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Hey weirdos, I'm Alina. >> I'm Ash. >> And this is Morbid. >> [music] >> It's Morbid [music] and we got big news
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for you, baby. >> We do. We got new merch. >> Yay! >> And we actually like it. We love this
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merch. >> I'm so excited. >> [laughter] >> We were >> so part of this merch. >> We were part of it. We were included.
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They took all of our feedback. It was crazy. >> Yeah, it was awesome. >> We didn't have a lot of experiences like
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that. >> Yeah. >> But no specifics. Just no, you know. >> In general. >> We just had We really collabed.
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>> There's There's clothes, obviously. Like there's shirts, there's sweatshirts,
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phone >> cases that are really high quality, might I say. >> I have one on my phone currently.
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>> And yeah, I love that one. There's pillows. I love the pillows so much and everything. Like all the sweatshirts and
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the t-shirts. One of the things that we told them, we said we need these to be very soft, please.
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>> Yes, I want soft. >> And they're so soft. >> They are. >> So, you can go ahead and buy that on the
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SiriusXM store. It's literally siriusxmstore.com. Super simple. >> Yeah. >> And if you are an international
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listener, >> Lucky you. >> Lucky you. We one because we we envy you, but two because you can get our
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merch, too. >> Yeah. >> have to get it at a different store. It's podswag.com. >> Yeah.
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>> p o d s w a g.com. And it has all the same stuff. >> Yeah. >> Uh so, yeah. We got new merch.
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>> exciting. Will there be even more to come? >> Yeah, there's more to come. We're
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working on a couple things. >> It's the first little uh little drop. >> Yeah, there you go.
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>> Little drip drop. >> Drip drop. >> Raindrop. Drop [laughter] top. Morbid just released merch in their chop shop.
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>> [laughter] >> I I a lot. >> Thanks. >> [laughter] >> Mike on the ones and twos.
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>> Obsessed. >> Um and then we're obviously still going to be at Radio City >> Still.
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>> on June 27th. They haven't gotten rid of us, so they haven't decided that they
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wanted to put like an actual professional up there. [laughter] >> They're still allowing us to come.
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>> It's crazy. So get tickets to that. Uh get them on Ticketmaster, please, because that's the only place that we
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said, "Yes, that pricing sounds good." >> Yeah, anywhere else like boop, don't know.
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>> And Debbie's going to teach us a tap. >> Hell yeah. >> We actually need to order tap shoes.
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>> Yeah. And it's going to be a lot of fun. It's one night only. Get your tickets.
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>> Specialized merch. >> is it. >> Specialized merch for that night. Um it's going to be a lot of fun, too.
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We have a fun theme that we'll let you guys know about soon. >> Mhm. >> Um and yeah.
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>> Do it. >> I ordered a dress from a I won't say the site, but a sketchy site, and I just
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hoped for the best. >> Oh, no. >> I got it yesterday, and it has You know like the like like we both had them on
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our wedding dress, those like really pretty buttons? >> Yeah. >> It has those on the back
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and also the front. They weren't supposed to be on the front. >> [laughter] >> I said, "Who is responsible for this,
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and why did you send it to me?" >> control was not there. >> No, and the buttons are like not in a
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row. >> [laughter] >> I was like, "What the fuck?" >> Damn. >> Yeah, so that'll be going to savers.
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>> version. >> Yeah, I sure did. I was like it the dress looked great online, but I was
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like, "I've never bought from here before. Like should I try it?" >> will again.
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>> I will not. >> It's a Actually, it's a place you got something, though. >> Oh.
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>> That was great. So it must just be like a >> miss. >> luck of the draw, yeah.
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>> Yeah, some places be like that. >> They sure do. >> [laughter] >> You know. >> So now I have no idea what I'm wearing,
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because the other dress from a completely different website that I ordered, which I also won't name, came
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with like a chemical [ __ ] stain on it. It literally it was like tulle, and there was just like a hole in in the
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tulle. >> [clears throat and laughter] >> I hate that. >> was like weirdly frayed on the edges. I
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was like, >> What? >> Uh so I I got to find a reputable store. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, you do.
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>> Anybody want to dress us? >> [laughter] >> Yeah, there you go. >> Gucci, I'm looking at you.
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>> You're listening, right? The whole of Gucci. >> I have a couple sales associate friends.
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>> There you go. >> Party. >> Let's go. >> All right, do you have anything you want
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to talk about? >> Uh, you should pre-order The Butcher Legacy. >> It's coming out, too.
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>> coming out as well. >> And it That's That's like the countdown is on. >> Yeah, the countdown is on. And
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>> much the final countdown. >> It'll be out August 11th. Um, I you can pre-order on butcherlegacy.com. You can
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get it anywhere you would like. Uh, remember if you pre-order, sometimes you get it like a day early and [ __ ] Like
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it's it's a pretty fun little thing to pre-order cuz you get like some little perky perks that way. I saw people last
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time with the Butcher game. They're like, I got it a day early. So, >> that's fun.
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>> it before everybody else. >> fun to get things first. >> It is. There's like a fancy special
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edition that you can get. There's um I don't know if there's signed copies left, but I'm trying my hardest to make
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sure I can sign as many as humanly possible >> And who knows? Maybe she'll be at a
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place near you and like when you >> That's the thing. I will be going to some places. I'll let you know when we
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lock all those down, but I will be signing stuff. >> Hell yeah. >> Um, and trust me. I want to sign as many
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as I possibly can. >> Yeah. >> Much to the chagrin of anybody that's around me while I have to sign things.
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>> Not me. I don't care. [laughter] >> I was going to say cuz I think my husband's like, Jesus.
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>> I just open up the pages for you if I have to. >> Yeah, there you go. >> When we're at a place, I'm like, here
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you go. Sign here. >> Yeah, that's that's easy. That's easy. >> Uh, um but yeah, so I'll try to sign as
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many as humanly possible. >> Um, before we get into the show, too, we met a couple of you guys in Salem and
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you were so nice. >> Um, shout out to Kathy and her super cool husband. Uh, they bought us coffee.
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>> Um, they were amazing. >> so nice and they were having like a little staycation in Salem. I hope you
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guys had the best time. >> I loved them. >> And then we met this squad of sisters.
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>> god. >> Juliana and all your sisters. >> Yes. >> Uh, Katrina? Karina? >> Karina.
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>> Yep. Sorry, I'm bad with names. The baby. >> The baby who we're talking about. The
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baby. >> baby, but that was might [laughter] have been one of the cutest babies I've ever
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seen in my [ __ ] life. >> And the cutest dog. >> Oh my god. I think Was the dog Kato?
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>> Yes. >> I loved that dog. >> Oh, you were there You were all great. >> were just on a little sister trip. I
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thought that was so cute. >> Yeah. And then there was a guy on a trolley that was taking a tour of Salem
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and he leaned out the window and said, "Ash and Elena?" >> So shoutout to the guy on the trolley.
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>> to that guy cuz we didn't get to actually meet him, but we said, "Yeah!" We said, "Hey!"
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>> And then he kept going. >> But the bus kept moving. All right. So, that I think that's everything.
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>> Yeah. >> All right. >> Hell yeah. >> Um, I'm going to be talking to you about
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a killer dentist today. >> Let's go. >> I don't think that's a sentence I've ever uttered before.
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>> No. Definitely not. >> the story of Glennon Engleman, who I'd never heard of.
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>> Glennon? >> But a Glennon, I know. >> I like that name. >> I'm just calling him Glenn for short.
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>> Yeah. >> Cuz as you should. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Dave found this one and he said, "Do you
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want to do a story about a killer dentist?" And we said, "Yes." >> Hell yeah, Dave.
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>> All right. So, it's It starts on the night of December 17th, 1958. So way back.
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>> Oh, in the '50s. >> In the '50s, honey, but it it it rolls through time. >> Oh, it pops off.
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>> Yeah. So, 27-year-old James Bullock just left home. He was headed for a night
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class that he had at St. Louis University. I would love to do the whole St. Louis, St. Louis joke the whole way
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through, but I have to say it a lot of times and I did Google it and apparently locals to St. Louis say it like that.
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>> Okay. >> like when you say St. Louis. >> Okay. >> So, that's what I'm doing. If you happen
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to be a local in St. Louis that does like when people say St. Louis, I'm sorry, but you're not the majority and I
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can only strive to make so many people happy. >> Here's the thing, regional dialect is a
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thing. Yeah. Reminder. And then two, we literally cannot please everybody with certain pronunciations of certain
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places. >> so hard. >> No matter what we say, there is a subsection of people that get angry
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about the pronunciation. So, we just got to pick one and go with it. >> on several websites and it said say
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Saint Louis if you're talking to Saint Louis people. >> know what? There's bigger problems in
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the world bigger than Saint Louis or Saint Louis >> It's true. >> being pronounced one way or the other.
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>> It's true. >> reminder. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> So thank you for having my back on that. Yeah.
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>> there's bigger problems. >> So James was headed to his night class at Saint Louis University, but the next
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time anybody saw him, he was being chased through the city by an unidentified gunman.
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>> What the [ __ ] That escalated so quickly. >> Wildly, exponentially. >> Yeah, it's about to escalate even more
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because a little past 7:30 p.m., Paulie Tullio was driving on Fine Arts Drive near the City Art Museum when he came
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upon a very unexpected sight in the middle of the road. Illuminated by his headlights, he said he saw a quote
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stockily built man wearing a brown hat and a dark topcoat standing over another man on the ground pointing a gun at him.
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>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. When the lights of the car crossed over the stocky man, he fled down a side
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street and just disappeared into the night. >> And this is 7:30 at night? >> Yes, a little past 7:30.
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So just as Tullio got out of the car, another passerby, Dan Holmes, stopped and both of them ran to see if they
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could help the man lying in the middle of the street. And when it was clear that he was badly injured, Dan ran to
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the Art Museum to find a guard to call the police. He was still breathing when he was discovered in the streets by the
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two drivers, but James Bullet couldn't speak and he died just as he was being loaded into the ambulance.
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>> He was young. >> Very young. Now as the closest officers to the scene when the call came in, detectives John
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Vining and Phil Dwyer were dispatched to the Art Museum and they were stunned by
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the condition of this victim. By the time they arrived, James was a bloody mess. He had two bullet holes in his
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head and one in his shoulder. And in addition to the two small caliber bullet wounds in his head, there were
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also six tiny wounds in his chest, which suggested that he'd been shot by a shotgun. Holy [ __ ] And it also looked
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like somebody had struck him with their car and run over both of his legs. >> god. Like talk about overkill. This poor
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man. >> A quick search of his body produced his wallet, which still had a $20 bill
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inside, and he was wearing his gold wedding ring. So the detectives were like, "Okay, this doesn't really seem
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like a robbery, but what the [ __ ] is this?" Now, just behind the art museum, they
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were able to locate his green Plymouth, and the driver's side door was still open, and the car was actually still
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running. Inside, they did find blood evidence, so that suggested that he had been shot one
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time inside the car and then was able to he got out on foot and ran in the direction of where he was found on the
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street. And there was literally a blood trail in the snow from the car to the road.
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>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. Other than the blood in the car and his body on the street though, there really
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didn't seem to be any additional evidence. And remember, this is the '50s, so like there's not a whole bunch that
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they're doing at that crime scene. >> But the most puzzling thing to the detectives were the three distinctly
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different injuries that he had suffered. Whoever shot him in the head and shoulder was obviously or at least most
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likely the same person who shot him in the chest, but they weren't sure yet if it was the same person that had run over
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his legs or if that happened afterwards and maybe it was an accident or something like that.
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>> So they hoped that his family could provide some insight into what had happened here, and they started with his
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wife of only 6 months, Ruth. >> Ugh. >> I know. Not wanting to shock her or imply
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anything super nefarious, they just said that James had been killed in an accident and they left out a lot of
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details. According to Ruth, he occasionally drove through Forest Park on his way to the
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university, so that's why he was in that area that night. But unfortunately, other than that, there wasn't a lot that
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she could tell them. So rather than subject her to the horrible state that her husband's body was in, the
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identification was done by James's aunt Geraldine, who had been taking care of him since he was young because both of
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his parents had died. >> Aw. >> It's such a tragic situation. >> And it's like which is worse?
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>> I know. Oh my goodness. Now the next morning when the news about the murder hit the papers, a man named
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Lester Rodwald came forward and he told police that he was the one who had run over James's legs accidentally.
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>> According to him, he said he was on his way home from classes at the university
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and as he drove around the corner, he saw a man standing in the road waving his arms. But by the time he processed
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what was happening, it was too late to hit the brakes and even though he tried to swerve to avoid hit avoid hitting
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James, he still fell and that was when Rodwald ran over his legs. >> Oh man. >> Yeah. It was clear that obviously he
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should have reported this when it happened. >> Uh yeah. You should always report that.
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>> Yeah, but it was an accident and he was ruled out as a suspect. >> Okay. >> Now uh Lewis Gola who had been driving a
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few yards behind Rodwald that evening confirmed the story too. He said he also saw that man waving his hands in what he
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thought was an attempt to flag somebody down. And he said he also caught a glimpse of
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a second man who either appeared to be with Bullock or chasing him. He wasn't quite sure.
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Which I was like I feel like that's a pretty clear distinction. >> Yeah. >> Uh but I don't know.
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He said the man was of average height. He was wearing an old trench coat and a hat and it was pretty difficult to
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describe his appearance other than that. >> Hm. >> As he passed the two men though, Gola
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said that it appeared the second man was saying something to James, but he couldn't make out the words and he did
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notice that the man had what looked like blood on his face and in his hand he was
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either holding a gun or a club. >> Wow. >> Most likely a gun given what we know.
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>> Yeah. >> Now aside from a few witnesses who had seen the second man, there was also a
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report of a strange uh strange incident that occurred shortly before James was killed. Jerry Wilmering who was parked
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by the school with his girlfriend just about two hours before the shooting, he told police that a man ran up to
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their car out of the darkness and out of just like nowhere and tried to get into
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the vehicle >> Oh [ __ ] that. >> shouting I'm not the one I'm not the one. Yeah, I'm not the one either.
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You're not getting in [clears throat] this car. >> That's what I said. >> [laughter]
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>> what Jerry told the man. He got out of the car and they kind of just like fought briefly before the man ended up
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running away and Jerry and his girlfriend just drove home like what the [ __ ] just [laughter] happened.
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>> Cuz Jerry the one. >> Jerry is not the one. >> Yeah. >> So with not much else to go on, the
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detectives turned their attention back to Ruth Bullock hoping that she might be able to fill in any kind of the missing
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information. And according to her, the couple had met about 9 months earlier. They dated for a pretty short
00:14:02
time, only 3 months and then they were married. But she insisted they had no marital
00:14:07
problems and they were absolutely happy, she said. She couldn't think of any reason why somebody would have wanted
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her husband dead and she couldn't think of anybody who he'd even fought with recently or had any kind of issue with
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at all. >> Damn. >> Now at first she seemed every bit the devastated new wife that you would
00:14:23
expect in this situation. >> Huh. >> But the more investigators spoke with her, the more complicated the entire
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picture of their life together got. >> Oh. >> Because it turned out that Ruth had
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previously been been married to Dr. Glenn Engelman, a dentist that she met while he was still in dental school.
00:14:40
They were married in 1953, but there were problems in that relationship from the start. The biggest thing being that
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I don't know why this is coming up so often in stories lately. Although he was a married adult man, he
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refused to move out of the home that he shared with his mother. >> Is this like an epidemic?
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>> I think it might be. It's like the male loneliness epidemic, but it's like the
00:15:00
male loves his mama too much epidemic. [laughter] >> Like what is going on? >> Now not only would he not move out of
00:15:05
the house that he shared with his mom, but he also wouldn't let Ruth move in with them.
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>> Okay. >> Which is weird. So instead, Ruth just like shared an apartment with several other young women
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who she was in dental school with and she and her husband would see each other at night and then just go their separate
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ways. >> My stomach >> Even your stomach was upset about [laughter] that. >> just was like, "No." [clears throat]
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"Absolutely not." >> Your stomach said, >> [laughter] >> So, after it I I After about 3 years, Ruth had had
00:15:38
enough of this, and >> Yeah. >> they divorced. Uh she insisted that they parted on good terms. In fact,
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>> Since nothing changed really. >> Yeah, honestly. >> We were living together to begin with."
00:15:48
>> Well, that's the thing. She actually still continued to see him pretty regularly.
00:15:52
>> Oh. >> He cleaned her teeth still. Sometimes he gave her money, and they occasionally
00:15:56
slept together. So, it was pretty much just like their marriage, but it just wasn't official
00:16:01
anymore. >> Okay. >> Um he also even cleaned her new husband's teeth just a few weeks
00:16:06
earlier. >> This is getting really weird. >> Imagine your new husband your your old
00:16:11
husband cleaning your new husband's teeth. Like, that's a little bit messy. >> No.
00:16:15
>> Kind of giving Reba. >> It >> You know what I mean? I love that show. >> Single mom who works too hard.
00:16:20
>> Loves her kids and never stops. >> [laughter] >> So, Ruth offered this information up
00:16:24
freely to the detectives. Like, she was like, "Yeah, I still slept with my ex-husband like from time to time. And
00:16:28
like, him and my new husband got along. Cleaned his teeth." >> Okay. >> I don't know if James knew that she was
00:16:33
still sleeping with her ex, but >> Yeah. >> Uh so, everything she told them was shocking and pretty scandalous. Even
00:16:40
now, that would be shocking and scandalous, but again, mind you, this is the 1950s.
00:16:44
>> Yeah. >> And even to hardened detectives, they were like, "What the [ __ ] is your
00:16:47
[laughter] arrangement?" >> They were like, "What's going on?" >> But, she took a polygraph exam, and she
00:16:52
passed it. So, they were like, "Okay." >> Those are scientific, so >> Yeah, back then they were like, "Oh,
00:16:58
shit." >> They were like, "Oh, yeah, that's it." >> That's it." So, under the circumstances, they
00:17:02
thought it was worthwhile to track down Glenn Engelman for an interview. >> I would say so.
00:17:06
>> Yeah, cuz I mean, he's still intimately involved with Ruth even after their divorce. Maybe he wanted to get rid of
00:17:11
her new husband and rekindle their romance. >> Yeah, so he could continue living at
00:17:15
mom's house and date his wife. >> Maybe he wanted to change that up a little, or who knows. Unfortunately,
00:17:21
though, when they did catch up with him, he would not talk to them. No. Yeah. Uh
00:17:25
at a later corner >> said no. >> His mommy probably did say no. I actually don't really know anything
00:17:29
about his mommy, but other than two small children who are disappointed. [laughter]
00:17:34
>> I know enough. >> Well, at a later corner in quest, he said, "As a result of advice I have been
00:17:38
given by my counsel, I feel I may incriminate myself." >> Oof. >> Joe's like, "Why?"
00:17:44
>> I'm like, "Wow, that's >> It's not guilty talk at all." Yeah. >> So, that made him look pretty [ __ ]
00:17:49
suspicious, but >> Yeah. >> apparently, he did have an alibi. >> Well, [ __ ] >> Thomas Johnson, a friend of his, told
00:17:54
detectives that he visited Engelman at his office around 7:15 p.m. on the night of the murder. So, like
00:18:00
I mean, he was discovered right around that time James was. Yeah. >> He said the two had stayed at the office
00:18:06
until around 9:00 p.m. just chatting, and they also went to a local drugstore to get a drink, and they were seen by
00:18:11
the pharmacist at the store. >> And you got to trust Tommy Johnson. >> Yeah, of course. I I do trust Tommy
00:18:17
Johnson. >> But that being the case, it would have been impossible for Engelman to have
00:18:21
been involved in this murder, right? Right. So, it seemed that every time detectives thought that they found
00:18:26
something that might lead them to the killer, every lead was quickly falling apart. So, with no new evidence and no
00:18:31
new leads to work from, they went back to James's personal history, hoping maybe there was something there to point
00:18:37
to the killer. But once they started digging into his past, it was pretty clear that he wasn't somebody that you
00:18:42
would necessarily expect to get murdered. His supervisors at Union Electric described him as an industrious
00:18:48
and conscientious worker. They said he was moving ahead in his career quickly due to his hard work and drive to
00:18:53
succeed. >> Aw, James. >> And his friends were just as shocked. According to his friend Ed Lugie, there
00:18:59
was something about him that made you want to do your best to help him. >> Aw, that's heartbreaking.
00:19:04
>> He had such a tragic story. As a kid, he had already gone through a lot. First,
00:19:09
he experienced a physical disability that required multiple surgeries when he was young.
00:19:13
And then his parents were both killed in a tragic accident when he was a teenager. Yeah. So that along with his
00:19:19
personality just endeared him to people and everybody who knew him best was very, very protective of him.
00:19:26
>> Yeah. So there was absolutely nothing to go on here. So the case was in danger of
00:19:30
growing cold and being shelved when in 1959 a St. Louis lawyer contacted police and told them that he might know who
00:19:38
killed James Bullock. According to the lawyer, his client Thomas Murphy had confessed to him that he and another
00:19:44
man, Ivan Deckard, had been hired by and Ruth Bullock >> Oh, Ruth. >> to kill James.
00:19:52
>> Jesus. >> Now when detectives looked into Murphy and Deckard's backgrounds, it did turn
00:19:56
out that both of them had been in prison for murder and they were only recently paroled when James Bullock was killed.
00:20:02
>> Yikes. >> Yeah. In an interview with investigators, Murphy said that he'd just been paroled on December 1st, 1958
00:20:09
when an acquaintance asked him whether he would be interested in taking a hit job.
00:20:13
Fresh out of prison. >> got out. >> And he said, "Yeah." >> Yeah. >> And soon he was put in touch with Glenn
00:20:19
Engelman and his ex-wife who offered uh $12,500 which would be about 150k today >> Whoa.
00:20:25
>> for the murder and they all worked out the details. So the story definitely it seemed
00:20:30
plausible and detectives did even manage to verify some of the details that were
00:20:34
provided like having met with Ruth and Engelman in certain locations to discuss the plan.
00:20:39
>> Blake. >> They had also always suspected though that Engelman was involved in the murder
00:20:43
but he had that alibi that ruled him out as the killer. So this new version of events did make sense. They were like,
00:20:48
"Okay, this is how that could have worked out." >> how he was involved. >> But there was a problem. Murphy changed
00:20:53
his account of things not that long after his first confession. Literally just days later he said that sure I was
00:21:00
involved in the conspiracy but I didn't do the actual killing and I'm not sure who did.
00:21:04
>> Oh, there you go. >> It's like, pull it back. >> What? >> Pull it back down. >> Ivan Decker, the man who he originally
00:21:10
said he did everything with, was just as unreliable and his details changed all the time, too. Now, the other issue was
00:21:16
that by the time investigators had caught up with Ivan Decker, the second man involved, he was already in jail for
00:21:21
a robbery where two police officers had been shot. >> My god. [clears throat] >> And Ivan's partner in the robbery had
00:21:26
also been killed. >> Holy [ __ ] >> So, he was facing very serious charges for the robbery and the shootings, and
00:21:32
it was clear to the detectives that he was hoping to use what he knew about the James Bullet case as a bargaining chip
00:21:38
>> Oh, >> a lighter sentence. So, it's all super messy now. >> Yeah. >> So, because of all the inconsistencies
00:21:43
and just the straight-up mess, they were looked at as unreliable witnesses, and the prosecutor declined
00:21:49
to bring the case to a grand jury. >> Oof. >> So, now with their best lead having
00:21:52
fallen apart and nothing new to go on, the detectives just had to shift their attention to more pressing matters.
00:21:59
Now, in the years after James's death, Ruth eventually collected a very large insurance payout from his life
00:22:04
insurance. And she kind of just went about her life. When the judge gave his ruling in the insurance case, he said,
00:22:09
"The death officially remains a mystery, and whether the mystery will be solved to the satisfaction of the state
00:22:14
criminal law is another mystery in and of itself." >> Well, then. >> He said "same mystery" again.
00:22:19
>> He said "mystery". >> Now, meanwhile, just continued growing his dental practice in St. Louis.
00:22:25
>> Oh, good. >> He got married a second time to a woman named Edna. >> All right.
00:22:28
>> They seemed to live a quiet life, but behind closed doors, everything was very
00:22:34
awful. He was having extramarital affairs, he would fly into violent rages at any kind of inconvenience, and he was
00:22:42
always directing his anger and his violence at Edna. Things finally came to a head in 1965
00:22:47
and the marriage broke down completely when Engelman literally threw her out of the house, like physically threw her out
00:22:53
of the >> his mom's house? >> Probably. Who Who even knows? >> like such a loser.
00:22:57
>> He is a loser. So, he physically threw her out of the house and then just tossed all her
00:23:02
luggage and everything that belonged to her out at her as she was just trying to
00:23:06
get out of there. Later, Edna would tell her brother that was just the last of many violent
00:23:11
altercations that she experienced with Glenn. And at one time, she said he even tried to kill her with an overdose of
00:23:16
barbiturates. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. Eventually, within a decade or so, the activities of Glenn would have be of
00:23:23
interest to a great many people. But until then, he was just another suspect in a case that sadly a lot of people had
00:23:29
forgotten about by then. But then, on the afternoon of September 5th, 1976, a woman named Carmen Holm and
00:23:37
her husband Peter, they were on their way to a car show in Pacific, Missouri, when at some point they stopped paying
00:23:42
attention and finally realized that they'd driven past their destination. According to Carmen, rather than just
00:23:47
turn around and go back, Peter said that he wanted to stop by a state park to check out some of the local caves.
00:23:53
So they parked their car and they started walking to the woods in the direction of the caves. They stopped
00:23:58
briefly just to talk at a little pond taking in the scenery, just, you know, having a nice little afternoon hike.
00:24:04
But then suddenly there was a loud bang and Peter fell to the ground bleeding out of absolutely nowhere.
00:24:09
>> What? >> So Carmen screamed and ran and back in the direction of the car. And a local
00:24:15
family heard her screaming and ran to help and they flagged down a car and somebody got the police. In her eventual
00:24:21
statement to the police, Carmen explained that she and her husband had been out for a walk, stopped briefly,
00:24:26
and Peter was suddenly shot. But she didn't see or hear anyone else around them at the time.
00:24:31
>> What? That's so scary. >> Yeah, like sniper kind of stuff. >> Yeah. >> By the time they made it to the
00:24:36
hospital, 26-year-old Peter was dead from a single gunshot wound. >> Holy [ __ ] that is young.
00:24:41
>> Yeah. Now back at the park, crime scene technicians searched around the woods
00:24:45
and found a 6-mm hunting rifle with a telescopic sight buried under a large pile of leaves just about 50 yards from
00:24:52
where Peter had been discovered. They found one spent cartridge on the ground and it had obviously been
00:24:59
discharged from the chamber. And the bullet itself had gone through Peter's body, so they didn't have that to match
00:25:04
with the gun, but the caliber matched the wound. So, it seemed that that was the rifle used. And the fact that there
00:25:09
was a rifle buried like 50 yards away. Yeah, exactly. So, in a press conference with
00:25:14
reporters, lead detective George Ice urged journalists not to jump to conclusions about the death. According
00:25:20
to Ice, there was a strong possibility that the shooting was accidental. He said, "For example, it could have
00:25:25
been a hunter who accidentally fired his weapon and then ran once he realized what he'd done."
00:25:29
>> Okay, I mean, that's valid. Cuz at first when I read that, I was like, "What the
00:25:32
what the [ __ ] are >> you talking about?" But then with that example, it's like, "Okay, maybe."
00:25:37
But still, he did encourage anybody who'd been in the area that day to contact police whether they had seen or
00:25:41
heard anything. He just wanted to hear from people in the area. Unfortunately, while several people did
00:25:46
come forward and they gave statements to the police, none of them had actually seen Peter get shot, and nobody had
00:25:52
really anything of value. >> Mhm. >> Peter's parents even offered a thousand-dollar reward for information
00:25:57
leading to the arrest, but the trail still went cold, and the case became inactive.
00:26:02
>> Now, if the case had happened in St. Louis, detectives might have noticed that there were some similar aspects to
00:26:07
the James Bullet case. Peter and his wife hadn't been married for very long when Peter was murdered. And Peter had
00:26:13
recently taken out a life insurance policy with much more coverage than most people his age.
00:26:18
>> Mhm. >> And his wife was the sole beneficiary. >> Oh, no. >> Yeah. But most importantly, just like
00:26:25
Ruth Bullock, Carmen Holm had a connection to Dr. Glenn Engelman. >> What are the odds?
00:26:30
>> Not only had she worked for him as a dental assistant, excuse me, in the recent past, but she had also known him
00:26:36
for decades, and her brother Nick was still very close friends with him. >> Oh, no.
00:26:41
>> Yeah. Now, unfortunately though, Peter Helm's death did not occur in St. Louis, so
00:26:46
investigators had no reason to suspect Carmen of her husband's death or a random dentist who lived 40 miles from
00:26:52
the crime scene. [clears throat] >> So, nobody challenged her when she filed paperwork for a claim on the insurance
00:26:57
policy, and just a few months after the death, she received $60,000, which today is about $350,000.
00:27:05
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. So, a little We're moving forward here. A little past 7:30 on November November
00:27:13
3rd, 1977, a Bell telephone operator got a call from a man who didn't give his name, and
00:27:18
she could barely understand him. As far as she could tell, the man and just needed an ambulance. She managed to get
00:27:24
the address before the man on the other end just dropped the phone, and the ambulance was
00:27:30
dispatched to the house of Arthur and Venita Gussewelle. When the ambulance arrived at the remote
00:27:35
farmhouse just outside of Edwardsville, it was clear that this was not an ordinary medical emergency. The front of
00:27:41
the house was completely dark, and the door was locked, so paramedics went around back, where they found the door
00:27:46
to the kitchen unlocked. Inside, laying face down on the floor, was 55-year-old Venita, and she was dead.
00:27:53
With three gunshot wounds to her head. >> What is going on? >> In the living room adjacent to the
00:27:58
kitchen, paramedics found her husband, 61-year-old Arthur, just sitting in his reclining chair.
00:28:04
>> Aw. >> He was bleeding heavily from a gunshot wound to the back of his head, but he
00:28:08
was still conscious, and seemed to be mumbling something softly. >> god. >> When the paramedics got close to check
00:28:14
his injuries, they heard him say, "I've been shot and robbed. I can't see. I've been shot and robbed. My wife has been
00:28:20
hurt. She needs an ambulance. I can't see. I need an ambulance." >> Oh, that's so sad.
00:28:26
>> And then he lost consciousness. >> Aw. >> And as he was carried out to the ambulance, he briefly regained
00:28:31
consciousness, though, and he muttered the word two over and over a few times before just passing out again.
00:28:38
>> Oh, man. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, by the time they made it to Anderson Hospital a short
00:28:42
time later, there was nothing that they could do to save Arthur, and he was pronounced dead at 9:30 p.m.
00:28:48
>> Oh, Arthur. >> I know. Now, when they arrived at the scene that night, investigators from the Illinois
00:28:53
Department of Law Enforcement suspected a robbery gone wrong. Arthur clearly said they'd been robbed, and from the
00:28:58
sound of it, there had been two men. That's kind of what they thought the two two two was.
00:29:02
>> Yeah. >> It also seemed that someone had torn through the house in a hurry, but the
00:29:07
longer that investigators were looking at the scene as a whole, the less sense that theory made.
00:29:11
>> Yeah. >> Detective Richard Beretta said, "Parts of the house were ransacked, but parts
00:29:15
weren't. That's an oddity." In fact, not only did it seem that nothing of significance was missing from
00:29:20
the house, but when Vernita's body was taken to the morgue, she was still wearing a ton of jewelry, including
00:29:25
rings and a watch. >> Giveaway. >> And her purse was lying in the hallway not far from her body, and everything
00:29:31
inside was still intact. >> Yeah, that's not a robbery. >> And there was also no sign of forced
00:29:36
entry. >> Oh. >> So, yeah. When the autopsy was conducted though, the coroner determined a small-caliber
00:29:41
weapon had been used in both of the murders, and the uh there were powder burns on the victim's that indicated
00:29:47
that the shooter obviously fired at very close range. The crime was not only extremely out of
00:29:52
the ordinary for the region, but it was also extremely brutal given the ages and
00:29:57
the personalities of both victims. >> Mhm. >> The secretary of their church, Mary uh
00:30:01
Jaegle, told reporters, "They were just lovely people. They didn't have any enemies. I'm sure they didn't."
00:30:06
>> Oh. >> And their neighbors echoed the same sentiment, with one saying, "There was
00:30:10
not anyone in the community who would say anything negative about them." >> Arthur and Vernita.
00:30:14
>> I know, don't they just sound so sweet? >> do. >> They're just like managing their farm
00:30:18
together. >> Yeah. >> Now, a search of the house and of the surrounding property again, didn't
00:30:23
really turn up anything useful in the investigation. There was no fingerprints and no other evidence found at the
00:30:28
scene. One of the neighbors, Clarence O'Brien, though, did tell detectives that his wife had seen a car uh car pull
00:30:34
up at the house around 6:00 p.m. and drive around the outbuildings in the back. But, he also said that Arthur and
00:30:40
Vernita's two sons, Richard and Ronald, came by pretty often to visit or help their parents, so they just thought it
00:30:45
was one of them just coming to stop by. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Right. In addition to everything
00:30:51
investigators were learning, they also found out that everyone who knew the couple knew they were unlikely targets
00:30:56
for a robbery because Arthur was known to be a successful farmer at the time, and he was one of the wealthier
00:31:01
residents in the area, but he paid for everything, even just small purchases, with checks, and he never had cash in
00:31:08
the house. And >> like you're not going to find anything. >> That's the thing, it was like well-known
00:31:11
amongst the community. Now, at the time, there was no way local investigators would have connected the
00:31:16
murders of Arthur and Vernita Gooswell to two other seemingly unrelated murders years earlier.
00:31:22
It also somehow didn't occur to any of them that the Gooswells' injuries resembled the execution-style killings
00:31:27
common in mob-related murders, like point-blank range back of the head. >> Yeah.
00:31:33
>> Those connections would come a lot later to everybody's shock and horror. But until then, the case was treated as
00:31:38
a straightforward, yet kind of pretty rare instance of a home invasion gone wrong.
00:31:42
>> Damn. >> Now, in hope of generating some leads, the Madison County Farm Bureau offered a
00:31:46
$5,000 reward for any information leading to the arrest of the killers. But other than some pranks from
00:31:53
true-blue [ __ ] >> believe we've always been this shitty as a species. >> Even back then.
00:31:58
>> can't believe it. We've just never got better. >> No, we just got a little different.
00:32:02
Exactly. Exactly. >> Different methods. >> Other than that, the the reward did not
00:32:07
produce any concrete leads. So, while detectives on the Gooswell case spun their wheels, just desperately
00:32:12
trying to find anything that would lead them to the killer, the Gooswells' estate, which was valued at roughly half
00:32:17
a million dollars back then, which today would be about 2.5 million, it got tied
00:32:22
up in probate court for a little over a year before it was finally everything was finally split evenly between Richard
00:32:28
and Ronald Gooswell in late 1978. >> Okay. >> Now, by the time their estate was awarded to their two children,
00:32:35
the murder case had been shelved, and detectives on the case shifted their attention again to more present active
00:32:40
cases. But then in April 7th 1979, just 1 year later, the case was unexpectedly revived when one of Arthur and Vernita's
00:32:49
children, 33-year-old Ronald, was found dead in the backseat of his own car in East St. Louis.
00:32:56
>> Oh, we're back in St. Louis. >> On the evening of April 4th, police were called to the parking lot of Coleman's
00:33:01
Plaza in St. Louis for a report of a suspicious vehicle that had been in the lot for several days. Now, when they
00:33:08
arrived and they checked out the car, they found Ronald slumped in the backseat with a huge bullet hole in his
00:33:13
chest. >> Upon examination, the coroner determined that his body had been in the lot for at
00:33:18
least several days. And while the gunshot wound in his chest was the cause of death, he also suffered
00:33:23
a skull fracture from a blunt force injury. And there were also several scratches
00:33:28
along his back, which the coroner believed had been caused by the body being dragged.
00:33:32
>> What? >> Yeah. Now, given the fact that his parents had also been murdered, Ronald's murder was
00:33:38
immediately assumed to be linked. At the time of his death, the investigation into his parents' death,
00:33:44
like I said, was at a standstill after everybody ran out of leads. So, the working theory was that Arthur and his
00:33:49
wife were mistaken for another unrelated man, Richard Gusewell, like unrelated, who investigators believed was targeted
00:33:56
by the mafia after he testified in a case involving mining rights. So, that's what they originally thought before
00:34:02
Ronald was killed. >> Damn. >> Because it seemed mistaken identity in that case seemed plausible.
00:34:08
>> Yeah. >> But now Ronald's murder called that into question because obviously one case of
00:34:12
mistaken identity is possible. >> But two is like >> Well, and like why would somebody go
00:34:16
back and kill the previous mistaken victim's son? It doesn't make sense. >> According to his wife, Barbara, Ronald
00:34:24
was last seen by his coworkers at the Amoco oil refinery on March 31st around 11:30 p.m. They apparently chatted
00:34:31
briefly in the locker room as Ronald was headed home, but when he still hadn't returned home 4 hours later, Barbara
00:34:37
reported him missing. When his body was discovered, his wallet also appeared to be missing, but there was no other
00:34:43
evidence collected at the scene and there was not a single witness. >> Oh, [ __ ]
00:34:47
>> Now, later that month, a man named Andre Jones confessed to killing Ronald Gusewelle.
00:34:52
>> Oh. >> He had been arrested and pleaded guilty to the murder of three people in uh in
00:34:56
East St. Louis and he was awaiting sentencing when he made his confession here. And he also confessed to the
00:35:01
brutal murder and robbery of a young couple earlier that same month. >> The [ __ ]
00:35:06
>> He was facing the death penalty in the robbery homicide and it's likely that he
00:35:10
offered up the other confessions to try to get a lighter sentence. >> Oh, okay. >> But just like in the other cases, if
00:35:16
detectives had been aware of the connections between the victims and a certain St. Louis dentist,
00:35:21
>> Oh my god. >> the murder of Ronald Gusewelle and his parents might have made a lot more
00:35:25
sense. But they had no way of knowing that Ronald's wife, Barbara, had known Glenn
00:35:31
for nearly 20 years. >> What is going on? >> And like the others, Engelman offered up
00:35:37
a way to help her get access to the Gusewelle's money a lot faster than just waiting for nature to take its course.
00:35:43
>> Ladies. >> They didn't know that. >> Oh, no. >> So, instead, detectives focused on Andre
00:35:48
Jones and started looking for evidence that confirmed his confession. Now, back to Glenn Engelman.
00:35:53
>> Yeah. >> By the late '70s, he was on his third marriage to Ruth Jolly and things were
00:35:58
starting to fall apart. Engelman was just as abusive to her as he had been to his previous wives and Ruth tried
00:36:04
several times to leave him, but he wouldn't agree to a divorce and at that time, it would have been pretty
00:36:09
impossible for her to strike out on her own and maintain the same life. And she had a young son as well. So, she
00:36:15
tried to stick with it, but sometimes her husband said things that absolutely terrified her.
00:36:20
He talked about killing people or having people killed. His ex-wife's new husband
00:36:24
outside the art museum in St. Louis, he said, "A man in the woods outside Pacific,
00:36:29
>> Ooh. >> and even three members of a family in Edwardsville." >> Ooh. >> Any of that sound familiar to you?
00:36:34
>> Sure does. >> The thing was though, these stories always seemed to involve women that
00:36:38
Glenn had been involved with romantically in his past, and Ruth started to wonder if he had maybe been
00:36:43
having an affair throughout their marriage or multiple affairs. >> Probably. >> But unfortunately, it was even worse. He
00:36:48
probably was having affairs, but I think that there was more to it. >> worse [ __ ]
00:36:52
>> Exactly. Now, in the late afternoon of January 14th, 1980, a woman named Sophie
00:36:57
Marie Bergera left her dental laboratory a little before 5:00 p.m. It was a pretty ordinary day as far as
00:37:03
anybody could tell, except this afternoon when she put her key in the ignition and turned it to start the car,
00:37:09
the car exploded into a ball of flames, instantly killing Sophie in the blast and shattering the windows of the
00:37:15
surrounding buildings. >> Oh. >> When emergency responders arrived a short time later, they there was no
00:37:21
attempt made to save Sophie because according to Sergeant Thomas Casey of the bomb squad, the lower part of her
00:37:27
anatomy was destroyed. >> Holy [ __ ] >> killed instantly. Her death was a surprise to everybody
00:37:33
she knew to say the absolute least, but when detectives arrived at the lab that afternoon to start their investigation,
00:37:41
eerily, it seemed like Sophie had expected something like this might happen to her.
00:37:45
>> What? >> Sitting by the phone in her office, detectives found a pad with the police
00:37:50
emergency number written down on it, and call logs would later reveal that she called that number earlier in the day,
00:37:56
but had hung up. >> Ooh. >> Yeah. Also, her son Frederick told investigators that his mother had said
00:38:02
something a few days earlier indicating she thought she might die in an explosion.
00:38:07
>> What the [ __ ] >> In fact, in March of the previous year, police had been called to her home when
00:38:12
she found a bag full of dynamite and an electric detonator beside her home. >> What?
00:38:18
>> Earlier that day, a local boy had seen the bag and opened it up to look inside.
00:38:22
And when he didn't find anything that was interested in it interested him, he walked away. And he left the bag open,
00:38:29
which luckily exposed it to rain. So, when the bag did explode a short time later, it just scorched the outside of
00:38:34
the garage, but it didn't It could have absolutely blew up the house. >> Absolutely.
00:38:38
>> Now, it was quickly determined that the bomb placed in Sophie's car was very similar to the one that had been found
00:38:44
at her home just a year earlier. And that both were created by the same person. And both devices demonstrated a
00:38:50
quote, "apparent high level of skill." >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. So, when detectives looked back at the
00:38:56
earlier investigation into the bomb at the house, they concluded that Sophie may have known her killer and maybe
00:39:01
hadn't been entirely forthcoming in previous interviews. Thomas Casey said, "Personally, I
00:39:06
thought there was more she could reveal. A lot of innuendos were made on her part, but we were unable to substantiate
00:39:12
a lot of them. I think out of fear. I think she was scared. Now, as you might imagine, she had a
00:39:19
connection to a certain dentist in the area. >> say. >> At the time of her death, she was
00:39:24
involved in a lawsuit with local dentist Glenn Engelman. >> Oh, Jesus. >> He owed her a little over $14,000 for
00:39:32
work that was performed by her lab, and he was refusing to pay it. >> He's such a piece of [ __ ]
00:39:37
>> He really is. Also, look up a picture. >> Oh, yeah. >> On the night of her murder, detectives
00:39:41
interviewed Engelman for more than 3 hours, but told reporters that they weren't seeking warrants for his arrest
00:39:46
at that time. They did indicate that he refused to take a polygraph, though, and
00:39:51
that they were planning on following up with him in the days that followed. It doesn't he look exactly like you
00:39:55
thought? >> No, actually. >> Worse? >> Way worse. >> Really? >> Because I'm thinking like he's getting
00:40:02
all these women to do things and like having affairs and marrying several women.
00:40:07
>> Yeah. >> What? What? >> Yeah, I think money had a lot to do with a lot of this.
00:40:14
>> Wow. >> I think lot of it was just money, money, money. >> Yeah. >> Now, as far as Sophie's son was
00:40:19
concerned, his mother's death likely had something to do with the lawsuit against
00:40:22
Engelman, which was scheduled to be heard in county circuit court days after Sophie was killed.
00:40:28
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Now, not long after the murder of Sophie Barrera, Ruth Jolly, Glenn's wife at the
00:40:34
time, finally came to the conclusion that all of the things her husband had told her about the previous murders were
00:40:39
very likely true. So, in late January, after becoming frightened for not only her own safety,
00:40:44
but her son's, Ruth went to the police and she told them about everything she suspected her husband to be involved in.
00:40:51
>> Not only did she think Glenn murdered Sophie, but she also believed that he had killed Peter Holm and several other
00:40:57
people. >> He is so scary. >> He's terrifying. Now, at first, federal investigators were kind of skeptical of
00:41:03
her story, but at the same time, they had to admit she did seem to know a lot of details, a lot more than the ordinary
00:41:10
person. So, they asked her if she would be willing to wear a wire and record her
00:41:14
conversations with her husband. And she agreed. Which like >> Yeah. >> That's so brave.
00:41:21
>> to say that yeah, that really is. >> a scary situation to get yourself into or to have to be involved in.
00:41:26
Now, to investigators' surprise, the recordings not only implicated uh Glenn Engelman in the murder of Sophie
00:41:32
Barrera, but also in the murders of Peter Holm, the three members of the Gusubal family, and the 1963 death of a
00:41:41
man named Eric Frey, whose death had previously been ruled accidental. >> What? >> other death here.
00:41:48
>> other person. >> In one recording, Engelman can be heard saying, "I'm $20,000 ahead. Fortuitous
00:41:54
event with Barrera dying." Referring to him not having to pay Lapta anymore. >> Fortuitous event
00:42:00
>> with Barrera dying. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Now, in another conversation recorded just a few days later, he was heard
00:42:07
openly discussing the death of Peter Holm. On the recording, he doesn't just implicate himself, but all also Peter's
00:42:13
wife, Carmen. I'm glad she got connected finally. >> Yeah. >> Ruth later clarified that Glenn had
00:42:19
conspired with Carmen and her brother, Nick, to kill Peter for insurance money. >> Ew.
00:42:24
>> Ruth told investigators Carmen was going to give Glenn Engelman $20,000 for his
00:42:28
help. >> This is so gross. >> is, cuz it's all just about money. >> Yeah. >> Now, in time, the recorded conversations
00:42:35
between Ruth and Glenn would verify nearly every single detail of Ruth's original story.
00:42:41
>> Wow. >> Just like he had done in the murder of Peter Holm, Glenn Engelman had conspired
00:42:45
with Barbara Boyle in the murder of Arthur, Vernita, and Ronald Gusewelle also she could get her hands on the
00:42:50
inheritance. >> Wow. She had an entire family killed? >> She did. >> Yep. In order for the money to make its
00:42:58
way to Ronald, Arthur and Vernita needed to die first. >> Holy [ __ ] >> And as far as murder-for-hire schemes
00:43:03
went, it was remarkably elaborate and unfolded over much more time than things usually did. But in the end, it paid off
00:43:10
because Barbara inherited more than $500,000, which today would be 2.2 million. >> Wow, what a nasty [ __ ]
00:43:17
>> Right. So, to investigators on the Sophie Barrera case, not only were the recordings incredible, but they also
00:43:23
seemed to close several previously unsolved murders in various parts of Missouri. The only question remaining
00:43:28
was, why would a successful dentist who never appeared to be in need of money willingly and eagerly participate in
00:43:35
multiple murders? >> Yeah. >> Now, based on >> Like, why would you want to be involved
00:43:39
in that? But based on the recordings and testimony from Ruth in mid-February 1980, federal agents were able to
00:43:45
finally get an arrest for Glenn Engelman on charges of murdering just Sophie Barrera and Peter Holm. By that time, he
00:43:52
was very suspicious that investigators were on to him, especially for the murder of Sophie, and they didn't want
00:43:57
to give him any opportunity to run. Now, at the same time, they also arrested one
00:44:02
of his co-conspirators in the Barrera killing, a a named Robert Handy, who was a former neighbor of Glenn's in the '60s
00:44:09
and known to police for multiple prior counterfeiting arrests, just like a local con.
00:44:14
>> Why are you living these lives? >> Who knows? As detectives continued matching the details of Ruth Jolly's
00:44:19
statement and the recordings to the unsolved murders, things finally started to fall into place. So, get ready to
00:44:25
solve this giant puzzle at this point. >> go. >> So, Glenn Engelman was Ruth Bullock's
00:44:31
ex-husband, the original Ruth. >> Yeah. >> And the two were still having that sexual relationship when James Bullock
00:44:36
was murdered in 1958 and Ruth was awarded the insurance payout. Eric Frey, one murder that we hadn't talked about
00:44:43
yet because they just discovered that he was involved. He owned a drag strip with
00:44:48
Glenn Engelman at the time of his death, which was originally thought to be an accidental explosion in a well at the
00:44:54
strip in 1963. >> Stop. >> Eric's wife received a huge insurance payout for the accident and it was later
00:45:01
discovered that she shared that payout with Glenn Engelman. >> What the [ __ ] >> Now, at the time of Eric Frey's death,
00:45:07
Nick Miranda worked at that same drag strip and his sister, Carmen, >> Oh. >> would later work for Glenn Engelman as a
00:45:15
dental assistant before leaving the job and marrying Peter Holm. >> Wow. >> In every single case, pretty much, Engel
00:45:21
had a direct connection to the wives of the victims and it would turn out benefited financially from the deaths.
00:45:27
They would always split the insurance payout. >> So, was her name Carmen Miranda?
00:45:31
>> It was. >> That's a famous singer. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Sorry about that. That just I I I had to
00:45:35
double-check that to make sure I wasn't crazy for thinking >> name, yeah. She was Carmen Holm. Yeah.
00:45:39
>> That's crazy. >> Before she killed her husband or after she killed her husband.
00:45:43
The only outlier in that respect, like of him knowing all the wives and benefiting from the insurance payout,
00:45:47
was Sophie Barrera, but obviously in that case, his death was essentially wiped away. He didn't have to go to
00:45:52
court. So, on March 15th, 1980, Glenn Engelman Robert Handy were indicted on capital
00:45:58
murder charges in the bombing death of Sophie uh, Sophie Barrera. First-degree murder for the shooting of Peter Helm,
00:46:03
uh, Holm, excuse me, and 16 counts of mail and wire fraud related to all the money received from Peter Holm's wife,
00:46:10
Carmen. >> Holy [ __ ] >> At the time of the indictment, Missouri's death penalty was on hold,
00:46:15
uh, pending uh, revisions. So, the maximum penalty for the Holm's murder, uh, for Holm's murder, excuse me, was
00:46:21
life in prison. But, the Sophie Barrera case, on the other hand, was a federal charge,
00:46:25
>> Yeah. >> and the maximum penalty for capital murder was death, which the federal
00:46:29
prosecutor fully intended to pursue. >> Yeah. >> Now, Engelman pleaded not guilty to the
00:46:34
charges and went to trial in the fall of 1980. Unfortunately for him, the evidence
00:46:39
against him, especially the records made by his wife, >> Yeah. >> without his knowledge,
00:46:44
>> Ruth. >> and the eventual testimony of Carmen Holm, who testified against him,
00:46:48
>> What? >> all particularly damning. I She had to to get her own ass out of it.
00:46:53
Now, on September 17th, he was found guilty of the murder of Peter Holm and sentenced to 30 years in prison. And a
00:46:58
month later, he was found guilty of the Sophie Barrera murder and sentenced to 30 years with an additional 20 for
00:47:04
various other charges. So, that [ __ ] was going to spend forever in prison. >> But, he was still facing a potential
00:47:11
trial for the murders of Arthur, Vernita, and Ronald Gusewelle, and a possible death sentence if he lost that
00:47:17
trial. He eventually decided not to take the risk, and in 1985, he just pleaded guilty to all three of those murder, uh,
00:47:24
murders, excuse me, and he was given three life sentences. >> Damn. >> Now, the previous year, federal
00:47:30
prosecutors arrested Ronald Gusewelle's wife, Barbara Boyle, just days before she and her boyfriend were planning to
00:47:36
flee the country. >> Oh, man, the timing. >> She went to trial and was ultimately
00:47:42
found guilty of conspiring in the death of her husband. >> Hey. >> But, the jury determined there was
00:47:47
insufficient evidence to convict her of the deaths of Arthur and Vernita. >> Wow.
00:47:51
>> She did, however, serve 25 years in prison, but was paroled in 2009. >> Damn.
00:47:56
>> Yeah. So, Glennon Engelman obviously appealed to his guilty verdicts. They always do. Uh specifically in the
00:48:01
Barrera and the Hall murder cases, but the higher courts upheld the lower courts' rulings, luckily. Unfortunately,
00:48:07
while Detective Strongly and uh suspected Angleman of being the shooter in the James Bullet case, the District
00:48:13
Attorney in 1985 didn't feel that there was enough evidence to charge him and bring him to trial.
00:48:17
>> Come on. >> I know. They They just didn't think that they would win. But, he did spend the
00:48:21
rest of his life in prison. He died on March 3rd, 1999 in the infirmary of the Jefferson City Correctional Center,
00:48:28
where he had at the time been receiving treatment for advanced complications from diabetes.
00:48:33
>> Yikes. >> Now, as for why he participated in and even arranged so many murders, the
00:48:38
answer was simple. He was a psychopath who frequently confessed to enjoying killing.
00:48:43
>> I was That had to have been the only answer because there was really no >> It was money, and he enjoyed it.
00:48:48
>> money. >> So, he just wanted more. Like, he was a greedy [ __ ] and he just liked killing
00:48:53
people. >> doing this. >> Former St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter Bill Bryan said, "He had no conscience
00:48:58
when it came to killing. He said once, 'It takes a certain kind of person to be able to kill another human being.' It
00:49:03
always seemed to me that he got some pleasure out of the planning and carrying out of it." So, he just liked
00:49:08
the entire like start-to-finish planning it, actually going forward with it. >> And what's crazy to me is he was able to
00:49:16
find so many, especially so many women >> Yeah. >> that were also completely lacking any kind of
00:49:24
conscience. >> That's the thing. >> Like, how do you find that many people that are like on your level?
00:49:29
>> I think a lot of times, or I I will say like at least in one specific case, Carmen, she was so much younger than
00:49:35
him, and she had her brother and Glenn Angleman just like really hounding her to do this. And obviously, she's at like
00:49:43
just as culpable, but >> she was so young that I think she was very easily molded by these two people.
00:49:48
But then in the other cases, it's like these women just wanted money. >> Yeah, I just don't know I don't
00:49:54
understand how he was able to find so many people that were willing to to just be rotten with him. Like that's
00:50:02
just crazy. >> Well, it's sad, too, that a lot of them really weren't like they didn't they
00:50:06
didn't face any justice. You know what I mean? >> It's crazy. >> It really [clears throat] is a crazy,
00:50:11
complicated web. So, that is the wild case of Glennon Engelman, the killer dentist.
00:50:18
>> That's wild. >> Okay. >> Something that we didn't really touch on, imagine he was your dentist.
00:50:23
>> That's the other thing. Imagine you're just like, wait, >> [ __ ] >> Dr. Engelman?
00:50:28
>> Like it's just like, what? >> Cleaned my teeth last week. >> cleaned my teeth.
00:50:31
>> And then you got you got to find a new dentist who goes >> told me I need a root canal. What the
00:50:34
[ __ ] that about? >> he was one of those [ __ ] dentists that like shames you about like not
00:50:39
being super on top of your flossing or >> He made you feel like the biggest piece
00:50:44
of [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And he loved it. >> Loved it. [ __ ] that guy. >> Such a douchebag.
00:50:49
>> So gross. >> And it's just so sad how many young like obviously like so many people lost their
00:50:53
lives, but so many young people like 26 years old, 27 years old. >> Yeah. >> And then like Arthur and Vernita just
00:50:59
this sweet couple enjoying their farm together. >> And their son. >> Yeah. >> only one member left of their family
00:51:05
after that? >> Oh, I can't imagine how he felt. >> And to know that your sister-in-law just
00:51:09
literally took out your entire family >> for money? >> There wouldn't be a safe corner of this
00:51:14
earth, let me tell you, honey. >> Nope. >> Uh-uh. >> Nope. >> No. >> Damn. What a story.
00:51:20
>> What a story. Do you have a fun fact as a little palate cleanser for us? >> I actually do have a really fun fact.
00:51:26
>> all about it. >> Um it's illegal, it's straight-up forbidden in certain parts of Washington state to
00:51:33
kill Bigfoot. >> What? >> Yep. In 1969, uh I don't know if I'm going to say this
00:51:41
right, Skamania County? >> Okay. >> They passed an ordinance, which is uh number 69-01,
00:51:47
period. And this designated Bigfoot as an endangered species. And it made the killing of him, Bigfoot himself, big
00:51:56
feet Bigfoot big feet >> um or any Sasquatch, quote unquote, um a very uh serious crime, and you could be
00:52:04
punished for it. They cuz they have to protect public safety, and they have to protect Bigfoot.
00:52:09
>> Fair enough. >> penalty was downgraded from this, I guess. >> like that. >> In 1984, it it it was a felony.
00:52:16
>> It should be a sexual felony to kill a Bigfoot. >> Um it's a misdemeanor now. So, it's
00:52:22
>> to kill a being? >> think it should still be called a felony. >> Felony. That's felonious behavior.
00:52:26
>> it carries up to a $1,000 fine and or 1 year in jail. So, >> That's not enough. Make it a felony
00:52:32
again. >> Um I think it's pretty felonious to kill uh Bigfoot. >> Yeah, they're just existing.
00:52:37
>> That's just me. >> What did Bigfoot do to anybody? >> Yeah, don't Don't you dare kill a Bigfoot.
00:52:43
>> All Bigfoot is trying to do is avoid your ass. >> Yeah, he doesn't want to deal with us.
00:52:47
>> to He's He's the master of it, too. He has successfully avoided us for a long
00:52:53
time. >> has. >> Let him just continue to. >> Let him live. >> He's just got big feet. That's all he's
00:52:59
ever guilty of. >> boy. >> He's just a big boy. >> He's just vibing. >> Exactly.
00:53:04
>> live. >> Yeah. >> that that's against the law there. Where was that? >> Good for Washington state.
00:53:09
>> Yeah, good for you guys. >> girls. >> We should also consider making that a law.
00:53:13
>> Yeah, let's let's petition our local government. >> Let's do it. That's That's what's
00:53:16
important right now. >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] But let's let's do that one. Let's put
00:53:20
all our effort into that. >> All right, guys. We'll be busy doing that. So, in the meantime, we hope you
00:53:24
keep listening. >> And we hope you >> keep >> it weird, but not so weird that you
00:53:29
don't petition your local government to make the killing of Bigfoot a felony. Just kidding. [music] Just that.
00:53:35
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, there's nothing else to do other than that. >> Bye. >> Bye.
00:53:43
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]