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hey Prime members you can listen to morbid early and add free on Amazon music download the app today what if you
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were trafficked into the inner circle of a cult and signed a billion year contract at 13. what would you do this
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is actually happening is a weekly podcast from laundry that features extraordinary true stories of
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life-changing events told by the people who lived them follow this is actually happening on Amazon music or wherever
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you get your podcasts hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid it is
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thank you [Music] [Music] did you hear my whistle with my S that just happened no I didn't I literally it
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was like very slight but but that did just get a little yeah that felt embarrassing for some
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reason it wasn't it wasn't worry about it I didn't even hear it okay I didn't even hear it okay I didn't guys we're at
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our home away from home we are we're not gonna say where that is but no we're not
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but but we are finally getting some time with our fam exactly we're spending time
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with family yeah we're just chilling out you know relax and all cool chilling out
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relaxing chilling out Max and relaxing all cool there we go shooting some people outside of the school when a
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couple of guys you know we're gonna get together that's what we're doing um yeah and we had our live show our
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virtual live show last night yeah thank you guys so much to everybody who like logged on and watched so like logged on
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what the [ __ ] is that what a [ __ ] Century what a cool [ __ ] location that was that was the coolest location I
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want to film literally every live show from there I want to live there you should I belong there we got to get
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ready in this like old tiny bedroom where like all the furniture is like exactly as it was and like I think it
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was that place was built in like 1910 yeah it was it was so cool yeah it was awesome and you guys Rule and we're glad
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that you were there in spirit yeah it was awesome them I also want to dress like I did every single day of my life I
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also told Ash when we left I was like you should just come to work like that every day like you were literally made
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for that I was you were I really was I believe that I feel that very strongly not super comfortable no tool yeah I
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mean it didn't look super comfortable but it was great the I was wearing two robes technically not technically I was
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technically technically um I had like a silky one underneath that one was like super comfy but yeah
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but the tool was like a lot the tool of it all so always scratchy and I have very sensitive skin so I was itchy that
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was the Itchy and then we both got Crooks in our neck yeah because the cricks or Crooks Creeks because I don't
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have like Crooks in my neck no I don't have like criminals in my next one I don't have thieves in my next neighbor
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but I have cricks yeah because we both were looking at each other for so long when we were telling the stories and it
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was so cold in there that I think like it [ __ ] with my neck like a lot me too wicked bad I was sleeping last night and
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I was pissed off because no matter which way I moved I couldn't get my crick out
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my neck me too it still hurts tonight luckily mine really doesn't mine still hurts I feel like I'm whispering a
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little bit because it's really late right now it is really late we're just like sequestered in the corner somewhere
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that we set up like a makeshift so Bleak it is we got sequestered into a corner somewhere set up like a temporary you
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know recording studio we're in a little cubicle yeah we're in a little cubicle and it feels right I love it
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um Well I this is like pretty long for for me for me for me um so we should get into it I didn't
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kind of just really not kind of I wanted to sleep I just remember no but seriously I did want to put a little bit
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of a trigger warning at the top of this episode because this case has very very heavy themes and a lot of mention of
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suicide so if that's not something that you're in the headspace to listen to right now we completely understand and
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respect that um you can sit this one out and we'll see you next episode which will be
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listener Tales I think which is always a [ __ ] good time yeah yeah it will be so this is a Wednesday episode yeah so
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so know that that it'll be it'll be okay and for those staying today we are covering the murder of Betty Williams I
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loved that murder it is a murder like it is but it's complicated all right okay and also it's like a bit of an old-timey
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case because it did happen during the 60s but it's one of those older cases that weirdly feels like it could have
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happened yesterday like yes it's got those vibes and the reaction from the public in this case though uh that's
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definitely dated that's very old-timey yeah that's very old-timey because along with again the heavy themes of suicide
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there was also heavy themes of uh [ __ ] shaming and victim blaming cool all at the expense of Betty Williams
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sounds fun yeah we love it so it all starts when Betty's boyfriend Mac Herring breaks up with her and he broke
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up with her during their senior year of high school that's shitty really really sad her entire world obviously felt like
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it was collapsing in on her and she had already been struggling with depression and anxiety for a good while at this
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point and at the center of all of her problems was the fact that she was really living
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in a time that in a lot of ways just was not meant for her oh that's sad I feel like Betty was very ahead of her time in
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a way and I don't really know how to explain that but I do feel like you'll also get that sense listening the vibe
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is just there yeah yeah it definitely she was Progressive she was outspoken and she was really in tune with her
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sexuality but she had all of those qualities as a teenager living in the 60s yeah so like you were not as a woman
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or a girl supposed to be sexual at all outspoken at all or Progressive in any way shape or form because we're coming
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off the heels of the 50s yes honey so no one around her really knew what the hell
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to make of her and they really only paid any attention to her when they were talking [ __ ] about her or making her
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feel like an outcast wow yeah so things got to the point where Betty felt like death was the only way to free herself
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from kind of a losing battle that she felt like she'd been fighting oh that kills me it's this is a very very sad
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case very sadly it put me in a weird headspace for a few days oh great yeah just so you know but it's also like it's
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such an interesting story and it's like I think it's so important to be told yeah so she was by all means determined
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to put an end to her life like very determined to do that but she was afraid to do it alone she didn't want to leave
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this realm and enter the next by herself oh my God she described it quo as not having the fortitude necessary to go
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through with it so instead of facing the end of her life alone she begged for one
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last thing from the guy who had just broken her heart she wanted him to pull the trigger for her wow yeah
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the shooting of Betty Williams by Matt Herring which is sometimes referred to as the kiss and kill murder it's really
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been largely forgotten by a lot of people who live outside of the West Texas city of Odessa where the killing
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took place but the case really does remain among one of the most complicated cases of the 20th century and still a
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lot of people have questions and the most discussed question is when is a death a killing and a killing a murder
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huh okay it's convoluted this one I told it's gonna be a lot and that's the thing
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I'm like this was a murder but like I don't know how to really say label this yeah how to label it exactly
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but let's start at the beginning Elizabeth Jean Betty Williams she was born on August 11 1943 in Marion
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Illinois to John and Mary Williams her early life was pretty good her dad was a carpenter and when there wasn't
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any Contracting work for him to do he was also able to get work in the coal industry now the coal industry went from
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being a constant for John to fall back on to completely unreliable work very quickly
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then he injured his back in 1954 and neither job was something that he could physically do anymore oh man yeah so
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while he was talking to his brother about what he could do to support his family the brother suggested that he
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move out to Texas which had a booming oil industry at the time so surely John could find some kind of
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job in the oil industry and get his family back up on their feet in no time surely or maybe not
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in Illinois this family they were a family of five and they lived in a really large house that John had
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actually built himself they had all the space that they could ever need but in Odessa the house that they had moved
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into which was on Henderson Street it was definitely more modest it was only about 10 to 20 years old at that point
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but it felt quote old and well worn to the family oh wow they were also constantly having to pick up trash from
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the front lawn because the house was across from a factory and the trash at the factory was just constantly blowing
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into their yard or getting stuck on their fence ew so like you're already down on your luck yeah you've already
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crammed a family of five into a much smaller house than you were used to and now you're picking up trash from your
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front lawn and fence every day because trash is literally just wafting over to your house like you're that's rough
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you're not feeling great about that yeah and just to put the cherry on top of things the job that John was hoping for
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never really materialized no he could still keep the family afloat on the money that he had made as a carpenter
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and like he kept picking up side jobs and everything but Mary ended up having to get a job at JCPenney to help even
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more sadly the move was just not everything they had hoped it would be so according
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to Betty's cousin Shelton Williams which I think is the cutest [ __ ] name on the planet
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her Father John's employment's problem employment problems might have had something to do with his attitude he
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came off to many as a self-righteous man and he came off very arrogant oh Shelton
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actually later wrote a book about this case it's his cousin's murder it's called washed in Blood and he wrote
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about John saying that he quote seemed to always either to be preaching in a holier than thou way or he seemed to be
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bragging wow those are not great things to hear about yourself no definitely not
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and then the other thing on top of that was that things were just never John's fault we all know people like that never
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ever also I am really smearing and tarnishing my name John lately you are dragging the name John through the month
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I think I've had three cases in a row one of them was the live show where the Johns have been bad yeah where you've
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just been like and John came and I was like I love it John and you were like not this one and it's like damn right
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yeah sorry wow well this John sucks and things were never his fault and most of the time that he spent out of work he
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actually ended up blaming on his children cool yeah you should do that like it's their fault really he was a
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very religious man he was uh described as a strict Baptist and he wanted to make sure that his children followed the
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same faith and he told them whenever the family was going through some kind of hardship or he was out of work that it
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was their fault and that they had done something quote to bring God's punishment down on our household
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wow what an [ __ ] like maybe it's your fault because like I didn't ask to be here Dad yeah you're a straight up
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[ __ ] like you brought me into this yeah you blame your kids for your [ __ ] like you're an [ __ ] and then
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you just say like it's their fault and God's mad at them like go [ __ ] yourself
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shut the [ __ ] up John exactly so as Betty got older and she became a teenager she became the main focus of
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her father's outburst and just pure disdain pure disdain oh I hate this man me too he quote often preached to Betty
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about Sin and eternal damnation and on more than one Sunday morning he prayed that she might learn to be a more
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obedient daughter ew like in front of her ew yeah oh God I hate this man me too now somebody else especially again in
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that time period would have tried everything they could have to make their father happy or avoid his anger but
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Betty let it feed her by the time she turned 14 or 15 she realized that her dad God's belief system all of his rules
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and morals were going to be everything she stood against that's amazing which I think is [ __ ] awesome for her so when
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she was entering high school she was immersing herself in everything she could to expand her world she was
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reading books by John Kerouac an author who many people probably know but if you
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didn't he basically led a movement in the 50s that was later called The Beat Generation I was gonna say the beat
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poets yes exactly now the people that made up this generation were people like Betty who rejected conventional Society
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this is a quote and favored Zen Buddhism modern Jazz and free sexuality baby I love it now Betty loved all of the beat
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poets and she also loved the comedian Lenny Bruce whose comedy style was mostly satirical it featured jokes about
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politics religion sex things that she had no business listening to back then no and she also wore what was in
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considered as too much makeup and she did basically everything she could to reject conforming to the world around
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her I love that for her I do too if you look up a picture of her I think she's the
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cutest oh she's adorable right but she didn't dress like you were supposed to back then we'll get into it to some
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people she probably sounds like a typical teenager just kind of going against the grain to establish her
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independence and I definitely agree that there is a piece of teenage innocence and like resistance here yeah she did
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have something to prove but at the same time like I've already said she was really just more Progressive than most
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people around her according to Pamela Koloff quote Betty disdained Conformity and reserved
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particular contempt for the girls with matching sweater sets and saddle shoes who seem to look right through her oh my
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God I love Betty I do too she wanted to be unique and she expressed that through
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her appearance sometimes she would dress in all black sometimes she would just wear jeans and a t-shirt which was like
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[ __ ] wild yeah back then and other times she would wear a very revealing clothing which like she probably like
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showed her shoulder or something I was gonna say her ankle yeah but more than just dressing differently and reading
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those kinds of books she also spoke freely about her ideas and opinions oh I mean
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clutch the person what does she think she is you know and that definitely had more than a few people clutching their
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pearls back absolutely she would talk to her teachers and other adults around her
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and try to get them to see where she was coming from when it came to topics that
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they simply were not talking about back then she wanted a lively debate but she did she wanted to talk about racial
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segregation she wanted to talk about sexism she wanted to talk about equality like she wanted to get your [ __ ] mind
00:15:59
now hell yeah she did [Music] a few days before Christmas Janelle Matthews disappeared from her home
00:16:15
there were no signs of a struggle no eyewitnesses no DNA recovered but what if the answer had always been
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00:17:10
now her cousin Shelton Williams remembers the urgency and passion with which she would talk about any kind of
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social issue she loved getting engaged in like a heated debate and she would tell her cousin there are too many
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secrets in the country you can't just tell people that racism war and poverty are wrong you have to make them feel it
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where is Betty now serious like we need Betty and that's the sad thing because I
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think she I mean she did leave a mark on the world obviously but I think had she
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been able to live into like adulthood it sounds like she would have done she would have moved the needle and it's so
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sad because she just didn't have people around her that made her feel heard made
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her feel respected made her feel like she was worth being alive like and that's awful it's so sad now to Betty
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the most effective ways of making people understand her quote unquote Progressive
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ideas was to address the issues through drama comedy and art just like her Idols
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the beat poets Cadillac Lenny Bruce but unfortunately where she lived in Odessa Progressive politics and edgy
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artistic influences only made her more of a social outcast wow so outside of school and outside of her part-time job
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at the local Woolworths she dreamed of a glamorous life which you know like that's like a center theme in all of us
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she wanted to get far away from Odessa she loved films and she absolutely devoured the Hollywood tabloid magazines
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I want her I I know how this is going to end very tragically I know yeah it does
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but I just I'm like I want you to get out I do too like I know it's gonna end badly but I just want to be like rewind
00:18:50
she was just so young and promising yeah so promising and I just love that like she would like read the beat poets and
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she would engage in all these like topics that she that she wanted to spread the word about and like really
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get into but then at the same time she's your typical teenager like flicking through a People magazine yeah you know
00:19:09
but obviously not people back then but you know she would also hang all kinds of photos on her bedroom wall from
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magazines like confidential and next to those she would hang movie posters and playbills like she was just [ __ ] cool
00:19:21
yeah and like the stars and the tabloids she really dreamed of becoming a famous
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actress one day and in the meantime she joined the drama club at school so she could like kind of get that going and
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her cousin remembered quote she loved to be on the stage where she could be anyone but herself
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so in many ways that's why I used to love drama yeah because I had like not a great experience in school yeah that's
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exactly why I love drama club because you could be a character you can be whoever you want to be and it's
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literally just like disassociated yeah that hurts my heart I get that I love you I love you oh no like seriously that
00:19:56
really hurt my heart but again in many ways she was a typical teenager she lived in emotional extremes
00:20:02
she felt like nobody understood her and she longed for something greater than what she saw around yeah I can I could
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have related yeah we were all we were all there yeah but she was also an outsider in her community and everybody
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from her own [ __ ] dad to her classmates and even some of her teachers reminded of her reminded her of that on
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the regular that's so [ __ ] up that no one around her valued her and then on top of everything else if
00:20:30
anything about Betty made her a not so great fit for where she lived or just about anywhere else in the late uh 1950s
00:20:36
it was her unashamed interest in sex ah yeah it you know didn't it rocked some socks didn't make her a lot of friends
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no according to her cousin she was so bright and natural disgusting sex it almost seemed to be okay to do so which
00:20:55
it almost seemed like it was all right and healthy weird it almost seemed like we could communicate with two groom
00:21:00
people honestly so some nights after her siblings and her parents went to bed she
00:21:05
would sneak out of the house and she would go down to Tommy's Drive-In to flirt and talk with boys get out of town
00:21:12
and unlike the chaste good girls in Odessa she was assertive when it came to her interest and her desire to have sex
00:21:19
yeah and by the time she was a junior in high school she was meeting up with guys
00:21:23
regularly she would meet them at the drive-in or she would just hook up casually with them I don't even get it
00:21:28
whatever it was this though this really set her outside way more than her outfits her attitude her Progressive
00:21:36
ideals this made her an outcast awesome we learned nothing from The Scarlet Letter literally nothing her former
00:21:44
classmate Gene Smith uh kieker put it if a girl had a steady boyfriend then she could have sex as long as she didn't
00:21:51
advertise it but if she did it with someone who wasn't her boyfriend then she was a pariah
00:21:57
oh Betty was a pariah so wild because that's all based in like religious ideals of course it is and it's like not
00:22:06
everyone's religious oh my God why does that it's so weird that that tracks against like such a large demographic of
00:22:13
people like it's so strange to me to me that's like a a very weird way of thinking it is I mean I agree with that
00:22:20
you should judge someone about that when it has literally no effect on you well think about people that hate on like the
00:22:27
lgbtq community that's exactly what I was just it's like it's literally just you giving a [ __ ] about who I have
00:22:34
intercourse with literally all it is like it's like why why does that matter to you look it's and you'll sit there
00:22:41
and you'll bang your head against the wall about it and ask it's the question I ask constantly I'm like why does it
00:22:47
matter to you it doesn't affect you right like why like if I'm cool with like going to hell then why do you care
00:22:54
exactly like Let Me Burn [ __ ] what's the problem problems are you worried I'm gonna run
00:23:01
into you down there because like if you're so sure you're going up there then why the [ __ ] do you care that I'm
00:23:07
going down here it's so true like it's so weird to me I could go on for like hours about it no it just it infuriates
00:23:14
me because honestly I don't give a [ __ ] what anybody does no I don't give a [ __ ]
00:23:18
as long as it's legal yeah like legal in the sense that like as long as it's like
00:23:22
you're not hurting adults right and as long as it's like that's it as long as it's a consenting adult that's literally
00:23:28
all I care no it's so true I was like lucky like to to come from this family and like Drew was so lucky to come from
00:23:34
his family but we've made friends over the years like in the lgbtq community and you're like what like you hear the
00:23:41
experience and even people that you're not friends with that you know what their experience was coming out to their
00:23:46
family and you get disowned you get thrown on the [ __ ] streets and it all comes down to who you're bumping ugly
00:23:52
that's if it's like you're disowning your child because of who they care about yeah yeah
00:23:58
what like wild what planet and also this psycho the psychological [ __ ] aptitude
00:24:06
of that he's a dude off the Richter Scale because it's like you shouldn't give a [ __ ] as long as the person your
00:24:14
child cares about is a good person it's kind respects them and treats them correctly and makes them happy literally
00:24:20
that's all you care beyond that then there is some deep-seated issues happening say it louder for the people
00:24:28
in the background that's crazy it makes me crazy it's like the the whole like you know if you go near my you know my
00:24:36
son is not allowed to date any like hoes out there you know like you see all those I get those those tick tocks and
00:24:41
you're like you can't [ __ ] your son you know that right like that is against the
00:24:46
law but then you see on the other side with the guys being like I'll have a shotgun if some guy comes to why you
00:24:54
can't [ __ ] your daughter like it's just what are you doing like why did you have you have to
00:24:59
do this it's so weird it's very very bizarre I hope my children I hope my daughters come home with wonderful
00:25:08
humans yeah whoever they are and also I want to get to know that person I want to love that person to me I'm like cool
00:25:16
I can't wait to have like more humans that I love in my family I'm like I'm excited that's just more kids my future
00:25:24
mother-in-law the other day I literally almost cried because I know she considers like me and my like sister and
00:25:31
brother-in-law like her kids she literally says that she has six kids I love that and like I like I feel like
00:25:37
she's setting an example for me as like how I want to be like when my kids get married exactly like I can't imagine
00:25:43
having a different experience no like my mother-in-law has been giving me like every card that she gives me always says
00:25:51
to my son and quote unquote daughter like oh because it's like my daughter-in-law card but it's like she
00:25:57
always finds the one that say quote unquote daughter and then she writes in it thank you for making my son so happy
00:26:03
like that's um that's that's your mom you want to bring that's not a mother-in-law that's a mom yeah
00:26:09
literally it's just I know that was like an off tangent like you know whatever but like that kind of stuff [ __ ] the
00:26:15
[ __ ] out of him no it's just weird but again live your life because it doesn't
00:26:19
affect me but Live and Let Live exactly but that's not what happened to Betty nobody was letting her live at all that
00:26:26
makes me sad me too Justice for Buddy honestly for all her non-conformity and dreams of getting out of Odessa what she
00:26:33
really wanted the most the absolute most was to be loved and accepted the bear [ __ ] minimum yeah that's what
00:26:42
everybody should be able to have like at home starting out there starting at home
00:26:47
but she didn't even get that but finally in her junior year she felt like she had
00:26:52
finally found that acceptance and that love that she craved in a sophomore named John Mack Herring he went by Mac
00:27:00
Aron was a year younger than Betty but he was everything that she was not he was tall he was handsome he was well
00:27:07
liked he was popular and he had absolutely no trouble fitting in with his family and Pierce and this is
00:27:14
another John oh my God [ __ ] I didn't even think of that [ __ ] I don't know how to feel about
00:27:21
this John to be honest with you all right we'll leave it hanging in The Ether I'm not really sure how I feel
00:27:25
it's it's just it's Gonna Leave You feeling so conflicted but anyway he by all accounts was a very
00:27:33
typical Texas boy he played football um he hunted he fished he went to church and he did well in school but he was
00:27:42
also kind he was thoughtful and he liked to be alone like he liked his alone right yeah and his sensitive side was
00:27:49
what appealed to Betty because she's a [ __ ] artist hell yeah and she quote sensed in him a kindred spirit and she
00:27:55
thought there was something lonely and romantic about him oh like yeah he's beautiful love yeah now they started out
00:28:02
with uh they started out as friends but by the summer after Betty's junior year they started dating and Betty fell in
00:28:09
love and she fell hard and she fell fast she told her friends all the time how Mac just seemed to get her he really
00:28:17
listened when she spoke he wanted to hear what she had to say but Mac on the other hand didn't really
00:28:24
talk a lot to his friends or really anybody else about his relationship with Betty come on he was very very aware and
00:28:32
very self-conscious that his relationship with her could affect his social status come on as her cousin
00:28:39
Shelton put it Betty never wore his football jacket never went to the Scott theater with him on a Saturday night and
00:28:46
never met his parents come on but she was like his steady girlfriend but it's like you're hiding
00:28:52
her away exactly you're treating her like everyone else in her life yeah what the [ __ ] so she got pissed yeah she
00:28:59
really liked Mac but the fact that he just had he lacked outward excitement and it started to piss her off so in
00:29:05
response to his distant and discreet [ __ ] annoying ass Behavior she tried to make him jealous one night because
00:29:12
that's what teenagers do if I had a [ __ ] dime for every boy that I tried to make jealous and it didn't work I
00:29:18
would have a [ __ ] a home full of Dimes so she tried to do that and she parked with one of his good friends oh yes and
00:29:28
he was another football player who was more popular and had actually been voted the most handsome in his class Stanton
00:29:35
also is apparently an [ __ ] because he's doing that to his friend I mean like what the [ __ ] most handsome classes
00:29:43
also superlatives are the weirdest [ __ ] thing ever so weird can we end them now yeah
00:29:50
talk about setting up some just [ __ ] up issues going right out into they've used high school with all these shitty
00:30:00
judgments and issues all over you and like it's it's really leading you up to like Plateau there that's my favorite
00:30:07
it's most likely to succeed because it's like all you other idiots [ __ ] all y'all
00:30:11
like only these two are gonna succeed I was nowhere near like most likely to succeed and I would like to say [ __ ] all
00:30:19
y'all cause I am succeeding okay I am success I am succession I also watch it on TV oh that's coming back in like a
00:30:28
month and I am stoked I am still on season two I'm ready for more shiv ah I love shiv I
00:30:35
don't know if I should say that but I do I normally on season two I love shiv I don't care what she does I love her I
00:30:41
don't care all right anyway this is the one forever if we keep sidetracking I don't know where we are right now so
00:30:47
high school parking with other boys trying to make your boyfriend jealous whatever whether she was trying to make
00:30:52
Mac jealous or get his attention or just get some kind of reaction from him is unknown whatever her intentions the
00:31:00
stunt backfired and by the start of the school year Mac had ended things with Betty oh which I understand I I can't
00:31:08
say I blame him and he started dating another girl and this is what sucks he was much more out there with his
00:31:16
relationship with this new girl that sucks everyone knew he was dating her and in a weird way and certainly to
00:31:23
Betty he seemed to be more proud of dating this girl oh that that makes me sad it's awful and the breakup
00:31:30
devastated Betty she finally had felt that real connection to somebody and it was ripped away from her right after it
00:31:39
had started whether she was partially at fault or not yeah it was like stupid teenage [ __ ] exactly it's so impulsive
00:31:46
yeah and like I am one of the most impulsive people so I can relate heavily to that but she told a friend oh my God
00:31:53
this hurts my heart I've never been so humiliated and Torn to Pieces I feel so lonely and deserted I don't care what
00:32:00
happens now or ever oh and it only got worse and you just want to be like it gets better it will get
00:32:07
better get out of this town and out of this High School it will get better she would have she would she would have yeah
00:32:14
so the end of her relationship with Max set the new school year off on a terrible note but that was only the
00:32:19
beginning of a slew of disappointments during the school year before this one Betty had really fostered her love of
00:32:26
the theater the theater by performing the lead in a lot of the school plays like multiple get it but this year there
00:32:32
was a new Drama teacher at the school her name was Enid Woodward and she didn't seem to see much talent or
00:32:39
ability in Betty and instead of giving her the lead in the school's production of winter set she gave I was like we're
00:32:46
falling off there she gave Betty the role of stage manager Enid didn't even get a act like an
00:32:57
actual role she made her stage manager painted I'm unimpressed me too and this is the thing for years theater was the
00:33:05
thing that fueled Betty's dreams of getting the [ __ ] out of Odessa and her fantasy of making a name for herself on
00:33:11
Broadway that was her dream it probably seemed like small potatoes to the adults
00:33:15
around her but Betty not getting any kind of part in the school play that would be devastating that's devastating
00:33:22
and then you add that on top of her breakup with Mac things were just making her feel like the world was crumbling
00:33:29
around her she was hopeless and she was feeling desperate so that fall in a letter to Mac she wrote well I guess you
00:33:36
accomplished what you set out to do you hurt me more than you'll ever know I've done a lot of things I know that were
00:33:42
bad and cheap but I swear before God that I didn't mean them to be like that I was just showing off I know it's much
00:33:48
too late with you Mac but I swear that another boy won't get the chance to say what you've said to me you've made me
00:33:53
realize that instead of being smart and sophisticated like I thought I was only being cheap and ugly and [ __ ] forgive
00:34:00
me for writing this last note and thank you for reading it I'll not trouble you again and Mac I haven't forgotten all
00:34:07
the good times we had when you think of me try to think of the good times we had
00:34:11
and not of this oh so that is not devastating so sad now if losing Mac and her dreams of
00:34:19
stardom weren't enough for Betty things escalated at home when her dad started snooping around her room while she was
00:34:27
gone oh no and one day he found her diary tucked away in a dresser drawer and Betty had detailed her experiences
00:34:36
with boys in this diary yeah so to John Williams the discovery that his daughter
00:34:41
was sexually active and not married was just outraged and further proof to him that she was turning away from God and
00:34:49
couldn't be trusted so now this only added to tensions at home so Betty has literally no nowhere
00:34:57
to go space yeah she doesn't have the stage at school she doesn't have the theater she doesn't have a boyfriend she
00:35:02
can go hang out with and now she is not happy at home and probably getting like prayed at oh pray that literally
00:35:10
literally so as fall turned into winter and Betty's losses piled up her mood just got darker and darker
00:35:17
just Sullen really and in that letter what really struck me was that she said instead of being and she named all these
00:35:25
positive things like I thought I was you've shown me that none of them is true and it's like oh no no no like that
00:35:33
like hold on to that that is what you are you are all those and it's like don't let anybody make you feel like you
00:35:39
are not those things but like we all know oh my God especially even now that it that can be hard yeah you know when
00:35:48
even when you know who you are I'm 37 I'm 37 right yeah I'm sorry seven years old like I know who I am like of course
00:35:54
I am who I am no I'm fine with it I like me I'm Popeye the Sailor Man but it's like you can see like a really nasty
00:36:02
comment yeah you you know where you are you can see a really nasty comment and it can make you second-guess yourself
00:36:10
because it's just you shouldn't see that [ __ ] no you know what I mean and you shouldn't be told that kind of stuff
00:36:15
what people think of you is is none of your business and that's the thing and it's like and especially when you're a
00:36:22
teenager it means so much more because because you're you're not there yet you're not in a place most of the time
00:36:29
like if you're one of the lucky ones that as a teenager was just completely awesome comfortable with who you were I
00:36:36
think about that nine times out of ten you're not there yet no it's like you are fragile you are in the building
00:36:42
phase and it's almost like a baby's head in the beginning how it's fusing together and it has a soft spot and if
00:36:49
anything can [ __ ] that up just while it's building itself to be your strong ass head that's exactly what it is she
00:36:56
is that soft spot well and I would have gotten to a really strong [ __ ] skull if she was able to Great point because
00:37:02
also her frontal lobe is still developing her decision making skills are not quite there yet exactly not
00:37:09
quite there it's just really sad and that's my excuse for everything I did in high school and after it makes me sad it
00:37:16
does so she was just really pulling back from everything and she told your cousin
00:37:21
Shelton she wanted to die if she couldn't be with Mac I think it was a lot that I don't think I know it was a
00:37:27
lot more than just not being with Mac but I think I it's weird I think like when you're
00:37:33
going through like so much you just crave a person and that's exactly what I think
00:37:39
it was like you said I don't think it was just not being with Mac I think it was with all of this happening I need
00:37:45
Mac yeah like that's the thing I need yup and if I can't have my God then like do you remember when everything was I
00:37:52
had like a very tumultuous time in high school where I was literally moving into
00:37:55
my grandparents house because things had gotten so bad and I was not really dating this guy but like we were we were
00:38:03
like about to date and then I invited him to your wedding because he was gonna be my plus one and then he said no I
00:38:10
felt like the [ __ ] world was crumbling beneath my feet because of that one incident like that was what set
00:38:17
it all off oh yeah but it was really that like no the world was actually just crumbling around me in many different
00:38:22
ways but when you're a teenager you put it on that because you like you need a person to get through everything exactly
00:38:28
you know but you don't you're an independent woman who don't need no man you've got this you do but when you're
00:38:33
16 you don't feel that way no way so she was was desperate to get Mac back but he
00:38:39
had already moved on with that other girl he felt bad but he didn't want to be back together with Betty So
00:38:46
eventually she started expressing Suicidal Thoughts to friends at school and in the drama Department very
00:38:52
regularly one friend remembered Betty said the situation at home was bad I wanted to help but I didn't know what to
00:38:58
do I was 16 years old exactly and like I remember my friends being in shitty situations and being like Oh my God like
00:39:06
you have to move in with us but like I could like yeah that wasn't gonna happen yeah like it's not my house I don't know
00:39:11
what to say nothing I can do so unfortunately Betty had spent years reveling in the reactions that she
00:39:17
received from her provocative Behavior her unfavorable opinions so to those around her these cries for help just
00:39:25
sounded like buddy looking for attention that's what they thought so it's like a
00:39:29
boy who cried wolf situation kind of yeah exactly they thought she was just trying to stir up some kind of drama but
00:39:35
there were countless times that Betty told her peers working on that play that she wanted to kill herself yeah and it's
00:39:42
like you you can never let that slip no you can't let that go away like you can't just be like well she's probably
00:39:48
just looking for it like don't do it no overall overreact always you will always
00:39:52
feel better if you overreact versus Under react exactly and she was constantly telling people this and
00:39:58
saying that she just didn't have the nerf oh see yeah so you got to tell someone like she was very like she's
00:40:04
being very clear about it and she's right up to her breaking point on at least five separate occasions Betty
00:40:11
asked another student if they would be willing to help her do this and no one told anyone worse they all laughed it
00:40:19
off they thought it was a joke that's a lot of [ __ ] up people like I'm sorry yeah I don't understand that I
00:40:28
don't get it at all like I don't get that if one of if one of my friends in high school
00:40:34
came said to me like I want to kill myself I'd be saying something right away anyway yeah but if they added on to
00:40:40
it would you help me do it I that's I mean come on I I don't know I don't either that's
00:40:49
[ __ ] up I think it was a combination of the time period oh yeah age of the people she was telling where they lived
00:40:58
and the fact that she had been quote unquote dramatic in the past it's like it's so wild to me though that the even
00:41:07
those oh it's wild to me there's can factor into just like what is right and what is wrong yeah you know yeah but
00:41:12
it's like what you thought it is right and what you think is wrong you know yeah you're absolutely right
00:41:19
what I think is right and what I think you are wrong like we I think we are right yeah but
00:41:25
it's I know it's so it's so hard you could be a completely different person and have a completely different view of
00:41:30
this which is which is crazy to me it's just like how there's different for you pages on Tick Tock that blows that's
00:41:37
true like not everyone's for you page is like mine yeah like what yeah like you don't just constantly get parenting
00:41:42
things no I do ours are very like they are but sometimes you like you get those stitches from like another side of tick
00:41:50
tock and you're like that exists oh yes sometimes you get real scared and you're
00:41:53
like am I on and then all of a sudden the Stitch comes through and you're like really cool you're like what did I talk
00:41:58
about last time the [ __ ] did I just get into yeah also sorry that we're going off on like side pieces here I'm sure it
00:42:04
kind of feels a little bit weird but I think it's also just us trying to get through this 100 this is like very heavy
00:42:09
it's very heavy a little stressful it is so back to it one night Mack agreed to give Betty and another friend a ride
00:42:16
home from school and Betty actually ended up posing the question to Mac would he be willing to kill her she
00:42:22
asked him wow she said and this is this is a lot so if you'd like to skip forward I understand
00:42:28
she said she would be the one to hold the gun to her head and all he would have to do is pull the trigger because
00:42:33
she couldn't oh my God now he assumed that she was just being melodramatic and he laughed at the suggestion which made
00:42:41
Betty and her friend laugh as well I think at that point she was like oh like no Julie kidding you know yeah but she
00:42:48
wasn't gonna give up that easily that night she wrote out and signed a document that she planned to give Mac so
00:42:55
that he could be absolved of any responsibility in the event that he was arrested for her murder oh my God just
00:43:01
the the sheer amount of time that she thought about this is like so sad months and months but she was just sitting
00:43:08
there thinking about killing herself like that I'm I know that probably sounds ignorant because I'm sure that is
00:43:14
like a lot of people's experiences but it is a lot of people yeah it's just like but it's just like whoa like that
00:43:22
just like thinking about that just like gave me a pit in myself it's really heavy yeah I think it's also it's as a
00:43:28
lot about where she was that no adult realized like no one came to hurry no one was
00:43:35
listening to these conversations nobody overheard this like yeah like what the [ __ ] all the adults just failed here
00:43:42
they did everybody failed yeah they truly did everybody did now the next day during uh play practice Betty actually
00:43:49
pulled Mac into the prop closet and she again asked him will you please help me she told him about everything that was
00:43:56
going on at home how lonely she had been since they broke up and how she just had
00:44:01
no hope for the future and she believed that death was the only way to avoid a life of misery wow I I have to believe
00:44:09
that she thought she was going somewhere else yeah I don't think she thought it was it was everything just went black
00:44:16
like I think she thought she was escaping to a more beautiful place yeah and I hope she did I hope so too now
00:44:22
maybe he still thought Betty was joking I don't know or maybe he felt guilty for
00:44:26
contributing to her misery I will never know but whatever was the case Mack agreed to
00:44:33
kill Betty Williams ah okay nuts okay nuts so on the evening of March 22nd Betty waited until her
00:44:42
parents had gone to bed and then she snuck out of the house and down the street where she actually met up with
00:44:47
her new boyfriend Ike nail oh he was waiting for her in his car the two of them sat in his car parked around the
00:44:54
corner from buddy's house for a while until Mac finally arrived to meet them and when Mac pulled up to Betty or
00:45:00
excuse me one Mac pulled up Betty said to Ike oh my God I didn't think he'd come
00:45:06
oh man and she told Ike what she and Mac had been planning to do that evening but
00:45:11
even when Max car pulled up Ike remained convinced that she was only joking guys if she is not like a stand-up
00:45:20
comedian no like what is this like oh she must be joking like is she just constantly joking also where's the joke
00:45:28
that's the thing like tell me what the punch line is like where's the funny part like I'm failing to see this these
00:45:34
people are shocking shocking like really shocking it's because they're teenagers
00:45:39
oh so she opened the door and she stepped out of the car and she turned to Ike and said I gotta call this Bluff
00:45:45
even if he kills me whoa like as she was I think she was joking around it because I think she was
00:45:52
probably nervous but she was oh my gosh she was ready in her own way oh that hurts my heart so she got in the car
00:45:58
with mac and Mac drove out to his family's hunting cabin in the woods Betty was dressed in pajamas in a duster
00:46:04
coat and she told Mac that she'd been thinking about this for a while and that she had even tried previously to do this
00:46:11
herself she tried to take sleeping pills but it only made her sick she continued her line of thinking
00:46:16
talking about how she was going to be sorry to leave Ike so soon after they started dating she allegedly told Mac
00:46:23
how happy she was going to be dead oh my God like a direct quote it's like did you try to convince her otherwise we
00:46:31
have to hope so but I I don't know if Mac had the capacity to do that that's so sad you know like I I don't know him
00:46:42
but from what I do know of him I just picture him sitting there like quietly and just like I'm just enjoying or maybe
00:46:49
even disassociating yeah you know [Music] so they arrived at the hunting cabin they sat in the car and they talked for
00:47:10
another 15 or 20 minutes but then at the same time I actually I guess I don't picture him just sitting there quietly
00:47:16
because I don't think Betty would have found him to be like attractive if you just sat there quietly and like not not
00:47:24
giving her anything yeah like she she wanted to have profound conversations absolutely
00:47:28
so they talked a little bit and then mocked her of the Jeep down by the pond and
00:47:34
parked on the shore when they re when they reached the pond they both got out of the car and they started walking
00:47:39
toward the shore sure but Betty had left her duster in the Jeep and it was really
00:47:43
cold by the water so she actually went back to the car to get her coat and then walked back down
00:47:49
and when she came back she removed her shoes and she told Max she was ready and Mac told her give me a kiss to
00:47:55
remember you bye she leaned in she kissed him she said thank you Mac I will always remember you
00:48:02
for that she was standing there with bare feet and she took the barrel of the hunting
00:48:07
rifle that Mac had held in his hands she drew it to her left temple she said now
00:48:12
and Mac pulled the trigger oh my God she was 17 years old holy [ __ ] 17 years old
00:48:21
oh my God that is the most chilling account I've ever heard I have Goosebumps telling it yeah I had
00:48:29
goosebumps writing it I've had like nightmares about this yeah I'm like picturing it in my head it's playing
00:48:35
like a movie it is freaking me out it is this is such a haunting case yeah like my whole body is killed right now I
00:48:43
think this is one that will absolutely stay with me for many many years this is the sadness and just the fact that
00:48:51
she found somebody willing to do this that's she she couldn't find someone that was willing to Value her but she
00:48:58
was she could find someone that was willing to kill her like how [ __ ] is that like God she just man you just want
00:49:07
to like pay you want to go back in time pick her up and just be like come live with me like let's go first let's go
00:49:12
we're gonna take you somewhere where people are gonna think you're [ __ ] right run away yeah like I'm Gonna Get
00:49:16
You Out of This like are you kidding me oh it's awful I said when it was done Mac returned to the car and he had this
00:49:26
was a plan because he came with he brought along with him two large lead weights he tied them around Betty's
00:49:34
waist and after removing his clothes he dragged her body into the pond he later told reporter she sank right
00:49:40
away she had 50 pounds of lead tied to her okay Mac he's very blunt matter of fact
00:49:47
now after she sang he returned to the car and he got dressed and he sat in the parked car with the heater running so
00:49:52
that he could warm up and with all the walking back and forth his boots had gotten money and he didn't
00:49:58
want to get the interior of his Jeep dirty because priorities I guess wow like that's the fact that his head could
00:50:05
even go there after murdering somebody yeah like I mean it's killing somebody yeah at the very least
00:50:14
that you you could even think like oh like your life just goes on like you don't want your car to be dirty tomorrow
00:50:20
when you wake up in your happy life oh my God like what so because he didn't want his Jeep to be dirty he left his uh
00:50:28
his shoes by the by the mud in the uh by the pond in the mud excuse me and they would be found by the police the next
00:50:34
day wow so once he was sufficiently warm Mack drove home and went to bed just went to sleep just went to sleep
00:50:43
a few days later after body after Betty's body had been recovered reporters asked Mack how he felt about
00:50:50
what he had done and he said I never felt worse in my life but I know she's better off she's better off like she's
00:50:57
better off dead like what I don't know what they had to have talked about for her or for him to feel
00:51:05
convinced that like that her life wasn't worth living oh that's the thing like that's what's
00:51:13
so shocking about this like he even he didn't have the capacity to look far ahead enough into the future yeah like
00:51:21
he had no hope for like and it's like nuns whatsoever like how do you not see like the the Brilliance here I and he
00:51:29
did that's the thing like that's why he wanted to be with her yeah but then at the same time he was ashamed of her yeah
00:51:36
it's Fox's complex it is and it only gets more complex and it only has more [ __ ] jaw-dropping oh wow so on March
00:51:46
22nd two days after Betty had snuck out of the house to meet Mac her mother Mary
00:51:50
Williams called the police to report her daughter missing two days later okay thank you for
00:51:56
repeating that because for a second I was like I think I heard that wrong you didn't two days later okay I don't [ __ ]
00:52:02
these people I don't know about that yeah so the police visited the high school and with the cooperation of the school
00:52:07
principal they interviewed anybody who might have any information about where Betty had gone
00:52:12
eventually detectives got to the cast and crew of the school play which included Betty's new boyfriend Ike who
00:52:20
told the police about the exchange that he had with Betty the night he dropped her off in the alley to meet Matt
00:52:25
herring no and it's like I get what it's been two days it's been two days and like did you not think like I mean
00:52:33
she literally told you you haven't heard her entire plan like that tells you everything you need to know the silence
00:52:39
come on SO at first Mac told and this is interesting to me it's just strange he told police that he
00:52:47
had driven Betty home after play practice on the evening of the 20th and that he dropped her off at her front
00:52:53
door around 8 30 P.M so he lied immediately yeah no he maintained for a little while that that
00:53:00
was the last time he'd ever seen her but the more mac talked the more the interviewing officers noticed
00:53:06
inconsistencies in his story and their suspicions were enough to move their conversation from the nice familiar
00:53:12
surroundings of the principal's office to a way more intimidating downtown Police Department yeah after about 45
00:53:18
minutes of additional questioning downtown Mac finally broke down and he admitted to killing buddy
00:53:25
he told the Odessa Odessa Police youth officer Bobby McAllen Bobby McAlpine he said there is
00:53:35
no motive I think I'm crazy oh yeah no he later explained to other officer that during play practice two days
00:53:44
earlier Betty had again begged him to end her life because quote she couldn't take living anymore like she had been
00:53:50
living it was just so sad and he said he agreed to her request with the intention of
00:53:56
talking her out of it but after talking with her on the way to the pond by the cabin he decided to go through with it
00:54:03
like what I don't know I I wish that we could know what the interested well like
00:54:09
what the conversation was in that car like bro why'd you even bring the gun yeah why'd you like it load it if you
00:54:16
were gonna talk or why did you have lead weights if you were gonna talk her out of it like that's the thing it's like
00:54:22
why'd you load that gun if you had to bring it to show her like I'm going through with this plan just so she would
00:54:28
get in the car and you could talk to her exactly but like not loaded but it shouldn't have been loaded No it should
00:54:33
have been that thing where you go there's no [ __ ] bullets in here and also like you're not doing this parents
00:54:37
yeah why is your 16 year old son getting into his car with a hunting rifle do you
00:54:42
want to ask a question like and weights like wouldn't you question that where are the adults yeah so to the
00:54:50
interviewing officers Mac's story was completely [ __ ] unbelievable yeah they had never seen anything and
00:54:55
probably never would ever see yeah like this again what sane person would shoot and kill somebody simply because they
00:55:02
asked like what yeah but when he talked about the shooting at the pond his story
00:55:07
never changed and his tone never changed it remained flat and consistent so they were like okay we're gonna drive
00:55:14
down to the hunting cabin and like see what what happens yeah even as they were driving down they were still convinced
00:55:20
that he wasn't telling the truth they were still skeptical when they arrived at the pond and Mac pointed
00:55:27
toward the area where he left Betty's body but the story became more convincing when he directed them to the shore where
00:55:34
they found spots of Blood and Tissue on the ground now whether because they were
00:55:39
unconvinced or unsure where to look the officers actually asked Mac if he would go into the pond and retrieve the body
00:55:45
whoa so he undressed and entered the water are you kidding standing in nearly four
00:55:52
feet of water he signaled that he had found Betty and he reached down to grab a hold of her and dragged her back to
00:56:00
the shore they just had him drag her out yup I don't I don't I have literally I don't
00:56:11
know what to say this is I don't know what to say by far and wide the most brutal case that I've covered with like
00:56:19
in the strangest in the strangest way like everything about this is Bleak and brutal and [ __ ] up I'm rendered
00:56:27
speechless and that's yeah that's that is something so he stood on the shore with the officers and told and retold
00:56:35
the story of how of what had happened and he explained that he asked Betty for a kiss to remember her bye and then
00:56:42
everything had happened now days later the pathologist would confirm his story in the preliminary autopsy report it
00:56:49
stated the girl died from a shotgun blast which tore into the side of her head and partially decapitated her oh my
00:56:56
God it's a hunting rifle at point-blank rage so soon additional officers and technicians were called to the scene
00:57:03
along with an ambulance to transport the body and a large number of photographers and
00:57:09
reporters because this is the 50s anybody can show up yeah or excuse me it's the 60s so the
00:57:15
story was true but to everybody in Odessa it still seemed [ __ ] unbelievable and you want to know why it seemed so
00:57:23
unbelievable oh why because Mac was such a nice boy my favorite thing no one could ever picture him doing something
00:57:31
like that one student told the reporters I just can't see Mac something terrible must have happened
00:57:38
that drove him to do this oh yeah he had such a bright future and then there were
00:57:43
other students who confirmed at least some of Mac's story and they told reporters that Betty had also asked them
00:57:48
to do the same thing for her one student claimed that Betty had even offered to pay him too oh that's her which I don't
00:57:54
know if that's the truth I think that could just be somebody wanting 15 minutes of fame that is horrific another
00:57:59
student said that Betty told them I want to die but I want to die pretty I don't
00:58:04
want my face disfigured oh just like awful which is not what happened no no it seemed like literally everyone in the
00:58:14
school play had at one time or another been asked by Betty to help with this plan my God but as one classmate put it
00:58:22
she had a morbid sense of humor nobody took her serious but she acted serious it's like so if she was acting serious
00:58:30
then why did nobody take her seriously yeah everybody needs to have a moment with themselves here this story you
00:58:38
gotta have a moment with a mirror and your your uh therapist whatever it is you gotta just have a moment yeah so
00:58:46
everybody recognized the tragedy and the seriousness of the situation maybe but no baby I'm like I don't really know
00:58:52
about that but nobody seemed willing to say an ill world word about Mac Herring even Ike nail who was dating Betty and
00:59:00
had literally delivered her to her faith that evening refused to talk to reporters and the only thing he would
00:59:06
say was anything I might say would just hurt Mac what the [ __ ] is going on what about
00:59:13
Betty what does he have on all of you I have he's popular like damn he's a football star and he's popular that's
00:59:19
literally it he rules the [ __ ] world in high school I gotta go so Betty's death prompted an outpouring of support
00:59:28
for Mac yep I was just gonna say and that support included everything that it really shouldn't have quote
00:59:36
concerned phone calls to him visits from friends and no seeming diminution of his
00:59:42
popularity I think I said that right by the way I think you did yeah now while students and friends were completely
00:59:49
shocked to learn of Betty's death they were also surprised to learn quote that Mac and a lot of the other boys we knew
00:59:55
had been spending time with Betty after they had taken their girlfriends home so people are [ __ ] talking her still
01:00:03
cool she has been killed she has gotten so desperate and so lonely and so sad that she begged somebody to end her life
01:00:12
they agreed she's not here anymore and y'all are still talking [ __ ] when people show you
01:00:20
who they are believe them oh my God because yep like it is that tells you everything you need to know it is beyond
01:00:28
disgusting that this is the information they were spreading about her all around
01:00:33
Odessa it seemed the consensus was Betty was odd and provocative the kind of girl
01:00:38
who would do something like this that's what they were saying Jesus Mack on the other hand though Elena quote Mac would
01:00:45
break his arm before he would hurt anybody then why didn't he um so show me that broken arm where's
01:00:53
your broken arm yeah like who said that yeah he would break his arm before he hurt anybody he shot someone in the head
01:00:59
so he killed someone I don't know what you guys are talking about Jesus now after the body had been recovered and
01:01:05
the statements had been given John MC Herring was taken before a justice of the peace and Kermit where he pleaded
01:01:12
not guilty to a charge of murder with malice now his attorney William uh Deirdre
01:01:19
waved his rights to an examining trial and he was taken to Winkler County jail and held on a ten thousand dollar Bond
01:01:26
he was released on bond the following day so that tells you a lot about this and
01:01:32
returned home with his parents to await news of a hearing good like whoa that seems right also ten thousand dollars
01:01:40
back then I actually didn't look at it a lot they was rich rich apparently yeah now funeral funeral services for Betty
01:01:48
were held on Friday March 24th at odessa's Friendship Baptist Church which pisses me off because she wouldn't have
01:01:55
wanted that yeah attendance was at capacity the fact that it was at capacity it's like she was more popular
01:02:02
in death than she ever was in life and it just like oh my gosh it is just [ __ ] up like it
01:02:10
really speaks to this situation how shallow everyone is the preacher read a passage from The
01:02:17
Book of Revelations over Betty's closed casket and her father filled with regret I'm sure yeah wailed
01:02:26
uncontrollably in the front Pew like lost it on more than one occasion her sister had to literally hold her father
01:02:34
back from hurling himself on top of the on top of the casket it's like well like
01:02:40
give her the love she needed in her whole life like you can't just do it now I think a lot of that was regretting the
01:02:48
way that he had treated her in life and absolutely guilt yeah you know now elsewhere that same day district
01:02:54
attorney Don Sullivan was examining a note that had been given to him by Mack's Father which he believed
01:03:01
exonerated his son the letter was dated March 20th 1961 and it was written in Betty's handwriting it
01:03:09
read and this is a lot I want everyone to know that what I'm about to do in no way
01:03:15
implicates anyone else I say this to make sure that no blame falls on anyone other than myself I have depressing
01:03:22
problems that concern for the most part myself I'm waging a war Within Myself a war to find the true me and I fear that
01:03:29
I'm losing the battle so rather than admit defeat I'm going to beat a quick Retreat into the No Man's Land of death
01:03:36
as they have only the will and not the fortitude necessary a friend of mine seeing how great is my torment has
01:03:44
graciously consented to look after the details his name is Matt Herring and I pray he will not have to suffer for what
01:03:52
he is doing for my sake I take appla I take upon myself all blame for there it lies on me alone sincerely Betty
01:04:01
Williams she's also a brilliant writer she's a brilliant I think she would have had a
01:04:07
[ __ ] phenomenal career in writing oh that's heart-wrenching though and just the fact that she sat and and still
01:04:15
there was no one knocking on her door peeking their head in while she was writing this like she knew there
01:04:21
wouldn't be why yeah why wasn't anyone there for her so the DA's office was hesitant to
01:04:27
discuss the case publicly because they worried that it would affect their ongoing investigation negatively
01:04:33
but the prosecutor John Banks did explain the seriousness of the charge to the press and he said I understand he
01:04:40
got his shotgun his lead weights and his rope and then picked the girl up this constitutes murder with malice of
01:04:47
forethought yeah it does it does and according to Banks the obvious planning that went into this execution was
01:04:54
grounds for the most serious of punishments and as such he was recommending to the D.A that the death
01:05:01
penalty be attached oof yeah I don't know about that I also don't know about that I don't think that was a
01:05:08
good idea I don't either now as weeks went by the DA's office really wrestled with how to go forward because Mac had
01:05:15
confessed to The Killing but his explanation still to everybody seemed completely far-fetched and completely
01:05:20
unbelievable because by all accounts he was this normal boy who did really great
01:05:25
in school never caused anybody trouble the principal of the high school literally told reporters if I were asked
01:05:31
to name my most Cooperative student I would pause him in it and then say Matt Herring wow like wow and it's also so
01:05:39
sad that everybody is talking about Mac and what a great person he is cool he's still here you guys can tell him that
01:05:44
later yeah exactly anybody want to say a word about Betty yeah the timed word why
01:05:49
don't we let Mac get through his murder trial yeah we can wait on the compliments and then why don't we talk
01:05:55
about Betty well while we wait maybe for the murder trial no other school officials had to had to chime in too
01:06:01
because they felt similarly oh yeah they referred to macca's Fair really quiet very friendly well-liked and real clean
01:06:08
cut oh yeah always has a haircut you know what I feel like school officials in the 50s and 60s just loved a football
01:06:17
player excuse like it was still the case when I was in school it's like he was well liked he's
01:06:28
like oh okay tackle someone and catch and throw wowie kazawi yeah it's just um America
01:06:38
[Music] now even Betty's parents told the police and the press that they had actually
01:06:54
always liked Mac and in the months since Betty's death her father uh his sorry her father's quote heart was too filled
01:07:02
with grief to Harbor hate for the Slayer of his daughter oh that's just sad it is really sad I I
01:07:08
feel badly that he had to suspend the rest of his life wondering what had happened absolutely or not wondering
01:07:16
what had happened but living with like guilty yeah living with the whole situation so the sentiment among the
01:07:21
students was also similar one girl said we must feel sorry for Mac now we can feel sorrow for Betty later
01:07:29
go [ __ ] yourself and what about that makes sense we have to feel we have to show up for Mac right now worry about
01:07:37
Betty later it's like oh that seemed to always be the [ __ ] issue y'all that's why we're here don't worry about Betty
01:07:44
later like I hope you stub your toe later now others just didn't even bother to mask their bias one day literally
01:07:51
like barely after buddy had died her uncle overheard another guy uh overheard a guy tell another guy everyone knew
01:08:00
that girl was no good she tricked that boy into killing her oh my God but like what was the trick
01:08:07
does this sound like Footloose what's going on it sounds like it like Jesus I think it kind of was like that yeah also
01:08:15
like but like what's the trick she tricked him into doing this well that's the thing it's like okay she tricked him
01:08:20
into getting the lead weights like well it's like she's got the ultimate punishment here she's gone like what
01:08:27
like what ridiculous yeah so he's a hunter he knows what happens when you pull a trigger I don't know where the
01:08:32
trick lies now despite the disbelief and bewilderment from staff and students and
01:08:37
law enforcement and the press and every investigating officer ever people couldn't help but notice how
01:08:43
seemingly unaffected Mac was by everything specifically investigating officers as he told the story to these
01:08:50
officers on the night after his arrest officer McAlpine was completely put off by his flat emotionless tone while he
01:08:57
literally told of killing his former girlfriend seriously officers who had accompanied Mac to the location of the
01:09:04
body they were also disturbed by his lack of emotion one highway patrol officer recalled it didn't move him when
01:09:10
he pulled her body out of the water or when he said that he had put a shotgun to her head my God something's wrong
01:09:16
there something's deeply wrong now his seemingly remorseless attitude also struck reporters as unusual
01:09:24
the swell of character references and just support for Mac really didn't align with somebody who had just killed
01:09:29
another person without explanation and the descriptions of him didn't match the flat remorseless killer who had been
01:09:36
cooperating since day one he was like a dichotomy and enough himself yeah now according to the sheriff Bill Edens he
01:09:42
said something's missing somewhere you don't just take people out and shoot them like rabbits no that's exactly how
01:09:48
I feel like something is very much something is missing here some kind of like human empathy and compassion final
01:09:55
piece of this but the lack of motive was holding up the case from progressing to
01:09:59
trial but that also didn't stop anybody from speculating as to the reason for the death officers in the sheriff's
01:10:05
department actually started to speculate that Betty wanted to restart her relationship with mac and was asking
01:10:13
classmates to kill her so that she could gain some kind of sympathy from Mac and
01:10:18
win his love back wow now their their theory if you can even call it that suggested that this
01:10:25
entire thing was just a melodramatic game rather than a serious desire to end her life which she went through what she
01:10:32
went through with yeah and the students at Odessa High they had similar theories
01:10:37
they said this whole thing they were like I think it was a joke I think it all started as a joke with mac and Betty
01:10:43
trying to out Bluff each other they said and then he must have just cracked up and killed Betty
01:10:50
like what but he's a great guy so don't don't think anything different awesome dude yeah now after months of looking
01:10:58
for any kind of explanation for Betty's death to the DA's office finally gave up
01:11:03
looking and they just filed papers to take the case to trial now on June 23 1961 judge G.C Olsen of the 109th
01:11:12
District Court set the trial date for September 18th there were all kinds of delays all kinds
01:11:18
of hold ups but finally his trial got underway in mid-February of 1962. wow now because he had confessed to the
01:11:26
killing the question at hand was if he was of sound mind at the time of the killing and could be held accountable or
01:11:32
not his defense team filed a motion to have a sanity hearing held separately from
01:11:37
the murder charge which was actually granted by the uh by the judge on the grounds that if Mack was deemed insane
01:11:44
at the time of the killing he could not be held accountable accountable and then
01:11:48
they wouldn't have to have a criminal trial okay now the DA's office immediately objected and they filed a
01:11:54
motion to have mac evaluated by a psychiatrist who was far more qualified than a jury to determine sanity but the
01:12:03
judge actually rejected the the motion what isn't that bananas there it is no the jury can do it no so in their
01:12:10
opening remarks the defense team took the dish the position that no sane person would do what Mac had done and
01:12:17
through evidence and testimony they said they would show that he was just a tool
01:12:22
in Betty Williams scheme oh so now she's scheming to end her life yeah she's she's dead but now
01:12:30
she's scheming let's totally slander her in court now now the prosecution on the
01:12:34
other hand told the jury John and this is a quote John MC Herring planned prepared and executed a horrible offense
01:12:41
and was of sound mind at the time this was a cold-blooded premeditated murder and that's and uh Dan Sullivan said that
01:12:51
to the jury and then he added that the prosecution was going to prove as much by demonstrating that John MC Herring
01:12:57
was cool and rational just one day after the killing sounds like he was he literally was now opening statements
01:13:04
were followed by a ton of character Witnesses testifying on Mac's behalf because everybody was just dying yada
01:13:10
yada yada he's so great there was also a handwriting analyst verifying Betty's letter to the police and Dr Marvin Grice
01:13:17
a psychiatrist who actually had evaluated Mac on multiple occasions and the days after the killing was also
01:13:23
there and he told the jury that he believed Mack was insane at the time of the killing he noted that he believed
01:13:29
Mack was quote suffering from gross stress reaction at the time of the tragedy and he said based on his discussions
01:13:36
with Mac Grace concluded that Betty was quote in a condition of Death Wish and that her persistent request LED Mack
01:13:45
to being dethroned of his reasoning what and his professional opinion was then echoed by nine character Witnesses
01:13:53
who were mostly students yeah that agreed Mac was not in his right uh mind at the time of the murder like cool
01:13:59
we're just gonna take a bunch of 17 year olds all right cool also you're not as a
01:14:05
psychiatrist or a psychologist supposed to diagnose anybody that you've never seen
01:14:12
no the psychiatrist had never seen that 101. he had never seen Betty so how is he supposed to talk about her frame of
01:14:19
mind yeah ridiculous now on cross-examination he admitted he hadn't even talked to Betty's parents or
01:14:26
friends and he was emo he was basing his understanding of Betty's emotional state
01:14:32
entirely on interviews with mac and some of the handful of students that had visited him for treatment that are
01:14:39
obsessed with him cool he said that sounds like a great pool to choose from for like totally unbiased reviews like
01:14:47
you haven't even spoken to her family dude yeah he said that her persistent pleadings that's what he called them had
01:14:53
cosmack to become quote so mixed up and so sick that he felt pulling the trigger
01:14:58
was the uh was what he should do for her he was deprived of the power of applying
01:15:03
logic wow no did you limber up before you stretched that far he was deprived of the power of applying logic literally no
01:15:18
one can do that to you if you have a way of like figuring something out you do yeah or you don't like you could apply
01:15:27
logic if it's there and he's implying that it was Betty Who robbed him scheming and it's like oh so we're just
01:15:33
gonna keep stiff like just it's all Betty's fault yeah so everybody was just coming on the stand and being like well
01:15:38
she was dramatic and she was always saying this stuff and blah blah blah blah blah so I like the gossip that
01:15:44
began circulating in the wake of Betty's death and the community's rushed to support Mac the defense's case relied
01:15:50
heavily on victim blaming to just absolve Mack of any kind of responsibility under normal circumstances he was a good
01:15:57
boy who would have gone above and beyond to help anybody they all said it was only after Betty's ceaseless
01:16:03
melodramatic badgering that he lost the power to apply logic and it's like no one's really arguing
01:16:11
here that much about like whether this is how it happened that like Betty asked and he did it yeah no one's really
01:16:19
arguing that what we're arguing is are you [ __ ] kidding me that someone asks you to kill them and you do it yeah like
01:16:28
that's that's honestly the purest thing that we're really looking at here no one's really arguing that Betty was
01:16:35
suicidal that she had expressed suicidal ideation yep that she had asked several people to
01:16:42
help her do this including Mac several times yep the problem here is that all those people said no and you said yes
01:16:52
yup and then you did it like that's that's where the problem lies that's a problem like
01:17:00
nobody does that and now the problem is that we're relying on a bunch of 17 year
01:17:04
olds to say whether he was sane or not exactly do you even know what sane means he's at 17 years old I sure didn't no no
01:17:11
so the next day Mac was actually called to testify on his own behalf and the prosecution asked him when was it that
01:17:19
you lost contact with reality um excuse me what objection leading the witness thank you Jesus Christ Matt
01:17:30
couldn't recall he said he he had no idea because he was like because I didn't like that I don't know what that
01:17:37
means exactly he was also pretty evasive when Sullivan pointed out that he had told at least one person
01:17:43
his girlfriend his current girlfriend that he planned to kill Betty so this suggested that at some point
01:17:52
before it happened Mack knew he was going to kill Betty which meant that he wasn't insane at the time of the murder
01:17:58
because he was full well planning to do it days before and actually told his girlfriend that he was wow and she
01:18:05
didn't do anything either these are so he was like Sullivan was like what's the deal with that and Mac responded I
01:18:13
didn't I didn't know as you speak of knowing I didn't want to kill buddy I just wanted to help her
01:18:20
you know what maybe all these people do need Jesus I don't know like something's
01:18:25
something's awry well like what does that mean I didn't know as you speak of knowing
01:18:31
what are you Dr Seuss like what is this he also testified that Betty had asked him on three separate occasions if she
01:18:40
if he would kill her and he estimated this consumed a total of some 28 minutes so this prompted Sullivan to ask in 28
01:18:49
minutes was she able to wear you down and Dethrone you of your reason and macro applied no sir
01:18:56
wow so that tells you everything you need to know people he admitted it he admitted it
01:19:05
28 minutes on like over the course of multiple days you were not 28 minutes that was just I think he literally
01:19:12
pulled that out of thin air now the jury deliberated for almost 11 hours and at one point they even sent the judge a
01:19:18
note saying that they had become hopelessly deadlocked wow and the judge responded by telling them that the note
01:19:25
was premature like nearly 11 hours and he said the evidence presented during the trial
01:19:33
would indicate that further deliberation of this matter might result in the further progress in further progress
01:19:38
being made okay so he's basically saying like if you deliberate too much in this matter
01:19:46
we might go forward to a criminal trial I think that's exactly what he was trying to say
01:19:51
now Mac literally disagreed with the psychiatrist's assessment of his temporary insanity but the jury returned
01:19:59
a verdict finding that he was temporarily insane when he fired the bullet that ended Betty Williams That's
01:20:05
bananas so when the verdict was read Max family erupted into tears and Applause but before the judge even claws into a
01:20:14
plot that is so [ __ ] up so disrespectful yeah so disrespectful but before the judge finished reading the
01:20:21
verdict John Banks the attorney for the prosecution objected and moved that a mistrial be declared declared on the
01:20:28
grounds that the jury had made a mistake in filling out the forms but judge Olson
01:20:33
immediately denied that wow so shocked so in the wake of the verdict the D.A Don
01:20:40
Sullivan actually filed an appeal of the ruling arguing that Mac Herring had been
01:20:44
indicted for murder and that judge Olson didn't have the jurisdiction to set aside the indictment and pursue only the
01:20:51
question of the sanity yeah so this was like a whole mistrial basically essentially he was arguing that Max
01:20:58
sanity should have been a factor for consideration when it was determining whether or not he was guilty or Innocent
01:21:04
but saying that the court never had the jurisdiction to determine that factor separate from the trial in the first
01:21:10
place making the verdict completely illegitimate boom so after hearing the case the state supreme court agreed with the
01:21:19
District Attorney's Office reverse the verdict and prompted a new trial for me and it was as though the first trial
01:21:27
didn't take place so the retrial started on December 2nd 1962 and I think it's Beaumont Texas
01:21:35
yeah I think you're right cool I didn't look it up yeah uh the church was on one
01:21:41
count of murder with malice and if he were to be found guilty he could receive the death penalty if that was still on
01:21:47
the table again he was represented by the same Council and it basically like everybody was the same the day was the
01:21:54
same Mac had the same lawyer blah blah blah yeah also this was Dan Sullivan the district attorney his second murder
01:22:02
trial oh my God this is your second murder trial the first one was Max previous trial
01:22:10
wow yeah now from the jump it was clear that this trial was going to go exactly the same as the first one had gone that
01:22:19
sucks the defense team's position was that Mac did shoot Betty but only after she had worn him down by repeatedly
01:22:26
begging him to do so it was literally the same trial over and over again now once again though Betty's
01:22:33
letter absolving Mac of responsibility was the anchor for the defense and as was the testimony of Mac's dad O A
01:22:41
chairing so you know he's Rich his name is oh he told the sun his son he told the jury his son quote was a happy boy
01:22:49
before always smiling now that old smile is missing it's not there it's like he's
01:22:55
trying to make up for the sorrow he's caused good I was gonna say like I hope he is
01:23:02
Bully for him I don't okay so max mother just basically echoed her husband's testimony and told the jury that she had
01:23:10
directly asked her son whether or not he had done it and he said I must have as if he couldn't remember oh so she was
01:23:17
trying to be like he was insane yeah he blacked out now even though the arguments from both sides were pretty
01:23:22
much the same as they had been in the first trial the second trial quickly became a media circus there were
01:23:28
multiple occasions where the defense objected to a certain seemingly innocuous piece of evidence that was
01:23:36
being admitted but later on they asked that that same piece of evidence be admitted for no other reason than to
01:23:42
just undermine and manipulate the Public's view of it so there's like gaslighting people they're like get out
01:23:47
of here that does nothing and then they're like bring that back on take that out why would you do that awesome
01:23:53
at one point the judge also seemed to think that district attorney Sullivan was implying that the court wasn't being
01:23:59
fair because he'd spoken out against the defense's court Romantics and the judge
01:24:04
told him that he would hold him in contempt of court for three days if he ever suggested anything like that again
01:24:10
holy [ __ ] I'm like you guys are losing sight of what we're here for you guys gotta chill now aside from the antics
01:24:16
it was all the same there was no new information or evidence so it was hard to imagine any kind of different outcome
01:24:23
and there wasn't after deliberating for several hours the jury delivered a verdict of not guilty
01:24:31
now for a time it seemed like there would be another deadlock jury especially when the judge ruled that the
01:24:37
jury couldn't review the trans transcript of the witness testimony when they requested it
01:24:43
um that's shady I don't think that's okay yeah but the next day they all reached a unanimous decision and upon
01:24:50
hearing a verdict Max parents rushed to the jury box and started thanking the jury telling them it's going to be a
01:24:59
Merry Christmas wow uh not for Betty's family yeah but thanks and her father on the other hand
01:25:07
was overheard to mutter it is a gross miscarriage of Justice yeah which it is I agree so
01:25:14
it's just awful now from the moment Betty was pulled from the pond where she was literally
01:25:22
weighted down and dumped by somebody that she had loved once yeah the residents of Odessa both young and old
01:25:29
and everything in between they had already made up their minds about what had happened why it happened and who was
01:25:34
to blame Mack was just a normal kid played football got good grades he was always quick to help when anybody needed
01:25:42
anything but Betty she was challenging she was defiant she was a progressive Misfit and worst of all she engaged in
01:25:51
sex well worst of all now in the absence of an explanation the people of Odessa and pretty much all of Texas maybe did
01:25:59
what they had always done they just assumed that whatever had happened it was almost certainly Betty's fault they
01:26:05
said she had harassed Mac to the point that he was powerless to apply reason and he would never have done this if she
01:26:11
hadn't been so manipulative wow yeah wow now the truth is the only person who really knows why Mac pulled the trigger
01:26:18
isma is Mac yeah and he died in 2019. oh so his motive will likely remain a mystery wow but what we can say is
01:26:27
regardless of what she thought she wanted or what Mac felt like the right thing was Betty's death could have been
01:26:34
avoided if even one [ __ ] person one [ __ ] person was there to help and responded to her with sympathy
01:26:44
compassion and a solution instead of literally rolling their eyes at her or laughing at her
01:26:50
Mac obviously fired the gun that ended Betty's life but when all was said and done it's really hard to say who should
01:26:57
take all the responsibility for her murder yeah because I don't think it's just Mac alone no I don't think so
01:27:02
either I think where she lived is responsible yeah I think her home life was responsible I think
01:27:10
teachers were responsible students were I think it was a systematic failure on every level exactly I think everybody
01:27:17
failed her and this is quite possibly the saddest case I have ever personally covered that is unbelievably tragic
01:27:26
isn't it and I had never heard of this no I had never heard of it Dave brought it to my attention so shout out to
01:27:31
freaking Dave shout out to [ __ ] Dave is amazing this story I I can't believe I've never heard of that story I know me
01:27:37
either truly wild it's so sad I feel like we're gonna be talking about this really I know poor Betty yeah so guys
01:27:45
um that was really heavy yeah obviously so we're gonna be back with listener tales in a couple days please go do
01:27:51
something that makes you happy and if you are struggling right now please know that there are people out there that you
01:27:57
can talk to and it's gonna get better you talk to anybody like someone will help you someone is around that will
01:28:04
care about you exactly um and yeah that is the case of Betty Williams it's also known again as the
01:28:11
kiss and kill murder which is so [ __ ] up yeah um but we love you and we hope you keep
01:28:16
listening and we hope you keep it weird I don't think I need one to close this out you don't I think you all know not
01:28:24
to keep it as weird as any of that it'll get better everyone bye [Music] foreign
01:28:36
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