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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. >> And I'm Elena. >> And this is a very special episode of
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Mobed. [Music] We got so excited during this interview that we forgot to ask our guests to do
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the and I am cuz it was Patricia Cornwell. >> What the [ __ ] I am the So this interview was wild. So cool.
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>> I was floating above us all during this. >> I wish that you guys I we do have sub
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video for so I think we'll be able to post some stuff. Elena was literally like >> I was beaming
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>> floating. >> Yeah, I was beaming. >> Elena has always been a huge fan of Patricia Cornwell. So just it was really
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cool. I just wanted to like sit back and watch it for the most part. I was like there I had a couple questions in there
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that I ended up deleting on our shared doc and just like highlighted and was like go to this one
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>> like just keep going. >> I'm like you got this >> like go. It's true. I I have been a I've
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been a fan of Patricia Cornwell. I mean in case you don't know Patricia Cornwell
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like you got to get on it cuz she's [ __ ] amazing. >> Yeah. Honey, what are you doing?
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>> Um she's sold over 120 million books which is >> damn >> insane. She's an author of nearly 50
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books like and a lot of people know her for the Scarpetta series. There's like almost 30 books in that one.
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>> Wow. >> Um it's an amazing series. It's um follows a medical examiner, K Scarpetta,
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who's just she was my hero growing up. Like that I wanted to be K Scarpetta. >> You kind of are.
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>> I honestly that was the dream. I [ __ ] love her. It's she does like thriller,
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but it's like really um like sciencebased and it's it's got like a little some of her books have some
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horror elements in there. Like she's really good at balancing it all. Um she even in one of them she goes to the
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actual body farm in the book like and she went to the body farm. >> It's so funny. I called the body farm by
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the way. >> I remember you telling me about that. >> Yeah. And I was like because I was
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fascinated by the body farm. So when that came out I was like let's go girls. >> Yeah.
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>> Um but she's amazing. I have been reading her books since I was like 13 or 14. I mean, I started I think her first
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book maybe came out in like 1990. >> Wow. >> I think which I was I didn't read it at
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that point cuz I was five. But >> yeah, >> I was reading it, you know, 10 years later for sure. Like eight years later.
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>> And I've read every single one of them I think and up to like the last I think
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I've missed the last three. I have to catch up on them. >> Yeah. But John buys me anytime a new
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book comes out by Patricia Cornwell, he knows he's going to run out and grab it and get it for me. I have I have a whole
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I mean I have an almost an entire bookshelf dedicated purely to Patricia Cornwall.
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>> I can attest to that. >> She's my girl. >> I remember when I was doing I did a
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paper on Jack the Ripper in like >> freshman year and you gave me Portrait of a Killer to borrow and I That's a
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great book. >> Yes. It's so good because when she gets into something, she [ __ ] gets into
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it. >> Super super informative. >> And I always loved that about her, too. I always felt like she like super
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kindred that way because she seems like someone who just like once they're and she is. She like confirmed that for us
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in the interview. She is that person that just when she gets hyperfocused on something, she's just going to go
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>> learns everything about it >> down the hole. And she was so much fun. You guys are for sure Kindred. There was
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a connection there. >> I love >> I said I said I love watching this. >> I love it.
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>> It was great. >> We became best friends during this interview. We're besties for life. Me
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and Patricia. >> Yeah. In about 5 seconds, you'll hear us both get uh invited to our home.
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>> Hell yeah. And I intend to do it. Patricia, get ready. >> See you there, brother.
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>> This interview was awesome. We hope you guys love it. It was really interesting.
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She's a fascinating lady and just another [ __ ] amazing author that I got to talk to because of you guys. So,
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>> oh yeah. So, without further ado, >> enjoy. Patricia Cornwell. Uh, so Patricia, thank you so much for
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coming on Morbid. This is massive for me. I'm freaking out inside. So, Patricia, you worked for the office of
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the chief medical examiner for six years in Richmond. Um, >> in your early career in the medical
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examiner's office, what shaped the creation of KC Scarpetta during those years? >> Well, let me tell you a little morbid
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secret that see people think that I happened to be working in the medical examiner's office or shall we just say
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the morg. Um, and that out of that I got ideas for writing books. That's not at all what happened. I when I graduated
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from college back in the stone age um and I was a an English major and I I knew the only thing I seemed to do
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halfway decently was writing. So, I managed to get a menial job at the the newspaper, um, the Charlotte Observer,
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and um, I I worked my way up to being a reporter, and they put me on the police beat. And so that was my first
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introduction to crime, you know, going to homicide scenes and doing this sort of stuff. And and then at that time, I
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was I was married to my former English professor and he wanted to move to Richmond, Virginia to go to seminary.
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And so we I had to leave my journalism job. I won't go into all the boring details, but suffice it to say that at
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one point I thought to myself, what am I going to do with my life? And I knew I was interested in crime and I wanted to
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write books. So I thought I'd put the two together. But the one thing I didn't know about is what happens to the body
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when they whisk it away from the crime scene. I knew it went to a morg somewhere. I knew there were forensic
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pathologists who looked at the body, but back in the this was back in the 1980s,
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um, back in those days, that kind of information wasn't readily available. So, in Richmond,
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I got an appointment to go to the medical examiner's office, and that's where I met Dr. Marcela Fiero, who was
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one of the first, I think, five women forensic pathologists in in the country. Wow. You know,
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>> that's awesome. >> And I mean, how lucky was I? I didn't even know there were women medical
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examiners. and this is the one I meet. And she gave me a tour of the the autopsy suite, you know, the three
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stainless steel tables that are attached to the floor and the huge cooler that she opened and the the filthy smelling,
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dead smelling condensation rolls out like a horror movie and you know, whoosh and you see the body bags in there. And
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so that was my first taste of all this and I went back to do more research and finally I've always I tell everybody
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this if you want to find out things make yourself useful. >> Yeah. >> So I said what do to be helpful here? I
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started doing technical writing and then they became computerized and they and I
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end up taking over their computer system. But I'd go in the morg every morning and I would watch the autopsies
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and I would take the notes for the doctors or I'd hang up bloody clothing. Um, I'd put organs in scales and write
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down the weights and do, you know, I was the pill counter. You know, when your prescription drugs came in, I'm the
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dummy who just gets to one, two, three. I'm afraid he he might have taken a little bit too much of his fentinel.
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I know it's not funny, but um that and you know, but it was all to write murder mysteries. That's why I wanted to learn
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this. It was be and I just was so fascinated. All the forensic labs were upstairs and so I could go up to
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toxicology or fingerprints or back in the day cerology what's now DNA. And that is why my books have so much of
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that kind of detail because I had a six-year full-time education in it and then continue to learn it ever since. So
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my medical examiner experience um is that I I really ended up there six years because every book I wrote was nobody
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wanted. I wrote postmortem was the fourth the fourth attempt. >> That's wild to me. By then I thought it
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was going to be my post-mortem because I was very dejected and unbelievably you know at that age when you're 20s in your
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20s you're it's it's such a hard time because you're trying to figure out who you are
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here for you know do we have a purpose and when I kept failing at what I thought was my only purpose which is to
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write it was a very dark time but but I will tell all of those who everyone who listens to this who gets discouraged.
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The thing about it is if I had gotten my way and my first murder mystery been published, number one, it would have
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ruined my career because it was really not good. >> And two, I would have thought I knew
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enough and I didn't need to be at the medical examiner's office anymore, and I needed to be there a long time to walk
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around in Scarpetta's shoes. >> All right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. >> I love that. That's wild. I still can't
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believe that you had trouble getting published at first. It's >> I wrote it was a book a year. The first
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year I was there was one book called The Stick Doll Murders. And then the second
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one was Murder in the Lost Hund. Oo, that sounds spooky. And then the third one was called The Queen's Pawn. And no,
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no, no. And then an editor said to me, I finally called up the same editor who rejected me three times. You're not
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supposed to do that, by the way. And I said, "I know I'm not supposed to call you on the phone." I said, "But should I
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quit? Just tell me." >> Oh my god. >> Said, "Uh, no, I don't think you should quit." But I said, "Well, what am I
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doing wrong?" And she said, "Well, you work in a medical examiner's office, don't you?" And I said, "Yes, I do now."
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And um she said, "Well, the stuff that you're writing about, is that what you see every day?" And I said, I never see
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any of what I just what I write about. I mean, because I'm writing about buried treasure and archaeology digs that go
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wrong and you know, all the it was sort of like Agatha Christie meets autopsies and it didn't work.
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>> Um, it was a little it was a hybrid. And and she said, and also your best character is this woman medical examiner
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named Dr. Scarpetta. She was a minor character in the first three books. >> And she said, why don't you write it
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from her point of view? I'd like to know what she thinks. I thought, "Oh my god,
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I don't know if I can do that." And if I show people what I really see and I let
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that invade my imagination, I don't know if I can survive it. Cuz now I'm going down every morning and
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seeing horrors on the tables, someone struck by lightning, someone killed by a wild animal, somebody who's been raped
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and murdered. >> I could I mean, I've seen thousands and thousands of cases over the years. and
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and and by that time there were serial murders that were had just started in Richmond.
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>> Oh yeah. >> This was 1987. Uh the southside strangling cases and they were going on they began while I
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was working at the Emmys office and I'm telling you all of us were terrified. >> Yeah.
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>> That's when I bought my first gun and tooking lessons. I put a deadbolt on my
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bedroom door. I was I had got I was divorced at that time so I was living alone and I thought to myself and I
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watched Dr. Fierra worked in these cases. She'd come home, she'd go, she'd get called out in the middle of the
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night and oh here, and here's a terrible story. One of the early victims in the Southside strangling cases, was a woman
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neurosurgeon who was finishing her residency at the Medical College of Virginia, right down the road from the
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Emy's office. This lovely young woman. And here's the weird thing. A year earlier, I'd been over to that medical
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college with Dr. Fiero. was doing a lab, what they call a wet lab where you take
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or in this case brains that have been fixed in formula and I can tell you guys this since you have a show named morbid
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this is your fault your fault that you're getting all this okay we'll take it to she's doing a a brain cutting
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around all the neuropathology students and neurosurgeon residents and there was this one woman in a lab coat
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on the other side of the room young woman with long red hair and and I was feeling so ill at ease cuz I'm this
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stupid person who was an English major. I'm not a med student. I have three books that nobody's wanted and I'm still
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trying and and I was just I don't know. I was having an uncomfortable moment and
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I felt somebody looking at me and I looked across the room and the redheaded woman was staring at me and she smiled
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just this warm like hello, you're fine here. >> That's all it takes sometimes. >> Fine.
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>> That was the woman who was murdered. >> Wow. And when that happened a year later, I rem I've never forgotten her
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looking at me. And I mean, and then I'm looking at her and and crime scene photographs when I'm out with the
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detective. >> That's awful. >> Yes. >> I can't imagine that. >> And so I'm saying to myself, how do I
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write about something like this without actually adding to the problem or celebrating what we should condemn?
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>> And I figured out, you know what? If I'm going to show you the real thing, then
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damn it, I'm gonna tell you the truth. >> Yeah. >> I'm gonna do it through Scarpetta's
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point of view because that is the only way really that I can get away with it >> because she's not celebrating it at all.
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She's trying to fix it. >> She's doing a job. >> She's also not going to lie to you and
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say, "Oh, it didn't hurt very much." >> Nope. >> She's going to say, "This was awful."
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>> Right. >> Um >> that's what I love about her. That's my very long story for how that all
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happened. Now you don't have to read my memoir when it comes back. >> We still will in the spring.
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>> Oh, I'm excited for that. >> That's awesome. I'll definitely read it anyways.
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>> So that's when you may have to come visit me in person. >> Oh, we'll absolutely do that.
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>> We're in. Yeah, >> cuz you're welcome back anytime. I can't wait to hear more about this.
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>> And actually, like I love hearing these stories because I worked as an autopsy
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technician in Boston. >> Yeah. For I think >> five years, actually. Well, that's
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really called in my own my old biz that's called burying the lead. >> Yeah. >> Because I didn't know I was talking to a
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confederate here where we can compare notes. >> Yeah. As soon as I heard you talking
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about like the wet, you know, wet specimens and all the brain cutting. I was like, it was a brain
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>> cut. And you know what? You'll never forget that smell of formalin will. >> No.
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>> And formalhide, which I hate even worse. At least the diluted stuff doesn't. But
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that Oh, terrible. >> Yeah. And you can taste it, too. >> It's awful. like food would taste like
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it later. >> You and so you understand when I write about that when Scarpetta comes home at
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the end of a long day at the morg that she when she goes in the shower or she showers in her office before she goes
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home and appreciates that but she washes up inside her nose. >> Yeah. and gargles because the molecules
00:15:06
of the nasty stuff are are in the air. And when you're smelling it, it's because it's the molecules of lovely
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things called putrifaction among other things >> and that's what you're smelling. It's
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all molecular. And so she >> scrub a dubdubs because you feel you feel I remember when the first started
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smelling that stuff, I would start imagining I smelled it like right when I was getting ready to eat something.
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>> Yes. >> Oh yes. Yep. I was very surprised to I think like one of the first autopsies
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that I was part of, I went to I went to dinner later that night with my husband and the first bite I took, I was like,
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>> "Why do I feel like this smells like what I was just in?" And he was like, "That was horrifying."
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>> It's your memory because it your your sense of smell is really your most powerful
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>> sense. Um >> it blew my mind. my neuros my my my neuroscientist partner Stacy could tell
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you all the reasons why that's the case but that's why smells the olifactory um experience is so powerful and in fact
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you can smell something and it can create that it triggers a memory that will actually make you feel the way you
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did when you smelled it before like I went to um and when I was in I took a tour I went I drove across Austria way
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back in the early 90s and one of the things I wanted to see when I was there was the Mohousen um death camp from the
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concentration camp. I'd read a book about it and I thought >> I I want Scarpetta I want her to see
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this through me. I want to see the reality of of one of these horrible places. And when I was walking through
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one of the barracks where they'd kept these poor um the the Jewish prisoners that they were so merciless to. I
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thought I I smelled the inside of a of a cooler and you know exactly what I'm talking about.
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>> It's a very sink old death so powerfully that I said to the person I was with, I
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have to leave. >> That was all just really a hallucination obviously, >> but it was remembered odor. And you know
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this may sound gross to people but you need to understand why all this is important to human biology. Yeah, we are
00:17:21
programmed to be repelled by things that we should stay away from. >> Absolutely.
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>> So, you know, if the whole colony was wiped out by a plague and you smell that
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in the woods when you're in the primitive age, you rode the other way really fast. That might happen to you.
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>> Yeah. >> Just comes down to survival. >> Absolutely. And >> all of this is all about survival. Our
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fear, >> our wanting to read scary stories is all about our survival instinct. >> Yep. It gets that fight or flight going.
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You worked in a morg then when in my opening scene in sharp force when Scarpetta is working on a floater in the
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autopsy suite some guy poor guy that's been in the river for a while then you know what that's like
00:18:03
>> that's a unique experience for sure that is a very unique experience a very unique smell and a
00:18:10
very unique >> horrible >> way of going about an autopsy it's totally different >> which is crazy and that'll stay with you
00:18:17
that image for sure. >> Well, you know, I was coming, this is a I think a wonderful way to think of it.
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One day when I was working at the medical examiner's office and we had such a case um a man who had been out
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fishing with this his young boy in the James River in Richmond and this was a hot summer day and he and we don't know
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why or nobody knew why, but he ended up going overboard and his body wasn't found for a while. So when it came to
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the our office, it was very, you know, very very decomposed and and it was really really awful. I mean, it would
00:18:52
really kind of it would go through the whole building to be honest with you. >> And so I was in staff meeting and I was
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getting ready to go downstairs with Dr. Fiero to scribe while she did her cases and she was going to do that one cuz she
00:19:06
didn't nothing phased her. we're rid an elevator down. And I said, you know, sometimes I really don't know how you
00:19:14
stand this. I don't know how you do it. And she looked at me and she said, I just try to imagine him before he got
00:19:21
here. And so suddenly I saw this man on a beautiful summer day with his boy fishing, you know, with his baseball cap
00:19:30
and the white sparkling on the water and everything's happy. and he that's what I
00:19:35
tried to think when I was actually looking at what she was doing after that and and I thought that that is how we
00:19:42
should do it because we don't want to objectify human beings. I mean what we leave behind is not pretty but we but if
00:19:49
we were around to see it we would be embarrassed. >> Yeah. >> We say we'd apologize. Sorry I'm such a
00:19:54
mess. >> Yeah. It's so true. And it makes you feel like you have a purpose when you
00:19:58
think of them that way before they got on the table. there's a purpose to the whole thing instead of just meaningless,
00:20:04
you know, clinical way of looking at it. Like when I one of the things I always say when I worked at the morg was it
00:20:11
always like little things would get me during an autopsy like somebody having nail polish on. I was like you didn't
00:20:17
know that that was the nail polish you would be wearing forever like that that was the last time you were going to put
00:20:23
on nail polish or if they had their hair in a braid or something. I was always like wow you just didn't know that that
00:20:28
was your last hairstyle. Like it's >> and I never wanted to cut those hairstyles. I was always careful to not
00:20:34
cut the braid off if I was doing a neuroase. And >> though you have to make it personal. You
00:20:40
can't look at it just dead pan because >> you have to have the ability to have some empathy. And you imagine that
00:20:48
person on the table is if it were your mother or some somebody you deeply care about if it's you.
00:20:55
>> Yeah. And and I and I do one I I'm so lucky that I was around the right kind of people when I was learning all this.
00:21:02
But most of all, Dr. Fiero and that she used to there was one thing she would never tolerate in her autopsy suite. You
00:21:09
so much you show even one iod of disrespect >> towards those cases in there and your
00:21:16
ass is thrown out. She say out to you should be. >> Yeah. Because it keeps you it keeps you
00:21:22
on task to sit there. You have to keep reminding yourself like this is somebody somebody.
00:21:27
>> Mhm. >> So I have to be as >> well. The interesting thing in some cultures there is a belief that when you
00:21:35
die your consciousness, your spirit, whatever you want to call it, hovers around the body for a while. So in in
00:21:42
particular in primitive cultures, they they would not do anything to anybody. They leave them for a while. Even in
00:21:49
Italy, you I think it's you've got to wait about 24 hours before you do an autopsy on somebody. sense.
00:21:54
>> Um, and the and it's because of this of not being sure >> when that transition is being made and
00:22:02
trying to be as respectful as you can. >> Yeah. >> And so >> I always just think don't ever talk
00:22:10
around a dead person. Don't say anything in front of them you wouldn't say if they were still alive and and then
00:22:15
you're safe. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> It's so true. and maybe their ghost won't bother you
00:22:21
as much as as when you it won't creek in the walls and you won't hear someone walking on your floorboard late at
00:22:26
night, you know, feel like they follow you home. [Music] Well, and with all your experience, I
00:22:46
know that sometimes I find myself nitpicking in like pop culture, like books, movies, TV, uh, about crime
00:22:53
scenes or autopsies if they get it wrong. Is are there things that drive you crazy that happen a lot in like pop
00:22:59
culture for autopsies and crime scenes? >> Well, I think one thing is when when somebody acts like they have a bedside
00:23:07
manner in the morg, it's ridiculous. I mean, we're respectful. you know that, but you're not saying, "Oh, now this
00:23:13
won't hurt very much." And and of course, the other thing is now I I understand why TV has to do this. I
00:23:20
mean, cuz they're visual, but like if you you've seen the shows like CSI where they have mirrors on the table so you
00:23:26
can see the dead person's face. Yeah. >> Never. >> Of course, that isn't done. But I I
00:23:31
understand I my attitude is they're translating and making a story that works for their medium and have to make
00:23:39
it palatable. >> And and a lot of what they do, they don't have a whole lot of choice because
00:23:44
of what they're doing. But there are I can't think of anything right off the bat, but there are there are so many
00:23:50
times where I've seen things where I go, you know, you didn't even try to get that right.
00:23:54
>> That's me, too. Those are the ones that >> there's no way somebody would just say
00:23:58
that or that they would do what you just did or I I know when they touch things with no gloves on.
00:24:03
>> Yes. >> That makes me crazy. >> And you know it's or no masks. And why? Because I get it. You don't want the the
00:24:11
actress covering her face all the time. >> Mhm. >> To be honest with you, the way people
00:24:16
are bundled up in Tyveck these days, they really do look like a house under construction all wrapped up. Yes. Um,
00:24:22
and and so that's not a good look if you're a movie star. >> No, it doesn't quite translate.
00:24:28
>> The gloves thing always drives me nuts, though, because I was always like, "No,
00:24:31
you wear like at least like three or four pairs of gloves so you can keep ripping them off the whole time."
00:24:37
>> So funny. >> Well, I remember um one of the early scripts for the Scarpetta movie that
00:24:41
never got made. And by the way, we do have a show that will be out in the spring. But um I I remember that this
00:24:48
the writer had Scarpetta stopping at a in the middle of a a terrible part of town, you know, for a crime scene on her
00:24:55
way home from something else. She goes in, she whips out her her makeup bag, zips it open, gets a pair of tweezers
00:25:02
out, and then goes and collects a piece of evidence with it. >> And I said, "What is it about
00:25:09
understand? >> Where did that come from? Well, she also was driving a a red Tesla electric car
00:25:16
and I thought way back in the day when I thought she not going to take any chance
00:25:20
of that electric car battery going to go dead where she's parked right now. >> Absolutely not. I would never put her
00:25:26
electric >> car that you don't see as much of that anymore though. People um really truly I
00:25:32
know because I'm dealing with screenwriters right now for the Scarpetta show and and they're much more
00:25:38
well-versed in all this the writers are than they used to be. And there's also so much more available.
00:25:44
You can even Google. >> Yeah. So true. >> And I and you know there's so much more
00:25:48
that you can find out for yourself now. >> Oh, definitely. And speaking of the Scarpetta television series, cuz I've
00:25:55
been waiting for so long. Like I started reading your books. I'm 39. I started reading your books when I think I was
00:26:00
like 13 or 14 cuz I was super into it. I read Postmortem first. I went all the way through. My husband will buy me each
00:26:09
new book whenever it comes out. It's like the present he gets me. >> That's very nice. Will you tell him I
00:26:13
thank him for that? >> I will. He'll love that. But I've been waiting for this. I've been really
00:26:17
excited to see it on any screen really. And one thing that made me so excited was hearing that Bobby Canavali is
00:26:24
playing Marino. >> I feel like that is the most perfect casting choice. >> I I I I told everybody I said, "And you
00:26:33
really expect that he and Dr. Scarpetta are not going to have an affair now that
00:26:37
I now that she knows he looks like that. >> Honestly, she she would say to me, um,
00:26:43
well, you didn't tell me he looks like that. The way you describe him in your books, you can see why I didn't have an
00:26:48
affair with him. So, anyway, yes, I think and and I can assure you because I have seen, you know, the eight episodes
00:26:57
um that that you will be seeing next year in the spring and um he's fabulous. I believe
00:27:04
>> in the scenes with him and Nicole Kidman and Jaime Lee Curtis. I mean, it's all
00:27:09
the you couldn't ask for a more powerful cast. They've done a great job. I think
00:27:15
people are going to have fun. I mean, don't expect it to be identical to my books. Uh because it it can't possibly
00:27:21
be um because it's TV. But but the other thing is um if you think about my books
00:27:27
for the most part there are a few that I wrote from what we call the third person
00:27:31
point of view but they're always from Scarpetta's perspective. I mean almost all of them especially the ones now.
00:27:37
>> So if you're only seeing what she's seeing the screenwriters have to create a lot of scenes that aren't in my books
00:27:44
like what happens when Marina goes home and has had a squabble with Dorothy or what's Lucy doing in the guest cottage?
00:27:51
Um, you know, so those things and that's kind of fun because you're not only getting my story, but you're getting
00:27:58
something new. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I hope I hope you and everyone will have lots of fun with it.
00:28:04
>> Oh, I'm sure I will. Yeah, people are so excited for it. >> Very excited. I think we'll have a big
00:28:08
watch party. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Good. >> You mentioned working with screenwriters. Are you able to write on
00:28:13
it at all or have you been able to? >> I haven't done any writing, but I do review all the scripts and
00:28:19
>> Nice. Um, you know, I my my big thing is the techniques and the the science and
00:28:26
>> all that, making sure helping with that as best I can. Um, I've, you know, if
00:28:31
they occasionally they'll ask me to sit in on the writer's room if they have some questions. Um, and also just
00:28:38
because I like to encourage them. I love to encourage a lot of them are very young and um, if that that's at least I
00:28:46
can do at this stage because I know what it feels like. I know what it feels like to get
00:28:51
started. Of course, they're doing a pretty good job getting started since they're on such a major show, but
00:28:57
>> yeah, >> it's not exactly small potatoes to start with when you're writing something for
00:29:01
>> Definitely not. >> Three Oscarinning actors, you know, Jamie and Nicole and um also Ariana
00:29:09
Deose who plays >> Oh my god. >> Oh, awesome. >> Stacked. >> I'm just I just want her to hurry up
00:29:14
sing, >> right? Like, let's go. >> This is an iconic cast. It really is. >> We're so excited. Uh something else
00:29:21
we're obviously so excited for is Sharp Force, which if you're listening to this
00:29:26
uh the day it premieres, it will come out. Sharp Force will come out tomorrow, October 7th. So, while writing Sharp
00:29:32
Force, what was the most bizarre piece of research that you did where you kind of thought if somebody saw this, I'd be
00:29:38
in a lot of trouble? >> Well, that's um truth is if if anybody saw most of what I'm doing, I'd probably
00:29:44
be in trouble. I keep waiting for a knock on my door because of the kind of stuff I
00:29:48
>> I search on the internet. >> How many times can you be asking about this kind of weapon or how long it would
00:29:55
take to kill somebody before somebody decides they better check out your enterprise what's going on in there?
00:30:02
>> But the the hologram part of it, you know, that it was it's that was very creepy to research the notion that that
00:30:12
you can create a hologram. Well, let's just back up and say what is the genesis of this ghosts? You know, we've heard
00:30:21
about ghosts all our life and you know people who have seen them. Maybe you have or you've had a weird experience
00:30:28
that defines defies any sort of explanation. And so I thought, what tech I'm always interested in what technology
00:30:36
could supply an answer or an explanation for things we see that we don't understand, whether it's Bigfoot, a
00:30:42
quote flying saucer, or in this case, a ghost. And so I thought, is there technology that could create ghosts? And
00:30:48
the answer is yes. holographic technology combined with highly highly technical drone technology that you know
00:30:57
can be a flying projector so to speak and and understanding that electromagnetic energy isn't always
00:31:03
light waves it can also be radio waves that can go right through your bedroom wall. So, the idea that you could wake
00:31:10
up in the middle of the night with this horrible phantom creature hovering over your bed looking like something from the
00:31:15
1800s with red glowing eyes and saying, "Death becomes you. Death becomes you. Death becomes you." And creepy music
00:31:22
playing. The idea that that could really happen is true. >> Yeah, it could. >> That's the thing.
00:31:28
>> Closer to it than ever. I know. We really are. >> The hologram can't kill you. However,
00:31:33
this serial killer who uses this for stalking, he does it before he shows up. And so, that was eerie um technology to
00:31:46
be sort of digging into. And the old psychiatric hospital, Mercy Island, >> you know, I love creepy places. Creepy
00:31:53
places are a character. And anyone anyone with the show called Morbid certainly knows that.
00:31:58
>> Oh, yeah. And then of course when she's driving home in the snowy kind of fog and she
00:32:05
hears this weird animal howling coming from the woods on her property and then it turns out when they do voice analysis
00:32:11
the vocalization of it does not seem to belong to any animal on this planet. >> That is horrifying to me.
00:32:18
>> Oh yeah chilling for sure. >> That alone would I love that. I think that is so true.
00:32:24
>> I don't know how she stays in her house. >> I don't either. >> No. Every time I have a scene, I mean,
00:32:29
I'm working on a new one now and and Scarpetta is in her house and it's a horrible thunderstorm and the p and a
00:32:35
transformers blown somewhere. Kaboom and the power goes out and all the security
00:32:41
clamors are are dark and I'm thinking, why are you staying in this place? Get out. Seriously, get out. What are you
00:32:46
doing, girl? Find a nice little condo with a door, man. >> Seriously. >> Maybe like one of the tallest floors you
00:32:52
can get. >> Yeah. Survival instinct. Let's go. >> She's never She's never really scared.
00:32:56
She just takes it in stride. She's always forgetting her gun. >> Yeah. She never runs away, though. She's
00:33:00
never running. >> Oh, rats. I knew I left something behind. And this guy is standing there
00:33:05
in front of the greenhouse. Oh, boy. >> We've all been there. >> Yeah. You know, it happens.
00:33:09
>> And you know what? After like more than 30 years of writing Scarpetta, how are
00:33:14
you able to keep her evolving? Because you really do keep her evolving, but but still maintaining what a badass she is,
00:33:21
like the core of what she is. You know, it's it's really important that I write stories that are set in the real world.
00:33:28
And the real world that we live in now, which is changing at the speed of light.
00:33:32
Yeah. >> And it's a very hard world to set a murder a crime novel in because there's
00:33:38
cameras everywhere. I mean, there's so much technology that if you're not careful, the the book would be one page
00:33:43
long. >> Yeah. It's because we already know who did it, you know. um we we tra that we
00:33:48
we found their signal bouncing off that cell tower and then and then we got you know one cell DNA and figured out who
00:33:55
did whatever. So a lot of people aren't choosing to set thrillers and they they set them in the 80s and the '9s for that
00:34:03
reason. >> I insist on letting Scarpetta in fact making her live in the same world we do
00:34:10
and then and dealing with it accordingly. And so by having that as my focus, you know, I'm going to come up
00:34:16
with a different idea for every book because, you know, if you're just watching what's
00:34:21
going on in society and I have to know what all the latest technologies are, not only to use them, but to defeat
00:34:27
them. So that if I want a scene, you know, for example, if I don't want your phone picked up, no signal, then then I
00:34:36
might have you use a Faraday bag like this. This is a real thing. You put your phone in this and you cannot receive
00:34:44
signals and they will not transmit signals. And that's the kind of technology they use in what are called
00:34:49
skiffs, you know, where you go over top secret information. Um, they use what's called Faraday cages or Faraday bags
00:34:56
that block out all electromagnet magnetic signals. Like if you go to visit some of the various buildings at
00:35:02
the FBI academy in Quantico, um they will take your phone the minute you walk into certain buildings and it gets put
00:35:09
in a metal locker that's basically a Faraday cage because your your phone can be used to spy.
00:35:15
>> Yeah. Oh, absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> With Wi-Fi technology, we're we're open
00:35:19
channels for something to hack into it. And as you know from having worked in a medical examiner's office, the big
00:35:26
threat these days are our phones and people going in and filming and photographing when when they and then
00:35:31
next thing you know it's the bodies all over the internet. And we've seen we've seen that every time there's a huge
00:35:37
case. It's all over the news. >> Oh yeah. It's such a problem and it becomes more and more of a problem as
00:35:42
these phones get like smaller and thinner and have more technology on them and things you can hide. It's crazy.
00:35:50
And it's also now we also have to worry about photographs being posted out there
00:35:55
that aren't even real. They're fake >> and people believe that is the injury somebody had and it's completely made
00:36:01
up. So that these are all these are all part of the modern challenges that Scarpetta
00:36:07
>> lives with. >> But but what I try to do is not get too bogged down in all that because people
00:36:13
don't it's withering after a while and people want >> they want something that makes them
00:36:18
feel. >> Yeah, for sure. Definitely the haunted old hospital where there's a burial
00:36:23
ground where there's suspicion about how some of those people in the asylum died
00:36:27
hundreds of years ago. You know, you want these things that that that really go to our core. Just like when you walk
00:36:34
into Scarpetta's house, you want to smell her wonderful food. You want something good in the kitchen. You want
00:36:40
a lovely bottle of wine or whatever they're going to open. And you know that's I try to make it a rich sensory
00:36:47
experience for you both good and bad. >> You really have too cuz that's one of the things I love about Scarpetta is
00:36:53
that she's like a brilliant cook as well. I love that she has those two parts of her cuz cooking is so creative
00:37:00
and like you know emotional and grounding >> and everybody can be friends when they're eating. Mhm.
00:37:06
>> You know, I I I I've had over the years I've had a lot of people ask me, "Do you
00:37:11
think I mean, does Scarpetta know Dexter?" And if she met Dexter, I mean, would she rat him out? And I said,
00:37:16
"Well, listen, I I believe that he lives near her and I think they get together on foodie night.
00:37:24
>> Barbecues where she does her, you know, her flash dogs and her bourbon honey steaks on the grill and they and they
00:37:32
discuss pasta." And so I don't know if she knows what he does, but I know she knows what he what he eats.
00:37:39
>> Yeah, for sure. Nice little nice little potluck. >> And I think that they're buddies. I'm
00:37:43
sorry, but I think they get along just fine. >> Oh, I love that. That's canon now.
00:37:47
>> That makes a great image in your head. >> She would say, "Well, I know that person
00:37:50
had it coming, but >> but you know, natural causes. >> She saw nothing. >> Is great though."
00:37:58
>> Yeah. So, specifically for Sharp Force, but honestly this can go with really any
00:38:05
of your novels. Were there any scenes you've written that you've thought like, hm, like this might be too far, I should
00:38:11
tone this down, or or when you feel that way, if you have, do you just like lean
00:38:15
further into it? I um I don't feel that way about what I'm what I write these days because I'm really really careful
00:38:23
of it. But there were some books I wrote earlier, particularly when I decided not
00:38:29
to use Scarpetta as the point of view, but to have it more what they call the omnisient point of view, you know, third
00:38:36
person, which means you have to spend time with the killer. >> Yeah. >> It's going to show what the killer's
00:38:42
doing or thinking. And in my book, Book of the Dead, which ironically won one of
00:38:48
the biggest awards of all my books, but but in my but there are things I did in that book that I wouldn't do again. And
00:38:55
I mean, this character, the bad the evil person was into cannibalism, and it was
00:39:00
it was quite graphic. Um, it disturbingly so for me. I mean, I I quit eating at my desk while I was writing
00:39:06
that book. Um, but here's I actually had somebody I won't say who or where, but there was a research facility where I
00:39:14
was offered the they said, "Would you like to um cook some human flesh and see what that smells like?" And I said, "No,
00:39:21
I would not. I do not need I will not go that far for my my research." >> Like, thank you for asking.
00:39:28
>> I mean, I don't know what people think, but I've I've been asked if I wanted to
00:39:32
try the scalpel and do a Y incision. I said, "No, never. That's not for me to do. I am I'm an English maker think too.
00:39:40
>> It's I'm I don't practice on a dead body. No, no, no. That's not I'm just I'm I'm an author. No, that's not for me
00:39:46
to do. You do it and I'll describe what you did. >> Yeah. >> There you go. >> Yeah.
00:39:50
>> Yeah. You're like I can I can observe and still have all that I need to see. >> But it's a good question because
00:39:57
everybody should have certain boundaries. Yeah. And um you know I don't want it's it's an in it's an alarm
00:40:06
system that's built in me and actually I think my books are a little bit more gentle that way than they used to be.
00:40:13
>> Um it will sound crazy but I try to kill people without it hurting too much. >> I love that. I love how
00:40:20
>> even if they're bad even if they're bad I just I just say you know what I'm going to get rid of you. You have to be
00:40:25
done in. But I I'm not going to drag this out. just it won't be too terrible. Just go back to sleep and yeah, you
00:40:31
know, you you'll end up in some other book and you'll be fine. >> Yeah, there you go. We'll dispatch of
00:40:35
you here and we'll see you later. Well, that makes so much sense to me because um I've I've published two books and
00:40:42
they're, you know, serial killer thrillers and they also have a female medical examiner that I kind of like got
00:40:49
from my own experience. Um and I found this a challenge in my own books and I think you're so masterful at this in
00:40:56
particular. I'm curious to know how you manage to maintain such like sharp and that pun intended sharp accuracy
00:41:04
forensically in your books. Like you really keep all of that so accurate and so grounded, but you also you're
00:41:10
welcome. And you also keep that pace though in your books really tight and keep it really thrilling. So I'm just
00:41:17
wondering how you're able to maintain like how do you achieve that? Well, fortunately, because I started out
00:41:24
actually learning from being in the actual environment, like if I wanted to know what the scanning electron
00:41:29
microscope would do with, you know, if if somebody used one of these little things, a post-it you to to lift trace
00:41:37
evidence off of, you know, they're putting it on the hand or whatever, because things will adhere to that very
00:41:43
weak adhesive that then go up to the trace evidence lab, and then you might see something on the scanning electron
00:41:49
microscope is magnifying something a 100 thousand times, maybe even a million times. and and and when you learn about
00:41:56
these technologies and and and what they are and how it works and that for example a scanning electron microscope
00:42:03
on Earth is actually doing something very similar to what the web telescope does out in space where it's not only
00:42:11
defining the morphology the shape of what you're looking at like a a jagged piece of dust might look like an
00:42:17
asteroid when it's magnified that much with the with the microscope but but it's also telling you what something's
00:42:23
made out of, >> you know, it can tell you that an asteroid is made out of platinum. It can
00:42:27
tell you that this fleck of paint also has has traces of of lead. That might mean it's old paint or there's a a
00:42:36
little bit of asbestous >> or that there's many layers of paint, meaning the car was painted over and
00:42:41
over again, multiple times, and that would be a unique identifier if you find the car that hit that person, the hit
00:42:47
and run. See what I mean? Yeah. So if you've learned the fundamentals of these scientific applications, then when you
00:42:55
roll ahead 35 years, then as as long as you keep up with what's actually being used, it's really not changed that much.
00:43:03
You you now have rapid DNA testing where you can put a swab in a little a little
00:43:09
machine basically and in minutes it will give you a DNA profile. >> Well, that was there was no such thing
00:43:15
as that. >> No, definitely not. >> Just getting started. But it it doesn't change the DNA science. It just what
00:43:21
what it tells you is that it's so sensitive now that in some cases it's almost an obstruction because if you can
00:43:29
walk through a room and leave one cell of DNA, one skin cell that's going to give your profile. What if that skin
00:43:36
cell is from eight months ago? >> Oh yeah. >> You're picking up all kinds of stuff.
00:43:41
Yeah. That is actually because it's so sensitive. It's both good and it's bad because it's also picking up all kinds
00:43:48
of things that are interfering with what you're thinking. So, it's just if you learn, you build on what you learn. If
00:43:55
you stop learning, then one day the gap is too big and you can't catch up. So, what I say to everybody is whatever
00:44:01
you're interested in and if you spent a lot of time in your early years getting proficient in it, keep keep up with it.
00:44:07
Yeah. Yeah, cuz you you'll understand all the changes. >> Mhm. >> But you got to know the fundamentals
00:44:13
first. >> That's so true. That is definitely >> you let that gap happen. Like what you
00:44:17
said is totally correct because having to catch up on all that afterwards, you're just going to be
00:44:22
>> completely out of the galaxy with it. >> There's no way. >> Autopsies are they're they're not done
00:44:28
all that differently than they were back in the day when Michelangelo was, you know, doing it to learn more about what
00:44:34
the human body looks like. I mean so um there are tech there are things you can use in modern times like scanning
00:44:41
equipment um you know there the virtual autopsy which is you know done with a CT
00:44:47
scanner like the military uses like the Baltimore medical examiner's office has one of those um but you know for the
00:44:54
most part I think autopsies will just keep being done the way they've been done first of all as you know anybody
00:45:01
that's worked in that system it is not Scarpetta has an unusually amazing budget Mhm. She sure does.
00:45:06
>> She's always complaining about her budget, but whatever she wants, it's somehow magically there because
00:45:11
>> which you need >> cuz I I'm Santa Claus. I don't think you need it. I'll give it to her. You know,
00:45:15
we not only need that kind of microscope, but we need one of these kinds, too. >> It's just another million dollars. No
00:45:22
problem. >> Don't worry about it. That's actually It's funny cuz when when I worked in the
00:45:26
Borg, I was shocked to find out that the things we used for as rippers were just
00:45:31
like hedge clippers from Home Depot. like they were the orange the dirty. Oh, listen. When I was when I worked in the
00:45:38
morg and since the the main the main show was Dr. Fier, the woman who then became the first woman chief uh in
00:45:46
Virginia. Um she would bring in the knitting needles from her her in-laws, the mother and the mother-in-law that
00:45:53
because they all they they they're Italians. They all lived in the same house. She'd bring in the knitting
00:45:57
needles they didn't need anymore. And she used them for bullet probes. So she'd get up,
00:46:03
>> you know, put that here's the entrance. Let's see where that thing Oh, it stops
00:46:06
here. Nope. There. You know, especially in multiple gunshot wounds. Genius. >> You know, it worked fine. Now, you could
00:46:11
buy a bullet probe, >> but >> but for x number hundreds of dollars that >> we when I was doing some research in the
00:46:20
Charleston Medical Examiner's Office in South Carolina, this is this is my idea of having fun with a forensic
00:46:27
pathologist. On the lunch break, we went shopping. We went shopping to a restaurant supply store
00:46:35
>> of huge pots so that when they when they were, you know, when the skeletonized
00:46:40
body stuff, you know, bodies are coming in, when you want to clean the bones, you you boil all this.
00:46:46
>> Well, that takes a very big cauldron. And so, you can't get that in your regular place. So, that my treat my
00:46:54
treat because I was making the big bucks. I take them shopping. I say to heart's
00:47:00
content. Any ladle you want, any big pot, any two cup steel measuring cup. So that when you're seeing how some how
00:47:08
much someone hemorrhaged in their chest cavity, I'm your person. >> You're Santa Claus tall.
00:47:13
>> Look at that. >> Now that's that is morbid Christmas right there. >> That is That is You need to come on
00:47:19
Morbid more. You fit right in. >> You see, nobody's going to like me anymore after hearing this cuz now
00:47:23
they're hearing what a weirdo I am. >> No, you came to the right place. >> I love you more. Our listeners will love
00:47:28
you. >> Our listeners are called weirdos, in fact. >> Exactly. >> Well, you know, it's Well, I'll tell you
00:47:32
the weirdest research I ever did, >> and I don't recommend this for anyone, but I really did want to know how long a
00:47:38
bite mark, if you bit somebody after they're dead, how long does that bite mark, if it's an indentation,
00:47:44
>> how long can you see that before it might fade? Well, I didn't know any dead people that would want me to bite them.
00:47:50
Not that I would be willing, nor did I know any living ones, including me, who might agree to such a thing and wouldn't
00:47:55
be the same cuz I'm going to heal. So, I thought, well, what about a piece of chicken? A dead, you know, raw chicken.
00:48:00
>> Oh, there you go. >> So, that's what I did. I practiced the bite marks with a piece of raw chicken
00:48:05
and and and answered my question and then would very quickly wash my mouth off with the most powerful antiseptic
00:48:10
you can imagine. >> That was ex That's exactly what I was just going to ask. >> That was lawless of you.
00:48:15
>> Anything for the research though, right? If I were to do it again, I don't know
00:48:18
why I didn't just get a pair of dentures or fake teeth. >> Wouldn't that have been smarter?
00:48:23
>> But you know what? You >> see, I'm a little bit slow on the take sometimes. I should have just There were
00:48:27
many ways to simulate that without me putting my own silly little chip chops on it. Horrible
00:48:33
>> disease from raw chicken meat out salmonella. >> All in a day's work, right? >> Well, what'd you find out?
00:48:39
>> I found out that they would fade a little bit and that if someone bites a dead chicken, we probably can figure out
00:48:45
that the chicken was bitten. In other words, it was rather worthless that >> you know, but you can say it worked for
00:48:50
my purposes, whatever. I just was curious >> and you know what, you have a good story
00:48:54
now, so it was worth it. >> But you know that I was also the blood supplier when I would do when I would be
00:49:00
filmed for like Prime Time Live or various big shows and they wanted blood on the floor for something and and so
00:49:08
I'd say, you know, I'll be right back and I go and prick my finger and go dripping blood everywhere.
00:49:13
>> Oh my goodness. >> Just leave your DNA everywhere. Oh, you're welcome. >> I mean that the if you have a copy of
00:49:19
From Potter's Field. Oh, now here is a morbid factoid that hardly anybody knows. Oh, I love this.
00:49:26
>> If you have an the early hard copy of from Potter's Field, which which came out in the mid '9s,
00:49:33
>> on the cover there is a footprint in snow that has blood drips on it. Okay. Now, I made that footprint in snow by
00:49:41
buying an antique military boot. We put fake snow out. We put the bootprint in it. I pricricked my finger and bled my
00:49:48
own blood. And so I said, "Hypothetically, my DNA is on the cover of that book." That is so badass.
00:49:53
>> No, that is my blood you're looking at. Because if I took one, you know, nobody
00:49:58
else had any blood handy, so I said, "Oh, no biggie. I'm just You're like, I got some. I got a lot."
00:50:03
>> You took blood, sweat, and tears to the next level off that one. >> Yeah. Amazing.
00:50:11
[Music] Switching gears a little bit here. Um, I want to talk about your characters a
00:50:25
little bit and obviously you've been writing them for a while. So, do you feel like they kind of lead you to where
00:50:30
they want to go sometimes at this point or do you feel totally in control writing them where they're where they
00:50:36
should be? >> You know, it's a funny thing. I guess the best way to answer that is I would
00:50:41
say it's a collaboration because I I think in terms of scenes, you know, some and sometimes I'll actually have a list
00:50:48
of certain scenes that I want to do and and I kind of map out how to get her to the to wherever that scene is. But
00:50:56
sometimes she has ideas of her own >> and and there are also times where where she and Marina are getting in the truck
00:51:05
to head somewhere and I'm not really sure what they're going to find when they get there. And I'm and I'll say to
00:51:09
them, not literally, but I'm thinking, I hope you know what you're doing because
00:51:13
I'm drawing a big blank about where to go after. >> You better show me, >> right?
00:51:17
>> They're driving along wishing they had a cigarette, >> chewing gum. They're not listening to
00:51:22
me. No. >> In fact, they, you know, when they go to the the food court after a hard day of
00:51:28
working terrible crime scene, they they sit there and Marino says, you know, it was like something straight out of a
00:51:33
Patricia Cornwell novel. You don't even know that you're in a novel and you're like, well, do we know what we're in?
00:51:40
Maybe we're in a novel. >> Maybe sometimes I feel that way. It does feel that way.
00:51:45
>> I love that. >> Well, there is the the theory that we're living in a simulated universe.
00:51:50
>> And every once in a while it'll you'll be like, is it true? Like sometimes things happen that you're like, makes
00:51:56
sense. >> Yeah. So, how does it feel? I have to ask this to have inspired literally like a
00:52:03
generation of thriller slashcrime writers, particularly women, specifically me. >> Good. Then I've done a good thing if
00:52:12
I've inspired you. >> You really have. Like you were the first person, especially like a woman writer,
00:52:17
and writing about the things that I was so excited to learn about cuz I was always very interested in like the
00:52:23
autopsy part. >> Now, in your books is your ma who is your main character? My main character
00:52:27
is Dr. Ren Mueller. >> And what kind of doctor is she? >> She's a forensic pathologist.
00:52:32
>> Ah, well, now I'm gonna give you a I I'll share a trade secret with you then since we both write about the same
00:52:38
thing. Is, you know, when I was getting started, medical examiners had a very prescribed thing that they did. And
00:52:45
sometimes the forensic pathologist would go to a crime scene. And back in those days, there weren't really death
00:52:49
investigators, but in but you know, they they had they they did their thing and they testified in court and that was and
00:52:56
they taught and that was about it. It's really these days boundaries are not quite so clear. And I know a lot of
00:53:03
forensic pathologists who've gone way over those boundaries, you know, where they actually will get more involved in
00:53:09
helping you reconstruct what happened to, you know, in a shooting or this. Um, and I think that I think that we have
00:53:16
permission to make our forensic pathologists a little bit more proactive. Absolutely. Especially since
00:53:22
uh this is something most people don't know, and I don't know if this is true in Massachusetts, but I do know it's
00:53:28
true in in um like the Los Angeles coroner's office that a lot of forensic pathologists are also peace officers.
00:53:35
They are sworn police >> and they have to have a gun. They have to know how to shoot it. They carry a
00:53:41
badge and they can arrest people. Y >> but they don't usually do it. >> Um and one of the reasons that they're
00:53:47
peace officers is very often these people uh they respond to scenes in very dangerous areas
00:53:54
>> as you know. >> Absolutely. My only thing I would say to you is, you know, you can let your
00:54:00
person I I, you know, maybe you already do, but I think that you can have them more proactive because one of the things
00:54:06
I would get frustrated with with writing about a medical examiner is is I want her to sit down with a family and talk
00:54:13
to them in their home. I want her to go somewhere. I want her to do something. I
00:54:18
want her to to get I want more drama. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> So, I have really ramped up the drama. I
00:54:24
mean, I have Scarpetta doing all kinds of things that she, you know, maybe she wouldn't really do, but it doesn't
00:54:29
matter, does it? >> Yeah. And it makes sense. >> But I had to learn to not be too wedded
00:54:33
to what I knew was true. >> And that it took me years um to get over >> working around the real environment all
00:54:42
the time because I I'd feel like, well, you can't have her do that. A medical examiner. Oh, no. She can't be a
00:54:47
helicopter pilot. No medical examiner could be a helicopter pilot. You better make Lucy the helicopter pilot. Well, if
00:54:54
I were doing that again today, I probably would have scared to be a helicopter pilot. I might have that she
00:54:59
learned it in the military. Who knows what I would do, but I would give her a very different background if I were
00:55:04
starting this all over again. I would have her >> more a little bit more dramatic, more
00:55:10
involved in stuff and then and I think that you can do that. You know, it's sort of like in Great Britain where they
00:55:16
have what's called a police surgeon. >> Yeah. That's really the old tradition is
00:55:20
having a doctor that that assists with the police, but that you know, but they're actually kind of working more
00:55:27
with the police than just something that's very separate from it. >> So, I would say pull out all the stops,
00:55:33
baby. >> Hell yeah. I love that's great advice. I love that cuz I love having that cuz
00:55:39
>> I think it's fun to one of the things I love about K Scarpetta especially is that we get to see so much of her life
00:55:45
like inside and outside of the morg and I think she has so much agency outside of the morg as well. So that's why like
00:55:51
her character has really always been my number one girl cuz I just really think she's such a badass in and outside of
00:55:58
what she does. Oh, well, listen. If we if we did a laundry list of how many people she's had to kill,
00:56:03
>> how many times someone's tried to kill her. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't think there's any human on
00:56:09
the planet that's had so many near misses or so many dramatic moments as got Dr. Scarpetta. But considering she's
00:56:15
been out there for 35 years, I don't if she wants to carry her gun in her bulletproof Kevlar briefcase that Lucy
00:56:22
gave her that, by the way, is also fireproof and can sustain a microwave weapon. True story.
00:56:28
thing. I mean, I have I have one in under my shelf over here. I love that. >> So, cuz when when I write about
00:56:36
something like that, then Stacy decides my partner decides that I should have a Kevlar briefcase, too. And I'm thinking,
00:56:42
but where might I carry that? >> I love that. >> Everywhere. >> I love that she's like your Santa. She's
00:56:48
like, well, you need one, too. >> I order strange things. If I have the characters wearing a gas mask, then I've
00:56:54
got to know what it feels like to put one of those on. And so I order stuff and then end up giving it away to
00:56:59
somebody who would want such a strange thing. Um, so you're very tactile. >> Well, I if I believe it, then you'll
00:57:06
believe it. If I don't believe what I'm if I don't believe what I'm saying because I really don't know the answer,
00:57:12
then then I just can't write about it with authority. So I try to I mean a lot of things you can just you can imagine.
00:57:18
You can fill in the blanks. You don't have to try everything and certainly don't try, you know, being a serial
00:57:24
killer. Don't do that. >> Yeah. Don't try. Great advice. >> Great advice. >> If you take one thing away,
00:57:29
>> but I think there's there's never a substitution for witnessing something for yourself if you can.
00:57:35
>> Yeah. >> Because you you will learn something. You will be surprised by a detail you
00:57:41
will never ever imagine. Um >> I I remember the first time I I stood out on a launch pad for, you know, at a
00:57:48
a NASA site on Wallops Island in V in in Virginia where they they rock fire rockets off all the time. And I was
00:57:55
taken out to this launchpad and it was very windy. It's right on the ocean. It's this stark barren landscape with
00:58:01
all the scaffolding. And I'm looking at it and and I've seen pictures. I know what it looks like. But
00:58:08
what I never knew is when the wind was blowing through the scaffolding, it created this eerie music,
00:58:15
>> which is eerie. And it was like space music. And I'm standing there and I'm thinking, am I the only one hearing this
00:58:22
right now? And you never would have known that. >> Yeah. No, >> but it's just you get you get surprised.
00:58:29
And if you go to the if you see cases that come into the medical examiner's office, the poignency of like people,
00:58:38
and I'm so sorry to say it, but people who have a baby die >> and then it's brought in and it's in the
00:58:43
bassinet >> and that just goes right through you when you see that >> and or you find I'll never forget that
00:58:54
this was a true case, a real case in my early days at at the morg where this woman had gone out to a bar and she's
00:59:02
walking home along a highway around 3:00 in the morning. Um, you know, drunk and
00:59:08
she gets hit by a car and she ends up in our office. She's on the table the next
00:59:12
morning. And so the she the state trooper is going through her stuff and he pulls the little slip of paper from a
00:59:20
fortune cookie out of her wallet that clearly meant so much to her that she saved it.
00:59:26
>> Wow. And it said, "You will soon have an encounter that will change the course of
00:59:30
your life." >> Wow. I just got goosebumps. >> Little did she know that that encounter
00:59:36
was a car on a dark highway. >> Yes. >> And I'll never forget the look on the state trooper's face. He didn't know
00:59:42
whether to laugh or to cry for a minute. >> Wow. That's true. >> It's so bizarre. Like, what are the
00:59:47
odds? >> Or the goofy teenage boy who thinks it's cool. He's trying to impress some girl.
00:59:54
He's like 13 or 14 and this country boy standing up in the back of a pickup truck.
01:00:00
>> And the they went under an overpass and he hit his head. >> Oh. >> He comes in and and in his pocket is a
01:00:09
dented can of Old Spice deodorant. >> Oh man. >> And you can imagine that he is trying to
01:00:16
smell nice for these girls he's trying to impress that he's showing off for and that's the last moment of his life. And
01:00:22
these are the sort of things that it's very they're so important for me to remember and to witness and
01:00:29
>> because if you don't put the humanity into all this, we can joke all we want about morbidity, but if you don't really
01:00:36
tell it in the lap of life going on and those and the pain and the reality of all this, if you don't recognize it at
01:00:43
some level, then you it's really not worth telling the story. And nobody should want to read it either.
01:00:49
>> No, it's so true. And it all of that really reminds me of like, you know, the
01:00:54
nail polish that I would see on people and be like that you just painted your nails and like had no idea what was
01:00:59
going to come next and that that was it forever. It's like those little things were the things that shocked me about my
01:01:06
first few autopsies was how they like affected me. It's very true. I mean, one of the I I uh did a show that had to do
01:01:15
with Princess Diana's death. This was about 20 years ago, a little over 20 years ago. And I one of the people I
01:01:21
interviewed was the the assistant, the pathology assistant who was there for her autopsy.
01:01:27
>> Oh wow. >> And the the the thing that I remembered so vividly is that she he said she had
01:01:34
on turquoise toenail polish. >> Oh. And it's just like that little thing. And I, you know, I know
01:01:42
everything else that he said, you know, about what he found and some of the injuries and all that, but the two
01:01:47
things that struck me the most were the the turquoise toenail polish that she had on that that she put on right before
01:01:55
I guess she'd gone to the Ritz or whatever in Paris. Um, and that I was told by somebody who saw her body that a
01:02:04
lot of her fingers were broken. >> Oh, wow. And I can't vouch for that myself, but but I suspect it's true
01:02:10
because she and Dodie Aliad were not they weren't wearing seat belts in the back of that car. And here's one of the
01:02:15
main reasons you would wonder if it's really a conspiracy their deaths is if they'd had their seat belts on, they
01:02:21
might not have died. >> Yeah. >> But they didn't. So when you bam hit that cement piling in that tunnel, she
01:02:29
you're going to go forward and same thing happens in plane crashes and people break their fingers from trying
01:02:34
to it's a it's a ref. Yeah. That's like the first thing you do. >> But it's so and and it's those details
01:02:41
that humanize and then you see this poor person um she might have been one of the
01:02:46
most famous women in the world but it's the poignency of those human details that grab us. Yeah.
01:02:54
>> Not so much how much their heart weighed. Who cares, right? >> It's like she's a mom, she's a friend,
01:02:59
she's, you know, she's a woman, she's just she's more than what she is on the table. That was always the thing that we
01:03:06
were always trying to maintain >> was this is more than just a body on the table. This is somebody somebody.
01:03:11
>> Well, here's the thing. If you don't see it as more than just a body on the table, you may miss a very important
01:03:17
clue. >> That's that you shouldn't be in that morg if you don't. I mean really truly
01:03:21
because you know for example I remember this early case of a of a terrible sexual homicide. This young
01:03:28
woman comes home and the the guy's hiding in her closet because he had a key. He's a maintenance worker and she I
01:03:34
mean it wasn't solved for a long time but it's a horrible case. >> That's horrifying.
01:03:37
>> Um >> and we she he was with her all night long and she died about 6:00 the next
01:03:44
morning and when her body came to the office we took it in the X-ray room. This was in the early days when we were
01:03:50
just starting to use lasers you to look for trace evidence on the body because some things will light up and you find
01:03:57
them. And so this was a new thing and we were in there using the laser going over
01:04:00
her whole body looking for any evidence. And it was remarkably clean and the thing that I noticed is that that her
01:04:08
legs were were so cleanly shaven that either they'd been waxed or she just shaved them. And so I'm thinking, well,
01:04:16
she she'd been out all day. She came home late at night. She didn't die until the next morning. Um, she shouldn't look
01:04:23
this smooth. >> No. >> And so I thought, I guarantee you this guy made her take a bath.
01:04:29
>> And Yeah. And and and I guarantee that he made her shave her legs, you know, and maybe because that was part of his
01:04:36
ritual and part of the control that he was exerting over her. But if you're not really looking at that person,
01:04:45
>> you're not going to start thinking things like that and wondering, >> you're not getting into them and trying
01:04:51
to channel what might have happened to them. Exactly. And we owe them that. >> As painful as that is, we owe them our
01:05:00
most sincere and devoted attention. Yeah. At that last moment, I mean, God knows what they've been through. If we
01:05:06
don't, if they don't talk to us and we don't listen, then nobody's going to. >> So true. So true. Is there a book that
01:05:13
you've read recently that just like blew your mind? >> This is a book I keep on my desk that
01:05:17
blows my mind and I highly recommend it. It's called The Creative Act. >> Oo, speaking being by Rick Rubin, and
01:05:26
it's all about creativity and these little quotes and stuff like it's not unusual for science to catch up with art
01:05:34
eventually. >> Oh, look at that. It's unusual for art to catch up to the spiritual, but there
01:05:38
but there's all stuff all kinds of things in here that if you are a creative, no matter what kind of
01:05:44
creative, writer, artist, scientist, podcaster, um that it it it writes your perspective
01:05:52
of of the creative process and of the things to be mindful of to make it work for you better.
01:05:58
>> That's so cool. >> And and the biggest thing it teaches you is to let go. Don't try to force things.
01:06:04
I love that. Which I think we all need. >> Yeah, that's great advice. >> Yes, everybody needs that.
01:06:09
>> But I you should order this. I just I keep it on my desk. >> What was that called again? I'm going to
01:06:13
write it down. >> The the creative act, a way of being by Rick Rubin, who's a music producer.
01:06:20
>> All right. Yeah, I want to order that. >> Yeah, but look, I mean, I'm telling you
01:06:22
that it's something that you will keep around. I mean, I like to read things there. There are novels that I'll look
01:06:29
at because the writing is so amazing, like Chris Whitaker. Oh yeah. >> All the colors of the dark.
01:06:35
>> And he is really such a talented, brilliant writer. And I like to look at what he does with words and how he sets
01:06:42
the scene. He's a young guy. I'm I'm still learning, you know, from people. I um I have I look I have a Hemingway
01:06:49
novel that I've been >> rereading for decades called The Garden of Eden. >> Oh, yeah. And it's it was published
01:06:57
postumously and it's not the it's not the best example of his work but it's fascinating because the main character
01:07:04
is a novelist >> and it's and you know it's really Hemingway's you know alter ego but he
01:07:11
describes what it's like to get up in the morning and walk and feel the cold stone under his bare feet as he's
01:07:18
walking down to the end of this hotel hallway where he is writing in his room and looking out at the ocean and all
01:07:25
these things and and he laments about how writing makes him selfish and he knows he he's selfish because and and
01:07:33
anybody hello if you're and if this is what you're doing you kind of cut off you cut out everybody while you're doing
01:07:40
it >> and those who live with us have to know that if we don't do that we won't get it
01:07:44
done exactly >> but it does but I I I was so grateful and continue to be in addition to some
01:07:50
of the amazing ways Hemingway describes things but It's it's nice to read something that you that you relate to.
01:07:58
>> Oh yeah. >> That you go I know exactly what he's feeling. I feel the same thing. I may
01:08:03
not be Hemingway, but I know what he's feeling. >> Yeah. That makes you feel seen for sure.
01:08:07
>> And honestly, that's what a lot of your books did for me when I started working
01:08:11
in the morg. It was like, "Oh, I get this. I know that smell. Like, I know how she's feeling here. I know the
01:08:16
frustration in this point." And I find myself now still loving that kind of thing, but also loving to read books
01:08:23
about writers where a writer is a main character because I'm like, "Yep, I know that frustration now." So, it is it's so
01:08:29
true. When you can relate, it's just such a richer story. I feel like >> Yes, I I I agree. Well, you know, I I
01:08:36
feel like that's really why we we are storytellers. We want people to gather around and to make them feel included
01:08:43
and to share an adventure with them. Yeah. It's it's not supposed to be this isolative experience where, oh, look at
01:08:50
what I did now. Tell me how good I am. No. >> In fact, if you really do a good job as
01:08:55
a writer, people shouldn't be all that conscious of your writing. What they should see is what you're showing them.
01:09:01
>> Yes. >> You know, they should woof, you know, that scene. You're taking them on a
01:09:05
journey. It's not a book. It's a plane ticket. It's a ticket to ride. It's a it's a it's a voyage. We want to take
01:09:12
places that you know that you're you're medical examiner in mind. We want them to take people places that they don't
01:09:18
usually get to go. >> And medical examiner facilities are really that way more than they used to be
01:09:25
because ever since CO in particular, many of these places are very closed. They don't want anybody coming in.
01:09:32
They're they're worried about >> leaks. They're worried about diseases. They're worried about lawsuits. They're
01:09:37
worried about everything. >> Oh yeah. Co was a wild time in the morg. I was working in the morg during co. It
01:09:43
was a >> it was a sight to see when would come home. >> Yeah. We had different you know the
01:09:48
protocols for that went crazy. I mean it needed to >> but it was in particular doing neuro
01:09:53
cases doing a brain cutting. We had to like build a box over the person's head and then use our arms in like full, you
01:10:00
know, gear to do it. >> That's exactly what the If you go to Johnson Space Center and you want to
01:10:05
touch a moon rock, they're put in this tank. I think it's filled with nitrogen and they have the gloves built in and
01:10:11
you have to manipulate it with the it's called glove. Yeah, >> that's what we did with the brain
01:10:16
cutting that. So you just you became an astronaut. You didn't know. >> Look at that. I didn't even know it.
01:10:21
>> So there you go. >> Look at me. I can add it to my resume. >> You're doing all kinds of things.
01:10:25
>> Well, you know that's an interesting thing that you could describe because we
01:10:30
hope that CO doesn't come back. But you could have you could have anything that is hazardous.
01:10:35
>> Yeah. >> Toxic possibility. radiation, poisons, anything where you have to implement
01:10:41
those kind of protocols. And the nice thing is you know exactly how it works. >> Oh yeah,
01:10:46
>> it was it's so true. I could describe that to a tea. >> You could come up with almost anything
01:10:50
where you I mean you could have a big piece of the International Space Station that crashes down to Earth with somebody
01:10:57
that didn't make it and you can't treat that like normal veins because of where it's been.
01:11:02
>> Yeah. And when the flying saucer shows up, you know, with one of those little
01:11:06
gray people in it, you have to take all kinds of precautions. >> All the same precautions.
01:11:10
>> But we hope that those are the visitors don't die. We don't want them in the morg.
01:11:14
>> Yeah. We don't want that. >> We want to hang with them. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. We want to hang with them.
01:11:18
>> Yeah. Find out about them. >> Well, Patricia, thank you so much for joining us. This has been so much fun.
01:11:25
>> Well, you're very welcome. It has been fun to talk to both of you with everything. Thank you.
01:11:29
>> Thank you so much. And also, just so you know, you're in the acknowledgements of
01:11:33
my first book. >> Oh, >> we'll have to send it to you. You should. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think your character needs to
01:11:39
occasionally give Scarpetta a call. Just prepare notes. >> Oh my god. There you go.
01:11:44
>> The dream. >> I I don't I'm just telling you they know each other. Are you aware?
01:11:48
>> I feel like they do. >> I think they do. I think that they are friends and they didn't tell us, but I
01:11:53
She didn't tell me much. She doesn't think I exist. But what I'm telling you is h you know, I bet that they're
01:11:59
buddies. I think I bet. You know what? I bet they hang out with Dexter. Both of them do.
01:12:03
>> Oh, 100%. That's real now. That's canon. >> I love it. Well, everybody check out the
01:12:10
latest installment to Patricia's work, Sharp Force, which comes out tomorrow if you're listening to this right away.
01:12:15
>> It's so good. >> October 7th. And we also can't wait to tune in to Scarpetta next spring. Huge
01:12:20
congratulations to you and thank you again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Take care. You
01:12:26
welcome back anytime. >> Yeah, please come back. We will. >> Yeah, definitely. All right, we'll see
01:12:31
you then. >> All right, >> thank you. >> Bye. >> How [ __ ] cool was that, guys?
01:12:36
>> That was so That was so fun. >> It was awesome. That >> You're geeking >> when she said when she told me that K.
01:12:43
Scarpetta and Ren Mueller would be friends. >> Yeah, that's that was next level [ __ ]
01:12:48
>> I'll even I was just like, "Oh my god." >> Yeah. I'm not even here anymore. >> No, Elena has passed away.
01:12:55
>> I'm I've shuffled off. I I have danced off this mortal coil after that. >> Did a little jig off this mortal coil.
01:13:02
>> [ __ ] awesome. We hope you guys dug that as much as we did. >> Also, we are going to bring back the
01:13:08
morbid book club. We've decided >> remember we have a we have a bonus episode to play around with so we can
01:13:13
make it whatever the [ __ ] we want. >> Yeah, Patricia inspired us. I haven't read any of the Scarpetta series and now
01:13:19
I want to. >> You'll love her. >> So, in the next couple of months, we're going to start with it's postmortem.
01:13:24
>> Postmortem is her first book in the series. >> All right. So, our bonus episode in a
01:13:27
couple months, we'll be going over postmortem. So, everybody start reading if you haven't yet.
01:13:32
>> Yeah, I figure we'll we'll sprinkle in the book club here and there on a bonus
01:13:35
episode. So, >> it's we're going to make those fun. You know, they can be all kinds of things.
01:13:41
So, if you guys want to get with us on the postmortem thing so we can talk about it and go through it. So, you can
01:13:47
listen to it, you can read it, you have a couple months to catch up on it. We'll
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let you know when it's coming. Also, how [ __ ] awesome is Patricia's voice? >> Great voice.
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>> She is literally Clarice Starling. >> Elena said it to me before we started the interview and I was like, "Oh." As
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soon as it start as soon as she started talking, I was like, "Oh, wow." Yeah. I was like, "She created one of my
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favorite characters and she sounds like one of my favorite characters." >> She is my favorite character.
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>> Like, damn, Patricia. >> I love it. >> Yeah, that was that was phenomenal. So,
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>> check out Patricia's all of Patricia's stuff. We got Sarapetta coming. We got
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um >> Sharp Force >> Sharp Force coming and in a couple months we'll have postmortem.
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>> Go take it back to the beginning. >> So we hope you keep listening >> and we hope you
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>> keep it but not so weird that you don't join us for our book club and check out all of
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Patricia's things >> because it's so good. >> Everything is so fun thrillers. [Music]
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