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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is [Music] morbid small small in the afternoon it's
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a It's a Spooky rainy afternoon today oh my God the Thunder I don't know why would talking
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like this I don't know either it feels very big Edge the glasses got to GL the mirror got to
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happen it's my favorite thing ever man I love it I love big an rip my sweet queen
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we're just trying to make ourselves laugh before like yes we're in part two of the um kidnapping and murder of
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Marian Parker and I will say that the the absolute worst is over okay part one now we're just going to go to the
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absolute zaniness of what happened afterwards I hope it's not zany in a way where I'm going to be so horrifically
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pissed off you no oh okay at the end you will go yeah yeah at the very end so know that going in know that any frust
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ations you feel I just feel like we all need this we don't need to be on the edge of our seats no any frustration you
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feel at the end you're going to go yeah yeah she's doing like a little tell you that the tiniest fist bump but like with
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the biggest impact hell yeah okay all right all right let's go but it's going to be wild
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it's going to be wild nois is here in these parts here in these parts so when we left you in part one uh they had
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discovered that William Hickman was the murderer he was 19 years old they were pursuing him all over the damn place the
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fact that he's 19 is still boggling my [ __ ] mind yes they had spotted him in Portland Oregon um and then
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that's where a gas station attendant had seen him filling his tank and like I said before by this point his photograph
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was literally everywhere you could not go somewhere without seeing this man's photograph um so they were getting
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sightings all over the place and the last one they got was that um someone said they saw him headed in the
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direction of the Columbia River Gorge yeah that made me nervous now from the moment reporters were made aware of
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Marian's kidnapping the Press went wild as we talked about I mean they pursued this case crazy yeah but once the
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suspect was named and the investigators began their Interstate pursuit of William Hickman the coverage increased
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like a h hundredfold i mean in papers across California and honestly the Pacific Northwest as a whole the police
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Chase was chronicled in all the front page stories this was the biggest story cuz you said this was like one of the
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most one of the biggest manh hunts in La history right oh yeah it was massive nuts massive but that wasn't all during
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the first week of the investigation newspapers included dozens of it wasn't just front page it was like all these
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articles in all of the newspapers I mean dozens of them and like talking about the kidnapper now that they had the
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identity um I mean it would it would take up like five pages in a newspaper like daily damn so it was like Prime
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real estate it was taken up a lot of people's days everyone was getting fed constant information about this which
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was feeding everyone's anger and everyone's like just sense of justice and wanting to get this guy like this
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guy had I don't know where he thought he was going to go there was not a safe Corner in this Earth for him yeah it
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reminds me of like the nightstalker where every just thinking yeah he there's no safe place on Earth for you
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[ __ ] like so we're looking for you your photograph is everywhere and when we see you you're going to get [ __ ]
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you're going to get got but in in now like decades and decades later similar events like the one that we all think of
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probably in our minds like the slow motion OJ Simpson car chase in 1994 that was the same kind of coverage that this
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was receiving like not on the television but in 1927 nothing was covered like this
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so it's like when when the OJ Simpson Cas happened that was massive news but we had seen that kind of coverage before
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like or that was at least like you know the one of the ones that stands out in everyone's mind in 1927 unprecedented
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like this was the first of its kind to really do this um and this kind of coverage like it does now when something
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like like we've seen this like it does now when people cover it like this like one of the ones I think of is like the
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Gabby petito case yes how it was covered so care like closely and minute by minute and we were all so invested in it
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we were so invested in Gabby and like just really wanting this like good outcome it also gives people like the
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impression that they are like along for this like they feel like toe to- Toe with law enforcement almost and it also
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adds a more emotional investment in the case like it makes you feel like this is
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someone you know yes when it's covered like that it like really makes you feel like you're part of it oh ab and that's
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how people felt with this they felt like Maran was theirs and that this guy they
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were going to [ __ ] find him cuz you can relate to that on some human level like not not all the details obviously
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but but like anybody with a soul can look at this and empathize and say holy [ __ ] like I can like I'm here with you
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and let's get this [ __ ] exactly now as investigators trailed Hickman from one one state you know to another all across
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the Northwest they were thinking that this would hopefully all be over soon and they would just have their killer
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they were not enjoying this like wild goose chase Chief Herman Klein told reporters on the night of um December
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21st because remember this is all happening in the span of like a week it feels like so much has happened it's
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also crazy that it's just like literally like days before Christmas days before Christmas is is happening he told
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reporters the search in my opinion is near its end we are all hopeful that here that the search will provide
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success will prove successful and that the fiend will be under arrest within a few hours I also miss when people would
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be referred to as fiends because it's a very good way to describe someone like this like he is a [ __ ] fiend fiend is
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perfect you know it just feels right um luckily Chief Klein's confidence would prove to be well placed because on the
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afternoon of December 22nd the day after two police officers in Echo Oregon spotted Hickman driving and recognized
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him from the wall posters and they started giving Chase [ __ ] when he saw the sirens he pulled off the side of
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the road and when the officer appeared at his car he asked whether he had been speeding and that's why he was pulled
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over not exactly so they asked him to identify himself and he said his name was PE and he was headed he was from
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Seattle just peek but then when they asked him to step out of the car a pistol fell from his pants pocket and
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that kind of gave him away yeah that'll do it after a brief round of questioning
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Hickman gave up the RO and exhaustedly said yes I am Edward Hickman will Edward Hickman you're William Edward Hickman
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people went by their midle names a lot back then I feel like people still do even yeah it's true but way more common
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back then you're right now on the morning of December 23rd the day before Christmas Eve wow readers all across
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California were very relieved to hear that the quote unquote Fox who had absolutely terrified and terrorized them
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for the previous week had finally been caught I forgot that he was referring to himself as the fox the fox like gets so
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[ __ ] it adds such a juvenile level to something so not juvenile in any way it's very 19-year-old it is like you
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know at first Hickman attempted to deny having anything to do with Marian's kidnapping or murder good luck with that
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but before long he kind of got confronted with all the [ __ ] evidence against him so he came up with a new
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story before a crowd of reporters in law enforcement he kind of proudly explained
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that he had been supporting himself on the money he'd made from smalltime holdups and that's when he met Andrew
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Kramer and June Dunning a couple from San Diego and he said we just held up drugstores in places like that but he
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said what he really wanted was to pull a job that would earn him about $1,500 so he could return to college in
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Kansas City which is when the three of them came up with the idea to kidnap Marian
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Parker she he said I happen to remember that Mr Parker from the bank had a daughter and he added that there she was
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actually their second choice the first one they were going to do but they abandoned the plan was to kidnap one of
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the chief officers at the bank wow and I just realized that's why when he went into school he asked for the daughter
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because he would see her go to the bank with him exactly because she loved to go
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to work with her dang with her dad cuz they had such a tight Bond wow yeah so he watched this man have this close
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relationship with his daughter who loved him and adored him and he was like yeah
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that's what I'm going to do 12 years old yeah now this story he just told was like partially true in the year leading
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up to the kidnapping Hickman had been involved in several smalltime armed robberies including one where a
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pharmacist and a police officer were shot and seriously wounded oh my goodness um but these robberies had been
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committed with his high school friend wellby hunt right not Andrew Kramer June Dunning and in fact as far as anyone
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could tell they couldn't even find evidence to support that Kramer Dunning even existed I was waiting for that but
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Hickman stuck to his story that it was Kramer not he who had murdered Marian Bri Seinfeld in fact he claimed to the
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Los Angeles Times Marian and I were like brother and sister she liked me but did
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not like Kramer and said she would like to stay with me all the time no that's not the truth now this
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your [ __ ] eyes open how dare you yeah he how dare you now the story that he initially told investigators was bizarre
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and very dubious according to Hickman quote he only wanted 200 or 300 out of the
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1500 and they had planned to return the girl unharmed once the ransom was delivered and he confessed to writing
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and sending the telegrams to The Parkers because remember he's got to make sure oh yeah yeah I totally did that part but
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I just didn't do the one big thing right um but he said and he said he had made things seem much worse than they truly
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were just to get Perry Parker to act faster okay which they do believe is the truth is probably true but in reality he
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said he made it a point of making sure Marian was always safe she promised not to make any noise he said and he said so
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I didn't tie her down and we drove around all afternoon and went to a show that night at the Rialto Theater in
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Alhambra really yeah they don't know if that's true okay according to hman it was Andrew Kramer who killed Maran he
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said once they returned from the movies Kramer supposedly took Maran while Hickman placed that call to the Parker
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house because remember he's setting it up so that all the things make sense yep that he's involved in he did the calls
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one thing we can't proof but not the murder yeah so he said he made the call to the Parker House he went to send the
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telegrams and Kramer took Marion and he said when Hickman next saw Kramer at the
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Belleview arms on the 17th Kramer was carrying a suitcase and quote opened it up to reveal Marian's decapitated body
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okay Kramer told Hickman the girl had been crying too much and he decided to stop her permanently and said that the
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police had become too suspicious anyways and too much a part of this so they were
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going to abandon the plans and move on anyway okay and Hickman said I am terribly sorry she was killed because I
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sure liked her and then he started to cry strange now that night a California grand jury convened at 7:20 p.m. and
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within an hour Superior judge Hardy issued an extradition order and a warrant for Hickman's arrest Chief Klein
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and several other leads on the case were immediately sent to Oregon to pick him up uh He was ordered to be held at a Los
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Angeles jail cell without bail pending his trial and in the meantime reporters raced to Kansas City to get a statement
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from his family and friends um they were all stunned to learn of his arrest his mother Eva told reporters this is all so
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muddled I've been so puzzled over it they are hounding my boy to death just because they have a
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clue I think they have a couple clues also this is a clue and a murder ma'am well that's I'm like just because they
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have a clue that your child murdered some other child and she then broke down into sobs
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and yelled my God my God they'll kill him they'll kill him they won't even give him a chance to say anything for
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himself which you feel for her like that like holy [ __ ] yeah you know what I mean
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like that you're like oh my God I can't even imagine that being no told to you that this giant thing that everyone's
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been following of this child who was mutilated after being kidnapped and murdered your child did that yeah no
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although they were deeply skeptical of his story investigators in Los Angeles you know set out to do their due
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diligence and they went searching for Andrew Kramer and June Dunning yeah quickly learned that well maybe they
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were real people perhaps they the people who kind of matched the who they were were definitely not murderous
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accomplices described by hi Hickman I figured as much Oliver Andrew Kramer who went by his middle name H had been an
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acquaintance of Hickman in Los Angeles but he had been in prison since August 1927 and so he definitely couldn't be an
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accomplice in kidnapping and murder yep no also Kramer did at once have a at one
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point have a girlfriend with the last name Dunning but investigators learned that June Dunning was that woman's
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sister oh okay uh coincidentally in their pursuit of this the supposed accomplices
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investigators located a second man named Frank Andrew Kramer who also had a girlfriend named Dunning and this was
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just coincidence yeah but her first name was Mabel and she had died nine months earlier okay even more coincidentally
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Frank Andrew Dunning had also been in jail since August so he too would not be able to have helped Hickman that's crazy
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very weird coincidences when he was informed by a member of the press that his supposed accomplices had been in
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jail since August yeah and you know some of them did not know him or exist Hickman laughed and said when I get to
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Los Angeles I want to see Kramer and would like to see the girl too what and then he went on to
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speculate that Andrew Kramer with whom he'd been operating with could have used the name of a man in jail saying that is
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strange it can't be okay yeah Chief kleene however definitely openly refuted these claims he said the story of
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Hickman having an accomplice is an absolute absurdity and he said we previously checked out every angle of
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his asserted accomplice and have found the story completely false and completely weak yeah it sounds that way
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now if Edward Hickman didn't have accomplices then that would mean that he was solely responsible for every
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horrible thing that happened to Maran Parker but what everyone wanted to know was why why did he do it it seemed
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impossible that he would have kidnapped murdered and mutilated a child for $1,500 yeah and if not for his reason
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that he said most simply assume that he was not sane they were like he has to be
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insane in fact even before he left Oregon for Los Angeles Hickman himself had begun to openly question his own
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sanity uh in his holding cell in Pendleton organ he asked a guard and this is I he was clearly just trying to
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see how he should should act he said how does a fellow act when he's crazy tell me this man's didn't answer no that same
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guard would later tell a reporter that Hickman seemed proud of what he did and regarded his death notes quote unquote
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that he sent to Perry Parker as his quote masterpieces wow yeah so he's just [ __ ] deranged just a piece of [ __ ]
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now when Hickman PRI while he was you know pondering his own sanity out loud for everyone to hear yeah uh
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psychiatrists in Oregon very public refuted the notion that he was insane according to psychiatrist Dr WD McNary
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who evaluated Hickman while he was being held in Oregon he said his mind seemed clear he told a straight coherent story
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and never was at a loss for words there was nothing about him to indicate Insanity that's even scarier now mcar
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acknowledged that he had only spent a short time with Hickman and so he said I can't make any definitive you know
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diagnosis yeah but in his opinion he said he didn't seem be suffering from any symptoms associated with any kind of
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deviancy that one would expect from a killer wow um he did say he says that he does not like girls that he is deeply
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religious and that he his ambition was to become a minister I mean there was that weird
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aspect of like him questioning um Perry's Christianity in there absolutely I don't know what that has to do with
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like anything else though now in hindsight it's pretty clear that Edward Hickman was enjoying the per formative
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and dramatic aspects of the chaos that he had created um you know the cryptic telegrams his public de declarations
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like he's really feeding into it yeah but what's less clear is like what is the truth and what isn't he's told
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several stories now and he's like switched them a few times so everybody's like what is the [ __ ] truth happened
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and why so while in custody in Oregon um he was he was still he did the same thing again he was pondering you know
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how do crazy people act essentially and then he said that he um he said out loud
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to another guard that he could avoid punishment by claiming that he was crazy uhhuh and then a short time later he all
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of a sudden claimed to be profoundly religious saying that he if because he was captured it must have been that God
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willed it and he said if God will it that it had to be okay so he's literally bouncing from like almost acting proud
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of what he's done claiming he did some of it but not the murder uh-huh then saying no I didn't do it and now he's
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saying I'm crazy and then he's saying NOP I'm actually super religious and God willed it yeah and it's like which where
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weing who are you like what's going on maybe that's part of the problem and obviously I mean people were like maybe
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it's possible he believes what he's saying here maybe but most people believed that we around him that the
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second he was arrested that he just started laying the groundwork for an insanity defense like it pretty clear
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cuz he wasn't as we'll see he doesn't do a good job okay he's a very smart man and really he's almost too smart to
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pretend to be insane okay because he's not he's coming off too clear and too coherent and too able to organize his
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thoughts so like his int his intelligence it makes it hard for him to appear disorganized and like scattered like you
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would assume like a psychiatrist would assume to see in someone who was suffering from delusions or something
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else um although California common law had always allowed for an accused person to claim Insanity what's now known as
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diminish capacity um as their defense for their actions before 1927 this year that that we're talking
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about a person I'm like I'm like it's not guys just a just a brief reminder we're not in the past yeah you did not
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get in a time machine don't worry um but before 1927 a person who'd been charged
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with a crime didn't have the option of pleading Not Guilty by reason of insanity huh so basically what it meant
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was by claiming Insanity as your defense you had to First confess to the crime you couldn't say I am not guilty because
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I am insane you had to say I'm guilty because insanee and I'm guilty like I'm guil because I'm insane ah and in 1927
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isn't that interesting uh Dave found that and I was like oh that's really interesting yeah I didn't know that I'm
00:21:06
surprised we haven't come across that before yeah in 1927 the legislature amended the California penal code to
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allow for The Plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity where the defendant is asserting that they can't be held
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criminally responsible for their actions because you are insane at the time that
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you were alleged to have committed the unlawful act okay um and if that is the plea then it's up
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to the judge or jury to determine whether the individual knew that their actions were illegal or immoral at the
00:21:37
time that they did him okay and if so they must then be held accountable for this if they knew that it was illegal or
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immoral makes sense the key distinction between the former penal code and this new amended one is that in the newer one
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they are pleading not guilty and if the judge or jury agrees then they effectively are acquitted
00:21:59
wow so it's like before that wasn't going to happen now if the judge and jury agree that you didn't know what you
00:22:05
were doing and you can't be held accountable you can be acquitted I wonder if there's anything in place for
00:22:12
you know you know getting care afterward yeah I'm 1927 who knows yeah maybe not then but hopefully now now Hickman at
00:22:22
this point had already confessed to kidnapping and now killing Mary and Parker okay he confessed to the whole
00:22:29
thing but if he entered a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity and a jury agreed there was a good chance that he
00:22:35
was just going to avoid punishment completely but first in order to do that he had the daunting tasks ahead of him
00:22:43
by he had to convince countless law enforcement professionals and doctors that he was truly insane okay good luck
00:22:51
so exactly not actually at the time of his arrest Hickman appeared to have some understanding that given the amended
00:22:58
laws now he could avoid responsibility for these crimes right so that tells you everything right there he knew yeah if
00:23:04
you have that understanding I'm I'm not going to bet money that you're insane or
00:23:08
or were at that time he went into this knowing if I convince everybody that I'm insane I can just go scot-free right but
00:23:15
what he didn't know was how to convince people that he was insane that's why he's asking people yeah uh his attempt
00:23:24
to convince Dr McNary that his crimes had been the result of his extreme um religiosity essentially religiosity
00:23:33
There Was You Know Divine command was given to him it it was completely unex unsuccessful yeah they didn't buy it um
00:23:40
in fact the doctor told a reporter I would not say that his aversion and this is interesting they really like um
00:23:48
because we're in the 20s of course they really harp on like how he didn't like girls oh okay but with this one he says
00:23:54
I would not say that his aversion to women is evidence of perversion nor do I think that his religious convictions are
00:24:00
so pronounced as to produce a hallucination that God will that he commit this act yeah so he's like I
00:24:07
don't think he has any kind of perversions like you know in that sense and I don't think he's so religious that
00:24:13
he's like hallucinating God telling him to do things it doesn't seem like that to me either but he's trying to convince
00:24:18
people he is now Hickman is realizing that he couldn't convince the guards that he was insane and in fact had asked
00:24:26
them how to act crazy quote unquote which like why'd you do that why that and he's a smart guy that's the worst
00:24:33
part about this and now Dr McNary is like no I don't buy it either like I don't buy the religious component I
00:24:40
don't buy any of it nice try he realized I need to up my game so when Chief Klein
00:24:45
and district attorney Keys arrived in Oregon to take Hickman back to Los Angeles where they were going to pursue
00:24:51
the death penalty and he knew Hickman started losing it according to one reporter he was quote writing on the
00:24:59
floor of the cell in the jail moaning I did not kill her I did not kill her then
00:25:04
he leaped at the bars and loudly threatened to dash his brains out against the steel
00:25:10
enclosure go for it the performance caused many people to speculate uh maybe he is
00:25:16
insane but Keys quickly dismissed that belief telling reporters of course he's not insane he's merely assuming that
00:25:23
pose I presume for mercy and so everybody around him was like [ __ ] off nice try while Hickman made his best
00:25:30
attempt at proving and Performing what he thought was Insanity at at the jail cell reporters detectives and
00:25:36
investigators from the DA's office started digging into his background because they were like all
00:25:42
right you want to claim this let's see let's see what we got back here so uh Hickman's parents had divorced when he
00:25:48
was 12 years old and his mom moved him and his siblings to Kansas City Missouri uh when he got there he soon became a
00:25:55
very popular student he was a star athlete a member of the newspaper the yearbook committee he was the one of the
00:26:02
strongest members of the debate team he was like well well-rounded that's so crazy but he had a dark side okay that
00:26:12
had started showing in little bits by the time his family had arrived in Missouri he started shoplifting around
00:26:19
age 11 uh and that soon escalated to petty theft and eventually armed robbery most people didn't know about the thefts
00:26:28
and robberies he hept it pretty Under Wraps but there were still signs of like something going on like he had a lot of
00:26:35
he had honestly a lot of success after arriving at his new school like we talked about star athlete debate team
00:26:41
yearbook all that [ __ ] um but his first defeat in the school's oratory competition was such a crushing blow to
00:26:50
his Eagle Eagle such a crush so upset it was such a crushing blow to his ego and like the way he handled it was
00:27:02
so not normal like he it was what he do he it was just he he couldn't handle it like he couldn't get over it it was
00:27:10
unhealthy the way he was hanging on to it and how angry he got about it like he it was immediate rage like it like he
00:27:18
couldn't take the defeat he could not take that he wasn't the best wow and it immediately went into like rage and and
00:27:26
so and everybody was like okay is going to get over this but he didn't like he brooded on it for like a long time held
00:27:32
on to it like it and this is just like him losing a competition at school right and they said and soon there was
00:27:40
noticeable changes in him and they were definitely for the worse the older he got the more suen more disinterested he
00:27:47
became he didn't really Express empathy or care for others very well okay and he
00:27:53
showed almost no interest or enthusiasm for work and often quit jobs not long after starting huh and these negative
00:28:00
traits became the norm once he met wellby hunt and they started on their criminal career together yeah in their
00:28:07
robbery spree during 1926 to 1927 Hickman quickly lost any reluctance to use a gun he was like sure let's go uh
00:28:17
there was a robbery in Los Angeles where he shot and killed a pharmacist and badly wounded an LAPD officer yeah uh
00:28:25
that was the one we talked about before he actually killed the farm phis wow um there were other incidents where he was
00:28:31
actually suspected of murder in other situations but was never charged during a 1927 gas station robbery in
00:28:39
Pennsylvania all the way across the country a man matching his description shot and killed the cashier Jesus
00:28:46
investigators also learned a lot from wellby hunt who told him on a um on one occasion while the two of them were
00:28:53
staying with his family in alhamra Hickman told him that quote it was his wish to get someone and chop them up in
00:29:01
little pieces and throw them along the highway oh yeah okay yeah it's horrifying that
00:29:10
that's kind of what happened like to to a degree literally and so investigators were looking at this and saying huh he
00:29:18
is getting increasingly more violent that is a violent statement to make like it's not looking like insanity it's
00:29:26
looking like he's an angry and violent man yeah following his arrival in the LA uh
00:29:32
Hickman underwent a ton of psychological tests from a number of doctors and all of them felt he exhibited sanity in his
00:29:39
response to their questions about the murder and dismemberment of Marian Parker wow so they think he's completely
00:29:45
samean that's so scary also they all noted that he was very clearly intelligent and he had an advanced
00:29:53
communication uh skill set um in in fact he seemed Adept at avoiding any questions that might incriminate him or
00:30:01
reveal criminality he was actually pretty good at that although Hickman likely thought he was in control of the
00:30:07
situation throughout these interviews because that's the kind of person he is it was really his cunning and
00:30:14
clear-headedness during all of this that undermined his claims of insanity and just kind of it didn't help like the
00:30:22
more like he thought he was like working around [ __ ] and being really cunning and
00:30:26
like figuring it all out they were like yeah we see you doing that and that's not someone who's insane someone who's
00:30:32
sitting here knowing what to pull and when to pull like you know it's like you're you're so smart dumb some people
00:30:41
really are ass your Dart uh so it was during this time that Hickman began to make up
00:30:50
a story that he would use in his defense in court it was the story that he would
00:30:55
really hang on to at least through Court when directly by one of the psychiatrists whether he believed he was
00:31:01
insane Hickman responded I don't think I'm insane it was claimed for me and he went on to explain in writing
00:31:09
he said the murder of Marian Parker and the horrible terrible simply awful mutilation of Marian Parker's helpless
00:31:15
body a separate Deed from the kidnapping of Marian Parker a distinct crime done in Blood by my own hands on the morning
00:31:22
of December 17th 1927 in the bathtub in apartment number 315 at at the Belleview
00:31:28
Arms apartment of Los Angeles California was not mean by me Edward Hickman but through me under the guidance and
00:31:36
protection of and as a duty to this great Providence for the great work which it has been calling me since the
00:31:43
age of 12 to perform for the Safety and Security of Human Rights and Liberties in the United States of
00:31:50
America so he's trying to come off cray cray apparently so that I don't know if that's that's weird and I don't know
00:32:00
what he's really saying there so luckily they they also felt that way at first they were like we need to clarify this a
00:32:07
little bit um they did eventually figure out what he was trying to say but what the defense his defense was that he
00:32:13
kidnapped murdered and mutilated Mar and Parker because a God that he referred to
00:32:18
as Providence had commanded him to do that okay that's what that was saying all right that yeah sure a very
00:32:26
long-winded way of saying that on January 3rd 1928 Hickman appeared in California Supreme Court with his
00:32:33
attorney Jerome Walsh where as expected he entered a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity and for the first
00:32:41
time since his arrest he seemed to be taking it seriously finally cuz before this he seemed like he was just going to
00:32:46
dance all around and get out of this through his own cunning now he kind of felt like he he was like I don't know if
00:32:52
it's working yeah he's like doesn't look like it's working on my on my behalf he
00:32:56
was just staring the entire entire time at the floor the only time he spoke was when the judge asked if he understood
00:33:02
that his plea constituted an admission of guilt and he said yes yeah um a trial date was set for January 25th and the
00:33:10
judge hoping to expedite the trial exercised his right to examine the jury members himself rather than go through
00:33:16
the whole jury selection process that would definitely delay the trial because there would be so many objections by the
00:33:23
defense yeah the judge's decision to examine the jurors the respective jurors on his own it was probably good because
00:33:30
after a month of dense news coverage there was no one in California who hadn't formed a pretty strong opinion of
00:33:37
this case but that wasn't the only thing working against the defense Hickman had
00:33:43
now changed crucial parts of his story multiple times which meant his credibility was just sh yeah it was just
00:33:50
[ __ ] when he was arrested he claimed he had participated in the kidnapping as a
00:33:55
means of getting money for college but he was emphatic that it was his accomplice Andrew Kramer who had
00:34:02
murdered Marian Parker right once the existence of the accomplices had been disproven he said oh yeah just kidding
00:34:09
and changed his story and now claimed that he was insane and had committed the kidnapping and murder himself and the
00:34:15
mutilation all by himself but at the behest of providence of some God he called Providence okay so finally it
00:34:24
seemed that it was like it was really his own hubris that seemed to be working against him because in his attempts like
00:34:32
I said to manipulate all the doctors and law enforcement professionals which he was like ah I've got this Hickman had
00:34:38
just undermined his own claims of Insanity by being entirely coherent and having no disordered thinking at all in
00:34:47
fact nearly every Doctor Who evaluated him said Not only was he incredibly intelligent but he didn't associate any
00:34:55
symptoms of psychotic thinking he said like he wasn't even good at faking it he wasn't he didn't even seem stressed like
00:35:02
he was just totally coherent and fine it's like dude if Providence is asking all these things of you you might be a
00:35:07
little stressed you might be under a little bit of you know a little bit of stress yeah now the trial began January
00:35:15
25th 1928 at the Hall of Justice in downtown Los Angeles which I was like wow what a name the Hall of Justice
00:35:23
Justice sounds like something in a superhero movie it does it really does um but there was like a massive very
00:35:31
unruly and very angry mob I believe it just camped out and the trial was immediately halted when in response to a
00:35:39
motion filed by the defense judge Carlos Hardy agreed to step down due to what the defense claimed was his bias and
00:35:46
Prejudice the case was reassigned to judge JJ truko and the defense immediately objected to him as well but
00:35:54
he refused to step down yeah and instead began jury elction in the case also find
00:35:59
a [ __ ] person that's not going to have any bias in this case you murdered a 12-year-old dismembered her and so her
00:36:05
open like shut the [ __ ] up and judge Hardy was right to take on the you know the the job of going through the
00:36:14
prospective jurors because the jury selection took nearly a week just to get the first figur out wow um the case
00:36:22
finally began on February 2nd like actually began since Hickman had already conf confess to the kidnapping and
00:36:28
murder at this point the stated purpose of the trial was really just to determine his sanity and pass the
00:36:34
sentence before reading the indictment judge tabuco reminded the jury of the standard of accountability and declared
00:36:41
their purpose as this had the party sufficient mental capacity to appreciate the character and quality of the ACT did
00:36:49
he know and understand that it was a violation of the rights of another and in itself wrong if he had the capacity
00:36:54
to appreciate the character and comprehend the possible or probable consequences of his act he is
00:37:01
responsible to the law for the ACT thus committed and is to be judged accordingly now the prosecutor d da um
00:37:09
ASA keys I think it's ASA ASA okay yeah I would say ASA uh he clearly articulated the state's theory that it
00:37:16
was Vengeance that motivated Hickman to kill not mental illness agree they actually brought out the uh which nobody
00:37:25
knew up until this point that Perry Parker was was one of the people who testified against him at the hearing
00:37:30
over his Forge checks oh [ __ ] and as a result they theorized that he devised this horrific scheme to get back at the
00:37:38
bank and Parker was just one of those that was caught up in it by kidnapping his daughter and killing her also the
00:37:46
plan had never truly been about money at all in fact by the time Hickman called to arrange for the second exchange Maran
00:37:52
was already dead right so they were like I think it was mostly Revenge he's a piece of [ __ ]
00:37:58
wow now the first witness called to testify was detective Lieutenant Richard Lucas who was among the detectives sent
00:38:04
to Oregon to transport Hickman back to LA Lucas said that among other things Hickman had been particularly interested
00:38:11
in whether the detective thought he would qualify for the insanity defense imagine that he said he told me that he
00:38:17
would throw a fit for the judge and asked me what I thought of the fit he had thrown in the Pendleton jail there
00:38:23
it is yeah Marian's teacher Mary Holtz was also called to testify but she had become so emotionally and physically
00:38:31
fragile at this time that she actually needed her husband's assistance to even reach the witness stand oh wow so when I
00:38:39
I I meant it when I said she shouldered the weight of what had happened um she told the story of the day Marian was
00:38:47
abducted and told the jury oh I can think of many things I could have done now I never would have let Maran go but
00:38:53
for the apparent sincerity and disarming manner of this man wow um as with the doctors and other experts that followed
00:39:00
her testimony only demonstrated more that this guy yeah he was far from a raving lunatic that they're all trying
00:39:07
to make him yeah he's 19 years old and like I said I think in part one he was able to convince this woman in a
00:39:14
position of you know like Authority that he he was fine to go take this girl and
00:39:20
they and it only proed further that he had been very lucid and very calculating and that this plan was meticulously done
00:39:27
and performed right um the day also included graphic crime scene photos including photos of maran's body oh wow
00:39:35
which caused one of the female jurors to collapse and they had to recess um acting on behalf of Hickman
00:39:41
was Jerome Walsh like we said who offered into evidence a handwritten confession that was done by Hickman
00:39:48
during his transport from Oregon okay they read it alowed in court and uh it said I wish to explain in full the
00:39:55
motives which prompted me to commit the crime um he insisted the murder was in no way
00:40:00
an act of Vengeance and he said one the motives were one fear of detection by the police that literally is ding ding
00:40:09
ding insane uh in beliefs that to kill and dissect the body I would be able to evade suspicion and arrest sane I had
00:40:17
warned PM Parker to keep the case secret and private but this this he was not reasonably able to do so that the great
00:40:24
publicity and search which followed caused me to use what I considered the greatest precaution in protecting myself
00:40:31
two Maran had a strong confidence in me for her own safety and I considered her own wish to return to her father
00:40:39
Saturday morning too deeply however my desire to secure the money in return to college were even greater I knew that if
00:40:46
I refus to take her back Saturday morning she might distrust me enough to give me some sign which would cause my
00:40:52
Discovery three for several years I had a peculiar complex I had an uncontrollable desire to commit a great
00:41:00
crime I believe that it borders on the Edge of Insanity and that it comes off as a weird relief from seriousness and
00:41:06
deep thought and found a means of expressing itself in the Parker case Okay literally all three of those sane
00:41:14
sane sane sane are giant booming green flags of Sanity right Europe this entire thing you had everything mapped out
00:41:24
Jerome Walsh which I'm like what were you thinking he entered the handwritten confession to try to like prove his
00:41:33
insanity but it just did the exact opposite each of these motives clearly indicates that he knew he was legally
00:41:40
and morally doing something wrong and that he'd only done it to not be detected to not be caught and also the
00:41:47
document reintroduces the previously abandoned story about wanting the money to return to school while only making a
00:41:54
very vague illusion to the you know profound religiosity that led him to commit the murder yeah the confession
00:42:00
was further undermined by at least one of the evaluating psychiatrists who told the press that in his discussions with
00:42:07
Hickman he had rejected the confession entirely so it's like none of it makes sense none of it like they're not
00:42:15
helping themselves they're looking more like they need to like be seen by a doctor
00:42:21
than anything else it's like what's going on like you're not making this at all a coherent trial not at all
00:42:27
and so Jerome Walsh in his client's defense called several witnesses to try to establish a long history of
00:42:34
instability Hickman's father Thomas Hickman explained that his ex-wife Eva had always been Melancholy and had a
00:42:42
difficult time when she was pregnant with Edward pregnancy is pretty hard yeah she
00:42:48
said had a difficult time when she was pregnant Nam one [ __ ] person probably even harder yeah um he told the jury
00:42:54
there was there was part of the time that she did not know any she always imagined that there was something badly
00:42:59
wrong with her okay and it's okay and so Walsh's try he also cited his history of
00:43:07
criminality and unusual behavior not being able to get over supposed losses and he was trying to establish that
00:43:14
Heckman had been raised in an unstable and overly religious household okay um because apparently he had a very
00:43:20
religious grandfather and he claimed that the influence was wild um but at best the testimony and depositions from
00:43:28
previous classmates just made him seem uh very intelligent and maybe a little quirky I was going to say like
00:43:36
intelligent to a fault among the least helpful Witnesses called by the defense was Dr skoo skoo skoo one of the
00:43:43
psychiatrists who evaluated Edward following his arrest um I'm sorry I keep referring to him as like Edward and
00:43:49
William his name is William Edward but he goes by he goes by both yeah usually I'll just call him Hickman uh reading
00:43:55
from a transcript of an interview skoo conducted with Hickman um sko's deposition was probably intended to
00:44:04
validate the you know that Hickman believed in this Providence God quote unquote but the back and forth between
00:44:11
Hickman and skoo was probably more confusing for the jury than it did to help the case at all okay because before
00:44:18
leaving the stand scoo concluded that Hickman's visions of Providence stemmed from a grandiose delusion that was
00:44:24
common in paranoid schizophrenics so now he's saying that he's a paranoid schizophrenic that's a big leap but
00:44:31
before that he had so confused the jury and made no sense and connected nothing and then was just like he's probably a
00:44:39
paranoid schizophrenic see you later guys and just like Let The Stand andat guys so the jury was like I don't even
00:44:45
know what you just said like that makes no sense to us yeah what it's wild so also of note was the extent of time that
00:44:52
the defense and the various psychiatrists spent on Hickman's sexuality and this is strange because according to
00:44:59
the coroner maran's body showed no evidence of sexual assault nor had anyone claimed that Hickman or anyone
00:45:06
else had sexually assaulted her at any time but during the trial a considerable and very uncomfortable amount of time
00:45:14
was devoted to Hickman's sexual interests his masturbatory habits his sexual experiences with women weird she
00:45:24
wasn't sexually assaulted well I was wondering why it even like at one point it was like it doesn't
00:45:29
appear he even likes girls I'm like it's why does that matter right now he didn't
00:45:33
assault her in that way so it's like why are we talking about that well it's just
00:45:37
like in the Heavenly Creatures episode it made me think of that yeah where it's just like it's not a sexually motivated
00:45:43
crime so yeah according to one of his Kansas City school friends Hickman quote had a number of sweethearts while in
00:45:50
school but he never ran around with girls and they're all like reporting this in like the New York Times and [ __ ]
00:45:55
and it's like that's also conf that's conflicting itself he had a number of sweethearts but he didn't go run around
00:46:02
with them like but then how what where did he go with them and we sit here and we're like to us this is wild and just
00:46:08
like what like very confusing but at this point in history mental illness particularly when it resulted in crimes
00:46:16
against children was often conflated with sexual deviant so many Americans including medical professionals at this
00:46:24
time would assume that there had to be a sexual component of Hickman's psychosis
00:46:28
here huh so they would like basically think they had to shoehorn this in cuz it's just to it has to go hand in hand
00:46:36
you don't kill a child unless there's a sexual component to it which I'm like sh what is is the component in the
00:46:44
room with us like what what are we talking about here especially when it's like no the corner sing there wasn't
00:46:50
that so like why are we shoehorning it in it's strange but again it's of the time very much so yeah now the hearing
00:46:57
came to a concl and that probably also sorry like cut myself off that probably also didn't help to stop the jury from
00:47:05
being so [ __ ] confused by all this yeah cuz they're like this doesn't really have a place here so why are we
00:47:12
even talking about it the defense like from what it looks like the prosecution has has kind of like given
00:47:19
out a very coherent pretty straightforward case this seems to be Revenge Hey look has a history of crimes
00:47:28
and violence y we have people here who say he actually fantasized and said he has a dream of cutting someone up and
00:47:35
throwing their body parts along the highway and by his own Omission he wanted to to uh do like a great crime
00:47:41
yeah like carry out a great crime and it's like and he clearly has some violent tendencies like looks like it
00:47:46
just he wanted he said himself he wanted the money so it all kind of adds up right here it is and then the defense is
00:47:53
like oh no we got it and then the defense makes like 40,000 different claims that all
00:47:59
contradict each other and are confusing as hell of like is he like does he have religious mania does he not is he a
00:48:08
paranoid schizophrenic is he not do you think that was the goal though of the defense it confus the but I think it
00:48:16
backfired greatly on them cuz they're it's just not a coherent case that they've tried to prove here but I could
00:48:22
see I could very much see that being the go that's all they had I think other than they didn't have anything like they
00:48:29
had to just confuse the jury because other than that it's pretty black and white like I don't know the motive still
00:48:37
seems fuzzy because like who the [ __ ] does that as like Revenge who the [ __ ]
00:48:42
does that for money like people do crazy [ __ ] for money and revenge I think I think part of it is like at this time in
00:48:49
history too no one could ad could understand people just do these things he just did this yeah and that he's a
00:48:58
[ __ ] up monster and that there isn't a true motive behind it maybe there was little things like he was pissed that he
00:49:05
got fired from the bank and maybe he did want to but he just wanted to ruin someone's life and he also he just
00:49:11
wanted to take someone's life yeah take someone's life to ruin someone's life it's like and you even were saying I
00:49:16
like in the beginning how much he liked talking about it and everything I think he wanted that notoriety whether it be
00:49:23
good or bad exactly in the hearing came to a conclusion in mid-February with both sides giving very impassioned
00:49:29
closing statements um Walsh told the jury the defense said when mental disease distorted the boy's thinking
00:49:37
processes he became incapable of attaining his life's goal when Hickman hung that little dead body down over the
00:49:43
bathtub drain and cut the throat with a kitchen knife when he dressed what remained of her in her school clothes
00:49:49
when he rused her face applied lipstick to her to that little dead mouth God he was not mingering he was completely
00:49:58
mad now this is a graphic description obviously yeah and so Walsh's graphic description of the actions was supposed
00:50:08
to convey to the jury that in order for him to have committed this kind of heinous heinous act he had to be
00:50:15
profoundly delusional no sane person would do this but the prosecution was like no like I'm not letting that go
00:50:22
without a challenge so um Keys said in his closing argument a lot of people say they can't understand how Hickman could
00:50:29
have committed such a crime if he was in his right mind he is a criminal he is a
00:50:33
bad man he is a man without a soul without a conscience without a heart he is not an All-American boy he's an
00:50:39
American Criminal Who with the aid of your verdict the state of California will Purge from its borders boom and I
00:50:47
say keys keys for the win that was a good one yeah there now there had been many criminals throughout the state's
00:50:56
history and many of them had committed heinous acts like Hickman's um and as far as he was concerned they weren't
00:51:02
insane either he said they're just evil not everyone has like some kind of defect that we can label with a
00:51:10
diagnosis some people just people don't have a conscience and they don't have a heart and they don't have a soul they're
00:51:16
just [ __ ] damaged goods and this is one of these people and we got to get them off the [ __ ] Street a little
00:51:23
after 2:20 p.m. on February 14th Valentine's day judge truko dismissed the jury for deliberations but before he
00:51:31
did he reminded them of their purpose he said you are to determine what the condition of the defendant's Mind was at
00:51:37
the precise time of the commission of the acts charged in the indictment its condition before or afterward is only to
00:51:44
be considered by you for the purpose of throwing light upon its state of the commission of SED acts the jury
00:51:51
deliberated for 43 minutes before returning with their verdict Hickman was sane when he kidnapped and
00:51:59
killed Maran Parker and for that he was sentenced to death good after hearing the decision the judge addressed the
00:52:06
prisoner for the kidnapping he sentenced Hickman to the term provided by the law
00:52:12
and for the first-degree murder of Maran Parker the judge sentenced him to death
00:52:16
by hanging at San Quenton prison with a tentative date of April 27th 1928 and then said and may God have mercy on your
00:52:23
soul may he not may he not showed no emotion when he was handed over to the sheriff's deputies and taken out of the
00:52:30
courtroom when the crowd of nearly 2,000 Spectators outside heard the outcome a giant cheer Rose through the air that's
00:52:38
amazing now Jerome Walsh immediately filed a motion for a new trial try to do this again yeah for a
00:52:45
and a motion for an arrest of judgment they were both quickly denied following the denial the defense filed an appeal
00:52:52
with the California Supreme Court on Hickman's behalf arguing that when he was forced to plead and to go to trial
00:52:59
under the form of procedure now prescribed by the penal code of this state and the procedure to be followed
00:53:04
after the plea he was deprived of his constitutional right to a trial by jury now according to Hickman's lawyers their
00:53:11
client had confessed to participating in the kidnapping but always said he was innocent when it came to the murder not
00:53:17
always not always by entering a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity he was forced to plead guilty to both crimes
00:53:24
and they said that violated his rights the justices considered the argument But ultimately rejected their Appeal on the
00:53:31
grounds that the state's Constitution only guarantees that the citizens of the state shall have an opportunity to be
00:53:38
Tried by a jury by entering a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity he knew the two charges would be considered
00:53:45
together and that the hearing could result in him being cons uh sentenced to death there you go they were also
00:53:50
unwilling the justices were unwilling to consider an argument calling into question the newly passed law allowing
00:53:56
for such a ple a plea during this period a separate trial was held where Hickman
00:54:01
and WBY his friend there were tried for the murder of Ivy Toms during the robbery of the drugstore in February
00:54:09
1926 I was waiting to hear if something happened from that the jury deliberated briefly and then found them both guilty
00:54:15
good but at that point Hickman had already been sentenced to die so it was kind of a moot point but like glad to
00:54:21
have had it on the books yeah and WBY at least got had to pay for what he did exactly by the fall of 1928 Walsh had
00:54:27
exhausted every single appeal available for his client and Hickman's execution was scheduled for October
00:54:34
19th uh at this point uh like most he uh had embraced the Roman Catholic faith in
00:54:41
jail suddenly out of nowhere oh god um and he sent a letter to chief of police for Los Angeles on October 13th where he
00:54:49
confessed to additional crimes including five robberies and the theft of several
00:54:53
automobiles in the city between 1926 in 1927 what a standup guy according to Hickman the additional confessions were
00:55:01
quote unquote the Christian thing to do and he wanted to get right with God before he went to The
00:55:06
Gallows you kidnapped a 12-year-old held her captive for multiple days killed her after giving
00:55:15
her the hope that she was going to be reunited with her family again dismembered her body sewed her eyes open
00:55:21
and then put makeup on her put makeup on her sorry I can't forget that and then drove her to her father and threw her
00:55:26
out your passenger door and you're talking about the Christian thing to do [ __ ] off into the sun oh and then drove
00:55:32
a little ways away and threw her arms and legs into various places [ __ ] off I got to get right with God I'm like isn't
00:55:39
that kind of like cramming for the final exam like 3 minutes before the test yeah
00:55:43
I'm like if there is a God I don't think he wants I don't know about that I don't
00:55:47
know about that on the morning of October 19th a little after 10:00 a.m. he was led from his cell at San Quinton
00:55:54
and taken to the Gallows that had been resembled in the yard before a crowd of nearly 200 people oh wow they were still
00:56:00
doing crowds yeah and what's funny is for about a year you know the F the Press had labeled him the fox and he had
00:56:08
labeled himself the fox this diabolical genius and um and they had been talking about how cunning he was and blah blah
00:56:15
blah but a lot of people in the crowd were like wow he doesn't look like the Fox right now the fox um the young man
00:56:21
standing before them at The Gallows was not the raving monster or this cunning Fox that they Al about but a white-faced
00:56:28
boy of 20 and they mean white faced like terrified all the blood has rushed out of his face and he is about to pass out
00:56:35
and oh he does pass out cuz he's a little [ __ ] there it is now according to one reporter he seemed very young as
00:56:43
the hush of death silenced the assembly gazing up at the human being who was about to
00:56:49
die he trembled as he was positioned over the trap door and basically collapsed when the hood was placed over
00:56:55
his head like literally fainted then at 1010 a.m. The Noose was placed around his neck and the lever was pulled the
00:57:02
trap door opened and he was supposed to be sent to his death but according to the Press Hickman's collapse just before
00:57:09
the door opened broke somewhat the force of the fall at the end of the Rope his neck apparently failed to break and
00:57:16
Hickman strangled to death for nearly 10 minutes they witnessed as his body twitched and convulsed before it was fin
00:57:26
finally pronounced dead at 10:25 a.m. the Poetic Justice because if you recall she was strangled
00:57:36
yep yep thank you for bringing that back because I mean tell me Karma's not a thing and in fact during this whole
00:57:46
thing multiple Spectators fainted cuz it in a guard threw water on them to bring
00:57:52
them back up oh my goodness sounds like it was like so cha now after all everything everything now he's dead he's
00:58:01
gone a whole year had gone by with them reporting this like Round the Clock Hickman died without ever honestly
00:58:10
explaining why he kidnapped murdered and mutilated Maran Parker I don't know that
00:58:18
there was a recess I agree with you genuine black and white reason I don't think he had one
00:58:23
reason he wanted to and there was some reasons that he felt Justified it yeah in his own I agree sick mind and not
00:58:31
sick in that way but like sick like Twisted I agree and that is the horrifying tale with at least an ending
00:58:40
that has some justice to it of the kidnapping murder and mutilation of Maran Parker so sad it
00:58:49
is wow but and what a it's like the trial got so wiy yeah and he tried so hard watching him fight for that
00:58:58
Insanity defense while [ __ ] it up for himself at Eddie T he wanted to get back
00:59:03
out there on the streets and do what he he wanted to be able to do again was good at armed robberies and murder
00:59:08
exactly he would have done something again there's no doubt in my mind probably something worse if you're
00:59:13
capable of that he was only 19 my God yeah this guy's only 19 he was definitely going to be doing something
00:59:18
again sad that that it it took that to catch him yeah wow yeah that's one of the more up cases we've ever covered
00:59:27
yeah well with that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird bye bye
00:59:38
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