it was very embarrassing no one was there to witness it but it was
00:02:54
embarrassing did you law let yourself I did I laughed immediately afterwards but
00:02:58
I was like damn that was really ridiculous and then you look in the mirror and you're like that's a moment
00:03:02
we just yeah literally like I looked at myself and I was like don't tell anyone that there you are telling everyone here
00:03:09
I am that's hilarious but yeah that's how afraid I am of things that run really fast on the floor I don't like it
00:03:14
nobody needs that many legs no no like thank goodness I have two dogs now who will eat everything that runs across the
00:03:22
floor ew I don't want them to eat a house centipede yeah they're fine they're good all right how do we change
00:03:26
the subject they're also going to be [ __ ] huge these dogs what are you not gonna be they already are man I'm
00:03:32
getting huge and they're just gloops they're like 35 pounds yeah they're like huge Dickens McGee's again big and
00:03:40
they're gonna be like 100 pounds those about ladies those are my hellhounds 200 pounds of
00:03:46
badassery oh yeah they are they're literally gonna be a hundred pounds each I think and like give or take we're
00:03:54
basically they're gonna and they're already like ready to protect my kids um with their lives yeah I'm just gonna
00:04:02
train them to like eat people alive yeah I'm totally kidding so don't call like an animal shelter or something I don't
00:04:08
know I'm not training them to eat people don't worry no no never they just eat like
00:04:14
dog food yeah and like they'll just eat you if you're a dick yeah don't be a dick yeah because they'll eat you don't
00:04:20
need to because my dogs will eat you plant and Sydney will eat your ass so I'm just kidding everybody but they're
00:04:27
great and you know now I think it's time to get into some true crime because we have had our chitty chat our little chit
00:04:34
chat a little Chit Chat Chit Chat pit pat um yeah this is honestly a long one settle in and it's gonna be a two Potter
00:04:42
oh we got a two Potter so get ready for a cliffhanger my guys oh my goodness yeah all right I'm ready we're going
00:04:51
over especially because it's like you know like five years of morbid holy [ __ ]
00:04:54
let's do big cases Elena did five parts of the HH Home Series which if you haven't listened to that eat yourself
00:05:00
back there and now I'm doing a really big story also about somebody from New Hampshire look at that except my whole
00:05:07
thing takes place in New Hampshire oh she doesn't like Vibe around the country thank goodness she doesn't or the the
00:05:14
world I should say no no she doesn't do any of that we're gonna be talking about
00:05:18
Pamela Smart today I know that name you know that me too I feel like a lot of people like at least here in New England
00:05:24
are familiar with that name yeah but if it's a name you've never heard of or it doesn't ring a bell quite yet we'll get
00:05:31
a stat at the beginning here it is here it is honey so one of the key people at the center of the story obviously is
00:05:38
Pamela yummy I believe her maiden name is wohas or vohas okay I tried to look it up and it like nope nowhere they were
00:05:48
like no you type in w-o-j-a-s pronunciation and it gives you many many pronunciations for every other word I
00:05:56
love that yeah so I tried you gave it a shot I watched her do it she did it was here yeah so anyways Pam Pammy was born
00:06:04
on August 16th 1967 in Miami Florida she was the second of three children born to
00:06:11
John and Linda wilhos there you go no John and Linda they had gotten married pretty young and in the early years of
00:06:17
their marriage and as parents they struggled to make ends meet but both of them worked super super hard John worked
00:06:24
at a printing company and Linda was a stenographer whoa I know we got stenographers again stenographers in the
00:06:32
house wow but so they both worked like super super hard and eventually that hard work paid off and they were both
00:06:38
able to kinda climb that corporate ladder good for them so now they were more like upper middle class and they
00:06:45
had money to spend on their kids that their parents never really had to spend on them but at the same time they were
00:06:51
living in late 60s early 70s Miami and while their neighborhood was a safe place to live the rest of Miami was not
00:06:58
exactly the safest at this point in time violent crime was on the rise social tensions were flaring so John and Linda
00:07:06
were going back and forth throughout the years deciding on whether they should stay or if they should move back to mass
00:07:11
where they had both grown up masks you say Massachusetts Massachusetts out of that place but the decision kind
00:07:20
of made itself for them when the riots in Miami started now if you're not familiar with the Miami riots they did
00:07:26
take place in 1980 after an all-white jury acquitted four policemen who had beaten a black man Arthur McDuffie to
00:07:34
death which like really scary how history repeats itself hmm they were like yeah
00:07:40
we should get out of here yeah so they had both grown up actually in Lowell Massachusetts and they were so weird to
00:07:46
hear like I know you know not a lot of like our stories are this close to no and this one's like I was in New
00:07:54
Hampshire this past week yeah like I was like in this area yeah so they had both grown up in Lowell and
00:08:00
they would always take their kids to New Hampshire during summer vacation so after thinking about it for a while they
00:08:06
decided you know what why don't we move to New Hampshire like we love it so much
00:08:09
we love to spend our summers there why don't we move to Windham New Hampshire and it was in 1980 that they decided to
00:08:16
do that now Windham was a safe quiet town and the nearby areas provided a lot of job opportunities so they knew it was
00:08:23
going to be like a good move yeah John actually got a job at Boston's Logan Airport oh hey which it was weird to
00:08:30
write Boston's Logan Airport because it's just Logan to us it's just Logan and he actually eventually became a
00:08:36
pilot damn and flew commercial jets for Delta wow good for John isn't that crazy
00:08:41
that's badass he made really good money and he was able to provide a lot for his
00:08:45
kids like as far as home and activities were concerned but because his job was as a pilot and he worked for a
00:08:52
commercial airline he did have to travel a ton and he was away from the family for stretches of time yeah that's a big
00:08:58
toss-up I'm always amazed at Pilots imagine just what if you're [ __ ] flying through the air like imagine
00:09:04
being like yeah I just fly planes for a living that's my job is I just bring 180
00:09:12
people onto this plane and then I fly them across the country and then I have to land it safely and do it all again
00:09:18
like an hour later like if you're a pilot listening pour one out for Pilots because my my guys my gals like you are
00:09:27
whoa also imagine how fun that would be yeah I would love to fly well you can't but I would love to fly a plane I would
00:09:37
love that I mean I imagine if you are a pilot you love to fly so I'm sure it is a [ __ ] Blast for them just like
00:09:43
yeehaw and also Pilots always make me feel better whenever I talk to a pilot they're always very like good at making
00:09:50
you understand how safe flying is I'm always like I trust you yeah I trust you with my life literally so I guess you
00:09:57
would have trusted John I would have another good job he did love uh yeah I'm pretty sure okay cool but
00:10:04
the thing was he was struggling with his family especially like his wife and his
00:10:08
kids because that's what your family is um but because he had to be away for so long
00:10:13
and most of Pam's high school friends they have a ton of memories about her mom but they don't really remember her
00:10:18
dad that much because he was away yeah now some of those close friends that is tough but some of those close friends
00:10:24
who did remember Pam's dad really just remembered that he and Pam were never close hmm one of those friends Sonia
00:10:31
Simon would put it that Pam quote didn't really have a close relationship with her dad but then again he really wasn't
00:10:36
home much I think she thought he was kind of cheap which is like oh I think he's just working he's trying and the
00:10:45
thing is like from what I read at least again I did not grow up in this house I don't think he seemed very cheap I think
00:10:51
it was more that he wanted his kids to know how it took hard work to make money well they had lived through living
00:10:59
paycheck to paycheck and dime to Dime yup they know what it's like to have to stretch that dollar as far as you can so
00:11:07
getting money after that I think it's like you are automatically still in that mindset of like I need to make this last
00:11:14
yeah so you make smart decisions with your money to be honest so just trying to like make it last and you know
00:11:20
they're teaching their kids that like like for instance Pam was to get a job when she was 13. yeah and I think that
00:11:26
was probably the age back I'm sure so I think she was like why do I have to work
00:11:30
so hard yeah like you have money why am I not doing this yeah it's like typical kid [ __ ] exactly but I also can't
00:11:35
imagine like one of my kids describing our relationship is like I wasn't really close to her that she was kind of a lot
00:11:42
like that would be like oof I would think you know like that's a eek yeah that's a knife right there yeah and also
00:11:48
it's like it's not like he was off on the weekends like gambling and like picking up girls he was just being a
00:11:54
pilot but like I said Pam got a job when she was 13. it doesn't sound like she was that happy about it uh but it was
00:12:00
right when they moved to New Hampshire she worked part-time at a bakery and also a Dairy Queen which like makes me
00:12:06
want one of those chocolate dipped cups oh yeah so [ __ ] good the swirl now later people seem to think that Pam
00:12:14
had it a little hard at home and they felt like she grew up too fast but these were like her friends talking okay those
00:12:19
friends would point to little things like the fact that her room was very tidy [ __ ] and span at all times and she
00:12:25
didn't have posters hanging up for magazines or anything like that like you would expect but it's like if if that's
00:12:31
how hard it was like oh no well that's the thing it's like okay sure that I guess that could be like okay what
00:12:39
that's a a different way of having a room as a teenager yeah but I also had some of my best friends that was with
00:12:46
their room it was like and I know their family life and it was perfectly fine same here I literally were that kind of
00:12:51
person maybe she was just a minimalist yeah that's the thing I minimalists [Laughter]
00:12:58
always back to tick tock always but either way even though Pam had been uprooted and moved halfway across the
00:13:04
country at a pretty shitty time in her life and her home life was like maybe a little rigid yeah she still maintained
00:13:10
her personality okay she was known at school and in public as somebody who was assertive outspoken and had a great
00:13:17
sense of humor she really had an easy time making friends especially because she moved when she did like some people
00:13:24
might struggle with that but she did not and in high school or she went to a high
00:13:28
school with over 2 000 students because the high school that she went to um is it was like in a smaller town so
00:13:36
they take kids from the surrounding towns and it's one of those kind of high schools where it's like multiple towns
00:13:41
in one oh okay which is never fair when you play them in sports I was just gonna
00:13:45
say I used to hate this we have one that like um you know in Massachusetts is this in this is in New Hampshire this is
00:13:52
in New Hampshire so it's not the same because we have one I was like is this the one but we have one in Massachusetts
00:13:56
that I used to hate playing in softball all because it was just like they they cut more Pickens yeah way more pictures
00:14:02
and they always [ __ ] cream Dusty softball it was so embarrassing they also had one picture that [ __ ] loved
00:14:08
to hit people on purpose was that picture me no no but she would always hit me and I would get so pissed anyways
00:14:17
enough reminiscing about softball Pam went to high school like that but she was among one of the most popular
00:14:24
students which is really saying something I guess with all those students yeah with all those
00:14:29
students you know her sophomore year she became the class president and she also
00:14:34
earned a spot on the cheer team all good things well yeah it's awesome things that are good but at the same
00:14:41
time she still had what people would call her Dark Side her Dark Passenger Allah Dexter yes one of her classmates
00:14:50
after they graduated said about her I think she was an insecure person I don't think she thought she was better than
00:14:55
everyone else but she wanted people to think she was I know a lot of people like that we all do now Pam always
00:15:02
wanted to be the center of attention especially if that attention was coming from guys and she was known to be super
00:15:09
aggressive if she thought somebody was stepping on her toes no matter what the situation was if he took something she
00:15:15
thought was hers you were done for okay now you can argue that maybe her possessiveness came from a place of
00:15:22
knowing that she worked hard for something and she wanted to guard that thing that she had worked so hard to
00:15:27
achieve but by all accounts she never really did work that hard for anything she had her father would later say quote
00:15:34
Pam was the kind of kid who could get good grades in Excel without putting in all that effort you know the kind of kid
00:15:39
you always hated in high school Pam would get the get the a with one quarter of the effort damn which like is kind of
00:15:46
relatable because I didn't study that much but I always did pretty awesome relatable
00:15:51
I totally get that but it's also been said that she did what she wanted to do when she wanted to do it no matter what
00:15:59
the effect was on anybody else oh that's not good at all we don't love that no Stephen sawicki I believe is how you say
00:16:05
it he wrote teach me to kill which is a great reference on this case I would definitely read it he wrote Pam was
00:16:11
always the student who would steer the classroom discussion away from whatever the teacher had planned on talking about
00:16:16
hold on I [ __ ] that up I'm gonna start that over Pam was always the student who would
00:16:22
steer the classroom discussion away from whatever the teacher had planned to talk
00:16:25
about to what Pam wanted she often undermined them to draw attention to herself wow that would annoy the [ __ ]
00:16:33
out of me if I was the teacher I would be really pissed yeah I would not like that at all he also wrote that as her
00:16:39
High School career went on school officials were catching on to Pam's waist oh she was suspected to have
00:16:45
rigged the election that won her class president sophomore year she rigged an election allegedly allegedly uh she did
00:16:53
not run again her junior year but I but she did rig the election allegedly a sophomore year they also think that they
00:17:01
also thinked I just I mean they think they also thought that Pam may have stolen money from the class funds like
00:17:07
she was skimming off the top while she was President she was a straight-up politician and she was drinking on
00:17:15
school grounds she was a straight-up politician she really was she said I'm ready for the White House
00:17:23
let's go honestly all the way to the top they were like we suspect that um she rigged the election skimmed off the top
00:17:30
and he was like real boozy while doing yeah I was like give that girl a seat in the Senate honestly but while the adults
00:17:37
around Pam were questioning her behavior and finding her attitude uh pretty disrespectful her friends were starting
00:17:44
to idolize her oh she was a bad [ __ ] in their eyes oh yeah bad [ __ ] alert to
00:17:49
them she was this super cool metal chick who worshiped Van Halen and prioritized
00:17:54
always having a good time over everything else we're not here for a long time we're here for a good time my
00:18:00
God no according to her senior yearbook Pam's greatest life Pursuit was quote to
00:18:07
dance the night away with David Lee Roth I'm a singer of Van Halen for those that
00:18:12
don't you know wow yeah what a Pursuit yeah an old friend Laura talked to reporters about Pam in 1991 and she told
00:18:20
the that Pam was quote extremely energetic very involved in always smiling everyone wanted to be close to
00:18:27
her I guess they felt that some of her power would rub off on them hmm so just like it was a power thing very varying
00:18:34
degrees of people people's opinions on Pam but those not infatuated with her started hearing rumors about her being a
00:18:42
little promiscuous cue up Nellie's promiscuous Nelly Furtado right promiscuous yeah yeah you're right yeah
00:18:50
right it's Nelly Furtado and the guy yeah uh am I throwing you off didn't think so
00:18:59
no yeah oh my god look it up oh I was gonna say because everyone's screaming right now and I feel so bad everybody
00:19:05
might be screaming in a second too because I also didn't look up this pronunciation by accident but some
00:19:10
classmates called her secca or Sika um it was a reference to an adult film actress Seka known as the Platinum
00:19:18
princess of porn oh yeah I can I don't know what that is but okay that's um Timberland Timberland
00:19:25
that's what that's what it was my goodness I almost I was like it's not Timberlake I don't know Timberland oh he
00:19:32
Timberland was like in every mom loves Timberlands cool I'll listen music is what I meant cool music he was in
00:19:43
every cool he was in every cool music of the time oh mate no he was but yeah yeah
00:19:48
even ma likes him she does well she loves him well uh but yeah I don't know who Sika or Seka is well she's the
00:19:55
Platinum princess of form or she was back then cool so they called her that because she was a little promiscuous
00:20:02
girl damn um but outwardly she actually seemed to embrace the nickname other students they skipped the references and
00:20:08
they simply referred to her as wham bam thank you Pam I'm not I'm not joking I'm not joking they called her wham bam
00:20:19
thank you Pam okay which just reminds me of Kesha it just reminds me of uh the office
00:20:27
with Pam Beasley there you go and now instead of saying Bam Bam he says pam pam I like that no Pam's High School
00:20:36
boyfriend who in my opinion sounds like a grade a douchebag he would later tell the Boston Globe wild about Pam saying
00:20:43
uh he would tell her he would talk to them about her and he would say she was a wild wild girl we were doing
00:20:49
everything your parents tell you not to do cool you're so cool I like that's so a
00:20:54
cool guy it gets so much worse they dated from the beginning of their senior year in September until May and he was
00:21:01
apparently the one to break things off uh one day in the school parking lot and literally told the Boston Globe
00:21:07
I just got sick of her that's terrible but that's how I was in high school oh man everybody watch out for this cool
00:21:16
guy I'm like I have a feeling that's where you peaked oh put on your Shades the star shines too bright for all of us I
00:21:24
love that he said to the Boston Globe journalists like yeah I wasn't I was just a [ __ ] [ __ ] it was just a
00:21:31
dick of you I was sick of you yeah that's it like how old are you now dude okay my
00:21:37
guy that's stupid and I I really do think there but even though Pam Also may have seemed to Peak in high school and
00:21:44
she was popular in Windham she always missed Florida because remember she's a Miami girl so yes there is until she was
00:21:50
like 13. and she decided after graduating from Pinkerton high school that she wanted to head to Florida State
00:21:57
University in Gainesville okay now she enrolled there in 1985 and then she would start there but then later she
00:22:05
transferred to the Tallahassee campus okay and she was studying media performance
00:22:10
so she tried to keep in touch with her friends from high school but she was starting to find that she just didn't
00:22:15
have that much in common with them anymore which happens oh yeah so as those friendships drifted she actually
00:22:21
had no problem making new friends in Florida and actually even in back in New Hampshire when she would come back for
00:22:27
breaks oh wow she made new friends over her first break from school damn and it was through one of her New Hampshire
00:22:33
friends Terry Schnell that Pam would meet Greg smart they had met in passing before but it
00:22:40
was at a New Year's Eve party in 1985 that they would really hit it off Greg was also from New Hampshire he was
00:22:48
born September 4th 1965 in Londonberry New Hampshire I said Londonberry it's Londonderry you
00:23:01
know you know we're all here we're all here his parents were Bill and Judy smart Now Greg was like a super active
00:23:07
kid from a really early age he had two brothers Dean and Rick and the smart family loved to take vacations together
00:23:13
they were always in attendance at each boys Little League games and they're genuinely just a very close family unit
00:23:20
adorable family yeah they really were if you see pictures of all of them I'm like
00:23:24
oh my God I love you guys I love you guys love you guys now Judy smart described her son as a late bloomer and
00:23:30
she said while other kids around him competed for spots on teams and clubs Greg was pretty shy and seemed happy
00:23:36
just blending into a Crowd Oh he was somewhat reclusive too and even into his high school years just kind of blending
00:23:43
into the crowd was his thing oh yeah I just want to be there yeah and he did just well enough in school to get by
00:23:49
but after high school he decided to skip college and go right to work and he started working for a company called
00:23:56
Consolidated Utility Equipment services that sounds awesome he assembled the heavy equipment truck booms damn which
00:24:03
reminded me of your youngest because yep they love truck booms I sure do and construction equipment but around that
00:24:10
time he met Terry Schnell who would later introduce him yeah they actually got to be like super duper close friends
00:24:17
and people were speculating a ton at that point on their close closeness they were like are you sure you guys are just
00:24:24
friends Terry and him are Pam and him Tyrion okay but they really were just platonic friends they were like yeah
00:24:29
we're just we're just friends we're just friends we're just friends Terry said Greg was basically a stud he didn't want
00:24:35
a girlfriend he just wanted to have some fun he's just here for a good time he's
00:24:39
just here for a good time and like Pam Greg was a big fan of heavy metal which I don't really know if this is heavy
00:24:47
metal uh Motley Crew and Van Halen uh yeah I mean at the time for sure Motley Crue was like well it grew it was
00:24:58
like heavy metal yeah okay yeah all right cool some heavy metal there you go but so they both love that but more
00:25:04
importantly and as as far as Pam was concerned Greg sorry I don't mean to interrupt you I think it's like hair
00:25:09
metal I think that would be like hair metal oh my God okay yeah I said that later in the in the thing because that's
00:25:15
what um Dave said I think that's it's hair metal for sure sorry I didn't mean to interrupt because they have hair and
00:25:21
they like walk it around while they meddle and like I think Motley Crew and all them were like um like very pretty
00:25:26
yeah like you know and I think that's what qualifies them as like hair metal okay like heavy metal ah I see I see
00:25:34
yeah so yeah I'm actually glad you interrupted to talk about her because as far as Pam was
00:25:40
concerned Greg fit the image she had in her head of the perfect guy he loved to party he didn't seem all too concerned
00:25:47
with building a respectable career his long rocker hair quote reminded her of the rock star John Bon Jovi oh my God
00:25:58
I the the topical references here are really great aren't they wild so of the time also if you look up a picture of
00:26:05
Greg when he was younger he had beautiful hair oh I'm sure he reminds me more of um the adorable little kid in
00:26:11
stranger things with super curly hair oh my God Dustin yeah because he has curly
00:26:15
hair yeah no even though Greg was completely uninterested in monogamy at first he and Pam did hit it off and they
00:26:22
ended up going out with each other a few times over Pam's winter break that year
00:26:26
they'd go sledding they'd go to the movies they were just getting to know each other
00:26:30
Now Greg enjoyed Pam's company and the fact that she was always down to party but he still wasn't interested in having
00:26:37
a girlfriend and especially not one that lived thousands of miles away in Florida
00:26:41
yeah so because of that he was pretty relieved when Pam went back to school after break but Pam on the other hand
00:26:48
returned to school desperately in love with Greg oh damn like fell in love with him that winter
00:26:56
break Greg is adorable he is I just looked it up I mean Greg is a cutie patootie he's super cute I'm gonna warn
00:27:03
you now that they are there are issues in their relationship that stem from both sides okay that's good to know so
00:27:10
don't like I just get I'm not gonna root for anybody here I know it's all bad but
00:27:14
like I get why they were both like into each other totally in the beginning like
00:27:18
totally get that totally agree yeah hair hair so their relationship actually started slowly like we know and somewhat
00:27:25
uncomplicated they would talk on the phone after Pam went back to school and they'd write letters to each other
00:27:30
and by Valentine's Day Pam upped the ante by using her cheap father's connections I'm like you're gonna call
00:27:38
him cheap and then you're gonna use his connections she used his connections at Delta to travel to New Hampshire at no
00:27:44
cost oh he's so cheap I'm like it kind of sounds like you're a little cheaper yeah seriously no she would do that
00:27:50
plenty more times through the long distance phase and by spring break of 1986 though Greg still wasn't ready to
00:27:57
commit to Pam quite yet damn actually he was still going on dates with another girl oh Pam would later tell reporters
00:28:04
quote he basically said that he didn't want to break up with her and that he didn't want to break up with me he
00:28:08
wanted to go out with both of us so I said well it's either her or me and he said okay I'll see you later
00:28:15
wow oh damn was pissed because she went into the situation fully thinking like oh I always get what I want so this
00:28:23
ultimatum he's gonna be like oh my gosh how could I lose Pam yeah but he was like okay bye
00:28:29
and give me a choice she was not expecting Greg to give up so easily damn so she caved as soon as he rejected her
00:28:37
ultimatum and they kept on dating while he was dating this other girl just it sounded like they were like in
00:28:43
the talking phase like this is very messy it's super messy it's also very 80s yeah with the hair with the hair
00:28:52
so over time though Greg did decide that he wanted to be with Pam and Pam only he
00:28:56
was ready for monogamy at some point yeah and in the fall of 1986 they had become completely exclusive okay love it
00:29:03
they were still doing long distance but Pam was able to pull her Delta Airline strings when she needed to and Greg
00:29:10
would make the trips when he had the money and could get time off from work okay by 1987 though it was getting
00:29:15
harder and harder to maintain the distance so Greg decided he was going to move out to Tallahassee and be with Pam
00:29:22
damn crazy Pam was able to be her complete self in Tallahassee since she wasn't living under her parents roof
00:29:27
anymore she could love her medal as much as she wanted to and this is where I said or hair bands if we're being honest
00:29:34
if we are being honest and she could also pursue the career that she wanted to in the entertainment industry she
00:29:40
landed a position through her program at school to be a news intern for WCTV which at the time and possibly now is an
00:29:48
affiliate of CBS and possibly no I'm like I don't really know who's to say who's to say nothing
00:29:55
now she also started working as a promotions director for the College radio station which was actually a
00:30:01
position she made for herself they didn't have any open positions and she was like that's fine I'll make one yeah
00:30:07
I mean if you want it you might as well make up a position that fits I kind of love that I I will say I do love that
00:30:13
now eventually that role led to her getting a new position as a DJ on the heavy metal show metal Madness this is
00:30:21
really 80s I love it oh it's against so much more uh 80s because Pam referred to
00:30:26
herself as she was DJing as the maiden of metal oh hell yeah and she spent one night a week playing all her favorite
00:30:33
records from bands like Van Halen Van Halen you keep saying Van Halen Van Halen it's Halen I don't it's a spirit
00:30:42
because I know that I know how to say it I think it's just a weird accent that I
00:30:45
have um she also is going to be a living in moment oh but I know this one Helen Van
00:30:52
Halen hahaha the loved Aerosmith and um Queensrÿche Queen's reach Reich I think it is
00:31:00
Queen's Reich she likes that queen band but not a ray Queen I think it's rake Queen's rake I don't know if somebody
00:31:07
will tell us moving to Florida it seemed like Pam's life and the vision she'd crafted for
00:31:14
her future were finally coming into Focus once he arrived in Florida Greg moved into his own apartment or yeah he
00:31:22
didn't move in with Pam straight away and his mother said it appeared to be quote from a refurbished Motel complex
00:31:28
adorable yeah his parents bought him the essentials they got his furniture in some decor and Pam kept living in her
00:31:34
dorm according to his mother Judy Greg never really liked Florida though he just stayed because of Pam which wow is
00:31:41
really sweet love but he missed New England a lot and he was just trying to get acclimated by going out with Pam and
00:31:47
her friends and eventually he made his own friends now his family back home was absolutely
00:31:53
shocked that he had made a move to Florida because they knew him mostly as this like non-monogamous recluse back in
00:32:00
New Hampshire I love it we're like wait what like what's happening excuse me you
00:32:04
moved to Florida to be in a monogamous relationship that's crazy and they were even more shocked when he and Pam ended
00:32:11
up getting an apartment together just after a few months of him being there shacking up shacking up not completely
00:32:17
by themselves because they worked with one or they lived with one of Pam's co-workers the situation was ideal for
00:32:22
Pam but she couldn't tell her parents about Greg living with her they had expectations that she was out
00:32:29
there to study work hard and get a good job not be distracted by a boy no because and they liked Greg but they
00:32:36
definitely wouldn't approve of Pam living with him okay A friend of Pam's from college would later tell Author
00:32:42
Stephen sawicki quote every time her parents came down Greg would move all his stuff out and go live with another
00:32:47
kid until they God are you kidding me like what a hassle that's intense you guys should just tell them you should
00:32:53
definitely just tell them a lot it's a lot to have to move out of your place of living every time her parents come I'd
00:32:59
be pissed move into a new dwelling every time they visit hey can I live with you
00:33:03
for a minute for a minute for a minute now in January of 1988 Pam got home from work one day in a super shitty mood she
00:33:11
just had a [ __ ] day she later recalled I don't know what happened but I was totally aggravated I had had the worst
00:33:18
day and I was crying and complaining about something so Greg was consoling her and he was like you know what like I
00:33:23
think you should take a shower that always makes you feel better I agree if you're pissed off go take a shower
00:33:28
and at first she didn't want to but he was like just take a [ __ ] shower Pam like you'll feel better and she was like
00:33:33
okay fine and when she got out she reached for her powder puff and when she lifted it she saw that Greg had left her
00:33:40
a diamond ring that she had told him she liked while they had gone ring shopping
00:33:45
just casually a few weeks before that's cute she said she opened it up and yelled oh my God and went on to say I
00:33:53
started crying and he wasn't even saying will you marry me so I started saying get down on your knee and finally I said
00:34:00
yes I'll marry you even though he never really asked me oh no so I don't know if
00:34:05
that was a proposal or if he was just like leaving a present here's this diamond ring present but also you can't
00:34:11
do that don't get a girl a diamond ring that you're living with if it's not the ring ring yeah so now they were engaged
00:34:19
okay whether he knew that they were going to be or not they were sorry and since he'd gotten to Florida Greg
00:34:25
was having a hard time finding work and he was getting by landscaping and taking
00:34:28
on other small jobs here and there but the engagement really started to seem to get him thinking more seriously about
00:34:35
the future yeah and according to my guy Steven sawicki My Guy Greg started to understand that the nice home and boat
00:34:42
and other possessions his parents had acquired would not come easily at 3 35 an hour yeah so he started thinking
00:34:49
realistically about joining his dad and his dad worked in the insurance business
00:34:52
okay so while Pam worked hard to finish out her last year at Florida State Greg started studying for and actually
00:34:59
eventually passed the exam to sell insurance in Florida now the insurance industry was
00:35:04
definitely not what Greg had envisioned for himself but he had seen his dad make
00:35:09
up comfortable and stable life for his family and he wanted the same opportunity now Pam knew that the
00:35:15
changes that Greg was making were for a better future for the two of them but there were some changes that came as a
00:35:21
total surprise to her and that maybe she wasn't super happy about one day for instance after Greg passed the real
00:35:27
estate exam and he got an interview with MetLife which is actually the company that his dad worked for he surprised Pam
00:35:34
while she was out for coffee with her friends he had gotten a haircut to look more
00:35:39
professional because like he couldn't be selling real estate or we couldn't be sure to selling insurance with like
00:35:44
crazy hair like a metal head right so he showed up and sat down next to her and she didn't even know it was him oh my
00:35:51
God uh but it didn't really seem like this change was welcome uh for hair loving Pam yeah now bigger changes came
00:35:59
a few months later when he surprised Pam again but I think this is a good surprise because he surprised her with a
00:36:05
Shih Tzu puppy as a graduation present I love that they'd been going back and forth deciding on whether or not to get
00:36:11
a dog over the last couple of months but they ultimately decided against it because they thought it would take a
00:36:17
strain on their budget but Greg saved up the money from his landscaping job so that he could buy the dog and he figured
00:36:23
that his new job MetLife and whatever work Pam was going to be able to find now that she had graduated they would be
00:36:29
able to afford the dog and she'd be happy about it that's so sweet now she actually wanted a Yorkshire Terrier at
00:36:36
first like that's what she really wanted so I think maybe she made that comment so she wasn't super excited about the
00:36:42
idea of a Shih Tzu but then she saw the little baby dog and she was happy I was gonna say it's a baby dog it's that's
00:36:48
just the best that's just my baby dog I would take any baby dog so she was happy
00:36:52
when she saw okay so I'm like girl she would later say that her heart melted and she immediately declared that it was
00:36:58
the best present she had ever gotten of course it is it's a baby doll it's a baby dog and they named the baby dog
00:37:04
Helen Helen Halen Van Halen oh my God I can't say it I know how to say it I don't think she knows how to say it
00:37:13
everyone get out of here it's Van Halen yeah but I can't say it keeps saying Helen I know because it it looks like
00:37:20
Helen when you read it so they named the dog Halen yeah okay he was named after their favorite band cute and now they
00:37:27
had a wedding on the horizon so they had a puppy they had they were gonna have a
00:37:31
wedding Greg's got this new job things seem to be falling into place of course uh but there were also some red flags on
00:37:37
both sides you don't say Here I am to tell you back in New Hampshire Greg had uh been known like we said as a Carefree
00:37:45
loner and After High School though he developed a strong personality and now just like Pam he liked to be the one in
00:37:53
control of things but so did Pam oh so two strong personalities in the house was starting to lead to more arguments I
00:38:01
wonder what their signs are uh he's a Virgo oh um she was born in August 16th I think that would make her
00:38:10
a [ __ ] why can't I think of this is it Leo you're right right okay so a Leo and a
00:38:17
Virgo yay do you know does that does that check like those feel like two strong personalities right I know Virgos are
00:38:25
I've lived with one uh yeah I created one those are two very strong personalities and people that want to be
00:38:32
in control of things I don't think that makes sense you know what I'm saying hold on now I gotta find me I had to
00:38:37
bring it back to your uh to your area of expertise I'm happy you did although I guess it's not my
00:38:44
expertise area anymore no you got it I got it you got it thank God I believed in you and you got it oh my goodness
00:38:52
thank you so much so yeah Avery you can pick it up right here yeah so yes two strong personalities a Virgo and a Leo
00:39:01
maybe it works for you but I don't think it was bound to work and I'm gonna tell you about a shitty
00:39:07
story that happened one night while they were still in Florida Greg and Pam decided to go out to a bar with some
00:39:12
friends Now Greg and his friends sounded like they were being a couple of jerks fun
00:39:17
they were making gross comments about the waitress right in front of Pam oh [ __ ] him up yeah [ __ ] them up [ __ ] them
00:39:23
up So eventually Pam had enough of the stream of inappropriate comments and she started arguing with Craig about it
00:39:29
she's like what the [ __ ] is your problem yeah no the argument escalated to the
00:39:33
point where Greg spit a mouth full of beer and on Pam oh like in her face that's not okay and he had to be
00:39:39
forcibly removed from the bar oh that would be the end for me it would also be the end for me uh throughout all that
00:39:46
throughout that fight and all the ones to follow Pam and Greg for some reason or another stayed committed to each
00:39:52
other okay like they said this is what we want you do you now and since Pam had graduated at this point there wasn't any
00:39:59
reason to stay in Florida anymore so they decided that they were going to move back to New Hampshire Greg figured
00:40:04
he could work with his well-respected and well-connected Dad and Pam now had a degree so she could find a job out there
00:40:10
yeah now Pam definitely wasn't against moving back home to New Hampshire after graduation because the cost of living
00:40:18
was cheaper and the rural nature of the state made it very safe I would say especially in comparison to Florida but
00:40:26
at the same time she also always kind of considered herself a Florida girl she liked the warmer climate she liked the
00:40:33
things you can do out there and she liked New Hampshire but she struggled with the harsh New England winter she
00:40:39
was that wasn't for her yeah so it wasn't the easiest transition moving back Greg on the other hand he had
00:40:46
struggled like I was saying from the moment he arrived in Florida so he was super happy to be back in New England he
00:40:51
loved the colder climate he loved doing winter sports and he was happy to be back with his family because like I said
00:40:57
they were super close family yeah it was hard to say super connected to them while living so far away and he was
00:41:03
happy to be back he was feeling like himself again he was settling into a new routine it was great
00:41:09
he actually got back to New Hampshire a few weeks before Pam did she stayed back
00:41:14
in Florida to finish the last of her responsibilities at school but when she did make her way back to New Hampshire
00:41:20
like I was saying the decision was not an easy one to make she'd spent four years trying to find career options out
00:41:27
in Florida and trying out different roles in the entertainment industry but at the same time she knew very well that
00:41:34
the actual paying jobs in the industry were few and far between and they usually required a person to move around
00:41:40
a lot if they wanted to advance professionally yeah and New Hampshire though at the same time was not the
00:41:47
state that you would move to for a high profile career in television journalism no and that's what she wanted and moving
00:41:54
back meant that she'd have to sacrifice that for a life of stability her best friend at the time Sonia Simon
00:42:00
remembered that Pam was really torn about this she said I remember her saying am I making a mistake should I be
00:42:07
going and following my dream this is like everything she ever wanted and all of a sudden she was faced with choosing
00:42:12
Greg in New Hampshire over being an actual reporter okay you know yeah but she did end up
00:42:19
moving back to New Hampshire she made the choice all right now there was one place she could apply to help Advance
00:42:24
her career in professional journalism over in New Hampshire it was the Manchester ABC affiliate WMUR
00:42:32
she applied and they rejected her oh so that was kind of that's an outfit so since there weren't a lot of other
00:42:39
options she went to work at a temp agency and then she landed a job as the New Media Center Director with the
00:42:46
school administrative unit 21. the job was in Hampton which was about 40 minutes from where she was living and at
00:42:53
the time she had to move back with her parents so Greg was living at his parents and she was living at her
00:42:59
parents okay now the job was a straightforward admin position she'd have to maintain and distribute the
00:43:05
audio and video equipment to the six schools within her District but there was also the potential to move up the
00:43:11
ladder and become more involved and also video production was still new and exciting at this point and so the school
00:43:18
board really hoped that the New Media Center would engage parents and students and lead to some positive press for the
00:43:23
district and Pam was the kind of young energetic person they were looking for so everybody collectively was pretty
00:43:29
excited about this for Pam the job felt like an ideal alternative to chasing her dreams of
00:43:36
journalistic stardom like she wasn't going to be a stock kid but she could be storage Jason and there you go perfect
00:43:43
way of saying it and the pay was really good at that point in time she was going
00:43:47
to be making uh 22 500 a year now the salary and benefits were great for somebody just out of college and the
00:43:55
work made it so that she was still connected to Media so she was still doing what she liked to do and she also
00:44:00
got her own office in the basement of winnicunit high school where she was pretty much left to do as she pleased
00:44:07
without any Superior working in the office with her yeah and she even got her own secretary whoa so she probably
00:44:14
felt like a big shot [ __ ] now like I was saying earlier when they moved back for
00:44:19
the summer and fall of 88 Greg and Pam were living separately with their parents until they could find a place of
00:44:25
their own but they both had really good jobs so it didn't take long for them to find a place to move into in January of
00:44:31
89 they moved into a condo together on Misty morning drive oh in Derry New Hampshire morning drive isn't that just
00:44:40
pretty I love that Misty morning dress imagine just waking up in your house on Misty morning drive oh I love a misty
00:44:50
morning doesn't Misty morning drive sound like a soap opera no you're saying it yeah it does yeah it definitely does
00:44:56
I like it yeah and their new place was just a five minute walk from Greg's parents who also lived in a condo in the
00:45:03
same complex adorable now the wedding was getting closer so they were in full-blown prep mode their plan was to
00:45:10
get married in the Catholic church so at the time they were going through the counseling sessions that you have to go
00:45:15
through if you want to get married in the church yeah and while they were going through that period Pam actually
00:45:21
got a call from somebody at WCTV which was the Tallahassee affiliate where she interned okay and they wanted to know as
00:45:29
she's planning her wedding and going through all of this they said are you interested in an on-air position with
00:45:36
our station whoa like everything she had ever wanted damn it was the call that the old Pam was waiting for but this Pam
00:45:44
was determined to commit to her married life so she declined wow that's shocking
00:45:50
I know Deborah keaney who had been Pam and Greg's roommate back in Florida said of this time she always wanted to be a
00:45:56
broadcaster and she loved the spotlight but she turned it down in order to stay with Greg it was because she loved Greg
00:46:03
so much and that was the truth damn it's wild to think that had she accepted that
00:46:08
job I would never be sitting here telling you this story that's really wild to think about like it's so crazy
00:46:15
how one decision yep can alter an entire course of events that's wild had she said yes to that who knows what would
00:46:24
have happened I know but she did not the world would be a different place it would technically yeah I think so you
00:46:31
know a little bit of it yeah so the wedding finally came after over a year of planning and on May 7th 1989 and I
00:46:39
said this in your thing I wrote which is weird because as I'm writing this that is tomorrow because remember something
00:46:46
happened in your story that was on May 7th and I was like wait me too yep so that's when they got married oh that's
00:46:51
so weird and Pam and Greg had a traditional ceremony at Sacred Heart Church in Lowell Massachusetts oh damn
00:46:58
and the reception was held in nearby Pelham New Hampshire they had more than 250 guests which stresses me the [ __ ]
00:47:05
out because as I'm planning my wedding I'm like oh my God no wait how many two more than 250.
00:47:12
that's a big ass wedding damn like I have 150 and I'm stressed I don't know 250 people nor do I that's the thing but
00:47:20
I think it's one of those things where your parents starts to ask you to invite people I'm like lucky position in my
00:47:25
friends yeah I'm in a lucky position where nobody's asking us to do that and I'm happy about it it just cooled me
00:47:31
yeah cool with me um and their wedding song was Honestly by the Christian heavy metal band it's either striper um it's
00:47:38
probably striper because it's definitely not stripper are you sure um yeah they're a Christian heavy metal
00:47:43
band are you sure yes I listened and I'm not gonna lie it does pop off in the chorus it pops off it
00:47:51
pops off in the horse [ __ ] I I recommend it for sure damn lick listening to it
00:47:56
now once the wedding was over they decided to have their stay in Bermuda their honeymoon stay in Bermuda which I
00:48:03
also 10 out of 10 recommend um no stories from Bermuda that I could find but pretty much as soon as they got
00:48:10
back from their honeymoon the cracks were starting to show in Pam and Greg's marriage which had lasted at that point
00:48:16
um all about a month I was gonna say Judy smart remember that's Greg's mother we're called one afternoon this is gonna
00:48:22
piss you off because like I said they both have faults Judy was just like sitting at Pam and
00:48:28
Greg's Place one day after the wedding and Pam showed her a list that she had written down with the names of people
00:48:34
who had given them money for the wedding next to the amount that they'd given which is normal like you got to do thank
00:48:38
you cards yeah but Pam went through the list with Judy and pointed out every single member of Greg's family who had
00:48:46
given them a quote-unquote small amount of money as a gift oh my God can you imagine sitting with your mother-in-law
00:48:53
and being like John's uncle gave this much and this guy gave this much I mean my god wow my mother-in-law would smack
00:49:01
me and should smack me my mother-in-law would just laugh yeah my mother would walk away not smack me but I would tell
00:49:07
her my mother-in-law would punch me in the face like if I was somebody's mother-in-law
00:49:14
I'd be like you talking [ __ ] on my family I just feel like oh who do you think you are like I can't imagine
00:49:18
having that on desk you are who are you but it wasn't actually really the first time that Judy had seen Pam act this
00:49:25
entitled apparently right before their wedding Pam's parents called Greg's parents and said that they were
00:49:33
concerned that Greg wouldn't be able to quote give their daughter the things in life that she deserved
00:49:39
wow basically they were like he didn't go to college he likes to party and he only just got a good job so like what do
00:49:46
you think about this like is he good enough for our kid wow and Judy said of the whole thing we had to sell Greg to
00:49:54
the wall houses like he was a piece of merchandise my God I'd be pissed what is happening like I don't think you guys
00:50:00
were meant to get that I was just gonna say this is a very strange way to begin your lives together I can't imagine Ma
00:50:06
and papa calling Drew's parents and being like I don't know like do you think he's good enough but like you know
00:50:12
what you should always be closing and I'm not sold on this guy yet like what oh let's go what give me a PowerPoint
00:50:19
presentation on why I should invest in this guy you have to literally like think that thought walk to the phone
00:50:26
dial the number wait to connect like there's so many stops along the way where you could have stopped yourself
00:50:32
yeah what you doing what you doing do it over there guys I don't like it now at this point to a lot of their friends Pam
00:50:40
and Greg did not seem like they fit together anymore no no they were fighting constantly and it was starting
00:50:46
to seem to everybody to everyone else like they enjoyed pushing each other's buttons they also both really seemed to
00:50:53
like to get attention from other men and women which um didn't go too well when it came to Pam's jealous nature
00:51:00
especially when it came to came to things that she considered hers and only hers
00:51:05
and finally their goals and Ambitions weren't the same Greg since he had cut his hair he'd started on a more narrow
00:51:13
path in the industry and he seemed at this point to be embracing kind of like a simple easy-going lifestyle he was
00:51:19
happy to stay in the town that he grew up in he'd go to a party or two he was just living yeah like a very normal
00:51:26
Chill Lifestyle it's just living but Pam wanted more she wanted that big career she wanted to acquire she wanted to
00:51:34
climb her way up the social ladder they were they had very different paths in life
00:51:38
but then at the same time while it had its rough points their marriage wasn't quite as strained as you might think
00:51:44
looking from the outside Greg and Pam they still enjoyed spending time together I guess
00:51:51
um they were at the very least a good example of Opposites Attract some people said okay it seems like everybody had
00:51:57
very varying opinions on the two of them thank you because my next thing was going to be like okay all right like I'm
00:52:03
I'm hearing a lot of different outlooks on what they are or what they aren't yeah it's even like Pam growing up
00:52:10
though like in the beginning some thought she was [ __ ] awesome other people were like ah she was dipping in
00:52:16
the school she's conniving conniving like that nobody is in the middle I feel like that was kind of it seems like that
00:52:24
some people just like that like they like being in the Middle where like nobody can
00:52:30
pinpoint them yeah I mean like they know who they are but nobody else does yeah and it's they only think like one
00:52:35
extreme or the other yeah and they're like a chameleon who can just slide on either side and yeah it makes sense and
00:52:41
I kind of think that like their closest friends were like yeah I don't think you
00:52:44
guys are working anymore and then maybe the friends that they weren't super close with or the people looking from
00:52:49
the outside were like no I think they're a great couple I know it's good you know
00:52:53
like whatever yeah they said Pam was the one who tended to dominate and control and Greg took what his friends
00:52:59
considered a let's go no problem whatever approach to life all right if Greg wasn't irritated with Pam all the
00:53:06
time though his friends and family absolutely were today it seemed to find Pam overbearing
00:53:13
controlling and they could tell that she felt threatened by Greg's close relationships
00:53:19
which that's not good yeah that's always a red flag Greg had a lot of close friends and making friends was easy for
00:53:26
him but now in this part of her life Pam was struggling to make new friends which
00:53:31
was new for her because she used to happen at the same time but now she's not and when she did make friends they
00:53:38
were according to my guy Stephen sawicki often younger than she was less educated
00:53:43
intended to admire Pam and her forceful personality okay so I feel like a lot of
00:53:51
people know somebody like this that likes to be friends with younger people in the sense of so that they look up to
00:53:58
them and admire them 100 because they're actually insecure and can't be friends with people their own age because people
00:54:04
their own age will call them on their [ __ ] yeah like people their own age will
00:54:07
be like you're really immature exactly and like you're not you're not being rational you're not being like an actual
00:54:13
adult about anything but people younger than them are like wow you're so cool and carefree and you've got like you
00:54:19
know anxiety exactly exactly now so depending on who you ask Craig and Pam's marriage might have seemed like somewhat
00:54:28
stable in the first few months that they were married but that's also most likely
00:54:32
because they hadn't gone through that much as a couple yeah I mean they just got married they weren't struggling with
00:54:37
money they still had that excitement of being newlyweds they had that whole thing yeah and they also had a house
00:54:44
full of things that people had bought for their wedding and a bank account filled with money that they'd also been
00:54:49
gifted so they were like living they were good and Greg had done really well during his first first year of selling
00:54:54
insurance he actually did so well that he won Rookie of the Year award oh damn but because of the rough points that
00:55:02
I've already told you about it wasn't long before the magic started to wear off and old habits were starting to
00:55:09
return Greg or no excuse me Pam would push Greg's buttons to get his attention he
00:55:15
would spit beer in her face and send her out of the room pissed off it was like a
00:55:19
vicious cycle yeah and one night things got even worse it was about seven months
00:55:24
after the wedding and Greg went out to Boston for a night with his friends oh damn he wasn't supposed to be gone super
00:55:29
late it was just supposed to be like a night hanging out with your friends uh but he didn't come home until the next
00:55:34
morning uh-oh he and Pam obviously got into a huge fight when he finally did get home and they spent that entire full
00:55:42
day fighting and the next day Greg woke up to a note from Pam that said you can't find me I'm not at my mother's
00:55:49
I'll be somewhere else don't even try to find me oof yeah yikes now somehow they got over
00:55:56
that okay um after a few days but things only continue to slowly get worse Judy noticed his mom that they weren't
00:56:04
spending a lot of time together and Greg seemed to be spending more and more time
00:56:08
by himself with his friends anywhere he could away from Pam damn on the weekends
00:56:13
he'd go out with his friends and if he wasn't with his friends he'd just go for drives around town in his truck all
00:56:18
right he just didn't want to be with his new wife marriage you know and adding more fuel to the fire was that Greg
00:56:25
wanted to start having kids and Pam didn't want kids yeah I don't know if this is the place you want to bring kids
00:56:33
into my gosh numero uno no you guys don't want to bring kids into this because it's not gonna fix it no and
00:56:40
then also like that's a conversation you have to have before getting married like
00:56:45
like you can't wait until later and be like oh wait you don't want kids like that sucks if you want kids you need to
00:56:51
be with somebody that wants kids if you're planning to lock yourself to someone for life
00:56:56
you got to know what what's going on here where are your ideals what are your principles what are your beliefs how do
00:57:01
you want do you want kids how do you want to raise kids because certain things are deal breakers like for me I
00:57:06
would never be with somebody that didn't want kids and a lot of people that's a deal breaker yeah either way and vice
00:57:12
versa like if you don't want kids you don't want kids yeah and you're not going to be with someone who is dead set
00:57:17
on having kids which is why you got to talk about that beforehand so Greg wanted them Pam did not Greg also wanted
00:57:24
to put a down payment on a house Pam didn't want to move Pam and Greg were drifting apart and
00:57:30
they hadn't even been married for a year yet so while Pam's personal life was taking hit after hit after hit after hit
00:57:39
her professional life was actually going really well she was doing great at work
00:57:43
and she decided in the fall of 1989 that she wanted to get more involved with something called project self-esteem
00:57:52
it was the high school's drug and alcohol awareness program like essentially dare yeah of which we have
00:57:57
over here um and it was going to be mandatory for all incoming freshmen it was mostly run
00:58:02
by students but it needed to be overseen by an adult staff member and Pam volunteered to be that staff member okay
00:58:09
the school agreed and it was via project self-esteem that Pam would meet a boy named Billy Flynn and his group of
00:58:16
friends uh oh I know that name you sure do now I'm I'd probably say it later but
00:58:22
it's important to stress she's not a teacher she worked at the school as an administrator always it's always the
00:58:28
teacher everybody always says she's a teacher she wasn't yeah it doesn't make it anymore make it better but but it's
00:58:35
annoying that it's just certain that way because it's not like that's not the truth because there are plenty of
00:58:40
teachers who have done this kind of thing like you know we could cover like a million in five pieces like this
00:58:45
unfortunately this is slightly different slightly different just as bad but slightly different exactly so let's talk
00:58:52
about Billy Flynn let's talk about them let's do it Billy Flynn's family had moved to Seabrook New Hampshire from
00:58:58
California California man and they moved in 1987 when Billy was 12 years old so interestingly enough
00:59:06
uh he and Pam's story kind of starts the same which is weird when you think about
00:59:11
it now the move was tough for Billy because it was a huge culture shock Seabrook wasn't necessarily the nicest
00:59:18
area at the time when Pam started her job actually Seabrook had the highest unemployment
00:59:24
rate in the state of New Hampshire and it was mostly filled with like just shops like tattoo shops fireworks stores
00:59:31
there was a lot of porn stores I guess yeah along Route One and the surrounding towns were filled
00:59:37
with people from Mass and Beyond mass and those towns had kind of been transformed throughout the years while
00:59:43
Seabrook was sort of just Frozen in time yeah now usually the people living there
00:59:48
had strong a strong New Hampshire accent which I don't know what a New Hampshire
00:59:52
accent is I would I know it when I hear it but you couldn't do it I don't think I could I
00:59:59
could recreate it I don't know if I know it today it's slight yeah but you like you don't
01:00:05
know the characteristics at all I would I was gonna say I could try to look up like on the um an example of it but I
01:00:12
it's one of those things I just when I hear someone I'm like you're from New Hampshire oh okay I've never noticed it
01:00:17
I think I like don't notice those things sometimes you just have so many Souls uh
01:00:21
you know I probably have a New Hampshire Soul that's like that's not an accent that's my voice that's just me it's just
01:00:26
who I am yeah but apparently the people living in Seabrook of other people seem to have a strong New Hampshire accent
01:00:32
and they also use specific slang words that other people weren't using friend of the Pod and research assistant
01:00:38
of the Pod Dave is pretty familiar with that area and he actually let us in on some of the slang a quick lesson if
01:00:46
you're down from Dave stove you up means you're gonna fight someone oh damn I'm gonna stove you up what Ike bub
01:00:56
means all right or yes ikebub ikebub but according to Dave it's more of an exclamation
01:01:05
hell yeah let's do it um and then there's what Dave calls the classic Aya Aya which just means yes so like oh yeah
01:01:15
oh yeah oh yeah I'd love to do that are you going there oh yeah yeah I guess is what it is so that means yes all right
01:01:22
thank you for joining us class dismissed back to the case thank you Dave thank you Dave now unfortunately residents of
01:01:29
Seabrook and just the TC Brook Town in general were the butt of a lot of Jokes which makes me sad because I also came
01:01:36
from a town that was the butt of a lot of jokes yeah you know that's true the jokes were especially abundant in high
01:01:42
school and the seabra kids were usually called brookers Brooker brookers now Billy Flynn was known at the time as a
01:01:50
quintessential broker he loved heavy metal I liked that and he fell in with a crowd
01:01:59
from Seabrook that didn't really do much else but listen heavy metal and Vibe yeah their [ __ ] yeah man that's what
01:02:05
they did Rock um you know just one year after moving to New Hampshire from California this is [ __ ] terrible and
01:02:11
tragic oh his father was killed in a car accident oh he was 13 years old so now he had to lean even harder on these
01:02:19
brand new friends and his mother had to get a second job working as a maid so that she could support their family she
01:02:25
was now the Sole Provider of a family of four while grieving while grieving cool
01:02:30
so Billy could usually be found most afternoons just killing time with his friends Pete Randall and Vance uh Jr lat
01:02:38
time I believe is how you say it they would work on junk cars in JR's front yard okay now JR's house was kind of a
01:02:44
home base for Billy and his friends it was overcrowded especially when another friend Ralph Welch went to stay with
01:02:51
Jr's family after he was kicked out of his own house oh so it was overcrowded for them but it was also like home I was
01:02:59
gonna say yeah it's like a cozy overcrowd exactly now outside of the house that group of teens didn't really
01:03:05
have the best reputation in town they were known to shoplift they were known to break into cars and steal things like
01:03:11
Sticky Fingers Sticky Fingers McGee's they would steal like small [ __ ] around the car or they would steal radios which
01:03:17
is a dick move yeah that is a dick move let me tell you yeah didn't your radio get started yeah and Toby the probe yeah
01:03:24
and Debbie's Rady I don't know if her radio got stolen but I know her entire book of CDs got stolen and there was a
01:03:32
lot of like burned CDs like mixed CDs to this day we are sad about it if you're listening and you did that go [ __ ]
01:03:40
yourself [ __ ] you and I hope LimeWire gave your computer virus I hope you got a virus I hope the feds came to your
01:03:47
house like how dare you yeah that's [ __ ] up one of those thick books who steals a
01:03:53
book of CDs sticks like that's not you didn't even make that no [ __ ] it wasn't
01:03:57
your hard work that wasn't yours no but yeah they like to do that yeah steal things from the car like CD books
01:04:05
and sometimes if they were lucky enough to find a car that still had the keys in it
01:04:10
they would take that car for a joyride and then dump it across town from where they found it so you would wake up in
01:04:16
the morning and you'd say holy [ __ ] my car is gone but at school they were a little more well-behaved and their
01:04:24
grades were like all right but none of them were interested in extracurriculars until Billy Jr and their friend Cecilia
01:04:30
Pierce were asked to be among the students that would facilitate project self-esteem and for one reason or
01:04:37
another they all agreed it's very strange because I can't picture this group of friends being like yeah I'll
01:04:42
work with project self-esteem yeah that's a little strange to me but they did I think they were probably pressured
01:04:47
into it probably uh one day though what'd you say they were probably threatened absolutely no one day that
01:04:53
fall they all got together for their first meeting and it was there that the guidance counselor introduced them to
01:04:59
their staff supervisor Media Center Director Miss Pam smart Pamela so to the teens in the room Pam seemed pretty cool
01:05:07
she was young she was pretty she treated them like they were normal she never made them feel like a waste of time like
01:05:12
some of the other adults in their life did but Billy Billy liked her for a totally
01:05:17
different reason he thought she was smoking hot he was immediately feeling the the bed for her and he turned to his
01:05:27
friend Jr and whispered I'm in love wow damn like you've known her for once a lot she could have terrible views on
01:05:34
life it's true so Pam even though she was an adult and obviously uh in a position of power and
01:05:39
authority she was 22 years old she was a lot closer in age to the students than pretty much any other staff at the
01:05:46
school and she also wasn't one of their teachers like you usually hear she was she was an
01:05:52
administrator for the school district so to them she felt more like a cool older
01:05:56
friend versus what she really was yeah an authority figure but Billy right away did whatever he
01:06:03
could do to be in Pam's company to him her love of heavy metal and her experience as a College radio DJ made
01:06:10
her even cooler and less like any adult he knew and before long he was opening up to her about everything in his life
01:06:17
his dad's death how he didn't feel like he fit in and see Brooke at first but then he found this great group of
01:06:23
friends you know telling her things that he wasn't talking to anybody else about
01:06:28
he also was not serious at all about project self-esteem but what he was serious about was Pam as the weeks went
01:06:36
on and he was spending more and more time with her in the administrative building which remember was in the high
01:06:41
school they were getting closer and closer uh-oh and also I'm pretty sure the her office was in the basement so it
01:06:48
was away from a lot of important guys oh but anytime he had a free period anytime
01:06:53
he had lunch or a class he didn't feel like going to he went to Pam's office and it was easy because it was right
01:06:59
there yeah now Billy though he wasn't the only one wanting to spend more time with Pam Cecilia Pierce Billy's friend
01:07:07
and fellow project self-esteem volunteer was also fascinated by her now Cecilia was somewhat of like a Wallflower and
01:07:15
she had Big Dreams of becoming a journalist so Pam was the embodiment of what Cecilia wanted for herself she
01:07:21
seemed like she was attractive successful and she had this commanding presence that Cecilia wanted to have
01:07:27
aspired to have um her parents both worked full-time so they weren't home a lot essentially what I'm getting at here is
01:07:35
that like Cecilia didn't feel like she was noticed by a lot of people and Pam always seemed to be the one to make time
01:07:41
for her and then they also had a lot in common because she wanted to be a journalist and la da do you you know
01:07:47
yeah it makes sense so Pam eventually found out that Cecilia had an interest in media and journalism and she was like
01:07:53
oh would you like to intern like at the media center with me yeah and Cecilia jumped out the chance totally normal
01:08:00
yeah right then Cecilia's energy and internship began in November and for two periods a
01:08:09
day she joined Pam in the basement office where she helped with type setting the school board's newsletter
01:08:14
she cataloged the AV Equipment and basically did whatever else needed to be done now of course during her time as an
01:08:22
intern Cecilia and Pam got closer yeah because remember Pam is this young uh administrator and Cecilia's looking
01:08:30
up to her she thinks she's so cool yeah Cecilia said they only ever got into one
01:08:34
argument and that Pam's response to the fight was asking Cecilia to please not be mad at her
01:08:40
she remembered thinking here's this girl she's 22. she's my friend and she's actually apologizing to me or Cecilia
01:08:47
who was really used to being ignored and overlooked the attention that she was getting from Pam was intoxicating oh boy
01:08:54
intoxicated I was gonna say what a word I know right now to anybody looking and unfortunately nobody actually seemed to
01:09:00
be it was it would have been clear that Pam probably wasn't the best person for this position no the kids really didn't
01:09:09
necessarily respect her as an authority figure they just saw her as a peer and she was not really good at setting
01:09:15
professional boundaries what could have been a positive mentoring experience pretty quickly
01:09:21
spiraled into something wildly inappropriate Pam really really loved being the center of attention and like I
01:09:28
was saying earlier she liked to be friends with people that she had power and influence over there it is so this
01:09:34
new quote-unquote friendship that she had with Billy and Cecilia AKA their infatuation with her
01:09:41
started to make up for the distance that she was feeling was growing between her
01:09:46
and Greg yeah it's like this is exactly what she wants her little high school friends yeah who are like sophomores in
01:09:53
high school I don't like it at all are making up for the issue she's having with her husband and while Greg was kind
01:09:59
of like growing up and losing interest in the music that they used to love and avoiding partying Pam's new Teenage
01:10:06
friends were still interested in those things and that she was super cool for loving them just as much as they did
01:10:12
yeah man so she's leaning even more and more of course these kids now in December Cecilia saw a flyer on
01:10:20
Pam's desk for the Florida Department of citrus's annual High School video competition
01:10:26
the 80s okay like a video competition it was the 80s it's almost the 90s but she
01:10:35
mentioned to Pam that it sounded fun so Pam agreed and with Cecilia's help they recruited Billy Flynn and Cecilia's best
01:10:43
friend Karen Crowley to work on a submission they were like let's go win this Florida let's go now none of them
01:10:49
actually really thought the project was all that interesting um and their concept which was a rap
01:10:54
song describing orange juice in the life of a caveman wasn't really that original
01:10:59
or clever no but it meant that they got to spend more time with each other throughout the week and by January of
01:11:06
1990 the group was meeting several times a week at the school and eventually they
01:11:13
started meeting up on Saturdays too at Pam and Greg's condo oh no where they would take long breaks to go sledding or
01:11:21
eat dinner together I don't like this inappropriate yep so much singing you're welcome yeah now the video that they
01:11:28
made did not win it did not even get any kind of positive response from the Department of citrus nobody really gave
01:11:35
a shot about it no but the time that they spent making it led Pam and all the kids to get closer and she was becoming
01:11:42
especially close with Billy hmm Billy's mom like I said was Market working multiple jobs to support the family
01:11:49
and Billy was usually in charge of his brothers Jimmy and Larry while she was gone I guess in public he was considered
01:11:55
very quiet and polite he didn't talk much about his feelings or really anything at all he was quiet his mother
01:12:02
Elaine said of him outside of the family people saw a kid that was polite and Charming inside the family is where he
01:12:08
took out his anger at home he could be whatever he was feeling like and most of the time he was feeling like a prick oh
01:12:14
wow like that's his that's his mother she was like he was a dick damn she tried actually because she could see
01:12:20
that Billy was struggling I mean he had just lost his dad and now he's acting out so she's like okay he needs help
01:12:25
yeah so she tried to get help for him and she went to her friends and family for advice on how to handle him but she
01:12:32
said quote everybody's solution was beat the [ __ ] out of him and she really didn't have any interest in beating any
01:12:38
of her children my God so she just tried to keep the peace when she was home I'm
01:12:42
glad she didn't have interest in beating her children me too I was happy to hear
01:12:46
that my goodness but unfortunately like we were saying to provide that home she wasn't able to be there much yeah
01:12:52
because she's gonna work really was struggling emotionally and left mostly to his own devices and then now he's
01:13:00
really starting to struggle with feelings that he's having for Pam he knows they can't be together because
01:13:05
she's 22 and he's uh 15 at this point but it's confusing for him because she seems to be paying special interest to
01:13:14
him and she seems like she likes him too so he's like I don't really know what to
01:13:19
do about all this so instead of really like talking to him about anybody about it he just would go to Pam and keep
01:13:25
hanging out with her and like flirt with each other yeah now Pam as we know she was going through a lot of changes and a
01:13:33
lot of turmoil in her life her marriage was crumbling at that point she and Greg
01:13:37
barely had anything in common anymore and one night around Christmas 1989 Greg spent the night out drinking with
01:13:44
friends and he didn't come home there was another Boston night oh man didn't come home until the next morning at
01:13:51
first he was like I didn't come back because I was too drunk and I didn't want to drive so I slept at my friend's
01:13:56
house but she was like I know that's not the truth like what really happened and
01:14:00
eventually she got the truth out of him he had cheated on her oh no so the tension grew between them and over the
01:14:06
course of a few days things reached a breaking 0.19 when Pam showed up at Greg's parents house in the middle of
01:14:14
the night dressed in her pajamas and she says to them in the middle of the night
01:14:20
just in her pajamas that Greg had slapped her across the face bent her over a railing in their condo and
01:14:28
attempted to strangle her oh my God I know now obviously it was just Greg and Pam when this happened so none of us
01:14:37
have any idea if this happened or not very well could have very well could not have who knows it's unclear but when
01:14:44
Bill Smart confronted his son about it Greg Greg denied it and said I haven't even touched her she's a pain in the ass
01:14:50
I just told her to get the hell out of here and then Pam would later claim that the slap was accidental okay and none of
01:14:57
their friends had any recollection of it happening but whether it happened or not
01:15:00
that incident kind of seemed to be the trigger point for the end of the marriage
01:15:05
makes sense you know and it's one of those things where it's like there's three versions of the story yours mine
01:15:12
you're never gonna know what actually happened like do I think they probably got into a [ __ ] nasty argument yes
01:15:20
but I am nobody to say what happened past that yeah like the physical portion of it would it Shock Me No but I can't I
01:15:27
wasn't there exactly now as Pam's life and dairy was a rapidly disintegrating she opted to
01:15:34
spend more time in Hampton where she was getting idolized by Cecilia and worshiped by Billy Now by February they
01:15:41
were still meeting several times a week and Billy was still spending any free time he had hanging out with Pam either
01:15:47
in her office or at her condo and one day in early February Pam brought some undeveloped film to Billy he had
01:15:56
previously told her that his upstairs neighbor or one of his upstairs neighbors owned a one-hour Photoshop so
01:16:02
he could get her a discount on photo processing okay so later that day when the photos were ready to pick up Pam and
01:16:08
Billy drove together to get them and Pam immediately opened them up in the parking lot and just started like
01:16:14
lulling to herself about them she was opposing seductively in her bra and underwear
01:16:22
and she then handed those pictures to Billy to look at oh I hate that a lot please remember that she's 22 and this
01:16:29
boy is a [ __ ] sophomore in high school yep she knew exactly what she was doing also the photos are laughable and
01:16:36
you can Google them oh God it's just like what are you doing like it's you took those knowing that you were gonna
01:16:42
give them to a 15 year old come on and that's so yaka yaka it's very yucky the most yakayaka so the next day she
01:16:50
brought the photos to work with her and she told Billy she didn't think any of them were very good so he could take any
01:16:56
of them if he wanted to keep them like how do you even have that conversation I don't like I don't want
01:17:03
to know how how you ask I I retract so later that afternoon she called Cecilia into her office and she was like I
01:17:11
really have to talk to you about something but it's personal now clearly like from the outside of
01:17:17
this as adults we're like oh she's grooming them yeah she's slowly testing the waters while she plans to lead up to
01:17:27
something more shocking yeah crazy requests and then eventually straight up violations she knows her audience she
01:17:33
knows that they're looking for positive attention validation and that because they were in the position that they were
01:17:40
they weren't going to catch on to all the red flags that she was throwing there this is so sick it's [ __ ] so
01:17:46
once Cecilia went into Pam's office Pam was like oh my God girl sit down I gotta
01:17:49
talk to you and by now they had had so many chats about personal matters so this wasn't strange so it didn't feel
01:17:56
weird to Cecilia exactly because I'm she was groomed now Pam just blurted out to
01:18:01
Cecilia I think I'm in love with Bill oh my God now Cecilia just smiled uh probably very unsure about what the [ __ ]
01:18:09
she was supposed to make of what Pam just said to her yeah and I mean the idea was absolutely insane Pam was an
01:18:16
adult Billy was a teenager so at first Cecilia probably was like lol like what well and it's like she's making it seem
01:18:23
like she's confiding something in you so like you you are on that level you're my
01:18:28
good girl yeah like I'm confiding in you like this is like so Cecilia is like what and like so Pam had to convince her
01:18:35
that she was serious and once she was convinced Pam asked her if she could pass a message along to Billy she said
01:18:43
ask him to come by the media center after school so I can tell him myself oh my God so Billy did as he was asked
01:18:50
but when he showed up in Pam's office she was like really flustered and couldn't get what she wanted to say out
01:18:55
so he left because um he had to catch the school bus home because he's a child he doesn't even have a license no he's
01:19:04
taking the school bus home and his administrator was about to tell him that she's in love with him I hate this this
01:19:12
full-grown married individual is putting her two index fingers together like I think I have a crush on you Billy ew oh
01:19:19
yeah I hate it like get a grip so the next day Billy skipped his free study period and went to Pam's office again
01:19:25
and he was like what the [ __ ] is going on like why are you being so weird around me this is coming out of nowhere
01:19:30
yeah so she started being like awkward and seemed like she was embarrassed and she put her head down to avoid eye
01:19:37
contact with him and said do you ever think about me when I'm not around oh my God and Billy was like oh my gosh I know
01:19:44
exactly what you're talking about like yes I always do and I mean he was completely stunned of
01:19:50
course but he was also over the [ __ ] Moon of course he's a 15 year old she's 22. so he told her yeah I do think about
01:19:57
you all the time and then they like talked about their feelings for each other briefly before Billy had to go
01:20:03
back to his high school class oh my God I hate it he was like yeah Pam I really do think about you all the time but I
01:20:08
gotta get back to buy it I have to go to fifth period like Jesus [ __ ] Christ that's so gross so things were all
01:20:14
awkward in the days that followed but eventually that awkwardness just went all the way to the Wayside I don't know
01:20:20
a few weeks later Pam visited Billy at his home while his mother made dinner in the kitchen and Pam went up to his
01:20:29
bedroom closed the door behind her try your best not to picture this but Billy was laying on his bed Pam was leaned
01:20:36
against the door and Starry Eyes by Motley Crew was playing in the background I hate everything about this
01:20:41
don't picture it I'm not nope Pam asked Billy if he was going to kiss her you know with the romance starry eyes and he
01:20:49
was like oh my gosh totally but being the timid boy that she was he wasn't getting up to make a move so Pam
01:20:56
strodecost the room and kissed him while his mother was making spaghetti downstairs because he can't even cook
01:21:03
his own meals I hate it I'm losing it I just threw my computer I'm closing my eyes and just trying to like rub away
01:21:10
this is called disassociated like his mom is downstairs you [ __ ] crazy woman oh that's so awful and she isn't
01:21:18
thinking any of this because again this is not a teacher no and she's probably like I don't know what the [ __ ] going
01:21:24
on this is a violation of all kinds so a couple weeks after the kiss it's gonna get so much more
01:21:30
Greg went out of town on a ski trip and Pam asked Billy if he would like to spend the night with her at her condo in
01:21:37
Derry so for Billy who had been fantasizing about this very scenario since the moment he [ __ ] met Pam this entire
01:21:45
thing is feeling surreal and he's like hell to the yeah I hate it so he went and that night he basically just shared
01:21:53
an ordinary night with Pam like a like a like an ordinary couple would except he's 15. he's very upset they had dinner
01:22:00
together they watched nine and a half weeks and then they retired to the bedroom Pam
01:22:06
dressed up in lingerie and danced seductively for Billy oh my God reenacting a scene from the film and
01:22:13
Billy would later tell a jury she said she always wanted to dance for somebody like that but there was never anybody
01:22:20
she could do it for how about your full-grown husband that you married how about that like I
01:22:29
wrote an asterisk here and I wrote [ __ ] twisted so [ __ ] twisted that's exactly what it is [ __ ]
01:22:35
twisted oh so now she's got her hold on Billy secure and she is quickly quickly escalating things between them now she's
01:22:44
discussing her relationship with Greg with Billy and according to Billy Pam only married Greg quote because back
01:22:51
then it was the thing to do to marry the Greg and also back then it was like two
01:22:56
years ago you [ __ ] back then but she would always talk to Billy about the different ways that Greg was physically
01:23:03
and emotionally abusing her according to her because again we don't know yeah I mean it's abusive to spit beer in
01:23:09
somebody's face absolutely it is but she said there was also supposedly a time where he locked her out of the house in
01:23:15
the snow and she was only wearing her bra and underwear Jesus and I was like I would hope not because like his parents
01:23:20
lived uh five minutes away like that's awkward but we don't know if that's yeah we don't know but she was very very
01:23:27
clearly trying to appear like she was a damsel in distress a woman in need of saving and it was working because Billy
01:23:34
never liked Greg obviously because he's Pam's husband and a newfound rival but now he's hearing regular descriptions of
01:23:41
domestic violence at Greg's hands yeah so he hates Greg for what Pam claims he's doing to her of course so a few
01:23:48
weeks later during one of her rants about Greg's dismissive and sometimes abusive
01:23:52
Behavior Pam reminded Billy of a time when she asked whether or not he knew somebody that would kill for money
01:24:00
I don't know how that had come up previously you know that doesn't often come up in my conversations I will say I
01:24:07
don't think I've ever asked anybody yeah they um they just happened to know someone that was a hitman yeah that's
01:24:13
never really something that just casually comes up in my life not me either but not me not me could it be me
01:24:19
no way but apparently when she first asked she had made the question in a joke it was something about like needing
01:24:25
to get rid of her secretary so she could get the job for her friends like it was
01:24:29
silly yeah but now Pam seemed serious only this time obviously it wasn't her secretary that she wanted to have killed
01:24:37
it was her husband uh oh so after a few weeks of hearing how terrible Greg was Billy understood that Pam was angry and
01:24:45
frustrated but at the same time he also found it very hard to believe that she actually wanted her husband murdered
01:24:51
yeah it might be pretty tough to wrap your head around that yeah I would hope that would be strange to hear later on
01:24:56
he would say he did become convinced when Pam quote started crying and said the only way she could excuse me Pam
01:25:02
started crying and said the only way she could see for us to be together is if we
01:25:07
kill Greg the thing is and I know he's 15 so like this isn't like he's not gonna wow we
01:25:15
should understand that like when you're looking at it from an outside perspective you're like but there is no
01:25:20
way for you two to be in together because you're an adult and he is a child and that is not consensual or okay
01:25:27
in any way so whether your husband is dead or alive and you divorce him you still can't be together nope you're
01:25:36
still against all laws of goodness and law loss like like how are you gonna tell your mom that you're dating a 22
01:25:45
year old you can't do that I think she's gonna go for that so it's like guys no matter what I don't know why it's like
01:25:50
he has to be dead that's the only thing stopping us from being together no the law of the land is what's stopping you
01:25:57
from being together you idiots like are you kidding me well so Billy did understand that there were other options
01:26:03
he was like what about divorce yeah and she said divorce simply wasn't an option
01:26:08
Pam said quote because everything was in Greg's name or I believe it was um Billy
01:26:13
that said this excuse me because everything was in Greg's name and he'd take the car the dog the furniture and
01:26:17
the money and she'd have to move in with her mother okay well if you guys have love then that should be it right and
01:26:23
also like she'd have to move in with her mother she'd have to be an accessory to
01:26:28
murder like I think yeah I think one is better like even I have a shitty mom but
01:26:32
I'd move in with her over killing my husband and it's like he's not gonna take everything like you're gonna go
01:26:36
through like an equitable Equitable division of the assets exactly like get get [ __ ] girl get [ __ ] get [ __ ] Get
01:26:44
Wrecked Get Wrecked so knowing how attached and infatuated Billy was with her though Pam took one thing took
01:26:50
things one step further and she told Billy we won't be able to spend time together outside of school as long as
01:26:57
Greg's alive you can't spend time together anyway outside of school he is a child even if he's alive and you're
01:27:04
diver divorce you still can't hang out outside of school you can she's so manipulative horrible manipulative even
01:27:12
like in in prison I'm pretty sure she there's been like stories that have come out over the years where you're like oh
01:27:17
yeah people what yeah these kind of people don't stop from the moment though Pam brought up the potential of killing
01:27:23
Greg the subject became an almost constant topic of conversation first but just between Pam and Billy but then
01:27:31
eventually between Pam Billy and Cecilia uh-oh at first it was like an air of secrecy thing and it was like excitement
01:27:39
around the affair their relationship was like part teenage romance they would like pass notes and have sex in parking
01:27:47
lots and also dangerous yeah like there was that whole side of it but they loved
01:27:52
that like they fed off of that um but it was also illegal and at the very least Pam would get fired if
01:27:59
anybody found out but eventually her repeated appeals for Billy to kill Greg took on a way more serious and way more
01:28:07
urgent tone and it made it seem like she was ready and serious so after a few weeks of badgering Billy
01:28:13
finally caved and agreed to kill Greg smart he would later say I was afraid if I didn't do it she would leave me and
01:28:20
that would be it so once Billy agreed to kill Greg it was like there was literally no other
01:28:25
subject between them worth talking about just like she had with the orange juice
01:28:29
video and every other project in her life Pam took over she planned the murder like it was a
01:28:36
project she was working on for school she settled on the old classic they would make the murder look like Greg had
01:28:42
been killed in a accident robbery gone wrong close robbery gone wrong I mean also an
01:28:48
accident the accident you should have seen her face I got very excited I was like I nailed it accident I was like
01:28:56
almost yours makes more sense at that point though everything still seemed like it was fantasy or movie Pam was
01:29:02
like Billy here's what you're gonna do you're gonna dress in all black you're gonna park the car he doesn't have one
01:29:08
or a license to operate one no a few blocks from the condo then you're gonna walk to my house and you're gonna wait
01:29:14
for Greg to get home and every day the plan was refined more and more Billy should wear gloves to avoid leaving
01:29:20
fingerprints he should tie his hair back so nobody could identify him he should wreck the house to make it
01:29:27
seem like they've been robbed and so on and so forth now Pam meanwhile was going
01:29:31
to establish a strong Alibi by going to a school board meeting in Hampton at the
01:29:36
time of the killing genius genius brilliant oh my God Pam how'd you come up with it wow this is just the
01:29:46
Brain Trust at work excuse me I had to stop coughing how dare you but what the plans seem to lack was um any realistic
01:29:54
discussion of what it would be like to actually murder somebody or how Billy should even go about murdering him in
01:30:00
the first place yeah that'll just come you know why talk about that what why figure that out now even though the plan
01:30:06
was for Billy to murder Greg Pam wasted absolutely no time in making Cecilia an accomplice by keeping her updated on the
01:30:13
plan she knew every last step she was there for many of the discussions between Pam and Billy and her knowledge
01:30:20
would later make her an asset to potential investigators and potential prosecutors okay now when it came time
01:30:28
to do the actual killing Pam had everything planned down to the smallest detail she was going to leave the door
01:30:35
to the basement unlocked so that Billy could slip in undetected once inside he was to bring the couple's
01:30:41
dog Halen Halen [ __ ] into the basement so as Not to cause any commotion I always hate that part of
01:30:58
things you know when they'll like throw a dog in like a bathroom or something to
01:31:03
kill the owner and it's like what do you do and it's always a tiny dog because they can do that yeah like with a tiny
01:31:09
dog like a big dog's gonna [ __ ] your world up hell yeah but it's like these poor little tiny baby dogs are always
01:31:15
just like tossed in a bedroom or a closet or something and then they hear the person is being murdered out there
01:31:21
yeah like I always that part always gets me like it's like when somebody takes off somebody's glasses before they do
01:31:28
something or like rips their glasses off it's just like that's exactly it it just
01:31:32
like stresses me out it like adds to it yeah but so once Halen was in the basement
01:31:38
then Billy would return to the first floor and wait for Greg to come home at which point he was to shoot Greg in the
01:31:45
head and then trash the apartment to make it look like he'd been killed again when he walked in on a robbery yeah now
01:31:51
even as they planned meticulously Cecilia definitely never thought that these two were actually going to go
01:31:57
through with the plan she was just like wow this is [ __ ] wild that you guys are talking about this because everybody
01:32:02
stop assuming they're not going to go forward in the plan every [ __ ] story I've ever told every [ __ ] story it's
01:32:08
like I heard them plan it like meticulously but I didn't think they'd do it but I never thought they'd do it
01:32:13
and it's like yes I understand it sounds like you're like a more logical person Cecilia in that way where you're saying
01:32:20
well there's no way that these two idiots are gonna kill her husband like that's wild but like also if they're
01:32:28
talking about it like normal people don't talk about killing their husbands no they don't that's just that's not a
01:32:35
that's standard practice that's really not something that just gets thrown about out and then you all LOL about it
01:32:40
and you move on no if they're talking about it they in some way in some part of their soul they are planning to do
01:32:48
this it's true just little PSA to everybody you should go home and tell your mom yeah so tell someone anybody no
01:32:54
she would later tell investigators that Billy just wasn't a violent kid sure he was angry but enough that he would um
01:33:01
execute somebody in Cold Blood probably not no probably not so that was most likely why she continued to go along
01:33:07
with it even when they started brainstorming where Billy was gonna get a gun because they plotted that whole
01:33:13
part before they even had access to a gun now Cecilia actually did contribute to the plan and suggested that Billy
01:33:21
could use her father's gun but she hadn't seen her dad in several years so that wasn't really a viable option wow
01:33:28
yeah then she suggested a woman she worked with at papa Gino she said she knew this lady kept a handgun in the
01:33:34
glove compartment of her car and that actually seems like a pretty easy option because Billy loved stealing things from
01:33:40
Vehicles so he said whoa another one let's go yeah I love doing this so he hung around the parking lot of the
01:33:46
puppuccinos several nights in a row until he finally was able to break into the woman's car but when he did there
01:33:52
was no gun in the compartment ah so ultimately they would use a gun that they stole from Jr's father okay with
01:34:01
hollow point bullets Billy convinced a friend to buy for him now he said the reason for the hollow points was quote
01:34:09
because they would be the quickest and most painless oh this is like really chilling it's so
01:34:14
chilling now Pam and Billy had spent so long talking about killing Greg that the
01:34:19
whole thing thing kind of just seemed like a perverse game and for that reason it probably came as a shock to Billy
01:34:25
when one afternoon in late March Pam insisted that it couldn't wait any longer and it needed to be done that
01:34:32
night Jesus but the problem was that Billy still didn't have a gun did not have a car or a license to operate one
01:34:40
because he's a child Pam your lover is a virgin who can't drive okay that was a perfect insertion of that line thank you
01:34:49
appreciate that now when Billy pointed all these facts out all Pam had to offer was well hurry up and get them by
01:34:54
tonight okay what what what huh so Billy was like okay I'll try but he couldn't like
01:35:03
figure that out no and he wasn't he wasn't ready to murder somebody in Cold Blood he said it's not something I
01:35:08
wanted to do and I didn't think she'd be mad or anything if I didn't at least at first he didn't think that
01:35:14
but unfortunately Billy was very wrong Pam was in fact very angry that he didn't follow through with the murder of
01:35:23
her current husband when he called her later to tell her that he hadn't done it she exploded on
01:35:29
him and screamed at him through the phone you don't love me if you did you would do this for me it's the only way
01:35:35
we could be together and if you loved me then you would want us to be together wow
01:35:40
now this was the first time he had seen her pissed off because uh she's been grooming him so she's been building him
01:35:47
up though he came up and building him up and not showing any of her real and now
01:35:52
she's about to [ __ ] lose it on him now through tears he Pro he started crying and was like okay next time I'm
01:35:59
gonna go through with it but she persisted and screamed at him I know you're never gonna do this you don't
01:36:05
have any intention of doing this and I can't go on seeing you like this if we're not gonna be together and then she
01:36:10
slammed the phone on the receiver and hung up on him that's so [ __ ] up it's so manipulative so [ __ ] up this is a
01:36:17
child this is a 15 year old and she knows that like yeah a 15 year old should know better than to murder
01:36:25
someone that is absolutely 100 true but on the other side of this a [ __ ] adult should know that a 15 year old in
01:36:34
a 15 year old boy who is clearly like in puppy love with you is highly impressionable and she does she did
01:36:42
exactly and that's the thing it's like there's wrongs here on each level but her bet this imbalance of power here so
01:36:49
beyond [ __ ] absolutely and remember everybody it never would have happened if it weren't for Pam smart art yeah
01:36:56
Billy never would have murdered he wouldn't have just randomly murdered this guy like if it were not for Pam he
01:37:01
wasn't showing any kind of like sure he was like a little thief yeah he was like
01:37:04
like he was a shitty kid like for sure but it's like and his mom was like he was kind of he didn't really show like
01:37:10
true like who knows none of us really know but it's like likely wouldn't have no no no so the next day Cecilia pulled
01:37:19
bully aside and she said Pam wants to see you now in her office in the media center Pam apologized for yelling at
01:37:25
Billy on the phone and said don't worry there's another school board meeting scheduled for next month so you'll have
01:37:31
another chance to kill Greg and Billy said later yeah right Billy said later that's when I started getting serious
01:37:37
about it I thought that if I do something like I thought that if I do something like not go through with it
01:37:43
she's gonna leave me and that's gonna be it this is the time I really started talking to Jr and Pete about it those
01:37:49
were his two friends and that is where we're going to wrap up for part one I knew it but next week
01:37:56
we're going to get into the final plan the night of the murder and the subsequent Trials of those involved but
01:38:03
something to think about more people are involved than you might think oh later on okay this this plan gets finalized
01:38:11
with a lot more players than you're probably thinking this is this moment this is just so messy it's a bunch of
01:38:18
[ __ ] mothers it's so messy from the beginning of this marriage until the end I'm sure it's all messy it's absolutely
01:38:28
agreeable these are two people that definitely should not have gotten married no these are uh two people that
01:38:36
never should have met like Billy and Pam yeah and this is a relationship that never should have occurred exactly
01:38:41
multiple relationships that never should have occurred between Billy and Pam Cecilia and Pam and yeah inappropriate
01:38:48
relationships for sure so with that being said we hope you keep listening oh and we hope you keep it weird but never
01:38:55
this [ __ ] weird or else literally never this weird don't be a listener of the show and keep it that [ __ ] weird
01:39:01
don't you know how weird to take it okay and this is not it it's not it foreign [Music]