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hey weirdos I'm Elena I'm Ash and this is morbid [Music] yeah we are on we are on part three of
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the Jack the Ripper series and I'm questioning your psyche at this point yeah this has been a this has been the
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longest research I've done really because I started much earlier than I normally do with research yeah because I
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knew it was going to be a very daunting very intricate kind of thing uh but I feel like I have been in White Chapel in
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the 1800s for literally like months at this point you essentially have Elena has um a whole casual 40 pages between
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Parts one and three yeah and I'm nowhere near done and so yeah like yeah I'm only
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on the double event here I'm not even through I've not even through all of the cases here you got like more like Drew
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is a Capricorn but I'm like no you're not because like you are just done oh you're not you are just like the epitome
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of a cap like every part of Capricorn energy like you have all of it yeah I really uh I really like I lean into my
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sign really hard I don't even mean to it it really is who I am it's that that [ __ ] that solar system that was
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happening when the the whatever configuration it was in when I was born it was real powerful in that moment
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because I got every ounce of it was intense well you also have Virgo in your chart which I think only makes you a
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more important person when it comes to work so yeah listen to me look at you I know a couple signs you're like I know
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some stuff about astrology I drink things and I know things there you go oh I miss Game of Thrones speaking of I
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miss Game of Thrones imagine if they redid the last season imagine imagine if they just like said oops we were kidding
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imagine if they made it good at the end that'd be fun that'd be awesome speaking
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of good shows though like actually good shows I just started and I realized I'm very behind the curve because what I
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didn't realize was that this show that I'm about to talk about peaky blinders in case you were wondering it came out
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in like 2013. yeah I was still in any school still happening yeah they just like really draw out those Seasons I
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didn't realize that until recently either that's funny that you brought that up I had no idea and I know I've
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been wanting to watch it since 2013 but it's been one of those that I'm like yeah I'll watch that and then I just
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haven't but last night we were like oh all of our shows are kind of like floating just floating or like they're
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week to week and we've already like you know because we we only have a precious few moments to watch shows at night when
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the kids are asleep so we're like What do we do let's make a choice pick right and last night John was like should we
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start another one and I was like peaky blinders let's do it there you go and we did it and I realized that not only is
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this show [ __ ] awesome and I'm so excited to be completely entrenched in it but two it takes place around the
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same time period of this in the same place yeah like only like 30 or 40 years after yeah it's not that far off and
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it's like definitely got the vibe and I was watching it last night being like I cannot escape this I am just not helping
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myself at all like no escapism for me oh I am like an escape artist when it comes
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to like walking away from I have to like in order to sleep in like function I have to it wasn't great on my on my uh
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on your my dreams last night wasn't great because it was very like intertwined with like the Catherine
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Meadows one that I'm going to talk about today and it was a lot I can't research
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at night anymore yeah it's hard like for that reason and I you know me I'm like a
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very like spiritual like spiritual lady so if I get weird dreams that throws me off for like my whole day and then you
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know I'll just like start crying in the middle of the day for no reason I will say that um if you have no other reason
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to watch it watch it for Killian Murphy okay uh that's what I was in it for there you go the time period of course
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and Killian Murphy we're like big selling points to me of course and they they gave they gave me everything I
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needed I've been like a Killian Murphy had since like 28 Days Later which I realized came out when Ash was like five
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in that yeah took me for a ride which means that you I think I was like six so you were 16. so 16 year old Elena was
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standing Philly and Murphy that would like because now I like obviously we're 10 years apart always like that's how
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the time works that is how time works it's funny because I don't feel that far away from you in age anymore so hearing
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that like you were 16 when I was six I'm like that doesn't line up no and when you get older the time difference
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doesn't it's not that big yeah like how like like yeah older dudes and older ladies can date younger dudes and ladies
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exactly later on in life and it's not so weird but yeah it's just like the time difference just doesn't make as much of
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a difference because you're not as like in such a different form of your life anymore exactly we're both in like very
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I mean even still we're not very different but like very similar faces exactly and that's our life and that is
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our life everyone so go watch peaky blinders if you haven't if you have which I know a lot of you have because I
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tweeted about it like the uh when I was watching it and everybody was like oh my
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God I love that show people are obsessed I'm here I'm ready to talk to you about
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it and I'm excited to be here so I just started Desperate Housewives so we're in
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different places I mean I don't even I think it I think Desperate Housewives came out when I was
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probably like five probably so it's funny to watch now it's also like sometimes you're like oh you could say
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that back then yeah there's always that but that show is good I never watched that it's original I don't think you
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would like it yeah never really was something I wanted to watch but I'm glad you are thanks I'm glad you're watching
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peaky blinders all right thank you that's something I do want to eventually watch I'm just not there yet there you
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go yeah and that's our TV schedule that's our TV sketch guys so I'm excited to watch peaky blinders with you guys
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hopefully somebody else I think a couple people are like I'm gonna start it too now and I was like hell yeah let's all
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started together be in this together let's go for it uh it's basically just gonna get me until stranger things too
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like it's one of those like I needed a good show that was gonna get me back to the next stranger thing because that is
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gonna take like years to come out right I don't know I don't know how it usually
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works though that is but we'll see it's like I need it now I'm in a place of freaking
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I just feel alone in the world without and I feel like yeah you're not alone with you for Euphoria I know that
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because a lot of people watch that oh no I mean I feel alone in the world it's not here like yeah we're all alone I was
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gonna say you're suffering together we are so immensely so there you go all right
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uh this is uh uh we're gonna get we're gonna get into it today she says yeah I yep I do because these this is
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gonna get rougher and rougher from here on out it's gonna get like so bad yeah so bad it's been really bad it has
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it's getting so bad I mean one of these is one of the most horrific scenes I've ever read about I'm glad that I'm not
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going into this blindly I can't imagine going into the case having no idea exactly yeah even even so
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um I think when you hear details you're gonna be like oh oh that's already happened oh for sure and I can see that
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coming up yeah next this is a rough one and um the next one we'll talk about in part four is of course the the very
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Infamous Mary Jane Kelly scene which I think a lot of people have seen that photograph
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I forgot that that photograph existed until all of a sudden I was like oh that is a real thing and that's a real person
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and that's the real thing that happened tucked into like the back of your head and then you remember yeah so we'll be
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talking about um Mary Jane Kelly in part four but today we're going to be talking about the
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double event which is when he killed twice in one night very close to each other we're gonna talk about it I have a
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lot of theories I have a lot of questions I have a lot of like hmm so let's get into it let's do it shall we
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we shall so we just the last time we when we left you we were talking about how uh John or Jack Pfizer leather apron
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he had been brought in but he had been cleared had like multiple Alibis and he said I didn't come forward when when my
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name was first brought up I went on the run because I thought people were going to hang me without even wondering
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whether I actually did it or not because the media had like put it out way too soon which Fair because it probably
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would have happened because there were several times when people thought that police were bringing in a suspect of
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Jack which at this point he's just called The White Chapel murderer or the mutilation series they were calling it
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he isn't even Jack yet he hasn't even named himself yet well I haven't even got there oh know we haven't even gotten
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to the letters because they haven't come yet this part or next part it's going to
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be next part okay uh but that's when we're going to talk about the letters him naming himself like the whether we
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think it's a hoax or not those letters the different suspects the different theories the different ins and outs and
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and also Mary Jane Kelly uh but for this one leather apron's been cleared but the
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last victim was Annie Chapman and White Chapel has lost their Collective [ __ ] after this I mean it was Annie Chapman's
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murder was horrifying there are still some discrepancies as to her time of death though that were kind of
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complicating the investigation because at this point they're just trying to get anything they can because they know that
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see these are connected right they don't know when the next one's gonna hit they're trying to stop it before it hits
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and they don't have a lot to work with so Dr Phillips Dr Bagster Phillips our guy our guy uh he had stated that when
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he saw Annie Chapman 6 30 a.m he believed that she had been dead for about two hours okay
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but if we put that next to the witness accounts that morning it doesn't really make sense so someone must have been off
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um that so there was a man named John Richardson who lived at 29 hambury street where the murder occurred and the
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body was discovered outside in that yard and he said he came out into the yard at
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4 45 a.m and he did not see a body now if you walked out into that yard she was right there you weren't gonna definitely
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see her Albert cadosh heard someone yell no we talked about him at 5 25 a.m and then at 5 28 a.m he said he heard
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someone fall against the fence between his yard at 27 Hanbury Street and 29 Hanbury but then we have Mrs Elizabeth
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Long's witness account she was the first one that I talked about in the last episode that she saw Annie Chapman with
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a man who quote looked like a foreigner in a deer stalker hat we were like what does that mean I'm like what exactly
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does that mean Elizabeth uh but that was at 5 30 a.m huh so remember Albert kadosh said at 5 25 he heard no right he
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heard someone fall at 5 28 and now Elizabeth Long sang at 5 30 30 two minutes later she sees Annie Chapman
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just talking to this guy that floor even going into the yard that is the problem
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with eyewitness accounts exactly so Dr Phillips estimate of death is already shot to ship if he came at 6 30 and said
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she was already dead two hours ago but an hour ago she was talking to someone or was she so that doesn't make any
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sense and also now we have to question how Mrs long could have seen her at all like have she really seen her because
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who's off here is it Albert kadosh which I I'm thinking Albert might be the one that's off I think Elizabeth long did
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see her oh you think and I think she saw her at that time because she did mention
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something about hearing the clock chime okay again she could be off she couldn't
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walk off because Albert may have just been off by 15 minutes because that's not that crazy to think about that like
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he was like oh it was five you know 20 whatever when I heard it maybe he heard the clock chime too and he got the wrong
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like amount of Chimes maybe he looked at something and thought it was this time I
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feel like he's a little more off than Elizabeth alone I could see that because Elizabeth long was like very adamant
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right the clock chimed 5 30 I heard it I looked at her I know that's her she was
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talking to this guy and it's a little different too because she's probably like out and about going somewhere and
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we can assume maybe she had to be there at a certain time exactly whereas he's coming home and just kind of like is at
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home yeah he doesn't have I don't think he had anything that he was like really thinking about doing so she was on her
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way to the markets like the spitalfield market so she actually had somewhere that she had to be so I think time was
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more of like at the essence to her now of course nailing time of death is hard even today so there are a lot of factors
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and back then it was just like way jankier they just like threw a dart on a dartboard of times they were like sure
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this works but Dr Phillips did acknowledge that the massive blood loss paired with the cold air that morning
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she was killed definitely could have [ __ ] up his estimate too so he wasn't sitting there saying like two hours for
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sure he was just saying that I think he was like within two hours I think and he
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was saying all of those elements could have [ __ ] up my estimate I am not holding myself to it so not even he was
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holding himself to it okay but still it didn't really help with the investigation that much and besides
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besides all this there was this weird Obsession for a bit where police were assuming this killer was an escaped
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inmate from an asylum I could see why they would think that because of the brutality but why else
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see and that's the thing so it's weird to me it's wild to me actually that they assumed that at any point that this
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person was insane because the care and the meticulousness with which these murders were carried out does not ring
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as someone in the throes of insanity or someone who is not a sane clinically person could do it rings to me very evil
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and very focused uh and like know which what they're doing it doesn't calculate it yeah it doesn't feel like somebody
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escaped from an asylum this had the Metropolitan Police Force concentrating for a long period of time
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on escaped or recently released Asylum patients and to me it feels like a massive waste of time I think that was
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like real dumb also just really using people like that escape goats oh yeah that was like it was a very low hanging
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fruit yeah and they went like really hard at it for a while and I was like guys you gotta stop yeah it's not there
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right it's not there this is like a way this is not a careless person so then this crazy Theory popped up and
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I just had to talk about it because I was like what this is called the American doctor
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Theory now this Theory came about when the coroner which this coroner in particular that I'm going to talk about
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when Baxter was not a medical doctor so he was not Dr Wen Baxter he was a voted in coroner he mentioned during Annie
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Chapman's inquest on September 26 1888 that he believed and I quote it was someone who had considerable anatomical
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knowledge and skill there were no meaningless cuts the organ has been taken away by one who knew where to find
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it what difficulties he would have could have to contend against and how he should use his knife so as to abstract
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the organ without injury to it no unskilled person could know where to find it or have recognized it when it
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was found which I agree but he Then followed this up by saying he knew and believed that there was a
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market for these types of organs the black market and he relayed a story that recently the sub-curator recently at
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that point uh the sub-curator of the pathological Museum told him that a few months earlier an American had called
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him up on the phone and asked him if he could buy some specimens because he said
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he was writing a paper that was about to be published and he was going to be sending he wanted to like send specimens
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to some of these places the curator was like no we can't do that we're not in that business and this American who's
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like they're claiming was a doctor medical student said he would pay a ton of money for them and he had already
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made this request to another institution apparently he said now when Baxter then
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suggested on the record that maybe someone had heard about this random American who was allegedly requesting to
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buy specimens from the pathological museum for a pretty penny at that in that this person who heard this took it
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upon themselves to procure some of those specimens to sell to him because heard you can make a lot of money I'm gonna
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get some of these okay I'm sorry no my good sir that does not no no no no no I was like okay nope and he said this
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on the record which of course is gonna get everybody like going crazy this doesn't make any sense
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oh no no in so no no no no in response to this the Lancet which was a weekly medical journal published um that they
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like published details of the cases but they were the only ones who would publish details because they were a
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medical journal uh they published a warning and they were very dissatisfied with Baxter's Theory they said quote in
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our opinion a grave error in judgment was made by the coroner's informant in this respect the public mind which also
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can I just say this is so relevant to now like when you read this you're like wow we haven't changed yeah the public
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mind ever too ready to cast much uh excuse me ever too ready to cast mud at legitimate research
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hmm will heartily fail to be excited to a pitch of animosity against anatomists and curators which may take a long while
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to subside yeah it's still we're still working on it still doing that and what is equally deplorable the Revelation
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thus made by the coroner which so dramatically startled the public last Wednesday evening May probably lead to a
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diversion from the real track of the murderer and thus defeat rather than serve the ends of Justice we believe the
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story to be highly improbable although it may have a small basis of fact which will require the exercise of much common
00:19:05
sense to separate from The Sensational fiction that surrounds it so essentially it was a both [ __ ] theory he
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repeated this story he had no proof of this there was no like it was ridiculous he just wanted to say something it just
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didn't make sense to me nothing about these we talk about how you know these things were taken out meticulously and
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very carefully sure but that's a lot of [ __ ] work to go through through to get when you could technically if you're
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really just looking for organs to harvest it's like find somebody who's like at that point people were like
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dying on the streets it's like guys you're that doesn't make sense they're doing he's doing it too quickly and in
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two obvious places and leaving them in the mid like in the middle of the street why would he be doing that wouldn't he
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take them back somewhere right move them out of the way to not get caught well they need to keep doing this if you
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wanted to make more money would he not just take all of the organs or like as many as he can that's the thing it's
00:20:05
like I don't know I don't know about this that doesn't end here it makes no sense to me he didn't take an organ from
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everybody he didn't not from everybody still that that also doesn't make sense it doesn't as soon as they heard that a
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uterus was taken it was like this must be for the black market and it's like no I don't think so yeah also I don't know
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how like so he takes this uterus what's he doing with it right you can't just throw it like on ice and be like well
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maybe someone will buy this like they can't use that what do you think they're using that for like it doesn't make
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anything do you think that the real murderer took the uterus and like kept it that's what nobody understands do you
00:20:46
think nobody knows it could have been a trophy for him I think it seems like a lot of Easter trophies and do you think
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like you know how like people will buy all of these do you think he kept it in like an oddity like a jar formalin or
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something right yeah I mean it's it's a very high possibility or that he just tossed it somewhere and like just never
00:21:04
had to take it just took it to take it to [ __ ] with people who really knows that's the worst part of this now after
00:21:10
Annie Chapman there was a three-week lull so people started to get lulls into a sense of false security that was until
00:21:18
September 29th 1888. at 1am Lewis dim Schultz I believe it's DM Schultz I think actually Lewis diem
00:21:27
Schultz was coming back from work and he was taking a horse and carriage he was the steward of the international working
00:21:33
men's educational Club I think I mentioned it in part one at some point on the other side of the duck Fields
00:21:40
yard court around 40 Berner Street so the duckfield's yard was like this big Courtyard that there was all kinds
00:21:47
of things around it and one of these was that that club um he was cutting through duckfield's
00:21:53
yard and his horse wouldn't walk anymore and appeared scared it was like pulling
00:21:58
to one side clearly trying to avoid something and it was Pitch Black there wasn't one light in this car Courtyard
00:22:05
so it is literally the blackest black his horse isn't walking anymore and he's like what the [ __ ] is this animals know
00:22:11
so he lights a match and he and he sees a bundle in front of him on the ground he thought it was just like a tarp that
00:22:18
was rolled up so I think what it said was he took like um the whip that he had was for the horse because the worst and
00:22:24
he just like poked it but was like uh I don't really know what this is yeah but he jumps down he sees a woman lying on
00:22:30
the ground next to the wall of the club but he can barely see so he went into the club to grab a candle and two other
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men came out with him to go look back at who was on the ground when they all lit
00:22:42
matches to see they lifted her shoulders and head and she was completely limp when they held the lights to her they
00:22:49
found that this woman had her throat violently slashed there was blood all over the ground and pavement beneath her
00:22:56
they estimated about two quarts wow had flowed towards the door of the club beneath her hair was completely matted
00:23:04
with blood and mud she was holding a packet of breath fresheners in one hand and her I guess her hand was like still
00:23:10
a little clenched around it there was actually a myth that she was holding grapes in her right hand but that's not
00:23:17
true no grapes were found on oh I remember that for some reason I remember that piece yeah and there's a reason for
00:23:23
that because I think people there's a there's a sighting where like she was eating grapes okay so I think that
00:23:29
became something but that is a no report it's a no Coroner's report I remember when I wrote my silly paper for high
00:23:35
school like saying something about or like reading something about this yes because and you probably would have
00:23:40
written it because it's it yeah stated in a lot of sources as like this is in the report it's not oh man it is not in
00:23:46
the report It's So Random I know it's really frustrating when that happens because you're like what the [ __ ] yeah
00:23:50
and actually before I even go any further let me tell you because I found a couple of other books for you guys to
00:23:55
read how many books do you have at this point I am on seven okay so the newest one I found was uh Jack the Ripper
00:24:04
Scotland Yard investigates by Stuart P Evans and Donald rumbolow Donald rumbolow also did the complete Jack the
00:24:12
Ripper which is another book that I recommend uh the other one that I found was Jack the Ripper the definitive case
00:24:19
book by Richard Whittington Egan that one's really good because it kind of doesn't give you a blow by blow of the
00:24:26
case it goes into the different theories and the different like myths and the different things it kind of gives you a
00:24:33
more like um abstract a look at the case which is really interesting and fun so I
00:24:40
definitely recommend those and um I've been linking the other ones like the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's
00:24:46
victims by Robert Hume the Ripper code by Thomas tuffel Jack the Ripper in the case for Scotland Yard suspect by Robert
00:24:52
house and um the five by uh Hallie Ruben hold they're all really good they're all
00:25:00
tell like they all have different pieces of the puzzle so I highly recommend you
00:25:05
go read all of them because they're amazing and again I will link all of these summer reading brought to you by
00:25:10
Elena Summer Reading uh so no grapes no grapes she was wearing a long black coat
00:25:16
with red and white flowers pinned to it um trimmed the whole thing was trimmed with fur and um she was wearing a black
00:25:22
skirt a black bonnet and a like checkered neck scarf that was pulled very tightly around her neck but they
00:25:29
said that they thought she pulled it very tightly and then maybe it got slightly tightened when you know she was
00:25:37
attacked but they didn't think it was like he tied something around her neck like he didn't choke her with it or
00:25:42
anything now they got a police officer immediately of course and soon there was a crowd gathered around her our boy Dr
00:25:49
Bagster Phillips was at it again he declared that she was still warm and had likely just been killed now everyone in
00:25:58
the club and everyone who was outside from the club got searched they got interviewed their homes were searched
00:26:04
they were probably not psyched about that but like you're in the wrong place at the wrong time my dudes I don't know
00:26:08
what to tell you no one was found to have bloods on blood on their hands or their clothing and nothing was found out
00:26:15
of the ordinance which is like great but also just a [ __ ] bummer because you're like oh I know you're like he
00:26:20
wasn't just someone running back into the club can you imagine if it was just one of them he just walked back into the
00:26:25
club crazy now on October 1st 1888 she was identified as Elizabeth stride who sometimes went by Annie Fitzgerald I
00:26:34
know that is a totally different name that is just another one that you went by an alias is an alias baby she was
00:26:40
known around the area to be constantly arrested for being drunk and disorderly as of late she's climbing yeah you know
00:26:46
Elizabeth had many nicknames aside from Annie Fitzgerald she was known as long Liz long Liz likely now this is
00:26:54
interesting because I didn't realize that this was a thing but I guess like people with the last name stride that
00:27:00
was like a running joke at the time that they call them like long whatever because you're stressed right yeah yeah
00:27:05
which I'm like wow how funny hilarious uh but other people because it was like a whole thing where people were
00:27:13
like is it that or is it because she had like a long face was she and she wasn't
00:27:17
that tall so it doesn't make sense maybe that was why though yeah it could have been like a funny like long lose over
00:27:22
here right uh but she was also known as mother gum because she always had breath
00:27:27
mints no because when she laughed which was often because she was known to be very jovial and very sweet she showcased
00:27:35
um kind of a gummy Mouse because she was missing several teeth including such dicks I know people were real dicks uh
00:27:41
she was missing her two front teeths so you know people are dicks people have always been dicks it's just trolls be
00:27:49
trolling but it seems to me like a lot of these women even when people were like dicks they just kind of like took
00:27:54
it and stride and we're just like yeah [ __ ] off and would just like go about their business the UK yeah like they
00:28:00
they water off a duck's back yeah like they just they know how to joke yeah and they know how to let jokes roll because
00:28:07
they're cheeky they are they're cheeky and we [ __ ] love that's so sensitive like we love them some people can take
00:28:13
in they know how to do it yeah they really do yes um my stepmom is like British and her
00:28:20
mom was like actually like lived in Britain yeah her name was Cleo and she was the coolest [ __ ] lady and she
00:28:26
would just like read you but like in the funniest way yeah like and you know that
00:28:30
it's like it was silly yeah you can you can take it because it's funny all in good fun and it's all in good fun
00:28:35
everybody just roasts each other it's wonderful so like we we see you we love you uh so who was Elizabeth who was
00:28:42
Mother gum who is is Annie Fitzgerald who were they oh me so we're talking about Elizabeth stride here she was
00:28:49
originally named Elizabeth Gustav's daughter she was born November 27 1843 in store I might say lots of these
00:28:58
things wrong because it is in Sweden uh stora tumla head in Sweden I think that she might be a Capricorn get it girl let
00:29:09
me double check she was one of four kids with an older sister Anna Christina and
00:29:14
two brothers Carl Bernhard and svant um her father was Gustav Erickson which is why her last name was goofstuff
00:29:23
daughter makes sense um were you ragittarius there you go you were close yeah her mother was beta Carl's daughter
00:29:30
and they lived on a farm all everyone was expected to work on this Farm kids included from a very early age they grew
00:29:38
potatoes other vegetables you know it was a pretty it was like a nice little farm but yeah not very lucrative not
00:29:45
very easy work so it was tough growing up they literally kept the kids home from
00:29:50
school to work on the farm like they were expected to just work on the farm oh man and in that time it just that was
00:29:56
the way it was just that important to make sure that they were making money from the
00:30:00
farm because that was all they had yeah so especially especially the girls they were definitely not considered at
00:30:07
that time worth going to school if they could work at home it was just the way it was now when she was 17 she took off
00:30:16
to start her own life in the city of Gothenburg she was known as a very kind and very respectable girl who didn't get
00:30:23
into any trouble she was also known to always have her Bible with her because that is one thing growing up they went
00:30:29
to church they could I think the what I read in the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's victims was that like the only
00:30:36
thing she really didn't know how to read was her Bible like that was it now um people really liked her and they
00:30:42
really got along with her she settled in pretty well and by February of that year
00:30:47
she had gotten work as a domestic servant for Lars Frederick olafson and his wife it was a super nice environment
00:30:53
she took care of their kids she did work around the house she worked for them for
00:30:58
three years everything was great no complaints at all then out of nowhere with no notice and no hint of
00:31:05
displeasure she just walked out something had to have happened and that's why I'm like what happened there
00:31:11
yeah what's the T something happened there of course now she had to go find somewhere to stay because she no longer
00:31:18
had a nice nice roof over her head and she walked out of a nice home so it's like what happened there we're missing a
00:31:24
piece of that puzzle and I don't I don't know if we'll ever get it and it's interesting too that because it's like
00:31:29
you know your mind goes to like certain places but she had been there for three years and then all of a sudden something
00:31:33
like did something hit come to a head or right what happened here I'm I would I would like to know but I don't know if
00:31:40
we'll ever find out now uh she ended up getting a room in on like a street that was in not a great area of course
00:31:47
because that's really all she could afford at the time they were yeah yeah August 1864 her mother at only 54 years
00:31:54
old died of a respiratory illness could have been TB could have been anything we
00:31:59
don't know but she was young and she so she's devastated of course she took to the area she was Finding
00:32:06
herself living in and she took to the streets as a sex worker because she had no other options and often that is what
00:32:12
we find in these situations they had no other option and I wonder if she like had lost some Faith you know for sure a
00:32:20
lot of them were hopeless at the time that they were killed and I had been hopeless for a long time unfortunately
00:32:27
this was like a really sad time that was not a lot of Hope and there was not a lot of like positive stuff to look at
00:32:32
now this is interesting again from the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's victims I found out that she was
00:32:38
registered in the Gothenburg police files as a quote prostitute interestingly in Sweden this
00:32:45
registration wasn't like they registered her to like arrest her this she registered as one that meant she was
00:32:53
legally allowed to be a sex worker and would not be arrested for it in the 1800s in Sweden yeah the Swedish
00:33:01
government figured it was better to just control and regulate what was going on imagine that now it wasn't all it wasn't
00:33:07
great I will say that it sounds great like it sounds like oh wow Progressive but like it I don't know uh they
00:33:14
basically they were just trying to stop because at the time the spread of disease was very random and especially
00:33:20
like in the spread of illnesses like sexually transmitted illnesses so they figured instead of criminalize it
00:33:26
they were just going to try to keep it under control so they registered sex workers and
00:33:32
allowed them to work but just wanted to be made aware of any health concerns which sounds fine each worker was
00:33:38
described in the register and other information was put in their file aside from like diseases or illnesses other
00:33:44
health information Elizabeth was 21 at the time she was labeled as female prostitute number 97. which like wow and
00:33:53
described as being slight build blue eyes brown hair a straight nose and other random information okay this
00:34:01
sounds again like I said very Progressive way to look at sex work but it wasn't especially for like 18
00:34:06
whatever 1860s um but it wasn't just as simple as that she was also not allowed to be outside
00:34:13
in public until after 11 pm oh so you with with that like little dollop of progressiveness you're like wait what
00:34:24
what was that what like yeah like at all yeah like she couldn't be like she could
00:34:30
not work out in public until after 11 p.m all right now she had to also go twice a week to the doctor to be
00:34:37
examined and had to like make sure that nothing was happening which like that's the good part of it yeah exactly they're
00:34:42
seeing her and others there's beneficial things here but it's like a little too controlling now at one point when she
00:34:48
was young she gave birth to a stillborn child from an unknown father this was devastating for her obviously and she
00:34:56
had just lost her mother I mean I think she was only 21 years old at the time when that happened but she went back to
00:35:01
the street life and was in and out of the hospital with sexually transmitted illnesses several times over the next
00:35:07
few months and maybe a couple of years now in November 1865 she ended up being taken off the register by the police and
00:35:15
this would really only happen if they like moved died so if something big happened now this one was for a positive
00:35:23
thing it was she got another job as a domestic servant for Carl Wenzel uh Wisner and his young wife Maria
00:35:31
so she only stayed there for a few months though she ended up leaving when Maria informed her that she was pregnant
00:35:37
I don't know if it was because she didn't want to take care of a baby she just wanted to be a domestic servant
00:35:42
just lost she just lost a baby maybe she just wasn't ready um but at this point she did find out that
00:35:49
she got a little money from her Dead Mother's estate okay so this was her chance she was like I'm gonna get far
00:35:56
away from this shittiness in Sweden and I'm going to London oh no because everyone The Grass Is
00:36:04
Always Greener oh yeah no she worked briefly in the West End in London which we discussed at one point was like kind
00:36:11
of the upper class Elite she liked it like she was Finding work as a domestic servant she liked it but I think um I
00:36:18
don't know if I mentioned it in the Mary uh the Polly Nichols one but Paulie Nichols was struggling with the fact
00:36:25
that when she was a domestic servant they paid you three months out so for the first three months you didn't get
00:36:30
paid and then you got paid the back three months okay so if you could stick it out for those three months cool
00:36:36
you're getting a big check but most of these people are taking this job with no money to their name they can't afford
00:36:42
that right so it's like kind of this terrible cycle of like people can't deal with the three months of no pay right
00:36:48
like what are you supposed to do and that was just how it was there like that's just that was like standard that
00:36:54
like you didn't get paid for the first I don't know if it was like your probationary period maybe oh probably
00:37:00
and like that like I'm 90-day probationary that makes perfect sense I think that's kind of how it went but
00:37:06
like you don't get paid and that's tougher back then especially when like nothing like these people are coming in
00:37:11
there with not anything to rub together but they could live in the house and they could live in the house and I think
00:37:17
they could eat but it was like still and a lot of them were very reliant on alcohol at the time because they're
00:37:25
struggling yeah I think that has a lot to do with it yeah no and I think a lot of them just want to be able to like
00:37:32
have you know people want their own money you know like you don't want to have to rely on someone for three months
00:37:37
so a lot of people dealt with it but some people couldn't and she was struggling with this like this three
00:37:44
month period um because that's not how it was done in Sweden and she didn't know that this is
00:37:49
how it was going to be oh so Elizabeth split from this like domestic servants job in the West End found her way to a
00:37:57
known Swedish Parish in the area because she figured I could meet some people that I can go to their Church yeah it'll
00:38:03
feel like home but without all the stresses right right so it worked for her for a while and she was staying in
00:38:08
lodging houses and trying to make her way she had gotten herself a small job making and cleaning bed linens for the
00:38:15
lodging house which a lot of these women did as well they would sometimes be able
00:38:19
to like clean the floors clean the kitchen cook at the lodging houses change the beds you know do the laundry
00:38:24
and them doing that was like okay you get your free night stay like you worked it was like a workhouse without being a
00:38:30
workhouse so she got herself that small job it seemed to be working out a little
00:38:35
bit this is when she became known as long Liz right that's when people started calling her that
00:38:40
um it's again I guess it was a common nickname for people with that surname but like what it's so weird like all
00:38:48
right now around this time is when she like it was right before she was being called long Liz that she met John Thomas
00:38:56
stride he was a carpenter from the Isle of shepi Kent he was said to be a short unattractive man who was abrasive and
00:39:04
loud so it's like okay the short abrasive and Loud all right I guess so I love the
00:39:13
word abrasive abrasive is a great word to describe a lot of people because you feel it yeah abrasive is like a feeling
00:39:19
you know what I mean it really is it's a it's abrasive like I feel like I know who he is yeah like I know exactly who
00:39:27
this short unattractive abrasive myth is yeah but you know Liz was taken I suppose she was taken with this short
00:39:35
unattractive man who was abrasive and Loud okay now they married March 7th 1869 they moved into the East End into a
00:39:44
lodging house and together so hot not so hot but you know and they opened up a coffee shop together because he was
00:39:52
already I think yeah right see we're getting there and he was already kind of like in that business he he wanted to
00:39:59
open up his own coffee place and this was an East India Dock Road in Poplar I would love to open up a coffee place
00:40:06
yeah this sounds like it would be awesome it wasn't um it wasn't working out and they
00:40:11
actually moved a couple of times the coffee shop location because like one would fail and they just moved to
00:40:16
another one they just weren't getting enough customers yeah it just wasn't happening and I don't think they were
00:40:20
like super on it when it came to the business stuff but the the third one that they opened was at 178 Poplar High
00:40:29
Street next to the docks they were scraping by at this point John was a carpenter so during the day he was
00:40:35
working and Elizabeth was uh managing the shop but she was taking more time at pubs and just drinking than managing the
00:40:43
shop because she was like I don't feel like sitting here again vibing she's got places to go she's on the move a lot of
00:40:50
these women by the way guys she's a sag so Sagittarius you know we like to be all around and all over the place
00:40:58
because I'm massaged Rising oh I was like you're a Gemini I am but they say that the older you get the more you
00:41:04
start to align with your Rising oh look at that and I I do feel that way actually because well there you go yeah
00:41:09
a lot of these women that became victims of Jack the Ripper it seemed like they were just not they
00:41:18
could have gone a lot of places if life had given them any card to work with I think that's a perfect way of putting it
00:41:25
because I feel like they all were not content to sit and just rot they wanted more and they wanted to go go but they
00:41:33
just life was just kicking them kicking them kicking them every single time a way to
00:41:38
get there yeah it just kind of was like banging their heads against a brick wall
00:41:41
and I feel the more you read about them the more you're like damn I'm sorry yeah
00:41:45
like [ __ ] like it's just like a [ __ ] was not great um but again she was this is alcohol
00:41:52
tends to play a very heavy role in all these people's lives I think just because escapism and just to get and to
00:41:59
get away from the terrible terribleness that was surrounding them um but again she didn't really want to
00:42:05
sit and manage the shop she was known around all the pubs and around the locals to be fun sweet she was really
00:42:12
funny uh just like she was known back in Sweden she was the same girl people at the blackanese pub um black and his head
00:42:19
Pub excuse me were the ones to name her mother gum and that was because she laughed a lot yeah and when she would
00:42:25
laugh they were like mother gum like man but I think they didn't get it I think it was just like she probably thought it
00:42:32
was like whatever like get [ __ ] yeah in 1874 the coffee coffee shop was actually almost just closed down but
00:42:41
instead it changed hands so they were able to give it over to someone else they were kind of running it into the
00:42:46
ground so another businessman just took over I know because that actually when you said it was near the docks I was
00:42:50
like oh great looking you would think yeah but I think they were just kind of running it needed somebody there yeah be
00:42:54
a good location they just like washed their hands of it yeah now March 21st 1877 there was a police report where she
00:43:01
was seen in the Thames magistrates Court in Stepney and then ordered to enter popular workhouse
00:43:09
that usually means you got in trouble and that was your punishment often to avoid jail people would take on hard
00:43:16
labor at workhouses to pay their debts to society so jail without going to jail yeah but we don't
00:43:23
know what she did yeah we don't know exactly what she did there I'm assuming as most of the time there
00:43:29
was probably some kind of like disorderly intoxication and that kind of thing because they were always getting
00:43:34
in trouble for that because like people just like need to chill out yeah just like calm down whatever just let her
00:43:39
live just like so again she's vibing she's just so in some it was September 3rd 1878 that she got herself into a
00:43:47
scam that was like kind of reprehensible to be quite honest for not a great look for
00:43:54
her yeah not a great moment in her life that kind of carries out okay now a steamer Ship by the name of Princess
00:44:01
Alice on this day collided with another ship a ship named by well Castle on the Thames river and it sank oh somewhere
00:44:10
between 600 and 700 people died in this tragedy it was a huge tragedy there was a collection put together where people
00:44:17
could donate to the families who had lost loved ones in the ship she pretended to be a survivor of the
00:44:25
accident and that her husband and two of her what she said were nine children were killed in the accident
00:44:33
and she claimed she had seven other kids to take care of now oh she even claimed
00:44:40
that those two front teeth that she didn't have were kicked out by another passenger who was desperately trying to
00:44:46
save themselves in the accident okay and she said she managed to survive by climbing the ship's Mass to safety
00:44:54
what about the seven kids though how'd they get out that's the thing you never see those seven kids she did not have
00:45:00
seven kids like where are your kids at um it didn't work because people were like where are those seven kids and she
00:45:06
was like about that and they were like yeah you don't have that like that's and they were like you are not listed on the
00:45:11
Manifest anywhere neither is anyone with that many kids and no one lost a husband
00:45:16
and two children and or people did but like no one by the name of you right right so it didn't make sense okie dokie
00:45:24
she did unfortunately use this story over and over and over and she like you know it's she's I think she's
00:45:31
desperate I was gonna say it's reprehensible but it's also completely born out of desperation and you know
00:45:38
like if we were in that position we don't know what we would yeah I mean like Eat to Live to survive bad to Pro
00:45:45
to play off a tragedy like that absolutely it's bad and I'm not gonna sit here and give her any credit on that
00:45:51
no at all it's like and again nobody's perfect no victim is perfect no they don't have to be perfect no matter what
00:45:59
they didn't deserve what they got it doesn't just because you're not perfect and you did some [ __ ] in your life
00:46:04
doesn't mean in any way you deserve to end where you ended nobody's perfect you live and you learn it po but he's
00:46:10
nerfect yep you know we're in different places entirely there you go I love you so much
00:46:16
foreign but it's true though it's true it's one I will say at least she wasn't like
00:46:24
working like as a domestic servant and like making that money and then being like hey by the way like I died in a
00:46:30
ship crash and I didn't die but everybody else did money like she didn't have anything no and it's again it's a
00:46:36
shitty thing it was a bad use of her time it was a bad right decision she made a lot of these women made some bad
00:46:44
decisions because when the system is working against you that's when you make bad decisions exactly and you don't even
00:46:50
need to justify all of them everyone makes bad decisions and sometimes they're unjustified oh girl we could do
00:46:56
a whole last podcast about the bad decisions in my life that I've made like we've all been there everybody's been
00:47:01
there so it's like we don't need to sit here and be like but you know it's like no she made a shitty choice and she had
00:47:06
to live with it but again by no means does it give anybody any justification to harm her that's not like a you know
00:47:15
so it's like we don't have to pretend they were perfect people that just like didn't do anything bad in their lives
00:47:20
everybody's shitty right in some way and it's like yeah like people will come like right into us and they're like
00:47:25
listen when you cover me on the podcast like if you ever do something don't say that I lit up a room I said I didn't
00:47:30
nobody still say it you probably did but you know what they did a lot of great things they had a lot of a lot of people
00:47:35
who loved them they they wanted to do better and they just couldn't they're in bad circumstances but this is a bad this
00:47:42
is a bad decision that she made and she did use this over and over again and she
00:47:47
used it sometimes she'd say she'd just tell people if they asked like where's your husband oh he died in a in the uh
00:47:53
accident and you know like she'd say like oh I lost these teeth like in that accident or you know my kids died in
00:48:00
that accident like just it was usually to try to like get ahead a little bit Yeah but it never really worked she just
00:48:06
really clung to that story okay but she learned early in life how to sew and tailor and she would sometimes use
00:48:13
those skills to earn money too but it was just never consistent that's the problem back then it just was never
00:48:18
consistent money now she was always known by friends to carry sewing equipment and this was just in case the
00:48:26
opportunity arose that she could use her skills okay she always had buttons Thimbles a needle and some thread on her
00:48:32
she was like really cute she was just ready to jump into action a seamstress so you could you can see that she
00:48:38
Elizabeth was ready to make legitimate money she just needed the opportunity to do it by 1881 she and John stride had
00:48:48
moved into a lodging home at 69 Usher Road in Beau this was very cramped they didn't have it to themselves they had to
00:48:56
share with several of the other families she began drinking very heavily around this time
00:49:01
John on the other hand was very religious in the idea of drinking horrified him oh she left around
00:49:09
Christmas leaving their house and John because they just couldn't it wasn't working he was like getting angry that
00:49:17
she was drinking it became a constant source of fighting well he's abrasive too so yeah and she's probably getting
00:49:23
to break up as well exactly it's not good you're in a cramped place now she became sick around this time and was
00:49:30
admitted to White Chapel workhouse infirmary Aunt Baker's Row for bronchitis and exhaustion now after a
00:49:36
week she was made to go to White Chapel workhouse she struggled that they were like hey
00:49:42
recover from your bronchitis and your exhaustion for one week and then get to work yeah like not even just like start
00:49:48
sewing again like go like tie the [ __ ] ship things together and have your hands bleed all over like you
00:49:54
feeling good okay get in there go go Crush now she was so she went to White Chapel
00:50:02
workhouse she struggled in and out of these kind of situations not really finding work to rely on so like the
00:50:09
other victims she was in these workhouses and lodging homes and Casual Awards constantly just over and over
00:50:14
again um and John would give her money every now and then but then they were still
00:50:21
estranged and he was in bad Health too so now everything's starting to kind of Crash she's not even getting that
00:50:26
because he ends up dying like very shortly after this and meanwhile while they're not
00:50:33
together like a strange she's still claiming that he died in that ship sinking so she moved into a lodging
00:50:40
house at 32 flower and Dean Street which we mentioned in part one is one of the worst areas flower and Dean Street is
00:50:47
that one of those like Infamous like ah I love that flower flowering Street yeah
00:50:52
like can you name it something like that can keep me away from it exactly in 1884
00:50:57
John did end up dying of heart disease by this time she had turned back to the streets and back to sex work to make
00:51:04
money finding herself absolutely desperate and without options she got herself caught a few times then she
00:51:10
would have to work off the demerits and workhouses now this is when I came across
00:51:16
some in one of the sources and I cannot remember which one it was they mentioned
00:51:21
something about like you know had to walk hours a day on a giant treadmill and I was like I'm sorry what I looked
00:51:27
it up that was like a thing they did back then to prisoners they would have them work like a treadmill was the name
00:51:34
for this big [ __ ] contraption that worked on like a mill wheel and it was literally a treadmill that or like
00:51:41
almost like a step treadmill like almost like a master yeah that you just they would make prisoners walk for hours
00:51:48
to make this Mill Run so that they could like make flour and [ __ ] for just to like be like useful the second semester
00:51:56
will get you snatched real quick and it was literally like eight hours a day though no yeah no isn't that why I do
00:52:03
the StairMaster for like 15 minutes and I'm like I literally will never be the same again I look at a StairMaster and I
00:52:11
heave I bet I can't imagine yeah I can't imagine that's horrific it just blew when I saw that I was like whoa I I like
00:52:19
you know what I'll even put a thing in the show no don't blink to it because you guys just need to do your research
00:52:23
it's a wild rabbit hole to go down I was like what is the world you would be like
00:52:29
Skin and Bones yeah I mean you have a dump truck but like exactly now around this time again
00:52:37
people really like Elizabeth I like Elizabeth regardless of some bad choices Elizabeth was a very likable person I
00:52:45
mean the likable people like that I know sometimes do make boundaries yeah everybody does we're humans and you know
00:52:51
what she was someone who would try to help you if she could and she was very jovial very like happy she was very
00:52:57
goofy she was always laughing even when she was sad she just was always someone that like people were like you know what
00:53:03
she was just fun to be around even when she was a like bummed out you just didn't feel it okay so it's like damn
00:53:09
Elizabeth right this is when she started seeing a dock worker by the name of Michael kidney
00:53:15
they stayed at lodging houses together on Dorset Street another really bad street I remember that uh it was it was
00:53:21
along what was called The Wicked quarter mile oh and not Wicked like that's wicked cool kid yeah we're not in Boston
00:53:27
it was wicked uh like Something Wicked This Way Comes now at the lodging house they made friends and had a kind of
00:53:35
community there so like you know now it's becoming like a thing where like we stay at the same lodging houses and like
00:53:41
me and Michael were doing this thing you know sweet she worked in the kitchen sometimes she was a good cook so people
00:53:47
liked her cooking she was like just getting her feel here and at this point I'm like come on I know
00:53:53
you can do it Elizabeth frustrating but she just didn't get the chance would they let I don't you might not know this
00:53:59
off the top of your head but like could a woman work in a restaurant at that point in time like as a chef I think it
00:54:04
was basically like bar made you know it was like I don't think you were gonna be
00:54:08
hired as a chef but I don't know that you wish that she could get hired like to cook for a family yeah that's the
00:54:14
thing like she was decent at it so it's like if with more practice and more just
00:54:19
doing it she I think she could have like really found her way but they were eventually able to get some money
00:54:24
together to move into a room together on Devonshire Street um but they were really happy together
00:54:31
they were not yeah Michael kidney is a a [ __ ] [ __ ] him so she was drinking heavily again and started
00:54:40
um taking to the street again to get some extra money kind of just falling back into that life because it was a
00:54:46
life she had known she felt comfortable with it and she it's a guaranteed way it's a guarantee they all said it at one
00:54:52
point that it was just quick they would disassociate and they got their money and they would go which is
00:54:59
horrifying to think about for real now he assaulted her one night because he found out that she was got she had gone
00:55:07
back to sex work and he was pissed so one night when she got home he is so like physically assaulted her
00:55:14
um and he was pissed that she was drinking pissed that she was on the streets and meanwhile
00:55:21
he was an abusive drunk was an abusive drunk so he's mad that she's drinking and he's like you're a
00:55:28
piece of [ __ ] drunk and it's like yes so you're a piece of [ __ ] drone right and
00:55:32
then she he's pissed and I'm like well she doesn't have any opportunities [ __ ] like what do you want
00:55:36
you're sitting around drinking the money away You're a shitty [ __ ] too like come on so she had enough after she like
00:55:42
assaulted her and she left so on March 21st 1886 she went to live at Poplar Union Workhouse and was sent to the
00:55:51
infirmary because she was in extremely bad condition she was not doing well it was probably like all the drinking
00:55:57
like exactly and it was just like the life she was having to leave yeah now she did go back to kidneys several times
00:56:04
it was one of those very toxic moments each time it got worse and worse he was more and more abusive but she needed a
00:56:10
roof over her head a lot so she was willing to put up with it that's so sad which is really sad she was brought
00:56:16
before the Thames magistrates Court eight times between 87 and 88 one year uh it was all for drunken disorderly
00:56:25
stuff so she was really going through it the year before she was killed she was going through it and like we said that
00:56:31
seems to be the case it's like yeah you get and it's just so sad because every single one so far has had this little
00:56:37
piece of Hope where like oh you could turn it around yeah but life just doesn't want them no exactly and it's
00:56:43
like right here is where like she was at her worst she was back to sex work which
00:56:49
she was not happy doing she wasn't cooking she wasn't uh like Michael kidney and her were back and forth but
00:56:55
every time it was is abuse abuse abuse she's just in a terrible Place September 20th of 1988 she was walking in White
00:57:03
Chapel and she met a woman named Catherine Lane and her friend Elizabeth Tanner when she started talking to
00:57:10
Catherine she was like oh this is Elizabeth and Elizabeth Tanner was like oh I'm the manager of the lodging house
00:57:16
on flower and Dean Street and she was like if you want to stay there like I'll help you out because she heard her story
00:57:24
and she was like wow like you have a terribly abusive partner like I'm gonna try to help you out okay so she told her
00:57:31
you can stay there she was like you need to do some laundry you need to clean I'll pay you a small
00:57:37
amount and you can stay for a roof over your head which was huge and she was like I can also help out in the kitchen
00:57:43
okay she was like cool perfect this is great okay so they got along really well things were going well she got she's a
00:57:51
few days into this new job this new lodging situation Elizabeth Tanner was really liking stride she said she got
00:57:57
along with her she would have been happy to have her there for longer and on September 29th 1888 they went drinking
00:58:04
together at the Queen's head Pub around 6 30 p.m which it's like they must have really liked each other like she's the
00:58:10
deputy of this lodging house so usually they're like manager of lodging out she's not like going drinking with the
00:58:15
tenants exactly a lot of times they were dicks and it's like sometimes they were
00:58:18
cool and it seems like if the two of them are getting along so well like must have been a nice relationship well it's
00:58:24
like at that point too it's like maybe she could have found herself like co-managing this place exactly now
00:58:29
people from the lodging house remember her coming back around 7pm so after having that drink with Elizabeth Tanner
00:58:35
and then getting ready to leave again and by 7 30 a few of them witnessed her in the kitchen they said she appeared to
00:58:42
be in good spirits was happy she was openingly readying herself to walk the streets that evening so she was saying
00:58:48
I'm gonna make a few I'm gonna make some money yeah now Witnesses saw her with several different men slash possibly
00:58:55
clients throughout the evening before 11 pm a couple of men saw her speaking to a
00:59:01
man they described as wearing a jacket that had white flowers pinned to it they both called him clerkley looking like he
00:59:09
looked like you know what color means I think it's like you look like a clerk I guess he had a dark mustache I don't
00:59:15
know if it's just like okay because I saw this and I was like that's a strange description but somebody else describes
00:59:21
a man that way too the two men saw the this man and her leaving the bricklayers arms in um which is a uh Pub the
00:59:30
bricklayer's arms in settle Street together and they were like kissing each other and hugging okay so like seemed
00:59:35
very close yeah more witnesses saw Elizabeth with this man and they were both going towards Commercial Street
00:59:42
or Commercial Road excuse me at 11 45 PM William Marshall a witness reported he saw Elizabeth quote kissing and carrying
00:59:51
on with a man he described as a clerk looking man this man was described as having a
00:59:57
sailor's hat on and they were walking towards duckfield's court near the international workman's educational Club
01:00:03
already I don't know if you remember that I do he heard this man saying to her you would say anything but your
01:00:10
prayers oh and she laughed so I think he was being like cheeky like you would say
01:00:15
anything about your prayers and she was like haha cheeky but duckfield's yard like we said is next to that club which
01:00:22
was hopping late at night but the yard itself was gated off in Pitch Black it was a just it was described as a place
01:00:30
you would have to grope your way through to get to the other side of where the gate was and that's the thing like I
01:00:35
don't even think we can actually grasp how [ __ ] dark it is I cannot I cannot grasp the concept of how dark this is
01:00:41
because I'm like picturing it and every now and again I'm like a street light and I'm like none no and I panic when
01:00:47
like the lights go off and there's no source of light and you have to like find a light switch nope that is a real
01:00:53
Panic moment for me I don't like like heavy heavy Darkness I don't like the sound of Darkness yeah it's so thinking
01:01:00
of that outside when it's dangerous and you know there's like tons of people who
01:01:05
are just gonna stab you around and like rob you yeah and like possibly rape you like they're just everywhere what like I
01:01:12
don't want that dude I used to have to walk through the common like from the uh Salon that I used to work at to where I
01:01:18
would park and I would be so [ __ ] terrified and that place is lit exactly like fully lit fully lit but like still
01:01:25
scary at night exactly now so they were walking towards there um a few minutes later they were seen they believe that
01:01:33
this is the same guy seen at a green grocery shop who was uh the grocer was Matthew Packer it was on Burner Street
01:01:40
he told I guess what happened in there was the guy walked up to the grocer Matthew Packer and was like
01:01:47
um like get her whatever she wants okay so she was like and she was like I want some grapes and he was like what kind of
01:01:54
grapes would you like we have this grape or this grape she asked for a certain kind of grave she said I want cotton
01:01:58
candy he brought it there you go and he bought her the grapes Packer said he believed this man was about 35 years old
01:02:05
everything seemed fine according to him now police Constable William Smith saw Elizabeth around 12 30 a.m near
01:02:12
duckfield's yard with a man he said was about 28 years old which is like a very specific number
01:02:18
wearing a dark coat and a deer stalker's cap so a different man different man but
01:02:24
if you remember that deer stalkers I do Annie Chapman was talking to a man with a deer stalker's cap you might be like
01:02:30
whoa but dear stalker's hats were very common then so it's not but we know still weird but we know that she
01:02:36
switched uh there's a different man because the previous man had a sailor's cat exactly I'm paying attention there
01:02:42
you go see you're on it I'm on it now he was also carrying a package that was wrapped in newspaper apparently
01:02:49
that other man was carrying a package there was there was a few like there's different sources that say because I
01:02:55
think also Witnesses confuse themselves in these situations but there is there is a package in newspaper that comes up
01:03:03
every now and then in these which makes you wonder is that where his he's keeping his tools exactly Allah Albert
01:03:10
Fish exactly what does he does he walk around with them and that's how he walks around with them because no one would
01:03:16
question somebody with a package craft a newspaper especially back then right why
01:03:21
would anyone care I had never picked up like I've listened to so much coverage about this case but I'd never come up
01:03:26
with that before yeah you don't know yeah we don't know but it would make a lot yeah it's not a weird thing to think
01:03:32
is you walking around with like a six to eight inch knife in his pocket yeah it's
01:03:37
like either it's in his pocket in a sheath of some Court sort but like it would be it would make more sense if he
01:03:44
was just walking around with it in a newspaper package right because No One's Gonna blink at that right and he can
01:03:49
walk away still holding the package and No One's Gonna think and if anything it looks less suspicious because you're
01:03:56
just everybody's walking around holding [ __ ] right now a few minutes later she
01:04:00
was spotted on Fair close street with a man who people said was about five foot seven and was wearing a long black coat
01:04:06
that went to his ankles okay this witness heard her say No not tonight some other night okay that particular
01:04:14
one it is reported in everything but some people some ripperologists out there they believe that that was not her
01:04:23
and it's just because when you put it together with everything it seems like that may have been somebody who they
01:04:27
thought was her but not sure worth noting exactly uh then that brings us to 12 45 a.m when Israel Schwartz was on
01:04:39
his way home he saw a man about five foot five he said he looked to be about 30 years old he looked to be a little
01:04:46
drunk a little tipsy entering and he was in the entrance of duckfield's yard he had kind of like a round face he said
01:04:55
he had brown hair a small brown mustache he was wearing all dark clothing like black shirt black pants black hat black
01:05:02
everything he was a goth he was uh in the police report from October 19th 1888 it states this and I quote so Israel
01:05:13
Schwartz stated at this hour on turning onto into Berner street from Commercial Road and having got as far as the
01:05:20
Gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop to speak to a woman who was standing in the Gateway the man
01:05:26
tried to pull the woman into the street but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman
01:05:32
screamed three times but not very loudly on Crossing to the opposite side of the
01:05:37
street he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe the man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the
01:05:44
man on the opposite side of the road lipsky that's what he yelled and then Schwartz walked away
01:05:51
but finding that he was followed by the second man the one with the pipe he was lighting he ran so far as the railway
01:05:57
Arch but the man did not follow so far Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other
01:06:03
upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen and he thus
01:06:10
describes the first man who threw the woman down aged about 30 height five foot five complexion fare hair dark
01:06:17
small brown mustache full face broad-shouldered dressed in a dark jacket and trousers black cap with a
01:06:24
peek and he had nothing in his hands all right now this was interesting to me because lipsky what does that mean you
01:06:33
you asked me that the reason I looked away from you is because I was Googling it well don't worry because I'm going to
01:06:37
tell you about it oh good so now according to casebook.org which I linked in part one I believe in the show notes
01:06:44
but I'll do it again here there was an article posted in ripperologist magazine which I did not know was a thing but
01:06:50
apparently it's like a very big periodical in the ripperology space love to hear it this um this article was
01:06:58
written by Robert McLaughlin and in it he talks about what this lip ski could mean
01:07:03
I was curious myself in this article really it made me think so I recommend reading this entire article and again
01:07:10
I'm going to post the link to it in the show notes but basically it's a discussion about what exactly lipsky
01:07:17
means and if that is even what Israel Schwartz said like maybe he was mistaken like maybe heard it wrong yeah maybe or
01:07:27
excuse me not what he said but what he heard yeah so the year prior in 1887 this is very interesting on Burner
01:07:33
Street which was very close to the scene a man named Israel lipsky oh [ __ ] murdered a woman who is in the same
01:07:41
lodging house as he was staying her name was Miriam Angel and he murdered her by
01:07:46
pouring nitric acid down her throat Jesus it's a wild story and I I went into it for like an hour I'm going to
01:07:54
cover that story in more detail by itself because it deserves an entire episode but he confessed to it and was
01:08:01
hanged on August 20 22nd 1887 seven damn this was only a year earlier so did lipsky start to mean murder well so his
01:08:09
real his real surname was actually lebowsk but he changed it when he arrived in London a lot of people did
01:08:15
that no one really knows why he was Jewish and since anti-Semitism was rampant around this time yeah you would
01:08:21
mentioned people think like maybe he thought it sounded less Jewish lipsky but it was a massive case that was
01:08:28
everywhere in all the papers and people had it on their minds for sure now one possibility for this was that this man
01:08:35
shouted lipsky at his friend across the street and meant it as like a verb almost according to the complete Jack
01:08:43
the Ripper by Donald rumbola which again I really love uh men would often say these things during to their like during
01:08:50
arguments with their wives like domestic disputes they'd say things like I'll White Chapel you after these murders
01:08:56
yeah oh my God it was very common thing in London I guess at the time people would take events and use them as like
01:09:03
verbs kind of thing I guess we kind of still do that to this day yeah and I guess then it was just like a little
01:09:09
more like prominent gratuitous I suppose but uh so maybe this man was trying to harm Elizabeth and yelled lipsky like
01:09:17
I'm gonna lipstick you or possibly he was hurling an insult to Israel Schwartz again anti-Semitism was
01:09:28
rampant and maybe he saw Israel looking their way and not minding his own business and he yelled lipsky the name
01:09:36
of a really Infamous Jewish murderer at Schwartz as an insult because that it I mean like especially at this time during
01:09:45
the Jack the Ripper murders Jewish people were being they were in danger at this point like people so him yelling
01:09:53
that would have been like a threat and it could have definitely been an insult and Israel Schwartz himself was like he
01:09:59
could have looked at me and been like I think you're Jewish and I'm just gonna yell this nasty insult to you like to
01:10:06
get him to go away right so that could be something that in which all of these are horrifying so far to use lipsky as a
01:10:15
verb first of all and then to just like hurl and anti you know Semitic like basic like insult at somebody right or
01:10:23
this was something I had wondered this next one and I was glad to see it questioned in that article as well
01:10:28
because my initial thought was that maybe he wasn't saying lipsky at all maybe he was saying Lizzy or something
01:10:35
like that oh her name is Elizabeth she was called Liz sometimes it seems to me when I read this incident I read the
01:10:44
report it felt personal to me this man was dragging her out on the street right and that doesn't feel jacked to me it
01:10:52
very it feels very domestic violence to me Michael kidney perhaps the guy that she was with that was abusive was he
01:10:59
trying to get her to go back home with him somewhere and she was refusing because again he's dragging her into the
01:11:04
middle of the street he's not dragging her into an alley yeah and because when she was refusing this man pushed her to
01:11:10
the ground oh and I don't know it just feels weirdly personal that feels domestic violency I absolutely agree
01:11:17
yeah she also didn't call out for help like I feel like she would have had a stranger been assaulting her she
01:11:24
screamed but it even says not very loudly and no specific and that like help me scream right and that pain that
01:11:31
scream that she did let out could have just been like in pain yeah it could have just been like a completely
01:11:35
involuntary right yell that she just fell down to the ground like you said in pain and maybe he yelled Lizzy or
01:11:43
something like that yeah or even yelled lipsky at her like who knows like But Lizzy to me seems like it's like an
01:11:49
interesting thought at the very least I agree and Robert McLaughlin in that article also said that so I was glad to
01:11:54
see somebody else thought that but all to say the lipsky incident happened at 12 45 a.m and by 1am she was dead Okay
01:12:04
so this was 15 minutes later right he's dead now the Matthew Packer statement which was the one that um he was the
01:12:12
grocer at the green grocer they came in he was like oh give her all the grapes she would like that statement fell apart
01:12:19
as well oh he had originally said he saw nothing and no one's strange but now he
01:12:24
was claiming the grape story now that a reward was being offered and um the police were not offering a reward
01:12:31
they're refusing to which I understand they were like hesitant to do that because they were worried people would
01:12:37
do these things private citizens were offering rewards and like media was um also her post-mortem showed that she
01:12:45
did not have any grape in her system oh and his statement is like buy her any grape she wants and she was like I want
01:12:52
those grapes and was like all excited when you were explaining that I was like I've never really met anybody that was
01:12:57
like that stoked about grapes yeah I mean it was London in 1888 so I think grapes were like that would have been a
01:13:04
great thing to get for her I mean that I don't think she's eating that's great so
01:13:08
I think grapes would have been like holy [ __ ] I can have some fresh grapes like
01:13:12
sure because she probably didn't have the money to buy them herself that's true you know so that wasn't too crazy
01:13:17
for me it was just more like that guy that grape story along with the the myth of her holding on to like a
01:13:25
bunch of grapes in her hands yeah it's just a little bit over the years like the weirdest things
01:13:31
get added to things like this it's weird by itself the whole thing to it the whole thing is weird without the grapes
01:13:38
I promise you no Dr George Phillips and Dr Blackwell were tasked with her post-mortem examination the cause of
01:13:46
death was listed as violent Hemorrhage from Severance of blood vessels in the neck by a sharp instrument she was not
01:13:53
mutilated any further and they believed that this was because Jack the Ripper was interrupted
01:13:59
it says and this is a quote from the autopsy the right hand was lying on the chest and was smeared inside and out
01:14:06
with blood it was quite open the left hand was lying on the ground and was partially closed and it contained a
01:14:12
small packet of Cassius wrapped in tissue paper those are breath mints now there were no rings or marks of rings on
01:14:20
her fingers the appearance of the face was quote Placid and the mouth was slightly open there was a Czech scar
01:14:27
checkered scarf silk scarf around her neck and the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled tightly there
01:14:33
was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf the lower edge of
01:14:39
the scarf was slightly frayed as if by a sharp knife the incision on the neck commenced on the left side 2.5 inches
01:14:46
below the angle of the jaw and almost in a direct line with it it nearly severed
01:14:51
the vessels on that side also what's interesting is there's a lot of times in the Jack the Ripper cases
01:14:59
where his knife must be extraordinarily sharp because it frays fabric that it's next to oh wow that cut happens in a lot
01:15:08
of these so that to me says it's like a very sharp knife which a medical examiner which I'm just saying
01:15:15
now the next day the Star newspaper reported quote a man when passing through Church Lane at about half past
01:15:22
one saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands as everyone is on the lookout for the murderer the man looked
01:15:30
at the stranger with a certain amount of Suspicion whereupon he tried to conceal
01:15:34
his face he's described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat if you remember William Marshall the
01:15:43
random witness saw Elizabeth stride with a man wearing a sailor hat as well oh honey I remember oh you remember
01:15:51
that's just a little interesting thing didn't really get followed up on all right now next day Michael kidney
01:15:58
appeared at the police station himself oh did he drunk as hell and told them if he was the policeman on beat when
01:16:06
Elizabeth's body was found he would kill himself what okay Michael like wow I'd be like you didn't have to
01:16:14
come here to say that yeah they were just like thank you okay have a good day I suppose cool of you to profess yeah he
01:16:19
was having a real moment now here I don't know if I buy Elizabeth stride as a ripper victim oh is where is
01:16:28
is my ending thing here her injuries were done according to Dr Phillips in seconds that throat cut he said could
01:16:36
have taken less than five seconds boom done the throat was quick and he said it was done with a blunter
01:16:43
more beveled knife so that the side of it could have been sharp like razor sharp but it was blunted at the top he
01:16:50
believed ah so not a pointed sharp six to eight inch knife that was very clear in the other killings so
01:16:59
this is strange to me that he would use a different knife right and it just I don't know nothing I know that
01:17:07
like he could have been interrupted and I that's why I'm not saying that I that she's definitely not a ripper victim
01:17:13
because maybe he was interrupted maybe somebody came maybe it was um the first guy Lewis when he was on
01:17:21
his um with his horse and cart and maybe the horse coming into the yard scared Turtle ran away yep and then we have a
01:17:29
this is the double event So within I mean so close to this one he goes crazy on another Buzz maybe he did maybe
01:17:39
because he didn't get to that is the that's the thing that a lot of people hang on to that that must be why
01:17:46
Catherine Meadows was so brutalized but then at the same time uh we're talking about White Chapel yeah and it's like I
01:17:54
don't know Elizabeth to me I'm like I don't know I I wonder if she was killed by Elizabeth strive was killed by
01:18:01
someone she knew you think I don't know I'm not saying it's definitely it but to
01:18:05
me it feels a little more like it I don't know if she I would definitively Place her in the canonical five I don't
01:18:13
know if I would keep her I know she's in there but I don't know about that one I'll have to get back to you after I
01:18:20
read the 602 books that you recommended yeah there you go get get all your reading in and then you let me know okay
01:18:25
sounds good talk to you in a few years I'm not I'm not super alone in this feeling there are people who don't
01:18:30
believe that she's a stride is one of them um but I you know I'm just saying I think it's a little strange I guess here
01:18:39
are Catherine eddos and then you can tell me so 1 30 a.m after the Elizabeth stride Elizabeth stride has been found
01:18:46
the scene has been cleared at 1 30 a.m um police Constable for the city police Edward Watkins was walking his beat and
01:18:55
he walked directly through miter Square in aldgate nothing was out of the ordinary this is his regular beat that
01:19:01
he would just you know because they would that that beat they would take is like the same path you know things were
01:19:07
you know as chaotic as they normally would be at this time couldn't see and all that kind of [ __ ] yeah all that fun
01:19:13
stuff um but 14 minutes later 14 minutes later he Loops back around to walk that same
01:19:20
beat again this time when he passed through he immediately saw a woman lying on her back on the ground he had just
01:19:27
walked through this right he used his Lantern for light and when he's shown it over her it was clear that she had been
01:19:33
brutally murdered her clothing was intentionally and aggressively cut open to expose her entire body like cut open
01:19:43
she was soaked from head to toe in blood her torso had been eviscerated cut open
01:19:48
from rectum to sternum yes I said rectum to sternum and not growing to sternum her intestines were slashed and cut a
01:19:59
two foot piece of intestines were laid on the ground cut out of her body and laid on the ground but next to her
01:20:06
between her body and her arm another larger piece of the intestines was draped over her right shoulder
01:20:13
and if you remember Annie Chapman same thing draped over the shoulder a Clear Connection there now she had a
01:20:21
deep laceration across her throat and her face was slashed several times the killer had also cut through part of her
01:20:27
right ear like cut it off he had just walked like this guy had just walked through here and now he
01:20:34
loops around not 15 minutes later and this kind of damage was already done that is insane like that's the thing
01:20:40
it's not like he walked through and he found Elizabeth's stride with her throat cut something that could have happened
01:20:45
within seconds right this is like Andy making your surgery but like not for surgery when you find out what he did
01:20:53
like this alone is outrageous when you find out the details here I have no idea how he did all this in that time it's in
01:21:01
truly was like is Jack the Ripper a person I know he seems like a phantom and I can't imagine what this guy must
01:21:08
have felt like the patrolman he must have been like an alternate reality you want you loop back around and you're
01:21:13
like what how like how did this happen like how did I miss this the first time around yeah so she was killed in a
01:21:18
corner by an alley and looking at a surveyor map of the murder site I saw that there was literally like two lamps
01:21:24
in the entire Square just two lamps one was across the street but far away and one was around the corner and probably
01:21:31
would have been like no help for lighting purposes where she was and next to her were three empty homes and across
01:21:38
the way like literally across the street was the home of Patrol um police Constable Richard Pierce who
01:21:45
was asleep in his home at the time of the murder and could have seen it from his bedroom window stop if he looked out
01:21:53
his bedroom and if you look at the surveyors map I'll see if we can post it you can see it was right there
01:21:59
which again makes you wonder like did somebody know that that's the thing I wonder if they knew that he lived there
01:22:06
and they did that to be like wake up right out your door yeah like look out your window I just did it right under
01:22:10
your your bedroom window exactly and I think that was part of it now nearby was a warehouse kearly in tongs where night
01:22:19
Watchman and former Metropolitan Police Force officer named George James Morris was sweeping uh Watkins ran in there and
01:22:28
told him there was another woman in the Square he said she was cut to pieces and
01:22:32
that her intestines were tossed quote in a heap over her shoulder and that he was
01:22:37
like I need help I could come yeah I think he like the direct quotas he read in there was like for God's sake man
01:22:43
help me and he was like what I don't know what you need going on now Morris followed him out and upon seeing the
01:22:48
body he whistled for help himself he told Watkins he had not seen or heard anything and that his Warehouse door had
01:22:55
been open while he swept for the last few minutes that's crazy um and two police officers showed up
01:23:00
after their call for assistance one of them was PC James Harvey Harvey showed up and he was shocked not
01:23:08
only just at the scene in front of him but because he he had actually walked to miter square at 1 40.
01:23:16
and had seen nothing what he had seen nothing at all this she was found at 145 right he had walked
01:23:23
there at 1 45 minutes nothing at all Harvey was there like literally there five minutes before and saw nothing and
01:23:30
he was adamant I saw nothing here what the [ __ ] dude now according to Jack the
01:23:36
Ripper Scotland Yard investigates this would mean Harvey was literally within yards while Jack was murdering this
01:23:43
woman and heard nothing and heard nothing you would think too that he like he would have heard even like us like a
01:23:50
phone yeah yeah or like I think he just he severs that windpipe so click the quick that it's just he can but for him
01:23:59
to do it in the dark he does this [ __ ] in the dark and he's meticulous that's the other thing the fact that he's doing
01:24:06
this in the dark and this is a kind of a crude question to ask but do organs make
01:24:11
a lot of noise when they're being taken out of the body like I would think that like when you take somebody's intestines
01:24:16
out and slump them over their shoulder that that would make some kind of noise it would that's the thing because also
01:24:22
like the the mesentery was cut often times off of these intestines the message is what attaches it to the
01:24:29
abdomen so it's like thick rough piece of skin almost like that it's you have to when we would do an autopsy part of
01:24:38
it is you remove the bowels and you would start at the bottom of the intestines and you would basically Flay
01:24:44
away that mesentery so you could pull the intestines out otherwise you're tearing and ripping them away from that
01:24:51
mesentery so for him to be able to plop some next to her and also fling some above her
01:24:58
shoulder right he had to take that sharp blade and he had to know to cut that mesentery I didn't know it was there and
01:25:03
if you do it find it and this is very this is going to sound crude but it's just reality you know how when you are
01:25:10
like um when you're cutting wrapping paper and your scissors you get that nice side it just Glides the way we
01:25:17
would do it is you once you get that one cut on the mesentery you can pull the intestines and glide that blade across
01:25:23
it and pull them all out until you get to the end okay and yeah so it's for him to know to do that
01:25:31
because otherwise it would take him a lot longer because he'd be ripping and pulling you'd hear that and it's hard
01:25:38
it's not easy to do like a lot of times when we would do an autopsy if you were gonna you not use a blade because there
01:25:45
were some autopsy technicians that just preferred to use their hands for a lot of things that's a red flag it just is
01:25:52
the way it is a red flag there's some things that are easier to use your hands because you don't want to get a blade
01:25:57
lost somewhere and cut yourself like because sometimes you're just like blindly having to cut you don't have to
01:26:02
go like super into detail anymore I'm an empath and I can feel all of this but sometimes they would use their hands to
01:26:09
rip something away from something else and it makes a very clear sound a squish sound at the very least I said number
01:26:15
two it takes bit I mean I worked with like big guys it takes them muscle to get right and that's them in a well-lit
01:26:25
area with a very easy leverage of leaning over a table while we have like you know yeah this guy is doing it on
01:26:32
the ground could you do this have you done this what the can you do this like rip things away with your hands can you
01:26:38
do the um like take it from the mezzanine the mezzanine not the balcony let's go see a movie yeah the uh cutting
01:26:46
the mesentery away from the the intestines and like removing the bowels was is one of the things they do like
01:26:53
when you first start working there at least where I work it's like that's your like hey you're new you get to do the
01:27:00
bowels and it's like oh thank you because it's like once you learn how to do it it becomes very second nature they
01:27:06
make you do it at first because it's I mean it's it's like one of the more foul jobs of of all the evisceration jobs
01:27:13
that's kind of like when I worked at a pizza place and they made us eat an anchovy for uh it's the exact same it's
01:27:19
exactly like that it's because you like same deal yeah it's the I know and all these I I this is gonna be really gross
01:27:26
but hi we're in Jack Ripper and I'm an autopsy technician so it's going to get weird in a lot of reports they keep it
01:27:34
that weird I'll keep it that weird yeah they they mentioned the intestines obviously that's a very important thing
01:27:40
that it was ripped out that it was over her shoulder in a lot of them they mention like and there was like fecal
01:27:46
matter like you know on the intestine like they they do it like it's like this is a strange thing and I'm like well
01:27:53
that's where it is like I'm like if you pull someone's intestines out that's gonna be there like this isn't a weird
01:27:59
thing yeah we all poop that's really not something to note it's just like that's
01:28:03
where the poop goes yeah so I just think it's so weird I'm like you don't have to
01:28:07
do that no you just said that that's rude we know what intestines have inside of them I don't need to know yeah it's
01:28:12
like he didn't do that on purpose so it was just part of the that's actually probably like wouldn't have wanted to do
01:28:17
that on purpose don't they tell you like don't cut the poop pipe don't cut the poop pipe kid but that you know that is
01:28:23
just that part the ripping out the intestines so [ __ ] quickly and doing it with such like ease
01:28:33
and with no and not even just doing that if he just did that I'd be impressed but
01:28:39
he does a [ __ ] ton of other stuff in this small period of time with no light either right and it's really wild but to
01:28:46
my point then there would have been a noise there would have been a noise exactly so I think there would have been
01:28:51
noises of some kind even just like you know it's like it's gooey in there like things make sloshing noises that's what
01:29:00
I was picturing to be on limping noises there's ripping noises in fact one of the no you just one more thing uh keep
01:29:06
it to yourself honey when you remove the pelvic block or the um or you know the thoracic block whatever you're removing
01:29:14
um when you are able to get it away from the sides of the body it makes a suction
01:29:22
noise oh and that was always called like the noise of Victory because it means that you you are able to actually lift
01:29:30
the block out because it's hard work it's like hard to get that that noise I just made was actually involuntary I'm
01:29:36
not kidding it just came out that was the noise of victory for me because I terrified you I don't even want an
01:29:41
autopsy anymore yeah I'm gonna put in my will to not autopsy me it's a good thing
01:29:46
I promise it was probably my fault don't autopsy it was probably my fault I like
01:29:51
that so yeah Wild now Dr Frederick Gordon Brown the city surgeon was called to the scene at 2 18 a.m he noted that
01:29:59
she appeared to have not been raped and she was still very warm now is can I ask
01:30:04
how would they even know if she had been raped because he slashed her from growing yeah I know from
01:30:10
buttocks to everywhere yeah to sternum and yeah I don't know I'm going to be honest with that one I don't know what
01:30:18
they were using as a a yardstick there but but I'll hey Dr Brown said no they all said none of them appeared to have
01:30:27
been sexually assaulted okay but yeah but they were sexually mutilated but they were sexual that's
01:30:32
the thing and they all obviously are like they were very much sexually mutilated they just weren't like raped
01:30:37
in the like you know uh I don't even know how you would say that during the actual sense of the word rape I suppose
01:30:45
sure um well and realistically he wouldn't have had time no everyone else that he
01:30:49
did that's the thing he definitely wouldn't have now a few police constables looked around the scene and
01:30:56
around the body and right next to the body some buttons from boots a metal button a thimble and a mustard tin with
01:31:03
two Pawn tickets were in it were found one of the tickets was signed with the surname Kelly
01:31:09
and at this point they were like we don't know who this person is so this is the only clue we have now she was
01:31:15
brought to Golden Lane Mortuary and she was stripped and washed now obviously she was not identified right away
01:31:21
because she had no identification on her so the press the Press published the details of what they found in her
01:31:27
pockets okay um because they were thinking you know hopefully somebody will be like oh I
01:31:32
know that yeah who carried that or like the pawn shop would be like cheap oh that's what this is
01:31:38
um in in the paper so they all included all of this which along with wearing they said she was wearing basically
01:31:44
everything that she owned on her body at the time oh she probably had to and she
01:31:48
was also carrying pretty much everything she owned at the time so they wrote this
01:31:52
that this was in her pockets and on her person a piece of string a common white handkerchief with a red border a
01:32:00
matchbox with cotton on it a white linen pocket containing a white bone handle table knife very blunt with no blood on
01:32:07
it two short clay pipes a red cigarette case with red metal fittings a check pocket containing five pieces of soap a
01:32:15
small tin box containing tea and sugar a portion of a pair of spectacles a three
01:32:20
Corner check handkerchief and a large white linen pocket containing a small comb a red Mitten and a ball of worsted
01:32:28
don't know what that is yeah I'll look it up she was also wearing like I said a ton of clothing many many layers she was
01:32:36
wearing a black fur trimmed jacket with an apron tied over the whole thing a chin skirt with three flounces a brown
01:32:43
Lindsay dress bodice with a black velvet collar a gray Petticoat a green alpaca skirt an old blue skirt with a red
01:32:50
flounce a white Calico chemise a men's white vest with buttons down the front men's lace-up boots a neck handkerchief
01:32:58
and a black straw Bonnet that was lined and trimmed with green and black velvet most of it had been cut right through
01:33:06
and was Bloody on all the edges which then again tells you how sharp that sharp was to cut through all of it and
01:33:11
not with a blunt top because you would need a sharp knife to get that cut right so then again that kind of uh helps your
01:33:17
point yeah because why is he switching knives right like he wouldn't kill one person with a beveled edge knife knife
01:33:25
like a blunt knife and then just switch knives for somebody else yeah I don't think so either that doesn't make sense
01:33:30
by the way worsted is a high quality type of wool yarn oh that's good to know thank you no problem now with these
01:33:36
details um that were published a man named John Kelly came forward saying he believed it may have been the woman that
01:33:43
he had been living with for seven years and he said her name is Catherine eddos she also went by Kate since we have been
01:33:51
together for this long sometimes people call her Miss Kelly oh so Catherine was born April 14 1842 in
01:33:59
grazley Green in the West Midlands she was one of 11 children her parents were Catherine and George eddos her mother
01:34:06
was a cook at the peacock Inn and her father was a tin plate varnisher at the old Hall works I looked this up because
01:34:13
I was like what's a TIN plate varnisher my God I just went on down like a rabbit
01:34:18
hole I was about this morning yeah Alina was like so last night I looked this thing
01:34:24
up and then I found and I was like we haven't had coffee can't stop we'll stop I cannot So eventually because I was
01:34:30
looking this up and he eventually moved the family to London because they were bringing in stamping machines to take
01:34:36
over the human tin jobs at the old Hall like some of the jobs so I was like what
01:34:41
so tin plate workers made beautiful tin products actually like when you see those beautiful trays or plates with
01:34:48
intricate designs all over them from the Victorian era oh pretty like painted designs that she does and like painted
01:34:55
designs on like gold leaf and such like that that's what it was so George was described as a varnisher and I found
01:35:02
that this meant he worked in the area where the beautiful product would come to him he would apply several coats of
01:35:07
varnish to it stove dry after each coat for varying periods of time until it was
01:35:13
all set then it would move to painters and and all that good stuff to do like the gold leaf and all that very cool
01:35:18
interesting jobs they were yeah it was just very interesting that is cool the stamping portion was like dangerous as
01:35:24
[ __ ] too like doing the stamp outs because it was like they were doing these tiny cutouts and if your finger
01:35:30
was in there you could like rip your finger off yeah so that was interesting so in 1848 the
01:35:36
family had moved to London where he could get a new job in the same kind of industry they actually moved to burmanzi
01:35:42
which is funny considering I just covered the Bermondsey horror recently uh four more children were born to
01:35:49
George and Catherine but only two survived uh Catherine attended a school called down gate charity School
01:35:55
specifically created to train poor children to just be able to get by and stay off the streets oh it wasn't a
01:36:01
school where she would learn to you know be something great or get out of her situation it was teaching her to have
01:36:06
the skills she could use to just keep her head above water uh because she was a girl she wasn't
01:36:12
taught math or anything that was actually going to Aid her in any kind of business venture no she was just taught
01:36:18
sewing in the Bible of his essentially like at this point it's like don't you want to create more jobs yeah it's like
01:36:24
girls can do it I promise you like look around you'll have maybe give them a shot deaths to investigate
01:36:30
now she was Catherine was Tiny adorable with curly or auburn hair and apparently
01:36:35
a sweet and lovely human um everyone called her chick because she was so tiny oh she loved to sing this
01:36:42
singing voice was something she carried into adulthood and people commented on her beautiful voice her entire life Wow
01:36:48
when Catherine was 13 her mother died of tuberculosis and 13 years old and her father died two years later oh man yeah
01:36:56
unfortunately this meant the younger siblings were all split up and put into workhouses and schools like the ones
01:37:01
Catherine was attending the older siblings were trying to make sure their siblings were you know could keep
01:37:07
basically just get good work stay out of trouble like they were trying to become
01:37:12
the parents they were her older siblings were able to get her Catherine in with her aunt Elizabeth and Uncle William who
01:37:19
was her father's brother oh good uh they were happy to take her in they were like
01:37:23
we're gonna get her work as like a domestic servant or something in Wolverhampton she was kind she was sweet
01:37:29
she acted as a surrogate and this is Aunt Elizabeth acting like a surrogate mother for Catherine like it was all
01:37:36
great good um and she was in a nice clean living space living in a nice home there were
01:37:41
opportunities the home was on bilston street and everyone around the community came to know and really love Catherine
01:37:48
she was Restless though she wasn't the kind of gal to just settle into a boring job and be content she was definitely
01:37:56
destined to do something more but was obviously just not given every opportunity to do it and it feels like
01:38:02
that is really the thing with a lot of these women I've said it before it's the theme throughout they're Restless
01:38:08
they're not content to just sit nope now around this time when she was 16 she met
01:38:13
a man named Thomas Conway he was from Kill Giver Lewisburg County Mayo in Ireland and he was older than her and a
01:38:21
soldier in the Royal Irish regiment they took a liking to each other but nothing
01:38:25
blossomed until later no she got a job at her father's old place of work at Old Hall she was a scourer which meant she
01:38:32
was there just to sweep and mop up after the workers she was fired very quickly for allegedly stealing allegedly
01:38:39
allegedly this was all it took her aunt and uncle kicked her out of the house oh
01:38:44
man yeah so I don't know how much how allegedly it was it feels like there might have been some uh might have known
01:38:50
that that happened but you know she moved in with another Uncle Thomas eddos in Birmingham and she lasted even less
01:38:56
time there and ended up moving back to Wolverhampton with her grandfather who got her a job as a tin Stamper so really
01:39:03
staying in that Tim business they loved him they loved him and tin in that family so basically she was the only she
01:39:10
was only going to be using um she was there to use the machine to emboss the design on stuff like I talked
01:39:15
about earlier the kind of dangerous job yeah literally only a couple of weeks later she quit and went back to
01:39:22
Birmingham well it was probably a lot yeah this is where she moved in with none other than her old Crush Thomas
01:39:28
Conway oh my goodness the flame at this time he had been pensioned from the military because he had gotten sick
01:39:36
but he was healthier now so now the two of them got together and they started traveling all over together he made and
01:39:43
sold chat books which were tiny little versions of literature and poetry books um they were usually hand bound and
01:39:50
comprised to like of many different source is from the inside other than this they started making money creating
01:39:56
Gallows ballads what is that they wrote and printed songs and poems about murderers who were about to be hanged oh
01:40:04
[ __ ] that's so very ironic so they traveled to different jails and literally sold these to people watching
01:40:10
a public execution and apparently they made some good money at it wow and there were a lot of hangings at this time so
01:40:17
it was like the couple were not officially married but Catherine went by Catherine Conway and would describe
01:40:23
Thomas as her husband okay she seemed very in love oh the couple was very intense and Catherine got TC tattooed on
01:40:31
her forearm and blue ink are you [ __ ] me I love it she was a rebel they had two children two daughters
01:40:37
named Annie and Catherine Anne I didn't even realize sorry that tattoos Could Happen yeah it was like a thing yeah
01:40:43
back then now in 1866 they actually did a Gallows ballad for her cousin Christopher Charles Robinson who was
01:40:51
hanged for murdering his fiancee in Cold Blood oh in 1868 they had a son named Thomas in this same year they outlawed
01:40:59
public executions which completely took away the need for Gallows ballads and boom source of income done depleted gone
01:41:06
they moved to Surrey around this time and she took up work as a laundress this is when things got bad the family
01:41:13
was in and out of workhouses now around these times and money was not coming in at all August 1873 while living in St
01:41:20
George's workhouse Catherine had another baby boy named Alfred George things went
01:41:25
from bad to worse things were Bleak now in both Thomas and Catherine were drinking heavily oh no it seemed the
01:41:32
only way to cope with the horrid times that they were living in but Thomas was an [ __ ] when he drank the real Thomas
01:41:39
came out and he was violent and would beat Catherine when he was drunk oh no yeah they broke up and he kept Thomas
01:41:47
and Alfred George and she took Annie and Catherine so they split the kids okay she asked if she could live with the um
01:41:53
her aunt Elizabeth and Uncle William again for the time being but they said absolutely not because you [ __ ] up
01:41:58
hard when you were living with us and you're not coming back okay a legend very uh tough love she was on the
01:42:04
streets now in London and she was and I think the kids were kind of like staying
01:42:09
with friends a lot of the time yeah uh her kids had like very you know um they had very uh conflicting things
01:42:16
to say one one of them felt one way about her and the other one felt the other way okay and those were her two
01:42:21
daughters yeah but they were with friends a lot I don't think they were with Catherine all that much now she was
01:42:27
on the Streets of London now she was drinking even more heavily and this was really the beginning of the end so she
01:42:33
began getting arrested for drunk and disorderly Behavior a lot and started sex work as a means of getting even just
01:42:39
enough money to put a roof over her head it's kind of unfortunately a similar tale to a lot of the victims it was
01:42:46
during this time that she found herself chatting with a man at spittlefield's Market his name was John Kelly yeah and
01:42:52
he had recently become a widow he was he had lost his wife he was kind he was sweet and he just wanted to make her
01:42:58
happy okay he was also sober great and the reason he was sober was he just didn't think it was worth spending money
01:43:05
on alcohol because he was like I don't have a lot so I'm not going to spend it on alcohol for this well that's the
01:43:09
thing right he was like and he said I'm working my ass off for precious little I'm not gonna waste it on drinks that
01:43:15
was his whole thing mom sadly she was still kind of telling people her name was Kate Conway even when people started
01:43:21
seeing her and John Kelly together and people would be like oh Mrs Kelly and she was like it's Conway and it was like
01:43:26
eek but I think she was really in love with Thomas Conway toxic situation and when they had spent years together
01:43:34
children together and you can't help who you love and I think she was just not willing to give up that relationship
01:43:40
like the idea of it again yeah well and I mean she was newly with this Adams man
01:43:45
so she's probably like I'm not like no yeah she basically she would answer to Kelly
01:43:53
sometimes but she would kind of flip back and forth like she would answer which again a lot of these women too and
01:43:58
a lot of people back then had a lot of aliases they were going by so I think that was just another way to have
01:44:03
different names too right so she was also suffering from Bright's disease what is that now we would call it
01:44:10
nephritis and it's an inflammation of the nephrons and the glomeruli which help the kidneys produce urine they're
01:44:17
part of the kidneys so she would have probably been suffering from a lot of symptoms associated with it including
01:44:23
shortness of breath back and flank pain fluid retention in her hands and her face it would have been like kind of
01:44:29
tough huh like exhaustion yeah so she I had no idea that one of them was suffering from that so she's sick now
01:44:37
that's just interesting hold on to that for me until later I mean put it in my back pocket put it in your back pocket
01:44:44
so they moved in together at 55 flower and Dean Street at Cooney's lodging house I was gonna say it was rough she
01:44:52
wore everything she owned because things were always being stolen and she was worried that something I hope she wasn't
01:44:57
too hot I think it was pretty well this was um kind of the beginning of fall at this point I suppose like into summer
01:45:03
warm and not too hot now that's again that's why she was found with so many layers because she was wearing them all
01:45:10
now the deputy of the 55 flowering Dean Street Place Frederick William Wilkinson
01:45:15
said that Catherine was quote a very jolly women woman she was described as a very jolly Woman by a lot of people very
01:45:21
jovial and confirm he confirmed that she and John Kelly lived like they were married later he would be the one to
01:45:28
give John Kelly an airtight Alibi for being at the lodging home at night the evening that Catherine was murdered he
01:45:35
was like no he was here all night no and I don't think you would have done it again they drifted together they drifted
01:45:40
like together and Solo in and out of workhouses and lodging houses sometimes they would be staying together sometimes
01:45:46
they wouldn't they would spend a lot of time apart but just drift back together again or as John described it later
01:45:52
quote be thrown together a lot she would often beg and borrow money from her daughters who were now grown they
01:45:59
resented it having been part of the downward spiral that she had taken when they were young so that was a difficult
01:46:04
relationship that she was navigating in the summer of 1888 they were comp they were common law married at this point
01:46:11
yeah and it only takes like 10 years right I think it's less isn't it like seven is oh I think I think it is yeah
01:46:18
seven because they were together seven years so that makes sense um it was this summer in 1888 that they
01:46:23
walked 40 miles together with tons of other workers from London to Kent to do hop picking which would be used to make
01:46:30
beer this was like a huge job a lot of people from London and White Chapel did this they would go do the Hop picking
01:46:37
and they would make some extra money you know this was a nice reprieve from the horrific air and conditions that they
01:46:44
were living in in the city that 40 mile walk was a nice retrieve exactly everything exactly it's true but this
01:46:52
was the first time that they were apparently together like together together all the time and could not
01:46:57
Escape each other and they were not getting along that great well I was gonna say maybe that's why they weren't
01:47:02
together together so much exactly so they ended up they did it they they made a little money not a lot ended up coming
01:47:10
back they left September 27th without a lot to show for it but you know they split up the night they arrived back at
01:47:17
London didn't split up like break up they just kind of like went their separate ways exactly John Kelly went to
01:47:23
stay at the lodging house on flower and Dean Street and Catherine ended up having to go to a couple of work houses
01:47:29
and do manual labor for her stays apparently September 28th she told the manager of Mile and workhouse quote I
01:47:38
have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the White Chapel murderer I think I know him
01:47:43
oh and they were just like okay like they were like who is he he's like she's like I don't know and then they were
01:47:50
like be careful not to become a victim of him out there and she said oh no fear of that oh no and this was on September
01:47:58
28th that's wild and I'm sorry what day was she and this was basically this was the day before so and she was like oh no
01:48:06
fear of that how strange is that and there's a couple other things that like like weird lineups like yeah because I
01:48:11
think um I want to say it was Annie Chapman that was talking in the kitchen of a lodging house about how scary it
01:48:18
was and it was yeah now September 29th um John Kelly and Catherine met for breakfast they had breakfast together
01:48:25
kind of went their own separate ways but they planned to meet back up later that
01:48:29
day uh when they did see each other again it was around 2PM Catherine said she was going to try to go to Bermondsey
01:48:36
to see her daughter Annie and ask for money and she told John that she would be back
01:48:42
in White Chapel around 4pm and we can meet up then I don't know how that went but she certainly wasn't rolling back
01:48:49
into White Chapel at 4 pm in good condition she was seen on something that they called prostitutes Island oh man
01:48:56
and where a lot of women would stand on to try to solicit clients I suppose she was very drunk at this time and
01:49:04
according to the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper victims she was in many sources say and Reports say she was
01:49:11
pretending to do an imitation of a fire engine okay interesting tidbit I found um there was this blog and I will link
01:49:20
to this Vlog because it was really good it was called the history girls blog spot
01:49:24
um if this is at least an interesting explanation for what Catherine was actually going through when she they
01:49:30
said she was doing in drunken impersonation of a fire engine this is just like a take on it because I was
01:49:35
like what is that yeah what is a drunken imitation of a fire engine even like do
01:49:39
you want me to do one like what would it be but would would it sound like that back
01:49:51
then well I don't know what a fire engine sounds like back then that's what I mean I don't know what fire engines
01:49:56
sounded like back then I don't know so I don't know if that would be even because
01:50:00
that's what I thought of like was she making siren noises yeah but I'm like is that what they sounded like back then I
01:50:05
don't even know I assume they would have some kind of well I don't know they would but I just
01:50:10
don't know if it would sound like they did now now this is interesting according to the writer of this blog who
01:50:15
I believe is named Lori but I'm not positive um she posited that maybe due to her
01:50:21
kidney issues which would have left her short of breath maybe she was huffing and puffing like a steam engine fire
01:50:27
trucks were run that way back then by the way and she either ended up going with it because she was getting a laugh
01:50:33
from people who thought she was doing some kind of impersonation and she actually didn't mean to be causing a
01:50:38
scene or maybe she was just drunk and completely out of control and just making a lot of noise but any like there
01:50:46
is a possibility that she was sick and suffering which makes the story even a little different instead of just being
01:50:52
like what she was doing an impersonation of a fire engine it's like maybe she was
01:50:56
just like not able to breathe yeah and people took that as like that's funny what are you doing and she's like oh I'm
01:51:02
being a fire engine like maybe it had to do with her being sick I could have this
01:51:06
just was like it was basically like a very empathetic possible point of view to share and I
01:51:11
just thought it was like a very interesting one it was one that was looking at her as less of just a drunk
01:51:17
you know person person of the night yeah and instead of making her a human who was suffering and maybe was just going
01:51:25
with it or maybe she was just [ __ ] hilarious exactly it's it's just like basically I've kept seeing the fire
01:51:32
engine imitation thing and I was like well I don't know what that looks like one and then two I was like I just I
01:51:37
think that's like a different point of view and it's just interesting because you won't know but it's just something
01:51:42
to think about right and it again reminds you to look at her as somebody who was suffering so I'll link that blog
01:51:49
because I think it's an interesting blog and I wanted to get hit well and it's nice that somebody took the time to like
01:51:53
consider a different point of view right yeah and she didn't say like I know this
01:51:56
she was like yeah you just don't know this right no we got to look at the fact that she did have this kidney disease so
01:52:02
she was arrested that night at 8 30 p.m when a police Constable named George Simmons and another one named Lewis
01:52:09
Robinson found her on the ground on aldgate High Street and she was out cold okay uh they tried to pick her up and
01:52:16
she just like slumped back over which also could have been hand in hand again with her illness yeah she was buried
01:52:22
yeah I was going to say she was shit-faced here this was definitely not the illness but you know not good yeah
01:52:27
so she was taken to Bishops Gate Police Station very intoxicated at this time they asked her her name and she replied
01:52:35
nothing okay which okay she was put in a cell to sober up because they would just
01:52:40
put you in assault wait for a while and be like you good and then just let you out girl they still do it's the drunk
01:52:45
tank but everyone who interacted with her at the station that night said she smelled very strongly of drink and could
01:52:52
not stand up on her own at all so she was in a bad way that night I love that they just say a drink of drink at 12 15
01:53:00
a.m she woke up and they heard her singing softly to herself in like this beautiful voice and that's just what she
01:53:07
would do she would sing softly to herself around 12 30 a.m she said hey when are you gonna let me out of here oh
01:53:14
I wish they had it they said when you're able to take care of yourself we'll let
01:53:18
you out of here so around 1am they let her out she told them before they left she left they were like we need to know
01:53:24
your name address she said her name was Marianne Kelly okay and that she lived at six fashion Street in spitalfields
01:53:31
okay so PC George Hutt let her leave and when she did she turned and said good night old [ __ ] that's iconic there are
01:53:41
reports that she was still drunk at this time but they just figured she couldn't
01:53:44
go anywhere at all to get more drinks so they're really supposed to go home oh she said like just like if they had just
01:53:51
kept longer she would have been probably around it's really sad but this is interesting she did say and
01:54:00
this is in the official reports everywhere you read this it's she did say I shall get a damned fine hiding
01:54:06
when I get home and George Hutt replied which I was like okay George he wrote and serve you right
01:54:13
you have no right to get drunk [ __ ] off which that's that wasn't even like the but that's like [ __ ] you George
01:54:20
but also I'm like so was John Kelly abusing her maybe like was that I'm like who are you
01:54:26
talking about or was she just drunk and she was thinking she was going home to Thomas Conway oh yeah maybe she was like
01:54:32
oh like because they did say she was very drunk when she was leave or they believed she was still so maybe she
01:54:39
was still drunk at thinking like back to when she lived with Thomas Conway and like I'm gonna get home and he's gonna
01:54:44
hurt me or was it possible that she was thinking about going back to the workhouse and like maybe somebody there
01:54:49
like yeah I don't know Sarah would be upset that she was like that and yeah just a very strange comment I thought
01:54:55
considering John Kelly by all accounts was not said to be an abuser hmm I mean were there a lot of accounts
01:55:03
though I guess everybody who knew him was like I didn't know them to get into those kind of fights and usually he
01:55:08
didn't have a lot of privacy if you were going to get into an abusive fight it was going to be around like eight other
01:55:12
families in a room yeah so so I don't know for sure none of us do but it's a very strange comment I just thought it
01:55:20
was weird I mean a lot of people were hitting their wives back then they were that's the thing and I'm like was this
01:55:25
just like a normal comment to make probably but like and then also he didn't like that she dreamed because he
01:55:31
didn't drink exactly so maybe that was it I don't know now it was just interesting so at 1 35 she was spotted
01:55:39
by Witnesses Joseph Levy and Harry uh Harry Harris at the corner of Duke Street and church passage which was an
01:55:46
Avenue that led into miter Square that's where she would later be found she was talking to a man according to
01:55:53
them very closely she had her hand on his chest uh he was said to be medium builds about five foot seven in
01:56:00
somewhere in the area of 30 years old he was fair complected with a mustache we heard this in a lot of the other ones he
01:56:08
was wearing a grayish jacket with a red scarf or neck handkerchief and a gray cloth hat with a peek heard that before
01:56:15
too this is a hat that's almost like a scally cap like almost like a peaky blender hat but it's got like a little
01:56:22
more height to it okay like almost like a Newsboy cap I guess you would say like
01:56:26
one of those yeah yeah you know yep um I'm sure I'm like is that I want that yeah you're right now Levy said that he
01:56:33
when he they passed by them Levy had said he said to Harris look there I don't like going home by myself when I
01:56:39
see those characters about right like he was really cool he later said he was like I wasn't nervous or like thinking
01:56:45
they were gonna hurt me he just figured seeing a man and a woman seemingly chatting closely in a dark alley at
01:56:50
almost 2 am probably meant they were not up to any anything wholesome yeah so he
01:56:55
was like that's all I was saying I didn't think they were threatening in any way either one of them 1 45 a.m only
01:57:00
about 10 minutes later she was discovered ravaged and disemboweled on the street in the dark
01:57:07
now while removing her clothing doctors found a piece of her ear when it dropped
01:57:12
out of her the fabric of her clothing just dropped on the ground oh yeah Dr Brown performed the autopsy but pres um
01:57:20
but present to observe the whole thing was Dr George William sakera Dr Phillips and Dr William Sanders
01:57:29
now when he began the examination he noticed that both eyelids had been sliced open like vertically uh the left
01:57:37
one had a quarter inch slice through the lower lid and the right was sliced all the way through there was also a very
01:57:43
deep laceration that began at the bridge of her nose and extended across her right cheek to her jaw it had cut down
01:57:51
to the bone in her face wow the tip of her nose was sliced off and her upper lip was also cut in half down to the gum
01:58:00
which was sliced underneath it her mouth was sliced at the right side of it up into her cheek and both of her cheeks
01:58:08
underneath her eyes had little triangular Cuts with the that the skin flapped over okay like very deliberate
01:58:16
Cuts triangles under her eyes which was not seen in any other ones no now the cut to the abdomen that completely
01:58:26
eviscerated her was Jagged and described as zigzagged but from a sketch I saw in
01:58:33
Scotland Yard investigates it looks to me like more of an attempt to avoid slicing the belly button in half and why
01:58:40
would you not want to do that so this is what so here's the thing the cut extends
01:58:44
from the breastbone down to the groin pelvic bone and it takes a quick detour from its straight path when it hits that
01:58:51
navel and I'm just speaking from my experience with eviscerating but when we would start the eviscerations
01:58:58
and begin with the why shaped incision we would intentionally divert the cut around the belly button before bringing
01:59:06
it back down to the pelvic area it was just a thing we did to not split the navel in half okay that's all to me this
01:59:13
indicates that it could possibly some be someone who has performed an autopsy before and their muscle memory causes
01:59:20
them to eviscerate like that because they've been doing it like that I know this is murder and not a clinical
01:59:26
evisceration but if they are used to doing that it may just be habit like if I'm going to cut a body open this is how
01:59:33
I do it just doesn't even think about it just whoop takes that detour I would never just I would never my I don't
01:59:39
think my brain would let me after hundreds of autopsies cut straight down through that navel yeah it would be an
01:59:45
automatic detour around that navel yeah so that was interesting to me seeing that because I was like wait a second
01:59:51
that's how I cut and I that's and that's just how I've been taught to cut right and was he taught to cut like that
01:59:59
yeah I'm obviously as you're saying this I'm just trying to figure out who this guy is yes now the report even says that
02:00:06
the cut was straight down to within a quarter of an inch from the navel and then went horizontal and around the left
02:00:12
side of the navel before coming back around and going straight back down again leaving that navel untouched yeah
02:00:19
I think they said um in one of the books I saw it was like on a tongue of skin they called it sure now to make me even
02:00:24
more suspicious that this was someone with at least a medical background they had removed her left kidney cleanly
02:00:33
like that's also weird because she had kidney problems exactly they had sliced through the renal capsule and removed it
02:00:40
the renal capsule is like this thin layer that this like encapsulating the kidney okay Dr Brown said he believed
02:00:46
this was definitely someone with knowledge of anatomy and direct and dissection because they had to know
02:00:52
where the kidney was located first of all which I don't know where the [ __ ] my
02:00:55
kidneys it's not easy to find when you open from the front because their their kidneys are closer to closer to the back
02:01:01
yeah and so there when you open from the front you got to look for them they're not just right there for you to see like
02:01:07
they're not just like hanging above something are they like in the middle are they toward your lower back they're
02:01:11
towards the lower right and it's they're not easy to find and part of her uterus
02:01:16
was also removed against another uterus removed and take the killer took these two things with them in part of the
02:01:22
uterus yeah like I guess he he took most of the uterus but it wasn't as clean as
02:01:27
the other one was but the kidney was clean they had cut it at the right vessel they they had removed it in a way
02:01:34
that wasn't just torn out of the body she had kidney disease was this someone who knew who she was knew she had a
02:01:43
kidney disease and did that to kind of doctor yeah also her liver had been stabbed her
02:01:51
vagina and rectum had been lacerated and stabbed the killer had sliced to the right thigh
02:01:57
up to the labia and separated that as well to create one big flap of skin the pancreas and spleen were also lacerated
02:02:05
and stabbed and like the others she had died from the Hemorrhage of the several severed carotid artery and everything
02:02:12
else was done postmortem and so so you said the pancreas the spleen and the liver and the liver because you first
02:02:20
said the liver so I thought oh is this somebody that knows her no she's a heavy drinker and grabbing the liver to put
02:02:26
that out there but the pancreas spleen I mean it all works together it's all kind
02:02:31
of yeah one big happy family in there so it's like you're gonna but it's just and
02:02:36
I don't know if those were like frenzied stabs but yeah no matter what she he took the kidney he took the uterus he
02:02:43
sliced off her ear only part of her ear came out of her clothing would her kidneys have looked different because
02:02:50
they they would have had like a shriveled kind of appearance and pale so again you wonder if it's like this guy
02:02:56
has some kind of like Anatomy null definitely has some kind of anatomy knowledge but then also like
02:03:02
some kind of Interest too yeah and like he would want that kidney for something exactly because that's because I'm like
02:03:08
okay so did he know that she had a kidney problem or when he opened her up because he has this Medical knowledge
02:03:13
then he realized she did and he just wanted that kidney and it's like where is the light coming from how are you
02:03:20
seeing this [ __ ] how are you finding that [ __ ] kidney in her body in a matter of under 15
02:03:28
minutes and the only thing that you can think of is a lantern but like but nobody saw anybody with a lantern and is
02:03:35
he holding the lantern in one hand while also using or is he placing it somewhere
02:03:39
like she this is done on the ground obviously so is that why he well he does the windpipe thing to
02:03:45
silence them but also to like kill them quickly maybe to put their his Lantern on them question mark I don't know
02:03:50
that's possibly are fetched but it's just like what the [ __ ] is this guy he has to have some light there's no way
02:03:57
that he's doing this without like oh hell no so what what would be a light source back then other than Elena just a
02:04:02
lantern right that's all you would have or like a match which like that doesn't make that makes even less sense yeah so
02:04:08
it's like what the [ __ ] like was he he must have just placed it down on her or
02:04:13
on next to her right but that's not even a lot of light like that's a a lot of work to do in very dim light and very
02:04:20
quickly well in this I was just gonna say the speed at which he did it would make you think that he's somebody who's
02:04:25
done this for a while and that he the the thing is it's like he went in there with a with a plan he went in
02:04:34
there looking for a kidney it seems to me because it's like I don't think he's just opening up and being like because
02:04:40
he's gonna be the first thing that jumps out of you because again we said they're
02:04:44
closer to your back exactly through the front he's gonna have to like sorry but dig well no he that he is and it's also
02:04:51
in our it's in a capsule of its own it's not out there and like sliced and sliced
02:04:56
it open without you know and I I just don't think he would have just randomly dug in there
02:05:02
and somehow found the renal capsule and then decided to open it up and take a kidney no it doesn't make a lot of that
02:05:09
you don't have a lot of time he had to have been going in there with a plan I'm getting the kidney up so then we're back
02:05:14
too because I I had said maybe he just saw that her kidneys were messed up so no that wasn't I feel like he had a plan
02:05:20
that he was going in there for a kidney I feel I don't know why but he went in there for a reason there's I just don't
02:05:26
feel like the kidney would be the thing you'd rip out first it just doesn't but then it's like me
02:05:32
yeah like I'm I want to think that he must have known her medical history yeah but then
02:05:39
like like how did he know that she was going to be there when she was you know what I mean well that's the other was he
02:05:44
following her it's like but then you would think if he was following her that night and she did end up in jail he
02:05:49
probably would have given up and started walking home well then there's also the
02:05:53
fact that um there were a few Witnesses who said that John Kelly told them that he heard
02:05:59
that she was in jail that she had been arrested that night and he was like oh she'll be out by the morning
02:06:05
so he I word around town was that she had gotten arrested so maybe someone waited outside that jail for yeah
02:06:13
because I'm sorry was this close by the jail that's where she was discovered yeah
02:06:18
so she hadn't walked like crazy far because I think it was only like a few minute walk this is a [ __ ] stump I
02:06:24
kid it's there's so I it's because it's a fascinating case because her in particular I do feel like he knew her
02:06:32
earlier of her medical history but then it's also the case of like because the kidney thing is just weird he also
02:06:40
escalates each time that's the other that's the other reason I don't believe Elizabeth's stride is part of the series
02:06:46
and if she was then that was not his intention was just to do that right because if you look at it it goes from
02:06:53
you know Pauline um polymerian Nichols was the first one she was ravaged for sure but then Annie Chapman had the
02:07:01
intestines then we get to Catherine eddos who is ravaged and then the last one we're gonna get to is the crescendo
02:07:09
so to me it felt like it was like he was ratcheting it up a notch each time intentionally yeah and this was I don't
02:07:16
know but it's just really wild to me and like I said in all of these cases the mutilation is done postmortem he's
02:07:27
he kills them right away with that severed one pipe how quickly would they die from a severed windpipe very quickly
02:07:33
very quickly yeah like because you would just not be able to breathe okay so that
02:07:36
would and then uh like bleeding out because he would sever those carotid arteries and boom very exactly at least
02:07:42
at least they were not alive for any of the mutilation but during the examination they also found the apron
02:07:48
that she was wearing on top of everything that like one layer um it had been cut through with a knife
02:07:54
and part of it was missing like part of like there was a piece of fabric that wasn't there
02:07:59
so soon after this Constable Alfred long found the missing sliced apron piece on
02:08:05
ghoulston Street which was only about a 10 minute walk from the murder scene the
02:08:09
piece of apron also appeared to have blood on it but not just on it it appeared that someone had wiped blood
02:08:15
onto it possibly from a bloody knife oh like like he had maybe taken it and smeared like taking it to use to clean
02:08:22
the knife upon further inspection this is interesting and this points back to the anti-Semitism kind of thing that was
02:08:29
going on he found writing in chalk right next to where they found this apron like down a
02:08:35
passageway and it looked like it had been just written in chalk like very recently
02:08:41
um and it said and I quote the Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing
02:08:47
the Jews are not the men that will will be blamed for nothing which to me is someone trying to make it seem like to
02:08:55
blame it on Jewish people like this is somebody who's trying to make it look like a Jewish person wrote that like
02:09:00
we're not going to believe Elaine for anything yeah and it's just very what's and why I point this out is one to point
02:09:06
out the anti-Semitism that was going on here and how they were really trying to pin this on a Jewish person
02:09:12
um just for being Jewish like no other reason and regardless of who did this or what it meant it was evidence because it
02:09:19
was found right next to the apron and it seemed to be very recently put there right now A City detective Daniel Halsey
02:09:26
stayed with the writing and stated to the other officers unseen that he would remain there and he was like until it
02:09:32
gets lighter outside then we'll try to take a photograph of it because it's evidence no it rained it rained
02:09:40
stupidity is what it rained oh okay Sir Charles Warren showed up a little before
02:09:45
5 a.m and told them it had to be erased from the wall immediately because people
02:09:50
would see it and it would be dangerous for people and he was not willing to wait even less than an hour for light to
02:09:56
come he was like why can't you just keep people away from the area dude Halsey begged him to wait until late so they
02:10:02
could photograph it but before destroying it and he was like I'll stay here with it we can even cover it like
02:10:07
if you want like just we have to keep it here so we can get it in evidence like you can't just write it down we need
02:10:12
photograph of it yeah well and then like I mean handwriting analysis back then like I don't know but at least you could
02:10:17
like have him write that thing and look at it because as we'll see some letters come in later I know and so Sir Charles
02:10:25
Warren was like no they're gonna wreck this house they're gonna Riot no like we're not doing it now this was not a
02:10:30
house it was a like huge apartment building and this was in like a Stairway leading to the apartment building they
02:10:35
wouldn't have torn this place down no and even like in complete Jack the Ripper the rumbola one he says the same
02:10:42
thing he's like that was [ __ ] like that was a [ __ ] excuse for him to use and
02:10:47
so Halsey was like come on man and then Halsey and the other officer suggested why don't we just rub out the word Jews
02:10:54
on here so that it's not but you know it's not immediately igniting anything like why don't we rub that out or cover
02:11:01
it everything else stays we take a picture but please dude and he said absolutely not and in fact according to
02:11:09
the acting commissioner of the city police Major Smith he said that Sir Charles Warren erased the entire piece
02:11:16
of writing himself before they were able to get any picture of it don't know what that was about do you
02:11:22
only learn about him in criminal justice school because of this case or other cases as well there's so many other K
02:11:26
like you learn about like Bloody Sunday and you learn about like he was head of the you know the Metropolitan Police
02:11:32
Force he kind of turned it very militarized which was like a whole thing so not the best so it's like eek but by
02:11:40
this time acting ahead of the CID Robert Anderson Our Little Switzerland buddy who's on holiday does he come back he
02:11:47
does okay he was forced to return back to London from Paris where he had traveled to be closer during his doctor
02:11:53
mandated holiday and he literally landed in Paris the night of the double event oh [ __ ] so they were like you need to
02:12:02
come home and he was like oh [ __ ] so the Home Secretary told him I hold you solely responsible for solving these
02:12:09
murders hey guys he said and I quote I hold myself responsible to take all legitimate means to find him so he was
02:12:22
like I will do my best but I will do my best and in response to this because now
02:12:28
he's feeling a lot of pressure and he's feeling a lot of like oh [ __ ] Anderson
02:12:32
suggested that any sex worker found outside after midnight should be arrested or they should be told that
02:12:39
they will not be protected by police if they remain outside okay which I was like uh no luckily everyone was like
02:12:46
dude yeah chill I said just to be clear I was like okay okay like I wasn't like okay yeah great good idea no everybody
02:12:54
was like I think you need to go back on vacation like calm down you're like why why are we punishing the sex workers for
02:12:59
getting murdered for getting murdered are you joking right now but just to eat and get a roof over there like maybe we
02:13:04
could create some jobs for them but that didn't happen they were like no let's not do that no never
02:13:09
um so this is what it brings us to and this is where we'll end up kind of ending it on this episode I don't think
02:13:16
it's long enough the letters I'm going to briefly touch upon them in this part and then we will
02:13:24
talk about them more in the next one for some reason ever ever since I've known about Jack the Ripper which obviously
02:13:30
you like introduced me to this case I have always found the letters to be one of the most fascinating Parts they're
02:13:37
fascinating I mean like from hell that's come on like okay yeah because you tried
02:13:42
you tried now even back in the 1800s people were writing hoax letters and being dicks in the middle of a murder
02:13:49
investigation it was just we are people are always gonna people unfortunately those are always gonna troll the trolls
02:13:56
of back then but there are some letters very few that seemed like they have they
02:14:00
could be real so one that I think might be the real deal is the dear boss letter
02:14:06
yes now this was sent right before the double event right before it was sent before it it
02:14:15
was sent to the central news agency in London on September 28 1888 so this was two days before two or one day excuse me
02:14:23
one day before one day two day one day before this is like Drunk History it was dated on the letter September 25th like
02:14:33
he had written it on September 25th and the details make me think it could be real it was given to police by a
02:14:39
reporter Thomas John bowling so this is what it says Dear boss I keep on hearing
02:14:44
the police have caught me but they won't fix me just yet I just I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about
02:14:50
being on the right track that joke about leather apron gave me real fits I'm down
02:14:55
on [ __ ] and I shan't quit ripping them till I do get buckled Grand work the last job was I gave the lady no time to
02:15:02
squeal how can they catch me now I love my work and want to start again you will
02:15:07
soon hear of me with the funny little games I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the
02:15:13
last job to write with but it went thick Like Glue and I can't use it red ink is
02:15:17
fit enough I hope ha ha the next job I and then this is where like I was like whoa the next job I do I shall clip the
02:15:26
lady's ears off and send them to police officers just for Jolly wouldn't you keep this letter till I do a bit more
02:15:32
work then give it out straight my knife is nice and sharp I want to get to work right away if I get a chance
02:15:39
good luck Yours Truly Jack the Ripper don't mind me giving the trade name wasn't good enough to post this before I
02:15:45
got all the red ink off my hands curse it no luck yet they say I am a doctor now haha
02:15:51
hmm he said I shall clip the lady's ears off and he clipped a lady's ear off he didn't he didn't send them but I don't
02:16:01
know if it's because he maybe he couldn't find time they were stuck in and here's another thing they were stuck
02:16:05
in her clothing they didn't find them until they it fell out of her clothes maybe he was searching for them and
02:16:11
couldn't find them and had to hurt people and had to get out of there before he could grab it but it's weird
02:16:16
to me that he cut her ear off yeah and this was written before that happened I think this one this one is definitely
02:16:22
real very weird and this letter was posted in the media because the police were desperate at the time I think it
02:16:28
would have been a lot better to hold this one close to the chest and see if another communication came in without
02:16:33
the Press involved but hey I'm not part of the metropolitan police force in 1888
02:16:39
proudly spoken you know Sir Charles Warren was he thought that this should be put in the
02:16:46
Press I just don't agree now another communication was sent posted October 1st 1888 8. so it was meant to seem like
02:16:54
it was written right after the double event like literally within 12 hours it was a postcard that looked like the
02:17:00
original letter but had what appeared to be blood smeared all over it this one said I was not codding dear boss when I
02:17:08
gave you the tip you'll hear about Saucy Jack's work tomorrow double event this time number one squealed a bit couldn't
02:17:15
finish straight off had not time to get ears for police thanks for keeping last letter back till I got to work again
02:17:21
Jack the Ripper what do you think about this one that one if it is truly sent the day after the
02:17:30
event then it I don't really know because it was posted in the in the media what this but like some of the
02:17:36
details right so they could have I think this one's like Saucy Jack I don't know about that one
02:17:43
he's like a silly guy when it comes when it comes to his writing I mean yeah he's
02:17:48
Saucy but like I don't know if he would refer to himself as Saucy Jack that one I don't feel interesting but I
02:17:57
don't feel completely I will just do it and it's it's the kind of thing where it's like I don't know because the event
02:18:02
it was already it was already there so it's hard to say it's really hard I could see it being him and I could also
02:18:09
see why it wouldn't be him exactly that one I feel like I'm like very in the middle I'm on the fence with that one
02:18:13
the deer boss one I feel pretty is pretty compelling the dear boss one I've always been like yes Jack I'm like I'm a
02:18:19
dear boss truther I think I like I feel pretty I feel pretty right and the letter that still captivates
02:18:26
those who read this case is definitely the from Hell letter yep it was a letter not received by the central news agency
02:18:33
instead this one was sent to the head of the White Chapel vigilance committee George Lusk
02:18:39
the letter was sent from hell and it contained part of a kidney I think that one was real
02:18:48
that one I'm gonna go with was real and we are going to talk about it in part three
02:18:52
part four oh part four part 65 whichever one we are on we hope we're gonna cover it yeah we're
02:19:01
gonna cover it on the next one and and I think we'll be done after the next part
02:19:05
I'm pretty sure I am not so sure all right get me out here all right folks we uh hope that you keep listening
02:19:15
and we hope you keep it weird but also whether you do an episode of Jack the Ripper that lasts 218 things two two at
02:19:25
hours and 18 minutes sorry I said 218. you sure did you sure did [Music]