00:00:00
Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alina. And this is Morbid. Hello. Wait, before we get into anything, this
00:00:34
is not what we planned. So, hi. Ooh, what's what's happening? No, I was just going to say, I just
00:00:38
realized we've been doing Morbid for 4 years. I know, that is really wild. That's like bonkers.com.
00:00:44
I know, it feels like a hundred years and 2 minutes. All at the same time. same time.
00:00:50
it feels like this has always been like our stick, our thing that we did we do together.
00:00:55
Like I don't remember life before and and I also feel like it just started. Yeah, it's a weird-ass feeling.
00:01:02
It is. It's it's been very weird, but very awesome. Very great. Very great. And you know what?
00:01:08
Um, speaking of very great things, uh, you guys have really liked the Butcher and the Wren playlist that I made. If
00:01:15
you didn't like it, I would question your sanity, to be honest, cuz we listen to that playlist in the car a lot and
00:01:21
it's pretty bomb. I it was really fun to make. I made it a long time ago, actually. Like I made it well before the
00:01:28
book was coming out. It was just something I made to get me in the mood for writing. I was like
00:01:32
to say, cuz it was like your writing playlist. Yeah, and it was just like things that I
00:01:36
pictured in the book and everything. So, when it came time to be like, "Hey, you
00:01:40
can share this with everybody." It was like, "Ooh, fun." But also like kind of terrifying, because it's like this is
00:01:46
how I see the whole thing. But you guys have been awesome and it seems like you guys have really dug it and I appreciate
00:01:52
it and you guys rule. And I literally can't wait until September 13th for you to read this book, because I just can't
00:01:58
wait. I can't wait, guys. excited. I'm so excited. You guys have been so [ __ ] amazing.
00:02:05
And yeah. I'm just really excited. I'm going on a little road trip, uh, in a couple weeks and I'm going to bring your
00:02:10
book along for the ride, so that I can finally finish it, cuz I've read the first like few chap- I've basically read
00:02:15
the whole book, cuz I got to read it while you were writing it. And I've read the first few chapters, but then I've
00:02:20
I've been like a little busy. I mean, I've been a little busy. busy, but I I want to finish your book,
00:02:25
you know. Yeah, sorry. No, I'm not. I have and I'm going to and I'm going to And then can you write
00:02:32
another one? Yeah. Really? Yeah, I already I'm already writing something else. Oh.
00:02:39
Hot take, everybody. I'm already writing something else, so stay tuned. There's like a couple times a year that
00:02:45
I wish this podcast was visual and that was one of them, cuz I was just like Cuz you were like, "Ho ho ho." But it's
00:02:50
not happening, so don't ask. No, I'm just kidding. No, we're not doing visual. No, no, because if you saw what
00:02:55
we both look like right now, holy eye bags, Batman. And what we're wearing right now is really very much who we are
00:03:02
as people. Yeah, I know we're like not supposed to banter, but we're only 2 minutes and 48 seconds in. So, I'll
00:03:09
describe Alina's sweatshirt. No. We were on the phone with my grandma and I said, "That's hot." because I am
00:03:15
wearing a, um, Simple Life t-shirt that has is. Paris and Nicole on it. Drew got it
00:03:19
to for me for Christmas and it it's my favorite shirt. It's like them in like the overalls, like the farmer picture.
00:03:25
Yeah, like that farmer picture and it just says The Simple Life and Tinkerbell's on it, too, and that makes
00:03:29
me happy. Aw. And then so like I said, "That's hot." to my grandma and I was like, "Oh, that's cuz I'm wearing like
00:03:35
my Paris Hilton shirt." And she was like, "Oh, and what's Alina wearing?" And I was like, "Um, my grandma doesn't
00:03:41
know what Stranger Things is." So, I was like, "She's wearing the shirt where a girl is meditating over her friends who
00:03:47
are sitting in a circle in a graveyard. Um, they're a little concerned about her, but don't worry, cuz Max's favorite
00:03:52
song, Running Up That Hill, is playing." by Kate Bush. It's a great sweatshirt. I'll post a photo of it. And I'll link
00:03:59
the Etsy shop that I got it from, because they were great. And it's a very comfortable sweatshirt.
00:04:04
Oh, hey, it's an Etsy shirt day, cuz I think Drew said he got this off of Etsy. There you go. Cool. Well, and I know a
00:04:09
lot of a lot of you are like me and you're obsessed with Stranger Things and I know that this is something that a lot
00:04:15
of you will like, so I'll post it, so you guys can scoop one, because I don't know what it is about white, uh,
00:04:21
sweatshirts. They're always the most comfortable. I don't know what it is. Alina and I have a theory going that
00:04:26
there's some kind of science behind a white sweatshirt, cuz I recently bought one from the Giggly Squad podcast, which
00:04:31
does say, "I hate men." I don't hate all men, but, you know, it's a cute sweatshirt and it's so comfy and it's
00:04:37
white and I think there's some kind of science behind that. There is. There's got to be some kind of
00:04:41
science. It's comfy, because you'll never wear it, because you'll get it dirty. There
00:04:45
you go. That's what it is. It's the forbidden fruit. So, that's been the fashion segment of today and now we
00:04:51
should always have one of those. I think we're ready to jump right into it now. We are. We are going to start in kind of
00:04:57
a weird place. Today, we're going to be talking about the disappearance, the abduction of Heidi Allen, but we're
00:05:03
going to start in a little bit of a place that we usually wouldn't start at, which is the search for the missing
00:05:08
person that we're talking about. Okay, Heidi Allen. So, Richard Thibodeau had become
00:05:13
involved in the search for Heidi Allen, because he was one of the last people to
00:05:17
see her alive. Heidi vanished from the DNW convenience store and gas station on Easter morning
00:05:22
in 1994. And Richard had come in that morning to grab a couple packs of cigarettes before
00:05:28
he and his family, you know, went about their day to celebrate Easter. So, Heidi
00:05:32
rang up this transaction. This would be the last transaction of the day at 7:42 a.m.
00:05:38
And according to Richard, you know, the two of them wished each other a good day, maybe said happy Easter, and he
00:05:43
headed back out to his van and headed home. Now, later that day, he realized Heidi
00:05:48
had gone missing. So, he called into the police to let them know he had been at the DNW that morning. So, the police
00:05:54
come out to his girlfriend's family's house to take his statement. All very routine.
00:05:59
His statement was pretty normal. He said after he bought his cigarettes, they went home, then he got ready with his
00:06:05
family, his girlfriend and she had two kids and they were like super close. Like it was a super close family unit.
00:06:11
They get ready, they go to her family's house and as they drive by the DNW, they
00:06:15
see that there is some police presence and they're like, "Oh." Just like kind of in passing comment to each other, "I
00:06:21
wonder what's going on there." but don't think too much of it. Yeah. Until they see the news segment.
00:06:26
Oof. So, his girlfriend, Teresa, and her family, they were like, "Richard, you got to call the police. You know, maybe
00:06:32
you saw something that you don't think is helpful, but will become helpful to the investigation."
00:06:36
Yeah. And so, the police are trying to talk to everybody who was there that day, rule them out as suspects. But the
00:06:43
police weren't so sure that they should rule Richard out as a suspect. Ooh. Because they had received a tip
00:06:48
from a guy that, uh, called Chris Bivens. He, interestingly enough, was actually dating one of Richard's family
00:06:54
members. Oh. Now, Chris said he remembered driving by the DNW store that Easter morning. He said it was sometime after
00:07:02
8:00 a.m. And he said as he was driving by, he saw two men arguing with a girl out front. And then 2 days later, he
00:07:09
called back and remembered that the trio were arguing next to a two-toned van. Okay. Who owned a two-toned van? Who?
00:07:17
Rich Thibodeau. Uh-oh. So, when Richard arrives at one of the first searches following
00:07:22
Heidi's abduction, the investigators, they pull him to the side and they're like, "Hey, can you fill out this form?
00:07:28
Just going to ask you a bunch of questions about your story, you know, the investigation, what you think
00:07:33
happened, what you would do. And, you know, it's really just to rule you out as a suspect. So, just go ahead, fill
00:07:38
this out. Let us know when you're done." So, he's like, "Okay, I'm going to fill
00:07:41
it out the best I can." Finishes up, hands it over. And the investigators are like, "Okay, cool. Thanks. Would you and
00:07:48
Teresa, your girlfriend, mind coming down to the station and answering some more questions?" So, they're like,
00:07:53
"Sure." Definitely hairs are starting to rise on the back of the neck, getting a
00:07:57
little nervous, but they agree. Yeah. They would be at the station much longer than they anticipated that night. And
00:08:04
that night would mark the start of a confusing web of an investigation, a takedown of two men in this county and
00:08:11
just years, like close to 30 years with unanswered questions. But before we dive into that, you need
00:08:18
to know about the girl who vanished, Heidi Allen. So, Heidi Allen, first of all, she just
00:08:24
seems like the tits. Like she seems awesome. Of course. She was born September 14th, 1975 in New Haven, New
00:08:31
York. Her parents were Ken and Sue Allen and she was like the quintessential Virgo. She had all her ducks in a row.
00:08:38
I love it. Her family was like super close. Most of them actually lived on the same street. And her sister, Lisa,
00:08:44
remembers growing up with Heidi and just how sweet she was. She said that she would share her lunch at school with
00:08:49
kids who didn't have enough. Aw. Like she remembered a specific instance when Heidi got home and was like super
00:08:54
hungry. She was in elementary school, she was super little. She was like, "Oh, I'm so hungry." and they're like, "Why
00:08:58
are you so hungry? You had lunch at school." And she was like, "No, I shared, cuz like so-and-so didn't have
00:09:03
enough." god, what a sweetie. Right? And that young to just have that inside of you. Exactly. And then when she got
00:09:09
older, she became an intern at the elementary school and this was something she was doing because her goal one day
00:09:15
was to become either a teacher or like a children's counselor. Mhm. So, she's an
00:09:19
intern at the elementary school and she forms this club for all the kids who have divorced parents and she calls it
00:09:25
the Banana Splits. Stop it. And it's just so that they can all have a place where they can go and talk about how
00:09:32
they're feeling and just know that they're there were other kids in their situation that they could relate to.
00:09:36
That's so emotionally mature. And mind you, she was 18 at the time she disappeared, so she was probably like 17
00:09:43
or 18. That's really emotionally mature. Yeah. And the Banana Splits. So cute. Oh my god. Right? Adorable. And
00:09:52
she was also known as a bit of a tomboy. She that's exactly how she described herself and her sport of choice was
00:09:57
volleyball. She actually played on her high school team and actually she was pretty tall. She was 5'11" and she was
00:10:03
also just super talented on the court. Get it, Heidi. So she became known to her teammates as the tower of power.
00:10:10
Hell yeah. Isn't that awesome? Hell yeah, she did. Now so she's working hard in school. She shared her lunch
00:10:16
with other kids. She's making sure like children of divorced parents have a place and outlet where they can talk.
00:10:21
Killing it at volleyball. And on top of that, she's doing all this other stuff. But first I have to tell you she was
00:10:28
absolutely beautiful. Yeah, she was. Like beautiful. She had piercing blue eyes but the older like when she was a
00:10:35
baby but the older she got they turned hazel. Oh, I love that. It reminds me of one of your little
00:10:40
Yeah, one of my babes is doing that right now. And I read this and I was like like it just like hit home for a
00:10:45
second. Now she had like this sandy brown hair. It was like kind of blonde. It was like bronde blonde and brown.
00:10:52
And she wore it super curly. I'm pretty sure she got perms that like and she saved up the money and paid her for her
00:10:57
perms herself. That was the look. Oh, you always know what I'm about to say. I said she had
00:11:03
the perfect 90s look. There you go. Now like it's true we say this all the time but and it's just true
00:11:09
regarding everyone we say it about. She just seems like somebody that you would want to be friends with.
00:11:14
Yeah. Like she had these kind eyes. She had the super sweet smile. She had dimples like just want to be your
00:11:19
friend. And she just seemed genuinely sweet. And on top of that like I was just saying she was super smart and she
00:11:26
was determined to set goals and follow through on them. In a tiny apartment in Southern
00:11:38
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00:12:19
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mvmt.com/morbid. Again, that's mvmt.com/morbid. So her senior year she was actually
00:13:31
taking extra classes at the local community college so that she could graduate not only with her diploma but
00:13:37
also her associate's so that she could get a head start on the degree that she wanted to earn which was in human
00:13:43
services. That's amazing. This girl is just like truly doing it all. Yeah. Now by the time she was getting
00:13:49
close to graduating high school and basically almost finishing her associate's, she had filled out more
00:13:55
than 150 applications for jobs in her field. Wow. And she would share that she was willing to do whatever it took to
00:14:01
get the job. They actually found one of the applications that she had filed and on it it said, "I'm willing to work from
00:14:08
the bottom to do anything. I love this field and I'll start anywhere." That's amazing. That's somebody who's like in a
00:14:15
job for the right reasons. Like wants to do this, knows that they might not be able to do exactly what they want right
00:14:21
away and is willing to climb the ladder to get there. And that's somebody that's
00:14:25
going to go far because somebody who understands that nine times out of 10 you got to start on the bottom rung of
00:14:33
the ladder Yeah. to get where you want and they're willing to hustle that way. They're the
00:14:38
ones that are going to work to get there. Totally. Yeah. And she was she was like putting
00:14:42
in work every single place she went it seemed. She'd been working at the D&W since she was 16 years old all while
00:14:49
doing school and everything else at the same time. So she wasn't just paying for perms. She
00:14:54
actually used some of the money that she made at work to buy herself her own car
00:14:58
which was a maroon Pontiac Sunbird station wagon. Yes. Yes, like very of the time.
00:15:04
Amazing. But it was unfortunately still parked in the parking lot of the D&W when the police arrived after hearing
00:15:11
that Heidi had gone missing. You always forget like you were just telling me how awesome she was and I'm
00:15:15
like, "Man, she just sounds great." And then I completely forgot that this is why we're here. Right. That's That's the
00:15:20
thing that sucks is like you find out so much about these people and you relate to them
00:15:25
Mhm. find like like the hazel eyes. Like you find a little something and you're like, "Oh, cool." And then
00:15:30
you're like, "Oh." yeah. hurts. Like your heart sinks. Cuz you're like this person like
00:15:35
you can never get to know this person. This person was never able to live to their full potential.
00:15:39
No. Yeah, it just sucks. goals and dreams that they set for themselves were taken away from by
00:15:44
somebody else. By some idiot. So Heidi actually wasn't even supposed to be working that morning which speaks to
00:15:50
her character even more. She had switched shifts with a co-worker so that that co-worker could spend time with her
00:15:56
family that Easter morning. Wow, okay. Yeah. So Heidi's just a wonderful wonderful human. She is. She
00:16:02
celebrated Easter with her family the day before and she handed out presents to all her family members while she sang
00:16:08
like songs from Peter Cottontail. So stop it. It's so pure. You're breaking my heart here.
00:16:13
I know. It's I was reading and I was just like, "Oh my god." It just got heavier and heavier.
00:16:19
Now so that would obviously be the last Easter that Heidi got to spend with her family and for the next 28 years the
00:16:26
town of New Haven would question what really happened that Easter morning. But before we get into everything else I do
00:16:32
just want to share a quote from Heidi's sister Lisa that just describes Heidi to
00:16:36
a T. And doesn't Lisa have a podcast? Lisa does have a podcast and it's called One Sister's Journey {dot} {dot} {dot}
00:16:44
Keeping It Real. Oh, nice. I love it. Yeah. So she said that out. Yeah, definitely go check that out. And
00:16:50
she said of her sister, "I want people to know that she was a good kid. She was one of the most joyful and selfless
00:16:55
people and I can only imagine she would have been an even more beautiful adult. She just wasn't given that opportunity."
00:17:01
That's horrific. It is. And like I think of you when I read that. Like you're like Exactly.
00:17:07
imagine just like having to talk about my family member like that. Cuz you live your whole life with your
00:17:12
family members especially if you get along with your family members which we do.
00:17:16
Yeah, sitting there and thinking like man like I always say I'm like man like even my kids I'm always like man I can't
00:17:21
wait to see what kind of adults they are. Like it's just going to be like a fun thing to watch them become the
00:17:26
person they're going to become and it's like Right. her sister was like oh you know
00:17:31
like it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of adult she is. And you when you that gets just like taken
00:17:36
away Right. and you're like I never get to see that. And I knew how great you were going to
00:17:40
be. Like I knew you were going to like move mountains. I just can't imagine feeling that. Like I feel it in my heart
00:17:45
a little bit. Yeah, it does it like hurts. And we feel it on a level that's so far
00:17:49
away. Like Yeah. from the actual people. It's It's just awful. It's just really sad. So that morning in
00:17:55
1994 honestly it started off pretty normal. It was rainy and the roads weren't in a great condition to drive on
00:18:01
so Heidi's boyfriend Brett actually followed behind her as she opened up the store that morning.
00:18:06
That's sweet. They had been dating for years at this point and over the years like people thought it was weird that
00:18:11
sometimes he would open the store with her. Like he would sit and watch her open the store. But it I think like
00:18:17
people were trying to say it seemed controlling but I think he was doing it in a sweet gesture kind of way of making
00:18:22
sure you know this is a convenience store. Like it's not place in the world and she's a young girl by herself. Yeah.
00:18:28
I think he's just making sure that not she doesn't run into any trouble. Yeah, I mean I can say like I could see John
00:18:34
doing that in not a controlling way and I just want to make sure you're okay. Yeah, 100%.
00:18:40
Because when I like when I would work like I like nights at the hospital he was a basket case worried and there were
00:18:48
times when he was like, "Let me just drive you in and pick you up." Like I don't want you to drive by yourself. I
00:18:53
don't want you to It wasn't because he was like, "I need to control you." It's like I just want to make sure you're
00:18:57
okay and I'm worried about you. Exactly. So to me that's what that feels like cuz
00:19:00
That's definitely what I think it was. Opening a convenience store is like that that's like a risky job to have.
00:19:05
Convenience stores get robbed all the time. Like that's a really scary job to have a lot of the times so it makes
00:19:12
sense. Yeah, exactly. I I think he was just being a sweet kid. It comes off that way to me. And by all
00:19:17
accounts they were very much in love. Brett would later say that Heidi would drive completely out of her way just to
00:19:22
give him a kiss good night. Oh my god. And she would help him iron his clothes. Adorable. Like and they planned to start
00:19:29
having kids together once they were in their 30s. I am obsessed with them. Like they seemed very much in love and
00:19:35
by all accounts it seemed like Heidi loved loved him. Yeah. So they made their way inside the store. They opened
00:19:41
up right around 5:45 a.m. Brett stuck around I think for about an hour it seems as Heidi got everything set up and
00:19:47
once people kind of started rolling in getting coffees and scratch tickets and siggies all that Mhm. Heidi seemed like
00:19:53
she was good to go, so Brett gave her a kiss, and he said, "I'll see you in the afternoon." Because they had plans to
00:19:59
celebrate Easter with his family that afternoon. Now, after that last transaction at 7:42
00:20:05
a.m., a few more people actually came in and out of the store. And the police knew this because some customers had
00:20:10
left money on the counter in good faith for whatever they purchased. But finally
00:20:15
though, somebody realized that the clerk hadn't stepped outside for just a second, she was gone. She was nowhere to
00:20:20
be found. Now, as this person is realizing this just by happenstance, a sheriff's patrol
00:20:26
car was passing by. It was right around 8:15 a.m. And somebody at the store kind
00:20:31
of motioned him to come into the parking lot. Now, this person told the cop that
00:20:34
the D&W seemed open, but there was nobody around, and the situation just seemed off.
00:20:40
So, the cop steps inside, and he notes that there's cash on the counter, there's cash in the register, the
00:20:45
register's still there. There were signs that somebody had been working that morning, because behind the counter sat
00:20:51
Heidi's jacket, her purse, and her keys. And like I said, her car was parked right out front.
00:20:56
Yeah. Now, her family was called straight away. And when her cousin Melissa, who everybody called Missy,
00:21:02
found out that Heidi was missing, she ran home right away, and she started posting her photo all over missing
00:21:09
posters that she just immediately started hanging up around town. Just like got to work straight away. Now, the
00:21:14
poster had a photo of Heidi from her sister Lisa's wedding, and her description. A white female, 5'11, about
00:21:22
145 lb, light brown blonde hair that she wore very long and curly, and blue hazel
00:21:28
eyes. The day that she was missing, she was wearing jeans with a gray sweatshirt
00:21:33
that had a plaid logo across the front of it, and white sneakers. They also said that she would either be
00:21:38
wearing glasses or contact lenses, and she had pierced ears. And when we share a photo of her on
00:21:44
Instagram and socials, I will also share the progress photos that have been done
00:21:48
over the years. Yeah. It was clear though to the police that Heidi was not a runaway. Like this whole
00:21:54
situation, it could like all of her stuff was still at the Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
00:21:58
she has her own car, and it's still here. It doesn't add up. She could just leave in that car.
00:22:02
Very much. And she would have had like if she was going to run away. Yeah. But they were like, no, she was
00:22:07
taken from the store against her will. It's clear as day. It's just a matter of figuring out who would have wanted to
00:22:13
hurt her, abduct her, and why. Now, the county where she lived was one of those places where everybody knew
00:22:19
everybody and every last detail of each other. But there were some some things among the community, excuse me, that
00:22:26
just remained unspoken. It gave off a vibe where like people would leave their doors open because nothing bad happened
00:22:32
there. Unless you were part of the drug scene. Oh. The drug scene in this area was not
00:22:38
something that you wanted to become involved with, because there were plenty of people using and selling drugs.
00:22:42
Specifically in this area, it was marijuana and cocaine at the time. But that specific community obviously
00:22:49
wanted people to keep their noses out of it all. And if they weren't going to, then things could get violent very
00:22:54
quickly. That's really scary. And shortly before Heidi's disappearance, she had told her
00:22:59
boyfriend that there was a man who appeared to be on coke uh excuse me, cocaine who lived near the D&W who was
00:23:06
coming in the shop regularly and freaking her out. Okay. And it was something of note to the investigators
00:23:12
as they started working. So, the investigation of Heidi's disappearance was interesting. Oh, no.
00:23:20
Yeah. And you'll see why I feel that way. Everyone will hear that. Yeah, you're going to see why I feel
00:23:24
that way definitely in this episode, but in part two, because by the way, this is
00:23:28
going to be two parts, you're going to be screaming in the car or in the shower or in your house while you're cleaning.
00:23:34
Or right next to you. Yes, you'll be screaming right here. Good. You particularly will scream right here.
00:23:40
So, first things first, roadblocks were not put up until the day after Heidi went missing. Good, that's like that's
00:23:46
really helpful. That's like using an umbrella the day after it rains. Yes, that's literally what that is.
00:23:52
Are you like You've had an entire day to leave. Exactly. And she went missing in the morning.
00:23:58
Throw them up. That's the thing, the police had started working on the search like an hour and a half after the last
00:24:04
purchase had been made that morning, but for some reason didn't think to put roadblocks up until one full day later.
00:24:10
It makes no sense. sense. No. Like a full a full day later, they're like, oh, you know what?
00:24:16
That's a good idea. have helped yesterday? Throwing up roadblocks. Let's try it today. Well,
00:24:21
and the thing that sucks and I hate to say this, but if roadblocks had been put up on day one, I wholeheartedly think
00:24:27
she could have been found. That's infuriating. Cuz she whoever took her obviously put her in a car and drove her
00:24:32
somewhere. Why would you not put them up? Like what? That's infuriating. And at that point, it's even more
00:24:37
infuriating that Amber Alerts weren't even a thing yet. Oh, yeah. It's so in it I in our in my
00:24:42
mind just because they've been around literally since I was born, I'm like, why didn't they put an Amber Alert out?
00:24:47
We take we we like take for granted that these things have been around for most of our lives and all of your life. So,
00:24:53
it's like things even like 911 Yeah. that you forget that that wasn't always around. And it actually wasn't around,
00:25:00
you know, in the very near past. It was when it came. Yeah, it hasn't been around that long
00:25:05
really, which is crazy to think about because like we were just saying, you just feel like it's always been around.
00:25:10
Exactly. So, yeah, roadblocks have been around for a while, and the knowledge of
00:25:13
putting them up is pretty useful, but there's that. Now, in addition to that [ __ ] I read this book uh this book
00:25:20
called Scrapped about the disappearance and the investigation. And the authors Lisa Peebles and John O'Brien noted that
00:25:27
usually in the state of New York, if there's a big case like this, the state police would take over the
00:25:31
investigation, because the local police, especially in this community, they didn't have a ton of experience with
00:25:37
cases like this. Yeah. People just didn't go missing in this town. Like people were not murdered that
00:25:42
often in this town. Yeah. But the New York State Police were called off early in Heidi's
00:25:47
investigation because of two cops that had beef with one another. Oh my god. The local sheriff, Charles Nellis, I
00:25:55
believe is how you say it, refused to let Jack Doyle, who was the head of the State Police, have any part of the
00:26:00
investigation simply because they didn't like each other, and there were some kind of like unspoken competition
00:26:06
between the two of them. So, it's just two tiny men swinging their dicks around at each other.
00:26:11
Literally. And with with a missing girl. That's the thing. It's like let your ego
00:26:16
get in the way of finding an 18-year-old girl on Easter morning, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm rooting for
00:26:21
you. Now, Mario Cuomo, who was actually governor of New York at the time, called
00:26:25
in the National Guard himself to see if they could locate Heidi, cuz he was like, what the [ __ ] are you guys doing
00:26:30
over there? Somebody should do something. But try as they might, they just kept coming up with dead ends. They
00:26:35
were searching all over the place, and of course in spots that the average person wouldn't be able to handle. They
00:26:41
would pick up like anything they found, any article of clothing, soda cans, anything hoping to get DNA. They filled
00:26:47
up more than 12 bags by the time the search was called off, and not a single item in any bag could be traced back to
00:26:55
Heidi. Jeez. What happened? So, Heidi's family was not pleased to say the least in the beginning of this, and they
00:27:00
actually ended up coming up with their own reward in the hopes that the $20,000 might motivate somebody to come forward.
00:27:07
Um they also featured Heidi's case on America's Most Wanted, and they were still coming up with nothing. So, that
00:27:14
was when they made the decision to call in the help of the FBI. So, there was a man called Clint VanZandt who actually
00:27:19
worked at Quantico. Oh, wow. And his he was specially trained in analyzing serial killers and sexual
00:27:25
predators. Um he actually was involved in two pretty high-profile cases, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, and Timothy
00:27:32
McVeigh. Woah. He predicted their characteristics pretty much down to a T. Jeez. So, in his professional opinion,
00:27:40
whoever had kidnapped Heidi would most likely try to insert themselves into the investigation somehow.
00:27:46
Okay. Whether that would be a tip or calling back over and over again to follow up on that tip, maybe join a join
00:27:53
a search party. They would just want to feel a sense of closeness to to the aftermath of what they'd caused.
00:27:59
Which how [ __ ] up is that? How [ __ ] up is that? And I feel like that happens
00:28:04
a lot. Yeah. Cuz we've we've covered like a bunch of cases I feel like where the
00:28:08
person responsible was in the search party. Yeah, because if you think about it, like shitty people, all they want is
00:28:14
attention. Yeah. That's all they want. Like they want attention, they want to feel
00:28:18
powerful. Usually because they don't have any power Yep. in their own lives, so they try to
00:28:23
create it outside by like just making misery. Mhm. So, they'll do things to get attention on themselves, even if it's
00:28:30
negative, because it gives them some sense of like I matter. Right. And that's what these people do. It's
00:28:35
like they do these horrible things with no regard for human life that they destroy. And then they insert themselves
00:28:42
into the investigation so that they can hear one a thank you for a tip or like and just sit there and be like, I caused
00:28:49
this. Yep. And now I get to be a part of it. It's so [ __ ] up. It is. And like especially if they're
00:28:54
involved in the search, it's like you're looking at these desperate family members, and for them, they're getting
00:29:00
off on that. Yeah, cuz they know miserable people like to create other people miserable
00:29:05
people. Have you heard the phrase misery loves company? and it's true in like every aspect of
00:29:11
life. Miserable people on every level, be it murderers or like, you know, trolls on the internet.
00:29:16
Yep. No matter what kind of level they're at, all they want is to create misery that they can feel like like
00:29:24
they've created it because they'll don't feel alone. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's it's so
00:29:29
[ __ ] up. an FBI profiler? Yes. Yes, I forgot to tell you. We're actually we're four years in into
00:29:36
this, and Elena's like, I actually have a third job, guys. Surprise. Well, the FBI profiler there, VanZandt,
00:29:43
also said that if there there any kind of sexual motive in this crime, then the person responsible would potentially
00:29:50
record their crimes in some kind of writings or drawings or collect articles written on the crime, which is weird
00:29:56
because we just watched the the little things. Oh, yes. And that happens there. There you go. Now, if they had a
00:30:02
connection to the victim that came up in the investigation, they would that they
00:30:07
would likely be closely following. They would try to explain it away in the most
00:30:11
logical way they could. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, I personally feel like these
00:30:16
characteristics are embodied in somebody that we're going to talk about in part two.
00:30:20
Huh. So, like I realized I recently No, this is So, like I recently realized I always
00:30:25
say Keep that in your back pocket. Keep it I'm It's in my back pocket. I was listening to an episode of Morbid
00:30:30
the other day, which I don't usually do, but I would just wanted to hear this one.
00:30:33
I was going to say, "Wow." And Well, I don't cuz I don't like to hear my own voice.
00:30:36
no, me neither. That's like my own. I like to hear yours. I like to hear yours, too. But, um I realized I say
00:30:41
that a lot. And I was kind of looking at over some of my old like case notes was like, "Why do you always say that?"
00:30:46
That's funny. But, I'm going to keep going with it. Yeah, it's your It's yours. It's mine. TM. Own it.
00:30:58
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00:32:58
on at all in this investigation. There's literally no DNA evidence, there's no fingerprints, it's there's nothing.
00:33:05
So, that was until they got a call from that Chris Bevins about the two men arguing with the young woman in front of
00:33:11
the store Aha. near the two-toned white van. Now, Chris's girlfriend, who again was
00:33:16
related to Rich Thibodeau, he said she said that Chris really just liked to be in the limelight and really loved the
00:33:23
attention that he was getting. Okay. And then she followed it up with letting them just know that he was not too
00:33:28
intelligent. Okay. So, I think she was just trying to say, "Take what he says with a grain of salt because I'm not so
00:33:35
sure about it." And she Exactly. She was like, "You know, I'm not I'm not going to call him anything. I'm not going to
00:33:41
say it. Just take Take with this what you will." Yeah, I think she was really good at um
00:33:45
compliment sandwiches, I feel. But, the thing was the police are [ __ ] desperate for any information on
00:33:51
this case, and they want to know more. So, they're like, "All right, we're going to take what he says with a grain
00:33:56
of salt, but like we might be calling him back." Yeah. But, then another call came in and also noted something about a
00:34:02
two-toned white van that was {quote} driving erratically later in the day that Easter Sunday. Hmm. And then, a man
00:34:10
who had been inside the D&W at the same time Richard was called in a tip of his own.
00:34:16
He said that he saw Richard inside the store and he parked his car right in front of Richard's van. Now, the man
00:34:22
said he was pretty sure there was another person in Richard's van because while Richard was in the store with him,
00:34:28
the man said he saw the van move while he was inside. So, like somebody else must have moved it.
00:34:35
Now, I don't know. If that was true, then was Richard one of the men that Chris Bevins
00:34:40
had seen at the store, Bevins, excuse me, and perhaps the other man was somebody
00:34:44
he knew and someone who joined in on an argument that he was having with Heidi for one reason or another. Huh. So, to
00:34:50
be sure, the police are going to have to call Chris Bevins once again. Now, they call him again. It's about 10
00:34:57
days after his original tip, and they decide to call him up and have him come down to the station to chat. Now, in the
00:35:03
days leading up to that, the police were asking around town specifically now about Richard Thibodeau. He's become a
00:35:09
suspect. And any other men that he might be connected to. And in their questioning, they learned
00:35:15
that Richard had a brother named Gary. And they also knew that Gary had actually met Heidi on probably more than
00:35:22
one occasion. They were sure there was at least one occasion. Okay. They seem to have met sometime in early '94 at a
00:35:28
bar where Brett, her boyfriend, Brett's brother, worked as the bar manager. Okay. Now, rumor had it that Gary had
00:35:36
some kind of crush on Heidi and that he made her uncomfortable because he told her boyfriend that he found her
00:35:41
attractive. So, there was some kind of weirdness going on there. Which also, why would you do that? Yeah,
00:35:47
if you But, I feel like sometimes dudes do that where they're like, "This is my girlfriend." And then their friend is
00:35:53
like, "Wow, she's so hot, bro." so weird. "I'm not a piece of meat." Like that's
00:35:58
so I don't know. That's just weird to me. Yeah, it is. Like to go out of your way to be like, "Hey, I find your
00:36:03
girlfriend attractive." Like, "Okay." It's weird. Like you can't do anything about it.
00:36:07
Yeah, like I've I've been in that situation before and just been like, "Okay." And you feel like I'm sure Heidi
00:36:14
just felt icky. Yeah. I mean, and and then I can I guess I can double advocate this a little bit cuz the more I thought
00:36:20
about it, I'm like, "Well, you know, if I meet my friend's new significant other, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend,
00:36:26
wife, like whatever." True. And I'm like, I can be like, "Wow, like what Like he's so handsome or like she's so
00:36:32
gorgeous." Like, you know, like I can say it that way of me not being like, "I'm attracted to them." It's just like
00:36:37
"Hey, they're like just They're just pretty or they're just really a good-looking person." It all comes down
00:36:43
to what Gary actually said and his tone when he said it, and unfortunately, none
00:36:48
of us were there. I was just going to say, and that's exactly what it is. So, I think you can
00:36:52
look at it both ways. can. My initial My initial reaction was like, "What the [ __ ] Gary?" Well, and so was
00:36:57
everybody else's. But, then I'm like, "Okay, I guess if it was just like, 'Wow, she's so pretty.'"
00:37:02
Right, but it It was noted that it made her uncomfortable. Well, and that is the That's the That's
00:37:08
the the golden thing here is it made her uncomfortable. what matters here. Exactly.
00:37:14
So, they they find this information out and they're like, "Okay. So, maybe it was Gary that was with Rich, and maybe
00:37:21
those were the two men who were arguing with the girl that Chris saw. Heidi, Rich, Gary. Is that the scenario?"
00:37:28
So, they were like, "Let's call Chris and see if he remembers anything about the men that fit Gary or Richard." And
00:37:33
this is the part in the investigation where you're going to want to punch things. Cool. I love when that happens.
00:37:39
Yeah. Because for the for some reason, the first part of their interview with Chris was not recorded.
00:37:46
Why? Why does that happen? I don't know. I know why that happens, but like We know why. We know why. It's like you're
00:37:53
going to get caught. It's the same thing. We reference the West Memphis 3 case all the time, but it has so many
00:37:58
little pieces that fit into other cases so well that like Jessie Misskelley, like they didn't start recording his
00:38:05
until they made sure that they got him to understand the story they wanted him to tell and understand what And he
00:38:11
didn't even tell it right then. Just putting that out there. Yeah, you actually just summed up what
00:38:16
might be happening in the next like three paragraphs. That seems to be why we get a "Oops, we
00:38:22
didn't start recording for 3 hours." And it's like, "Oh, cuz you were making sure
00:38:26
that you could figure out how to make them confess." Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, first hour not
00:38:31
recorded. No. Once they were done there, he the he they first had him at the Central Square
00:38:37
PD. Once they were done with him there, they went to the new sheriff's headquarters, and a recorded statement
00:38:43
was taken this time. Okay. Now, Bevins said something about being low on gas, but being worried about pulling into the
00:38:49
the D&W because he thought he saw some kind of domestic dispute unfolding. Now, I just want to say, he's gathering all
00:38:57
of the following information as he's driving by. Okay. That's all I'm going to say. Yeah. So,
00:39:02
he said that he saw one guy, and as they were arguing, he said one of the guys held the girl behind in a bear hug.
00:39:10
That's what's how That's how he described it. He had her in a bear hug from behind. And he said she seemed to
00:39:14
be hysterical and struggling. Ooh. But, in his opinion, it just seemed like she was going through something and she was
00:39:22
mad at one of these men. And Bevins, you know, just driving by in his car said, "You know, I just thought maybe one of
00:39:28
them was her boyfriend and that they were like breaking up or something and she was hysterical about it."
00:39:34
That's how they see us, guys. That's how they see us. Okay. Okay. That full well it have been Heidi
00:39:40
Allen being abducted and this [ __ ] chalked it up to She sad cuz her boyfriend's breaking up with
00:39:46
her. And also um okay, even if that was the case, why would you just ignore the fact that
00:39:53
now he can physically assault her because she's upset? Right. Or like we're just A man has her hand has his
00:39:59
hands on the physically upset woman. It doesn't matter what the [ __ ] is going on.
00:40:03
No. This man is physically assaulting a woman who is hysterical and trying to get away from him.
00:40:10
Yeah. Even if you don't want to involve, which I get like you don't want to call
00:40:13
someone, like maybe you could you don't want to escalate the situation or something, you pull over and you call
00:40:17
police. That's the thing. It's fine that you don't want to go over there. To be honest with you, I wouldn't want to go
00:40:22
over there. Cuz you don't know what's going on. You don't know who those people are.
00:40:26
He might have a gun, you never know, but you call someone. over and you call the police. I would be
00:40:31
like, I don't know what's going on, but it looks like she's in trouble. There's a domestic dispute up front. And I'd be
00:40:36
like, you got to get here right now. And also, it's just a lot to chalk up for a
00:40:40
situation involving three people you literally don't know. That's my favorite part is just like, well,
00:40:45
I was driving by and I saw this quick scene. I now know all of their backstories. I know their relationships.
00:40:52
I know that she is a hysterical woman. That's just who she is. And that poor man is just trying to he's just trying
00:40:59
to control her cuz she's going to go crazy. It's like you literally don't know those people.
00:41:04
What? Like you don't know those people. Which And how do you know she knows those men? Like she's at hysterical and
00:41:10
trying to get away from one of them. That's the thing. I'm like, I kind of believe your girlfriend when she said
00:41:16
you just like to be in the limelight. Yeah, cuz that's a that's a wild narrative to pull from driving by
00:41:23
something. And also, don't assume. It just makes an ass out of you and you. Yeah.
00:41:29
Not me. It's true. It's stupid. So he said there were other cars at the pumps. He's and but he
00:41:35
couldn't describe any of them other than the van that the he thought belonged to
00:41:39
these two men, which was also at the pumps. And at this point in the story, he said that the three people were now
00:41:45
walking toward it. So when asked to describe the van, he said that it was either a Dodge or Chevy
00:41:51
and that it was between 1979 and 1988 for the year make. And he said there was a stripe going down the middle that was
00:41:59
dark blue. Okay. Now, Richard did have a van that was two-toned with a stripe down the middle, but it was a black
00:42:05
stripe. I mean, dark blue Dark blue and black exactly. one to [ __ ] up. It is. I will give him that.
00:42:11
Also, I always think of like the years when they're like when they're like, it's a car between this year and this
00:42:16
year. no [ __ ] idea. I'd be I'd be like, I don't know, it's a car that is between the invention of the
00:42:21
automobile and now. You could also Like that would be those would be my years that I'd be able I'd be like, it
00:42:26
was invented. I don't know. I could tell you it's a Toyota. I don't know what Toyota.
00:42:31
Yeah, I could barely tell you that. I'd be like, it's a car with four wheels. Drew had a Toyota for like years and I
00:42:37
could not remember if it was a Camry or a Corolla and it was parked in our driveway every day.
00:42:41
Yeah, I'd be horrible at that. So I'm always astounded when people can like actually close in on years. It was a car
00:42:47
on four wheels. Yeah, it was it was within the last 100 years, I think. It had a horn, I think.
00:42:52
Yeah, there was no horse and buggy, so I it was a car. Yeah. So so pretty good on
00:42:56
the car. Pretty good description. that black and blue thing, I think you could easily Totally. I I knew you would
00:43:02
play devil's advocate there and I knew I wouldn't be able to argue with you. Yeah. Now, he then went on to describe
00:43:06
the men that the girl was with. So one man was described as being about 10 ft away from the other man who was
00:43:13
following behind holding the woman. So we have one guy ahead about 10 ft and then these two people, guy and a girl,
00:43:19
guy's holding on to girl following behind. Totally normal. Yeah, totally normal.
00:43:23
Yeah, definitely. So the man in the front ahead of everybody else, Chris said he's probably about 5'11. The other
00:43:30
guy, he said probably around 6'2 because he's taller than the the girl who was probably about 5'11. Mhm. Heidi was
00:43:38
5'11. Yeah. He said the solo guy in the front was older and hunched over. He said both
00:43:43
men were white, but he didn't see their faces. Now, one of these statements that
00:43:48
he made was handwritten and the other one was typed. But interestingly enough, the handwritten version has a lot of
00:43:55
contradictions when compared to the typed version and even with the spoken version. Huh. The handwritten statement
00:44:02
makes the solo guy who Chris described as 5'11 5'6. So we're shrinking him five whole
00:44:09
inches. I was I was going to say this man's almost half a foot. Yeah. Now, some people wonder if that's
00:44:17
that guy has a different description because the deputies maybe coerced Chris into making the guy in the front
00:44:23
description match Richard Thibodeau. Mhm. Because Richard Thibodeau was right around 5'5. Oh, okay. So they're like,
00:44:32
let's Let's call it 5'6 because that you know, like how would he get it like on the
00:44:36
nose Yeah. 5'5, that works. Ooh. Now, the officer who typed up the handwritten took quite a few liberties to the story
00:44:44
or just omitted things completely. He did not write down the height of the man who was holding the woman. Now,
00:44:49
remember, Chris had originally said this man was probably around 6'2 because he was taller than the girl who was quite
00:44:56
tall herself, 5'11. The officer did write down that the girl was 5'11, but nothing about the man's height who was
00:45:03
holding her. Not a specific number, not if he was shorter, not if he was taller.
00:45:08
These are all like basic things Yeah. that you write down in a statement. Like this is wild.
00:45:12
And they're like, you need to have a height written down for what And he gave you one.
00:45:16
And he gave you one, so write it down. Yeah. And you need to write down the one he actually [ __ ] told you. It's not
00:45:21
like fill in it's not Mad Libs. No. So with all the height stuff out of the way, the officer decided to take one
00:45:27
more liberty to say that the van was parked near the pumps rather than at the pumps like Chris had said it was.
00:45:36
Later on down the road, there were also posters with Heidi's information on them, but they seem to have decided to
00:45:42
shrink her actual height and advertise that she was 5'9 rather than 5'11. What? Could that be because the second man
00:45:51
that they wanted to fit this narrative was Gary. Gary would still be taller than her if
00:45:57
she was 5'9, not if she was 5'11. This is shady. Now, back to where we started this because it's going to get a
00:46:05
whole lot shadier down at the station, baby. With Richard Thibodeau and his girlfriend Teresa being brought in for
00:46:10
questioning. That's where we started. So once the couple arrives at the station, they are immediately separated
00:46:16
and the cops who were talking to Richard want to go over his story with them one
00:46:20
more time. He went through the whole entire thing again. Woke up Easter morning. I smoked Teresa's last
00:46:25
cigarette. She would have been pissed. Hopped in my van, parked along the front of the D&W. Wonder why they changed that
00:46:32
it was at the at the pumps. Huh, look at that. Parked in the front of the D&W. Grabbed his ciggies, wished Heidi a good
00:46:39
one. Now, then he made his way back home, won about Easter with his family, but then
00:46:43
he called back Tippen. And I think the cops were very stuck on the profile that Van Zandt had come up with saying
00:46:50
whoever was responsible would likely insert themselves into the investigation. And I think they were
00:46:55
trying to apply that to Richard Thibodeau because he called later that Easter to let them know that he had been
00:47:00
one of the last people at the D&W that morning. Was that his way of inserting himself
00:47:05
into the investigation? I could totally see that. I will hand that right over. 100%. But then if you
00:47:11
look at it from the other side of things and he hadn't called in to tell them he
00:47:14
was there that morning and then they found out that he was the person who made the last transaction, that would
00:47:20
also look very shady. Yeah, there's no winning. You're damned if you do, you're damned
00:47:24
if you don't. And you would I know that that is true that like people like we just said,
00:47:29
people do insert themselves. They love to insert themselves. That is a huge thing that a lot of criminals do.
00:47:34
And remember he showed up at the search. Exactly. But on the same token, it's like, but we also want people to come
00:47:41
forward and say tips when they have them and not feel like they can't because they're going to be looked at like
00:47:48
they're just trying to insert themselves in. So it's like that's a slippery slope
00:47:52
kind of look at things to take by the investigators cuz it's like, well, you want people to call in tips Look at
00:47:58
Chris. Where would you be in the investigation without his [ __ ] tip? Yeah, so like I get why they need to
00:48:03
like I get that why that's like floating around in their head a little bit. I get
00:48:07
that, but like to like really nail him for that, it would not be great. So far, exactly. Now, I could see maybe where
00:48:14
they thought he was going above and beyond because apparently he put a big sign up on his house that said praying
00:48:20
for Heidi a safe return. And he also had posted her missing person's flyer to the back of his van,
00:48:26
like in the back window. Okay. Which is also helping the investigation and you want people to do things like
00:48:31
that, but you can look at it from Chris Van Zandt's Clint Van Zandt's point of view and say is he just like that is a
00:48:38
little over the top like And that's that's driving around with it on your van and knowing that people are thinking
00:48:44
you're helping when you know that you were part of it. Absolutely. Putting it on your house knowing that.
00:48:49
Like I get that. get it. But then I also see it as he was one of the last people to see her and maybe he
00:48:54
feels some kind of weird connection. Or like survivor's guilt. Yeah, like he's just like, man, if I had seen if I was
00:49:01
there at a different time, maybe I could have stopped something or maybe these people would have left because I would
00:49:06
have been there. Right. So I can I can 100% see both sides so far of why they would think certain things and why it's
00:49:14
not awesome to think those things. Same here. Same here. And I will say too, this like going to play devil's
00:49:19
advocate again, like I see why they're why they're thinking that he's inserting himself and all that and like the sign
00:49:24
is weird. But at the same time, this is a super small community and an 18-year-old girl just went missing. Tons
00:49:30
of people are putting up signs for this girl and leaving signs in the back of their car with her information. So Yeah,
00:49:36
it seems like it's like kind of a tight-knit community. It is. Yeah. So, I don't know. Uh maybe
00:49:42
it was the small town guy in him, but as far as the police were concerned, and now given Bivens' array of statements,
00:49:48
they wanted to get access to that van and have it thoroughly investigated. And again, I get that. 100%.
00:49:55
it. Rule him out. He's a suspect. Rule him out. I've always said, "Overdo it." Yeah. Like to be proven wrong. Like
00:50:02
nobody's going to get mad at you for going above and beyond. Absolutely. Because that's the thing.
00:50:06
You have your suspects, your whole job is to rule them out until you have the primo suspect.
00:50:11
Exactly. But unfortunately, he seemed to be the only suspect getting investigated.
00:50:15
Uh-oh. So, they they want to see if there's any kind of DNA in that van that could place Heidi there. They hoping
00:50:22
that it's going to be an open and shut case. But first, they had a couple more mind games that they wanted to play.
00:50:28
So, in the room with Richard, they said, "Guess what? Teresa's in the other room
00:50:32
singing like a canary. She's telling us everything. We know all about that morning, Richard."
00:50:37
And Richard's sitting there like, "I don't know what the [ __ ] she's telling you cuz Oh my god. what I've told you is
00:50:42
the truth. I'm not involved." In the next room, Teresa was actually not saying anything about Richard at
00:50:48
all. In fact, the officers in that room were trying to break her down so that she would, but she just wasn't budging.
00:50:55
And things finally got to the point where they threatened to take her children away if she didn't tell them
00:51:00
the truth. And she [ __ ] lost it on them at that point. She was like, "You need to arrest me with something or let
00:51:07
me out of here because I've told you everything I know and you're not bringing my kids in." Yeah, you're not
00:51:11
taking my kids. I didn't do anything. No. And she said, "I I've told you everything I know. Like
00:51:16
I was with him. He went to get the cigarettes, he came home, we went to Easter, you came out to Easter, took his
00:51:22
statement. I don't know what else to tell you." Yeah, and it's like if that was it, I can't again, like you can't
00:51:27
force me to make [ __ ] up for your narrative. So, Richard and Teresa, they were let go that night, but not before
00:51:32
the cops gained access to that van. Totally They needed it. Yeah. Richard also took two polygraph tests. Confusing
00:51:39
whether or not he passed them. Some sources say yes, other sources say no. Oh, okay.
00:51:44
They're about as useful as a hot dog in a trench coat though, so I'm not going to focus on it. They did take blood
00:51:49
samples, they took hair samples, and they took pubic samples from him. There you go. And overall, the Thibodeaus had
00:51:55
been kept at that station that day for more than 8 hours. Damn. Now, there was no blood found in
00:52:01
Richard's van. None of the hair samples, fingerprint samples, or any sample taken from the
00:52:07
van matched anything that belonged to Heidi. And like nothing proved that she was in that van. Wow.
00:52:13
They had her fingerprints in the system already, which is something we're going to get into probably in part two. Oh,
00:52:19
okay. And they went through some of her belongings so that they could use different things to compare to the
00:52:23
samples. Nothing matched. There was zero indication she'd ever been there. But it was a small town, and people were
00:52:30
starting to catch on to what was going on, and people were starting to talk. Now, people who had already told the
00:52:36
police, like no, I don't know anything, were coming forward with information now. Huh. They said they either recently
00:52:43
remembered or were too nervous to say before. Which does happen. Yeah. It does happen.
00:52:48
Many of those people though had that had been spoken to in the past were specifically asked if they had seen
00:52:53
Richard's van parked in front of his brother Gary's house the day that Heidi went missing, and all of them said they
00:52:58
had not. Yeah, it's like if you if you have, you have. If you have and you haven't.
00:53:03
It's that simple. But now people were totally changing their stories. Some were saying the van
00:53:08
was parked there all night, others were saying that it was parked late into the night on Easter, and people had others
00:53:15
like crazy stories regarding the Thibodeau brothers. One witness called in a tip saying to the police that he
00:53:21
saw Gary and Richard carrying an 8 to 10-ft long object in the woods. He said whatever it was was wrapped in in clear
00:53:28
plastic and it had the ends tied off with rope. What? Now, according to him, this was the
00:53:34
morning of April 6th and it happened in Palermo, New York. So, the police follow
00:53:38
up on this tip. They check this area of the woods, they expand a little bit, just try cuz they're not finding
00:53:43
anything where he says it's going to be. They move out a little bit further. They
00:53:47
come up with nothing. No such object was found in the woods. What? But they still the police, the
00:53:53
investigators, they have a very strong feeling about Richard and Gary. So, they call Chris back in town in one time
00:54:00
again Oh my god, sorry. They call Chris back in to the station one last time. And by this point, Chris has seen this
00:54:06
van three different times and said, "Yep, it's the right style of van, but it's not the same color as the one I saw
00:54:13
that morning." Okay. He has seen He has said this multiple times. But this third
00:54:18
time seeing it, he changed his mind and said, "I'm like 80% sure that maybe yeah, it's
00:54:23
it's the right van, but I'm like 80% sure." Cuz I'm sure after a few times of it, you're like, "I just want to give
00:54:30
you what you want at this point because I think I might be wrong." Like at that point, like you said, you're being like,
00:54:36
"Maybe I am wrong. Maybe that isn't the van." Like I would I imagine that would happen. Of course.
00:54:42
And then after a little bit of coaching, which you can read this full transcript
00:54:45
in that book Scrapped, I definitely think you guys should go read it and we'll link it in the show notes.
00:54:50
You read this this coaching that goes on, and then at the end of it, Chris says, "That's the van."
00:54:57
Oof. Yeah. Okay. Now, at this time, there were four other suspects in this case. But Chris Bivens' story, alongside
00:55:05
by the sudden influx of tips putting Gary and his brother Richard at the scene, sealed the deal for the
00:55:10
investigation. And on May 25th, 1994, both Richard and Gary were arrested. Oh, damn.
00:55:17
And Gary at this point didn't even know he was a suspect. Holy [ __ ] Like they had come and talked
00:55:21
to him a few times, but he was he gave them DNA, he gave them whatever they needed, and nothing matched. So, he was
00:55:27
like, "I I wasn't there." Like me and then he said him and his girlfriend were sleeping that Easter morning, and they
00:55:33
woke up when Richard called them and said like, "Did you see the news about the D&W?" Oh.
00:55:38
But it was just the two of them in the house, so they didn't have anybody to say that
00:55:42
they were with them. So, one morning, May 25th, he wakes up and there's a SWAT team surrounding his house arresting
00:55:48
him. But they weren't arresting Gary on kidnapping charges. They asked Richard was arrested on kidnapping charges, but
00:55:56
Gary was arrested because he and his girlfriend Sharon had failed to show up in court in Massachusetts on an
00:56:02
unrelated drug charge. Oh. The investigators wanted him behind bars while they made their case against
00:56:07
him. Yeah, of course. is. Yeah. That's an easy thing to do. Yeah. So, neither brother knew that the other
00:56:12
had been arrested until days later, and they see each other in the wreck yard. What?
00:56:18
And as soon as Richard heard what they were holding Gary on, he's like, "I got I'm here on kidnapping charges. Like why
00:56:23
the hell are you here?" And Gary's like, "I'm here on like some drug charge from
00:56:26
like years ago. Like I didn't show up in court." And Richard is like, "I know exactly what they're trying to do.
00:56:31
They're trying to pin this on me, and now they have you as an accomplice." Wow. they're standing there chatting with
00:56:37
each other, guards come over and separate them. They get separated. Oh, [ __ ] And then Gary and Sharon get extradited
00:56:46
back to Massachusetts. And then you're like on you could see both sides of that one, too.
00:56:51
have to separate them. like you would have to separate them so they can't get a story straight to tell
00:56:55
[ __ ] to the investigators. Oh, like there's so many like I get it. I get it on both sides. Like I can see
00:57:03
how this is like a railroading case right now. Mhm. And also I get it why it's a pretty
00:57:08
good case right now. Yeah. The only I think the only thing that doesn't make it like a great case is that they have
00:57:13
literally no DNA. going to say the fact that there's no physical evidence. Nothing. And also it's like do you think
00:57:19
these two guys are sophisticated enough that they there would be not a trace in that van?
00:57:24
Nothing. Nothing. Like not a trace? Right. Come on. Exactly. Like a fingerprint, a hair,
00:57:30
something. tried to say like, "Well, they cleaned it out." If you look at in the thing
00:57:34
that says is and if you read the book, you'll find out Richard did take his car to a car wash the next day, but because
00:57:41
when they search your [ __ ] they don't put it back nicely. And they they leave like the fingerprint dust and everything
00:57:47
all over the place. But it looks shady as [ __ ] to go to the car wash the next day.
00:57:51
it does. But he was like, "My van's a mess. I got to clean it up." Yeah. So, it's like you
00:57:55
could devil's advocate the [ __ ] out of this entire thing. could. You get both ways. It's crazy.
00:58:00
So, Gary and Sharon get extradited back to Massachusetts. Richard is able to make it out on bail because he actually
00:58:06
did I think he did landscaping work for this woman. Like he had worked for her before. And she was like, "There's no
00:58:11
way he's involved in this." And she posted his $15,000 bail. Holy [ __ ] I don't know who I love enough to do that
00:58:19
for. Um really? well, I'd hope you'd never be in jail. You never Well, what if something
00:58:24
happens and I fall asleep on you? But I'm saying that's a That's a That's a loyal customer right
00:58:30
there. Yeah, like we don't see that happen a lot. No. But she said she's like, "I don't see a
00:58:34
world in which he's responsible for this. Like I know him, I don't see it." That's also very impressive.
00:58:40
Wow. And other people in town also came to his defense, too, saying there was no
00:58:44
way that Richard was the person who was behind all of this. His friends actually
00:58:47
put a sign in his yard that said, "Dick didn't do anything." Oh my god. Wow. Now, Gary on the other hand
00:58:53
couldn't post bail. Gary We'll get into it in part two. Gary's a bit of character.
00:58:57
I I had a feeling. Gary has a past. know Gary, but like I just got vibes from even you just saying Gary that I
00:59:03
was like, "I feel like Gary's He's got a past." Gary's done some stuff. He has. He
00:59:08
absolutely has. Now, and but and again, there are people in this town that absolutely believe that these two are
00:59:13
the ones responsible, and I'm not saying either way. I haven't made up my mind. Oh, okay. So, Gary on the other hand, he
00:59:19
couldn't post bail, and as soon as he and Sharon were taken into custody, they separated them, obviously, and tried to
00:59:26
do the same thing to Sharon that they'd previously done to Richard's girlfriend Teresa. Okay.
00:59:30
They said, "We know Gary's involved. You tell us everything. We know he kidnapped
00:59:34
Heidi, and if you tell us everything," they said, "we will move you anywhere in the United States that you want to go,
00:59:40
and you will be placed in the witness protection program." Holy [ __ ] And she said, "That's great. I have
00:59:46
nothing to tell you." Wow. She said, "We were home sleeping that day. We woke up when Richard called to
00:59:52
tell us that the like something was going down at the DNW. That's that." Yeah. And they kept pushing. They were like,
00:59:57
"Listen, like anywhere you want to go, you share and anywhere you want to go." She's like, "I don't want to go
01:00:03
doesn't want to go. Nothing's happened. She refused. She said Gary had no involvement, and she and Gary both
01:00:08
maintained their alibi forever. They never broke on that story. Never. Wow. So, when they were in Massachusetts in
01:00:17
in custody, the police were searching their home on numerous occasions trying to find any kind of solid evidence to
01:00:23
prove Gary's involvement. They were talk they were taking boxes and boxes filled
01:00:28
with all kinds of things, but as they tested and tested, nothing could be linked back to Heidi at all. At that
01:00:35
time, Gary actually hadn't been announced as the second suspect yet, but people knew why Richard had been
01:00:40
arrested, and they could add two and two together pretty easily. And you know, people started talking being like,
01:00:46
"Gary's involved. Like we know something's going on." Now, while they were incarcerated, the Syracuse Herald
01:00:52
Journal actually posted a story pointing out how weak the evidence was against Dick. Yeah, cuz I mean it no matter
01:00:58
what, even if you're like we feel like he's involved, you got to have something, man.
01:01:03
You have to have something. Something. And it really is again, West Memphis three-ish because it's like we
01:01:08
they have zero physical evidence, but they're just like, "Yep, you did it." We did it cuz we can't tie you to the scene
01:01:13
at all. Exactly. You did it cuz you like I guess for Richard it just sucks that you were
01:01:17
the last person that saw her that day. That really does. So, but they post the Oh my god, they post at that point
01:01:23
nobody was posting anything. No. They were writing articles. So, they they put this article out That's that's
01:01:29
how weak the evidence is. And a few newspapers in town actually later on throughout the investigation would do
01:01:35
interviews with both brothers, and people were starting to get pissed about it cuz they're like, "They're suspects
01:01:40
in murder cases. Like why are you giving them the time of day?" Yeah. And the newspapers were like,
01:01:44
"Usually we don't get to do this because the lawyers will tell them not to talk to any press, but in this case, their
01:01:50
lawyers are telling them do all the press you can." Yeah, cuz there's nothing holding you.
01:01:54
to clear your name. There's nothing holding you. But then it's also like if they were the ones involved, then like
01:01:59
holy [ __ ] What are you doing? Right. But like how would it's this is so [ __ ]
01:02:03
But one journalist was allegedly threatened by the police for putting out these articles that were kind of giving
01:02:10
Richard and Gary like the time of day. Whoa. Alleged. Alleged. Now, some luck would come to the
01:02:17
investigation when a furnace in the back of Gary's home was checked. And when two of his former cellmates
01:02:24
would come forward and tell the police they had some serious information. Oh. So, while the police were taking bags
01:02:29
and bags out of Gary's home, they realized that he had a furnace in his backyard, and it he kind of used it like
01:02:34
as a burn pit. Now, obviously they want to look inside and test anything that might be lingering. So, they did find
01:02:41
bones inside. Oh. They find bones inside? did find bones, you say? They did find bones in his furnace.
01:02:51
Human bones? So, they weren't quite sure if these were human remains or if they were
01:02:56
animal remains. So, they called a forensic anthropologist to test them. Now, the forensic anthropologist found
01:03:02
that most of the bones were chicken bones, but there were a few that could not be definitively decided upon. Oh.
01:03:09
He said it was possible that they could be human, but he said, "These undetermined bones are consistent in
01:03:16
color and appearance with the other bones that we found, meaning they're most likely chicken bones, but I can't
01:03:22
rule out that they could be human bones." you can't say definitively one way or another.
01:03:26
Which sucks because Holy [ __ ] human remains in his furnace, or does he have chicken bones?
01:03:32
[ __ ] So, yeah. Oh, that's scary. massive. And that was that on that. He just said there's no way to to
01:03:40
definitively decide. He just said most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule it out.
01:03:44
Also, like maybe this is just me. Why do you have chicken bones in your furnace?
01:03:49
I don't I mean this is like What is the reasoning for that? Chicken bones in your furnace? You just
01:03:55
throw them out. I don't really know. know. Like I'm just what I'm like what why were you burning chicken bones?
01:04:00
I'm a vegetarian, so I wouldn't know. In case you guys didn't hear. No, I don't I don't know I'm just like
01:04:07
why would you even have chicken bones in your furnace? I I hate to like be this gross, but like would you cook a chicken
01:04:14
in your furnace? No, not a furnace. think unless unless I'm thinking of a different type of furnace. I have no
01:04:20
idea. This is like very strange. well, maybe It's all very strange. Yeah, dude, I don't really know. So, no
01:04:26
matter what, that's strange. Yeah. That's some weird [ __ ] And my my eyebrow is quirked.
01:04:32
I tried to quirk mine, but I have Botox. Oh, wow. So, it didn't matter. This was huge for
01:04:38
the investigation, and it would later help the prosecution build their case against Gary, of course. Mhm. And then,
01:04:44
what put the final cherry on top for these these investigators and the prosecutors was when two inmates, Robert
01:04:51
Baldasaro, excuse me, and James McDonald come forward, and they say that Gary was
01:04:56
definitely involved in Heidi Allen's disappearance, and worse, he had murdered her.
01:05:02
They said Gary described some kind of drug deal that he and Heidi had been involved in. The story changed a couple
01:05:09
of times. At one point they said Heidi had screwed Gary over, and then in another version, Gary had screwed Heidi
01:05:16
over, and then she threatened him. So, he and his brother abducted her from the store and killed her by hitting her over
01:05:22
the head with a shovel. Okay. Now That's awful. Absolutely bonkers. Horrible. And the media goes bonkers,
01:05:30
and they release a story saying these two men come forward with details that only the kidnappers would know. But
01:05:37
that's really not the case. No. Because we don't know what the kidnappers would know because we don't
01:05:41
really have a lot in this investigation. yeah, like what really information would
01:05:45
they have that we haven't all heard? But they they post they they post that story, and then the prosecutors are
01:05:52
finally comfortable going forward with a formal arrest of Gary Thibodeau. Wow. So, he gets arrested. I believe it
01:05:58
was like 3 months after he had been arrested on the kidnapping charges. It was August that he got arrested for
01:06:05
kidnapping. I mean, those bones are not That's not great. Doesn't look good. not great for you, man.
01:06:10
No, it's definitely not. No. I mean, you're right. I need to know why. Guys, email us if you have like a
01:06:18
furnace in your backyard that you use as a burn pit, and or if you have any kind
01:06:22
of furnace, and why you would have chicken bones in there. Yeah, like maybe I'm just not thinking
01:06:26
it through cuz I don't have a burn pit or anything like that. I don't I just don't understand why that would happen,
01:06:31
but maybe I'm wrong. Unless I don't Like if you're a farmer and like you are disposing of the rest
01:06:37
like the chicken carcass, I don't know. Yeah, and it's like, "Okay, I guess you would burn it, I suppose." Would you? I
01:06:43
don't know. I'm not a farmer. have no idea. I don't know. That's why I'm I'm just more like, "What
01:06:48
the fuck?" Is that weird? I mean, the fact that there's bones that they could and I know that it's one of
01:06:53
those things where it's like we can't definitively say either way, so it makes it like
01:06:59
scary. But like I don't know. I don't know. know. I don't know. We And again, remember, can't definitively say, but
01:07:06
most likely chicken bones. Well, that's the thing, and I think that's the thing that we all need to
01:07:11
like concentrate on is they're leaning more towards it being a chicken bone, but they can't there's
01:07:18
something that's holding them back from just conclusively saying that. Exactly. It's one of those things like prove
01:07:23
beyond a reasonable doubt kind of thing. if I were on the jury and they said, you
01:07:27
know, these bones were found, I'd be like, "Holy shit." Yeah. But then if they said you know, they
01:07:33
most of them are consistent with chicken bones. Like if they sat there and said 80% of them are chicken bones, 20 are
01:07:38
undetermined, but consistent, your mind would go, "Those are chicken bones. Why would they be human bones?"
01:07:44
Like why would those 20% be human bones? Yeah, exactly. But like But it could be.
01:07:50
happen, but again, that's a reasonable doubt, right? Exactly. It's hard to prove beyond a
01:07:55
reasonable doubt. It is. It really is. Absolutely. But what was this about Heidi Allen
01:08:00
being involved in a drug deal? I told you all about Heidi Allen in the beginning of this, and not once did she
01:08:05
sound like the kind of girl who would be involved in any kind of drug deal. No, that's when you started saying that, my
01:08:11
mind was like, "What?" You're like, "What the fuck?" we're trying to put her there? What?"
01:08:15
And most people were confused and shocked when they heard about this. They were like, "I That doesn't make sense.
01:08:19
Like we know Heidi. This is a small town. I don't know about that." I don't know
01:08:23
about that. But it turns out that the local police had been using Heidi as an informant since she was 15 years old.
01:08:32
What the [ __ ] And that is where we're wrapping for part one. Oh my god, she was an informant?
01:08:40
She was an informant. She was Well, that changes everything. forced to become an informant, but
01:08:46
that's all I'm going to say right now. Whoa. And I will tell you exactly why in the
01:08:51
beginning of part two, and then we are going to go over some shady investigations where when you're
01:08:58
involved in a court case, both sides, the defense and the prosecution, have to show each other everything that they're
01:09:05
going to use in court. That didn't happen here. Oh, good. Files were hidden, tucked away.
01:09:11
Justice, you know. There's going to be a secret recorded conversation that somebody else may have been involved in
01:09:18
this. There's another murder that we're going to touch upon. There's a lot coming up in part two.
01:09:25
Wow. That was wild. I didn't see that coming at all and now I'm even more worried for Heidi. Yeah, it's a it's a
01:09:32
lot. This case is absolutely heartbreaking. And the thing that stinks is, you know,
01:09:38
like maybe justice was served. It might have been, but there is a reasonable doubt in the mind of a lot of people.
01:09:44
There's questions. There's questions and there just shouldn't be. Like I wish for everybody
01:09:49
involved that there didn't have to be questions. That's the thing. It's when there's
01:09:53
questions lingering at the end, then justice has not been served. Exactly. So, that's not good.
01:10:00
Yeah, so this is coming out What is it? This is coming out on Wednesday and part
01:10:04
two is going to come out on Friday. So, we won't make you wait too long. Yeah, it's going to be back-to-back.
01:10:08
Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool. So, um, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you
01:10:13
how we ended that. Keep weird. weird that you forget how to end your own show that you've been doing for four
01:10:19
years. That's actually a lot. Bye. Bye.