00:00:06
hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is [Music] morbid this is morbid and we are in part
00:00:28
two of Fred and rosemary West oh God the fact that we're only on part two right now yeah just like all of the
00:00:36
information in part one like all of the deranged diabolical information yeah and
00:00:41
that's just one part y'all this is going to get so much worse one part y'all these are horrible people these are very
00:00:49
bad like these are very bad and I know I've said I said that in part one but it can't be stressed enough how bad this is
00:00:57
and again another blanket trigger warning for horrific sexual abuse and assault and
00:01:03
just really terrible things they're terrible this is terrible um I'm questioning myself for deciding to uh
00:01:13
agree to do this it takes an effect on your psyche it really does I'm not like like I've said this before about other
00:01:20
cases but I think this one is um a kin to the Myra hindley and Ian Brady one that like really took a little bit of a
00:01:29
toll this one's taking a toll and so I will be very glad when we wrap it up yeah but it's a story that needs to be
00:01:39
told because it's horrific and these people a lot of their victims not all of them but a lot of them came from really
00:01:48
dysfunctional trauma in their lives to begin with yeah and this is how they were taken out of the world it's that's
00:01:55
absolutely awful and that's what that's what kills me is it's like they they went through all this awful trauma they
00:02:01
were all they were young a lot of them you know what I mean and some of them were their own
00:02:06
children that that part is just I don't know why you have kids if you know that you're I mean probably because you know
00:02:15
you're that evil but exactly I it's just it's inconceivable the whole thing and then
00:02:21
the other thing is that these children and it's easy to forget when you're reading about all these horrible things
00:02:27
that are happening to these you know girls and young women who they're picking up that there's kids in the
00:02:33
house and they're seeing most of the things that are going on in this house like it's a that's the stuff that's like
00:02:41
all of it is really getting to me it's a tough one especially as a mother yeah there's just like a lot they're really
00:02:48
and they're just really brutal these are really really brutal awful people who did awful awful things um but again you
00:02:55
gota that's an important story to tell yeah absolutely so um I'm going this will be part two I'm
00:03:03
thinking this is going to end up being four parts because there's just a lot of information and as much as it's you know
00:03:11
there's a lot to digest in each part like this this one this part two is going to going to be heavy with
00:03:17
information and heavy with some gnarly stuff so I don't want to like you know just shove a lot of gnarly stuff into an
00:03:25
episode so that things get lost and things you know and I need a minute after like you know I mean so like I'm
00:03:32
going to try to break it I think into four just so we can have a second between each one um and also I think
00:03:38
afterwards I'll I'll try to do some kind of palette like actual palette cleanser
00:03:42
for me and for you yeah we need to do that cuz I'm certainly going to need it cuz this has been a tough one it really
00:03:48
is like the Ian and Myra one to me no it's very reminiscent of that absolutely yeah and after that one I really I
00:03:54
needed a minute so I think everybody did and I think that was another four parter
00:03:59
yeah I think it at Le four parts so um so yeah so we we're going to get through this and you know this is a very highly
00:04:07
requested case it is uh and it's also you know not from the United States so it's one of those that you you don't
00:04:15
know how many people know totally about it you might have heard the names but you don't know like the detail details I
00:04:21
didn't know a lot of these details so um the last we left on we were talking about um Fred finally meeting Rose yeah
00:04:32
and he was still with his first what were they ever married the Reena Reena were they married they were married yep
00:04:40
and he's still with her at this point yeah but it's like it's so tumultuous there's so much happening yeah but this
00:04:47
is really this is the moment is when he met Rose so let's talk about who Rose is
00:04:54
um you've heard her called by Rose and rosemary her full name is Rosemary Pauline lets and she was born in Northam
00:05:02
Devon England on November 29th 1953 her parents were Bill and Daisy lets interesting that her mother is also
00:05:10
named Daisy yeah that isting friend's mother's name is Daisy and it's just such a sweet name it is I know like you
00:05:16
never expect anything bad from a daisy no um she was apparent she was described as remarkably
00:05:24
unintelligent uh oh her siblings Nick nicknamed her doy Rosie oh uh yeah and her brother Andrew said
00:05:32
quote she was as thick as two planks oh so as thick as two planks not not rolling with a lot apparently um in
00:05:43
the years that followed their arrest like waited later down the line Rose's siblings also described her as
00:05:49
engagingly stupid dense and naive Jesus Oh and remarkably lazy so she's the total package there is
00:05:58
no denying that Rose early life was not great and she a lot of ridicule not a lot of affection not a lot of like you
00:06:06
know um she was rarely told anything positive about herself which as a child that sucks and it's just not conducive
00:06:16
to anybody growing up and being like a great person yeah it's just obviously it happens and like people find their way
00:06:22
out of that but starting off on a rough foot yeah and some people can make it out of that rough foot but some people
00:06:28
can't and if there's underlying [ __ ] there which I'm sure there is in this case then that's it's even worse yeah
00:06:35
now given that she had such a unfortunate upbringing and a really stunted social and intellectual
00:06:41
development to work with it's not really surprising that she would be drawn in to
00:06:45
a man like Fred West yeah in 1969 she was 15 years old super young yeah she was working at a t-shop around Bishop's
00:06:55
cleave not far from where Fred and Reno were living at the time one night while she was waiting for um the bus at the
00:07:01
bus stop after work Fred this was his thing he loved a bus stop loves a bus stop he approached her and began talking
00:07:08
to her just making small talk Rose kind of tried to ignore him at first because she's 15 and he's a disgusting creep
00:07:16
yeah so despite at the like despite later what happens where they end up having one of the most horrific and
00:07:25
weird relationships you will ever hear about at this moment Rose said thought he looked filthy he looked unkempt like
00:07:33
just really gross and he was being like lewd and lascivious like just wasn't anything to be attracted to spot the LIE
00:07:40
which and also it's like your first instinct is true yeah follow that gut feeling follow that but when you find
00:07:46
out who Rose is later you're like oh monster beet monster like just that she's horrific as well do you think that
00:07:57
she always had the potential to be horrific or do you think that this relationship brought it out in her I
00:08:01
think the relationship and obviously this is just me like speculating but I think the relationship definitely opened
00:08:09
the doors for her that this was okay behavior and like harvested somebody was saying yes and giving her somebody was
00:08:17
giving her encouragement positive but but I don't think it's that's not to take any
00:08:24
responsibility away from her because she enjoyed herself yeah and the it's like she did horrific [ __ ] she had a really
00:08:35
nasty nasty streak inside of her that I think was just it was brewing to something bad so that that leads you to
00:08:42
believe that it was always there and that like you said the door was just open I think monster just met monster
00:08:47
door was there and they were able to to kind of Run free together as monsters I think that's really what it comes down
00:08:54
to she's a she's young at this point so I don't even think she knew the depths of her own depravity but I think it was
00:09:02
in there and I think this older piece of [ __ ] was able to draw out of her but I
00:09:08
think it was there but who knows who knows if it would have been drawn out yeah other than that nobody can say you
00:09:15
know unfortunately um but yeah it was not a good first impression Rose would describe the exper experience to a
00:09:23
classmate actually and went as far as to say that Fred's Fred had a learing smile
00:09:29
and that it his smile was all Ganky and green green yeah Green yeah no mama now despite how she felt about him after
00:09:40
their first encounter Fred did win her over what yeah he repeatedly see like sought her out at the bus stop he went
00:09:49
back and back and back and he eventually won her over she really loved a determined man yeah so Rose had never
00:09:57
really had any close friends and was a customed to negative attention from her siblings and peers so the attention from
00:10:04
Fred who is an older man is probably being I mean he he was disgusting in the way that he would approach women
00:10:12
especially in young girls so I I think she just this is the only positive attention that she's getting so it's
00:10:19
like what she was used to she found it flattering um and there was something that and she described it and this is
00:10:27
like they're horrifying yeah of course she said that he was inherently sexual and that excited her which you look at
00:10:34
Fred West and you're like what and again Fred had gotten had been doing this for
00:10:39
a long time a long time since he was a teenager like he's been praying on young girls and he's been a predator for a
00:10:46
long time so he has gotten very good at grooming his young victims and honestly like and he he could say these horrible
00:10:55
things but he has groomed them into thinking this is flattery right but Rose was excited by it and actually appeared
00:11:02
kind of to welcome his crude behavior and language now and usually when Fred would do this he would come across a lot
00:11:10
of um resistance to that kind of behavior and that kind of language because a lot of young girls are like
00:11:15
you're gross get the [ __ ] away from me but he was like shocked by this now this
00:11:22
probably seemed as like a little game to Rose at first cuz she was very unhappy she had a lot of low self-esteem so this
00:11:29
is probably just like a fun little like he's paying attention to me yeah and later after the arrests Rose's brother
00:11:34
Andrew said quote her idea of being grownup was going out with someone a lot older and so he this makes sense right
00:11:41
um he said it didn't he was basically saying that it didn't even bother rose that Fred was married she knew that like
00:11:49
rose didn't care um but he also like so he drew her in with that like I'm married but then he said Reena had left
00:11:57
him with two small children and was working as a sex worker in Glasgow so he he was playing both sides
00:12:05
he Paints the picture that he wants people to see exactly but the truth was that at the time that he met her Reena
00:12:12
was in U was just visiting family in Glasgow like just away for a little B just like away visiting family and
00:12:20
apparently Rose at this time really loved kids which is really horrifying when you
00:12:26
think of later what happens and who she becomes but and and um Dave brought this
00:12:31
up and I thought it was a really good thing to point out she loved kids because she didn't have any
00:12:36
responsibility to kids yeah kids are great when you can when you're 15 and you get to play with a baby for a little
00:12:43
while you know what I mean like that's it but when she had to be in Char had sacrifice and had to be responsible
00:12:50
these children whole different story changed um but because Fred had Charmaine and anarie who were two young
00:12:57
girls that only made him more attractive to her cuz look he has two kids and I get to be like Play mom for a little
00:13:04
while and that's the thing their mom is still very much part of their life at this point so she gets to put that hat
00:13:09
on and take it off when she wants exactly she doesn't have to be and they're not even married at this point
00:13:15
either so she can come and go as she pleases exactly and play Mommy now in time Rose started lying to her parents
00:13:21
telling them that she had found work as a cleaner when in fact she was spending all her time with Fred mhm eventually
00:13:27
she introduced Fred Fred to her parents how that go he tried to be Charming to them but they were like absolutely not
00:13:35
like what the [ __ ] uh Daisy let said immediately we thought he was an older man he was 27 but he did not look young
00:13:42
for his age can confirm also what the [ __ ] are you doing at 27 years old 27 I am 27 years old with a 15year old that's
00:13:52
disgusting 15 that actually like makes me physically it makes my stomach literally churn that's a sophomore in
00:14:00
high school yeah and this is just how he he's foul like what do you have in common nothing he doesn't need anything
00:14:07
no and he doesn't that's the thing now after that initial meeting Rose's parents were like no we don't like him
00:14:14
this is [ __ ] up and they said they demanded that she stop seeing him but there was very little they could do to
00:14:19
stop the relationship because she had agreed to take on full-time work as Nanny to Fred and Rose's children that
00:14:25
always goes so well this is like my biggest fear having children when they get to the age where like they
00:14:31
can bring somebody home and you can say no [ __ ] way but you kind of can't but that's like not having that control of
00:14:39
like I just need to let you make mistakes like some of these mistakes can be life altering and I don't want you to
00:14:46
do that like thinking of some of the like people even that I dated when I was like not 15 but like a little bit older
00:14:52
oh my God and he honestly even hearing your opinions being like [ __ ] off yeah but then like knowing that like I'm
00:14:58
going to go through that with my kids and they're going to be like [ __ ] off I'm like no I know I think of like cuz
00:15:05
when you're young you don't go on like such a tizzy with those but when you're young you don't see it like you don't
00:15:11
see through the adult eyes of like how bad things could possibly go cuz you just don't have the experience under
00:15:16
your belt and you're Invincible exactly you yeah nothing can happen to me exactly and he's nice to me sometimes
00:15:22
uhhuh so that's all that matters you know exactly exactly oh it's so scary no now frustrated with their daughter's
00:15:31
relationship Bill and Daisy lets reported to police that their teenage daughter was having a sexual
00:15:36
relationship with an adult and suspected she was also being forced into sex work
00:15:41
at the Caravan Park oh man so good on these parents at this moment at least at Daisy lets for reporting this yeah and
00:15:50
not just being like well whatever cuz especially at this time a lot of like stories you hear is that parents are
00:15:57
just like well you know let them let them make their mistake going to do but the report prompted a brief
00:16:04
investigation and in the summer of 1969 Rose was removed from the home and placed in a home for troubled girls oh
00:16:11
which she described as being like a prison yeah which absolutely it's sad too that like that's the that's the
00:16:17
answer that's the solution but it's almost never a better place it almost always makes it worse yeah but despite
00:16:24
all of this Rose continued seeing Fred she was sneaking out of the home whenever she could and especially when
00:16:30
she knew Reena wouldn't be at home in fact throughout this whole period Reena had carried on life much as she had
00:16:36
while Fred was having an affair with Anna McFall just kind of bouncing back and forth between Gloucester shear and
00:16:42
Glasgow with only like a little bit of a naive awareness of what was going on that's really sad in November 1969 Rose
00:16:51
turned 16 years old and was released from the home and returned to her parents for a brief period of time and
00:16:57
then moved in with R to an apartment that he started renting after once again placing his children in foster care I
00:17:05
don't put just place them and then get them back and then place them again that it's like like if you I I don't know
00:17:13
it's the well but Bill and Daisy lets spent months trying to convince their daughter to end the relationship
00:17:20
culminating in their making another report to the police they were not letting this go good for them so this
00:17:26
time though investigators arranged for Rose to be examined by a doctor and in February 1970 learned that she was
00:17:34
pregnant with Fred's baby yeah I was waiting for that now due to the pregnancy and her refusal to leave Fred
00:17:39
Rose was placed in another troubled girl's home um a month later Rose was released from the home after agreeing to
00:17:47
end the pregnancy and her relationship but instead of returning to her parents she moved into Fred's apartment oh no
00:17:54
there was really nothing else that bill and Daisy felt like they could do so they told her if you continue this
00:17:59
relationship with Fred West you are no longer welcome in our home that's so tough and you have to think of like what
00:18:05
it took to get to that point cuz we know these big major events but I'm sure there were smaller things many little
00:18:10
ones in between now in October Rose gave birth to a girl she named Heather but any joy that she felt about a new baby
00:18:18
was pretty short-lived cuz just a couple months after Heather was born Fred was arrested for stealing car parts and he
00:18:25
of course immediately blamed it on Reena but he was sentenced 8 months in prison
00:18:30
not only did Fred's jail sentence entirely disrupt this whole romanticized fantasy for the future that Rose had
00:18:37
concocted but it also meant that at just 17 years old she was now a single mother
00:18:42
for not one but three children oh my God now for Rose who was still a teenager remember yeah 17 yeah the whole affair
00:18:51
with Fred likely seemed adventurous romantic you know fantasy exactly the kind of dramatic scenario that could
00:18:58
easily could distract and eventually free her from the environment that she felt like she was living in yeah however
00:19:04
having been effectively disowned by her family and temporarily separated from Fred the consequences of her actions and
00:19:11
decisions were starting to become um unavoided yeah at this point um or unavoidable I should say excuse me and
00:19:19
they were not as romantic at this time that she was initially thinking they would being 17 years old and a single
00:19:25
mother to three children at 17 think of who you were at 17 and like obviously people do it and
00:19:31
it's [ __ ] remarkable but like it's literally remarkable but but being thrust into that couldn't even now at
00:19:40
first she loved the idea of being in a relationship with a man who had children like I said she loved kids because she
00:19:46
never had any true responsibility to Charmaine or anarie right now unfortunately once she'd left her
00:19:52
parents home for good and was responsible for three children 24/7 she quickly learned that it's a lot harder
00:19:59
than it looks especially to go into it with three yeah not just one like one is hard enough but three yeah now according
00:20:05
to Rose um anarie was a very quiet very easy what she described as a docile child oh which I don't love that being a
00:20:16
way to describe a child that seems like a word for an animal yeah but she said that Charmaine was often willful and
00:20:24
defiant probably because she knew her dad hated her yeah and also she wasn't responding well to Rose being her new
00:20:30
authority figure who the [ __ ] is this well at this point how many has she had and also well Charmaine is like eight
00:20:37
yeah at this point like she's like's who are you now so the two of them Rose and
00:20:42
Charmaine definitely clashed way more and Rose always felt so frustrated and she would tell Fred about it and things
00:20:50
only got worse once Fred went to prison and Rose was solely responsible for the girls because she just wasn't up for the
00:20:56
task she wasn't she wasn't a mother not long after he went to prison Rose began resorting to physical punishment
00:21:03
whenever Charmaine would act out or defy her that's all um neighbors would recall
00:21:07
fro Rose frequently berating Charmaine in public and often saw evidence of the physical abuse on charmaine's body oh
00:21:15
that makes you sick so like [ __ ] you um but no matter what Rose did and this is really really sad and I just
00:21:23
need to warn you but it shows you how broken these poor children were matter what she did Charmaine refused to cry oh
00:21:33
and that only made Rose angrier and to know that at like 8 years old she knows like [ __ ] you I'm not going to cry well
00:21:41
and her sister and Marie was said she felt like if she cried she was giving in and 8 years old to think that way like
00:21:50
that's your kids those that's my nieces like it like a you're like you're a baby
00:21:56
this case is just just to put that into context that's a second grader that's a second grader that's refusing to
00:22:05
cry because they don't want to give you the satisfaction because they hate you so much and they know have that kind
00:22:13
already deserved hate like like you should hate this person but to know that kind of hate at 8 years old they should
00:22:22
never know that kind of hate for anyone at 8 years old like you shouldn't even know the feeling of hate at that point
00:22:28
no like life shouldn't have given you that feeling yet nope it just kills me now in March 1971 just days after
00:22:36
charmaine's 8th birthday Rose took her to a Gloucester Royal hospital for treatment of a rather serious puncture
00:22:42
wound on her leg a puncture wound and Rose said it was an accident what but it's like what the
00:22:50
[ __ ] did you do exact like what yeah now in may Rose sent a letter to Fred while
00:22:56
he's in prison um where said that she believed that charmaine's poor behavior and defiant attitude was beginning to
00:23:03
affect an Marie's Behavior she said quote you can see sh coming out in Anna now and I hate it and her frustration
00:23:12
can be seen in several of the letters after that um but on visits to the prison they did everything in their
00:23:17
power to look like they were one big happy family because she forced those kids to pretend that they liked her in
00:23:23
front of prison officials because we don't want them knowing now also you didn't have to have these kidss you
00:23:28
brought them to foster care how many times at this point seriously you almost think it like foster care is no [ __ ]
00:23:33
joke but you almost think it would have been better I know I mean probably not but it's all this it's just it's so many
00:23:40
varying degrees horic now on a June 15th visit to Fred and prison Rose was elated
00:23:46
to learn that he might get paroled the following week and 5 days later Charmaine went
00:23:53
missing what Rose has never said what happened to charm and she was eight eight but during her trial the
00:24:03
prosecutor told the jury quote there is clear evidence that Charmaine was greatly disliked by Rosemary West and
00:24:09
that she had been abusive towards the girl in the past one afternoon shortly before Fred's return home and Marie her
00:24:17
sister charmaine's sister returned home from school to find Rose at home and not
00:24:23
Charmaine and when she asked where Charmaine was Rose told her Charmaine had gone to live with her
00:24:29
mother in truth investigators do believe that sometime in late June Rose lost her
00:24:36
temper like she always did with Charmaine and inadvertently possibly killed the child wow and did her what happened with
00:24:46
Reena like she never oh don't worry we'll find out now when Fred was finally paroled on June 24th and returned home
00:24:54
Rose led him down to the basement where she had left charmaine's body Fred removed charmaine's body from the
00:25:00
basement and buried her in a grave he dug in the backyard of their rented home on Midland Road his 8-year-old daughter
00:25:08
that he had never ever loved or treated well like that poor girl just knew hatred her entire eight years of life
00:25:14
was Horror oh my God yeah and it gets the fact that it gets worse like that that's
00:25:23
yeah that's beyond yeah it's beyond comprehension it really is I hate this case um
00:25:28
although she had been out of the picture for some time Reena was obviously very anxious about the welfare of her
00:25:34
children and would frequently check in with Fred's family and hope that they would give her some information because
00:25:39
she was basically being like pushed out of the whole scenario by the summer of 1971 Reena got so anxious and she was so
00:25:47
alarmed with Fred's family unable to give her any information about her daughters that she decided to go to Fred
00:25:53
and Rose's apartment and demand that he give her the girls it it was sometime in
00:25:58
late August that she showed up at Fred's door and he just flatly refused to let her see either of the girls so in
00:26:04
desperation she threatened to go to Fred's father Walter for help and that's when he said sure and he agreed to take
00:26:12
Reena to see Charmaine oh no now like some of the earlier crimes Fred denied playing any part in reena's
00:26:23
Murder so details of the murder are murky but investigators beli that Reena got into Fred's car expecting to be
00:26:31
taken to see her daughter but instead he drove her to a local pub where he got her incredibly drunk what happened next
00:26:38
is a again we only have what we can go on but investigators speculate that based on the state of reena's remains
00:26:45
that were recovered from a shallow grave in letterbox field which is not far from
00:26:49
where Anam MC Fall's remains were buried interesting investigators believe that Fred left the bar with Reena who was by
00:26:55
then too drunk to really put up any kind of a fight and he strangled her and dismembered her body and placed her
00:27:03
remains in two plastic bags that he buried in the field when she was exhumed they also discovered a narrow piece of
00:27:10
chromium pipe and a red plastic child's boomerang in the grave with her because so much time had passed and
00:27:19
because Fred refused to take any responsibility for the crime no official cause of death could be determined and
00:27:25
investigators could never conclusively link him to the crime that's so frustrating cuz it's obviously did it
00:27:32
now in the months that followed no one came looking for Reena West or even seemed to notice that she was missing
00:27:37
because she also came from like an awful he surrounded himself with people like that so he could take advantage of them
00:27:43
Reena had spent most of her life like we said in and out of trouble bouncing back
00:27:47
and forth between Gloucester shear and Glasgow and so it wasn't entirely out of her character to disappear for stretches
00:27:54
of time without really telling anyone where she was going with char and Reena out of the way now for good and Fred and
00:28:01
Rose bonded over their [ __ ] disgusting way of existing and their shared Secrets at this point they were
00:28:09
free to finally marry and begin building the family Rose had always dreamed of she literally murdered his child like
00:28:16
obviously Charmaine was not his child but yeah but like his child for all intents and purpos turn was like I know
00:28:23
you can't have Arena and then she Rose murdered a little 8-year-old he comes home from prison and finds that
00:28:30
then they kill her mom and then they say let's get married so we can finally start our family let's start our family
00:28:37
now that we've gotten rid of everybody that wasn't our family yeah what yeah and poor an Marie like is like where's
00:28:45
my sister where's my mom and she goes through it she really goes through it God it's really awful
00:28:54
but over the course of this life Fred West had come to realize that people and women in particular would resist or you
00:29:03
know recoil from the things that he liked when it came to sex and violence like he couldn't find people that really
00:29:10
dug what he was into because it was horrible he was a different brand um but with rose Fred seemed to have found a
00:29:18
kindred spirit oh yeah now of course it's possible since she's 17 at this point that you know she was just going
00:29:28
along with thing like his his plans and indulging his interests in the more extreme fetishes and things that were
00:29:34
going on just to keep him happy but it it can't be said enough that there is a lot of solid evidence that shows that
00:29:44
Rose enjoyed this as much as he did okay like there's a lot that there's solid evidence suggest that she was very much
00:29:54
a part of this and was not being dragged along for the ride now Fred had never been especially shy
00:30:01
about his extreme interests that's you almost don't even want to call it a fetish
00:30:06
that's the thing cuz I'm like I don't even know how to experi it's well I guess there's a difference between a
00:30:12
fetish and a kink that's the thing and it's well and also his was like a derangement like he wasn't doing things
00:30:18
with consent that's the thing and it's like that's not his is like that's not a kink that's not a fetish that's
00:30:24
something entirely different like the whole point of that kind of stuff is consent right I feel like that's a large
00:30:31
part of that yep which can't be stated enough like you know what I mean like this doesn't represent like a BDSM
00:30:38
situation cuz there's no consent or anything like that yeah it's like that's so that doesn't represent this here at
00:30:44
all this is very much like its own sadistic awful [ __ ] it's Sinister so he had never been shy about this like he'd
00:30:52
been pretty open about it but he had also become aware that others would probably find a lot of these things
00:30:57
unacceptable well and I think that's probably another part of it that he found joy in he liked
00:31:02
that people thought it was gross yeah but in Rose he found someone who is not only not shocked by his interests but at
00:31:11
times was interested in pursuing them with him and in the months after reena's murder Fred and Rose began engaging in
00:31:17
threesoms that were allowing Rose to decide how far she wanted to take this whole thing and it began when Fred and
00:31:26
Rose propositioned a neighbor who they became friendly with and they knew this neighbor was lonely so they knew that
00:31:32
they would likely agree and soon they made a habit of going out at night to pick up especially young women like not
00:31:40
like this is not this is not there's no consent being had here and it was during
00:31:45
these encounters that they began exploring what they would later call like SNM and bondage but it's not that
00:31:54
that's not what they are like that's not what they are there's again there's no consent right this is just Sinister
00:32:01
awful [ __ ] right um but unfortunately this brand of what they were into would become kind of a Hallmark of their
00:32:10
murders and their crimes and which is what makes them so shocking now on January 29th 1972 Fred
00:32:18
and Rose were married in a small ceremony at the Gloucester register office with only Fred's brother John
00:32:24
there to be a witness very few people were made aware of the marriage at all and those that were that who were aware
00:32:32
of it none really brought up the fact that like he was still legally married to Reena yeah there is that whole part of
00:32:41
it and even in the paperwork his first marriage is really not even referenced also was anyone asking where charmain
00:32:48
was like everyone just accepted like did they think she like ran away I think the
00:32:52
whole idea that he put out there and why he got rid of Reena as well said Reena has Charmaine and I don't know where
00:33:00
either one of them are and she just like left with us she just yep cool just took
00:33:04
Charmaine and by got it now a few months later after they got married Rose became
00:33:09
pregnant and they both decided well we're going to have a larger family so let's get a larger house and this is
00:33:14
when they moved from their small rental on Midland Road into a much larger house
00:33:18
at the very Infamous at this time 25 Cromwell Street this is where the majority of their murders would take
00:33:27
place and I think anybody living in this part of the world knows that address and
00:33:33
is probably getting a shiver down their spine hearing that address has their house been demolished yeah I think it's
00:33:39
gone I thought so yeah um thank goodness yeah now at first Fred agreed to rent the modest Cromwell Street house from
00:33:46
their landlord of their previous home but eventually he bought the property outright um in order to supplement their
00:33:52
income Fred and Rose decided to convert one of the floors into a room for rent kind of situation yeah typically these
00:33:59
situations were more like a roommate scenario where a person would rent a room in a house but that gave them
00:34:04
access to the kitchen bathroom you know so on the like main um shared Living Spaces in this case though Fred wanted
00:34:11
to keep the West living space entirely separate from that that was used by any Lodgers that were renting so he
00:34:17
installed the kit kitchen and a wash area on one of the landings he didn't want them coming into the main house for
00:34:23
reasons we now know yeah gee I wonder why now being in an area popular with students stud it really didn't take long
00:34:29
for Fred and Rose to find Lodgers in the spring of 1972 18-year-old Benjamin stanaland moved into the West's home and
00:34:36
he shared a room there with his friend Alan Davis and as they would often do Fred and Rose wasted no time here
00:34:44
testing the boundaries with their new Lodgers that became their thing testing boundaries somebody would come into
00:34:49
their life and they would test those boundaries and see how far those people would let them go and if they wouldn't
00:34:54
let them go far enough that what that they wanted to go they would just for themselves upon them oh but they like to
00:34:59
see if somebody would let them now so it began with rose sneaking into these boys
00:35:05
bedrooms not long after they moved in and having sex with both of them like having sex with or according
00:35:14
to her consensual sex okay and she apparently and and even Benjamin stanaland who was 18 at the time said
00:35:23
later that she discussed it with Fred and he didn't seem to mind all righty the [ __ ] we thought it was weird
00:35:32
that like the black sisters just watched people sleep yeah that seems downright wholesome at this point it sure does now
00:35:38
around that time Benjamin stanaland began dating a local girl 17-year-old Linda Goff and like many girls that
00:35:45
we're going to hear about in this story uh Linda had a very difficult childhood and also likely had an intellectual
00:35:53
disability of some sort that actually made it so that she had to attend a school for children with learning
00:35:58
disabilities oh wow by the time she was in her mid- teens though Linda had according to those around her become
00:36:04
very defiant and at 16 she dropped out of school and she ended up finding job as a seamstress at a local dress shop um
00:36:12
her mother said later she made it clear to us that what she did was her business
00:36:16
okay it was through Benjamin that Linda met Fred and Rose West m a few months earlier Fred's son Steven had come to
00:36:24
live with the West making the very pregnant Rose respons responsible for three children and in June Rose gave
00:36:31
birth to a girl they named May and yes may West oh I didn't think of that that would bring the total to four children
00:36:38
in this house now I was like wait when did he even have a son yeah it's he's he's everywhere now Fred and Rose
00:36:46
suggested that Linda come on as their full-time nanny in exchange for room and board an offer she would eventually and
00:36:53
very unfortunately accept mm now Fred and Rose had obvious committed acts of violent assault and murder prior to 1972
00:37:02
but for the most part these acts seemed like they were opportunistic um accidental or what they
00:37:09
claim is accidental I should say quote unquote or how they saw as solving a problem like you know Anna McFall Reena
00:37:17
West um and while they had begun they had begun exploring their interests and different you know sexual interests with
00:37:26
others but but again they did so sometimes with consent but often times not and even when there was
00:37:38
consent they were very much blurring the boundaries on more than one occasion yeah like sneaking into someone's room
00:37:46
and then having like that already not super consensual there's just some there's a lot of Blurred Lines happening
00:37:53
even when they're claiming cuz they love to claim later they're like no everybody
00:37:57
just to have sex with us and it's like no I don't think so um they're literally depraved humans like that that can't be
00:38:06
stated enough here and by the end of 1972 they began going down a road that just escalated into horror pure Horror
00:38:16
in late November SE 1972 Fred and Rose were on their way to a local pub when they saw a young woman hitchhiking on
00:38:23
the road this is the 70s remember right uh never one to pass up a potential opportunity Fred pulled the car over and
00:38:31
asked this woman 17-year-old Caroline Owens where she was going she was trying to thumb aide home which was nearly 25
00:38:39
miles in the opposite direction but Fred said hey come on in we can give you a ride and she accepted and a lot of times
00:38:46
they were able to get people in the car because they saw things like a car seat right oh yeah and sometimes they had the
00:38:50
kids in the car good awesome Yep um as they drove they all chatted about Caroline's life she was one of 15
00:38:59
children wow and apparently according to her she hated living at home she said she really didn't like her stepfather
00:39:05
and you know she was just very unhappy and she had recently started looking for a new job and a new place to live so
00:39:12
without hesitation Fred and Rose said oh my goodness we need a new nanny for our
00:39:16
children they don't need one they just asked Linda to be their Nanny they literally just got one and they offered
00:39:21
the job to Caroline who said awesome I'll think it over so Caroline called the West cuz they they do play long game
00:39:28
sometimes Caroline called the wests a few days later and said after talking it over with her mother she would accept
00:39:33
the job oh but almost immediately after moving in Caroline was like this is the [ __ ] is this she didn't have a room to
00:39:42
herself she was actually sharing a room with 8-year-old Anna weird and Caroline liked the West
00:39:50
children she was like they were great but she was like Anna's very sad oh she's 8 years old and she she lost her
00:39:58
mom and her sister and she said she and she was quoted as saying she was withdrawn when Fred and Rose were around
00:40:04
and that tells she withdrew very much when they were around um but she said the most horrifying and off-putting
00:40:11
thing in this house was Fred and Rose themselves she said at times it seemed Rose would intentionally invade her
00:40:19
privacy in moments where she was like going to the bathroom like taking a shower like she would just walk into the
00:40:26
room like intentionally yeah she would touch her legs while they were talking like she was very like gropey and gross
00:40:34
yeah and like they did with many of their victims Fred and Rose were testing to see how far they could take it um
00:40:41
whenever they were alone together Fred would talk about sex in a very crude and aggressive way and sometimes he would
00:40:48
reveal very unsavory and un like very scary things to her but then he would backtrack it so he would see how she
00:40:55
would react and then take it back right and it she said and so Caroline said Rose wasn't like didn't appear
00:41:03
threatening to her like she was like something about another woman you know what I mean like you're supposed to feel
00:41:08
a little like oh she's fine Weir and she was like but I really disliked Fred she
00:41:15
was like rose was like weirding me out but I was threatened by Fred yeah I could see that she said he was a little
00:41:20
man with a big head and she said he was so cocky I know it all and then she said
00:41:25
he also clearly took pleasure and making her feel very uncomfortable that seemed
00:41:29
to be his thing and between that and Rose's increasingly very overt and very aggressive sexual like touching of her
00:41:38
after just a few weeks Caroline was like I'm leaving she left she was like [ __ ]
00:41:43
that can you imagine knowing afterwards what she avoided it gets it gets worse Caroline doesn't get out like
00:41:52
scot-free oh I didn't know that oh God unfortunately now Caroline leaving the house was a great disappointment to Rose
00:42:00
who had actually developed like a strong attraction to Caroline and she was angry
00:42:07
like she was very angry felt slighted uh she told Fred if Caroline wouldn't have
00:42:11
sex with her willingly then they were going to force her oh my God now the couple quickly came up with a plan that
00:42:18
they were going to kidnap Caroline and bring her back to the house and on December 6th they went into action they
00:42:24
drove around Gloucester all after afternoon together tracking Caroline's movements what the [ __ ] and a little
00:42:31
after 10 p.m. Caroline was hitching a ride from her boyfriend's house and Fred and Rose
00:42:38
pulled up and offered her a ride oh God and you know she was probably like I'm good well she was like I was definitely
00:42:44
uncomfortable with both of them on more than one occasion but they had never made her like overtly feel like she was
00:42:50
in danger she just felt icked out by them she was like they're [ __ ] weird but like I don't think they're going to
00:42:55
do anything to me exactly so she accepted oh no cuz she said it was also very late and it was very
00:43:01
cold so it didn't take long though before Fred and Rose steered the conversation towards sex and Fred asked
00:43:07
whether Caroline had had sex with her boyfriend that evening and she was like this is weird I'm not answering your qu
00:43:13
like what the [ __ ] like that's not your [ __ ] business and then she looked around and realized we're not going in
00:43:19
the direction of my house which I can't imagine that feeling and to make matters
00:43:23
worse Rose was trying to touch her as this was happening happening even though she was telling her repeatedly stop oh
00:43:30
God this is such a nightmare now her Panic turned to sheer Terror when Fred parked the car in an empty field far
00:43:38
from the city center oh God Rose began attacking her and she said it was her she was like the way she looked at me is
00:43:47
like animalistic yeah and Fred turned around to face her called her a [ __ ] and started repeatedly punching her in
00:43:54
the face until she lost consciousness when she regained Consciousness she found that her hands had been tied
00:44:01
behind her back and Rose was wrapping Brown packing tape around her head oh my God so she was panicking Fred started
00:44:10
the car again and drove back to the West's house on Cromwell Street where they spent the evening terrorizing
00:44:17
torturing and violently assaulting Caroline Oh God this poor girl and all because she just was like yeah I don't
00:44:24
want to work with you anymore yep and because I don't want to have sex with you Rose yeah that that part too
00:44:31
because when everything was done they acted like nothing happened took the tape off and then Fred said Rose is like
00:44:39
this when she's pregnant cuz Rose is pregnant no that's something out of a [ __ ] horror film also the fact that I
00:44:48
mean the fact that they wrapped her head in plastic packing tape is that what you
00:44:53
said like a brown PL packing tape yeah which she that's like one of their Hallmarks they do to people you get
00:45:00
through all of that and he just nonchalantly is like yeah Rose gets um sadistic when she's pregnant and then to
00:45:06
think of like an unborn baby like being there for all of that is so [ __ ] weird and [ __ ] up the kids are are in
00:45:11
the house they could have seen this girl be carried in with packing tape on her face oh my God yeah that place
00:45:20
really like that that doesn't even do it justice and it's been described as that
00:45:26
many many times a house of hores Cu what else do you I mean what else do call it
00:45:29
truly is I mean it's a house of hores like that is a I can't think of a worse house than this but Caroline played
00:45:37
along at this point in hopes that she might be able to escape smart she went as far as helping them clean up the
00:45:43
house after everything oh my God after being violently assaulted when they finished cleaning she played with
00:45:51
Heather and Anna for a little while because they were there oh my God and to I can imagine after all that sitting
00:45:59
down on the floor and playing with their children to play with the kids and she told Fred and Rose that she would love
00:46:04
to return as their Nanny and then agreed to join them at the laundry mat because she was just trying like
00:46:11
that's Survival that's just like I got to do what I got to do to get the [ __ ] out of here that's on another level of
00:46:17
survival and that's on some disassociation and then to get back in a car with them and hope you're going to
00:46:22
the laundromat so they did they drove to the laundry M mat and as soon as they parked Caroline saw the opportunity
00:46:28
jumped out as soon as the door was open and yelled I'll see you tomorrow and just
00:46:33
ran and when she made it home Caroline's mother immediately knew something was wrong with her daughter of course which
00:46:40
was very obvious by just talking to her but also she had bruising and other injuries on her arms and legs from the
00:46:47
whole thing and Caroline remembered though that Fred told her I'll kill you if you tell anyone so she was reluctant
00:46:54
to say what had happened but in time she did tell her mother and her mother immediately reported the assault to
00:47:01
police now this should be it right that should be the end of Fred and rosemary West a 100,000 gajillion percent but
00:47:07
it's the 70s so when investigators showed up at Fred and and Rose's door a few days later their questioning was met
00:47:13
with just denials and Defiance like what the [ __ ] are you talking about and in
00:47:17
cases like this particularly in a pre-feminist era it was just a matter of one person's word against another it's
00:47:25
like look at her injuries yeah so Rose felt confident that the accusations would really nothing would come of them
00:47:32
so she said sure you can search my car they searched in the car and they found a button from Caroline's coat and a
00:47:38
partially used roll of packing tape which lined up with what she said y so the wests were brought in for further
00:47:44
questioning and both eventually admitted to the entire thing wait they admitted to that yeah and then the case went to
00:47:53
trial in early January and the defense was relentless l in their attempts to completely undermine the charges and
00:47:59
minimalize the severity of the whole thing but y'all they admitted to it oh well they Ed the defense that was used
00:48:05
in many a sexual assault case she was Caroline was just framed as having offered passive
00:48:12
cooperation what and was characterized as a willing participant yeah totally a willing participant in having my [ __ ]
00:48:18
head wrapped in packing tape and Fred and Rose are just a harmless couple who maybe got like a little impulsive that's
00:48:25
all maybe got a little impulsive yeah so just after a few days the judge if if we
00:48:31
can call this person a judge not The Honorable um considered the evidence and said quote we do not think that sending
00:48:39
you to prison will do you any good and then gave them a fine of 25 and said bye go back to your home with your
00:48:47
children you yeah you you know what Caroline had to say about that and I don't blame her it made me feel like I
00:48:54
wasn't worth anything that's awful that she felt that way after everything she [ __ ] that judge [ __ ] Fred and rosemary
00:49:00
like [ __ ] you guys [ __ ] that judge can you IM putting you in prison will do you
00:49:05
any good how you feel about that yeah now how'd that pan out honestly you I hope I would every [ __ ] day say if I
00:49:14
knew that judge I would literally just walk up to him every day once a day and just say we do not think it will that
00:49:22
sending you to prison will do you any good I would say it once a day and then just turn your head and and go huh widen
00:49:27
your eyes like and then I come back again the next day at noon and say the same thing for the rest of his life but
00:49:33
poor Caroline too cuz you hear about this all the time it's like people put their faith in the legal system and like
00:49:39
a lot of times luckily it does pan out but the times where it doesn't and especially way back when and to to sit
00:49:45
in that scene and realize there's nobody going to protect me from stuff like this
00:49:50
this could happen to me again and this very thing could pan out just like this and they'll just claim that I said it
00:49:55
was okay and every everybody will just believe them how scary like that's how scary
00:50:02
horrifying how do you come to terms with that horrify and how do you go about living the rest of your life without
00:50:07
being the most paranoid individual even if that's already happened to you regardless of a judgment but then to put
00:50:13
the Judgment hand inand with that the emotional damage that comes after that I can't even conceive of for life in my
00:50:21
worst nightmares I can't conceive of it and these people just say sure you to go
00:50:28
back to your home with your four kids like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you gross it's gross so with each new
00:50:37
Act of depravity that they committed Rose proved to Fred that she was as much a willing participant in the violence
00:50:42
that as he was like every time he was like I saw it more and more that she was just as into this I don't know that I
00:50:48
mean it doesn't really sound like what happened to Caroline would have if Rose didn't feel how she felt no and it was
00:50:54
the assault on Caroline Owens that demonstrated to Fred that Rose's limits and tolerance for violence were actually
00:51:02
far greater than he anticipated I don't think the limit existed it does not in fact when Fred was interviewed by police
00:51:08
in 1994 he admitted that the assault almost certainly would have ended in Caroline's murder but she managed to
00:51:14
escape before they could yeah she was he was like we were going to kill her 100%
00:51:19
not a doubt in my mind and they decided he said we decided then and there that that was the last time we would let that
00:51:24
happen her escaping wow so Fred and Rose turned their attention back to lindoff that and that's their name
00:51:34
that's their new nanny Now by early 1973 Linda was no longer having a relationship with the lodger Benjamin at
00:51:42
the at the west house or any of the other ones um and her job as a seamstress wasn't really going well and
00:51:47
so when Rose suggested that she move into their house and become the full-time Nanny she jumped at the
00:51:52
opportunity in late April Linda's mother June returned home on afternoon to find
00:51:57
that Linda had packed up all her things and left and she had left a note that said dear Mom and Dad please don't worry
00:52:02
about me I've got a flat and I will come and see you sometime love Lynn now it's unclear exactly how things
00:52:11
unfolded once Linda moved into the west house and but and this was in the last week of April but she was there less
00:52:18
than a month um so things escalated pretty quickly yeah when the Cromwell Street
00:52:24
house was eventually excavated after the arrest Linda's body was discovered alongside a
00:52:30
quote mask of wound adhesive tape they made a mask out of it similar to the one that had been wrapped around Caroline
00:52:38
Owen's face and head and investigators found several of Linda's hairs stuck in the tape oh my God leading them to
00:52:45
conclude that she had been abused in a very similar way to Caroline yeah the prosecution later told the jury the
00:52:51
circle of masking tape found with the remains provides the clearest evidence that lindoff was naked and gay
00:52:57
this provides striking and remarkable features of similarity with Caroline Owens and the only Common Sense
00:53:03
conclusion is of sexual abuse before death I just don't understand how that judge looked at that act alone wrapping
00:53:11
her head up in masking tape like that's something that's such a that's such a specific pathology to me yeah like that
00:53:18
takes a specific pathology of person and for them to just ignore that is wild to
00:53:23
not be shocked by that that should make you go whoa whoa whoa who the [ __ ] are
00:53:29
you two that you did this to this person like you telling me she was willing or not wait a second like I that's not
00:53:36
that's not a kink that's not BSM that's not any of the above to be able to WAP somebody's head up in masking tape who's
00:53:45
unwilling yeah I don't really know that anybody that would be willing yeah and either way like she was not a willing
00:53:52
participant in that now once Linda was dead Dead Fred had dism remembered her body and buried her under the carport in
00:54:00
the yard and covered over her remains with stones dirt metal and other debr um as with the several of the other sets of
00:54:08
remains that we'll see there were small bones missing from the body when they were when uh they were finally exed
00:54:14
that's like finger and toe bones so they were tortured Rose meanwhile had gone through Linda's belongings and kept some
00:54:22
stuff for herself some clothing and jewelry and then just got rid of the rest and gets worse because Linda like
00:54:28
we'd said people who knew her like and grew up with her said she was a defiant very headstrong child so when she left
00:54:34
home in April her parents decided to kind of give her some space before trying to convince her to come back home
00:54:39
yeah um her mother said her father and I felt let her have her head for a bit she'll be back that's what June goof
00:54:45
said they've gone through that before so you can understand but when three weeks
00:54:49
had passed and they still hadn't been able to get in touch or heard from her June became concerned and started
00:54:54
calling Linda's friends few people had any details of where she had gone but June was able to narrow her search down
00:55:01
to Rose West after having seen her car on one occasion when she came to pick up her daughter so June knocked on the west
00:55:07
door and Rose answered wearing Linda's slippers no and this Disturbed June her alone of
00:55:19
course but she said she looked past Rose into the backyard and she could see some
00:55:24
of her daughter's clothing hanging hanging on the line to dry oh my God and Rose said she stayed with us for a
00:55:31
little bit but after a few days you know she said something like she was going to
00:55:35
stay at a local hotel so she's just gone but I was wearing her slippers with her clothing on the line back there so
00:55:42
she was walking around that house wearing Linda's slippers after whatever the [ __ ] they had done to her oh my God
00:55:51
and her poor mom seeing those slippers on her feet and she's a mom you got Mom intuition
00:55:59
you know something bad happened here and to see all your daughter's clothes on a
00:56:03
cloth clothing line out back mhm oh my God yeah that's beyond I I keep saying that but like I don't have another
00:56:10
response but June Goff and her husband would go on to report their daughter missing to the local authorities and
00:56:16
they would spend years searching for her at Salvation armies other service organizations anywhere they could think
00:56:24
that she could be until finally learning of her fate in the mid 1990s and for those who did know Linda
00:56:32
was staying at the west house like the handful of Lodgers that were there rose rose told them that Linda had been asked
00:56:38
to leave after she hit one of the children wow so just smeared her name in the process that's nice and just
00:56:44
deflected what she does yeah exactly I'm going to leave it here for now because there's a there's a lot more
00:56:54
that's going to be in part three that's yeah this was Heavy enough on its own but they're just I there's the fact that
00:57:03
people like this exist on the earth and I think like you add in the idea that they are just consistently bringing
00:57:10
children into this as well and that their like you said like their children are home during this like are here are
00:57:16
used as ponds are being abused themselves stuff like and as we'll find out like they're being sexualized
00:57:23
themselves by their own parents like it's this is really bad it's a house of forest it is a house of forest it truly
00:57:30
is now I get I've I knew this case I knew some of the bad horrible things in this case but diving deeper into it yeah
00:57:39
I didn't know everything I don't think I knew the detail about the slippers I don't know if my psyche saved itself but
00:57:46
I think I forgot about the packing tape of it all no it's it's honestly it's beyond
00:57:52
comprehension it really is it's beyond comprehension and it's that cuz like you hear of a case like this and you're like
00:57:58
wow it's so [ __ ] that two people like this exist in this world found each and found each other but then you think of
00:58:05
it and you think of all the other cases that we've covered yeah and it's not just two people like this that exist in
00:58:10
the world like people in general just exist in this world that are capable of things like this and that is the [ __ ]
00:58:18
scariest thing to me it is it just made I want to hug my kids yeah every time I do one of these I'm
00:58:25
like excuse me I'm I'm going to go downstairs and hug them honestly oh oh these are the ones that I
00:58:31
like talk about in therapy right it's this one's a rough one but again it's these kids live through this some of
00:58:38
these women lived through this so it's important to tell their stories absolutely [ __ ] monsters oh true
00:58:44
monsters well um go hug your children yeah do something nice for someone um yeah I
00:58:54
like do something good for your psych after this I don't think it's good necessarily to like end the day on this
00:58:59
do some do some self-care yeah it's a little pedicure or something yeah literally anything that makes you feel a
00:59:05
little lighter go do that definitely cuz I'm going to and we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird
00:59:13
you know I'm not going to say it for this one not this one [Music] [Music] [Music]