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hey weirdos I'm Alena I'm Ash and this is [Music] morbid it is this is morbid it's morbid
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in the afternoon it's actually kind of like the late afternoon currently it is it it is mid afternoon no like late
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afternoon it's late it's like mid to late afternoon it's laughternoon woo but that's not good cuz this isn't a show
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about laughing yeah and also this case that I'm going to be telling you what do you have is we're going to be talking
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about the lipstick killer today um some people think of him as William hirn wrong I am not sure huh
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I'll give you my full breakdown of end of this um but this is a gruesome case it's an awful case um there is one child
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murder in this case that is very terrible but I will get through it as best as we can here um it's terrible and
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the aftermath of it them trying to figure out who actually did these murders and if they're connected and
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which ones are connected and all that is the most mindblowing EXT Extravaganza of
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stupidity you will ever witness fantastic I love when that happens it's infuriating no it's infuriating and I
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don't think so William hirens is known popularly as the lipstick killer yeah um I don't who knows if you'll think that
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at the end but in your eye tells me I won't I don't think he did it really and like do I think he was like a great guy
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probably not uh but he was arrested when he was 17 and again we're going to get into all this but he was arrested when
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he was 17 and he was kind of just like a little [ __ ] he was like a little burglar
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you know just a little shitthead yeah um like Mur violent child murderer probably not uh but let's get
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into it shall we this is going to be a two-parter because oh no oh gosh so let us begin we are going
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to be talking about three murders like I said there two murders of two women and
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one murder of a six-year-old young girl which I know is horrific I just want to prepare you ahead of time again I'll go
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through it as best as we can and that's all in part one that is going to be all in part one and I think we will be
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getting more in part two is going to be more the um when they arrested William hirin and all of the wild aftermath of
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that okay um so it was the summer of 1945 so we're in the mid-40s here Josephine Ross was 43 years old she was
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twice divorced at this point and now found herself a newly widowed mother living on Chicago's East Side oh that's
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so sad yeah for over a decade she had been a stay-at-home mom raising her two daughters Mary Jane and Jacqueline oh
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cute names and she had spent all her time and energy on everyone else you know husband daughters but now that her
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daughters were grown and her third husband Herbert Ross had died she kind of found herself like floating a little
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bit because you know she she had little to occupy her time to be honest cuz like
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it had all been spent all her energy on them yeah and she spent most nights going to movies she loved to visit
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psychics she went on many many dates now like she was just out there in the dating world she attended parties it was
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a simpler you know existence than the hustle and bustle of like being a wife and mother in the' 40s especially yeah
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but Josephine and her daughters they none of them found any fault in this lifestyle that you like her dating a lot
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or anything like that like no one was concerned and no one was like she's going out too much you know yeah she's
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just living her [ __ ] life and in fact in early June Josephine had visit visited a tarot card reader and this
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tarot card reader had told her that her future looked very promising and that she would likely be remarried by the end
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of the year oh and the lawsuit over Herbert's life insurance claim that was that was like really clouding over her
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at this point it was um I'll get into it a little more but it was over like Medical you know what they what they
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assumed was like medical fraud or something like that um it was going to be she said it would be settled in her
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favor so that was all good news to her she's like great and on the morning of June 5th Maryanne stood at the Maryann
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one of her daughters stood at the bathroom sink getting ready for work and listening as her mother told her all
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about this tarot card reader's predictions and the whole life insurance thing was that she'd been fighting this
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case for like a year since Herbert's death because they claimed that he had falsified medical records okay she was
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going to be like coming out on top on that so she was happy because it was coming to an end she was finally going
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to be paid out the insurance money and as for the psychic's prediction of marriage Josephine's boyfriend Oscar
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nordmark had actually already proposed oh [ __ ] um but she had yet to formally accept she was mulling it over oh what a
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good girl and later Mary Jane would remember how happy her mother seemed that morning as she saw both of her
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daughters off for work oh no with her daughters out of the apartment for the day and really nothing on her calendar
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that day Josephine was like you know what I'm going to have a me day so she changed back into her purple robe and
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decided to go back to bed and have you know a later morning so relatable good for you you know to self-care now
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Jacqueline one of her daughters returned home for lunch around 1:30 p.m. that afternoon um she unlocked the door as
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she entered and she expected to find the apartment and her mother as she had left
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them earlier that morning mhm Jacqueline was absolutely stunned when she walked in and found that the apartment had been
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totally rans sacked chairs other Furniture were all turned over drawers were pulled completely out everything in
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the drawers was strewn across the room this may be reminding you a bit of the career girl girl murders that I covered
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in my last case you literally took the words right out of my mouth yeah there is a little bit of like the obviously
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they are not connected in any way but there's some weird similarities in in some of the case aspects yeah papers and
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other items were littered all over the floor I mean it was a mess like a bomb had gone off and jackelin was obviously
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and understandably immediately terrified oh yeah so but she was thinking of her mother so she ran into the bedroom she
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shared with her mother and that's where she saw her oh my God Josephine was lying across the bed Jacqueline her
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daughter's red skirt was wrapped around her head oh my God and a pair of silk stockings was wrapped around her neck
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nearly every surface around her mother's body the bed the floor the walls the drapes soaked with blood what and
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Jacqueline knew her mother was dead what a [ __ ] like that sounds like something out of a horror film there are
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many times in this case where you're like this is a horror movie like this can't be real life how do you ever move
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on from that like how do you ever recover exactly how do you ever and it's her skirt over her head like the
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daughter's skirt like something about that just like oh no that's so visual now Jacqueline called
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the police and they arrived at the apartment a short time later and as far as Mary Jane and Jacqueline could tell
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the apartment had obviously been ransacked and trashed but aside from a few dollars taken from Josephine's purse
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nothing seemed to be missing just like the career girl murders oh and that's so weird like just a couple like what what
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was it like 20 bucks a few dollars oh that's weird so detectives were able to rule out robbery as the motive and
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logically just like in the KW girl murders assumed the murder was personal that was a theory that grew some legs
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when the coroner briefly examined Josephine's body at the scene and discovered that while the area around
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her body had been I mean completely saturated and soaked with blood the body itself looked like it had been washed at
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some point between the killing and when the killer left the apartment what she had been washed
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down when they went to the bathroom and searched detectives found that yes the bathtub was partially partly filled with
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garments and bloody water what the [ __ ] yeah now when they removed the skirt from her head and stockings from around
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Josephine's head and neck investigators discovered the actual cause of death in addition to severe bruising on her head
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and face which indicated that she'd been hit repeatedly with a heavy object there
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were deep slashes on her face and four knife wounds on her neck wow the killer had stabbed her one of them severed her
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jugular vein oh wow that's you're going to bleed a lot yeah aside from the sheer
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brutality of this entire thing detectives found another piece of the puzzle that was strange and unsettling
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too the killer had placed adhesive tape across the wounds on the face and neck as though they were trying to undo the
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damage caused by the knife what like Scotch tape oh I don't know I have yet to hear
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anything this strange and brutal that's I don't even know how to react to that like
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literally this seems frenzied yes a frenzied killing yes cuz the rans sacking I assume happened
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probably afterwards to Stage you know or to confuse or whatever yeah who knows this seems like a very frenzied killing
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I mean stabbing in the face and neck and hitting with some object repeatedly that's very frenzied very aggressive
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very wild animesque and then to wash her but not the surrounding area just her just her her cloth wounds and to tape up
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the wounds and then to wrap her head so not to see them that's just that's very telling yeah and then and the thing is
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like immediately you want to say and I felt this way last time when we were talking about the career girl murders
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you want to say this has got to be personal it's got to be personal but I feel like from that case that previous
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one that we just did I I don't want to say that this time but this like you really would think so I can understand
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why they went in there and said like this has got to be someone she knows of course because like what else is there
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like and remember this is the' 40s the idea of a serial killer was not something that they understood or knew
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or even was brought up weren't even talking about quano the idea that somebody was could have just ran came in
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in here with the sheer want to just terrorize and like mutilate this woman was just beyond the scope of like their
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thought process at the time this also reminds me a little bit of like and we haven't covered him yet but we will the
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weepy voice killer we have covered him we did Cover him didn't we okay I thought so I was going to say did we
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because I was like wait and like way early I was going to say it was way early on once it was in the the laundry
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room pod yes now I remember and we it just reminds me of it like how he was like he would do that like weeping thing
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afterwards but he was so brutal yeah he was super brutal but then would like really come down from but then like be
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sobbing and weeping about it and stuff and it's like this gives similar Vibes of somebody who's in this frenzied State
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and is just like a beast monster and then immediately like shoots back into like human body for a second and it's
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like what have I done and just tries to take it back no it's so true so along with the evidence discovered in the
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bathtub investigators strongly believe Josephine's killer had been known to her and the murder was intensely personal
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like you were saying and the killer obviously immediately regretted their actions because they were looking at
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someone that they knew and possibly had quote unquote cared about at some point in their life to be honest like like we
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were just saying I can understand why they thought that like that's looking back on this part of it you're like yeah
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I get that well and I I feel like the face too like the the wounds face one like slashing the face up that much and
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then two covering the face and the washing it does feel personal but I mean people are [ __ ] lunatics so and
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especially in the' 40s these kind of things would have been like ding ding ding this is definitely a personal
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murder in the' 40s cuz they hadn't seen all of the things that we have now seen in 202 and so now we know yeah lots of
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them do weird [ __ ] and like wash a body that they have no connection to other than just having brutally murdering them
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so it's like we know now that that's like needs to be considered as a possibility that
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this is just a stranger who came in and is a monster and has some kind of psychological thing where he regrets it
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immediately and has to try to pretend it didn't happen in his own mind or something or get the You Know cover her
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face so that she can't look at him or she doesn't he doesn't want the Judgment we've seen all these now but in the 40s
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they had not so this is just like this has to be personal and the whole thing of like I feel like sometimes we feel
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like something is personal and then we look back on it and we're like well it was for the killer because this person
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was like this other person personified for them do you know they can be connected to another person in their
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life that they've become a symbol AS kind of thing now based on their theory that Josephine
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knew her killer police immediately started looking around into her personal life you know I said she was going on
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dates she was she was almost engaged at this point um and they were quickly identifying the most likely suspects
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that they at least wanted to talk to her wouldbe fiance Oscar and her on and off
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again boyfriend Chester rice were the first two that they looked at of course Oscar nordmark had an airtight Alibi for
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the afternoon of the murder and that's the wood be fiance yeah okay um and his Alibi was that he was with another
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woman well you know I guess they were he hadn't got a solid yes and she also had
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you know what are you GNA do and this other woman Francis sarin was able to say yes he was with me at the estimated
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time of death all right um besides while Josephine's daughters had never really liked Oscar uh they also said they could
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not Envision him ever hurting their mother or murdering her like they were like no we might not like like him but
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he's not that guy okay Chester rice on the other hand seemed like he could be a more likely suspect was he violent
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Chester rice was an ex-convict who'd served several years in state prison for a series of grocery store robberies oh
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uh he had unfortunately been a presence in Josephine's life for more than two decades at this point uh they were on
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and off again and although the two had carried on an affair at various points since first meeting um and Josephine and
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Mary Jane had even uh had even lived with rice for a short period of time Josephine had never really taken their
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relationship that seriously or was ever really willing to commit to him despite him really trying to lock her down a few
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times she was like no thank you like it was just kind of like a convenient thing
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like yeah whatever like yeah um The Casual rejections though had been a point of contention between them for
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years particularly in recent weeks oh no since Josephine had announced her intention to possibly marry Oscar oh no
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this all move Chester up to the top of the suspect list now a friend of Chester though Louie breit brait preter I think
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it is okay told police that he'd been with chester at several different taverns on the morning of the murder and
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had been in a car with chester rice at the time of Josephine's death effectively ruling him out as a suspect
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which was unfortunate because they thought they had like a clear suspect I guess fortunate and unfortunate mhm now
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aside from the two cleared suspects investigators really had little to go on but the janitor did report having seen a
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darkhaired and well-dressed man in his 20s or 30s leave the building by way of the fire escape oh sometime between 12:
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and 1:00 p.m. also to think of this man as A well-dressed man like a Patrick baitman kind of situation like doing
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this that's really terrifying apparently he was wearing a white sweater with what
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appeared to be blood stains on the front according to the janitor h neighbor also
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saw this man and confirmed the physical description though they had nothing really to add to the description they
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just said yeah that's how what he looked like later that afternoon FBI agents in
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Chicago arrested 32-year-old Lawrence Gates Lawrence was a fugitive from California who'd fled the state to avoid
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prosecution on a burglary charge okay while Gates was in custody FBI agents believed he closely matched the
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description of Josephine's killer and given that he was staying just a few doors down from the Ross's apartment
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they contacted Captain Frank Reynolds to notify him of the potential suspect got
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it unfortunately it was quickly determined that Lawrence Gates was not responsible for Josephine's murder and
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within a couple of months investigators had exhausted all their leads like as soon as they brought him and they
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figured out he had an alibi everything was checked out so they're just back at square one and without any new evidence
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or suspects in the Ross case the Press quickly lost interest in the story which is I'm sorry what wild and they moved on
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to more Sensational news items the press in this case will have your head exploding they usually do yeah I'm also
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just like what the [ __ ] is more Sensational than this like for the Press you know what I mean like when you're
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looking at it from that view well news moves fast in a city like Chicago and by the winter of 1945 most people had
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unfortunately forgotten about the murder of Josephine Ross it had just kind of been pushed aside for newer things that
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were happening so crazy that that really is how like it works how the media works
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but her story would finally return to the front pages in December after yet another murder this time of 33-year-old
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Francis Brown although she was born in Indiana Francis had moved to Chicago in 1934 and she was working steadily as a
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stenographer when the US entered World War II in 1942 now like many young women at the
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time she was very eager to support the war effort and so that Summer She signed up for the waves which is women accepted
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for voluntary Emergency Services what a badass which was a federal program that TR trained women in non-combat skills
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like radar technician and mapping um la like mapping to assist Navy Fighters like awesome [ __ ] yeah very like Rosie
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the Riveter kind of stuff very much and it's like and they're like important position that they were volunteering to
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do and francis's position with the waves required her to travel for training and
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first she headed to Naval St station Great Lakes outside Chicago and then to Washington DC when the war ended in the
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fall of 1945 she returned home to Chicago and happily settled back into her old stenographer job with AB dick
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and Company and resumed the life she'd been living before she volunteered for service she's a badass she just
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literally came to Chicago quickly got a stenographer job and then was like oh we're entering the war what the [ __ ] can
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I do jumped in went to training traveled all over the place helping the war effort aming and then once it was done
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she was like all right I'll just go back to my stenographer job I'm like you're a
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badass truly on the evening of December 10th she returned home to the apartment she shared with her roommate Viola
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Butler around 9:30 p.m. when she got into her building the doorman stopped her and let her know that a man had
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stopped by looking for her a few hours earlier but he didn't give a name or say whether he would return okay so she was
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like all right so later the doormen would tell police that it seemed quote she was expecting the call so she was
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like okay like she like she knew who this person was okay once upstairs Francis called her mother to disc
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discuss her travel plans that she had made For an upcoming holiday and then she went into the bathroom to wash her
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hair and got ready for bed very normal evening totally normal the next morning the cleaning woman Martha Engles arrived
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at the apartment she was immediately concerned because she found the front door of the apartment slightly a jar oh
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no and there was very loud music coming from a radio inside at a time when both Francis Brown and Viola Butler would
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normally be at work right so when angles went inside she discovered the apartment
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was completely rans sacked just like Josephine Ross oh no there was a large trail of Blood on the floor leading to
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the bathroom and it looked like someone had attempted to very poorly soak up the
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blood with towels clean up when she reached the bathroom though she found Francis oh no Fran princess's lifeless
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body was draped over the side of the bathtub with her head wrapped in towels and resting on the floor of the tub her
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pajama top had been removed and looped around her neck while her bloody pajama bottoms had been pulled down and were
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Tangled around her feet oh that's so just like all of this is so gruesome there was also a very large bread knife
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thrust through her neck its point and handle protruding beneath each ear straight through her neck and a bread
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knife a giant like one of those big bread KN those aren't even like crazy sharp either you're like what oh my God
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through and through like handle under this ear blade under this year oh my God the image that that conjures up in my
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brain it makes you like have to take a deep breath I am like those PE that woman Martha Angel walking into that
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you'll never be the same never it's like you'll how do you just go back to cleaning apartments after
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that that's such a [ __ ] horrific image and just the like the brute force that would have to take to drive a a
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bread knife through somebody's neck through their neck and it's like if you're looking at this all the
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similarities are here area an apartment rans sacked in the bathroom the clothes used to St to go
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around NE Tow on the head tried to clean up stab to the neck again oh wow it's all the same wow now panic and very
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likely severely traumatized by what she was seeing Martha angles called the police who ared very quickly to
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detectives at the scene they thought immediately what we thought this is very reminiscent to the Ross case like almost
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to a tea just going back for a second it's so sad that like therapy didn't exist like it exists today because that
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poor woman how did she do after this how do you just like nobody like nobody would have
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even sent her to a therapist or to talk to somebody I'm like oh my God so she just had to deal with it wow I can't
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even imagine like how do you even that's the thing like I don't know how you go about this kind of thing you always
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think of these people who stumble upon this stuff like right how are they doing like I don't know how they how people go
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through that now like with thy available but then you go back knowledge of psychology you know like yeah sorry I
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just had to say that no it's true cuz in the 40s like what the [ __ ] did we know
00:24:00
about what was going ontd what did we know about any of that stuff know probably something that like was just so
00:24:07
buried yeah like she probably just buried that down and was like I can't really ever talk about that again yeah
00:24:12
it's true oh my God so detectives were like wow this is very reminiscent of the Josephine Ross murder the apartment was
00:24:20
rans sacked but nothing was stolen again weird which again that's weird mhm um the victim's head had been wrapped like
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we said and as as though the killer didn't want to see her face and didn't want to see what she had done and the
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body had been washed of blood like completely washed again which is so strange and despite being found nude in
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the bathroom or partially nude at least Francis like Josephine had not been sexually assaulted nether one of them
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even though like the pajama pants are down by her ankles and do you think that was like a staging thing possibly but
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then you think of how frenzy this person must have been and it's like they weren't frenzied all the way
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through they took time to wash this person they took time to wrap their head they took time to put them somewhere but
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it almost seems like they're doing all those things like wrapping the head cuz they can't bear what they've done and
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washing them because they can't bear what they've done so why pull her pajama bottoms down after that maybe to just
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confuse yeah or very likely in my thought process and I don't know if anyone will agree when Martha angles
00:25:24
said she walked in there was a trail leading to the bathroom dragged she was dragged her pajama pants pulled down as
00:25:30
she was dragged that does make sense yeah so it does seem like maybe that's a possibility and maybe that's not
00:25:35
supposed to be posed at all and he just didn't want to touch her anymore just happened now the knife through francis's
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neck obviously would have been enough to cause her death however when the coroner
00:25:45
removed the several towels wrapped around her head they discovered the actual cause of death to be a large hole
00:25:52
in her head oh my God caused by a 38 caliber bullet fired at close range what and she lived in an apartment building
00:26:00
oh yeah don't worry people heard what yeah in addition to the head and neck wound Francis had also been shot in the
00:26:07
right shoulder and stabbed in the chest with the same knife that the killer had put through her neck oh my God and there
00:26:14
were small cuts on her hands and the webbing between her fingers oh God indicating that she had fought her
00:26:21
attacker now always desperate for a story The Press arrived at Brown's apartment right behind the police and
00:26:27
report just freely roamed the apartment Jesus Christ mingling with detectives taking photos it was one of those
00:26:35
reporters who after entering Brown's bedroom called out to everyone that there was something they needed to see
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oh no in the bedroom written on the wall in red lipstick was a message that anybody who knows about the lipstick
00:26:49
killer case has seen this message several photos existed you can look them up they're not you don't see scene you
00:26:56
just see the message it is it says For Heaven's Sake catch me before I kill more I cannot control myself which again
00:27:03
is so similar to the weepy voice killer yes and it's and it's so chilling yeah and as for in the Ross murder a window
00:27:12
was found to be open when police arrived which they determined was maybe the Killer's point of entry but all Prince
00:27:18
appeared to have been wiped away so they cleaned up they made sure they didn't leave anything a few days later when
00:27:25
technicians returned to finish processing the seen a single smudged bloody fingerprint on the back of the
00:27:31
bathroom door jam that's all they could find one single smudged fingerprint but aside from the single print there was no
00:27:41
additional evidence Left Behind that's crazy now a canvas of the neighboring Apartments proved a little more fruitful
00:27:48
a tenant on the second floor said they heard gunshots somewhere in the night between
00:27:54
3: and 4:00 a.m. and did what about it and the night that just I heard him are you kidding I mean I don't live in
00:28:02
Chicago I don't know how this this rules but I'm like damn like I I mean I'm sure
00:28:07
you hear gunshots in Chicago quite often but you would think that within the apartment building that's the thing
00:28:15
those have to be pretty close range that you're hearing I would be a little concerned yeah but I don't again I don't
00:28:21
know how big this apartment building is or anything like that but wow but like you hear gunshots in your apartment like
00:28:25
call someone definitely call the police the night clerk said he saw a man leave the building around 4:00 a.m. oh wow uh
00:28:32
the night clerk said he came down the automatic elevator at 4 a.m. he was a stranger he fumbled at the front door
00:28:39
not realizing at first it was locked he turned towards me once he left he seemed
00:28:43
very nervous and the clerk described the man as being 35 to 40 years old 5 1/2 ft
00:28:50
tall and weighing about 140 lb and wearing quote a dark overcoat and a dark hat okay now like the investigation into
00:28:58
the Ross murder the Brown case was stalled almost as soon as they started Francis had many friends but most of
00:29:04
them if not all had aliis none of them had reason to even be upset with her right so they were immediately ruled out
00:29:10
and investigators did find some love letters tucked away among her things but unlike Josephine Ross francis's love
00:29:17
life was pretty simple uncomplicated yeah there weren't many potentially people that she was dating or you know
00:29:22
potential suitors or spurned lovers to be questioned sure simply put there wasn't a single piece of evidence to
00:29:28
provide even the slightest hint of who this killer was now given the similarities to the Ross murder and the
00:29:35
message sprawled on the wall in lipstick the Press seized on the story and quickly dubbed the murderer the lipstick
00:29:42
killer oh yeah the next day at a press conference Captain Reynolds told the Press whoever the killer was he's a
00:29:48
maniac and we must get him now which like yeah we agree mhm interestingly Reynolds was also clear about the fact
00:29:56
that investigators had not ruled out the possibility that the killer could be a woman expanding on that possibility
00:30:04
Reynolds pointed out the note left on the wall having been written in lipstick and having included the feminine phrase
00:30:13
For Heaven's Sake are you kidding me that's real I don't know the feminine phrase
00:30:22
For Heaven's Sake I feel like I've heard a lot of people say that including men and also it's the ' 40s yeah I know
00:30:30
there's some dudes with a button-up shirt and a sweater vest on in the 40s being like For Heaven's Sake yeah you
00:30:37
know that that's not a feminine phrase what the [ __ ] is a feminine phrase and it kind of feels like he's just saying
00:30:42
because it was written in lipstick and it's like yeah I'm sure liptick yeah or Violet had lipstick right like one of
00:30:53
those women probably had lipstick in that apartment I mean it's I I don't put anything on the realm of possibility
00:30:59
obviously anymore with everything we've heard but nothing about this screams female killer to me no and they also
00:31:05
pointed out the fact that Francis and Josephine had not been sexually assaulted either and they were trying to
00:31:11
say like that's why it potentially could be a woman yeah that was part of the like I mean you never know I mean even
00:31:17
if it was a woman they still you know like now they at first everybody was just kind of like okay sure why yeah why
00:31:26
not but now knowing what we know after you can read about this case um it turned out that there were some romantic
00:31:33
love letters found among francis's belongings that were written by a woman and that might be why they were so
00:31:39
that's why they were saying that okay that's what I think was they were like wow how scandalous Scandal so dumb now
00:31:47
within days of the press conference the theories about the Killer and the motive
00:31:50
began to fall apart like that whole thing was just like that's not it um as soon as reporters began to question the
00:31:56
possibility that the killer was woman Reynolds quote admitted that the evidence to support such a theory was
00:32:02
purely speculative based on the phrasing of the message left behind on the wall yeah people also pointed out that the
00:32:08
theory that this killer was just un some unhinged raving madman was unlikely as well because they had the presence of
00:32:15
mind to not only sneak in and out of the building successfully but also they thought to wipe down any surfaces they
00:32:20
might have touched to make sure they didn't leave behind fingerprints that's cunning at the very least also all the
00:32:27
eyewitnesses seeing a man leave right exactly the truth was Chicago detectives had literally no idea who killed Francis
00:32:35
brown or why doesn't sound like it but they did know or at least strongly suspected that the Brown case was
00:32:40
connected to the murder of Josephine Ross six months earlier definitely um although they didn't have the language
00:32:46
or frame of reference at the time investigators on the case suspected they had a serial killer operating within the
00:32:52
city again they weren't calling him that they didn't have that language back then
00:32:56
ter yeah um but basic basically just someone compelled to kill for deeply psychological reasons that would most
00:33:02
likely only make sense to the killer this Jack the Ripper type of Slayer as they called him which doesn't roll off
00:33:09
the tongue quite as long as well as serial killer no it sure doesn't um Jack the Ripper type of Slayer is what they
00:33:15
were calling imagine if we just had to say that every time we talked about AER type of Slayer that'd be a lot I mean
00:33:20
there's aren't there like podcasts called like serial killers it would have to be called Jack the Ripper type Slayer
00:33:27
of killers doesn't sound as as like easy to say no um so they said that he had a
00:33:33
lust for bloody killings and reasoning that defied the conventional beliefs about murder at the time however while
00:33:39
they believe this individual to have been the man who' called on Francis earlier that evening they were still no
00:33:45
closer to identifying him which is interesting that they immediately thought it must be that guy that stopped
00:33:51
by looking for Francis which I'm like I get it I get why you're thinking like you at least want to talk to that guy
00:33:57
right but I'm like I wouldn't like totally pin it on him yet that could just be like a friend yeah no while
00:34:02
investigators struggled to make literally any progress in this case the Press weren't as quick to let the story
00:34:08
go as they had been in the Josephine's murder well especially now that it's happened twice yeah unlike the Josephine
00:34:14
Ross killing which everyone assumed at the time was a one-time murder this case now suggested that there would or could
00:34:20
be more brutal deaths until the killer was caught right in fact the Press really did it really didn't help the
00:34:26
matter or do anything to ease the feelings of helplessness felt by the women of Chicago at the time because
00:34:32
they published an interview with francis's roommate Viola Butler who insisted Francis had no enemies and
00:34:39
Butler said quote you just couldn't be jealous of Francis she never gave anyone reason to be and the portrait of Francis
00:34:45
that Viola painted with reporters was one of a chased much loved and deeply respectable woman right she said quote
00:34:53
Francis was not much on going out she knitted and did fancy work she was self-effacing hardworking and
00:34:58
Cooperative oh and if someone like Francis Brown who by all accounts sounds like this [ __ ] ideal like amazing
00:35:07
human being friend human worker woman just everything if she could meet her end this way like some brutal evil evil
00:35:16
stranger could come in and kill her this way then no one's safe in Chicago at this point so that's when we get into my
00:35:25
least favorite thing to talk about which is the murder of a child yeah uh just want to warn you that's what we're going
00:35:32
to talk about next now the unsolved murders of Josephine Ross and fr Francis Butler had everyone in Chicago on edge
00:35:39
obviously with a growing demand for police to show some evidence of progress it was really one of those where a lot
00:35:45
of pressure was put on them obviously yeah to catch this killer but they were not taking it as a one of the best
00:35:54
instances I think personally of like so much pressure being put on a police force and them handling it completely
00:36:04
perfectly and not sinking to the pressure to just nail someone is the deli murder case yes yes as frustrating
00:36:12
as it was to wait for so long and how as a totally outside person not as like a family member or anything like that I
00:36:18
can't imagine how they felt but everything was kept so close to the chest in that investigation and they
00:36:25
they bided their time and they built case and they took care like I think that was a very good example of like I
00:36:32
know there's a lot of pressure here and I know everyone wants all this information but we cannot trickle it out
00:36:38
like you got to just wait until we are able to give it to you and I think that's such a good way to and it the
00:36:44
results spoke for themselves they were able to close it AB so this though was the exact opposite they could not handle
00:36:51
the pressure they could not handle the criticism they couldn't handle any of it and it wasn't even that long they just
00:36:56
couldn't handle it right but unfortunately there was a very growing demand for them to show any kind of
00:37:03
progress at all and little did they know however that the recent rash of violence
00:37:09
was going to reach a pretty [ __ ] horrifying Peak here on the evening of January 6th 1946 less than a month after
00:37:17
the Brown murder Helen degnan tucked her six-year-old daughter Suzanne into bed and kissed her good night before saying
00:37:23
goodbye to her husband Jim who was headed to awake that evening with plans to return home later that night when Jim
00:37:30
Degan returned home around 11:00 p.m. he took the neighbor dogs out for a walk which I was like that was really nice of
00:37:36
him then returned home and got ready for bed and he mentioned later that at this
00:37:41
time Suzanne who was six again was going through a phase of of having accidents you know wetting the bed so Jim and
00:37:48
Helen had gotten into a habit of checking on her before they the last one of them went to bed just to try to avoid
00:37:54
any accidents bring her to the bathroom let her go kind they just kind of like woke her up right and he said quote she
00:38:00
awakened that night and we were talking and fooling and joking with her oh Jim later recalled of the last time he saw
00:38:07
his daughter he said with Suzanne having gone to the bathroom and sent back to bed he and Helen also retired for the
00:38:14
evening but were awoken a short time later when Helen said she heard what she said she can't be sure but she thinks
00:38:21
she heard her daughter crying okay she said she didn't want to disturb her daughter's sleep and then she kind of
00:38:28
rationalized that it was probably just the upstairs dogs that she was hearing cuz she said she was like out of it yeah
00:38:33
so she went back to sleep okay it almost kind of sounds like she thought her daughter was like crying in her sleep
00:38:38
like having a weird dream or something and then she was like actually you know what I think they're the dogs
00:38:43
like her up so Jim woke up the next morning around 6:30 a.m. and began starting getting ready for the day and
00:38:49
he finished shaving and went down the hall to Suzanne's room and found the door closed um he assumed you know she
00:38:55
was still asleep so he opened the door and he was very surprised because he didn't find her his daughter in bed
00:39:02
right um and he said what was more alarming was that the window which had only been open a crack the night before
00:39:08
was now wide open oh no hoping their daughter was just playing some trick Jim and Helen sent their other daughter
00:39:14
Betty upstairs to their neighbor's apartment to search while they checked each room on the floor of their house
00:39:20
together with the neighbors the flynns the family searched the entire house but Suzanne was nowhere to be found and Jim
00:39:26
wasted no time he called the police right away in 1945 things were different a missing
00:39:34
child quote unquote wouldn't have raised the kinds of alarms that it raises now a
00:39:40
lot of police precincts at that time would just be like oh they're probably playing a trick right they probably just
00:39:45
run away they'll probably be back by supper time don't worry about it like it was very weirdly normal for them to just
00:39:51
not be alarmed by this right and they'd be like oh don't worry about it they'll be back by dinner but Jim Degan was a
00:39:57
person people respected and he had some Renown because he was an executive with the office of price Administration oh
00:40:05
okay wow so he used this influence to call in a favor with local law enforcement and the FBI I mean I would
00:40:11
too I absolutely that [ __ ] like so soon after the call was placed the dean home was crawling with
00:40:19
detectives and FBI agents all very eager to solve this case and find this little
00:40:23
girl before the Press was able to make a big story out of this whole thing now despite their best efforts to keep the
00:40:30
Press at Bay that day by 10:00 a.m. the house and sidewalk out front were crawling with reporters and
00:40:36
photographers just trying to break the story that's so [ __ ] up because of the intense public scrutiny over how
00:40:42
investigators were handling the Ross and brown murders already among other recent
00:40:46
crimes like it's not like those were the only two there were other crimes that they were bumbling and not handling
00:40:51
right believe they investigators were intent on taking their time to comb every inch of the scene and avoid any
00:40:58
further blunders or criticism they were like let's do this right now outside the
00:41:03
house just below suzan's window or bedroom window investigators found a wooden ladder that appeared to be the
00:41:10
means by which the kidnapper had entered the home this reminds me of like the Lindberg baby I was just going to say um
00:41:16
yeah so they were able to get through it by the open window is what they assumed
00:41:20
yeah a cursory search of the girl's bedroom turned up really nothing unusual at first there was no sign of any blood
00:41:26
it didn't appear there was like a giant struggle nothing was broken like fallen over right but on the floor beside the
00:41:32
bed detectives found a handwritten note on a thin piece of paper resembling a discarded tissue and when it was
00:41:39
unfolded the note was discovered to be a ransom note oh no but it said get $20,000 ready and wait for word don't
00:41:47
not notify FBI or police bills and fives and tens okay but it's like it doesn't say where when how to deliver this money
00:41:56
right wait just get the money and wait the note was covered in an oily substance and on the back the kidnapper
00:42:03
had written a postcript that said burn this for her safety what now it was obviously too late to avoid contacting
00:42:10
the police or FBI but Jim degnan nonetheless proceeded to gather the money he was like I'm going to meet
00:42:16
these demands the problem though was like I said there was no information to contact the kidnapper where to deliver
00:42:23
the money any information to cooperate stay around and wait so without any other options and he's not just going to
00:42:29
sit around he was like [ __ ] this no my six-year-old ising Jim Dean went on a local radio station WQ to indicate his
00:42:36
willingness to cooperate with the kidnapper and plead for his daughter's safe return yeah he said if you have any
00:42:41
sympathy or understanding in your heart you will return the child to the family he said please let me know what I can do
00:42:47
how I can contact you I'll give you the money I'll do anything to get my child back if you harm her God will repay you
00:42:54
please please do not harm her oh God which like honestly makes me have a ball in my throat of like
00:43:00
oh so the Press cover coverage in degnan's radio broadcast prompted a wave of responses so some people were
00:43:07
reporting tips and of course there were other pieces of absolute [ __ ] garbage claiming to be the kidnapper wanting to
00:43:14
get the money that's so gross you have to be the lowest [ __ ] form of human being to do that [ __ ] I say it every
00:43:20
time but you got to be the lowest [ __ ] form no it's so true like congratulations you're going to claim
00:43:26
that you kid terrestrial sixy old and you didn't but none of them prove credible even the tips so just
00:43:34
[ __ ] and honestly unfortunately none of it would matter by the end of the day later that evening around 700 p.m. and
00:43:41
this is very gruesome two detectives were searching the area around the dean home when they
00:43:47
noticed that noticed that the dirt around a nearby manhole cover looked Disturbed uh it looked like somebody had
00:43:53
recently tried to access the sewer yeah when they removed the cover they shin their flashlights down into the sewer
00:43:59
and they saw what they first thought was a doll's head floating on top of some debris in the water below however when
00:44:06
they got a closer look they realized to their abject horror that they had discovered Suzanne degnan's severed head
00:44:15
in a sewer oh my God she was six oh my God taken out of her bed and they thought it was a dolls Oh my God it's
00:44:23
awful oh that makes me want to throw up just because see a picture of suzan she's just C so cute investigators and
00:44:30
volunteers comb the sewers in streets above and eventually found a ton of other dismembered body parts oh my God
00:44:37
so she had been completely dismembered which is truly Unthinkable like truly Unthinkable I don't even have words I
00:44:49
don't even have words nothing about this reminds you of the Ross not at all and Brown case not at all nothing not the
00:44:57
victim type not the way in which she was not the yeah the fact that she was abducted not the way in which she was
00:45:03
killed nothing The Ransom note The Ransom note and also like it's like did you even look at the handwriting between
00:45:09
the ransom note and the they do message left on the wall mhm now oh my God oh my
00:45:16
God that poor family I can't even fathom I can't even fathom that's six-year-old
00:45:23
and for the parents to be like oh yeah like we woke her up around you know a little after 11 to take her to the
00:45:29
bathroom we were joking with her laughing having a great time and you had no idea that put her back to bed you
00:45:36
ever saw her like oh that's gutr you're just putting her in her bed in your home
00:45:42
you're supposed to be safe there her bed is supposed to be safe and like you live
00:45:46
in an apartment building you never suspect that some up they had the ladder exactly it was just going to say oh God
00:45:53
so the discovery that Suzanne Deon had been murdered was obviously the worst possible outcome imaginable um to
00:46:01
everyone including investigators for very obvious reasons obviously but also because it gave the Press another
00:46:07
Sensational story that would quickly they were going to tie it back to like even with a like even just using their
00:46:15
failure to solve the case right tying it back to Ross and brown murders like even
00:46:19
if there was no similarities they were going to be like see they can't do anything yeah and in fact the next which
00:46:25
this is what's so frustrating is at first first it's like the Press didn't even give investigators time to do good
00:46:31
police work no and it's like yeah the police should have an investigator should have been able to handle the
00:46:37
pressure and should have been able to just put their nose to the grindstone and do good police work catch the actual
00:46:43
people 100% if that's on them but the Press has to take a little bit of this sprunt here for putting a [ __ ] ton of
00:46:51
undo press pressure on them and not allowing them to solve these cases they're both equal parts of the [ __ ]
00:47:00
recipe where no one gets any justice so in fact the next morning the gruesome horrific Discovery dominated the
00:47:09
headlines of all five major Chicago papers with each giving a very detailed account of the discovery oh wow
00:47:17
referring to the murder as quote even too horrible for a maniac and referring to the killer as quote The Mad Butcher
00:47:23
of Ken Kenmore Avenue among other things uh whether they were simply doing their
00:47:29
Duty by reporting the news which of course we can all say like you know an informed public is a you know is a good
00:47:35
thing sure um or whether they were riling up the public with Sensational coverage of the a awful case which is
00:47:41
also what was happening yeah the reporting elicited a remarkable response just hours after the news broke two
00:47:49
citizens called The Chicago Tribune to separately offer $500 rewards for the arrest conviction and execution of
00:47:57
Suzanne's killer wow now people were like ready for blood like people which I would also be that way you dis member a
00:48:05
six-year-old I mean yeah you got to go yeah you got to go that's what I'm like go for it that's you got to go like I
00:48:11
don't I don't I'm going to turn my back but you got to go like this whoever did this to Suzanne degnan on site now
00:48:20
immediately I would be thinking this is a totally unrelated case though like that's the thing 100% you're nothing
00:48:28
about this is is related not one thing totally outside of them but as far as the Chicago Police and administration
00:48:34
were concerned the brutal seemingly ritualistic murders of Josephine Ross and Francis Brown were bad enough
00:48:41
obviously but the kidnapping and murder of a child whose dismembered body was then dumped in the sewer raised public
00:48:48
alarm to new heights whether they were connected or not oh definitely like it was just like people are going to throw
00:48:53
this all at us together and anticipating a major public outcry and demand that the killer be brought to Justice
00:49:00
immediately investigators and Patrol officers fanned right out across the neighborhood searching for any clues
00:49:07
they could which is good at first the most compelling lead at the time was that and this just like hurts my heart
00:49:15
was that coal dust had been discovered on the bottom of bottoms of Suzanne's feet oh her little like bare feet yeah
00:49:22
leading detectives to assume she'd at least been in if not been killed killed in one of the cellers in the
00:49:28
neighborhood cuz that's where you will find Cold dust oh God taken out of her bed in the middle of the night and
00:49:34
killed in a seller like no I genuinely can't like this doesn't ites get my brain can't I can't even
00:49:42
like assuming her abductor had been known to her and lived nearby that's what they were going off of because who
00:49:49
else climbs into a child's window at night they were assuming that they had to and it didn't seem like there was a
00:49:54
huge struggle and like they knew where the bedroom was it seemed like or like like some familiarity right because she
00:50:01
had a sister too like she did so it seems like there was a little familiar I understand why they were going off of
00:50:07
that um officers began a houset toh house search of the coal sellers in the houses around the degnon house oh that's
00:50:14
just so so sad oh it's awful it's awful horrible and in the basement of a house on winthrip street just one block block
00:50:22
from the Dean House investigators found what they believe to be quote the murder
00:50:27
room really now among the discoveries made in this particular basement were four large tubs blood stains on the col
00:50:35
bin a bloody push cart and several lockers that held residents belongings one of which had been broken open and
00:50:43
had contained a hacks saww and several garment bags that matched those in which the body parts had been
00:50:49
wrapped in a floor drain investigators also found pieces of Flesh and strands of blond blond hair that matched suan oh
00:50:58
God this gets worse and worse yeah oh my God and this is me giving you as as not detailed of an overview as I
00:51:09
can now obviously certain that they had found the scene of the murder detective sent for the building superintendent
00:51:16
because this is a building so this is a shared space yeah those lockers that they found those things in are residence
00:51:22
lockers where like everyone puts stuff yeah so finding this great but now you have to talk to everyone in this
00:51:29
building and who had access here it might not even just be tenants who had access here yeah it could be workers
00:51:34
could be anybody day Tod sent for the building superintendent Hector ver verberg a Belgian immigrant widely known
00:51:42
and well liked around the neighborhood okay um Hector said that he knew Suzanne only by sight and he'd ever only spoken
00:51:50
to her just to say maybe hello but that he was but he did say I'm friendly with all the neighborhood children and he
00:51:56
would and find and fix toys for the ones whose families couldn't afford to buy them toys wow so he's literally like the
00:52:02
neighborhood Santa Claus yeah he would literally like find toys fix them up and hand them out to kids who couldn't
00:52:08
afford them wow when asked about how someone could have accessed the basement Hector said I don't know anything about
00:52:15
it anybody could get in oh according to Hector only he and the tenants in the building had keys to the basement but he
00:52:21
said but the windows were always open anybody could get in he break right in and especially if this [ __ ] broke
00:52:27
into a window through an open window to get this this young girl right they would have easily went through another
00:52:33
window to do something like they're not opposed to going through open Windows where they don't belong right now given
00:52:39
his access to the building police became immediately suspicious of Hector I don't
00:52:43
know about that and escorted him back to the apart his apartment where they discovered a standard siiz saw and
00:52:49
hatchet with nothing on them a lot of people have saws which were taken into evidence they had they showed no signs
00:52:55
of having been used in a crime medal yeah um at the station detectives began interrogating Hector who was initially
00:53:01
very Cooperative but then became decidedly less so as the night wore on and it became very clear that they were
00:53:07
trying to make him a suspect meanwhile Patrol officers were still canvasing the neighborhood and started speaking to
00:53:13
Neighbors about Hector all of whom were shocked to hear that he was even being considered a
00:53:20
suspect Yeah by all accounts Hector was quoted quote an indulgent parent and grandfather oh and hardly seem the
00:53:27
killer type one neighbor told the Press later that day quote he just couldn't be
00:53:31
the murderer why he loves children he has seven grandchildren of his own and he'd spent every minute with him that
00:53:38
with them that he could he couldn't have killed that little girl no like they were just like no no it doesn't sound
00:53:43
like it at all the more investigators learned about Hector the less likely it seemed that he was a sadistic killer of
00:53:49
a six-year-old girl he was very actively involved in his community engaged regularly with friends and neighbors and
00:53:56
according to to those who knew him best he was quote harmless as a fly wow now more importantly though Hector's wife
00:54:02
told police her husband always went to bed at 10: p.m. and he had indeed been in bed around that time on the night
00:54:08
Suzanne was taken from her room yeah and also many other people in the neighborhood reported seeing a
00:54:14
suspicious bareheaded heavys set man either parked or driving slowly through the neighborhood in a gray car around
00:54:21
2:00 a.m. a description that didn't match Hector that's such a creepy description
00:54:26
I know I don't know it's just like you put it all together at 2 a.m. bald heavy set man driving a gray car slowly
00:54:33
through a neighborhood and you have to think like this person climbed up a ladder and took a child out of their bed
00:54:39
and then went right back down that letter ladder like yeah a six-year-old is like a pretty grown child you know
00:54:45
absolutely like I don't think I just don't think an older man did this no I don't think again I don't know what
00:54:51
shape Hector is in or anything like that but but he's like a grandfather Seven Grand I don't know it just doesn't feel
00:54:56
right now but then you hear that that description and you're like I feel like that could be him yeah it seems a little
00:55:01
right now A Coroner's inquest was held on January 9th where it was established that Suzanne's cause of death had been
00:55:07
strangulation wow and the disarticulation had been done with a large sharp knife postmortem um it had
00:55:14
not been done by a hacksaw or Hatchet which are the two things that were taken from Hector's house the corner told the
00:55:20
Press quote it was a very clean job with absolutely no signs of hacking as would
00:55:26
be evident if a dull instrument was used also several medical experts testified at the inquest saying the killer was
00:55:34
definitely someone that was familiar with anatomy and demonstrated expertise that one might have if they were a
00:55:40
butcher or a hunter oh wow and Jerry Kars from the coroner's office said quote the killer had to be an expert at
00:55:47
cutting meat because the body was separated at the joints oh God not even the a average doctor could be so
00:55:54
skillful it has to be a meat cutter so these medical experts are like it is a meat cutter that's so even just to think
00:56:01
about that detail it really is horrible to think of it that way oh God this is like this is a lot I know that's why I
00:56:08
had to separate this into two parts because even though the second part is mostly about you know what happened in
00:56:13
the investigation it's like this is a lot I'm like freaking out over here now despite the evidence pointing very much
00:56:20
away from Hector detectives remained solely focused on him as their Prime Suspect after
00:56:27
evidence he's not a butcher he's not a butcher and he has an alibi he has an alibi he has character PE Witnesses
00:56:34
they're all like nah and it's like his Alibi is just as good as one of the first guys in one of those murders that
00:56:40
his girlfriend was like no he was with me it's like his wife was like no he went to bed oh this gets worse no as if
00:56:47
to justify their focus detective Jack hanran told reporters quote in the furnace at Hector's apartment building
00:56:54
several small bones were also found which might have been from the arms of little Suzanne what
00:57:02
literally told reporters that a detective said to reporters we found little bones in this
00:57:11
man's furnace they might be this murder victim's little armb Bones on what [ __ ] grounds do you
00:57:18
have to say that because guess what no they're not what upon analysis the bones were [ __ ] animal bones
00:57:27
and the but that fact when it came out didn't receive any attention because detective Jack there had already been
00:57:33
like way in his maybe these are tiny little baby armb bones you think think about that like that's him literally
00:57:41
being like wow isn't that [ __ ] up like you have no [ __ ] basis to sit here and
00:57:47
suggest that these bones are from her arms who the [ __ ] are you you're a detective you don't know [ __ ] name one
00:57:54
of those bones seriously phone in the arm detective Jack i g [ __ ] guarantee you you can't do you think too that like
00:58:01
obviously infuriates me yeah obviously there's media pressure here but you also said this man is an immigrant I'm sure
00:58:06
racism played a part in this thank you for saying that because that does play into it 100% yes exactly it is
00:58:15
infuriating infuriating to think that this man went to reporters and said we found bones in the
00:58:23
furnace and before having any information about that you're supposed to say that [ __ ] you idiot like bones at
00:58:29
all but then to insinuate and then to just be like I don't know maybe they're Baby armb Bones I who's to say like it's
00:58:37
just like what where the [ __ ] did that come from like who even says that that's
00:58:41
insane like you're an idiot I want to like junk punch this man honestly I don't know where he is Jack Hanrahan
00:58:48
like I'm going to junk punch you someday but you were from the 40s so I was like
00:58:52
I think he's probably dead you've probably been junk punched but either way already I think you got Junk punched
00:58:58
exactly so life junk punched you I'm sure but they were animal bones but again no one no one got
00:59:07
that other thing no they're all just sitting there being like Oh my god did you hear did you hear about found arm
00:59:13
bones in his furnace like that's you you know that's what everybody's saying oh my God this poor man yeah so for their
00:59:19
part the Press did little to exercise any objectivity or practice responsible journalism at all at all frequently
00:59:26
mixing the gruesome details of the case with statements about Hector and emphasizing his immigrant status of
00:59:32
course I knew that was coming limited English language skills are you [ __ ] like what what the [ __ ] does that have
00:59:39
to do with anything if the man has good English skills or not doesn't matter that everyone around him thinks he's a
00:59:44
great guy and that he has seven grandchildren has an alibi has a wife that's willing to cooperate corroborate
00:59:50
his Alibi and look English is our first language and we just stumbled exactly are you [ __ ] kidding and collects
00:59:57
toys fixes them up and gives them to Children whose families cannot afford them yeah let's forget all that and just
01:00:03
be like well he's an immigrant what the [ __ ] okay yeah that definitely that thank you totally that's but isn't that
01:00:09
like genuinely so insane that some people's minds think like that like they will completely ignore that chunk of
01:00:17
information and just look at well he's an immigrant well he's an immigrant it's like okay and it's like okay literally
01:00:24
nothing to do with this but thank you so much playing and in the days after the murder James futel a neighbor of hectors
01:00:31
recalls how some people began to turn on Hector no he said quote one of the tenants in our building came rushing up
01:00:37
to me red-faced and wild-eyed declaring that they should have lynched him oh my God Jesus Christ and this is this is the
01:00:44
detectives and the press's fault yeah absolutely 100% And racist fault although he had been charged with any
01:00:51
crime whatsoever investigators continued to question and harass Hector and his wife demanding that he consent to a
01:00:58
polygraph examination when he refused and continued to protest cuz he's like what the [ __ ] I didn't do anything their
01:01:04
tactics became more aggressive and they attempted to beat a confession out of this grandfather my God however when
01:01:11
even a literal vicious beating failed to elicit a confession cuz he not ad to killing up
01:01:19
child beat the [ __ ] out of him still wouldn't confess cuz he's like I didn't kill a child I'm not going to agree to
01:01:25
it good for detectives released Hector and declared him to no longer be a suspect reasoning
01:01:31
that if he still denied any involvement after and this is what they said by the way they said if he denied any
01:01:38
involvement still after suffering such abuse he must be innocent that's what the detective said so they were
01:01:43
literally like after we like [ __ ] him up if he didn't say anything I guess he's innocent oh my God it's cool wow
01:01:50
what great police work the trauma just inflicted on this man and then you sent him back into community that you've now
01:01:56
tainted oh and it gets worse no no how so James futel that neighbor later told reporters quote I heard what they did to
01:02:04
Hector he had a shoulder separated that left him permanently disabled are you [ __ ] kidding me following his release
01:02:10
from custody he went straight to the hospital for treatment for his injuries that they inflicted upon him where he
01:02:16
told a nurse and this is a quote no I don't even want to know oh they hanged me up they blindfolded me I can't put up
01:02:23
my arms they are so sore they had handcuffed on me for hours and hours they threw me in a cell and blindfolded
01:02:29
me they handcuffed my hands behind my back and pulled me up on bars until my toes touched the floor I didn't eat I go
01:02:37
right to the hospital oh I am so sick anymore and I would have confessed to anything so what you're saying is that
01:02:44
they tortured this man like [ __ ] medieval style medieval style and even he said so he went through all that and
01:02:51
still was like I did not kill this little girl like I'm not admitting to it but even he said anymore and I would
01:02:57
have confessed to anything and that's what they were aiming for they didn't want to catch you
01:03:03
actually stole this baby out of their bed in the middle of the [ __ ] night strangled her in a dank basement and
01:03:11
dismembered her and threw her body parts into a [ __ ] sewer they just wanted everybody to stop being mean to
01:03:19
them by wrongfully detaining beating and trying to they were going to like this guy was going to go to death going kill
01:03:28
him yeah like that guy was going to get the death penalty and it's like they were going to kill this grandfather he
01:03:32
was either going to get the death penalty or any of those treatments to an elderly man could have killed him and
01:03:38
this should tell you that like I'm like how much they care about actually closing the case with the real person
01:03:45
who did it and how much they care about just having someone get the fall the fall for it so
01:03:51
that everybody stops being mean to them I'm like are we nearing the end of part one because this has truly been the most
01:03:58
we are nearing the end so holy [ __ ] the Chicago Police Department denied that any abuse had occurred of course but the
01:04:07
but Hector and his wife and another suspect who was briefly detained during this time filed a civil suit against
01:04:14
seven members of the department if you tell me that they didn't win this [ __ ] suit I'm leaving alleging
01:04:20
physical abuse false arrest and unlawful search and they won the night before the
01:04:24
Civil Trial was set to begin the Chicago Police Department settled for $220,000 so bada Boop you know exactly
01:04:33
what that means that's called hush money that's called yep we did it now shut the
01:04:37
[ __ ] up $20,000 obviously I know that was like a lot more back then and at $20,000
01:04:43
billions of dollars for what happened but that's split amongst two people first of all and they medieval tortured
01:04:50
this man are you [ __ ] kidding me now the flagrant abuse of suspects and Reckless release of information to the
01:04:57
Press because they were just leaking everything reflected the absolute desperation and frustration by the
01:05:03
investigators as the public outcry GRE grew louder the Ross and brown murders had been horrible and terrified the
01:05:09
women of Chicago but the murder of Suzanne degnan not only intensified local outrage but it also made a story
01:05:16
the story National interest at this point yeah under increasing pressure to solve the case detectives began
01:05:22
speculating and grasping at literally anything that even remotely resembled a clue to make it appear as though they
01:05:29
were making Headway in the case good police when the hector ver verberg Theory fell through they began
01:05:37
theorizing that at 74 pounds Suzanne would have been too heavy for one person to carry so there must have been two
01:05:43
kidnappers now so that's after they beat the [ __ ] out of an old band they said
01:05:47
actually now that I think about it they're like oops I guess there's two and not this
01:05:53
grandfather who we just beat death is so dark now in the meantime they continued
01:05:59
arresting and questioning various suspects including a man recently released from a psychiatric hospital and
01:06:06
a local black man who was subjected to a polygraph exam but was ruled out when he
01:06:10
passed the test they also had like no evidence to arrest him which yeah this police force is racist as [ __ ] despite
01:06:17
their best efforts in massive amount of resources directed at the investigation cuz there was so many resources that's
01:06:24
the other really sad thing about that is they had all the resources yeah and they
01:06:29
were using them very poorly um after spending five months chasing down more than 3,000 tips conducting over 300
01:06:36
interviews performing 170 polygraph examinations detectives were no closer to finding who killed Suzanne degnan and
01:06:45
out of the lead out of completely out of leads at this point and with no suspects
01:06:50
to question investigators were desperate for any opportunity to close the case even even if the opportunity really
01:06:57
wasn't a good fit and that's where we're going to end for part one that has truly been one of the most
01:07:05
gruesome stories I think you've ever told yeah obviously so important to tell like no matter what because terrifying
01:07:13
one holy [ __ ] but the fact that at the end of this I just I have the feeling in
01:07:17
my gut based on like your looks when you say certain things that Justice is absolutely not going to get served here
01:07:23
I'm so irate yeah it's now like this is wow I need you to cover a case where people don't get brutalized like try to
01:07:33
give you I'll try to give you I know I think I said last time I was going to do some kind of pal cleanser sorry that's
01:07:38
okay I mean it's morbid so something people are expecting it I'll do something a little uh haunted haunted we
01:07:45
need a haunted I'll give you a haunted for my next one I'll take a moment after part two that is yeah no but the the way
01:07:52
you put this together is interesting and compelling what's fascinating and like Dave said this too we both we went into
01:07:59
this thinking one thing and I had no idea really the ins and outs of this like the politics of this and everything
01:08:06
that ended up shaking out in the wash yeah it's very you're like Oh I thought I knew who the lipstick killer was and
01:08:12
you don't yeah and I don't the well maybe I do but I a but I thought I knew someone else as the lipstick killer okay
01:08:19
I've always heard of the lipstick killer but I never knew any of the details like
01:08:24
whatsoever for thought there was like lipstick messages at every scene like I I think I just assumed that throughout
01:08:29
hearing about it wait until we kind of touch on that message again in part two no part two has a lot of [ __ ] that
01:08:36
you're going to be like I'm sorry what I get to the point where I don't even know
01:08:39
what to say sometimes with like the complete no that it's like me and the Lizzy Bo and I again no I get to the
01:08:47
point where I don't know what to say though because of the complete just like so asinine sometimes that you're just
01:08:53
like I don't have words for that we're going to be talking about a lot of of mishandling and a lot of shady ass
01:09:03
investigative work if you can even call it that that makes us so angry I feel like like there's a myriad of things
01:09:09
that make us angry in a case but like the mishandling and the level to which some people mishandle a case is just you
01:09:16
sit there like how did you even feel good about this yeah that's the thing like how do you rest your head at night
01:09:22
and how do you go like Poe for the pictures like we we got like [ __ ] offs it always reminds me of West memphi
01:09:32
3 when because that is so infuriating when they just [ __ ] patted themselves on the back and were like we got them
01:09:37
and it's like three kids to prison yeah um but actually I forgot Mikey just let me know cuz I never know our schedule
01:09:44
that um we do have a there is a pallet cleanser in between these two cases so you you heard the one two girls one
01:09:51
ghost Lizzie bordon oh my God so it was like a nice for that's between so like okay in so you'll hear me go no so no
01:10:01
all right well with all of that being said and you're welcome for the pallet cleanser we hope that you keep listening
01:10:06
and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird as the Chicago Police Department when all this [ __ ] was going down
01:10:13
because woo oh hell no oh my [Music] God [Music]