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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is [Music] morbid this is a special morbid shut up
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I was going to say that I was literally say this is a special edition of morbid because we've got a guest today we have
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director Christopher casselle on he's going to be talking to us about uh his new documentary on peacock it's called
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pathological the lies of yur in bander salute it is such a great documentary like if you like true crime
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documentaries you're going to enjoy this yeah it's wild it gives you some very interesting points of views and we just
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covered the Natalie Holloway case on morbid I believe it's the last episode it should be the last before this so
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after listening to that this is kind of a perfect little companion because you get to hear a little more behind the
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scenes yeah um going deeper our our our guy Chris there he talked to a lot of like the major players in this case he
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talked to people outside of it it's interesting he he has a he has a unique point of view on the whole thing I think
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he does definitely yeah and he was really really open with like giving us a ton of information and stuff it it was a
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really fun conversation yeah it was definitely a lot of fun so here you go enjoy all right so hello Chris how are
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you I'm doing really well thanks for having me of course thank you for coming on we are talking about pathological the
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lies of yur in Vander slute today it premiered on peacock and it was a really entertaining documentary it was awesome
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thank you and I think one of the first questions I wanted to ask you is I actually noticed that this is one of the
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first true crime documentaries that you've done is that right um it's I would say the third so yeah I did um two
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series for ID that I directed um okay nothing super recent one was in 2019 called Primal Instinct and then the
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other was way back in 2011 called red Brum okay nice so what Drew you into the Natalie
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Holloway case specifically and what would you say the main goal of making this specific documentary was um well I
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remember you know as does everybody you know um who's I guess any older than 20 everybody remembers this Natalie
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Holloway case um and uh you know it was always sort of fascinating and tragic and um you know I sort of just kept tabs
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on it over the years the timing of this seemed you know it seemed appropriate because this is really most likely the
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end of the line for the story of Juran you know um I don't think there'll be another chapter at least related to
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Natalie you never know right um but it seemed like the right time to look back and do a pretty exhaustive and
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comprehensive look at you know all sides of the case but not only the Natalie case but the case in Peru with Stephanie
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Flores and then the strange and disturbing connection between the two which really leads into that extortion
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uh trial that he faced in the states last year right which you know just kind of connects the two cases in this weird
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and surprising way so yeah I mean it just felt like the right time it's a fascinating character this well you can
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call him a character uron you know it's just such a I I guess a textbook psychopath really 100% yeah yeah but
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just somebody who it's just fascinating that somebody can be that cold you know and I kind of want to try to get beneath
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the surface of that as much as I could I feel like the documentary did a good job
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of pointing out the fact that one he definitely is a psychopath and all the reasons why he is and the the
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characteristics behind that yeah and it and it gave a lot more too because we were talking about this cuz we just
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covered the case on the show The Natalie hallay case at least and we were talking
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about how when it was going on in real time it became such like a convoluted kind of coverage of the case that it was
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you weren't really getting coverage of the case anymore you were getting like these wild like back and forths and
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these weird interviews that he was doing and like I remember watching it being like but what's happening like what's
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going on who this guy so many interviews and I it's like nobody knew it was going
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on we just knew like the kind of like sensationalistic way that it was being shown and I feel like the documentary
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really like honed in on what we all wanted to know what was going on and who he is and why like how all this happened
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yeah and I never realized until I did the film how many different versions of the Natalie story he told um I think in
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the end we counted about 12 um that were very I was trying to count them as I was
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going through yeah it's on him and it almost seems like it was part of a strategy and I don't know if it was
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initially a conscious strategy on his part or not but just to further muddy The Waters by just telling all these
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different stories and with this confidence that he had that the body wouldn't be found you know and so
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exactly he figured you know there's nothing that really gonna do to him without the body so he's just gonna he
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almost seemed like he was having fun with it all yeah it seemed like he was trying to prove something like he was
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kind of trying to prove like I can change this story a 100 times and nothing's going to happen to me and
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you're all just going to have to listen to it I'm going to send people on Wild Goose chases and I can do it cuz I'm
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uran going to find it the scary part is how long it worked for him doing that yeah yeah it's crazy and you know you
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can just see almost the sort of like devilish Glee that he takes as he's in these interviews and sort of telling all
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these different you know Tall Tales absolutely and then as we go into you know he figures out how to profit off of
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them and it sort of becomes the way he makes his living exactly so gross so just yeah it's just sick by way he's
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smirks through them really like turns your stomach does but like we just touched on I mean the details of the
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Natalie Hollow Holloway case are so well known especially given the way that it captivated the nation and the way it was
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like parlayed in the media but in your documentary I thought it was a really great balance of information with
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Natalie's story and with Stephanie's story which I do feel like sometimes gets lost in retelling of these cases
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did you know from the start going into this that you wanted to tell the story side by side kind of going through the
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timeline with both girls like you did I don't know EX at the very beginning if I
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knew that but I figured it out pretty quickly when I looked at the symmetry of the dates and they were five years apart
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like to the day which is just wild to the day and a lot of those like you know so there's the day they both disappeared
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and then the several days after that in both years 2005 and 2010 that have these
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striking parallels and it just seemed like that would be a good way to interweave them
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and then to see the similarities you know in his kind of actions and just in these scenarios that happen so so far
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apart so the other thing is you know I didn't want to only tell the Natalie story up front and grow chronologically
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because I feel like the Peru story is the one that people are less familiar with and I wanted to inject pieces of
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that early on so that you know we could keep people who felt like they already knew everything about Natalie right you
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know and so it it made sense to interweave them definitely is that why you made the decision to start with
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juran's ex Eva to kind of bring in new people who maybe didn't know that part of the story yeah I mean that was the
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other that was the other really cool kind of coup for us really I mean her story is crazy she's she's like
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officially on the run from the law she was really hard to find she's like you know by Design she doesn't want to be
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found and she's somebody nobody had ever heard from this was the first interview
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she'd ever done and so we wanted to Showcase that right up front and you know let people know
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you're going to learn something new here even if you followed every single piece
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of the case for 18 years you know you're you're going to find out some new things
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definitely and I think Eva is a good representation of how he just victimizes women like constantly and one of the
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things that I learned watching the documentary was that he actually has quite a history of being violent or
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predatory with women and you did touch on that in the documentary can you kind of expand on that a little bit sure yeah
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I mean there's we can kind of only go by the reports of people who well two two of our best sources were the authors of
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a book called portrait of a monster who did a lot of research spent a lot of time in Aruba talking to people off the
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record on the record you know juran's Inner Circle there his family is very tough to crack so it took some detective
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work to put together the pieces of his childhood but what we were able to find was that you know he had this violent
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streak and this sort of angry streak from a pretty early age and you know by the time Natalie came along he was 17
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but he had this whole Mo down he already had a lot of experience getting into the
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casinos because he looked older he he had figured out how to kind of woo these tourists that would come in these you
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know and so many Teenage American tourists were coming down particularly back then it's changed actually since
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Natalie but so he had a whole like just a whole kind of approach that you know he'd used on girls before Natalie and
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also on local girls so there were several that had filed complaints against him prior to
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Natalie's disappearance that hadn't quite been investigated yet and then in the shadow of all this media that
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erupted on the island after Natalie disappeared they all kind of shrunk away and just decided they didn't want to
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talk and so it seems that there was already a well-established pattern of sexual abuse and violence in his history
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even before the point that you know Natalie disappeared it is crazy how all that kind of got overshadowed or covered
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up and I think part of that has to do with like you said their family history is very hard to uncover and kind of
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going into that I think the relationship with Vander stron the lead investigator
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he had close ties with juran's Dad can you tell us a little bit more about that and what that kind of looks like sure
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they were both from the Netherlands Aruba is a province or a um you know it's under the the Netherlands you
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control or umbrella and so there are a lot of Dutch who come over and work in the government um work you know in in
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kind of the legal trade in Aruba and both Vander stron and paulus vandersloot were among those they had come over they
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had been friends in the Netherlands they came over I think when yuran was four or
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paus did I don't know when vender shoton got there but they apparently were so close that Vander stron was Yan's
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Godfather so clearly they're um you know kind of an inside connection between the family
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and law enforcement and quite likely you know if not a spoken effort an unspoken
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effort between the two men to you know try to sweep this under the rug definitely and do you think because
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obviously and we see it in your in your film when paus dies that's when urine really starts to kind of spiral out of
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control do you feel like that was a pivotal shift in how everything played out in the rest of this case these two
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cases yeah I think it definitely was so I mean not to say that yuran went from a
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you know Saint to a sinner at this point he was already you know he was already kind of well established as you know
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being kind of a bad guy but after his father dies you know it's interesting we talk about at the funeral in the
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Netherlands he yuran throws himself on the casket he makes a big show of saying this is all my fault you know thinking
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that the stress of the case which is quite probably probably right that the stress of the case is what caused PA's
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heart attack and so whether yuran really deeply feels this remorse and this personal responsibility or not is in
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impossible to say but you know certainly he made a big show of it and so he then
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goes back to Aruba to you know ostensibly take care of his mother help his mother through this hard time but no
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sooner is he back there than he starts emailing Beth Holloway's lawyer Beth is Natalie's mother and uh with this
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proposal to basically try to profit off of his knowledge of natal where Natalie is and profit off of Beth's
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vulnerability and her desire for answers and so that's such a dark I mean even for somebody like him to to then decide
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not only to end someone's life uh and not admit it but then go back to the mother of that person and shake her down
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for money in exchange for answers is just kind of a new level of diabolical and so this starts to happen right after
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his father's death and then within two weeks of you know him kind of striking this deal which we can go into deeper
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detail if you like about definitely he's up he flies off to Peru and you know and
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then goes on to murder another girl so yeah it seems like you know you could definitely point to this uh to the death
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of his father as being a really significant turning point for him 100% And I felt so bad for Beth's lawyer one
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of the parts in the documentary is that he feels like he has blood on his hands because of this whole extortion thing
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that it yeah it did somewhat fund his trip to Peru but how was he to know that that was going to happen you know yeah
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and you know he he really expected that once the FBI um because the FBI was involved in this and so was the Aruban
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police or investigators and he didn't think he thought by the time he left the island uh he being John Kelly Beth's
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lawyer that Juran would have been arrested and picked up for basically fabricating this whole story that that
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he told John when he was there which they captured on audio tape and videotape and so he had no expectation
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that Juran was going to have time to spend this money he thought you know he was it was like a one-way ticket to jail
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and then you know and that would be it but um they didn't pick him up and we're we're not and we talk about this like we
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don't know why we don't know why the FBI didn't pick him up at that point or the
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reuin authorities and he was able to skip town there's so many points in the story where you're like how is he
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continuing to get away with these things and especially with the FBI's involvement it's really mindboggling
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that he was able to continue just to go on and do what he did and it was like that watching it unfold too in real time
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cuz I remember there are so many times during this case where we were all like this is it they're going to find Natalie
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they're finally going to arrest this guy like everyone knew we were all just waiting for it and I just remember all
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the time thinking like why aren't they arresting like what is going on like why is this taking so long it's wild it is
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wild and but the weird thing is too they did arrest him in Aruba and they held him for I think 90 days and they
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interrogated him and they flew in these special Dutch investigators to like run these brutal interrogations and he just
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never gave them anything so that led some people to think well maybe he is innocent because he's he hasn't fessed
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up and he's only 17 like how could he not crack Under Pressure he's a hard 17 yeah he was no kidding but you know if
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you have you know as we talk about in the film some of these characteristics of psychopathy you know a lack of
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remorse or or real feeling of any kind it's probably a lot easier to kind of resist some of those typical
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interrogation tactics for sure definitely he really is like you said a tough 17 and like a character yeah going
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into making this film I did read that you did try to reach out to get some kind of comment from him right yes I
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sent him a through his uh public defender in Alabama I sent a letter and I never got a response but I think were
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pretty much they had a prettyy strict embargo on him talking to anybody while he was in the states definitely how do
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you think that would have changed the film do you think it would have changed the film in any way um it certainly
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would have yeah I mean I would have been compelled to kind of make his point of view you know a primary part of the
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story and I'm almost you know you always kind of want to hear from the protagonist but you know in a way I'm
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almost glad that we didn't get him I I think I am glad because he would just spin so many lies that you
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know we wouldn't get any closer to the truth we'd probably be further from it and I age I think it was actually better
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that we were able to look at him from different points of view from you know more objective you know and kind of more
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sane points of view and not be clouded by the all the lies that he would tell and you know he's also as Psychopaths
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usually are very good at elicit eliciting sympathy and and empathy and you know he certainly would have tried
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that with us I'm sure and may have left more of the audience feeling sympathetic
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for him than I think he would deserve so oh I think that would be awful I completely agree I agree I wondered how
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you felt about that but I definitely agree with you that I think it it makes it better that he wasn't he didn't have
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a voice in necessarily he's had enough of a voice and you know we do include a lot of interview Clips with him over the
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years um but really in the context of showing that you know this was all a game for him and you know that it was a
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game of profit it was just you know just one lie after another and you can kind of see that pretty clearly when you
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intercut all these different interviews he did definitely you know over the years was there anything that you
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learned along the way that came as a shock to you or anything you didn't know previously about the case and making the
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film that you learned yeah I mean the biggest thing for me was just this connection between the two cases and the
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fact that had Beth Holloway not paid him $25,000 in exchange for well we should go deeper into exactly why she did that
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but you know essentially she paid him $225,000 for answers about what happened to Natalie and he went ended up using
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that money pretty much directly to go to Peru and kill this other and ends up killing this other girl and so you do
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have to ask like would that have happened had the extortion scheme not happened and you as as her lawyer said
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he feels he has blood on his hands and Beth of course felt awful about it but you know the fact that there was this
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direct connection was you know shocking and just so preventable you would think in hindsight you know absolutely so yeah
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that that for me was the biggest like kind of wow moment yeah that was the biggest thing for me watching it just
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seeing like you said in the beginning how their stories just parallel so much with each other and even how the
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family's experiences parallel with each other like Beth showing up to the island
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wanting answers immediately Stephanie's father going out right away looking for her car finding it in the CD area like
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yeah the parallels are awful and the family's experiences are so intertwined yeah yeah absolutely another interesting
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thing was the different perspectives on the case and on and the the huge difference in willingness to participate
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that we found between Peru and Aruba I wondered about that yeah yeah in Peru we every door was opened you know because I
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think you know just on its face it's a totally different story in Peru they got their man they convicted him they put
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him in jail the body was found it was open and shut there's nothing really to hide or regret so you know everyone who
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was involved in the case from the lead interrogator to the drivers who drove the getaway car unknowingly to his
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girlfriend agreed to participate in Aruba it was a very different story a lot of the people
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we spoke with that had the closest connection to the case um that are still there literally told us off the Record
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like I'll get death threats if I talk to you like wow people here do not want the
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media do not want this in the media anymore they they threaten people who speak about it and so there's you know a
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very concerted effort in rubet to just make this go away still 18 years later definitely and so nobody wants to talk
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you know so that that kind of complicated it a little bit but thankfully there there's been so much
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news coverage of this over the years in Aruba um and such a deep archive to draw
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from that that wasn't really a huge issue definitely but it would have been nice to get a a few more perspectives
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current perspectives in Aruba who in particular would you have wanted to speak to in Aruba there were a couple of
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lawyers who were really close to the case but more than anything I would have liked to talk to juran's Mother um Anita
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I could see that I could definitely see that she's done a handful of interviews nothing really since that I've seen
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since I believe 2010 when Stephanie disappeared I think that she did one interview after that and I think and
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then she just decided she she couldn't anymore so it's been a long time since she's spoken publicly but that would
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have given us a lot of insight into juran's history and his early years and stuff absolutely but at the same time
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it's you know fully understandable why she doesn't want to talk and you have to feel for her as a mother you know oh
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yeah so uh but we tried yeah it sounds like there's a complicated relationship there because it sounds like in the
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beginning obviously nobody wants to believe that their son is capable of that but then to find out that he I mean
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he did get convicted of Stephanie's murder and it's very cut and dry that he did it
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she has to accept that and that must be awful and you can see it her kind of evolving impression of the case and of
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Juran in her interviews where in the early ones in 2005 she's defending him tooth and nail and saying you know he's
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an honest boy she says he's very loving you know why would anybody you know who has all basically the blessings that he
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has want to do something like this it just doesn't make any sense and then after Stephanie's death in 2010
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you know she's definitely uh You Can Tell She's just rethinking everything about him and she still loves him
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obviously but you know she's you could just you can tell she's angry and and sad and frustrated and so it's you know
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his his actions um affected so many people beyond the two principal victims you know um his own family you know
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obviously Natalie and Stephanie's families but the whole island of Aruba you know um and the economy there um you
00:23:08
know just it had really far-reaching consequences for so many people absolutely I think there's so many
00:23:14
different victims in this and especially yur's mom one of the things you touched
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on in the in the film is that she was actually trying to get him help right before he left for Peru and that that
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sentiment is just haunting the fact that she really wanted him to to get some kind of help to talk to a psychiatrist
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to even it sounded like some kind of like impatient thing even and then he just disappeared yeah yeah she was going
00:23:36
to send them back to the Netherlands for an impatient you know treatment so and I
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know he had seen psychologists through the years we don't have great details on those but we know that before Natalie
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disappeared he had been seeing one so it was no secret in the family that he needed help but you have to be receptive
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to the help and you know knowledge that you need it in order for it to work so and as a mother your first thing is
00:24:04
always going to be like no of course not my child like sure they may need a little bit of extra help but no way
00:24:10
could they have done this awful thing that I can't even fathom but I imagine when the when you know the murder of
00:24:16
Stephanie happened I'm sure it was like I don't think he's being caught up in these two things accidentally like that
00:24:23
realization was probably really hard to hit that second one because it's like I don't think it's a coincidence that my
00:24:30
son is just being placed in these two awful cases yeah with nothing connected to it so you know that was probably the
00:24:38
thing that was like that you have to kind of face it at that point yeah that must have so hard even after he killed
00:24:46
Stephanie he called home to his mother and his mother had heard that he they were looking for him in Peru and she
00:24:53
said you should turn yourself in and and he gave her a whole story about how he didn't he he actually was like what do
00:24:59
you mean she's dead oh my God you know and he said well when I left she was alive but there were these two Shady
00:25:06
cops that were of course you know blah blah blah it's just you know it just never ends it's always interesting he
00:25:12
tries to pin it on two other men always and there always stories that sound like
00:25:16
they're from like you know like crime novels or something like I'm like you're just making things up like it's not even
00:25:22
probable it's really not sad story you know all around truly absolutely with that being said what do you think about
00:25:29
the latest confession well I I feel sort of like you know as people will see John
00:25:36
Kelly and Matt Holloway Natalie's brother feel which is not that it's not the whole truth that's how I feel I
00:25:43
agree yeah I mean the fundamental truth that he killed her is there and he has never said that outright before but I
00:25:50
think that's where the truth ends so the details of it include that he um well I
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mean it's just so graphic to even think about but that he bashed her head in with a cinder block that he had found
00:26:02
laying on the beach so how come a bloody cinder block was never found you know that would be a pretty easy thing to
00:26:08
that' be a hard thing to dispose of and an easy thing to find yeah and then the idea that he just waited into the water
00:26:17
with her and just kind of pushed her off from you know he went in wayist Steep and just pushed her off so everybody
00:26:23
I've spoken with since this came out in Aruba because I you know I have had a lot of conversations off the Record
00:26:29
they're just like you know there's with the currents there that's just not how it would work he would just wash right
00:26:34
back in right so that's just BS so then you have to wonder so in that way the story isn't fully over you know
00:26:44
because we still don't we still don't know what happened aside from the fact that he
00:26:49
killed her so the mystery continues on some level it does I do wonder if there's some truth in each part of the
00:26:58
different stories that he's told because at one point somebody came with a boat and they they put her on the boat and
00:27:04
then they they dropped her off of the boat even saying that is so awful but I I have to wonder if there's little
00:27:08
truths in each variation yes and one of the people we interviewed Michelle cinsky who was an NBC reporter who
00:27:16
covered the story for years said I don't know if it was on camera or off but she
00:27:20
said to me the one common denominator that you find in almost all of his stories is some sort of blunt force head
00:27:27
trauma yeah so from the very first story when he said he dropped her off at the Holiday Inn after they'd been out and
00:27:35
she fell out of the she tripped car and hit her head on the ground um uh there was one story once that he told about he
00:27:43
brought her to a friend's house and she was doing cocaine on the balcony and she
00:27:47
fell off the balcony and you know fell on her head and died um you know so there's just been all these iterations
00:27:54
of her having some sort of head trauma and so and the block just being the latest of those so you know it's
00:28:02
certainly more likely than not that that was an element in her death because it's
00:28:07
almost like he's prepared like I think most of him believes she'll never be found and he believes he's he's taking
00:28:14
care of it he's so confident in himself classic but I think like part of him is also covering for when she is found like
00:28:23
that's he's like he's keeping that element the same kind of thing so you know like so whenever she was found it
00:28:30
would have that element in it especially if it's like she fell it was an accident
00:28:35
she banged her head if she found and she banged her head he told you it was an accident and at least this one he's
00:28:41
saying he did it but yeah it feels like before it might have been like covering for if she was found that I already said
00:28:47
it was an accident I told you she had her head yeah I haven't thought about it like that but yeah that's probably true
00:28:53
I think now where is she cuz were you a little worried though she would be found
00:28:59
and it's like and if you were a little worried she would be found and possibly found well enough that we could tell she
00:29:05
had head trauma where is she because I don't think she's in the ocean if that's the case it makes you think when you
00:29:10
start to reflect on all the different stories he has told your mind just starts to spin because you got to
00:29:15
believe there's something within each one yeah absolutely I mean that's the key common denominator there then
00:29:20
there's the dad who creeps into a couple of the stories and who so many people still believe was complicit in the death
00:29:27
and in the cover up so you know that that's a whole thing in itself so that's an interesting part
00:29:34
what are your thoughts on that if you if you want to share yeah I mean well it's
00:29:38
interesting he never implicates his father until right after his father's death and suddenly he's saying you know
00:29:44
my dad disposed of the body so which is cold to begin with like yeah you know um
00:29:51
particularly if it's not true it's like your dad just died and now you're gonna you're pinning it on I'm hearing his
00:29:56
name yeah crazy but but I don't know I I mean I I certainly can see a scenario where he was involved but I can't go so
00:30:04
far as to say he definitely was and you know if he if he wasn't then you know I just I feel awful for his family but uh
00:30:14
you know it's and the other thing that's interesting is that this happened when juran's mother was back in the
00:30:20
Netherlands that she wasn't home and so I didn't realize that yeah and so his dad was the only parent around and his
00:30:28
dad interesting literally would take him to casinos and drink with him and gamble
00:30:32
him so I don't think he was like you know he certainly wasn't uh the typical relationship he was he was a a friend
00:30:41
not a parent at that point at least and so certainly it's possible you know as the film shows uh Natalie's brother is
00:30:52
pretty confident that he was involved we spoke to a lawyer on the island we did interview one who was involved in the
00:30:58
case and you know she said without saying that he was involved she definitely seemed very confident in that
00:31:05
and that that made me start to think even more yeah and you do have to wonder somebody else made the point that
00:31:11
Natalie was never found whereas when he killed Stephanie and he didn't have his father and he didn't have any help with
00:31:17
him he just left the her in the room a complete mess there was no forethought of like how can I cover this up there
00:31:26
was no attempt to cover it up he just ran yeah that's the part that gets me yeah whereas with Natalie um you
00:31:33
know we still don't know what happened to her and you do have to wonder was there someone a little smarter a little
00:31:40
more grownup that you know stepped in and helped him cover this up because Stephanie's you know the Stephanie
00:31:48
incident certainly demonstrates that he doesn't really have that capacity himself that's really interesting yeah
00:31:55
as much as as much as the two cases parallel there are are really marked differences in the fact that he just
00:32:00
leaves her and then goes on the run and then also with the way he confesses when
00:32:04
he's caught he tells he does tell a weird story where he was set up and yada yada but you play the clip in your film
00:32:11
of him confessing and he's so matter of fact so nonchalant about it what do you think that was where we got so many
00:32:18
stories with Natalie but with Stephanie it was just he finally caved and said yes I did this and it didn't take
00:32:24
however many years yeah well I think a couple of things he didn't crack until they promised him
00:32:31
they would send him back to Aruba and they basically lied to him to get him to stop
00:32:37
lying so he thought like if I tell them then they'll let me go back to Aruba which is just silly that he could even
00:32:44
think that that would happen but at any rate there's that and then there's the fact that they had her body they had his
00:32:52
shirt that was all bloody that he had left in the room um just so much evidence that he killed her that they
00:33:01
confronted him with and you know what are you going to do at that point yeah yeah you kind of have to own up yeah so
00:33:08
I I don't know I mean I I I wonder if by that point he just felt like he would figure out a way out you know even if he
00:33:15
told them you know Point Blank I did it that he'd find a way right and uh this time he wasn't able to and it's crazy
00:33:23
that like some of the worst most diabolical Killers fall for like the stupidest things like it reminds me of
00:33:29
like BTK with like if I send you this floppy disc can you trace it and they were like no not at all don't worry
00:33:34
about it and he was like cool and immediately that's what catches him it's the same thing it's like you'll send me
00:33:40
back to Aruba if I said I did this and they're like totally and he's like all right here you go like that's all it
00:33:45
takes it's true right it's crazy right well you want to find some solace in the fact that he is in prison that I mean
00:33:53
the sentence is what 28 years is that right I think it was 28 but it was then brought up to 35 because he was
00:34:01
convicted of dealing cocaine in the prison right what you explore that in the film that's a whole story in and of
00:34:06
itself but so you want to find that Solace that he is in prison but you you do kind of touch on the film that the
00:34:13
Peruvian prison system is is a little bit different than what we would expect here in America they get to have
00:34:18
visitors they I mean he got married he had a child while in prison he ended up with another girlfriend did you can you
00:34:25
tell us a little bit about all that yeah Yeah we actually filmed it the first present he was in and you know it's not
00:34:31
a place that you'd want to go like on your honeymoon by any means but um it's uh it's certainly different I mean
00:34:39
there's a lot of rough characters there but they do have kind of a lot of freedom to roam about during the day you
00:34:47
know there were a lot of people there meeting with family and lawyers and stuff and people bringing them things
00:34:52
and they're just sitting at like open air tables almost like you're in a really crappy Starbucks
00:34:58
um and yeah they have they're allowed most prisoners are allowed conjugal visits they're allowed a lot of visitors
00:35:06
and I guess the philosophy is like just keep them calm you know keep them as content as possible so they don't Riot
00:35:12
you know yeah so yeah and then when he came to Alabama to face the charges last year I started to hear that he couldn't
00:35:20
wait to get back to Peru and I believe it you know it's hard to imagine a Peruvian prison being more inviting than
00:35:27
a prison in the United States but you know that seems to have been the case and it's funny we had a sound guy that
00:35:33
worked with us when we did some interviews in Alabama who said his I think it was his
00:35:39
wife's brother or cousin was actually in the same cell block as yuran and would Heckle him all night long every night to
00:35:48
keep him awake that's amazing that's incredible you know so I hope that guy gets paroled early you know but I was
00:35:55
gonna say he's doing a good job there yeah so yeah I mean that he obviously was hated by all the prisoners there
00:36:02
because he's on Natalie's home turf and so he did not enjoy his his time in Alabama by any means oh it's a bum it's
00:36:10
a bummer he couldn't stay there I know I think a lot of people feel that way yeah
00:36:15
yeah well that was the biggest disappointment that came out of this for me when I heard the sentence was running
00:36:20
concurrent which means at the same time it say Peruvian sentence meaning he'll get no additional time it's just
00:36:28
such a disappointment you know um yeah but you know Beth Holloway seems to be at peace with it you know which I guess
00:36:35
in the end is all that matters yeah exactly that's the most important piece she does you see a stark difference
00:36:41
between how Beth feels about it and how Stephanie's father feels about it did you feel that when you were making the
00:36:46
film yeah well he I think he can take some satisfaction and the fact that he's serving time for Stephanie's murder yeah
00:36:55
one thing that was interesting that he told us was that he's taken measures to protect uran in
00:37:02
prison because he doesn't want him to be prematurely killed because he wants that
00:37:06
gave me chills yeah he wants him to serve the sentence and like suffer that's fascinating yeah so and uh he's
00:37:13
very well connected there he actually ran for uh I think some Citywide office in
00:37:18
Lima he he's kind of a famous race car driver um in Peru and uh then he ran this or he still does run this company
00:37:28
that like puts on circuses all over Peru so he's oh wow he he's pretty well connected politically and you know I
00:37:34
think with the police and so he's been able to protect yuron although there was a story that came out within the last
00:37:40
month that yuran got beat up pretty bad oh really yeah yeah do do you know anything about the circumstances around
00:37:46
that I don't but that there was also a story about that right before he came to Alabama uh last year so you know I don't
00:37:54
think he's got a lot of friends in in prison down there as he shouldn't I can't imagine he would
00:37:59
be really great at making friends I think he's good at manipulating people but I think he's among his own kind
00:38:05
there who know what he's doing and know what he's all about yeah yeah absolutely
00:38:10
he's good at making girlfriends though yeah he's very good at that can we talk about that a little bit because that was
00:38:17
a big part of your film that I did not realize one that he was married he got married while in prison he was able to
00:38:23
have a daughter which that's chilling and then also was able to make a girlfriend while he's still married and
00:38:31
he sets her up so do you want to tell us a little bit about that yeah it's just wild that um he you know because they're
00:38:37
allowed visitors in jail some of his cellmates you know would start bringing in like friends of their girlfriends for
00:38:45
him in exchange I'm sure for you know him doing something for them whether it be supplying drugs or money or whatever
00:38:53
but so he starts meeting these girls who come in one of them he he ends up uh marrying and uh you know as you
00:39:00
mentioned he has a daughter with who I'm trying to think how old she is she's probably about nine now I think yeah and
00:39:08
then and she's constantly bringing him things you know so he's getting a lot out of not only the the woman he married
00:39:16
but every girlfriend since um where you know they're constantly bringing stuff in for him and you know so but yeah he's
00:39:23
he's very charming and you know we interviewed the you know the current girlfriend although there's also been a
00:39:30
story that's come out recently that he's got three women now visiting him she's one of them but two other two
00:39:40
others I don't know that the divorce is final but I think it's in process um so yeah and he's just they
00:39:50
they love him like as you see from the girlfriend we interviewed um he gave her a trinket that she showed us she also
00:39:57
brought a painting to the interview that she he had done um you know he sends her
00:40:02
all these letters with hearts and stars she says real charmer you know and just the weirdest thing is that she said you
00:40:11
know she was with him for protection but how is a guy who's behind bars going to
00:40:15
protect you from anything yeah that was rather confusing and as angry as it seemed like she was at him because it
00:40:21
did seem like she was upset about obviously what ultimately ended up happening where he set her up to bring
00:40:26
drugs into the prison it did still seem like she cared for him in showing the trinket and the
00:40:33
keychain that was interesting yeah well what was interesting is that you know she basically said she still loved him
00:40:39
but that she regretted meeting him ever meeting him and it seemed to us when we did the interview that it was over
00:40:46
between them but at that point he was in the states so she may have thought she'd
00:40:49
never see him again and then as soon as he got extra or sent back to Peru uh late last year there was a story in the
00:40:56
Peruvian press that she was again visiting him in prison and now two other women are visiting him as well so I
00:41:02
don't know how she feels about that but uh clearly she didn't cut all ties even though she's now a fugitive because you
00:41:11
know he had her smuggling drugs into the prison and she's a fugitive in Peru right yeah she is so you wonder how
00:41:17
she's even still visiting that's the weird thing you know she she didn't want to tell us uh where she lived she met us
00:41:24
at a certain place in this town and um it was all very hush hush and she said you know she's worried about like if she
00:41:31
gets if she gets uh arrested that what's going to happen to her kids and she's trying to work like under the table to
00:41:37
support them but I didn't get the sense that you know they're knocking down her door like I feel like the proving
00:41:44
authorities have bigger fish to fry and it sounds like that yeah and I I feel like they sort of just stopped trying to
00:41:52
find her um and yeah if she's visiting him in jail again you know you have to wonder how high priority is yeah how
00:42:01
come she's not being arrested or is she going under a different name but you know right I don't know but it's just
00:42:06
weird it's weird and it's it's really scary ultimately how he can manipulate people and the fact that he's going to
00:42:13
be like late 50s early 60s when he gets out of prison it's it's scary to think that everything that happened to Natalie
00:42:20
everything that happened to Stephanie could happen again yeah yeah and Beth Holloway even said before anything
00:42:26
happened to like I want this guy to be arrested apprehended because this is going to happen again she she she knew
00:42:33
what she was talking about yeah although you do wonder if like he gets to that last year or so in prison and
00:42:40
Stephanie's father calls off the security you know that's kind of what fingers crossed on that one because I
00:42:47
could see that happening you know where he just stops protecting him so that that's what I was hoping would happen
00:42:54
yeah I guess we'll have to wait and see but uh yeah so he'll be I think 56 or 57
00:42:59
when he gets out and you know somebody like him a leopard like him doesn't change a spots so he's not going to come
00:43:06
out a reformed man an upstanding citizen no you can see he's doing the same stuff
00:43:12
in prison everything we were just talking about is what he would do on the streets yeah and it's unfortunately
00:43:17
working for him in prison as well to a certain extent so he's not being shown any kind of you know consequences for
00:43:25
his actions yeah still luring women in he's still getting things y like he's not it's not it's not on a good path so
00:43:34
far I wonder if that would have differed had he served prison time in the states
00:43:39
quite possibly it wouldn't have been you know a picnic like it seems to be down there no not not at all is there
00:43:46
anything that we haven't touched on that you wanted to touch on talking about your film well you know you know one
00:43:52
thing that struck me is just how raw it all still is maybe it's partly because of the confession that just came out and
00:44:00
the fact that everything was back in the headlines but uh we interviewed as you know you saw in the film Natalie's best
00:44:07
friend Claire Natalie's Brother people even you know that knew Stephanie and all these
00:44:15
years later it just does not get any easier you know it's just clear that these folks were traumatized for life
00:44:22
and um it's just so sad that one person could do that to so many people like you
00:44:26
said it F so many different people yeah it just really there were some hard interviews
00:44:32
you know it was just really emotional and sad and it's too bad that these things happen but um I think it's
00:44:39
important to tell the stories to particularly to like younger women who didn't grow up with the Natalie story
00:44:46
that you know aren't aware of it that are going out all the time and absolutely they need to be careful you
00:44:52
know that these guys are out there absolutely it's it's a cautionary Tale on its own right really is yeah yeah so
00:44:59
I mean that's what I took from it uran is not the only urine no absolutely not unfortunately so we have to always be on
00:45:07
our guard absolutely you know and last question wrapping things up here what is the main thing that you want people to
00:45:14
feel or reflect on after they finish the documentary well I hope it was a worthy
00:45:18
tribute to the two girls that died and to their families and everything they've been through and as you say you know a
00:45:24
cautionary tale uh we can prevent things like this from happening in the future just by being more aware of um
00:45:31
psychopathy and Psychopaths and how they operate and uh yeah so I mean that's kind of it it's uh you know it's just
00:45:39
it's just one of those stories that you know when I first got into it I didn't realize how many layers there were to it
00:45:44
but yeah a really compelling story to tell but it takes a lot out of you so that's part of why I don't do True Crime
00:45:51
all the time is because you know I well you know I think some folks can well you
00:45:57
guys have a podcast about it right so you're you're able to kind of live with it all the time I I time hard it's hard
00:46:03
we even we do True Crime and paranormal and sometimes after a couple of cases like this we have to break and go to
00:46:10
something paranormal because it's it it affects you a lot less you yeah we'll break into like some you know haunted
00:46:16
hotel or we'll talk about like some like weird history or something like that just to kind of cuz it does it like sits
00:46:23
with you and it starts leeching into other parts of your life and you're like okay to take a minute did you do
00:46:28
anything after this to kind of self-care after going through all of that um I jumped right onto another project
00:46:34
actually sort of simultaneous to this actually which is not true crime but it's about survivors of hurricane Ian in
00:46:41
Florida oh interesting and uh well not everyone survives so there's some tragedy to it but there's also some hope
00:46:49
and some strength and you know really good people that you know I got to meet and interview so was in some ways
00:46:58
therapeutic I guess I could definitely see that when's that going to be coming out yeah uh you know it's interesting
00:47:03
I'm not sure it it was supposed to be on this month but now uh it's actually been
00:47:08
so well received internally that they may hold it back until and do a series and make this the first episode of a
00:47:14
series in which case it may not air till next year so oh that's great that's awesome though congratulations yeah yeah
00:47:20
that's I'm not sure about it yet but yeah it really turned out well and it was a good way to step away from the
00:47:27
Dark World of yuran vandero something that well in some ways is equally dark but in a different way right but it was
00:47:36
caused by Mother Nature not by a psychopath so yeah little bit different yeah yeah so um but yeah this
00:47:44
has been a fun conversation so thanks for having me highlighting the the film and hope everybody gets to see it on
00:47:50
peacock absolutely 100% and like you said you wanted it to be a tribute to the families I think you did a great job
00:47:56
I I really enjoyed it yeah I think it was awesome and I think you did a really good job showing both stories like you
00:48:02
said you wanted to so hats off to you yeah thanks thanks and it was great to was great to have their participation
00:48:09
you know their kind of blessing so that meant a lot definitely I can only imagine thank you so much for talking
00:48:16
with us yeah thank you so much was really great and everybody go check out pathological the lies of yuran Vanderloo
00:48:22
you are in for a wild ride if you haven't seen it do it yeah that's that's for sure yeah all right well thanks
00:48:28
appreciate it it's fun thank you guys that was amazing that went so well I always get so nervous before interviews
00:48:36
I know I do too especially like you and I will usually switch off like who's going to take lead on it and when it's
00:48:42
one of our turn to take lead where the other one is like you got this you're like Barbara Walters you're Barbara
00:48:48
Walters I like to I like to now think of myself as Alex Cooper I like that oh there you go she's become the gold
00:48:53
standard she's this generation's Babs yeah it Cooper forever shout out to her you you were amazing thank you you did
00:49:02
really well I just got to give it to you thanks you were just ash can think on her feet when it comes to interview
00:49:07
questions I had to hats off I I had written down some questions in prep like a lot and then we just ended up going
00:49:14
through a lot of them and I was like [ __ ] I have I have a lot more to to come up with on the fly but it it worked out
00:49:21
and he was so great at giving us a lot of information and a lot to like continue to build that's the thing when
00:49:27
you have a good guest it's like it's so easy to cuz then you have more questions
00:49:31
organically you're just like wait a second you're interesting I want to ask you more exactly thank you Chris yeah
00:49:37
thank you to Chris casselle CU you ruled you ruled and everybody go check out peacock's pathological the lies of your
00:49:44
inv Vander salute do it and we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it but not so weird that you don't go
00:49:52
check out that documentary because you'd be a silly fool if you didn't don't have
00:49:56
silly goose behavior and not do that come on [Music]