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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this right here folks is [Music] morbid it's more heyy we've been getting
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so Wy in the introductions lately we have we've been doing a lot of recordings yeah I think so we're just
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like got to make it new and fresh I know and I forgot even to tell you guys at the top of the cuz this is
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part two obviously of the Gideon family murders um I forgot to even tell them at
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the top of part one that it was a Tupa oh it's a Tupa yeah by the way if you're here for part two hey this is part two
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it's it's t i mean there a lot yeah there's a lot going on it's like Michaela says go to P two go to P two
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that was good that was good on both ends that was real good my favorite is when she does her eyeliner and she says nice
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and Shar that eyelin could cut a man I love it I love it I love it I love it makeup
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makeup Kaya I don't know I feel we're Wy so crazy it's been a silly day in this pod
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laboratory it has been a silly day a good day if you will um and people keep seeing doubles of me in my house yeah
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that's occurring so I I told this story like probably like a month or so ago now
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that I saw a double of you yeah but then Mikey admitted to us today that he also
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saw a double of me he seemed a double weeks ago he didn't even tell us he didn't even want scare us the man didn't
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even inform us he was he was scared that's scary what's what's going on with you that's what I'm wondering someone
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tell me I think it's cuz you're spooky that I liked that um reason it's like the X Files of it
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all that explanation worked for me yeah cuz Elena was like well why isn't anybody seeing tubles of John in the
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house and I said because he's not spooky he's not he's really not you on the other hand yeah spooky as
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[ __ ] so you know spooky as [ __ ] and I don't live here yeah I mean I spend more time
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here than I do at my own home but yeah I'm just surpr I want to know what it means what does it mean cuz I'm like why
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am i showing up Mikey said that it's because I say out loud a lot that I wish there was more of me to do the things
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that I need to get done maybe wish it I'm a manifesting queen maybe you manifested something um some kind of
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[ __ ] [ __ ] though something ominous cuz I don't love that any any thread that I
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found about like what doppelganger things are is like not good well damn I'm sorry to inform you it didn't I
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didn't like the feeling I didn't feel threatened like when I saw she who shall be named but I felt scared after the
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experience yeah I don't know maybe and I only saw her very quick I don't she didn't like me she didn't like and
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that's weird cuz you really likeed me heard yeah so you've heard made a career together and [ __ ] yeah it's true I mean
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I mean ask some people and they'll say different but uh I was like what I was like no you
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can't argue that no you can't argue that but yeah I don't know so I guess we're just going to ride this uh going to ride
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ride this train all the way and see what happens see who next sees a doble anger
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of me in my own house what if your [ __ ] kid see it though that would bump me out then I'd have something to
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say to her that's when me and her would come to blows oh my God what if it's like that
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episode of Buffy though where like he intended to split Buffy in half but he split Xander in half but what if
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somebody actually actually did split you in half and you have to fight to the death and only the weak the weaker one
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dies [ __ ] am I the weaker one or no I only saw her for a second she's ominous and she can appear
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and reappear so meend to believe but I have to I don't know I think I'm the stronger one I'm the one getting [ __ ]
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done over here she doesn't seem to be doing much so oh I would not say that out loud I mean she's me she's part of
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you yeah she's not you though well she needs to pull her weight around here is what I'm saying so I'm leaving I'm going
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I'm going elsewhere this weekend she needs to start pulling her weight maybe take some stuff off my hands that would
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be great don't say that oh God rip your now she's going to rip your fingerprints
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and [ __ ] I haven't even seen her I have and so is Michael Ash's face is like Terror cuz I
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don't [ __ ] with that kind of [ __ ] like I'll talk about that kind of stuff like
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I I enjoy like talking about like Paranormal and stuff and that kind of thing but I don't [ __ ] with it like I
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don't talk to it I don't uh-uh yeah I mean like hey she hasn't bothered me so that's I'm saying I'm trying to
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say that it's fine like you're not doing anything wrong it's cool you're just kind of I'm just want to figure out what
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you're all about there you go is really what it is I'm just trying to figure out
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where you came from okay you know let's move on before we get this whole dug any
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further we'll move on I'll maybe I should why don't I pull a tarot card yeah do it and see what do you have a
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deck maybe I could sound bow after everyone's like maybe you could just tell us the everyone's like it is part
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two where you just tell us I'm just going to pull one out at random yeah like put feel what feels right
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though hold on eny you made me double think it like close your eyes and feel the Vibes what' you get did you get
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death no what'd you get I [ __ ] hate that card I don't like it Mikey's going to [ __ ] himself
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when he doesn't have noise cancelling headphones on if you guys know anything about the
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tower just try to explain that to us in this situation pray for me I guess all right we got to get into this I'm
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[ __ ] terrified and I'm leaving after this get into this this gets Wy let's get into this you thought this
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discussion at the top was Wy part two is Wy it's real wly so in part one we got familiar with the dynamic of the Gideon
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family and unfortunately found out that two of the four of them Veronica Ronnie and her mother Mary had been murdered
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along with a border in their apartment Frank Burns the police were pretty stumped because
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there was no sign of for entry no one had alarmed the otherwise territorial dog Tui and every suspect or Person of
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Interest they had so far including the father of the family Joe Gideon whom they beat mercilessly yeah uh had not
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panned out but taking a closer look at Ronnie's diary and the man who she simply referred to as be eventually gave
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them the lead that they needed at the end of part one we found out that a possible suspect for the be mentioned
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was Bob Irwin who had actually been pretty obsessed with Ronnie's sister Ethel and was a previous border at their
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home not this home not the apartment that they lived in currently the one where they were killed but the bigger
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one now it's actually pretty unclear why no one had thought to mention Bob Irwin
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when the diary was discovered and investigators were seeking a man with a B initial but anyone with even the
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slightest familiarity with Bob Irwin probably would have thought he made a good suspect
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born in 1906 in Pasadena California Bob's life had been really really difficult from the start his father
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Benjamin Irwin was the founder of I [ __ ] you not fire baptized Holiness Church you didn't just put that into
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like a random generator online that came out fire baptized Holiness Church which
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was not a church no I I didn't I was like please tell me that is not real no it was a antical Christian cult
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operating out of Northern California Benjamin the dad eventually abandoned the family it was when Bob was still
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very young leaving him and his two brothers in the sole custody of their mother Mary who was equally fanatical
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and put her religion before literally everything else in her life including the care of her children oh yeah that's
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sad it's his story Bob story I will tell you right off the bat is very sad oh that's
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terrible but left to their own devices Bob and his brothers ran completely wild uh I think it's VI vidalin or vidalin
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and P Irwin they were Bob's older and younger brothers they quickly fell into a life just filled with a ton of
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criminal activity they would spend nearly the rest of their lives in and out of Reform schools jails and prisons
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and Bob too had his own run-ins with the law and spent a few years in a reform school but unlike his brothers he had a
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natural talent for art and sculpture ah which earned him some sympathy with adults I had a feeling mhm but
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unfortunately while he did indeed prove to be actually an immensely talented artist by the time he reached his late
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teens Bob was also beginning to show signs of very severe mental illness and delusional thinking ah in his late teens
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and early 20s his talent had actually earned him the admiration of several influential people in the artor and he
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actually earned apprenticeships with some pretty notable artists of the time but due to his paranoia and explosive
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anger Tendencies those opportunities almost always fell apart not long after they started like he just had these big
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out could handle it mhm now in 1932 he was sent to the Burke Foundation which was a voluntary psychiatric facility in
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White Plains New York and after 9 months at the facility he left the clinic claiming that he quote left to get away
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from a couple of female employees who began to make life miserable for him after he rebuffed their sexual
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demands but in truth a social worker later clarified that Bob had left the facility because he had gotten into
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quote so many violent quarrels with other patients that he feared his behavior would lead to Serious
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consequences ah a little different so Bob moved into Mary Gideon's boarding house on East 53rd Street in October of
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1932 so that's 5 years before the murders coincidentally also right around the time that Ronnie started her diary
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that the police had found in 193 but it was there that he met and quickly became enamored with Ethel Gideon in
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many ways Ethel reminded Bob of his last girlfriend Alice Ryan who he was still very obsessed with Once he'd settled in
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at The Boarding House Bob tried to resume his art but he found that his thoughts of Alice and preoccupation with
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sex dominated his mind day and night preventing him from producing any kind of work so I want to give you a little
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bit of a trigger warning for her self harm here finally after a week of torment and no productivity Bob decided
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to try to rid himself of these sexual preoccupations once and for all according to Bob on Wednesday October
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27th he went into the bathroom at the boarding house and put a rubber band around his penis and went for a walk
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around town in order to numb the area when he got back to the boarding house he then went into the bathroom and
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attempted to remove his penis with a Gillette razor uh he boy got about halfway there but
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obviously that was incredibly painful even having numbed the area so he was not able to finish but he managed to get
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himself to the from the house to the Belleview hospital with the rubber band actually kind of acting as a tourniquet
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to keep him from bleeding out uh he checked in under the name James Adamson and calmly asked the night and turn to
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finish the job oh boy the turn simply bandaged him up yep and told him to come back during
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the daytime when the surgeon would be on so Bob came back several hours later still insisting that they remove his
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penis completely but instead the surgeon applied antiseptic and sutured the very
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serious wound and then admitted Bob to the psychiatric ward where he remained for nearly 5 months and after that after
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his stint there he was transferred to Rockland State Hospital in Upstate New York oo
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that is rough yeah and that is very very sick yeah he this man very sick severely mentally ill and it's it's
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sad that like not much was able to be done about it to keep him in a place and from like to to keep him one from
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hurting himself cuz obviously he's inclined to do that and to keep him from hurting anyone else this man is not
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somebody who should have lived on his own and like been on the streets unfortunately absolutely not like there
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was there needed to be some serious help happening here and the system obviously
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I mean it's the 30s like there's not yeah not a lot in the way of mental health not at all like anything so I
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mean we were just talking about you know the Marian Parker case which was in the
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20s but it's like we're not far off from there and they were still treating it in
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a very different way than they treat it now and it's interesting actually cuz like when we get to the trial part of
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this it's we were like talking about it in the Maran Parker case and how William
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uh William Edward Hickman how he was like very clearly trying yeah he was making a valiant effort to see ins yeah
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to act like he was in this case he's not trying he just is like this is very clear this is coming from a
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very genuine place of not sayane so we're literally like taking trial that we just discussed and turning it on his
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head how it would go if he really was yeah it's interesting that we end up doing these back to back cuz we don't
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usually tell each other about our cases until they happen yeah but anyway during
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his time at Rockland uh Rockland excuse me Bob proved an unruly patient he made several Escape attempts including one
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incident when he made it all the way to downtown Manhattan holy [ __ ] to the apartment of his previous psychiatrist
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from Belleview oh [ __ ] that luckily he was able to be apprehended and return to
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Rockland before anything happened Jesus at Rockland it that was the place where he received his first official diagnosis
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of heop frenia it was a subtype of schizophrenia which the psychiatrist at the time described as being
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characterized quote by foolish mannerisms senseless laughter delusions and regressive Behavior this diagnosis
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actually no longer appears in the diagnos was G to say yeah not it's not in the DSM the diagnostic statistical
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Manual of mental disorders now we would just classify it as simple schizophrenia
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yeah I was going to say because I've never heard of that yeah it's interesting it's dated but the symptoms
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of delusional and disordered thinking and distorted reality among others are still acknowledged in the schizophrenia
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diagnosis so now he would just be called schic or treated as such so after a few
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years of bouncing around from one boarding house to another Bob reappeared at the door of Mary Gideon's boarding
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house in the early summer of 1934 just a few months after e Ethel's marriage to her first husband was anol because
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remember she had a teen marriage of her own yeah that was like a thing yeah I think it was a thing to get out of the
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house yeah cuz I think the house was very dysfunctional yeah for sure so now that he was once again in Ethel's
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presence Bob felt particularly inspired actually because she was like I said she
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was beautiful and he began sculpting again he was devoted to Ethel from the moment that he returned to the house but
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while she liked the attention and the Adoration that she re received from him she was never actually willing to commit
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to a relationship with him for her it was just kind of like a fun thing yeah just like flirting was he she found him
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to be like an attractive man a lot of people actually did yeah so she's just like you know what yeah we're just
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having a flirtation it's a fun thing but she never saw it yeah seriously so and actually by that time she had already
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started dating Joe cner who she ended up marrying and who was obviously far more
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stable than Bob and somebody that she could see a future with yeah but despite her intention to marry Joe
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she still indulged Bob flirting with him and actually allowing him to sculpt her
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yeah so it was while he was living with The Gideons that Bob began experiencing delusional thinking and started
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believing strongly in what he called visualization which he believed was the ability to manifest things purely by
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mental power and focus okay he believed that through the process of visual visualization he could obtain everything
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he wanted for himself and he became very frustrated when things didn't appear to
00:17:01
be going his way which I imagine happened a lot yes absolutely he was absolutely desperate to be with Ethel
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but no matter what he did or how he tried to prove his love for her she was resistant because she loved Joe yeah
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after several months in the house Mary the mother who had always been actually pretty fond of Bob took him aside and
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very gently expressed her concerns that for the sake of her daughter's future she was quote anxious that Ethel have
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nothing to do with Bob oo which I think she put it gentler than that but that was essentially the message what he took
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from it and she said she wanted her daughter to marry a wealthy man and not have to struggle like she had in her own
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marriage so I think she was saying to Bob like I want something better for Ethel and also like I want you to move
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on yeah she liked she's not going to marry you she's not going to be with you like you need to move on like yeah and
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it sounds like she went about it in like a the kindest way that she could she possibly could exactly you know but
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undeterred by Mary's words Bob continued to pursue Ethel romantically and a few months later while the two were out for
00:18:07
a walk along the pier he insisted that they should get married oh boy now at that point having grown tired of Bob's
00:18:13
Relentless advances and honestly his increasingly bizarre talk of Vis visualization I can never say that and
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other strange beliefs Ethel finally explained that while she hoped they could remain friends she had accepted
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Joe kar's proposal and they were going to get married in the coming months Bob later told a reporter I just went crazy
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in the weeks that followed he spiraled into depression and heavily contemplated suicide as he bounced from one boarding
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house to another and then he was dealt another serious blow in October when after putting up with his poor attitude
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and sullenness for months his boss let him go from the production factory he was working at in response Bob grabbed a
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nearby meat cleaver and threatened to quote split his boss's head right down the middle holy [ __ ] so now out of work
00:19:02
and desperate Bob actually returned to Rockland hospital where he voluntarily committed himself for treatment which
00:19:09
that's interesting it is interesting that he does like obviously know enough he recognizes it seems like he has these
00:19:15
periods where he's good where he's like Lucid Lucid exactly and like realizes like oh no I need to get some kind of
00:19:21
help and he goes to get the help and it's like I wish that they would have just recognized that he needed to stay
00:19:27
there yeah cuz it's like like I think then it was just like before medication before before any of the advances of
00:19:35
understanding what these things are how you can deal with them tools that you can use to get through these things
00:19:42
psychiatrists helping you like be like okay when you feel this way this is what I want you to do or this is what I want
00:19:47
you to try or visualize this like to his visualization thing but like make it more of a tool that he can use to like
00:19:55
get himself out of these really intense emotional situations yeah and it's like they just didn't have that and just
00:20:01
offer him a safe space to stay while he is going through it is going through all
00:20:05
that exactly so based on everything that they learned about him detectives became
00:20:10
convinced that Bob Irwin was most definitely their suspect sounds like it yes but the only problem was they had no
00:20:16
idea where he was a police spokesperson told reporters on April 5th we've been looking for him since the murders we
00:20:22
think he's the man I hope he hasn't committed suicide in response to a Citywide alert Bob's former landlord who
00:20:29
had actually been renting him a room directly across the street from the police precinct contacted police but by
00:20:37
the time they arrived at The Boarding House Bob had packed his belongings and fled oh damn and the landl the land lady
00:20:43
had no idea where he had gone but she did remember that Bob had two suitcases with him and one of them had a distinct
00:20:50
looking strap wrapped around it with a large Buckle to keep it closed so that was a pretty key detail to remember a
00:20:57
good detail so the news about the man hunt for Bob Irwin came as a shock to very few people who knew him well but
00:21:03
among those who found it hard to believe was actually Ethel Gideon on April 6 she
00:21:08
told reporters I cannot believe Irwin is the man who killed my mother and sister
00:21:12
while she provided investigators with everything she knew about Bob more than 18,000 officers mobilized across the
00:21:19
city in search of the suspected killer at Rockland Hospital detectives learned that Bob had actually been discharged
00:21:26
the previous October and since then had just been kind of bopping around to various boarding houses across the city
00:21:33
and during his time at Rockland his most recent time they informed investigators
00:21:38
that his religious delusions had worsened and he'd actually started studying religion like almost
00:21:44
exclusively completely casting aside his sculpting and his art ooh yeah and it's
00:21:49
like that's the only outlet that man has and where he was yeah and where he was raised in such a a place where like
00:21:58
religion was not a a place of comfort or a place of Solace or something to believe in it was like probably a
00:22:04
punishment not a good place to be going yeah it wasn't great so on a hunch investigators went to Grand Central
00:22:11
Station and asked the baggage check attendant whether anyone had checked luggage resembling that which had been
00:22:16
described by Bob's landl as luck would have it somebody matching Bob's description actually had checked that
00:22:21
very bag they were looking for and that person had not been back to retrieve it in days so presented with the suitcase
00:22:28
help closed with the strap and the Buckle investigators searched its contents and found inside them that
00:22:34
small alarm clock that Ethel said was missing from her sister's dressing table at the apartment so this piece of
00:22:41
evidence only further confirmed their suspicion that Bob was the killer the hunt for Bob Irwin was the largest since
00:22:48
the hunt for the Lindberg kidnapper 5 years earlier wow but despite their best efforts it was not the NYPD who
00:22:56
ultimately found Irwin but a tip from a reader of True Detective magazine you could not write this you literally
00:23:04
couldn't you could not write this just as they had done before the editors of True Detective remained committed to
00:23:10
helping find Ronnie's killer because remember she worked for them she posed for the covers and yeah she was friends
00:23:15
with them yeah they got to know her they loved her so to that end they offered a
00:23:19
$1,000 um reward for information leading to an arrest today that would be 20 over
00:23:25
$21,000 wow it was huge and in late June of 1937 an employee at the I think it's
00:23:32
Statler hotel in Cleveland Ohio happened to be flipping through her copy of True
00:23:36
Detective on her break and she noticed a police photograph of Bob Irwin and she thought huh that actually looks a lot
00:23:43
like the new barback Bob Murray stop and this [ __ ] amused by the resemblance showed the photo to Bob and
00:23:52
from the look on his face she could tell that it was way more than a mere coincidence yeah so Bob fled the the
00:23:58
hotel that day why would you do that why would you show him and say like oh this
00:24:02
guy looks like you like that's a dumbass move I'm sorry so he fled the hotel and
00:24:08
by the time detectives made it there he was gone again awesome so by the summer of 1937 now Bob Irwin's photo was
00:24:15
plastered across Billboards magazines newspapers all around the country at this point and it was only a matter of
00:24:21
time before they caught up with him wanting to get ahead of the story Bob ended up placing a call to the Chicago
00:24:27
tribute with an offer he knew they would not be able to resist he told the operator I'm a friend of Robert Irwin
00:24:35
who is wanted in New York for the Gideon murders he wants to give himself up what
00:24:39
kind of deal can you make with him now after getting through this is him this is him this is actually him
00:24:46
just pretending to be a friend he's like I have a friend after getting through to
00:24:49
the right person he offered the paper a complete exclusive confession in exchange for $5,000 cash a white linen
00:24:58
suit and a Panama Hat stop given what they were being offered the Tribune jumped at the opportunity of course they
00:25:07
did and agreed to meet him at the office of managing editor John dehart where Bob
00:25:13
sat down and told his story the man who did it is sitting pretending to be a friend telling the story if this
00:25:21
doesn't tell you that oh at this point he wasn't even pretending to be a friend he was oh he no he's saying it's
00:25:26
actually him yeah it was the friend who called and said all this up but was like
00:25:30
I can get Bob to you so Bob sat down with them wow yeah I'm without I'm speechless
00:25:39
now at that time it was actually pretty common for the press to to pay criminals
00:25:44
for their exclusive rights to their stories or any kind of other information that they deemed valuable as news
00:25:49
reporters but this was the first time a newspaper had knowingly and deliberately
00:25:55
shielded a murderer from the law in order to get a story [ __ ] he murdered three people he came
00:26:03
in this place and said I'll tell you the story they were like yeah let's just let
00:26:07
him do that and not call the police like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you I'm so
00:26:12
surprised that they weren't charged with obstruction of justice truly I think this it got so Sensational and like it
00:26:18
got so beyond that that probably once he does eventually get convicted so once it
00:26:24
once it ended there they were like whatever but I'm like what the kind of precedent do that that's really [ __ ]
00:26:30
up now there's no [ __ ] way ever that that could happen again but this happened I'm shook by the and the fact
00:26:39
that his name uh cuz you you've been saying Bob so I forgot that his name is Robert and I think Steve Irwin's son is
00:26:47
named Robert and he's a lovely lovely guy he is lovely I follow that whole family very much of Steve Irwin and it's
00:26:55
B it's bumming me out so much to hear that name like in conjunction with like it's weird that we started this with
00:27:02
doppelgangers whoa that's weird little strange this is really just same name Robert Irwin the the Steve of Steve
00:27:10
Steve Irwin DNA is seems lovely oh yeah seems standup guy but the Chicago Tribune at the time not a standup
00:27:19
newspaper no so they were like yeah let's yeah sure because essentially they just wanted to secure the exclusive
00:27:26
rights to have advantage over the honestly is hilarious because uh spoil earlier it didn't end up working
00:27:32
out for them I can't imagine why now but they did get they they were the first to
00:27:37
technically get the story on the evening of June 26 1937 Bob Irwin sat down with
00:27:43
reporters and photographers from the tri the Tribune wearing a suit at the Morrison Hotel and just started his
00:27:50
story wow he told this is so bizarre it's not I've never heard of another case like this he told them that night I
00:27:57
said to myself I'm going up there and killing Ethel I never intended to get anybody but her I thought that after
00:28:03
killing Ethel then they would kill me in the chair but I didn't care wow he continued on that he had indeed been in
00:28:09
love with Ethel and that when she rejected him he became so obsessed that he was just not able to focus on
00:28:15
anything else and after several months of hospitalization he decided the only way to regain his Focus was to rid
00:28:21
himself of Ethel and that's why he was resolved to kill her but not wanting to Mar her beauty he said he decided to
00:28:29
stab her in the back of the neck with an ice pick from his apartment that is so chilling and it's
00:28:36
such disordered thinking I don't want to ruin her beauty but I want to end her life what the [ __ ] I feel like that just
00:28:44
goes to show you like that something was not clicking upstairs on the night of March 28th he
00:28:52
went to the apartment on East 50th Street and rang the bell having always liked Bob Mary happily let him into the
00:28:58
apartment oh Mary where she was prepping for Easter dinner the following day he told the reporter Mrs Gideon did not
00:29:04
want me to have anything to do with eel outside of that she was always very friendly to me they chatted pleasantly
00:29:10
in the kitchen for a short time Mary even introduced Bob to her newest border Frank Burns but eventually Bob started
00:29:17
becoming impatient and asking where Ethel would when Ethel would be home confused Mary explained that Ethel had
00:29:24
moved out of the house years earlier because she was now married to Joe but according to Harold uh I think it's
00:29:31
Shear yeah he we've done a couple of his books he uh I think you used his book for the the edgein case yes he wrote a a
00:29:39
book about this case called The Mad sculptor ah and according to him the last time Bob had visited the apartment
00:29:45
Ethel had actually been staying with her mother temporarily and quote Bob had gotten it into his head that she and Joe
00:29:51
cner were separated oh wow yeah so after a few hours Mary became impatient and somewhat bluntly explained that Ethel
00:29:59
wasn't going to show up and since it was getting late she wanted to go to bed but
00:30:03
undeterred Bob insisted he was going to stay until he saw Ethel which prompted Mary to yell get out of here or I'll
00:30:10
call the Englishman referring to Frank Burns who was now asleep in the Next Room oh no the threat caused Bob to
00:30:17
become completely irate and he rushed toward Mary he recalled at that moment I hid her with everything I had she fell
00:30:24
back on the floor with her legs back over her head I grabbed her by the neck she scratched my face like nobody's
00:30:29
business good good for her I know he said he then choked her for nearly 20 minutes until she was dead what and then
00:30:38
he simply sat back down at the kitchen table and continued on waiting for Ethel he said she was the one I felt I must
00:30:46
kill I simply had to finish what I planned and remember Frank Burns is asleep in the Next Room but he didn't
00:30:53
hear anything because he was deaf in one ear on yeah that and he was asleep on his good ear oh man as he waited it
00:31:00
occurred to Bob that Ronnie might return home before Ethel which presented a serious problem he told the interviewer
00:31:06
where she was beautiful and I hate to destroy Beauty what the [ __ ] he's an artist in that moment Bob was reminded
00:31:13
of something that he'd read recently about how a bar of soap wrapped in a towel could make an effect of blackjack
00:31:19
that he could use to stun Ronnie and nothing more so he went to the kitchen and grabbed the bar of soap from the
00:31:26
sink that's why that's soap that's why it was there which he wrapped in a dish towel and then returned to his hiding
00:31:32
place in the bedroom a little after 3:00 a.m. Bob heard Ronnie returning from her
00:31:37
night out which lined up perfectly with what Steven butter had told them and after saying goodbye to butter she
00:31:42
entered the apartment and went straight to the bathroom where she started her little night nightly routine removing
00:31:48
her makeup just getting ready for bed he said she stayed in there the longest time I thought she would never come out
00:31:55
but finally just before 4:00 a.m. Ronnie entered the bedroom and Bob swung the soap bar as hard as he could striking
00:32:01
her on the head he said it didn't have the slightest effect which like obviously obviously but in his mind that
00:32:08
was totally going to work so with with his Blackjack having crumbled to the floor and Ronnie having now seen his
00:32:14
face he grabbed her by the throat and started choking her demanding to know where Ethel was and she imagine she just
00:32:20
came home to her house yeah just in the middle of the night how many times does everybody else in the world do that this
00:32:26
is BTK behavior of like waiting in someone's closet until they come like until the middle of the night like
00:32:31
that's [ __ ] up now when Ronnie explained that her sister was at home with her husband Bob lost all control
00:32:38
and started strangling her he told the reporter I wanted to let Ronnie live if I could we were always Pals I suppose
00:32:45
she thought I was going to rape her she said please don't touch me I just had an
00:32:48
operation and the doctor said if I have intercourse I could die Bob estimated that he held on tightly around Ronnie's
00:32:55
throat for nearly two hours what the [ __ ] but he couldn't say for certain he said when you get in a mixup like that
00:33:04
you don't think about what you're doing and time means nothing I I'm like without words it's
00:33:13
beyond so once he had choked all the life out of her he ripped off her slip and left her body on the bed and then
00:33:20
stuffed Mary's body under the bed he never said why he did that yeah maybe just so I don't the only thing I think
00:33:28
of is she wouldn't be immediately found I guess but or I like why he ripped off her slip I mean Rony slip like why he
00:33:35
left her naked on the bed yeah I mean who knows but he was about to leave the room when he noticed the small this is
00:33:42
really interesting and just strange he was about to leave the room when he noticed the small green alarm clock
00:33:48
sitting on the dresser still and to him he said the glowing green clock resembled an eye that had been watching
00:33:54
him while he murdered both women so he grabbed it stuffed it into his pocket as he left the
00:34:00
room wow right I mean that tells you something he's not of s mind I mean this is absolutely [ __ ] horrific
00:34:10
absolutely this is brutal so Bob was about to leave the apartment and go back to his boarding house when he remembered
00:34:17
Frank Burns the Border had been in the apartment the entire time but like I said never woke up because of his
00:34:24
hearing so when Burns had come in several hours earlier Mary introduced Bob by name so Bob felt that if he left
00:34:31
Frank alive there was a good chance that he would be able to identify him so he crept into Frank Burns's room using the
00:34:38
ice pick that he intended to use to kill Ethel and stabbed Burns in the head but
00:34:43
doesn't that point to not wanting to be caught and to making pretty logical moves to make sure
00:34:52
that you are not identified that's the thing I think he I mean he's a d aged schizophrenic absolutely but I mean like
00:35:00
in this moment I'm like cuz cuz you can be a diagnosed schizophrenic commit a crime like this and they can still say
00:35:07
you're guilty because you were sane in the moment in the action of committing the crime yeah he's sane well just wait
00:35:14
that's sane Behavior you are not the only one that thinks that yeah I fully believe that so and we'll get to it cuz
00:35:22
you're not you're not alone there he said I struck him the first time in the temple so far as it would go the poor
00:35:27
fellow lay there twitching but did not bleed I had to hit him 11 times holy [ __ ] with all three occupants dead Bob
00:35:35
grabbed his coat and left the apartment a little after 6:00 a.m. he finished by telling his audience from the Tribune
00:35:41
I'm certainly sorry I killed all three of them there was only the one I was after and that was Ethel I don't know
00:35:46
whether it was hate or love that made me want to kill her if she had come in first I probably would have killed her
00:35:51
and nobody else wow imagine being Ethel here I can't imag there's so many layers to it of knowing
00:36:00
that if you had walked in you were the one that was getting this but also then to know that three people died in place
00:36:07
of you and two of them being your sister two of them being yeah like and by no fault of your own no but the survivor's
00:36:15
guilt you would already have Survivor guilt anyway like no matter who it was to do with you but then learning that
00:36:21
you're the intended victim like I yeah that would ruin me yeah but before the interview the reporter asked what Bob
00:36:29
was expecting to happen to him now that he had confessed and would be apprehended and he answered whatever's
00:36:35
coming to me I'll take wow so it wasn't until after the Evening Edition of the Harald and
00:36:41
examiner hit the news stands that investigators learned Bob had confessed to killing Ronnie Mary and Frank the
00:36:48
front page article had scooped the competition and been the first to report the news that's [ __ ] up the Chicago
00:36:56
Tribune literally just obstructed the [ __ ] out of Justice to get this interview to get that front page scoop
00:37:02
and they didn't even get it it ended up getting scooped by the competition somehow just like word of mouth I think
00:37:07
but detectives naturally thought it was them and not the Chicago Tribune who had
00:37:11
done the interview and it was only when they reached the offices of The Herald and examiner that they learned Bob was
00:37:16
still H up at the Morrison Hotel with the staff from the Tribune what the [ __ ]
00:37:22
Yep this is so bizarre so on June 28th 1937 Bob was transported back to New York after voluntarily waving
00:37:29
extradition and declaring his willingness to take responsibility for the Gideon murders according to the New
00:37:35
York Times Bob's Bob was juny giggling at times and without the slightest trace of remorse as he repeatedly confessed
00:37:42
the murders to the New York detectives who' been sent to retrieve him from Chicago once they arrived back in New
00:37:48
York Bob was taken to Police Headquarters and questioned until just before 3:00 a.m. a police spokesperson
00:37:54
told reporters he stated that he had made a statement to Lieutenant Owens and detective cmans confessing to the
00:38:00
murders in the plane and route from Chicago to New York and that that statement was true wow according to
00:38:06
investigators he was fully Cooperative from the moment that he was picked up in Chicago and actually even seemed eager
00:38:11
to get back to New York and face his penalty one reporter wrote he boasted to them that he was willing to plead guilty
00:38:18
to the murders and that he was not afraid of death in the electric chair okay buddy he doesn't even plead guilty so
00:38:25
I'm like what so this is all just [ __ ] so Bob appeared before the court of General Sessions on July 1st where his
00:38:31
lawyer Samuel libowitz entered a plea of not guilty according to the New York Times the courtroom was packed with
00:38:37
quote an admiring crowd of middle-aged women hoping to Glimpse Irwin get it together like what get it together just
00:38:45
like in part one and every other [ __ ] part we do of any case people are going to people people are going to people
00:38:52
like what is that like come on man you first of all you want to catch a glimpse of of a man who was intending to kill a
00:38:59
woman that he was romantically obsessed with and because she wasn't there he killed her mother's sister and a Bard
00:39:04
her at the house like here's the thing that like gets you going that's the problem it's like I understand being
00:39:09
curious and like being interested in the case and wanting to see who this guy is
00:39:13
that did this absolutely but they were like oh my God interested like that's wow it's like the girls that showed up
00:39:21
to see Ted Bundy and like please marry me and literally parted their hair the same way their hair because that's what
00:39:27
liked like what the [ __ ] Charlie Manson's girls it's it's such a [ __ ] weird pathology it's a
00:39:33
strange yeah weird but after entering his plea Bob was removed from the court and returned to his cell to await trial
00:39:41
which was tentatively scheduled for the fall in a statement to the Press Le libowitz said this is the most
00:39:47
interesting case I have ever had due to the social implications you cannot tell me how many more irwins are running
00:39:52
around loose I hope that Society will learning a lesson from the Irwin case make a more logical insane approach to
00:39:58
the problem dealing with the criminal insane which like for a defense attorney to say like yeah like he's wrong but I
00:40:05
think he's insane and the way that he said it like hopefully Society will figure their [ __ ] out yeah it's a very
00:40:13
this is a lesson for sure for the time I'm like wow mildly Progressive it's a pretty Progressive view that's the word
00:40:19
I was looking for now in early September before Bob's trial was to begin Samuel levowitz uh arranged a press conference
00:40:26
in which he promised to his client would be on hand to answer questions for the Press however when Bob was brought to
00:40:32
the interview room in the courthouse he was quote Wildey unshaved and unkempt and appeared to have no idea what was
00:40:38
going on once he settled in the chair beside levowitz Bob unprompted blurted out for two weeks they had doctors
00:40:44
staring and learing at me their eyes they bothered me I couldn't stand it they beat me from behind with black with
00:40:50
a blackjack six men with blackjacks I couldn't fight six men with blackjacks you're just talking nonsense
00:40:57
all right which maybe is because he's in a state yeah of whatever he deals with or maybe
00:41:06
ised yeah I mean it seems to me like he he's obviously clinically there's something wrong yes but I think the
00:41:15
thing that they're going to have to prove here is that he was sane at the time of the Mur the time of the murders
00:41:21
mhm so Bob said little more to the reporters before being returned to his cell but it was clear that to the
00:41:27
reporters that the entire press conference was part of the defense attorney's trial strategy whether it was
00:41:33
true or not it was yeah genuine or not it was strategic absolutely because it's like they can use it like no matter what
00:41:41
you know like they're just like okay this happened great like in front of some cameras and show everybody that
00:41:47
he's clearly not you know him he's not all with it right now it's going to sway public opinion no matter what of course
00:41:53
it is and according to the New York Times Mr leitz who is apparently laying the groundwork for a defense based on a
00:41:58
plea of insanity told reporters he thought Irwin was a dual personality libowitz himself told the reporters that
00:42:05
he had seen his client just one day earlier and he seemed calm and collected but then added you saw how he acted
00:42:11
today like a raving Maniac it's wild how they talked it really is you're like yikes yeah after
00:42:18
several months of delays Bob finally went before the court of General Sessions on March 24th 1938 because he
00:42:24
had already confessed the only issues being considered were quote the mental condition of the defendant Robert Irwin
00:42:30
at the time of the commission of each of the alleged crimes whether he is now capable of understanding the proceeding
00:42:35
and making his defense on the on the trial of the indictments yeah so essentially exactly what happened with
00:42:41
your trial yeah with your last episode but unlike a traditional trial in this case the jury was presented with
00:42:47
testimony taken from 20 sessions of the lunacy commission the lunacy commission that was a legit thing I've never heard
00:42:55
that the lunacy commission wow and transcripts from the 28 witness interviews as well as physical and
00:43:01
documentary evidence in support of his client's compromised mental state libowitz presented testimony from Dr
00:43:08
Leland hinsey assistant director of the New York psychiatric Institute and Dr Bernard Gluck I think it is the former
00:43:15
director of the Psychiatric clinic at singing both of whom had actually evaluated Bob in total both men spent
00:43:22
nearly 70 hours interviewing Bob so this was a dedicated process and during that time hiny said Bob's
00:43:29
Behavior would sometimes become frightening and erratic he said he would begin by excessive talking and would be
00:43:35
considerably upset when he was interrupted for some explanations on some point he had raised according to
00:43:40
hiny these interruptions often prompted Bob to quote stare at the examiner grit his teeth pound on the table viciously
00:43:47
with his fist and yell that he would not suffer any any interruptions that would
00:43:52
be terrifying even just writing it and like picturing it yeah was a terrifying experience I can't imagine being there
00:43:59
stare at the examiner and grit his teeth and yell and like pound his fit like that's a lot that's scary now one
00:44:06
subject which Bob would talk at length about was his spiritual beliefs Harold Sher wrote Irwin worked himself into a
00:44:14
pitch of near frenzied exaltation while discoursing on his current efforts to transform his body through the power of
00:44:20
electricity Bob told the psychiatrists there is no limit to the extent that I can build myself mentally and physically
00:44:27
through electricity I can stop the action of my heartbeat prevent my lungs from expanding and Contracting control
00:44:34
the passage of food through my body all of this done by electricity false incorrect wow but
00:44:47
arguing that Bob was sane when he committed the murders and knew what he was doing was both morally wrong and
00:44:53
illegal was the district attorney William D or do excuse me and Elena and he pointed to several instances in which
00:45:01
Irwin appeared to be concealing information upon his arrest for example Bob was reluctant to disclose
00:45:07
information about the crimes which implied a certain level of awareness of what he had done and similarly when he
00:45:13
was asked about the fee that he received for his confession Bob explained that he
00:45:17
planned to use a small portion for himself saying if I find myself in an institution for life or something like
00:45:24
that I would like to get a small amount of money so that I can hire someone of my fellow patients or prisoners whatever
00:45:30
you want to call them in such an institution for $1 a week you can get people to do many things for you I mean
00:45:38
that is some highlevel that's high level plan and planning yes like damn right yeah this is such an interesting case
00:45:47
because it's very clear that this man is insane like you can't ill he is a very ill man I mean his actions before this
00:45:55
and you know what he did the self harm that he did to himself and all that stuff is there is something wrong there
00:46:02
but I see what you're saying and I see what the da is saying here with by criminal definition not so much he like
00:46:10
you were when you pointed it out that he killed Frank Burns because he knew somebody could identify him yeah he was
00:46:16
like he's been introduced to me by name and he saw my face and even even Ronnie yeah Ronnie turned around and saw his
00:46:22
face after she didn't get knocked out with the quote unquote Blackjack made out of soap and so he and he was like I
00:46:29
had to kill her like that's that's criminal thinking that's sane thinking that's ordered thinking exactly and it's
00:46:35
like that's I'm byal believe you can have you can be extraordinarily mentally ill but if your moment of Lucidity is
00:46:45
when you murder someone with your [ __ ] bare hands and you know it's wrong to jail you go mhm like you're
00:46:52
guilty yeah that's the way it is like you can't get off of that if you were while you did it and you know what you
00:46:59
did and you still did it and then you made steps to cover it up and to make sure you didn't get
00:47:05
identified there's really no arguing that but then there's the whole issue of can you be institutionalized or can you
00:47:12
be sent a prison when really you should be institutionalized he should absolutely be institutionalized exactly
00:47:18
yeah I think you should still and I think that's where the problem lies because a lot of times figuring out
00:47:23
whether somebody's quote unquote insane or not criminally insane is to sentence them yeah and usually it's like if
00:47:30
you're not insane then straight to prison you go yeah but in this case this man this man is not going to like
00:47:36
prison's not going to do anything for him no and not that prison is like necessarily meant to do anything for
00:47:41
anybody but it kind of is like it's kind of Rehabilitation supposed to be whereas
00:47:46
somebody like this is not necessarily going to be able to be rehabilitated but you also look at an institution and
00:47:52
especially at this time might be worse oh it might be absolutely be even worse it's like I don't think he's going to
00:47:58
come out of there you know ready to Take On The World either no but then you think of the danger in which you're
00:48:04
putting the other prisoners so it's like it's there's this whole gray area I feel
00:48:09
like where it's like I feel like the definition of criminal insanity is so hard it's yeah it's hard it's there's
00:48:19
a lot of because there's so many different variables and gray areas but this one I'm like he was sayane when he
00:48:24
committed those murders in my that's the thing I think I agree with that I think
00:48:27
he was when he committed the murders but then I feel like it's a whole different
00:48:30
story of okay well like what the [ __ ] do we do with him now you know yeah so Dodge argued that this was evidence that
00:48:38
Irwin had already contemplated his options upon arrest and that quote Irwin contemplated the possibility of a trial
00:48:44
which would terminate by committing him to an institution for the insane according to the prosecution the facts
00:48:50
of Irwin's voluntary surrender in Chicago and the shrewd bargain struck with the Chicago Herald examiner which
00:48:56
Irwin initi app and accomplished by himself indicates a a mentality of keenness and comprehension which yeah it
00:49:03
does yeah and I also like I mean I don't I don't put a whole lot of stock in diagnoses that happened
00:49:11
in the 30s so it's like I don't even know if he's schizophrenic I don't know what his diagnosis would be now I don't
00:49:18
know what it would be now and that's the thing I don't know I mean again I'm not
00:49:22
going to armchair diagnose him because I don't know enough about him in his life
00:49:26
and what done I just know that there's moments where he is showing criminal cunning and that's not you know like
00:49:35
that's not I don't know it's just there's a lot it's a tough one this there's a lot of gray area within this
00:49:41
he is completely right when he says that that deal that he struck with the the newspaper that's C for sure a cunning
00:49:48
deal and it was for his benefit and it's like but it's also shows like a lack of I don't even know like an over
00:49:57
overinflated sense of self almost that like or an ego of some kind like a hubris here that like he thought he
00:50:05
could do that and then it's like then what did you think would happen like even he could barely answer that I I
00:50:11
don't think he went from a to c I think he went from A to B with that plan so there's that part of it that's like
00:50:16
that's a disjointed thought here that's the thing so there is a lot of different
00:50:20
details that are confusing and I don't know a lot about schizophrenia but what I do know is that there are periods of
00:50:26
clarity and then there are periods of yeah you know like which that happens with a lot ofal illnesses and diagnoses
00:50:34
yeah so after weighing the evidence the jury determined that Robert Bob Irwin was in fact sane at the time of the
00:50:41
murders wow because of that his case went to criminal trial on November 7th 1938 where Samuel libowitz libowitz did
00:50:48
everything in his power to stall the trial objecting to jurors and repeatedly filing motions to postpone the trial
00:50:55
which honestly that's a tough case there like I feel like he would need all the Time in the World to prepare for that
00:51:01
but then on November 15th the Press reported the surprising news that Bob had accepted a plea deal from the
00:51:07
prosecution where he would plead guilty to Second deegree murder on all three charges and they would remove the death
00:51:13
penalty the district attorney told the Press because of Irwin's previous record of insanity there was a possibility that
00:51:20
the jury might have found might have held him legally insane in which case he might finally have been released from
00:51:26
conf and see that's where my issue comes with the whole like I that if he's found
00:51:32
insane during that you know quote unquote then they'll put him somewhere and then they'll release him and it's
00:51:41
like that's no like a lot of times that's not going to work a lot of times that's where we have another string of
00:51:49
horrible crimes that people pay the ultimate price for because this person was let out and deemed to not be sane
00:51:55
during this whole thing and it's like he would do it again and I think that's where it's like a problem with the
00:52:01
justice system and a problem within like Hospital like hospitalization and that kind of thing
00:52:09
like there I feel like there the whole system then and even now is just yeah it needs to be Revisited for well and it
00:52:16
makes the the jury's job even worse because they're sitting here having to say okay if we find this person not
00:52:23
legally sane during this and he gets committed to an institution is he going to be walking out of there in a year
00:52:30
exactly you know like less than that sometimes cuz you would have to think of that yeah so yeah it it's tough yeah so
00:52:36
instead the prosecution intended to recommend a sentence of 90 years to life on each count to be served consecutively
00:52:43
okay on November 28th Bob appeared before Judge James Wallace who I'm almost 99% sure we have covered before
00:52:50
like he's been in cases that we covered just sounds very familiar uh that was in
00:52:54
the court of General Sessions and he was sentenced to 139 years in prison 99 years for the murder of Burns and 20
00:53:02
years for each of the murders of Mary and Veronica Gideon wow when asked if he had anything to say on his own behalf
00:53:08
Bob said ordinarily this business of asking a prisoner if he has anything to say is a mere formality the man is
00:53:14
generally guilty of willful aggression against Society or he is too ignorant to speak for himself I'm not guilty of any
00:53:21
willful aggression against society and then he wasn't done yet but judge Wallace interrupted and said this is no
00:53:27
time for a long speech or extended remarks but Bob ignored the judge and continued this is a farce I have a
00:53:34
definite and real reason why sentence should not be pronounced you say you represent Justice I say you do not you
00:53:40
represent a rich man's Justice it no I think you just killed three people pretty brutally yeah and
00:53:48
then made great effort to hide it great effort so I think that's that's the problem Bob yep so
00:53:58
after managing to get Bob under control judge Wallace uh reread the charges and the sentence and then turned to the
00:54:04
district attorney to make it clear that he had accepted the guilty please on the
00:54:08
recommendation of the District Attorney's office but he had done so with reservations the judge he said
00:54:14
there is no question the defendant is mentally unsound in my opinion the state has lost nothing in accepting these
00:54:20
pleas except possibly the execution of this defendant and that would bring no credit to the state yeah so he's like I
00:54:27
don't really know if what we're doing here is great yeah but he was like but I guess we're not executing him which like
00:54:33
good woo for us but it turned out that judge Wallace was not the only one who questioned whether sending Irwin to
00:54:38
prison was the right decision or not a little more than a week into his sentence at singing Bob was transferred
00:54:44
to damura state hospital for the criminally insane after two singing psychi psychiatrists evaluated him and
00:54:50
deemed him very definitely insane quote unquote yeah while at danam Mora he studied for languages and eventually
00:54:57
taught himself French German Latin polish Italian and quote also invented an international language of his
00:55:06
own wow yeah damn when he wasn't spending time on his education he wrote letters to his former psychiatrist
00:55:14
Frederick uh Wortham and even began a long-distance correspondence with a woman in Cuba wow however within a year
00:55:21
his anger got the better of him and became he became one of the more unruly patients at the hospital who most often
00:55:27
required solitary confinement he's aggressive he is aggressive and dangerous in 1975 he died at the uh
00:55:36
Matan I think it is state hospital for the criminally insane after an 8-year battle with cancer and he was 67 years
00:55:42
old when he died wow the fact that he lived until 1975 yeah it's like so it's so strange to yeah to like wrap your
00:55:50
brain around that time frame that's a wild one and it's just so it's for his life was sad like when he was a child so
00:56:00
you feel bad for the child absolutely you feel so bad for Ethel Gideon oh my goodness having to live the rest of her
00:56:07
life knowing that she was the intended victim and not her mother and sister and an innocent border at the house that
00:56:13
they just became collateral damage EX in his whole thing and then for the victims
00:56:18
it's like Frank is just sleeping in his bed just a border in that house just wrong place wrong time entirely the mom
00:56:25
was always good to him Ronnie was always good to him they the whole family was good to this man they
00:56:31
did nothing to deserve that except he just couldn't have Ethel and he couldn't handle it he just became obsessed like
00:56:38
yeah scary scary scary obsessed wow but it's such a wild case and it was handled
00:56:44
so wild on so many different levels by the Press first with publishing fake details about the murders when nobody
00:56:50
even knew anything yet yeah that's snarly exploiting Ronnie and like all the photographers that had work with her
00:56:57
but then like True Detective being they came out look smelling like roses here like the one that you say like oh man
00:57:04
those detective magazines they're the ones who come out and they're like we actually give a [ __ ] about her exactly
00:57:09
like that's crazy and then the [ __ ] Chicago Tribune that way back yeah way back I was like oh my God you guys
00:57:16
wouldn't do that now right you would never do that now you would never do that now they couldn't do that there's
00:57:22
no [ __ ] I'm like how did this how was this allowed Wy Behavior insane so yeah yeah wow that is that is part two for
00:57:33
you and that wraps it up damn and the Easter Sunday murders wow well thanks for that you're welcome um
00:57:44
with that we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you don't turn into what I'm
00:57:49
pretty sure next is a listener tale yeah party [Music] [Music] [Music] I have the breath of a woman who just
00:58:55
ate a salad Jean [Laughter] salad that's going to the end cuz I had a little salad with a
00:59:08
little garlic little garlic garlic and vinegar for stinky ass breath breath hell yeah okay let's do this