00:00:00
Hey weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. This is Morbid. And we just got finished watching the is
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it 2009 document? >> I think it is 2009. Hold on. >> Catfish the movie. >> Catfish. The TV show. The movie it all
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stemmed from. Oh, 2010. 2010. Wow. I for some reason I thought it was earlier than that. That movie. Wow. Henry aged
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really well. Henry did age very well. >> That's actually nuts. Um, but if you haven't watched that movie yet, where
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are you? >> Honestly, everybody aged pretty well. >> You gota you got to watch that movie.
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That movie will give you so many different emotions. It feels like a horror movie. it. No, I I stand by the
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fact that it turn it turns into a horror movie. I remember the first time I watched it, I was like, "Oh, is this
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like a found footage thing?" >> Yeah, we thought it was a horror movie when we first watched it.
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>> Yeah, I fully get that. >> It's a weird comfort movie for me, even though it's not comforting in any way.
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Because the time period it came out in, we watched it when we were like living with friends and we all watched it
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together. >> Yeah. And it has like a nice cozy feel to it and I remember very vividly
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watching it for the first time. >> Yeah. >> So it is like one of those movies I can
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put on and it puts me in like a weird cozy place. I don't It's weird. >> All right. I get I get it being from a
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time period that like feels comfy. I I understand that cuz there are certain movies that are just like
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>> I love and this is this movie is awful. There's one scene that I can't watch. Um
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>> god. >> No, it's true. Hold on. I'm literally having I'm having problems. It's the
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Yaya Sisterhood, I think. Divine Secrets of the Yaya. The >> traveling band. >> No. Oh my god, that's exactly what I was
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going to say. I kept going to say Sisterhood of the Traveling Band. I don't know why.
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>> I was like, that's not it. >> Cuz sister Sisterhood, you know. >> Sisterhood. Yeah. No, the Divine Secrets
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of the Yaya Sisterhood. I love that movie, but it's like the darkest movie of all time.
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>> I've never seen that movie. >> You would hate it. There's one scene that like literally I could never watch
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again. >> Really? >> Yeah. I saw it one like way too young, but I love that movie. But it's like I
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think it just like reminds me of a of childhood or something. >> That's the thing. It's like it's not
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necessarily I will say with Catfish though, every time I feel like I know what is going to happen cuz I've seen it
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a million times. >> Still shocked. >> I'm still shocked by it and I'm still like just you could knock me over with a
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goddamn feather every time. >> I get it. >> And we were watching it and Deb had not
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seen it had not seen it actually. So, we had them watch it for the first time and
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they were shocked. And watching their reactions, >> that's the thing. >> Made us sit there and go, "Wait a
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second. We should >> maybe we should talk about the original Catfish movie on a bonus episode cuz you
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know it'll be fun and terrifying and wild." >> And if you've never seen it before,
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>> go watch it. >> Don't spoil it for yourself. Go watch it. >> Yeah. Don't Don't Google anything.
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>> But maybe we'll do we have a few bonus episodes planned out ahead of time. Like
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we're going to be covering Eclipse obviously. We've got um a fun book and we have
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>> America's Next Top Model Top Model. Um so we have those lined up, but we could
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do it after those. And just let us know if that sounds like a good idea. I feel like it would be a fun
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>> Yeah, it' be fun. >> A fun one to like deep dive into. >> It feels crimey cuz I would also love to
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go into like this happening like the the phenomenon of catfishing on the >> cuz doesn't it feel crimey?
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>> Oh, it >> like identity theft is a crime. >> Yeah. I mean, if it does feel very
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crimey, especially >> and I I don't want to ruin anything, so like I feel >> I feel like it would be a fun episode.
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>> Yeah, there's so much to talk about. >> Yeah. So, let us know if that sounds like a good a good episode, a bonus
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episode for a few out from now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Hit us up. >> Yeah. >> Um I have a wild case today and Dave
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named this one and I said, "What am I getting into?" >> Mommy and Clyde. >> Mommy and Clyde.
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>> Mommy and Clyde. It's the crimes of Santa and Kenny Kimes. >> Okay. >> And I hadn't heard of this one when I
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dived into it. >> No, I haven't heard of it. >> And I was swimming in a sea of what the
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[ __ ] >> Oh, I I always love that. >> And it starts like really beautifully, but then it gets so sad so fast.
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>> Let's go, girls. >> And then it gets [ __ ] dark and crazy and murderous. >> Oh, man.
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>> So, it also starts on July 4th. >> Oh. On July 4th, 1998, 82year-old Irene Silverman threw a small party for her
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friends at her East 65th Street townhouse. >> Let's go. >> She was a former ballet dancer who had
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studied under the famous Russian instructor Michael Fokin. Um, and even once she was retired and got older, she
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never lost a single bit of her elegance. This woman is gorgeous and >> her friend John Gruin said she was a
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very exquisite woman, very beautiful. I remember offering her some coffee or tea
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when she came to our house. She refused, saying she was in constant pain with a bad back. She told us the only way that
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she could allay the pain was with champagne. And with that, she took a small bottle out of her purse and we got
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her a glass. Honestly, she sounds iconic. >> I love her. So, it seemed like everybody
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who had even just a casual relationship with Irene had only good things to say about her. Her former dancer Janice
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Herbert said, "She was so hip, so funny, so awake. she was with it. >> Another close friend, Zang Toy, echoed
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those same statements. He said, "She's vivacious. She's a lot of fun." Uh, Zang Toy and Irene had actually been friends
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for many, many years. So, of course, he had been to her Manhattan townhouse for a ton of the lavish parties that she had
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thrown throughout the years, and he was always amazed by the lengths that she went to just to make sure everybody was
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entertained. Like, anybody who was at her party, there was going to be something special for each person. He
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said she knew how to throw a great party during her heyday and she had a heart of
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gold. A >> so rewinding a bit now. Irene had been born into a poor family in New Orleans,
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Louisiana. >> New Orleans. >> So you would love her. She was born in 1916. Her father was a fisherman. Her mother
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was a seamstress. And despite the odds, she did manage to escape that poverty through her incredible talent and
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commitment to dance. She was a beautiful dancer. Eventually, she landed a spot studying with some of the most famous
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ballet instructors in the world. Damn. >> And at her height, she was dancing on some of the most prestigious stages. Um,
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which included a high-profile position with the Radio City Music Hall's classical ballet company.
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>> Oh [ __ ] >> Like, that's a huge deal. >> That's huge. >> And that was called, I believe it was
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called Core Deb Ballet. >> Uh, she used to say, "Lots of people think I'm very rich, and I am, but I've
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always worked. And look at where I am." >> And look at where I began. I'm a tough
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broad, a child of the depression. I had to be self-supporting from the age of 16.
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>> Wow. >> I just love lots of people think I'm rich and I am. She's like, "Fuck you. I
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worked for it." >> Yeah. Good for her. >> She's got great energy. So, in 1941, Irene married millionaire real estate
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broker Sam Silverman. And they were happily married until his death in 1980. Obviously, they had been married for so
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so long. So, Sam's death was incredibly hard for Irene. But she was determined to hold on to her love of life. She
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didn't want to just lose herself in his death. And in the years that followed, she was just making sure she was
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constantly surrounded by friends and family. Now, she was a widow, so she had a lot of time on her hands, and she also
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had more money than she knew what to do with. So, 59-year-old Irene enrolled in courses at Columbia University.
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>> Wow. >> Started taking classes. Look at her. And then she'd throw these huge parties for
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her classmates and her instructors. And she would regularly treat them to like small gifts or gestures of her
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friendship. Her friend George Franco said these gatherings were colorful improvised theater over which Irene
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presided, reveling in the intrigue and drama of it all. She sounds like a hot [ __ ] ticket.
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>> She really does. >> She really does. >> It wasn't just that she wanted to fill
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her time after her husband's death either. It seemed like no matter where she was, she just wanted to be
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surrounded by people. Like she had a love for life. >> Yeah. >> In the wake of Sam's passing, she
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decided to rent out one or two of the rooms. She had very large bedrooms in her Manhattan mansion. And over the
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years, she shared her home with tenants like actor Daniel Lewis. >> Oh, okay. >> She rented out to Lenny Kravitz and
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Shaka Khan. >> No big deal. >> Isn't that nuts? >> No big deal. And it wasn't that she
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needed the money. She just didn't like being alone. And she again loved being around people.
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>> And why not have really awesome people around all the time? >> Well, and that's the thing. When it came
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to choosing tenants, she had two requirements. They had to be e interesting and they had to be easy to
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get along with. >> Honestly, that's so valid. >> Yeah, that was pretty much it. So, those
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who happily shared their lives with her usually found themselves rewarded too in
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like just unexpected ways. Yeah. According to journalist Alex Kirsta, they might find Silverman's antique
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silver service and a bottle of champagne left in their dining room when she knew
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they were holding a party. One who had embarked on a romance with a new girlfriend came home one day to find his
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old bed replaced with a much larger one. >> Wow. >> She said, "Get to it." >> She said, "You know what?"
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>> She said, "You're welcome. >> I'll help." >> Yeah. Exactly. I'm like, "I want to be
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friends with Irene." >> Yeah. So, at the end of the night, just where we started on July 4th, Irene said
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goodbye and good night to her guests and she went to bed. The next morning, uh her maid, Archella, came to clean up
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after the party and it was a holiday obviously, so the rest of the staff was off and Archella herself was planning to
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leave around noon. She was working a shorter shift. >> Okay. >> The last time she saw Irene, she was
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still dressed in her night gown and her slippers. And Irene asked if Archella would take the dog for a walk on the
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roof garden before she left. And Archella was planning to leave for a few hours and then she was going to come
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back. Okay. >> So she was like, "Oh, before you go, just walk the dog." So when Archella
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returned after being away around 400 p.m. she got back, the house was empty and there was no sign of Irene anywhere,
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which was very strange. >> Yeah. >> And as far as Archella knew, Irene didn't have any plans to go out that
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day. The rest of the staff was gone. And Irene, like I just told you, she loves being surrounded by people. She very
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rarely went anywhere alone. M. >> So it seemed highly unlikely that she would have left without saying anything
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to anybody. >> Yeah. >> So obviously concerned that something was wrong, Archella called Irene's
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butler, Meni Menistu, knowing that if anybody knew where Irene had gone, it would be Menji. But Menji hadn't heard
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from Irene since the day before when he left for the long weekend. >> Uhoh. So similarly, Irene's close friend
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and business manager, Jeff Fee, hadn't heard from her in a day or two, and he said she hadn't mentioned having any
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plans to go anywhere over the holiday weekend. So he agreed it was weird. >> Yeah.
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>> So Archella waited in the house for an hour or two. She was like, you know, she
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could have gone somewhere it would be out of character, but let's not panic. But after an hour or two, there was the
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panic was starting to set in. Yeah. >> There was still no sign of Irene. So Archella called the police. Now,
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strangely, the day after 4th of July is a quieter day for the Manhattan police. When the call came in about a missing
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elderly socialite, it didn't seem like a emergency situation, which is kind of weird to me, but the case was assigned
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to newly promoted junior detective, uh, Tom Havajim Hovage, excuse me. Later, he
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said, "I just gotten promoted in January, so the other two guys were pretty senior to me, and they said,
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well, kid, this is yours because nobody really wants a missing person's case. It's tedious work.
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>> Damn. >> I was like, that's fake as well. >> All right, cool. It's tedious to find
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someone missing. >> So you do it nice. >> And also like you're junior so you do it. I'm like, but you guys are senior so
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you might be a little better at it. >> And it's like a whole person missing. >> Yeah. Somebody's loved one.
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>> You could treat it with a little more than that. >> Respect, dignity, any of the above.
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>> But luckily, Detective Hovage was a good detective. He drove to Irene's six-story
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townhouse on the Upper East Side and he started collecting information. I just like picturing a sixstory townhouse. All
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I can think of is Sonia Morgan's house. >> That's literally all I could think of
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from Real Housewives of New York. >> But like to have to collect evidence from a home like that.
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>> Yeah. >> I can't imagine. >> And there's all this like expensive >> I was going to say in this like
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of living in there that you have to like search through, you know, >> you also have to be careful. Like it's a
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lot. So with Archella as a guide, Hovajim searched the entire house and the entire property, but there was truly
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no sign of Irene anywhere. After searching the house, he spoke with the attendees of the party the previous
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evening, but didn't really find anything useful or suspicious there. And the same
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was true of Irene's staff. Everybody was accounted for, and nobody had any information that seemed useful in
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finding Irene, and none of them seemed suspicious in any way. So, other than the missing homeowner, there was really
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just one thing that seemed out of the ordinary. Irene's current tenant, a man named Manny Garin, also appeared to be
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missing. >> Huh. >> So, about 3 weeks earlier, on June 14th, Manny Garin showed up at Irene's door.
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He said he was a businessman from Palm Beach and he was looking to rent one of her large vacant apartments upstairs.
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>> Okay. >> He I think earlier I said they were rooms. They were actually apartments cuz
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picture like a a townhouse. >> Yeah, that makes sense. So Manny was charming. He was well spoken. Two things
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that Irene prized. Seems like he might be easy to get along with. >> A good tenant.
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>> But the only weird thing was he didn't have any references or identification.
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What he did have though was $6,000 cash for the first month's rent and a promise
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that he would give her the references the following day. So all it's a red flag for sure, but
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especially because we know >> from Yeah, I was going to say it's from like, you know, the rearview mirror. A
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red flag, >> but and I think I mean she was 84. She probably is like I kne I can read people
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at this point and like I'm getting good vibes. >> He's a businessman. He's got the money.
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>> Obviously the vibes run off to her. So >> right. So all things considered, she
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said she couldn't see the harm in letting him get settled and giving him a couple days to put together a list of
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references. So she let him move in that very day. But the problems began almost immediately.
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>> Oh no. >> Once he moved into the large first fuller apartment, he became far less
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charming than he had been on that first day. When Irene or the staff members interacted with him at all, he seemed to
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avoid eye contact, which was obviously very strange. >> And he also would only give one word and
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often very blunt responses. >> He refused to allow the cleaning staff into his apartment.
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>> Oh. >> Which it's like, >> why? >> You don't own it. Yeah, >> you're just you're renting it. And
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anytime Irene would press him for those references, he'd come up with one excuse
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or another about why he didn't have them. >> Yep. >> Equally troubling was the number of
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suspiciousl looking people who seemed to show up at his apartment at all hours. >> Uhoh.
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>> Including an older woman who he quote always seemed to shield from the security camera when letting her in.
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This would [ __ ] me up. Yeah. Irene wasn't the only person who found him suspicious. Her staff also found him
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strange and disconcerting. More than once, one of them noticed him staring at Irene's open office door or like lurking
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around at the door. >> The [ __ ] >> Menji Menistu, her butler, expressed his concern to many of Irene's close
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friends, including James Shenton. Shenton said Menji became suspicious when Guin started getting pi and trying
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to turn him against Irene. Uh Guin asked why they were all silly enough to go on
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working there and said she was just a wealthy exploer who didn't care about their future
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>> and that they'd never end up with money or security and he suggested they come
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work for him instead. >> What the [ __ ] >> But you have to imagine. >> Get the [ __ ] out of here. Also, this
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woman has wellestablished relationships with these people. They know who she is.
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>> You think you're going to turn them on her right now? >> And she treats her staff like family.
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>> That's the thing. Like she puts her money where her mouth is. >> Exactly. So eventually several of the
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staff members including Magistu told Irene about their concerns. They were trying to have respect for her. Of
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course >> this guy's talking [ __ ] behind your back. >> Right. Exactly. Like in the beginning I
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think they were like you know what you're doing and like we're not going to sec we're not going to guess second
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guess you. But I think as time went on they were like Irene are you sure about this? We're getting weird vibes.
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>> Kind of shady. And they had actually heard they I think they felt more confident sharing these concerns after
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they heard her arguing with him for a few day a few days after he moved in. >> Oh, damn. I thought you were going to
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say for a few days. >> For a few days. I almost did. >> I was like the stamina that takes.
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>> Yeah, they were arguing for days. >> So Irene's friend Bob uh Yakovic remembered Valerie and Menji both warned
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her not to trust him. Down in the kitchen, Menji had drawn an Ethiopian crucifform symbol on top of the fridge
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as if to ward off evil, saying, "These people mean you no good. They are bad and you should be afraid of them."
00:16:54
>> Wa. >> Irene's respon response was that she was an old lady who had survived many
00:16:58
dangers and she still wasn't afraid of anybody. >> She is such a bad [ __ ] >> She really is. But still, after just one
00:17:06
week. >> Wow. >> This all happened in one week. >> This all happened in one week.
00:17:10
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Irene had had enough of Manny and she told him she wanted him out. He never
00:17:13
got her the references. Yeah. He's trying to turn her staff against her. He's bringing all these weird people in.
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She's like, "Get out of here." >> The following day, she instructed her business manager to serve him with
00:17:24
eviction papers before the month's lease was even up. >> Good for her. >> So, the last time that James Shenton, a
00:17:30
friend of Irene, saw her was June 27th, just one week before the Fourth of July party. Irene might have talked a tough
00:17:37
game, but she and you know, she was definitely a very self-sufficient woman. But that day, her friend couldn't help
00:17:42
but notice that she seemed particularly spooked by what was going on. >> Rather than sit inside to have coffee
00:17:48
and talk like they always did, Irene insisted they go up to the rooftop garden because she was quote nervous of
00:17:54
being overheard. >> She felt like she was being listened to. >> Imagine having a rooftop garden to go
00:18:00
to. >> [ __ ] wish to talk [ __ ] >> I would never stop talking [ __ ] on my rooftop garden. Only reason for my
00:18:06
rooftop garden is talk [ __ ] >> I would name it something about >> talking [ __ ]
00:18:10
>> Talking [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like that would I would decorate it for optimal [ __ ] talking.
00:18:16
>> Yes. Absolutely. >> Comfy chairs. >> Oh, hell yeah. >> Mini fridge. >> Yep. >> Snacks.
00:18:22
>> Teacups. >> Teacups. Spilling tea. Metaphorically and literally. >> Those chairs are going to have big comfy
00:18:28
pillows so you can sit cross-legged. >> Someday. Someday let's get a roof garden
00:18:32
where we can talk [ __ ] Shake, >> shaking. >> We're shaking across the room. We're
00:18:37
doing that. >> So, they went up to the roof garden to talk [ __ ] And when Shettton asked Irene
00:18:43
what was wrong, she said, I can't tell you what's wrong. I don't want to put you in danger. You'll know more next
00:18:48
week. >> That would [ __ ] me up. >> I would be like, I'm going to take you away from here. Like,
00:18:53
>> I'd be like, we got to go somewhere. Yeah, I can't. >> But obviously, at the same time, Irene's
00:18:58
telling you like, I can handle it. I'm good. So, there's nothing he could have done to get involved.
00:19:02
>> I No, definitely not. I just wouldn't be able to let that go. I would think about
00:19:05
it day and night. Yeah. Day and night. >> Absolutely. >> So, the disappearance, >> this happened to us earlier. Sorry, I
00:19:11
didn't mean to interrupt you. >> No, no, you're good. Somebody gave us a very vague like, "Oh, don't worry about
00:19:16
it. This person said this." And we hung up the phone and we said, >> "No." Immediately texted. We're like,
00:19:21
"Tell me everything that person said. I don't care what it was. I know. I need to know."
00:19:26
>> And we convinced them to tell us what they said. >> Yeah. Cuz I'll obsess over it forever.
00:19:29
And we won. >> Yeah. So the disappearance of Manny Guan at the same time as Irene Silverman went
00:19:34
missing was definitely suspicious. >> Yeah. >> But at the same time Irene had insisted
00:19:39
that she wanted him out and her business manager had given him eviction papers. So too, Detective Hovage, he thought it
00:19:46
was possible that maybe Manny had just simply left as he was instructed. >> Yeah. It's like it's it's suspicious
00:19:51
that they are gone at the same time, but like if you look at it peacemail, you're
00:19:55
like, well, his disappearance isn't crazy >> because of what you just said, >> right?
00:20:00
>> It's just when you put it together that it gets like a little >> Well, and then as he was leaving the
00:20:05
house, the detective, he noticed a spot of blood on the ground by the front entrance and the case was immediately
00:20:11
elevated to something far more concerning than just a missing person. >> This is echoing the Nancy Guthrie case
00:20:17
right now. >> Okay, thank you. in a way I can't handle. >> Thank you so much. >> It's all I could think of while I was
00:20:23
putting this together. >> That's so weird, >> isn't it? >> And that's not on purpose either.
00:20:28
>> No, it's not on purpose at all. >> Which also, just a quick little thing, they still don't have like updates. They
00:20:33
detained someone last night, but then let him go. >> Yeah. >> Like, what the [ __ ] is going on in that
00:20:38
case? >> I know. It's very strange. >> I'll I'll keep watching. >> The doorbell footage is haunting.
00:20:43
>> Doorbell footage is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. >> I hate it so much. It ruined everything
00:20:47
about me. >> Yeah, I >> to the core of my being. >> It's I was watching it last night before
00:20:51
I went to bed and I was having weird dreams afterwards. I know. >> Like such a bad idea. Truly the worst
00:20:56
idea. But back to this. Things only got more alarming when one of the staff members opened Manny's room for the
00:21:02
detective. And inside, Hovage found a small number of personal items. But what stood out most were the garbage bags,
00:21:11
the roll of duct tape, and the shower curtain rings on the shower rod with lack of a shower curtain.
00:21:18
>> Oh yeah, that points to something. >> Sure does. So the next day, Hovim and his partner Joe Resnik held a press
00:21:26
conference to ask for the public's help in locating Irene Silverman and Manny Guin. They didn't have a photo of Manny,
00:21:32
but they did have a professional quality sketch of him that Irene had actually had done a few days before she
00:21:37
disappeared, which is just next level. Wow. So, they use that as a reference for the public.
00:21:43
>> Now, Detective Ed Murray of the NYPD's Fugitive Task Force happened to be watching that press conference that day.
00:21:51
When he saw the sketch, he immediately recognized the man not as Manny Guin, but as Kenny Kimes.
00:21:58
>> Oh, no. a car thief and con artist that he had taken into custody just a day earlier, a few hours after Irene
00:22:06
Silverman had disappeared. >> Oh no. >> So a few weeks before Kenny Kimes showed
00:22:11
up at Irene's door posing as Manny Guarin, he and his mother Santa had fled Utah after writing a bad check to rent a
00:22:18
Lincoln Town Car. The fraud was reported to the police and when they were discovered to be in the New York area,
00:22:23
the fugitive task force set up a sting operation to capture them. Okay, >> so from the moment that Santa and Kenny
00:22:29
Kims were arrested, Murray found the pair to be very odd. He said there was something that I just didn't think it
00:22:36
was like a mother and a son. He said they were clearly related, but Santa seemed to be more like a criminal boss
00:22:41
in the way that she talked to her son. >> Damn, she did like a mother. And when they pulled both their criminal records,
00:22:48
what came back was a startling trail of crimes and suspicions of things much more serious than check fraud.
00:22:56
>> Interesting. >> So Santa Kims, let's get into who she was. Santa Kimmes was born Sandra Louise
00:23:01
Singers, I believe it is, in Oklahoma City on July 24th, 1934. She was one of three children born to marry and pray
00:23:09
Singers. Uh she was born during the peak of the dust bowl in the part of the US that was most affected by the dust bowl.
00:23:15
So they went on to move to LA to look for work. >> According to her oldest son Kent Walker,
00:23:21
Santa's oldest son, not long after arriving in LA, Prem abandoned his family and left the children to wander
00:23:28
the streets of LA day and night while their mother did whatever she could to support their family, which
00:23:33
>> sometimes included sex work. >> Yeah. Now, it would be several decades before Kent learned that most of what he
00:23:40
thought he knew about his mother's past was largely untrue. She had lied to him for most of his life.
00:23:45
>> Interesting. >> The father had not abandoned the family. He actually died of a heart attack when
00:23:50
Santa was about 5 years old. >> That's different. >> Very different. And according to her
00:23:54
sister, Reeba, >> Reeba, >> love that. They had been a solid middle-ass family and nobody ever relied
00:24:01
on sex work to support the family. >> What the [ __ ] Yeah, >> that's the weirdest [ __ ] I've ever
00:24:06
heard. Why? What? >> Yeah. Considering her extensive history as a con artist and a consmate liar,
00:24:14
it's really hard to determine what part of her life is true and what part is not
00:24:19
true and what's a lie and what's not. >> I know people who like do that. >> Same.
00:24:24
>> All the time. Like they just make up like entire backstories and it's like why are you doing that? Like I like
00:24:32
write a book. I think it becomes >> you can write a whole backstory for a character in a book and it won't affect
00:24:38
anyone. >> I think it becomes like compulsive at a certain point and then >> pathological
00:24:43
>> pathological and I do believe that there are people who believe they start to
00:24:47
believe the falsehoods that they make up. >> I don't know if she's one of them but
00:24:51
>> I don't know what the difference between like pathological and compulsive would
00:24:54
be because like a compulsive liar and a pathological My ex-boyfriend told me once because he said he was one. I think
00:25:00
a compulsive liar >> wait lies. He told me one of them. >> A pathological liar lies because they
00:25:08
can't help it. A compulsive liar lies to get out of trouble. >> One of them is like you lie when you
00:25:13
don't have to. And I'm not kidding you. My ex-boyfriend on like he was very matter of fact when he would get caught
00:25:19
doing things >> cuz you called him a pathological liar >> because I said you're you're a [ __ ]
00:25:22
pathological liar and he said I'm not actually because pathological liars lie when they don't have to. And he always
00:25:28
lied when he had to. He felt well actually he was a pathological liar. He just wasn't a convulsive liar.
00:25:33
>> Yeah, he I think he was lying when he said he wasn't a pathological liar. >> That's a mind [ __ ] So p this is
00:25:39
according to Google. Pathological liars lie manipulatively to gain control, which is what he did.
00:25:44
>> Yep. >> Attention or an advantage. >> There you go. >> Often with little remor remorse to serve
00:25:49
a selfish agenda. So he's a pathological liar. >> Yeah, he was wrong. Conversely,
00:25:54
compulsive liars lie habitually as an automatic, uncontrollable urge to cope with anxiety or stress, often about
00:26:01
small, mundane matters without a clear motive. >> Maybe that maybe I had it wrong then.
00:26:05
Maybe it was like flipped around that compulsive liars lie technically when they don't have to. But pathological
00:26:09
liars, >> pathological lying is more calculated. Compulsive lying is more impulsriven.
00:26:14
>> That makes sense. >> Yeah, it sounds like she could have been a pathological liar, I would say.
00:26:18
>> Yeah, she kind of sounds like she was pathological. >> Yeah, but then I don't know the
00:26:21
difference. And I I don't think there is a difference. But I wonder what kind of
00:26:25
liars start to believe their own lies. If there's like a word for that. >> Yeah. Cuz cuz
00:26:29
>> that's just that just becomes like a mental health disorder. >> But I wonder if that's just in general
00:26:33
like if you lie enough. >> Yeah. >> Which I do believe that that's a thing because like if you lie enough you begin
00:26:39
to believe >> what you're lying about cuz your brain will be like well this is real.
00:26:43
>> It's like how you tell yourself if you're like you're like oh I'm so ugly. Your brain starts to believe it.
00:26:47
>> It's true. So it's like if you tell yourself anything for long enough, your brain will start to
00:26:53
>> go into like survival mode of like, well, this is life now, so I have to live it.
00:26:59
>> Yeah. So that's lies. >> Lies. Uh but it's hard to determine what part of Santa's life is true and what's
00:27:05
lies. Most of it's lies, I guess. >> Lies. >> Uh even her son, Kent, who's her older
00:27:10
son, by the way. It's a little confusing because there's Kent and then there's Kenny. I was gonna say Kenny.
00:27:15
>> And then she also marries a man named Ken, which is very confusing. >> Wow. >> Yeah, it's a lot. I I think she also
00:27:20
marries a man named Kent. No, she doesn't. >> Holy [ __ ] >> There there's Ken. >> Ken and Kenny.
00:27:24
>> That's like Ron Swanson when like my wife my wife Tammy, my second wife Tammy, and then his mom Tammy.
00:27:31
>> And yes, my mother's name is Tamara. >> Yeah, >> we call her Tammy. I don't understand.
00:27:36
It's a lot. So, even her son Kent acknowledges that his mother's backstory should be taken with a grain of salt for
00:27:42
sure. According to Santa's Yeah, exactly. What' you say? Cuz lies. Yeah, cuz lies. Pablo. So, according to
00:27:49
Santa's version of the story, when she was still very young, she ingratiated herself to a local theater owner who
00:27:56
took pity on her and started buying her lunches whenever she came around. And this was uh Doy Seligman. Do's
00:28:03
brother-in-law, Edward Chambers, and his wife Mary had always wanted children, but had been unable to have any of their
00:28:10
own through natural means. So Die arranged for the couple to adopt Santa and within a few years of living in
00:28:16
California, she had a new home and a new name. Sandy Chambers. >> What? >> I don't know if that's true.
00:28:24
>> It was. >> It might be. It might not be. All right. We don't really know. >> Cool.
00:28:29
>> But according to those who did know Santa during her early years, she was a liar and a thief all while she was still
00:28:34
in high school. >> Wo. >> And her inclination to manipulate and con others only got worse the older she
00:28:40
got. >> Oh no. So, by then she had renamed herself Santa. >> Santa. >> She believed the name sounded more
00:28:45
French and therefore more sophisticated. >> I mean, is she correct? Yeah. >> Actually, we were setting some This just
00:28:51
reminded me, we're tangenting today. >> Yeah, it's it's one of those days. We were setting up an account the other
00:28:55
day. Drew was. And the guy was like, "Oh, should I add I'm so sorry if I say this wrong. Ash."
00:29:02
And Drew was like, "Oh, it's just Ashley." >> Ashley. >> And he goes, "It's spelled so fancy.
00:29:08
>> It is." I was like, "Yeah, >> I mean, he's right." >> It is. That's I was like, "You can just
00:29:12
say Ash. It's so funny. I love that a lot." >> So, my name is French and more sophisticated. Ashley.
00:29:18
>> Imagine if I just demanded everybody call me that cuz I thought it sounded more sophisticated.
00:29:22
>> You should. >> Well, Santa did. So, in 1956, Santa reconnected with an old boyfriend,
00:29:28
Edward Walker. They got married not long after, and one year later, her first son, Kent, with a hard T, Kent, okay,
00:29:35
was born. But his arrival did not do a lot to strengthen the couple's already failing marriage. At the time, Edward
00:29:41
was a contractor who built houses in and around Sacramento, and it was a stable job with a pretty decent income. But it
00:29:48
was far from the riches that Santa believed she deserved. She wanted more. >> Yeah.
00:29:52
>> So, in 1960, she set fire to one of her husband's properties. >> Oh [ __ ] >> And she escalated fast.
00:29:58
>> I said, "So, you know what she did about it? She collected an insurance payout.
00:30:01
>> I deserve more." And then commits arson. Yeah, she committed lots of arson. >> Damn.
00:30:06
>> So, in the years that followed, several more of Edward's construction projects
00:30:10
would quote burn down mysteriously. >> I just feel bad for Edward. >> I do too. That's his hard work.
00:30:15
>> Yeah, he's doing like and all the people that had to build all of that and put in
00:30:19
hours and hours and days >> burning them down to E. >> Yeah, she sucks. >> So, in 1961, she was arrested and
00:30:26
convicted not for arson, but for shoplifting in Sacramento. Yes. And after that, it kind of seems like her
00:30:32
marriage disintegrated. She and Edward were living apart by then. They got back together every now and again and talked
00:30:38
of reconciling permanently. >> But by 1969, they finally gave up and officially divorced. Now single, Santa
00:30:46
left Sacramento, >> ready to mingle. >> Ready to mingle. And she wanted to mingle in the decidedly more glamorous
00:30:52
Palm Springs. >> Oh my. >> And she took her son Kent with her. >> It was there that she met Ken.
00:30:58
>> Oh, okay. So, not Ken. She met Ken Kimes. >> It was a lot. >> Yeah. Ken was a wealthy motel developer
00:31:04
who was nearly 20 years senior. >> Oh. >> He didn't know it at the time, but their
00:31:09
meeting had not in fact been by chance at all. >> Oh. >> Santa had read about him in his recent
00:31:15
divorce in a magazine article which also referenced his net worth. >> Oh. >> So, seeing him in the life of luxury
00:31:22
that she believed she was entitled to, she orchestrated their meeting and they were dating in no time. That's
00:31:28
confidence though. >> It's called manifest. >> I will give her that. >> Look it up.
00:31:31
>> She's like I love that she was just like I can snag him. >> And she did. >> Good for you on that front.
00:31:36
>> On that. >> Yeah. Period. >> Just that. >> A few years later in 1975, their son
00:31:41
Kenny was born. And Jesus Ken. Kenny's Kent. >> So, first came Kent, then came Ken, then
00:31:48
came Kenny. >> Okay. >> So, Kenny is Ken Jr. >> Yeah. That's the Kenny. That was Manny.
00:31:54
>> Exactly. You're following. You're following. Get your red string out, everybody.
00:31:58
>> So, Kenny was born in uh 1975 and 6 years after that, Santa and Ken officially got married in Nevada. Okay.
00:32:05
>> And I said it right. >> You did say it right. >> I know. And I don't even say it like
00:32:09
that. I did that for you guys. >> Oh, I say it wrong. I was just about to I was like, maybe I say it right. And
00:32:13
then I said, no, I don't. I say Nevada. >> We say it wrong. >> Sorry. >> But I said it right for the listener.
00:32:18
>> That's really nice of you. >> You're welcome. So, by all accounts, there never seemed to be a moment in
00:32:23
Santa's life where she wasn't scheming, calling, ripping somebody off. >> Aren't you tired?
00:32:28
>> No. She I think people like that thrive. >> They have to >> cuz it's exhilarating to them, I think.
00:32:33
>> Yeah. I think they're those kind of people that live live for drama. They live on the edge. It's their lifeblood.
00:32:39
It drains me of everything. >> I was just going to say it drains the [ __ ] out of me. So, even while she was
00:32:44
living well off of Ken's millions, it seems like she just couldn't help but commit crime. If, like I just said, only
00:32:50
for the thrill. >> She's loved to crime. >> She loves crimeing. >> She loves crimeing. Her last name is
00:32:56
literally crimes, but it should be crimes. Crimes. >> So, in the winter of 1980, just a few
00:33:02
months before she got married to Ken, Santa was at the Town and Country uh lounge in the Mayflower Hotel in
00:33:08
Washington DC. just like a little lounge area where she was drinking. >> Dranking and eating maybe. Well,
00:33:14
probably not. When it looked like she was getting ready to leave though, one of the patrons, Reena Beichi,
00:33:19
>> Reena Beachi, >> Reena Beichi sounds like a nice lady. >> And you know what? She is in a lounge.
00:33:23
>> Yeah, absolutely. Reena in a beachy. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Well, Reena Beichi watched with
00:33:29
astonishment as Santa threw her own mink coat over the coat of another woman who
00:33:35
wasn't paying attention. And then Santa casually stood up, put both coats on, and walked out of the restaurant. So,
00:33:43
her first son, Kent, confirmed later, that's who she was. >> That is who she was.
00:33:48
>> I love that Kent is just like, "Yeah, he's like, I don't know. She just did that." It reminds me of, again, a quick
00:33:52
little tangent, but >> we are tangenty today, but it's okay. >> I know. I am. Go watch on Netflix Man on
00:33:57
the Inside. It's Ted Dansen. >> Real funny. Two seasons, I think. Very funny. >> They also have like a con woman in the
00:34:06
second season. that is reminding me very much of this like would pull something off really.
00:34:12
>> I got to watch that. You've been telling me that >> it's one of those shows that is
00:34:14
delightful. Yeah. Like I'm telling you if you need a little We could all use a little pickme up right now. A little
00:34:20
little fluffiness, a little whimsy. Man on the inside with Ted Dansen. I [ __ ] love Ted Danc. Don't tell me anything
00:34:28
about Ted Dansen. I just love him. >> Oh my god. Don't >> um just don't I don't want to know
00:34:31
anything. Uh to me, he's awesome. Uh, and it's a great show. So, I highly recommend it if you need like a little
00:34:39
thing. This just reminded me of it because it's very con artist. >> I'm gonna watch that.
00:34:43
>> Yeah. >> So, back to this. It didn't take long for the DC police to catch up with Santa
00:34:47
and she was charged with grand lararseny because mink coats are very expensive. >> Yeah, that's a big deal.
00:34:51
>> But when the trial day came, she was just nowhere to be found. >> Yeah. She said, "That's not for me."
00:34:56
>> She said, "No, >> no, that wasn't part of it." >> No, she's she's a lounge girl. She's not
00:34:59
a trial girl. So the prosecutor proceeded with the case anyway, trying her in absentia and she was found
00:35:05
guilty. >> Oops. >> Which al it doesn't happen that often that they try you in absentia, which is
00:35:10
a fun thing to say. >> That is really ready. >> Absentia. >> Fun. >> I do like that.
00:35:15
>> So she later appealed the conviction arguing that her constitutional rights were violated when they tried her in
00:35:20
absentia. >> But the lower court's conviction was upheld. They said, you know, they said
00:35:24
you they said you lararsenied. >> You did grandly. >> You lararsenied a lot. So, this was the
00:35:29
first of many times that she would be caught committing crimes, but she always seemed to have a way of getting out of
00:35:34
taking responsibility until the slavery charge came in 1985. >> What? >> Yeah, she was charged with slavery.
00:35:45
>> What? >> In 1985? >> I >> the year of Big Red. >> There's no That is the year of me, but
00:35:50
my goodness, I haven't I don't know what the [ __ ] is happening in this case. I've never heard
00:35:56
of it in my entire life. It goes crazy. >> I did not look at this before beforehand. That just took me
00:36:02
>> Yeah, >> that just took me out. >> I figured I would kind of just deliver it to you in in a normal tone.
00:36:07
>> You laid down that really get your reaction. >> What the [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Oh, let's tell me about this. Jesus.
00:36:14
>> I will. So, in the mid 1980s, Santa and Ken, they were living a good life in a
00:36:19
large house in La Hoya, California. They had a staff of housekeepers to handle most of the responsibilities around the
00:36:25
home. At first, Santa treated the house housekeeping staff very well. Kind almost like family. Almost like what we
00:36:32
were saying with Irene earlier. >> Yeah. >> But the difference was as soon as they
00:36:36
challenged Santa in any way, they found themselves on her bad side. >> Ew. >> Kent said it is just like everything
00:36:43
else in her life. Elevated, elevated, elevated. And so the maids then became the enemy in the house.
00:36:48
>> Oh, she's such an [ __ ] >> She sucks. >> That's so gross. So now no longer interested in treating them well, Santa
00:36:54
became abusive towards the housekeepers. So singling out one housekeeper who often traveled with them from California
00:37:01
to their house in Hawaii. According to the criminal complaint, Santa was physically and verbally abusive towards
00:37:07
this woman who alleged that Santa and Ken locked her in her room and she alleged quote she was not allowed to use
00:37:14
a telephone or write to anyone and was never paid for her services. They literally forced her to work for them,
00:37:23
locked her up when she wasn't working, and let her out to work, and that's it. And treated her horribly and physically
00:37:31
abused her as well. >> What a [ __ ] pair of monsters. >> Yes. So, as a result, Santa and her
00:37:38
husband were charged with violating federal ponage, which is forced labor and slavery laws.
00:37:44
>> Wow. >> And they were indicted. >> She's a real piece of [ __ ] She's a big old piece of [ __ ]
00:37:49
>> Damn. >> So, the indictments were the first charges of slavery to be pursued in the
00:37:54
United States for many, many, many, many, many years. >> Yeah, I bet. >> And the evidence was damning.
00:38:00
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Ken accepted a plea deal and he was given a short uh short prison sentence
00:38:04
and a large fine. >> Dick. >> But Santa, on the other hand, flatly rejected the accusation and actually
00:38:10
tried to make herself the victim in all of it. >> Oh, shut the [ __ ] up. >> She said she took the case to trial,
00:38:16
which is just insane. like I don't know why you would ever do that. You're literally accused of slavery.
00:38:20
>> And she insisted that she was being framed. >> The jury did not buy that and she was
00:38:25
ultimately found guilty but only spent 3 years in federal prison. >> 3 years for a slavery charge.
00:38:31
>> Yes. >> Wow. >> Next level. >> We're killing it. >> We're a broken system. We're a broken
00:38:37
system. >> We remain killing it. >> Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] >> So the conviction and the jail sentence
00:38:42
you would think would be a wakeup call for Santa. setting her on a path toward a more
00:38:47
responsible, maybe law-abiding life. >> N she's a total [ __ ] >> Yeah, as anybody could have guessed, it
00:38:53
didn't seem like that was a life she wanted. And she was a [ __ ] Actually, after being released from jail in the
00:38:57
late 1980s, it seemed that not only did she not have any intention to stop committing crimes, but she actually had
00:39:04
bigger and more elaborate schemes in mind. >> Huh. She was like, I only got 3 years
00:39:08
for slavery, so I feel like I could [ __ ] around some more. >> Yeah. I mean, that'll make you think
00:39:11
you're invincible, I guess. >> Yeah. So, after returning to their house in my birthplace, Honolulu
00:39:17
>> in 1989, things went back to normal for a little bit, but it wasn't long before
00:39:20
Santa got back to her old ways. The Kim's family, including Kent, were all living in Las Vegas when they got a call
00:39:27
from John, who was the caretaker of the house in Hawaii. According to John, the house had caught fire and was reduced to
00:39:34
ashes at a surprisingly short amount of time. "Oh, no." >> Kent said, her oldest son said, "I knew
00:39:40
what happened. I didn't know the specifics, but there was no doubt in my mind. >> Damn. In fact, when he heard about the
00:39:45
news at the house, he started thinking back to his own father and all of those times that Edward Walker's construction
00:39:52
projects had burned in quote unquote mysterious circumstances. >> He's like, "Huh?"
00:39:56
>> He's like, "That's weird. Fire seems to follow my mom wherever she goes." >> So, a few weeks after the house burned
00:40:02
down, Santa obviously filed an insurance claim and she waited for her money to come in,
00:40:06
>> of course. But by that time, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, ATF,
00:40:10
had taken an interest in the case, and they started investigating what they believed to be arson. A short time
00:40:16
later, Elmer Holgrren, who was an unemployed lawyer and associate of Santa and Ken's, confessed to setting the
00:40:23
fire. >> Oh, wow. >> He never mentioned Santa or Ken in his confession, but many, many people
00:40:29
suspected that Santa had somehow convinced him to set the fire. >> A month later, another fire occurred.
00:40:35
this time in Elmer Homegrren's office where he had papers stored that could implicate Santa in the arson. Uhoh.
00:40:42
Elmer still hadn't identified Santa as the one who paid him to burn the house. But she assumed that it was only a
00:40:48
matter of time before he did. And that type of accusation obviously would have landed her back in jail.
00:40:53
>> Where she belongs where she belongs. But she's not going to have that. >> No, of course not. And just as she
00:40:58
expected he would, Elmer Homegrren did make a drunken confession to a friend in early '91 that it was he who had burned
00:41:04
the house in Hawaii, but that he had done it for $3,000 given to him by Santa Kims.
00:41:11
>> But what he probably didn't expect was for his friend to immediately relay that
00:41:14
information to ATF agents working on the case. And in exchange for a reduced sentence, he agreed to wear a wire and
00:41:21
try to get Santa to confess to their arrangement. >> Damn. But the most federal agents ever
00:41:26
got was a short message from Elmer who told them that the plan would have to be put on hold. He couldn't handle it.
00:41:33
>> Several months later in August, Elmer told his family he was going on vacation
00:41:37
to Costa Rica with Santa and Ken Kimes. >> And that was >> Don't do that. >> That was the last time anybody ever saw
00:41:43
him alive again. >> I know. Yeah. According to Kent Walker, during a drunken fight with Kenny, his
00:41:49
younger brother, Santa, and himself, his brother admitted that their mother had murdered Elmer Homegrren.
00:41:55
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Kenny allow allegedly shouted, "She killed that guy. She was sitting in the
00:41:59
back seat and she hit him with a hammer." >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. Several years later in 2000, Kenny
00:42:05
would repeat that confession, this time to federal authorities, but no charges were ever brought against Santa or
00:42:11
Kenny. And Elmer's body has never been found. Holy [ __ ] Yeah, that's diabolical. Yeah. So, in the years that
00:42:20
followed, Santa and Ken, her Ken Senior, the husband, seemed to be laying low and
00:42:25
avoiding the attention of law enforcement somehow. But then out of the blue in 1994, poor Kent, got a call from
00:42:32
his mother who was in bad about Kent. >> I do too, but there's good news. >> Can I feel bad about Kent, then?
00:42:38
>> You could totally feel bad. I've been wanting to say that, but I was like, "What if he's terrible, too?"
00:42:42
>> No, he's great. As far as I Well, I don't actually know anything about him, but from what I've seen, he's great. And
00:42:48
there's like a nice little sprinkle in here that I'm glad he Okay, >> we'll get there.
00:42:52
>> So, but before that, in 1994, he gets this call from his mom. She's hysterical, and she keeps repeating over
00:42:57
and over, they won't fix him. And then she just hung up. That's it. Which is like, maybe relay information.
00:43:02
>> Yeah. Ken had no idea what she was talking about, but eventually he learned that his mother was referring to Ken
00:43:08
Senior, who had just died from a brain aneurysm. >> Oh man. >> Yeah. I would feel a little bit worse if
00:43:14
he wasn't guilty of slavery. >> He wasn't charged with slavery. >> Yeah, exactly. So, charged and
00:43:19
convicted. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. >> So, Ken's death sent Santa into a
00:43:24
downward spiral if she wasn't already in one. And that caused her to become more
00:43:28
erratic than ever. And not only because her husband and literal partner in crime
00:43:32
was gone, but also because when he died, he left her with nothing. Wow. He left her with nothing.
00:43:43
>> I mean, if you're both like that, how are you expecting that you have an actual partner?
00:43:49
>> Well, that person's whole life is lying and conning just like yours. They're going to lie and con you, too. Well, and
00:43:56
the thing was it wasn't even necessarily a lion and con situation. They'd been together for 20 years, and by that
00:44:02
point, they'd blown through almost everything he had. >> Damn. >> Aside from a few non-liquid assets that
00:44:08
weren't easy to access. >> Wow. >> So, she didn't have any accounts of her own at that time. So, she really had
00:44:14
nothing. >> So, her frantic desperation started to scare the [ __ ] out of Kent, her oldest
00:44:20
son. And he eventually made the decision to step away from his family and build a
00:44:24
healthier life for himself. >> Kent. Yeah, Kent. >> Yeah, >> Kent. I'm proud of you, Kent.
00:44:34
>> Yeah, I am, too. >> You know what? I know nothing about you, but I'm proud of you for that.
00:44:39
>> But I'm very proud of you for that. And I hope you built a very healthy life for
00:44:42
yourself and you're happy and thriving. >> And it's not easy to walk away from people. Like, it's really not. But
00:44:48
that's necessary sometimes. >> That's healthy. And well, that's healthiness and wellness.
00:44:52
>> It is. You know, >> it's healthy and wealthy, I thought is what you were going to say. I was going
00:44:55
to say that. >> It is healthy and wealthy. >> Good job, Kent. I'm very proud of him.
00:44:59
What a boundary. >> Yeah, we love a boundary king. And in the '9s, establishing a boundary. Tough.
00:45:04
>> Yeah. I' never heard of it. >> Tough. >> Or even in the early. >> No. So, of course, with Ken Kim's dead
00:45:09
and Kent having become estranged from his mother and his brother, that left Kenny alone to deal with his dangerous
00:45:15
and increasingly desperate mother. Yes. Who proved that she would stop at nothing to get what she wanted.
00:45:21
>> Over the next two years, over the course of the next two years, Santa combed all
00:45:25
of Ken's accounts, looking for whatever money was left after his death. In September of 1996, Santa and Kenny, so
00:45:32
that her son, were in the Bahamas staying at the house that they owned in Nassau. Um, and they had dinner with
00:45:38
48-year-old Sed Bal Ahmed. I looked up that pronunciation. I so hope I'm saying it correctly. That's what the internet
00:45:44
told me to say. >> Say was an executive at the first Cayman Bank where Ken had stashed some of his
00:45:51
money. Santa invited Ahmed to dinner in the hopes that she could convince him to
00:45:55
release $850,000 that was in Ken's account to her, despite the fact that she was not a
00:46:02
signatory on the account. Damn. Yeah. So, in the weeks leading up to that night, she had sent several faxes and
00:46:08
other documents over to the bank with Ken's forge signature demanding that the money be sent to various American
00:46:14
addresses. But all of the requests were obviously unsuccessful because they were
00:46:18
like, "That man is dead. He didn't sign. >> We can't do that." Now, in addition to
00:46:23
his executive role at the bank, Ahmed was also the bank's auditor. So, he would have been made aware of any
00:46:29
potential fraud or attempts at fraud. So obviously he suspected Santa Kims of trying to fraudulent fraudulently access
00:46:35
the money in the account. >> He's like, "This is kind of my thing." >> And he's like, "Yeah, I guess I'll have
00:46:38
dinner with you, but like I know what you're up to. >> I know you're a fraudster."
00:46:42
>> Yeah. And those suspicions of fraud would have been confirmed quickly once the bank learned that Ken Kims, like I
00:46:47
just said, was in fact dead. >> Yeah. >> On the night of September 4th, Santa and
00:46:51
Kenny met with Ahmed for dinner at the Androsia, which is a restaurant in Nassau. Whatever happened during that
00:46:57
dinner is unknown, but the staff at the restaurant recalled seeing Santa and Kenny leave with their dinner guest a
00:47:03
little after 10 p.m. >> and say Bal Ahmed was never seen again. >> What the [ __ ] This is crazy.
00:47:11
>> It's diabolical. I had no idea how this was. >> A few days later, police in the Bahamas
00:47:17
opened an investigation into Ahmed's disappearance. So, not only were the mother and son the last people to be
00:47:22
seen with the missing man, but a hotel employee at the Rison where Ahmed had been staying reported two people
00:47:29
matching the Ka's description attempting to get access to Ahmed's room a few days
00:47:35
before he disappeared. >> They were planning this like well ahead of time. >> Malice a forethought, my darling.
00:47:42
>> Yeah, very much. Despite their strong suspicions that they were responsible for Ahmed's disappearance, they weren't
00:47:47
ever able to come up with anything strong enough to make an arrest. >> And it was only after Santa and Kenny
00:47:53
were arrested on those several other crimes and facing the death penalty >> that Kenny Kimes confessed that he had
00:48:00
drugged Ahmed that night, drowned him in the bathtub, and dumped his body in the
00:48:04
ocean all at Santa's request. Holy [ __ ] And it's like, that's not going to get
00:48:10
you the money either. So what's the [ __ ] point? >> What the [ __ ] >> You're just diabolical.
00:48:15
>> You're just evil. >> So after the murder of Sed Balamemed, Santa spent months trying to
00:48:20
fraudulently access her husband's accounts, demanding that the money be sent to some random address in the US.
00:48:26
But obviously she was unsuccessful because people are smarter than that. According to Kent Walker, after Ahmed
00:48:31
disappeared, the first Cayman bank was being liquidated. He said in part because of Ahmed's disappearance.
00:48:37
Because he was such a big part of the bank auditor. >> Yeah. That meant that by killing say Bal
00:48:42
Ahmed, Santa had made the goal of getting Ken's money impossible. She [ __ ] herself.
00:48:47
>> And honestly, I hope that that that was his that's his like final [ __ ] you. And
00:48:52
I'm glad >> truly. And I hope she thought of it every day for the rest of her life.
00:48:56
>> So by the fall of 1997, Santa and Kenny were basically broke living in a rundown
00:49:01
one-bedroom apartment in Fort Lauderdale. >> Oops. >> And that's when she came up with her
00:49:05
latest scheme. Several years earlier before Ken's death, Santa and Ken had transferred one of their properties to
00:49:12
their friend Dave Casden in order to hide it from federal authorities. Ken and Casden had been friends since the
00:49:18
70s and he had always been willing to help whenever they found themselves in a jam. He was a nice enough guy.
00:49:23
>> Yeah. >> In '98, Santa remembered that remembered that house, which imagine just having a
00:49:29
home that you forgot about. >> She's like, "We're really in a pinch. What do we do? What do we Oh,
00:49:35
>> I have that house. got that house. >> So, she came up with a scheme to get some quick cash after convincing a
00:49:41
notary to forge Casden's signature on a loan document, which like, who are you, brother?
00:49:47
>> Seriously. >> She took out a loan for $280,000 in Dave Casden's name using the house
00:49:53
that they' transferred as collateral. >> Holy [ __ ] >> The loan went through and Santa got the
00:49:58
money. But in late January, Dave Casden also learned of the scheme when he got a
00:50:03
notice in the mail informing him that he'd taken out a second mortgage on a home he didn't even think he still
00:50:08
owned. >> Wow. >> Yeah. This is some rich people [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So, when Casden called the bank to
00:50:14
report the fraud, it was already too late. Santa had already cashed the check and moved the funds into an offshore
00:50:19
bank account. I'm exhausted just listening to this. I don't know how people live like this.
00:50:23
>> I don't either. >> I really don't. I also don't know how people keep track of all this [ __ ]
00:50:26
>> because I also I I'm I'm allergic to admin so I can't imagine this. >> I don't even like the admin that I have
00:50:34
to do. >> Yeah, this is so much admin. >> Yeah, it's a lot >> and it's just a lot of it's a lot of
00:50:38
talking to people. It's a lot of convincing people. It's a lot of like Oh >> yeah,
00:50:42
>> I'm I'm tired. >> Pretty terrible. Pretty [ __ ] terrible. >> So it turned out that the loan scheme
00:50:47
was just the first step in Santa's process. >> Lord. A few weeks later, Dave Casdane
00:50:51
got a call informing him that his home in Las Vegas had burned down. >> My goodness, the arson.
00:50:56
>> The arson is everywhere. In the days that followed, it was discovered that Santa had taken out an insurance claim
00:51:02
on that house. And by the time Casden learned all the details, she'd already made off with the money.
00:51:07
>> My she's she's diabolical. >> She's lava. So when Dave Casden started making reports to the authorities about
00:51:14
who he thought was responsible for all the fraud, he started getting letters and faxes from Santa. In a fax from late
00:51:21
February 1998, she wrote, "I'll give you 5 days to stop all these lies. You know,
00:51:25
you endorsed the loan. Why are you doing this?" >> Wow. >> So she's literally like
00:51:30
>> gaslighting himself. >> Gaslighting him. She thought that establishing a paper trail would help
00:51:34
support her claim that she had nothing to do with the fraud and she was being framed.
00:51:38
>> Yeah. But at some point, she obviously realized that wasn't going to work, and
00:51:42
she came up with another plan. 2 weeks after her last facts to Dave Casden, his body was discovered in a dumpster at the
00:51:49
Los Angeles International Airport. He'd been shot in the back of the head. This lady needs to be stopped. She sure does.
00:51:58
The coroner quickly identified him and made a a homicide investigation was opened and that uh was led by LAPD
00:52:04
detective Bill Cox. It didn't take long for Cox and his partner to learn that Casden had recently been the victim of
00:52:11
financial fraud. And according to his daughter, somebody had been harassing him in the weeks leading up to his
00:52:16
death. The daughter told them that her father was being harassed by Santa C. And she suspected that Kimmes had
00:52:22
something to do with the death. So the detectives went to speak with Santa, but they missed her by just a few hours.
00:52:29
>> Oh, of course. By that time, she and Kenny had fled to Los Angeles in that Lincoln Town Car that they picked up in
00:52:35
Utah several weeks earlier. Remember, paying with a bad check. >> Wow. So, for months, detectives in LA
00:52:42
dug into Santa Kim's criminal history and reached out to any of her known contacts in the hope that somebody might
00:52:48
know where she had gone, but they just kept coming up empty. Then in July, when Irene disappeared, detective Bill Cox
00:52:56
got a call from a detective in New York informing him that Santa had been arrested there and she and her son were
00:53:02
suspected of murdering Irene Silverman. >> So we're way we went on a big old >> roundabout roundabout and we're all the
00:53:10
way back. >> Yep. >> So when Santa and Kenny were arrested outside the Hilton Hotel in Manhattan,
00:53:15
it had been on suspicion of check fraud in Utah. But what investigators found in
00:53:19
their hotel room implied that something much larger was going on. In a bag, detectives found Irene Silverman's house
00:53:26
keys, her passport, her checkbook, her social security card, and countless other personal documents.
00:53:34
>> When detectives found the Lincoln Town car 2 days earlier, they also found more
00:53:38
damning evidence. They found several automatic pistols and ammunition, 10 different wigs, the sedative uh
00:53:46
flunatrazipam and boxes of documents related to their business associates including Elmer
00:53:54
Holgrren, Dave Casden, and say Balal Ahmed. They also >> wild. >> That's not even it. They also discovered
00:54:02
eight micro cassettes of recordings of telephone conversations between Irene and a woman who would eventually be
00:54:09
identified as Santa C. >> Holy [ __ ] >> So they literally just had like like the
00:54:13
smoking gun basically and everything. In one of the conversations, Santa posed as
00:54:17
a manager of a Las Vegas casino and was trying to persuade Irene to share her social security number in order for the
00:54:24
casino to finalize details of a free trip that she had won. I the Jen Shaw of it all. I just can't I
00:54:32
can't imagine living life like this. I don't understand this. >> And targeting an elderly woman, an
00:54:37
elderly socialite. Like, what the [ __ ] is wrong with you? >> [ __ ] >> I mean, she's already been convicted of
00:54:42
slavery, so we know that there's a lot wrong with her. >> She has nothing inside of her.
00:54:45
>> So, in the months that followed their arrest, investigators worked tirelessly
00:54:48
to rebuild Santa's extensive criminal history, which must have been exhausting because that included at that point
00:54:55
arson, fraud, slavery. at least three suspected murders. And the murders stretched across the US and into the
00:55:02
Caribbean. >> My god. >> They also started digging into Kenny's history. And in doing that, they found
00:55:09
that he was a young man who from a very early age had been shaped and molded into exactly what his mom wanted him to
00:55:15
be. >> So disgusting. >> An accomplice, not a son. >> In addition to the crimes that he was
00:55:20
believed to have committed with his mom, he'd also been arrested for domestic violence and assault. He had beat up one
00:55:26
of his former girlfriends and another student when he was briefly in college. >> Ew. Disgusting.
00:55:31
>> Yeah, he's gross. >> Disgusting. >> Literally. >> So, the case of Irene Silverman and
00:55:36
Santa and Kenny Kimes quickly became a national sensation, of course. The press dug up Santa's old nickname, which was
00:55:42
the dragon lady. Yep. >> Because of her association with arson, of course. >> But most were more fond of the new
00:55:48
moniker that they'd given the pair. Mommy and Clyde. Mommy and Clyde is the perfect way to describe this.
00:55:54
>> It's also diabolical. >> It's very diabolical. >> When I first read that though, I was in.
00:55:59
Yeah, >> that makes you just want to know everything. >> What? >> Yeah, I love a moniker.
00:56:03
>> Yeah. >> So, the first big break in the case came in late July when investigators found a
00:56:07
notorized deed in Santa's possession, which seemed to indicate that Irene transferred ownership of her townhouse
00:56:13
to Santa and Kenny >> at a value of $390,000. I bet that was less than 10% of its
00:56:20
value. >> Wow. >> No. >> Good try. >> And despite the compelling evidence though, Sonda and Kenny both maintained
00:56:26
they had nothing to do with Irene's disappearance. >> You lie. >> We just have her checkbook, her
00:56:31
passport, her social security card. >> Recordings of us trying to fraud her. >> Yeah. It's just we were doing that, but
00:56:39
we didn't kill her. >> Yeah. I don't even know her. >> Oh, okay. For the prosecutors, the
00:56:42
biggest problem wasn't that they maintained their innocence. It was the fact that they still hadn't found Irene
00:56:46
Silverman. They didn't have a body. And at that time she obviously was assumed to be dead. Despite the lack of a body
00:56:52
though, District Attorney Robert Morgan Thao decided to move forward with the case. And in December of 1998, Santa and
00:56:59
Kenny Kims were indicted for murder on purely circumstantial evidence. >> Morgan Tho said, "The mere fact you
00:57:06
don't have a body doesn't give somebody a walk. All the facts show that the murder was committed." Yeah. Which is
00:57:11
very true. >> Where is she? So, when the trial finally arrived in the spring of 2000, it was
00:57:15
exactly as sensational and chaotic as everybody expected. Before both sides had even selected the jury, Santa had to
00:57:23
be ordered by the judge to stop speaking to the media after she continuously reached out to members of the press to
00:57:28
give interviews. >> That checks. >> She was also caught passing a note to New York Times journalist David Rhoden
00:57:34
Court. And the note said, "The deed is real. The notary is liable and lying. They know where she is." girl, you're
00:57:40
doing the most. >> And then that that wasn't even her doing the most. That was just the beginning of
00:57:46
her crazy ass behavior. >> She's already doing the most. >> In late April, after the judge
00:57:50
repeatedly told her lawyer to stop a certain line of questioning, Santa became irate and started yelling at the
00:57:56
judge, "Your honor, how can we have fairness?" And then she went on to compare the trial to the Salem witch
00:58:04
trials. and then told the judge that she was quote murdering the Constitution. >> Shut the [ __ ] up.
00:58:15
>> This [ __ ] went nuts. >> I hope someone just said, "Shut the [ __ ] up." >> Can you imagine being accused of
00:58:21
murdering the Constitution? >> You know what? Get a life. >> Get a life. >> Get a life.
00:58:26
>> So throughout the trial, the prosecutor called over a hundred witnesses, all of
00:58:31
whom spoke to the criminality of Santa and Kenny. >> Mommy and Clyde. >> Mommy and Clyde. and presented a ton of
00:58:36
evidence that established a direct connection to Irene Silverman. The only thing that they couldn't get around was
00:58:41
the fact that there still was no body and technically no conclusive proof of murder. But in his closing statement,
00:58:48
defense attorney Michael Hardy reminded the jury of that very thing. He said there's no body, no witnesses, there's
00:58:54
no proof of any murder at all. >> Oh yeah. So on May 16th, the jury retired for deliberation and when they
00:59:01
returned 2 days later, they found both defendants guilty. >> Good. I was going to say if they get
00:59:06
off, I'm going to riot in the streets. >> Yeah. No, they were both found guilty not just of the murder of Irene
00:59:11
Silverman, but on over a hundred other charges related to fraud, larseny, and kidnapping, among others.
00:59:19
>> Yeah. That next month, they went before a judge to be sentenced. And the judge
00:59:24
referred to Santa as a sociopath of unremitting malevolence. >> Yes. And her son is a vacuous dupe who
00:59:31
had evolved into a remorseless predator under his mother's influence. I have never heard a better description of two
00:59:38
people in my entire life. >> Vacuous dupe goes crazy. >> No notes. >> Obsessed. >> No notes.
00:59:43
>> You're a sociopath of unremitting malevolence. >> An a vacuous dupe and a remorseless
00:59:48
predator. obsessed. >> Just >> chef's kiss. >> Yeah. >> When asked if they had anything to say
00:59:54
on their own behalf, Santa spoke up for the both of them, and she said, "All of our precious civil and constitutional
00:59:59
rights were trampled, much like the witch hunts of old Salem." >> Shut your mouth. The police planted and
01:00:05
planted and planted evidence to fool the jury. No one has been told the truth in
01:00:10
this case. >> You didn't That's not even a good like, you know, correlation. >> There's What are you talking about?
01:00:17
>> Please. Like, what are you talking about? nothing to do with the Salem trial. Shut up. Shut up.
01:00:20
>> So when basically the judge felt the same way and they were like, "Okay, are you done speaking?" And she was like,
01:00:24
"I'm all done." And he said, "Okay, cool. I" or she said, "I sentence you to 120 years in prison."
01:00:30
>> And Kenny was sentenced to 126 years in prison. >> That's awesome. I just love how it was
01:00:36
like six more years. >> He was like, "You done here? You done here?" Okay. So, in the wake of their
01:00:39
sentencing, Santa and Kenny, of course, did not just fade into obscurity. Of course. still facing potential murder
01:00:44
charges in California, Nevada, and Nassau, Kenny felt that it was his duty to make sure his mommy was spared for
01:00:52
the wor from the worst of the consequences, >> dude. >> So, in October, during an interview with
01:00:56
Court TV reporter Maria Zone, Kenny took her hostage by holding a ballpoint pen to her throat.
01:01:04
>> What? While holding her hostage, he demanded his mother not be extradited to Los Angeles, where they both faced the
01:01:11
death penalty for the murder of Dave Casden. Fortunately, officers were able to create a distraction that allowed
01:01:17
them to safely remove uh Maria's own from the room, and Kenny's attempts to sail to save his mommy failed.
01:01:23
>> He is so pathetic. >> It's really pathetic. >> Like, ew, yucky. A few months later,
01:01:29
both Santa and Kenny were extradited to Los Angeles and charged with Dave Casden's murder. Now facing the death
01:01:35
penalty, Kenny accepted a plea deal from the prosecutor where he would confess to
01:01:39
the murders in exchange for taking both death penalty sentences off the table. Wow. After pleading guilty, he confessed
01:01:46
to the murders of Sed Balamemed, David Casden, and Irene Silverman. And as part of the deal, he was required to detail
01:01:54
all of the crimes for investigators. So according to Kenny, after they failed to
01:01:59
get Irene's money through deception, they resorted to violence. On the afternoon of July 5th, they went to the
01:02:05
townhouse where he and Santa tased Irene, an 84 year old woman, and then Kenny strangled her.
01:02:12
>> Oh, poor Irene. >> Once she was dead, they put her body in several garbage bags and put her in a
01:02:18
dumpster in Hoboken, New Jersey. To this day, her remains have never been found.
01:02:23
>> Wow. And I just want everybody to remember how I described Irene for you. Like the lengths that she went to to
01:02:31
make other people feel special and all of the connections that that woman had generous,
01:02:36
>> how generous she was, how talented, and they wrapped her body up and threw it in
01:02:40
a dumpster in >> Hoboken. >> Like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you? >> All for money.
01:02:46
>> Yeah, >> that's it. >> Mhm. Which meanwhile, if he had been nice to her and actually engraved
01:02:52
himself, he probably would have got money or something, anything. >> Mhm. >> So, in 2004, they were both found guilty
01:02:59
of Dave Casden's murder, but no charges have ever been brought up in the other two cases. After their convictions,
01:03:05
Santa returned to New York to continue serving her life sentence for the murder of Irene Silverman. And on May 19th,
01:03:12
2014, she died of natural causes at Bedford Hills Correction Facility for Women. She was 79.
01:03:19
It's >> pretty old. >> I feel like that's kind of young to die of natural causes. 79
01:03:23
>> in prison though. >> Yeah, in prison. That's true. >> Uh Kenny Kims remains incarcerated at
01:03:28
the Richard J. Dunovan Correctional Facility in San Diego, California. And that is the case of Mommy and Clyde.
01:03:37
Wow. jampacked. That was a non-stop thrill ride, >> wasn't it? >> That was I'm shook.
01:03:45
>> It was insane. >> And what kills me is like the amount of people that they just disposed of like
01:03:51
they were nothing >> when they didn't need them anymore or when they didn't give them what they
01:03:55
wanted. >> Exactly. >> Like that's so disgusting. It's such like predatory inhuman behavior.
01:04:01
>> And obviously Kenny is a piece of [ __ ] but it's really sad that he was just he
01:04:06
was molded to be what he was. That's the thing that he was just like he didn't have a choice.
01:04:09
>> You feel bad for the child version of him >> and then he became an adult. >> When you become an adult, you make your
01:04:14
own choices. Exactly. You don't choose as a child, but as an adult, you make a choice. You
01:04:19
>> very much. And he made a bad choice. >> I think we need a fun fact. >> Yeah, we do.
01:04:23
>> Do you want to hear the fun fact I found? >> I really do. >> The world's oldest dog lived to be 29
01:04:29
and 1/2 years old. >> I want to have that dog. >> And their name was Bluey. >> Bluey.
01:04:36
>> Bluey. Oh, >> yep. >> Yeah, that is a fun story. >> Louis the Australian cattle dog survived
01:04:42
to the ripe old age of 29 and a half. >> I want my dogs to live to 29 and >> Sydney to Blanch and Dolores will live
01:04:48
to be 100. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I will take no further questions >> with that. We hope you keep listening
01:04:54
>> and we hope you >> keep it weird and definitely so weird that you spend the rest of your life with your dog.
01:05:00
>> Yeah, cuz they're going to live forever. Do it. Bye. >> Not so weird as Santa though. No.