00:00:06
Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is [Music] Morbid. This is Bork Beetle. Hi everybody. Hello. What's up?
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Uh, not a lot. No, no, there's not a lot. Oh, I haven't checked on my Finch today. Oh. Oh my god. I'm like 30 days
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into my Finch, so we're really rocking and rolling. Well, yeah, I'm like 20. I think today's day 28. I'm I'm going to
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have to have you take the mic for start today. Well, my Finch is in uh Sydney, Australia. So, mine is in Taipei. Hey
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guys in Australia, if you see my finch Gatsby walking around there, tell them I said hi. Well, Big Anch said, "I can't
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decide. Is it better to be super strong or super fast?" Oo, I think super fast. I mean, whatever you feel. Super fast.
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She says, "I wish I was fast. That would mean the yellow cat that chases me would
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never be able to keep up with me." And she got 6.1 points for security. A, she's a queen bee. Um, this isn't
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sponsored. I genuinely needed to check in on my Finch live. I'm saying she's all set. Yeah, you can't just Siri, I'm
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not talking. Siri's like, "I'm sorry." She's like, "I can't check in on your Finch. You have to." And I'm like,
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"Well, I did." Guys, I hope you I mean, I talked about this like weeks ago. The Finch app. Yeah. I want to know if you
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guys did it. Did you do it? Did you do it? What's your Finch's name? Did you yell it really loud at all this? Oh,
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they did. Okay. Yeah, a lot of you did. I heard you. Yeah. Somebody Oh, Larry. We have a Larry. Larry, thank you for
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trying. Yeah. No, no, they named their Finch Larry. I don't know. Oh, I thought it was Larry who tried it. No, I'm sure
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we have a Larry who might have tried it as well. Maybe. I don't know. I believe you. I'm just [ __ ] We just finished
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watching um season six final episode of Buffy. If you listen to the rewatcher, you know how we feel about season 6. Uh
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I left the room during the season 6 finale. So, we're feeling some type of way right now. I faked a walk out. Yeah,
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it's true. If you want to She did like a She did a housewives style walk out. I did the reunion. I did. I really did.
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But I came back and that's all that counts. Um, if you want to hear our extra thoughts on all of Buffy, cuz the
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beginning seasons of Buffy are fantastic, and we've had so much fun talking about it and we've even had fun
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talking about this season. Go listen to the rewatcher. You should. We're about to end season 6 and go into season 7.
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So, I have a whole new season adventure awaiting me. Join us. All right. Um, I have a bummer of a case
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today. We were talking, I think the last time we got together, maybe we were talking about um, David Carpenter. David
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Carpenter, the Trailside Killer. The Trailside Killer. And that was just like a very uh, it was riddled with
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misjustice, injustice. if you will. Miss Justice. I like that. Miss Justice was in here, but she left. Yeah.
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She left halfway through that case. She did. Yeah. Uh this is another case where
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Justice is interesting. Oh, okay. Okay. We're going to be talking about the preppy killer, Robert Chambers, who
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killed Jennifer Don Leven. Uh and we're going to talk about that entire case. So, Jennifer Don Leven was born May
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21st, 1968 in Port Washington, New York. Her parents were Ste are Steven and Ellen Leven, a realtor and a homemaker.
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Jennifer and her older sister Danielle were raised on Long Island's Northshore, pretty much a haven for wealthier
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families who wanted like quiet home life kind of vibe, but still have access to the city. That makes sense. I love Long
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Island. Even though she came from a wealthy family and she really didn't want for a lot, Jennifer insisted on
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doing things for herself when she wanted anything, like if she wanted a new Walkman or new clothes, anything like
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that. She didn't go to like, "Oh, let me go ask my parents." She figured out how
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she could get it without their help. Yeah. And she So, she's like She's an independent woman. She is. Yeah. She's
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getting her [ __ ] done. She did. And like at an early age, too. Yeah. Her stepmother, Arlene Leven, said her first
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thought was, "How can I make the money to get it, not buy it for me?" Which I love. I love that. Yeah. It's fantastic.
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That's honestly such a rare like viewpoint for such a young person, you know, to be like, "Well, I'll figure out
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how to get it myself." Usually, it's just like, "Well, mom and dad won't do it." That wasn't my viewpoint.
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But in 1973, when Jennifer was 5 years old, her parents did end up divorcing. Steven, her father, moved to an
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apartment in Manhattan, and Ellen stayed on Long Island with Danielle and Jennifer. And despite the separation,
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Jennifer and her sister managed to remain close to both their parents. And they even developed a good relationship
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with a few years later with Steven's new wife, Arlene. Ellen, Jennifer's mom, said about Jennifer, "She just made
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people smile by just walking into a room." Oh. Which is like, you could feel that. Yeah. And her charm and affection
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wasn't just limited to friends, just not limited only to family. Once, just before she was scheduled to take her
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driving test, she talked a Manhattan cab driver into teaching her how to parallel
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park. [ __ ] iconic. What a savvy savvy person. That is wild. And like picture a
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Manhattan cab driver. They don't have time for your [ __ ] I know. They're always like on to the next. Somehow she
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had the charm to be like, "Listen, I got to I got a test coming up and I got you
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got to help me, man. I love you." So, after finishing junior high on Long Island, she moved in with her father and
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her stepmother in Manhattan. Um, mostly so that she could attend the Baldwin School, which was a private high school
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on New York's Upper West Side. Oo. According to Arlene Leven, Jennifer's desire to attend private school was as
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much a matter of fear as it was anything else. She actually believed all urban public schools were dangerous places.
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She was very afraid to go to public school. Oh, okay. Which I don't maybe at the time it was like a little bit rough.
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I'm not positive. Yeah. I don't know how like in that area how they are now. Yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah. But anyway,
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she thrived at Baldwin School and quickly developed her own really independent personality. She wasn't
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really your typical teenager. Her friends and classmates mostly kind of gravitated toward pop music and
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television, but Jennifer herself preferred adult contemporary music. And she said that she'd rather work out than
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watch TV. And she also became a vegetarian at a pretty young age just for the health benefits. Damn, she
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sounds cool as hell. She does sound cool. I want to be her friend. Yeah. Now, also unlike her peers who relied
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mostly on their parents for money, as soon as she was able to, Jennifer got a part-time job as a hostess at Fluties, a
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bar in lower Manhattan. I feel like I don't know if I've been there, but I've definitely heard of it. Yeah. Right. It
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really does. I don't know if it's like from something. Uh, but her manager said, "Never once did I see her come to
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work with anything but a smile." A more on her uh job at Fluties later. There's like another anecdote in my tail here,
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but when it came to romance and relationships, Jennifer, who had been voted best looking in her senior class,
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Jennifer, snap, snap. She was pretty non-committal. You're in high school. You don't need to be committ. Exactly.
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So, when she started dating in her junior year, she spent a lot of time with Brock Perise, a student at York
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Prep, which is an elite uh prep school pretty similar to Baldwin. That sounds fancy as hell. Pretty much all of them
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are fancy as hell. Anything prep sounds like Whoa. I always think that. Yeah. Now, Brock said Jennifer was a really
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cute girl, fun, happy golucky. She loved the club scene, and she was very innocent. I took her to a Billy Idol
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concert on our first date. Oh my god. Yeah, that's what a banger of a first date. Sick ass first date. And then he
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said, "But it wasn't until weeks later that I first kissed her at the Peppermint Lounge and then I couldn't
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leave her." It sounds like he really really liked her a lot. It's It gives me butterflies.
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Wow. Yeah. It's It's very like young love. Brock surprised me because to be honest, the name Brock like gives me
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pause sometimes. We're conditioned from a certain television. I was going to say
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I've been conditioned, but actually two television shows where my Reba fans at. Yeah. So, it's like I I'm I love that. I
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love that about Brock. I do too. Now, around that same time, Jennifer and her friends all managed to get fake IDs.
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Whoa. You gota You are a New York upper eastider. Don't do that. I'm not telling
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you to, but I'm just saying retroactively you had to. retroactively. Yeah, of course. So, they became
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regulars at Dorian's Red Hand. Great name for a bar. Wow. I love that. Yeah, it was a Manhattan bar popular with
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college students. Damn. Now, even though she was dating Brock Perise at the time,
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Jennifer also started casually dating a couple of the guys that she met at Dorian's because remember, you can do
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whatever the [ __ ] you want to do. Yeah. And she's casually dating. She's in high
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school. Yeah. It's it's high school. It's high school. It doesn't matter at all.
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But that included a short period where she dated Robert Chambers, a guy who had attended York Prep with Brock himself.
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Whoa. No. I also feel like guys date multiple women all the time. And it's never You don't even need to feel like
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that. That's That's reality. That's just a fact. And it's never a part of the story. No. But as soon as a girl dates
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multiple guys, it becomes part of the story. Well, it becomes part of her personality, part of her character, part
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of her DNA. that's goes on her, you know, resume. Like it's normal to date around and find out what you like and
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who you want to hang out with. And like you're you're not dating to marry in high school. And if I mean, maybe you
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get so lucky that you meet that person that you're going to marry, but Yeah. I wish I had dated like more different
00:09:54
people in high school. I wish I had dated less people in high school. The same person that I dated for all of high
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school. Yeah, you heard. Yeah. But with Perd, you know. Yeah. But I support this
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and it I'm harping on it because it becomes a major aspect of this case and it pisses me off that she gets she gets
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very much [ __ ] railroaded for it. Yeah. So let's talk about Robert a little bit.
00:10:18
Robert Chambers. Sure. Robert EMTT Chambers Jr. was born September 25th, 1966 in Queens, New York. He was the
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only child born to Phyllis and Robert Chambers Senior, a nurse and an employee for MCA. For the first few years of his
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life, the family lived in the working-class neighborhood of Jackson Heights. And then they actually moved to
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a more upscale neighborhood in the Upper East Side. Oh, I just can't like hear the Upper East Side without thinking of
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Gossip Girl. Ah, I I think of Cruel Intentions. I'm the Marsha [ __ ] Brady of the Upper
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East Side and sometimes I want to kill myself. That's a direct quote, not me. Movie. Yeah, I love that movie. I'm
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going to go watch that later. She's a [ __ ] icon in that movie. She's so good in that movie. Mhm. So scary.
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Honestly, so scary. Everyone is so good in that movie. Oh, everyone's A+ in that. That movie is a [ __ ] plus. The
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fact that they tried to remake it. Don't get me started. I think they're actively remaking it into a TV show
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right now. Um, yeah. Stop. Because you can't you can't remake that. You can't bottle stop. You can't bottle that time.
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No, you can't. And that kind of and though that that it cast, you cannot bottle that. So good.
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And just the look. It's got Tara Reed in it. You can't What are you doing trying
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to make that again? I always forget that Tara Reed is a She starts the whole damn
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thing. She sure does. Hell yeah. Oh my god. Her crying scenes are always the best. That movie. That movie is in my
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DNA. It's a retweet. Me, too. I cry every time. Oh my god. When she's going up the escalator. Yeah. Oh, and the end.
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When she drives across the bridge, coffee black and egg white. Oh my god. We've we've gone on too long. So,
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the Upper East Side period. Yeah. Sorry. That's what makes us think of that. By a
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lot of accounts, Robert's parents were in a lot of ways pretty handsoff and they were kind of emotionally
00:12:08
unavailable. Like they struggled to provide the best education for him. That was a that was a
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drive that they had, but they didn't really support him like emotionally and like they didn't support his social
00:12:19
development. Ah, they just wanted the best education, but they weren't thinking of like making him a
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well-rounded individual. Exactly. They were very focused on education, which is great, but there's more aspects to a
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child's upbringing. There's definitely more to life. Yeah, exactly. More to a human. Yeah. Now, he would be portrayed
00:12:37
by the press uh interestingly later in his later years. But Robert Chambers background was a lot more modest
00:12:43
actually than it appeared. Throughout a lot of his life, he attended elite prep schools, but his mom worked nights as a
00:12:49
nurse in order to pay for his tuition. Oh, wow. And her income rarely covered the entire tuition. So the fees he were
00:12:56
covered by like a scholarship. He was there on scholarship and by his mom's hard work. His mom sounds like a badass
00:13:03
in that retro in that respect. She does definitely like really working her ass off for a kid. She was. Yeah. And his
00:13:09
status as one of the least wealthy kids in school usually made him feel kind of inferior, socially isolated. Think Dan
00:13:16
Humphrey's and I was just going to say this sounds very like written by a showrunner. It does. You know, it's it's
00:13:22
very that. Yeah. But the thing was even though he felt that way like internally outwardly he seemed pretty popular. He
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had a lot of friends. His classmates liked him. So this was very much an an internal struggle that he was going
00:13:35
through. Okay. But outside of school he was an alter boy at the family's church.
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He was a member of the children of the American Revolution which is always interesting. It always makes me think of
00:13:45
Gilmore Girls. It always makes me think of that. And he was an officer in something I've never heard of before but
00:13:50
gives very American Revolutiony vibes. And he was an officer in the Nickerbacher Grace, which is a drill
00:13:56
team for children of wealthy New York families. That doesn't even sound real. I know.
00:14:03
That sounds like something somebody made up. It does to make me feel stupid. Maybe they did. By being like, "This is
00:14:08
a real thing." Maybe they did. Wow. Well, Phyllis, his mom, served as the board president of the Gays at the time.
00:14:15
Wow. And she told a reporter, "It's a very tough world out there. A boy who receives this training is less likely to
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fall by the wayside later on. The Grays teaches what society should be about the
00:14:24
nicities of life. Wow. It's very like Yeah. See, I'm I'm psyched about my kids knowing karate. There you go. And
00:14:33
how to, you know, beat the [ __ ] out of a man. Someone in the throat. There you
00:14:38
go. But like I guess Yeah. different for different folks. Different vibes for what's important. I guess I I think you
00:14:44
should go be the president of the Nickerbach or Grays. Personally, it sounds wild. I'm looking it up right now
00:14:49
cuz I've just never heard of that. I had never heard of it before either. I mean,
00:14:52
the good news is their 142nd season is starting. Well, a lot of seasons. I didn't realize they had seasons. Yeah,
00:14:59
apparently it's like a team. This is very interesting. It is. Well, like I said, Robert might have felt like an
00:15:05
outsider, but the messages he got from his peers pretty much contradicted his self-image entirely. Like I was just
00:15:12
saying, yeah, he was 6'4. He weighed 220 lbs. He's a sturdy guy. He was very popular with the girls. And they were
00:15:18
all drawn to his quote shy and secretive charm. Oh yeah, secretive charm. I don't
00:15:24
know about that. It was a different time. So the combination of his sense of inferiority and the overwhelmingly
00:15:30
positive encouragement that he got from his classmates resulted in him becoming the kind of guy with a chip on his
00:15:35
shoulder. Ah like 100%. And a very huge sense of entitlement also. Oh, I could Yeah, I could I could feel that vibe
00:15:42
starting to come. He he's giving like tortured poet. Oh yeah. Without writing poetry. See, and let me just like quick
00:15:47
little thing. Secret of charm is never charming unless his secret is he's like a vampire. Like that's the only And even
00:15:55
then that's a little messy. That's the only like a real vampire. Like that's legit, babe. Legit. Yeah. You never want
00:16:02
secrets. It's not a good good thing to go after. Yeah. No. No. Secret of charm isn't really like a a descriptor I've
00:16:10
heard before. Secret secrets are no fun. Secret Secrets hurt someone. Mhm. But he
00:16:15
started to deal with his insecurities by engaging in some casual drug use. Casual. Casual. And other illegal
00:16:22
activities like um petty theft and vandalism. Very casual. You have to deal with your secret charm in a certain way.
00:16:29
Casual. Uh soon his grades began to slip. He lost his scholarship, which is real shitty because his mom worked her
00:16:35
ass off. Yeah, I was going to say. And he was also kicked out of school. Oh yeah. Damn. Yeah. You buried that lead.
00:16:42
So, your secret of charm didn't get you really anywhere, bud. This increasingly destructive behav behavior even took a
00:16:47
toll on his relationship with his oldest friends. His closest friend at the time,
00:16:51
John uh Tenko, said, "I just realized it was a dead end. One night, a group of us
00:16:56
were h hanging out at this bar on East 85th Street. I remember thinking how pathetic the conversation was. We were
00:17:01
just joking around in this cynical matter manner that we have, but I had stopped drinking a few weeks before, and
00:17:06
I couldn't relate to it at all. I stood up and told them to go to hell and walked out." Whoa.
00:17:11
This whole thing is like a TV show/m movie. It is. It's very dramatic. Yeah. Looking back, John Deligo said that, you
00:17:18
know, he wished he'd been more honest with Robert and tried to help him make some kind of positive change before it
00:17:23
was too late, but hindsight's 2020. Yeah. And that's not totally up to everybody else. No. And also, he's a
00:17:30
teenager, so he doesn't have all the resources that he needs to make Robert better, you know. Exactly. But
00:17:36
thankfully, Robert was able to enroll at York Prep, a new school. But it was with
00:17:40
the understanding that he would get his life together, work hard to graduate, and get into a good college. It's
00:17:46
unknown whether he maintained good grades during his senior year at York. But what is clear is that his drug use
00:17:52
unfortunately did not stop. Actually, if anything, it got worse. Throughout that
00:17:57
year, he got in trouble for alcohol abuse. He developed a very serious cocaine habit, and that cocaine habit
00:18:03
affected almost every part of his life, of course, as it does. But somehow even with all that going on, he did manage to
00:18:10
get accepted to Boston University. [ __ ] Yeah. Uh in large part, according to one
00:18:15
former friend, because of his high test scores. That a good school, man. That's a great school. It's very impressive.
00:18:20
Yeah. So after his graduation from York in 1985, so he did graduate. He moved to
00:18:25
Boston. Whoop whoop whoop whooping Boston. I was going to say Yeah. And he started the year in Boston University's
00:18:31
basic studies program. uh which basically it was established by the school to help students who struggled
00:18:37
social or emotionally during high school. Oh, which is really cool. I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah.
00:18:43
So, the new city and the supportive program work this big chance for Robert to start over and establish some new
00:18:50
more responsible habits and get his life back on track. For sure. And that's a big chance. You get into Boston
00:18:55
University and you get this like kind of like I don't want to say handholding but
00:19:00
for lack of a better term and you like you got to do the most with that. You got to do the most with that. Um
00:19:07
unfortunately he did not. He fell back on old habits and according to his friends he quote used the school as an
00:19:13
excuse to party and hang out. Oh what? That's such [ __ ] And it's like why bother? I'm sure that program was
00:19:19
beneficial for so many other people. That's the thing who didn't get to use it because you took their spot. Yeah.
00:19:24
Like and exactly like that pisses me off. Who would have actually used it? Yeah. Like some maybe somebody who
00:19:30
didn't get into it or even there was people there that probably like Yeah, exactly. Mhm. So after just one semester
00:19:37
at Boston University, he was kicked out of the program for academic reasons. And
00:19:42
just returned back to his parents in New York where it seemed like he picked up Yeah. He seemed like he picked up right
00:19:47
where he left off there. His father was away on business trips a lot and his mom
00:19:51
was still working nights at the hospital. So he spent a lot of his nights at the bars, at the clubs in
00:19:56
Manhattan, just acting basically like he was still in high school with no responsibilities whatsoever. Awesome.
00:20:02
Yeah. Fantastic. Now, Jennifer, on the contrary, by the time she had reached her senior year up, uh, Baldwin, she
00:20:09
started having difficulties with her parents. According to friends, Jennifer had moved in with her father and her
00:20:14
stepmother, not only to attend Baldwin, like I was saying, but also for the added discipline that she felt that
00:20:20
environment would offer. Okay. One journalist wrote, "Though she was close to her mother, she told friends that her
00:20:25
mother was more of a friend than a parent, which that can be difficult." And that relationship might not have
00:20:31
provided the structure that she was looking for, but it seems like life with her father and her stepmother in
00:20:36
Manhattan also left a lot to be desired in a different way. Friends remembered that she constantly resented her
00:20:43
stepmother and that often led to fights with her father or with her father and stepmother. Oh man. Yeah. One of her
00:20:49
close friends said she used to call me in tears and come sleep over at my house because of fights with her dad. They
00:20:54
were just about the usual things, coming home late, cleaning her room, getting her priorities straight, but she never
00:20:59
really felt comfortable living there. A which is sad. It's also I think a very common problem amongst teenagers. Well,
00:21:06
I was going to say it's also very teenager. Yeah. Like angsty teenager. Yeah. And also I think like having
00:21:13
divorced parents like you leave one house because it's not super desirable and you think the other house is going
00:21:18
to be this great place where nowhere's perfect. Yeah. Nowhere's perfect. Exactly. Yeah. But like Robert Chambers,
00:21:25
Jennifer did also turn to substance use and partying as a kind of escape from the pressures that she felt at home. It
00:21:31
doesn't seem like she developed the same addiction problems that Robert was going
00:21:34
through, but her desire to party often times outweighed her responsibilities like school and work, which again very
00:21:43
typical of a lot of teenagers. Yeah, this is exactly what I was like 100%. Um, and obviously the fact that she's
00:21:50
prioritizing partying over school, over her responsibilities at work, and home, it's resulting in bad grades and
00:21:56
probably some more tension at home. Yeah. According to uh Daniel Kimell, the principal at Baldwin, Jennifer was a
00:22:02
quote good average student. She probably wasn't expecting to get into Harvard or
00:22:05
Yale, but she was studious and responsible enough to get accepted to some very reasonable schools or excuse
00:22:10
me, respectable schools. Now, for her friends who knew her best, the change in her personality started right around the
00:22:17
summer of 1985. At that time, she was working actually at a boutique in the Hampton.
00:22:22
She wasn't actually working at Fluties yet. Um, and she was spending more and more time with some new friends that
00:22:27
she'd met in the club scene, okay? Which you can imagine probably not the best influences. Brock, her first boyfriend
00:22:32
there said, "I remember when I met her. She was a little miss innocent. I saw her change grow up real quick in the
00:22:38
city." Yeah. He said the unchange the the change was unwelcome and pretty disappointing. Oh man. He said, "I tried
00:22:45
to do other things with her like other than go to the club." Yeah. He said, "We went to the theater, formals,
00:22:50
restaurants, but she always had to go by Dorian's. That's where our friends were.
00:22:54
Oh man. Yeah. So, remember these are like very, very wealthy kids with literally no adult supervision
00:23:02
whatsoever. Oh, yeah. They were living like adults, but they didn't have the emotional maturity that
00:23:08
usually comes with age, which is very like I'm not trying to be like silly here when I say it's very Gossip Girl,
00:23:15
like you know, I mean, like the whole like kids living very adult lives, having very adult drama, but in like a
00:23:22
kids setting and it comes with adult problems and repercussions, you know. Yeah, exactly. A close friend said, "We
00:23:30
act like we were adults. Most of us have credit cards. We all drink. We all fool
00:23:34
around. Have flings. Like truly very straight up like Sex in the City style. Like Yeah. But these are kids. But kids.
00:23:41
So that summer while she was still seeing Brock, Jennifer again casually dated a few different guys like I said,
00:23:45
including Robert Chambers, who was also working on the Hamptons that summer and their social circles kind of overlapped
00:23:52
with each others. Nothing really came of the brief relationship with Robert Chambers actually. But for Brock, it was
00:23:58
the beginning of the end. That winter, he and Jennifer broke up for the first of what would be short several short
00:24:04
breakups before finally ending things for good a few months later. And Jennifer wasn't the only one struggling
00:24:10
to find her place in 1985. After he got kicked out of Boston University, Robert Chambers's life was spiraling out of
00:24:17
control. It was a very slow spiral at first, I think, when he left school, but then things really started gearing up.
00:24:24
Uhoh. He managed to find work at like some lowpaying jobs. He actually even took a few college courses at Hunter
00:24:30
College, but his drug use was overtaking everything. It was becoming his biggest
00:24:35
priority. Yeah. He wasn't really hurting for money. But that fall, he fell in with a group of young guys from wealthy
00:24:41
families who just um broke into people's houses around the city for fun. Oh, cool. Yeah. You know, as as groups of
00:24:49
young men do. Just, you know, just kids being boys being boys. Guys being dudes.
00:24:54
Yeah. Guys being bros. Yeah, that's casual. Yeah, that's fine. They stole jewelry, other expensive items like that
00:25:00
just for fun. Yeah. An acquaintance of his of Robert Sounds like the bling ring. Yeah, I know. Honestly. Yeah, it
00:25:06
really does. An acquaintance of his said, "We went out to dinner at America once and he pulled out a credit card
00:25:11
that wasn't his and joking jokingly said, "Should I use this tonight?" What the [ __ ] No, you douchebag. What the
00:25:17
[ __ ] But this is so entitled like spoiled rich kid behavior. It's very cliche. Yeah, like this part of it. Like
00:25:25
that's why it's very like what you think spoiled rich kids in Manhattan are going
00:25:30
to be. You know, it's got not necessarily what they are, but like this is very what atyp it's very typical of
00:25:36
what you would think. Yeah, it's very stereotypical. It's very like clueless bling ring, Gossip Girl. Like it's got
00:25:42
all of those vibes. Even um remember the Sex in the City um like prequel that they did? I don't think you watched it.
00:25:51
It was a banger. I think it only got like one or two seasons. I loved I'm a purist. I get it. No sequel, no reboot.
00:25:58
No, I get it. The the prequel was pretty good, though, and it reminds me of this.
00:26:01
But anyway, as the year went on, so did Robert's excessive drug use and now theft. Before long, he moved on from
00:26:08
stealing from strangers to just straight up stealing from people he knew, like his friends. On nights when people when
00:26:14
Robert had been at their homes, his friends and acquaintances would notice that money had gone missing. Wow. Which
00:26:20
it's like if he's willing to do it to people he doesn't know, of course he's going to start doing it. Like you can't
00:26:25
trust that guy. That's such a big escalation. It is. Like stealing in general is so [ __ ] up and stealing
00:26:30
from strangers is [ __ ] up. Stealing from your friends is [ __ ] up on a whole other level. Of course it is. It's
00:26:35
wild. But at popular hangouts like Dorian's Red Hand, even the customers frequently complained to management that
00:26:42
money and credit cards were going missing from their pocketbooks, their coats. And a lot of times people knew
00:26:48
that it was Robert, but they just didn't want to confront him because, you know,
00:26:52
he's this like wealthy kid. He comes from a good wealthy family. So there was rarely any consequences. But everybody
00:26:58
knew what he was doing. Yeah. And he was just allowed to get away with it. Yeah.
00:27:01
Now that spring he went to Palm Beach to visit some friends. And while he was gone, his mother was cleaning up his
00:27:06
bedroom and she found evidence of his ongoing drug use. And she called, this is actually really smart on her behalf.
00:27:14
She called him and she said he needed to come home immediately because somebody was sick. Whoa. But when he turned home,
00:27:19
it turned out they were having an intervention for him. Like he was the one who was sick. And a few days later,
00:27:25
he did agree to go to a drug rehab facility. He went to Hazelden Foundation in Minnesota and he spent the next month
00:27:32
there detoxing and learning the skills that he would need to, you know, stay clean once he got back home. But I think
00:27:37
that's so smart the way she did that. Oh yeah, of course it is. Made sure he got
00:27:41
home. And she's not lying. Yeah. someone saying someone's sick. Yeah. You know, so he went to rehab, he cleaned up, he
00:27:48
spent a month there. He came back to New York uh from Minnesota in late May of 1986 and enthusially announced that he
00:27:55
had k kicked his uh cocaine habit for good and he was ready to start fresh. Wow. I mean, sounds good. Yeah, it would
00:28:01
have been exciting, but here we are talking about it. But here we are. He's on morbid, so it's not good. He actually
00:28:07
even found work as a painter. He was a caretaker for his neighbor at this time. But a lot of people around him who are
00:28:13
closer to him were questioning how he was actually doing. A close friend said in a way he was too positive. Most
00:28:20
people when they got out of rehab are realistic. But Rob always wanted to think that he could handle anything. And
00:28:26
it soon started to become obvious to those again close to him around him more frequently that he was still struggling.
00:28:33
And he started drinking again in no time and then smoking pot. And then it escalated. Oh man. Meanwhile, Jennifer
00:28:40
had also started making major changes in her life. In late spring, she spent some
00:28:44
time visiting colleges in Boston. Boston. Boston, baby. And she eventually applied and was accepted to Chamberlain
00:28:52
Junior College, which is a school with Mount Ida. I feel like people talked about Mount Ida all the time around
00:28:57
here. Yeah. So many people go there. Yeah. Everyone goes there. Everybody. Mount Ida. Mount Ida. When she got back
00:29:03
to New York, she found that was when she found her part-time uh hostess job at Fluties. Oh, okay. And according to
00:29:09
friends, the job interview at Fluties actually didn't go as well as she hoped it would. But like she had so many times
00:29:15
before, her charm just worked for her. And eventually she won them over. I love it. Her friend Betsy remembered she had
00:29:21
to wait three or four hours for an interview, which I'd leave at that point. So like, good for her. I
00:29:26
seriously And when the guy saw her, he told her he was she wasn't right for the job. So she grabbed him by the shoulders
00:29:31
and told him she was great with people and about all the jobs she's had she had had selling and made him fall in love
00:29:36
with her. and she got the job. Wow. Yeah. Jennifer is sounds like such a badass. Like a hot ticket. She That's
00:29:42
exactly what she sounds like, you know? Yeah. And like imagine having that hoodpa at that age, like grabbing the
00:29:48
man by his shoulders and being like, "No, I got this, dude." She's she sounds to me like a like a like a young Blanch
00:29:55
Devo. Yes. You know, like she's got that vibe to her where she's just like, "Fuck
00:29:59
it. I can do it." Yeah. She's a straight shooter. She's a sass master. I like it.
00:30:03
She is. So things were looking up for her at this point. Her future was very bright. Everything was on the up and up.
00:30:10
But things were not going as well for Robert. All through the summer, he kept telling his friends and family that he
00:30:15
was working on getting his life back on track. He was going to enroll in courses
00:30:19
at Colombia. But by the end of August, he hadn't enrolled in any classes. Hadn't found a permanent job. He was
00:30:25
also stealing from friends and acquaintances again. Everybody was like, "Oh, he's backsliding and this is not
00:30:31
good." And it was not. On the evening of August 25th, Jennifer and some of her friends decided to go out to Dorian's
00:30:37
Red Hand for one last night out on the town. She's going to be leaving soon. She's going to be moving to Boston,
00:30:43
starting her new life. And as it turned out, actually, Brock had been accepted to Northeastern. So, Jennifer hoped that
00:30:50
they could reconnect and start seeing each other again. Ah, yeah. It was true that she had gone on a few dates with
00:30:56
Robert Chambers, but insisted, quote, "Her thing with Chambers was no big thing, just a crush. nothing at all like
00:31:03
the serious relationship she had with Brock. She was really hopeful. I really I like Brock. I do too. Okay, good.
00:31:10
Yeah, I do too. I was like, tell me I can like Brock. I only know very minimal things, but what from what I do know
00:31:14
what I know I like. Yeah. Now, that night, uh, Robert Chambers had made plans also to meet up with a girl that
00:31:20
he'd been dating for a short time. And they decided to go to Dorian's Red Hand together. Again, like I said, very
00:31:25
popular spot. They had been there a few hours by the time Jennifer and her friends arrived just before midnight.
00:31:30
and everybody had been drinking. Uh despite her stated desire to reconcile with Brock, Jennifer was still pretty
00:31:37
excited when she saw Robert that night and she told friends apparently that she quote wanted to go home with him later.
00:31:43
Remember they dated before casually. She was excited about the future, but she still wanted to live it up and have, you
00:31:48
know, one last harrah before leaving the city. I get it. Why not? According to Lissa Thompson, one of the girls that
00:31:54
Jennifer had been out with that night, Jennifer quote, "Immediately made a beline for Robert's table when she saw
00:31:59
him at Dorian's and seated herself at the table." One of the customers at the bar said she was very flirtatious,
00:32:06
definitely outgoing. Robert Chambers, on the other hand, was distracted, it seemed, and occasionally even
00:32:12
disinterested, people said. He chatted with Jennifer for a little bit, but at multiple points throughout the night, he
00:32:18
would just get up and walk away only to return a short time later, which to me says something something. It
00:32:26
says um yeah, it says he needs a break. Maybe some stuff's going on. Lots of people go
00:32:32
to New York bathrooms for this. They they do. Just ask I mean they they yell about it on housewives seasons. They do,
00:32:39
I think. What were people doing in your bathroom? Yeah. Now, when asked about his mood that night, Robert explained
00:32:44
that he was depressed about a friend from rehab who had recently died. Who knows? Yeah. Whether it was his
00:32:50
emotional upset or his interest in talking to Jennifer, he spent most of the night ignoring the girl he was on a
00:32:56
date with. Wow. So finally after an hour had passed without him speaking to her,
00:33:01
she approached the table and that he was sitting at and threw a bag of condoms in
00:33:06
his face and told him he could quote use these with someone else because you're not going to get the chance to use them
00:33:11
with me and stormed out of the bar again. Wow. Is this like I'm like what? That's a that's a queen move right
00:33:19
there. That's a that's Wow. Like wow. If your date is ever ignoring you, do that.
00:33:25
Yeah. If I saw someone do that, slow clap. I would talk about it for the rest of my life. For the rest of my life.
00:33:31
That would be the first thing I brought up. Any new person I met, I'd be like, "Can I tell you this crazy thing that I
00:33:36
saw?" Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I would. Yeah. Most people forgettable. That girl, not forgettable. Well, the date
00:33:45
theatrical exit from Dorian's was also a great opportunity for Jennifer because,
00:33:50
you know, she wanted to hang out with Robert that night. Yeah. So, now this girl's not on her way anymore. Well, she
00:33:55
left. So, she wasted no time settling in next to Robert at the table. But for all
00:34:01
her directness and enthusiasm, for some reason, she wasn't comfortable propositioning Robert directly. Like, I
00:34:07
get that you don't want to be like, "You want to get out of here, man?" Yeah. And
00:34:10
I mean, he's just had a bag, a literal bag of condoms thrown at him. Yeah. In public. Yeah. He might be. So, that
00:34:16
might have made it a little weird. It probably did. Yeah. So, instead, she had a friend ask him to meet her outside of
00:34:23
the bar. The friend later said he just tilted his head like she's driving me crazy and said, "I don't think so. I
00:34:28
don't want to deal with it." Which is rude. Go tell her that yourself. Yeah. Now, he might not have wanted to meet
00:34:35
Jennifer outside the bar, but that definitely didn't mean that he was uninterested because when Jennifer's
00:34:40
friends left Dorian's a little past 2 a.m., they remembered seeing her still sitting at a table with Robert and
00:34:45
engaging in what appeared to be a very serious conversation. So, what the [ __ ]
00:34:50
Yeah, they were clearly like carrying on. Yeah. So, a little before 4:30 a.m., several more friends saw Robert and
00:34:56
Jennifer get up from the table and leave Dorian's headed in the direction of Central Park. A friend said, "Usually
00:35:02
she'd come over and give me a big hug and tell me she'd call me tomorrow, but this time she didn't." I remember she
00:35:07
looked sort of mellow, putting her jacket over her shoulder, pulling her hair, and crossing the street like there
00:35:12
was no problem. So, she didn't seem like agitated or like upset, anything like that. She seemed fine with Robert, but
00:35:19
it was a little weird that she didn't say goodbye to anybody. like it wasn't like her. Yeah. So, that's why it's
00:35:26
pretty unclear why the two of them did go into the park that morning because they did go into Central Park. Friends
00:35:31
of Jennifer's insisted that she wasn't the type of person who would um have wanted to have sex outside because
00:35:37
that's ultimately the story that gets told. Oh. And several friends of hers were like, "No, she wouldn't do that."
00:35:42
Like, that's not her vibe at all. That doesn't make sense. And also remember she's like uh like when I was saying
00:35:48
earlier that she didn't want to go to public school. She has a fear of danger and like dangerous situations. Yeah.
00:35:54
She's not reckless. Yeah. So she wouldn't have gone into that park if she didn't feel like she was safe with
00:35:59
Robert. So she she very clearly did. But this wasn't the first time that Robert had brought a girl into the park for a
00:36:06
romantic evening. In fact, a few weeks earlier, he brought another date there and friends said that the park held
00:36:11
special meaning for him. So, it's possible he hoped bringing Jennifer there would be a similarly romantic
00:36:17
experience. Well, it's like that doesn't line up with like how he was acting earlier. Unless that was just like
00:36:24
directly from the girl like throwing a bag of condoms at him. Yeah, maybe. Maybe he was just like thrown off for a
00:36:30
minute. Maybe. I don't know. But he was too. It all sounds weird. The night itself seemed like nobody was really
00:36:36
acting how they typically would have. Yeah. But I feel like that happens when these kind of things happen. Even though
00:36:45
you don't know that like something awful is going to happen, it can be like in the air sometimes. It's just like some
00:36:50
kind of tension happening. Yeah, exactly. So, Robert and Jennifer entered the park around 4 uh 4:50 in the morning
00:36:56
at an entrance near the Metropolitan Museum of Art. What happened next is only known to Robert himself, and he has
00:37:03
changed his story multiple times over the years. Awesome. So, nobody really knows the exact truth, but this uh in my
00:37:10
opinion is not the truth. According to him, he was not interested in Jennifer romantically and initially actually
00:37:16
declined to go to the park with her, but Jennifer insisted, he said. So, he finally relented and agreed to join her.
00:37:23
According to him, she was clearly interested in him and he thought that she wanted to have sex in the park, but
00:37:28
he declined her advances and said he was interested in other people and he'd see
00:37:32
her around. But he said she freaked out. She like got up and knelt in front of me
00:37:37
and scratched my face. What? Like that would have escalated so quickly and she knelt in front of her. He said she got
00:37:45
like she like got up, knelt in front of me and scratched my face, which when you see the scratch
00:37:51
marks on his face later because they are photographed, it wouldn't have been like
00:37:55
she scratched my face like in a cute way or like Yeah. Like like they're deep scratch marks on his face. He said after
00:38:03
that after that happened he got up to leave but that Jennifer apologized and he agreed to stay and keep talking since
00:38:09
she had apologized and despite asking her to sit far away from him he said she came up behind him and started massaging
00:38:16
his shoulders and he said she she said I looked really cute and that I would look
00:38:20
cuter tied up. Okay. According to the statement that he gave police, he didn't think she was
00:38:26
serious until she held his wrist together and using her underwear started to tie them together. Once his hands
00:38:33
were bound, Chambers claimed that Jennifer tried to take off his pants, but she was hurting him in the process.
00:38:39
And he said she quote kind of laughed in a weird way, like more like a cackle or
00:38:44
something. Okay. And then he said that his protest only made her more aggressive and she started scratching
00:38:51
his chest and his face and was quote laughing and giggling and making weird laughing type sounds while digging her
00:38:56
nails into me. This is unbelievable. I I don't believe this. I'm looking at those
00:39:02
scratches on his face right now, too. They look defensive. They absolutely lookive in my opin opinion. In my
00:39:09
opinion. In our opinion. So, Robert claimed that his screams caught the attention of a nearby jogger
00:39:17
who eventually came over to investigate, but the jogger left the area when Jennifer insisted everything was
00:39:24
fine. Okay. Then he claimed he could not take the pain that Jennifer was inflicting on him anymore. So, he
00:39:31
reached up and grabbed her, putting his arm around her neck and pulling hard. He
00:39:36
told detectives it was just really quick. She flipped over and then landed and she was kind of twisted on the
00:39:42
tree. So, you flipped her over into a tree. At that point, she wasn't moving. And Robert thought that she was trying
00:39:50
to frighten him. But when he shook her and got no response, he said he realized she was dead and walked across the park
00:39:56
and found a place to sit on the wall where he could still see her body. From that position, he said he eventually saw
00:40:02
a cyclist enter the park, come upon the body, and then leave and return a short time later with paramedics. Once the
00:40:09
ambulance arrived, Robert himself left the scene, went home, showered, and went to
00:40:16
bed. Okay, three words. In what world? I Yeah, in what? That is a world. That's a no for me. That's a no for me.
00:40:31
That one of the most bizarre stories. That is a very That is bizarre is the perfect way to describe that story.
00:40:38
Bizarre. Uh not one bit of that makes sense. No. Whatsoever. No. You're literally saying that you put your arm
00:40:47
around her neck and like really quick though. You made sure to say really quick. Really quick. Somehow flipped her
00:40:52
into a tree. Yeah. Um, and then she she she just died in the tree. Yeah. Really quick. And you just knew that. That's my
00:41:05
favorite part is I realized she had she was dead. Yeah. Interesting. Like that. I'm sorry if that if if I got into a
00:41:14
little tussle with someone and I they just flipped into a tree, I wouldn't automatically assume that they were
00:41:21
dead. Like that would be I'd be like, "Wow, that was weird. Um, let me help you up." Like that would be and I
00:41:27
wouldn't just be like, "Wow, I bet you're dead." Mhm. And then also like what how did that like he's just like,
00:41:33
"Yeah, I just realized you realized she was dead and then you went and sat on a bench nearby and watched somebody
00:41:40
discover her dead body, leave, go get help. You watched that help arrive and you watched her body be taken away in a
00:41:47
body bag and in an ambulance and then you just went home and showered and went to sleep and at no point did you
00:41:52
intervene and tell them like what happened here was an accident. Like let me just went to sleep. Let me tell you
00:41:59
interesting that you showered. That's a bonkers story. It's crazy. That's a bonkers story. In my opinion does not
00:42:06
line up with the way that her body was found. A very strange story. Yeah. Well, later a detective showed up at Robert
00:42:12
Chambers's apartment to question him, and then they took him to the station for further interrogation where he gave
00:42:18
a videoed statement to police. Wow. Now, let's talk about the crime scene. The crime scene was unfortunately a pretty
00:42:24
familiar one to investigators. A young woman found dead in the park, an apparent victim of sexual assault. Her
00:42:30
body was slumped in front of a tree, her shirt was pushed up, and her bra was wrapped around her neck. What the [ __ ]
00:42:38
At the time, they thought that she had been killed maybe somewhere else and dumped in the park since there were tire
00:42:43
tracks leaving the scene and somebody spotted a car around the same time that the body was discovered, but that would
00:42:48
quickly be dismissed once she was identified. Now, the crime scene didn't yield a lot of
00:42:54
clues or evidence, but there were obvious signs of a struggle. It appeared that she'd been physically assaulted and
00:42:59
hit in the face. According to the medical examiner, the left eye was swollen, discolored, and about just
00:43:05
about closed. On the bridge of the nose, there was a dark mark. Her mouth was caked in dirt and what appeared to be
00:43:12
dried blood. Yeah, those scratches are defensive in my opinion. In my opinion. Yep. One of
00:43:19
Jennifer's front teeth was also loose, and there was a dark red mark around her neck from where her killer had strangled
00:43:25
her with her bra. Wow. None of that. not lining up. None of that aligns with him swiftly flipping
00:43:34
her over into a tree. And how awful. Like that this poor girl's last moments were filled with that. Her front tooth
00:43:43
was loose. That's a violent struggle. A violent struggle. According to the pathologist, the bra had been twisted
00:43:51
around her neck, but it was also still hooked in the back. So there was a possibility that her shirt and bra had
00:43:56
been pushed up and maybe the strangulation was an accident. But there was also like that is what they thought
00:44:02
on a cursory glance. Yeah. But there was particular hemorrhaging in the eyes that
00:44:06
indicating indicating that the blood flow to her brain was restricted which would have been unlikely if it was just
00:44:12
a matter of her bra getting wrapped around. Your bras aren't that tight. It's we've we've said it before. It's
00:44:17
very difficult to strangle someone. It takes a lot a lot of like pressure and time. Consistent pressure. Consistent
00:44:25
pressure and cons. Yeah. Yeah. So, the pathologist said in court later, "I thought the deceased was strangled like
00:44:31
definitively." The murder and Robert's arrest though came as a shock to residents around New York. Not only
00:44:37
because of the brutal facts of the case, but also because of the social status of
00:44:41
the young people involved. Yeah. Jennifer's death shined a light on a social scene that few outside of it knew
00:44:47
existed. Both the victim and her killer were not out of their teens, but the lives that they lived reflected a world
00:44:53
usually populated by adults, like we were saying, complete with problems like addiction and violence. When asked for a
00:44:59
comment about his daughter's death, Steven Leven said, "I have lived in New York City for 19 years, and I have
00:45:04
hesitatingly come to the conclusion that it is no longer a fit place to live. It
00:45:08
is a social experiment that failed." Wow. It's really sad. Damn. On October 28th, Robert Chambers was arraigned on a
00:45:16
charge of seconddegree murder, which is interesting. Yeah. And it was during his
00:45:19
arraignment that his lawyer, Jack Litman, revealed the beginnings of his strategy. In his statement to the court,
00:45:25
Litman explained that Jennifer had been pursuing Robert for several weeks, and quote, "That night, she was the
00:45:32
aggressor." According to Litman, Jennifer's death was simply an accident that occurred when his client was trying
00:45:39
to defend himself against sexual assault by Jennifer Leven. Wow. Yeah. Litman preemptively defended against
00:45:46
accusations of rape by pointing out how popular Robert Chambers was with women. Wow. He said he didn't have to chase
00:45:54
girls, they chased him. Oh, yeah. So, that that clears it up. Yeah. Attractive people aren't rapists, right? No, of
00:45:59
course not. Because everyone wants to have sex with him. Yeah, because he is conventionally according to some people
00:46:06
attractive. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that totally that checks. That's a perfect argument. That's not based on opinion at
00:46:12
all. Yeah, people don't have varying um like attraction attractive. Definitely not. But he said that being the case,
00:46:20
there would have been no reason for his client to pursue Jennifer, much less sexually assault her. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:27
Wow. Yep. The elite status of the defendant and the victim were completely unavoidable
00:46:33
though from the moment Jennifer's body was discovered. And it was an element of the case that the press simply could not
00:46:38
resist. In article after article, young people that made up Jennifer and Robert social groups groups were discussed as
00:46:45
distinctly different from teenagers their age. They made this a zoo. In a New York Times article, one reporter
00:46:51
wrote, "Many of them are under 21 and get past the bartender with skillfully applied makeup and expensive clothing
00:46:57
that makes them look several years older and with elaborately faked identification."
00:47:02
It's like, you're talking about women there. You're not talking about the entire social group, which involves
00:47:08
males as well. But cool. So that's cool. One teenager who went to the city's hottest nightclubs and restaurants said,
00:47:15
"You walk in here, no one's going to challenge you. It's an attitude." So they were very much making this putting
00:47:22
together this picture that these kids were like fast, you know, that that they put themselves in these positions
00:47:31
essentially. Exactly. This is very much a victim blaming strategy. Yes. Of well,
00:47:36
what did you expect? And it's not only coming from the defense, but like the press, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. The
00:47:42
emphasis on the expensive and out of control lives of these, you know, Manhattan's elite teenagers reinforced a
00:47:47
growing class divide too across the city and confirmed what a lot of people outside of that social class believed
00:47:54
that there was one set of rules for rich people and another one for everyone else. So immediately everybody's
00:47:58
polarized too, of course. And that became even more apparent within days of Robert's arrest when he started getting
00:48:04
an outpouring of support from wealthy friends and family and also even influential figures like Archbishop
00:48:11
Theodore Edgar McCerrick of New Jersey who wrote a letter of support in favor for bail.
00:48:18
No comment. That was a mouthful. Yeah. Yeah. Uh there was also a noticeably gendered tone to the ways people talked
00:48:27
about the victim versus the suspect. I'm shocked. When discussing Jennifer, many
00:48:31
reports seem to have taken a tip from Jack Lit Litman. Uh, and rather than focus on the fact that she was straight
00:48:37
up murdered, they discussed her quote sexual aggressiveness. Yeah, that's a cool thing to do when somebody is dead
00:48:43
and can't defend themselves. Also, how do you know? Yeah. How do you know? Well, you don't. And she's dead, so she
00:48:48
can't defend herself. And that's that's the strategy. One instance where one person is saying this about her who's
00:48:54
also the last person that saw her alive. So, like, are we really going to Maybe you should question that a little bit.
00:48:59
Yeah. Okay. But Robert Chambers, on the other hand, was described in very sympathetic terms. Friends and
00:49:04
acquaintances insisted that he was quote not the violent type and were shocked that he had quote found himself in such
00:49:10
a situation. Oh, I love the passive use of found himself. I just found myself sitting across Central Park there. He
00:49:18
just found himself. He just looked around and suddenly I was like, what a nice way to say that. Yeah. One headline
00:49:23
read, "Friends call Robert a reluctant Romeo. Shy with girls." I hate it here. Gross. I hate it here.
00:49:32
Yeah, that is so yucky. Well, and also, which one is it? Is he a reluctant Romeo
00:49:39
or like your defense attorney was just saying that he doesn't have to chase girls? They're all going and now he's a
00:49:44
reluctant Romeo. You can't have it both ways. that that's very much like the um the Brock Turner effect where it's like
00:49:53
um he you know he lost everything. He could have been this kid could have been like an amazing athlete and it's like
00:49:59
I'm sorry are we talking about who are we talking about here? Yeah. Who lost everything? What part victim or
00:50:04
aggressor are we talking about? It's very much talking about it like one this happened to him and he he just
00:50:12
found himself in these circumstances him and his losses and what it's like but what it's like he took it away from
00:50:22
himself in that case one friend from Dorian said we have to fight for Robert's rights there's nothing we can
00:50:28
do for Jennifer now that's an instance of I'm I'm going to I'm going to head out. We think before
00:50:35
we speak from the head out. We listen and we judge. Yeah. I I listened and I am judging harshly. There's nothing you
00:50:44
can do for Jennifer now. Uh I'd say there's actually a lot you can do for Jennifer now. Imagine if everybody
00:50:49
thought Imagine if everybody thought that way. When somebody gets murders, it's just
00:50:53
like, well, nothing we can do now. That's it. Oh, that's nice. Oh, cool. Yeah. Let's just let's just move on.
00:50:59
Sure. That was great for her family. Really? You have to blow by that that literal life that was stopped in its
00:51:04
prime. You can't be there for her family now. No, you got to be there for Oh, you
00:51:08
have to be there for Robert. Yeah, of course. Interesting. I don't think I get it. So, the picture of Robert Chambers
00:51:14
as this gentle giant who would never act violently or hurt anybody was just one aspect of Jack Litman's defense
00:51:21
strategy. Just one day after his arraignment, Litman also told reporters that he was now weighing an insanity
00:51:27
plea. Huh? That's a completely different route, sir. That's interesting. He said,
00:51:32
"It appears that the state of mind of Robert Chambers that led to this tragedy was completely out of character for him,
00:51:38
and therefore an insanity plea is possible." Huh. Okay. I just feel like you're arguing two very different points at the
00:51:47
same time. Yeah, I would say that. Um, and what the press didn't know was that this characterization of Robert as
00:51:52
innocent was completely at odds with the statements that he had given himself to
00:51:57
police. Before giving his statement where he confessed to accidentally causing Jennifer's death, he actually
00:52:02
denied having been there at all, which proves that he knew he was wrong. And he claimed that those scratches on his face
00:52:09
came from his cat. Oh, I have three cats. I have three precious baby cats. First of all,
00:52:18
they've never scratched my face. Secondly, they don't cause that deep of scratches. Like, I know cat scratches
00:52:25
can be deep, but he has scratches all over his face. Yeah. I I mean, if you look at the scratches, I'm I I wasn't
00:52:33
there, so I can't tell you if a cat made those or not, but I would be shocked if
00:52:37
a cat made those. Yeah, same. I can tell you that. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well,
00:52:42
later he deviated from that story and said, "Yeah, it was Jennifer." But it was like
00:52:47
a It's just so So he even later is like, "No, it actually was her." Yeah. Like when I The first story like the the
00:52:55
chronologically the first story I told. Yeah. But after later Okay. He changed his story a million times. So I just I
00:53:02
said one of them. That's even wilder that like where he's he moved like from the cat to like actually know it was
00:53:11
her. Yeah. Yeah. Like you were really going to try to lie about that. Oh yeah. He Well, he was going to say he wasn't
00:53:16
even there. And then he was like, "Actually, I was." And I watched the entire aftermath play out as well. Like,
00:53:23
damn. Those are two very different things. Yeah, they they sure are. That's a theme in this case. Yeah. But a month
00:53:29
later, in late September, Robert Chambers did plead not guilty to one charge of seconddegree murder and one
00:53:34
charge of murder under circumstances uh evincing a depraved indifference to human life. In his statement to the
00:53:41
press, Manhattan District Attorney Robert, I think it's Morgan thou told reporters, "We believe that either one
00:53:47
or both of these occurred and that the autopsy showed, quote, "A substantial amount of pressure had been applied to
00:53:52
Jennifer's neck, which justified the charges." Wow. On October 1st, 1986, Robert Chambers was finally released
00:54:00
from jail on $150,000 bond, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And that was on the condition that
00:54:07
he report daily to Monsier Thomas Leonard, a former teacher at the Church of the Incarceration.
00:54:15
No, incarnation. Is it like Monsign or Mons? Monsior. Monsior. There it is. Um, but it was during this time that the
00:54:24
district attorney announced that Robert Chambers was also under investigation for several burglaries that had occurred
00:54:31
around the city and that charges would also be added in the near future for those or could be at the very least.
00:54:38
There were a lot of delays in bringing the case to court, but finally in January of 1988, Robert Chambers finally
00:54:45
went to trial for the murder of Jennifer Leven. In the time between the discovery
00:54:49
of the body and the trial, a ton of information and misinformation had been spread through the media, which
00:54:55
unfortunately very much worked to the benefit of the defense, for sure. Since he'd confessed to having played a role
00:55:01
in Jennifer's death, though, it was obviously impossible for him to deny that he had killed her. Yeah. So
00:55:06
instead, Jack Litman's strategy was to obscure various facts about the case in the courtroom and convince the jury that
00:55:13
Jennifer's death was the result of his client defending himself against an assault on Jennifer's part. Huh. Which
00:55:21
is just bonkers. That's truly bonkers. And just like really [ __ ] up. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. In the courtroom, the jury
00:55:29
witnessed the entire videotaped confession that Robert made to the police the day he was arrested. But the
00:55:34
problem was it was clear that the evidence discovered during the investigation didn't support his claims
00:55:39
entirely. For instance, the position of Jennifer's body found when she was discovered, the dirt coverage, the
00:55:46
extent of her injuries, they were all inconsistent with Robert's claim that he had wrapped his arm around her throat in
00:55:52
order to move her off of him. Yeah. Like again, consistent pressure had been applied to her neck. Oh, yeah. It wasn't
00:55:59
a quick move. No, it was definitely not that quick like oops. No. Yeah. In order
00:56:03
to defend against the obvious inconsistencies though, Jack Litman told the jury the tape was the unvarnished
00:56:08
truth, but that it contained a number of obvious silly lies that one could expect
00:56:13
from a scared teenager. Just deducing his client to a scared teenager. Yeah. The prosecutor, Linder,
00:56:20
Linda Fstein, on the other hand, explained that the facts made Robert Chambers account of assault almost
00:56:26
entirely impossible. She pointed out that if the death was an accident and like I said earlier, why didn't he just
00:56:32
go for help? Yeah, that's the thing for help. Years later, when she uh she was asked about the case, she returned to
00:56:39
that point on the Today Show in 2016. She said he sat on the wall behind the Metropolitan Museum and watched as her
00:56:45
body was found and as her body was taken away from the park in a body bag and he
00:56:50
never went over to the police and said, "This is my friend. This was an accident. I know who she is."
00:56:55
It's like they were like they had a history together. They very much knew each other. They were friendly of course
00:57:02
to just watch and know that whatever the circumstances were, you caused that death and he was watching. He's a um
00:57:11
he's a white man, a rich well I shouldn't say rich, but he is a he was wealthy and he's socially in a higher
00:57:19
echelon white man. Yep. You could have said, you know what I mean? like you're you're you're not in a position where
00:57:26
it's scary for you to to say that an accident happened. You know what I mean? Where some other people it may be yeah
00:57:33
like marginalized genuinely scary to say it because you're just not going to be believed or immediately. It's like you
00:57:39
are the one of the only people, you know, one of the only kinds of people that can say that was an accident. You
00:57:46
will at the very least be considered to be believable. No, you're so right. That's a really valid point. like the
00:57:53
the innocent until proven guilty. It's like that's really only the case for certain people. Yep. And he happens to
00:57:59
be and he happens to be part of that that kind of people, you know? So, it's like the whole like I'm like, so why
00:58:06
didn't you, you know, like you really like that's weird. It's weird. This and again, this
00:58:13
isn't even like a this isn't even like a stranger, which would that would be weird enough. This is somebody like you
00:58:19
genuinely know, cared about, spent a lot of time with. Many Yeah. Many instances
00:58:24
dated. Yeah. Like why wouldn't I don't know. It's just very strange to me. It's It's a very removed position to be in.
00:58:30
It It feels that way. Yeah. Well, the trial dragged on for 13 weeks and during that 13 weeks, very intimate details of
00:58:39
Jennifer's life and sexual experiences were put on display, which really sucked, which is ridiculous. And that
00:58:45
was obviously primarily by the defense in order to portray Robert as the innocent victim in some terrible
00:58:50
tragedy. Yeah. And by obscuring the facts of the case and painting a picture of Jennifer Levven as sexually
00:58:55
aggressive and assertive, Litman hoped that he could convince at least a few jurors cuz that's all you need. That
00:59:01
Jennifer's death truly was an accident, that she had attacked Robert, forced him
00:59:06
to have rough sex, and he was just protecting himself. Ellen Leven, Jennifer's mother, said later when it
00:59:14
happened, how she was being portrayed, how it suddenly became her fault. He was blatantly playing the victim. Yeah. I
00:59:20
can't imagine having to stand by and that it became her fault. Like that's wild. It made it It's like she's on
00:59:28
trial all of a sudden. In the end though, the defense's strategy worked. The jury deliberated for 9 days before
00:59:34
reporting to the judge that they were hopelessly deadlocked. There was only four jurors convinced of Robert Chambers
00:59:41
guilt and the rest were in favor of an acquitt. Wow. Yeah, that's really shocking. Like it is. Ellen Leven said,
00:59:50
"I can't imagine that there was someone on that jury that thought he was a cleancut young man who would never do
00:59:54
anything like this." Damn. In their note to the judge, the foreman indicated that
00:59:59
there was actually three jurors who quote could not go on because of the mental and emotional strain. And another
01:00:05
juror indicated that quote votes in the jury room had swayed violently back and forth. So at least there was like they
01:00:11
were very clearly considering there was some like passion behind you know Yeah. They were considering both sides. Yeah.
01:00:19
But ultimately came to a very interesting decision. Yeah. So whatever the case, the deadlock jury is usually
01:00:26
always and was in this case a bad sign for the prosecution. They weren't hopeful that a retrial would produce a
01:00:32
different outcome. So, in late March of 1988, they offered Robert a plea deal. Wow. He would plead guilty to one charge
01:00:39
of first-degree manslaughter in an exchange for a sentence of 5 to 15 years in prison. Wow. Just like nothing. But
01:00:46
he had no better option. So, he accepted the deal. And before accepting the plea
01:00:51
agreement, the judge asked Robert Chambers whether he quote intended to cause serious physical injury to
01:00:56
Jennifer Leaven on the morning of her death. And in response, Chamber said, "Looking back on everything, I'd have to
01:01:02
say yes." But he insisted that quote, "In his heart, he still had not intended to injure in injure Miss Leven
01:01:08
physically." Huh. So, he said yes, but no. Yeah, but no. Yeah. Like, what? But not really.
01:01:16
Looking back, I'd have to say yes, but like not in my heart. But not in my heart. Like, okay. Well, that doesn't
01:01:21
really help us here. That doesn't make any sense to me. How about in reality? It was revealed in a press conference
01:01:26
later that day that Robert Chambers statement was a prerequisite of the agreement. Of course, a spokesperson for
01:01:32
the Levven family said one of the big things was hearing him say that he had intent. Still, the plea was a
01:01:38
disappointment to the rest of the family who not only lost a daughter, but also had to watch as she was slandered during
01:01:43
the trial. Her grandfather, Arnold Dominitz, I believe, said, "I can sum up my feelings in eight words. Robert
01:01:50
Chambers has literally gotten away with murder." Wow. Yeah. As far as the family
01:01:56
was concerned, the inability to secure a murder conviction was the result of Jack
01:02:00
Litman's strategy. It absolutely was. Yeah. Her grandfather said Litman predictably tried his case in the press
01:02:06
in which he uh aimed to malign and character assassinate the victim, reaching the depth of degradation by
01:02:12
terming a young girl's simple date book as a sex diary. That's a I understand again that this is like a
01:02:21
job. I understand the whole thing. But like that tactic to me it's shitty is like dirty pool. Like that is
01:02:32
just I don't know like I don't see the integrity in that as a strategy. I just don't if you can if your case is strong
01:02:41
you shouldn't have to malign um somebody who's dead's dating history. Yeah I completely. You know you shouldn't have
01:02:48
to. And like to do that I don't this is just me personally. I think it's yucky. I do too. Um because again there's if he
01:02:56
can win the case, win the case. There's a lot of routes to go down. Yeah. And he
01:02:59
himself clearly he had two routes that he could have gone down when he picked one. I just think it's yucky. And
01:03:06
especially when somebody can't be there to defend themselves. Exactly. Like I don't I don't know. And when that person
01:03:12
was murdered. Yeah. No matter what that person was murdered. Exactly. That's the
01:03:17
thing. It's [ __ ] up. And it's [ __ ] up to do to the family. It puts the family through a whole other layer of
01:03:23
trauma. And no one's private life like that should be splashed around for their family to hear. No. When they've been
01:03:32
murdered, right? They have had the ultimate injustice done to them and now you're adding on to it. Yeah. It's
01:03:38
insult to injury. Like I I don't know. Like that just like having I don't know. I don't get it. I think it's I I
01:03:45
understand it's a tactic. I understand that defense attorneys have to do things, but like of course and I
01:03:51
understand it's a job and it's a valid job and all that [ __ ] Don't worry about
01:03:54
it. But that particular tactic just doesn't do it for me. I don't get it. I just think if you can win your case, win
01:04:01
it some other way. Agreed. Agreed. If it's a good case, you'll win it some other way. Agreed. Completely without
01:04:05
having to make like [ __ ] shame a dead girl. Yeah. Well, in April, Robert Chambers went before the judge for
01:04:12
sentencing. And when asked whether he had anything to say, he told the judge to Jennifer, "Nothing I can do or say
01:04:17
will ever bring her back, and I'm sorry. The 11 family has gone through hell because of my actions, and I am sorry.
01:04:23
For 2 years, I've not been able to say I'm sorry, and I wish to have my feelings known." The judge sentenced
01:04:29
Robert Chambers to 15 years in prison for manslaughter with a minimum of 5 years and another sentence of 15 years
01:04:36
for those burglary charges with those sentences to run concurrently. Damn. Yeah. So I the judge was like, "I got
01:04:43
you for that." Yeah. He was like, "Okay." Robert Chambers started his sentence at the uh Shawagong, I think is
01:04:50
how you say it, correctional facility in Olter County, New York. And it didn't take long, unfortunately, before his
01:04:56
addiction issues returned. When he came up for parole in 1993 and 1994, the parole board flat out rejected his bid
01:05:04
for parole. And they cited unsatisfactory behavior in prison, including his involvement with drugs.
01:05:10
Wow. Cuz people say all the time there's more on the inside than there even is on
01:05:13
the outside. Yeah. Which is wild to think about. Yeah. Two years later after being transferred to Green Haven Prison,
01:05:20
Chambers was again denied parole due to quote the nature of his offense and poor
01:05:25
disciplinary record. Oh, so he was not doing well. Damn. After repeatedly being denied parole, Robert Chambers gave an
01:05:32
interview to the press where he described himself as a political pawn and a victim of a state administration
01:05:37
that was determined to keep him in prison. just like, "No, I think if you just like maybe tried good behavior, it
01:05:43
could work out for you." Yeah. It's like, "I don't I don't know about that." Yeah. But he wasn't about that life. No,
01:05:47
not about that. In 1997, he told the parole board, "To be honest with you, I wasn't even going to come in today. I'm
01:05:52
at a point where I'd rather just have you tell me, listen, you're going to max out in 2003." Whoa. Like, why did you
01:05:58
go? Whoa. As it turned out, he was right. He was never granted parole. And he was released in February 2003 after
01:06:04
having served his entire full sentence. I I mean um in part I'm sure not not at all from that attitude that he came in
01:06:12
with. Oh, cuz if I'm on the parole board and you say that [ __ ] I Yeah, I'm going
01:06:16
to be like you're sitting there. Cool. That's bas consider that a request that I am now granting. That's wild. But his
01:06:23
release was obviously unwelcome news to Ellen Leven. She said, "My concern is that from the minute he gets out of
01:06:29
prison, he will be treated like a celebrity." In his own statement, Robert Chambers expressed his regret and again
01:06:34
apologized to the Levven family. He said, "There's not been a day since Jennifer's death that I have not
01:06:39
regretted my actions on that day. I know that the Levven family continues to suffer her loss, and I am deeply sorry
01:06:44
for the grief that I have caused them." Wow. Yeah. I mean, I mean, nothing you could say can bring someone
01:06:53
back. I was going to say nothing you can say can bring someone back. And that is
01:06:56
just a that case is like what happened that night is so brutal. Yeah. And it's like
01:07:06
I don't I don't understand how you reconcile that later. I just don't I like I don't understand what happened
01:07:14
that night and I don't think we ever I don't understand this. There's too many stories and I don't believe any of them.
01:07:20
Yeah. I have an idea. I have my own idea obviously that I'm not going to share because I we don't need to get into like
01:07:26
opinions here. But yeah, but who knows cuz you know people you know people are walking around here. We don't need to
01:07:32
insert our Well, as it turned out, Robert's freedom was to be shortlived then. Oh. Oh no. In People are walking
01:07:38
around though. In 2005, just 2 years after his release from prison, he was sent back after pleading guilty to
01:07:44
possession of heroin. He was released in 2008 only to be arrested yet again. this
01:07:49
time for purchasing 246 grams of cocaine from an undercover police officer. Yikes. Yikes.
01:07:59
Oh no. Have not been learned. You always wonder how that hits someone when they're like, "Hey, by the way, you're
01:08:05
under arrest after selling you 246 g of cocaine." That's got to That's a bad day. That's a lot of cocaine,
01:08:13
dude. A bad day. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, after initially intending to go to trial, which I'm like, what were we
01:08:23
what? But Robert and his lawyer, they changed their minds, and they accepted a plea deal from the prosecution where he
01:08:30
pleaded guilty in exchange for a sentence of 19 years and 4 months in prison with 5 years probation to follow.
01:08:37
Awesome. And on July 25th, 2023, Robert Chambers was again released from prison after serving 15 years of his 19-year
01:08:45
sentence. And he continues to claim that Jennifer's death was accidental and the
01:08:50
result of him trying to defend himself during quote unquote rough sex. Wow. Which I disagree with that. I I
01:08:59
have my own thoughts about that, but um Okay. Wow. That is something. That's an unsettling one on a
01:09:11
different level. It is because like I it kills me that like we will not know what happened. Yeah. And it it's
01:09:20
really awful for her family. That's what kills me is like for her family to not have any real idea of what happened that
01:09:27
night except that she was brutally murdered. Yeah. And they know the details. They sat through the trial and
01:09:32
we always say your mind fills in those blank spaces and it's probably worse than anything that could ever even
01:09:38
occur. That's what's that's what I feel so bad about is like and she was so young. Yeah. She was really young. She
01:09:45
was just about to leave the city. Like this was her last night out on the town like that. It's just really sad. It's
01:09:50
really sad that somebody who was working on their future was taken away by somebody who was very much not. That's
01:09:57
the thing. I'm like are you like you're not doing the work here. That's the thing. Like
01:10:04
I know it's not that simple like as far as addiction goes. I'm not going to claim to know that. Put the work in, you
01:10:10
know, do especially but [ __ ] all those years you have to yourself in prison to
01:10:15
work on things. Well, and like he like one thing you can say is like he was just he's an entitled he was an entitled
01:10:23
guy. He was an entitled teenager. He was an entitled or young adult friend said that like that's the thing. And it's
01:10:30
like, and whatever happened that night, something awful happened to her. And whether it was an accident or not, it
01:10:38
was brutal as [ __ ] And I just can't see. I mean, remember like one of her eyes
01:10:45
was swollen. She had blood on her nose. Her tooth was loose. She had dirt and blood
01:10:52
cake to the side of her mouth. Her bra was pulled up around her neck. like this doesn't like you're going to have to
01:10:58
explain to me more like how like I don't get it. I don't understand it. My brain
01:11:04
is not is not putting this onto that side of the but at the end of the day it's on the books says manslaughter.
01:11:11
It's manslaughter. Wow. Which must just if I can't imagine somebody doing that to my family member and having to sit
01:11:20
with that. That's the thing. Like just and then to watch that person get out of prison time and time again. Well, that's
01:11:26
that's the worst part is just watching someone be able to go live their life. Yeah. And then also on like such a silly
01:11:34
note, having him be named the preppy killer. Well, that's the other thing. Come on. It's like when you said that
01:11:40
name, I was like, "What?" Yeah. Like you got to be [ __ ] me. And weirdly, I I didn't know this case. I didn't know it
01:11:46
either, actually. It was a Dave suggestion. Yeah, that that was a that was strange. But I I hate when they give
01:11:52
those kind of nicknames like the preppy killer. Like that's it's very tasteless.
01:11:56
It is. But cuz it also that's also a way of um taking away some of the sting of the reality of it. He's just this
01:12:05
preppy. He just loves vineyard society guy, you know. Totally. Just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hate
01:12:11
that a lot. I do too. Hate that a lot. Hate it. And I feel really bad for Jennifer and really bad for those who
01:12:17
care about her. I know. I agree. I hope I hope they feel like they got some kind
01:12:23
of justice at some point. But I hope so. But it's a little upsetting. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. Damn. But yeah,
01:12:30
that was quite an interesting case to say the least. Very interesting and really sad. Yeah. And we will be back
01:12:37
next episode, I think, with uh Listener Tales. So, it'll be a nice little Yes. uh palette cleanser. Nice little palette
01:12:45
cleanser if you will. Oh, and this is this is the end of the episode, so hopefully you're still here. Um if you
01:12:51
are seeing on Spotify, we're just going to start opening episodes with this and possibly closing with this as well.
01:12:57
Honestly, if you are seeing a bonus episode designation on Spotify, we don't have bonus episodes. We don't have
01:13:06
anything behind a payw wall like a bonus episode or anything like that. That's a
01:13:10
Spotify issue. Yeah, they did something like an update with their system or something like that. We have been
01:13:17
begging to get that like removed, but it's like across the board, I guess, like an update that happened and they
01:13:23
have yet to be able to remove it. We don't have any bonus episodes behind a payw wall. Nothing like that. What you
01:13:32
are seeing as quote unquote bonus episodes that look like they're locked, I think it shows you like that locked or
01:13:38
something like that. What those are is they're showing our Wondery Plus week early episodes as bonus episodes behind
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a payw wall, which is not what they are. It's a very misleading thing. It's very
01:13:52
frustrating. We understand why that would be like, what the [ __ ] Like, where are these bonus episodes and why
01:13:58
are they behind a pay wall? Just know that like podcasts I listen to have the same thing going on. Yeah, it's it's
01:14:04
across the board. It's not just our podcast. You got to scroll a little bit, find the available one or listen on a
01:14:10
different platform. Yeah. You don't if you wherever you you know this is I think this is a Spotify issue like only.
01:14:16
So if you go to other platforms you're not going to like I listen on Spotify too. So I'm not like [ __ ] on
01:14:22
Spotify. No. So like um but if it bothers you to see that the fake bonus episode that doesn't exist, like you can
01:14:28
go somewhere else to listen to it. Go tell them because of it. Yeah. let them know that
01:14:34
it's like really misleading because like we want it taken down as well because it's we have been getting a lot of
01:14:40
feedback that yes you guys think that we're like putting bonus episodes behind a payw wall and I promise you we're not.
01:14:47
We will never do that. We're never going to put bonus episodes behind a payw wall. No. Like it's just not something
01:14:53
we're going to do where it like shows up in your feed as like oh you want to listen to this go pay money because it's
01:15:00
not in our real feed. like we're not going to do that. Um that's not the the vibe. So I promise you we'll we'll
01:15:07
reiterate this at the end beginning of the next few episodes too, just cuz I want everybody to know that like yeah,
01:15:13
it's not it's not a bonus episode behind a pay wall. It's not. Promise. So yeah,
01:15:19
with all that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But not that you think that we do
01:15:26
bonus episodes because we don't even do bonus episodes. Those are not even locked by a bonus episode would be free
01:15:33
like Tobias's Toby. [Music] [Music] [Music]