00:00:00
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is morbid. >> [music] >> Let's go. Do you remember when I was
00:00:21
really vulnerable last week and I told you I did a foot mask? >> Oh, yes. And then I said I was like
00:00:26
afraid that my feet weren't going to peel but then I was afraid that they were going to peel. I'm going to be
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really vulnerable again. Why are my feet still peeling? >> Yeah, they're going to go for a while. I
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also did one a few days ago because you inspired me. >> I inspired you? Oh my god, I'm an
00:00:39
influencer. >> And mine have also started and it's great. Mikey did one, too. Debbie.
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Peel your feet. >> [laughter] >> Peel them off right now. >> Peel her feet. It's so good. Do that.
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>> It is. It's the best. >> My feet are peeling so much that I almost God, this is horrible. Sorry if you're
00:00:57
eating. But like I'm like do I do one again to like soften the parts that like aren't peeling as easily?
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>> Probably not. I would I was I was met I was met with a series of head shakes from across the room.
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>> Yeah, you don't want to overdo. I overdo. >> You always go hard. You got to pull this
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one back. >> One thing about me, one thing about me [laughter] is that I go hard.
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>> Yeah, you don't want to like start giving your feet problems. That would suck, you know? Well, yeah, it's fun
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though. Do it. >> It is. I suggest you do it. Do it. You'll You'll feel brand new. It's true.
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What's up with you, Red? What's up with me? Um you can pre-order my book, The Butcher Legacy. Let's go.
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>> It's coming out August 11th and you can pre-order it on the butcherlegacy.com.
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Or wherever books are sold. >> Exactly. You can get it anywhere. I'm excited. >> Pre-order it.
00:01:41
>> I'm going to start the series from the top. Hell yes. Start it from the top. >> Cuz I haven't read Well, she
00:01:47
I should say she's read them. Yeah. >> Yeah. No, I'm >> [laughter] >> I'm actually
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>> I'm going to start reading them. >> I I'm like I've actually >> just decided you're doing really good at
00:01:56
this whole thing so I should give it a shot. [laughter] No, I've read all of them and I was
00:01:59
actually just about to say I'm restarting them to get ready for the third one because I have the third one.
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Haha. >> [laughter] >> But I haven't read Butcher and the Wren in how I don't even know how many years
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because it was so long ago at this point. You just keep writing books. It's nuts.
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>> Writing books over here. I'm restarting and I'm going to read them back to back
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to back. >> Yeah. >> And I'm really excited. >> that. >> The next two are thickies. I'm excited.
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>> They are exponentially thicker. >> It's funny because this book is released but I was with you yesterday and I saw
00:02:28
you typing something. I was typing something. I saw you typing something. >> a little something. I don't know. Maybe
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just a little something. Maybe. I don't know. That's crazy. Once Once one's done
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>> [laughter] >> Once one's done, you just type something else. Just start Maybe something's brewing. I
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don't know. >> Type until you die. Exactly. That's what everybody wants from you. Type until you
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die. >> I will. Let's go. So somebody is Somebody messaged me and said they liked the
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little, you know, how to make life feel a little less shitty how it is right now and a little
00:03:00
more like romanticize or slow down or just give you like little pockets. Of course, we, you know, one person was
00:03:06
like glad you're having a great year like go [ __ ] yourself and I was like that's what you got from that. Okay.
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[laughter] You won't be romanticizing your moment. >> anything. Cuz that's clearly not what
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I'm saying. >> Romanticize [laughter] your Instagram comments, okay? Exactly. That's clearly not what I'm saying.
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>> But for the most part, you guys have been digging it which is awesome cuz I'm
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telling you it helps a little. >> It does. It helps a little. It helps take a little bit of the edge off of all
00:03:29
the [ __ ] [ __ ] that is happening because it is complete [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] ice.
00:03:33
[ __ ] But one thing I said I did was I watched Center Stage at like 5:30 in the morning
00:03:40
the other morning and it really set me up for a pretty [ __ ] great day. So what did you watch the next day? Well,
00:03:47
then my my little watch list was like, oh girl, you like Center Stage at 5:30 in the morning? And I said, yeah, I do.
00:03:54
And it said, here's some other little gems for you. >> What What do we have? >> I mentioned this early, Through Me
00:04:00
Through Me Drive Me Crazy. Oh. And I said, Banger. All right, let's give that a shot. Guys, Banger. that movie.
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>> I haven't seen that movie in a long time. >> banger. It's very of the time. I need
00:04:16
you to know that right now going in. Super odds. But that's just where we are, you know? It is It is what it is,
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too. Everything is of the time. Yeah. And but Drive Me Crazy was great. That was the other It took me like two
00:04:29
mornings to get that through that one. Is Mozart on heart and that Yeah, of course she is.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's great. Yep. And the next one I watched after that that I started watching 10
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Things I Hate About You. >> Oh. [groaning] >> Yeah. 10 Things I hate that scene where
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they're in the bleachers and it >> [singing] >> Oh, ruined me. >> Heath Ledger forever.
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>> No, I'll cry right now. I'll sob on this podcast. >> He is just a king in that movie. Oh my god. Um and
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the next one I have on my list that I'm going to go to after finishing 10 Things
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I Hate About You is Can't Hardly Wait. Jennifer Love Hewitt. What happened? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. After
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graduation. Um Carlisle from Twilight is in it. What? [laughter] Yeah, he plays the jock. Is
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[ __ ] Seth Green in that? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He plays a wild animal. Yeah, [laughter]
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he certainly does. And I think that's why I was like I remember that movie. >> a minute. That will stay with you. Very
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of the time. So I know my watch list here is It's like giving me a queue of like, oh, you like this. Like you're in
00:05:34
that era. Yes. >> I'm telling you the nostalgia in the morning of these movies when I just I'm
00:05:39
like doing things and I just put them on. Don't have to sit down and like really like engross yourself in them.
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It's It's working. >> I love that. >> me feel good, you know? Good for you. I suggest it.
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>> Perfect. >> I highly suggest it. I'm just starting my morning. I'm on Chinese medicine
00:05:56
TikTok. I had no idea where you were going with that for a second. >> you were like, what are you saying? Cuz
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I thought at first you were saying my mornings like I'm starting with Chinese Like I thought you were going to be like
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Chinese food and I was like, this is different. That [laughter] would be I wish I could start my mornings with
00:06:10
Chinese food. No, I'm on Chinese TikTok, Chinese medicine TikTok and they're giving you
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all these that like little like bullet points of advice and you should start your morning with hot water or something
00:06:22
hot to like get your belly settled. >> Oh, I think I have seen that. >> [ __ ] will change your life. I'm having a
00:06:28
little [laughter] hot water with lemon. I don't know. I rolled up here with my hot tea. Oh, good. I first had a hot
00:06:32
water lemon then I had a hot tea. Look at that. >> The hot bevergino's. >> it's the little things. Again, it's the
00:06:38
little things. And you'll like this. I'm keeping my feet warm. Oh, yeah. As you should. You should not walk around the
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house barefoot according to Chinese medicine. >> Never have been, never will be. Always
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did, won't [laughter] again. There you go. >> Look at these. Look at these. I got I
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ordered these these little ditties. They're grippy so I don't fall on my butt. Yeah, I'm saying.
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>> It's good [ __ ] >> So that's wellness with Elena and Ash. >> Yeah, so do those things. Crazy ops
00:07:01
movies, fuzzy socks and hot bevergino's. >> If I come If I come up with anything
00:07:06
else little that seems to work and make me feel good, I'll let you guys know because we're not gatekeeping happiness
00:07:11
over here. Maybe I'll start eating Chinese food in the morning. Yeah, let you know if it
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works. >> Exactly. We'll share [laughter] it. I like your movie recommendations though
00:07:20
so please continue watching ridiculous movies and telling us about them. Hell yeah. All right, I'm going to talk about
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something that is also nostalgic. No, it might be. Maybe to you. >> Yeah, I wasn't alive. No, I was. I was.
00:07:35
I remember when this happened. >> really? I mean, it was probably a pretty big deal. We're going to be talking
00:07:39
about Heaven's Gate and if you were alive and functioning this will be nostalgic It will be nostalgic
00:07:44
[laughter] for you, I suppose. I don't know if you long for this time but I don't I don't know your life.
00:07:49
So let's talk about it. In mid-March 1997, 43-year-old Richard Ford finally spoke out against Father Doe who was
00:07:58
known to the rest of the world as 65-year-old Marshall Applewhite. For over 20 years, he had been slowly
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building a following as the leader of Heaven's Gate which was this religious cult. Their beliefs were
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kind of a blend of Christianity, science fiction and like new age practices but they were bonkers.
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>> Wow. Wow. Wow. By the mid-1990s, Marshall Applewhite had attracted over 40 men and
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women who were basically just fed up with their day-to-day lives, fed up with society. Ages in the group actually
00:08:31
ranged all the way from people in their mid-20s to their early 70s. This was like a vast range of people. They all
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hoped that his predictions to finding a better life on another planet would come
00:08:42
true. Period. Period. >> Period. According to Marshall Applewhite, their escape would be made
00:08:49
in an alien spacecraft that was following closely behind the Hale-Bopp comet which was expected to pass the
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Earth at the end of March. I remember this. It was like a huge thing. The Hale-Bopp comet was like nuts. I don't
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recall. Yeah, I don't recall. We went out on the front lawn and we waited for it.
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>> Did you? I think I was still in Hawaii at that point. So I wasn't with you, unfortunately. I wish I had that
00:09:13
experience with you. I'm bummed. But the thing was in order to catch their ride to the higher plane on the
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Hale-Bopp comet the members of Heaven's Gate would need to slip the bonds of their earthly bodies prior to the
00:09:26
comet's arrival. So they had to figure that whole thing out. >> Yeah, of course.
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>> Now Richard Ford who was known to the rest of the group as I think it's Neody
00:09:34
or Rio DiAngelo. They got like different names when they went into the cult. >> Oh, okay. He, Richard, had been with
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Heaven's Gate for a while and up to the point that he spoke out, everybody saw him as a very firm believer in this
00:09:46
ideology and the mythology that Applewhite had built over the years. But when it came time to enact the final
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plan to ascend to this new celestial form he was one of a small number who just wasn't ready to take that step
00:10:00
because that step was literally ending your life. >> Yeah. But like to move on to the next
00:10:04
one with complete trust. With complete and utter trust. >> It's like um in the circle in The Craft.
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>> Yes. With perfect love and perfect trust. >> Exactly. So his reluctance obviously caused a
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rift between him and the cult leader. And by mid-March, Richard decided that he was going to leave the group. But he
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let them know that he cared about them a lot and he wanted to, you know, keep in
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touch as long as they could and he wasn't going to intervene on their plans in any way. So like He was being a real
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one. Yeah, he was like, "I love you guys and like I'm not going to stop you, but
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like I I don't want you to do this." >> Yeah, like he was like, "This is not my scene." Yeah. But You know what? I won't
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mess it up for you. He lived and he let live. >> He did. He didn't yuck other people's
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yums. He didn't, no matter how nutso their yums were. >> Yes. So Richard Ford was at home on the
00:10:49
afternoon of March 25th when the mail arrived. And among the letters was a package that included a letter and two
00:10:55
videotape statements from the Heaven's Gate members informing him that they, quote, shed their containers That [ __ ]
00:11:03
me up. and left the Earth bound for a better life. Shed my container is No, I hate it. That's crazy.
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>> We recorded an episode once and I still feel this way. I think you were talking
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a lot about the brain or I was and I was like, "I don't like talking about my brain too much because I can feel
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container? Yeah. I'm just a [ __ ] container. I mean the truth of the matter is yes.
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>> No, I know. No, I know. >> But I like We're just a container for our inner like insides. Shut up. I
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can't. >> It's true. Shut I mean that isn't like shut up. Like shut up. Not like stop
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talking, just like shut up. >> Yeah. But your skin itself is an organ, so >> A dot is an organ.
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>> really look at it that way though, we're not really a container. True. >> Because we're one giant organ. But I
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think he I don't even think he was talking about organs. I think he was talking more about like souls.
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>> Oh yeah, for sure. >> Like I was what we're talking about it. Like we're containers for our organs. We
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are containers for our organs, but also kind of not because >> Yeah, when you think about the skin
00:12:03
being an organ, that [ __ ] will ruin your life. [laughter] So yeah, they were shedding their
00:12:07
containers. They let Richard know and Richard obviously knew what that meant. But he didn't know exactly what to do
00:12:13
about it. So the next day he just told his boss, Nick Matzorkis, about the tapes and they both decided to drive the
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two hours to the Heaven's Gate compound in Rancho Santa Fe to be like, "Did they do this?"
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>> Like what's going on here? So when they got to the house, Nick was like, "I'm going to wait in the car,
00:12:29
buddy. You can check that out." >> He's like, "You seem to know about this, so I'm just going to stay here."
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>> Yeah, he said, "I'll fly, you do everything else." >> Yeah. So Richard made his way around to the
00:12:37
side of the house and the door was unlocked. He was armed with a video camera. He entered the house and he
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found pretty much exactly what he had expected. All 39 remaining members of Heaven's Gate dead from intentional
00:12:50
overdoses. Their bodies, if you know this story, you know, were all just laid out on
00:12:55
mattresses and covered with purple shrouds. Oh. He spent about 10 minutes in the house
00:13:01
just doing his best to document the scene, but never touching anything. But unfortunately, by the time they got
00:13:07
there, everybody inside had been dead for multiple days at that point >> and decomposition was well underway
00:13:14
because, mind you, even anywhere like that would have been [ __ ] gnarly, this is in California.
00:13:20
>> Oh. >> So it's hot >> Yeah. >> and putrid. >> he even walk in there? I don't know. But
00:13:26
it didn't take long for him to get like forced out of the house basically by the
00:13:29
smell of everything. So just to be blunt. So since he'd already explained to his boss what he
00:13:34
thought had happened, there was really no need for him to explain what he had just walked into. So he just got back in
00:13:40
the car and said, "They did it." Oh. That is so chilling. >> It's haunting. So Nick, his boss, was
00:13:46
shocked, but he was like, "I think we need to call the police now." So like hello.
00:13:52
>> a fair statement. >> Fair. Super fair. Good person in a leadership role. Love to see it.
00:13:57
>> Good It's good you had your boss with you. That was like, "We should call the
00:14:00
police." >> Yeah, he said, "Here's what we do when things like this happen." So once they got back to Beverly Hills,
00:14:05
Richard called with an anonymous tip to 911 basically saying that he needed to report this tip. And when the dispatcher
00:14:12
was like, "Okay, what's this regarding?" He said, "This is regarding a mass suicide and I can give you the address."
00:14:18
>> Oh. Which like holy [ __ ] >> was probably like, "What?" Yeah. So assuming it was only going to be a
00:14:24
well-being check, the San Diego County Sheriff's Office only dispatched two officers to the address. It's always
00:14:31
good to underreact, you know? We tell so many cases where they're just like, "Ah,
00:14:36
it's probably it. We'll check it in 4 days." Or like, "We'll send one and a half people."
00:14:41
>> Yeah. It's like Underreact. >> know about that. >> That's what I always say. So they sent
00:14:45
them to the house, which the Heaven's Gate like members, by the way, referred to as
00:14:50
the monastery. So it's like it's just so It's so spooky. >> It's so spooky. It's very spooky. It's
00:14:56
it's metal. And it's such it's it's very much an amalgamation of so many different ideologies. Like the
00:15:01
monastery, it's like that It's just so many different things put together. >> Well, like we'll get a little more into
00:15:07
it and like how what the belief started as, what they evolved into. It's all over the place. But so they got to the
00:15:13
monastery and the deputies again found the side door unlocked just like Richard had. And inside they were immediately
00:15:19
hit with a quote pungent odor that basically forced them right back out of the house. They didn't even get to be in
00:15:25
there as long as Richard was. The scene inside the house was unlike anything either of them had ever seen
00:15:31
before. When they went back in in the first room they entered, they discovered the bodies
00:15:35
of 10 men all laid out on metal-framed beds in a row. One of the officers said they looked so peaceful that they almost
00:15:42
appeared to be sleeping. Ooh. Each body was dressed in black pants, black Nike sneakers, and the head and upper torso
00:15:50
of each, like I said, was covered in the purple shroud. On their arms, there was a custom patch
00:15:55
that read Heaven's Gate Away Team Away Team? which was a reference to like the teams on Star Trek. Yeah.
00:16:04
>> exploration people. >> Yeah. >> [gasps] >> In the pockets of each, for some reason, there's so many
00:16:11
chilling details about this, but for some reason, I don't know why, this is the thing that really gets me. In every
00:16:17
person's pocket, they found a $5 bill and a roll of quarters. And at the foot of each bed or cot,
00:16:23
whatever have you, there was a suitcase or a bag fully packed. Oh, cuz they fully believed that they were going.
00:16:31
>> Yeah. And they literally had their fare That's really sad. >> I think that's what gets me so much is
00:16:37
just how [ __ ] sad that is. Ooh. So the two responding officers did their best to just conduct a search of the
00:16:44
crime scene, but the home was massive and the conditions inside were unbearable pretty quickly. So they had
00:16:50
to head back to their vehicle again and just wait for additional resources. Dan Crytsler told a reporter from the LA
00:16:56
Times, "They lost count at 10." referring to the responding officers' attempt to determine how many victims
00:17:01
were actually inside. When backup finally did get there a little bit later, the two officers were
00:17:07
sent to the hospital because like the two original officers because everybody was so concerned that these deaths could
00:17:13
have been caused by some kind of exposure to like a toxic gas or something that they needed to be checked
00:17:18
out. >> a valid theory. Yeah. So it didn't take long for the medical examiner, Dr. Brian
00:17:23
Blackburn, to confirm the cause of death and dispel any rumors of toxic gas, I guess luckily. Yeah. I don't even, you
00:17:30
know. A few days after the bodies were discovered, he reported that all 39 individuals discovered in the house,
00:17:36
which was 21 women and 18 men, they had all died from ingesting a mix of phenobarbital and vodka. Holy [ __ ]
00:17:44
Investigators also found several plastic bags and elastic bands that were scattered around the house.
00:17:50
So as far as the medical examiner could tell, it seemed like they the members had died in three waves over the course
00:17:56
of 3 days. What the [ __ ] >> wasn't I don't think I've ever heard that before actually.
00:18:02
>> either actually. I thought it was just like everybody took it, laid down, like
00:18:06
Jonestown, you know? >> This was over the course of 3 days and it started on March 22nd, he believed.
00:18:12
So they watched people die. >> people. And helped people and then did it Whoa. >> Yeah.
00:18:18
So it was later learned that when one among the first wave died, one of the living members removed the bag from
00:18:24
around their head, positioned the body neatly on the bed, placed the purple cloth over their face. And they realized
00:18:30
this because only two of the bodies were discovered without the purple shroud across their face.
00:18:35
>> Cuz they were the last two, I was going to say. >> So they were put They had like plastic
00:18:39
bags on their head, like they were suffocating as well. >> Some of them did. I think it was just to
00:18:42
ensure that if the if the what they took didn't take effect, that they would still make it on their trip. That's even
00:18:49
Whoa. And they like people were just ensuring this for each other. >> 3 days just being in that house with
00:18:57
helping people die. Yeah. Ooh. And like the last people were just [ __ ] >> Two waves of people had already died and
00:19:04
were just laying right there next to them. Oh my god. Yeah. Now, according to the medical examiner,
00:19:12
there was no sign of violence, no sign of resistance, but eight of the 18 men, including Marshall Applewhite, who again
00:19:19
was the head of this all, had been castrated at some point long before their deaths actually.
00:19:24
>> like part of this whole thing? Yeah, it had to have been part of the beliefs. He
00:19:28
said, "This is not something they did themselves." And added that it also had not been done recently. So I don't know
00:19:33
if that was also something that they helped each other with or if they had some kind of surgery like
00:19:39
>> The way that I remember hearing about this is that it was a surgical castration.
00:19:44
>> Yeah. >> It makes sense cuz he like he said like they didn't do this themselves. So
00:19:49
they opted to have that done. >> Mhm. So in the days that followed, investigators learned that the members
00:19:54
of Heaven's Gate believed that, quote, sexual organs were unneeded in the next world and could actually be a hindrance
00:20:00
to gaining admission into that world. >> Oh, see, cuz I was before that second part, I was like,
00:20:05
well, you know, just carry them in like an appendix. You don't necessarily need it, but
00:20:10
you know, you can always but I guess if it's going to be a problem getting in, it would be a hindrance. You don't even
00:20:14
need to carry it with you if you don't want to. So, regardless of their philosophy, the castrations were still
00:20:20
obviously like one of the more confounding aspects of the case. Dr. Blackburn said, "It's not something a
00:20:25
legitimate physician would do on an individual person upon request." >> going to be my next thing was like, what
00:20:31
doctor did this? I don't know. >> Was it a doctor Yes, I have no idea. >> else who surgically did it without
00:20:38
surgical experience. >> Right, or maybe they had surgical surgical experience at one point. Cuz
00:20:44
the fact that the doctor was like, it didn't look like they did this them like it wasn't Yeah, like they didn't do it
00:20:48
themselves. >> looked professional. So, while the medical examiner's office worked day and night to process all of
00:20:54
these bodies, because this is so many, 39 bodies, the San Diego Sheriff's Department
00:20:59
started processing the scene inside the house. It was clear that the deaths were
00:21:02
obviously part of some kind of religious ritual, but as they made their way through the house, they couldn't help
00:21:08
but notice that there was a pretty big absence of anything even resembling religious material or symbolism in any
00:21:14
way. Instead, the house was mostly full of computers and other electronics. And it turned out that while the main
00:21:21
the group's main focus was on their religious beliefs and, you know, moving on to this next world or planet, they
00:21:27
actually spent most of their time on their company, which was called Higher Source Contract Enterprises. And that
00:21:33
was a web development company that they operated to fund Heaven's Gate. Oh. So, Higher Source had been founded and
00:21:40
registered 2 years earlier in Arizona, where they had lived before they moved to California. And as far as
00:21:46
investigators could tell, almost all of the members of Heaven's Gate were experienced in IT or web design in some
00:21:52
way. Interesting. >> Yeah. According to one >> like that's like a very intelligent
00:21:57
group. >> Yeah. According to one Higher Source client, they were very professional. We
00:22:02
got more for $1,000 than other companies who paid a lot more. Hm, that's very interesting.
00:22:08
>> It is. Like like you said, these were smart people. >> Yeah. So, while the inside of the house didn't
00:22:13
provide a ton of information about the group or what would have motivated them to take their own lives, fortunately,
00:22:18
the neighbors proved to be a little bit more insightful. The owner of the home, Sam, uh, I hope I don't mess this up, I
00:22:24
looked it up, uh, Kauches Kauches Fahani, he had purchased the house in 1994, and he wanted to flip it for a
00:22:31
profit. >> [snorts] >> But after a few years passed without any buyer for this massive home, he was
00:22:36
like, you know what, I'll just rent it out. And Heaven's Gate ended up renting out the property, and they moved in in
00:22:42
October of that year. Since then, several realtors had shown or tried to show the property, but all the
00:22:48
prospective buyers were kind of put off by the members of Heaven's Gate. >> Yeah, I mean, when you are looking at a
00:22:54
place and a cult lives there, weird vibes. >> It's at least going to make you think. I
00:22:59
would say, you know what, I'm going to buy some sage, probably. >> the vibes may be a little off.
00:23:04
>> Get a few crystals. Get a little new age-y myself. >> There you go. You know?
00:23:08
>> Just a different kind. Just different kind, you know? One realtor said, "I tried to show the
00:23:12
home to buyers, but there was always some sort of religion meeting going on." Oh, yeah.
00:23:16
And then other realtors >> send me away. >> Yeah, I'd be like, bye. Other realtors
00:23:20
had like strangely strange interactions with the members. Local agent Bob Dyson said, "There were computers everywhere.
00:23:26
There were men and women, all had crew cuts, including the women. They were very android-like. They referred to each
00:23:31
other as brother and sister." Yeah. No way. It was just very like It almost sounds like a cartoon. Yeah,
00:23:38
it sounds like a futuristic cartoon. >> It sounds like how somebody would write a cult.
00:23:42
>> Yes. >> You know, like if somebody like on a fictional cult. Very ominous. >> And that would definitely send me I'd be
00:23:48
like, you know what, you do you >> Yeah. here, but I don't want this property. >> I don't think I'm going to be living
00:23:52
here. >> I don't think I want that energy that comes with this. So, the realtors definitely thought they
00:23:57
were strange, and so did the potential home buyers. But the neighbors who had a little more like interactions with them
00:24:02
had positive memories of the group. >> nice. >> Next door neighbor Shelby Strong told a
00:24:06
reporter, "They could not have been quieter, nicer neighbors." Well, that's just great.
00:24:10
>> And her husband Bill said, "They certainly didn't disturb any of the neighbors here. There's nothing to
00:24:14
object to." Wow, so it's nice that they weren't like sacrificing any animals in their
00:24:17
>> Yeah, I mean, a real situ it really is a thing like they're just doing their thing.
00:24:21
>> Yeah, and it sounds like their neighbors loved them. >> Seemed like it. >> Yeah, you know, what are you going to
00:24:25
do? >> So, another man who owned a car wash in the area, he had gotten to know a few of
00:24:30
the members in the months leading up to their deaths, and he described them as very loving and the nicest, sweetest
00:24:34
guys you could ever meet. Well, that just makes me sad. >> It's super sad. The This whole thing is
00:24:39
very sad. I think like the belief system that they really thought they weren't they weren't ending their lives, they
00:24:47
were beginning new lives in their in their minds. And it's like I cults are always really sad. Like
00:24:55
these kind of cults, especially when they end like this. It's like cuz it's like people who like these people were
00:25:00
lost. Like obviously and obviously looking for something. >> And very much done with whatever they
00:25:04
had here on this plane. >> find it with this kind of situation and then have somebody tell them like, I can
00:25:11
get you somewhere that's going to be amazing and away from all these problems that you have or these worries that
00:25:16
you're dealing with. And all they're doing is, you know, going to the furthest lengths
00:25:22
possible. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's very sad. >> Yeah. So, no matter how they were described, the group still had pretty
00:25:29
much all the obvious hallmarks of a cult, like we were just saying. They were insular, they were reclusive, they
00:25:34
all dressed the same, they didn't demonstrate any kind of individuality, and most importantly, they were very
00:25:40
devoted to the bizarre teachings of their leader. From the moment the deaths were
00:25:44
reported, all anybody could think of was something I mentioned earlier, the mass
00:25:49
deaths that had taken place in Jonestown two decades earlier, because it sound very sounded very familiar. Yeah. And
00:25:55
both events were entirely incomprehensible to anybody on the outside. Undersheriff Jack Drown said,
00:26:01
"We are proceeding with the preliminary conclusion that what we are looking at is in fact 39 suicides. I'm not too sure
00:26:08
we'll ever have satisfactory answers." Damn. Because who's there to tell you anything, you
00:26:13
know? >> really just trying to derive things off of a scene of 39 dead people. >> And one person who called in and was
00:26:20
like, "I knew they were going to do this." Like here they are. So, whatever answers came in the weeks
00:26:25
and months that followed weren't really likely to satisfy anybody who was curious. But there was an explanation
00:26:30
for what had happened at the compound, and it turned out that the key to understanding the deaths was in
00:26:36
understanding the leader himself, Marshall Applewhite. Yeah, who's this guy? He has got an interesting story.
00:26:42
>> Mhm. So, Marshall Herff Applewhite was born May 17th, 1931 in Spur, Texas to Louise and Marshall Applewhite Sr., a
00:26:51
homemaker and a Presbyterian minister, respectively. As the child of a minister, obviously
00:26:57
religion played a pretty significant role in Marshall's life from the time he was born, and he participated actively
00:27:02
and actually enthusiastically in the church that his dad ran. By high school, his enthusiasm for
00:27:08
religion had kind of diminished, especially when he got more involved in like student groups and
00:27:12
extracurriculars, but it it didn't deplete entirely. Yeah. According to his sister, Louise, the family led a kind of
00:27:20
nomadic life during their like childhood. As one of the leaders of the Texas Presbyterian community, Marshall
00:27:26
Sr. uprooted his family every few years to move from one small South Texas community after another. Like they were
00:27:33
just constantly moving around Texas. >> That must be tough. >> He would establish a new church, he'd
00:27:38
build up the congregation, and they'd move on. So, after his graduation from Corpus
00:27:42
Christi High School in 1948, Marshall enrolled at Austin College in Sherman, Texas, and he did pursue a degree in
00:27:50
philosophy. Which is kind of on the nose. >> going to say. His former roommate said
00:27:55
that Marshall was religious, but not fanatically at that point. He said he was an extrovert, he was popular, he was
00:28:01
very smart, he wasn't pushy. Hm. And that memory seems to check out. During this period, Marshall's religious
00:28:06
activities definitely took a backseat to his other school activities. Uh, he was
00:28:11
on the Judiciary Council, and he was the leader of the school's a cappella choir.
00:28:15
>> Wow. So, it wasn't like he was running around spreading all his views at the >> No, and he wasn't like isolating or, you
00:28:22
know, He was very much involved. >> hyperfixating on certain things, yeah. >> Yeah, like he had some kind of faith
00:28:27
that he followed, but it wasn't necessarily the focal point of his life. >> Yeah, like he was varied in his
00:28:34
interests, it seems. So, once he got his degree from Austin College in 1952, he enrolled at Union Presbyterian Seminary
00:28:42
in Richmond, Virginia. And that was when he planned to follow in his father's footsteps. But by the end of his first
00:28:48
year, he missed being involved with music, so he actually dropped out of the program and took a position as the
00:28:54
director of music at the First Presbyterian Church in Gastonia, North Carolina, I think it is.
00:28:59
Former choir member Edith Warren said, "He had a beautiful voice. He was a very personable person, and he was a strong
00:29:05
leader." Oh, that'll give you goosebumps, yeah. Especially like hearing that in this
00:29:11
context. >> Yeah. Hearing that otherwise, you're like, "Oh my god, good job. Look at
00:29:15
you." Like >> leader vibes. >> Yeah. >> Now you're like, oh. Yeah, he >> took that to a dark place.
00:29:21
>> Yeah. So, it was during this time, which was around 1953, that he met and married
00:29:25
Ann Pearce. They became friends with actually that woman Edith Warren and her husband, who were also newlyweds, and
00:29:31
they just started spending a ton of time together as couple friends. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, Marshall's new life in
00:29:37
North Carolina was disrupted when he was drafted in 1954. For the 2 years that followed, he and
00:29:43
Ann lived in Salzburg, Austria, actually. And then he was relocated to White Sands, New Mexico, where he served
00:29:50
as an instructor in the Army Signal Corps. Two years later, after he was honorably
00:29:54
discharged from the Army, he and Anne moved to Colorado. He finished his graduate degree at the University of
00:30:00
Colorado. He actually got a master's in music, and then his plan was to pursue a
00:30:05
career in musical theater. Wow. >> all over the place, pretty much. >> You wish he had followed that path.
00:30:12
Yeah. Well, during that time, he and Anne actually had two children. >> Oh, wow. And Anne basically just spent
00:30:17
most of her time focused on raising her family while Marshall was looking into his musical theater career. Huh. After
00:30:24
he got his degree, they moved to the family to New York City. Obviously, that's the best place where you can
00:30:29
pursue a music professional singing career. But it didn't take long before he realized that his dream of fame wasn't
00:30:35
very practical, and it wasn't going to be financially sustainable for a family. >> Yeah. It's a lot of hit and miss. Yeah.
00:30:41
So the family went back south, where Marshall bounced from one short-lived job to another. He just was kind of
00:30:47
doing whatever he needed to at that point to try to feed his family. >> Yeah. His sister said, "During those
00:30:52
years, Marshall was really devoted to his children." Oh. Which is nice. >> It is, for the time being. Oh. While he
00:30:58
may have been devoted to his children, by the early 1960s, the relationship between Marshall and Anne became
00:31:03
strained. What Anne didn't know, and really what nobody knew at that point, was that Marshall was struggling with
00:31:09
his sexuality and had been from a young age. >> Okay. He was finding it more and more
00:31:13
difficult to deny that he was gay. And obviously, this was a very tough time to struggle with that.
00:31:19
>> Mhm. So while he was working at the University of Alabama, he started having an affair with a male student.
00:31:25
>> Oh. And when the relationship was discovered in 1965, he was obviously fired. As he should be. Yeah.
00:31:32
The reasoning for his firing inevitably made its way to his wife, who was devastated. So they separated that year,
00:31:38
but they remained married for 3 more years before they finally divorced in 1968.
00:31:44
>> Wow. So that same situation actually went down a second time in 1970. He was fired
00:31:49
again, this time from his position as a music professor at the University of St.
00:31:54
Thomas in Houston. And that year, school administrators discovered he was having
00:31:59
a relationship again with a male student. >> Oh, so he's like being a predator. Yeah.
00:32:04
Yeah. But the school's official reasoning for terminating his employment was listed as health problems of an
00:32:09
emotional nature. Oh. Which is very telling. >> Yeah. So, no good. No, that's very predatory
00:32:17
behavior, my friend. >> Yeah, definitely. >> [snorts] >> So even though his being fired from a
00:32:22
Christian university was almost certainly related to one, being predatory, and two, his sexuality, this
00:32:28
was the first time that any anybody had actually addressed his poor mental health. He was really going through it.
00:32:34
>> Clearly, yeah. Around this time, Patsy Swayze, the legit mother of Patrick Swayze,
00:32:40
>> Oh, I was like I was like, Swayze, you said? >> Correct. Wow. Uh she was in a local
00:32:45
theater group with Marshall Applewhite. >> What the [ __ ] And she actually started
00:32:49
noticing a change in his behavior around this time. Mama Swayze? >> Mama Swayze. She said he was normally
00:32:56
well-spoken, but suddenly she and a lot of others in the group noticed that he started to quote, "Act strangely,
00:33:02
talking about UFOs and preaching this strange religion." Ooh, then that's like that's so unsettling to just have such a
00:33:09
switch in personality. >> it was so marked. >> Yeah, that's the thing. Even I mean,
00:33:14
Mama Swayze noticed it. >> Mama Swayze noticed it. Yeah, so what? I trust Mama Swayze.
00:33:18
>> I do, too. RIP Patrick and Mama. >> It's true. So what Mama Swayze and the other group the others in the group
00:33:23
didn't know was that, in addition to Marshall's having been fired, he also came out to his parents and was
00:33:30
immediately and aggressively rejected by his father. >> Nothing about that will ever make sense
00:33:35
to me. No. >> Ever. No. >> On any level. You shouldn't have kids if you're afraid to love them.
00:33:40
>> love them, no matter what. Like Anyway, not long after he was hospitalized with or I should say he was
00:33:48
allegedly hospitalized with a blockage in his heart that he supposedly almost died from. His sister believed that it
00:33:55
was that near-death experience and the influence of one of his nurses that really led to the profound shift in his
00:34:01
personality and his lifestyle. Oh, no. She said, "One of the nurses there told him he had a purpose, that God kept him
00:34:07
alive." She sort of talked him into the fact that this was his purpose, to lead these people, and he took it from there.
00:34:16
I can't imagine being that nurse. That's rough. Uh you definitely can't imagine being that nurse, because she becomes a
00:34:22
huge part of this story. >> Oh, no. >> She is like she gets lost a lot. She's like kind of one of the founding members
00:34:30
of Heaven's Gate. >> Cuz I was going to say, I thought you were just going to say she was this
00:34:34
nurse who helped him, and then Just like a sweetie. >> said to him, like, "You're here for a
00:34:41
purpose. Like lead people." You know what I mean? Like trying to be like, "You're here. Like you have a purpose, a
00:34:46
destiny." Like Just like that sweet lady you see in the movie, and you're like, >> that's what that was going to be, and
00:34:51
then he became Marshall Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate cult, and she was like, "Fuck, I just meant live." Like I
00:34:58
I thought she was going to be like, "Damn it, I didn't mean that." I I thought the same thing when I first
00:35:02
started learning about this, but then I found out very quickly that they essentially like merged brains. Whoa.
00:35:08
It's crazy. Okay. So we'll get into that. >> Yeah. So it turned out that Marshall had
00:35:12
actually lied about the health scare, and that he had actually checked himself into a psychiatric hospital, in part for
00:35:18
the treatment of his declining emotional health, but also, and this is really sad, in search of a cure for his
00:35:24
sexuality. That's so sad. >> was a time where people literally believed they could be cured of being
00:35:28
gay. >> was an issue that needed to be cured. >> Yeah. So the rest does seem to be true. He did
00:35:34
meet a nurse at the hospital. Her name was Bonnie Nettles, and she did convince him that he was special, and that God
00:35:39
had a plan for him. And she told him that God's plan was for him to lead a new religious movement in America. Now,
00:35:47
she's a nurse at a psychiatric hospital, correct? >> Correct. Okay. Uh don't do that. Don't do that.
00:35:53
>> If you're a nurse at a psychiatric hospital. >> Step one, don't do that. >> Don't do that.
00:35:57
>> Step two, don't tell your patients that that's their job to lead a new religious
00:36:01
movement in America. Yeah. Write that down. >> I'm going to blanket statement that. I
00:36:06
think that's fair. >> Don't Someone will disagree with you, but I think that's fair.
00:36:09
>> 100% someone will tell me I'm being an [ __ ] for saying that. I stand by this stance. 11 toes down.
00:36:16
This with my whole chest I'm saying it. >> Oh, she literally motions. She said, all
00:36:20
of it. All of it. >> All of it. >> Don't do it. Don't. I request that you >> Don't, because this will happen. And
00:36:26
we're not even halfway through. >> No. So that wasn't all. That wasn't even it. Whatever plan God had for Marshall
00:36:33
Applewhite, she said, "I'm going along with you." >> Oh, yeah. She said, "God wants me,
00:36:38
Bonnie, by your side." >> No. No, Bonnie. >> you, Clyde. Bonnie, how'd you get this
00:36:43
job? >> We, religion. I don't I don't know. I don't think [laughter] they were really doing
00:36:48
Apparently not. Cuz what the [ __ ] Yeah. She's leading them into the fire. Yes,
00:36:54
she sure is. Holy [ __ ] So even though it's been 30 years at this point, and a ton has been written throughout those
00:37:00
years about Heaven's Gate and its founders as well, a lot of the group's history and their evolution is still
00:37:05
kind of a mystery. Obviously, a large part of that is the fact that most of the main members, if not all of them,
00:37:11
died in 1997. But also, according to historian Benjamin Zeller, because the group changed their name, their beliefs,
00:37:18
and their organizational structure a ton of times over two decades. Mhm. Zeller wrote, "These many changes make Heaven's
00:37:26
Gate more difficult to characterize, but they actually reveal something very important. The group demonstrated
00:37:31
flexibility." Yeah, which is very interesting. >> going to say, for a cult, that's not a
00:37:36
commonality with other ones. >> Mhm. So the group that would eventually become known to the world and us right
00:37:42
now as Heaven's Gate started when Marshall was discharged from the hospital and decided to just completely
00:37:48
abandon his old life. Cuz Bonnie told him to. Yeah, he was already divorced. He had already been disowned by his
00:37:54
parents. So he really didn't have a lot to hold on to in Texas. He did have his two children.
00:38:00
>> Thank you. Because I don't know I was like I was like, he does have these two
00:38:04
things. >> I don't know Usually, I'm very quick to be like, "Fuck you if you abandon your
00:38:08
children." And I don't know what the case was, if he like wasn't allowed to see them. Yeah. Because of everything
00:38:14
that was going on. >> That's a valid thought. Who knows? He may very well have abandoned his
00:38:19
children. >> Yeah. But I don't know. So one day, in the mid-'70s, he just abandoned his life,
00:38:24
and he showed up at his sister's house to say his formal goodbyes. His sister Louise remembered he told me
00:38:29
he wasn't going to see us anymore. I said to him, "What's the matter with you? That's not the real you." And his
00:38:34
response was, "You just don't know the real me." And that was the last time that she or
00:38:40
anyone else in her family would ever see or hear from Marshall ever again. That's
00:38:46
really sad. >> It's heartbreaking. Like to have that be so unceremoniously disappearing.
00:38:53
>> And the last words ever spoken to his sister were "You actually don't know the
00:38:57
real me." That's so sad. >> probably like, "Well, I'd like to. Like I'm What the [ __ ] do you mean?"
00:39:03
>> worried about you. Like I care for you. I love you. That's so scary. Yeah. So by
00:39:07
the time Marshall and Bonnie met, which was in the mid-'70s at this point, Bonnie herself had dabbled in various
00:39:13
forms of spirituality, but she hadn't really found the one that fit for her. She'd been raised Baptist, but she was
00:39:18
never devout, and she spent her adult years exploring things like astrology, telepathy, theosophy. Is that how you
00:39:25
say that? Sure. Cool. And that was actually a kind of spiritualism that became popular in later 19th century
00:39:32
England. Okay. >> want to look into that. >> Give it a shot. Even though she hadn't
00:39:35
found anything that felt authentic to her at that point, she was still searching for something. Most likely to
00:39:41
distract herself from her failing marriage and deeply unsatisfying home life. She was over overwhelmed caring for four
00:39:48
young children. I'm going to stay quiet. Yeah. In 1972, Bonnie divorced her husband,
00:39:56
abandoned her children, and embarked on a more deliberate journey of spiritual seeking.
00:40:01
I feel like any higher level that you're going to connect to, like I don't know what's out there. Who am I to say?
00:40:08
I feel like any higher level out there that you want to connect to will probably want you to be connected to
00:40:15
your children. Yeah, I mean, if I was a higher level, I would be pretty judgy if
00:40:18
you abandoned your children. >> Facts. Put that on a shirt. >> That's hypothetical. If I'm a higher
00:40:22
level, I'm judging you for abandoning your children. >> That's if I became a higher level of
00:40:27
being. If. So, when Marshall's sexual frustrations and declining health and mental health merged with Bonnie
00:40:33
Nettles' growing interest in spiritualism, what emerged was what they both called the human individual
00:40:40
metamorphosis. But, their belief was that by pursuing mystical experiences, a person could
00:40:46
transcend their human existence and become a more evolved being. Like, beyond human.
00:40:53
Okay. So, that new religious framework gave them both a worldview that was definitely a lot more hopeful and
00:40:59
exciting than the lives that they had been living for sure. Yeah. But, at the same time, their spiritual bond uh
00:41:05
created a mutually supportive relationship that met all the emotional needs that you would typically find with
00:41:11
a romantic partner. There just wasn't the sexual component that had caused Marshall so much psychological stress in
00:41:17
the past. >> Okay. So, it's a kind of perfect for what they wanted. >> Yeah. In a 1976 interview, Marshall said of
00:41:24
Bonnie, "I felt I had known her forever. It was as if we were being guided by forces greater than ourselves. We were
00:41:30
snatched from our previous lives." It's like, no, you walked away from them. Yeah.
00:41:36
This reminds me of uh the Amy character in True Blood. Yes. It is very that. She absolutely would have
00:41:44
been a part of Heaven's Gate. Yeah. 100%. >> the way they talk and everything. It's
00:41:48
just that just reminds me >> may have She may have founded Heaven's Gate. >> If she was a real person.
00:41:53
>> Yeah, go watch True Blood. Oh, so good. And listen to the rewatcher where we talk about True Blood. We're almost done
00:41:57
with the first season. You better go check it out right now. >> She's just reminding me of her. Uh True
00:42:00
Blood is Sorry, True Blood is also coming up a lot in my life lately. I was listening to Sup the other day, and
00:42:05
Laura was saying that she needs to start watching True Blood again. >> Yeah, she does.
00:42:08
>> like, "I want to rewatch it." >> Rewatch it with us. >> I fast-forwarded because I didn't want
00:42:12
any spoilers. >> Oh, smart. >> But, I was like, "Damn, that's weird that that randomly came up."
00:42:15
>> Yeah. Anyway, throughout the next few years, they both decided to set out to share their new
00:42:20
beliefs because everybody wants to hear about everybody else's beliefs. And not long after meeting, they founded
00:42:25
the Christian Art Center, which was kind of like a combination bookstore {slash}
00:42:29
spiritual center that was in Houston. The store failed after just a few months. >> Wow. So, they moved, and they opened up
00:42:36
the No Place, K N O W. Oh, the No Place. No Place. Be in the know. You come in and they're just like, "No." No. Do you
00:42:43
have a bathroom? >> No. No. But, K N O W. You should know, man. >> It was essentially the same store, just
00:42:49
in a different location, and ultimately lasted about as long and then failed. Weird that that happened. Crazy. When
00:42:55
the No Place The No Place closed its doors, they decided to leave Texas and travel the country to spread the word
00:43:00
even more about their beliefs because it was working out so well for them. >> And here's the thing.
00:43:05
Why don't you just have them? Yeah. Just have the beliefs. >> If you meet people and they ask you, by
00:43:11
all means. >> But, if you're just like going around being like, "Hey, you. I got to tell you
00:43:16
about this form of spiritual higher living. You're going to be evolved and shit." Stop. Just stop.
00:43:22
>> It You want to have them, have them. You want to talk about them, talk about them. Don't go knocking on doors telling
00:43:28
people about it. Don't do Don't intrude into people's lives to tell them that they need to be part of your beliefs.
00:43:34
>> And maybe be sure before you tell a bunch of people that they can evolve into a higher spiritual form. Just
00:43:38
saying. Yeah, you should really Do your research. >> Double-check that. >> Yeah. Like, for sure.
00:43:42
>> Run that through a few schematics before you go saying that that's like a sure
00:43:46
thing. That's just our recommendation. The Morbid Rack. Yep. Wow. Excuse me. Ash just transformed into a higher life
00:43:56
form. >> [laughter] >> You should leave that in. I approve it. Sorry that you had to hear that.
00:44:00
>> She just transcended. >> I was just testing it. I was just double-checking. Before I tell you about
00:44:04
my beliefs, I have to test them. >> [laughter] >> Just kidding. So, after leaving Houston, they spent
00:44:09
years traveling around the US. They gave interviews at this point. They were just
00:44:12
speaking wherever and whenever they could find an appearance or an audience. At first, their message didn't appeal
00:44:18
much to the masses, if you can believe it. But, by the end of 70 Yeah, and by the end of 1973, they had only attracted
00:44:26
one member to their movement. >> To be honest, that's more than I thought they would get.
00:44:30
>> One. It just reminds me of that Full House episode where Jesse invents that thing, and he's like, "3,000 and one."
00:44:36
They're like, "We're a spiritual movement with one." >> [laughter] >> So, they found one. But, soon their
00:44:42
beliefs started to find some traction as, you know, the New Age movement grew in popularity. And by the
00:44:48
>> man. Free love, baby. Movements. Yeah. Movements. >> Movements. By the 1970s, they amassed
00:44:54
more than 200 followers. >> That's way more. It's It's 199 more. By that time, their identities had also
00:45:04
kind of solidified into what they would be for the rest of their lives. They were the two. The two. The two. Who
00:45:14
were two figures described in the Book of Revelations who would witness the end of human civilization and then be born
00:45:21
again. This is so much work. Also, that's as far as I know it. Please don't tell me
00:45:26
all about it. >> Yeah, this is so much work it feels. >> Yeah. The That's the thing with these
00:45:31
cults. It's a lot of upkeep. >> And that's why I know no way, no how would I ever be involved
00:45:37
because I'm like, this is too much. >> It's a You're doing too You're working harder, not smarter.
00:45:43
>> My favorite part though of cults is they're like, "We're the two." Whoever the higher form is told us. But,
00:45:48
eventually, they become something else, too. Of course. >> Like, they are the two, but then they
00:45:52
become Yeah. this and this and not that. >> indoctrinated everyone, so they're able
00:45:57
to change like that, and people just go, "Yep." Yeah. Like >> It's like how Mother God was Yeah. Like
00:46:03
45 different people. Go. >> We We see it happening all over the place. >> If you guys Speaking of cults, I And
00:46:08
this is like a little bit old, but if you haven't watched the Love Has Won documentary, you've got to watch that.
00:46:15
But, I think be warned. It be super, right? It's graphic, and it opens up with a graphic image. Like, there's
00:46:22
There's a body being shown. Yeah, just so you know ahead [clears throat] of time. It's different. But, it's a
00:46:26
really, really interesting documentary. Hmm. But, anyway, back to this cult. Benjamin Zeller noted, "In pinning their
00:46:32
religious identities and and missions on this passage from Revelations, the two had veered from their initial New Age
00:46:38
forays into the apocalyptic millennialism that characterized the conservative evangelical Protestantism
00:46:46
of the time." Okay. >> they were like aligning themselves with some other religious things going on.
00:46:53
Yeah. In layman's terms. Let's go. So, essentially, they would go on to blend their apocalyptic vision with their
00:46:59
belief in aliens and all these unconventional concepts. And the core of their belief system definitely hinted at
00:47:05
the dark outcome for Heaven's Gate. >> Yeah. >> how joyous and transcendent a rebirth
00:47:10
might be, it still required death. Ah, that's the deal breaker. Yeah, that would be my deal breaker if I hadn't
00:47:17
already felt like there was many along the way. >> a few before that. >> That would be the the biggest.
00:47:22
>> what's so sad about this is like the people who are getting roped into this, that's not a deal breaker cuz they're
00:47:28
that unhappy. >> Because they're so lost and sad, down on their luck, and >> Like, that that happened. Something If
00:47:34
that's not the deal breaker, then you have been through it, and you've got a lot going on, and somebody shouldn't be
00:47:41
preying on you. Exactly. >> And that sucks. >> Exactly. So, while the two continued
00:47:45
building out their spiritual belief system, Marshall Applewhite's grandiose sense of self and his psychological
00:47:52
stability continued to shift, change, and decline. As Marshall Applewhite, Texas music
00:47:57
teacher and closeted man, he didn't feel that he was anybody special, and his future was basically bleak as far as he
00:48:04
was concerned. But, as one of the two, he felt he had been chosen by the divine for something more important than
00:48:11
whatever was happening on Earth, and so he started acting like it. In the summer of 1974, while they were
00:48:17
traveling to spread their message, Marshall and Bonnie were both arrested multiple times on charges including
00:48:23
credit card fraud and automobile theft. Jeez. >> And when he was arrested for failing to
00:48:28
return a rental car, Marshall, or one of the two, explained the incident by saying that he had been divinely
00:48:35
authorized to keep the vehicle. That's That's honestly just [ __ ] behavior. Um Can you imagine just trying to get
00:48:42
away with all your poor behavior as >> Yeah, that's I can I can steal this because I've been divinely authorized.
00:48:46
>> I can steal this because I've been divinely authorized to. Like, co- come on. Come on. Also, that's not going to
00:48:52
hold up in a court of law, baby. Nobody cares about the divine. It is. >> So, the late 70s was definitely
00:48:59
transformational for both of the two. They abandoned their previous moniker though of the two, and they started
00:49:04
referring to each other as Bo and Peep. That's for real. That's when you know people were really
00:49:12
[ __ ] >> under this. Cuz when they when they It's almost like they changed that to see if how how
00:49:21
strong the hold was. >> that, and I think they were getting so lost in all of this that they were There
00:49:28
was no tie to reality at this point in time. >> And the same At the same time, and this
00:49:33
is how I know that, their mythology and beliefs were also evolving. They seemed to include like especially now at this
00:49:39
point all of their ideology seem to include a more like science fiction based concept.
00:49:45
>> Okay. For example, in 1975 they convinced their small group of followers because people had dropped off at that
00:49:50
point in time that a spaceship was coming to Earth and it would only take 30 of them.
00:49:56
So they all camped out in Oregon waiting for the ship to arrive but it didn't. And then so they were like oh we had our
00:50:04
calculations wrong because cults do that a lot. And then they repeated the claim
00:50:08
a few months later and again the ship didn't come. This is definitely where they got the
00:50:17
the cult from Parks and Rec. The one who changes the time that the spaceship's going to come or Zorp is
00:50:24
going to come. >> I don't know if I made it that far in Parks and Rec. I got it.
00:50:27
>> Aren't they called the Rationalists? The Rationalists? There's something like
00:50:31
that. It's like and they they named themselves that so nobody could argue with it because it's rational.
00:50:36
>> [laughter] >> That's incredible. I'm making sure. And they change the time of day.
00:50:41
>> No they're the Reasonablists. >> That's what it is. Cuz you can't argue with somebody who's reasonable. And they
00:50:47
change they >> change the date of the time when Zorp is going to come and destroy everybody or
00:50:53
take everybody into cuz they like are going to be like risen up and ascended. >> Yeah yeah. They change it and they just
00:50:59
keep changing it like every every time he >> doesn't show up they're just like well
00:51:04
Zorp is coming next time That's the same thing as like the um What was the thing that just happened?
00:51:09
The rapture? The rapture. Yeah that changes all the it's always rapture season. >> all about moving the goal post you know.
00:51:15
>> Yeah. And that's this reminds me of it though that they're like well they didn't show up it's next month.
00:51:20
>> next month. That's literally the Reasonablists. Yeah. They're just not reasonable. Yeah. Organize it Zorp.
00:51:27
That's what he wrote a book about it. Oh I I've heard that before. I got to finish Parks and Rec.
00:51:33
>> it's great. >> Parks and Rec. So when the spaceship failed to arrive a lot of people among their followers
00:51:38
started to feel like this was all a bit of malarkey and they left the group. Good for them. And they [clears throat]
00:51:42
that dropped Bonnie and Marshall or excuse me Bo and Peep's numbers from over a hundred to just a few dozen at
00:51:48
that point. I hope those people like went to get help and like got I hope their lives got better. Yeah exactly. I
00:51:57
hope this was an experience and they can just go wow. That was crazy. I hope it was like when
00:52:02
Mr. Matthews saves Shawn Hunter from the cult and Shawn realizes that it's can't
00:52:07
have Shawn and I said oh my god Mr. I said >> [laughter] >> Mr. Matthews. That was when I was like
00:52:14
wow Mr. Matthews. We've talked about I think every time we talk about a cult we're like Mr. Matthews. [laughter]
00:52:22
It's that this really is like I hope it was like that for them. >> it was and I hope Mr. Matthews showed up
00:52:28
on the spot and was like the spaceship didn't come and you're coming with us baby.
00:52:31
>> they can't have you. >> No we're going to feed you dinner tonight. >> really do. I hope they all like lived
00:52:36
happier lives. >> I do too. I hope this was like a a growing moment. >> Yeah I'm sure it was.
00:52:42
So in addition to the mass exodus of people who I definitely know lived a happier life
00:52:46
>> Yeah I'm going with that. >> things took a turn for the worse when the press got involved and started
00:52:50
accusing the two leaders of brainwashing. Yeah a grift sparkle sparkle. A grift exactly.
00:52:56
At a time when concerns about the danger of cults was beginning to spread around
00:52:59
the US nothing could have been more harmful to their movement. So in response Bonnie Bonnie Nettles announced
00:53:05
in 1976 that the group would no longer hold public meetings and instead they shifted their focus to giving private
00:53:12
lectures. Oh okay. I said wow. You know what? That'll teach everyone. How cool of you.
00:53:18
So the Human Individual Metamorphosis Movement continued into the 80s with the small group of followers expanding and
00:53:24
contracting year after year. They picked some up they dropped some off. They picked some up they dropped them off.
00:53:29
>> Mhm. But they never reached more than a hundred members. During that period Bonnie and Marshall
00:53:34
who had rebranded yet again and were now going by the names of T and Do Oh yeah.
00:53:41
>> they developed a kind of paranoia that grew out of their apocalyptic beliefs.
00:53:45
Okay. Among other things they worried that either they or somebody amongst their group was going to be
00:53:51
assassinated. >> Oh. Obviously that fear was influenced by Jonestown. Yeah. But the group
00:53:56
continued traveling around the US for a few years living off whatever money its members had picked up and picking up new
00:54:02
members here and there. At first the structure of the group was informal but over time it did start to
00:54:07
take on a more rigid form. Marshall demanded that if members were going to travel with them they had to cut
00:54:13
themselves off entirely from their families and fully abandon their previous lives. I that's that's the
00:54:21
that's the red flag. Yeah. That's it right there. And here's some more. Oh no. >> In time they dictated what people ate
00:54:28
what they wore and most importantly what kind of relationships they could have. Oh.
00:54:34
>> And they informed everybody that if they wanted to ascend to a higher plane quote
00:54:38
unquote they could not engage in any kind of sexual relationship with another. Okay.
00:54:44
Yeah. >> Okay. So the first sign of like >> This doesn't seem healthy. No it's definitely not. The first sign of real
00:54:52
real trouble came in 1985 after Bonnie Nettles died from liver cancer. Oh. For over 10 years at that point she and
00:54:59
Marshall had been codependent and fully expected to receive their celestial awards rewards together.
00:55:05
But Bonnie's death obviously caused Marshall to spiral even deeper into his delusional thinking and he had a
00:55:11
full-blown crisis of faith. In the years that followed the group bounced around the Southwest
00:55:17
occasionally adding new members but mostly losing them. And all at that time Marshall's beliefs and expectations got
00:55:24
much more rigid. >> Mhm. By 1993 the members of him just so we don't have to say the full thing
00:55:29
every time had dropped to just a few dozen. So in June Marshall placed an ad in USA Today to try to recruit new
00:55:36
members. I actually had no idea that that happened. I didn't know that. Dave found this piece of information and I
00:55:42
said qua? Excuse me Dave. I said Dave what? >> Dave what? >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Well that marked the first time
00:55:49
the members of Heaven's Gate used a computer to grow their organization. Ah. And it turned out that not only was the
00:55:55
incorporation of technology a useful and convenient tool but it also fit very well within their science fiction
00:56:01
adjacent belief system. Oh yeah it does. So in the fall of 95 the remaining members of what eventually became
00:56:08
Heaven's Gate rented a property in a remote part of New Mexico but for some reason they abandoned that compound and
00:56:14
then in that that October they moved to the San Diego County area. >> Oh okay. [laughter]
00:56:19
At first they lived in various homes and that was before the remaining 40 or so members finally settled at the $7,000 a
00:56:28
month ranch mansion excuse me in Rancho Santa Fe. >> I wonder why they abandoned that other
00:56:33
one. Yeah I'm not sure. Huh. Who knows maybe the ship like wasn't coming there. Yeah
00:56:38
maybe. I wonder if it had anything to do actually with the Hale-Bopp comet. Oh make the path. They were following the
00:56:44
path. Yeah but $7,000 a month back then. >> wild. I mean yeah. $7,000 a month is
00:56:50
wild. >> Yeah. So it was during that period that they started their web design and IT business
00:56:55
that I mentioned earlier. That was Higher Source Contract Enterprises. And it was also during those last years
00:57:00
as news of the approaching Hale-Bopp comet started making the rounds on the news programs that Marshall started
00:57:06
planning the quote unquote final phase of his mythology exiting Earth for the next level.
00:57:14
Oh you just wish everybody could have seen and you wonder how many people knew this is complete and utter
00:57:20
dog [ __ ] but they literally just wanted to die. It's and felt like this was an
00:57:27
like a more community based moment of everybody doing it together which made it not as scary.
00:57:33
>> Yeah and maybe >> I always think of is like how sad is that? That's the thing and maybe just
00:57:37
like almost let themselves believe it but like somewhere in their minds knew that
00:57:42
this was not it. Like if it some of them had just this is what they wanted to do
00:57:46
and it made it less scary. Yeah. Like it's just really sad. It is really sad. >> Really sad. Well in the wake of the
00:57:53
deaths in Rancho Santa Fe like at the mansion two other members who had already left the compound by that point
00:58:00
also ended their own lives. >> Wow. One in May and the other in February of the following year because
00:58:05
it I can't imagine knowing that these 39 people who you who basically were family
00:58:11
Yeah. Like cuz they like lived together >> together they worked together they eat
00:58:15
together they do everything together. You do form human bonds. Of course. >> You find out that 39 of the people who
00:58:21
you were closest to over the last few years all died at once. Like I don't know how
00:58:26
you digest that. >> And that they all continued believing this thing so much that they went
00:58:31
through with it. One part of them if they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed enough are
00:58:36
probably thinking wait am I missing out? Right. Right? And can I go with them? Yeah. If
00:58:41
I do this like it's just [ __ ] up. But that meant that of the 42 members of Heaven's Gate who followed Marshall
00:58:47
Applewhite to California the only one who remained alive was Richard Ford. >> Holy [ __ ]
00:58:53
>> started talking about in the beginning. >> That's wild. One member. So within a few
00:58:58
weeks of the discovery at the house the medical examiner's office had managed to
00:59:01
identify all but one of those who died in the Heaven's Gate compound. >> god. >> 39th person. We'll post everybody's
00:59:09
name. Yeah for sure. So the families were all notified of the deaths by the sheriff's department obviously. But by
00:59:14
then this is so sad most of them had already received letters or videos from their estranged loved ones explaining
00:59:21
what they were going to do or what they had already done at that point. That's chilling as hell. Which it's similar to
00:59:27
the letter and the video that Richard received. >> Yeah. In almost every case the members of
00:59:32
Heaven's were excited about what they believed to be the next phase of their lives, too. Damn. According to Benjamin
00:59:38
Zeller, members understood their actions not as deaths, but as graduations, cutting aside the decaying matter of
00:59:43
Earth so as to free their true selves to journey to the next level in the heavens. Wow. As far as they were
00:59:49
concerned, to reject what Marshall believed was the final phase actually would have been the real tragedy. Wow.
00:59:57
Which is just That's unthinkable. >> That's exactly what I was just going to say.
01:00:01
In a video message on Heaven's Gate website, Marshall Applewhite insisted that those left behind shouldn't feel
01:00:06
sad for the members of the group. He said that they were excited to be shedding their containers and leaving
01:00:12
this planet for a more evolved existence elsewhere. Wow. Which like gives me Goosebumps.
01:00:19
>> Now, obviously members of Heaven's Gate throughout the years were pretty frequently dismissed as being crazy or
01:00:24
having been brainwashed by Marshall and Bonnie. But Benjamin Zeller said that's honestly far too simplistic of a
01:00:30
reaction. He wrote, "It's just too easy to dismiss them as nuts. Members joined not because of some sort of magical,
01:00:36
psychological, or spiritual truth that the leaders conjured, but because they were looking for something and believed
01:00:42
they found it in Heaven's Gate." Which is exactly what you've been pointing out this whole time.
01:00:47
>> In his recollection of his time with the group in 1975, Robert uh Balch wrote, "Once I got to
01:00:53
know the people, I realized they were not just members of some exotic cult, but ordinary people struggling to find
01:00:58
meaning in their lives." Which is so [ __ ] sad. >> He said, "Overall, they weren't much
01:01:03
different from me or my friends." >> And that aligns with the statements that Richard Ford gave in the wake of the
01:01:08
tragedy. He said, "I was always looking for answers, looking for purpose in my life. I loved these people and it meant
01:01:14
everything to me." Wow. Since he left the group in '97, Richard Ford, who has since changed his name, obviously
01:01:20
struggled to find normalcy in his life. But in a 2017 interview, he said, "I tried to get a job and people wouldn't
01:01:26
hire me because they thought I was part of some crazy thing." Luckily though, in time he did manage to
01:01:32
put his life back together and he ended up reconnecting with his family. >> Oh, see, I'm happy. And he eventually
01:01:37
reflected and said, "I'm a regular guy. I'm trying to be more of myself and a better person in every way that I can."
01:01:43
Well, that's the best outcome. >> What's the best outcome for the one surviving member? For the one person.
01:01:49
>> Holy [ __ ] >> is the tragic story of Heaven's Gate. That's unbelievable. >> It really is. I knew
01:01:58
like the basics. I did, too. >> the Hale-Bopp comet and that they were all found with Nikes. Like the more
01:02:03
salacious aspects. >> the things that people really like attached. >> Right. But I didn't really know about
01:02:07
Marshall Applewhite or I didn't even know that there was a Bonnie Nettles. >> Yeah, I remember hearing that word that
01:02:13
word that name. But I didn't know the details of all that. >> know she played such a significant role
01:02:19
and just Wow. how far back this all dated. These kind of cults They're scary. That's why like we haven't
01:02:27
covered Jonestown. I know. That's actually crazy that we haven't >> it's such an upsetting one. Well, we
01:02:33
will eventually, but like Jonestown is so it's so upsetting. >> People did it like gave their kids the
01:02:40
drink. Like there's baby like But it's also so interesting that there's like political Yeah, political [ __ ] and that
01:02:46
like that one goes in definite many different directions. >> Yeah, I think we briefly talked about it
01:02:51
on a crime countdown. >> But that would be an interesting one. >> This one always fascinated me because it
01:02:55
was such like a I remember it being talked about on the news. I remember those kind of things
01:03:01
and I remember seeing the Nike shoes and I remember like those like iconic pictures of you can just see the feet.
01:03:07
>> Uh-huh. And I remember it being like and it was all science fictiony and like
01:03:11
>> And it involved the comet. >> mysterious and weird and the comet was involved and that was such a big thing
01:03:15
when it was happening and it was like so shrouded in all this like weird of the time stuff.
01:03:21
>> Yeah. But I that's all I knew of it. But hearing all the details, it's just [ __ ] sad.
01:03:26
>> It is just sad. It's just people like literally like the somebody who was involved with them just said, "I was
01:03:31
looking for answers and purpose in my life." Yeah. >> know that's all anybody else that was
01:03:36
involved in this was looking for. Purpose and answers and Exactly. uh like something better. Yeah.
01:03:42
>> It's just really sad. >> Damn. But it makes me happy that the one member who really got away before
01:03:48
everything happened like figured out his life. >> And he feels like he's trying to be more
01:03:52
who he is. And a better person and that he like reconnected with his family. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy for that.
01:03:57
>> I know. Damn. Let me find a fun fact before we end this. >> [snorts] >> man. >> I I better find the funnest facts.
01:04:04
>> Find the most fun. Funnest facts ever, I'm Googling. It's not the funnest fact,
01:04:08
but it's a fun one. The bumblebee bat is the world's smallest flying mammal. Shut
01:04:14
up. >> Yeah. They weigh between .05 and .07 oz. Oh my god, it's the cutest thing I've ever seen. Oh, I
01:04:23
love them. Their head-to-body length is literally between Get away Get out of here, ad.
01:04:29
Their head-to-body length is between 1.14 to 1.29 in. Oh, >> Oh, he's just a baby. Oh my god. Look at
01:04:37
him. I love them. >> god, I want a bumblebee bat. I love them. >> That's the most fun fact.
01:04:43
>> Okay, I'm so glad. You're welcome. >> you put it together with a picture. >> We'll post a picture and it will be so
01:04:48
confusing to anybody who doesn't stay for the fun fact, but we will post a picture. I'm screaming. I'm screaming.
01:04:56
>> They're also known as Kitty's hog-nosed bat. No, I know. I love them. I'm literally obsessed with them. Look at
01:05:04
this. Look at this guy. He is doing his best. He is out here doing his [laughter]
01:05:09
best. I want one. Oh, I love him. >> Oh, all right. Go look at those and and don't tell other people how to live
01:05:17
their lives. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So but I'm going to tell you how to live your live your
01:05:22
life. Uh we hope you keep listening. And we hope you >> Keep it weird. >> Bye. Oh, but not so weird that Um I was
01:05:30
like, what? Not so weird that cults because don't cult Don't cult. Cult bad. Yeah. Bumblebee good. For Yes.
01:05:36
>> Bumblebee bat better. Oh my god, I love them so much. Bye. They're so little.
01:05:47
>> [music] >> Aw. >> [music] >> Aw. Aw. >> [music] >> Aw. Aw. Aw. >> [music] >> Aw.
01:06:14
Aw. Aw. Aw. >> [music] >> Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw. >> [music] >> Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw.
01:06:48
>> [music] >> Aw. Aw. >> [music] >> Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw. Aw.